Mono Red - Golem Stax - Revisiting 5/3

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I would like to propose the Idea of Mono Red Stax, or a possible Red Stax build with a Splash. I recently came across 4 Rolling Earthquaes, and I'm going to try to abuse them as much as possible. I have put a lot of thought into this deck so far, and I would like some opinions on how to make it more viable in legacy.

4 Tangle Wire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestacks
3 Trinisphere
2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Rolling Earthquake
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thran Dynamo
1 Burning of Xinye
1 Wildfire
1 Mishra's Helix

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Gods Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Barbarian Ring
5 Mountain

4 Blood Moon
3 Aura Barbs
2 Shattering Spree
3 Anarchy
3 Powder Keg

The Breakdown

Tangle Wire
This card can slow the opponent down at tthe beginning to create one of the many locks staxs can abuse.

Chalice
This card is ran in (almost) every stompy deck, as well as stax deck. This card is abusive because all of the cards in the deck cost either 0, 3, 4, 5, or 6, giving you the advantage to stop many decks (Threshold, Merfolk, Dreadstill, Belcher, TES).

Smokestacks
Because with so many permanents, not to mention the Crucible to recur lands in the deck, this card gets rid of everything, including lands, creatures, artifacts, and enchantments.

Trinisphere
Although the card is amazing, it is just too much to run 4 of. After discussing the number with several other stax players, this number is best kept at 3, to reduce the chances of duplicants in the late game

Crucible of Worlds
This card creates an outlet of answers for the late game, as well as the early game. It enables you to always have mana late game, and to reuse City of Traitors, as well as bring back Factories, draw cards with Canopy, Make many gargoyles, recur Barbarian Ring for extra damage, or give you the 6th mana to Wildfire.

Rolling Earthquake
This card hits all creatures (except the bad ones from P3K). This can seal the deal against Goblins, Merfolk, Elves, White Weenie, Mongoose, Goyf, War Monk, Trygon Predator, even give you the extra stretch to win the game.

Wildfire/Burning
This card serves a similar purpose that Earthquake does, except this is a great card to destroy basic lands late game.

Thran Dynamo
This card serves as 2 Purposes, either to A, Give you that Extra 3 Mana Each Turn, or B, to animate with Karn, and swing for 4 damage.

Mishra's Helix
This card acts as an Inifinite Rishadan Port, and as a 1 of, it give you the advantage late game, even early game after leading the opponent out with a tangle wire or 2. The abitily to tap 1-X Mana a turn creates a lock in itself. This card is not 100% necessary, so I am trying one in the mainboard.

Sideboard

Blood Moon
Nothing Kills Threshold or 43 Lands faster than Saying turn 1 Blood Moon. This card shuts down a lot of decs, while barely altering the state of your game. This forces most opponents to just enter scoop phase.

Aura Barbs
There are plenty of Other Cards that could take the place of this, but My Metagame consists of about 2-4 Enchantress Decks, so once they go away, these will go away.

Shattering Spree
I'm back and forth on these cards. I believe I could find something better than this, because I don't see any artifacts that will give me problems. But there's always the chance they have Explosives for, 3, even 4, so I think Needle might be more beneficial (Although Chalice at 1 Stops your own needles).

Anarchy
Silver Knights just kill red decs, and the Rolling Earthquakes and Wildfires do not stop these guys, as well as the White Stax with the Ghostly Prisons, or the Enchantress Matchup, with Moats. These cards are completely Necessary for my meta game, and it Kills Progenitus as well.

Powder Keg
This Card can kill the Mongooses early, as well as ETW Tokens, or Zombie Tokens (Dredge).

This Deck needs some Fine Tuning. I see the option to splash Green for Chokes and Grips, or White even for Oblivion Rings, or Ravages, or even Black, for Nether Voids or Perish. If anyones been testing a similar deck, I can use some advice! I will post results in the future.

[ClearSkies]

Ancient Tombs and Rolling Earthquakes combined with no real aggro slowdown. You will sure lose a lot of life before getting your lock setup.

[chokin]

Ensnaring Bridge with Bottled Cloister. Do it now. You'll thank me later.

[sdematt]

You and I should talk. NOW. I've been working on something like this for months, and I'd love to brainstorm with you. Give me a PM if you're interested.

[baghdadbob]

I like the idea alot man. Have you tested Goblin Welder in your build? He seems good.

[MULocke]

I like the idea alot man. Have you tested Goblin Welder in your build? He seems good.

