All B/R update speculation.

[majikal]

I have a sneaking suspicion that WotC are going to troll us all by banning a lot of shit. Whether it needs to be or not is another thing entirely, but here's where I think we'll end up:

Out-
Griselbrand - for being fuckbusted
Show and Tell - for being increasingly powerful with each new set (same reason as SotF)
Delver of Secrets - for consistently adapting to the multitudes of hate being thrown at it and only really having a hard time against the fuckbusted deck that is probably getting banhammered itself.

In-
Land Tax
Mind Twist

[I am the brainwasher]

I go out on a limb here and say that all those

DEAL WITH IT

clowns, are either playing the deck(s) by themselves, or are just plane ignorant and fail to see that their lack of skill is the reason why their testing seems fair or completeley balanced.
It is just the god damn truth that "combo-decks" (and I shudder while I write the word combo here) that abuse S&T doesn't have to jump through all the loops like every other deck, combo or not, has to in this format.
Well, except Belcher. But this is a complete different story.
So do I spam 24/7 "Your deck's fucked @ 20th, DEAL WITH IT" ? No I don't, so pls spare your nonsense as well. Gees... .

[I am the brainwasher]

Out-
Show and Tell - for being increasingly powerful with each new set (same reason as SotF)
Delver of Secrets - for consistently adapting to the multitudes of hate being thrown at it and only really having a hard time against the fuckbusted deck that is probably getting banhammered itself.

Hopefully they are smart enough to ban S&T now, which they failed to do at the last bannings.
I think that Delver gets banned isn't too far away from happening. It might be a surprise, but I would be 100% fine with this, even if it is (yet) too unreasonable.
I would not be too sad to see Canadian Threshold going back to the status that you really have to work hard for your victories and not just protect 1st turn Delver, do I win? that everyone is capable of these days.

[Esper3k]

Really? We're at the point where we're back to wanting to ban a creature that dies to almost all removal and doesn't do anything but attack?

Tarmogoyf is sad he's no longer in the banhammer spotlight.

[Tacosnape]

Best part of this thread - The best tactical argument against fixing Legacy is to use bold and large fonts.


Nope! Thanks to Phillip the format has stabilized

Is there a quote of the year thread I can nominate you for? If not, I should just order you a pizza.


I have a sneaking suspicion that WotC are going to troll us all by banning a lot of shit. Whether it needs to be or not is another thing entirely, but here's where I think we'll end up:

Out-
Griselbrand - for being fuckbusted
Show and Tell - for being increasingly powerful with each new set (same reason as SotF)
Delver of Secrets - for consistently adapting to the multitudes of hate being thrown at it and only really having a hard time against the fuckbusted deck that is probably getting banhammered itself.

In-
Land Tax
Mind Twist

I was surprised only momentarily at how much I would agree with that ban/restrict list. Then I realized it was Majikal posting it, and remember that he and I pretty much agree on everything ever related to the B&R list.

I'd still be a little nervous about Mind Twist, because I think it's secretly a blue card. And that some Duck Hunt or Faeries list is going to durdle-troll me until turn 4-5 and then just win because of it. That said, any excuse to break Divert/Misdirection is cool by me.

Also, Majikal - No Earthcraft? I think of all the unbannable cards, Earthcraft's by far the safest. Or are we just out of principal not allowing another 2-card combo that can be splashed in a blue shell?

[I am the brainwasher]

Really? We're at the point where we're back to wanting to ban a creature that dies to almost all removal and doesn't do anything but attack?

Tarmogoyf is sad he's no longer in the banhammer spotlight.

I don't think anyone suggested it'll be banned because of its powerlevel. Just going through what the DCI-merry-go-round takes a spin at.

[Mr. Safety]

Would Earthcraft make Cheerios a playable deck?

[majikal]

Also, Majikal - No Earthcraft? I think of all the unbannable cards, Earthcraft's by far the safest. Or are we just out of principal not allowing another 2-card combo that can be splashed in a blue shell?
That, and the fact that I actually play Earthcraft on a pretty regular basis in EDH and have come to realize that I win every single time it resolves, often on the spot, with or without Squirrel Nest.

I think it's dangerous in Elves, Enchantress, and probably also some blue bullshit. Really, two-card kill combos that can't be disrupted with Bolt or Swords to Plowshares are probably the kind of thing that shouldn't exist in Legacy (and I can't think of any that do, for that matter).

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I go out on a limb here and say that all those

DEAL WITH IT

clowns, are either playing the deck(s) by themselves, or are just plane ignorant and fail to see that their lack of skill is the reason why their testing seems fair or completeley balanced.
It is just the god damn truth that "combo-decks" (and I shudder while I write the word combo here) that abuse S&T doesn't have to jump through all the loops like every other deck, combo or not, has to in this format.
Well, except Belcher. But this is a complete different story.
So do I spam 24/7 "Your deck's fucked @ 20th, DEAL WITH IT" ? No I don't, so pls spare your nonsense as well. Gees... .

Maybe the reason that you can't win is that you lack skill. :wink:

[joemauer]

I go out on a limb here and say that all those

DEAL WITH IT

clowns, are either playing the deck(s) by themselves, or are just plane ignorant and fail to see that their lack of skill is the reason why their testing seems fair or completeley balanced.
It is just the god damn truth that "combo-decks" (and I shudder while I write the word combo here) that abuse S&T doesn't have to jump through all the loops like every other deck, combo or not, has to in this format.
Well, except Belcher. But this is a complete different story.
So do I spam 24/7 "Your deck's fucked @ 20th, DEAL WITH IT" ? No I don't, so pls spare your nonsense as well. Gees... .

Please elaborate. I am having a hard time seeing the correlation between people not knowing the workings of aviation machines and the DCI's current B&R list.

[majikal]

Please elaborate. I am having a hard time seeing the correlation between people not knowing the workings of aviation machines and the DCI's current B&R list.
Remember, kids, you haven't won the argument until you have pointed out any and all spelling errors.

[mike1987]

Hopefully they are smart enough to ban S&T now, which they failed to do at the last bannings.
I think that Delver gets banned isn't too far away from happening. It might be a surprise, but I would be 100% fine with this, even if it is (yet) too unreasonable.
I would not be too sad to see Canadian Threshold going back to the status that you really have to work hard for your victories and not just protect 1st turn Delver, do I win? that everyone is capable of these days.

I dont see delver being ban though, there is just so much ways one can deal with it in legacy. It's just the deck as a whole that makes delver shine.

[majikal]

I dont see delver being ban though, there is just so much ways one can deal with it in legacy. It's just the deck as a whole that makes delver shine.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tierdecks.php?anio=2012&mes=7

RUG Delver has been a known entity longer than Maverick has, and yet it still dominating by a very wide margin. Obviously there aren't very many ways to deal with it. You can theorycraft all you want, but the fact is hate doesn't exist for Delver.

[Telperion]

The SCG invitational is looking really interesting. The metagame breakdown shows the expected increase of control (BUG and stoneblade) that would help combat RUG and Griselbrand decks:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/standard_and_legacy_metagame_b.html

A lot of the successful players are metagaming with Gilded Drake and surgical extraction. Unfortunately, as the players have a composite record for both formats, it's hard to tell what really dominated the tournament. Can't wait to see this new U/B delver list.

[joemauer]

Remember, kids, you haven't won the argument until you have pointed out any and all spelling errors.

Yes, I win!

[Kich867]

Maybe the reason that you can't win is that you lack skill. :wink:

Baaa-zing? Got 'em?

Playing against show and tell is functionally identical to Go Fish. There is no skill whatsoever to be shown on either side of the table.

Duress.
*shows hand*
I'll take a <thing that wins the game>.
*discards thing that wins the game*

I find playing against my friend's pet deck, a mono green ramp deck that he enforces to be all green, old border, black border cards that revolves around Pattern of Rebirth and/or ramp to play Thorn Elemental and company, a more thought provoking and more strategically deep game than Show and Tell. You actually have to make decisions. Fancy that.

[I am the brainwasher]

Baaa-zing?
Playing against show and tell is functionally identical to Go Fish. There is no skill whatsoever to be shown on either side of the table.

This.
That is one of the reasons why I dislike those decks heavily. If you aren't plain stupid and tap yourself out, it is most of the time based on factors that are pure variance, favouring the deck that has disruption for the opposing draws/counterstrategy. Meh.

[Kich867]

Top 8:

1 RUG Delver
1 Merfolk
1 UW Control
1 UW Stoneblade
2 Reanimator
2 Esper Stoneblade

Ah, look at that. Zero main deck S&T and 8 Griselbrand. But there were 12 Stoneforge Mystics. Can't wait to see how many of you Chicken Littles jump on the "ban Mystic" train.

Yes, it's only one tournament, but the fact remains - formats adapt, people. It's smart to give it time for that to happen before calling for bannings. If Griselbargain is still dominating in September, then fine, ban him. If S&T is crapping on everything by then (and it certainly didn't at this Invitational), then give it the axe in September.

I mean, damn. All you have to do is look at the poll at the top of this page to realize that a number of you people are incredibly stupid when it comes to calling for bannings. Let Legacy be Legacy and sort itself out. It usually does, and it always takes time.

TLDR: Chill the f*** out, people.

Also, in before someone acts like my post count weakens my point when it actually doesn't.

That poll is years old. Don't post trash like the bolded section if you're going to post here.

Show and Tell not making showings doesn't make the card balanced or fun to play against in any regard.

I mean, that's a reasonable thing to assume, right? That despite a card's power level it not being in a top 8 (one) doesn't necessarily prove that it's perfectly balanced and acceptable in the game?

That perhaps if you take into account what the card actually does and not how often it's played, that it's a universally unfun card to deal with that will only get worse and worse as time goes on, and it's prevalence doesn't matter?

[Kich867]

The poll being years old doesn't change the fact the the majority of calls for bans are unfounded, pointless, and ultimately stupid. I will post that fact all day long.

Whether S&T is an unfun card to play against is nothing more than your opinion, an opinion that not everyone shares. Believe it or not, the fact that strategies like S&T or even long combo turns such as in High Tide exist is what some people like about Legacy, including myself. Whether S&T gets worse at time goes on is something that will remain to be seen, considering that playable answers to it can be printed. Assuming that can't happen is short-sightedness on your part.

Neither S&T or Griselbrand are oppressive right now, and therefore don't need to be banned in four days. That's the point I'm making.

Functional playable answers to the deck aren't very realistic. Playable answers would be a creature that kills a creature when it enters play, if it's Emrakul, that sucks for them and you might pull through it. Until they drop sneak attack and Griselbrand you.

You can't print a card that answers both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack.

Just because it's not oppressive right now (which is kinda bullshit), isn't a good reason to not ban it.

[joemauer]

A lot of cards that were put on the Legacy banned list were never oppressive. They are a bunch of reasons cards get put on that list. Both Griselbrand & Show and Tell meet criteria to be banned.

Show and Tell: It is a one card combo. See Tinker, Oath of Druids, Hermit Druid, Survival of the Fittest, or Flash on the banned list. Barring unusual circumstances all say I win if resolved. In fact I think Show and Tell is more broken than Tinker. Really what can you Tinker into play that is really that scary now a days? Is there a Legacy legal artifact more dangerous than Emrakul or Griselbrand? Serious question.

Griselbrand: Powerful draw engine. See Land Tax, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, or Library of Alexandria. His card draw power is ranked lower than the two Necro enchantments, but probably higher than Land Tax and Library.

[dontbiteitholmes]

You can't print a card that answers both Show and Tell and Sneak Attack.




White should get a hatebear that says something like "Whenever a creature enters play if it was not cast from hand exile it unless it's controller pays X where X is it's casting cost"


Also Humility Exists and Reanimator is probably the superior deck.

[Kich867]

Also Humility Exists and Reanimator is probably the superior deck.

Reanimator is the superior deck against that deck and gets kind of owned by graveyard hate (which is a common sideboard anyways). Humility is easy to deal with, they'll adapt, rapidly.

So we go cycling through us trying to find answers that they can't really deal with that well and them using very, very easy means to stop it. Humility means they can't put a clock on you and you can't put a clock on them. They get an emrakul and a griselbrand down, bounce humility and swing for the win. They'll have time to set that up and they sure as hell have the dig for it between brainstorm and ponder and fetches.

Trying to break the symmetry of Show and Tell isn't the answer. Hatebears and enchantments are easy for red and blue to deal with if you only need one swing to win. They board in easy, cheap solutions to our highly specific and targeted hate that holds our sideboards hostage.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Reanimator is the superior deck against that deck and gets kind of owned by graveyard hate (which is a common sideboard anyways). Humility is easy to deal with, they'll adapt, rapidly.

