Jedi Mind Tricks

[Manhattan]

Jedi Mind Trick

1. In Star Wars movies it's a utilization of the Force that Jedis use to persuade others to do their will.

2. Simply, it refers to when someone who thinks he/she is an authority on something tries to convert or convince someone to believe something ridiculous or do something stupid by double talk, gab, outright lying, deception, utilization of ignorance or just plain bullshit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-TURhK90_8

So let's have 'em. Your MTG-Jedi Mind Tricks.

[ELD]

Playing Vintage with a sub par Chains of Mephistophles deck. I resolve Ancestral Recall, then drop a land and some other card from my hand. My last card in hand is Duress. I ask my opponent if I've played a land, and he says yes. I pass back to him, he draws a counter to go along with his Duress. He thinks for a moment, then passes back to me, as he doesn't want to waste his duress on my "land." I then topdeck Yawgmoth's Will, Duress to clear the way, and blow him out.

The best move I've seen someone else do was in response to an opponents Braingeiser for 10. He cast intution with only a land left in hand. He picks up his deck like he won the lottery, then throws down 1 misdirection, a second misdirection, then pretends to be shocked as he can't find another misdirection. He "can't believe" he boarded a Misdirection out, even though they're in the deck. He grabs a Force Spike, upset that he obviously can't Mis'd it now. Of course, his opponent believes he's got the U card in hand, and he gives him the Force Spike.

[quicksilver]

The best move I've seen someone else do was in response to a Braingeiser for 10. He had only a land left in hand. He picks up his deck like he won the lottery, then throws down 1 misdirection, a second misdirection, then pretends to be shocked as he can't find another misdirection. He "can't believe" he boarded a Misdirection out, even though they're in the deck. He grabs a Force Spike, upset that he obviously can't Mis'd it now. Of course, his opponent believes he's got the U card in hand, and he gives him the Force Spike.

You story would be a lot better if you mentioned that he played an intuition in response to the Braingeiser . Took me a while to figure out why the hell he was randomly pulling misdirections out of his library and why he could possibly need 3 of them.

Also took me a while to figure out if it was in response to his or his opponents Braingeiser (figured out it was his opponents).

[Bryant Cook]

Well I don't know if it counts as a mindtrick.

I had played Turn 1 Chrome Mox removing Tendrils of Agony. Later on in the game I had cast Diminishing Returns into Mox, Infernal Tutor x2, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond and 2 irrelevant cards. I played Mox (removing Infernal) Ritual, LED, Infernal (BBBB in pool). I asked "scoop?".

My opponent then picked up his deck.

[Manhattan]

Saw something odd recently.
Player A attacks with 2/2 first striker, player B blocks with 1/1. Then player B pings the 2/2 for 1. Player A uses Harms Way to redirect the damage thinking it would've been lethal to his creature. Funny part was Player B had also missed that first strike had prevented the damage from the 1/1. Accidental Jedi Mind Trick I suppose.

[Ectoplasm]

One guy was going off with ANT turn 2 in my face, fizzles and decides to quit at 1 life, clears up his mana using tutors and the like to grab stuff to make sure he's gonna win next turn unless I kill him. I have 2 lands out and no guys (playing goblins), say nothing and reveal my goblin warchief to him, he sighs and scoops and I'm happy because I didn't have the 3rd land to cast it :D

[leander?]

I like this thread:). It's much better than those boring "best play evahr" topics.

[troopatroop]

Played Zoo to a top 4 finish last week at a local tournament. Round two I'm playing against Secret Force, which if you don't know is a G/W Natural Order deck. I have a Lavamancer in play, but am putting basically 0 pressure on the guy, when he resolves a turn 3 Natural Order. I look down at the Path to Exile in my hand, and while I know he doesn't play Progenitus, He does play Plated Slagwurm. I knew I needed to say something to indicate that I had no answer to something without Shroud anyways, and that it was safe to get greedy. I say...

"Ahh Shit, now Verdant Force just rapes me."

He smiles a bit, and puts Phantom Nishoba into play. I happily Path it EOT, and start sending burn to his face while a Troll hits me a bunch. He plays another Natural Order a couple turns later and goes for Slagwurm, but it's too late. I have just enough mana to Scroll, Lavamancer, and Helix him (off the top!) FTW. It's worth noting that STP would have lost this game for me straight up. Fun times.

[DrJones]

I remember on a limited game of Odyssey that I was playing a G/W deck and my opponent played Kamahl, Pit Fighter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106398), which killed all my creatures and then went for the safe route of a lightning to the head every turn. I had a few cards in my hand that I couldn't play because they would be destroyed, and only saw a way to get out of that mess...

I started playing as if I were in top deck mode, casting every single creature I drew from the top of my library as kahmal fodder. That process was repeated for a few turns, until I drew a land. I *gasped* at that point and put the land into play, clearly revealing that I hadn't draw a creature that turn. My opponent smiled and attacked with a 6/1 hasted kahmal...

... just to see him destroyed by an Elephant Ambush (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=32919). :tongue:

[beastman]

One of my friends made it to the finals of a T2 PTQ playing dragonstorm....without dragons in the deck.

[gravemind123]

I was playing Solidarity and had run out of drawspells while he had lethal on the board. I used my final Meditate into something like 3x Island, FoW and then proceeded to use my last Impulse for 3x Island and Turnabout. I play the Reset in my hand with my last two mana, tap down the creatures and ask "Storm count?" and then "Cards in library?" and it was enough for me to Freeze him to no cards, so he concedes.

Similarly, I played against a guy where I Twincasted a Meditate and he immediately scooped when I said "Nice!" after drawing my 8. He then proceeded to say my deck was "Gay", "No fun" and "Like masturbation".

Acting like you did well while playing combo is a great mind trick, as people seem to scoop when they feel they've lost, even if you can't actually win.

[Valtrix]

One of my friends made it to the finals of a T2 PTQ playing dragonstorm....without dragons in the deck.

This is amazing. Did they lose because they actually had to reveal that they didn't have dragons at some point? :P

[beastman]

Yeah, I was amazed at how every one of his opponents just scooped, never even asked to see it, then in game 1 of the finals, his opponent scooped again, but just decided to actually ask to see the dragons as he reached for his deck to scoop in game 2. The look on my friends face was priceless.

[Valtrix]

Should have had the dragons in the board :P

[beastman]

We couldn't find any.

[frogboy]

One of my friends made it to the finals of a T2 PTQ playing dragonstorm....without dragons in the deck.

Pretty sure this is an urban legend. Where and when was the PTQ?

Also, if it is true, dude is an idiot.

[beastman]

This was back when it was still U/r dragonstorm, it was at dreamwizards like 3 years ago, I don't remember the exact date.

[DrJones]

Another one from the Odyssey limited tournament. I was playing against a dude that was playing threshold and had a Springing Tiger. We were both low on life and I had Kirtar's Wrath on hand, but didn't want to play it because he had still many cards in hand and anything he could play later would kill me. Things looked very bad to me. So when he announces that he is going to attack, I pass my hand over my library like trying to invoke the heart of the cards and jokingly say "Where's my wrath of god when I need one?"

He then laughs and says "You know, there's indeed one in this set", and I reply "Really?", he then decides that there's no reason to keep the cards in his hand and plays two werebears and a mystic visionary...

just to get all them wrathed and die on the next 2 turns to spirit tokens. :cool:

[ThatGuyThere]

One of my friends made it to the finals of a T2 PTQ playing dragonstorm....without dragons in the deck.


Pretty sure this is an urban legend. Where and when was the PTQ?


This was back when it was still U/r dragonstorm, it was at dreamwizards like 3 years ago, I don't remember the exact date.

*Ahem*

I believe the expression is pics, or it didn't happen.

[Manhattan]

While this wasn't exactly a mind trick I wouldn't mind if it happened more often. I go Fetchland, Go. He goes Mountain, Lackey, Go. I fetch, play Land and cast a 1/2 Tarmogoyf. He scoops.

[frogboy]

This was back when it was still U/r dragonstorm, it was at dreamwizards like 3 years ago, I don't remember the exact date.

There were no individual Standard PTQs between Time Spiral's release and this season. New Jersey Regionals 07 does not contain a Dragonstorm list in the finals. 06/07 data on States isn't available for Maryland, but I am pretty doubtful.

[rockout]

First:
Just shuffled my library. Had cb out with no hand. I tell my opponent there is a 3 drop on top and he shouldn't do it. He casts maelstrom pulse on cb. I reveal Rhox Warmonk. Get There!

Second:
Playing against combo with landstill. He goes off and asks me whats the right play: warrens or dimishing returns? I say diminishing returns so you can kill me this turn. He goes for warrens and puts 18 dudes into play with me being at 19 with a mage naming tendrils. He duresses an ee out of my hand and I proceed to rip ee off the top and kill all his guys.

