Planeswalker + Quicksilver Elemental combo

[HdH_Cthulhu]

speaking of absurd combos,

does

Mycosinth Lattice
March of the Machines
Quicksilver Elemental
+ any Planeswalker

work to let Quicksilver use planeswalkers abilitys at instand speed and how often i want???

[Koby]

I'm not sure if it's instant speed, but you can definitly use the abilities.

I'm not sure exactly if you are able to use the [-] abilities without putting loyalty counters first, but you are able to use [+] abilities enough times to use the [-] abilities.

EDIT: This works on MTGO, so that's all I could test.

[Willoe]

speaking of absurd combos,

does

Mycosinth Lattice
March of the Machines
Quicksilver Elemental
+ any Planeswalker

work to let Quicksilver use planeswalkers abilitys at instand speed and how often i want???

You can go even more nuts by using Mycosynth Lattice, March of the Machines, Experiment Kraj and a walker. After putting a +1/+1 counter on the Artifact Creature Planeswalker, this will let Kraj do all the abilities a desired amount of times as the "one ability per turn" rule only applies to Planeswalkers. Suddenly, Chandra Nalaar becomes rather awesome in combination with these three cards.

Now, the big question:
Is there any easy way to put these four permanents into play? One can of course switch March with Opalescense and switch Lattice with Enchanted Evening. Then you are able to grab the cards with Conflux, since Opal is the white card, evening is the blue card, Kraj counts as the green card, and Chandra is the red one. We can then grab a black card to help accelerating into this very potent and extremely Legacy-playable combo. What could it be then?

[luma]

To put it all together: If you can get a Planeswalker's abilities on a non-planeswalker (using the aforementioned combos), you can use its abilities as often as you want (if you have enough loyalty counters to use the minus abilities, but that shouldn't be a problem) and as an instant. This is because the rule saying "Only once per turn as a sorcery" only applies to Planeswalker permanents.

[JeroenC]

Use this in Hypergenesis combo.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Thx! But i noticed that my combo only works on paper. If i land Mycosinth Lattice and March of the Machines i have already won...

[Koby]

Float a blue mana :)

[Malchar]

Does anyone have any rulings to support this? Here's my collection of rules to suggest that this doesn't work:


306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.

306.5c The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it.

306.7a The cost to activate an ability of a planeswalker is to put on or remove from that planeswalker a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the ability’s cost.

[Koby]

Does anyone have any rulings to support this? Here's my collection of rules to suggest that this doesn't work:

I have verified this does work on MTGO - which has a fairly strict rules engine.

I have witnessed that counters do in fact get added when using [+] abilities, and are removed when using [-] abilities. I have not verified whether you may activate the [-] while not having sufficient counters on the card.

[Malchar]

Alright cool. I like the combo, but I fear that it might not be intended behavior. The rules don't exactly bar this interaction, but it feels like it's in a grey-area right now.

[cdr]

It's not a "gray area". It works.

The relevant rule which you did not quote is:

306.7. A player may activate an ability of a planeswalker any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of its activated abilities have been activated that turn

Only planeswalkers have this restriction, so if you can get a planeswalker ability on a non-planeswalker, go nuts.

[Malchar]

The problem that I had with the interaction was the fact that only planeswalkers can have loyalty, and the abilities need to manipulate a resource called "loyalty." I'm going to try checking on MTG-L for good measure.

Edit:
I found this while digging through MTG-L:

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0710A&L=MTGRULES-L&P=R890&1=MTGRULES-L&9=A&I=-3&K=1&X=4A332A55C65B263934&Y=malchar2%40seductive.com&d=no+match%3Bmatch%3Bmatches&z=4


> 10. You use Quicksilver Elemental's ability targeting a PW creature.
> Can you play the Elemental's borrowed abilities any time you could
> play an instant? Are you restricted to playing them once per turn?
> (As in, if you use Quicksilver Elemental's ability on Ajani, can you
> gain a million life in one turn?)

Currently, yes. The QE does not have the timing restrictions of a
PW, so those abilities can be played many times per turn.

--
Gavin Duggan, L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep

[luma]

The problem that I had with the interaction was the fact that only planeswalkers can have loyalty, and the abilities need to manipulate a resource called "loyalty." I'm going to try checking on MTG-L for good measure.

No, the abilities manipulate a resource called "loyalty counters", which can be on any permanent (not in any way different from charge counters, time counters and such). Only planeswalkers have a characteristic called "loyalty", but as the rule you quoted states, " The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it." Furthermore, the rules state that the cost for activating a planeswalker's ability is adding or removing loyalty counters:


306.7a The cost to activate an ability of a planeswalker is to put on or remove from that planeswalker a certain number of loyalty counters, as shown by the loyalty symbol in the ability’s cost.


A planeswalker's abilities could as well be written as:
"Put two loyalty counters on Jace Beleren: Each player draws a card.
Remove a loyalty counter from Jace Beleren: Draw a card.
Remove ten loyalty counters from Jace Beleren: Target player puts the top twenty cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard."

[Koby]

A planeswalker's abilities could as well be written as:
"Put two loyalty counters on Jace Beleren: Each player draws a card.
Remove a loyalty counter from Jace Beleren: Draw a card.
Remove ten loyalty counters from Jace Beleren: Target player puts the top twenty cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard."

Thus, you would still need to activate Quicksilver Elemental's "Each player draws a card" ability 5 times before you can use the "Mill 20 cards" ability.

Works much better on a Nicol Bolas IMO.

[Valtrix]

Well, if you activate them at instant speed you can just stack those draws and then use the ultimate anyway because putting counters on is a cost. Those draws never need to actually resolve, so I think Jace is probably a great option since you win right away (Since the draws will resolve when they actually have no library.)

EDIT: Sorry, sort of off topic for the rules.

[rufus]

There's also same-turn kills with:
Ajani Goldenmane
Chandra Nalaar
Sarkhan Vol
Tezzeret the Seeker

[parallax]

There's also same-turn kills with:
Ajani Goldenmane
Chandra Nalaar
Sarkhan Vol
Tezzeret the Seeker
I think you meant Ajani Vengeant.
Tezzeret only kills if you have the right artifacts in your deck, but why not, considering what you've gone through to get there.
And of course, Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker is the classiest way to kill with this combo.

[Nightmare]

We're done here.