[DECK] Welderstone Survival

[GGoober]

Background
I have been working on this deck for almost 1-2 months. It began with the traditional GRu Welder Survival list which played both Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge (TfK). The problems with the old list is that it is too dependent on Welder, which was the point of the deck. I tweaked the old traditional list to include enough blue count for Force of Will to give the deck with some resiliency in setting up the Welder combo but FOW was too clunky with a low blow count. I'm still worrying about the lack of counterspell in such a fragile deck. I've been tweaking Next-Level Painter in the meantime and through that process, I found an answer, a possible solution to diversify the Welder Survival's win-conditions without detracting too much into the danger-of-cool things.

I wanted a deck that incorporated Welder activation at instant speed (only possible in Welder Survival with Anger. Legacy Control Slaver has the problem that Welder suffers from a lack of haste, making the deck fragile without countermagic). Looking at some of the Imperial Painter lists that utilized Welder for recursion and advantage to win (e.g.
Activate Grindstone, in response sac Grindstone and weld in Painter to win, or in response to StP on Painter, weld another Painter etc. Welder gives Painterstone combo more resiliency if a piece is countered or destroyed (barring StP/Extirpate effects).

Problems with Survival decks in general is that they are fragile without Survival. That was the main weakness of Welder Survival. Without Survival, it had to resolve TfK to set up the engine, and risk losing Welder altogether before you can activate him. Good Survival decks in the current meta (Elf Survival, Bant Survival, RGBSA) all function decently without Survival in play. Welder Survival perhaps functions the worst without Survival in play. This was the main motivation towards engineering Welderstone Survival. Outside of the Survival gameplan, I can utilizie Painter's Servant and REBs to control the early game, or sometimes win randomly with Painterstone combo. The Tarmogoyfs add to an additional win-condition and with Survival out, you can swing in with multiple hasty goyfs.

This deck still has problems against decks with answers to Survival, but it has become a whole lot less-dependent on it. Survival definitely speeds up the deck and lock in this deck, but it is not required at all. Without Survival, I can still piece up Painterstone, Painterblasts or beat with Goyfs, or set up Welder engine with TfK, but with Survival, I can tutor up Painter/Trinket Mage to fetch up Painterstone combo, or tutor up Jaya with Quirion Ranger to set up permanent REB effects, or tutor up Welder engines to lock the game down in my favor, or just beat with multiple Goyfs. I hope that in reading this thread, you guys understand that this is ultimately a Survival deck, and hence it's reliance on Survival. I have merely tried a deckshell that decreases its reliancy on Survival to function, but if Survival is resolved, the deck plays all the brokenness of Survival.

Without any more talk, here's my latest creation

UPDATED LIST:


DECKLIST: WELDERSTONE SURVIVAL
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rofellos
4 Painter's Servant
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Jaya
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grindstone
4 Survival of the Fittest

SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
5 REBs
2 Krosan Grip
1 Heap Doll
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle




DECKLIST: WELDERSTONE SURVIVAL (old list)
Lands: 20
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Tree of Tales
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures: 21
3 Goblin Welder
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
1 Rofellos
1 Trinket Mage
1 Jaya, Mage Ballard
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Master Transmuter
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant

Instants: 10
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
4 Thirst for Knowledge


Artifacts/Enchantments: 9
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Chrome Mox
2 Grindstone


SB:
2 Trygon Predator
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Red Elemental blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Firespout



You can play the deck in multiple directions:

- Set up Painter to protect your future plans with blasts.
- Set up Survival to piece up either Painter or Welder combos/locks.
- Play Goyf and stall a little.

I would say this deck plays more like Painter than Survival since the 6 MDed REB effects add to more resiliency in resolving your future spells.
The list is pretty self-explanatory but there are some card choices that may raise questions:


1) No Birds/Elves?
This deck does not run Birds/Elves. It runs 3-4 Chrome Mox which synergizes with Welder. 21 creatures is plenty for a deck that isn't bent on abusing Survival to the fullest (it uses Survival as an advantage engine, not the main engine).

Quirion Ranger:
Quirion Ranger is there to save against Waste-effects, but it allows you to play with less lands, and more crucially, it untaps:
- Welder
- Jaya
- Master Transmuter
- Rofellos
therefore allowing for more options and tricks against StP or Wrath effects.


Rofellos:
- Since the deck does not run birds, Rofellos is needed to generate mana. With Rofellos, you can now play out Duplicant and even Sundering Titan without Welder. More importantly, Rofellos is important in chaining hasty Goyfs to beat for the win.


Trinket Mage:
- In situations where you have Painter and need to win with Grindstone, Trinket Mage can fetch this up. I put 1 in the MD since he also allows me to fetch SB options (Needle/EE/Crypt) if needed with Survival out. He is probably the weakest slot in the deck.


No EWitness?
- Once again, this deck doesn't need Survival, and hence there's no incentive to return Witness. Your other targets are mostly important creatures, which die to StP in Legacy, so witness can't bring them back. I play her in the SB against relevant decks, but she is weak in the MD.


Jaya:
- With Painter out, you can do what Imperial Recruiter does by tutoring her out, but instead, with just one green mana. Jaya locks the game out with Painter in play, and unlike Imperial Recruiter, you can actually start discarding Squee every turn to abuse her even more.


Master Transmuter:
- I'm a huge fan of this blond chick and really want to find a deck for her in Legacy. It just sucks she's 4cc. In this deck, it's more feasible to power her out with either Rofellos/Welder. If she's in play, your engines become more deadly. Painters are now immune to StP as you can vial out/in the Painter that's targeted in response. If you have either Duplicant/Sundering Titan out, you can via them out and in to abuse their CiP effect. It's a win-more strategy, but nevertheless one of those Survival Advantage locks. In traditional RGBSA, you rely on Shriekmaw/Rofellos/Genesis to lock your opponents, but in this build, you rely on Transmuter or Welder + Duplicant/Titan to destroy your opponents. Master Transmuter with haste is a pretty deadly thing, and with Quirion Ranger, you can do multiple tasks that result in your opponents making the bad decisions. If you have Survival in play, your options are diversified as you can tutor up your targets to vial in with her.


Thirst for Knowledge
- I'll be frank on this one. I just like this card. It's probably not suited in this deck, and can be better as something else, e.g. Birds. I do love the draw power of the card and in Chrome Mox builds, a 2nd turn TfK is really nice. I do feel that this is the most out of place card in the deck since the deck isn't too focused on the Welder combo. (Master Transmuter allows you to play out the dudes from your hand, where in regular Welder Survival, you are reliant on the dudes in your yard and without Survival, those dudes will never be in the yard. With Master Transmuter, you can now bring them in without worrying about discarding them for Welder activations).

2 Grindstones:
I think I need to up this to 3 and cut the Trinket Mage. Currently, I only own 2, so I'm playing a suboptimal list.


Other possible MD cards that should be there depending on the meta:

Trygon Predator: I think I'll end up cutting a Trinket Mage for him.
Magus of the Moon: Great card once again.






Matchups: (To be followed up after this weekend's testing with my Legacy group.)

- Against Thresh/Countertop/NLU: you should have a 50/50 or 55/45 matchup at best preboard. MD REBs are big against them. You dudes other than Goyfs are small so Thresh might clock against you while disrupting you with countermagic. This matchup should be focused on setting up Survival and Painters so bait with Welder. Sticking a Goyf means stalling for a few turns. Use REBs only to protect Survival, after which you should own from there. Welders also add another out to countered spells and bringing them back into play uncounterable. Try to win with Goyf beats (preferbly chained via Survival) or win with Painterstone combo. Tempo Thresh is the worst matchup and Canadian Thresh probably has this deck 60/40 at worse in their favor.

SB bring in Shushers and Trygons against Countertop and pack in the 4th REB and Pyroblasts.


Against Landstill
This is a tough and easy matchup depending on whether they have answers to Survival. Bait with Goyfs/Painter. Welder does better against Landstill since you dodge countermagic and try to set up Sundering Titan asap via Transmuter or Welder. Your REBs MD are good here once again.

Matchup should be more favorable than Thresh since there're no Dazes to play against. REBs will counter every blue spell they have and Wrath doesn't stop you if you have Survival out protected.


Eva/Deadguy:
These matchups are considerably harder. Discard isn't too painful unless you're cut on lands. Survival is mana hungry, and so is this deck. They have a fast clock, so you need to try to hit your landdrops consistently. This is where Quirion Ranger shines, so tutor her up whenever possible since it nullifies almost all of their Land destruction spells.


Stax:
Preboard it's doable if you get Painter out. You have to answer Chalice@1, but with Painter out and if you can, fetch Jaya and things get smooth. Post-board get in the Grips/Trygons. Play with their smokestacks and use Welder to your advantage.

Enchantress:
A little tough if they get Confinement, in which you need Grips. If they get both Confinement and Sterling Grove, you're probably locked out. Since their clock is somewhat slow, in that situation, set up Sundering Titan and Transmuter and start destroying their lands and run them out of cards if possible.



Zoo:
- Bad matchup. Burn is bad for you. They have a fast clock too. Try to resolve Goyf and block if able. Post board get in the Firespouts to help a little. If you can stick Painter, then it's good but chances Painter's getting fried and sent farming. You should try to win via Painterstone combo since you cannot match their clock.



Current thoughts and ways to tweak the deck:
+1 Grindstone, +3 BoP, +1 Trygon Predator,
-4 TfK, -1 Trinket Mage.




Any thoughts and criticism will be well-appreciated. I think this is probably the more viable Welder Survival build since like Bant Survival and Elf Survival, it can function better without a Survival in play.

[sco0ter]

Wow, what a great approch to this archetype. I am really suprised, someone came up with another (kind of) Welder Survival list.
I think I am currently there where you were about 1 month ago, namely trying to fit Force of Will into the GRu Welder Survival.
Yes, it is really hard, I am up to 18 blue cards. It works, but removing e.g. Thirst for Knowledge and other cards for Mox doesn't help your plan either. So I am undecided here, and try Cabal Therapy for now (GRub).