Chalice @ 1 sez no.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

@Clearskies

You do have a point, and hopefully I can find a way to add some type of spot removal for big creatures like crusher, knight, teravore, even a simple Tarmogoyf.

@chokin

Hopefully that was a joke? I can't begin to type all the things wrong with that combo.....

Goblin Welder is a great card, just not in this deck. Chalice for one is a main thing to do each game, and the rolling earthquakes kill welder very fast.

Anybody have any ideas for creature removal, that isn't mass creature, like an O. Ring type deal?

[TOGITwill]

Aether Flash is great for Red control.

[sdematt]

An-Zarrin Ruins may be the secret Homelands tech you've been searching for!
Fissure is spot removal, but at 5, it's way too slow.
Also, Price of Glory is worth noting.

[Koby]

Meekstone can be useful against fat creature decks. It doesnt' agree well with Chalice, but... c'est la vie!

[emidln]

\
Goblin Welder is a great card, just not in this deck. Chalice for one is a main thing to do each game, and the rolling earthquakes kill welder very fast.

Anybody have any ideas for creature removal, that isn't mass creature, like an O. Ring type deal?

Goblin Welder is amazing in exactly this deck. He's not the best in your maindeck due to things like rquake, chalices, and the fact that your opponent has 4-12 ways to deal with him. He is absurd out of your sideboard against discard and control (and affinity too if you ever encounter that). Welder is one of the scariest things a lot of decks can see, particularly after they've taken out most of their spot removal against your slow and lumbering control deck.

Ensnaring Bridge/Razorcore/Tarmogoyf were the best solutions I found for red-based stax. Ensnaring Bridge keeps the bigger guys from knocking you down while Razorcore and Tarmogoyf will stare down or kill most anything else in combat. Razorcore is kinda cool in that he's busted postboard with Welder (and I would often bring in Welder to complement Razorcore) although Tarmogoyf is far easier to get active.

[sdematt]

I was using a Razorcore and Masticore split in my build, and it was working great with Razorcore. Masticore, I found, was only good because he regenerates, or when I had 10+ mana sitting there I could machine gun the board. But, when that didn't happen, he was useless.

[Zork]

Other fat removal that also supplements your other strategies is Aftershock, a card I play on and off in the board of Dragon Stompy.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

@chokin

Hopefully that was a joke? I can't begin to type all the things wrong with that combo.....

Um actually there is absolutely nothing wrong with that combo. They can ever attack because your hand is gone during their turn, and you draw extra cards to keep hand-size up and be able to roll in with fatties. Also, its card draw you can use in red. Which is good.

[Koby]

Would Starstorm achieve the same result as Rolling Earthquake without purposefully harming you? How often do you expect to use Rolling Earthquake as an X powered finisher? Is RR a limiting factor?

With the inclusion of Goblin Welder, you can play tricks such as Uba Mask, Jester's Cap, and Solemn Simulacrums (for accel/card drawing).

[Mystical_Jackass]

27 Lands? :eek:

Man, your hands gonna be like 5 lands... 2 spells Lol. You run crucible and artifact accel, I don't think that should be a prob, I'd just run a few fetchland to make sure you have land in your graveyard at all times and cut like 5 of those lands that's crazy lol.

Maybe run like 2x Duplicant for spot removal, since you're running artifact accel. Just a thought, I run a mono Red EDH so I have experience in that.. not much in legacy though >.>

It'd be sweet to see Guantlet of Might make an appearance... prolly better in a different deck though. It would be cool if you ran like 4 Recruiter, 1 Kiki Jikki, 1 Magus of the Moon, 1 Siege-Gang Commander; You could toolbox magus when needed.. but for finisher drop recruiter, search for kikki; next turn drop Kikki making copy of recruiter, search your deck for Siege-gang, play it. Then final turn you can make copy of siege, swing for like 20 damage with gauntlet out lol.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

@TOGITwill

AEther Flash is a good Card, but Im not really worried about creatures with the toughness of 2 or less, and to stop the big creatures, I'll have to have about 2-3 in play, which I don't see as beneficial as other cards could be. I do Appreciate the suggestion though :smile:

@sdematt

An-Zerrin Ruins - Honestly... This card could be good.... I thought the name sounded familiar. This would help agains decks like Goblins, Merfolk, tribal decks...... but I dont the deck will do bad at all against those decks.... I will keep this in mind (for some reason).

Fissue does cost too much mana... Good Point?