[Manhattan]

First:
Just shuffled my library. Had cb out with no hand. I tell my opponent there is a 3 drop on top and he shouldn't do it. He casts maelstrom pulse on cb. I reveal Rhox Warmonk. Get There!

Second:
Playing against combo with landstill. He goes off and asks me whats the right play: warrens or dimishing returns? I say diminishing returns so you can kill me this turn. He goes for warrens and puts 18 dudes into play with me being at 19 with a mage naming tendrils. He duresses an ee out of my hand and I proceed to rip ee off the top and kill all his guys.

Let me restate what a Jedi Mind Trick is. It is an action you take that missleads your opponent into doing something favourable for you he wouldn't have normally done. It's not a topdeck.

[DrJones]

I think he was playing Sensei's Divining Top. But I might be wrong there.

[Bryant Cook]

Second:
Playing against combo with landstill. He goes off and asks me whats the right play: warrens or dimishing returns? I say diminishing returns so you can kill me this turn. He goes for warrens and puts 18 dudes into play with me being at 19 with a mage naming tendrils. He duresses an ee out of my hand and I proceed to rip ee off the top and kill all his guys.

First off, fuck you.

Secondly, it's not a mindtrick you bastard. You didn't know it was there.

Lastly, I still made top 8. :)

[Zork]

Playing kiki-combo flash at GP flash, I was playing round 1 against a Deadguy deck with at least 400 pieces of flash hate in the board. G2 he gets two leyline in play, but I draw a Rushing River. The turn before I can play it and win, he drops a pithing needle, so I mutter something about cutting off my token guy. Taking the bait, he names kiki-jiki and I instead just beat his face with a 5/5 Carrion Feeder and Protean Hulk.

[on1y0ne]

Playing a game of Standard using Red/Black Aggro vs. Faeries, my opponent played a Mistbind Clique on my turn. I tell him that it comes into play but with the Champion trigger on the stack, I kill it. He thinks for a second then says it is OK. I then ask if he is going to champion anything and he says yes. I ask what and he chooses his Puppeteer Clique, which had beaten me down to five. He tried to take it back, but to no avail.

I am OK with a terror killing two flyers in a single shot. I cost him the game, forcing a game three, which I won.

[Jade]

From a SCG article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15701.html):


He goes for Early Harvest, and with a great show of triumph I slam up Remand. Understand that I know this does nothing. If he allows my Remand to resolve, he can simply recast the Early Harvest at his leisure and go on to win. Having made a big show of my Remand, I allow my face to fall. "Ah," I say. "Ah." And now I look positively crestfallen. And I start muttering aloud as if I’m working out the possibilities, and then, with a look of disgust, say, "but you just tutor for your own Remand, use the Top and win." [...] I decide it’s time for the haymaker. "Remand Remand Remand, why’d they print such a stupid card? Get Remand, cast Remand, I win, great. Yeah, never mind, Rich, at least you’re playing Remand too." Yes, I squeezed six uses of the word Remand into that little diatribe.

He gets the Remand, casts it, and I of course Spell Snare it.

[Rood]

I played a Dreadnought once against a Faerie player a while back. I go for Dreadnought which resolve then a Stifle. It was really my only chance to win and all I had was Daze backup. So he had like 3 untapped lands and goes for the Spellstutter sprite on my Stifle. I am just staring at my Daze in hand knowing he has an untapped land. Noticing it was farther back from the rest of his lands I confidently play the Daze acting like he just got owned. He sighs and lets the Dreadnought resolve...then dies shortly after.

[DrJones]

Heh, that reminds me of the good ol' times when I just pointed with Diabolic Edict the card I wanted to destroy and the opponent just followed my words. :laugh:

[Ectoplasm]

Heh, that reminds me of the good ol' times when I just pointed with Diabolic Edict the card I wanted to destroy and the opponent just followed my words. :laugh:

Hahaha that's great :D Gotta try that one.

[freakish777]

I think my favorite bluff can be found at the end of this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9075.html). There's also a link in there to the actually T8 match footage.

I mean how bad ass do you have to be to run "I'm just a newb who plays MTGO and can't remember my own life total" as a bluff and get Frank Karsten to eat it up.

Bluffs are far more important in limited than Legacy, and at that far more important in Poker than Magic, as a result I tend not to focus too much on running bluffs in Magic (also many people have pointed out I "get excited").

[Manhattan]

Heh, that reminds me of the good ol' times when I just pointed with Diabolic Edict the card I wanted to destroy and the opponent just followed my words. :laugh:

Or when you cast Cabal Therapy you explain the card starting with "I get to look at your hand and I need to name a card first ..." sometimes players don't wait for you to finish the sentence then you can take a good look before yelling "hang on!".
Not that I've actually done that in a tournament, but would this be legal?

[jthanatos]

Or when you cast Cabal Therapy you explain the card starting with "I get to look at your hand and I need to name a card first ..." sometimes players don't wait for you to finish the sentence then you can take a good look before yelling "hang on!".
Not that I've actually done that in a tournament, but would this be legal?


3.11 Hidden Information
Throughout the match, a draft, and pregame procedures, players are responsible for keeping their cards above the level of the playing surface and for making reasonable efforts to prevent hidden information from being revealed. However, players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available only to them, unless specifically prohibited by the rules. Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them.

As long as you don't intentionally try to mislead them, once your opponent dumps his or her hand on the table, you are fine to look at it. Happens more than you think with Vendillion Clique when your opponent will reveal his or her hand to you before you have declared the target for the ability.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I think my favorite bluff can be found at the end of this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9075.html). There's also a link in there to the actually T8 match footage.

I mean how bad ass do you have to be to run "I'm just a newb who plays MTGO and can't remember my own life total" as a bluff and get Frank Karsten to eat it up.

Bluffs are far more important in limited than Legacy, and at that far more important in Poker than Magic, as a result I tend not to focus too much on running bluffs in Magic (also many people have pointed out I "get excited").

Just watched that coverage. The article makes the bluff sound more dramatic but it was still a really savage mind game.

[TrialByFire]

Happens more than you think with Vendillion Clique when your opponent will reveal his or her hand to you before you have declared the target for the ability.

I watched a guy do this in Top 8 of Vintage Tourney. He played Clique, the kid layed his hand on the table without giving him a chance to say who he's targeting. He proceeded to write every card down, then told him he was targeting himself. Judge watched the whole thing.

[Kuma]

I was playing with Faerie Stompy against Enchantress. It was game two; I had lost the first one and things were looking bleak. The Enchantress player was at six, but he had two Argothian Enchantresses, a boatload of enchantments, and a handful of cards. The game would likely be out of my reach if he got another turn. I had two Trinket Mages and a Pestermite. I think for a moment, and realize my only way to win this game is if he forgets about his Enchantresses. I move to combat and tap all three of my creatures saying, "Swing for lethal?"

He scoops up his cards and we go to game three.

I win the match too.

[dahcmai]

We have a ton of these from our area.


1. My favorite has to be taunting people with a card they fear. I'd say things like "ok, which creature needs to get swords'd first?" or "chancy going down that far playing against a deck with Lightning bolts" (Ad Nauseam vs Canadian Thresh). I have a habit of holding one card apart from the others just to make people wonder. Especially works well against a combo deck.

2. A friend of mine did this one to me recently and I still have to laugh. I was playing Fetchland tendrils. He was playing some sort of control deck similar to faeries. Anyway, I punch through the first batch of counters to ramp up to 10 storm and he drops a card and quickly picks it up. Of course, it's a FOW. He has 2 cards in hand in a virtually mono-U deck and I have to take a chance on casting Infernal while cracking an LED. Crap. I'm not dumping my hand and staying open. So I pass.

Eventually, I build up enough to push again and have Chant back up, but he mentioned afterwards that he had nothing and knew I was just about to win. He dropped the Force on purpose to show it to me since he knew I wouldn't miss it. It bought him time. I agree, yes it did. and laughed.

3. One of my freinds is notorious for tapping mana to show a particular pattern for the deck he's playing. Such as in standard tapping 3 blue and then one colorless, then untapping them as if changing his mind. Shows a Cryptic Command in that format defined easily by that mana. So in Legacy he'll tap out for whatever card might be useful for the time such as Krosan Grip mana, untap, then wait. Stalls people horrendously.

4. Asking "Good Game" in mid combo is always a hilarious one. I've removed all win conditions before and managed to pull out of it.

5. Had a deck that actually had no win conditions, but could shoot up in life so far it was past most deck's ability to do that much damage. I won a whole tournament just by getting concessions when I was at over 300 or so life.

