All B/R update speculation.

[Tammit67]

Yup, 12 EST


No, it's next week. The announcement is the Monday after the prerelease.

Well shit, now i'm confused. My facebook news feed is blowing up with B&R predictions so I think it is tonight

[btm10]

Going forward, Banned and Restricted updates will by synchronized with set releases. For each set, starting with Gatecrash, the announcement will be the Monday after the Prerelease, and the effective date will be the same as the release date of the set.

There are several advantages to this. First, this means there is no longer a date you have to remember. Second, it is less disruptive to deck management. Most players find it is a good time to update their decks when a set releases. Finally, this answers odd questions as to whether a banning has taken place if the update date occurs in the middle of a tournament.

From the September 2012 announcement (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/09202012a).

[Lord Seth]

No changes, no surprise.

[Lemnear]

Must suck to play Modern...

[Barsoom]

So it's the monday BEFORE the prerelease, not after

[Gheizen64]

MindTwist am i cry.

Wanted Vise the most honestly tho'.

[rooneg]

So it's the monday BEFORE the prerelease, not after

Oops, my mistake.

[Einherjer]

As a Legacyplayer I like this changes.

As someone who owns a Moderndeck... lol.


Greetings

[Zombie]

Another not-at-all wrong looking match at Atlanta this weekend. Leyline is a "fun" card.

[bjholmes3]

I'm confused; what happened to Modern? The article I saw had only two bannings in Pauper.

[Zombie]

I'm confused; what happened to Modern? The article I saw had only two bannings in Pauper.

GP Detroit was eaten alive by Jund. People here are not big fans of Jund.

[bjholmes3]

Ah, so it's the lack of ban that's the problem, lol. Modern reminds me of Yugioh: one or two decks dominate the format for a few months, then get banned to high hell. Jund is like Dragon Rulers: it survived.

[DragoFireheart]

GP Detroit was eaten alive by Jund. People here are not big fans of Jund.

I think it's funny how Jund is making a comeback despite Bloodbraid elf being banned.

They should ban Tarmogoyf and DRS from the format for maximum rage quits.

[evanmartyr]

I think it's funny how Jund is making a comeback despite Bloodbraid elf being banned.

They should ban Tarmogoyf and DRS from the format for maximum rage quits.

Tarmogoyf is far too efficient a threat for that format. There's a slew of cards that would be played, and decks that would be good enough, if only Tarmogoyf wasn't around to one-up all their threats.

[DragoFireheart]

Tarmogoyf is far too efficient a threat for that format. There's a slew of cards that would be played, and decks that would be good enough, if only Tarmogoyf wasn't around to one-up all their threats.

They did it for the kitty, why not the Goyf?

I wonder if WOTC fears losing support if they ban goyf, especially since they just reprinted him.

[majikal]

The hilarious part of what happened in Detroit is that the biggest targets to ban based on sheer numbers are Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, and Dark Confidant, which all recently have seen reprints to push the Modern Format. Deathrite Shaman got played more, but it's more of a symptom of the dominance of those other cards than an actual problem (re-gain life lost from Bob and T-Seize, shrink Tarmogoyf).

[DragoFireheart]

The hilarious part of what happened in Detroit is that the biggest targets to ban based on sheer numbers are Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, and Dark Confidant, which all recently have seen reprints to push the Modern Format. Deathrite Shaman got played more, but it's more of a symptom of the dominance of those other cards than an actual problem (re-gain life lost from Bob and T-Seize, shrink Tarmogoyf).

Well, at some point WotC has to stop banning stuff out of fear of just driving people away. I wonder what deck(s) would dominate if Jund left?

[lordofthepit]

The hilarious part of what happened in Detroit is that the biggest targets to ban based on sheer numbers are Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, and Dark Confidant, which all recently have seen reprints to push the Modern Format. Deathrite Shaman got played more, but it's more of a symptom of the dominance of those other cards than an actual problem (re-gain life lost from Bob and T-Seize, shrink Tarmogoyf).

I wouldn't mind seeing them get banned in Modern so that Legacy players can acquire them more cheaply.

[Gheizen64]

The hilarious part of what happened in Detroit is that the biggest targets to ban based on sheer numbers are Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, and Dark Confidant, which all recently have seen reprints to push the Modern Format. Deathrite Shaman got played more, but it's more of a symptom of the dominance of those other cards than an actual problem (re-gain life lost from Bob and T-Seize, shrink Tarmogoyf).

People however are pointing to the fact that DRS allow for T2 liliana and lifegain, two things that are pushing the deck over the top. Were not for DRS i think Jund, Ajundi, Burundy and Burgundy wouldn't be as dominant. Iirc almost all of the undefeated decks D1 were Jund, and they're keeping all the tools for decent U-based control lists on the banned list because "counters are unfun", but getting grinded by AD, Liliana, Goyfs and whatsnot is a world of fun. The worst shit was the banning of Wild Nacatl, god forgive aggro has a tool to race Midrange. They only want midrange, and in turn PWs become obscene in a format that's all grindy midrange. I'm thinking they'll ban liliana honestly. Thoughtseize, DRS, Confidant and Goyfs all saw recent prints/reprints, while Liliana is already out of Standard.

[DragoFireheart]

People however are pointing to the fact that DRS allow for T2 liliana and lifegain, two things that are pushing the deck over the top. Were not for DRS i think Jund, Ajundi, Burundy and Burgundy wouldn't be as dominant. Iirc almost all of the undefeated decks D1 were Jund, and they're keeping all the tools for decent U-based control lists on the banned list because "counters are unfun", but getting grinded by AD, Liliana, Goyfs and whatsnot is a world of fun. The worst shit was the banning of Wild Nacatl, god forgive aggro has a tool to race Midrange. They only want midrange, and in turn PWs become obscene in a format that's all grindy midrange. I'm thinking they'll ban liliana honestly. Thoughtseize, DRS, Confidant and Goyfs all saw recent prints/reprints, while Liliana is already out of Standard.

What's the list of "unfun" things that WotC is checking off their list?

[] Counterspells
[] Land Destruction
[] Fast Combo decks
[] ???

[Mr Miagi]

From GP Detroit's coverage http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpdet13/welcome#2


Modern is a format alive with diversity.
checks top8/16 for diversity, making a face like this :eyebrow: then also this :really: and then I figured he must be trolling :rolleyes:


Day 2 alone featured thirty-seven different types of decks
Whatever floats his boat..

[DragoFireheart]

If Modern is an example of diversity, then Legacy must be a Rainbow.

Of course, Vintage looks like mud.

[Gheizen64]

What's the list of "unfun" things that WotC is checking off their list?

[] Counterspells
[] Land Destruction
[] Fast Combo decks
[] ???

[] Fast mana creatures
[] Cheap removal

WotC you need not to pay me you can take this for free :cool:

[DragoFireheart]

[] Cheap removal


Well that can't be right, they haven't banned Lightning Bolt.

[Admiral_Arzar]

What's the list of "unfun" things that WotC is checking off their list?

[] Counterspells
[] Land Destruction
[] Fast Combo decks
[] ???

You forgot [] Random Discard.

[KobeBryan]

[] Decks that don't require you to tap sideways
[] decks that get free things in play from Graveyard

[Julian23]

Wizards has been promoting tactics over strategy for years now. Jund is the final form of this approach and (in my eyes; not only because of the recent GP results) the manifestation of everything I dislike about this way of playing the game.

[DragoFireheart]

[] Fast mana creatures
[] Cheap removal

WotC you need not to pay me you can take this for free :cool:


You forgot [] Random Discard.


[] Decks that don't require you to tap sideways
[] decks that get free things in play from Graveyard

Updated my "Things Wizards of the Coast hates" .txt


[] Counterspells
[] Land Destruction
[] Fast Combo decks
[] Fast mana creatures
[] Cheap removal
[] Random Discard
[] Decks that don't require you to tap sideways
[] decks that get free things in play from Graveyard

[lordofthepit]

http://cdn.meme.li/i/on4gp.jpg

[Lemnear]

Liliana of the Veil
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Deathrite Shaman
Dark Confidant

5 cards that rule Modern and your wallet ... what a joke of a format: nearly as expensive as Legacy, nearly as "diverse" as Vintage....

[Gheizen64]

http://cdn.meme.li/i/on4gp.jpg

A more correct meme would be:

- we got a good color representation!

Everyone playing 5-color jund.

[Koby]

A more correct meme would be:

- we got a good color representation!

Everyone playing 5-color jund.

Did you know what they called the BG Rock deck?

That's right - Redless Jund!

I'm playing Jundless Jund in my artifact deck this week.

[Teluin]

"After that, we'll revisit Modern in Oklahoma City to find out if Theros can push new decks to the top of the format."

Y'know, by reprinting Thoughtseize!

[Teluin]

Oh, and all the other good... cards..

[DragoFireheart]

A more correct meme would be:

- we got a good color representation!

Everyone playing 5-color jund.

ALL COLOURS ARE REPRESENTED EQUALLY!

Isn't that what we wanted?

[Amon Amarth]

No unbannings for Legacy but GP Detroit makes Modern look hilarious. That format, and WotC's management of it, is a veritable Monty Python sketch.

[DragoFireheart]

No unbannings for Legacy but GP Detroit makes Modern look hilarious. That format, and WotC's management of it, is a veritable Monty Python sketch.

It's very sad since Modern has/had great potential to be another eternal format with its own interesting meta and Modern-defining decks that doesn't just take Legacy's best cards that aren't banned and mashed into some random pile. At the current rate, it seems like the format is turning into mid-range decks, slow combo decks, and decks that can hate on the former two.