Price of Glory seems pretty good. I like this card a lot... bit could help against the Blue match up, even destroying ports, preventing Brainstorms.. I'm going to pick some of these up... I'll see what I can do with these..


Razormane Masticore I assume is "razorcore" he's not terrible, but I'm really trying to not have many creatures, because i'd rather Stall out game 1, Kill them with Karns minions, and stall game 2 into a draw (sounds cheap, but hell, it happens to me all the time). Razormane is a good creature, and I think it will give me the early creature removal I need to go the distance to win, if the lock doessnt work out. I will pick some up and fit them in here, because everyone seems to be suggesting him. Probably 2? I dont think any more is necessary...

@rukcus

Honestly, this is the one I like the best so far.... It may cost 1, but I do not want to mainboard these, because some matchups they are irrelevant. It may cost 1, but the fact is that if they have big creatures, the Deck is probably Dragon stompy, faerie stompy, Aggro Loam, those decks also run chalice, so It might not hurt as bad, because it would be a auto board out card for them (unless they are trying to calice for 0 or something). Im going to think on this one as well.

@emidln

Two buddies of mine actually said the same thing. Put these in the board, because a lot of people side out the creature removal, and this card can just go the distance with his ability. Will consider in the Sideboard.

@Zork
I've always liked aftershock. Its good, with the damage from Rolling Earthquae and Ancient tomb it might be much. Id Rather have 4 R. Earthquakes to stop the little goblins and merfolk, than aftershock to destoy a tarmogoyf. Aftershock can kill a driver for 3 damage... and earthquake kills multiple small ones. If all else fails I can Earthquake for 14 and tie the game out (if its not goin my way, I think that results in a draw?)

Ensnaring Bridge is amazing, and I love the card. I just see the potential problemn of being stuck at 3 mana for 2-4 turns, not being able to play any cards, and the creatures still getting through. I have these on reserve, and I will see how the deck plays out on Wednesday, to get some Pros and cons of the current list. I will post a full tournament report on Thursday, and hopefully have some input on whats coming out (Helix I can feel it already, Even the BurningFires possibly).

In a perfect game, Cloister and Bridge can be amazing. THe simple fact that they blow up the cloister, and your hand gets "exiled" is not my Idea of a good time. I'd rather take the chances of having Just bridge and blowing up the small creatures, and keeping low cards in my hand.

Please keep the suggestions coming. It does help and after Wednesday, we will start tunign the deck. I plan to play this deck at the Mean Deck Open on Sunday, and Hopefully, ripping Menendians face off and handing it to him (Grudge Match from the last mean deck open... 0-1-1 against him).

A friend remembers the deck running Covetus Dragon and Juggernaut. I don't believe Juggernaughts good in the current format with all the goyfs running around, and I dont know about Covetus. Any Opinions?

ADDED

Starstorm serves the same purpose as earthquake, except less life I would lose, which is good, and the cycling ability is also great... But I think the RR could be a potential issue. I have some, and If I have to sell the Rearthquakes for Perkasets or something, I might just replace these. Ill see how the mana plays out, which brings me to the next point

27 Lands seems like a lot..... But, after playing white stacks for several years, you cant afford to run 23 lands, even 24. aggro loam runs about 26, which is a good number, but 1 of the lands doesnt produce mana, so that takes the toll down to 26, and with the diamonds, Id rather have 3lands and 4 cards, or 4 cards and 3 lands, because this brings the consistancy of the turn 1 Trinisphere/Chalice up, and A lot of the lands serve more of a purpose than just Mana..... This number feels right.....

[Jeff Kruchkow]

In a perfect game, Cloister and Bridge can be amazing. THe simple fact that they blow up the cloister, and your hand gets "exiled" is not my Idea of a good time. I'd rather take the chances of having Just bridge and blowing up the small creatures, and keeping low cards in my hand.

If they choose to blow up cloister, yes you lose your hand. That stinks. However, if you have bridge out then you have at least 1 turn to draw out of it probably more if they only have goyfs. Further, you need some sort of draw engine against control. Relying on trini or CotV to shut of their deck is too risky in a big tourney

EDIT: I know hes bad but i remember vintage stax with him: Su-Chi or possibly arcbound ravager as creatures?

[Koby]

Fire Diamond maybe too slow, but with the huge abundance of 2 mana lands, getting 4 mana on turn 2, with one being red, is really useful. I remember the old Wildfire standard deck ran Fire Diamonds with Covetous Dragon.