Talking about the alternative win condition in your list (Grindstone), did you test other plans? I mean in other Welder Survival threads we talked a lot about other win plans. Finn believed, the only or best approch would be the aggro path with e.g. Wild Nacatl, since it would strengthen the aggro-control and control matchup.
Do you have any opinion, if your approch might be better?

What I like is the Jaya + Painter interaction and the synergies between most cards.
What I don't like is the missing power of Triskelion or Nullstone Gargoyle in many matchups. I think I'd replace "the blond chick" with one of them.
Also, 6 red blast effects seem like a lot and often dead, since they are too dependent on Painter.

Keep the work going!

[MTG-Fan]

How is this better than Welder in a traditional UR Control Slaver shell which at least gives you access to counterspells?

[sco0ter]

normal Welder Survival is already better than Control Slaver imo.
Threats (Grindstone) are usually better than answers (counterspells).

EDIT:

Ok, I played exactly your list for like 4-5 games. But somehow I don't really like it, as I thought I would.
I missed Shield Sphere sometimes, but too often, that I'd include it.
Academy Ruins ruins (;-)) your mana base, I never needed its ability. Volcanics aren't that good either.
Somehow the deck tries too many things. I mean, if you have the blasts or Grindstone, you don't have the painter. If you have the Painter, he is justing sitting there and paints all things blue, but you don't have the blasts. And if you have a blast, it feels like you paid 2R and 2 cards to destroy something, because the Painter again does nothing after the blast.
And going for the Grindstone kill via Survival => Trinket Mage => Grindstone is soo slow, that I'd rather go Sundering Titan and with it.

Well, all in all, I feel there is no focus and too few card selection.

[GGoober]

I tested it up and have the same feeling too scooter. I'm tweaking the lists a little. The deck should play more like Imperial Painter with Survival replacing Imperial Servant. Agreed on the Ruins. It's terrible.

The problem with Control Slaver is that most of the time, the more I play the deck, the more I feel that Welder isn't needed, and the more the lists find redundancy in Mindslaver and the more it becomes a regular control deck that shifts towards MUC or Landstill.

This is just a new idea that I've thought about. Trinket Mage was there hypothetically, but after testing, I agree it's too slow. Welder Survival sets up some locks that this deck can do as well. Like my suggestion above, I'm dropping the Trinket Mage. Master Transmuter is good in my testing at least. At the very least, I've been able to do:

save many targets (e.g. plat angel in play) by discarding transmuter and welding Transmuter in with Welder and vialing out/in plat angel again. It allows for many combat tricks actually, and even if Transmuter dies (barring StP effect), you can always weld her back in to do more stuff. She's good as a 1-copy.

My original Welderstone list had 4 Brainstorm, but I was so cut on space. I can probably drop down to 4 REB instead of 6. That should be the right direction I hope.

[MEATROCKET]

I'd make room for Sharuum. Welding in Sharuum and having her put Sundering Titan in play should win the game. Not many decks can answer 12 damage a turn + a one-sided Armageddon.

[sco0ter]

Sharuum is usually not needed. If you want to have the same effect, Quirion Ranger does the same most of the time.

[MEATROCKET]

Sharuum completely streamlines the idea of winning with Sundering Titan, which I think is better than winning with Painter. All you need is Sharuum and Titan in the yard, which is easy because of Survival. I would probably do Sharuum+Titan instead of Painter and Grindstone if only because it's cheaper (mana-wise - no activation of the stone).

It also makes the deck feel like it's avoiding the Danger of Cool Things with cute tricks with Ranger, etc. It's a game-breaking single activation of Welder. I'd rather win with as little effort as possible once I've assembled a favorable board position (which is pretty difficult if you're relying on resolving/activating Survival, sticking a Ranger and Welder, and activating both).

I know the thread is named Welderstone Survival, but I don't think Welder Survival needs Painter at all.

[sco0ter]

It also makes the deck feel like it's avoiding the Danger of Cool Things with cute tricks with Ranger, etc.


I'd rather put Sharuum in the category of Danger of cool things.

1. Sharrum is only good when you have Survival running.
2. You can't hardcast it.
3. It doesn't fullfil other roles like Quirion Ranger does (making mana with Birds, nullifies Wasteland and Sinkhole and other LD)
4. Qurion Ranger instead allows for 2 Welder activations in your turn and another one in the opponents turn. Swapping Titan or Duplicant this way is already pretty insane.

Maybe it works with Intuition if the control player has to chose if he rather has his lands destroyed or facing Sharuum and another beater (like Nullstone Gargoyle or Triskelion).
Usually Intuition + Welder would end up with Sharuum and the second best creature from the pile or the best creature from the pile.

But if you don't play Intuition, you should win without it (but with Survival) easily.

The problem is, that there are many competitors for a slot e.g. Platinum Angel wins more games against decks like Elves, Affinity, Ichorid than Sharrum would.
Or Inkwell Levithan would probably win more games against control, than Sharuum.



I know the thread is named Welderstone Survival, but I don't think Welder Survival needs Painter at all.

After some testing I aggree on this.

[MEATROCKET]

I'd rather put Sharuum in the category of Danger of cool things.

Of course, and I didn't really mean to imply that she isn't. But my point is that if you are going to try cool things (such as Ranger + Welder or Painter + Grindstone) that Sharuum + Titan is, imo, the least dangerous of the Cool options.

[sco0ter]

Ranger is no danger ^^

As I said he helps on so many sides:
- Untap Birds for more mana
- Protect lands
- He acts like a land if you don't draw further ones
- Gives one creature vigilance (useful, if you're playing the defensive role, but still want to attack with your fatties)
- Allows for 2 Welder activations (or even 3 if you count the opponent's turn)
- Hardcastable

He is not just a gimmick. He is more useful, than a 5/5 flyer in a situation where you have won nearly anyway, because your opponent just lost three lands and is facing a hasty 7/10.
And as I said, if you want to have another fatty in play, just invest one single more G (which really should be affordable in the midgame) and activate Welder twice.

I really never want to miss Ranger...
Sharuum is not bad of course, but I'd only play it in addition, not instead of Ranger. And probably it is most worthwile in an Intuition pile.
Got to test this.

[MEATROCKET]

I would absolutely never cut Ranger from a Survival list with Rofellos and Anger. No way. I didn't say that I'd cut Ranger for Sharuum. I'd cut Master T for sure, as well as all of the red blasts, Painter, Grindstones, Jaya, and Thirsts.

I guess I just think that a standard Angry Survival deck with Welder+Sharuum+Duplicant+Titan is better than a Welder Survival deck, if you know what I mean. And even then I'm not sure I'd play it over a normal Survival build.

[sco0ter]

I would absolutely never cut Ranger from a Survival list with Rofellos and Anger. No way. I didn't say that I'd cut Ranger for Sharuum.


Ok, then I misinterpreted it...


I'd cut Thirsts.

Really? Probably the best instant draw spell in the format. Even restriced in Vintage. And it fits so well with the artifact theme.



I guess I just think that a standard Angry Survival deck with Welder+Sharuum+Duplicant+Titan is better than a Welder Survival deck, if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately not.. Where's the difference?

[MEATROCKET]

Really? Probably the best instant draw spell in the format. Even restriced in Vintage. And it fits so well with the artifact theme.
I strongly disagree with this. As a draw spell, Fact or Fiction is better in Legacy. Brainstorm, while not necessarily card advantage, is almost always coupled with fetches in this format and becomes insane card selection. Neither of these spells require that you run a high number of artifacts just to support them.

Thirst is restricted in Vintage for various reasons and the reasons aren't comparable to Legacy. Vintage decks run a supportable number of artifacts regardless of how many Thirsts they play because they'd be dumb not to (Moxes, Sol Ring, Lotus, etc.). Thirst also proved to be a ridiculously good Mana Drain sink. In legacy, spending three mana for +2 cards, maybe +1, while restricting your deck-building options just doesn't cut it.

Survival is just a better engine than Thirst. No need to try to make both of them working, especially when we already have Survival to dump our robots in the yard.


Unfortunately not.. Where's the difference?
They splash for Black or White (or both) for discard and removal. They also have a lot of creatures that make up a very useful and versatile toolbox. You can check out the thread in the DTB forum.

[sco0ter]

I strongly disagree with this. As a draw spell, Fact or Fiction is better in Legacy. Brainstorm, while not necessarily card advantage, is almost always coupled with fetches in this format and becomes insane card selection. Neither of these spells require that you run a high number of artifacts just to support them.


But FoF requires that you run a control deck, which is about as restrictive as an artifact theme.
And I don't want to count Brainstorm as draw spell (no CA).



Survival is just a better engine than Thirst. No need to try to make both of them working, especially when we already have Survival to dump our robots in the yard.


Sure, that is obvious. The problem is that you don't always have Survival.
Thirst helps to find it and acts like an alternative discard outlet for our fatties and makes CA most of the time.

I mean if there's a deck in Legacy, which can play Thirst at its best, it is this (and maybe Control Slaver). So why don't play it?



They splash for Black or White (or both) for discard and removal. They also have a lot of creatures that make up a very useful and versatile toolbox. You can check out the thread in the DTB forum.

Hm... well ok, but if you squeeze the complete Welder engine into a "standard" (as you called it) Survival, you end up having a Welder Survival.
Maybe without blue splash, but GBr and GBw variants have been discussed, too.

[HPB_Eggo]

Another way to go with this would be to add more Scarecrows and put in Reaper King, making him your one-card answer to almost everything, so long as Survival is out. This also means you can run Scarecrone as draw, Scuttlemutt as additional mana accel, and Heap Doll as recurring graveyard hate.