[Amon Amarth]

It's very sad since Modern has/had great potential to be another eternal format with its own interesting meta and Modern-defining decks that doesn't just take Legacy's best cards that aren't banned and mashed into some random pile. At the current rate, it seems like the format is turning into mid-range decks, slow combo decks, and decks that can hate on the former two.

WotC's haphazard, at best, management of Modern's Banned List coupled with their current design philosophy is what's really at fault. I think that the format fits pretty well between Standard and Legacy but they keep pushing midrange garbage decks that all play the same because there is almost no downside to playing four color decks.

[dameus]

Did you know what they called the BG Rock deck?

That's right - Redless Jund!

I'm playing Jundless Jund in my artifact deck this week.

Jundless Jund! LOL. I love it!

[dontbiteitholmes]

Liliana of the Veil
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Deathrite Shaman
Dark Confidant

5 cards that rule Modern and your wallet ... what a joke of a format: nearly as expensive as Legacy, nearly as "diverse" as Vintage....

Vintage is actually pretty diverse believe it or not.

[Lemnear]

Vintage is actually pretty diverse believe it or not.

Yes, diversity is given among the blue decks, but that's pointless if all lose to Shop and Dredge unless dedicating almost all their SB to those 2 archtypes and even then it's not uncommon that you are never able to play those SB cards because Shop locks you out on the play or Dredge dismembers your hand turn 2 with flashbacked Therapies if not kill you directly.

There's no fun in playing in rare and small tourneys of about a dozen peeps and half of them playing Dredge and Shop, killing you without having a chance to interact with them meaningful. I have enough of the format and WotC ignoring that there's a problem for more than 4 years. They will never touch Vintage anymore and just will let the format die in the chokehold of those 2 decks, that's my expectation.

It's like talking diversity of choice in pickung up KotR, Tarmogoyf or Teravore (Jace, Gush, Bob as engines in Vintage) for your deck to battle other creature-decks, while half of the format plays S&T or Storm.

The GenCon Vintage tournaments during the last few years were hilarious and BoM is going to drop the Vintage Tournament because of the vanishing number of players participating

[DragoFireheart]

Yes, diversity is given among the blue decks, but that's pointless if all lose to Shop and Dredge unless dedicating almost all their SB to those 2 archtypes and even then it's not uncommon that you are never able to play those SB cards because Shop locks you out on the play or Dredge dismembers your hand turn 2 with flashbacked Therapies if not kill you directly.

There's no fun in playing in rare and small tourneys of about a dozen peeps and half of them playing Dredge and Shop, killing you without having a chance to interact with them meaningful. I have enough of the format and WotC ignoring that there's a problem for more than 4 years. They will never touch Vintage anymore and just will let the format die in the chokehold of those 2 decks, that's my expectation.

It's like talking diversity of choice in pickung up KotR, Tarmogoyf or Teravore (Jace, Gush, Bob as engines in Vintage) for your deck to battle other creature-decks, while half of the format plays S&T or Storm.

The GenCon Vintage tournaments during the last few years were hilarious and BoM is going to drop the Vintage Tournament because of the vanishing number of players participating

Haven't any of the recent anti-yard cards made Dredge in vintage more bearable?

[DragoFireheart]

Vintage is actually pretty diverse believe it or not.

You're kidding, right?

January: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Vintage&fecha=2013-1
February: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Vintage&fecha=2013-2
March: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Vintage&fecha=2013-3
April: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Vintage&fecha=2013-4
May: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Vintage&fecha=2013-5
June: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Vintage&fecha=2013-6
July: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Vintage&fecha=2013-7
August: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Vintage&fecha=2013-8

July is the only month where MUD wasn't the top deck. The format literally looks like the colour of shit.

[Malakai]

Keep in mind, it takes about 7 months of vintage to accumulate the same amount of data as 1 month of Standard.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Keep in mind, it takes about 7 months of vintage to accumulate the same amount of data as 1 month of Standard.

More to the point for the purpose of that website any deck with Workshops = MUD and any deck with Jace = Jace Control and any deck with dudes = fish. There are at least 4 flavors of MUD, more Jace decks than I can think of, and at least 5 "fish" decks off the top of my head.

[DragoFireheart]

More to the point for the purpose of that website any deck with Workshops = MUD and any deck with Jace = Jace Control and any deck with dudes = fish. There are at least 4 flavors of MUD, more Jace decks than I can think of, and at least 5 "fish" decks off the top of my head.

Oh sure, there are variations. But compared to Legacy's various? Not comparable in the least.

[Darkenslight]

Oh sure, there are variations. But compared to Legacy's various? Not comparable in the least.

Still more than Modern.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Oh sure, there are variations. But compared to Legacy's various? Not comparable in the least.

Well if Legacy is the baseline for a wide open format nothing is ever going to compare. Legacy is so wide open sometimes people complain on these boards that they wish the meta was more defined because it's entirely reasonable to go to a 9 round event and play vs. 9 different decks. I mean as far as being wide open is concerned Legacy players are spoiled.

That said I went to Gencon and played probably 15 rounds of Vintage and I played vs. Dredge, MUD, Turbo-Tezz, Humans, RUG Delver, Bomberman, BUG Jace, UB Jace, Doomsday, Oath, Oops All Spells, and UW Fish, so I'd say Vintage is still pretty varied. MUD and Jace Control have many flavors that all get lumped together as opposed to other decks that have different categories on that site so it makes it look like the same MUD deck wins every event.

If you look at the decks the site is pulling from for example this http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11642&iddeck=85221 is a MUD deck
and this is an Oath deck (even though it runs 0x Oath MD) http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11590&iddeck=84822

[Malakai]

To try to head off the pissing match:
Legacy is the most diverse format.
Vintage is more diverse and more interesting than would seem at first glance, and I bet many legacy players would enjoy it immensely. I also think many legacy players would hate it. It's worth your time to try it out.

(It's probably worth your time to try the other major formats, as well.)

[HammafistRoob]

There's no fun in playing in rare and small tourneys of about a dozen peeps and half of them playing Dredge and Shop, killing you without having a chance to interact with them meaningful.


This is coming from a storm player? Give me a break.

[kingsey]

This is coming from a storm player? Give me a break.


Exactly. Great post.

[Lemnear]

This is coming from a storm player? Give me a break.

Storm ist preventing you from playing spells at all and the Turn 1 kill-ratio is rather laughable compared to having playsets of Chalice, Lodestone, Thorn, Sphere, Phyrexian Metamorph, Wasteland, paired with singletons like Trinisphere and Strip Mine.

@Drago
DRS is too slow to inferact with Dredge, but RIP made it into the Sideboards of Bomberman ... it's not that RIP offers MUCH more than Leyline of the Void, Dryad Militant or Jixlid Jailer did before :/

@Kingsey
Go crying elsewhere ... if you refuse to play counterspells (blue), discard (black) or permament based hate (mostly white and artifacts) or goodies in red like REB, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc. you simply lose to combo, period.

It's sad that you are unable to get the difference between a) having to choosing ways of disrupting storm based on your colors and sometimes loosing to a turn 1 kill with your turn 2 hate in hand or b) not being able to cast ANY SPELL THE ENTIRE GAME regardless of any of your previous decisions

[bjholmes3]

Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.

I'm not prejudging ... I played Vintage non-stop since 2005 and stopped it last year, because Dredge and Workshop warped the format so much that even Vintage-enthusiasts like Stephen Menendian want the DCI to take actions.

I don't even want to talk in-depth about what was happend to my previous Vintage meta after all the semi- & Unpowered players got crushed by Shop & Bazaar week after week, ending up quitting or getting Bazaar themselves. The claim with 50% Shop and Dredge in my previous meta was no hyperbole. I think, and dare to estimate that others share my point of view, that the current Vintage metagame is as boring and stagnant as it was never before.

Take the results of the Grand tournaments during the last 4 years into account, the numbers tell clearly that Shop & Dredge have extraordinary High placings compared to the total number in the field ... The additional $ so shell out for 4 Workshops/Wastelands could be a reason that it's not more prominent in some areas. Bazaar mimics the issue for the unpowered-crowd. Have you ever seen that a non-dredge-deck won the price for "best unpowered deck" at Bazaar of Moxen? I don't

I doubt that Legacy has the aura of a "diceroll" or "Turn1" format among Standard players and for a long time it was an absurd idea for Vintage too, but being on the draw against Shop and Dredge got me thinking 2 years ago...

[Tylert]

I doubt that Legacy has the aura of a "diceroll" or "Turn1" format among Standard players and for a long time it was an absurd idea for Vintage too, but being on the draw against Shop and Dredge got me thinking 2 years ago...

I'm trying to get my friend, who is a good magic player, into legacy.
His argument for playing legacy is: "I like playing games", turn 3 show and tell, Turn 2 belcher activation or turn two lots of spells into 12 goblins is not fun"
I keep showing him SCG results but he is simply too afraid of the combo decks...

I really think that it's how most standard players see legacy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.
Except that Thresh gives you an opportunity to play your spells and in fact is not really powerful, it's just consistent and all-around good. Even in the worst case scenario (like Stifle + 2x Wasteland) the opponent had some chance to play anything and with a proper decission he'd maybe could fight back.
Otoh, turn1 resistor/Trini/Chalice followed by other lock(s) on turn2 and further on, may easily lead to a game where the Shops' opponent doesn't play a card and in fact never had a chance to play any.

Not a luring format, says a guy who never played it...



I'm trying to get my friend, who is a good magic player, into legacy.
His argument for playing legacy is: "I like playing games", turn 3 show and tell, Turn 2 belcher activation or turn two lots of spells into 12 goblins is not fun"
I keep showing him SCG results but he is simply too afraid of the combo decks...

I really think that it's how most standard players see legacy.
Ok, but was he in a Legacy tournament yet? Even as a mere spectator. He would see there's not much to fear...

