All B/R update speculation. [Archive] - Page 12

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 03:45 PM

Yeah I am sure Ancestral Recall reduces variance, it also generates card advantage something brainstorm does not do. You can't really compare the two on a level playing field.

Yes one is absolutely more powerful, I don't debate that. But they are both restricted in Vintage. You take the infantile view of card advantage and you discount the value of cards when viewed in the context of an active game of magic. This is why brainstorm 8-for-8 SCGs and 12-for-16 GPs. Most cards in magic like any resource in any game have a relative value based on the game state ('situational value'), brainstorm in conjunction with a shuffle effect allows to to ... like no other unbanned card ... exchange cards with little situational value for those with great situational value for so little investment of mana (along with replacing itself ... as it's draw3put3back). The simple example for most traditionally constructed decks is a land. A land has high value in the early turns as you build resources, later in the game it's value diminishes if the board state has developed. STP has little value when staring down a goblin charbelcher on the stack. I'm sure you and your play group understand these concepts well.

Look, if you just like playing with the card and don't want it banned I'm completely fine with that. But don't fight the losing argument that given the current ban list that it doesn't belong there.

If I held the keys, I probably wouldn't ban brainstorm without at least trying some unbannings first. I'd go with something like

- Mind Twist

- Earthcraft (laughable really ... since any Earthcraft combo deck would likely play Brainstorm as it's the best way to get rid of superflous pieces and find the other part of the combo)

- Black Vise

I'd like

- Land Tax (with Vise keeping it in check)

and

- Survival (slow, and with so much gravehate running around)

to get unbanned also, but honestly these two cards in conjunction with brainstorm are probably too much.

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 03:50 PM

You don't seem to understand the aspects of the game outside of playing it mechanically. Cards that manipulate the deck are often used to cheat, and no card that manipulates the deck is used more often than Brainstorm. The card is used in conjunction with fetch lands more often than any other card to cheat. On multiple occasions I have seen people perform a complex set of actions at once and use the flurry of activity to draw four from Brainstorm or stack their deck while resolving a fetch land. Perhaps you understand how cards work, and how a card is good, but you don't seem to understand how a format is balanced, and you certainly don't understand higher concepts like how people are able to cheat, which is disquieting, because they are willing and able, and almost certainly have done so against you.

Are you fucking kidding me. Of course I know people cheat at this game. I have seen people cheat in all kinds of ways from mulling to seven, to brainstorming four, to fetch tutoring. What I am saying is, I don't think you can claim that everyone who plays brainstorm is a cheater, just like you can't say anyone who uses fetchlands is a cheater, or anyone who mulligans is a cheater.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 03:53 PM

I never thought of it this way, but you're right!

I didn't even get into keep / mulligan decisions. Which when you are playing brainstorm are fucking child's play compared to when you aren't. Keep-able on the draw, one land brainstorm hands are no problem.

Tammit67

06-11-2012, 04:02 PM

I didn't even get into keep / mulligan decisions. Which when you are playing brainstorm are fucking child's play compared to when you aren't. Keep-able on the draw, one land brainstorm hands are no problem.

Reduced variance. Maverick does it by having a ton of redundant drops, blue does it with brainstorm.

colo

06-11-2012, 04:02 PM

I'm not playing blue decks for the most time, but I really don't want Brainstorm to get the axe. BS can be as much part of the cure as it is part of the disease.

The disease, these days, seems to be Griselbrand - well, mostly. Before its printing, after all, SnT has been pretty much "in check", right? Even with Emrakul, which is about as outrageously absurdly over-te-top-ed-ly (these are all words now!) "designed" as it gets. The fact that a 10/10 invulnerable hydra-headed two-turn-clock cheated into play on turn two doesn't make anyone's head turn in comparison to Griselbrand should be telling you something.

Same thing happened with Survival of the Fittest and Vengevine a few moons back. I don't believe in all that "card X takes away 'R&D design space'!11!"-bullshit for a second, "R&D" (am I the only one who finds it a bit presumptuous for a company's card-game design department to name itself like that by the way?) just gotta get its shit together and not fuck up designing new cards as often as they happen to do. WotC, please just stop shitting out absurd yu-gi-oh-style fatties on a regular basis that can ruin a format if let loose on it with the tools you have printed before. Thanks very much.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 04:02 PM

You have NO idea how much vintage I have played.

I'm sure you tear it up at "Bob's Baseball Dugout" brah. Which of the 6 chairs do you usually sit in?

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/40024_136658119704921_4037440_n.jpg

Edit: A friend of mine just pointed out the part about college calc and I LOLed. Some how that's a metric of intelligence. (Full disclosure - I have a bachelors degree in Comp Sci, so yeah I had to take calc in college)

Awesome. I do as well, I feel so close to you now man.

pants

06-11-2012, 04:04 PM

I'm sure you tear it up at "Bob's Baseball Dugout" brah. Which of the 6 chairs do you usually sit in?

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/40024_136658119704921_4037440_n.jpg

Awesome. I do as well, I feel so close to you now man.

There's... there's eight chairs there. I think there are more than eight legacy decks. If you and seven friends had every card in Legacy and were able to build every deck, you still couldn't replicate an actual legacy tournament environment. What makes you think you're qualified to decide what gets banned or unbanned?

Edit: Ten chairs. Sorry, you and nine friends.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 04:04 PM

Reduced variance. Maverick does it by having a ton of redundant drops, blue does it with brainstorm.

To some extent tutors as well. GSZ represents a cross section of your deck. Sylvan Library can help, as can the deck thinning of fetches and knights as the game goes long. But none are as cheap and efficient as brainstorm.

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 04:07 PM

Yes one is absolutely more powerful, I don't debate that. But they are both restricted in Vintage. You take the infantile view of card advantage and you discount the value of cards when viewed in the context of an active game of magic. This is why brainstorm 8-for-8 SCGs and 12-for-16 GPs. Most cards in magic like any resource in any game have a relative value based on the game state ('situational value'), brainstorm in conjunction with a shuffle effect allows to to ... like no other unbanned card ... exchange cards with little situational value for those with great situational value for so little investment of mana (along with replacing itself ... as it's draw3put3back). The simple example for most traditionally constructed decks is a land. A land has high value in the early turns as you build resources, later in the game it's value diminishes if the board state has developed. STP has little value when staring down a goblin charbelcher on the stack. I'm sure you and your play group understand these concepts well.

I guess my (infantile) definition of card advantage is different from yours. You see I define card advantage thusly: "If a sequence of plays (or decisions) ends with a player up one or more cards, that player has gained card advantage." What brainstorm provides is Card Quality.

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 04:10 PM

There's... there's eight chairs there. I think there are more than eight legacy decks. If you and seven friends had every card in Legacy and were able to build every deck, you still couldn't replicate an actual legacy tournament environment. What makes you think you're qualified to decide what gets banned or unbanned?

You can replicate a gauntlet with two people. You can't tell me you only do testing at tournaments. If you do that explains a lot about where you people get your frustration from. It isn't Brainstorm it's lack of testing. Also, it's not like that is the only place I play Legacy at but we do have a large number of hardcore legacy players from a town of under 5,000.

Tammit67

06-11-2012, 04:13 PM

To some extent tutors as well. GSZ represents a cross section of your deck. Sylvan Library can help, as can the deck thinning of fetches and knights as the game goes long. But none are as cheap and efficient as brainstorm.

Brainstorm isn't a guarantee though. it's similar (albeit more powerful) than having gitaxian probe in your hand. it makes mulliganing more awkward because you don't know if you will hit that 2nd land. Sure it lets you keep looser hands on the hopes of getting there, but without constructing the deck with this in mind, you won't and just lose.

Cheap and efficient is what this format is. That is why we play this format, because it is powerful and we get to play our powerful spells quickly.

You can't ask for a card to be removed from the pool for being cheap and effective, as every viable card these days is undercosted for its effect. You have to demonstrate (broken levels of)dominance, which I am not convinced of yet especially the wax and wane mentality of deck choices at SCG events. However long ago we were full on Maverick, and soon the ebb and flow of what is in vogue will shift away from what it currerntly is. Give it time

dontbiteitholmes

06-11-2012, 04:15 PM

Assuming you are somehow correct at least we'd see an end to supply issues, prices would fall and make a great format accessible to more people. Probably people who are sick of the stalest least interactive format of all Standard. Where people sit around and ramp things onto the board and have no interaction on the stack at all. Oh wait ... that's the format you are going to run to for refuge. That makes a ton of sense. I also love how you would 'buy a deck' ... since the thought of actually making one hasn't crossed your brain. Which dovetails into why you cling to Brainstorm like a dog on a bone, you just can't picture a deck without it because you just haven't played much magic.

It's not the 1000s of people who own a playset of duals who are the problem, it's the 100s of people who own 100s of dual lands. Apparently these geniuses refer to this as an "investment" and fail to understand that a good 10-20% of the demand for dual lands is because of like minded individuals. Apparently these "investors" fail to understand that their hoarding only hastens the demise of Legacy and that when SCG stops supporting sanctioned Legacy, and WotC announces no more Legacy GPs because of supply issues, and 99.99% of local events allow proxies because of supply issues, that is going to cause probably 50% of dual land owners to sell them off (since they only bought them to play Legacy and now they don't need them to play Legacy), and that is not going to cause the price of dual lands to rise (and they will probably stay flat for a really long time after that, they are not even close to as rare as power and there will be a huge play stock getting sold).

Anyways I digress.

Exactly. You are building 56 card decks right now because there is no compelling reason, besides a chalice on 1 not to play 4 x Brainstorm. It doesn't take a savant deck builder to realize that.

There are reasons to not play blue, just far less right now. As S&T morphs into Reanimate expect that to change. Back when Merfolk was the DTB there was less reason to play any other blue deck (and Merfolk rarely ran BS). When Maverick was smashing everyone there was less reason to play blue. Ebb and flow, right now blue is at a peak but it will pass.

Sure, but it's clearly so far and away doing that job that the aggro deck, the combo deck, and the control deck all fucking play it. You know what else reduces variance? Ancestral Recall. Of course you've never played vintage so your perspective is a bit skewed.

You know what else decreases variance? Green Sun's Zenith, StoneForge Mystic, Burning Wish, and Infernal/Grim Tutor. That is why we are not Modern. We get to play with good cards that do powerful things instead of relying on top decks. Blue has the most powerful tool to reduce variance right now, but other colors are slowly catching up to blue's power level.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 04:16 PM

You can replicate a gauntlet with two people. You can't tell me you only do testing at tournaments. If you do that explains a lot about where you people get your frustration from. It isn't Brainstorm it's lack of testing.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-shT-_n5j0uI/T3Ys7bPZNqI/AAAAAAAAK3c/wgW-1h6MWXQ/s1600/what%2Bto%2Byou%2Bmean%2Byou%2Bpeople.jpg

You haven't even tried to refute the core argument that Brainstorm belongs on the banned list given what's currently on there.

You've countered with:

- I'd quit
- Skill intensive
- My playgroup is awesome
- I have a C.S. degree
- You all suck and don't test

pants

06-11-2012, 04:18 PM

You can replicate a gauntlet with two people. You can't tell me you only do testing at tournaments. If you do that explains a lot about where you people get your frustration from. It isn't Brainstorm it's lack of testing.

No, I have the privilege of a vibrant local legacy scene. There's a tournament every Wednesday, and everyone's pretty up-to-date on whatever just won last weekend. There aren't any poor people there either, so we have a wide variety of decks. If you think a gauntlet is a good way of testing, then I'm sorry for you.

Einherjer

06-11-2012, 04:19 PM

Ehm kids, couldn't you settle these things via PM?

rxavage

06-11-2012, 04:20 PM

People are still mad goblin's sucks?

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 04:21 PM

No, I have the privilege of a vibrant local legacy scene. There's a tournament every Wednesday, and everyone's pretty up-to-date on whatever just won last weekend. There aren't any poor people there either, so we have a wide variety of decks. If you think a gauntlet is a good way of testing, then I'm sorry for you.

How the fuck do you test for a big tournament, if not with a gauntlet?

Einherjer

06-11-2012, 04:21 PM

People are still mad goblin's sucks?

No they are still mad they can't play with Gluttonous Zombie!!

*cookie if you didn't look that card up*

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 04:24 PM

You can't ask for a card to be removed from the pool for being cheap and effective, as every viable card these days is undercosted for its effect. You have to demonstrate (broken levels of)dominance, which I am not convinced of yet especially the wax and wane mentality of deck choices at SCG events. However long ago we were full on Maverick, and soon the ebb and flow of what is in vogue will shift away from what it currerntly is. Give it time

Brainstorm has been dominant for 5 years now. It's an enabler in dominant decks of all archtypes (aggro, combo, control). Maybe the tipping point is finally R&Ds ridiculous blue creatures of the last year (Delver, SCM), or the miracle mechanic (this I doubt).

Again. I'd propose some unbannings before banning Brainstorm but to say it isn't worthy given some of the reasons given for past bannings

- ubiquity
- limiting design space
- potential for abuse

is foolish.

Snap_Keep

06-11-2012, 04:24 PM

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 04:25 PM

You haven't even tried to refute the core argument that Brainstorm belongs on the banned list given what's currently on there.

You've countered with:

- I'd quit
- Skill intensive
- My playgroup is awesome
- I have a C.S. degree
- You all suck and don't test

What is the core argument for banning? Is it ubiquity at the last SCG event top 8, I got news for you there was one less FoW than there was Brainstorm, so we have to ban that also? Limiting design space? Uh there are decks that don't play brainstorm right. There are even blue decks that don't. Also, that's just a bullshit argument in general, if you don't want to play brainstorm don't play it. Potential for abuse? That's just just a cop out. There are a lot of cards that can be abused.

pants

06-11-2012, 04:26 PM

How the fuck do you test for a big tournament, if not with a gauntlet?

Well, we get a couple people together, and talk about decks, and we play those decks, and we offer each other opinions, and we talk about the format. We don't pair up with each other and test our decks against every other deck in the format - we're smart enough to know that we don't need to test our enchantress match-up, and we're certainly smart enough to know every person doesn't play the same. You see, some people are better at playing certain decks than others, and it doesn't help your testing if you hand Bob a tendrils deck (while he isn't sorting baseball cards) to play against, because he isn't going to properly pilot it, making your "testing" worthless.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 04:28 PM

You know what else decreases variance? Green Sun's Zenith, StoneForge Mystic, Burning Wish, and Infernal/Grim Tutor. That is why we are not Modern. We get to play with good cards that do powerful things instead of relying on top decks. Blue has the most powerful tool to reduce variance right now, but other colors are slowly catching up to blue's power level.

I get what you are saying but you are reaching now. All of those have narrow targets, are sorcery speed and aren't anything close to Brainstorm.

I agree we play legacy and not modern because we want access to older more powerful cards, but again given what's on the ban list Brainstorm belongs right there.

Given some of the reasons we've been given for bannings in the explanations Brainstorm deserves to be banned.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 04:30 PM

QUUAAADDD POOSSSSTTT!!!!!!!! (oh... you deleted your 4 posts in a row... whatever)

Brainstorm keeps games reactive and fun. If you don't want powerful card drawing spells you should consider trying out Modern or T2, they have much more balanced colors/cards. Don't go on a crusade trying change a whole a format because you don't like Brainstorm

Mind Twist keeps games reactive and fun. If you don't want powerful discard spells you should consider taking a flying fuck at a rolling donut. Don't go on a crusade trying change a whole a format because you don't like Mind Twist.

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 04:30 PM

Well, we get a couple people together, and talk about decks, and we play those decks, and we offer each other opinions, and we talk about the format. We don't pair up with each other and test our decks against every other deck in the format - we're smart enough to know that we don't need to test our enchantress match-up, and we're certainly smart enough to know every person doesn't play the same. You see, some people are better at playing certain decks than others, and it doesn't help your testing if you hand Bob a tendrils deck (while he isn't sorting baseball cards) to play against, because he isn't going to properly pilot it, making your "testing" worthless.

Oh, you just don't know what a gauntlet is.

pants

06-11-2012, 04:33 PM

Oh, you just don't know what a gauntlet is.

Yeah, I suppose I don't know what your definition of gauntlet is. Can you define your terms in every subsequent post, please?

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 04:36 PM

Yeah, I suppose I don't know what your definition of gauntlet is. Can you define your terms in every subsequent post, please?

Sure, It's where you build up the decks you expect to see the most at an event, you know like the last SCG top 8 lists, dtb, and to a lesser extent, decks that seem to never go away (mostly affinity and burn.) Then you play each other until you feel comfortable with the match-up and figure out side-boarding plans. Then we get drunk.

Snap_Keep

06-11-2012, 04:36 PM

Mind Twist keeps games reactive and fun. If you don't want powerful discard spells you should consider taking a flying fuck at a rolling donut. Don't go on a crusade trying change a whole a format because you don't like Mind Twist.

Ha... well, you didn't get what I said at all I guess, or you did, but didn't know how to respond so you thought you'd try trolling.

Mind Twist isn't reactive, it's proactive. Brainstorm is the biggest skill tester and one of best cards in the format for many reasons. It is fantastic in the hands of someone knowledgeable and mediocre to bad when someone mediocre uses it. This is how games should work, they should be skill dependant, no card is more skill dependant in this format then Brainstorm. If you want to take out our format's hardest to use card then I think you should be playing a different format with easier to use cards.

If you want to ban cards based on their appearance in T8s should we also be banning Fetches and Force of Will? What about dual lands?

whienot

06-11-2012, 04:44 PM

The entire argument isn't about banning Brainstorm, but unbanning cards that are clearly below Brainstorm's power level.