I definitely think blasts should go to the SB, but Jaya needs to be kept, because she locks down the game if you can play her and Painter's Servant. It makes it harder to stick things through permission, but that's why the blasts are still in the SB.

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi, just started brainstorming about putting Survival/Painter together with "The Shining" combodeck from older vintage format heres my list:


Creatures:

3 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering titan
3 Painters Servant
1 Squee, goblin nabob
1 anger
1 Trinket mage
4 tarmogoyf
1 quirion ranger


Spells:

4 Survival of the fittest
1 grindstone
4 reap
1 lions eye diamond
1 magma mine
2 intuition
4 mox diamond
1 engineered explosives
3 senseis divining top
4 brainstorm

Lands:

4 Volcanic Island
4 tropical island
2 polluted delta
3 wooded foothills
1 academy ruins
1 forest
1 mountain
1 island
1 tree of tales
1 seat of the synod
1 great furnace

Got no Sideboard yet but got the same problem as every survival deck, it needs to be protected, i thought of playing forces+counterbalance but i am not sure if this would work. In fact Xantid swarm and grips will be in the sideboard.

[Philipp2293]

Could you please shed some light on the 'The Shining'-Combo?
Thx

[Tangle.Wire]

Could you please shed some light on the 'The Shining'-Combo?
Thx

Painter -> "Your clothes are black!" -> Reap, should bring 2 or more Cards from the graveyard to your hand.

Reap -> Lions eye diamond -> magma mine -> kills

As its same as the grindstonecombo just a bit more difficult reap+painter are good at their own as a reap will dig through the graveyard and can even win by getting back goofies or the grindstone.

[HPB_Eggo]

Well, as per my additional scarecrow suggestion a few posts ago, this is a possible list I have been testing out that seems to work quite well...

I also ended up cutting blue, because, while drawing is nice, I have a nice little draw mechanic in colorless with Scarecrone. I also ended up keeping the blasts, as they are generally good game 1 and can easily be taken out the second and third games if they aren't.

Main
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
3x Mountain
3x Forest
2x Tree of Tales

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Grindstone
3x Red Elemental Blasts
3x Pyroblast

4x Goblin Welder
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Painter's Servant
4x Scuttlemutt
4x Scarecrone
2x Heap Doll
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1x Reaper King
1x Grim Poppet
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Anger
1x Sundering Titan
1x Platinum Angel
1x Squee

Sideboard
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
2x Heap Doll
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast

This has been working quite well for me, as the combo finish can come out very quickly, although you essentially have to run 4 Grindstone with the lack of Trinket Mage.

A lot of the cards generally serve several purposes, as well, with all the scarecrows serving as Vindicates with Reaper King in play. I've always liked adding "Destroy target permanent" to my Welder activations.

In addition, Scarecrone helps with draw and returns creatures to keep up the drawing/welding, Heap Doll is a cheap artifact creature that doubles as 'yard hate, Grim Poppet is on par with Triskelion, and Scuttlemutt protects your creatures from color-dependent hate, i.e. most black spot removal.

All in all, its been working pretty well, and can win fairly handily without SoF in play.

[sco0ter]

Why do you want 4 Scuttlemutt? Aren't they really bad? A 3-mana BoP?
Didn't you have the feeling that the list is unfocused? (e.g. Painter in play but no Blasts in hand or the other way round?

4 Scarecrone also look like a lot.

[HPB_Eggo]

Why do you want 4 Scuttlemutt? Aren't they really bad? A 3-mana BoP?

They work fairly well, considering they take the place of Sylvan Safekeeper in many situations, and come out turn 2 fairly often.


Didn't you have the feeling that the list is unfocused? (e.g. Painter in play but no Blasts in hand or the other way round?

The same argument can be made for any Painter deck. The fact is, it's not very often that you keep a hand with more than one blast that doesn't have a Painter, and having to mull once more occasionally is hardly a bad thing. Moreover, it really helps to ensure that you land SoF game 1 against permission decks.


4 Scarecrone also look like a lot.

They work quite well with the number of scarecrows in the deck. They will randomly win the game by allowing you to draw two or three cards when you need an answer. They also return your creatures to play if, for instance, your Welders got extirpated or something of that sort.

I could see replacing some Scuttlemutts and Scarecrones, I'm just not sure what with, considering the ridiculous synergy with Reaper King and the other scarecrows makes them much better than they first appear.

[Philipp2293]

Well, as per my additional scarecrow suggestion a few posts ago, this is a possible list I have been testing out that seems to work quite well...

I also ended up cutting blue, because, while drawing is nice, I have a nice little draw mechanic in colorless with Scarecrone. I also ended up keeping the blasts, as they are generally good game 1 and can easily be taken out the second and third games if they aren't.

Main
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
3x Mountain
3x Forest
2x Tree of Tales

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Grindstone
3x Red Elemental Blasts
3x Pyroblast

4x Goblin Welder
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Painter's Servant
4x Scuttlemutt
4x Scarecrone
2x Heap Doll
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1x Reaper King
1x Grim Poppet
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Anger
1x Sundering Titan
1x Platinum Angel
1x Squee

Sideboard
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
2x Heap Doll
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast

This has been working quite well for me, as the combo finish can come out very quickly, although you essentially have to run 4 Grindstone with the lack of Trinket Mage.

A lot of the cards generally serve several purposes, as well, with all the scarecrows serving as Vindicates with Reaper King in play. I've always liked adding "Destroy target permanent" to my Welder activations.

In addition, Scarecrone helps with draw and returns creatures to keep up the drawing/welding, Heap Doll is a cheap artifact creature that doubles as 'yard hate, Grim Poppet is on par with Triskelion, and Scuttlemutt protects your creatures from color-dependent hate, i.e. most black spot removal.

All in all, its been working pretty well, and can win fairly handily without SoF in play.

I really like the idea for this deck, could maybe Magus of the Moon be an inclusion?

[HPB_Eggo]

I really like the idea for this deck, could maybe Magus of the Moon be an inclusion?

I like Magus. It completely destroy certain Thresh and Landstill builds, as well as somewhat hindering any ANT build that lacks basics. The only problem I have with it is that it turns Tree of Tales into a mountain, which prevents me from using it with Welder. I'll definitely test it and see what happens.

Also, a more recent list, as testing has invalidated a lot of my previous reasoning...

Main
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
4x Taiga
4x Savannah
4x Tree of Tales
2x Forest

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Grindstone

4x Goblin Welder
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Painter's Servant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scuttlemutt
2x Scarecrone
2x Heap Doll
1x Reaper King
1x Grim Poppet
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Anger
1x Platinum Angel
1x Squee
1x Gaddock Teeg

I switched to splashing white a few days ago after playing and losing something like thirty games in a row to ANT, as well as a good number against UW Landstill and various Countertop decks. Pridemage and Teeg make those matchups winnable in a lot of cases, and they're generally all-around good cards. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do, but I'm fiddling around with it.

The sideboard got completely scrapped, I'm not sure what is going there now. Maybe some interesting non-creature artifacts to move around with Goblin Welder, like Ensnaring Bridge.

[sco0ter]

The only problem I have with it is that it turns Tree of Tales into a mountain, which prevents me from using it with Welder.

No, it doesn't. Tree of Tales is still an artifact. Moon only changes the subtype, not the supertype.

It would be:

Artifact Land - Mountain
Add {R} to your mana pool.

[HPB_Eggo]

No, it doesn't. Tree of Tales is still an artifact. Moon only changes the subtype, not the supertype.

Makes sense. I guess I didn't quite think that one out. :tongue:

I would think Magus would be very good in a RG build, so I guess I'll have to test that. I'm not sure if the loss of combo-hate is worth it, though. I very much so dislike losing because I don't have any cards to win with.

[comeback]

I've not yet tested the deck my I have just a question that could clarify some your choices.

You play creature like Tarmogoyf & Qasali that offer you an aggro plan and you need just :r: for Welder or Jaya so why don't you try to be more aggro trying to play Noble Hierarch instead of BoP?

[GGoober]

Noble Hierarch could work but the deck is infact not light on R.

You need R for blasts and Jaya activation (double red to play Jaya). I think the deck doesn't really want to play aggro. You can aggro out like traditional RGBSA advantage with Goyf + Rofellos + Anger but you really want to play out Blasts/Jaya + Painter to lock your opponents out or win with Welder activations with Titan etc.

I'm going to piece up the deck for this weekend. I like the Reaper King idea. He's actually playable with Rofellos. I would probably just play with Scarecrone and Heap Doll since they actually give some card advantage by themselves. Scuttlemutt is really bad lol.

[HPB_Eggo]

You play creature like Tarmogoyf & Qasali that offer you an aggro plan and you need just for Welder or Jaya so why don't you try to be more aggro trying to play Noble Hierarch instead of BoP?

My immediate response is that it is really, really important to be able to play Welder, even with only green mana sources. I'm fairly sure that will hold up in testing, but I'll try it a few times and see what happens.


You need R for blasts and Jaya activation (double red to play Jaya). I think the deck doesn't really want to play aggro. You can aggro out like traditional RGBSA advantage with Goyf + Rofellos + Anger but you really want to play out Blasts/Jaya + Painter to lock your opponents out or win with Welder activations with Titan etc.

I honestly think blasts are a bad idea outside of the sideboard. I used to think blasts were really good with Painter, but then I realized that drawing a hand with three blasts and no Painters was horrible. Blasts are amazing in the board, but really are dead often enough that it can be annoying, assuming your meta is not filled with blue decks.


I'm going to piece up the deck for this weekend. I like the Reaper King idea. He's actually playable with Rofellos. I would probably just play with Scarecrone and Heap Doll since they actually give some card advantage by themselves. Scuttlemutt is really bad lol.

Scuttlemutt's usefulness is really dependent on the meta. If there are lots of black decks, he can be very useful in protecting Painter/Welder from removal, as well as helping to actually cast Reaper King.

