Which cards define the format?

[DrewliusMaximus]

A while ago, someone who plays Legacy only occasionally said confidently to me that "Counterbalance is THE defining card in Legacy." I agreed that it is certainly one of them, but I contended that there are some equally significant cards that define the format. I am sure that there has been a thread done on this before, but what the hell...here's another one. What are the defining cards for Legacy?

I'll throw out something like:

Ad Nauseam
Dark Ritual

Brainstorm
Counterbalance
Force of Will

Tarmogoyf
Survival of the Fittest

Goblin Lackey
Magus/Blood Moon

Sword to Plowshares

Sensei's Divining Top

Wasteland
* Fetches and Duals of course

So what about stuff like Bob, Thoughtsieze, Tombstalker, Stifle, Daze, Life from the Loam, Lightning Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Aether Vial, and Engineered Explosives? Are they "format-defining", or just "staples"? Or are the two the same?

What makes a card "format-defining"? I'm thinking that you consider how frequently a card gets played of course, and also the extent to which that card's presence limits other card choices when trying to build a competitive deck. What else is required for a card to be format-defining?

[THEchubbymuffin]

Standstill. The card that defines the format should be the most common Maindecked cards in the deck to beat category. And land tax. Legacy would not be where it is today without the constant unbanning of land tax discussions.

[ThatGuyThere]

What makes a card "format-defining"?

The extent to which that card's presence limits other card choices when trying to build a competitive deck.

This. Counterbalance / Counter-Top, Tarmogoyf, and Blood Moon, for instance, each require certain things of decks that face them, that you either adapt your deck to, or you can't win.

Some other potentially "format-defining" cards include Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Swords to Plowshares, and Force of Will. Some that aren't currently played might include In the Eye of Chaos or Nether Void - if they find the right deck, they could become 'format-defining', because of their type of effect.

Note I would say "staples" are cards that don't require decks to "adapt or die", and are simply good-to-great examples of their kind of card - Bob is a great card-draw / creature, but you don't have to build your deck aware that a deck you're going to play against runs Bob, and change your design to deal with that fact.

[MTG-Fan]

I would say Force of Will is *the* defining card of Legacy.

[MMogg]

I would say Force of Will is *the* defining card of Legacy.

Indeed, it's probably one of the (non-power) defining cards of Vintage as well.

I find it difficult to compare currently ubiquitous cards like Tarmogoyf or Sensei's Divining Top and older cards that have been around for 10 years, like STP and FoW. :confused:

[emidln]

1) Insane Card Quality

Brainstorm
Ponder
SDT

2) Cheating on Mana

Goblin Lackey
Dark Ritual / Rite of Flame / Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal / Chrome Mox
Exploration / Manabond
Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors
Aether Vial

3) Good, plentiful tutoring

Fetchlands
Mystical Tutor / Worldly Tutor / Lim-Dul's Vault
Survival of the Fittest/Natural Order
Intuition
Burning Wish

4) Strong Control Elements

Force of Will
Counterbalance
Duress / Thoughtseize
Chalice of the Void

5) Mono Blue Mana Denial
Stifle
Wasteland / Rishadan Port
Back to Basics

[THEchubbymuffin]

Now that i think of it, the defining card of legacy should be Tropical Island. Vintage could be Underground Sea?

[MTG-Fan]

Now if you're talking about the *pillars* of the format, I'd consider these as the pillars of Legacy:

1.) AEther Vial. Nothing defines aggro decks as much as this one artifact.

2.) Force of Will. The card that defines control in the format.

3.) Tarmogoyf. The most efficient creature in the format, played by practically everything that needs a cheap beater.

4.) Ancient Tomb / (City). One of the best fast mana engines in the format, the cornerstone of all of the Chalice-based decks and the Stax decks.

5.) Wasteland. This is the defining *land* of Legacy, imho. In other formats like Extended and Standard, building a strategy around a land is perfectly fine, because you'll rarely ever run into any LD. In Legacy, this one card, Wasteland, prevents you from ever relying on any non-basic land as the cornerstone of your strategy.