6. 43 Lands is a great deck to get auto concessions out of. When you can do the first turn Manabond and dump your hand on the table.

Lastly, we had one guy noted for being an extremely good player go into a Chaos multiplayer tournament. He plays a land each turn and nothing else keeping a hand full of seven cards. People just look over and see that massive pile of mana, the stern look, and the possibility of getting the wrath of whatever he's packing so they leave him alone for the whole tournament.

Eventually, it's down to the last person. Then our resident pro tosses down his hand and says "you win". As everyone is slightly puzzled, he flips over the deck and shows it's nothing more than 60 basic lands. Not a bad way to get 2nd place.

[Pulp_Fiction]

A long ass time ago during a draft, I believe it was 3 packs of Torment but not sure. I was playing against this kid who was a decent player named Kevin and he was very easy to rattle. We used to always say "Kevin, your mom is here" and he looked everytime. It was fuckin pro! Anyway, I destroyed him game 1 but my deck decided it hated me on the second game and Kevin was drawing all of his bombs. I had a small army on my side and he had me dead on the board after he drew some other flyer. But I just drew Ambassador Laquatus, the guy who mills for 3 when you pay 3 colorless and I noticed I had enough mana to deck him in 3 more turns. So, after I drop Laquatus and tell Kevin to go I start talking to him about the car his mom drives, which is a Touareg (VW SUV) and then I keep asking "are you done yet Kevin, can I go, can I go?" And amazingly to my suprise he passed the turn with lethal damage on the board, so I say EOT mill you for 9 (this was fucking late in the game). I draw another pointless land and say go. On his turn I do the same thing except I got a little louder and I started saying "is it my turn yet Kevin, you are taking forever, can I go, can I go??" Still expecting him to swing and kill me dead he passes the turn!!!! I say EOT mill you for 12 and he has like 6 cards left in his library. On my turn I mill the rest of his library away and pass it back for the win!!!! And then I went on to split in the finals! This was certainly the closest thing I have done to a Jedi Mind Trick!

[The Grim Reaper]

A long ass time ago during a draft, I believe it was 3 packs of Torment but not sure. I was playing against this kid who was a decent player named Kevin and he was very easy to rattle. We used to always say "Kevin, your mom is here" and he looked everytime. It was fuckin pro! Anyway, I destroyed him game 1 but my deck decided it hated me on the second game and Kevin was drawing all of his bombs. I had a small army on my side and he had me dead on the board after he drew some other flyer. But I just drew Ambassador Laquatus, the guy who mills for 3 when you pay 3 colorless and I noticed I had enough mana to deck him in 3 more turns. So, after I drop Laquatus and tell Kevin to go I start talking to him about the car his mom drives, which is a Touareg (VW SUV) and then I keep asking "are you done yet Kevin, can I go, can I go?" And amazingly to my suprise he passed the turn with lethal damage on the board, so I say EOT mill you for 9 (this was fucking late in the game). I draw another pointless land and say go. On his turn I do the same thing except I got a little louder and I started saying "is it my turn yet Kevin, you are taking forever, can I go, can I go??" Still expecting him to swing and kill me dead he passes the turn!!!! I say EOT mill you for 12 and he has like 6 cards left in his library. On my turn I mill the rest of his library away and pass it back for the win!!!! And then I went on to split in the finals! This was certainly the closest thing I have done to a Jedi Mind Trick!

This is not a Jedi Mind Trick. It is just plain unkind and unsportsmanlike. You see in order for it to be a trick you have to actually trick them, not exploit some poor kid's ADD or whatever.

To contribute: You'd be surprised how long you can stall your opponent while keeping 2 blue mana open and telling them to "hold on a sec" or you "need to think" after each spell they play. Most players will hold back their bombs.

[Dan Turner]

Actually this just happened about 30 mins ago. I was playing solidarity so i go to combo out get down to maybe 4 cards left in the deck (storm count is above 40) my friend looks at me and I ask him if he has a counter spell, he says no and scoops...last 4 cards in my deck were my 3 wishes and my only brain freeze. no other main deck win con. he looked at me and was mad. (we played for $20 a game tonight) So i ended the night with enough to get me a box just by asking for a counterspell.

[GreenOne]

You'd be surprised how long you can stall your opponent while keeping 2 blue mana open and telling them to "hold on a sec" or you "need to think" after each spell they play. Most players will hold back their bombs.
I do it all the time playing Doomsday or AnT! Well, not exactly keeping mana open, but just not playing Mysticals and Infernals until they're necessary. Fortunately, blue has FoW to feint. :) People also use their card selection (Brainstorm, Ponder, SDT) to find Threats and Critter Removal more than counters if they believe you're another blue based aggrocontrol deck.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This is not a Jedi Mind Trick. It is just plain unkind and unsportsmanlike. You see in order for it to be a trick you have to actually trick them, not exploit some poor kid's ADD or whatever.

To contribute: You'd be surprised how long you can stall your opponent while keeping 2 blue mana open and telling them to "hold on a sec" or you "need to think" after each spell they play. Most players will hold back their bombs.

Totally disagree, it was not unsportsmanlike at all, everyone was friends there and we all annoyed the shit out of eachother while playing. It was some kind of trick, be it jedi-like or not, but it won me cards and the Jedis' are winners :) And for the record, be it kind or not, I completely tricked him into losing the game.

[Dan Turner]

Totally disagree, it was not unsportsmanlike at all, everyone was friends there and we all annoyed the shit out of eachother while playing. It was some kind of trick, be it jedi-like or not, but it won me cards and the Jedis' are winners :) And for the record, be it kind or not, I completely tricked him into losing the game.

It is more like a Sith power called "being a dick". Jedi win by fair play and out thinking the opponent not bulling them. Honestly if the happened around me you would be thrown out of the store I have seen players try it and that is what happens.

[Raider Bob]

Better yet is when your playing a control deck and you have had 5 or 6 turns and your opponent says, you have to have counters by now and says lets goto game 3. When you see all whit cards in your hand and say ok.

[Shriekmaw]

A long ass time ago during a draft, I believe it was 3 packs of Torment but not sure. I was playing against this kid who was a decent player named Kevin and he was very easy to rattle. We used to always say "Kevin, your mom is here" and he looked everytime. It was fuckin pro! Anyway, I destroyed him game 1 but my deck decided it hated me on the second game and Kevin was drawing all of his bombs. I had a small army on my side and he had me dead on the board after he drew some other flyer. But I just drew Ambassador Laquatus, the guy who mills for 3 when you pay 3 colorless and I noticed I had enough mana to deck him in 3 more turns. So, after I drop Laquatus and tell Kevin to go I start talking to him about the car his mom drives, which is a Touareg (VW SUV) and then I keep asking "are you done yet Kevin, can I go, can I go?" And amazingly to my suprise he passed the turn with lethal damage on the board, so I say EOT mill you for 9 (this was fucking late in the game). I draw another pointless land and say go. On his turn I do the same thing except I got a little louder and I started saying "is it my turn yet Kevin, you are taking forever, can I go, can I go??" Still expecting him to swing and kill me dead he passes the turn!!!! I say EOT mill you for 12 and he has like 6 cards left in his library. On my turn I mill the rest of his library away and pass it back for the win!!!! And then I went on to split in the finals! This was certainly the closest thing I have done to a Jedi Mind Trick!


I can't believe you would tell this story and be proud how you actually won the game by being unsportsmanlike and breaking the rules of the game. You have to think to yourself what kind of player you actually are if you will go to any length to win a freakin' card game.

I try to play this game with a lot of respect not only for myself, but for everyone else as well. Regardless of what people may think of some of my post on these forms, I one of the nicest magic card player to play against in actually tournaments because I hold a very high level of respect for everyone.

[Ectoplasm]

I remember someone saying 'try to be that guy everybody likes playing against' and yes, he was right.

[iamajellydonut]

Two favorite mind tricks.

Asking for Browbeat targets. (Browbeat, lol. I know. Whatever. I't saved my ass.)

Only actually got this to happen once. Kudos to the guy on Gleemax for thinking of this. p.s. This was pre-M10.
Opponent's combo ready to go off. Mana in pool. Pause him and ask for priority. Move to combat phase.

[mossivo1986]

I do agree with the find a feared card and use it as bate for mind trickery theory. Personally i'm a talker in tourneys. This is especially useful when I play against players who think its their manifest destiny to win said tournament and that because they don't know me that they should win. Generally these are very quiet players who pay extremely close attention to the game. The idea is that if your confident enough in your deck and your skill you can focus more on playing the positive mind games on your opponent. They tend to lose focus on board position for small bits at a time and thats precisely when your able to gain your advantage. It works game 1's primarily as it allows you to get something in play thats lethal to their board position.