Grim Poppet is ridiculous good. I would say he's better than Triskellion, because he can remove creatures and still swing for 4 every turn, assuming Anger is in the 'yard, as well as activating Reaper King. If you're using Reaper King, you should play him.

Also, playing Sundering Titan and Reaper King seemed like overkill when I tested it. I would probably say running a second Reaper King is better than running them both. I never actually tested a build with two Kings, though, so I don't actually know.

Good luck at the tournament, btw. :wink:

[GGoober]

Here's my latest list:

2 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
1 Mountain
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

1 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
1 Rofellos
1 Trygon Predator
1 Jaya
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Scarecrone
1 Anger
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King

4 Grindstone
4 Survival of the Fittest

3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Thirst for Knowledge


The scarecrow synergy has worked pretty well with Welding effects or survivalling out a Vindicative Painter every turn. Sometimes without Welder/Survival, the Scarecrow idea is too crappy. Titan is needed to kill many decks. Grim Poppet is great! Good suggestion.

4 Grindstones is definitely needed. They're welder baits anyway. You can also do the trigger Grindstone, weld out Grindstone for a Painter in the yard to win without Painter on board.

My list still packs 4 Thirst for Knowledge, just to keep the Welder-no Survival plan online. The carddraw has been great and I've no regrets. Without losing blue, I can run Trygons, which are huge with haste. Llawan in the SB is to deal with Zoo and fast aggro.

So far the deck's pretty consistent. I'll keep any hand with Survival + creature, any hand with Painter/Grindstone/Blasts, any hand with Goyf/Survival, any hand with TfK/Welder. I recommend that if you do drop blue, you need to run at least 5 blasts to back up your game. This is a mid-range control deck. Compared to regular Survival Welder, you have another win-condition with Painter, and therefore you can use your life to gamble, but you can't gamble with losing either engine, so blasts help achieve that.

My SB with the Scarecrow list is:

3 Pithing Needle
2 Heap Doll
3 Grips
3 Pyroblast
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Platinum Angel
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

I'm considering on moving the Angel in the MD. I'm still unsure if this does better than the non scarecrow list with Duplicant/Triskelion. I'm leaning towards the scarecrow list simply because there's already 4 non-dead Scarecrows (Painters). The only added Scarecrows are Grim Poppet which is good by himself, and Reaper King, which has a good inbuilt synergy with Welder and Survivaling a Vindicate Scarecrow every turn. I really don't like Scarecrone. I'm taking him out for Master Transmuter (cycling Titan, Poppets and Scarecrows is win-more but it does help win the game). You can also save your board with Transmuter, all at instant speed.

Trinket Mage is no longer needed with 4 Grindstone.

I need to get the janky scarecrow cards and a playset of Birds and 2 Grindstone to play this though. I tested on MWS against goblins, and it was very favorable matchup (thanks to Goyf) and how this owns non-control mid-range aggro. Zoo might be a problem actually. If you pack 5-7 blasts MD, Landstill should be favorable, otherwise it's not a favorable matchup until you get Titan out.

I also tested against Affinity. Survivavling and Welding out Plat Angel is great. And Trygon was MVP,together with Poppet and Reaper King lol.

[GGoober]

Here's my homebrew decklist for last week (Welderstone Survival)

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Painter Servant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rofellos
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya
1 Trygon Predator
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Master Transmuter
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Survival of the Fittest


I went 2-2 with the list playing against:
Canadian Thresh (I won 2-0)
Game 1 I stabilized against his Land destruction and beats and I'm at 3 life. He needs a bolt to kill me. Survival resolved and in 3 turns, I ended the game with Sundering Titan and Reaper King beats.

Game 2 He kept a super aggro hand of 2 Goyfs 2 Mongoose I think. I baited my spells/Goyfs into removal and counter and resolved Painter Grindstone on turn 5.


Spanish ANT (0-2, super fast list)
Nothing here. Spanish list runs pure speed with 4 City of Traitors. He comboed off on turn 2 both games. This list may need Mindbreak Trap/Canonist to deal with it


Dredge (2-1)
Game 1 I won the game with turn 1 Grindstone, turn 2 Painter, turn 3 Grind.

Game 2 I had enough for lethal (Reaper King + 6/7 Goyf) but I made the mistake to discard and tutor squee to set myself up next turn where I could have kept a Red open for my REB (I sided 3 REBs in against Dredge. REB is critical in hitting Breakthroughs/Deep Analysis). Guess what, he Breakthroughs and reach critical mass and wins.

Game 3 Grim Poppet was MVP. Killing Ichorids on upkeep and Narcomoebas, ensuring he had no creatures in play. Crypt in reponse to Needle removed a Bridge, Dread Return and 2 dredgers. He dredged into some critical mass but without FKZ, he could not recover from my lethal attack next turn.



Pox (1-2, this was a close game)
Game 1 I won with Survival advantage.
Game 2 I could not survive against his land destruction and smallpox hurt a lot with Bop in play. I stabilized on 1 land and tutored for BoP every turn, but eventually he kills my manabase. By the time I recovered with Goyf, I was at 5 life facing beats from multiple factories and nether spirit

Game 3 Similar to game 2 but my hand was weaker.


The deck actually has potential. I can randomly draw into Painter/Stone and win (Eugene can testify how I won game 1 against Dredge with that). I can also draw up Goyfs and land earlier goyfs with BoP. The deck opens itself to Fire//Ice since the birds will die but I usually try not to open myself for 2for1s. Welder should not be played early game at all and should only be played if Anger is in the yard. Unless your opponent does not run too much pinpoint removal, you can play out Welder but there's really no point in having a 1/1 in play if there's nothing to weld things around.

SDT was good in finding combo with fetches, but I'm probably going to cut it for Chrome Mox. Survival is such a mana hungry deck that when I get Survival online, I NEVER used SDT. It has neat Welding tricks though since you can Tap draw a card and weld it out in response.

Pros of the deck:
- Attacks from MANY angles (hasty goyfs off Survival, Painterstone, Painter/Jaya, Welder shenanigans)
- High resiliency: Painterstone is really resilient with Welder since you can have just a Grindstone in play and Painter in the yard and activate Grindstone and Weld it out for a Painter and win with the trigger on the stack
- Fast: BoP really accelerates and if the deck draws either Survival or Painter/Stone, it's really sweet.
- Reaper King was great. 6/6 body and grabbing Painters off Survival to Vindicate is always a fun thing to do. That one slot is worth it, simply as a pin-point removal. you can think of him as a Duplicant for permanents.

Cons:
- Highly unoptimized list. I'm running blue for TfK, which are great, but in testing, a little too slow for my taste. I think my main reason for blue was to keep Trygon. Master Transmuter was USELESS even though her ability is pretty stupid. I'm either switching to the white/black list
- SDT was a little bad in the list. Chrome Mox would be much better for accelerating.
- Folds to combo
- Sideboard needs to be tweaked.


In light of today's tournament, this will be my eventual list:

White gives Enlightened Tutor, which seriously fetches ANY of the following
- Grindstone
- Painter's Servant
- Survival

If either engine gets online, it's easily GG.

The deck might need some REBs main to abuse Painter without Grindstone.

Here's the new list that I'll test possibly (maybe black with Discard is a better strategy against combo, but white can tutor up Canonist if needed to stall a little).


4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
4 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Painter Servant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rofellos
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Grindstone
3 Chrome Mox
4 Survival of the Fittest


SB:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 REB
3 Pyroblast
1 Heap Doll
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip

[sco0ter]

Nice deck (still) and thanks for the report.

Some questions:

- Magus of the Moon: was he ever useful? Won he a game?
- Reaper King: better than Duplicant? You still need 2G to tutor and pay for Painter
- Grim Poppet over Triskelion? I like the reach which Triskelion gives against decks like Lands. But probably it's not needed due to Grindstone.
- Jaya: worth the slot? It seems like it uses much setup (Survival, Painter, much mana) and Reaper King does the same thing.

Does the deck feel more like a Survival or more like combo deck? I mean did you tempt to go off with Grindstone more often or do you rather want to go the Welder Survival route and win with card advantage and big beats (Titan, ...)?

[GGoober]

Magus was never used against Canadian Thresh, Pox, ANT, Dredge.

He would techinically slow ANT/Dredge but it wouldn't work. As a Landstill player, he doesn't really do much since they have EE and basics and StP. He might be taken out of the MD. most likely to include 4 Blasts in the MD when I tweak my list. Unlike Imperial Painter, we don't have 7 Moon effects to consistently lock people out of the game. 1 Magus really doesn't do much. More testing has to be done to warrant him in.

My friend mentioned that Magus is a beating for Dredge. It doesn't stop them from Dredging but it slows them down a ton since they can no longer breakthrough and Coliseum. The time gained from the tempo allows you to combo out or find a Heap Doll to screw their plans.

Reaper King is indeed better than Duplicant, as far as the synergy goes with the deck. There are usually not many creatures you want to destroy. You have Goyf to back you up and you can win much faster than Welder Survival if you get painterstone online. Reaper King has the advantage on killing Enchantments (Counterbalance, Solitary Confinement), Artifacts (Null Rod, Pithing Needle), Creatures (tons of stuff), AND PLANESWALKERS.

And the nice thing is that with Welder, you don't really play him so you don't have to worry about him resolving. The flexibility of Reaper King for me is much better than Duplicant which only hits creatures which the deck isn't afraid anyway.

Jaya is a good lock. I haven't used her since I've gotten the combos out consistently and fast such that the lock isn't needed. If I had Survival out, I should be winning. She hasn't done much, but you should include her just simply because she's an out to a problem. It's the same deal with why Survival deck run a tutor box, because it gives the option on getting out of a troublesome spot. If you didn't have that spot, you'll lose to games.