Star|Scream

06-11-2012, 04:55 PM

Oh this is getting good....

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRA_IU13pee8K2u2ZDUPQahgVds8bwOwHT1wQR5MokVR3I0IP17mdugU3e2

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 04:58 PM

What is the core argument for banning? Is it ubiquity at the last SCG event top 8, I got news for you there was one less FoW than there was Brainstorm, so we have to ban that also?

Does FoW let you keep an otherwise unkeepable hand. No. Does FoW get played in every combo deck. No. Is FoW a fair answer to targeted discard. Yes. Is FoW a good top deck when you are losing. No.

But regardless ubiquity isn't the only argument. It's raw power level. I'd say Force of Will is a card that is close being ban worthy but can't affect board state, requires a reasonably heavy commitment to blue, and is most of the time draining to an important resource (your hand). Of course having brainstorm can gas up your hand again for the low low cost of U and sending back a sandbagged land and fetching.

Limiting design space? Uh there are decks that don't play brainstorm right.

Sure ... you can bring a chalice deck to a GP. But good luck navigating 10+ rounds without the ability to fix bad opening hands. Brainstorm is essentially a free mulligan in your opener. When teamed up with a fetch its card selection / quality / drawing that is unmatched.

There are a lot of cards that can be abused.

Sure. They are mostly on the banned list.

DCI has used a variety of reasons in the past. Of course you won't directly refute my core point ... is it, or is it not more powerful (ubiquitous, design space limiting, etc.) than several cards currently on the banned list?

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 05:03 PM

Cabal Therapy is the biggest skill tester and one of best cards in the format for many reasons. It is fantastic in the hands of someone knowledgeable and mediocre to bad when someone mediocre uses it. This is how games should work, they should be skill dependant, no card is more skill dependant in this format then Cabal Therapy. If you want to take out our format's hardest to use card then I think you should be playing a different format with easier to use cards.

Your argument applies to 50 different cards. The argument is about whether Brainstorm is on the power level or greater as the rest of the banned list. All of you stop stroking your wanna be semi-pro magic ego thinking you are some great practitioners of brainstorm-fu.

Also ... two skill intensives in one day! More than I ever could have hoped for :laugh:

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 05:07 PM

Of course you won't directly refute my core point ... is it, or is it not more powerful (ubiquitous, design space limiting, etc.) than several cards currently on the banned list?

No I won't refute what is now your core point. There are cards on the banned list that I think are worse than brainstorm. But I don't see how that equates to brainstorm being banned. I think there are cards on the banned list that are worse than a lot of cards that see play but that doesn't mean that all those cards being played should be banned. You can move the goal posts where ever you like, but I still hold the position that banning Brainstorm would be bad for the format.

xfxf

06-11-2012, 05:29 PM

You should be able to see beyond the Brainstorm's power level and try to imagine a format without one. Would you still play RUG? What about the control decks you are still trying to make work (BUG, UW Miracle etc.)? So OK, Vial decks are back in the format. Without Brainstorm will you play Griselbrand decks or Storm to punish the fair decks? Best fixers left in the format are Green Sun's Zenith and Goblin Ring Leader.

Still you can have a nice diversity with multiple mono colored decks. I suppose I would play straight up burn since I'd rather play a very redundant deck when variance is the new thing. Is there still a reason (or a way) to play non-linear decks or anything blue?

I'd make a similar argument about the necessity of Delver in the format. I'm not sure if it would be fun for anybody to play in a format without Delver (read RUG) but with Brainstorm (read Storm and Sneak&Show).

Snap_Keep

06-11-2012, 05:37 PM

Your argument applies to 50 different cards. The argument is about whether Brainstorm is on the power level or greater as the rest of the banned list. All of you stop stroking your wanna be semi-pro magic ego thinking you are some great practitioners of brainstorm-fu.

Also ... two skill intensives in one day! More than I ever could have hoped for :laugh:

Huh, you're not even trying, too bad.

I'm not a master of brainstorm-fu. Are you saying Brainstorm is easier to use then Cabal Therapy? I don't get why you want to make fun of me calling me "a wanna be semi pro" for liking cards that are challenging and rewarding to use optimally

I think most people who play magic like the challenge of trying to use cards to their fullest capability, Brainstorm is the epitome of a challenging spell to use optimally. Most people enjoy that challenge, I think you're the outlier.

Gheizen64

06-11-2012, 05:38 PM

Brainstorm being a skill-tester is one of the biggest lies of this format. You know what's ten thousand times more skill intensive? Portent, Top, Ponder. Just by being sorceries, they involve a much more complex decision tree.
Brainstorm isn't the most skill intensive card of the format. Brainstorm require you to cast it when u have a fetch open. Put the two worst card on top, shuffle. Top require one million more decisions, especially in early game by virtue of having a cost for seeing the top 3. Being an instant doesn't make a card more skill intensive, it's the opposite, since you can almost always play it at the right moment, whereas you couldn't with a sorcery and you'd have to ponder the opportunity cost of tapping mana on your turn.

Force of will require a big investment to blue, is a pretty bad topdeck, and is bad in some matchups where you don't want card-disadvantage whereas card advantage/selection is never bad. Also force of will existing mean Belcher and other similar non-protected combo decks sucks.

Fetchlands are 10 cards, and if you think that banning 10 cards when u could ban 1 to get a similar effect (less consistent manabases) is a good idea, well you have your opinion man, but that's not mine.
Duals ARE Legacy.

Also, unban Tax, Twist, Vise, Jar and Earthcraft plz.

You should be able to see beyond the Brainstorm's power level and try to imagine a format without one. Would you still play RUG? What about the control decks you are still trying to make work (BUG, UW Miracle etc.)? So OK, Vial decks are back in the format. Without Brainstorm will you play Griselbrand decks or Storm to punish the fair decks? Best fixers left in the format are Green Sun's Zenith and Goblin Ring Leader.

Still you can have a nice diversity with multiple mono colored decks. I suppose I would play straight up burn since I'd rather play a very redundant deck when variance is the new thing. Is there still a reason (or a way) to play non-linear decks or anything blue?

I'd make a similar argument about the necessity of Delver in the format. I'm not sure if it would be fun for anybody to play in a format without Delver (read RUG) but with Brainstorm (read Storm and Sneak&Show).

Best fixers in a world without BS would probably be Ponder, Top and GSZ. Or just play more card drawing, since BS wasn't exactly a T1 play before.

Snap_Keep

06-11-2012, 05:45 PM

To me, and many others, Brainstorm is Legacy.

At a certain point it's a matter of opinion and nobody is going to change the other persons mind. People always laugh at the suggestion that banning Brainstorm would drive away many of the format's players, but if you look at people's responses (not just here, on other forums and IRL) it seems like many people would quit.

Can you imagine the backlash that would come with banning Duals, Fetches or FoW? I think it's naive to not expect, or to not care about, a similar backlash from axing Brainstorm.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 05:48 PM

You should be able to see beyond the Brainstorm's power level and try to imagine a format without one. Would you still play RUG?

I'm imagining non-chalice decks with 60 cards of deck building space instead of 56.

If I wanted to build a red, green, blue aggro deck I would. I'd just sit down and put it together. I'd think it would share many of the same cards. Land base might get a little bit more fair, and I'm just speculating but with all the U cantrips I still think you could play a low curve aggro deck like tempo-thresh on 14-16 mana producing lands.

What about the control decks you are still trying to make work (BUG, UW Miracle etc.)? Without Brainstorm will you play Griselbrand decks or Storm to punish the fair decks?

Again all the decks you list all play Brainstorm the combo decks ... sneak show decks, Reanimator etc., everydeck is playing Brainstorm ... so banning it (which I'm not 100% advocating) would mean all the 8 decks in the top 8 (or 26 of 32 at a GP, or 7 of 8 at Bazaar of Moxen) would have to change. They'd all likely get a little less consistent and thus make room for some non blue decks. Discard would become a bit more viable.

Best fixers left in the format are Green Sun's Zenith and Goblin Ring Leader.

Not sure what you are getting at with this comparison. Those cards aren't in the same world as brainstorm. GSZ is a good search card and ... uh GRL is a 4 mana 2/2 in a world where Recruiter is still banned.

Still you can have a nice diversity with multiple mono colored decks. I suppose I would play straight up burn since I'd rather play a very redundant deck when variance is the new thing. Is there still a reason (or a way) to play non-linear decks or anything blue?

You should play what you want to play. Burn is an option. It packs pretty solidly to men with weapons, runs out of gas. In my opinion it seems like a terribly boring deck to play. Removing Brainstorm wouldn't just completely turn the game into a game of Duel Masters.

Force of Will, Ponder, Preordain, Impulse, Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Show and Tell, Daze, every Merfolk Lord, Misdirection, Divert, Metamorph, Tezzeret, Mana Leak, Counterspell, Negate, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, High Tide, Stifle, Fact or Fiction, Sower of Temptation, Spellstutter Sprite, Ninja of the Deep Hours ...

Blue has some decent cards left to pick from.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 05:49 PM

Can you imagine the backlash that would come with banning Duals, Fetches or FoW? I think it's naive to not expect, or to not care about, a similar backlash from axing Brainstorm.

Duals are legacy.

That comparison is complete horseshit because Brainstorm is $.25.

rxavage

06-11-2012, 05:49 PM

Also, unban Tax, Twist, Vise, Jar and Earthcraft plz.

I'd be more than happy with this. I'd love to play grim/memories.

That's complete horseshit because Brainstorm is $.25.

The truth has been exposed, it's all about money for Mr. Leeds

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 05:55 PM

Huh, you're not even trying, too bad.

I'm not a master of brainstorm-fu. Are you saying Brainstorm is easier to use then Cabal Therapy? I don't get why you want to make fun of me calling me "a wanna be semi pro" for liking cards that are challenging and rewarding to use optimally

I think most people who play magic like the challenge of trying to use cards to their fullest capability, Brainstorm is the epitome of a challenging spell to use optimally. Most people enjoy that challenge, I think you're the outlier.

I'm mocking you because you tow the semi-pro bullshit line of Brainstorm being this holy fucking grail of skill in magic. Which just isn't true. So many cards test "skill" many more so then your average 'I haven't hit my land drop' brainstorm. The whole 'skill intensive' argument which discounts the game state is just dumb anyway. Umezawa's Jitte can be a skill intensive (tm) card when you are facing an Ensnaring Bridge with an equipped Noble Hierarch. Targeted discard can be the most skill intensive (tm) activity in magic, because it involves thinking through your future lines of play, their lines of play, your resources, the %'s of their top decks, their mana ratio, your threats, etc. etc.. Brainstorm can absolutely be a card that requires tough decision making, weighing odds and resources, but it's not some fucking Jacobian matrix problem.

xfxf

06-11-2012, 05:58 PM

My whole post was describing an imaginary format without Brainstorms so you might want to read that with this in mind. All the decks I listed in your second quote is Brainstorm decks yes, that's why I listed them and then asked if you'd still play them without brainstorm. Your quote about GSZ and Goblin Ringleader should make more sense when you try to imagine a format without Brainstorm. That's why I started my post saying you should try to see beyond the power level and imagine how the format would evolve without it.

Edit: I also think that people who find Brainstorm overpowered should consider lesser powered formats where they can play cards like Ninja of the Deep Hours. Brainstorm is Legacy just like dual lands, and swords to plowshares and dark ritual and duress and all those old bordered rudimentary cards we used to play in Standard some years ago.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 06:01 PM

but if you look at people's responses (not just here, on other forums and IRL) it seems like many people would quit.

23% of the people here think Tarmogoyf should be banned. I could give wooden nickel about the opinions of most people if that represents the field.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 06:04 PM

My whole post was describing an imaginary format without Brainstorms so you might want to read that with this in mind. All the decks I listed in your second quote is Brainstorm decks yes, that's why I listed them and then asked if you'd still play them without brainstorm. Your quote about GSZ and Goblin Ringleader should make more sense when you try to imagine a format without Brainstorm. That's why I started my post saying you should try to see beyond the power level and imagine how the format would evolve without it.

I think it might be great. Or it might just be very similar decks with toned down consistency and some more decision making. Brainstorm makes every deck it's in easier to play, easier to mulligan, easier to mana fix, easier to dig out a solution, easier to avoid disruption. I think a better plan would be to unban some cards and see what happens first. If it becomes clear that the format is a 56 card format across all archetypes then maybe Brainstorm should go.

wolfstorm

06-11-2012, 06:05 PM

23% of the people here think Tarmogoyf should be banned. I could give wooden nickel about the opinions of most people if that represents the field.

Old poll is old?.. And remember, Tarmogoyf is actually the Antichrist.

Esper3k

06-11-2012, 06:15 PM

Old poll is old?.. And remember, Tarmogoyf is actually the Antichrist.

I hear he's related to that guy who killed Hans...

AEnesidem

06-11-2012, 06:15 PM

If brainstorm is banned, we start a european format: "free from american whiners bullshit". (not implying all americans whine). I never hear anyone complaining here.

Gheizen64

06-11-2012, 06:19 PM

23% of the people here think Tarmogoyf should be banned. I could give wooden nickel about the opinions of most people if that represents the field.

First this poll is old as shit. Second, a Goyf ban would have had a lot of sense before KotR, Nacatl, Delver, Guide, Ooze etc... were printed. But this was a pretty old discussion and i won't go there.

Tacosnape

06-11-2012, 06:21 PM

The question I pose to the Ban Brainstorm because of the 32/32 Brainstorm people is this:

Would you call for the banning of Wasteland if it made 32/32?

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 06:21 PM

If brainstorm is banned, we start a european format: "free from american whiners bullshit". (not implying all americans whine). I never hear anyone complaining here.

That's because they all have government jobs and 6 weeks vacation. What's to complain about? :confused:

TooCloseToTheSun

06-11-2012, 06:22 PM

If brainstorm is banned, we start a european format: "free from american whiners bullshit". (not implying all americans whine). I never hear anyone complaining here.

At least then I wouldn't have to quit legacy, I could just move to Europe and be free of the whiners.

Snap_Keep

06-11-2012, 06:27 PM

At least then I wouldn't have to quit legacy, I could just move to Europe and be free of the whiners.

Vacrix

06-11-2012, 06:27 PM

Brainstorm is the biggest skill tester and one of best cards in the format for many reasons. It is fantastic in the hands of someone knowledgeable and mediocre to bad when someone mediocre uses it. This is how games should work, they should be skill dependant, no card is more skill dependant in this format then Brainstorm.
Sensei's Divining Top and Doomsday would like to have a word with you.

EDIT:
Also, I watch a lot of games sometimes just cause I have so much time in between games playing SI, and I like to sit and watch the blue players. People whiff on their Brainstorms all the time without knowing it because it comes back to bite them in the ass much later in the game. Then again, if you play something like BUG Tempo which allows you to play discard and see the opponents hand, you have more information and its harder to whiff. Still, I don't think people have taken the time to consider the implications of a misplayed Brainstorm, and how often it happens. Its a subtle misplay most of the time, not blatant like 'ahhh shit, I flipped one too many on Ad Nauseam, looks like I lose, guy.'

JamieW89

06-11-2012, 06:45 PM

Brainstorm surely is very powerful, but I would hate to see it banned. It makes the format more fun for me without putting one strategy (Either U-based Aggro Control or U-based Combo) over the top in my eyes. The power level of Brainstorm did not make for the 32/32 showing, the state of the format did. Brainstorm was always strong, and there have always been decks that abuse it very well. But there have been many times when anti-blue decks such as Maverick or Vial based decks (mainly Merfolk) were the main tier-1 strategy. The current format is RUG/SnT. RUG and most SnT variants (except for hypergenesis) play Brainstorm. The latest answer to this meta, Reanimate, also packs brainstorms. Besides, a card being so popular is not a reason to ban it as long as it it played by a wide variety of decks. While one does need to play fetchlands and at least 1-2 blue duals to enable Brainstorms it cannot be said that it's only played by a small variety of decks. The same goes for cards such as Wasteland. This argument is of lesser strength for Force of Will, but that card serves a different role in this format (keeping silly combo decks such as Belcher and SI in check). While Show and Tell is played in different decks it's actually only playable in one strategy; U-based combo.

Show and Tell is a card I can actually see getting banned. If it won't happen now it'll happen later as it'll only become stronger because of Wizards printing more silly overcosted permanents and that alone puts a card on the watchlist judging by what happened to Mystical (which was a correct ban for the wrong reasons) and Survival (which was a wrong ban imo, but can be understood).
It is also fairly hard to fight all the angles that Show and Tell has, which makes it a much more bannable card than Jizzlebrand or Sneaky Derp in my eyes.
I think the format can perfectly survive with Show and Tell in it until the next B&R update but I won't shed a tear if it does face the wrath of the banhammer.

Looking at the banlist for possible unbans I see many options, but I don't expect to them to unban too much any time soon. Cards I'd like to see are Black Vise, Earthcraft, Land Tax & Mind Twist and possibly some of the combo engines such as Memory Jar because I doubt they are that much stronger than Ad Nauseam or Time Spiral. Some other cards could come off but won't because of the cost (Library would be fine imo) or because they've been banned recently (Survival).

PS: Brainstorm definately does add to the amount of skill needed to play your deck optimally but it's not the hardest card to play (Top, Doomsday, Therapy and some dead cards such as FoF or Gifts come to mind) and the skill issue is slightly overused.

Gheizen64

06-11-2012, 07:34 PM

DragoFireheart

06-11-2012, 08:01 PM

Remember what happened to Vintage when Brainstorm got restricted? Killed the format.

Know what will happen if you ban Brainstorm in Legacy? You will kill the format.