Then when you shuffle for the next game using that one card as bait you talk to them about how powerful it is and your not suprised that they got caught off gaurd by said play which ended up beating them. Thats when you can bait that reaction as if your going to play said combination/ or card and hoze them for overprotecting themselves against it. I've won so many games off of playing to my decks advantages and my own positive attitude.

Also a specific jedi mind trick that I happen to partake in is with vendillion clique. Saying the words cast vendillion clique? or Resolve? and they nod and dump their hand. This happens ALL the time. It's actually rediculous how many players you can jedi mind trick into dumping their hand.

Another might be when I played U.R Izzetron in standard regionals a while back. I was sitting against an R.I.W. player (known for cockiness" in a bad game 2 situation. He had lethal on the board and didn't have to do anything in order to win. I on the other hand was stuck with compulsive research, demonfire, and a second unplayable land in my hand. I knew he had counter-magic, so the demonfire with no hellbent wasn't good. He had plagiarize'd me the game before. So I cast compulsive research and I say "well... go ahead and plagiarize me." Sure enough he bites and I discard the land(, giving me just enough to demonfire him for nine hellbent (lethal) He gives me the "Thats the absolute only way you could have won was with a lethal demonfire!" grabs the match slip, signs, and walks away a tortured soul.

I'll post more later.

[PhanTom_lt]

Two favorite mind tricks.

Asking for Browbeat targets. (Browbeat, lol. I know. Whatever. I't saved my ass.)

Only actually got this to happen once. Kudos to the guy on Gleemax for thinking of this. p.s. This was pre-M10.
Opponent's combo ready to go off. Mana in pool. Pause him and ask for priority. Move to combat phase.

The second one is illegal. If a player specifically asks for priority and does nothing with it, i.e. passes, his opponent can resume his phase.

[Manhattan]

I and my opponent shuffle up before the match. He throws the die but only glances at it before continuing to shuffle. I throw the die for a lower number but say with full confidence "I'll go first.".
He looks a little confused but then says "Ok."

[Ectoplasm]

I and my opponent shuffle up before the match. He throws the die but only glances at it before continuing to shuffle. I throw the die for a lower number but say with full confidence "I'll go first.".
He looks a little confused but then says "Ok."

:laugh: That's great
Me at 3 life playing landstill, hand filled with counters staring down 2 cursecatchers after having to break his standstill, I sigh and ask 'are you holding any lords?' and he promptly drops them on the table for me, I pass the turn and counter his shit, thanks for the information :D
I ended up losing that game but I thought it was pretty neat anyway.

[Nightmare]

I and my opponent shuffle up before the match. He throws the die but only glances at it before continuing to shuffle. I throw the die for a lower number but say with full confidence "I'll go first.".
He looks a little confused but then says "Ok."

Also illegal. You aren't allowed to mis-represent the results of a randomization for choice of who plays and draws.

[DrJones]

The second one is illegal. If a player specifically asks for priority and does nothing with it, i.e. passes, his opponent can resume his phase.In fact, it became illegal after the trick became popular because it was busted.

[emidln]

In the last grinder for GP Chicago I'm playing against Merfolk in round 2. I'm packing a 4 Duress, 3 Pyroblast, 1 Chant list of ANT/Doomsday and I win game one while showboating for the crowd that develops around us. In game two I do my best big tourney routine of talking a lot when my opponent recognizes the EMIDLN on my playmat. I confirm that I'm the combo player from the internet and we shuffle up for g2.

He loses an early Standstill and is pretty depressed about his hand. I'm not drawing any accel at all and can't find a bomb either. I begin making my land drops while using REB/Duress to keep him from even considering plays. He gets some dudes, begins the beats, and I'm low on life. My hand is pretty marginal with double Mystical Tutor, a chant, and a dark rit + two more lands when he puts me on my final turn with a resolved lord. I quick play a Mystical Tutor on his end step asking if I can go get my Doomsday to win now. He nervously says wait and just looks at me. I count my cards in hand and lands in play for his benefit before he decides to tap out for FoW. I calc up the life he has and my storm and Mystical again. It resolves and I immediately go for my only out, a meditate into the nuts (draws me 4 cards and I skip a turn).

At this point I need like runner, runner, with 2 additional decent cards to even think about winning this game. I untap, Chant him which runs into Daze that I pay for and start in with the Rit + Meditate. I'm at 4 storm and manage to hit one of my out draws: Mystical, SDT, LED, Brainstorm. I count up my mana and realize that I'm short a mana for IGG to do anything relevant. I have the choice of Brainstorming into a +2 ritual effect (4 left in the deck) or going for Mystical -> Tendrils, LED, Top that should leave him at 1 life.

I decide all of this in moments while I'm making my plays (lots of practice) and smoothly Mystical tutor. He asks for spell count and I give it to him at which point I realize that he has already lost the game in his head. I then flip my hand face up (which gets a pale look), cast SDT, and tap top, breaking LED for BBB floating BBBB into the Tendrils that I just windmill onto the table while I extend my hand. I think I see movement to my right (where some friends were observing) and catch Dave Caplan ushering Lam Phan from the area. My opponent looks at his life pad (which reads 19 mind you), says something about Force of Will, and then takes my hand before grabbing the match slip and signing 2-0. I thank him, wish him luck in the GP, and move to my friends who are staring at me in utter disbelief. As we're walking away, Lam points out that my opponent wasn't dead to which I responded that he appeared to scoop up his cards and concede.

A slightly shorter tale:

I'm playing NLS in Boston against Thrash. It's game one and I pulled off a turn 1 Duress, Mox, LED into an eot Mystical Tutor to set up the turn 2 Ad Nauseam. I'm clear and go for Rit and break my LED for BLACK mana against all advice that I normally give out. I proceed to draw Ad Nauseam and float B when I cast it. I proceed to draw like 25 cards while looking for a win condition. At 5 life I flip a Tendrils of Agony and mentally despair as I stop the Ad Nauseam. I startt separating my cards into a pile of free mana, rituals, duresses, and the Tendrils while counting under my breath and making notes on my pad to count storm. I ask "move to main phase?" (which is where I burn to death if he passes back) to which my opponent tells me I don't have to because he's scooping up his cards (and he does).

[DrJones]

I was playing a game on Shandalar against my brother, when he sees me drop a forest first turn followed by a Bird of Paradise. He drops a land, pass, and then asks what deck I'm playing, because he has never seen it. I respond that it's "a deck able to play second turn Force of Nature while being able to maintain it", and I play another forest, emerald mox, black lotus and cast it. He gets absolutely dazed at my deck, so he just concedes and ask me to swap decks next game.

At next game, he suddenly discovers that my deck was nothing more than forests, a mox, a black lotus, and a single copy of every green card in the game. :tongue:

[Manhattan]

Also illegal. You aren't allowed to mis-represent the results of a randomization for choice of who plays and draws.

Well the line is thin there. I can only imagine that you are refering to section 6.2: Cheating - Fraud of the DCI Infraction Procedure Guide which gives the example "D. A player lies to his opponent about his life total."
However I didn't lie about the number I rolled, or the number he rolled, or that my number was higher. I just made a statement that mindtricked him into letting me go first.
Maybe it's only a matter of opinion but consider these sentences:
"May I go first?"
"I go first, ok?"
"I go first."
When does a naive question turn into fraud?

[mossivo1986]

I do agree with the find a feared card and use it as bate for mind trickery theory. Personally i'm a talker in tourneys. This is especially useful when I play against players who think its their manifest destiny to win said tournament and that because they don't know me that they should win. Generally these are very quiet players who pay extremely close attention to the game. The idea is that if your confident enough in your deck and your skill you can focus more on playing the positive mind games on your opponent. They tend to lose focus on board position for small bits at a time and thats precisely when your able to gain your advantage. It works game 1's primarily as it allows you to get something in play thats lethal to their board position.

Then when you shuffle for the next game using that one card as bait you talk to them about how powerful it is and your not suprised that they got caught off gaurd by said play which ended up beating them. Thats when you can bait that reaction as if your going to play said combination/ or card and hoze them for overprotecting themselves against it. I've won so many games off of playing to my decks advantages and my own positive attitude.

Also a specific jedi mind trick that I happen to partake in is with vendillion clique. Saying the words cast vendillion clique? or Resolve? and they nod and dump their hand. This happens ALL the time. It's actually rediculous how many players you can jedi mind trick into dumping their hand.