So we go cycling through us trying to find answers that they can't really deal with that well and them using very, very easy means to stop it. Humility means they can't put a clock on you and you can't put a clock on them. They get an emrakul and a griselbrand down, bounce humility and swing for the win. They'll have time to set that up and they sure as hell have the dig for it between brainstorm and ponder and fetches.

Trying to break the symmetry of Show and Tell isn't the answer. Hatebears and enchantments are easy for red and blue to deal with if you only need one swing to win. They board in easy, cheap solutions to our highly specific and targeted hate that holds our sideboards hostage.

His comment was that it's impossible to print a card that hoses both S&T and Sneak Attack, which is just false.

Reanimator is superior to S&T game 1 against most decks as well in my opinion. The combo is faster and easier to land and you have more disruption (and very few decks run MD GY hate) as well as a variety of fattys some of which are better in niche situations (like the mirror for instance). Reanimator is slightly worse vs. most decks game 2 because of GY hate, but the deck is certainly still powerful regardless and there are numerous ways to play around GY hate. Also Reanimator is highly favored vs. Sneak&Show and if the Invitational is any indication everyone good already realizes this fact and my prediction is already coming true. So as long as Reanimator is played expect to see less and less Sneak/Show making the deck a non-issue if things continue down this path.

[Kich867]

His comment was that it's impossible to print a card that hoses both S&T and Sneak Attack, which is just false.

Reanimator is superior to S&T game 1 against most decks as well in my opinion. The combo is faster and easier to land and you have more disruption (and very few decks run MD GY hate) as well as a variety of fattys some of which are better in niche situations (like the mirror for instance). Reanimator is slightly worse vs. most decks game 2 because of GY hate, but the deck is certainly still powerful regardless and there are numerous ways to play around GY hate. Also Reanimator is highly favored vs. Sneak&Show and if the Invitational is any indication everyone good already realizes this fact and my prediction is already coming true. So as long as Reanimator is played expect to see less and less Sneak/Show making the deck a non-issue if things continue down this path.

This just goes down to the idea that whether it's prevalent or not shouldn't be the ruling on why it's banned; if no one plays it that's fine, but it's still a problem to the format. It should still be banned, it's going to get worse as they print more silly YuGiOh creatures (they have only up to go from here..).

And apologies for speaking in absolutes on the internet. I know how hard that can be to ignore sometimes. God damn wrong people on the internet.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This just goes down to the idea that whether it's prevalent or not shouldn't be the ruling on why it's banned; if no one plays it that's fine, but it's still a problem to the format. It should still be banned, it's going to get worse as they print more silly YuGiOh creatures (they have only up to go from here..).

And apologies for speaking in absolutes on the internet. I know how hard that can be to ignore sometimes. God damn wrong people on the internet.

If something doesn't see play that is a pretty good indication it shouldn't be banned. I can't imagine they could print anything else at this point that would make the cut for Show & Tell. I know I've said that before but really at this point what else could they print. Also on a related note, it's still too early to demands bannings, but if anything needs to be banned it is going to be GBrand.

[majikal]

The SCG Invitational is not a valid metric by which to measure Legacy'y health. Remember the tournament is half Standard, and they don't separate the decklists by best performance per format - it's just a composite of best performance overall.

[mini1337s]

the scg invitational is not a valid metric by which to measure legacy's health.
qft

[Vacrix]

His comment was that it's impossible to print a card that hoses both S&T and Sneak Attack, which is just false.
Agreed. That shouldn't be THAT hard.

(card name) BB
Creature - Vampire
Whenever a creature comes into play, that player sacrifices that creature unless he or she pays life equal to its mana cost.
2/1

(would be pretty good against a deck like Goblins too that wants to play stuff that costs 3 to 5 mana, but taking 15 from Emrakul is kinda boss. get some discard in to slow down the deck and it won't be able to drop Emrakul.)

or...

(card name) 1U
Enchantment
When a creature comes into play, sacrifice ~. If you do, gain control of that creature.

(standstill for creatures)

[I am the brainwasher]

(card name) 1U
Enchantment
When a creature comes into play, sacrifice ~. If you do, gain control of that creature.

I'd love to see such a card, even though it would be a bit undercosted for 1U IMO.

Would it work against Show and Tell in terms of when both permanents enter the battlefield and its trigger? Not quite sure by this specific wording.

[salvor]

I'd love to see such a card, even though it would be a bit undercosted for 1U IMO.

Would it work against Show and Tell in terms of when both permanents enter the battlefield and its trigger? Not quite sure by this specific wording.

You will get to stack two "when creature etb" triggers (since you're the controler of enchantement), so you'll be able to chose which creature you'll control.

[mini1337s]

Couldn't they just print Control Magic as an enchantment?

2UU - Enchantment
Sacrifice: Gain control of target creature.


And yes, I recognize that this would always be first picked in limited :D

[Final Fortune]

His comment was that it's impossible to print a card that hoses both S&T and Sneak Attack, which is just false.

Reanimator is superior to S&T game 1 against most decks as well in my opinion. The combo is faster and easier to land and you have more disruption (and very few decks run MD GY hate) as well as a variety of fattys some of which are better in niche situations (like the mirror for instance). Reanimator is slightly worse vs. most decks game 2 because of GY hate, but the deck is certainly still powerful regardless and there are numerous ways to play around GY hate. Also Reanimator is highly favored vs. Sneak&Show and if the Invitational is any indication everyone good already realizes this fact and my prediction is already coming true. So as long as Reanimator is played expect to see less and less Sneak/Show making the deck a non-issue if things continue down this path.

Regardless of whether or not it's Sneak/Show or Reanimator, both decks are abusing Griselbrand and Show&Tell so it doesn't really change our ban candidates. I still think Sneak/Show edges out Reanimator also, because even tho' Reanimator has the edge game 1 it has to deal with graveyard hate for games 2 and 3 in the head to head match up and vs the rest of the field. It actually makes me wonder if Dredge is the dark horse here, because it benefits significantly when Reanimator dictates the graveyard hate and SBs move to Surgical Extraction, or even better, Faerie Macabre and the switch from Elesh Norn to Blazing Archon means the Flayer of the Hatebound lists can still win thru' the "lock"

[Tacosnape]

I can't imagine they could print anything else at this point that would make the cut for Show & Tell.

Did you imagine they'd print Griselbrand? Did people years ago imagine they'd print Emrakul?

Give Wizards long enough and they'll print something even more nuts. Wouldn't be surprised to see this somewhere in the next block:

Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16::b::b::b::b: - (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13

EDIT: Also, Invitationals have never been actually representative of metagames, for whatever reason.

SECOND EDIT: Kenjawn's really not all that powerful, anyway. You can always just counter the enabler. And it still goes down to Humility and Ixidron. And there's plenty of hospitals that offer chemo treatments. And you can always get a relative to donate you half of their liver if they're a match. People should quit whining and learn to adapt.

[PascalF]

The SCG Invitational is not a valid metric by which to measure Legacy'y health. Remember the tournament is half Standard, and they don't separate the decklists by best performance per format - it's just a composite of best performance overall.

I agree with you, majikal.

But lets pretend for a moment that it is:

The top 16 decks were 4 griselbrand decks, 11 other blue decks and 1 maverick.

Lets take a quick look at the maindeck of these decks:

Decks playing force: 15 (8 in the top 8)
Decks playing daze+force: 8 (5 in the top 8)
Decks playing spell pierce+force: 12 (5 in the top 8)
Decks playing force and targeted discard: 5 (4 in the top 8)
(This number goes up to 8 (6 in the top 8) if you count Vendilion clique)
Decks playing brainstorm: 14 (7 in the top 8)
Decks playing griselbrand: 4(2 in the top 8)
Decks not playing blue: 1 (0 in the top 8)

I think it`s fair to say that each of the 16 is either tuned to fight griselbrand combo (mostly via counters/hand disruption, but even the maverick deck played fauna shaman/linvala/peacekeeper main) or griselbrand combo.

So it´s good that this event is not representative, because to me it looks like a Griselbrand v anti-griselbrand format.

[rxavage]

I agree with you, majikal.

But lets pretend for a moment that it is:

The top 16 decks were 4 griselbrand decks, 11 other blue decks and 1 maverick.

Lets take a quick look at the maindeck of these decks:

Decks playing force: 15 (8 in the top 8)
Decks playing daze+force: 8 (5 in the top 8)
Decks playing spell pierce+force: 12 (5 in the top 8)
Decks playing force and targeted discard: 5 (4 in the top 8)
(This number goes up to 8 (6 in the top 8) if you count Vendilion clique)
Decks playing brainstorm: 14 (7 in the top 8)
Decks playing griselbrand: 4(2 in the top 8)
Decks not playing blue: 1 (0 in the top 8)

I think it`s fair to say that each of the 16 is either tuned to fight griselbrand combo (mostly via counters/hand disruption, but even the maverick deck played fauna shaman/linvala/peacekeeper main) or griselbrand combo.

So it´s good that this event is not representative, because to me it looks like a Griselbrand v anti-griselbrand format.


AS opposed to the Mav vs anti-mav format of months previous? This can be done with just about any top tier deck. But it's pretty known that the SCG dudes would be on Reanimator so that kind of skews thing a little.

[Tacosnape]

Decks not playing blue: 1 (0 in the top 8)


This is kind of the major point of why I think it might take more than one banning to fix this format.

Even if one thing goes, though, maybe there's hope for improvement.

EDIT: Also, fuck Mav vs. Anti-Mav shit. There's a trillion ways to beat Maverick, and I can tune any deck to put up a good fight against it. Beating Maverick and beating RUG Delver and/or Sneaky Show are not even the same discussion.

[nedleeds]

Brainstorm goes 16 for 18. That seems balanced. Decks with like 8 colored mana producers are navigating 8 round tourneys. Earthcraft, Mind Twist and freaking Black Vise are banned. This is getting laughable. Defenders of Brainstorm are starting to sound like religious zealots ... answering the unanswerable with stuff like, 'it defines the format', 'it's a pillar', 'i woud quit' and other indirect non-answers that have no relationship to the criteria used to ban cards.

[Snap_Keep]

Duals define the format, they are a pillar and are in most legacy decks. I would quit if the banned duals. Should we ban those too?

Duals and Brainstorm are the part of the core of the format, why not play a format without Brainstorm if you're so tired of it?

[Star|Scream]

Did you imagine they'd print Griselbrand? Did people years ago imagine they'd print Emrakul?

Give Wizards long enough and they'll print something even more nuts. Wouldn't be surprised to see this somewhere in the next block:

Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16::b::b::b::b: - (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13


lulz

[wizard_of_gore]

Brainstorm goes 16 for 18. That seems balanced. Decks with like 8 colored mana producers are navigating 8 round tourneys. Earthcraft, Mind Twist and freaking Black Vise are banned. This is getting laughable. Defenders of Brainstorm are starting to sound like religious zealots ... answering the unanswerable with stuff like, 'it defines the format', 'it's a pillar', 'i woud quit' and other indirect non-answers that have no relationship to the criteria used to ban cards.

"Brainstorm whinners" and "brainstorm defenders" are both annoying.
Altough, brainstorm whinners are more annoying than defenders. I don't know which side is in right, but the fact is that both side are so fuckin boring with arguing about one stupid ordinary card in format. Brainstorm fix your hand! SO FUCKING WHAT?

16 of 16 decks played fetch lands, so, how about that we ban fetchlands? There are no chance for non-fetchland deck to top 16 because flooded strand and scalding tarn are so unfair. I think we have problem with format. Swords to plowshares?????? it can take any creature for W only???? SO unfair! lets ban stp!!!!

[Gheizen64]

"Brainstorm whinners" and "brainstorm defenders" are both annoying.
Altough, brainstorm whinners are more annoying than defenders. I don't know which side is in right, but the fact is that both side are so fuckin boring with arguing about one stupid ordinary card in format. Brainstorm fix your hand! SO FUCKING WHAT?

16 of 16 decks played fetch lands, so, how about that we ban fetchlands? There are no chance for non-fetchland deck to top 16 because flooded strand and scalding tarn are so unfair. I think we have problem with format. Swords to plowshares?????? it can take any creature for W only???? SO unfair! lets ban stp!!!!

Wow such a new and well thought argument.

[wizard_of_gore]

@gheizen

Well, there is no difference in arguments. If someone going to complain about XX cards being in top 16, why not arguing about other XX cards in top 16....
BLUE COLOR is not archetype, strategy, deck...
It's stupid to arguing about COLORS in one eternal format, where 95% decks are splashing other color for cards just for their efficiency....

