Bitterblossom Stax

[MTG-Fan]

So I've always liked the Stax archetype, and the most successful and effective version of it in Legacy is by far the Armageddon Stax deck, in my opinion. Inspired by playing that deck and seeing, firsthand, how nasty Smokestack can be, I've decided to try to make a Black Stax deck.

Recently I've been toying with the concept of such a deck revolving around Bitterblossom. The Enchantment pumps out a steady stream of 1/1 Faeries, which enable you to feed Smokestack even more effectively than if you would only be using Crucible of Worlds, and it gives you another win condition after you've locked the board down.

Because the deck is playing black, it has access to bombs like Damnation and Nether Void. The former can reset the board if you're in a tight spot, and the latter is a mid/late-game lock piece that you can play after you already have Trinisphere/Crucible/Blossom on the board and you want to lock the opponent out of the game even further.

There is no Ghostly Prison in black, so I've decided to use Ensnaring Bridge to fulfill that role in the deck. In some ways it is superior to Prison - it stops everything unconditionally as long as you don't have any cards in your hand. On other hand, early-game, if you are facing a horde of 1/1s and 2/2s, it can be very subpar. I'm also playing an interesting card that provides extra synergy with Ensnaring Bridge: Bottled Cloister. The Cloister is a hard-lock against aggro decks if Ensnaring Bridge is in play: it makes your hand nonexistent during your opponent's turn, stopping all of his creatures from attacking, but during your turn it pops all of your cards back into your hand, so any creatures you might have in play are allowed to attack with impunity. It also draws a card for you every turn, making it card draw in a color and archetype that usually doesn't find a way to draw cards very easily.

The other usual suspects are there: Chalice, Trinisphere, Crucible, Factories, etc. The land base is pretty standard, except that because the deck is black, 2 Urborgs are often useful if you don't want to take any more hits from your Tombs or you need black from a Factory/Wasteland. The deck is also running a singleton Tomb of Urami as a late-game win condition. And I'm sure everyone who plays Stax is familiar with the deck's namesake, Smokestack.


So here's the decklist:

Lands:
10 x Swamp
4 x Ancient Tomb
3 x City of Traitors
3 x Wasteland
2 x Mishra's Factory
2 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 x Tomb of Urami

Acceleration
4 x Mox Diamond

Lock Pieces
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Trinisphere
3 x Smokestack
2 x Nether Void

Anti-Aggro Package
4 x Ensnaring Bridge
3 x Damnation

Card Advantage
4 x Bitterblossom
4 x Crucible of Worlds
3 x Bottled Cloister

Sideboard
4 x Engineered Plague
4 x Defense Grid
4 x Tormod's Crypt
3 x Pithing Needle


During playtesting, I've found that the deck is somewhat inconsistent, and probably more inconsistent than Armageddon Stax, but I think that with some tweaking it could have some potential. It definitely has some cool synergies that you don't get with other Stax builds.

Any suggestions or comments welcome.

[ClearSkies]

Do you have a life problem with Bitterblossom out?
With Ancient Tombs and random aggro pokes, you do lose a lot of life before you finally set your lock (or win).

What about the Abyss for creature removal?
When you have a hard lock, you can sacrifice the Abyss to Smokestack.

[MTG-Fan]

Yeah, lifeloss is definitely one of the problems in this deck. I mean, anything running Ancient Tomb has always had problems with lifeloss, but this even more so.

Abyss just seems too slow, and Smokestack accomplishes the same thing. Damnation clears the board faster if that's what you need.

[emidln]

When I tried this I ran into this exact problem. The solution I came up with was to try for more a token aggro-prison deck. I used Chalice and Trinisphere as disruiptive elements while trying to use Sylvan Library/Words of Wilding, Bitterblossom, Factory recursion, and Tarmogoyf to beat down. To deal with the lifeloss issue, we were setup to abuse 3-4x Umezawa's Jitte. As a nice bonus, you get to cut Smokestack (it's really hard to make work in legacy) for more Nether Void, which is the stone cold nuts against basically everything but Landstill (which you are pretty well equipped to deal with anyway).

The major problem with Ensnaring Bridge as protection (as opposed to Ghostly Prison/Propaganda and assuming you are intelligent enough to figure out that you absolutely need Sylvan Library to improve the rest of your deck's consistency and you need the library manip to not fuck you on Ensnaring Bridge) is that you have nothing to back it up. Your opponent can just throw down permanents to stay alive to an active Smokestack until they eot KGrip your Ensnaring Bridge (or until Merfolk plays a Standstill into their own Standstill to make you draw cards). Geddon Stax doesn't have this issue because what makes their Ghostly Prison effective is the real threat of mana denial by Smokestack/Wasteland OR other taxing effects OR Armageddon.

[HPB_Eggo]

There is no Ghostly Prison in black, so I've decided to use Ensnaring Bridge to fulfill that role in the deck.

Koskun Falls is a black Ghostly Prison for one more mana. The only possible problem is that you can't play it and Nether Void at the same time.

The Abyss has a similar problem.

[(nameless one)]

Contamination + Bitterblossom mono-black mana sources

[MTG-Fan]

Koskun Falls is a black Ghostly Prison for one more mana. The only possible problem is that you can't play it and Nether Void at the same time.

The Abyss has a similar problem.

Koskun Falls is pretty bad. It basically necessitates that you have Blossom in play before it's even *playable*.

Really, Ensnaring Bridge is not too bad if you can a.) manage to empty your hand fast or b.) get Bottled Cloister in play. I might experiment with 4 Mox Diamond to ensure a.) happens more often.

[emidln]

Koskun Falls is pretty bad. It's a completely unplayable card, imo.

Really, Ensnaring Bridge is not too bad if you can a.) manage to empty your hand fast or b.) get Bottled Cloister in play. I might experiment with 4 Mox Diamond to ensure a.) happens more often.

I check because I didn't ever think someone might not run the full four mox diamond, but you really need to play those. All of them. Consider cheating in a 5th with a 5th crucible if you have some shifty skills.

[puppektion]

Is it just me, or is this deck missing mox diamond?

[MTG-Fan]

When I tried this I ran into this exact problem. The solution I came up with was to try for more a token aggro-prison deck. I used Chalice and Trinisphere as disruiptive elements while trying to use Sylvan Library/Words of Wilding, Bitterblossom, Factory recursion, and Tarmogoyf to beat down. To deal with the lifeloss issue, we were setup to abuse 3-4x Umezawa's Jitte. As a nice bonus, you get to cut Smokestack (it's really hard to make work in legacy) for more Nether Void, which is the stone cold nuts against basically everything but Landstill (which you are pretty well equipped to deal with anyway).


Smokestack is one of the best cards in the deck. It's ridiculously good, even in Legacy, imo. If you can break the symmetry of a Stack (with Blossom or Crucible), it just completely takes the opponent out of the game.



The major problem with Ensnaring Bridge as protection (as opposed to Ghostly Prison/Propaganda and assuming you are intelligent enough to figure out that you absolutely need Sylvan Library to improve the rest of your deck's consistency and you need the library manip to not fuck you on Ensnaring Bridge) is that you have nothing to back it up. Your opponent can just throw down permanents to stay alive to an active Smokestack until they eot KGrip your Ensnaring Bridge (or until Merfolk plays a Standstill into their own Standstill to make you draw cards). Geddon Stax doesn't have this issue because what makes their Ghostly Prison effective is the real threat of mana denial by Smokestack/Wasteland OR other taxing effects OR Armageddon.

Sylvan Library? Wha?

Anyway, yes, Ghostly Prison+Armageddon is probably better, but Ensnaring Bridge has its merits too.

The argument that they can build up their forces and then destroy Bridge is legitimate, but that's why this runs 4 Damnation, and 4 Smokestack.

[ClearSkies]

What about Ensnaring Bridge combined with Uba Mask? :laugh:

[Shanghi Knights]

would putting in nihilith be a bad idea? with stax you could easily run down the suspend clock for a 4/4 with fear.

[Michael Keller]

So you've pinned your hopes and dreams to winning with a card that can subsequently kill you, while maintaining a Smokestack and dwindling your life points down to zero. Assuming you actually draw it, that is.