[Lemnear]

I'm trying to get my friend, who is a good magic player, into legacy.
His argument for playing legacy is: "I like playing games", turn 3 show and tell, Turn 2 belcher activation or turn two lots of spells into 12 goblins is not fun"
I keep showing him SCG results but he is simply too afraid of the combo decks...

I really think that it's how most standard players see legacy.

"One guy is not a trend", aside that's exactly the point I adressed before: play discard, counter, REB, taxing effects or swallow up defeat.

There are more than enough answers in the format ... I would show him the ways to interact with those "unfair" decks or make him trying to pilot such combo decks himself or watch a tournament: the fun isn't within the combo but the struggle to get it going

[menace13]

Dredge and Shop...
I agree.

Only I think Shops is more polarizing than Dredge is. Certain cards can beat Dredge like, with Leylines. Dredge having one way to win. Narco beatdown being the oh fuk scramble to try and not lose here option. There really isn't a card that stops shop and keeps it down that comes out turn 0 on the draw. Not to make Dredge seem trivial either. Dredge can still win despite 7 card sideboard slots. Because you need a very specific mix of mulling to Leyline, having clock, mana, and way to stop Claim/Chain/Wispmare. While they have few to no Therapies, mana, or answers for it.

[John Cox]

I agree.

Only I think Shops is more polarizing than Dredge is. Certain cards can beat Dredge like, with Leylines. Dredge having one way to win. Narco beatdown being the oh fuk scramble to try and not lose here option. There really isn't a card that stops shop and keeps it down that comes out turn 0 on the draw. Not to make Dredge seem trivial either. Dredge can still win despite 7 card sideboard slots. Because you need a very specific mix of mulling to Leyline, having clock, mana, and way to stop Claim/Chain/Wispmare. While they have few to no Therapies, mana, or answers for it.

Depending on the Mud deck, Goblin welder, oath of druids or even a clock + hate can be problematic for them. Workshop decks are basically the most played rogue/meta deck in the format. Everyone knows there out there but can't dedicate main deck interaction to them due to the fact it will make their other matches worse. Post board its a very fair match up for most decks. I haven't seen dredge do anything worth mentioning in vintage in ages.

[HammafistRoob]

So your argument is there aren't good answers to artifacts? Lodestone isn't anywhere near as back breaking as you're making it out to be. There are combo decks in that format too, and no, we aren't "crying", simply stating facts. You hate games that aren't interactive yet you play storm. You said it yourself if they don't pack discard, counters, or some kind of resistor they deserve to lose, I agree. In vintage if you fail to bring answers to Shops and Dredge you deserve to lose as well. Sure they can get the nuts hand and ignore whatever you do, but can't that happen in legacy too?

[YamiJoey]

Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.

It helps that it's the coolest deck in the format, IMO. ;)

@Tylert: I started in Legacy by building Budget Bob decks that packed way too much discard. The idea was "Don't lose to unfair decks. Deal with everything else the hard way.". I had a boat load of fun, and it was always great to face down a Storm player and make T1 Hymn into T2 Liliana or something stupid and eaqually degenerate. The deck was inherently bad, but it showed me how to find a balance between beating Show and Tell and not dying to Jund. It was also quite cheap, but mostly because I was able to borrow my duals. (And still do a year on. *shame*)

[Lemnear]

Depending on the Mud deck, Goblin welder, oath of druids or even a clock + hate can be problematic for them. Workshop decks are basically the most played rogue/meta deck in the format. Everyone knows there out there but can't dedicate main deck interaction to them due to the fact it will make their other matches worse. Post board its a very fair match up for most decks. I haven't seen dredge do anything worth mentioning in vintage in ages.

Yes, exactly the reason why Vintage storm-combo runs Oath of Druids: to have a chance against Workshop


So your argument is there aren't good answers to artifacts? Lodestone isn't anywhere near as back breaking as you're making it out to be. There are combo decks in that format too, and no, we aren't "crying", simply stating facts. You hate games that aren't interactive yet you play storm. You said it yourself if they don't pack discard, counters, or some kind of resistor they deserve to lose, I agree. In vintage if you fail to bring answers to Shops and Dredge you deserve to lose as well. Sure they can get the nuts hand and ignore whatever you do, but can't that happen in legacy too?

There's a whole article Series written by Brian DeMars in the Web with the topic "on the draw against Workshop"; read how bad it is from another (well known) players perspective. It doesn't Matter if there are "good answers to artifacts" if you never have the mana to play them though Wasteland and resistors or they get simply countered by Chalice of the Void!

As stated above: Vintage storm runs Oath + Griselbrand because Artifact hate won't do it alone against Shops. Not even Nature's Claim is good enough to handle the Brown Menace.

Funny hitting me on Storm while I play Elves and Miracles as well, but lemme tell you that the primer gives me a thrill of being the possibly most skill- and math-intense deck in the format, despite of the challenge to not stumble over your own feets, opponents can interact in several ways with it, like I always presented.

Vintage Shop however often boils down to a single question: "Do you have FoW against my T1 Lockpiece?" ... Often followed by "Do you have enough mana to overcome my manadenial while I play only lands that produce 2+ mana?". There is no Chance to ever Fight back on the draw without FoW because of the redundant nature of Workshop decks. Workshop has more than 4 playsets of resistors and manadenial in it's 60 ... stop comparing it to Storms 4 Dark Rituals (EDIT: not to mention one is an instant that adds +2 mana once in your Pool and the other is a land for +3 you can use EVERY TURN)

In essence: there's still no hate existing that proper handles Workshop decks on the draw and unless you are a blazing fast combo deck there's no way you can win game 1 against Dredge while games 2-3 even remain a struggle even if you board in half your board you had to dedicate to that specific matchup

[HammafistRoob]

What? lol you're almost as good as Cavius sometimes.

[Tylert]

Guys, don't try to convince me :p
I'm having a lot of fun in legacy and i play a fair deck (D&T).

My friend can nearly build merfolk... not the worst deck vs combo as it can easily pack FoW, dazes, Spell pierce, flutterstorm and mindbreak trap...
He just need to learn the meta and pack some hate against combo deck...

However, my point was that i see a lot of T2 players, including my friend example, that think that Legac is only a matter of T1 / T2 kills.

[Lemnear]

Guys, don't try to convince me :p
I'm having a lot of fun in legacy and i play a fair deck (D&T).

My friend can nearly build merfolk... not the worst deck vs combo as it can easily pack FoW, dazes, Spell pierce, flutterstorm and mindbreak trap...
He just need to learn the meta and pack some hate against combo deck...

However, my point was that i see a lot of T2 players, including my friend example, that think that Legac is only a matter of T1 / T2 kills.

That would be indeed sad, because if you watch the SCG coverage, you can easily see that it's not the case.

A sincere advice: don't let your Meerfolk-Friend get the illusion that the flurry of counterspells (especially the crappy MBT) affects TES/ANT ... they all run Xantid Swarm in the side for exactly those decks: Shitload of counters, no removal .

[Tylert]

That would be indeed sad, because if you watch the SCG coverage, you can easily see that it's not the case.

A sincere advice: don't let your Meerfolk-Friend get the illusion that the flurry of counterspells (especially the crappy MBT) affects TES/ANT ... they all run Xantid Swarm in the side for exactly those decks: Shitload of counters, no removal .

He'll learn that a diverse sideboard (Bounce / removal / counters) is the way to go... even if it is the hard way :)

[Lemnear]

He'll learn that a diverse sideboard (Bounce / removal / counters) is the way to go... even if it is the hard way :)

We just don't want him to be discouraged, sitting across a Xantid Swarm with a grip full of counters, thinking "fuck this shit! Stupid Format!"

[DragoFireheart]

That would be indeed sad, because if you watch the SCG coverage, you can easily see that it's not the case.

A sincere advice: don't let your Meerfolk-Friend get the illusion that the flurry of counterspells (especially the crappy MBT) affects TES/ANT ... they all run Xantid Swarm in the side for exactly those decks: Shitload of counters, no removal .

Pongify

[menace13]

Depending on the Mud deck, Goblin welder, oath of druids or even a clock + hate can be problematic for them. Workshop decks are basically the most played rogue/meta deck in the format. Everyone knows there out there but can't dedicate main deck interaction to them due to the fact it will make their other matches worse. Post board its a very fair match up for most decks. I haven't seen dredge do anything worth mentioning in vintage in ages.

The thing with MUD is that it has reigned as the most placing deck in Vintage since October of 2010. Worldwake-Lodestone- was released February of that year, and Scars Mirrodin was October of that year.


So basically in 3 years It has shitted on the format as the most widely top 8'ing deck. Out of those 36~ months, it did not hold its 1st place spot in placings only a paltry 6 times(6 months).

Thirty fukn months as the best placing deck is grossly over placing. Legacy's RUG isn't even half as close to that number.

[DragoFireheart]

Thirty fukn months as the best placing deck is grossly over placing. Legacy's RUG isn't even half as close to that number.

Thank you. Hopefully people will stop claiming that Vintage is fine and healthy.

[YamiJoey]

Guys, don't try to convince me :p
I'm having a lot of fun in legacy and i play a fair deck (D&T).

My friend can nearly build merfolk... not the worst deck vs combo as it can easily pack FoW, dazes, Spell pierce, flutterstorm and mindbreak trap...
He just need to learn the meta and pack some hate against combo deck...

However, my point was that i see a lot of T2 players, including my friend example, that think that Legac is only a matter of T1 / T2 kills.

I was like that for some time, hence why I built my abomination. (Which actually earned me a T8 at my first event. Turns out RUG is weak to Ghost Quarters, my losses coming to Maverick.) I'm sure he'll come around. I started playing Modern first, so that might be a way to do it.