Other alternatives would be Talisman of Impulse/Indulgence (the painland artifact). This gives you the option of using red when you need it, and colorless for no drawback. It also comes into play untapped. Perhaps this would take the place of Dynamo?

Dynamo: accels from 4 mana to 7 mana.
Talisman/Fire Diamond: accels from 2 mana to 4 mana.

Having also played legacy Stax decks, the biggest problem is finding early plays and consistently getting aboce the 6 mana threshold. The latter is not as big of a concern as the former - it's more important to hit the 3-4-5 mana curve than to be able to cast 2 pieces. Tangle Wire may makes this irrelevant as it acts as a stall.

[chokin]

If they choose to blow up cloister, yes you lose your hand. That stinks. However, if you have bridge out then you have at least 1 turn to draw out of it probably more if they only have goyfs. Further, you need some sort of draw engine against control. Relying on trini or CotV to shut of their deck is too risky in a big tourney

EDIT: I know hes bad but i remember vintage stax with him: Su-Chi or possibly arcbound ravager as creatures?

I agree with this. And if they blow up Cloister, you still have a small hand...and are able to play stuff. The quasi draw engine is worth the risk. It's better than Horizon Canopy for this deck I think just because Canopy may as well be half an Ancient Tomb or a Spellbomb's second ability at the cost of a land drop. The bottom line is they still cant attack you unless they also kill Bridge.

Ravager sucks if you want Chalice at 2. He kinda lacks synergy with the mass removal, as after you sweep, your artifacts become a whole hell of a lot better.

[HPB_Eggo]

Perhaps adding Chandra or Ajani Vengeant to the deck would help? They act as both win conditions and lock pieces. I think Ajani is probably the better choice, if you can ensure that you're able to cast him by the time you need him and can play him safely.

It does turn it into a pseudo-Geddon Stax build, though, so I can understand dismissing the idea.

[sdematt]

The problem is, white stax has nice stuff to go with it: Elspeth, Moat, Armageddon, Ghostly Prison, and Flagstones of Trokair. We don't have any of that. Usually, Ghostly Prison would take care of Aggro rushes, but alas, no dice. I think that Tangle Wire is not worth it due to the fact it slows you down far too much, and is a dead draw late game. I'd rather have Cloister-Bridge, or even either piece and try to go from there.

Also, I've found that in testing, Covetous Dragon is quite good. Yes, if you only have one artifact and they nuke it, it's a two for one. But it can also be a turn 1 6/5. But also, it flies. It blocks Trygon, it bets for 6; mostly, it's a three turn clock.

Another creature to consider, if we're looking for creatures to add, is Crater Hellion. Expensive? Yes. Sweeps flying and ground creatures alike for 4? Yes. Kills Gaddock Teeg? Yes. I'm running it in my build with delicious results (Yes, delicious). Also, it can kill your ensnaring bridge if you need to get in there, or you use Karn to turn Vial, EE, etc, into a creature, then you nuke it.

I'm running this list so far, but I'm using this thread to build a new one. I played this at the local legacy tourny, and got steamrolled, mostly to just really, really poor draws.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Sandstone Needle
9 Mountain

3 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Covetous Dragon
3 Crater Hellion
2 Masticore
2 Razormane Masticore

3 Wildfire
2 Rolling Earthquake
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Gilded Lotus
3 Blood Moon
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
3 Pithing Needle
2 Seething Song


I really think Seething song is a great choice, because you don't always have the extra bit of mana. You can easily get 3 mana on turns 1-2, and getting 5 on either of those turns is explosive. Even songing into a gilded lotus for turn 2 is great, or into Covetous, Karn, Dynamo -->Crucible, etc.

Also, have we thought about Ruby Medallion + Painter's Servant? Or even just Ruby Medallion? Makes our awesome cost a whole lot less.

Note: Gauntlet of Might is good in this kind of deck, but I found that when it came out on Turn 3-4, usually I could have been doing more proactive stuff than mana ramping.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

The problem is, white stax has nice stuff to go with it: Elspeth, Moat, Armageddon, Ghostly Prison, and Flagstones of Trokair. We don't have any of that. Usually, Ghostly Prison would take care of Aggro rushes, but alas, no dice. I think that Tangle Wire is not worth it due to the fact it slows you down far too much, and is a dead draw late game. I'd rather have Cloister-Bridge, or even either piece and try to go from there.

Also, I've found that in testing, Covetous Dragon is quite good. Yes, if you only have one artifact and they nuke it, it's a two for one. But it can also be a turn 1 6/5. But also, it flies. It blocks Trygon, it bets for 6; mostly, it's a three turn clock.