You need several more threats to compensate for the loss of tokens and life. Two Mishra's Factories won't cut it.

And Nether Void is horrific here; how do you expect to extract the full potential of the card when you have nothing pertinent to cast after it hits play? You're better off playing some discard in its stead. You play enough lock-components as it is. I dread saying it is a "win-more" card, when it really isn't. You're pinning yourself beneath it in hopes you have a Bitterblossom in play. Supposing your opponent plays one of their four Wastelands to stop one of your two Factories, as well.

[MTG-Fan]

So you've pinned your hopes and dreams to winning with a card that can subsequently kill you, while maintaining a Smokestack and dwindling your life points down to zero. Assuming you actually draw it, that is.


You can use a Smokestack to sac the Blossom once you get like 2-3 Faeries in play.

Also, you can win with Factories, and Tomb of Urami also.



You need several more threats to compensate for the loss of tokens and life. Two Mishra's Factories won't cut it.


How many threats does Armageddon Stax play? There are only two ways to win with an Armageddon Stax deck: Magus beats or Factory beats.



And Nether Void is horrific here; how do you expect to extract the full potential of the card when you have nothing pertinent to cast after it hits play? You're better off playing some discard in its stead. You play enough lock-components as it is. I dread saying it is a "win-more" card, when it really isn't. You're pinning yourself beneath it in hopes you have a Bitterblossom in play. Supposing your opponent plays one of their four Wastelands to stop one of your two Factories, as well.

You can also cast Nether Void if you have a Crucible in play, and you can Wastelock and/or attack with Factories.

The whole point of Nether Void is not to cast stuff after it hits play - it's the ultimate lock piece after you've established some initial control.

Honestly, your comments demonstrate a startling lack of understanding regarding the Stax archetype. Have you ever played, or even played against, a decent Stax deck in your life?

[Shanghi Knights]

@hollywood

your not counting how city and tomb are tempting targets for waste as well though.

not that nethervoid is bad here as hollywood accuses. i can't help but agree with the observation that you do need more plans of attack other than factor and bitter blossom. i can't help but think tomb of urami is just bad. in addition this is why i suggested nihilith though i do believe there are better creatures that would benefit from this type of deck.

@mtg-fan

Cunning Lethemancer might be of some use here as well as it eats peoples hands, but at the same time it does hurt your hand as well. but nothing a squee couldn't fix.

[MTG-Fan]

I admit that the lifeloss is a serious problem in most Stax decks, and especially in here because of Bitterblossom. It's a rough outline of idea at this point.

BUT claiming that this deck "doesn't run enough threats" is ridiculous. LOOK AT THE STAX ARCHETYPE. Stax does NOT run alot of threats because it needs to spend as many of its card slots playing lock components. If it can't lock its opponents out, it loses. It is a control deck, not an aggro deck. You typically play 2-3 finishers in control decks, and devote the rest of the deck to control cards.

[Shanghi Knights]

one thing that always troubles me with the stax build is a lack in card draw advantage capacity to keep the lock out components coming. i've seen bottle clositer in a few lists but i have to ask is that the best it gets when it comes to card draw in these types of decks?

granted that seems the best i've seen in legacy format. (bazaar of baghdad:laugh: )

also i adjust my statment about Cunning Lethemancer. bottled Cloister gets around him with both on the table.

[Michael Keller]

Honestly, your comments demonstrate a startling lack of understanding regarding the Stax archetype. Have you ever played, or even played against, a decent Stax deck in your life?

Ha. I was playing against the best Stax variants - and players - long (and I do mean "long") before you ever hopped on the scene. There's a very distinct reason as to why this is under - say it with me - new and developmental. The Stax decks YOU'RE referring to have cards like Armageddon that completely and utterly alter the game state.

You have, well, nothing like that here. Damnation is a board sweeper. So what? What makes you think an intelligent player won't over-extend his or her resources to appease your good nature? What are you seriously going to do if an opponent gains a serious upper-hand? You have NOTHING to fight back with except Damnation - a three-of - in a deck that inherently doesn't draw cards.

And again, you're pointing the finger at decks like White Armageddon Stax and forgetting that archetype has better lock components available than any mono-Black Stax variant in existance. If you want to make it more competitive, examine the decks that have already established themselves as developed and successful rather than biting the FREAKIN' head off anyone who tries helping you.

On a seperate note, it's obvious to just about everyone you're trying to cash-in on the success of M.G.C.A. under different sub-archetypes and claiming they are better while rudely and deliberately undermining the Established Forum with more developed and tested archetypes. You need to learn how to:

A.) Take constructive criticism a little better,
B.) LISTEN to people who have a solid and more experienced understanding of the format,
C.) Not retort with personal attacks on others' character and integrity by assuming they don't know what the hell they're doing, when it is pretty f'in apparent that they do.

[emidln]

I'm very much aware of what Smokestack is intended to do. I've been playing Stax in various formats (including this one) to decent success for a long time. Smokestack isn't very good right now. There are a metric fuckton of dedicated aggro decks that don't even need to overextend into Damnation. They just put out 2 dudes that can kill you in 3-4 turns and then do it again post-sweeper. Smokestack doesn't help a whole lot because you're sacing lands or relevant lock pieces.

Now I know you think you always have a Bitterblossom in play or a Crucible active, but even in those scenarios, you still have the block the creatures or you need to actually develop lands to cast Damnation. If you don't keep the early lock pieces they just feed Smokestack an endless supply of cheap stuff. Stax without Prop/Ghostly Prison has always had a problem with strong aggro. Sun Tower ran Rolling Earthquake to deal with the problem and even then had 4 Mishra's Factories, barbarian rings, and the ability to generate either a bunch of damage off Words of War or a bunch of bear tokens off Words of Wilding. Sun Tower's aggro matchup still sucked. Bitterblossom is more costly to your life total while producing creatures that don't even kill your opponent's stuff. It's a nice theoretical clock if your opponent has an empty board and you resolve Nether Void, but that's about it without ways to further press its advantage (for example, Equipment or Contamination).

Sylvan Library is the best filtering available to stax in any color. Given that Stax can easily splash into a second color, it's usually what I end up choosing it. If you want the exact arguments for it, you can look up my primer on Sun Tower. I brought it up because you're often at your topdeck's mercy and it was the key to making a black-based aggro stax deck work.

I'm also aware of Ensnaring Bridge's merits. You might recall a thread or two of mine where I brought it to the general legacy player's attention.

[Mystical_Jackass]

@MTG-Fan

Good job man. Excellent to finally see a black control deck like this, maybe I can even give some ideas to build off too from a deck that I've been playing a lot recently :)

When I saw the deck I kinda chuckled, 'cause a LOT of the shell seemed very similar to my POX-control deck I'm using-- with the exception of, well.. StaX!

I basically run the same Pox shell but I run these spells ontop:

3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Phyrexian Totem
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Bitterblossom
2 Contamination
2 Tombstalker

2 Syphon Life
2 Nether Spirit

2 Ensnaring Bridge (I used to maindeck them, now it's mainly sideboard :wink: )


I'm deffinitely not trying to just take over the thread, so I apologize if its coming across like that. I was basically just gonna throw out some ideas...

For one, contamination. In a control deck have you tried this idea out? In the deck I run, I use nether spirit/blossom to lock them out and it will literally shut many decks out of the game, as dirty a spell it is lol.
Second, I suggest trying syphon life. With crucible it turns mid-late game land draws into a little mana drain engine while still netting you a land.
Third, Phyrexian Arena... I know... more life loss, but I've used it before and the card advantage is phenomenal. Once using it it's like an addiction, I dont think I could not run it in my deck and as stated from my second point, with the ability to gain life back it becomes much less dire late game.
Fourth, nether spirit? In a deck with no creatures it gives you a pretty significant card advantage with smokestax since you net a permanent for free every turn ^.^ It also fits right into the 3-mana curve.

Its also possible to run dark ritual over mox & ancient tombs? Or at least just ancient tomb.. 'cause if the life-loss becomes a problem.. just a thought.

Just some ideas. GL!