Brainstorm is a fun card that isn't excessively powerful.

Why did I talk about it in past posts in this topic? Because discussion is fun.

But go ahead and cry out for Brainstorm to be banned. Have fun with that fallout. :laugh:

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 08:45 PM

If banning Brainstorm kills the format then the format sucked to begin with. Vintage died off because of the reserved list. If legacy dies it'll be because of the reserved list, not because of a U instant. SCG stopped the Power 9 series because legacy became the more profitable format.

dsck

06-11-2012, 08:48 PM

The current format is RUG/SnT.

Nope, thats the SCG format. Although I admit RUG is placing very high everywhere and I cant blame people jumping the grisel-wagon as it seems very fun deck to play.

For example Bazaar Moxen top8:
1 Maverick
3 Thresh
1 Sneak & Show
1 Blue Zoo
1 Esper Tempo
1 Doomsday
1 Blade Control

PTQ Ghent I played in last weekend had the following decks in t8:
2 UW Countertop (1 Miracle, 1 Thopter)
4 Thresh
1 NLT
1 Sneak & Show

Brainstorm everywhere :cry: Hopefully people adapt their Maverick lists (Revoker/whatever else has been discussed lately) and we see some mavericks in top8s again.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 08:58 PM

Nope, thats the SCG format. Although I admit RUG is placing very high everywhere and I cant blame people jumping the grisel-wagon as it seems very fun deck to play.

For example Bazaar Moxen top8:
1 Maverick
3 Thresh
1 Sneak & Show
1 Blue Zoo
1 Esper Tempo
1 Doomsday
1 Blade Control

That's 9 decks. 8 with Brainstorm.

PTQ Ghent I played in last weekend had the following decks in t8:
2 UW Countertop (1 Miracle, 1 Thopter)
4 Thresh
1 NLT
1 Sneak & Show

Brainstorm everywhere :cry: Hopefully people adapt their Maverick lists (Revoker/whatever else has been discussed lately) and we see some mavericks in top8s again.

Wow 8 for 8. It's hilarious that some people argue that the card isn't ban worthy. For those clinging to the Brainstorm-tit as the only reason you shuffle up a deck you better hope for some unbannings to shake things up.

dsck

06-11-2012, 09:10 PM

That's 9 decks. 8 with Brainstorm.

My bad, 2 Thresh instead of 3. Unless people count the Blue Zooish list as Thresh, in which case no blue zoo in that top8.

As for the Ban brainstorm debate, you are in the 21.50% minority (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22547-Ban-on-Brainstorm-Yes-or-No-%28Post-Snapcaster-Mage%29) and I happen agree with the 78.50%.

EDIT: Let me clarify that, roughly 80% of this legacy community agrees that brainstorm shouldnt be banned and I think we have some of the greatest legacy minds on these forums and I trust in their opinions.

joemauer

06-11-2012, 09:33 PM

That's 9 decks. 8 with Brainstorm.

Wow 8 for 8. It's hilarious that some people argue that the card isn't ban worthy. For those clinging to the Brainstorm-tit as the only reason you shuffle up a deck you better hope for some unbannings to shake things up.

The reason you are seeing brainstorm everywhere is because it is the best card of the 'current' best color. Show and Tell versus RUG is the format right now. I could see RUG losing some strength with the loss of brainstorm, but Show and Tell decks would hardly notice the loss of brainstorm.

If white was without question the best color, then swords to plowshares would be covering the top 8's. You know why? Because Swords to Plowshares is the best white card.

Same with mono black. Dark Ritual in a mono black deck is really close to a Black Lotus. In the right deck, Lion's Eye Diamond is a Black Lotus.

In fact, in the right deck Show and Tell is more powerful than Black Lotus. You see when Show and Tell was printed creatures were less powerful than spells. Hence you had Black Lotus restricted/banned while Show and Tell could only put permanents in play. Well flash forward 14 years(?) and now creatures are vastly more powerful than spells, and stupid powerful too.

Legacy is full of broken things. Brainstorm is no exception to this. It doesn't need to be banned though. It is on par with everything else crazy in the format.

With you argument of things being unbanned: you are right. Mind's Desire, Mind Twist, and Land Tax(probably time limits for this one) are outdated or the format has moved past them.

Lord Seth

06-11-2012, 09:41 PM

As for the Ban brainstorm debate, you are in the 21.50% minority (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22547-Ban-on-Brainstorm-Yes-or-No-%28Post-Snapcaster-Mage%29) and I happen agree with the 78.50%.

EDIT: Let me clarify that, roughly 80% of this legacy community agrees that brainstorm shouldnt be banned and I think we have some of the greatest legacy minds on these forums and I trust in their opinions.And over 80% (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23527-TimeWalk-2.0-Stillbirth) of people thought that Temporal Mastery should be banned. That's actually higher than the number you appealed to and it's a more recent poll. Do you therefore agree it should be banned?

dsck

06-11-2012, 09:48 PM

And over 80% (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23527-TimeWalk-2.0-Stillbirth) of people thought that Temporal Mastery should be banned. That's actually higher than the number you appealed to. Do you therefore agree it should be banned?

I see 40% voting yes and 40% voting no with 20% being neutral?

thefringthing

06-11-2012, 09:50 PM

Citing that poll is ridiculous. There are two different "ban it" options and one option to abstain. Totally biased.

Lord Seth

06-11-2012, 09:50 PM

I see 40% voting yes and 40% voting no with 20% being neutral?40% voted it should receive an emergency banning before it even entered the format. 40% voted that it should be banned, but not preemptively.

nedleeds

06-11-2012, 10:03 PM

I could see RUG losing some strength with the loss of brainstorm, but Show and Tell decks would hardly notice the loss of brainstorm.

The sneak and show decks run 12 awkward cards they don't want in multiples. The deck runs 19 lands. Over a 8-10 round tourney good luck with that. Brainstorm enables that deck to top 8 with some consistency.

If white was without question the best color, then swords to plowshares would be covering the top 8's. You know why? Because Swords to Plowshares is the best white card.

Right, but every non white deck wouldn't run Swords to Plowshares. The black ritual based combo deck wouldn't run swords. The combo deck wouldn't run STP. The aggro deck might not run it either because of the life gain.

The difference is every deck runs Brainstorm ... even the black ritual decks. Even the G/r aggro deck (Delver makes this even worse).

In fact, in the right deck Show and Tell is more powerful than Black Lotus. You see when Show and Tell was printed creatures were less powerful than spells.

Now you are off in left field and saying strange things.

Legacy is full of broken things. Brainstorm is no exception to this. It doesn't need to be banned though.

Yep. The broken things are mostly on the banned list. Solomoxenvaults, big blue, necro, drains, broken lands, windfall, etc.. Brainstorm is a better, more versatile, more 'broken', more degeneracy enabling card than several cards on the banned list now. Let's get those off of there. Let's shake up the format.

With you argument of things being unbanned: you are right. Mind's Desire, Mind Twist, and Land Tax(probably time limits for this one) are outdated or the format has moved past them.

Earthcraft, Recruiter, etc.

Let's hope so. I hope they look at the list as a whole re-evaluate all the cards before moving to ban anything. Show and Tell or Brainstorm or Sneak Attack.

menace13

06-11-2012, 11:40 PM

That's 9 decks. 8 with Brainstorm.

Wow 8 for 8. It's hilarious that some people argue that the card isn't ban worthy. For those clinging to the Brainstorm-tit as the only reason you shuffle up a deck you better hope for some unbannings to shake things up.

Anything they do unban will ultimately best be utilized along side.....Wait....for.....it.....
.......
Brainstorm.

Esper3k

06-11-2012, 11:57 PM

Just a note about polls, especially internet forum polls:

They're generally horribly inaccurate since it's pretty easy to bias towards a particular answer due to the wording of answers/what choices you offer/etc. but also because you don't actually get the full opinion of the population you're polling, just the people who cared enough to vote on the topic.

feline

06-12-2012, 12:11 AM

Speculation will always continue on what's to ban next, but I wanna look at the current banned list and see what has the potential to come off -or- return to legacy, for that, I'll look at the banned list itself and make some notes:

First are the Ante cards, or cards that have absurd/outrageous requirements, like actual physical interactions, etc, these are the least likely candidates to ever be unbanned:
Ante:
1 Amulet of Quoz
2 Bronze Tablet
3 Contract from Below
4 Darkpact
5 Demonic Attorney
6 Jeweled Bird
7 Rebirth
8 Tempest Efreet
9 Timmerian Fiends
Physical interaction:
10 Chaos Orb
11 Falling Star
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The next least likely cards to ever come off the banned list, are also some of the most famous, and most expensive:
The power 9:
12 Ancestral Recall
13 Black Lotus
14 Mox Emerald
15 Mox Jet
16 Mox Pearl
17 Mox Ruby
18 Mox Sapphire
19 Time Walk
20 Timetwister
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Other unlikely candidates, are cards have been added to the banned list since the start of "modern type 1.5" / legacy, since Sept 2004, when type 1 & type 1.5, or "Vintage" & "Legacy" went from sharing what's "restricted" in vintage is "banned" in legacy, to their own banned/restricted lists independent of eachother. Any card that has been ADDED to the banned list since that time (Sept 2004), is very unlikely to be removed since it is more recent, etc.
Added to banned list since 2004:
21 Imperial Seal (Sept 2005)
22 Flash (June 2007)
23 Shahrazad (Sept 2007)
24 Time Vault (Sept 2008)
25 Mystical Tutor (June 2010)
26 Survival of the Fittest (Dec 2010)
27 Mental Misstep (Sept 2011)
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Of the remaining 34 cards, some are just as unlikely as the cards above, but other's just might be a "possibility":
28 Bazaar of Baghdad (unlikely)
29 Balance (? possibility ? ~One could say that all it really is, is a more powerful pox, the argument against it however, is that it's the ULTIMATE pox)
30 Black Vise (? possibility ? ~One could say it's not fast enough, & it's not broken enough without something to help keep cards in your opponents hands, like trinisphere/chalice of the void/land destruction/howling mine, etc. The argument against it, in the right deck build & setup, it's a lightning bolt every turn coming from not a creature but a harder to answer artifact, and it's a 1 mana investment)
31 Channel (unlikely)
32 Demonic Consultation (unlikely)
33 Demonic Tutor (unlikely)
34 Earthcraft (? possibility ? ~This is another card that has been debated in the past, it could turn the lesser played enchantress deck into a combo setup, go enchantress! the argument against it, is that it would make for another fast combo setup out there, possibly too fast or too easy to enable?)
35 Fastbond (? possibility ? ~What's the most broken thing you could get out of having all your lands in play, one could argue the more lands you play, the less spells you play, and you become weaker against counter magic opponents when they just wait to counter what's important, and just leave you with a few non basic lands with some tricks that the lands themselves provide, while the most broken lands are banned anyway from the format, the argument against it however, is that it's fastbond!)
36 Frantic Search (? possibility ? ~It's essentially just another careful study -at instant speed- that, while basically free if it resolves, has a 3 mana requirement. The argument against it, Reanimator, Solidarity, & High tide are definitely just some of the examples of where this one would be abused)
37 Goblin Recruiter (unlikely)
38 Gush (? possibility ? ~It does require 2 islands for the alternate casting cost, the argument against it, it's blue, its free, it's abuseable card advantage)
39 Hermit Druid (? possibility ?~He doesn't have haste, so not only is it counterable, it's killable, bounceable, etc, the argument against it however, is that once it uses it's ability, your deck will most likely be setup for it, and you will most likely win the game after that.)
40 Land Tax (? possibility ? ~This is one of the more debated ones, it is card advantage but more narrow, & not as absurd as most of the other cards on the banned list, the argument against it however, is that its still some good raw card advantage)
41 Library of Alexandria (unlikely)
42 Mana Crypt (unlikely)
43 Mana Drain (unlikely)
44 Mana Vault (unlikely)
45 Memory Jar (unlikely)
46 Mind Twist (? possibility ? ~One of the more debated ones, out of all the cards on the banned list, this is one of the weaker ones, there is even another version for just 1 more black mana & I didn't even know it existed until recently because noone ever uses it, the argument against it? with enough mana you can still, technically, turn 1 destroy an opponents hand, but you are probably using nearly your entire hand to do so in the process)
47 Mind's Desire (unlikely)
48 Mishra's Workshop (unlikely)
49 Necropotence (unlikely)
50 Oath of Druids (unlikely)
51 Skullclamp (unlikely)
52 Sol Ring (unlikely)
53 Strip Mine (? possibility ? ~The most abusive thing I can think of is crucible of worlds/Life from the loam lockdown, and most of the better tier legacy decks run ton's of non basic's already, the argument against it however is just that, strip mine into play every turn lockdown)
54 Tinker (unlikely)
55 Tolarian Academy (unlikely)
56 Vampiric Tutor (unlikely)
57 Worldgorger Dragon(unlikely)
58 Wheel of Fortune (unlikely)
59 Windfall (unlikely)
60 Yawgmoth's Bargain (unlikely)
61 Yawgmoth's Will (? possibility ? ~past in flames costs 1 more mana to activate, and only hits instants & sorceries, this card costs 1 less and can hit anything, but most of the stuff you'd want would likely be instants and sorceries in the first place. The argument against it, it's just too cheap overall & just too powerful once it resolves, out of all the "possibilities" for arguments that I can make, this card is one of the most least likely of all the possible unbans.)
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In either case, the format is what it is, and it's not likely much will come off the banned list, but for what it's worth, from perspectives that can be argued, for cards that just might get looked at every once in a while, I figured I'd go on the defensive for "some" of these cards, even of some of them listed as a "possibility" are really just as unlikely as the rest of the list, all I know for sure is, I don't expect much to come off the banned list, but with the format ever changing, some of the slower or more narrow cards, just might get lifted in the future >^,^<

~Note: Please don't freak on me about cards I listed as a possibility, I am just making arguments for & against the cards listed as such, I am aware that these cards are ALL on the banned list for a reason, so please don't think I could forget that.

thefringthing

06-12-2012, 12:38 AM

Relevant excerpt from a Pat Chapin article:

What is the solution?

Legacy is actually not in bad shape, of course. There are a ton of decks getting played, and in fact 20 different archetypes appear among these three top 10 lists, as well as over 40 archetypes appearing over the year. No single deck or strategy is dominating, even if most of the top strategies are fueled by Brainstorm and Force of Will. Something needs to change, but the only cards truly ban-worthy on paper are Brainstorm and Force of Will, both of which continue to get the free pass until compelling evidence is presented to argue otherwise. Brainstorm is definitely on the watch list, despite its untouchable status. Obviously, just about everyone would jump to throw Snapcaster Mage under the bus before it ever came to that, but there is another way.

Time to unban something!

The Legacy banned list features 60 cards, which is a nice round number, but a high one. Maybe the solution to loosening blue's iron grip on the format is to unban something that promotes non-blue decks. Let's take a quick look at the top candidates:

Demonic Consultation
Demonic Consultation is an extremely powerful tutor and can lead to blisteringly fast combo decks, generally based around Tendrils of Agony and rituals. This is potentially troublesome if it actually forces more people to play Force of Will. Another potentially big Demonic Consultation-based strategy is that of aggro-control. Consult has often been excellent in decks like CounterSliver. Would it just help Brainstorm decks?

Although Consult would appear in some Brainstorm decks, as well as some fast combo decks, you have to remember the status quo is 75% blue. Even if half the Consult decks are blue, they could easily lower the total number of Brainstorms and Force of Wills getting played. Consult provides an extremely powerful tool for Junk, a deck that isn't far from being able to compete. Aggro-Loam might use it, and perhaps some sort of B/x aggro deck would emerge. Some Belcher or other fast non-blue combo decks may use it as well.

Why was it banned? It is an extremely powerful tutor, restricted even in Vintage (though to be fair, it is definitely worth considering unrestricting it in Vintage this year). Does it need to stay banned? Maybe not. It does have a steep drawback; it is skill-testing; it goes in a variety of decks; it would actually be good; and it can be fun.

Verdict: Worth strongly considering

Mind Twist
One of the most infamous cards in the game's history, Mind Twist was one of the few cards ever banned in Vintage. Times have changed however, and now it is not only unbanned but unrestricted. Maybe it is time to do the same in Legacy? After all, other than Dark Ritual, what good ways are there to Mind Twist? Using traditional rituals leads to card parity. Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and various Moxes are good, but how fast are you really going to be able to Mind Twist anyway? It's not like there is any shortage of free countermagic, and people could always use Misdirection (though admittedly, that is a blue card).

One problem with Mind Twist is that it may not be that good, but if it is, it can get unfun pretty fast. Would Junk use Mind Twist? Would Mind Twist be used exclusively in dedicated "Mind Twist decks?" Would that even be good? That can't possibly be nearly as unfair as Belcher, right? Besides, people could use anti-discard cards if they wanted, as there are plenty of them.

Verdict: Safe, but decent chance that it isn't even that good.

Land Tax
Land Tax is probably the card most requested to be unbanned by Legacy players. Is it finally time? In its favor, it is an extremely powerful card for quite a number of non-blue decks (even if it does go in some blue decks). It promotes basic land usage; it is skill-testing; it is interesting to build around; and the format is so powerful now, it is not like it is even that brutal when it works.

The problems? First of all, tournament organizers have it out for this card. It involves tons of shuffling, increased cheating, and can drag games to a crawl. It is also very powerful in a way that gets not healthy really fast.

