Best maindeck removal for a Monoblack deck

[DeMarki]

Greetings,

I was trying to improve my Monoblack control deck and until now, I was running 4x Diabolic Edict main, which is an awesome instant speed removal nonetheless, however it's use is very limited versus Aggro decks which tend to drop multiple creatures fast.

So I thought trying out 4x Contagion instead and it works great so far. It's instant speed, can be played for free giving you valuable tempo to cast more threats at the same time, it can either cripple a big creature(Tarmo goes from 5/6 to 1/4), disable/kill 2 smaller creatures at the same time and kill 2 utility creatures at once, such as Welder and Confidant.

The only drawback is that you need to remove a black card, or pay 3BB which is a lot for earlygame, so I try to discard the less important or dead cards, such us Dark Ritual if I have played my threats, or my second Nether Void. Even so, sometimes it hurts a lot to remove a card, which could be played instead. :'(

So which removal spell would you suggest me to run 4 copies maindeck?

*I avoid cards like Terror, Vendetta and Snuff Out since I play a lot versus black decks, not to mention the life loss is too much since I pack 8 Fetchlands + 4x Thoughseize*

I also tried Powder Keg, but seemed kinda slow for this deck, also Chainer's Edict is a sorcey, which is not good and can't be replayed after Void is down so I avoid it.

This is my deck at the moment:

Disruption:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine (Extra slot in Legacy)

Threats:
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker

Control:
4 contagion
3 Nether Void
1 Demonic Consultations (Extra slot in Legacy)
1 Demonic Tutor (Extra slot in Legacy)

Mana Sources:
1 Sol Ring (Extra slot in Legacy)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Swamp

[Piceli89]

http://www.mtgotraders.com/store/media/products/onslaught/Smother.jpg

[Brennender_Drache]

What about Ghastly Demise or Smother?

[DrJones]

If you want one-sided wraths, I suggest Forced March.

Edit: Also Death Pit Offering, for the other kind of one-sided wrath.

[sco0ter]

Wretched Banquet (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/56.html)
Doom Blade (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/93.html)
Devour in Shadow (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/46.html)

just some ideas.

[DeMarki]

Snuff Out as well as many other removal spells cannot target Black creatures, so they are unreliable for maindeck in my opinion.

Smother looks good, I will have to give it a try. Most competitive creatures cost 3 or less mana, except from stuff like Morphling, Darksteel Colossus and other fatties.

[Digital Devil]

If you pack both Snuff Out and Diabolic Edict you shouldn't have any problem with creatures.

[DeMarki]

If you pack both Snuff Out and Diabolic Edict you shouldn't have any problem with creatures.

Only 4 slots for removal I am afraid, and I can't include Snuff Out since the life loss is just too much(already play 8 Fetchlands and 4 Thoughtseize).

Smother or Contagion for Maindeck? I like the tempoboost Contagion provides and the chance of disabling 2 creatures with one card, but the -1 card loss could be a problem if you don't have dead cards in your hand.

[DrJones]

Put more dead cards in your deck.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Edit: Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13908) is a discussion about black removal, in which I made a small list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=351914&postcount=16) of most black removal in the format, and my order of preference.

[sco0ter]

already play 8 Fetchlands and 4 Thoughtseize.


Why 8 Fetchlands in a mono black deck at all? You don't need colorfixing nor do you need the shuffle effect. The only purpose is for Tombstalker, but is it really worth it?

[DeMarki]

Why 8 Fetchlands in a mono black deck at all? You don't need colorfixing nor do you need the shuffle effect. The only purpose is for Tombstalker, but is it really worth it?

Definitelly, Tombstalker has won most of my games so far and he can be easily played under Void since you can use his passive ability and remove 3 cards instead of paying the extra 3 colorless mana.

[DrJones]

That's totally wrong, dude. The payment hasn't anything to do with the cost of Tombstalker, Nether Void it's like a permanent Mana Leak.