[MTG-Fan]

Ha. I was playing against the best Stax variants - and players - long (and I do mean "long") before you ever hopped on the scene. There's a very distinct reason as to why this is under - say it with me - new and developmental. The Stax decks YOU'RE referring to have cards like Armageddon that completely and utterly alter the game state.


Armageddon is a powerful tool to supplement Smokestacks and Ghostly Prison, no doubt. And Armageddon Stax is a great deck, no doubt. But this is less reliant on a single bomb resolving, and can advance its game plan more incrementally. I've found that with Armageddon Stax, if you don't draw an Armageddon, or it doesn't resolve, alot of times your lock pieces can become ineffective.



You have, well, nothing like that here. Damnation is a board sweeper. So what? What makes you think an intelligent player won't over-extend his or her resources to appease your good nature? What are you seriously going to do if an opponent gains a serious upper-hand? You have NOTHING to fight back with except Damnation - a three-of - in a deck that inherently doesn't draw cards.


You can draw cards with Bottled Cloister. Crucible, Blossom, Smokestack and Cloister all provide methods of generating card advantage.




And again, you're pointing the finger at decks like White Armageddon Stax and forgetting that archetype has better lock components available than any mono-Black Stax variant in existance. If you want to make it more competitive, examine the decks that have already established themselves as developed and successful rather than biting the FREAKIN' head off anyone who tries helping you.


1.) I'm not "pointing the finger" at Armageddon Stax. I was merely illustrating that Stax deck in general do not need to run many threats. Recurring Factories and 1 other finisher are perfectly acceptable. I felt the need to bring Armageddon Stax into the picture because you so hastily dismissed this based on the LACK OF THREATS THAT I RUN.

2.) Oh, I apologize for biting your head off. But YOU are the one who came in here and took a dump all over this thread simply to provoke me. And I'm not allowed to defend myself?



On a seperate note, it's obvious to just about everyone you're trying to cash-in on the success of M.G.C.A. under different sub-archetypes and claiming they are better while rudely and deliberately undermining the Established Forum with more developed and tested archetypes.


Ok, back the hell up there buddy. Are you claiming that YOU are the sole genesis of all Ancient Tomb/City based Prison decks because a green Tomb/City aggro deck of your design has lately (er, past few weeks) done well? Are you claiming that all further Tomb/City Prison decks are "ripoffs" of your MGCA deck? Are you even aware how long Stax has been around as an archetype?

I've been interested in, and playing, Stax decks long before you ever decided to post your "MGCA" thread. If you look at my thread history, I posted a Braids Black Stax thread a few months ago in here.

Your claims to the contrary are absolutely ludicrous.

[Mystical_Jackass]

You ignored my post :[

[MTG-Fan]

1.) Phyrexian Arena is a good draw, but 1 dmg is more than I think I want to deal to myself. It's bad enough already with Blossom and Tombs, and I feel that for 1 more mana Bottled Cloister is superior in this type of deck.

2.) Contamination + Blossom is indeed a nice lock but I haven't tested it yet. I tried it before in a B/W shell with Enlightened Tutor, but not in a Stax-type shell.

[Mystical_Jackass]

ok, sounds good :)

Regarding the Arena... wut about + ~2 Syphon Life? Arena + Crucible + land draw + retrace + play land? Possibility of keeping yourself above water.. allows you to go down to, like you mentioned.. less than 10, lock your opponent out, and BAM they've got nothing :)

[Roman Candle]

Armageddon is a powerful tool to supplement Smokestacks and Ghostly Prison, no doubt. And Armageddon Stax is a great deck, no doubt. But this is less reliant on a single bomb resolving, and can advance its game plan more incrementally. I've found that with Armageddon Stax, if you don't draw an Armageddon, or it doesn't resolve, alot of times your lock pieces can become ineffective.

It should be pointed out, however, that Armageddon Stax has a much better chance of drawing Armageddon than Bitterblossom Stax.

How exactly are you less reliant on a single bomb? Aren't you pretty much flopping around gasping for air without Smokestack? Otherwise, your control elements are scary weak.



1.) I'm not "pointing the finger" at Armageddon Stax. I was merely illustrating that Stax deck in general do not need to run many threats. Recurring Factories and 1 other finisher are perfectly acceptable. I felt the need to bring Armageddon Stax into the picture because you so hastily dismissed this based on the LACK OF THREATS THAT I RUN.

However, Armageddon Stax has better control elements. It can lock up the game much better than you can, and therefore it can take its time winning.

[Shanghi Knights]

i'm surprised we haven't seen more of Syphon Life yet in even the aggro loam decks its a nice retrace card. In a stax deck wouldn't it work if you put in Dakmor Salvage so you could retrace syphon life? i mean it would be interesting as a threat for what mtg-fan is trying to accomplish but the ever present problem of it being locked out by nethervoid would make you wanting something better if you drew into it.

at the same time thought if artifacts are being dredge i would want to put in a welder. (possibly a necromancy for a possible sundering titan for laughs) but thats kinda getting away from mtg-fans original objective.

@ mJ
if dark ritual was in this deck it would be like you were running type 1 budge t4k$.

[MTG-Fan]

It should be pointed out, however, that Armageddon Stax has a much better chance of drawing Armageddon than Bitterblossom Stax.

How exactly are you less reliant on a single bomb? Aren't you pretty much flopping around gasping for air without Smokestack? Otherwise, your control elements are scary weak.


Well, let's look at this from the aggro matchup standpoint. For Ghostly Prison to be effective into the mid/late-game, White Stax definitely needs to cast Armageddon.

If I can empty my hand fast enough, Bridge will lock out almost everything. And of course, if I can resolve a Cloister, it's a hard-lock against aggro unless they destroy one of those pieces. All the while I can cast Damnation if I need to, or chump block with Faeries/Factories.

Smokestack isn't necessary, it's just a nice way to deteriorate their board with a Blossom or a Crucible in play. Also, in this respect Smokestack is more consistent in black stax because it can be fueled by both Blossom AND Crucible, whereas in White Stax you need to draw one of your 4 Crucibles to feed it.




However, Armageddon Stax has better control elements. It can lock up the game much better than you can, and therefore it can take its time winning.

The only real difference is the land destruction aspect. Yes, that can lock people out of spells better, but that's about it.

For the record, I play White Stax also - it's one of my favorite decks. I just like Stax in general. I will admit that at this point White Stax seems superior if only for the land destruction potential, but I am digging some of the synergies between these cards also, and thus put this list up for consideration as a "New & Developmental/Experimental" idea. No harm in exploring possible alternatives, right? I think Stax is an archetype that lends itself to modifications and customizations very well.

[Shanghi Knights]

i can imagine a turn 1 lackey in the goblin match being a huge problem for you then if you only have a bridge. your only other out is damnation but combine that aggro with its rashidian port you might get stuck, muchless any other quick aggro that suddenly pulls grips on bridge or blossem (provided your using chump blockers)

[Roman Candle]

Well, let's look at this from the aggro matchup standpoint. For Ghostly Prison to be effective into the mid/late-game, White Stax definitely needs to cast Armageddon.

Not really. Assuming that Armageddon Stax has a Magus of the Tabernacle in play, it costs the aggro player six mana to get a single creature through. If you also happen to have Mishra's Factory, it takes 8 mana and three creatures.


If I can empty my hand fast enough, Bridge will lock out almost everything. And of course, if I can resolve a Cloister, it's a hard-lock against aggro unless they destroy one of those pieces. All the while I can cast Damnation if I need to, or chump block with Faeries/Factories.

Isn't the definition of "hard lock" something you can't get out of?

And aside from that, part of what makes Armageddon Stax's control aspects so good is that it doesn't need to use Damnation/Wrath to punish overextending. Its control already does that.

On the other hand, Ensnaring Bridge does nothing to punish overextending, and as soon as the Bridge is Gripped/Qasali'd, all those creatures suddenly come online again.


Smokestack isn't necessary, it's just a nice way to deteriorate their board with a Blossom or a Crucible in play. Also, in this respect Smokestack is more consistent in black stax because it can be fueled by both Blossom AND Crucible, whereas in White Stax you need to draw one of your 4 Crucibles to feed it.