Also fuck Pongify, I want to make Frog Lizards.

[merfolkotpt]

"One guy is not a trend", aside that's exactly the point I adressed before: play discard, counter, REB, taxing effects or swallow up defeat.

There are more than enough answers in the format ... I would show him the ways to interact with those "unfair" decks or make him trying to pilot such combo decks himself or watch a tournament: the fun isn't within the combo but the struggle to get it going

Couldn't the same thing be said to you about dredge and Shops in vintage. I have played Vintage about the same amount of time as you in Ohio, otherwise known as SHops central, and I don't have any issue beating the decks you mention, by playing cards that interact with them.

[Lemnear]

Couldn't the same thing be said to you about dredge and Shops in vintage. I have played Vintage about the same amount of time as you in Ohio, otherwise known as SHops central, and I don't have any issue beating the decks you mention, by playing cards that interact with them.

I'm not a fortune-teller, I have no clue why it's the case, do you always win the Dice? Do you play Annul/Steel Sabotage.dec feat Nature's Claim? Are there no other Gush/storm/BUG decks in your meta you have to habe in mind building a deck which can completely focus on Shop? I don't know...

What I know is, that Dredge and especially Shops overperform worldwide with tactical superior and highly complex interactions like "Workshop, Mox, Chalice @ 0, Lodestone, go" or Turn 1 Thorn, Turn 2 Forgemaster ... just in case we need to continue the Storm-discussion ;D

Please tell me, how you meaningful interact with Shop on the draw without FoW? Land, Mox (hopefully no Chalice), Lightning Bolt the Lodestone? If it's sooooo easy to build a balanced deck between the blue mirror, Shop- & Dredge-matchups, when why do I see multiple Shops and Dredge in every T8? It's not that all the Flusterstorms, Mental Missteps and mana Drains have any impact.

[DragoFireheart]

If it's sooooo easy to build a balanced deck between the blue mirror, Shop- & Dredge-matchups, when why do I see multiple Shops and Dredge in every T8?

Because those are cheaper than Blue decks?

[Malakai]

We just don't want him to be discouraged, sitting across a Xantid Swarm with a grip full of counters, thinking "fuck this shit! Stupid Format!"
Good riddance, we don't want these types of players in the game.

[merfolkotpt]

Lemnear,
Post your most recent list and I can tell you why you aren't beating those decks. My guess is you have too much stuff for the blue mirror and not enough stuff for these MUs.

[Lemnear]

Lemnear,
Post your most recent list and I can tell you why you aren't beating those decks. My guess is you have too much stuff for the blue mirror and not enough stuff for these MUs.

I don't care anymore as other former Vintage World Champs do, as WotC showed for years that they don't give a fuck about the Format either. :(

My latest list was Grixis colored with Bobs, Snapcaster and Lightning Bolts to overcome other players Jaces, Bobs and Lodestone Golems

This is not the Vintage-deckbuiling threat however ;)

[DragoFireheart]

SO which card do you think will get unbanned next?

How about Flash! I think that is a swell card to unban! /troll

They should unban Earthcraft. Might be amusing to see Elves get out of control, though I bet it could be used in some way (which is always fun).

[Lord Seth]

I think Mind Twist is the most likely card to be unbanned.

[jamis]

Yeah, it does feel like they missed an opportunity for an unban. The meta's really open right now, so it feels like a good time to introduce more cards. Hopefully, they were thinking about unbanning Earthcraft, but with the recent legend rule change they wanted to make sure the buff to Gaea's Cradle plus an unban of Earthcraft wouldn't be too much so they're just waiting until next time to unban something.

[bjholmes3]

I don't think Flash is likely to see any kind of unbanning. If anything will keep new players from buying expensive Legacy cards, it's the threat of a Turn 0 loss, no matter how fragile it may be.

I still think that, if something was to be unbanned, it would be along the lines of Black Vise, but I don't personally think that would be a very nice choice, as it would hate decks like Miracles that like to keep well-stocked hands, and those are decks that I feel add nice variety to the format.

[DragoFireheart]

I think Mind Twist is the most likely card to be unbanned.

Yeah Mind Twist looks pretty safe as well. You need lots of mana, which means you need to ramp to make it decent (which could be spent on better things, like winning) or you cast it later on (and discard is usually not good late game).

[DragoFireheart]

My mind is blown.

Four mono-colored decks that are DTB.
Five decks without Brainstorm.
When was the last time this happened?

The meta is VERY healthy. Unban Mind Twist so we can get a mono-colored black deck as a DTB and then talk more shit about how Legacy is the best format and Modern is a shit format? :wink:

[LennonMarx]

Mind Twist is obviously very safe, and it would be cool to have back. The card I think they could 100% unban (but likely won't) is Worldgorger Dragon, and that makes me a sad pandna. "It dies to everything" is still valid, and "everything" now includes one of the most played 1-drops in recent memory.

[DragoFireheart]

Mind Twist is obviously very safe, and it would be cool to have back. The card I think they could 100% unban (but likely won't) is Worldgorger Dragon, and that makes me a sad pandna. "It dies to everything" is still valid, and "everything" now includes one of the most played 1-drops in recent memory.

Dragon dies to most removal.
the Animate Dead dies to Abrupt Decay and can't be countered.
Dragon can be exiled from DRS while in the yard.

Still, some people could draw the game and troll everyone.

[Dice_Box]

My mind is blown.

Four mono-colored decks that are DTB.
Five decks without Brainstorm.
When was the last time this happened?

The meta is VERY healthy. Unban Mind Twist so we can get a mono-colored black deck as a DTB and then talk more shit about how Legacy is the best format and Modern is a shit format? :wink:
Both Goblins and Elves are not Mono coloured. They just have a dominant colour.

[DragoFireheart]

Both Goblins and Elves are not Mono coloured. They just have a dominant colour.

Close enough. Don't ruin my dream of a format where 5 of the DTB are mono-colored!

[Julian23]

Being a practically mono-colored deck, Elves still pretty much scoops to a turn1 Blood Moon on the play.. ;-)

[DragoFireheart]

Being a practically mono-colored deck, Elves still pretty much scoops to a turn1 Blood Moon on the play.. ;-)

Yeah I find this strangely humorous. Elves, a mostly mono-colored deck and a deck that has the ability to generate great deals of mana, scoops to Blood moon on the play.

I feel the same way when a Combo deck scoops to non-blue midrange deck.

[Dice_Box]

Being a practically mono-colored deck, Elves still pretty much scoops to a turn1 Blood Moon on the play.. ;-)
I can not stop laughing right now. So true its sad.

[bjholmes3]

Dragon dies to most removal.
the Animate Dead dies to Abrupt Decay and can't be countered.
Dragon can be exiled from DRS while in the yard.

Still, some people could draw the game and troll everyone.

If you're using the dragon to draw, you're doing it wrong.

[DragoFireheart]

If you're using the dragon to draw, you're doing it wrong.

I probably wouldn't use him at all TBH.

[Lemnear]

You can't draw with Dragon anymore afaik. You have to break that infinite loop with Dragon at some point 'cause Animate Dead doesn't target afaik and that would result in you being forced to find another or no target to not get DQ'd for stalling? Is this correct?

[jamis]

Animate Dead is an aura, so even though its worded strangely, it still targets. As for unbanning WGD, it should definitely stay banned imo. The combo itself is probably not strong enough that it'd make any impact. As already mentioned, there's more than enough answers to it, and you're turning the 2-card combo reanimator uses into a 3-card combo, so you're better off not using it. Still, when you walk into your LGS with WGD, you're the biggest asshole in the room. I mean, does anyone seriously want to play against this deck?

[DragoFireheart]

I mean, does anyone seriously want to play against this deck?

I felt the same way about Stasis decks back in the day.

[LennonMarx]

Animate Dead is an aura, so even though its worded strangely, it still targets. As for unbanning WGD, it should definitely stay banned imo. The combo itself is probably not strong enough that it'd make any impact. As already mentioned, there's more than enough answers to it, and you're turning the 2-card combo reanimator uses into a 3-card combo, so you're better off not using it. Still, when you walk into your LGS with WGD, you're the biggest asshole in the room. I mean, does anyone seriously want to play against this deck?

I assume you are on board with banning High Tide, then?

[jamis]

I assume you are on board with banning High Tide, then?
Time is a concern with WGD since you'll be playing more games on average than other matches, but not a huge concern since the combo itself can be made into a sequence of short-cuts quite easily, so only slower control decks should be going to time against it usually, and those are more used to going to time anyway. My main complaint really is just the fact that the deck can easily draw a game. I have no problem with Wizards' saying that type of strategy shouldn't be allowed.

[Lord Seth]

You can't draw with Dragon anymore afaik. You have to break that infinite loop with Dragon at some point 'cause Animate Dead doesn't target afaik and that would result in you being forced to find another or no target to not get DQ'd for stalling? Is this correct?
My understanding is that if there's another target for Animate Dead, then you can't draw with Dragon because you're forced to end the loop by choosing something else (you can still get all the mana you want first though). However, if there isn't, then it's an inescapable infinite loop and a draw.

[LennonMarx]

Time is a concern with WGD since you'll be playing more games on average than other matches, but not a huge concern since the combo itself can be made into a sequence of short-cuts quite easily, so only slower control decks should be going to time against it usually, and those are more used to going to time anyway. My main complaint really is just the fact that the deck can easily draw a game. I have no problem with Wizards' saying that type of strategy shouldn't be allowed.