It's your problem if you wanna force a mono green deck, just because you want to play a MONO GREEN deck with bad cards like harmonize and beast within in place for draw/quality and removal. And people don't like playing with bad cards, when you can just throw in couple of duals and fetches and play brainstorm and swords to plowshares /lightning bolt.
Other decks without brainstorm, play WITHOUT brainstorm because THEY DON'T NEED IT and has other mechanism to manipulate the game in their favor, but NOT because they WANT TO BE A DECK WITHOUT BRAINSTORM....

[AriLax]

If anything, Griselbrand goes over Show and Tell. There are a million cards that let you cheat a fatty into play, but only Griselbrand does what he does (wins the game immediately and can't be raced). The closest things are Iona and Jin, but Iona is easily answered at card parity and Jin gives you a window to kill it.

[thefringthing]

I feel like banning Griselbrand instead of Show and Tell would be a bit like banning Vengevine instead of Survival of the Fittest. Show and Tell is inherently a "broken" effect, and it looks like Wizards is going to keep printing huge splashy game-ending fatties on a regular basis. It would be sad to hurt cool decks like Dream Halls in the process, but I feel like Show and Tell must inevitably leave our format eventually.

[Gheizen64]

@gheizen

Well, there is no difference in arguments. If someone going to complain about XX cards being in top 16, why not arguing about other XX cards in top 16....
BLUE COLOR is not archetype, strategy, deck...
It's stupid to arguing about COLORS in one eternal format, where 95% decks are splashing other color for cards just for their efficiency....

It's your problem if you wanna force a mono green deck, just because you want to play a MONO GREEN deck with bad cards like harmonize and beast within in place for draw/quality and removal. And people don't like playing with bad cards, when you can just thrown couple of duals and fetches and play brainstorm and swords to plowshares /lightning bolt.


Just because i'm in the mood:



Does FoW let you keep an otherwise unkeepable hand. No. Does FoW get played in every combo deck. No. Is FoW a fair answer to targeted discard. Yes. Is FoW a good top deck when you are losing. No.

But regardless ubiquity isn't the only argument. It's raw power level. I'd say Force of Will is a card that is close being ban worthy but can't affect board state, requires a reasonably heavy commitment to blue, and is most of the time draining to an important resource (your hand). Of course having brainstorm can gas up your hand again for the low low cost of U and sending back a sandbagged land and fetching.


Brainstorm being a skill-tester is one of the biggest lies of this format. You know what's ten thousand times more skill intensive? Portent, Top, Ponder. Just by being sorceries, they involve a much more complex decision tree.
Brainstorm isn't the most skill intensive card of the format. Brainstorm require you to cast it when u have a fetch open. Put the two worst card on top, shuffle. Top require one million more decisions, especially in early game by virtue of having a cost for seeing the top 3. Being an instant doesn't make a card more skill intensive, it's the opposite, since you can almost always play it at the right moment, whereas you couldn't with a sorcery and you'd have to ponder the opportunity cost of tapping mana on your turn.

Force of will require a big investment to blue, is a pretty bad topdeck, and is bad in some matchups where you don't want card-disadvantage whereas card advantage/selection is never bad. Also force of will existing mean Belcher and other similar non-protected combo decks sucks.

Fetchlands are 10 cards, and if you think that banning 10 cards when u could ban 1 to get a similar effect (less consistent manabases) is a good idea, well you have your opinion man, but that's not mine.
Duals ARE Legacy.

Also, unban Tax, Twist, Vise, Jar and Earthcraft plz.



Best fixers in a world without BS would probably be Ponder, Top and GSZ. Or just play more card drawing, since BS wasn't exactly a T1 play before.

Just a couple.

[wizard_of_gore]

About baning fetchlands... this was sarcasm... :rolleyes:

[nedleeds]

Duals define the format, they are a pillar and are in most legacy decks. I would quit if the banned duals. Should we ban those too?

Duals and Brainstorm are the part of the core of the format, why not play a format without Brainstorm if you're so tired of it?

Any deck can play duals. Any deck can play wasteland. Only decks with islands get to savagely cheat their mana, get free mulligans, and laugh at discard by sporting brainstorm. I do play other formats, namely Vintage ... where Brainstorm is rightly restricted. Also, points for using the hollow, 'pillar' non-argument, its up there with skill intensive and format defining as one of my favorite hollow statements.

[Tao]

Just a little bit on the "but it is only a cantrip why would you ban it???" argument. LSV arguing for banning Ponder in Standard in this video:

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/magic-tv-show-131-pondering-standard-bannings-and-more-magic-cruise-2012/

This would get Ponder (a card similar to Brainstorm yet multiple times worse) banned in all important format except Legacy. Despite only being a cantrip. Despite there not even being any Fetchlands or other useful ways to shuffle the Library in Standard.

[rxavage]

Just a little bit on the "but it is only a cantrip why would you ban it???" argument. LSV arguing for banning Ponder in Standard in this video:

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/magic-tv-show-131-pondering-standard-bannings-and-more-magic-cruise-2012/

This would get Ponder (a card similar to Brainstorm yet multiple times worse) banned in all important format except Legacy. Despite only being a cantrip. Despite there not even being any Fetchlands or other useful ways to shuffle the Library in Standard.

That's just to prevent Snapcaster from being blamed and to appease the people that want a banning to weaken Delver. But that isn't about Legacy, comparing pineapples to oranges.

[majikal]

If anything, Griselbrand goes over Show and Tell. There are a million cards that let you cheat a fatty into play, but only Griselbrand does what he does (wins the game immediately and can't be raced). The closest things are Iona and Jin, but Iona is easily answered at card parity and Jin gives you a window to kill it.
Let's not kid ourselves. They are probably both going down if they are going to pull the trigger.

[Tao]

That's just to prevent Snapcaster from being blamed and to appease the people that want a banning to weaken Delver. But that isn't about Legacy, comparing pineapples to oranges.

I wonder if you guys REALLY think this way. That there are individual arguments for banning cantrips left and right in every format but that the reasons for these bans just magically don't apply to Legacy?

[Star|Scream]

I wonder if you guys REALLY think this way. That there are individual arguments for banning cantrips left and right in every format but that the reasons for these bans just magically don't apply to Legacy?

Brainsterm it's a pillerr UV der format.

[Snap_Keep]

Any deck can play duals. Any deck can play wasteland. Only decks with islands get to savagely cheat their mana, get free mulligans, and laugh at discard by sporting brainstorm. I do play other formats, namely Vintage ... where Brainstorm is rightly restricted. Also, points for using the hollow, 'pillar' non-argument, its up there with skill intensive and format defining as one of my favorite hollow statements.

Huh, I thought part of the attraction of legacy was being able to play the iconic Dual / Fetchland manabase allowing decks to easily splash colors. Since any deck can play duals and fetches that means any deck can splash for Brainstorm. I'm not trolling, I actually want to know... Why aren't you just playing Modern if Brainstorm makes you so mad? Brainstorm and duals/fetches are the core of legacy. You don't see me on vintage forums complaining about the P9 are too OP and that every good deck has to play Black Lotus and Recall.

Star Scream... Do you ever actually say anything interesting or compelling or do you always act like a retard?

[Star|Scream]

Huh, I thought part of the attraction of legacy was being able to play the iconic Dual / Fetchland manabase allowing decks to easily splash colors. Since any deck can play duals and fetches that means any deck can splash for Brainstorm. I'm not trolling, I actually want to know... Why aren't you just playing Modern if Brainstorm makes you so mad? Brainstorm and duals/fetches are the core of legacy. You don't see me on vintage forums complaining about the P9 are too OP and that every good deck has to play Black Lotus and Recall.

Star Scream... Do you ever actually say anything interesting or compelling or do you always act like a retard?

I tried. I really did. But I soon realized the type of person I primarily disagreed with has problems comprehending basic logic. So now I mainly just troll.

EDIT: also the first paragraph you wrote is exactly the same as my last post.

[Tao]

Brainstorm and duals/fetches are the core of legacy. You don't see me on vintage forums complaining about the P9 are too OP and that every good deck has to play Black Lotus and Recall.


Just to make sure that I don't misinterpret what you are saying: your point is that Brainstorm - just like the power 9 - should stay in the format despite being obviously overpowered because of nostalgic reasons?

[Julian23]

Just to make sure that I don't misinterpret what you are saying: your point is that Brainstorm - just like the power 9 - should stay in the format despite being obviously overpowered because of nostalgic reasons?

Despite my own sentiment that Brainstorm should stay legal, it's kinda hard to draw a comparison to Vintage. Even if something was so fucking freaking overpowered it would still stay legal in Vintage. Read: Yawgmoth's Will / Tinker.

[sdematt]

I feel like banning Griselbrand instead of Show and Tell would be a bit like banning Vengevine instead of Survival of the Fittest. Show and Tell is inherently a "broken" effect, and it looks like Wizards is going to keep printing huge splashy game-ending fatties on a regular basis. It would be sad to hurt cool decks like Dream Halls in the process, but I feel like Show and Tell must inevitably leave our format eventually.

I agree with the fact that axing Show and Tell leaves a large hole where all the Dream Halls/Hive Mind/other decks come out to play, while dealing with the Griselbrand issue. However, I feel this is a lot like lobbing the leg off at the knee for an ingrown toenail.

Banning only Show and Tell does this, but also leaves Griselbrand to be Reanimated or Hypergenesised or Eureka'd into play, and the "problem" hasn't been solved.

Banning Sneak Attack also does something, but not really what the format is going for.


I feel like banning Griselbrand instead of Show and Tell would be a bit like banning Vengevine instead of Survival of the Fittest

However, I strongly disagree with the above statement. Banning Griselbrand is banning the problem card here, like Vengevine. I'm not here to get into a Survival discussion, but I don't think Survival would be a real deck in the meta today without the Vengevine angle of attack. Even then, Surgical is a card now. I understand their reasoning in banning a powerful engine, which is why I would understand if Griselbrand gets banned. I wish in a way we could have a bit more time to find a "fix" for Griselbrand, but unfortunately, I don't think we will. Draw 7 for 7 is pretty good, as they probably expected.

-Matt

[nedleeds]

Just to make sure that I don't misinterpret what you are saying: your point is that Brainstorm - just like the power 9 - should stay in the format despite being obviously overpowered because of nostalgic reasons?

Thats what he's saying essentially. He cant refute my arguments about the cards power level and ubiquity. He trolls saying I'm 'mad'. He says brainstorm, a blue card, is the 'core' of legacy. Which of course doesn't actually mean anything. Then he calls me a pussy and tells me to play modern becuae he cant refute the facts about the card. Tells me that playing islands, and starting every deck with 4 copies of the same overpowered colored card is a good thing. Makes inane comparisons to lands ... which are required when building a deck and saying they are ubiquitous and thus should be banned also.

[Telperion]

Griselbrand fueled combo winter is in full effect, and it seems that 2 maverick decks, elves, and goblins are in the scg open's top 8...

[Michael Keller]

Here's the problem as I see it:

Show and Tell, at its very core, is an inherently broken accelerate printed in an era where something like Griselbrand or Emrakul (from a mechanical and design standpoint) would be unthinkable. Over time, it has steadily increased in power to the point where it has gotten incredibly good - but not yet to the broken ceiling it can hit.

That is, until, Griselbrand was printed.

But here's the anomaly: Griselbrand actually is broken itself too to the point where even without Show and Tell, it still creates incredibly potent, devastating circumstances. It is virtually invincible. Show and Tell right now is a victim of circumstance. Griselbrand is a creature, which makes it incredibly diverse to cheat into play using various strategies like Hypergenesis, Eureka and Reanimate.

Show and Tell is fundamentally broken and is a card with no ceiling as to what potential it can reach the more the Magic universe expands. However, in this extremely rare set of circumstances, Griselbrand actually overshadows its enabler - which is why people are turning their heads back and pointing the finger at Show and Tell and saying, "Ban you!"

TL;DR: Show and Tell would be fine - for right now - in a format without Griselbrand. Griselbrand might be fine in a format without Show and Tell. Grave-hate is main-decked in Vintage all the time. Perhaps if Griselbrand stays legal, we might be seeing this happen to Legacy.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Griselbrand fueled combo winter is in full effect, and it seems that 2 maverick decks, elves, and goblins are in the scg open's top 8...

In before "That doesn't count because..."

[rxavage]

Griselbrand is just Lord of the Pit's bad-ass brother.

[Michael Keller]

I'm telling you! People should just play Brand in Sneak and Show and like it!