Grim Poppet is good because he's a scarecrow. I have a Trisk in the board that I might use but never found the need. I never found the need on burning my opponent's face with Trisk since it's a win-more strategy with Welder. I'm sure that Welder is allowed to stick more than 1 turn in Legacy? (i.e. I doubt that in Legacy your opponents will let you weld Trisks in and out multiple times for fun). Grim Poppet is a much better one-time activation. Critically, a Trisk cannot kill a 4/5 goyf that is beating for lethal but Grim poppet is relevant because it shrinks Goyfs permanently, and one problem with the deck is against fast Zoo with big creatures.

The deck honestly plays more like a Survival deck, since if you have Survival, you can get out Welder Survival tricks and win, or get out Painter and lock them out with Reaper King/Jaya depending if you have Welder in play. The only nice thing in addition to traditional Welder Survival is that you can REALLY randomly win off Painterstone combo. And Survival helps get the combo if you have a Grindstone in play. If you don't have Survival and have Grindstone in play and Welder, then you can still do tricks around by letting them counter Servant with Grindstone in play, resolve welder and weld things out.

The deck is just really fun to play, and attacks from various angles. It's mainly a survival deck, but with a ton of backup plan. The only issue I have with the new white list is that it's prone to Countertop but I have 3 Grips and Pridemage to help that out. You can up the Pridemages MD if you're expecting tons of countertop.

Combo is a problem. Not sure if Canonist and Mindbreak Trap is enough to own. Seems at least viable to not lose turn 2 on the play. Although in my tournament, since I wasn't too used to playing my own creation, I didn't know how to side. I would recommend siding in (for the new white build):

3 Canonist
6 Blast
and board out the Welder Package. You really want to stall them and win with Painter Grindstone rather than Welder tricks which don't do much and is too slow. You want to fully rely on a resolved Painter to start screwing them with Blasts and win with Grindstone (via enlightened tutor or drawing them). Canonist would help buy a turn or 2, but as long as you resolve Painter, you're in much better shape. My mistake in my tourney was not boarding out the welder package.

[HPB_Eggo]

I've been testing a white splash, and I can lend a few thoughts there...

Gaddock Teeg is remarkably good. Running one in the maindeck is a very good idea, as he can stop certain combo decks entirely, as well as prevent stuff like Engineered Explosives, Moat, Humility, and random Planeswalkers from hitting the table. Running him and Canonist together, along with the blasts, will probably make combo winnable.

Enlightened Tutor is a good card. However, the only list where I really appreciated it was one where I was running 2-3 Sensei's Divining Tops to take advantage of all the mana and shuffling effects this deck generates. It worked really well, but I didn't do enough testing to see if it was actually better than a more aggro list without either.

Qasali Pridemage is very good. I would run at least two, if not more.

I don't like Chrome Mox. More of a personal thing, I guess. If you're just looking to speed up the combo, run LED instead, as it both assists you in getting creatures into the graveyard without Survival as well as paying for Grindstone activations all by itself. As an added bonus, you can play it after Grindstone, crack it to put Painter's Servant into the graveyard, and then weld him back in.

[gustha]

I don't have much time now, 'cause I'm going to prepare an exam, but it's a few days I've seen this topic with an eye of interest. Just a question/suggestion, before disappearing for a couple of days: would sen triplets not go in this build?
Coming off of a fast survival/welder, it's a good control element (slows down the opponent, removes his creatures with his own spells, etc.). If we manage to bring her out in the midgame, her chant effect usually means gg. She's maybe better than that singleton MotM (which, as a landstill player myself, I've never considered a good card to be played as 1-of, it locks if it comes down early, not when the game is already settled). As a 1-of, on the contrary, sen triplets absolutely locks the game, or forces the opponent to removal (1 less headed to painters/goyfs). Having her ability resolved in the upkeep, means chant-painter-grindstone-gg. Here mana cost is not maybe off color, she needs to pass from the grave (but so does other pieces of the deck...).
Loved the grim poppet thing, nice old-style tech, but -1/-1 counters are better than triskelion's damage (though triskelion can damage players).

[chokin]

I'd run a couple Witness. I like being able to generate better card quality through TfK, and Witness allows the deck to recur the engines (TfK and Survival), get back lost combo/lock pieces, or any creature since I don't see any Genesis in many lists.

I personally like Sharuum. Welding/Transmuting in Sharuum also provides some advantage on the board.

HPB_Eggo - Those LED "tricks" are kinda cool. I'm sure that other people can think up some neat tricks with it. I'm willing to test it out.

[HPB_Eggo]

Here's the list I'm testing as of right now...

4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
3x Forest
3x Tree of Tales
2x Savannah

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Painter's Servant
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Goblin Welder
2x Heap Doll
1x Squee
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Reaper King
1x Rofellos
1x Gaddock Teeg

4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Grindstone
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Pyroblast
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Pithing Needle
2x Heap Doll
1x Jaya Ballard

It seems to be performing fairly well. It is very good at playing without SoF or Painter/Grindstone, and SDT/Enlightened Tutor help immensely with the non-aggro plans. Qasali Pridemage is, as always, ridiculously good, as there are few decks where he doesn't solve at least one problem.

As for Sen Triplets, I could see where you could build a deck that would work around her, but I'm not sure this is it. Yes, it can be a good card. However, I don't like that it requires two colors that are not playable in the deck without Birds. Also, with Goblin Welder to recur lost combo pieces, I don't see counters as much of a problem for this deck, so the need to prevent said counters is not really there.

Random Editing...


I'd run a couple Witness. I like being able to generate better card quality through TfK, and Witness allows the deck to recur the engines (TfK and Survival), get back lost combo/lock pieces, or any creature since I don't see any Genesis in many lists.

I really, really didn't like the blue splash in the original build. Yes, it lets you play TfK. However, it doesn't really fix any problems with the deck, as we couldn't run enough blue for FoW, or even enough islands for Daze.

Eternal Witness is run in most Survival lists solely to grab in response to the destruction of Survival so you can bring it back. The way this deck is built, it is supposed to care less about sticking Survival, so running a card that essentially exists only to recur Survival is not really helpful(we can recur combo pieces with Welder and creatures with Genesis as needed).


HPB_Eggo - Those LED "tricks" are kinda cool. I'm sure that other people can think up some neat tricks with it. I'm willing to test it out.

LED is an amazing card with Painter/Grindstone and Goblin Welder; first turn of the first game you can also draw a FoW or something of the sort, as the assumption will be that you're playing ANT or Ichorid. The only real problem is what to cut.

[GGoober]

HPB, I like your list

The only thing I don't like about it is the big tutor box that is usually redundant in most metagames (Countertop, Landstill, Zoo). Your list is probably tweaked to your metagame though. For e.g. I don't see the need of 4 Pridemage in the MD and 2 Heap doll in the main. Teeg is good, but as a one-off, you're basically saying that you have to resolve Survival to grab him. The matches where you need him is against ANT and Landstill, and waiting on Survival to grab Teeg on turn 3 is already GG against ANT. Against Landstill, you probably won't be able to resolve Survival easily against Snares and EE, not to mention Teeg gets pathed.

Trust me, Teeg is great, but in the MD slot he doesn't do much as a one-off. In the SB when you bring in your hate package, his inclusion becomes much stronger since your opponents have to deal with a ton of other hate.

I agree with HPB that the blue list is very suboptimal. I had some hopes in it so I brought it last week, but testing showed that TfK was a little too slow. TfK is more situated in a controllish shell. Many times I simply wished that I had ETutor to go off faster, captilizing on the fact that I had parts of an engine out and wanting to go off when my opponent hasn't been able to dig for an answer.

The situations boiled down to:

1) Grindstone in play: You want Painter so drawing or SotF Painter is the ideal play

2) Painter in play: You want Grindstone to win or SotF to grab Jaya/Reaper King

3) Survival in play: You want Welder engines or Painter/Jaya

4) Welder in play: You want fatties/engines in your yard.

TfK allowed me to draw/dig for 1), 2), 3) and gave a huge boost to 4).


In my testing, I'll explain why TfK wasn't good in practice.

Clearly simply digging 1), 2), 3) is not great, especially if you don't run brainstorm and other digging spells to maximize TfK. TfK really fuels 4), but situation 4) arises usually when I have SotF in play. I seldom play Welder without Anger in the yard since it's simply a suicide play and waste of a welder.

In light of these observations last week, I referred back to HPB's white version and weighed the benefits on 1)-4). White gives enlightened tutor, which:

1) You have Grindstone: you no longer need to draw Painter but simply tutor for it

2) You have Painter: You can tutor for either Grindstone or SotF to go off in either ways.

3) Survival in play: Now, you can grab either Welder or Painter engines since ETutor can tutor up Grindstone where in the TfK situation, you'd want to go off with Welder since you can't guarantee drawing into a Grindstone

4) Welder in play: This isn't great with ETutor, but there are cases where you can tutor out Painter/Grindstone with either Grindstone/Painter in the yard, or simply ETutor for Survival to go off.


As we can see, Etutor fulfilss 1)-4) much better than TfK. The remaining issue is the innate pros/cons of Etutor and TfK. The innate problem with ETutor is the card disadvantage which is relevant but since this deck is sort of combo, assembling and resolving the combo is more important hence justifying its inclusion. TfK's innate problem is that it's 3cc, which makes it hard to resolve against Daze/Thresh.dec. ETutor has the problem of dying to counterbalance but being less susceptible to Dazes.

However, I feel that the consistency and tutoring power of ETutor far outweighs its drawback as card disadvantage. The deck gets either engines out very fast and only etutor can help achiev the engine out by turn 3 whereas TfK might assemble the engine drawing on turns2/3 and not consistently piece the engine up since it doesnt tutor.

Regardless, the deck doesn't need any combos to go off. It still runs good cards: Goyfs, Pridemages are all solid cards on their own, and there are games where I win with SotF tutoring goyf beats instead of combo.