Another creature to consider, if we're looking for creatures to add, is Crater Hellion. Expensive? Yes. Sweeps flying and ground creatures alike for 4? Yes. Kills Gaddock Teeg? Yes. I'm running it in my build with delicious results (Yes, delicious). Also, it can kill your ensnaring bridge if you need to get in there, or you use Karn to turn Vial, EE, etc, into a creature, then you nuke it.

I'm running this list so far, but I'm using this thread to build a new one. I played this at the local legacy tourny, and got steamrolled, mostly to just really, really poor draws.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Sandstone Needle
9 Mountain

3 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Covetous Dragon
3 Crater Hellion
2 Masticore
2 Razormane Masticore

3 Wildfire
2 Rolling Earthquake
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Gilded Lotus
3 Blood Moon
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
3 Pithing Needle
2 Seething Song


I really think Seething song is a great choice, because you don't always have the extra bit of mana. You can easily get 3 mana on turns 1-2, and getting 5 on either of those turns is explosive. Even songing into a gilded lotus for turn 2 is great, or into Covetous, Karn, Dynamo -->Crucible, etc.

Also, have we thought about Ruby Medallion + Painter's Servant? Or even just Ruby Medallion? Makes our awesome cost a whole lot less.

Note: Gauntlet of Might is good in this kind of deck, but I found that when it came out on Turn 3-4, usually I could have been doing more proactive stuff than mana ramping.

Alright. This is what I like to see! Actual lists of people playing similar decks. I think this deck is a little more of a mix between Stax and Dragon Stompy. It seems like you would get manascrewed a lot running only 22 Lands, even with the gilded lotus/Thran Dynamo. Is the gilded lotus's mana useful except for the red? It seems to me there is a lot going on in this deck. I think Chalice should definately be in the deck.

White Stax Does have its advantages, but It is very easily stopp (in my opinion). Ive tested Dutch Stax, Angel Stax, Armageddon Stax, and even the list of the top 4 list at gencon, and they all have some type of inconsistancy. I'm going to pick up some cloisters and some bridges, and I'm going to move from there.

Ajani Vengeant definately would not be bad as a Creature shut-off-er or a creature killer, or a life gain mech, or even a one sided armageddon....

So Maybe Even


4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestacks
3 Trinisphere
2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Rolling Earthquake
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thran Dynamo
2 Bollted Cloister
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Gods Eye
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountain
3 Plateau

-1 Mishra's Helix
-4 Tangle Wire
-1 Burning of Xinye
-1 Wildfire

+2 Ajani
+2 Bottled Cloister
+3 Ensnaring Bridge

Price of Glory is definately going to be played in the Sideboard! That card seems broken. Does this list look any better? Just dropping Tangle Wire seems like a bad move, But I will try the original, substituting 3 Powder Keg for 3 Price of Glory.

[sdematt]

I found in testing that this either has to go a Stax route, or more of a mana-ramp "I want to lay down a Wildfire soon" deck, then play finishers. For me, I was playing my version for the sake of Wildfire, but, in yours, I see you don't use it. Is it because you don't need the boardsweep? I've found that the four lands and 4 damage makes a huge difference if it hits the board, and I'm using it like White-Stax uses Wrath of God: General cleanup.

Also, I'm not saying splash white, but if you're already putting white in, why not go for White Stax in general? I mean, I know we're trying to develop Red Stax in general, but, I don't want to touch white just due to the fact I could then just run White Stax.

On your comments, I like the lotus because after a Wildfire, I have the red mana I need for anything else in the deck. The problem with this: it costs 5, and is terribly slow. I'm not really sure of a solution for if I should take these out completely, but he also beats for 5...

I also found that I never ended up using my Smokestacks (they were great once in a while, but I found if I was in a bad board position, this was the last thing I wanted to see).

I think what needs to happen is we (or whoever is playing their version) needs to decide whether it's goin to be Stax, or Staxless Stax. For me, I prefer no Smokestack, because I really feel like I can never really get it going well. Most of the games I play against White Stax have never been ones where Smokestack made a difference as well.

I just noticed, the only red card I see in your deck is Rolling Earthquake. Doesn't seem too red to me!

I'll work a little more on the list and post it soon.

-Matt

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Not to make the deck seem like D. Stompy but I feel like you want Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon. Even the dis-synergy of Magus and Earthquake is compensated by the fact that against so much of the field, Moon effects just win.