I sympathize with the TOs who want their events to run at a reasonable pace and, out of respect for Land Tax's power, have argued against unbanning it on multiple occasions. That said, I think the time has come to give Land Tax a fair examination. Fetchlands, Brainstorming, Jace, Tops, and more leave no shortage of these types of effects in the format. I actually think Land Tax might contribute enough to the format to make up for the mild strain it puts on things. Additionally, the format has gotten so strong, it is actually reasonable to think Land Tax could exist without toppling things. Besides, if nothing else, it can throw a bone to the loyal fans who have been fighting for it for so many years. Additionally, it's not like it couldn't get banned again, if needed. I am not convinced it is the most fun card to unban, but if Consult isn't safe, Land Tax should be considered (Mind Twist is probably a gimme).

Verdict: Probably safe, but the strain it puts on tournament play makes it a longer shot. Worth strongly considering.

Worldgorger Dragon
Another random combo card that isn't actually any better than the other cards that are legal. Even with Entomb legal, it is not clear that this is even better than Reanimator targets like Iona and Jin Gitaxias. Even if it was, graveyard hate exists and is easy. Unfortunately, Worldgorger Dragon decks tend to be blue fast combo decks.

Verdict: Safe, but doesn't do what we are trying to do at all. Should be taken off at some point on principle, but we can do better if we only get to unban one card.

What do you think? Can any of these cards be unbanned? If you could unban one, which would it be? Or do you think Snapcaster Mage or Brainstorm needs to be banned? Legacy is alive and well, so it is not an absolute must that something be changed in March (at least not yet), but the way things are going, I have a suspicion a shake-up is coming...

Patrick Chapin
"The Innovator"

caiomarcos

06-12-2012, 12:39 AM

big list

That was a good quick analysis, but you really underestimated Yawgmoth's Will and Strip Mine.

Like many, I would like to see mass unbanings, not more banned cards.

Tacosnape

06-12-2012, 01:10 AM

This thread really makes me remember why I quit posting here the first time. This has gone from intelligent discussion about the power levels of Show and Tell and the relevant format power levels to people suggesting unbannings of cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Strip Mine, Gush, Hermit Druid, and Demonic Consultation. The magic community has lost their minds.

The reality of the situation is that most likely nothing's going to change. Maybe Brainstorm'll get banned, but most likely not - It's been this powerful for this long. Maybe Show and Tell will get banned, but most likely not. Wizards has a fascination with stupidly huge creatures winning games. Nothing else is a realistic candidate for banning. And maybe some strong-but-not-broken cards would get unbanned, like Land Tax, Mind Twist, or Earthcraft, but probably not. Tax would fit too well in Miracles and slow games down, which Wizards hates, and Wizards has an unnatural fear of random discard and squirrels being competitive.

So chances are nothing's going to change.

EDIT: Also, I didn't read this article, but if Pat Chapin suggests unbanning Demonic Consultation, he understands nothing about Legacy or Magic whatsoever. Demonic Consultation is the single strongest tutor card ever printed, ever, period. One mana, for an instant, to get a combo piece in your hand is just astronomically dumb. The drawback just isn't one - Just set up decks that tutor for 4 of's, and you'll lose about 1 game from exiling them all for every 300 you'd lose for not having Demonic Consultation.

Esper3k

06-12-2012, 01:29 AM

EDIT: Also, I didn't read this article, but if Pat Chapin suggests unbanning Demonic Consultation, he understands nothing about Legacy or Magic whatsoever. Demonic Consultation is the single strongest tutor card ever printed, ever, period. One mana, for an instant, to get a combo piece in your hand is just astronomically dumb. The drawback just isn't one - Just set up decks that tutor for 4 of's, and you'll lose about 1 game from exiling them all for every 300 you'd lose for not having Demonic Consultation.

Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor would like to have a word with you :)

I do agree that unbanning Demonic Consultation would be insane though.

Lejay

06-12-2012, 01:33 AM

Tacosnape

06-12-2012, 01:37 AM

Vampiric and demonic are clearly weaker. I don't how you get to that conclusion. One is a two mana sorcery and the other is card disadvantage. When your deck is built properly demonic's drawback is irrelevant probably 98% of the time.

This. You can't even remotely argue Vampiric in here - One gets you the card on top of your library, one gets you the card in your hand. MAYBE you can pitch Demonic here - 2 mana at Sorcery Speed, but no drawback, but 1 at Instant tops all in my book.

EDIT: I did just notice Demonic Consultation isn't banned in Commander. The idea of this is absolutely hilarious.

Esper3k

06-12-2012, 02:00 AM

Vampiric and Demonic Tutors both free up a lot more deck space though. Playing Consultation requires you to play your targets as 4-ofs whereas the other two lets you play what you're tutoring for as a 1-of.

There's a reason why both Vampiric and Demonic Tutors are the first tutors Vintage decks go for as opposed to Consultation.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

06-12-2012, 02:18 AM

Koby

06-12-2012, 03:10 AM

Sure, let's go ahead and unban Demonic Consultation. It's like living the Trix dream all over again. Might even make Firestorm good again too.

Vacrix

06-12-2012, 03:29 AM

This has gone from intelligent discussion about the power levels of Show and Tell and the relevant format power levels to people suggesting unbannings of cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Strip Mine, Gush, Hermit Druid, and Demonic Consultation. The magic community has lost their minds.
I don't think the magic community has lost their minds, there are just a lot of stupid people that haven't actually played with these cards that just shit words out of their mouths and call it logic.

For example, people keep telling me with a gut reaction that Mind's Desire is far too powerful to get unbanned... but they haven't actually tried to test it against the current format or they'd know how outclassed it is by Ad Nauseam in Drit combo and TS in High Tide.

EDIT:
Hard to believe Mr. Chapin would consider unbanning Demonic Consultation but honestly I don't know him or read his shit. Is he familiar with Legacy Storm combo because even if they banned LED, storm players would find a way to make it completely busted.

Arianrhod

06-12-2012, 07:14 AM

I remember that article, and it was a while ago. Certainly well before the rise of Thresh/Maverick/Stoneblade, and whole eons before Sneak/Show vs Thresh. Trying to use his opinions at the time and apply them to the current meta, which is now filled with cards that didn't exist (Griselbrand, Delver, Snapcaster, at the very least) which have in turn warped/created decks that didn't exist at the time, is just purely asinine. The meta is completely different on almost every level than when he wrote that.

I think Vacrix is correct, though -- I wonder how many people in here have actually played vintage seriously at any point, because if you don't play with the cards, all you're operating on is theory...and most people suck at theory.

thefringthing

06-12-2012, 07:30 AM

Trying to use his opinions at the time and apply them to the current meta, which is now filled with cards that didn't exist (Griselbrand, Delver, Snapcaster, at the very least) which have in turn warped/created decks that didn't exist at the time, is just purely asinine. The meta is completely different on almost every level than when he wrote that.Not so good at reading comprehension, eh?

Gheizen64

06-12-2012, 08:30 AM

Chapin seriously considering consultation? How long has he been playing this game? The tutor is easily the best tutor by far in a format without restricted cards. If he was around at the time of Ice Age he should remember that.
Vampiric is way more considerable, and that's also too good when you consider you'd make decks like SnT, Reanimator and Doomdsday at least 34.2% better.

AriLax

06-12-2012, 08:36 AM

emidln

06-12-2012, 08:59 AM

I honestly don't even think Storm would be the best Consult deck. No idea what would be, but all I know is you would need Burning Wish if you played it and that deck wouldn't be much better than current TES.

It would probably be something stupid and obnoxious like Hive Mind.

Even in a developed metagame (full of decks packing Force of Wills, Flusterstorms, and quick combo kills of their own via High Tide/Reanimator/Hive Mind), the black belcher list on stormboards with 4 Consult is something I dream about. You don't want this deck in your metagame:

4 Demonic Consultation
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Diabolic Intent/Infernal Tutor/Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

Piceli89

06-12-2012, 09:12 AM

Even in a developed metagame (full of decks packing Force of Wills, Flusterstorms, and quick combo kills of their own via High Tide/Reanimator/Hive Mind), the black belcher list on stormboards with 4 Consult is something I dream about. You don't want this deck in your metagame:

4 Demonic Consultation
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Diabolic Intent/Infernal Tutor/Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Shield Sphere
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

I wouldn't if it had an actual way to kill me.

leegoo

06-12-2012, 09:32 AM

ban mystical tutor
unban demonic consultation

...
....

right.

Tutors that let you find kill conditions, mana, or protection (for one mana without card disadvantage and at instant speed no less) are not safe.

nedleeds

06-12-2012, 10:31 AM

I leave for a day and people are talking about unbanning instant one mana demonic tutor .... :really:

emidln

06-12-2012, 10:39 AM

I wouldn't if it had an actual way to kill me.

So Consult->AdN, draw a billion cards, belch you (even if I have less than 20 cards left mind you, I still therapy the fuck out of you then do it again next turn).

Star|Scream

06-12-2012, 10:45 AM

So Consult->AdN, draw a billion cards, belch you (even if I have less than 20 cards left mind you, I still therapy the fuck out of you then do it again next turn).

Who says the English language is deteriorating?

Piceli89

06-12-2012, 10:55 AM

So Consult->AdN, draw a billion cards, belch you (even if I have less than 20 cards left mind you, I still therapy the fuck out of you then do it again next turn).

Don't take it that serious, and check your list twice.
EDIT: Now there is a win-con. What i was referring to.

thefringthing

06-12-2012, 11:00 AM

I'd like to note that I don't necessarily endorse Chapin's conclusions from that article. It just seemed like relevant material for discussion, and he's a pretty bright guy.

I'd love for Demonic Consultation to be unbanned in the same way that I'd love for Mind's Desire or Mystical Tutor to be unbanned. I just want to play it in a storm deck with little regard for whether it's actually good for diversifying the format at all.

If I were in charge of the decision, I'd ban Show and Tell and unban Land Tax.

If something really drastic happened and Brainstorm was banned, I'd probably just jam four Preordains in my deck and put my Brainstorms away in a binder beside my Mystical Tutors. I'd still love Legacy and I'd still play it on a weekly basis. I'd still travel to Legacy GPs.

nedleeds

06-12-2012, 11:10 AM

Lab Maniac would love some Demonic Consultation ... for Bone Flute

Hanni

06-12-2012, 11:44 AM

Lab Maniac, Doomsday, Spoils of the Vault, and Demonic Consultation sounds fun.

rufus

06-12-2012, 12:04 PM

Lab Maniac, Doomsday, Spoils of the Vault, and Demonic Consultation sounds fun.

Spoils of the Vault isn't so great if you want to exile your entire library...
Demonic Consultation for Mirror of Fate stuff could be more interesting, but it doesn't have to be a combo deck at all. Demonic Consultation->Force of Will/Pact of Negation is pretty stupid too.

Pop quiz: Which of these cards is stronger?
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor

Shawon

06-12-2012, 12:04 PM

rufus

06-12-2012, 12:14 PM

How would any of you rank the 3 banned black tutors (excluding Imperial Seal) in terms of power level?
...

Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Demonic Consultation

Vampiric is probably the safest, Consultation is the most dangerous. None of them are unban material.

DragoFireheart

06-12-2012, 01:10 PM

How would any of you rank the 3 banned black tutors (excluding Imperial Seal) in terms of power level?

Or rather, if you had to unban one of these tutors, which one would you feel safest to unban?

Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Demonic Consultation

- Trick question.

The answer is none and if you think otherwise you're a moron.

EDIT: Wait wait! The answer is Tinker! Lets unban Tinker!

Hanni

06-12-2012, 01:25 PM

If they ban SNT, I'd like to see Vampiric come off to allow combo to remain a pillar of the metagame. Nothing but aggro decks gets old after a while.

dsck

06-12-2012, 01:26 PM

If they ban SNT, I'd like to see Vampiric come off to allow combo to remain a pillar of the metagame. Nothing but aggro decks gets old after a while.

Yeah, they banned mystical and now unban vampiric :rolleyes:

Hanni

06-12-2012, 01:34 PM

nedleeds

06-12-2012, 02:24 PM

How would any of you rank the 3 banned black tutors (excluding Imperial Seal) in terms of power level?

Or rather, if you had to unban one of these tutors, which one would you feel safest to unban?

Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Demonic Consultation

In an environment with 4 x LED I'd say Consult, DT then Vamp. None will ever be unbanned in Legacy.

Solar Ice

06-12-2012, 02:37 PM

I can not see a reason to put Demonic before Vampiric in terms of safety to unban. Ever.
LED or no LED.

None will (or should) ever see the light of day in Legacy, that much is for sure.

Lord_Mcdonalds

06-12-2012, 02:47 PM

Yeah, they banned mystical and now unban vampiric :rolleyes:

Yes, next they'll ban past in flames and unban Yawg's win...../sarcasm

Intet's Attendant

06-12-2012, 05:09 PM

majikal

06-12-2012, 05:15 PM

Consultation is a ridiculous card that should never see the light of day. For every person using it to innocently tutor up removal or threats in their aggrocontrol deck, there will be twenty people using it to end the world.

dontbiteitholmes

06-12-2012, 05:41 PM

I think Chapin is trolling about Consultation.

If you really want a tutor, Mystical Tutor is the safest to unban, and even it is probably overpowered in legacy without also banning something like LED or Show and Tell.

It's a shame they completely whiffed on the reason for why Mystical was banned. They will never live that down.

I agreed with the banning but obviously there was no unspoken rule about playing M. Tutor in tournaments it's just that it still wasn't a good idea when blue was so popular and the time in America.

What they should have said was
"Mystical tutor does everything in the decks it goes in at instant speed and at EOT.
It gets the combo piece when it's time to go off.
It gets your 1x utility spell when you need it
It gets rituals when you need accell to win next turn.
It gets disruption when you need to clear the way.
and it allows the deck to run multiple silver bullets in the SB as 1xs and have access to 5x of them postboard. This allows the deck to not only have extremely flexible sideboard space as they can run answers to everything and still have multiple slots remaining for general SB strats, it also allows them to have maximum effect post board while only siding out a minimum number of cards.

On their own none of these effects are gamebreaking. In combination we feel they are too strong."

That should have been the official response, not "we won a handful of games vs. terrible legacy players = ban."

DrJones

06-12-2012, 07:44 PM

It would have sufficed to say "It's better than vampiric tutor in the decks that run it".

dontbiteitholmes

06-12-2012, 11:37 PM

It would have sufficed to say "It's better than vampiric tutor in the decks that run it".

Except that it's not.

That 2 life swing is totes worth it to be able to get LED in ANT or fatty if you have Careful Study + Reanimation in Reanimator. Not to mention you could stick a 1x Pithing Needle in Reanimator SB to nullify Crypt/Relic/Fae Macabre or cram a couple Tombstalkers in your ANT sideboard and go transformational while still having the combo post board. Still too strong though. If they reprinted M. Tutor as a Sorc it would be fine. Hell if Imperial Seal wasn't an $800 card it would be borderline unbannable (far safer than any other banned list tutor).

ESG

06-12-2012, 11:55 PM

If they ban SNT, I'd like to see Vampiric come off to allow combo to remain a pillar of the metagame. Nothing but aggro decks gets old after a while.

Are you transmitting from the past, dude? I see a lot of tumbleweeds in Aggro Town. Seems it was annihilated.

Vacrix

06-13-2012, 01:45 AM

Yup. Card disadvantage tutors are typically used in combo decks. The added versatility of Vampiric is compensated by the lifeloss (bad with Ad Nauseam) and the fact that it's not blue to pitch to FoW. Simply put, the gentlemans agreement excuse to ban MT was bullshit, and if they ban SNT, I'd like to see VT come off the list. I'm oldschool... I like combo being a pillar of the metagame.
I don't think combo is the only deck that would play it though. Consider that even if they ban SnT, Reanimator can still abuse Vampiric like they did Mystical Tutor. It would probably push Reanimator into the top DTB.

I'm sure other decks would abuse it as well. Even so, storm combo was already a little ridiculous with Mystical Tutor. I'm sure that Doomsday variants would also contend for DTB or at least one of the top decks in the format given that too few people play them for them to be DTB.

Tao

06-13-2012, 06:44 AM

Gheizen64

06-13-2012, 08:09 AM

Vamp is a million times better than Mystical. In combo decks and everywhere else. I'd put 3-4 Vampirics Tutors in Nic Fit. Topdecking the perfect card is worth the card disadvantage and 2 life in most matchups.

In AnT and in reanimator i'd say vamp is probably comparable to mystical. Vamp is way better in decks like Nic Fit, but i don't think that would be a problem.

Tao

06-13-2012, 09:00 AM

In Reanimator it would be similar I think. But in ANT Vampiric Tutor is probably far better. Getting LED is huge.

Gheizen64

06-13-2012, 09:03 AM

In Reanimator it would be similar I think. But in ANT Vampiric Tutor is probably far better. Getting LED is huge.

I've got little experience with that deck so you're probably right.

Fossil4182

06-13-2012, 12:18 PM

Regarding the banning of Brainstorm, doesn't banning Brainstorm make combo that much more powerful in Legacy?

I'm not contending that Brainstorm isn't powerful in combo decks, but it would seem that combo decks can operate much in the same manner as the do now while control and tempo decks loose a lot when they no longer have access to Brainstorm; especially in their ability to combat combo decks. Wizards has used this rational before in June of 2008 when it banned Brainstorm, but also banned Ponder in Vintage. The rational Wizard's used was that banning Brainstorm without banning Ponder gave combo decks too much of an edge over control archetypes.

I fear that while Brainstorm may cause a higher number of control and tempo decks to be prevalent, the absences of Brainstorm would only result in a boom of combo decks. I doubt Wizard's bans Brainstorm if only because it would cause an increase in combo (the one archetype they actively try to discourage: see my signature). Additionally, if the followed tradition and banned Ponder, then Legacy becomes more like Modern expect with a much more expensive mana base.