But in White Stax, you aren't nearly as reliant upon Smokestack to deteriorate the opponent's board. With Magus and Prison, the opponent can't overextend and can't swing. Unless you have Smokestack, the opponent is free to overextend unless you have one of your 3-of Damnations in a deck with no card manipulation.


The only real difference is the land destruction aspect. Yes, that can lock people out of spells better, but that's about it.

So in other words, it does what Stax does, better?

But I think the real difference is that Ghostly Prison/Magus are leagues ahead of Ensnaring Bridge/Damnation when it comes to creature control.

[MTG-Fan]

i can imagine a turn 1 lackey in the goblin match being a huge problem for you then if you only have a bridge. your only other out is damnation but combine that aggro with its rashidian port you might get stuck, muchless any other quick aggro that suddenly pulls grips on bridge or blossem (provided your using chump blockers)

I just played the Goblins matchup a few hours ago on MWS.

He had attacked me down to a low life total, I had a Blossom in play, and finally resolved a Bridge, and then a Cloister, which locked him out finally. He had like a billion Goblins in play, and my life was going from 5 to 4 to 3 with each Blossom trigger. My only out was to cast Smokestack so that I could sacrifice the Blossom to my Stack and live, but alas, most of my lands were Ancient Tombs. So yeah, the lifeloss can definitely be a problem if they get you down low enough.

On the other hand, I've had some Goblins games where everything went smoothly, i.e. early Damnation, Bridge, empty my hand, Crucible, Bridge, win with Faeries.

[MTG-Fan]

Isn't the definition of "hard lock" something you can't get out of?


Moat + Humility is a hard lock against aggro, but that doesn't mean one of the pieces can't be K-Gripped.



And aside from that, part of what makes Armageddon Stax's control aspects so good is that it doesn't need to use Damnation/Wrath to punish overextending. Its control already does that.

On the other hand, Ensnaring Bridge does nothing to punish overextending, and as soon as the Bridge is Gripped/Qasali'd, all those creatures suddenly come online again.


You're telling me that when a Prison isn't Gripped/Qasali'd, his creatures can't start attacking again?



But in White Stax, you aren't nearly as reliant upon Smokestack to deteriorate the opponent's board. With Magus and Prison, the opponent can't overextend and can't swing. Unless you have Smokestack, the opponent is free to overextend unless you have one of your 3-of Damnations in a deck with no card manipulation.


Magus and Prison require Armageddon to function correctly though.



So in other words, it does what Stax does, better?

But I think the real difference is that Ghostly Prison/Magus are leagues ahead of Ensnaring Bridge/Damnation when it comes to creature control.

Prison/Magus have their advantages, but Bridge has actually been far more reliable and final for me in testing.

I mean, Bridge can be great all on its own. I empty my hand and Goyfs can't attack me anymore. With Ghostly Prison, if that's all I had on board, eventually I would be getting attacked by lone Goyfs. This situation comes up far more often than you'd think - they K-Grip, say, your Crucible or your Smokestack, and you're left with a Prison. Or you have a Prison, and they counter your Armageddon. Similarly, they might K-Grip my Blossom or my Crucible, and I am left counting on a Bridge to save me, which will in a situation where Prison wouldn't.

[Roman Candle]

Moat + Humility is a hard lock against aggro, but that doesn't mean one of the pieces can't be K-Gripped.

I was talking about Geddon Stax, not Dutch Stax, which I feel is inferior.


You're telling me that when a Prison isn't Gripped/Qasali'd, his creatures can't start attacking again?

I'm saying that when this happens, the number of creatures the opponent controls has been limited by Magus, who also happens to have a massive backside. Since the opponent is not allowed to overextend, the damage dealt from this is minimal.


Magus and Prison require Armageddon to function correctly though.

Prison/Magus have their advantages, but Bridge has actually been far more reliable and final for me in testing.

I mean, Bridge can be great all on its own. I empty my hand and Goyfs can't attack me anymore. With Ghostly Prison, if that's all I had on board, eventually I would be getting attacked by lone Goyfs. This situation comes up far more often than you'd think - they K-Grip, say, your Crucible or your Smokestack, and you're left with a Prison. Or you have a Prison, and they counter your Armageddon. Similarly, they might K-Grip my Blossom or my Crucible, and I am left counting on a Bridge to save me, which will in a situation where Prison wouldn't.

All I can think of when I read this is the scene from Spinal Tap where the guy is like, "But... but it goes... to eleven."

[MTG-Fan]

I was talking about Geddon Stax, not Dutch Stax, which I feel is inferior.



I thought we were discussing the meaning of "hard lock" as it applies to Ensnaring Bridge and Bottled Cloister, and not the vagaries of different builds of White Stax?




I'm saying that when this happens, the number of creatures the opponent controls has been limited by Magus, who also happens to have a massive backside. Since the opponent is not allowed to overextend, the damage dealt from this is minimal.


This is true that Magus can limit your opponent's production of creatures, but consider those decks with lone big creatures like Goyfs and Tombstalkers, or those situations where there is alot of attrition and you are barely hanging in with a single Prison.




All I can think of when I read this is the scene from Spinal Tap where the guy is like, "But... but it goes... to eleven."

So I take it you have nothing smart to say in response, then?

I mean, honestly, if you want to discuss the pros and cons of various builds of Stax in a logical, respectful manner, then I'd be willing to do so with you. But it seems that everyone who comments in here is too interested in simply nay-saying anything new simply for the sake of nay-saying it, and mostly because *I* posted the idea.

[Shanghi Knights]

for fast aggro is sideboarding in tangle wire and game delaying a bad play for your stax? idealy with a bitterblossom on the table it would all work out in your favor better i would imagine.

[Roman Candle]

I thought we were discussing the meaning of "hard lock" as it applies to Ensnaring Bridge and Bottled Cloister, and not the vagaries of different builds of White Stax?

I misunderstood. I was simply trying to point out that Ensnaring Bridge + Bottled Cloister is *not* a hard lock. Neither is Moat + Humility, for that matter.


This is true that Magus can limit your opponent's production of creatures, but consider those decks with lone big creatures like Goyfs and Tombstalkers, or those situations where there is alot of attrition and you are barely hanging in with a single Prison.

A lone Tarmogoyf can be blocked by the Magus. Tombstalker is a little trickier, but since its really a niche card (criminally underplayed, but not a single copy in any current DTB), its really not worth much worrying over. Its still vulnerable to Oblivion Ring, or just a Geddon with Prison on the board.


So I take it you have nothing smart to say in response, then?

No, I'm just done saying the same things over and over again. Every single argument you make can be rebutted by something I've posted previously. Since its obvious that you refuse to take any advice from anyone, I just don't give a shit anymore.

[Shanghi Knights]

I thought we were discussing the meaning of "hard lock" as it applies to Ensnaring Bridge and Bottled Cloister, and not the vagaries of different builds of White Stax?

I mean, honestly, if you want to discuss the pros and cons of various builds of Stax in a logical, respectful manner, then I'd be willing to do so with you. But it seems that everyone who comments in here is too interested in simply nay-saying anything new simply for the sake of nay-saying it, and mostly because *I* posted the idea.

arguing or not a big issue might be getting to those pieces for there synergy. i mean is there a quickery way of doing it? when your arse is in a sling being readied for launch. would u benefit from cruel tutor for instance he fits your decks mana curve.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I just played the Goblins matchup a few hours ago on MWS.

He had attacked me down to a low life total, I had a Blossom in play, and finally resolved a Bridge, and then a Cloister, which locked him out finally. He had like a billion Goblins in play, and my life was going from 5 to 4 to 3 with each Blossom trigger. My only out was to cast Smokestack so that I could sacrifice the Blossom to my Stack and live, but alas, most of my lands were Ancient Tombs. So yeah, the lifeloss can definitely be a problem if they get you down low enough.

I deffinitely see the Tombs being troublesome like that without Jitte or something to boost your life.

If you ran contamination though, would that prevent you from taking damage from your Ancient Tombs? I'm actually not sure how that works lol. Also, that may have been a classic time where retrace would have saved you. I have had a player in a lock with ensnaring bridge before, and literally retraced their ass to death Lol, as sad as it is some times.