In legacy, I'm not even sure how easy the draw condition is, as it requires no other creatures in either yard. And besides, if this deck goes to time it just goes to time, it doesn't take an extra 15-20 (worst case) minutes to go off on top of the regulation 50. Playing the deck in vintage years ago, I think the "worst" match I ever had in regards to total games played was like 2-1-2, and that didn't even go to time. With all the hate that exists now, I just don't see how this is remotely unsafe to unban.

Edit: Didn't intend for the triple negative in the last sentence there. My point was I think the card is safe, in regards to both time concerns and power level concerns.

[dontbiteitholmes]

In legacy, I'm not even sure how easy the draw condition is, as it requires no other creatures in either yard. And besides, if this deck goes to time it just goes to time, it doesn't take an extra 15-20 (worst case) minutes to go off on top of the regulation 50. Playing the deck in vintage years ago, I think the "worst" match I ever had in regards to total games played was like 2-1-2, and that didn't even go to time. With all the hate that exists now, I just don't see how this is remotely unsafe to unban.

Edit: Didn't intend for the triple negative in the last sentence there. My point was I think the card is safe, in regards to both time concerns and power level concerns.

The draw condition is pretty easy considering if the Dragon deck has a non-dragon creature in the yard it's going to be a wincon and the only way they have of putting creatures in your yard is countering them or Thoughtsieze.

I agree Dragon isn't the power level it once was but being able to draw a game so easily is too much IMO. I mean if you are going to die next turn you shouldn't be able to be like "Oh here's half my combo game 4."

[jamis]

In legacy, I'm not even sure how easy the draw condition is, as it requires no other creatures in either yard. And besides, if this deck goes to time it just goes to time, it doesn't take an extra 15-20 (worst case) minutes to go off on top of the regulation 50. Playing the deck in vintage years ago, I think the "worst" match I ever had in regards to total games played was like 2-1-2, and that didn't even go to time. With all the hate that exists now, I just don't see how this is remotely unsafe to unban.

Edit: Didn't intend for the triple negative in the last sentence there. My point was I think the card is safe, in regards to both time concerns and power level concerns.

I agree with everything you're saying. An unban would be very low impact on the meta. However, leaving the card banned sets a precedent. It says that if a deck emerges that exploits the rules about infinite loops, it will not be allowed. The rule about infinite loops is important, because weird situations come up during normal play, but a deck with a focus on creating that game state -- even if not the main focus -- is a different story, and I hope Wizards continues to discourage those kinds of decks.

[GexxX]

From my point of view the meta seems okay right now. Everything is able to perform well and nothing is overpowered. If you consider boring decks banworthy Show and Tell might be an option, but I doubt it is needed. We haven't had any real impact on legacy with Theros and the metagame appeals to be shifting back and forth anyway. Deathblade gone, UWR Delver performing well... I think those are good indications for WotC to leave things as they are.

As for the unbannings, which I would like to see and believe are safe to do:

- Earthcraft. It does not look like this would fit in any existing Tier1 Deck. The Combo with Squirrel Nest is also quite easily stoppable. There are quite a few hatecards I expect to be popular in a few months anyhow. Engineered Plague is good against Goblins, Elves and Merfolk to some extend. Just to name one possible sideboard card. I'm sure this topic has been revealed well enough throughout the thread and I don't have to cover it all again. Just think about what your Decks can do to stop this combo and I am quite sure you'll find enough options if you adress the matter properly.

- Frantic Search. Aside from Spiraltide this card has no real application in any of the decks I can think of. It is to slow for Reanimator, to clunky for tempo lists and no other deck does need to untap lands. It may well be of no impact at all as Spiraltide lists seem to have rare space for any card that is not absurdly powerful.

- Mind Twist. Often said, and I agree. This card just works in a control mirror. With all the taxing spells in Legacy it will harly have any effect on tempo lists, midrange will most certainly have the boardpressure you'll be needing to deal with insted of casting a Mind Twist x>=4 and fast combo will propably laugh about it, as it doesn counter their pieces.

I agree with most of you who are saying Worldgorger Dragon is safe to unban with regards to its power level. I actually do not get the point some of you made with the infinite loops being not what Magic was invented for. Well we have a lot of infinite loops legal in Legacy right now. They are simply unplayable. This beautiful constructed format has an awesome card pool and that is the main reason I play Legacy. Why can't I play what I like and be a Johnny if I want to?

[Fatal]

Probably soon new post about TNN (True-Name Nemesis from Commander Arsenal 2013) will appears here ;). Anyway it deserve it not only from power lvl but worst design card ever - totally non-interactive which indicate unfun - WotC didn't you learn anything from printing Omniscience and Enter the Infinity ?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Probably soon new post about TNN (True-Name Nemesis from Commander Arsenal 2013) will appears here ;). Anyway it deserve it not only from power lvl but worst design card ever - totally non-interactive which indicate unfun - WotC didn't you learn anything from printing Omniscience and Enter the Infinity ?

It's never too soon to complain about a card no one has ever played, this is the Source.

[Derklord]

- Frantic Search. (...) It may well be of no impact at all as Spiraltide lists seem to have rare space for any card that is not absurdly powerful.Frantic Search is absurdly powerful in Tide. So powerful that one could rather easily drop Time Spiral from the list (maybe not the right thing to do but definitly possible).
Nevertheless I doubt that Frantic Search would push the deck into Tier 1 category. If Frantic Search is a problem then not in Tide.

I agree on everything else.

@Fatal: Can we please stop whining about the "non interactiveness"? I don't see everybody crying about the uncounterable and therefor non interactive Abrupt Decay.

[Zombie]

Decay is an answer, not a threat. Nemesis is a threat.

[Darkenslight]

Frantic Search is absurdly powerful in Tide. So powerful that one could rather easily drop Time Spiral from the list (maybe not the right thing to do but definitly possible).
Nevertheless I doubt that Frantic Search would push the deck into Tier 1 category. If Frantic Search is a problem then not in Tide.

I agree on everything else.

@Fatal: Can we please stop whining about the "non interactiveness"? I don't see everybody crying about the uncounterable and therefor non interactive Abrupt Decay.

As Zombie so eloquently 'Nathed before me, TNN is such a bomb, whether it's on an empty board or against most combo - I can easily see a Bant list that Voltrons the hell out of TNN and eats faces. Or you can go UR and play weird cards like Madcap Skills along with Counterburn types.

[Megadeus]

And so it begins

[dontbiteitholmes]

TNN is such a bomb, whether it's on an empty board or against most combo

You can't be quoting that right. Those are the two main situations where it is outclassed by other cards.

[Dice_Box]

True-Name is not a combo killer. Someone playing Combo can just take the 3 a turn and win in a single of their own turns. Save for storm, most combo decks can care less if they are on 3 or less life on their combo turn.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Lemnear]

True-Name is not a combo killer. Someone playing Combo can just take the 3 a turn and win in a single of their own turns. Save for storm, most combo decks can care less if they are on 3 or less life on their combo turn.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

I would kill for someone tapping out turn 3 or turn 2 (with DRS) for TNN (Pun intended)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I would kill for someone tapping out turn 3 or turn 2 (with DRS) for TNN (Pun intended)
Also, a seven-turns clock is pretty unimpressive, esp. when the creature alone doesn't do anything.
I'd fear Teeg/Thalia/Cannonist/Confidant/Goyf/SFM much more than this new dude. And notice these are two-drops, while TNN... Heck, I'd much rather stare at this than at Phyrexian Negator. Or, speaking of color blue, an Illusionary Angel/Sea Drake...

[Derklord]

Decay is an answer, not a threat. Nemesis is a threat.Apart from that fact that i don't see how that changes anything, no. TNN ist not a threat, it is an answer to uncounterable removal (Abrupt Decay and Punishing Fire). Decks don't want to play a 3/∞ for 3.
TNN is really slow for legacy standart and thus bad against combo.

Non interactive? There are whole decks that are non interactive, also called combo decks. How is a single, slow creature worse?
Non interactive? Every single current D2B either doesn't care or can do something against TNN. ANT, Dredge, Elves and S&S can just race it. UGR and UWR can race it, counter it or prevent three mana with Stifle and Wasteland. Jund has Discard and Liliana, Shardless Discard, Counters and Liliana, Miracles has Terminus and counters and DnT can prevent three mana with Prot and Wasteland or attack with pro:blue from MoM.

Yes, TNN is strong, but we already have Goyf and Delver, surely both more format warping than TNN is going to be.

[Lemnear]

Non interactive? There are whole decks that are non interactive, also called combo decks. How is a single, slow creature worse?
Non interactive? Every single current D2B either doesn't care or can do something against TNN. ANT, Dredge, Elves and S&S can just race it. UGR and UWR can race it, counter it or prevent three mana with Stifle and Wasteland. Jund has Discard and Liliana, Shardless Discard, Counters and Liliana, Miracles has Terminus and counters and DnT can prevent three mana with Prot and Wasteland or attack with pro:blue from MoM.

Yes, TNN is strong, but we already have Goyf and Delver, surely both more format warping than TNN is going to be.

More whinning about combo? The only color that lacks decent answers to combo is green. Stop that nonsense.

Something that you and other fail to realize is, that every DtB in the history of Magic tries to minimize the possible interactions of their opponens with their cards. You don't want your creatures handled by removal, you don't want your opponent having mana/time to play spells, you don't wanna see your spells countered, etc. Reducing your opponents possible ways to interact with your deck is one of the most important aspects to winning a game.

[DragoFireheart]

My price prediction of TNN is going to eventually drop to $20-25.

He's good but not super amazing in the grand scheme of things. Certainly not game-breaking like Mental Misstep.

There will be a meta shift and Merfolks will likely make a comeback because of him. I actually think he's terrible in tempo decks like RUG since they don't want a lot of mana and tapping out for three is not good for their plan of cheap threats + disruption. Rug resolving TNN against something like Jund or w/e isn't a big deal between their non-targeted removal and superior threats.