Transmuter, as expected, was USELESS and definitely win-more. The same thing goes with Sharuum and even more for Sen Triplets. Basically any welding target you get is coming from SotF and these targets should never be win-more since one needs to know that these targets, including SotF are the highest threat in the deck, hence they are VERY likely to be countered and removed. Sen Triplets is game-breaking ONLY if your opponent has no answer, and that's not good in a format with StP running around. Master Transmuter for this very reason was hardly used because 1 Titan in play should be gamebreaking and cycling Titans is a win-more strategy (only in specific situations is it actually not win-more and needed).

White therefore gives ETutor and Pridemages, and Canonist and Teeg in the SB, which are all not win-more cards. It's easy to include win-more cards in a deck that's fun and powerful. This deck is as powerful as it's fragile but in my opinion, it has a ton more resiliency than regular Survival Welder, because it has a second deadly engine, which has synergy with the Welder and Survival engine. Therefore going off in multiple directions and not being screwed when one engine is dead is the strength of this deck.

This is also one of the main reason why I intentionally excluded EWitness. Like Survival Bant, this deck can win without the aid of Survival. Unlike regular RGBSA and Welder Survival, Survival is the most critical piece to making those decks work, hence they need 3 Witness to actually ensure that they can continually put SotF out as a threat. Our deck doesn't need SotF to go broken. You can go off in the many directions as pointed above, which is why EWitness is a wasted slot since it's only main purpose is to return Survival or a Goyf (which IMO is too slow a play if you're in such a desperation to return a goyf to block an army of goblins).

[HPB_Eggo]

The only thing I don't like about it is the big tutor box that is usually redundant in most metagames (Countertop, Landstill, Zoo).

I did my best to cut it down as much as possible. I cut Platinum Angel and Sundering Titan, and am on the verge of putting Genesis in the board. I sometimes miss Angel, but I hardly ever use Genesis and Titan is, at least in my experience, strictly worse than Reaper King in this deck.


Your list is probably tweaked to your metagame though. For e.g. I don't see the need of 4 Pridemage in the MD and 2 Heap doll in the main.

I see a lot of Ichorid, so I need the Heap Dolls. The simultaneously eliminate Bridges and Dredgers/Ichorids, and basically win the match all by themselves. I would say run two main even if you don't have that problem, as it will randomly win some games and is, if nothing else, still a one-drop Scarecrow with which to activate Reaper King. The two in the board is probably overkill for most people.

Pridemage is there as a 4-of because of Countertop and a somewhat consistent Affinity and Enchantress presence. I would generally say two is enough, especially when running Genesis.


Teeg is good, but as a one-off, you're basically saying that you have to resolve Survival to grab him. The matches where you need him is against ANT and Landstill, and waiting on Survival to grab Teeg on turn 3 is already GG against ANT. Against Landstill, you probably won't be able to resolve Survival easily against Snares and EE, not to mention Teeg gets pathed.

I've been encountering quite a lot of that. I'm thinking he should switch places with Jaya and head out to the SB.

So, currently, I'm thinking something along these lines...

Main: -1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Jaya Ballard
SB: +2 Teeg, -1 Jaya Ballard, -1 Pithing Needle

For more general metas, I would also do something along these lines in addition to that...

Main: -2 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard: -2 Heap Doll, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Ethersworn Canonist

Although I'm much less sure about the general meta testing than I am about my own. Could be there are better cards to put in those slots.

[GGoober]

Our metas are a little different, but I think Heap Doll in the MD is a dead card outside of Dredge. Sure it stops loam, but they should have a cycler to save the LftL.

I would recommend (FOR A GENERAL META) to play 2 Heap Doll SB. Against Ichorid, you can remove bridges, take away an Ichorid and nuke a land/narco with Reaper King in play. Teeg should be in the SB. One can possibly play 2 Teeg, 3 Canonist in the SB or 3 Teeg, 2 Canonist and bring the Teegs against Enchantress/Landstill but I would just stick with 6 blasts for anything blue.

As far as I know, combo players are more annoyed by Canonist than Teeg. Teeg doesn't stop Mtutor into removal but neither does Canonist, but Canonist stops them from going off on that turn since they cannot play anything until they've bounced her, and tutoring for a bounce is 2 spells, which they can't pull it off without a ritual or 3 lands, so they need another turn. I'm not too worried about the Landstill matchup if you don't overextend into EE. Against anything non blue, just play your hand out fast and win, but against blue, you can slow-roll them and bait out counters/removal by playing servants/goyfs, and then resolve Survival or play a Welder with anger in the yard to win.

Platinum Angel to me is useless. The deck's bad matchups are combo and Angel does nothing against bounce and grips. Nullstone Gargoyle does something at least. Angel can possibly kill Dredge entirely but that's if she doesn't get Chained or chewed away by Ingot chewer and Chain of Vapor.

To be honest, I haven't used Jaya anytime yet so she maybe a wasted slow, but I've seen Imperial Painter win right off the back of Jaya burn. If you have 8 mana off Rofellos and Jaya, you can possibly just end the game right there with a huge burn.

I only run 2 Pridemage MD since my only feared artifacts/enchantments are Counterbalance and EE. Dreadnought is scary, but you'll board in Grips against them. HPB, I highly advice playing at least 3 Grips. You can't deal with Countertop without Grips even with Pridemages. You might have trouble resolving Pridemages, and Grips help against Stax and Dreadstill tremendously, and Pox's Crucible. The main reason I played blue was for Trygon and TfK (3cc out of Countertop's popular 1-2cc) but I'm willing to take a bite from Countertop with the Pridemages (2cc) and Enlightened Tutor (1cc) to be more explosive and consistent.

I've liked and disliked SDT. It helps find the combos and pieces, but since this white build already has a good chance on finding one of the 3 win-conditions, I think SDT can leave. SDT was only useful for me turns 1-2, and useful against Pox where I had to dig for lands, but other than that, when Survival is online, I never used SDT since I was busy tutoring and using mana on going broken with Survival. Without Survival, I can see the benefits of SDT. Chrome Mox is definitely a terrible topdeck, but not so much in this list with Welders. I'll test the 3SDT v.s. 3 Chrome Mox list again. My direction to Chrome Mox was the same direction as stompy/Imperial Painter philosophy: To be able to play out faster threats and postboard, Chrome Mox having extra mana for REB open is valuable against storm and control decks. Maybe instead of 3 SDT and 3 Chrome Mox, finding space for 4 REB is better. Since we have 3 ETutors, getting Painter is almost as easy as in Imperial Recruiter, although we don't have the luxury of moon slowing opponents down.

My SB currently is:
SB:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 REB
2 Pyroblast
1 Heap Doll
1 Pridemage
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip

I'm not sure if Crypt > Heap Doll against Dredge. I'm leaning towards Heap Doll, but outside of Dredge, Crypt deals much better against LftL, although Heap Doll can do as well, if we had reaper king out. Crypt, however, is a less situational answer against Aggro Loam than Heap Doll, which requires us to resolve Reaper King. Again, I guess depending on the meta, I can drop Crypts for 3 Heap Dolls in a Dredge-no-loam meta, and play 1 Heap Doll, 2 Crypts in a loam-less-dredge meta.

I think Grip > Pridemage post SB against the decks you need them against. Aside from Stax, Grip is most relevant against countertop decks and dreadstill. Pridemage is highly unlikely to resolve unless you've baited around with Survival/Goyfs/Painters.

I'm taking this deck again this weekend with the new white list!

I just need 2 more BoP and 3 Heap Dolls rofl.

[HPB_Eggo]

Our metas are a little different, but I think Heap Doll in the MD is a dead card outside of Dredge. Sure it stops loam, but they should have a cycler to save the LftL.

It does more than just that, i.e. getting rid of Squee, but those are the main things. I can definitely see moving it to the SB for a general meta.


Platinum Angel to me is useless.

It can be good against Zoo and several other mathcups against fast aggro decks where you need to stall a turn or two, but otherwise I concur.


To be honest, I haven't used Jaya anytime yet so she maybe a wasted slow, but I've seen Imperial Painter win right off the back of Jaya burn. If you have 8 mana off Rofellos and Jaya, you can possibly just end the game right there with a huge burn.

I have also never used Jaya. However, I can see the idea being really good, so I'm going to endeavor to use her the next few times I go through testing and see if she actually helps when I bother to use her.


HPB, I highly advice playing at least 3 Grips.

There's a card I completely forgot about adding. I doubt I'll go above two for my list, although I could see where you might want more. For myself, I never seem to have problems with Countertop with the four Pridemages, and two Grips will probably ensure that I won't.


I've liked and disliked SDT. It helps find the combos and pieces, but since this white build already has a good chance on finding one of the 3 win-conditions, I think SDT can leave.

I still really like SDT. It helps ensure land drops against TT and Merfolk, it can grab solutions we can't tutor up after we side against Combo and the like, and it is just absurd with Survival out, as you can shuffle your deck two or three times every turn.

As for Chrome Mox, I would rather play LED in that spot. It can serve the same purpose as TfK for getting cards to the graveyard, it allows for some interesting shenanigans, it can pay for multiple Survival activations when you need it, pays for Grindstone...

The list could go on, but LED is, in my opinion, much better than Chrome Mox in this deck. The real question here is whether SDT, LED, or Blasts deserve the extra spell slots for the deck.


I'm taking this deck again this weekend with the new white list!

Good luck again. Make sure to keep us informed as to how you do.

[GGoober]

As for Chrome Mox, I would rather play LED in that spot. It can serve the same purpose as TfK for getting cards to the graveyard, it allows for some interesting shenanigans, it can pay for multiple Survival activations when you need it, pays for Grindstone...

The list could go on, but LED is, in my opinion, much better than Chrome Mox in this deck. The real question here is whether SDT, LED, or Blasts deserve the extra spell slots for the deck.


Wow, great catch here. I forgot that LED faciliates discarding artifacts in play.

I was a little worried about the exclusion of TfK making the Welder strategy bad.