[Dark Ritual]

Contagion is meh to me although it would be good if you had dead cards in hand. It's really conditional though being able to only kill X/2's. Sure it helps make a goyf a lot less scary but I'd rather just smother the goyf and have it be dead. Contagion is really only good against countertop but even then it's part of the force of will cycle from alliances so the countertop player could reveal a force of will to counter it

[MMogg]

That's totally wrong, dude. The payment hasn't anything to do with the cost of Tombstalker, Nether Void it's like a permanent Mana Leak.

So, the next question is, will he continue to play it wrong now that he knows the rules, and the follow up question to that is will he post in the Jedi Mind Tricks thread or be posted about in the Beating Your Head Against the Wall on MWS thread? :wink:

I too would like to submit a vote for Smother. Most of the creatures you'll be worried about can be smothered . . . in love.

http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af307/MMoggg/SmotheredinLove.jpg

[DragoFireheart]

So, the next question is, will he continue to play it wrong now that he knows the rules, and the follow up question to that is will he post in the Jedi Mind Tricks thread or be posted about in the Beating Your Head Against the Wall on MWS thread? :wink:

I too would like to submit a vote for Smother. Most of the creatures you'll be worried about can be smothered . . . in love.

http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af307/MMoggg/SmotheredinLove.jpg

What's funny is that smother suffers the same problem as Snuff Out: Can't hit Tombstalkers. :(

[MMogg]

What's funny is that smother suffers the same problem as Snuff Out: Can't hit Tombstalkers. :(

True, but he's also running 4 Thoughtsieze, which hopefully would help get rid of it prior to being cast There is no perfect black removal so unless he were to take out a couple of swamps for a couple of Badlands and run Swords to Plowshares, I think Smother is the best bet.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Unmake would fit the card slot here but honestly it's pretty terrible and you might as well use smothers or a combination of those with diabolic edicts.

[lorddotm]

What's funny is that smother suffers the same problem as Snuff Out: Can't hit Tombstalkers. :(

Tombstalker>The format.

[chokin]

I think that black should be fine with:

4 Damnation
4 Smother
4 Snuff Out/Edict

Snuff and Smother both handle early threats and then Damnation picks up the slack or Tombstalkers/shroud/Progenitus. Hymn and Thoughtseize act as preemptive removal or counter.

I'd stay away from Nether Void though. That card can be janky. It makes your cheap spells unplayable too.

[DeMarki]

So, the next question is, will he continue to play it wrong now that he knows the rules, and the follow up question to that is will he post in the Jedi Mind Tricks thread or be posted about in the Beating Your Head Against the Wall on MWS thread? :wink:

Hehe, even though you broke my heart I won't make that mistake again. A Tombstalker played for 3BB under Void is still sexy don't get me wrong.

I'm about to order 4 Smother and test them, 90% of all creatures I face cost 3 or less mana so it should be more reliable then Diabolic Edict.

One other question I had is the following, do you believe that Thoughtseize would be a better option than Duress for this deck? I know that's the answer is kinda obvious, but I had a couple games where I could not cast it, since I was too low on life, thus resulting in a loss. :) How about running Duress instead of Hymn to Tourach? Some people believe targeted discard is more reliable than random discard.

[Tangle.Wire]

Smother is really the best black spot removal, as sweepers i love playing infests if i have enough space i like pairing it to 1-2 contagion.

[MMogg]

Hehe, even though you broke my heart I won't make that mistake again. A Tombstalker played for 3BB under Void is still sexy don't get me wrong.

I'm about to order 4 Smother and test them, 90% of all creatures I face cost 3 or less mana so it should be more reliable then Diabolic Edict.

One other question I had is the following, do you believe that Thoughtseize would be a better option than Duress for this deck? I know that's the answer is kinda obvious, but I had a couple games where I could not cast it, since I was too low on life, thus resulting in a loss. :) How about running Duress instead of Hymn to Tourach? Some people believe targeted discard is more reliable than random discard.