[Bardo]

Fetch Lands (Onslaught)
Dual Lands (A/B/U/R)

[Jak]

1. Dual Lands

2. Fetchlands

3. Tarmogoyf

4. Force of Will

5. Counterbalance

[Elfrago]

In random order:

Fetchlands: Fetchlands completely changed manabases, with them you can have a stable manabase and still play three-four colors. This flexbility was unthinkable before.

Wasteland: Wasteland does the exact opposite job. It punishes you for playing too many colors and keeps 3-4-5 color decks in check. Just look at past extended seasons, where fetchlands and RAV duals allowed to play things like 5-color Zoo (a 5 color aggro!) and Whatever Level Blue (a 5 color control!) unpunished. Wasteland compltely nullifies those strategies (and yes, it's a good thing).

Swords to Plowshares : it's the removal of choice in the format. You can't expend too many resources for a creature, you could see all your efforts nullified by a single W mana.

Tarmogoyf: Best guy in the format. Every creature in the format must have a fighting chanche against him in the red zone, have good abilities outside of the red zone (for example Dark Confidant) or be part of a strong tribe.

Force of Will: Broken starts would be too stupid without, just look at Belcher.

Counterbalance: best soft-lock in the format, both cards are not useless on their own and easy to achieve casting cost. It's blue too, and blue is busted. Play it or have a plan against it.

Tendrils of Agony: Completely redefined combo decks. Being able of going-off without having a specific card in hand is huge. Two cards combo now must be really good to deserve play.

Notable omissions: Krosan Grip, Sensei's Divining Top.

[Digital Devil]

I think there are cards that properly define the format, and others which you have to consider before creating a deck. You have to distribute well the mana costs of your spells if you don't want to be shut down by Deed/CBalance/Cotv. You have to make a stable manabase if you don't want your nightmares filled with Blood Moons while you're watching them from a Wasteland. You have to consider Force and Stp before using all of your resources on a single card. Then, you have to consider your opponent can and will play efficient and low-cc creatures before building an aggro deck.

But the cards which define the format are IMHO fetchlands. They allow deck splashing and make it worthwile. Imagine what Legacy NLU would look like without the Onslaught lands. Speaking generally, without them, Goyf would be much more difficult to splash (although not impossible), and would usually be -1-1. Brainstorm would still be strong, but it would not be insane as it is with fetchlands. It would be easier to play around Counter/Top. Zoo would be weaker, and Loam/Crucible would lose some of their power. That said, I'm not complaining about fetchlands, because I like my opponent to get stuck on a single Blood Moon. Plus, Magic w/o fetchlands would be boring.

[FoolofaTook]

Force of Will
Brainstorm
Island
Wasteland
Tarmogoyf
Flooded Strand
Mountain
Polluted Delta
Swords to Plowshares

Right off of deckcheck.net. Those are the power 9 of Legacy and appear most often in top 8 lists, and by a wide margin based on the numbers. The 10th card in the list is Daze and it appears at about 70% of the frequency of number 9 and half the frequency of Force of Will.

The defining cards are the ones that get played the most successfully. That Force of Will and Brainstorm get played more often than any land should tell us volumes about where they stand as the rulers of the format.

[DragoFireheart]

I would say Force of Will is *the* defining card of Legacy.


I wouldn't say that, considering it's also in Vintage.

I would say Brainstorm to be a better contender.

[Nessaja]

Right off of deckcheck.net. Those are the power 9 of Legacy and appear most often in top 8 lists, and by a wide margin based on the numbers. The 10th card in the list is Daze and it appears at about 70% of the frequency of number 9 and half the frequency of Force of Will.
2 things

You really can't put basic lands in a power 9 or format defining card. They're in each format, they don't define the format.

Secondly, these numbers are historic, taking in account every top 8 since the start of Legacy. I think that in the current metagame the top 9 might look different. Especially the rankings. It is not uncommon lately to have more Tarmogoyfs then FoW and/or Brainstorm (like in chicago, 6 vs 3)

[FoolofaTook]

2 things

You really can't put basic lands in a power 9 or format defining card. They're in each format, they don't define the format.