[aahz]

Griselbrand fueled combo winter is in full effect, and it seems that 2 maverick decks, elves, and goblins are in the scg open's top 8...
You forgot to mention Enchantress!

[Telperion]

Time to break out your wraths and engineered plagues. Looking forward to DCI killing 3-4 decks on Wednesday. It seems reanimator was huge in the invitational which absolutely crushes sneak attack. Control resurged and grave hate was everywhere. And then fair decks, as far as the eye can see. So people adjusted to the metagame, was it too late?

[Snap_Keep]

Thats what he's saying essentially. He cant refute my arguments about the cards power level and ubiquity. He trolls saying I'm 'mad'. He says brainstorm, a blue card, is the 'core' of legacy. Which of course doesn't actually mean anything. Then he calls me a pussy and tells me to play modern becuae he cant refute the facts about the card. Tells me that playing islands, and starting every deck with 4 copies of the same overpowered colored card is a good thing. Makes inane comparisons to lands ... which are required when building a deck and saying they are ubiquitous and thus should be banned also.

I can see you're more interested in continuing your circle jerk then discussing this any further and so this is the point where I lose interest. Good catch on that part where I called you a pussy though.

[menace13]

Thats what he's saying essentially. He cant refute my arguments about the cards power level and ubiquity. He trolls saying I'm 'mad'. He says brainstorm, a blue card, is the 'core' of legacy. Which of course doesn't actually mean anything. Then he calls me a pussy and tells me to play modern becuae he cant refute the facts about the card. Tells me that playing islands, and starting every deck with 4 copies of the same overpowered colored card is a good thing. Makes inane comparisons to lands ... which are required when building a deck and saying they are ubiquitous and thus should be banned also.

Brainstorm is as required as Duals/Fetches and Wastelands.

[ESG]

TL;DR: Show and Tell would be fine - for right now - in a format without Griselbrand. Griselbrand might be fine in a format without Show and Tell. Grave-hate is main-decked in Vintage all the time. Perhaps if Griselbrand stays legal, we might be seeing this happen to Legacy.

This happened at the invitational. Michael Hetrick was running two Relic of Progenitus in the main, along with Karakas, three Vendilion Clique and a fifth Plow effect. In his sideboard he had three Surgical Extraction, Flusterstorm, a fourth V. Clique and a Sower of Temptation.

In the deck check segment with Christian Valenti, he was running a Relic of Progenitus in the main, along with more counterspells and grave hate in the side.

Adam Boyd ran four Phantasmal Image in the main.

[lordofthepit]

Griselbrand is just Lord of the Pit's bad-ass brother.

Nope.

[Pippin]

Not sure if people were watching the SCG Invitational, but there were quite a few matches that underlined the problem quite clearly.

I think in the last round of swiss (or the round before last one) Eli Kassis (Sneak Tell) was playing against Maverick player. It was 1:1 and game 3. In game 3 Eli resolved early Show and Tell and put Griselbrand into play. His opponent had Knight of the Reliquary and Karakas at that point. Before Griselbrand being printed this would have been enough for Maverick to have a fighting chance (Show and Tell player needed a resolved Sneak Attack to win), this time Eli just drew a bunch of card when Griselbrand was bounced and then one-shot the Maverick player next turn with hasty Emrakul and Griselbrand...

Onto the Reanimator vs Maverick matchup. Before Griselbrand Maverick had a chance with STP and numerous other effects that gave them a chance against a resolved fatty. With Griselbrand being played it's not even funny anymore, as was evident in a Max Tietze (Reanimator) vs Maverick feature match. As soon as Griselbrand is resolved it's just game over.

I was using Maverick just as an example deck that had a fighting chance (with being non-blue) before Griselbrand was printed. Nowadays it's just either play Griselbrand or play anti-Griselbrand deck. That's insane.
I seriously wonder how dumb one has to be to design Griselbrand? It's like R&D haven't learned anything. Yawgmoth's Bargain? Oh, how about we reprint that, gave it flying, lifelink, huge body and enable draw step? Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't legal in format and it could be only played through ritual effects or something like show and tell. Griselbrand can be cheat into play more easier and is a win condition in itself.

For those that will call me out, feel free to check my posting history on these boards. I was a strong opponent of banning both Survival (I argued to ban Vengevine if something needed to be banned) and Mystical Tutor. This time I'm for immediate ban on Griselbrand which ruined the format IMO. Way worse than Survival + Vengevine ever did.

[Hopo]

This time I'm for immediate ban on Griselbrand which ruined the format IMO.

By the format do you mean Starcitygames tournament series or is there something more to that?

Just for the sake of anecdotes, yesterday my opponent had Griselbrand enter the play twice to do it's thing and he wasn't even close to winning that. If you want hyperbole, it works both ways, you know.

[Michael Keller]

By the format do you mean Starcitygames tournament series or is there something more to that?

Just for the sake of anecdotes, yesterday my opponent had Griselbrand enter the play twice to do it's thing and he wasn't even close to winning that. If you want hyperbole, it works both ways, you know.

I'm quite certain your corner-case scenario isn't true for most competitive Legacy decks exploiting Griselbrand for all its worth. You could theoretically beat an active Griselbrand in play, but it's not likely.

In almost every circumstance, drawing seven to fourteen cards lopsidedly is game over. And for as much as people do not like referencing the Open Series as a measuring stick for the format's current prevalent decks, it is in fact the largest tournament series in the United States - so I'd say it bears some weight on the vast, general stage.

That doesn't mean the level of skill in the Opens is always ridiculously high, which in many cases it's simply relatively average.

[Hopo]

I'm quite certain your corner-case scenario isn't true for most competitive Legacy decks exploiting Griselbrand for all its worth .

Hence I labelled it as an anecdote and kind of hoped that people just let it be. It's not too motivating to discuss the matter when people are talking about turn 1 draw 14's like the deck always had that, with double counter backup. And they most likely have never even faced that situation. It's nice to discuss about the potential brokenness and all but to neglect probabilities is just dumb.


And for as much as people do not like referencing the Open Series as a measuring stick for the format's current prevalent decks, it is in fact the largest tournament series in the United States - so I'd say it bears some weight on the vast, general stage.

From Europe this looks to be the problem, since I'm willing to say that all this banning nonsense revolves mainly around SCG Open results. And it is difficult to justify measures that affect the other half of the world where Griselbrand doesn't seem to be much of an problem. It definitely is a card and a good one, but by no means oppressive.

If you only look at SCG, you might have a somewhat crooked perspective on things, and that is totally understandable. Just remember that there's something else to that as well. Legacy is not SCG, of course unless you only play in SCG series. But that should be stated in a disclaimer anyway.

[Pippin]

Just for the sake of anecdotes, yesterday my opponent had Griselbrand enter the play twice to do it's thing and he wasn't even close to winning that. If you want hyperbole, it works both ways, you know.

Really? How awesome, please do share more.
On a more serious note, did you film the match so that we can watch it? I'm asking because my examples were recorded and can be watched online right now.

Also, I'm not from USA - infact I'm from Europe and SCG aside still see Griselbrand as a huge problem.

[Hopo]

Really? How awesome, please do share more.
On a more serious note, did you film the match so that we can watch it? I'm asking because my examples were recorded and can be watched online right now.

Also, I'm not from USA - infact I'm from Europe and SCG aside still see Griselbrand as a huge problem.

Honestly, I don't carry a video camera with me in GPT's. So no videos here, sorry. I'm a little surprised by this question and it makes me think if people are playing this game nowadays in MWS only?

[Awaclus]

On a more serious note, did you film the match so that we can watch it? I'm asking because my examples were recorded and can be watched online right now.
This argument is ridiculous. How does filming matches make any difference to the power level of the cards the winning player uses?

[Gheizen64]

The point is that everyone that played magic should know how hard is to win against a resolved bargain. I played against the card a fair bit, and the only correct way to fight it is to prevent it entering into play, not trying to win after it land, because, you know, card is ridiculous. And it was even in T2 where u played it alongside Skirge Familiar and Drain life, imagine in a format with FoW, Brainstorm and the likes.

But i guess someone somewhere played a match with someone else and didn't lose after griselbrand entered into play so it's all ok.

[Pippin]

This argument is ridiculous. How does filming matches make any difference to the power level of the cards the winning player uses?

It was an argument on the same level that Hopo presented his opinion at first.
My original points were argumented by specific scenarios and matches while response to that was thin air scenarios.
Hollywood sumed it nicely.

[Hopo]

It was an argument on the same level that Hopo presented his opinion at first.
My original points were argumented by specific scenarios and matches while response to that was thin air scenarios.


I'm sorry but did I promise something else than an anecdote and some hyperbole? Please, read again, this time with your eyes open:


Just for the sake of anecdotes, yesterday my opponent had Griselbrand enter the play twice to do it's thing and he wasn't even close to winning that. If you want hyperbole, it works both ways, you know.

If you think a game or even some games you witnessed proves anything, you are not fit to have the discussion regarding if a card is banworthy or not.

What does a Stifle do against a Bargain? Right, absolutely nothing. Now think a moment about Griselbrand. Correct, Stifle deals 14 to the dome.

[SaberTooth]

SnT was a deck before gizzi... but it was normal, beatable... now, it's like griselbrand it's an enabler by itself, and obviously a 7/7 lifelink with flying. Actually never played against griselbrand, because no one is playing it on my meta (a really small one, but with the old sneak and tell deck), but reading and watching... maybe the banning will be fine

[Pippin]

I'm sorry but did I promise something else than an anecdote and some hyperbole? Please, read again, this time with your eyes open:



If you think a game or even some games you witnessed proves anything, you are not fit to have the discussion regarding if a card is banworthy or not.

What does a Stifle do against a Bargain? Right, absolutely nothing. Now think a moment about Griselbrand. Correct, Stifle deals 14 to the dome.

Your arguments are quite amusing. I must admit that I never thought that Stifle can handle a 7/7 flying lifelinking monster.
Yeah, it can "deal" 7dmg in right scenario, but what prevents the Griselbrand player to attack, gain 7 life and try to use his relevant ability when needed? Ah I guess poor play skill to which you continue to hint. Is that why Griselbrand is ok? Because some people don't know how to play it, or the deck that he's a main part of?

:rolleyes:

[Tacosnape]

I'm fine with a format reset at this point. I hate Legacy at current.

While I personally love Brainstorm, I'm fine with it going away. Brainstorm's banning would do something for the format - Make 1CC targeted discard an actual decent strategy again. Show and Tell going away would mean not having to develop ridiculous strategies to stop it. And Griselbrand going away would be just fine too. Hell, I don't care if they ban all three. Whatever it takes.

In the meantime, I'mma go scrub out playing Gamekeeper + Cavern of Souls. Fuck blue.:)

[Hopo]

I must admit that I never thought that Stifle can handle a 7/7 flying lifelinking monster.

You being so hyperbolic and furious is cute, but I honestly think that you know what I mean but you just don't want to consider the option that Griselbrand is manageable. I'm now fine with that. No need to convince anyone.


Yeah, it can "deal" 7dmg in right scenario, but what prevents the Griselbrand player to attack, gain 7 life and try to use his relevant ability when needed?
My solution at the time was bounce. I understand that it doesn't always work, as I understand that sometimes Griselbrand deck just loses to whatever you are playing.


Ah I guess poor play skill to which you continue to hint. Is that why Griselbrand is ok? Because some people don't know how to play it, or the deck that he's a main part of?

Now you start to see things that aren't there. Not much to discuss here, I would say.

[f|i[p]]

Doesn't show and tell fall in the exact same category as survival of the fittest...

Survival on its own was only used by the few.. not even a top tier with Iona retainers combo.

then Vengvine came along...

SHow and tell is a good card.. then Griselbrand came along...

Survival was at least hit by graveyard hate, counter magic and enchantment hate..they couldn't run permission cards as much since they had to build decks that were creature heavy... Mana was also important for survival.

How ever show and tell is not an engine like survival is....

I don't know.. maybe wait a couple of more months...

I still think blue is too much right now...

[(nameless one)]

I have a feeling that GP:ATL is gonna be like GP: Columbus '07.

The winning deck won't feature Show and Tell but mirrors are going to be everywhere.

[rxavage]

I have a feeling that GP:ATL is gonna be like GP: Columbus '07.

The winning deck won't feature Show and Tell but mirrors are going to be everywhere.


If you mean UW miracle and RUG mirrors, I agree.

[Erdvermampfa]

Everything was fine before they banned Misstep and printed Snapcaster, Delver and Griselbrand.