Mr Miagi

06-13-2012, 01:17 PM

Are we on the ban the brainstorm wagon again? Are you serious!?

Final Ritual

06-13-2012, 01:32 PM

When brainstorm was restricted it basically killed type 1. Combo decks don't need brainstorm to operate. Meanwhile control decks need the flexibility brainstorm offers them to flush away dead cards. I haven't touched any of my vintage cards since they restricted brainstorm and gush was inrestricted.

Also if they do ban brainstorm, the dci had better ban a lot of combo enablers like LED and show and tell.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

06-13-2012, 01:47 PM

Drew Levin's convinced they'll ban Ponder.

Awaclus

06-13-2012, 01:47 PM

To those who were discussing the unbanning of Vampiric Tutor: why not discuss unbanning Imperial Seal instead? It's still probably too powerful, but at least it's way safer than Vampiric.

Koby

06-13-2012, 01:52 PM

Drew Levin's convinced they'll ban Ponder.

In Standard anyway. What about Legacy?

jrw1985

06-13-2012, 02:01 PM

Brainstorm is still fine and makes the game interesting.
The format has adjusted to Delver.
Show and Tell still gives your opponent a free shot at beating it.

If any new card is going to be on the blunt-end of the BanHammer it's going to be Grisselbrand.
Why do I think it will be Grizz? Because of...

Ancestral Recall
Bazaar of Baghdad
Frantic Search
Gush
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Memory Jar
Mind's Desire
Necropotence
Skullclamp
Timetwister
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Whaaaaa? Degenerate card-drawing strategies tend to get banned in Legacy?

Grizz's days are numbered. We all see the writing on the wall.

Gheizen64

06-13-2012, 02:02 PM

To those who were discussing the unbanning of Vampiric Tutor: why not discuss unbanning Imperial Seal instead? It's still probably too powerful, but at least it's way safer than Vampiric.

300$ say no.

leegoo

06-13-2012, 02:43 PM

300$ say no.

where are you finding seals for $300? ;)

Ignithas_

06-13-2012, 03:12 PM

300$ say no.
Candelabra says yes.

Brainstorm is still fine and makes the game interesting.
The format has adjusted to Delver.
Show and Tell still gives your opponent a free shot at beating it.

If any new card is going to be on the blunt-end of the BanHammer it's going to be Grisselbrand.
Why do I think it will be Grizz? Because of...

Ancestral Recall
Bazaar of Baghdad
Frantic Search
Gush
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Memory Jar
Mind's Desire
Necropotence
Skullclamp
Timetwister
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Whaaaaa? Degenerate card-drawing strategies tend to get banned in Legacy?

Grizz's days are numbered. We all see the writing on the wall.
Ad Neuseam says no.

dontbiteitholmes

06-13-2012, 03:12 PM

where are you finding seals for $300? ;)

If you can actually get Seals for $300 I will buy all of them.

Candelabra says yes.

Ad Neuseam says no.

First off Candelabras are under $200 unless they are super mint condition.

Seal is more like $450-700 as a restricted card in Vintage.

If Seal was unbanned it would probably be a $1000 card unless they reprinted it.

So Seal says no.

Koby

06-13-2012, 03:14 PM

Ignithas_

06-13-2012, 03:18 PM

If you can actually get Seals for $300 I will buy all of them.

First off Candelabras are under $200 unless they are super mint condition.

Seal is more like $450-700 as a restricted card in Vintage.

If Seal was unbanned it would probably be a $1000 card unless they reprinted it.

So Seal says no.
I only wanted to tell him, that costing much moneyisn't a reason for a card to be banned when it's not too powerfull. That Seal would cost 1000 $ if it would be unbanned is probably right.

nedleeds

06-13-2012, 03:50 PM

Imperial Seal isn't even on the reserved list. WotC should throw it in the next commander deck.

nedleeds

06-13-2012, 03:54 PM

When brainstorm was restricted it basically killed type 1.

Proxies killed type 1. The reserved list killed type 1. Finally the euro being worth 2 dollars a few years ago was the nail in the coffin. Go check some european turn outs for vintage.

Combo decks don't need brainstorm to operate.

Maybe some pile like belcher. Brainstorm fuels all the storm decks, doomsday and show and tell combo. No way any of those decks can navigate a 7-10 round event with any kind of consistency without brainstorm, if the control and aggro decks still have brainstorm.

I haven't touched any of my vintage cards since they restricted brainstorm and gush was inrestricted.

So?

Also if they do ban brainstorm, the dci had better ban a lot of combo enablers like LED and show and tell.

Good luck crafting a hand without brainstorm. Good luck no losing to a well played Thoughtseize without brainstorm.

Brainstorm is a crutch for all the decks you talk about, control, combo and aggro. It makes the format too easy.

PunkRocker1134

06-13-2012, 04:08 PM

Maybe some pile like belcher. Brainstorm fuels all the storm decks, doomsday and show and tell combo. No way any of those decks can navigate a 7-10 round event with any kind of consistency without brainstorm, if the control and aggro decks still have brainstorm.

Dredge?

dontbiteitholmes

06-13-2012, 04:08 PM

Imperial Seal isn't even on the reserved list. WotC should throw it in the next commander deck.

It should be a functional reprint.

Koby

06-13-2012, 04:20 PM

It should be a functional reprint.

Aye, I recommend Vampiric Consultation, do keep with the theme for black tutors.

Awaclus

06-13-2012, 04:21 PM

300$ say no.
The DCI don't care about the prices of the cards.

jrw1985

06-13-2012, 05:29 PM

Ad Neuseam says no.

Umm... Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain say Yes? Those cards are much more similar in function to Griz than Ad Nauseum. Permanents. Pay 1 life: Draw 1 card. That's Griz, only it's arguable that Griz is EASIER to get into play than Yawgmoth's Bargain ever was (Reanimate spells + Sneak Attack vs Academy Rector?)

caiomarcos

06-13-2012, 05:38 PM

Umm... Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain say Yes? Those cards are much more similar in function to Griz than Ad Nauseum. Permanents. Pay 1 life: Draw 1 card. That's Griz, only it's arguable that Griz is EASIER to get into play than Yawgmoth's Bargain ever was (Reanimate spells + Sneak Attack vs Academy Rector?)

Replenish also puts bargain into play. Just sayin'...

dontbiteitholmes

06-13-2012, 06:15 PM

The DCI don't care about the prices of the cards.

For the most part I would agree, but there is no way they would unban a card knowing it would be $1000. They would either reprint it or leave it banned.

caiomarcos

06-13-2012, 06:53 PM

For the most part I would agree, but there is no way they would unban a card knowing it would be $1000. They would either reprint it or leave it banned.

I believe that a $1000 card being unbanned would make no difference for 95% of legacy players.
Not trying to make a counterpoint, just adding some more opinion.

I am the brainwasher

06-13-2012, 07:15 PM

Replenish also puts bargain into play. Just sayin'...

...and 1 or 2 mana isn't 4 mana. Just sayin'...

http://drbristol.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/count-von-count.jpg

caiomarcos

06-13-2012, 07:19 PM

...and 1 or 2 mana isn't 4 mana. Just sayin'...

http://drbristol.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/count-von-count.jpg

It seems that I didn't sound like I wanted. I was REALLY just saying that there are other ways to cheat Bargain in play.

Gheizen64

06-13-2012, 07:28 PM

It seems that I didn't sound like I wanted. I was REALLY just saying that there are other ways to cheat Bargain in play.

I think the best way to cheat bargain are just accellerating into it with rituals or SnT. With rituals it's a spell that is comparable to Ad Nauseam that allow you to play Forces and 4 copies of the engine but cost 1 more and isn't instant (and has some extra vulnerability, like Revoker). With SnT it's Griselbrand 5-8.

Lord Seth

06-13-2012, 07:53 PM

Out of curiosity, is Imperial Seal the most expensive card not on the Reserved List or is there something else? The only competitor that springs to mind is Tarmogoyf, and that's a far cry from Imperial Seal's price tag.

TraxDaMax

06-13-2012, 08:18 PM

This format will be hella boring without brainstorm lol. I think grisselmaister is off to bed, even though I bought a playset yesterday. I'll take the gamble.

wolfstorm

06-13-2012, 08:33 PM

dontbiteitholmes

06-13-2012, 08:51 PM

I believe that a $1000 card being unbanned would make no difference for 95% of legacy players.
Not trying to make a counterpoint, just adding some more opinion.

I believe you might be off on your %. People would be very not happy if one of the best tutors in the format was $1000. A playset would cost more than a playset of power.

Out of curiosity, is Imperial Seal the most expensive card not on the Reserved List or is there something else? The only competitor that springs to mind is Tarmogoyf, and that's a far cry from Imperial Seal's price tag.

Yes, by a longshot, unless you are counting technicalities (like Summer edition Serendib Efreet is technically not on the reserved list).

To put it in perspective Seal is worth more than every piece of unlimited power except Lotus.

I think 2nd place might me Imperial Recruiter and 3rd maybe Grim Tutor.

sroncor1

06-13-2012, 08:53 PM

Imperial recruiter, and Grim Tutor are both worth more than Mana Drain and far rarer. They are probably the next two I would think.

dontbiteitholmes

06-13-2012, 09:00 PM

Imperial recruiter, and Grim Tutor are both worth more than Mana Drain and far rarer. They are probably the next two I would think.

LOL you added this as I edited my post. Great minds think alike.

Julian23

06-13-2012, 09:13 PM

I wonder how far Scavenging Ooze is gonna climb before it gets reprinted. It's a really cool and flavorful cards that could fit into a lot of sets.

Lord Seth

06-13-2012, 09:15 PM

To put it in perspective Seal is worth more than every piece of unlimited power except Lotus.Eh? I looked at several price places (e.g. findmagiccards.com, several online stores) and unless I missed something, all of them had only Timetwister Unlimited as costing less.

While admittedly it is a bit of an accomplishment to be worth more than any of the Power 9 (even in Unlimited form), I don't think it's accurate to say only Black Lotus is worth more.

Julian23

06-13-2012, 09:30 PM

Checking magiccardsmarket.eu it's definitely gonna cost you more than any of the Moxen. Also slightly more than blue Power. Which leaves us with Lotus as the only contestant.

However, it's really hard to compare since all available Imperial Seal are NM/Mint. Still, it was about as "cheap" as the NM Time Walk, but more expensive than the NM Ancestral Recall. Compared to Ex versions, Imperial Seal wins out against the Power8.

sroncor1

06-13-2012, 10:51 PM

I think the variability with price of Imperial Seal is in language. 350 or so good for foreign but English ones can easily go for around 700 depending on condition.

edgarps22

06-13-2012, 11:30 PM

Are people really arguing that Grisel is easier to get in play than Bargain??? Did I wake up in some Bizarro land? You can HARD CAST Bargain .... I play vintage sometimes and I never EVER have to worry about cheating it into play, one or two lands, plus a ritual or two, BAM it is in play with Force backup and you have now lost the game. Last I checked Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual still exist and are VERY good at generating 6 mana .... Grisel is NOT Bargain, it is close, but 7 life for 7 cards is honestly not as powerful, though comparable, to 1 life per card at instant speed. I will say it is on the cusp of being on the watch list, but since it is still relatively new, it shouldn't be banned until we as players and deck builders have a chance to try and adjust.

If you want to compare it to Ad Nauseum, then stop right there, Ad Nauseum is worse by all accounts. You can randomly just variance yourself to death with Ad Nauseum, you almost never ever do that with Bargain. With Bargain in play I can run 3 copies of Tendrils in the maindeck, ramp up a bit, Force your countermagic, and pact it, then hit you with a mini tendrils, draw that many cards again and nuke you with a second Tendrils all in the same turn all the while ignoring CMC on your cards because it is 1 life per card not CMC = life lost (this is a LOT less restrictive in deckbuilding allowing you to run Force of Will without fear.) Ad Nauseum can't do this, it has to get all the right pieces immediately, if it stumbles, it is over (which admittedly it does not happen very often, but it happens a LOT more often than Bargain self destruciton.)

None of the black tutors can come off the list, Mystical can, because it was bullshit that it went on it in the first place. Minor mill strategies or cards like Predict just simply get better and see play again. yes it might also fuel a few more combo lists, but it can also help the aggro control decks like it used to, which can in turn help keep combo in check.

dontbiteitholmes

06-14-2012, 12:42 AM

Eh? I looked at several price places (e.g. findmagiccards.com, several online stores) and unless I missed something, all of them had only Timetwister Unlimited as costing less.

While admittedly it is a bit of an accomplishment to be worth more than any of the Power 9 (even in Unlimited form), I don't think it's accurate to say only Black Lotus is worth more.

You realize the prices listed on magic sites only count if they have at least one of the cards in stock right? On findmagiccards.com I saw pretty much no power for sale, but the max store buy price for Mox Sapphire was almost $100 less than they were paying for Imperial Seal.

Checked a couple other online pricing outlets and yeah, when someone is trying to sell a HP Mox Sapphire for over $800 they don't count.

On Ebay an English Seal starts around $550 minimum.

Nizmox

06-14-2012, 07:12 AM

First of all, at the time of MT's ban, there wasn't anything wrong with MT in the format.

I'm in agreement with you that Mystical Tutor should not have been banned and I agree that Brainstorm should not be banned.

But on the Show and Tell arguement i would love to see it banned. Although I believe it is an overpowered card that's not why i think it deserves the ban hammer. I just find it a 'dumb' card in general (poorly designed that is). Any card that allows you to put into play a permanent for 3 mana irrespective of that permanents cost is just stupid (imo). Costs exist for a reason, and that is to make powerful cards harder to play. Sure you could argue that reanimator (entomb / exhume) and other decks that cheat cards into play do the same thing, but at least they're not one card combos where your only out is to counter. I just think Show and Tell is a bullshit card that the game would be better off without, although i'm sure plenty will disagree with me on this one!

feline

06-14-2012, 07:42 AM

I am hoping they unban something -vs- banning more stuff, I don't think griselbrand is a fur sure to get axed, it still isn't putting up the numbers RUG has been, though one could argue they might hit both so, who knows! if top 8's becoming nothing but griselbrand though, then I guess we can see where its going, but that hasn't even happened yet, I think so far there's only been 1 top 8 with 3 show & tell griselbrands, where as rug has multiple top 8 showings more regularly, and I don't think they're at the position of hitting something in RUG yet, but I could be wrong there too. >^,^<

rufus

06-14-2012, 11:24 AM

... at least they're not one card combos where your only out is to counter. ...

Show and Tell is not a 1-card combo since you need to have it, and a win-con card in hand. In terms of power 'Show and Brand' seems like it's between Flash/Hulk and Aluren, that is to say, it looks like borderline ban material.

caiomarcos

06-14-2012, 11:41 AM

Show and Tell is not a 1-card combo since you need to have it, and a win-con card in hand. In terms of power 'Show and Brand' seems like it's between Flash/Hulk and Aluren, that is to say, it looks like borderline ban material.

More like:

Flash-----------------Show and Tell---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Aluren

Star|Scream

06-14-2012, 12:11 PM

Show and Tell is not a 1-card combo since you need to have it, and a win-con card in hand. In terms of power 'Show and Brand' seems like it's between Flash/Hulk and Aluren, that is to say, it looks like borderline ban material.

I think it's semantics at this point, but calling show and tell a 2 card combo is misleading. 2 card combos usually have to have a permanent in play (painter/grindstone - helm/leyline - hexmage/depths) AND the 2nd spell has to resolve.

Maybe a 1.5 card combo?

rxavage

06-14-2012, 12:17 PM

I'm in agreement with you that Mystical Tutor should not have been banned and I agree that Brainstorm should not be banned.

But on the Show and Tell arguement i would love to see it banned. Although I believe it is an overpowered card that's not why i think it deserves the ban hammer. I just find it a 'dumb' card in general (poorly designed that is). Any card that allows you to put into play a permanent for 3 mana irrespective of that permanents cost is just stupid (imo). Costs exist for a reason, and that is to make powerful cards harder to play. Sure you could argue that reanimator (entomb / exhume) and other decks that cheat cards into play do the same thing, but at least they're not one card combos where your only out is to counter. I just think Show and Tell is a bullshit card that the game would be better off without, although i'm sure plenty will disagree with me on this one!

Would you say dumb players lose to dumb cards?

joemauer

06-14-2012, 12:29 PM

Would you say dumb players lose to dumb cards?

It is actually the opposite. Dumb cards let dumb players win.

Awaclus

06-14-2012, 12:46 PM

It is actually the opposite. Dumb cards let dumb players win.
More like, dumb cards let dumb players think they can win, but the dumb players end up losing anyway.

millerd33

06-14-2012, 01:19 PM

More like, dumb cards let dumb players think they can win, but the dumb players end up losing anyway.

I resemble that remark.

DragoFireheart

06-14-2012, 01:31 PM

I resemble that remark.

Are you calling yourself a dumb player?

Snap_Keep

06-14-2012, 01:34 PM

Do you even have to ask?

DragoFireheart

06-14-2012, 01:38 PM

Do you even have to ask?

I always have to ask. I'm that guy.

millerd33

06-14-2012, 01:40 PM

I always have to ask. I'm that guy.

I'm about as bad as they come. Got top 8 at my LSG last Sat with... you guessed it... Sneak N Show.

I seem to be the only person that can't beat Rug or Maverick with the deck.

(lost to Rug and Maverick in the swiss and rug in round 1 of the top 8)

DragoFireheart

06-14-2012, 01:43 PM

I'm about as bad as they come. Got top 8 at my LSG last Sat with... you guessed it... Sneak N Show.