[totti]

What about Gargoyle Castle instead of Tomb of Urami? It only taps for colorless, but it a) doesn't deal you any damage, and b) you just sacrifice the Castle for the token, not all your lands.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Im not saying it will be any good but what about a playing artifact creatures and the abyss as a win,
something like:

4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 Juggernaut
4 Su chi
4 The abyss
4 Mox Diamond

and some other cards

[Shanghi Knights]

Im not saying it will be any good but what about a playing artifact creatures and the abyss as a win,
something like:

4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 Juggernaut
4 Su chi
4 The abyss
4 Mox Diamond

and some other cards


that kind of tech kinda breaks away from the whole point of blossom stax, it be better used in 5/3 stompy. (as a thread it was buried long ago)

no offense.

[MTG-Fan]

What about Gargoyle Castle instead of Tomb of Urami? It only taps for colorless, but it a) doesn't deal you any damage, and b) you just sacrifice the Castle for the token, not all your lands.

Holy crap, that's a really good idea. I forgot that they printed that land in M10.

If we put 1-2 Gargoyle Castles in this deck, with Crucible out, you can have a recurring 3/4 flying Gargoyle generator. Awesome.

Definitely -1 Tomb of Urami +1-2 Gargoyle Castle.

[Mystical_Jackass]

yea man, I second that. Be cool seeing these new M10 cards come to life too :) It has a pretty killer ability, regardless of the colorless mana, running a few Urborg should already fix that too.


Cheers to everyone giving positive & helpful suggestions BTW. I'm sorry, but White stax, Blue Stax.. Purple Stax.. who gives a shit lol. I was getting really tired of ppl listing off reasons why it doesn't work instead of coming up with reasons to help Black Stax work; I mean obviously it can't possibly work the same, but it might end up working better in different ways ^.^ /endrant

[Mystical_Jackass]

Okay, possibly I struck gold???? How bout this...

Since Bitterblossom + Smokestack ;

Liability
Enchantment
Card Text:Whenever a nontoken permanent is put into a player's graveyard from the battlefield, that player loses 1 life.


Man, all you'd need is Abyss/Nether Void out too and that would just be brutal

I was even thinking... since you lack disruption (except for Trini, which is sorta anti-disruption), how would Parallax Nexus work?

[Shanghi Knights]

parallax nexus never sees much love these days. i mean spot hand removal for an entire round is just devastating. (shank there went 4 cards! muwhahah!) could always trick or stifle the leave play ability too for kicks. If only they would print a humility for enchantment.

i'm doubtful of liability but go for it it does have a certain synergy with a smoke stack.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Yea, my thought on the Nexus would be like.. turn1 Nexus, remove 4 cards from their hand from the game, this buys you a good 2 turns to lock them out with Chalice or Trinisphere, or better yet something like blossom & contamination. By the time their hand is back they would be limited in doing much?

Even better, are there ways to recur enchantments with Black? I knew of this Replenish deck I saw long ago, beat ppl down with parallax tide & attunement. But then again that's sorta a different story...


Or check out this PLAY:

Turn 1: City, mox, Parallax Nexus; remove 4 cards in their hand from the game
Turn 2: Upkeep- remove last counter. Play land, play bitterblossom (or arena), something like that.
Turn 3: Upkeep- destroy Nexus. Play Nether Void. Laugh @ opponent = P

[beastman]

If you wanted to, say, against certain decks, you might consider a transformational SB into Helm+Leyline combo.

[Mystical_Jackass]

That wouldn't be a bad Alt win condition...

Maybe something like this?

Land (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of YAWGY
1 Wasteland (mid-late game with stax)
7 Swamp
2 Factory

Spells (40)
4 Chrome Mox
---
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
4 Parallax Nexus
---
4 Leyline the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
---
4 Bitterblossom
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Contamination
2 The Abyss
2 Smoke stack
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Syphon Life

======
On second thought. Prolly just replace Abyss with Ensnaring Bridge, nobody can afford that shi* lol. Well, bridge works great too :wink: . Anyways, That actually prolly wouldn't be a bad deck 'cause it has one instant win cond and at least 2-3 different ways to put your opponent into a choke hold they'd have a tough time recovering from. The instant win ability at least gives you hope when you're low life against a deck, and just not pushing an advantage over them even with smokestack out, you could prolly tread water with syphon till you pull off win.

[Shanghi Knights]

Since this was mtg-fans project, i guess its a decent place to ask, why did he get banned?

@jack

That's not a bad build, I like how you put multiple forms of "attack" into the deck. Not easily done in many decks but given the combo's colors it all can fit together much easier than other (multiple) combos put into a single deck.

Given the build thought siphon life doesn't seem very necessary in the md i would leave that as a SB.

Could worm harvest be of use here late game?

[Mystical_Jackass]

@jack

That's not a bad build, I like how you put multiple forms of "attack" into the deck. Not easily done in many decks but given the combo's colors it all can fit together much easier than other (multiple) combos put into a single deck.

Given the build thought siphon life doesn't seem very necessary in the md i would leave that as a SB.



Yea, I'd really like to try it out (I don't have Mox's or Helm yet though :*[). I deffinitely prolly dont have as much experience as most of you guys with Stax... I've played against it a lot.
My main deck I've been running for quite a while runs a lot of the same spells, funny enough... it's sort of a Pox-control deck; But again, it emphasizes a little more on recursion so I haven't gotten to try out the Helm combo... this deck could give me a good excuse to rock that shyte ^.!

It is funny you mention.. I do like how Helm & Leyline sorta ease into the deck with the rest of the spells. I figure at its worst, Leyline the Void is still a great card to run... and might accidently piss players off Game 1 like Thresh, Dredge, .. any deck with goyf..etc. Lol! I would love to drop a Leyline into play then watch my opponent the next few turns hardcast a stinkweed imp into play and be like "Go!" with a distasteful look on his face :smile: I could just see him bitching to his fiends afterwords, like.. "who maindecks Leyline, seriously?" lol


Could worm harvest be of use here late game?

Actually, I just picked one of those up in a booster funny enough.

It's a good idea. Would I need to take out crucible to make that effective... or is that sorta a misconception? I've never used the card before but my thought is I might want a few fetchland and perhaps another waste then.

I know players who run that card, usually in a deck like 41 Lands, or decks that run Loam. I might have to put that idea on hold till I find a way to really abuse it, but the way I play it out in my head I'm looking at most like.. 5cc spell and getting 4 tokens at most? That's like a bad Hermit lol. The retrace ability makes is pretty cool though, but is this card gonna be too slow is what I'm wondering.

I think you may be right about Syphon. It's far better in a Pox shell as a discard outlet, but you have any other ideas to fill that slot? My thoughts were like... 2 Damnation or 2 Nether Spirit? Sorta in the range of "buy time to win spells" lol. Damnation would offer more board control, but Nether spirit also combos better with other spells in the deck >.>

[Shanghi Knights]

what about just dredging darkmore salvage (a nonbasic land) so we can retrace worm harvest?

do you really need life gain in the siphon life slot? If so we could maybe put mourning thrulls in a 1/1 flyer with life link or a loxidon warhammer wouldn't be a bad stretch.

there is also more board control possibility i would recommend a damnation in that spot its just too good not to have in this deck.

just to be safe maybe we should up it to 3 smoke stack cause if we got both bitterblossom and phyrexian arena going we need to be able to shut them off at some point. not that having them both going at the same time would be happening but just to be safe.

if the deck were still solly abusing bitter blossom it would definitly be what Greater Harvester has needed for so long to be effective. I would run him over smoke stack, but the key is getting him through any would be defense as he has no combat abilities of his own to get past defenders. (a reason to use our warhammer).

[Mystical_Jackass]

what about just dredging darkmore salvage (a nonbasic land) so we can retrace worm harvest?

I see what you're saying. After thinking about it, I'd say no 'cause the card seems like it'd hurt more than help me. Just too conditional, its only usefulness would be if drawn late game "after" work harvest is in the graveyard. Early game this land would be bad for me, I dont want to slow down my explosiveness 'cause I gotta wait for a stupid land to untap lol.