Now LED most likely solves this. If you have Welder and Grindstone out, you can play LED pop it and discard painter and Welder out an activated grindstone to win without ever having to resolve Painter against blue decks.

I think Blasts cant take the place of 3 LED/3Chrome Mox/3SDT. The deck needs the artifact count up as well. 3-4 Blasts can take the place of creatures. We actually have 24-26 creatures now in the list, which is fairly high. I might drop to 3 Painter, but having random wins with it doesn't justify it. I've seen lists drop down to 3 Goyfs in RGBSA. Not sure if we can squeeze 4 Blasts into the MD. It would be ideal to alongside 4 Painters.

I'll test the LED this weekend. At least on paper, it seems good. And you can activate Survival and pop LED to get mana to cast your stuff too if need be.

HPB_Eggo, if you have the chance, test the decks out in tourneys on MWS and post your experiences. I'll put you on the front page for being the main innovator of the new ideas of Reaper King and LED. I do think our lists need a ton of fine-tuning, and as a Landstill player, you can see how the decks have finally been finetuned over many years of testing (e.g. old Landstill only runs 2 Standstill and Crucible while the newer builds can play out 3-4 Standstills without facing problems). I believe that this deck needs heavy testing to determine the right amount of cards to run, e.g. how many Welders/Goyfs/Painters/Moxen etc.

As far as I know, 3 Welder is the right amount. Drawing him early is useless, and drawing him in the mid-game with anger in the yard is where he shines. Playing him off Survival and only requiring one in play doesn't justify 4 slots for him. With a similar logic, I hope we can optimize exactly how many of each creature/spell we should run in the MD.

I think the core that is optimized is:

4 BoP
3 Welder
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Reaper King
1 Grim Poppet
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Rofellos

Questionable slots:
4th Tarmogoyf
(3 Goyfs might be all we need, but it doesn't justify not running the 4th Goyf for random wins).


2-4 Qasali Pridemage
(I don't justify this since our aggro plan is really Goyf, and not Zoo beats)

1 Genesis
(I can see him coming in with Qasali being used)

1 Jaya
(I think she's strong to be in the optimized shell above. She is pinpoint removal via burn or REB and she has burn reach to end games.)

1 Sundering Titan
(I play him mainly against control and to end games faster)

1 Sharuum
(win-more IMO. Uncastable outside of BoP and if you're recurring some artifact, it means that you spent way too much resource on dumping goodies in your yard. If there's goodies in your yard, Welder does as much as Sharuum does without having the problem being hardcasted. If you're Welding Sharuum, then something is very wrong since you can easily weld out the target that you want Sharuum to bring in)

1 Duplicant
(Grim Poppet answers most creatures by either killing them or shrinking them small enough that you're safe. Against Reanimator, Duplicant might be better but that meta is non-existent in general)

1 Heap Doll
(Good against Loam/Survival/Dredge. A one-off is possible but if you're really facing against Survival, you should have an advantage because Welder Survival is the most synergistic Survival deck out there. If you're facing Loam, then instead of stopping their loam engine, you should go straight for Reaper King/Painterstone wins or Painter/Jaya. The only matchup where he's really relevant is against Dredge, but you can usually cheat on Dredge by blasting your own creatures if you run REB in the MD, but that gameplan is too slow. If you suspect Dredge in your meta, then 1 Heap Doll should be in the MD)

1 Triskelion
(at least in my testing, there was never once where I needed to burn my opponents. There are times where I needed to ping creatures, but Grim Poppet does it better since it not only kills 1/1-3/3 but it shrinks 5/6 goyfs down to 2/3s.)

1 Magus of the Moon
(Never used him. My meta is mostly monocolor Merfolks, burn, Pox, some Thresh and Ultimate Walker and Loam. In most of those decks that run multicolor, he's easy to answer with float W off Tundra or Seismic Assault. Definitely a MD slot if your meta is filled with 4c Countertop and ITF etc)

1 Teeg
(I think Teeg doesn't stop combo as well as Canonist does. emdlin has mentioned in the storm thread that he doesn't fear Teeg at all. Teeg doesn't stop the ANT player from MTutoring or InfTutoring up bounce but Canonist at least buys another turn for their answer against the hate bear. If you dropped 2 Canonist. They're going to have a hard time if they don't have Virtue's Ruin/Echoing Truth etc. If you need Teeg to win the control matchup, then I can't justify it because this deck has a good control matchup since if you resolve either Welder or Survival, you're in great shape with the card advantage. Welder also allows you to cheat things in play without casting them. Other than that, Canonist is an artifact that slows down ANT, Enchantress, Zoo).

One last thing that we should consider, was the old discussion on Vial Survival.

Our vialable targets are:
1cc
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
4 BoP

2cc
4 Tarmogoyf
1-4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Painter's Servant
1 Rofellos

3cc
1 Squee
1 Jaya

I can't justify vial though. We can already cheat things without casting them. So vialing in a Goyf/Painter isn't that much of a big deal I guess.

[sco0ter]

I am not sure about the LEDs... since they are really only good, when you have Painter and Grindstone or one of them and Welder in play and the other in hand.
Seems very situational to me.

I am not sure about 3 Welders only. The same argument you brought up could be said for Painter's Servant. (which are even tutorable wirth E.Tutor)
I often saw my Welder sworded or in grave. Without Witness it is even worse.

[GGoober]

Scooter, having thought about it. I'm still up for 3 SDT over 3 LED since it gives a better topdeck/mid game.

I'll test LED around outside of the tourney to see how it goes.

I disagree with 4 Welders, but it's playstyle. I'm assuming you play Welders without Survival or Anger in the yard. I usually only play my Welders if:

1) I want to bait removal to keep Painter alive
2) I have Anger in the yard so I can activate him without worrying that he dies
3) I have Survival in hand/play.

The point is playing Welder without any of the 3 motives above is a waste. Welder pretty much dies to everything, and there's absolutely no way he will stay in play. Therefore Welder can only be abused in Survival lists. If you played a Welder just for the sake of playing Welder, you're asking that he gets killed, especially when you're setting up. The best and only time to play Welder is to be able to use his abilities when your opponent is hellbent so you can try to stick him in play, or play welder if you have anger, so just 1 activation is enough and all it takes.

As far as I play the deck, I use Welder as a tool to support Painterstone combo. And if I get him to stick off a Survival or use him just once with Survival, he's served his purpose for the deck.

Is your list more reliant on Welder? Maybe changing the playstyle would help but that depends on the decklist you're running. What's your current decklist like?

[HPB_Eggo]

HPB_Eggo, if you have the chance, test the decks out in tourneys on MWS and post your experiences.

I've mostly been playing this in my own meta, so trying it online may be a good idea.


Scooter, having thought about it. I'm still up for 3 SDT over 3 LED since it gives a better topdeck/mid game.

What we need to learn is whether card quality or mana acceleration is what the deck needs. I'm thinking that, with mana acceleration in the form of Birds, Rofellos, and, in some ways, Goblin Welder, card quality is probably better than additional mana acceleration.

I concur with three Welders being the right number. However, going below four 'goyf with no other comparable beaters that can easily be cast is probably not a good idea. RGBSA and Surviving Bant can go below four because they play other beaters that are, while not necessarily as good, completely capable of ending the game by themselves. We simply don't have any replacements for 'goyf in the deck atm.

My verdict on Jaya is that she should be cut completely. Getting her is almost always reliant on Survival, and I would rather be using Reaper King than Jaya in every case I have pulled her out so far.

Finally, Vial is probably not a good idea. There is very little reason to want to be holding onto our guys until the end of the opponents turn, which is one of the real strengths of Vial, and we can side in blasts against blue to make counterspells matter less.

[sco0ter]

Reaper King rocks:

It is now the Precombat Main Phase
sco0ter plays Windswept Heath from Hand
sco0ter taps Forest
sco0ter plays Grindstone from Hand
sco0ter taps Taiga
sco0ter plays Goblin Welder from Hand
<GlennF.> Ok
sco0ter taps Tropical Island
sco0ter plays Squee, Goblin Nabob from Hand
<GlennF.> Ok
sco0ter is looking its Library...
sco0ter puts Reaper King into play from Library
sco0ter puts Squee, Goblin Nabob to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter taps Windswept Heath
sco0ter puts Windswept Heath to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter's life total is now 10 (-1)
sco0ter puts Tropical Island into play from Library
sco0ter taps Tropical Island
<GlennF.> Ok
sco0ter puts Shield Sphere into play from Library
sco0ter shuffles library
sco0ter stops looking its Library...
sco0ter puts Reaper King to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter puts Shield Sphere to Hand from Play
sco0ter plays Shield Sphere from Hand
sco0ter taps Taiga
sco0ter plays Goblin Welder from Hand
<GlennF.> Ok
sco0ter taps Goblin Welder
sco0ter puts Reaper King into play from Graveyard
sco0ter puts Shield Sphere to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter taps Goblin Welder
sco0ter puts Grindstone to Graveyard from Play
sco0ter puts Grim Poppet into play from Graveyard
GlennF. puts Tarmogoyf to Graveyard from Play
Grim Poppet now has 3 (+3) counters.
Grim Poppet now has 2 (-1) counters.
GlennF. puts Dark Confidant to Graveyard from Play
Grim Poppet now has 1 (-1) counters.
GlennF. puts Eternal Witness to Graveyard from Play
Grim Poppet now has 0 (-1) counters.
GlennF. puts Noble Hierarch to Graveyard from Play
It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
sco0ter taps Grim Poppet
sco0ter taps Grim Poppet
sco0ter taps Reaper King
sco0ter taps Reaper King
GlennF.'s life total is now 10 (-10)
<sco0ter> End my turn
It is now turn 12 (GlennF.)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
GlennF. untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
GlennF. draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
<GlennF.> Thinking
GlennF. plays Savannah from Hand
GlennF. taps Savannah
GlennF. taps Savannah
GlennF. taps Bayou
<GlennF.> gg & cu, nop reason to play vs trashpiles.
<System> Player Lost


In fact he is best in letting this deck look like a "trashpile" to make opponents even more pissed when they lose to him.
Otherwise I am still not sure, if he is worth the slot over Duplicant.