I seem to be the only person that can't beat Rug or Maverick with the deck.

(lost to Rug and Maverick in the swiss and rug in round 1 of the top 8)

- To be fair, Rug is a good choice to fight X combo deck and Maverick players have tools to fight SnT.

rxavage

06-14-2012, 01:49 PM

I'm about as bad as they come. Got top 8 at my LSG last Sat with... you guessed it... Sneak N Show.

I seem to be the only person that can't beat Rug or Maverick with the deck.

(lost to Rug and Maverick in the swiss and rug in round 1 of the top 8)

Mav is easy, RUG isn't as easy as people say. Learning to mulligan is key.

millerd33

06-14-2012, 01:51 PM

- To be fair, Rug is a good choice to fight X combo deck and Maverick players have tools to fight SnT.

LOL Thanks. The best part about legacy is no matter what they do with the banned list next week, there will always be another pile of broken a player like myself can oops their way into the top 8 with.

Banning cards is dangerous and should not be jumped into before the people actually playing the game have a chance to hate it out and adapt themselves.

millerd33

06-14-2012, 02:06 PM

Mav is easy, RUG isn't as easy as people say. Learning to mulligan is key.

Mav is tough when they go T1: Hierarch, T2: Thalia, T3: Knight t4: Karakas. on the play with you holding misdir and pierce.

post board turn 2 show n tell into sneak attack (holding griselbrand) and they flip linvala. Good times good times... (i'm sure i misplayed not just dropping grisel but I got greedy and thought in no way would is see linvala. Reading other deck forums is tech.

dragonwisdom

06-14-2012, 02:15 PM

show and tell drawbacks
First you lose a card when casting it.
Second you pay 3 mana. 3rd the opponent has the opportunity to play a card to.

We need to unban cards, not ban them.

Kich867

06-14-2012, 02:17 PM

LOL Thanks. The best part about legacy is no matter what they do with the banned list next week, there will always be another pile of broken a player like myself can oops their way into the top 8 with.

Banning cards is dangerous and should not be jumped into before the people actually playing the game have a chance to hate it out and adapt themselves.

I believe this to be untrue. As you weed out decks that have no interaction with the opponent you'll come to a point where the only viable decks are decks that are hyper-interactive.

I'm really not a fan of devolving magic down to a slightly less exciting version of "Go Fish".

I've heard enough players say that Caw-Blade standard was their most fun playing magic; that when you pit two decks who focus heavily on interacting with the opponent against each other you get to see who the better player is.

I believe this comes down to a more obvious divide, not between the casual and hardcore magic player, because that's clearly not the case, but between the players who want to win and the players who want to be good at the game. And consequently win because you are the better player.

Between decks that interact heavily with each other, I find matchups to be relatively even, I don't believe there any many complete blow-outs in the DTB section, maybe slightly favorable here and there but with strong play and good decision making you can always come out on top barring bullshit draws on your/their side.

Show and tell is a rather ridiculous card concept that only gets worse as time goes on, prior to rise of eldrazi this wasn't a huge issue, but they're printing about 1 Juggernaut style creature per block right now and the deck is just gaining strength. Once most of the non-interactive decks have passed I think Magic will be in a really great spot where playskill greatly outweighs deck choice when considering win chance.

DragoFireheart

06-14-2012, 02:20 PM

I don't think there is anything with non-interactive decks like Storm and Dredge since they have to devote most of their main board to their combo and fighting them can be easy enough with proper sideboard cards.

The problem is when you get a combo deck as effective as the former but with as much protection/filter as a control deck.

Kich867

06-14-2012, 02:20 PM

show and tell drawbacks
First you lose a card when casting it.
Second you pay 3 mana. 3rd the opponent has the opportunity to play a card to.

We need to unban cards, not ban them.

This is a gross oversimplification. When your opponent drops Emrakul, the Aeons Torn for 3 mana and your best option is something like Tarmogoyf you fundamentally cannot win that game. You can't attack because your creature dies, you can't put more than 6 permanents on the board and it wouldn't even matter anyways.

Banning cards is fine and obviously the correct choice given problems. I'd rather see a format saturated with decks that interact heavily with each other than decks that attempt to completely avoid interaction with the opponent. If you don't want to play with the person and try to solve your combo puzzle to win, you can always just pick up a Rubik's Cube. It's pretty much the same thing but a little more rewarding and a little less expensive.

I don't think there is anything with non-interactive decks like Storm and Dredge since they have to devote most of their main board to their combo and fighting them can be easy enough with proper sideboard cards.

The problem is when you get a combo deck as effective as the former but with as much protection/filter as a control deck.

Exactly, I mean I'm not the -hugest- fan of those decks either but at least Storm is genuinely difficult to play well and is prone to disruption and Dredge is still very swingy / fightable. Shitting out a tentacle monster that you have absolutely no chance of stopping on turn 1-2 isn't that exciting.

Koby

06-14-2012, 02:23 PM

Mav is easy, RUG isn't as easy as people say. Learning to mulligan is key.

I have the opposite experience. RUG runs out of counters easily. Mav has staying power with clock + Karakas.

millerd33

06-14-2012, 02:32 PM

Kich867

06-14-2012, 02:46 PM

It seems most of the top decks have the tools already in place or can sideboard cards that make show n tell not an auto win. (maybe a more skilled pilot would not have the same troubles I do)

A clock from rug with force and daze pierce behind it make picking the correct spot to try and force through your combo much harder. It's hard to win early counter wars when your the one trying to cast the first spell.

A clock from maverick with pridemage, thalia, karakas.

even any cabal therapy/thoughtseize deck makes setting things up much harder.

Yes, I suppose having an opening hand of Force + blue card + daze + pierce + some creature + 2 land might be hard to deal with.

In fact, can we just surmise that, against any deck while playing any deck, when facing a god-hand it is often hard to set things up?

In reality though, one discard spell rarely hoses your entire game play and loses you the game and you pack just as much or more counter magic / protection than control decks do. Maverick being able to tutor karakas is probably the worst thing you have to encounter and that requires them having either it or a knight in hand and that should only happen about half the time; sneak and tell has sideboard options here.

DragoFireheart

06-14-2012, 02:47 PM

Exactly, I mean I'm not the -hugest- fan of those decks either but at least Storm is genuinely difficult to play well and is prone to disruption and Dredge is still very swingy / fightable. Shitting out a tentacle monster that you have absolutely no chance of stopping on turn 1-2 isn't that exciting.

Traditionally, combo-control decks are always the final result of the meta before a card gets banned. Almost always they were U/X/x or some variation of colors.

Flash? It was combo and control, U/x
Mystical Tutor? Reanimator was U/B combo control. (even if you disagree with the banning)
Survival of the Fittest? Typically combo/control with some aggro. U/G/w or U/G
Mental Misstep? Blade Control used it, but there was also No RUG, which was combo/control/aggro in U/R/G colors.

rxavage

06-14-2012, 02:47 PM

I have the opposite experience. RUG runs out of counters easily. Mav has staying power with clock + Karakas.

I wish it was the opposite because everyone plays RUG around here, Mav was flavour of the week a while. The RUG decks around here run just as many counters as I do. I personally have an exact 50/50 matchup so far. My losses often come when I have to mull to 5 or less usually. I have a feeling the Mav players are a little better where you are or I've just been lucky.

joemauer

06-14-2012, 02:54 PM

I have a feeling the Mav players are a little better where you are or I've just been lucky.

You must not know who Koby is.

rxavage

06-14-2012, 03:24 PM

You must not know who Koby is.

You and Dragofireheart must be the same person.

Koby

06-14-2012, 03:38 PM

I wish it was the opposite because everyone plays RUG around here, Mav was flavour of the week a while. The RUG decks around here run just as many counters as I do. I personally have an exact 50/50 matchup so far. My losses often come when I have to mull to 5 or less usually. I have a feeling the Mav players are a little better where you are or I've just been lucky.

What I mean, is that when Show & Tell resolves against RUG, I know I'm winning. When I cast it against Maverick, I'm almost certain they will have Knight or sandbagged Karakas. Resolving the Show & Tell in the latter matchup is risky compared to RUG. RUG can be beat by overloading their counters (easily done, considering Sneak Show's better filtering and threat density). Maverick you just have to get lucky, or dig for Sneak Attack. It gets worse as Maverick adapts by running more ways to find Karakas and playing more of them to begin with.

EDIT: by no means is it a cakewalk. It's about 60/40 Game 1, and slightly worse post-board due to the potential for more counters and Gilded Drake. Blood Moon is a nice trump however.

Tacosnape

06-15-2012, 03:08 AM

So after a lot of consideration, I might be on the ban Brainstorm bandwagon. Not that I think Brainstorm's the actual problem with Legacy. The problem with Legacy is that the whole format is blue.

It keeps picking up one amazing card after another. Blue has the best creatures in Legacy. It has the best protection packages. It has the best draw. The sad part is that Blue's become so strong that I don't think banning any one card will actually change things. And unbannings of any significant card won't change things either - To win in Legacy, you just find a strategy and then plug it into a shell backed up by Countermagic.

In theory, Cavern of Souls should change this. But thus far it hasn't. This is largely the fault of Show and Tell / Reanimator, who care very little about the dudes you drop and just win. On the other end, Delver's just too fast sometimes. Or UW Control has a Jace or Temporal Mastery to screw with you.

Took 2nd in a tournament tonight playing UW. Lost to Faeries. We each only dropped one game - Faeries player dropped one to RUG Delver, and I dropped one to Storm Combo. Plain and simple though, Blue is just stupid right now. And I don't know that it's something that can easily be fixed.

If it were my R&D, I'd ban Delver and Show and Tell, and see where the format landed. And if it stayed blue, bye Brainstorm. Otherwise, I'mma start playing some kind of a real format.

Vacrix

06-15-2012, 03:48 AM

Well they could always fix that by printing new stuff instead. For example..

(cards name) 1U
Creature
Discard ~: Return target creature to its owners hand.
1/3
Uncommon

Kinda like Faerie Macabre, but since its an activated ability, you can play it through Iona as well, etc. That would help the format against SnT. With Fauna Shaman in play as well, it wouldn't be hard to tutor this guy up even if your opponent has a creature in play.

Also.. I really think they need to print something like Rootmaze to punish decks that run heavy fetches.

(card name) G
Enchantment
Non-basic lands come into play tapped.
Cycling: Untap a land your opponent controls.

Also... I feel like part of the problem right now is that mono-black isn't a deck any more. Perhaps it needs a little boost in power. Discard would hamper the control archetype a little more and add some balance. It already has decent disruption options against combo decks, even SnT. It just needs a few decent beaters, something black curious lacks. I mean in terms of power, why does red get a conditional 4/3 for 1, blue gets a 3/2 flying for U, green gets a 3/3 for G, but black gets like a shitty 4/3 for BB? Come on guys...

Seriously, I think black should get something like..

(card name) B
Creature
As long as there are 2 or more creatures in all graveyards, ~ gets +2/+2.
Whenever you play a non-basic land, sacrifice ~.
1/1
U

Black needs a good conditional one drop beater for black aggro to be really good again. This guy doesn't look too OP as he's still conditional, Ooze still exists, and he prevents you from playing non-basics. I'd say if they want to make it rare, give it deathtouch, or make it +3/+3, a 2/2, and cost it at BB or something so that only mono-black wants to play it.

Granted, those cards might be overpowered.. but if they aren't going to ban stuff they might as well get a little more creative with their design ideas and open up some new possibilities for fringe decks to become more competitive. Black aggro is one of them.

Kich867

06-15-2012, 04:11 AM

I feel that they could do a much better job at defining what black does and what black is supposed to do, both as a color and flavorwise. They've certainly moved in the right direction with avacyn restored, Black Cat is a beautifully designed card, Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger, etc.

I'd be fine with Show And Tell decks if wizards printed hyper efficient methods to dealing with them and punishing the opponent for using them, something like:

B or 1B creature:
Sacrifice Guy
If <name> is sacrificed, your opponent sacrifices a creature and loses life equal to it's casting cost.
0/1

Which I feel would both be flavorful for black in that it's effect is only useful in a card disadvantageous way while simultaneously doing something useful. Something like Altar's Reap, Bone Splinters, Liliana, Innocent Blood type effects, or in this case Annihilator 6.

dontbiteitholmes

06-15-2012, 04:15 AM

Vacrix

06-15-2012, 04:27 AM

Yeah the problem is not that BS is broken it's that all the other colors have fundamental flaws that are shored up by splashing blue. No other color can interact with the stack in any meaningful way and pretty much every bomb have been 1X which makes it beyond simple to splash for blue every time.

Cards like Knight, GSZ, Pridemage, Teeg, Thalia have been steps in the right direction. We need more of that. Cards that are playable and not easily splashable in a blue shell. Most of the perceived problems with the current meta could be solved with new cards instead of banning BS which is like putting a band-aid on a crack in concrete.

IMO...

White should get a Force of Will like card that gives target player shroud until EOT.

White should get a hatebear that says something like "Whenever a creature enters play if it was not cast from hand exile it unless it's controller pays X where X is it's casting cost"

Black should get a duress that only hits sorcs and instants and has split second.

Red should get a werewolf that is
R "When an opponent plays their third spell of this turn flip ~this~" 1/1
/flipside/ "Whenever an opponent plays a spell ~this~ deals 2 damage to that player." 3/3

Green should get a GOOD hoser for counterspells targeting creatures (there are roughly 100000 ways to do this).

For starters anyways.
Yeah I definitely agree. One way to go is to shrink the card pool to make the existing card pool more balanced. The other way is to expand it, which happens naturally anyway. Its not like its that hard for wizards to make a few changes that would affect legacy. They already do it to some extent but they've been focusing on all the wrong things lately. Delver, Snapcaster, Jace, etc. really? Blue wasn't already good enough?

Another card black could really use right now, is a good method of getting rid of shitty topdecks of discard spells in the mid-late game when it doesn't need them. For example... perhaps this:

(card name) 2B
Creature
Discard a non-land card: You lose life equal to its casting cost. Draw a card.
Whenever a player discards a card, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
1/1

Doesn't seem like combo could abuse this at all but it would be pretty strong in black aggro.. kinda like black's version of Ooze.

I feel that they could do a much better job at defining what black does and what black is supposed to do, both as a color and flavorwise. They've certainly moved in the right direction with avacyn restored, Black Cat is a beautifully designed card, Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger, etc.

I'd be fine with Show And Tell decks if wizards printed hyper efficient methods to dealing with them and punishing the opponent for using them, something like:

B or 1B creature:
Sacrifice Guy
If <name> is sacrificed, your opponent sacrifices a creature and loses life equal to it's casting cost.
0/1

Which I feel would both be flavorful for black in that it's effect is only useful in a card disadvantageous way while simultaneously doing something useful. Something like Altar's Reap, Bone Splinters, Liliana, Innocent Blood type effects, or in this case Annihilator 6.
Unfortunately, I feel like SnT would still be able to recover from taking 15 damage. Its better against Griselbrand because they take 8 and lose 7 if they draw 7 cards, but 7 cards is still enough to potentially get something good going for you.

Tao

06-15-2012, 04:43 AM

(card name) G
Enchantment
Non-basic lands come into play tapped.

I would love that card. Would be cool for standard and modern, too. Don't give it cycling though, it is probably already too good as it is.

Einherjer

06-15-2012, 04:50 AM

I am the brainwasher

06-15-2012, 05:02 AM

I would love that card. Would be cool for standard and modern, too. Don't give it cycling though, it is probably already too good as it is.

Root Maze is in fact a decent card, even without that restriction.

Kich867

06-15-2012, 05:02 AM

What's the problem guys? Do we have to go through the "Ban-Brainstorm"-Thingie once again? Didn't we do that 8492 times already? Yeah, Legacy-players tend to cry about things shortly before a new announcement. But...it always ends with ban Brainstorm. This is a competitive format, no childs-game. If you cannot play your Mono-B-Aggro, that's fine for me. If you want to kick blue in the ass - build a deck featuring AetherVial/CavernofSouls. I really do not care if you cannot play your pet-deck. At the moment there are 3 ways of playing a competitive deck:
1) 4 FoW 4 Brainstorm.dec
2) Maverick
3) 12-Dredgers.dec
You might disagree but atleast before the printing of Terminus/EntreattheAngels this was a true fact. Who boycotted Legacy? Who sold all his cards? Who didn't go to tournaments? Noone? Why? Because we love Legacy the way it is. If I get blown out by an Emrakul T1. Fine! That's it. Up to game 2. I do not listen to complains if I tempo out an opponent or control him for 20 minutes. That's the friggen game.

I could say the meta is healthy, which may be wrong. But Ill say:

The current meta is Legacy!

It's blue, it's unfair and it's competitive. Deal with it.

I don't think that's much of an accurate description of things. As a general statement I don't love legacy the way it is, and would love to see it improve as a format.

This kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier with this divide between people who play the game strictly to have something to win at and people who play the game as an investment of skill. You can play around being controlled for 20 minutes and win, you can play around tempo loss, you can play around stifle and wasteland and daze and counters and removal, but if you don't happen to have force of will in your opening hand against a t1 emrakul you literally have no other option other than to lose to something you have absolutely no ability to deal with.

I don't really give a shit about blue, if anything, brainstorm is healthy because of it's ability to add consistency to an otherwise random situation.