Basically though... using crucible and drawing cards, I dont think I'd ever have a problem drawing lands to retrace... I never did with Syphon Life so I should be good. Especially when Arena is out and you are drawing 2 cards per turn :wink:


do you really need life gain in the siphon life slot? If so we could maybe put mourning thrulls in a 1/1 flyer with life link or a loxidon warhammer wouldn't be a bad stretch.

I think I will need some. Ancient tomb each turn... on top of Bitterblossom, Phyrexian Arena, and any creatures that snuck through. Dealing with board control shouldn't be a problem, but dealing with winning before I lose will be another problem.
I'm almost thinking I'ma just have to stick with Jitte. Its cheaper so it comes out faster, and more versatile in terms of being able to block or remove too, and once combat damage it's guaranteed 4 life at least if I think I'ma die lol.
For the same converted mana cost (and isnce I already have 1/1 flyers) I think that would give me much much more.


there is also more board control possibility i would recommend a damnation in that spot its just too good not to have in this deck.

Yea I totally agree. Since we don't have a Geddon/Tabernackle combo this seems like the safest way to go, and I just lost to NO-->Progenitals last time I played and I wished I had a Wrath card in my deck Rofl.

You're right about 3 Smokestack. I was just throwing a number out, but I think that'd be good. This is gonna be a confusing balancing act having the right number of everything... so many good spells, so little room! @.@


if the deck were still solly abusing bitter blossom it would definitly be what Greater Harvester has needed for so long to be effective. I would run him over smoke stack, but the key is getting him through any would be defense as he has no combat abilities of his own to get past defenders. (a reason to use our warhammer).

Oh god. Lol. I would not run him, well... I guess you never know till you try but he seems like he'd be a friggin headache. At that point, I almost think cards like Dread or Visara would be better lol. I hate the fact that he sorta puts you at a disadvantage till you get the advantage, ya know. He's got a lot of potential, but he really needs Whispersilk Cloak or something like that.


I'll give it some thought, if I decide to go through with it which I really might, I'ma make a separate thread 'cause I dont want to disrespect the OP. But keep feeding the ideas and might even come up with a badass deck.

[Mr. Fix it]

Greater harvester could be fun, certainly a stax deck could keep it well fed. All the better with bitterblossom.


4 dark ritual
4 small pox

4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 crucible of worlds
4 chrome mox/mox diamond

4 bitterblossom

4 greater harvester
2 Nihilith
4 Corrupting Licid

getting harvester though is still sort of a problem but i think corrupting licid would work as a 2/2 beater and get the harvester through most defenses. Less the match up is against another black creature deck. course the flying licid might be better, dunno if splashing blue is worth it or not.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Pft... that's all you man. I still think that card's a pile lol :tongue:

Sorin Markov's (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94387&d=1251433640)falling right into my deck sleeve though, FO REALZ! Think that pretty much covers Syphon Life, but I still might throw in Jitte.

Once I pull out the mindslaver, I'ma untap my friends lands... draw a card, then in the best impression of him declare "I concede"... he totally won't see it coming >.< Muahahaha, and it'll be too late

[beastman]

MTG fan was banned because it was just cavius's new account.

[beastman]

When I made that deck, it wasn't intended to be piloted by scrubs like you... only highly skilled players can effectively compete with Nourishing Lich.

[Shanghi Knights]

I don't understand what is wrong with this calvis guy? I do admit seems a little narcisistic. In addition i havent read most of his posts.


yes mystical jack we will have to break mr. markov but i doubt any real breaking will be nessesary.

we need a card that lets us drop these planeswalkers sooner than turn 5 and 6 or later. All i can come up with is Eureka, channel and warp world to name a couple. But he is a definite must in black stax.

but i think i could achieve something similar in a different deck if brought from type 1 to 1.5 (legacy)

[Mystical_Jackass]

I don't understand what is wrong with this calvis guy? I do admit seems a little narcisistic. In addition i havent read most of his posts.

I wouldn't worry yourself about the politics here. Who really knows, right


we need a card that lets us drop these planeswalkers sooner than turn 5 and 6 or later. All i can come up with is Eureka, channel and warp world to name a couple. But he is a definite must in black stax.


I agree, the card is just awesome in MBC. I really don't see the converted mana cost an issue to tell the truth, I'm more worried the deck has enough answers. Trinisphere, chalice of the void, damnation buy you much time. Control from what I've gathered can run a higher mana curve as long as you have answers.

Channel is not legal in Legacy. Warp world.. honestly I dont even know why you mentioned this? An 8cc (5RRR) spell, which is actually more than 6cc anyways that provides a conditional and totally unpredictable ability?
Eureka has potential, but again its unpredictable and really requires a deck that is specifically built to manipulate the card to its full potential.

[Shanghi Knights]

i dunno why i suggested warped world. but i do play vintage and channel is never far from my mind as are most of those cards that legacy players can't use.

crazy idea but what if we went down the road of spanish inquisition with him? powering out 6 black mana isn't a problem if your willing to leave yourself wise open.


4 dark confidant
3 karn silver golem

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 sink hole
4 smoke stack

4 markov

4 trinisphere
4 tangle wire

3 phyrexian arena

seems kinda janky but just a list to get the thinking going?

[Mystical_Jackass]

ZENDIKAR! Weee! So now that its here, deffinitely thinking of trying it out again; I deffinitely want to try out the new Planeswalker!

After going 2-2 with my last list at a tournament, there were good things and bad things, but I got some desc advice and here's a few ideas:

- Try 3 Trini vs 4
- Mox Dmd > Chrome Mox in stax!
- 25 Lands+
- 3+ Crucible
- Nay to Nexus. It actually performed well, just no room :\ I'd have to take out combo, and not quite ready to do that when I won several rounds I literally almost shouldn't have drawing into instant-win lol

On a secondary note, wayyy too much self inflicted damage. I dont mind taking damage for the team, but at times i felt like I was doing opponent a favor, I had games in the bag I'd lose because trying to win was killing me. I cut down Ancient Tomb and added another City, also added another Urborg hopefully that'll balance it a little better.

So I put together a more updated list. Tell me what ya'll think :eyebrow:

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@Blossom Stax@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
*was gonna call it Blawesome Stax, but that was kinda gay :\
Land (25)
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
12 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory

Spells (35)
4 Mox Diamond
---
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
---
4 Leyline the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
---
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Bitterblossom
2 Contamination
3 Smokestack
2 Phyrexian Arena
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Sorin Markov

===SIDEBOARD==== (Still not 100% satisfied lol)
3 Jitte
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
3 Damnation
1 Ensnaring Bridge

[Hanni]

Needs moar Braids.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I did think about her, but I just think Smokestack is better :\

1) Gatekeeper > Her

2) Unlike Stax, can't increase counters. I've literally had to up it to 3 to stop a player from killing me lol.. he was down to 2 creatures and a land.

3) Can't sac off own enchantments with her. Late game when you're down to like 5 life, I don't want blossom & Arena hanging around so they're easily manageable as long as I have a Stax to sacrafice them to

[Hanni]

It's not a matter of whether Smokestacks is better than Braids or not. You're not replacing Somestacks with Braids.

Braids is Somestacks 5-8, and since your playing Bitterblossom to specifically combo with Smokestacks, running the extra effects makes more sense with your gameplan.

Stax is a deck that requires redundancy because it lacks a draw engine. 8 sac effects with Braids/Somestack and 8 permanent generation effects with Crucible/Bitterblossom gives you redundancy.

I wouldn't play Black Stax, with Bitterblossom, without also running Braids.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Braids is Somestacks 5-8, and since your playing Bitterblossom to specifically combo with Smokestacks, running the extra effects makes more sense with your gameplan.

Thanks for the help. I see what you're saying, so maybe I'll replace Gatekeeper with Braids for now. That sounds like a good plan.

She works in a similar way it seems, she comes into play, they sac a permanent, and can be used as a potential blocker. Her mana cost although higher might fit better too, BBB could be a disaster waiting to happen >.>


Stax is a deck that requires redundancy because it lacks a draw engine. 8 sac effects with Braids/Somestack and 8 permanent generation effects with Crucible/Bitterblossom gives you redundancy.