[HPB_Eggo]

Otherwise I am still not sure, if he is worth the slot over Duplicant.

Reaper King destroys things other than creatures. This is really very important when playing against, for instance, Countertop; enchantments, artifacts, and Planeswalkers all go down to Reaper King while Duplicant sits around and fails to do anything. Its the flexibility that makes Reaper King better than Duplicant or Sundering Titan.

[sco0ter]

Yes, I know what he does...

The thing is, that he is slower, usually by one turn. You need more setup (more mana, more Scarecrows, more Welder actions) to get it's effect, while Duplicant has it's unconditional Cip trigger.

[GGoober]

Here's my report for today. The new GRw version is so much better than GRu.



Tournament 25: 09/13/09
1st/2nd: Chris Z with Welderstone Survival and Jeff with Ultimate Walker
3rd/4th: David with GRB Aggro Loam and Eddi with Death and Taxes

Participants:
Jeff - Ultimate Walker
Will - Affinity
Mike G. - Pox
'lil Chris - UGR aggro control?
Eddie - Death and Taxes
Eugene - UGbw Countertop
Chris Z - Welderstone Survival
David - GRB Aggro Loam
Drew - Imperial Painter
Last guy?

Decklist:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rofellos
4 Painter's Servant
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Jaya
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King

3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grindstone
4 Survival of the Fittest

SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
5 REBs
2 Krosan Grip
1 Heap Doll
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle


Match 1: Will with Affinity.
Game 1:
He won the die roll and I kept a good hand of ETutor, Survival, SDT, lands. He went first and before I could do anything, went nuts on turn 3 with double Myr, plating and double frogmite.

Game 2:
-3 SDT, -1 Sundering Titan, +2 Grips, +2 Needle
He probably kept a hand of 3 Plating. I gripped one Plating and resolved Welder, which kept his board off when he swings in as I weld his creatures out. Welder bought time for me to Paintergrind him.

Game 3:
I kept a weak hand of ETutor, Grindstone but drew into a Painter, and went off fast.


Match 2: Eddie with Death and Taxes
Game 1:
As usual, I lose the die roll. I kept a hand of Survival, SDT, lands and stuff. He plays Canonist and I delay Survival, sculpting my hand. I didn't want to risk losing Survival to Oring and since he was playing slowly, I followed as well, and resolved Survival with GGG to tutor for enough targets in cased he Oringed. He cataclysmed leaving him with Jitte, Canonist, Land and he drops a vial. I'm left with Survival, Taiga and Tree of Tales. I proceed to grab Pridemage to settle Vial, and the game drags a little longer with him stuck on 1 land unable to equip Jitte and me not drawing lands as well. Eventually, I get my lands and go off with Grim Poppet killing his board.

Game 2: -1 Sundering Titan, -3 SDT, +2 Needle, +2 Grips
I can't remember our matches since I played Eddie twice today, but I believe this was fast because he didn't have the removal for Painterstone, which I happened to draw, and resolve a Welder as well.


Match 3: David with Aggro Loam
We drew into Top 4, but playtested a couple of games. We ended up being 2-2, 2-2 pre and post board. Pretty even matchup. If Loam gets the shit, you lose. I got wastelocked on turn 1. If Survival sticks, you should win. Either way, Pridemage was MVP against Chalice and Seismic Assault. Since Loam is not a blue deck, you should recklessly try to grab up Painterstone. Post board 3 Crypts and 2 Grips help a lot. Pithing Needle also works against Wastelocks and Seismic Assault.

Match 4: Eddie with Death and Taxes
Game 1:
This time, the games were more exciting. He resolved Mangara and Karakas, but only used him once for the rest of the game. I guess my deck was putting out a ton of combo-pressure that he cannot afford to lose tempo. I got Survival out unanswered and happily tutored for my targets until he hits Stonecloaker and removes a couple of critical cards off my yard. I try to be careful with not losing squee and he gets double cloaker out after a cataclysm and starts beating me. I successfully keep Survival and set up Quirion Ranger. I weld Tree of Tales for Reaper King, in response he flashes Stonecloaker. I tell him that the 2 targets are no longer legal so the exchange is not made. I used Quirion Ranger and discarded Grim Poppet to weld him in. He resolves and I blew up a Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker on the board. The game turned in my favor after he blinks Oring on my previous Welder to Oring Survival. I get 2 Welders out and Grim Poppet, which translates to him having no attacking force. We move onto game 2.

Game 2:
I kept a pretty strong hand but with no green: BoP, SDT, ETutor, Survival, Plateau, Mountain, Painter's Servant. I topdeck into a Taiga and the game ended fast with Paintergrind.


Match 5: Jeff with Ultimate Walker
We split but playtested two games. I won both games off the back of Sundering Titan. From my experience, Landstill/Walker control decks are solid but have trouble dealing with multiple bombs. He runs Fire//Ice so I have to try to prevent myself from getting two-for-1ed. I bait Goyfs and Grindstones to resolve Survival, and instead on getting Squee online, I chose to go straight for Welder Titan. Turns out it worked well as I destroyed 3 lands per activation. Haste helps too.

The second game ended similarly as well. Ultimate Walker's inherent flaw is that it wins pretty slow, i.e. it wins with the ultimates of planeswalker (hence it's name? LOL) with the exception of Elspeth.


Comments:
I think this deck is finally begin to take some shape. I would like to thank people on the source for paying attention and contributing to this, mainly sc00ter and HPB_Eggo. HPB_Eggo came up with the janky idea of Reaper King, but it's most definitely a great card in this deck. I used Reaper King to destroy Elspeth @7 counters.

The white build is definitely the right direction, and ETutor has never been more powerful in any other deck. ETutor in this deck almost seems like MTutor in ANT.

From playtesting, I conclude that Jaya is a bad MD slot. Thinking about it, she's really too expensive. If I want to play and use her on the same turn, I would require: 3RRRG, and the triple red makes it impossible in the deck. For the same purpose, Survivaling Reaper King and Welding and playing Painter's Servant is much faster, you only need: 2RGG.

Jaya is coming out and I'm giving her a chance in the SB, but sadly, she might just be totally out of the deck. The deck has a chance against Dredge match one since you can also get a god hand with Painterstone, and has a pretty decent chance post-board.

The deck does innately well against blue-based deck postboard with 6 REBs. Pre-board, you need to rely on baiting carefully. Against Countertop deck, the white-version is weaker since it's susceptible to 1-2cc. Run more grips in a countertop heavy meta, and try to resolve Pridemages.

When playing the deck, I'm generally unafraid on any form of aggresive aggro e.g. Affinity, Goblins. This is because with the power of Survival tutoring, you can easily get out of a nasty hole. The main aggro decks that give this problems are discard and LD-based Eva decks. SDT in those matches help a lot more. Oh, and SDT is much better than Chrome Mox. The card tutoring is good and although drawing multiple SDT sucks, you can set yourself up with Welder.

Combo is still a bad matchup, but hopefully with 3-4 Canonist and 6 REB you should do okay. I would side out the Welder Package and play straight up painter and try to race combo by disrupting them with REBs and Canonist.

All in all, the deck felt very natural to play, and more importantly, it's a super fun deck. I'm loving Welder more and I think this is one of the deck that he fits in in Legacy. Also, my SB options were great, since Crypts and Needles can all serve as Welder fodder. So, there wasn't anything clunky at all, aside from Sundering Titan being bad against monocolored decks and Jaya being useless all day. Grim Poppet was MVP in my aggro matches.



@Reaper King: Don't cut him. He's the Vindicate Angel of the deck. And you know what's better? When your opponents bolt and Firespout your board with Reaper King and Painter and Grindstone, and you point out that Painter is a 2/4. He's such a janky card that people don't read him, and hence makes him even better for your opponents to try to bolt Painter. Reaper King is good. He's won (or stabilized) me 4/8 games today, hitting artifacts, Bob, Elspeth and Countryside Crusher. Scooter, 4 Painter and 1 Grim Poppet is enough scarecrows to support Reaper King. HPB_Eggo was playing a suboptimal list with too much scarecrows (Scuttlemut is just strictly worse than BoP and Heap Doll and Heap Doll is strictly a SB card). Painter is easy to cast anyway, and getting Welder, Reaper King, Painter involves 2RGG, which is not too difficult by the time you're going off.

[HPB_Eggo]

The list you played looks pretty solid. I definitely agree that Jaya should move to the SB.

The only thing I can disagree with is MD Sundering Titan. I've played with him quite a bit, and, with the exception of something like 4C Landstill, I always find myself grabbing and setting up Reaper King first. That suggests a SB slot to me, although I'm not sure what to put in the MD; for myself, the two Heap Dolls are solid slots, but that's mostly a meta decision.

I also think Genesis needs either a MD or SB slot, as it will sit there and win the game against control. True, graveyard hate kills it, but that doesn't make it bad.

I'm still looking at seeing whether LED makes the cut, so I'm going to test something along these lines, using your list as a starting point...

-1 Titan, -1 Jaya, -1 Teeg, +3 LED

I'll let you know how it goes.

[GGoober]

Yeah I forgot to mention changes I'd make to the deck after today's testing:

-1 Jaya
-1 Teeg
-1 Mountain

+1 Tree of Tales
+1 Genesis
+1 Duplicant/Triskelion/Heap Doll/not sure, probably Shield Sphere to allow Welder to go off.

I think of all the games I played, I didn't want or desire LED. But feel free to test it. I have a feeling it's going to be a win-more card.

I like Titan in the MD, since it wins aggro races. It's great against 3 colored decks. You don't really need to go greedy on 4 colors. I think we need 1 Shield Sphere to enable Welder.