[Star|Scream]

Everything was fine before they printed Misstep and printed Snapcaster, Delver and Griselbrand.


fixed that for you

[I am the brainwasher]

I have to pretty much agree with all of that.

[Julian23]

On another note, I'm sure someone should be able to retrieve the banner of the upcoming B&R announcement. Pretty, please? I remember the banning of Survival being spoiled that way.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Top 8 from the latest SCG Open

1. Goblins
2. RUG Delver
3. Elves
4. Esper Stoneblade
5. Maverick
6. Maverick
7. RUG Delver
8. Enchantress

In the top 8 lists there were:
12 Brainstorm
20 Wasteland
0 Show and Tell
12 Green Sun's Zenith
Out of a possible 32

So, no Sneak and Show in the top 8, Maverick seems to still be able to win games and Goblins wins. I guess Brainstorm isn't as necessary as people think it is.

[testing32]

Top 8 from the latest SCG Open

So, no Sneak and Show in the top 8, Maverick seems to still be able to win games and Goblins wins. I guess Brainstorm isn't as necessary as people think it is.

That is like trying to refute climate change by saying "It snowed yesterday"

[kusumoto]

Top 8 from the latest SCG Open

1. Goblins
2. RUG Delver
3. Elves
4. Esper Stoneblade
5. Maverick
6. Maverick
7. RUG Delver
8. Enchantress

In the top 8 lists there were:
12 Brainstorm
20 Wasteland
0 Show and Tell
12 Green Sun's Zenith
Out of a possible 32

So, no Sneak and Show in the top 8, Maverick seems to still be able to win games and Goblins wins. I guess Brainstorm isn't as necessary as people think it is.

The SCG site seems to make it look like 13th place was the first list w/o brainstorm at the invitational and then not another until 22nd.

Am I missing something?

EDIT: I missed the merfolk list. I guess that's one in the top 8 with no brainstorm.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

The SCG site seems to make it look like 13th place was the first list w/o brainstorm at the invitational and then not another until 22nd.

Am I missing something?

EDIT: I missed the merfolk list. I guess that's one in the top 8 with no brainstorm.

That is the Invitational not the Open. The Invitational is mixed formats 8 rounds of Legacy and 8 rounds of Standard. Then the top 8 of this invitational was Standard, so it is really hard to evaluate how well the legacy decks in the top 8 actually did.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

That is like trying to refute climate change by saying "It snowed yesterday"

LOL, when you have the kind of evidence that climate scientists have let me know. :laugh:

Also those arguments are nothing alike. My argument that Brainstorm isn't necessary to top 8 an SCG open is a demonstrable fact.

[Star|Scream]

Most experts on climate change agree that brainstorm and show and tell are broken.

[rxavage]

Most experts on climate change agree that brainstorm and show and tell are broken.

NM, previous statement was in reference to global warming.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Most experts on climate change agree that brainstorm and show and tell are broken.

That's just a liberal, socialist, communist conspiracy.

Edit: also Zionist, can't forget Zionist. George Soros etc.

[rxavage]

That's just a liberal, socialist, communist conspiracy.


So is the ban "whatever" crowd it seems.

[testing32]

So is the ban "whatever" crowd it seems.

Even Rush Limbaugh sheds a tear when he sees Griselbrand come into play off a Show and Tell.

[rxavage]

Even Rush Limbaugh sheds a tear when he sees Griselbrand come into play off a Show and Tell.

A tear of joy. But he's probably just crying because it makes him realize a piece of cardboard is more relevant than himself.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Even Rush Limbaugh sheds a tear when he sees Griselbrand come into play off a Show and Tell.

That's just the Oxycontin.

[DragoFireheart]

Calling it now. One or more of the following will get banned:

Delver of Secrets
Griselbrand
Show and Tell
Brainstorm


One or more of the following will get unbanned:

Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire


Lets see how accurate I am.

[testing32]

Calling it now. One or more of the following will get banned:

Delver of Secrets
Griselbrand
Show and Tell
Brainstorm


One or more of the following will get unbanned:

Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire


Lets see how accurate I am.

I like it. Get rid of Show and Tell and give the combo players some love with Earthcraft and Mind's Desire.

[evanmartyr]

I like it. Get rid of Show and Tell and give the combo players some love with Earthcraft and Mind's Desire.

Be kind of sad to see Show and Tell go...not because it's my favorite thing ever, but because there are nearly always decks that do the "put something crazy into play all-in woooooo!" thing Show and Tell fits in nearly all of them. Will Sneak Attack and Reanimator have the consistency they need to compete without it?

[KobeBryan]

Why get rid of show and tell? Its not like it is dominating the meta right now.

[Lord Seth]

My prediction is that they won't change anything this time. They may not want to make last-minute changes with a Legacy Grand Prix coming so quickly afterwards and there not being enough data to really determine whether they need to take action on the Show and Tell/Griselbrand front.

Speaking of which, I do find it a little funny that the cards in Avacyn Restored that people were initially predicting for possible banning turned out to have little impact while it seems (at least in what I remember about the discussions) Griselbrand didn't get much attention for a while.

[DragoFireheart]

I think I made the call that one creature would have a major impact on the format. However, I didn't think it would be Griselbrand and I didn't think the impact would be as large as he made.

So yeah, I was way off. :cry:

[dontbiteitholmes]

Not sure if people were watching the SCG Invitational, but there were quite a few matches that underlined the problem quite clearly.

I think in the last round of swiss (or the round before last one) Eli Kassis (Sneak Tell) was playing against Maverick player. It was 1:1 and game 3. In game 3 Eli resolved early Show and Tell and put Griselbrand into play. His opponent had Knight of the Reliquary and Karakas at that point. Before Griselbrand being printed this would have been enough for Maverick to have a fighting chance (Show and Tell player needed a resolved Sneak Attack to win), this time Eli just drew a bunch of card when Griselbrand was bounced and then one-shot the Maverick player next turn with hasty Emrakul and Griselbrand...

Onto the Reanimator vs Maverick matchup. Before Griselbrand Maverick had a chance with STP and numerous other effects that gave them a chance against a resolved fatty. With Griselbrand being played it's not even funny anymore, as was evident in a Max Tietze (Reanimator) vs Maverick feature match. As soon as Griselbrand is resolved it's just game over.

I was using Maverick just as an example deck that had a fighting chance (with being non-blue) before Griselbrand was printed. Nowadays it's just either play Griselbrand or play anti-Griselbrand deck. That's insane.
I seriously wonder how dumb one has to be to design Griselbrand? It's like R&D haven't learned anything. Yawgmoth's Bargain? Oh, how about we reprint that, gave it flying, lifelink, huge body and enable draw step? Yawgmoth's Bargain isn't legal in format and it could be only played through ritual effects or something like show and tell. Griselbrand can be cheat into play more easier and is a win condition in itself.

For those that will call me out, feel free to check my posting history on these boards. I was a strong opponent of banning both Survival (I argued to ban Vengevine if something needed to be banned) and Mystical Tutor. This time I'm for immediate ban on Griselbrand which ruined the format IMO. Way worse than Survival + Vengevine ever did.

For the record, before Griselbrand, Progen went in that slot so Karakas and STP are pretty irrelevant.

[feline]

Less than 36 hours before the June 20th announcement! If I had to place my bets, I'd predict 1 card getting banned in standard, nothing getting banned in type 1.5, and am leaning towards up to 2 cards being "lifted" off the banned list for type 1.5, no predictions for type 1 / modern / extended / block constructed, etc.

[DragoFireheart]

For the record, before Griselbrand, Progen went in that slot so Karakas and STP are pretty irrelevant.

Yeah, but Progenitus didn't draw 1/10 or so of their deck. At least racing Progenitus is possible.

[DarthVicious]

For the record, before Griselbrand, Progen went in that slot so Karakas and STP are pretty irrelevant.

Progenitus being harder to remove is irrelevant. He can be fought or raced. Greasy-brand draws half the remainder of your deck to not only protect himself, but win faster at the same time.

Edit: Drago beat me to it LOL

Edit 2: He would be "fairer" if you could only use his ability as a sorcery. I wouldn't mind that at all.

[Lord Seth]

less than 36 hours before the June 20th announcement! If I had to place my bets, I'd predict 1 card getting banned in standard, nothing getting banned in type 1.5, and am leaning towards up to 2 cards being "lifted" off the banned list for type 1.5, no predictions for type 1 / modern / extended / block constructed, etc.I really doubt any card will be banned in Standard. They're extremely reluctant to do so, and it takes something like Skullclamp or Jace for them to take that step.

[Michael Keller]

I could care less if anything gets banned. I just want to see something get unbanned, for Christ's sake.

[nedleeds]

I could care less if anything gets banned. I just want to see something get unbanned, for Christ's sake.

If I wielded the hammer,

Bannings: None

Unbannings:

Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Black Vise
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest

Keep your fucking brainstorms. Just spread the broken cards around a little bit.

[wolfstorm]

Once again I would love to see some unbannings.. Doubt it will happen though :/

[obituary 95]

If I wielded the hammer,

Bannings: None

Unbannings:

Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Black Vise
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest

Keep your fucking brainstorms. Just spread the broken cards around a little bit.

if all of these cards come of the ban list I will attempt to play all the cards in one deck.

my only hope is that grease-brand get the ban hammer. I also wouldn't mind show and tell getting the hammer.

Griselbrand is so strong he kicked chuck norris's ass. and wow that's bad ass

[rxavage]

That's just the Oxycontin.

I didn't want to be the one to say it but it was the first thing I thought of. Rush love's the colour blue. But in all seriousness, can we get an unbanning please?

[Pippin]

For the record, before Griselbrand, Progen went in that slot so Karakas and STP are pretty irrelevant.

You're addressing part of my post where I was discussing reanimator (with Griselbrand) vs Maverick matchup. Of course that Reanimator wasn't playing Progenitus, and STP had quite a fighting chance against half of the stuff reanimator could muster. With Griselbrand that doesn't matter since FoW is waiting just around the corner.

As for Karakas in Sneaky Tell regard. Yeah, it couldn't do much vs Progenitus but was still a valid option vs Show and Tell into Emrakul, forcing the opponent to find his Sneak Attack and resolving it. Progenitus itself wasn't that scary (but was still almost main plan vs Maverick) since it could be raced, and that was especially easy in earlier versions of Maverick that ran both Stoneforge Mystic and Baterskull.

[rxavage]

What about that tutor-able little piece of gravehate Scavenging Ooze? People stop maindecking 2-3? Or is that unfair and unrealistic?

[joemauer]

Progenitus was bad in Show and Tell because of the interactions with Sneak Attack.
Look at this way:
Progenitus+Sneak Attack=10 Damage
Progenitus+Show and Tell=two turns left for opponent

Emrakul+Sneak Attack=board wipe & 15 Damage
Emrakul+Show and Tell=one turn left for opponent

Griselbrand+Sneak Attack=draw 7-14 cards, possibly find Emrakul and win or just win with card advantage. Typically ignore Karakas here with mad card advantage.
Griselbrand+Show and Tell= three turns left for opponent, but essentially game over with mad card advantage.

You see before Griselbrand, 1 out of 4 combinations Sneak N Show had just equaled ten damage. 10 damage from a combo deck isn't exactly ideal. So 25% of the games Sneak N Show used to play weren't optimal.

I know a lot of people already knew this, but I felt I had to point this out for certain people who have said Progenitus was stronger than Griselbrand in Sneak N Show.

Also, quite a few people noticed Griselbrand was AR's best card. Only dragonfireheart was convinced Temporal Mastery was broken.

[Gheizen64]

I think it's just a matter of clocks.
Progenitus is an unaswerable, 3-turn clocks. Griselbargain is not unanswerable, but it's very close to and it's a 1-turn clock. Emrakul, for comparison, need two turns to win and is slightly more answerable (karakas, maze, creatures that tap or kill and Emrakul does nothing, while u still draw 7 with Grizz). Prog is good, but it's almost never a problem when it come down and u play an aggressive deck. It can't even block fliers. Blade control can also race it easily with Batterskull. Honestly, it's funny but a 10/10 pro everything isn't that amazing when almost all decks in the format can race it. Especially if it come off a SnT (with batterskull and KotR being widely played) and not a NO.

EDIT: also yeah, Progenitus is way worse with Sneak.

[Lord Seth]

Also, quite a few people noticed Griselbrand was AR's best card.There was some notice of that, but I (personally) don't recall seeing much of it until later on.
Only dragonfireheart was convinced Temporal Mastery was broken.Enh, he was the most prominent supporter of that claim, but he wasn't the only one.