Another might be when I played U.R Izzetron in standard regionals a while back. I was sitting against an R.I.W. player (known for cockiness" in a bad game 2 situation. He had lethal on the board and didn't have to do anything in order to win. I on the other hand was stuck with compulsive research, demonfire, and a second unplayable land in my hand. I knew he had counter-magic, so the demonfire with no hellbent wasn't good. He had plagiarize'd me the game before. So I cast compulsive research and I say "well... go ahead and plagiarize me." Sure enough he bites and I discard the land(, giving me just enough to demonfire him for nine hellbent (lethal) He gives me the "Thats the absolute only way you could have won was with a lethal demonfire!" grabs the match slip, signs, and walks away a tortured soul.

I'll post more later.

[pi4meterftw]

Well the line is thin there. I can only imagine that you are refering to section 6.2: Cheating - Fraud of the DCI Infraction Procedure Guide which gives the example "D. A player lies to his opponent about his life total."
However I didn't lie about the number I rolled, or the number he rolled, or that my number was higher. I just made a statement that mindtricked him into letting me go first.
Maybe it's only a matter of opinion but consider these sentences:
"May I go first?"
"I go first, ok?"
"I go first."
When does a naive question turn into fraud?

Lol when you intend it to be a fraud. Was it really a naive question? If honestly so, then it's not cheating.

[xTrainx]

In the last grinder for GP Chicago I'm playing against Merfolk in round 2. I'm packing a 4 Duress, 3 Pyroblast, 1 Chant list of ANT/Doomsday and I win game one while showboating for the crowd that develops around us. In game two I do my best big tourney routine of talking a lot when my opponent recognizes the EMIDLN on my playmat. I confirm that I'm the combo player from the internet and we shuffle up for g2.

He loses an early Standstill and is pretty depressed about his hand. I'm not drawing any accel at all and can't find a bomb either. I begin making my land drops while using REB/Duress to keep him from even considering plays. He gets some dudes, begins the beats, and I'm low on life. My hand is pretty marginal with double Mystical Tutor, a chant, and a dark rit + two more lands when he puts me on my final turn with a resolved lord. I quick play a Mystical Tutor on his end step asking if I can go get my Doomsday to win now. He nervously says wait and just looks at me. I count my cards in hand and lands in play for his benefit before he decides to tap out for FoW. I calc up the life he has and my storm and Mystical again. It resolves and I immediately go for my only out, a meditate into the nuts (draws me 4 cards and I skip a turn).

At this point I need like runner, runner, with 2 additional decent cards to even think about winning this game. I untap, Chant him which runs into Daze that I pay for and start in with the Rit + Meditate. I'm at 4 storm and manage to hit one of my out draws: Mystical, SDT, LED, Brainstorm. I count up my mana and realize that I'm short a mana for IGG to do anything relevant. I have the choice of Brainstorming into a +2 ritual effect (4 left in the deck) or going for Mystical -> Tendrils, LED, Top that should leave him at 1 life.

I decide all of this in moments while I'm making my plays (lots of practice) and smoothly Mystical tutor. He asks for spell count and I give it to him at which point I realize that he has already lost the game in his head. I then flip my hand face up (which gets a pale look), cast SDT, and tap top, breaking LED for BBB floating BBBB into the Tendrils that I just windmill onto the table while I extend my hand. I think I see movement to my right (where some friends were observing) and catch Dave Caplan ushering Lam Phan from the area. My opponent looks at his life pad (which reads 19 mind you), says something about Force of Will, and then takes my hand before grabbing the match slip and signing 2-0. I thank him, wish him luck in the GP, and move to my friends who are staring at me in utter disbelief. As we're walking away, Lam points out that my opponent wasn't dead to which I responded that he appeared to scoop up his cards and concede.



Nice.

[Manhattan]

Lol when you intend it to be a fraud. Was it really a naive question? If honestly so, then it's not cheating.

This only begs the question when does it become the intention to be fraud. If I sincerely ask my opponent wether I may go first while he is aware that he won the die-role then clearly it isn't fraud. If he forgot that he won then how is it my business to remind him?
If I say "Ok, my turn" and my opponent forgets that it's his decision to pass the turn and nodds is that fraud too?

I also like randomly counting storm without actually playing a storm deck. "EoT Brainstorm, Stormcount is at one, thinking...hm, ok". Probably works better in some situations than in others, but it's still funny.

[DrJones]

Another Jedi Trick is asking opponents what they picked from a Demonic Tutor. It can backfire, but sometimes they answer without thinking about it.

[Ectoplasm]

Another Jedi Trick is asking opponents what they picked from a Demonic Tutor. It can backfire, but sometimes they answer without thinking about it.

Some guy I play with does that all the time, 'are you holding a fow?' 'are you gonna plow my dude?'. Usually I just shrug and say something like 'dunno man I can't remember my cards' and play on but I hate the fact that there's alot of wasted double-bluffing potential here which I haven't realized yet.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Play a Vendillion Clique and look at your opponent sideways like you're halfway thinking until they show you their hand and then say "Hey, I was thinking. Slow down. I guess I'll target myself." It actually got a guy shoved out of a top 8 when it backfired and his opponent got the bye a few months ago or something. Anyone else remember that

[hungryLIKEALION]

Play a Vendillion Clique and look at your opponent sideways like you're halfway thinking until they show you their hand and then say "Hey, I was thinking. Slow down. I guess I'll target myself." It actually got a guy shoved out of a top 8 when it backfired and his opponent got the bye a few months ago or something. Anyone else remember that

It was Martin Juza iirc, though there was more to the story than that. His opponent repeatedly revealed his hand whenever Juza cast a clique before declaring a target. The xth time, the guy slammed down a path to exile on the clique and then dropped his hand down on the table. Juza got frustrated, wrote down the guy's hand, and then declared he was targeting himself. The guy then called a judge, and Juza received a disqualification for not clearing up the illegal game state (The game state was illegal because since the PTE assumed the clique was already in play, its ability needed to already be declared and targeted before the PTE could be played.) Since Juza did not immediately tell the guy to take back the PTE, he got slammed for allowing an illegal game state to be manipulated in his favor.

[smoky squirrel]

I posted it in a similar thread, I'll guess I'll post it here also.

Back in the day I played a lot of Death&Taxes. My sideboard consisted of 14 cards so I tried a little experiment. I put in a single copy of Mana Tithe in the board.

Each match I put my deck and sideboard together in one big pile face up on the table, with the Mana Tithe on top. And then I got a few dice and a notepad from my backpack, leaving my deck clearly visible for my opponent.

In a few matches the spells of game 1 costed 1 more for my opponent :smile:

[MMogg]

I posted it in a similar thread, I'll guess I'll post it here also.

Back in the day I played a lot of Death&Taxes. My sideboard consisted of 14 cards so I tried a little experiment. I put in a single copy of Mana Tithe in the board.

Each match I put my deck and sideboard together in one big pile face up on the table, with the Mana Tithe on top. And then I got a few dice and a notepad from my backpack, leaving my deck clearly visible for my opponent.

In a few matches the spells of game 1 costed 1 more for my opponent :smile:

I like that one! :laugh: I can't cheat; it's not in my nature and I don't even enjoy when an error goes in my favour because I don't feel I've earned anything. That being said, this is a great and legal (i.e., not trying to boarderline cheat) mind game. I'll need to try that. :cool:

[sauce]

best is when people know you run dazes and then you play a blue deck that has no dazes and they still play around it.

:)

[Ectoplasm]

best is when people know you run dazes and then you play a blue deck that has no dazes and they still play around it.

:)

How about the classic singleton daze that shows up in your opening hand every now and again, and causes your opponent to play around daze all match? :tongue:

[georgjorge]

Waaaay back when I was still playing with real cards, I played some rogue UB beatdown in the Standard portion of Austrian Nationals. Not having any clue for the 15th sidebord card, I put in a Werebear as my lucky card (we all loved Werebear because the flavor text was so unbelievably stupid in German), and put it as the top card of my face-up sideboard.

Then came a round against a slightly hungover and tired opponent playing Psychatog...and he was actually confused enough to sideboard

+3 Perish

for game two, not seeing any green but somehow getting it into his head that the Werebear in my sideboard would signify a huge amount of green beatdown coming in from the side :tongue:

[ghindo]

(we all loved Werebear because the flavor text was so unbelievably stupid in German)His flavor text is equally stupid in English. :smile:

[Ectoplasm]

What's the German flavourtext? I understand German so I want to have a laugh :D

[heroicraptor]

What's the German flavourtext? I understand German so I want to have a laugh :D

Er dient nebenbei noch als Anwerbär.

[Nihil Credo]

Er dient nebenbei noch als Anwerbär.
That's a pun on Anwerbär/Anwerber, right?

[Esper3k]

I don't understand German, so could someone please explain why the flavor text is funny?

[Manhattan]

Er dient nebenbei noch als Anwerbär.