Don't forget Phyrexian Arena!! True true, thanks for the help though those are good points.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
New List:
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@Blossom Stax@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Land (25)
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Wasteland
13 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory

Spells (35)
4 Mox Diamond
------------------
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
------------------
4 Leyline the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
------------------
3 Smokestack
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
------------------
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Bitterblossom
2 Contamination
2 Phyrexian Arena
------------------
1 Sorin Markov

===SIDEBOARD====
3 Jitte
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
3 Damnation
1 Ensnaring Bridge
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Hanni]

I wouldn't run Phyrexian Arena in the deck. You're already losing life from Ancient Tomb and Bitterblossom tokens. Stax gets around the need for a draw engine through redundancy; while a draw engine is not a bad thing to add into Stax (Library/Uba Mask in the old R/g Stax decks, for example), the lifeloss seems like it's going to cost you more games than it's worth. I could be completely wrong though, I've yet to test Phyrexian Arena in Black Stax.

[Runelore]

This is the list that I have been testing. I have had a lot of success because it has several ways to set up the turn 2 lock or win.

I am beginning to like it more than Geddon stax (which has always been my favorite) because this is more offensive and more consistent and redundant. Instead of just stax and crucible, you have stax or braids and crucible or bitterblossom. Furthermore your helm + leyline steals games and has tremendous main deck advantage for all sorts of mainstream tier decks.

Let me know what you think and the person who created this post can take some of my comments and apply them to how he wants to play.

Strategy: set up lock pieces asap ie stacks or braids with crucible or bitterblossom. Win with braids or blossom. Backup plan is helm + leyline ....sometimes its all you need :) especially if your opponent never gets to cast a spell because of chalice and trinisphere.

24x Lands (haven't worked too much on these but they seem good)

4x ancient tomb
8x swamp
4x city of traitors
1x urborg tomb of yagmoth
4x wasteland
3x horizon canopy (cheap draw)


24x Artifacts

4x mox diamond
4x crucible of worlds (i like this as a 4 of because it enables braids and smokestacks if you dont have bitterblossom...remember that thing called consistancy and redundancy?)
4x trinisphere
4x chalice of the void
4x smokestack
4x helm of obedience (combo's with leyline for immediate win on turn 2 as well as can pull a creature out of opponents deck if need be)


12x Black cards

4x bitterblossom (win condition, feeds stax and braids, serves as blockers, riciculous board advantage)
4x braids (Stax 5-8 also allows for turn 2 soft lock with t1 bitterblossom or trini or chalice for 1. also in some instances better than stacks because once she hits she immediately makes opponent sac a permanent instead of having to wait a turn. She also serves as a win condition because as long as you can swing 10 times with her, meaning you have 10 permanents to sac other than her you win easily. Hopefully by then you'll draw into a chalice or blossom to make things easier or your combo.
4x leyline of the void (combo's with helm for turn 2 win, also wins the mirror because opponents can't use crucible to recur lands. Amazing vs dredge, survival, tarmogoyf, threshold, reanimator...list goes on and on)


Sideboard (haven’t given this much thought)

4x dystopia (the deck loses to enchantress because of sacred ground and teeg plus it serves as another stax effect just has a life drawback :)
4x contamination (for everything not black, haven’t tested it main didn’t know what to take out)
3x powder keg (black has trouble removing enchantments and artifacts, and it gets creatures also)
4x pithing needle (i hear pernicious deed is bad news for stax decks and so is nev's disk)



I have found that the deck has trouble with

Rock (the combination of discard, goyf, and several board sweepers or artifact and enchantment killers....deed, disk, putrefy, pulse)
Goblins and Burn (really only a problem if it doesn’t get the right hand to start off because the damage you deal to yourself only makes it easier for their decks. Those matchups are best won by helm + leyline)
Gaining life maybe consider a zuran orb or jitte or sword of light and shadow...nothing really seems to appealing except for zuran cause its free and you have to sacrifice city of traitors eventually. with crucible an upkeep of 2 life a turn can be detrimental on its own to burn or goblins.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Awesome, glad to see others who run this deck! Deffinitely see a lot of commonalities for the most part.

Few things I see different:
24 lands seems kinda low to me, I was almost thinking 25 for me was too low lol, I dunno.
Also, zero mishra's factory? Seems odd, I'd almost think auto-include in a deck like this.. just ride 1-2 factories ftw. I actually was thinking bumping up to 3, they become great blockers too especially with crucible and may be contamination outlet if needed.

I started out with 4 Helm, but slowly cut down to 3... then 2.
I loved when I could sucker punch players game1, but it was inconsistent and not reliable. Players totally saw it coming, would blow Void in response or save counters for it and finish me off. I had to cut back for practicality, its amazing just to have but I think I put too much faith into combo to win.

Black can't really chant and combo out like painters unfortunately, so I realized more importantly I had to use contamination shennanigans, stax, and artifacts to lock them out first 'cause rushing for the combo worked at times and backfired the other 2/3 of the time lol

I used 3 Dystopia SB before, maybe I'll add it back. Never really got to use it much so figured mehh, might as well toss in Jitte go Faeries on their a$$.
I think Engineered Plague should go in though dude, that's your answer to tribal. Might even help in enchantress

[Runelore]

Awesome, glad to see others who run this deck! Deffinitely see a lot of commonalities for the most part.

Few things I see different:
24 lands seems kinda low to me, I was almost thinking 25 for me was too low lol, I dunno.
Also, zero mishra's factory? Seems odd, I'd almost think auto-include in a deck like this.. just ride 1-2 factories ftw. I actually was thinking bumping up to 3, they become great blockers too especially with crucible and may be contamination outlet if needed.

I started out with 4 Helm, but slowly cut down to 3... then 2.
I loved when I could sucker punch players game1, but it was inconsistent and not reliable. Players totally saw it coming, would blow Void in response or save counters for it and finish me off. I had to cut back for practicality, its amazing just to have but I think I put too much faith into combo to win.

Black can't really chant and combo out like painters unfortunately, so I realized more importantly I had to use contamination shennanigans, stax, and artifacts to lock them out first 'cause rushing for the combo worked at times and backfired the other 2/3 of the time lol

I used 3 Dystopia SB before, maybe I'll add it back. Never really got to use it much so figured mehh, might as well toss in Jitte go Faeries on their a$$.
I think Engineered Plague should go in though dude, that's your answer to tribal. Might even help in enchantress

The only problem with factories is they do not make black mana It is important for braids and leyline. And you are absolutly right I think it needs 1 more land because my geddon stax runs 25 and that seems perfect. The combo can be dealt with but theres so much pressure on them with braids and stax it usually flies under the radar because your opponent can only handle so much and typically not faster than you can bring it to them unless they have a deed. Also even if you are fighting a losing battle with bitterblossoms and whatever hopefully you can deal or hold them off long enough to draw into teh helm and just win. Chalice can typically take care of their removal if you are bankiing on the combo ftw but maybe its just the meta I play against. I wouldnt take it out becuase its part of what make the deck consistenly offensive. I like it much more than geddon stax for the simple reason that it is more consistent and has differnt win outlets and can lock the opponent down faster. I'll make the necessarychanges to the boad and see how that plays out.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Braids is legendary, so I dont see cutting down to 3 is gonna kill you. But have you considered Sorin, I'ma run one for now but he seems really fitting in the deck. He helps you with the "loss of life" issue, and is another win condition. Mindslaver seems really interesting too

I really really think Factories should have a home though.. We should have no excuse "Black" since we can run 2-3 Urborg :) With crucible and Stax.. well, nuf said.. you WIN with just lands and a trinisphere out lol

[Runelore]

I guess that's my problem is that I only run 24 lands, and 1 urborg so for my versino that is an issue i run into. Sorin is to expensive in my opinion because i actually tried eternity vessel for a while but thats two expensive and its 6 colorless and more more effective for what your wanting it for...life fixing.

i also am having trouble figuring out what I'll take out for the mishras and extra land to make 25, everything is pretty essential until g2 and you can figure out what you can slack on.

[f|i[p]]

This is a bit out of the topic, but I have been trying to put bitter blossom in a white stax shell instead of black...

The problem might lie in that, white will need to splash a color in order to make full use of bitter blossom...

It also doesn't make full use of the leyline helm combo...

As for advantages, I am still testing as of the moment...