Regardless. I don't think Griselbrand or Show and Tell will be banned this time around. It's not putting up particularly amazing results so far, and I think Wizards might want to wait until September to really make a decision on that. I doubt they'd make a move as bold as banning Brainstorm so close to really big Legacy events (if they're ever planning to at all). We might see some cards unbanned, but I don't think there will be bans in Legacy this month.

[DragoFireheart]

Regardless. I don't think Griselbrand or Show and Tell will be banned this time around. It's not putting up particularly amazing results so far, and I think Wizards might want to wait until September to really make a decision on that. I doubt they'd make a move as bold as banning Brainstorm so close to really big Legacy events (if they're ever planning to at all). We might see some cards unbanned, but I don't think there will be bans in Legacy this month.

-That didn't stop them from banning Mystical Tutor.

[feline]

About 12 hours away from the announcement, I'm still sticking with a guesstimation of 1 card getting axed in standard, nothing getting axed in type 1.5, and the possibility of a couple cards coming off the banned list for type 1.5.

[ramanujan]

My best guess is:
No changes in standard
No changes in Legacy


My hope is:
No changes in standard
Brainstorm banned in Legacy.

My fear is:
Snapcaster Banned in Standard
Show and Tell Banned in Legacy
Scion of the Ur-Dragon banned in commander (My oldest and most awesome commander deck)

[Honoluluicecaps]

Don't we usually get the banner by this point if they're banning something (I'm remember the survival and intangible virtue banners from the past)? Or do they wait until closer to midnight EST?

[Koby]

Don't we usually get the banner by this point if they're banning something (I'm remember the survival and intangible virtue banners from the past)? Or do they wait until closer to midnight EST?

WotC might be putting a tighter control over the announcement these days. We'll know in about 12 hours when they post the article. (they could very well be not including a relevant picture in the teaser)

[obituary 95]

i thought the reason we got the banner early last time was because it accidently got leaked online . i dont really think we should be expecting it.

[feline]

The "banner" will probably appear at 9 pm pacific time / midnight eastern time.

[rxavage]

Where does this "banner" or announcement first appear? Link to page?

[Star|Scream]

Is 11 more hours really too much time for you people to wait? No, let's hack the website for info!!!

[GexxX]

Is 11 more hours really too much time for you people to wait? No, let's hack the website for info!!!
Sounds like a good idea...
I want to know what get's the axe, if anything does. I can wait for a little longer, but I'm excited to see if anything gets unbanned. Maybe we can bring up some new archetype(s) and awesome intereactions or some of us have to take a deep breath and pick up another Deck since some of the existing decks' key cards got banned. It's just pure excitement for me. That's my personal reason and excuse for being nervous.

I think nothing is banworthy at the moment as legacy is concerned. Dunno about Standard - not playing it. I still predict something is coming of the list, but I can not point my finger on it - just a feeling.

[nedleeds]

Grabbed my 4th Korean Earthcraft just in case.

[sdematt]

Instead of doing some cyber attacks on the military, get foreign powers to go after Wizards. We'll tell them it's a new arm of the military that uses Magic.

-Matt

[caiomarcos]

Is 11 more hours really too much time for you people to wait? No, let's hack the website for info!!!

Believe it or not, there is a lot of money involved for dealers and stores.

Whoever gets the information first can dump the soon-to-be banned in regular prices or can buyout the soon-to-be unbanned for low prices.

[Michael Keller]

Any last-second predictions?

[Arsenal]

Whoever gets the information first can dump the soon-to-be banned in regular prices or can buyout the soon-to-be unbanned for low prices.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

[caiomarcos]

Any last-second predictions?

I think they will unban Bargain. Or ban Grieselbrand. Just in case, I'm ready!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7zUGlZcHpvE/SNaMzn-WTFI/AAAAAAAADLI/Vpg-nQ9HlcU/s640/IMG_1715.jpg

[John Cox]

Instead of doing some cyber attacks on the military, get foreign powers to go after Wizards. We'll tell them it's a new arm of the military that uses Magic.

-Matt

Sigged

[Aggro_zombies]

Any last-second predictions?
No bans tonight.

Maybe in three months there will be a ban on SnT and/or a reban of Entomb. Wizards has shown they prefer to ban enablers to banning the proximate troublemakers, and Griselly Bear would be fair in this format without good ways to cheat him into play.

There is an extremely small but non-zero chance Wizards decides to upend the format and bans Brainstorm. However, I strongly suspect they see it as a format pillar and thus won't do anything with it.

[Koby]

It was pointed out to me that the link in my signature is obsolete. I contend that until December, it's still live.

Brainstorm banned tonite?

[Leftconsin]

I have playsets of 20 cards on Legacy's banned list, so I'm pretty prepared for anything. Although that includes cards they'd never take off like Tinker and Wheel, and Vintage staples like Drain, Oath, and Bazaar. I'm REALLY hoping to be able to play with Mind Twist next month.

[JDK]

#freemindtwist

[KobeBryan]

No bans tonight.

Maybe in three months there will be a ban on SnT and/or a reban of Entomb. Wizards has shown they prefer to ban enablers to banning the proximate troublemakers, and Griselly Bear would be fair in this format without good ways to cheat him into play.

There is an extremely small but non-zero chance Wizards decides to upend the format and bans Brainstorm. However, I strongly suspect they see it as a format pillar and thus won't do anything with it.

Entomb won't be banned. 1. it just came back. 2. to combo off to a griselbrand, you need to dump creature into the gy then find another card to reanimate him. 3 cards in total.

Show and tell only needs 2 cards.

If anything, show and tell will be the first to go if anything. But i don't think anything will happen today.

[GexxX]

I think they will unban Bargain. Or ban Grieselbrand. Just in case, I'm ready!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7zUGlZcHpvE/SNaMzn-WTFI/AAAAAAAADLI/Vpg-nQ9HlcU/s640/IMG_1715.jpg

Seems optimistic, but I have a set too. Just in case!

[joemauer]

Prediction:
Show and Tell and/or Griselbrand will be banned. Tough to say which one.

Something will be unbanned to throw us a bone. Something like Mind Twist and/or Land Tax.

[Honoluluicecaps]

My predictions:

Griselbrand - Banned

Earthcraft - Unbanned
Mind Twist - Unbanned

While Show and Tell might prove even more abusive in the future, I think the four or so archetypes that rely on it bring more to the meta than detract from it.

[John Cox]

My predictions:

Griselbrand - Banned

Earthcraft - Unbanned
Mind Twist - Unbanned

While Show and Tell might prove even more abusive in the future, I think the four or so archetypes that rely on it bring more to the meta than detract from it.

+1

and flash or burning wish unbanned in vintage

[Aggro_zombies]

My predictions:

Griselbrand - Banned

Earthcraft - Unbanned
Mind Twist - Unbanned

While Show and Tell might prove even more abusive in the future, I think the four or so archetypes that rely on it bring more to the meta than detract from it.
There were a bunch of different Survival decks, including Bant, RGBSA, Tradewind, Junk, and UGx Madness, and that didn't stop that card from getting the axe.

Wizards has shown it prefers to ban enablers since, once an enabler has shown itself to be too strong with the right conditions, it's only a matter of time before new printings meet those conditions again. There are fewer necessary long-term bans if you kill the enablers.

That said, I honestly don't expect action until the fall. They didn't ban Survival right away either, even though they had an opportunity to do so during the fall B&R update.

[KobeBryan]

I really hope show and tell doesn't get banned.

It means we are back to the old boring RUG, Mav, UW stoneblade meta.

[caiomarcos]

I really hope show and tell doesn't get banned.

It means we are back to the old boring RUG, Mav, UW stoneblade meta.

I don't believe a banning reverts the metagame or the state of the format to where it was before the onset or predominance of said banned card.

Even if it does there's nothing boringier than S&T decks.

[KobeBryan]

I don't believe a banning reverts the metagame or the state of the format to where it was before the onset or predominance of said banned card.

Even if it does there's nothing boringier than S&T decks.

Its more about diversity.

[menace13]

I really hope show and tell doesn't get banned.

It means we are back to the old boring RUG, Mav, UW stoneblade meta.

Agreed.

This banning at this current time would revert the meta to pre Grisel

[Aggro_zombies]

Its more about diversity.
A stable metagame is better for diversity because it gives defined targets to Tier Two strategies. This is especially important in Legacy because the Tier One decks also tend to be the most inherently powerful decks, both in terms of consistency and their ability to weather randomness in the opening rounds.

There were plenty of decks that were viable in the Maverick/RUG/Stoneblade era, even if they didn't put up results as consistently. There are certainly a broader range of viable decks then than there are now that Griselly Bear-based combo decks are on the rise.

[Koby]

Even if it does there's nothing boringier than S&T decks.

I don't know about that. You finish the match in 20 min tops, then have 30 min to find a pub, or smoke a bowl, or shark some trades. Shit, I'm bringing a pillow with me to the Grand Prix so I can nap in between my matches. /grin/

[Erdvermampfa]

While I'd unexceptionally support the ban of Griselbrand and Show and Tell (and to a further extent even Delver of Secrets, because as long this creatures stays legal, one will have hard time justifying playing a nonblue aggressive deck), I don't think that something will be banned this time simply because there hasn't been enough time to evaluate the effective implications on the format. However, It's obvious that Griselbrand is unsustainable in the format and that Show and Tell will have to be banned at a time so i expect seeing a ban in September, which is a pity.

[JDK]

Even if it does there's nothing boringier than S&T decks.

Yeah, watching control mirrors is so much fun.

What do you prefer?
a) Someone hitting a nail on the head putting it directly into the wood
b) Someone hitting all around the nail and eventually, after five hundred tries, reaching the goal

[Einherjer]

Yeah, watching control mirrors is so much fun.

What do you prefer?
a) Someone hitting a nail on the head putting it directly into the wood
b) Someone hitting all around the nail and eventually, after five hundred tries, reaching the goal

b, as it requires much more skill to hit the nail in the end...

BAN: Show and Tell
UNBAN: Nothing

[JDK]

b, as it requires much more skill to hit the nail in the end...

BAN: Show and Tell
UNBAN: Nothing

Landdrop, Brainstorm, more Landdrops, Sword, Jace. SUPER INTENSE! :>

You just want to see SnT banned because you sold your Sneak Show. Case closed.

#freemindtwist

[Arianrhod]

Also B.

My prediction:

Banned: Griselbrand
Unbanned: Mind Twist

Regardless of whether they were correct or not, the bans on Mystical Tutor and Survival, in particular, were very unpopular. I think that this, along with the potential similarities to the Necropotence incident, will lead Wizards to ban the problem, not the enabler in this instance only. I do think that Show and Tell will eventually prove to be too much for the format's health, but I think that Wizards both is unable to ban every enabler for Griselbrand, and is unwilling to remove another of legacy players' favorite toys.

I think a lot has been said about Twist already, but I'll add something else to the discussion: Twist is -old-. Wizards has hacked off enough old cards from the format that sometimes we can question legacy in general (the origin point of Stoneblade....look at this lega....oh wait, that's a standard deck.). Banning a new card and giving us back an old one would help restore some of our faith in the system, I feel.

[millerd33]

"Oh, well. What the hell. Checkers sells more than chess."

[Norm]

Landdrop, Brainstorm, more Landdrops, Sword, Jace. SUPER INTENSE! :>

You just want to see SnT banned because you sold your Sneak Show. Case closed.

#freemindtwist

This, just because you've sold your cards in fear of a ban doesn't mean you need to hop on the crybaby bandwagon.

[Lord Seth]

Any last-second predictions?Standard: I extremely doubt they'll ban anything, but if they do, I don't see any candidates other than Delver of Secrets. Maybe, maybe Lingering Souls (it got banned in block), but it'd be hard to see them banning that without simultaneously banning Delver.

Modern: No changes.

Legacy: Higher chance of there being unbannings than bannings, though I don't think anything will be banned (if they do, it will be Brainstorm, Griselbrand, and/or Show and Tell). If they unban anything, it'll probably be one of the usual suspects (Mind's Desire, Mind Twist, etc.)

Vintage: I don't have the faintest idea.

[feline]

If they ever actually unban mind's desire that card says I win just by casting it! it can even be countered and it doesn't matter because of storm storm storm storm a billion thunderclaps of gigantic hailstones of storm crazy stormyness of storm brewing stormhell, one gets the idea ^.^

In either case, I don't think griselbrand will get axed, I'd be surprised if it got hit. I do remember though when they were doing "previews" for avacyn restored, and someone posted that they admitted to "making a potentially broken card" and at the time, it was during all the "miracle mechanic" hype so people pointed to temporal mastery, I myself was wondering if they were referring to that, or reforge the souls, or griselbrand and even at the time I already felt miracle wasn't as exciting as the hype so I leaned towards the 7/7 lifelinker.