[chokin]

Ensnaring Bridge with Bottled Cloister. Do it now. You'll thank me later.

@chokin

Hopefully that was a joke? I can't begin to type all the things wrong with that combo.....


I'm going to pick up some cloisters

/facepalm

On a more serious and progressive note, I'd consider removing Karn for the extra 3Sphere and Stax or +2 of anything really. Karn lacks synergy with Bridge unless you plan on keeping a full hand.

Also, the deck has lost Wildfire, so it's ok to drop Thran Dynamo. Your curve caps at 4 and you don't need it anymore unless you really really want to nuke big with Rolling Earthquake.

-2 Karn
-2 Thran Dynamo
-1 Gargoyle Castle

+1 Smokestack
+1 Trinisphere
+1 Bottled Cloister
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 X

You can always sacrifice extra permanents to Stax. I just like getting my draw engine/lock pieces early.

PS. White Stax is pretty consistent. It still runs Canopy as a draw engine (some run Bottled Cloister too). It has multiple Tabernacles, making Stax better since they lose noncreature permanents quicker. It has Elspeth (which is the best Planeswalker so far) to help keep permanents down for Stax. It has Armageddon to make Stax and Tabernacle effects better. Exalted Angel is not only a quick clock, but can smack by turn 4 and give you life back from Tombs. Because of all of the redundancy, it sounds like it has consistency.

[sdematt]

By removing the Wdilfires, and the Red cards mostly for that matter, it turns into MUD stax (which may not be a bad thing). Personally, I'm going to stick with Wildfire and see how it goes.

[iamajellydonut]

Just something that I thought might be fun.

Landx23
7 * Mountain
4 * Ancient Tomb
4 * City of Traitors
4 * Mishra's Factory
4 * Wasteland

Creaturesx6
2 * Magus of the Moon
4 * Simian Spirit Guide

Other Spellsx31
4 * Bottled Cloister
4 * Chalice of the Void
4 * Crucible of Worlds
4 * Ensnaring Bridge
3 * Mox Diamond
4 * Smokestack
4 * Tangle Wire
4 * Trinisphere
--------------------
Sideboard
11 * Relenless Rats
4 * Tormod's Crypt

[chokin]

By removing the Wdilfires, and the Red cards mostly for that matter, it turns into MUD stax (which may not be a bad thing). Personally, I'm going to stick with Wildfire and see how it goes.

Well, I'd personally go for a Dragon Stompy base for mana. Drop Dynamo and Lotus. They're janky. They cost too much. Try to stick around 3 mana so you can consistently cast things by turns 1-2 and then if you have a Song, you also should have 5cc things. 6 mana is just awkward and it needs to be winning you the game.

@ jelly - I'd drop SSG for 2 lands, a Mox and another Moon. You don't need 30 mana sources. I think that unless you are running Seething Song to gun into bigger things, SSG is a wasted slot. That's just me. Also, while Tangle Wire is good, I'm unsure if you need it. But that's a personal preference.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
10 [UNH] Mountain
4 [JGC] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
2 [US] Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
3 [US] Wildfire
4 [P3K] Rolling Earthquake
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [RAV] Bottled Cloister
4 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [UD] Thran Dynamo

Version Im testing. Slow as hell to win but after a few turns set up, you drop Karn and BAM!, alpha strike.

[davidboan]

A Mate of mine run a Red Stax deck. Its slow as hell and I'd probably never play it in a tournament because I doubt I could play it to time but it works well for Her.

LAND
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland

DUDES
4 Goblin Welder
4 Magus of the Moon

STUFF
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds

[Jeff Kruchkow]

A Mate of mine run a Red Stax deck. Its slow as hell and I'd probably never play it in a tournament because I doubt I could play it to time but it works well for Her.

LAND
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland

DUDES
4 Goblin Welder
4 Magus of the Moon

STUFF
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds

How do you win?

[_erbs_]

Hello,
I used to run wildfire stax, but i abandoned it due to it never got support cards as compared to other colors like white.

My old list..

Lands [24]
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
13 Mountains

Accelerants [7]
4 Mox Diamond
2 Coldsteel Heart
1 Wornpower stone

Utilities [25]
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crusible of Worlds
4 Wildfire
4 Tanglewire
2 Bloodmoon
3 Firespout

Creatures [4]
4 Covetous Dragon


I never bottered running a welder build since he just dies to easily and your penalized in using boardsweepers.