Last question first: :eek: Duress instead of Hymn :eek: Noooooooooooo. Really, no. Thoughtseize is already there for targeted hand disruption, I don't think you also need Duress. Hymn is not only glorious card advantage, it also has a mental impact on the opponent. How many times have I Duressed an opponent who just grinned and showed me a hand of land and creatures?! :mad:

Thoughtseize versus Duress is a little more difficult and I think you should base it on your metagame. You can playtest Duress and see if it is better or worse in your meta. Alternatively you could run 2 of each, but I think that's the weakest option.

I'm aware of how trite "playtest" and "base it on your meta" sounds, because it could be applied anywhere to anything, but in this case, the differences between the two options are very dependent on the meta. Creature heavy and Duress is a dead card --> Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize just acting as a shock Duress because you never grab a non-Duressable target --> Duress.

[Nay123]

hmm... I prefer thoughtseize over duress, simply give more choices to discard. Opponent will have a harder time to hard those cards away if they cast brainstorm.

I agree with MMogg. Hymn not only has a demoralizing effect on the player, and it can act as a random land destruction (1 thing thoughtseize and duress cannot do)

Have you consider innocent blood? I like it a lot. it is a black swords to plowshare.

What you guys think of Rend Flesh and Smallpox?

[MMogg]

Have you consider innocent blood? I like it a lot. it is a black swords to plowshare.

What you guys think of Rend Flesh and Smallpox?

Sorry, friend, I have to totally disagree with you on that one: Swords is targeted spot removal that removes the chosen target from the game at instant speed, whereas Innocent Blood is non-targeted sorcery speed that puts more shiznit in the graveyard. The non-targeted thing really sucks since all creatures are certainly not created equal. Innocent Blood against a Zoo deck with a Kird Ape and Goyf on the battlefield and I wonder which one they will choose? :wink: In a creature heavy environment, Innocent Blood becomes much weaker as it removes your choice and therefore ability to control the swing of the game.

Rend Flesh looks interesting, but a little expensive at 3 mana. Still, it takes care of nearly every creature in competitive Legacy. Smallpox, on the other hand, as a creature removal spell has the same problems as Innocent Blood.

[DeMarki]

Why isn't there an equivalent to Swords to Plowshares for Black?

All black removal spells have serious drawbacks, while Swords is just too perfect!

[DrJones]

Swords to Plowshares is not perfect.

[beastman]

Personally, I think that monoblack is best suited with smother, and maybe one other spot removal spell (doom blade seems good), and pair those with edicts, for cards like tombstalker, who are almost always on the field by themselves. Take that removal package and add damnation(infest sucks so bad in this format), and you should have a good enough removal package for almost any deck.

[DeMarki]

Personally, I think that monoblack is best suited with smother, and maybe one other spot removal spell (doom blade seems good), and pair those with edicts, for cards like tombstalker, who are almost always on the field by themselves. Take that removal package and add damnation(infest sucks so bad in this format), and you should have a good enough removal package for almost any deck.

If you are playing a slow control version perhaps, if you want to play aggressive you can't afford to waste 8-10 slots on removal spells, that's why you go for the 4 most reliable removal slots, and add some in your sideboard for the rematch.

[beastman]

If your going for an aggressive deck, the best card is without a doubt smother. I would pack 4 edicts in the board though if your metagame has lots of tombstalker in it.

[DeMarki]

If your going for an aggressive deck, the best card is without a doubt smother. I would pack 4 edicts in the board though if your metagame has lots of tombstalker in it.

Well the fact is that Smother get's rid of 90% of the creature threats these days, however some people run Snuff Out or Contagion instead for the tempo boost.

Being able to kill a creature AND drop a threat on the same round is priceless.

[beastman]

The thing is , Dark confidant is becoming more and more popular these days, and he is one of the worst cards for you to have to face, seeing as one of your main strategies is hand disruption.

[MMogg]

Swords to Plowshares is not perfect.