He's much better in mid-rangey/slower decks that want a guaranteed kill condition. A Shardless Deck resolving TNN against RUG is pretty much game over for them: it can block their Gofys and Mongeese all day, they have no ways to remove it, and Abrupt Decay handles their Delver.

tld;r TNN isn't getting banned.

[Fatal]

TNN is just a nail in the coffin for all "fair" decks like RUG/BUG/non-miracle controls, all of them will need MD answer vs this guy - it will just shift those deck to more unplayable or change them to adopt - like MD Engineered Explosives (btw this card will rise in prize).

[DragoFireheart]

TNN is just a nail in the coffin for all "fair" decks like RUG/BUG/non-miracle controls, all of them will need MD answer vs this guy - it will just shift those deck to more unplayable or change them to adopt - like MD Engineered Explosives (btw this card will rise in prize).

BUG already has maindeck answers for it. Discard can grab it and Lilly can sac it. BUG decks might actually like to have TNN main decked.

Most control decks don't care about it.

RuG tempo decks are the ones most in trouble by it. TNN will most likely see play in Merfolk, which means counters do nothing. Burn can't remove it. TNN is a good card but not ban worthy. He's basically a suped up Troll Ascetic.

[Fatal]

Wait for Leyline of Sanctity build...

[DragoFireheart]

Wait for Leyline of Sanctity build...

Golgari Charm.

[BVB09]

No one speaking about Show and Tell after yesterday Top8 in SCG?
Half of the decks were Sneak and Show

[Lemnear]

No one speaking about Show and Tell after yesterday Top8 in SCG?
Half of the decks were Sneak and Show

Why? The whole format is full of Delver and S&T. No news.

[BVB09]

Why? The whole format is full of Delver and S&T. No news.

At least Delver is a creature, and indeed more interactive/fun.
In any case Delver appears in 3-4 diferent decks, but yesterday we got the same deck in half of the top8

[Bed Decks Palyer]

More whinning about combo? The only color that lacks decent answers to combo is green. Stop that nonsense.

Something that you and other fail to realize is, that every DtB in the history of Magic tries to minimize the possible interactions of their opponens with their cards. You don't want your creatures handled by removal, you don't want your opponent having mana/time to play spells, you don't wanna see your spells countered, etc. Reducing your opponents possible ways to interact with your deck is one of the most important aspects to winning a game.
+1.5

I utterly destroyed several people with StifleWaste on last Thu and it wasn't the only time I've done so. Sitting on zero lands, been beaten by a pair of one-mana 3/2 flying Nacatls or by two-mana 4/5 Werebear while knowing that your opponent holds FoW, Snare, Pierce, REB, Daze, Daze, Daze is hardly what I'd call "a fair situation".

[Lemnear]

At least Delver is a creature, and indeed more interactive/fun.
In any case Delver appears in 3-4 diferent decks, but yesterday we got the same deck in half of the top8

Griselbrand and Emrakul are creatures too and are played also in Reanimator, 12-post, Doomsday, Vintage Oath and others. 3 isn't the half of 8 either. All your arguments are invalid.

[Higgs]

I guess the curious thing is why did the invitational guys opted for Sneak&Show instead of OmniTell in general. Topic for another thread..

On the S&T banworthiness etc., I think the people who think it's an overpowered card should take it to 4-5 consecutive events. I had my best and worst finishes with the deck. Sometimes you get all the right cards and feel unbeatable. Sometimes no amount of cantripping can find you the cards you need and your opp. seems to have all the right answers. It's a miserable experience when the deck shits on itself.

[BVB09]

Griselbrand and Emrakul are creatures too and are played also in Reanimator, 12-post, Doomsday, Vintage Oath and others. 3 isn't the half of 8 either. All your arguments are invalid.

Sure 12-post is a tier deck, same as Doomsday. I don't know why are you speaking about vintage.
I suppose those are creatures just the same way as Balustrade Spy and Simian Spirit Guide are.
In any case I was speaking about Show and Tell, not Emrakul or Griselbrand

PD: I can count 4.

Deck Finish Player
Sneak and Show 1st
Sneak and Show 2nd
Shardless BUG 3rd
Sneak and Show 4th
Sneak and Show 5th
Esper Stoneblade 6th
Shardless BUG 7th
U/W/R Delver 8th

[Snapback]

I guess the curious thing is why did the invitational guys opted for Sneak&Show instead of OmniTell in general.

My guess is so they could play Blood Moon, especially vs Shardless BUG.

But on topic, the prevalence of S&S in the top 8 was more that several very strong players chose a well-positioned deck and did well, and less that the deck is so broken that a card needs to be banned. The decks that went 8-0 or 7-1 in the Legacy portion of the event do include 3 Sneak and Show lists, but there's a bit of diversity after that (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2013-10-27&end_date=2013-10-27&city=Indianapolis&state=&country=&start=710&finish=810&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5), including decks like 12-Post, Affinity, Miracles, and Imperial Painter.

[Darkenslight]

My guess is so they could play Blood Moon, especially vs Shardless BUG.

But on topic, the prevalence of S&S in the top 8 was more that several very strong players chose a well-positioned deck and did well, and less that the deck is so broken that a card needs to be banned. The decks that went 8-0 or 7-1 in the Legacy portion of the event do include 3 Sneak and Show lists, but there's a bit of diversity after that (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2013-10-27&end_date=2013-10-27&city=Indianapolis&state=&country=&start=710&finish=810&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5), including decks like 12-Post, Affinity, Miracles, and Imperial Painter.

Indeed. Plus, there was the hilarious game five between BBD and Brad Nelson which showcases the fact that sometimes, variance just kills you: BBD saw the same five cards after about 7 shuffles, including multiple BS-Fetch shuffles. What let the others down, including our Turbo-Eldrazi player Dan, was their Standard portion. It was definitely a Perfect-Storm kind of situation, but nothing so dominant as Clamp season in Onslaught-Mirrodin Standard.

[Norm]

The invitational had plenty of SS because that team of players decided, together, that it was a good meta call for a tournament that usually has a fairly predictable meta.

Nothing to see here

[davelin]

I guess the curious thing is why did the invitational guys opted for Sneak&Show instead of OmniTell in general. Topic for another thread..



Two card combo easier to play than three?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Two card combo easier to play than three?

Yeah people have been sleeping on S&T lately. It's not the monster banworthy deck people made it out to be when Griz dropped but the deck is still real. Ignoring it is comparable to what ignoring Dredge used to be.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think Griselbrand is easily the most ban-able card in Legacy, although I don't think it needs to be banned right now. Show and Tell and maybe Entomb are distant seconds, but I think it's healthy to have those strategies in Legacy. Griselbrand is what pushes those cards to the limit. It's a little insulting that they printed that card with Yawg Bargain being banned.

[Dice_Box]

I do not see Griselbrand getting the boot, not because it is a card that enables some broken play, but because it's RnD's forth go at making their favourite Enchantment do they ever seam to love the dam thing. (Greed tho was a total bust.)

It would take a large amount of people quitting before they touch their pet.

[apple713]

I do not see Griselbrand getting the boot, not because it is a card that enables some broken play, but because it's RnD's forth go at making their favourite Enchantment do they ever seam to love the dam thing. (Greed tho was a total bust.)

It would take a large amount of people quitting before they touch their pet.

forth go at making their favorite enchantment? what were the others?




I think Griselbrand is easily the most ban-able card in Legacy, although I don't think it needs to be banned right now. Show and Tell and maybe Entomb are distant seconds, but I think it's healthy to have those strategies in Legacy. Griselbrand is what pushes those cards to the limit. It's a little insulting that they printed that card with Yawg Bargain being banned.


Also, Griselbrand and Yawg bargain are very different. making a 7 life commitment is very different than giving up 1 life at a time. If you are at 7 life griselbrand can't draw you cards but bargain will still get you 6 cards.

Also, if you turn 1 a bargain you can get 19 cards, if you turn 1 a griselbrand you get 14 cards. decks like ANT would probably stop using Ad nauseum and run 4x bargain.

[Dice_Box]

forth go at making their favorite enchantment? what were the others?
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain (The "Fixed" Necro)
Greed (The reprint in 6th as a way to get people to stop playing the other two. Both where legal in extended at the time and where at this point heavily played.
Griselbrand

They really like the ability. Even should (and I do not see it happening) Brand get the boot, when the memories die away we will see a reprint of this concept. For whatever reason it is both seen as broken in two but so loved they push what really is better left alone.

[apple713]

Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain (The "Fixed" Necro)
Greed (The reprint in 6th as a way to get people to stop playing the other two. Both where legal in extended at the time and where at this point heavily played.
Griselbrand

They really like the ability. Even should (and I do not see it happening) Brand get the boot, when the memories die away we will see a reprint of this concept. For whatever reason it is both seen as broken in two but so loved they push what really is better left alone.

what if they just printed necropotence with a :b: in addition to the 1 life. seems to slow down the bonkers draws

[thecrav]

what if they just printed necropotence with a :b: in addition to the 1 life. seems to slow down the bonkers draws

Still seems way too good in a ritual-powered deck. It would probably be fine in vintage but not legacy.

[apple713]

Still seems way too good in a ritual-powered deck. It would probably be fine in vintage but not legacy.

i don't think necropotence is even played in vintage...no top 8's with it at this year's BoM.

having to :b: might make it too slow to even be used with all of the tempo and degernate combo in legacy. Even if u turn 1 cast it off a ritual you wouldn't be able to draw a card from it until the end of your second turn and since you no longer draw cards normally for the turn you almost lose a turn because you have to pay :b: just to draw 1 for the turn. Late game its great and amazing but other than that the mana restriction along with the delayed draw would make it to slow to be abused.