Secondly, these numbers are historic, taking in account every top 8 since the start of Legacy. I think that in the current metagame the top 9 might look different. Especially the rankings. It is not uncommon lately to have more Tarmogoyfs then FoW and/or Brainstorm (like in chicago, 6 vs 3)

I think including basic lands if they're often played is the only way to clearly define an eternal format. Islands are played more often in top 8 decks than any of the blue multi-lands or any of the blue fetches. That's a very profound finding in a meta that is fairly hostile to mono-color decks and in which blue, in particular, likes to splash several colors for power.

This is a heavily blue meta at the moment if you look at the top 8's and the clearest indication of that is that basic Islands are the third most played card. Not blue dual lands or fetches, basic islands. What would you have guessed the odds were of that if you didn't look at the list?

[Nessaja]

Well first off, that may, or may not be true. As said, these are numbers from the start of Legacy. I think the distribution changed.

Including cards that are allowed to be played more then 4 times just makes it an unfair competition. You can't really conclude that Islands are played more in the top decks or if there were a couple of mono blue decks in there that skewed the numbers. One MUC with 20 Islands is already the equivalent of 5 thresh decks with 4 islands.

Other then that, the lands by no means define the format. You can't extrapolate any conclusions out of islands being played often. And actually, the same does count for duals and fetch, even though they're crucial for the format they don't give insight on dominant strategies, only colors used. And in fact looking at that top 9 it certainly doesn't give a good indication of the current metagame at all.

And to further put emphasis on my point, lets look at the Vintage top 9:

1 Force of Will
2 Polluted Delta
3 Brainstorm
4 Island
5 Flooded Strand
6 Underground Sea
7 Wasteland
8 Mana Drain
9 Duress

With 6 cards in common, the two formats must be nearly identical.

[FoolofaTook]

And in fact looking at that top 9 it certainly doesn't give a good indication of the current metagame at all.

Actually it gives a perfect reading of what works in the current meta. There are 9 decks in the DTB forum currently (not including the 3 locked Threshold threads) and Wasteland is in 6 of them. Force of Will, Tarmogoyf and Island are in 5 of them. Brainstorm, Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta and Swords to Plowshares are in 4. Mountain is in 3.

You couldn't really get a better spread of the power 9 than that unless they all inhabited just a few decks.

[(nameless one)]

i would say wasteland

why not force of will and the like?

force of will defines eternal format (vintage and legacy)

wasteland sucks in vintage but is damn good in legacy

why not counterbalance or sensei's divining top? although a lot of competitive deck uses them, you just cant fit this duo in all decks. wasteland can be run from decks that run counter-top combo to goblins

but you did mentioned cards... heres what i think based on the colour/type:

land: wasteland/fetchlands/alphaduals
artifact: aether vial (could be sensei's divining top)
white: swords to plowshare? honestly, i dont know
blue: force of will (hands down)
red: goblin lackey/blood moon
green: krosan grip/tarmogoyf (although natrual order is on the rise)


creature: tarmogoyf (hands down)
sorcery: theres a lot out there
instant: force of will (hands down)
enchantment: counterbalance and lots of close seconds
*planeswalker: (time will tell)

[DrewliusMaximus]

Force of Will
Brainstorm
Island
Wasteland
Tarmogoyf
Flooded Strand
Mountain
Polluted Delta
Swords to Plowshares

Right off of deckcheck.net. Those are the power 9 of Legacy and appear most often in top 8 lists, and by a wide margin based on the numbers. The 10th card in the list is Daze and it appears at about 70% of the frequency of number 9 and half the frequency of Force of Will.

The defining cards are the ones that get played the most successfully. That Force of Will and Brainstorm get played more often than any land should tell us volumes about where they stand as the rulers of the format.

Deckcheck is one of the best data sets we have, and I'd say those nine cards do a pretty good job of communicating what Legacy is about. But there do seem to be some other cards that should make the list, like Counterbalance. Maybe a more comprehensive list of top-8's or just limiting the data to more recent results would make the Legacy "Power Nine" more accurately reflect what is format defining at a given time. But isn't there more to consider than just prevalence in top-8's when deciding which cards define Legacy?