Oh my lord, I had to look that up in gatherer. It actually says that. Bär is German for bear and Anwerber translates into recruiter (He also serves as a recruiter). But what makes it really funny are all the kids from WoW I remember naming their pets Hubschraubär (Hubschrauber=helicopter).

[Ectoplasm]

Er dient nebenbei noch als Anwerbär.

That has to be the worst pun in human history :laugh:

[Ozymandias]

G2R4, I'm up 1-0 in the one-loss bracket, playing Dredge against Eva Green. I make a decent keep, but he has the Extirpate for my Careful Studied Grave-Troll, and we end up with the following board positions

My Hand: Ray of Revelation, Chain of Vapor, Stinkweed Impx2, Cephalid Coliseum x2
My board: Gemstone Mine with 2x Counters
My yard: Trash except for 1 Ichorid, 1 Therapy, and 1 Putrid Imp
His hand: Thoughtseize, Pernicious Deed, Duress
His board: Nantuko Shade, Hypnotic Specter, Pernicious Deed 3xSwamp 1x Bayou.

Life totals: me 12, him 13.

Yeah I won that game. Here's how.

1st main phase he duresses me. I respond by casting Chain of Vapor on his Nantuko Shade. Duress Reseloves and puts the Ray in my GY He picks it up, then taps two lands, plays a card down without saying anything, and says go. I look down, and show him my hand. He's dropped a Thoughtseize, and tries to take it back. Judge won't let him, and he's forced to take an Imp and put it in my yard. Then he recasts the Shade and tilt-swings with the Hyppie. Yeah, he hits the other imp.

Next turn I reanimate Ichorid, hit 2 narcomoeba and a Bridge from Below, lay Coliseum, and flashback a Ray of Revelation targeting his Deed. The turn after that, I upkeep pop Coliseum, dredge 9 cards, draw a breakthrough on the 10th, and drop my remaining coliseum to cast it.

The lesson here is simple: you can lose any game if you set your mind to it.

[sorrel]

I posted it in a similar thread, I'll guess I'll post it here also.

Back in the day I played a lot of Death&Taxes. My sideboard consisted of 14 cards so I tried a little experiment. I put in a single copy of Mana Tithe in the board.

Each match I put my deck and sideboard together in one big pile face up on the table, with the Mana Tithe on top. And then I got a few dice and a notepad from my backpack, leaving my deck clearly visible for my opponent.

In a few matches the spells of game 1 costed 1 more for my opponent :smile:
Back when I was playing Mana Tithe in Death and Taxes, every match when I would play one game one, I would board the card out. Games two and three, whenever I had a land open, I would put my finger on that untapped land and fiddle with it. I got a bunch of people to Time Walk themselves like that.

This is more recent, but I was playing against Merfolk and he was beating down with two Lords of Atlantis, and he had played a Reejery the previous turn. I had an Isamaru and an Avenger in play. I did have a Cataclysm in hand, but it might not have been enough since he had a bunch of cards in hand and a vial in play. The only way I can win is if I wrath his board. I attack with everything, and act surprised when he blocks the Isamaru. I then say something to the effect of "Since I'm not playing blue, Reejery is the best lord against me, right?" He nods his head yes. I then play Cataclysm. Like a pro, he keeps the best lord on the table, which then dies because it becomes a 2/2 with two damage on it.

[That kid you all hate]

G2R4, I'm up 1-0 in the one-loss bracket, playing Dredge against Eva Green. I make a decent keep, but he has the Extirpate for my Careful Studied Grave-Troll, and we end up with the following board positions

My Hand: Ray of Revelation, Chain of Vapor, Stinkweed Impx2, Cephalid Coliseum x2
My board: Gemstone Mine with 2x Counters
My yard: Trash except for 1 Ichorid, 1 Therapy, and 1 Putrid Imp
His hand: Thoughtseize, Pernicious Deed, Duress
His board: Nantuko Shade, Hypnotic Specter, Pernicious Deed 3xSwamp 1x Bayou.

Life totals: me 12, him 13.

Yeah I won that game. Here's how.

1st main phase he duresses me. I respond by casting Chain of Vapor on his Nantuko Shade. Duress Reseloves and puts the Ray in my GY He picks it up, then taps two lands, plays a card down without saying anything, and says go. I look down, and show him my hand. He's dropped a Thoughtseize, and tries to take it back. Judge won't let him, and he's forced to take an Imp and put it in my yard. Then he recasts the Shade and tilt-swings with the Hyppie. Yeah, he hits the other imp.

Next turn I reanimate Ichorid, hit 2 narcomoeba and a Bridge from Below, lay Coliseum, and flashback a Ray of Revelation targeting his Deed. The turn after that, I upkeep pop Coliseum, dredge 9 cards, draw a breakthrough on the 10th, and drop my remaining coliseum to cast it.

The lesson here is simple: you can lose any game if you set your mind to it.
This is so true. In a draft last friday, I was at 4, my opponent had aven squire (1/1 flying exalted) rhox bodyguard (2/3 exalted) and ardent plea (an enchantment with exalted. I screw up and swing in with my only flier and my other creatures. I don't have another flier in hand. My opponent is at 18. If he makes ANY play but chump with his flier, he wins the game. Guess what he does. I then go on to win that game and then the match.
In legacy, there have been multiple occasions of my opponents choosing to not win. One time my opponent has a ravager and a number of non-creature artifacts. He is at one, I am at nine. I control a tapped dark confidant and a tapped goyf. He can get his ravager up to an 8/8. If he does nothing, he loses. He has a good chance of winning, because if he swings, and I reveal anything but a land, he wins. After doing the math a few times, he scoops. There was a goyf on the top of my deck (I had no knowledge of the top of my library).
Another time my opponent has lethal damage on the board. All he has to do is swing with all his creatures, or else I win on the swing-back, because both of us know that I have a bolt on top of my deck. All he has to do is swing. He doesn't.

[Ziveeman]

I was playing in an M10 draft awhile back against a pretty good player. Earlier in the game I had casted an Unsummon on his Beserkers of Blood Ridge in response to an Oakenform targeting it.

After that, I had casted an Ant Queen on six lands (three Forests, three Islands), and the turn after that I cast an Air Elemental. However, when I was tapping the mana, I tapped two Islands, then was about to tap the third one but then I mumbled "no.." and then proceeded to tap all of my Forests, leaving only an Island untapped.

I did this because in an earlier game he had cast Earthquake. If he cast Earthquake on me this game, I would have been screwed as I was holding two lands in my hand.

Turns out he actually did have Earthquake in his hand the whole time but was afraid that I had another Unsummon in my hand so he didn't cast it. That won me the game :smile:

[cdr]

I and my opponent shuffle up before the match. He throws the die but only glances at it before continuing to shuffle. I throw the die for a lower number but say with full confidence "I'll go first.".
He looks a little confused but then says "Ok."

I was afraid of stuff like this in a thread like this.

Let me reiterate what Nightmare said and be clear that you were in fact lying about the outcome of the die roll, and you should have been disqualified for Cheating - Fraud.

You didn't specifically say that you won the roll, but you blatantly implied that you had - there's no difference.

If you want to attempt "Jedi Mind Tricks", you better know the rules. Read and understand the Communication section of the MTR.


4.1 Player Communication
Communication between players is essential to the successful play of any game that involves virtual objects or hidden information. While bluffing may be an aspect of games, there need to be clear lines as to what is, and is not, acceptable for players to say or otherwise represent. Officials and highly competitive players should understand the line between bluffing and fraud. This will confirm expectations of both sporting and competitive players during a game.

...

The following rules govern player communication:
• Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly.
• Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.
• At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.

The Riki Rules – Profane Bluffs (http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/the-riki-rules-%E2%80%93-profane-bluffs/)

[heroicraptor]

I was afraid of stuff like this in a thread like this.

Let me reiterate what Nightmare said and be clear that you were in fact lying about the outcome of the die roll, and you should have been disqualified for Cheating - Fraud.

You didn't specifically say that you won the roll, but you blatantly implied that you had - there's no difference.

What if you say "I want to go first." If they say "ok", then isn't that the same as them saying "I'll go second/draw first"?

[cdr]

If you're saying it with the intent to misrepresent the result of the die roll, you're Cheating, period.

[Nightmare]

There's a HUGE difference between saying something like:

"You'll draw first, right?"

and

"I'll play first."

If you can't see the difference, you should stop trying to "outwit" your opponent.

And by the way, if they say yes to the first, they still have the opportunity to recognize that you've said something they didn't expect to hear, and say they're playing first.

[Nihil Credo]

If you're saying it with the intent to misrepresent the result of the die roll, you're Cheating, period.
Isn't that a wide interpretation of "misrepresenting"? statements such as "I want to go first" or "I'd like to go first" are both true and misleading, which is common in many accepted bluffs.