The idea here would be to make it more fair and more reliant on your ability to actually play the game, not devolve it into a less exciting version of Go Fish. "Hey do you have an 8? No? Cool I win. Game 2?" I mean if people really don't want to interact with their opponent and be competitive I don't understand why they don't just go for professional bowling? There's more money in it, it probably costs less to get into, you can drink while you do it. At least bowling is more consistent on the draw, you don't have to worry about the pins being randomized on you, you get to use the same ball from the same starting point each throw and so long as you can execute a given strategy flawlessly repeatedly you can excel at it.

I am the brainwasher

06-15-2012, 05:13 AM

I don't think that's much of an accurate description of things.
You can play around being controlled for 20 minutes and win, you can play around tempo loss, you can play around stifle and wasteland and daze and counters and removal, but if you don't happen to have force of will in your opening hand against a t1 emrakul you literally have no other option other than to lose to something you have absolutely no ability to deal with.

The idea here would be to make it more fair and more reliant on your ability to actually play the game, not devolve it into a less exciting version of Go Fish.

All of this is true. A lot of players need to suck that up to finally get the slightest grasp of how a format, and even more important a game should work out to make it fun and competetive at the same time.
Well, that doesn't change the fact that I can't get rid of the impression that all this talk is pearls before swine again anyway... .

EviL668-2

06-15-2012, 05:34 AM

You can play around being controlled for 20 minutes and win, you can play around tempo loss, you can play around stifle and wasteland and daze and counters and removal, but if you don't happen to have force of will in your opening hand against a t1 emrakul you literally have no other option other than to lose to something you have absolutely no ability to deal with.

Have you ever played Zoo vs Belcher? I did and got F***ed by Belcher. Thats it!
My M8 played Canadian and took revenge!

thefringthing

06-15-2012, 05:58 AM

I think Carsten's article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24289_Eternal_Europe_Uncluttering_the_Banned_List.html) today on potential unbans is worth reading.

TooCloseToTheSun

06-15-2012, 10:42 AM

but if you don't happen to have force of will in your opening hand against a t1 emrakul you literally have no other option other than to lose to something you have absolutely no ability to deal with.
OR..

Karakas
Innocent Blood
Humility (in play off SnT)
Ensaring Bridge (in play off SnT)
Diablolic Edict
ORing (in play off SnT)
Peacekeeper (in play off SnT)
Journey to Nowhere
The Abyss (in play off SnT)
Chainer's Edict

etc...

Esper3k

06-15-2012, 10:52 AM

KotR is also pretty common to see - and you know your opponent will always have it! *shakes fist*

joemauer

06-15-2012, 11:04 AM

I think Carsten's article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24289_Eternal_Europe_Uncluttering_the_Banned_List.html) today on potential unbans is worth reading.

This was a good read, and mirrors what a lot of us have been saying about unbannings for awhile.

Some of his possible unbans were highly questionable: Balance and Goblin Recruiter. Tolarian Academy was one I never considered, but actually may be unban-worthy.

One small gripe I had with the article is him saying one card combos should stay banned(SotF, tinker, etc.), but then say Griselbrand is the problem with Show and Tell decks. In reality, both cards are problematic: Griselbrand & Show and Tell.

OR..

Karakas
Innocent Blood
Humility (in play off SnT)
Ensaring Bridge (in play off SnT)
Diablolic Edict
ORing (in play off SnT)
Peacekeeper (in play off SnT)
Journey to Nowhere
The Abyss (in play off SnT)
Chainer's Edict

etc...
If Griselbrand gets Show and Teller instead many of these answers become invalidated or risky. Also, Sneak Attack can play around most of these so-called answers as well.

TooCloseToTheSun

06-15-2012, 11:24 AM

If Griselbrand gets Show and Teller instead many of these answers become invalidated or risky. Also, Sneak Attack can play around most of these so-called answers as well.

Ok, how about:

Fiend hunter
Cruel Edict
Tariff
Waterfront Bouncer
Sower of Temptation
Shriekmaw
Nekrataal
Confusion in the Ranks
gilded drake
Big Game Hunter
Stingerfling Spider
Tsabo Tavoc
Empress Galina
Merieke Ri Berit
captian sisay (to fetch Karakas)
crop rotation
arena of the ancients
sneak attack (of your own)
seal of unsummoning
seal of death
dominating licid
preacher
cryptoplasm
phyrexian ingester
dark hatchling
bone shredder
Oubliette
spine of ish-sah
(any clone) (you have to cast/ninjitsu after SnT resolves)

Holly

06-15-2012, 11:34 AM

Most of your "answers" can't stop his draw 7 which is the big point.

And the "Sneak Attack of your own"..well if only Sneak Show can beat Sneak Show..=P

joemauer

06-15-2012, 11:44 AM

Ok, how about:

/List of mostly unplayable cards/

You might as well play your own Emrakuls & Griselbrands. That will only eat up eight sideboard cards and insure you win.

Koby

06-15-2012, 11:44 AM

Ok, how about:

*list*

You forgot the best one: Duplicant

Nice fattie. Can you deal with it's Evil Twin?

Star|Scream

06-15-2012, 12:04 PM

Most of your "answers" can't stop his draw 7 which is the big point.

And the "Sneak Attack of your own"..well if only Sneak Show can beat Sneak Show..=P

Don't try to argue with logic. It just makes it worse.

Legacy is fine. Blue isn't dominant, or if it is, it's because that's the way legacy is supposed to be. Deal with it.

edit: Also, stop whining.

Kich867

06-15-2012, 12:58 PM

Ok, how about:

Fiend hunter
Cruel Edict
Tariff
Waterfront Bouncer
Sower of Temptation
Shriekmaw
Nekrataal
Confusion in the Ranks
gilded drake
Big Game Hunter
Stingerfling Spider
Tsabo Tavoc
Empress Galina
Merieke Ri Berit
captian sisay (to fetch Karakas)
crop rotation
arena of the ancients
sneak attack (of your own)
seal of unsummoning
seal of death
dominating licid
preacher
cryptoplasm
phyrexian ingester
dark hatchling
bone shredder
Oubliette
spine of ish-sah
(any clone) (you have to cast/ninjitsu after SnT resolves)

This is practically why the card is silly, it forces you to play unbelievably awful cards that either don't target or destroy through an etb trigger.

The answer to show and tell is basically, "Play a shittier deck and shit up your sideboard." This is also only a fairly bad list to dealing with show and tell specifically; people seem to forget that they can play Emrakul's and Griselbrand's for 1 in multiples, given their dig I don't see a Karakas stopping 2 of them.

Edicts are the only remotely viable option against them because they aren't completely fucking awful against everyone else. And that deals with one of them: if it's griselbrand you auto-lose with almost every one of those options. So now we need that big list of shit cards, then we need another list to deal with griselbrand (which is basically Stifle and Trickbind), and we need another list to deal with Progenitus because almost every card in there doesn't apply to him except for...edicts. And the only worthwhile edict is 2 mana and prone to spell snare, spell pierce, daze, force, and misdirection, that early in the game.

The most obvious time to change a tradition is when you only keep following it because it's tradition.

Tacosnape

06-15-2012, 01:03 PM

If you want to kick blue in the ass - build a deck featuring AetherVial/CavernofSouls.

This is completely wrong, narrow, and off the point.

All blue decks are not RUG Delver.

Decks with Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls do not auto-crush blue decks, because blue is all three major archetypes. You think Sneaky Show, Reanimator, and Hypergenesis care that your stuff is uncounterable? Nope. You think UW Miracles can't just Terminus/Jace/Entreat you to death anyway?

There's more to blue in Legacy than any one card or any one strategy. Cavern of Souls and Thalia were a start at an attempt to fix this, but Red/Black/Green need some things too.

Einherjer

06-15-2012, 01:15 PM

This is completely wrong, narrow, and off the point.

All blue decks are not RUG Delver.

Decks with Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls do not auto-crush blue decks, because blue is all three major archetypes. You think Sneaky Show, Reanimator, and Hypergenesis care that your stuff is uncounterable? Nope. You think UW Miracles can't just Terminus/Jace/Entreat you to death anyway?

There's more to blue in Legacy than any one card or any one strategy. Cavern of Souls and Thalia were a start at an attempt to fix this, but Red/Black/Green need some things too.

You havn't played much with/against Terminator have you? While you are right that it doesn't kill SneakShow/Reanimator it's good against the rest. Yes, I can still cast a Terminus. But how powerful is a terminus vs a good player, if not followed up by either a Counterbalance, or some other kind of Counterspell? Aether Vial is incredibly good vs Terminator. You Terminus away my 2 Creatures? Fine, eOt I bring in another one, fine? Or I untap and play a Knight via my Cavern, you wanna counter? Oh wait! You are one of these "Ban-Brainstorm"-guys aren't you? Not gonna make much sense to discuss this topic with you.

Greetings

Julian23

06-15-2012, 01:19 PM

"Blue" isn't a deck. Blue certainly isn't an archetype. Blue isn't a strategy. It provides tactical tools to utilize in whatever strategy you favor.

Therefore, the complains about "Blue" are different from the ones about specific cards in general. Just to keep this in mind. Attacking "Blue" in general or arguing about one color being to dominant will only ridicule yourself.

Kich867

06-15-2012, 01:42 PM

You havn't played much with/against Terminator have you? While you are right that it doesn't kill SneakShow/Reanimator it's good against the rest. Yes, I can still cast a Terminus. But how powerful is a terminus vs a good player, if not followed up by either a Counterbalance, or some other kind of Counterspell? Aether Vial is incredibly good vs Terminator. You Terminus away my 2 Creatures? Fine, eOt I bring in another one, fine? Or I untap and play a Knight via my Cavern, you wanna counter? Oh wait! You are one of these "Ban-Brainstorm"-guys aren't you? Not gonna make much sense to discuss this topic with you.

Greetings

That was deeply nonsensical. How powerful is terminus against a good player? Very powerful. Board wiping for 1 is good. If they printed a 1 mana Wrath of God, it would be played. A lot. By good players. Against good players.

Can we please step away from the land of god-hands for a minute here and speak more generally? The idea that someone would have 2 creatures down with another creature in hand (that is a knight) that also plays Aether Vial seems sketchy at best.

UW Terminator would not be afraid of that, not between terminus and swords and jace. In my experience UW decks don't counter creatures, they just sword it. And if another one comes they just snapcaster sword that and dig for their next sword. Or in this case, they terminus it/them while digging for another sword, which they'll more often than not find when you have brainstorm every turn.

HokusSchmokus

06-15-2012, 01:48 PM

You havn't played much with/against Terminator have you? While you are right that it doesn't kill SneakShow/Reanimator it's good against the rest. Yes, I can still cast a Terminus. But how powerful is a terminus vs a good player, if not followed up by either a Counterbalance, or some other kind of Counterspell? Aether Vial is incredibly good vs Terminator. You Terminus away my 2 Creatures? Fine, eOt I bring in another one, fine? Or I untap and play a Knight via my Cavern, you wanna counter? Oh wait! You are one of these "Ban-Brainstorm"-guys aren't you? Not gonna make much sense to discuss this topic with you.

Greetings

You gotta stop reading only the parts you want to read. Entreat/Jace still is a potent gameplan if your stuff is uncounterable. ALSO and that's the big deal right here, Tacos point is that blue isn't an archetype. Try to adress maybe the relevant points in people's posts instead of nitpicking. But since you don't seem to do that(btw, nice classic rhetoric figure you use in trying to ridicule Taco) I think it's
Not gonna make much sense to discuss this topic with you.

Greetings.

I am the brainwasher

06-15-2012, 02:00 PM

In my experience UW decks don't counter creatures, they just sword it. And if another one comes they just snapcaster sword that and dig for their next sword.

Am I really the only one who thinks that this is hilarious?
God this is so true and let me tell you, I hate that sort of play.

Star|Scream

06-15-2012, 02:02 PM

"Blue" isn't a deck. Blue certainly isn't an archetype. Blue isn't a strategy. It provides tactical tools to utilize in whatever strategy you favor.

But when the top aggro deck, top control deck, and top TWO combo decks all use those same tools, can't you see how it would be frustrating to people?

Gui

06-15-2012, 02:03 PM

Am I really the only one who thinks that this is hilarious?
God this is so true and let me tell you, I hate that sort of play.

Not really, it happens all the time against Dredge and their 3 sided Extractions. All of them seem to have around 2 or 3 extractions in their opening hand.

HokusSchmokus

06-15-2012, 02:08 PM

But when the top aggro deck, top control deck, and top TWO combo decks all use those same tools, can't you see how it would be frustrating to people?

Everybody needs to chill. Seriously. Blue is almost always only added for Filtering and Permission. Thqt's because what blue does. Blue has been the card draw color since Alpha. Almost the same with permission. We play a competitive format,of course something is gonna be best and of course it is "blue" as you call it. Get on with it already.
Edit: Exspecially since the cards that send shit over the top are almost never blue cards.

Esper3k

06-15-2012, 02:11 PM

HokusSchmokus

06-15-2012, 02:13 PM

Delver is Permission because you have to have his permission to live! :eek:

Delver is actually the only thing that annoys me,not bc of his power level,but because of the color. Does not need to be blue,stylewise.

Kich867

06-15-2012, 02:13 PM

Everybody needs to chill. Seriously. Blue is almost always only added for Filtering and Permission. Thqt's because what blue does. Blue has been the card draw color since Alpha. Almost the same with permission. We play a competitive format,of course something is gonna be best and of course it is "blue" as you call it. Get on with it already.
Edit: Exspecially since the cards that send shit over the top are almost never blue cards.

That's fine, honestly, I'm super ok with brainstorm and blue permission. In my opinion, if you aren't playing blue you should be playing enough shit to push through blue or be playing discard to push through.

And that's an interesting dynamic. It's not really unfair or anything. I don't really want to devolve this conversation away from Sneak Attack / Show and Tell though. Sneak Attack is definitely more manageable than Show and Tell, and getting rid of Show And Tell gets rid of a lot of other very, very retarded strategies.

Moondancerbb

06-15-2012, 02:15 PM

Dredge is a "blue" deck isn't it?

4 careful study
4 breakthrough
4 narcomeba

Chain of vapor in the side.

Julian23

06-15-2012, 02:17 PM

But when the top aggro deck, top control deck, and top TWO combo decks all use those same tools, can't you see how it would be frustrating to people?

No. I'm a Spike. I don't care which kind of light is emitted from the frame of my cards. I can of course see why other people would dislike that.

HokusSchmokus

06-15-2012, 02:18 PM

It also makes things less challenging for good players. If people actually started to adept to things instead of durdling around in SCGs Sunday Night Magic with bad lists and without knowing what to,there wouldn't be a problem. I' almost sure we are not going to get bans this time,for the sake of the fornat(playerwise)
Edit: I meant to qoute Kich,damn you Mobile

Star|Scream

06-15-2012, 02:22 PM

No. I'm a Spike. I don't care which kind of light is emitted from the frame of my cards. I can of course see why other people would dislike that.

Well if they ban SNT and/or Brainstorm, you'll still get to play with the best cards available, so you'll be fine. And the people who like playing strategies that aren't necessarily blue will also be happy. Seems like win/win to me. That is, if you really are a spike and don't care which cards give you wins. What I suspect is that most people who label themselves spikes are really just homers for brainstorm and blue, and that's why they complain when you say their cards are too powerful.

Tacosnape

06-15-2012, 02:26 PM

Also, in digging for various ways to answer the current format via Cavern of Souls, I discovered the following facts:

1. Almost every scary dude in this format flies. Delver, Griselbrand, Emrakul, etc.
2. The only creature that specifically destroys a flyer upon entering the battlefield is Hammerheim Deadeye. A red Giant Warrior. asefkjgsailkjghadlghdyfgld.

So if we're supposed to solve Blue.Format with Cavern of Souls, (I mean, Kithkin Advisor for Gaddock Teeg? Fuck you too, pal.) we're gonna need some tools here, Wizards. So, you know, please print this:

Dragonslayer
:1::g:
Creature - Human Archer
When Dragonslayer enters the battlefield, destroy target creature with flying.
2/1

We'll also take the following, just for dude boostage:

Thundermagus
:r::r:
Creature - Human Wizard
When Thundermagus enters the battlefield, it deals 2 damage divided among one or two target creatures and/or players.
2/1

Hall Drone
:1:
Artifact Creature - Construct
Sorceries cost an additional :1: to cast.
Hall pass, please.
1/1

Goblin Grail-Keeper
:r::r:
Creature - Goblin Rogue
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost 1, counter that spell and Goblin Grail-Keeper deals 1 damage to itself.
Greyk was a terrible choice to leave in charge of such a precious relic. Then again, so were all the rest of the tribe.
2/2

Defiler of Eternity
:1::b:
Creature - Zombie Wizard
If a player would draw a card except for the first card drawn during his or her draw step, that player skips that draw instead.
2/2

Julian23

06-15-2012, 02:27 PM

Lemnear

06-15-2012, 02:34 PM

Tacosnape

06-15-2012, 02:39 PM

Taco, you are Aware that your goblin is the unholy Child of mental misstep (countering One Drops) and Dark confidant (creature that creates CA)?

Protection from discard, burn, combo and spot-removal included^^

It's also a 2-drop red dude in a format where combo exists. I don't think he'd break anything. He still dies to most black removal, being blocked by Snapcaster Mage, or, suboptimally, casting 2 CMC-1 spells. Or, you know, Terminus. Or Jitte. Or Thundermagus. Whatever works. Mental Misstep and Dark Confidant are still better than this guy, hands down.

Regardless of this, though, my point is this: If Cavern's expected to be what diversifies the format, better dudes have to exist. More guys on the Thalia power level for being utility as balls.