3 life and 3 :b: for 3 cards is in line with ambition's cost especially with a huge downside of skipping your draw phase and drawing the cards at EoT.

[Dice_Box]

It is played, just not as much as it once was.

Also I dislike talking about Vintage while comparing cards. I mean this is a format where Dredge cares more about having one broken land more than having a card to Dredge with. A LAND. The format is broken in half. Saying something is played less there than it once was does nothing to disprove the fact that the card is bonkers.

[ESG]

Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain (The "Fixed" Necro)
Greed (The reprint in 6th as a way to get people to stop playing the other two. Both where legal in extended at the time and where at this point heavily played.
Griselbrand

They really like the ability. Even should (and I do not see it happening) Brand get the boot, when the memories die away we will see a reprint of this concept. For whatever reason it is both seen as broken in two but so loved they push what really is better left alone.

You're right. This is a recurring theme. Erebos, God of the Dead is the latest representative, though attaching the mana cost to the activation keeps the card in check. I can say that Necro was busted in its era, Bargain was not quite as strong but was still ultimately busted, Greed was playable but not overpowered, and Griselbrand is more busted than all, mainly because it regains the life lost and because there are so many ways to cheat it into play.

[Hardcore]

I recall reading that Wizards do not think they have enough people in RnD to consider the effect of new sets on various formats.
Given that it would be best to ban cards that can cheat other cards into play, wouldn't it? That way they could print whatever they like and be safe evermore.

[dontbiteitholmes]

i don't think necropotence is even played in vintage...no top 8's with it at this year's BoM.

having to :b: might make it too slow to even be used with all of the tempo and degernate combo in legacy. Even if u turn 1 cast it off a ritual you wouldn't be able to draw a card from it until the end of your second turn and since you no longer draw cards normally for the turn you almost lose a turn because you have to pay :b: just to draw 1 for the turn. Late game its great and amazing but other than that the mana restriction along with the delayed draw would make it to slow to be abused.

3 life and 3 :b: for 3 cards is in line with ambition's cost especially with a huge downside of skipping your draw phase and drawing the cards at EoT.

It was played by Reid Duke who top 8'd Vintage World Champs the same day.

Edit - 11-11-13

In before "OMG 10 copies of TNN in SCG top 8 ban Nemesis!"

[Higgs]

My wife knows nothing about MtG and yesterday I was showing her my Miracles deck. She took a look at the cards, picked up Brainstorm and told she like that one best. I guess it doesn't take too much to understand Brainstorm is one hell of a card :D. I thought it was pretty funny, I didn't know where to post this so I picked the B/R thread as Brainstorm is a popular topic here :D

[(nameless one)]

My wife knows nothing about MtG and yesterday I was showing her my Miracles deck. She took a look at the cards, picked up Brainstorm and told she like that one best. I guess it doesn't take too much to understand Brainstorm is one hell of a card :D. I thought it was pretty funny, I didn't know where to post this so I picked the B/R thread as Brainstorm is a popular topic here :D

It's funny how I was teaching a guy at work how to play Magic. He had a no rare Soldier Tribal and I have a no rare U/R Pyromancer deck. He thought Pyromancer was cool but he thinks Brainstorm is broken with Terramorphic Expanse. This guy only started playing magic 4 days ago.

[Erdvermampfa]

Recent results indicate that True-Name Nemesis is indeed ban-worthy, just look at the latest SCG Top 8.

[Lemnear]

Recent results indicate that True-Name Nemesis is indeed ban-worthy, just look at the latest SCG Top 8.

Don't confuse "dominance" with "hype"

[testing32]

Recent results indicate that True-Name Nemesis is indeed ban-worthy, just look at the latest SCG Top 8.

Cards played at the last SCG open top 8 -

Brainstorm - 28
Force of Will - 26
STP - 24
Stoneforge Mystic - 22
TNN - 17

The meta is still shifting. Maybe, after GP Paris we will know enough to form real opinions.

[Julian23]

The meta is still shifting. Maybe, after GP Paris we will know enough to form real opinions.



Legacy:
Craterhoof Behemoth is banned.

[Lemnear]

Legacy:
Green Sun's Zenith is banned. If your name is Julian Knab, consider Quirion Ranger banned as well.

Fixed

[Erdvermampfa]

I suggest to ban Delver of Secrets, Show and Tell and True-Name Nemesis to improve the overall gaming experience in our format.

edit: Thinking of what we have to face nowadays, Delver seems kind of harmless actually...but it should have been banned from the beginning anyways..

[apple713]

I suggest to ban Delver of Secrets, Show and Tell and True-Name Nemesis to improve the overall gaming experience in our format.

edit: Thinking of what we have to face nowadays, Delver seems kind of harmless actually...but it should have been banned from the beginning anyways..

yeah lets ban anything with a blue border and anything that produces blue mana....

[Erdvermampfa]

It wasn't specifically about blue cards but about those cards which severely exceed the acceptable power level or harm the games health otherwise.

And coincidentally, those happen to be blue.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about the unbanning of Survival. Abrupt Decay, Griselbiscuit, and the general increased power level of the format makes the Survival decks much less scary... I think it would be a sweet way to mix up the format. We DON'T need to be like Modern and ban everything that does well. I am strongly in favor of doing the opposite which is experimenting with reasonable unbannings.

[Megadeus]

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about the unbanning of Survival. Abrupt Decay, Griselbiscuit, and the general increased power level of the format makes the Survival decks much less scary... I think it would be a sweet way to mix up the format. We DON'T need to be like Modern and ban everything that does well. I am strongly in favor of doing the opposite which is experimenting with reasonable unbannings.

Dont forget drs and rest in peace

[apple713]

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about the unbanning of Survival. Abrupt Decay, Griselbiscuit, and the general increased power level of the format makes the Survival decks much less scary... I think it would be a sweet way to mix up the format. We DON'T need to be like Modern and ban everything that does well. I am strongly in favor of doing the opposite which is experimenting with reasonable unbannings.

survival actually helps strategies with griselbrand, At least potentially. it becomes a 1 card combo. survival for griselbrand and then loyal retainers...Yeah i'd play that for sure.

[Barook]

Dont forget drs and rest in peace
And Surgical Extraction and Scavenging Ooze which can also handle Vengevine.

I think the tutor part is way more problematic.


survival actually helps strategies with griselbrand, At least potentially. it becomes a 1 card combo. survival for griselbrand and then loyal retainers...Yeah i'd play that for sure.
It should also work with Emrakul in response to its trigger. If you wanted to, you could also throw in some Anger into the mix.

More expensive than S&T or Tin Fins, but almost a 1-card combo (you still need a generic creature to get going).

[Megadeus]

And a pile of green mana, and to be playing all of those colors, and to play a sufficient number of creatures to consistently be able to activate survival, then also have the room to run protection/disruption

[Gheizen64]

Yeah honestly right now i could see survival getting off the list. Multiple vengevines don't really seems scary now, and neither do T3 Ionas with SnT around. At least it would force people to play some more green and would cement green as the best creature color again even with Delver and TNN around.

[barcode]

There is a snowball's chance in hell of Survival getting unbanned. It's degenerate and format warping.

[Dice_Box]

I just read an article that said Mana Leak is too powerful a card in Modern. This leads me to think RnD has zero fucking clue about this game in general so the idea that anything has zero chance at being unbanned is false. Control of this game is in the hands of morons.

On a personal level, I do not want to see Survival off the list but I would be happy enough with another strong deck in the format if it did come off. I do not think the card is safe, but that would not stop my from abusing the hell out of it.

[kiblast]

The format has the tools to fight SotF properly or at least to buy plenty of time. We have entire grave based archetypes winning on turn 1 or 2 with just one or two single spots of possible interaction with opponent,whereas SotF provides various different times of possible interaction, unless you are going with Loyal Retainers- Griselbrand but that actually happens rarely on turn3, normally turn4.
But what SotF allows that no other card does is a repeatable tutor with no card disadvantage. Wotc hates tutoring in Legacy. Survival legal means any Gxx midrange deck has to throw in 4 md just because it's legal. It doesn't promote format diversity because becomes the Misstep of green creatures decks. SotF is like one thousand times better than GSZ. There would be little to no reason not to play GWx Maverick Survival, or Bant Survival. Maybe Jund Survival (the old RGBSA).
That said I'd love to have it back. It's by no means a fair card, because gives an engine to creatures decks and various possible instant win conditions. Maybe with Vengevines banned so it's not a brainless card anymore. But I believe that legacy has been given lots of good cards to fight survival recently...sure they can grab Revoker for your Deathrite, grab Soul Collector for your Extirpate/Surgical, grab Qasali to fight your Rest in Peace… but I think that with Vengevines banned it's legality would not be detrimental for legacy.

[(nameless one)]

Survival legal means any Gxx midrange deck has to throw in 4 md just because it's legal. It doesn't promote format diversity because becomes the Misstep of green creatures decks. SotF is like one thousand times better than GSZ. There would be little to no reason not to play GWx Maverick Survival, or Bant Survival. Maybe Jund Survival (the old RGBSA).

I'm not trying to argue here with you because I understand your whole post. But whenever I see this logic, I can't help it to ask "What about Brainstorm or True-Name Nemesis?"

[miguelmatix]

Maybe they could restrict some cards in legacy as a "One of" (like vintage). This way we could play survival, mystical and MAYBE vampiric/ seal.

[Feaor]

Maybe they could restrict some cards in legacy as a "One of" (like vintage). This way we could play survival, mystical and MAYBE vampiric/ seal.