(Just to be clear: I think it's obvious that simply "I go first" is lying and cheating.)

For example, let's take Chapin's famous bluff of saying "I'll cast Profane Command and give fear to all my legal targets" right before swinging with an army that included a Chamelon Colossus (pro-black). This, too, is an instance of only stating true facts with the clear intent of misrepresenting the game state, making the opponent think that all your guys have fear even though both the public information and your words reveal that Colossus can still be chumped; just like someone saying "I'd like to go first" is trying to make his opponent think that he lost the die roll even though the number is right in his face.

So,

1) If I remember correctly, when Chapin told the story of his bluff there was debate about whether it was sportsmanlike but no serious question of its legality. Is this no longer true (or am I remembering wrong)?

2) If the Chapin bluff is legal, how would you characterise the difference between that bluff and "I'd like to go first"?

[Michael Keller]

Just read konsultant's sig. That's the only Jedi trick I remember using.

[cdr]

The Chapin situation is definitely different.

Chapin is saying something both very precisely true and general which his opponent does not read enough into. He is walking the finest possible line, but on the side of within the rules.

In Manhattan's case, he knows his opponent is not paying attention to the die roll, so he says something that he knows his opponent will take to indicate that Manhattan won the roll. There is no generality here - Manhattan is saying something false. He can't say what both players know he's saying without having won the roll, and he did not.

Something like "I'd like to go first." comes closer to the line, but probably still on the wrong side.

Edit: "I'd like to go first." probably a closer call than I thought at first. You're still likely going to get kicked out of an event one way or another if you get caught at it.

[Manhattan]

So to summarize asking your opponent wether you may go first is ok, but stating that you go first is not. Is that fairly accurate? Well in that case I have nothing left but to apologize to my opponent.

[Solpugid]

My friend and I were playing a casual game about 4 or 5 years ago (it was right as Saviors of Kamigawa came out). I was playing a simple UG madness deck, my friend was playing a GW token-based deck.

Mid-way through the game, my back was against the wall. I had a few rootwallas and aquamoebas out, but was staring down a rather substantial army of chump-blockers. Then, like clockwork, I drew a wonder off the top. I glanced down at my lands and noticed that my only sources of blue were yavimaya coasts and Oboro, palace in the clouds. I had an island in my hand, but was holding it to bluff a rushing river or circular logic.

My only legitimate way to win was to start going on the offensive, but my friend was playing 4x living wish with a silklash spider in the board. He had a few cards in hand, so I made the only play I thought could work. I pitched wonder to aquamoeba and swung confidently with my team. To my delight, my friend had become so used to "wonder in grave=flying" that he let them all through, knocking him down to about 5 or 6 life after pumps.

When I passed the turn, he smiled, played living wish, and got his spider. He played the thing and pseudo-hurricaned for a bunch, tapping out. I explained to him that my creatures didn't have flying and received a rather unamused look. I attacked the next turn for the win (this time with an island in play).

[MMogg]

So to summarize asking your opponent wether you may go first is ok, but stating that you go first is not. Is that fairly accurate? Well in that case I have nothing left but to apologize to my opponent.

I think the line is between a question and a statement because under the rules, whoever wins the die roll (in this case your opponent) was the one who makes the decision; yet, you made a statement that you'll go first, implying it was your decision, implying you won the roll. "I want", on the other hand, does not exactly mean it is your decision, but the connotation is still quite strong. I mean, after all, when we go to a restaurant we say "I want a pizza" and we expect it. It's not like saying I want a night in bed with twin porn stars; it's in the realm of possibility, hence a very fine line.

[goobafish]

I think I see movement to my right (where some friends were observing) and catch Dave Caplan ushering Lam Phan from the area.

You are lucky I did. He is notorious for blurting out things at the wrong time :P.

[Parcher]

You are lucky I did. He is notorious for blurting out things at the wrong time :P.

That was why you asked me to keep him away from the Top 8 at Chicago? I just thought you hated asians.

[elof]

A famous jedi mind trick is to Circular Logic a spell without or with few cards in the graveyard. Most people see Logic as a hardcounter.

[Waikiki]

new players actually read that cards and check your grave :<

[georgjorge]

That's an interesting point...some mind tricks actually work better against experienced players than against new ones, as the new ones haven't yet developed "instinctive" reactions to certain cards, and NEED to think the situations through instead.

[Tangle.Wire]

Last Sunday i played on a Legacy Tournament UGR Dreadstill facing an Eva Green, we where post board and he played a second turn dark confidant i had no solutions only a single firespout on hand so on his third turn he revealed another confidant with his confidant which was already played. I asked him "on eva green its possible to drop 2 confis to race controlplayers right?" (forcing him to play it) as he did i hardly got problems grinning like the players around us when i just played the firespout on my turn removing both confidants :D


On the same tournament i lost to an exalted angel as i thought morph couldn't be countered so you can choose what story blames a player more :tongue:


ps: We already started a discussion about mind tricks especially on daze in the Dreadstill thread as i dont play daze anymore just relaying on the bluff that i could have one as everyone would expect daze on a countertop/dreadstill deck.

[Skeggi]

On the same tournament i lost to an exalted angel as i thought morph couldn't be countered so you can choose what story blames a player more :tongue:

502.26a Morph is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it’s on, and the morph effect works any time the card is face down. “Morph [cost]” means “You may play this card as a 2/2 face-down creature, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost by paying rather than its mana cost.” Any time you could play an instant, you may show all players the morph cost for any face-down permanent you control, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. This action does not use the stack. (See rule 504, “Face-Down Spells and Permanents.”)
If you're referring to a situation where you want to stifle the turning face-up of the card, then indeed, that's not counterable. If you're referring to an Exalted Angel being cast face down, yes that's counterable.

[Tangle.Wire]

If you're referring to a situation where you want to stifle the turning face-up of the card, then indeed, that's not counterable. If you're referring to an Exalted Angel being cast face down, yes that's counterable.

Yeah i already know this yet :D but i was 100% sure so don't even called for a judge just hold my force on the hand getting told from everyone why i didn't counter the angel after this game ^^

[Digital Devil]

This happened before M10. I was playing Angel Stompy, and had an Exalted Angel on the battlefield, versus a BGW Aggro Rock deck. My opponent drew a Doran, the Siege Tower, with Dark Confidant, going down to 5. I was @1. My opponent thinks a little about his move, then I say: "What are you thinking about? Just drop that beatstick and kill me the next turn. If you attack, I can block Doran, but before I gain life from Angel, I lose the game 'cause Confy kills me...". He drops Doran, then passes the turn. I swing for 5 and win.

[Manhattan]

This happened before M10. I was playing Angel Stompy, and had an Exalted Angel on the battlefield, versus a BGW Aggro Rock deck. My opponent drew a Doran, the Siege Tower, with Dark Confidant, going down to 5. I was @1. My opponent thinks a little about his move, then I say: "What are you thinking about? Just drop that beatstick and kill me the next turn. If you attack, I can block Doran, but before I gain life from Angel, I lose the game 'cause Confy kills me...". He drops Doran, then passes the turn. I swing for 5 and win.

How can an Exalted Angel swing for 5?

[Shawn]

He drops Doran, then passes the turn.

[Digital Devil]

He drops Doran, then passes the turn =)

[beastman]

Because it's just that damn good.

[loveisgreen]

1. Every time someone attacks with a Figure of Destiny, Chameleon Colossus, or Putrid Leech, I pick up my pen and ask "just x"? They usually take the bait and pump before I put the pen down and Path to Exile their creature.

2. Tap Boseiju, who Shelters All and a Forest, and cast Crop Rotation. Opponent has no response, so search for Tabernacle and tap Savannah to cast Life from the Loam. Opponent FoWs LftL. I get three lands out of my graveyard, and he calls the judge, at which point I explain that I spent Boseiju mana on LftL. Lawlz.

3. I was playing against Mono- White Kithkin with my 5cc deck, and my opponent asks if Cruel Ultimatum is loss of life. My dumb ass shuffles to the Cruel in my hand and says yes. :rolleyes:

[Mantis]

That Boseiju trick is really clever! Nice work.

[luma]

2. Tap Boseiju, who Shelters All and a Forest, and cast Crop Rotation. Opponent has no response, so search for Tabernacle and tap Savannah to cast Life from the Loam. Opponent FoWs LftL. I get three lands out of my graveyard, and he calls the judge, at which point I explain that I spent Boseiju mana on LftL. Lawlz.

Really nice trick, I assume your opponent didn't hear you announce the colorless mana left in your pool when you cast Crop Rotation, as required by the rules?