As far as standard goes, I saw the argument for keeping snapcaster mage & delver of secrets since they will remain in standard after the rotation, but ponder will not, so they could hit ponder for standard while keeping longer term options open.

[CorpT]

People keep saying things like that (they can ban Ponder, but not Snapcaster because of rotation schedule, etc...) but you guys realize that it is perfectly possible for them to ban Snapcaster now and then unban it when RTR is realeased, right? Things have been unbanned before.

[DragoFireheart]

People keep saying things like that (they can ban Ponder, but not Snapcaster because of rotation schedule, etc...) but you guys realize that it is perfectly possible for them to ban Snapcaster now and then unban it when RTR is realeased, right? Things have been unbanned before.

- When was the last time a Legacy legal card was banned and then subsequently unbanned at a future date?

(NOTE: I'm not referring to the split between Legacy and Vintage).

[JDK]

- When was the last time a Legacy legal card was banned and then subsequently unbanned at a future date?

(NOTE: I'm not referring to the split between Legacy and Vintage).

Are you sure you are referring to the right format?

[Lord Seth]

If they ever actually unban mind's desire that card says I win just by casting it!No it doesn't. It says that if you cast it within very specific circumstances and have the right cards coming up.

The reason I'm dubious about Mind's Desire being that strong is...well, what's it going to be played in? Storm? Ad Nausem costs less mana to cast and is in the right color. High Tide? Time Spiral seems to interface far, far better with the deck because it untaps lands for you to further fuel it. The whole reason it was originally banned in Legacy wasn't even that it was too powerful for Legacy, it just got banned because it was too powerful for Vintage (due to cards that are banned in Legacy) and back then a Restriction in Vintage meant an automatic ban in Legacy.

The card just feels like Eureka...it looks awfully strong, but it never gets played because of much better options.


it can even be countered and it doesn't matter because of storm storm storm storm a billion thunderclaps of gigantic hailstones of storm crazy stormyness of storm brewing stormhell, one gets the idea ^.^It can't be countered? Did Stifle and Mindbreak Trap suddenly vanish when I wasn't looking?

[feline]

The card just feels like Eureka...it looks awfully strong, but it never gets played because of much better options.

It can't be countered? Did Stifle and Mindbreak Trap suddenly vanish when I wasn't looking?

I said it can even be countered, as in the traditional sense of "force of will" "counterspell" etc and not even care, I didn't say it can't be countered, forgive me I just put that out the wrong way and I can see why it appeared that I said that in that manner, but that's not how I meant it. >^,^<


If they ever actually unban mind's desire that card says I win just by casting it! it can even be countered and it doesn't matter because of storm storm storm storm a billion thunderclaps of gigantic hailstones of storm crazy stormyness of storm brewing stormhell, one gets the idea ^.^

[Shawon]

Don't forget Flusterstorm can counter Desire. That card is criminally underplayed in Legacy (not Vintage though).

[Moondancerbb]

No it doesn't. It says that if you cast it within very specific circumstances and have the right cards coming up.

The reason I'm dubious about Mind's Desire being that strong is...well, what's it going to be played in? Storm? Ad Nausem costs less mana to cast and is in the right color. High Tide? Time Spiral seems to interface far, far better with the deck because it untaps lands for you to further fuel it. The whole reason it was originally banned in Legacy wasn't even that it was too powerful for Legacy, it just got banned because it was too powerful for Vintage (due to cards that are banned in Legacy) and back then a Restriction in Vintage meant an automatic ban in Legacy.

The card just feels like Eureka...it looks awfully strong, but it never gets played because of much better options.

It can't be countered? Did Stifle and Mindbreak Trap suddenly vanish when I wasn't looking?

Your Right it doesn't go into any of the current decks because it will go in the Minds Desire deck.

[Vacrix]

If they ever actually unban mind's desire that card says I win just by casting it! it can even be countered and it doesn't matter because of storm storm storm storm a billion thunderclaps of gigantic hailstones of storm crazy stormyness of storm brewing stormhell, one gets the idea ^.^
I've mentioned this tons of times in this thread already but why not. Mind's Desire will only get played in TES as a 1'of Wishboard target for BW. Otherwise, its inferior to Ad Nauseam is Dark Ritual combo as AdN costs 1 less and is on color with Dark Ritual. In High Tide combo, Time Spiral is strictly better as it not only draws you a new 7 to work with but also untaps your lands for the same cost. Also, both AdN and TS require no initial storm investment to go off with them which means you can go off with very few resources. In that sense, even Meditate is better than Mind's Desire in High Tide. It won't get played in its own build. I've tried to build it in High Tide, ANT/TES-esque shells, SI shells, Belcher shells, UB Dark Tide, and various other variations. It was terrible in all of them and I always wished I had a different engine. You need about a minimum of 7 storm to win with it. Honestly... as an Engine its terrible at the moment. It needs something else (Tolarian Academy) to be effective in Legacy.


On the this topic... Mind's Desire used to be quite the powerhouse. Many cards have fallen out of favor as broken cards because of power creep. Given that powercreep is always creeping, I wonder what cards will get outclassed by the new cards WotC is printing, both to function on their own like Jace or to synergize with past cards, like Survival/Vengevine.

[rxavage]

I would assume a U/R Desire built with 4 reforge the soul and 4 time reversal would be fun to play with.

[Vacrix]

Perhaps. A new build might come about after people grind out a bunch of playtesting with it but it will be inferior to the other storm decks.

Also, the advantage to playing a deck that splashes blue for Mind's Desire includes all the great blue cantrips.. and Force of Will. But there are currently plenty of other options if you want to play Force of Will in a combo deck. After all, I don't think we would be talking about Show and Tell if people weren't protecting it with Force of Will.

[feline]

I've mentioned this tons of times in this thread already but why not. Mind's Desire will only get played in TES as a 1'of Wishboard target for BW. Otherwise, its inferior to Ad Nauseam is Dark Ritual combo as AdN costs 1 less and is on color with Dark Ritual. In High Tide combo, Time Spiral is strictly better as it not only draws you a new 7 to work with but also untaps your lands for the same cost. Also, both AdN and TS require no initial storm investment to go off with them which means you can go off with very few resources. In that sense, even Meditate is better than Mind's Desire in High Tide. It won't get played in its own build. I've tried to build it in High Tide, ANT/TES-esque shells, SI shells, Belcher shells, UB Dark Tide, and various other variations. It was terrible in all of them and I always wished I had a different engine. You need about a minimum of 7 storm to win with it. Honestly... as an Engine its terrible at the moment. It needs something else (Tolarian Academy) to be effective in Legacy.


On the this topic... Mind's Desire used to be quite the powerhouse. Many cards have fallen out of favor as broken cards because of power creep. Given that powercreep is always creeping, I wonder what cards will get outclassed by the new cards WotC is printing, both to function on their own like Jace or to synergize with past cards, like Survival/Vengevine.

I have never heard Mind's Desire put that way before, thank you for the insight, now I feel less threatened by it. >^,^<

[DragoFireheart]

Are you sure you are referring to the right format?

What exactly are you referring to?

What cards were banned when Legacy was a format and then unbanned later on?

[aCatNamedBootsy]

What exactly are you referring to?

What cards were banned when Legacy was a format and then unbanned later on?

They were talking about the idea of Snapcaster being banned then unbanned in Standard, not Legacy.

[feline]

Looks like Sundering Titan & Griselbrand are banned, in EDH, if this is a foreshadow of what will be announced in about 6 hours from now, will have to wait and see.

I still even with this news to the EDH community, am leaning towards Griselbrand not becoming GriselBANNED tonight, I think it will still be safe.

[Vacrix]

I have never heard Mind's Desire put that way before, thank you for the insight, now I feel less threatened by it >^,^<
Yeah I playtested it a lot to gain some insight myself after hearing everyones comments about it being broken as hell. But it didn't make sense in light of the other storm engines so I tried it. Granted, its cool as hell to go off with but it just doesn't really happen without Academy.

[Julian23]

Mind's Desire? Not intimidated by it. Right now there's no deck I can see that would like to actually commit on Mind's Desire. Even in TES, half the stuff it reveals is gonna do nothing. Not something I would like for an awfully hard to cast spell for that deck.

[Moduloc]

I kind of feel like I'm in the minority but I don't see Sneak show as the elephant in the room everyone acts like it is. The meta hasn't really changed much since ol' Grisely was printed. Snapcaster and delver had much larger impacts in the format than Griselbrand. The hyperbole when magic players start rapping grows tiresome.

[feline]

I doubt it, but I hope they slam something from RUG, like stupid Delver of secrets! lol, though even though its annoying to lose to that, it's just a 3/2 flyer that is easily answerable, if they dont go "swing for 3, daze that, swing for 3, spell pierce that, swing for 3, spell snare that, swing for 3, force of will that, swing for 3, lightning bolt ARE YOU DEAD YET", I don't think they will ban anything though, Griselbrand, RUG, or whatever else.

[nedleeds]

Mind's Desire? Not intimidated by it. Right now there's no deck I can see that would like to actually commit on Mind's Desire. Even in TES, half the stuff it reveals is gonna do nothing. Not something I would like for an awfully hard to cast spell for that deck.

I think the issue is when Mind's Desire reveals Mind's Desire. So in a deck with one it's pretty innocuous. But you get 4 in the mix and things get absurd.

[alphastryk]

I think the issue is when Mind's Desire reveals Mind's Desire. So in a deck with one it's pretty innocuous. But you get 4 in the mix and things get absurd.

Exactly. In vintage it is fine, because it can't cascade into another. It is restricted for a reason.

[AlmostGrown]

I doubt it, but I hope they slam something from RUG, like stupid Delver of secrets! lol, though even though its annoying to lose to that, it's just a 3/2 flyer that is easily answerable, if they dont go "swing for 3, daze that, swing for 3, spell pierce that, swing for 3, spell snare that, swing for 3, force of will that, swing for 3, lightning bolt ARE YOU DEAD YET", I don't think they will ban anything though, Griselbrand, RUG, or whatever else.

What version of Legacy are you playing? Spell Snare??? Lack of Goyf + Mongoose??? seriously though, you're a classic example of someone not knowing what they're speaking about.

[rxavage]

What version of Legacy are you playing? Spell Snare??? Lack of Goyf + Mongoose??? seriously though, you're a classic example of someone not knowing what they're speaking about.

What version are you playing? Who run's Spell Snare right now?

[Michael Keller]

Minutes away...

[mini1337s]

Minutes away...

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRs87CrYWjXNWsZHJr3DfKWXdVKoPgr3tqDm1y8lY4RiIrtyMXI8GpNQW5L

[Michael Keller]

Come on, Black Vise!

Shit, did I say that out loud?

[berksowl]

Minutes away...

And where will the announcement first appear, or where will this banner appear? Daily MTG?

[NecroYawgmoth]

And where will the announcement first appear, or where will this banner appear? Daily MTG?

yap

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Default.aspx

[rxavage]

yap

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Default.aspx


f5

[NecroYawgmoth]

*drumroll*

[CookedChestnuts]

Site won't refresh. 1st world problems.

[CorwinB]

Banned : WotC's Web Server

[feline]

You are not alone, it's still "loading" for me too at the time of this posting.

[(nameless one)]

Site won't refresh. 1st world problems.

Land Tax is on the pic though...

Im excited..

[DrHealex]

I guess that is just what happens when everyone in the world clicks refresh at midnight.

[rxavage]

This is bs

[ELD]

Doesn't look like any changes.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Land Tax is sold out on SCG....

[(nameless one)]

Im building Parfait!

[Michael Keller]

Land Tax!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Snap_Keep]

Land Tax is unbanned. No bannings.

[Jaynel]

Land tax is unbanned, no other changes.

[Snap_Keep]

Land Tax is unbanned. Nothing is banned.

[Pich]

Land tax is unbanned? Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Michael Keller]

Land Tax!!!

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Guess a lotta bros knew Land Tax was unbanned, because it was sold out ten minutes before midnight all across mainstream stores.

[CookedChestnuts]

Land Tax unbanned. Meh.

[Chikenbok]

Only change: Unban landtax...

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Announcement Date: June 20, 2012
Effective Date: July 1, 2012

Standard, Extended, Modern, Vintage
No changes

Legacy
Land Tax is Unbanned.