Here is a quick draft of what I've been tryign

25 lands
4 mox D

3 world queller

4 bitter blossom
3 trinisphere
4 chalice
3 crucible
4 vindicate
3 ghostly prison
2 wrath of god
3 armageddon
3 smokestack

I like world queller better than braids, as it can actually target specific problems. However it comes a turn later than braids...
With bitter blossom online.. it can act as very good creature control...

Mass effects like wrath and armageddon has also been added to destroy swarm of creatures, or a land heavy deck.

I'm not sure how ever about the permanent count, but I haven't encountered a problem with it yet.

[Runelore]

black and white are fine to run together becuase you do get an added bonus of vindicate and you can just run 3-4 flagstones to search out you scrubs or godless shrines.

The problem is that if you have a world queller and no bitterblossom you'll never be able to have them sac a creautre. At that point the deck just becomes more inconsistent.

Something that separates the two is leyline main. The deck with leyline main would wreck your face im almost sure 9/10 jsut cause you cant recur lands and if it combo's it just wins and you cant do anything about it. Stax was built to stop combo but the deck is built with the same shell so the combo isnt stopped or slowed down even by a similar deck.

Another problem you have to think of is now basic lands....Since you are splashing colors for consistency you have to give up basic lands and that makes your deck weaker...you would know that if you palyed stax a lot because it preys on weak mana bases.


White stax shuoldnt have problems with swarms of creatures because you have 4x shostly prisions and shuold be running 3-4 magus of the tabernacle along with 1-2 tabernacle at pendrell vales...Ergo no need for wrath. One of the major strengths of stax is forcing your opponen to make hard decisions. One of my favorite parts of the deck is just playing stax and then them conceding befor you ever put counters on it because they just automatically assume that your hand is better or you wouldnt have played it. That's won me several games. When they have to decide what to sacrifice they just make bad mistakes most of the time.

ive never played with qweller but its seems slower and has a drawback of you choosing on your turn and limits you picks because you'll have to sacrifice an artifact if you want to kill their artifact...thats terrible because what if your only artifact is crucible of worlds... well then you just f'd yourself in the a. and you'll never be able to choose creature unless you have a bitterblossom...and since it is very situtational the deck becomes more INCONSISTENT which is exactly what the deck doesnt need.


The only other stax type deck besides white and black I think would be green...since red stax is kinda like dragon stompy... but green has the biggest advantage imo due to exploration. Exploration allows for you to wasteland lock or ghost quarter lock you opponent out of the game rather fast. also lets you accel and do many other things with cards like glacial chasm...cant be dealt dmg period. but thats a whole another discussion in it self.

[Maveric78f]

From your list [f]lip, I think that you don't want to run any of your non-permanent spells

4 BW fetches
2 swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas (for braids and random legendary creatures the opponent plays)
4 Scrublands
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 mox D

4 world queller
4 Braids

4 bitter blossom
3 trinisphere
4 chalice
2 crucible
4 ghostly prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Elspeth

13 (including flagstones) permanent creators.
8 stax effects (but no stax)
60 permanents
A bad curve (29 0 CC, 8 2CC, 12 3CC, 7 4CC, 4 5CC)

[f|i[p]]

The problem is that if you have a world queller and no bitterblossom you'll never be able to have them sac a creautre. At that point the deck just becomes more inconsistent.

So Braids with bitter blossom will get them to sac a creature? Braids without bitterblossom is the same but worse... They can get to choose.




ive never played with qweller but its seems slower and has a drawback of you choosing on your turn and limits you picks because you'll have to sacrifice an artifact if you want to kill their artifact...thats terrible because what if your only artifact is crucible of worlds... well then you just f'd yourself in the a. and you'll never be able to choose creature unless you have a bitterblossom...and since it is very situtational the deck becomes more INCONSISTENT which is exactly what the deck doe

I am not saying the world queller is a great card. As I said it is a turn slower... Your argument is wrong however. If I wanted him to sacrifice his artifact, It will be a good exchange if it is such a problem(even if I only have one artifact in play). If braids was in its place, the opponent would have a choice, and its very unlikely that the person would sacrifice his artifact... The only advantage queller has over braids is being able to state which card type is sacrificed,being non legendary and having a 4/4 body. The disadvantage however is being a little slower overall.




White stax shuoldnt have problems with swarms of creatures because you have 4x shostly prisions and shuold be running 3-4 magus of the tabernacle along with 1-2 tabernacle at pendrell vales...Ergo no need for wrath. One of the major strengths of stax is forcing your opponen to make hard decisions. One of my favorite parts of the deck is just playing stax and then them conceding befor you ever put counters on it because they just automatically assume that your hand is better or you wouldnt have played it. That's won me several games. When they have to decide what to sacrifice they just make bad mistakes most of the time


I've been playing stax for more than a year, and dropped it(for the time being) as it was too reliant on the early draws. I can tell you that swarms are not much of a problem but it can be, elves give you head aches if you don't go first. One of the things I hate in white stax is the reliance on synergy and the first draws. Dealing with creatures like goyf or anything fat with evasion has been a problem because you'll end up needing 2 cards to answer one. Ghostly and armageddon. If its ghostly alone, players can just pay 2 to get one through, and trust me, that's usually all they need. Magus and armageddon. THe decks reliance on armageddon is a head ache at times. Dutch stax is quite better, as it ran humility which is a 1 card answer. Moats are 1 card answer as well for most of the creatures in the format. Hence I went back to wrath.. Having a smokestack, online and getting rid of all their creatures is quite good since it makes them start from scratch.


The only valid point you made was the mana base.. Stax has a generally has an ok mana base. But I don't think a white base splashing black for bitterblossom woul'd make it as bad as you are implying.

I was also tinkering around the Idea of ajani goldmane, humility bitterblossom.... Which actually might be better over all. I was just tinkering with world queller..

I am not saying this is a perfect idea, having white base with a black splash. They are just thoughts. ... Still , stax's main problem are consistency and not being able to throw in some soft locks early on.

Having leyline and helm combo looks good, but I'm not sold on it yet.


@Maveric78f

I've been playing this on mws lately, and having few vindicates, armageddons 2 wraths hasn't been a problem soo far. But I will have to play some more...I am just playing and testing if world quellers are even worth the 5 mana for its advantages. If they are not, then away they go.

Mana curve...more testing...I am just playing around with the list for now.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Having leyline and helm combo looks good, but I'm not sold on it yet.


I'll throw in 5 dollars.. still no?
*hangs head*

yes.. I did log in just to make a bad joke. Sue me -.-


It has its good and bad sides, like I've pointed out before

Good
-nearly instant win
-Has potential of coming out fast
-blends in with concept of deck and colors fairly smoothly
-vs the decks leyline is actually not just a dead card :P

Bad
-takes up a lot of deck space, more than painter. Sucks 'cause 4 Leyline is bare minimum and I would say at least 2+ Helm
-Defense against combo is minimal. With no Chant, have to make use of contamination or Stax them into the ground then combo out otherwise this combo is a sitting duck against hate which I learned fast. Ppl aren't stupid

Before I used Parallax Nexus, which had its usefulness but I took it out 'cause I needed more room. I could remove their hand from the game, drop Helm and combo out which I did in a few games. With smokestack out, during your upkeep when you put it on the stack you can sac it to smokestack when you're out of counters. Fun card, would only consider if I took out combo but at this point... taking out 2 cards that win the game even if I'm at 3 life lol, I'll pass

[Runelore]

The Helm combo should be a back up win strategy...worst case scneraio it pulls a creature out fo their deck instead of comboing off and you still defend or win. Its great synergy ffor a deck that doesnt really need anything else to be added.

Think about this. Take helm and leyline out and then put something else in what do you put in? Look at the sideboard and all of a sudden you need something for graveyard hate? crypt or relic? definatly not with chalice...

Maybe you blend black and white (scrubs and godless shrine with karakas for braids) and and just at world kweller and elspeth... that will give you 6 stax effect combos... then you can even use armageddon....Elspeth and qweller give you yet another win condition adn qweller only needs to swing 3 times with elspeth.

By the way... I havent had any luck iwth dutch stax and think it blows.... just my 2 cents.