Neither is Scarlett Johansson, but it's about as good as it gets without blowing yourself up in the name of Allah.

Swords has been consistently been labelled the best removal spell in Magic ever since I started playing. Black definitely has nothing comparable, and – for the sake of balance – shouldn't.

[Nay123]

Sorry, friend, I have to totally disagree with you on that one: Swords is targeted spot removal that removes the chosen target from the game at instant speed, whereas Innocent Blood is non-targeted sorcery speed that puts more shiznit in the graveyard. The non-targeted thing really sucks since all creatures are certainly not created equal. Innocent Blood against a Zoo deck with a Kird Ape and Goyf on the battlefield and I wonder which one they will choose? :wink: In a creature heavy environment, Innocent Blood becomes much weaker as it removes your choice and therefore ability to control the swing of the game.

Rend Flesh looks interesting, but a little expensive at 3 mana. Still, it takes care of nearly every creature in competitive Legacy. Smallpox, on the other hand, as a creature removal spell has the same problems as Innocent Blood.

oh! never thought of that avenue. thanks!
i think rend flesh need play test...

[DeMarki]

Except for Tombstalkers, what other creatures do you guys play often against that cannot be killed by Smother?

I'm just trying to find out which would be the most reliable removal spell, if Smother can deal with 9 out of 10 creatures I face then it's a keeper.

[eq.firemind]

Except for Tombstalkers, what other creatures do you guys play often against that cannot be killed by Smother?
Progenitus.

[Skeggi]

Sower of Temptation.

[MMogg]

Except for Tombstalkers, what other creatures do you guys play often against that cannot be killed by Smother?

I'm just trying to find out which would be the most reliable removal spell, if Smother can deal with 9 out of 10 creatures I face then it's a keeper.

Nimble Mongoose is probably the creature you'll see most that cannot be Smothered. Also, some decks like Dragon Stompy pack some beef, and some Stax decks run Magus of the Tabernacle. Other than that, hmm, Sower of Temptation perhaps.

Edit: I'm too slow, Skeggi beat me to the last one.

[Valdez]

Except for Tombstalkers, what other creatures do you guys play often against that cannot be killed by Smother?
Wort, Ringleader, Sgc, Earwing Squad, Hierarch, Wickerbough Elder.

[DeMarki]

Wort, Ringleader, Sgc, Earwing Squad, Hierarch, Wickerbough Elder.

I haven't seen any of those in my meta ever, I only see Showers, some Tombs plus the occasional reanimator fatty. So I assume Smother would be a good choice, meta wise?

[Jon Stewart]

I think Wizards finally printed the definitive answer to this question in Consuming Vapors

I love that Consuming Vapors 2 for 1s your opponent, gains you life, and gets around counters, and deals with Progenitus and Shroud creatures that Reanimator plays.


I also think Inquisition is a fantastic replacement for Thoughtseize and Duress.

Duress sucked especially in top deck mode in that it could whiff if your opp is just left with lands and creatures after your Smallpoxes and such. Plus it didn't discard goyfs when thats what you most wanted to discard.

Thoughtseize sucked in that it shocked you and your life.

But Inquisition is solid.

[Jon Stewart]

I think Wizards finally printed the definitive answer to this question in Consuming Vapors

I love that Consuming Vapors 2 for 1s your opponent, gains you life, and gets around counters, and deals with Progenitus and Shroud creatures that Reanimator plays.


I also think Inquisition is a fantastic replacement for Thoughtseize and Duress.

Duress sucked especially in top deck mode in that it could whiff if your opp is just left with lands and creatures after your Smallpoxes and such. Plus it didn't discard goyfs when thats what you most wanted to discard.

Thoughtseize sucked in that it shocked you and your life.

But Inquisition is solid.

[jrsthethird]

Vapors is tough at 4 mana. If it manages to hit a super-fatty, then great, but Rebound is hardly relevant since they will smash you before you can cast it again.