The list before really looked it had potential i exprimented different builds for about a year but stax followers before was very small and i never got it to work at a competitive level.

[overseer1234]

Whell, I know this deck splashes, but the last time I played my colorles staxx build it looked like this:

LAND
4 Blinkmoth Nexus/Mutavault
4 Mishra's factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland

DUDES
4 Duplicant
4 Triskelion

STUFF
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 -insert experimental card here- could be four of anything depending on the meta, like more (man)land, ensnaring bridge, uba mask, scarecrone (recurring duplicant's and trisk's are cool) Sword of fire and ice,..... (that last one isn't as bad as you think with 8 manland)
Also if you splash a color and want to go for creature's like magus or welder I would definetly try out solemn simulacrum. With the amounts of mana this deck can make it come's down fast enough and it is a 3 for 1 most of the time

[davidboan]

How do you win?

Slowly. You win by attacking with Welders and Moon Men. I think it needs more win conditions personally but trying to convince Her of that is the problem

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Slowly. You win by attacking with Welders and Moon Men. I think it needs more win conditions personally but trying to convince Her of that is the problem

got ya. well you should inform her that sometimes people play with time limits. 80 minutes to win is a bad thing.

[emidln]

got ya. well you should inform her that sometimes people play with time limits. 80 minutes to win is a bad thing.

Going to time with Stax isn't actually all that common if the pilot is competent. At Gencon (Legacy Champs) I finished 4 games one year playing R/g Stax (the 4th was forced because I killed us with Rolling Earthquake for the draw in game 2). When an opponent has very few plays they shouldn't be taking very long for their turn and your turn can be finished quickly as well (turning a couple of dudes sideways isn't time consuming).

[sdematt]

emidln, any ideas for a Wildfire list? You said you used Tarmo's, Razorcore, Ensnaring Bridge; any ideas for a list? :D

[emidln]

emidln, any ideas for a Wildfire list? You said you used Tarmo's, Razorcore, Ensnaring Bridge; any ideas for a list? :D

I never could get Wildfires or other huge spells to resolve. When I played, I ran Sun Tower, which looked like this:

4 Sylvan Library
3 Words of Wilding
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Rolling Earthquake/Firespout
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB: 4 Goblin Welder
SB: 4 Pithing Needle

Other cards to consider:

Tarmogoyf
Rolling Earthquake
Krosan Grip
Engineered Explosives
Boil
Sphere of Resistance
Tormod's Crypt

To be perfectly honest, I'd run Firespout right now maindeck over Rolling Earthquake although I wouldn't run Stax at all. RQuaking away Goyf is usually not possible (or profitable) and you should be using other things to deal with that guy. The basics configuration is off with so many green spells, but you need red for your sweeper.

About not running Stax at all:

Burn-based Zoo is an abysmal matchup. You absolutely need both Chalice @ 1 and Chalice @ 2 early and you probably won't ever get Chalice @ 2 before Pridemage hits.

Krosan Grip on Ensnaring Bridge is a death sentence.

I hate 25 land decks that never draw lands. (This is a personal problem.)

[davidboan]

got ya. well you should inform her that sometimes people play with time limits. 80 minutes to win is a bad thing.

The thing is She can play it to a time limit. I've seen her go to 3 games a few times and still be done before Me playing something fast like Goblins. I guess it helps that a lot of people get the shits and scoop to it

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I got a tournament report from earlier today. I used the original deck list from the original post, -1 Gods Eye, +1 Burning of Xinye. Here it goes

Match 1 Against Doomsday - Gus Schade (yawg07)
I start the game with a Turn 2 Tangle Wire. Hes got Non Basics, I waste one, and I get Mishras Helix.
I keep his lands tapped down, Chalice at 1, and After attemptiong to cast Wildfire, we goto game two. Game two I keep a hand with turn 1 CotV, but he plays top turn 1. I draw nothing good, and turn 4 he meditates and kills me by dropping 0 casters and Cabal rits and ill gotten gains...
Game 3 I keep a hand, which I regret on Keeping... of 6 lands and a Tangle Wire. He kills me turn 3, because I have no disruption.

0-1-0

Match 2 Against Tempo Thresh Kaz Vipperman
I keep a very solid hand with 3 lands, 3 chalice and a Tangle Wire. He S. Snares the first chalice, the second one gets forced, and the third one sticks. I drop crucible and the Helix, and begin to tap his mana. I end up Killing him with Karn, a Tangle Wire, and A Crucible.
Game 2 He lands a 2nd turn Goyf, 3rd turn Predator, and just rides it to victory. Game 3 I get off Earthquake to kill Mongoose and predator, and with no lock pieces, He Counters Blood Moon, but After swinging with double factory a few times, I end up Rolling Earthquaking his ass out of the game.