You have to distribute well the mana costs of your spells if you don't want to be shut down by Deed/CBalance/Cotv. You have to make a stable manabase if you don't want your nightmares filled with Blood Moons while you're watching them from a Wasteland. You have to consider Force and Stp before using all of your resources on a single card. Then, you have to consider your opponent can and will play efficient and low-cc creatures before building an aggro deck.

I personally think that considerations like these should be a part of deciding which cards define the format in addition to appearances in top-8's.

[SilverGreen]

A while ago, someone who plays Legacy only occasionally said confidently to me that "Counterbalance is THE defining card in Legacy." I agreed that it is certainly one of them, but I contended that there are some equally significant cards that define the format. I am sure that there has been a thread done on this before, but what the hell...here's another one. What are the defining cards for Legacy?

I'll throw out something like:

Ad Nauseam
Dark Ritual

Brainstorm
Counterbalance
Force of Will

Tarmogoyf
Survival of the Fittest

Goblin Lackey
Magus/Blood Moon

Sword to Plowshares

Sensei's Divining Top

Wasteland
* Fetches and Duals of course

So what about stuff like Bob, Thoughtsieze, Tombstalker, Stifle, Daze, Life from the Loam, Lightning Bolt, Pernicious Deed, Aether Vial, and Engineered Explosives? Are they "format-defining", or just "staples"? Or are the two the same?

What makes a card "format-defining"? I'm thinking that you consider how frequently a card gets played of course, and also the extent to which that card's presence limits other card choices when trying to build a competitive deck. What else is required for a card to be format-defining?

As "format-defining cards" we should think of cards that create critical deckbuilding restraints, and make the format forge around them, not just cards played widely (those are the staples). They can even be niche cards, but even their existence affects the way the decks are built and the game is played, and make people play around them all the time. When you think of a format-defining card, you probably guess "what would I do to beat/don't lose to X?".

As format-defining cards I call:

-Tarmogoyf: THE format-defining card of the format, the threat most universally adopted, even in decks that couldn't run it previously; the card that makes people do splashes just for it; that outclasses an unsumontable number of other previously played cards; that demands answers from all and every deck played. A position once occupied by Goblin Lackey.

-Wasteland, Moons, Stifle & Company: With the former in a higher position. Every competitive Legacy deck MUST take mana cripple into account, under penalty of not being even able to play its game.

-Counterbalance & Sensei's Divining Top: See Tarmogoyf.

To a lesser extent:

-Aether Vial

-Ad Nauseam & Tendrils of Agony



Staples are the best and most universally adopted support and/or build-around cards available, the cards that make possible to the format-defining cards to shine (or the cards that hose them). These are the cards every Legacy player trying to build a good collection must look for. The format has lots of staples, but a few of them are a little more worth of note than others. For instance, Force of Will is Legacy's über-premier staple card. Many will disagree and call it a format-defining card, but in reality it isn't what it does. But it is the card that will better support and/or answer many of the format-defining cards, that will stitch them together or avoid they make their thing unimpeded. Other doubtless staples are the Dual and Fetch Lands, Swords to Plowshares (and now Path to Exile), Krosan Grip, Dark Ritual & storm's fast mana cards, Mishra's Factory, Standstill, Daze, Chalice of the Void, Natural Order/Survival of the Fittest, Engineered Explosives, the blue cantrips, Thoughtseize, Rishadan Port, the 2-mana lands, and others, and others...

[Rizso]

imo the cards that defines legacy are the cards you always have to have in you mind when building your deck, manabase and your sideboard.

Nonebasic land hosers, price of progress, wasteland, bloodmoon effects.

spell hosers based on cmc, Counterbalance and chalice of the void

Tarmogoyf, cos of this creature many othervise less useful cards are really good, smother, treads of disloyalty. But also cards that win tarmo standstill are good cos of if.

The graveyard abusers, makes people play crypts, relics

Storm and combo co