[cdr]

Really nice trick, I assume your opponent didn't hear you announce the colorless mana left in your pool when you cast Crop Rotation, as required by the rules?

And what rule would that be?

[citanul]

I did one yesterday, one where I'm not that proud off.

I'm playing AnT and am playing against Landstill with Counterbalance. I play Thoughtseize and steal his only counter, leaving him with Plow, Repeal, blue card, 3 land. He has 2 untapped and a factory so I make sure I have the correct storm after playing Ad Nauseam. I am holding Duress, LED, LED, Infernal and plenty of mana + storm by now. I just cast LED LED, Infernal, sac both LED's. he casts Repeal on my Chrome Mox in response.

I think I'm screwed by this point, how could i have missed that! he suddenly sais 'FoW' as a joke that he drew that with Repeal. I notice that he doesn't get that I have to get a Chrome Mox and act stunned that he sais FoW, like i just lost by that. He sais, no, shows hand. I calmly say: Tendrils oke? and he scoops.

We discuss this later with a judge and it wasn't cheating because I never said that I was going to get a Tendrils with Infernal or that I planned to.

[akiratheoni]

And what rule would that be?
Pre-M10 rules, that would be legal. Post-M10 rules, it would not be.

106.4a If a player passes priority (see rule 115) while there is mana in his or her mana pool, that player announces what mana is there. If any mana remains in a player’s mana pool after he or she spends mana to pay a cost, that player announces what mana is still there.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Pre-M10 rules, that would be legal. Post-M10 rules, it would not be.

thats gotta be just about the dumbest rules ever. if you aren't paying attention to what your opponent is doing then tough shit.
Also, this makes playing solidarity take even longer

"Impulse, 14 U in pool"
"ok"
Meditate, 11 U in pool"
"ok"
Turnabout, 7 U in pool"

and so on and so forth.

[citanul]

What if you use dice? Your opponent can clearly see what mana is floating without having to say it. Should that suffice?

[emidln]

thats gotta be just about the dumbest rules ever. if you aren't paying attention to what your opponent is doing then tough shit.
Also, this makes playing solidarity take even longer

"Impulse, 14 U in pool"
"ok"
Meditate, 11 U in pool"
"ok"
Turnabout, 7 U in pool"

and so on and so forth.

I did this 3 years ago with Iggy Pop and Solidarity. I do it today with NLS. It doesn't take very long (and neither does keeping track of mana on a pad of paper). If the combo turn with storm combo is taking a long time, you're not practiced enough with your deck.

[Anusien]

And what rule would that be?
They added it in the M10 update (it was even in MaGo's bulletin).

[akiratheoni]

What if you use dice? Your opponent can clearly see what mana is floating without having to say it. Should that suffice?
I'm not a judge or anything, but I'm pretty sure that's legal, as long as you can distinguish what colors of mana are in your mana pool. I think the rule was added just so there aren't any sneaky tricks like with the Boseji.

[beastman]

Pre-M10 rules, that would be legal. Post-M10 rules, it would not be.

Oh snap! CDR just got rules lawyered!

[on1y0ne]

Oh snap! CDR just got rules lawyered!
Don't get used to it, and don't assume that your post will stay up here for long. Just saying.

In Chuck's defense, there were many additions/changes to the rules that even the most seasoned judges have not seen or realized were there. Especially since there was more than one change to the rules this year. It is like trying to relearn how to do your job a completely different way.

[beastman]

Don't get used to it, and don't assume that your post will stay up here for long. Just saying.

In Chuck's defense, there were many additions/changes to the rules that even the most seasoned judges have not seen or realized were there. Especially since there was more than one change to the rules this year. It is like trying to relearn how to do your job a completely different way.

Cdr knows I love him. He'll live.

[akiratheoni]

Don't get used to it, and don't assume that your post will stay up here for long. Just saying.

In Chuck's defense, there were many additions/changes to the rules that even the most seasoned judges have not seen or realized were there. Especially since there was more than one change to the rules this year. It is like trying to relearn how to do your job a completely different way.
I agree, this rule in question was one of the more obscure rules and not a lot of people know about it (mostly because it's irrelevant in most cases). I don't hold it against him for not knowing.

[loveisgreen]

This was before 2010 rules, but I still didn't know about the change, thanks for the heads up!

[Kuma]

I'm playing against BGW Goodstuff in round one of The Meandeck Open #4. It's late in the game and our boards are clear except for a Sensei's Divining Top on his side and CounterTop on mine. He draws a card and asks to see my graveyard. I say, "Oh no, you're not going to Haunting Echoes me, are you?" to which he replies, "No." I hand him my graveyard. He looks at it for a few seconds, gives it back, and thinks for a bit. At this point, it's obvious he is holding an Extirpate, which worries me since I left a two-coster on top.

Thinking quickly, I ask him if we're still in his draw phase to which he replies, "No, we're in my main phase."

I say, "Before we go to your main phase, top?"

He says, "Sure."

I put a one-coster on top and say, "Ok, we can go to your main phase."

He plays Extirpate targeting Rhox War Monk and I enthusiastically flip over a Sensei's Divining Top. He tries to tell me I can't do that because of Split Second, but I explain to him that Counterbalance is a triggered ability.

Flustered, either from this revelation or from being kept out of the game the past couple of turns by CounterTop, he concedes the game.

[yankeedave]

I like it, but I reckon it might be (again) walking the fine line of legality, as he had obviously been in his mainphase for a while :)

Dave

[dahcmai]

Got this one today.

Opponent: Searches for Tutor target.

Me: what did you get?

Opponent: Something

Me: cmon, I'm serious what did you get?

Opponent: a Shreikmaw.

Me: Yes, hatred flows through you.

[tyleredw]

Got this one today.

Opponent: Searches for Tutor target.

Me: what did you get?

Opponent: Something

Me: cmon, I'm serious what did you get?

Opponent: a Shreikmaw.

Me: Yes, hatred flows through you.

I'm not quite sure i get the whole picture. :confused:

What tutor did he use? Did he at first not want to tell you what it was, when he was supposed to have? Were you not supposed to be able to know he got a shreikmaw, and you just pressured him into telling you what it was?

[Misplayer]

So I was Jedi Mind tricked last night. I'm playing UWb Landstill against UGbr CounterTop. I'm at 4 life, he's at 12. He has Counterbalance (no Top) Confidant + Shackles on a Solider token. I have double Factory. At his end step I cycle Decree to make 4 men. I swing in for 6 (taking him to 6, duh), leaving a Factory up and pass the turn. He reveals a land to Confidant and draws. He then Brainstorms. He plays a second Vedalken Shackles. I instinctively Force (I'm now at 3 life), and he flips a Force over on top of his library. He then declares attackers, steals my factory and wins. I guess those weren't the droids I was looking for.

[Nihil Credo]

That's not a mind trick. You would have lost anyway if the Shackles had resolved. You probably made a mistake in not Forcing the Brainstorm (unless he had a large hand), and possibly in not leaving an extra blocker, but again, that's not a mind trick.

[quicksilver]

That's not a mind trick. You would have lost anyway if the Shackles had resolved. You probably made a mistake in not Forcing the Brainstorm (unless he had a large hand), and possibly in not leaving an extra blocker, but again, that's not a mind trick.

If he did not force he would have stayed at 4 life, his opponent only had out 3 power so he would not have died that turn. He then could have swung back + 5 confidant damage to kill his opponent.

[Nihil Credo]

Blergh, misread the life total, you're right. Though, his opponent could have left Confidant untapped, sacrificed it in combat next turn (Misplayer would probably have accepted as he had no reason to suspect a Lava Axe on top) and then hopefully gained control of the red zone with 2x Shackles, which at 6 life is just barely possible.

[The_Red_Panda]

I'm playing UGR Dreadstill with Fire//Ice in the maindeck. My opponent is playing Dragonstompy, and we're now in game two. Game one he mulled very low and then lost to a second-turn Dreadnought. I kept a hand with Fire//Ice, a Firespout, a Daze, and a bunch of lands figuring that the removal would be good enough to hold him off for a while. His first turn play was Chalice@1, which was fairly rough. My first three turns are land, go hitting an Island, Trop, and Volc. His third turn he thinks about making a City of Traitors, but then decides that's incorrect and drops a mountain. He then passes the turn. I hit my fourth land, and pass back again.

He hits his land drop this time, the City, and goes for Chalice@2. This begins to look ugly. He's got mana open for my Daze, and I'm pretty locked out after he hits this chalice. So I sit there and grumble for a while, about how I no longer have any real threats. After sitting there for a while I say, "Yea, it resolves", and then quickly correct myself "Wait no, Ice your ugh, untapped mountain" He taps the mountain and I promptly Daze. He probably should have added mana to his manapool.