1-1-0

Match 3 Against Dragon Stompy (Angela?)
I get 2nd turn Trinisphere, and 3rd turn tangle wire. She Mulled to 5, with really bad hands, And after she plays Blood Moon, I realize I have to find Karn to win. After she draws no Land, and I draw all land, I Cast Dynamo, and since she tapped a tomb Earlier, she was at 2 less life than me, and I earthquake for 11, then for 7 to finish her off. Game two I draw a very Solid Hand with Karn, Bunch of Crucibles and Wires, Mox Diamond and 2 lands. She cChalices for zero, and cuts me off red, and after playing Blood Moon, I thought she had me. But She overextends and has 2 Pit Dragons, 2 Maulers, and 1 Magus out, and I animate her Chalice at end step, and then I cast the Diamond, giving me the red for earthquake. I earthquake for 4, because maulers are 3/3's, and the Mistake I made was not to swing with Karn. So I Killed karn, and all her creatures, but She drops Magus and swings for 2 to ill me. Game 3 is very fast paced. She chalices for 0 after I already dropped Mox, and then she drops a Raiders, hellbent,. but I have Karn, Stacks, crucible and Wire out. She equips Jitte, and Doesnt swing (for some odd reason.) She swings in, I block with Crucible, and Swing for 11, then Earthquake for 3 to finish her off.

2-1-0

Match 4 Against UGR Dreadstill - Adam Gruber
I flat out lose game 1 because he has Crucible waste lock, so I cannot see more than 3 Mana at one time. I Board in Moons, Save me well in game 2 and 3. I get trinisphere out turn 2, Followed by Karn, Crucible, and Loc him off mana with the 3sphere. Karn Beatdown! Game 3 I keep an alright hand. Sorry I dont remember the exacts, but It consisted of Moon, Factory, Canopy, Castle, Diamond, Chalice, and etc. Chalice for one sticks, which is bad for the dreadstill player. I Cast Blood Moon turn 3, and he BEB's it, but Chalice countered it, cuz he is a n00b. So In the desperate time, he casts Standstill. So we have a bunch of mountains, and just draw go for about 13 turns. I Draw 9 lands in a row, followed by blood moons, chalices, Karn, and A Bunch of other garbage. He See's an explosives, and he casts for 0. I draw 3 off standstill. He blows up chalice, and Casts stifle Dreadnought. He passes it to me, and Im at 14 after tapping canopy and tomb twice. I take my turn with 11 cards. I cast crucible, it resolves. I cast CotV at 1, resolves.... Cast Chalice at 0.... Resolves... Cast Karn.... Resolves. Then I cast Shattering Spree copying it 6 times (thats how much mana I had. He had F/I, 2 FoW, and 2 BEB. He scoops it up, and its off to round 5

3-1-0

I split with Nathan Bundey (BlueNeverFails) to make it into top 8

3-1-1

Playoffs
Top 8 Against John Wiley with Tempo Thresh
I get Tangle Wire online, but he sees 3 wastelands, and locks me to 3 mana, and beats my face with a tarmogoyf til I die....
Game 2
I keep a hand with 6 lands and a Burning. I cast Mox, and Play mountain. He gets goose out. I play a horixzzon, and he attempts to waste it, so I draw a card. I have the opportunity to cast blood moon, I have 6 mana, and 2 moons and Burning. I cast Blood moon. he floats mana, and I cast a second moon. He rushing Rivers both back to my hand (Im retarded. He drops a 4/5 Goyf and I just dont have an answer. Good Game
3-2-1

Overall it worked well. I have the same problem I had with White stacks and Dying to tarmogoyf. I think The Helix Drops, and Even an earthquake (didnt play against alot of aggro). I think with the Importance of the lands, Blood Moon is not a good choice. I didnt side Kegs in once, and Wished I had ensnaring Bridge most of the time. So I think I go

-1 R. Earthquake
-1 Mishras Helix
-1 Smokestacks

+3 Ensnaring Bridge...

[Shanghi Knights]

Now that you got access to metalworker, could that add a serious boost to your deck? i mean if your abusing rolling earthquake it certainly could kill metalworker, but before he dies he powers up a huge earthquake without having to draw mana from any land or mox sources you have other than 1 red.