Changes to Magic Online-only formats are now announced monthly in the Magic Online Community Group blog.

For the complete list of all banned and restricted cards by format, click here.


While the Legacy metagame is healthy, the DCI is still interested in occasionally unbanning some cards to see if they improve the format. The top tournament decks in Legacy include Reanimator, RUG Delver, and Sneak and Show. Land Tax has been banned since 2004, doesn't seem to directly add to the top decks, and could make the format even more diverse. While there is always some risk in unbanning a powerful card, the DCI thinks this is a reasonable risk to take.

The DCI looked at the results of competitive Standard events. We found that while a high percentage of the participants played WU Delver decks, that the win rate of those decks was very close to par. For instance, in a recent MTGO PTQ, the win rate of WU Delver decks against non-Delver decks was a bit under 51%. In general there are decks that the Delver deck is strong against, and decks that it is weak against, but on average the deck tends to get results close to average. Additionally the number of people playing high level Standard events is the highest ever.

Looking at the Magic 2013 card set, it appears that there may be more tools for other decks than for the UW Delver deck, though time will tell if this bears out. The DCI will continue to observe how this plays out, but is taking no action.

[Teknique]

For those who can't see yet.

NO BANNINGS

Land Tax unbanned.

[aaronm678]

Land Tax is on the pic though...

Im excited..

Land Tax unbanned, no other changes in any format.

[Seas]

Land Tax is unbanned.

[Leftconsin]

Land tax!

[metamet]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

Says June 20th.

And I don't see Land Tax on the list?

[majikal]

Land Tax unbanned. In other news, the format is still terrible until something knocks RUG off its throne that doesn't lose to Griselbrand.

[Erdvermampfa]

Lol, look at the amount of people observating the thread :D

edit: so the format is dead until september..

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

love love love the DCI.

Didn't see the need for bannings, and unbanning tax is super awesome. Time to pick up Parfait!

[thefringthing]

Three months of non-stop Griselbrand it is then.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Selective Memory, watch the fuck out!

[dontbiteitholmes]

Guess a lotta bros knew Land Tax was unbanned, because it was sold out ten minutes before midnight all across mainstream stores.

They update the images on the server before the articles go live so if you know about where the image should be you can see it before the official announcement goes up.

So long story short lots of people where camping the WotC site and found this http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/features/news06202012a_jdidpqs0s.jpg
early. Don't worry though, Land Tax isn't the hottest investment...

[Gheizen64]

Legacy:

No changes

Hoped they had the balls to actually unban something, but well, i guess sooner or later they'll have to do something.

[Pippin]

Three months of non-stop Griselbrand it is then.

Gutted about it :mad:

And the Wizards response of "The top tournament decks in Legacy include Reanimator, RUG Delver, and Sneak and Show" is just dumb. It should rather say:

"The top tournament decks in Legacy are Griselbrand decks and RUG Delver" :rolleyes:

Argument to unban Land Tax is also mind-boggling! It doesn't belong in Griselbrand decks and RUG delver so its okay to unban it. Why didn't they unban Earthcraft then? Or Hermit Druid? Or Fastbond? Or any other random card?

Meh, here's a hopping that Griselbanned will be gone in September

[Hopo]

DCI thinks that legacy is healthy, and props to them for that.
I think that Land Tax will hardly affect the format, yet it gives people something to fuzz and tinker about. Good call and let's hope we'll see some more unbanning in the future.

To all cry-babies: if Griselbrand is so oppressive and impossible to beat and draws you 14 on turn one all the time and makes you sell your cards and to not eat your breakfast, why do you think that the premiere body regarding tournament play - the DCI - didn't make the same observation?

[Tao]

Gutted about it :mad:

And the Wizards response of "The top tournament decks in Legacy include Reanimator, RUG Delver, and Sneak and Show" is just dumb. It should rather say:

"The top tournament decks in Legacy are Griselbrand decks and RUG Delver" :rolleyes:


It might as well say "The top tournament decks in Legacy include Brainstorm.dec, Brainstorm.dec and Brainstorm.dec."

[Hopo]

It might as well say "The top tournament decks in Legacy include Brainstorm.dec, Brainstorm.dec and Brainstorm.dec."

Or Duallandsandfetches.dec OR Fow.dec OR Ponder.dec OR my personal favorite: Legacy.dec

[Vacrix]

Argument to unban Land Tax is also mind-boggling! It doesn't belong in Griselbrand decks and RUG delver so its okay to unban it. Why didn't they unban Earthcraft then? Or Hermit Druid? Or Fastbond? Or any other random card?

Meh, here's a hopping that Griselbanned will be gone in September
Because dropping your Squirrel Nest with Show and Tell is way more baller than playing Griselbrand. It wouldn't stay legal for long.

I'm pretty stoked they unbanned Land Tax. Its about time WotC started taking these banned cards into consideration for unbanning because some of them are a lot of fun to play with, Land Tax being a good example.

[I am the brainwasher]

Land Tax unbanned.

http://diesundas.funzt-halt.net/b/badumtss.png

Har. har. har. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bohUJayqPW0)

[Pippin]

DCI thinks that legacy is healthy, and props to them for that.
I think that Land Tax will hardly affect the format, yet it gives people something to fuzz and tinker about. Good call and let's hope we'll see some more unbanning in the future.

To all cry-babies: if Griselbrand is so oppressive and impossible to beat and draws you 14 on turn one all the time and makes you sell your cards and to not eat your breakfast, why do you think that the premiere body regarding tournament play - the DCI - didn't make the same observation?

Because too little time passed to ban card that was just released? Because no big GP was held yet with Griselbrand legal?

Main problem with Griselbrand is that it pushes non blue decks out of the format. It's either play Griselbrand.deck or something with counterspells and ok clock. This wasn't like this before Y. Bargain 2.0 was printed, and lots of non-blue decks like Aggro Loam/Maverick/etc. had a chance to compete in the meta.
Same thing happened when Mental Misstep was legal. Look how that ended up.

On the other hand I understand the view of some. If everything is ok at a small GPT in a non-important country (due to player base), then it surely must be everywhere else. Assuming people played decks they wanted to play, and not decks that they could afford making meta not relevant.

[Hopo]

Because too little time passed to ban card that was just released?
Now you're talking.


Because no big GP was held yet with Griselbrand legal?
In other words: there has been no reason to ban it. Nice job, dude. One can tell that you surely have thought this well through.


Main problem with Griselbrand is that it pushes non blue decks out of the format.

That is not a main problem, that is your problem. If you want flavor, go read some more Harry Potter. It shouldn't matter what colour your card frames are.

I understand that someone actually cares about the colors for some reason, I just don't think they should.

[xfxf]

I think Pippin cares about the colors of the card frames because they also go hand in hand with different strategies associated with those colors.

[I am the brainwasher]

The explanation is as simple as it can get.
RUG's pretty much the most dominant deck right now. It is a tempo-deck that tries to get virtual/real card advantage by negating the opponents mana and is able to work with lesser resources than most opposing decks do.
No deck put up threatening numbers just quite yet, so they unbanned a card that is at first glance a way to fight the "strongest" decks angle of attack.
I think it's meh since Griselbrand, UW and maybe Threshold will beat the crap outta this format for quite some time now, but hey, Goblins are back, so everything will be just fine, right?
Seems like anyone can suck all of the DCI's job outta his fingers in a minute. Why the fukc can't they hire someone who knows actually what he's doing... .

[Awaclus]

I think Pippin cares about the colors of the card frames because they also go hand in hand with different strategies associated with those colors.
So what? It's a strategy game, you aren't supposed to win if your strategy is bad. Also, this might be worth reading: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

[xfxf]

I am a blue player as you can see from my signature, I think you should think in that context before going defensive and trying to look smart.

Pipping was complaining about some strategies (non-blue ones at that) being pushed out of the format and being not good anymore, and Hopo was making irrelevant rants about card colors and flavor, I just wanted to pull back Pippin's argument back into discussion.

I don't agree with Pippin's argument. But I don't like smug responses taking arguments out of context and turning the thread into a troll war either.

[Julian23]

I think Pippin cares about the colors of the card frames because they also go hand in hand with different strategies associated with those colors.

While this used to be true way back in the past, I don't think it's true anymore.

[xfxf]

@Julian
I agree with you and as you can see from my above post I wasn't defending that argument, just trying to take it for what it was.

Yes, general inclination is to think of blue decks on the control/combo/unfair side of things and to think of non-blue decks on the aggro/fair side. Currently due to the power of Delver even blue decks are playing the fair aggro game to some extent. Even the RUG thread in MTGSalvation is under the aggro section and I agree with that. Also there are other outliers to that presumption such as non-blue combo decks (Elves), non-blue control decks (Pox, MUD, White Stax) but the strenght and viability of those decks are debatable. It's not to say that I think blue is oppressive or overrepresented. I don't.

[nedleeds]

And also ... Land Tax pairs great with Brainstorm.

[DragoFireheart]

Well, I was way off.

Land Tax got unbanned? I think I just heard the sounds of millions of Legacy players cry out in tear-pouring joy.

[sdematt]

But the joy that exists for no reason, unfortunately. We're not fighting Mana Drains anymore, kids.

-Matt

[DragoFireheart]

But the joy that exists for no reason, unfortunately. We're not fighting Mana Drains anymore, kids.

-Matt

Maybe so, but it's more of a sentiment than competitive joy. Even if the card is terrible, some people like it.

[nedleeds]

I just grabbed 3 x korean mox diamonds, korean priests, korean monks, chinese plate, and korean armor. I already had korean firestorms. it's time to tax and battle. if you push me i may go after korean guerrillas.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Maybe so, but it's more of a sentiment than competitive joy. Even if the card is terrible, some people like it.

I think any joy you are hearing is from Wizards finally making the realization that most Legacy players reached ~8 years ago when they look the first look at the Legacy banned list and said "Why the fuck is Land Tax on there?"

[Lord Seth]

What was the original stated rationale for banning Land Tax anyway? It was before they announced things on their site so I assume the explanation is buried in some old copy of The Duelist or something.

[Plague Sliver]

What was the original stated rationale for banning Land Tax anyway? It was before they announced things on their site so I assume the explanation is buried in some old copy of The Duelist or something.

Slows down the game.

Similar reason for banning Top in Extended.

BTW, it's funny to see the old poll at the top of the page. Sensei's Top being the #1 vote getter...

[joemauer]

I thought Land Tax was initially banned because it was a card advantage machine(which was tough to justify after Griselbrand), but stayed banned because of the worries of games going over in time.

[Lord Seth]

Slows down the game.Any idea where this was stated? I'm trying to figure out exactly what, way back when, Wizards of the Coast stated was the reason (not just why players thought it was banned/wanted it banned). If they even gave one back then.

[Justin]

Any idea where this was stated? I'm trying to figure out exactly what, way back when, Wizards of the Coast stated was the reason (not just why players thought it was banned/wanted it banned). If they even gave one back then.

Here is the official explanation from Bill Stark on Top's ban in Extended. An argument against Land Tax is that it slows the game down by having a player shuffle during every upkeep. I don't expect that Land Tax will see anywhere near as much play as Top did in Extended in 2008. It was probably the correct decision to unban Land Tax.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/2

Extended
For many readers, the biggest surprise to come out of the recent announcement was the decision to ban Sensei’s Divining Top in Extended. Making the decision to remove a card from an environment completely is never something taken lightly, and this time was no exception. Sensei's Divining Top caught the eye of Organized Play as being a potential problem during the Qualifier season for Pro Tour–Hollywood, but ultimately the decision was to monitor Top’s performance through the season and reconvene on the matter later in the year.

Ultimately Top 8s throughout the season were littered with the one-cost artifact either in conjunction with Counterbalance to lock opponents out of games, Trinket Mage to be found reliably, or (and usually in addition to) Onslaught’s sac-lands to allow players to shuffle away cards they didn’t wish to draw while peeking at a fresh set of three cards. Such a pervasive performance during a single season created a different problem as well: it made tournaments take too much time.

The constant activating of Divining Top bogs games down, which ultimately leads to an increase in the number of matches that go to time and beyond, which in turn leads to tournaments running much longer than they have historically. Furthermore, the Top encourages players to maximize the number of shuffle effects they play in a deck and the constant shuffling, cutting, presenting to an opponent to repeat the process, and then continuation of a turn exacerbated the situation. In the past the DCI has banned such cards on those grounds alone (Shahrazad is a good example of this, with Land Tax and Thawing Glaciers also having been banned for similar reasons) but in conjunction with the Top’s popularity during the last Extended PTQ season, the decision was to ban the card from the format it was harming.