Star|Scream

06-15-2012, 02:39 PM

Well, this is not gonna get us anywhere. I on the other side am pretty convinced that most "anti-blue" whiners are just medicore players that never at least Top8'ed a single SCG event. Those people would rather see decks with a higher level of variance more viable. I like Brainstorm for the sake that it lets me beat those players without praying on my drawstep.

On the other hand, I have never ever played neither Brainstorm nor Force of Will in a Legacy Grand Prix. I switched to other decks that were more suited for the metagame, like Maverick in Amsterdam 2011. Never looked back. Although I admit I'm gonna play UW in Gent since it's just too strong to pass upon.

Is it possible that having brainstorm in your deck is the reason you've had more success against those you perceive as "bad players?"

Maybe it's the exact opposite and brainstorm actually makes worse players better.

The point I'm getting at is calling someone a whiner because they feel the game should be a certain way is just the other side of the same exact coin.

Julian23

06-15-2012, 02:46 PM

Yeah, of course. Brainstorm allows you to outplay your opponent based on skill as opposed to just sheer luck. And yet still too many people still just play End of Turn Brainstorm and hope to get there. I don't mind, I usually beat those people because I actually know what I am doing.

Esper3k

06-15-2012, 02:51 PM

I think Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf are pretty scary and they don't fly...

I mean seriously - look at Tarmogoyf. Do you really want that thing chasing you through a forest?

Star|Scream

06-15-2012, 02:51 PM

Jamaican Zombie Legend

06-15-2012, 02:58 PM

Those people would rather see decks with a higher level of variance more viable. I like Brainstorm for the sake that it lets me beat those players without praying on my drawstep.

I can sort of agree with this sentiment, but I'd like it so that people wouldn't have to play Blue with Brainstorm to stand a chance of properly managing variance. The only other cards I can think of that give non-Blue decks a chance at seeing lots of cards and controlling draws were printed at least 15 years ago, Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library (no, Top doesn't count because it is used practically exclusively in Blue control decks and a fake deck that uses Scrying Sheets). I want to see the ability of card selection bled out more. I'd like more things in the vein of M. Guile or Library, but maybe on critters. Try these for instance (ignore my poor ability at power level balancing).

Guile Goes in Everything
G
Creature-Human Street Fighter

At the beginning of your upkeep you may look at the top 3 cards of your library and put them back in any order.

1/2

Loot Dude
R
Creature-Goblin Human Elf Cehphalid

Haste

At the end of your draw step you may discard a card then draw a card.

1/1

Big Bad Voodoo Daddy
B
Creature-Coolest Cat on the Block

At the beginning of your upkeep lose 1 life and scry 1.

1/1

Maybe also make some nonblue staple spells for other colors with aggressive cycling, cantrip, and scry abilities to help other colors fight variance. Sure, none of these would be as good as Brainstorm, but at least other colors wouldn't be completely impoverished in the "reducing variance" department.

Doing this, and giving other colors ways to interact with the stack (like bleeding out countermagic), would go a long way in reducing the deathgrip Blue has on the format without having to ban tons of cards.

Julian23

06-15-2012, 03:06 PM

Folks have been arguing on here that playing brainstorm correctly actually takes less luck than playing without it and winning.

I can sort of agree with this sentiment, but I'd like it so that people wouldn't have to play Blue with Brainstorm to stand a chance of properly managing variance.

Yeah, exactly. This outlines the problems people have with blue. Reducing variance is part of blue's identity as a color. If they really wanted to see all five colors to appear at the same quantities in tournaments, R&D would have to give this ability to all colors. Right now, the way Magic is and has been designed, Blue has a tactical advantage over the others.

AngryTroll

06-15-2012, 03:21 PM

Star|Scream

06-15-2012, 03:22 PM

Stingerfling Spider also nails fliying creatures, is a spider, and is green; a perfect fit. Silklash Spider used to see (fringe) Legacy play to kill fliers.

And costs 5 when you need it on turn 2 or 3

Also:

I think a lot of people here are taking this article http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19780_Fishing_Lessons_Pondering_Brainstorm.html a little too literally.

TooCloseToTheSun

06-15-2012, 03:33 PM

Yeah, exactly. This outlines the problems people have with blue. Reducing variance is part of blue's identity as a color. If they really wanted to see all five colors to appear at the same quantities in tournaments, R&D would have to give this ability to all colors. Right now, the way Magic is and has been designed, Blue has a tactical advantage over the others.

I think it's more a problem with deck builders. Every color has ways to reduce variance, depending on what you are trying to do, but bad deck builders will never understand that.

DrJones

06-15-2012, 03:38 PM

Yeah, exactly. This outlines the problems people have with blue. Reducing variance is part of blue's identity as a color. If they really wanted to see all five colors to appear at the same quantities in tournaments, R&D would have to give this ability to all colors. Right now, the way Magic is and has been designed, Blue has a tactical advantage over the others.The problem isn't in the effect, but in the cost. An appropiately costed brainstorm wouldn't see play simple because then it would be a fair card.

ESG

06-15-2012, 03:54 PM

A friend and I tested a "combo killer" deck last night against Reid's Reanimator list. The deck had Thoughtseizes and Vendilion Cliques as disruption, Delver of Secrets to help clock, Edicts for removal, Force, Daze and Spell Pierce, Stifle and Wasteland to smother early plays, Brainstorm and Ponder, and Tombstalker for some extra cheap muscle. And you know what? The deck still couldn't do better than 50-50 in the matchup.

Keep deluding yourselves that there are acceptable answers to Griselbrand. Reanimator was already a strong deck before it was printed, and it can answer or ignore most of the narrow answers people have offered in this thread.

Star|Scream

06-15-2012, 04:10 PM

Einherjer

06-15-2012, 04:11 PM

Kich867

06-15-2012, 04:21 PM

I've just made 3 games vs a Reanimator-list with 4 Griselbrand. That's the one you guys are talking about right?
I lost every G1 and stroke back to a 2-1 all 3 times. Guys! Griselbrand is good! But he is a friggen creature! He isn't uncounterable nor are his enabelers. Calm down!

WOooooooooooo! Go you!

Thank god for that. I mean for a second there I thought we might have to play people other than that guy you played some time.

Thanks bro.

Star|Scream

06-15-2012, 04:25 PM

WOooooooooooo! Go you!

Thank god for that. I mean for a second there I thought we might have to play people other than that guy you played some time.

Thanks bro.

Nope! Thanks to Phillip the format has stabilized

Vacrix

06-15-2012, 04:51 PM

I can sort of agree with this sentiment, but I'd like it so that people wouldn't have to play Blue with Brainstorm to stand a chance of properly managing variance. The only other cards I can think of that give non-Blue decks a chance at seeing lots of cards and controlling draws were printed at least 15 years ago, Mirri's Guile and Sylvan Library (no, Top doesn't count because it is used practically exclusively in Blue control decks and a fake deck that uses Scrying Sheets). I want to see the ability of card selection bled out more. I'd like more things in the vein of M. Guile or Library, but maybe on critters. Try these for instance (ignore my poor ability at power level balancing).
These are interesting ideas. The thing that makes Brainstorm so good though, is that you can respond with it. Therefore, most would argue that these cards do not solve the problem of deck manipulation because its not manipulation per se... its Brainstorm.

- Its an instant so you can respond with it
- You can put cards on top of your library that you do not want, and synergize with a fetchland

Honestly, they would be more likely to print...

(card name) B
Creature
Whenever an opponent draws a card except for the card drawn during the draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ for each card drawn this way.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ if the opponent has more than 4 cards in hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, lose X life twice where X is the number of cards in your hand.
1/1
R

Control could NOT play this guy. You are forced to play premature protection in the form of discard unless you want to pay life every turn. I originally costed it as pay X life, and it just seemed like it would be a confidant-esque creature that control would want to play. In this case, paying twice life makes it more suicidal, and therefore more black's flavor. Kinda reminds me of the rack as well, but on crack. Also, if you drop this guy too early, you could have, say 5 cards in hand. Losing 10 life? Hell nah. 4 cards, 8 life? For a 1 drop? I think he's balanced. Would be fun as shit to play this guy a long side Death's Shadow.

EDIT:
(card name) 1G
Creature
Whenever an opponent has 4 or more cards in hand, that player must play with his or her hand revealed until the end of turn.
2/3

So I don't know if I worded this correctly. Say the opponent Brainstorms with only 1 other card in hand, they tick up to 4 cards as the spell is resolving. When that happens, this creatures trigger is met, and the opponent plays with his or her hand revealed for the rest of the turn. Would also apply to hands of 2 cards and Brainstorm. Perhaps its underpowered, but we need some sort of anti-Brainstorm measures to punish players who play it. If WotC can do that, then they won't have to ban it, it will still be a strong card that people like to play with, but they will have to work harder than they do right now.

Koby

06-15-2012, 04:57 PM

I've just made 3 games vs a Reanimator-list with 4 Griselbrand. That's the one you guys are talking about right?
I lost every G1 and stroke back to a 2-1 all 3 times. Guys! Griselbrand is good! But he is a friggen creature! He isn't uncounterable nor are his enabelers. Calm down!

Between you and Hanni, I think we can all agree - Cockatrice/MWS is a piece of a shit for testing formats/broken cards/proving anything relevant.

menace13

06-15-2012, 06:08 PM

Fellas, don't worry! I have been goldfishing Grisselbrand decks against myself since I needed a competent opponent and I can't seem to not draw the game, ever.

The format is safe.

http://i.qkme.me/36dfo6.jpg

SpikeyMikey

06-15-2012, 10:00 PM

These are interesting ideas. The thing that makes Brainstorm so good though, is that you can respond with it. Therefore, most would argue that these cards do not solve the problem of deck manipulation because its not manipulation per se... its Brainstorm.

- Its an instant so you can respond with it
- You can put cards on top of your library that you do not want, and synergize with a fetchland

Honestly, they would be more likely to print...

(card name) B
Creature
Whenever an opponent draws a card except for the card drawn during the draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ for each card drawn this way.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a +1/+1 counter on ~ if the opponent has more than 4 cards in hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, lose X life twice where X is the number of cards in your hand.
1/1
R

Control could NOT play this guy. You are forced to play premature protection in the form of discard unless you want to pay life every turn. I originally costed it as pay X life, and it just seemed like it would be a confidant-esque creature that control would want to play. In this case, paying twice life makes it more suicidal, and therefore more black's flavor. Kinda reminds me of the rack as well, but on crack. Also, if you drop this guy too early, you could have, say 5 cards in hand. Losing 10 life? Hell nah. 4 cards, 8 life? For a 1 drop? I think he's balanced. Would be fun as shit to play this guy a long side Death's Shadow.

EDIT:
(card name) 1G
Creature
Whenever an opponent has 4 or more cards in hand, that player must play with his or her hand revealed until the end of turn.
2/3

So I don't know if I worded this correctly. Say the opponent Brainstorms with only 1 other card in hand, they tick up to 4 cards as the spell is resolving. When that happens, this creatures trigger is met, and the opponent plays with his or her hand revealed for the rest of the turn. Would also apply to hands of 2 cards and Brainstorm. Perhaps its underpowered, but we need some sort of anti-Brainstorm measures to punish players who play it. If WotC can do that, then they won't have to ban it, it will still be a strong card that people like to play with, but they will have to work harder than they do right now.

Your Brainstorm hate-bear doesn't work. SBE's don't check in the middle of the resolution of spells. It would check before Brainstorm and after Brainstorm, but not halfway through.

You (and I'm speaking generally now, not at Vacrix) are perfect examples of why democracy is a terrible idea. You see a complex situation, with tens of thousands of little moving pieces, and you try and boil it down to 1 or 2 simple points that you can comprehend rather than trying to understand the whole of the thing. And you don't understand that changing one piece doesn't just change the pieces most closely related to it, it sends ripples throughout the whole thing. It's like Wizards changing their design standards in order to make the game "more fun" by eliminating non-interactive pieces like land destruction and countermagic and creating what have generally been unbalanced, "unfun" Standard formats in doing so.

Julian23

06-16-2012, 01:24 AM

Your Brainstorm hate-bear doesn't work. SBE's don't check in the middle of the resolution of spells. It would check before Brainstorm and after Brainstorm, but not halfway through.

While I don't think any of these would see competitive play, they still work. State-Based Effects have nothing to do with these cards, just triggered abilities. When the condition of a trigger is met, even during the resolution of a spell, the trigger is put on the stack right before the next time a player receives priority.

Ignithas_

06-16-2012, 04:12 AM

I've just made 3 games vs a Reanimator-list with 4 Griselbrand. That's the one you guys are talking about right?
I lost every G1 and stroke back to a 2-1 all 3 times. Guys! Griselbrand is good! But he is a friggen creature! He isn't uncounterable nor are his enabelers. Calm down!
And now please tell us which deck you were playing and how your SB looked like. I can always win against the strongest deck when I play it's nemesis deck or pack 15 hate cards against this strategy.

thefringthing

06-16-2012, 04:38 AM

As long as we're designing cards to hose Brainstorm, I think Chains of Mephistopheles on a two-drop flash creature would be pretty cool. They'd have to simplify the effect somewhat to get it on a card these days though.

Chains Guy 1B
Flash.
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card.
1/1

catmint

06-16-2012, 04:38 AM

Are some people here really complaining about reanimator now?

The deck has always been strong and got a little better with Griselbrand. Still countermagic and graveyard hate works exactly like it always has.

No Griselbrand deck is a danger to the format.

There is movement in the format due to new cards, which is perfectly fine... The Meta will adapt and new cards will change things again. That's the beauty of the game. Everyone not beeing able to deal with that and whining/crying should think about how the format would look like if there are no changes....pretty boring!

Rune

06-16-2012, 08:39 AM

No Griselbrand deck is a danger to the format.

Well, this is written in bold, so I guess it must be true. Thank heavens, I was really getting worried!

whining/crying

Wait, I think I've heard this before..

Currently playing:
:u::r:Sneak Attack

Ohhh....

http://xf8.xanga.com/2b1f821a45333277983015/m221425207.jpg

Reanimator isn't a big problem. Take away their sideboard Show and Tells and the deck becomes significantly less powerful, because it will have to actually deal with graveyard hate. Someone has probably already mentioned this, but the problem is that there's very little interaction with Show and Tell now. Your means of interation are basically limited to fighting SnT when it's on the stack. Before Griselbrand, there was plenty of ways to interact. Progenitus could easily be either raced, edicted or wrathed, and it mostly sucked in conjunction with Sneak Attack. Most Legacy decks have maindeck ways to deal with Emrakul. How exactly do you adapt to SnT+Griselbrand (without making your deck suck against everything else)? The effective hate cards are so few. There's Humility for an actual hoser. Sower/Gilded Drake are reasonable - only available to the color that could interact in the first place, though. The "steal" effects are very hit or miss because of multiple lines of attack (Sneak Attack/Reanimation). Ensnaring Bridge will win if your opponent is a drooling moron. Pithing Needle/Revoker if you want to use sideboard slots on cards that will only do something 50% of the time, and will still leave the 7/7 in play. Did I miss any of the amazing options we have available for adapting to Griselbrand? Other combo decks, like Dredge and storm, have to play through tons of hate every round, while Show and Tell decks completely sidestep it in such a retarded fashion.

Piceli89

06-16-2012, 09:04 AM

Curious how Anderson, Thompson and Nelson have all soundly admitted that Griselbrand should be banned in those silly SCG "interviewsenings". Curious how to not admit that a resolved reanimation spell or cheating spell that puts GB into play is close to 80% win. Drawing cards is the strongest ability in Eternal formats, period. Drawing chocks of seven equals to win. Your opponent has invested all its resources (cards in hand) to stop you as you did, and a single resolved spell puts you where you started. You find yourself playing with 7 cards against 0. You're going to draw other 7 every turn. Removals are realistically useless. So is Karakas.
It is analogue, in a certain way, to a topdecked Jace on an empty board state and with no cards in hand in a blue-based midrange mirror. Difference is, Jace in this case costs 1, 2, or 3, digs a little more, and also happens to be a robust win condition.

I was among the ones who thought that Terminus and Entreat the Angels would have swept the format, and I was wrong: the cards that tend to affect it the most are not the ones used as defensive tools in control shells, they're those who push combo decks to further brokenness. Format has quite adapted to big cards impacting on legacy at the time like Snapcaster Mage and Jace did just by shaping itself in a new form. This is realistically possible because they create advantage of a certain relevance that doesn't happen to win the game *immediately*. While neither Griselbrand does literally, there's no chance for the opponent to match you once it is resolved- maybe once on 100 times.
I really fail to see how the metagame can adapt harmoniously to a fatty that re-fills hand on demand. I mean, how can you beat that?
How will you ever prefer something else, given they'll print other cards, than a creature that gives you full cards constantly?
I always hope they S&T me Emrakul rather than Griselbrand. This should say something.

Yet there are some people here with little to no sense of judgement (or perhaps it's just because they're the ones to play the deck?) that would carry on endlessly in their "Griselbrand is fine" argument. It's not a shame to come up and say "ok, Griselbrand is grossily overpowered, that's why I play it." No blame.
Just, stop pretending what's undeniable.

EDIT: Also, granted that once GB touches ground, it becomes pretty downhill from there, how am I supposed to prevent that if I don't play disruptive decks? Even black disruption feels pretty unreliable to fight this kind of combo decks (as it has always been given BS and topdeck exists, btw), when the other decks of the format are starting to play Top, Counterbalance, Spell Pierce (maindeck) and Flusterstorm.
A concrete effect of Griselbrand being at the top is that only blue based decks and other combo decks stand a chance to match it. The snake bites its tail. Although Maverick can fight it pretty well, on the other side it is easily pushed out by Miracle control.