How is this any different than playing Vintage? The restricted list only makes sense in Vintage because Vintage is the only format which does not ban cards for power level reasons so to ensure that the format isn't just vomit moxen onto the table and combo off turn 1 or get locked out by a turn 1 chalice for 0, they have to limit some of the more powerful cards so the format is actually playable. The restricted list doesn't work in other format because as soon as you want to restrict a card you basically have to say, if this card is good/powerful enough to be restricted, why isn't it good/powerful enough to be banned? Plus having restricted cards makes games more swingy and higher variance, sometimes you just lose because your opponent drew their 1-of broken card and that doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

On Survival, Survival is never coming back no matter what hate is printed. Sure there are more cards which interact with Survival than before but the quality of creatures that Survival can find is higher than before and it will keep getting better. Plus its a repeatable tutor that can tutor up answers in response to hate, while also being able to assemble combos by itself, and being able to grind people out by generating enormous advantage. I don't see how that's remotely fair compared to what other decks are trying to do. But you might say that we could just ban Vengevine/Ooze/Retainers and then Survival would be fine, and then I would question whether you actually read why they chose Survival over these cards, Survival will keep getting better with each set and since Wizards doesn't actually test legacy when they create new cards, the chance of them just printing another Vengevine is pretty high and thus banning the enabler makes the most sense.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I'd really like to see an updated poll for most bannable card in Legacy. It'd also be cool to see a poll for most UNbannable card in Legacy. I laugh every time I read this thread and see Phyrexian Dreadnought at the top.

[Dice_Box]

About a dozen pages back we had a talk about the poll. The agreed outcome was leave it be as a demonstration to just how things have changed and also how silly people can be with their wants.

[Infinitium]

The poll isn't so much wants as it is contemporary with the SDT banning in Extended. It seemed like a safe bet at the time. Survival is welcome off the list far as I'm concerned; it never was as much as a tutor as a graveyard engine enabler (in a vaccuum, 1GG and 2 cards just doesn't justify getting silver bullets, hence why it never dominated pre-VV) - and there have been plenty maindeckable hate printed since, as well as the ubiquitious surgical extractions for the VV plan post-sideboard. Sure it could be concidered unsafe by whatever metric is being used, but then all legacy staples are.

[miguelmatix]

How is this any different than playing Vintage? The restricted list only makes sense in Vintage because Vintage is the only format which does not ban cards for power level reasons so to ensure that the format isn't just vomit moxen onto the table and combo off turn 1 or get locked out by a turn 1 chalice for 0, they have to limit some of the more powerful cards so the format is actually playable. The restricted list doesn't work in other format because as soon as you want to restrict a card you basically have to say, if this card is good/powerful enough to be restricted, why isn't it good/powerful enough to be banned? Plus having restricted cards makes games more swingy and higher variance, sometimes you just lose because your opponent drew their 1-of broken card and that doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

On Survival, Survival is never coming back no matter what hate is printed. Sure there are more cards which interact with Survival than before but the quality of creatures that Survival can find is higher than before and it will keep getting better. Plus its a repeatable tutor that can tutor up answers in response to hate, while also being able to assemble combos by itself, and being able to grind people out by generating enormous advantage. I don't see how that's remotely fair compared to what other decks are trying to do. But you might say that we could just ban Vengevine/Ooze/Retainers and then Survival would be fine, and then I would question whether you actually read why they chose Survival over these cards, Survival will keep getting better with each set and since Wizards doesn't actually test legacy when they create new cards, the chance of them just printing another Vengevine is pretty high and thus banning the enabler makes the most sense.

At least someone could play with SOTF... Come on... it's such a cool and fun card. No one plays it (no even in Vintage). It is more balanced than Show and tell for sure. lol

[Dice_Box]

Ok, I hate SnT as much as the next Red Mage but I will defend it where it's due. SnT will only let you play one card, one time and not let you go looking for more. With SnT you need your combo in hand, that's a far different situation to Fittest.

[Lord Seth]

I just read an article that said Mana Leak is too powerful a card in Modern.Odd. Source?

[Barook]

So what are they going to do next? Ban Mana Leak in Modern? :confused:

[Dice_Box]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/191

"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules. Similar to why the Swords are so powerful—their costs were locked in before people really understood how to price Equipment—Mana Leak is a relic of a bygone era."

"We realized, though, that to solve our Mana Leak problem we really wanted to print something like Boseiju, Who Shelters All—some kind of land that everyone could play that would incidentally blow some hate in Mana Leak's direction. So we decided to add "Boseiju" text to the card that became Cavern of Souls."

[Fatal]

As much as I love SotF will never goes back to legal card pool - its still very powerful - imagine Elves with it ;], on the other side SotF looks too slow to current format compared to S&T variation - it really changes since VV/Ooze domination, probably some playtests are needed to answer this question.

[Darkenslight]

As much as I love SotF will never goes back to legal card pool - its still very powerful - imagine Elves with it ;], on the other side SotF looks too slow to current format compared to S&T variation - it really changes since VV/Ooze domination, probably some playtests are needed to answer this question.

I suspect that Survival's main issue is that it's both an engine and a finisher all on its own.

[Star|Scream]

I just read an article that said Mana Leak is too powerful a card in Modern.

Huh? That article is over a year old, and it's about standard.

[Dice_Box]

Oh shit, I mistook it for Modern.

My opinion remains unchanged, control of this game is in the hands of people who do not actually play it, only those whom read data and make choices purely on personal opinion. I would like to see some change at the top.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The Mana Leak bunkum is a fine example of how they treat this game. While "15/15 omnomnom6" - ppl, I love this quote! - is fine, something as shitty as conditional counterspell ain't. Oh, what a game.
Really the mere fact that there's no real Tempo in Modern (not to mention in Standard) makes me laugh. Seriously, looking at the old decklist that packed Daze, Foil, Gush, Mis-D and Thwart, or Unmask and Snuff Out. or Land Grant plus Vine Dryad, or you know whatever else, leaves me wondering what's wrong with the whole idea of alternative mana costs and such stuff. Ok, Mental Misstep wasn't the best card ever, otoh, I can't believe that Modern is meant to be a cmc4.format.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

The Mana Leak bunkum is a fine example of how they treat this game. While "15/15 omnomnom6" - ppl, I love this quote! - is fine, something as shitty as conditional counterspell ain't. Oh, what a game.
Really the mere fact that there's no real Tempo in Modern (not to mention in Standard) makes me laugh. Seriously, looking at the old decklist that packed Daze, Foil, Gush, Mis-D and Thwart, or Unmask and Snuff Out. or Land Grant plus Vine Dryad, or you know whatever else, leaves me wondering what's wrong with the whole idea of alternative mana costs and such stuff. Ok, Mental Misstep wasn't the best card ever, otoh, I can't believe that Modern is meant to be a cmc4.format.

Glad ya like it ^_^

The biggest problem that comes with alternative costs is the lack of color identity for a lot of them. Phyrexian mana was a big, BIG problem in this regard, as pretty much everything with it can be splashed into any deck that would use it (in MM's case, that was everything).

Other than that, I dunno: I have no problem with them myself, but Wizard's contemporary R&D policy makes me scratch my head.

[Lord Seth]

The Mana Leak bunkum is a fine example of how they treat this game. While "15/15 omnomnom6" - ppl, I love this quote! - is fine, something as shitty as conditional counterspell ain't. Oh, what a game.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure decks with Emrakul were a heck of a lot less dominant in Standard than UW Delver was.

Eldrazi Green was certainly overshadowed in its respective Standard environments by Jund and Caw-Blade.

[Megadeus]

What about hellcarver demon eldrazi strategies? (I tried my hardest to make it work)

[mini1337s]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure decks with Emrakul were a heck of a lot less dominant in Standard than UW Delver was.

Eldrazi Green was certainly overshadowed in its respective Standard environments by Jund and Caw-Blade.
Emrakul was just in the Eldrazi Green/Summoning Trap decks. Valakut was easier and more consistent to play if you wanted a quick finish, and Caw-Blade was just too good at control the board state.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure decks with Emrakul were a heck of a lot less dominant in Standard than UW Delver was.

Eldrazi Green was certainly overshadowed in its respective Standard environments by Jund and Caw-Blade.

Wait, I'm not talking avbout particular metagame/format, I'm more concerned by the fact that while stupid "I win!" cards are fine in the eyes of R&D, the best counterspell is either conditional cmc2 or unconditional cmc3 double U. Lolwut?

[bjholmes3]

Well, in all honesty, it's a good marketing decision. I spend lots of time trying to teach new people Magic, and it's universal: if you Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Emrakul, they are impressed (now, if it was a longer combo, they might get bored), but if you counter everything they try to do, they're pissed. See, they don't expect to win, but they do expect to play, and when they aren't used to circumventing hate, they feel like they don't get to play at all. So, R&D is simply pandering to the majority party of people that do not play Magic in an attempt to get them to, well, play Magic.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Well, in all honesty, it's a good marketing decision. I spend lots of time trying to teach new people Magic, and it's universal: if you Show & Tell into Sneak Attack into Emrakul, they are impressed, but if you counter everything they try to do, they're pissed. See, they don't expect to win, but they do expect to play, and when they aren't used to circumventing hate, they feel like they don't get to play at all. So, R&D is simply pandering to the majority party of people that do not play Magic in an attempt to get them to, well, play Magic.

Yu-Gi-Oh! the Gathering: where players don't care if a game ends by turn 2 with no interaction, but flip tables when you do interact with them.

EDIT: Let me clarify: I love M:tG. I'm glad I made the conversion from YGO to M:tG. But contemporary R&D policy has me scratching my head so much that, sadly enough, I will only play Legacy or EDH now. Formats where there is indeed degeneracy, but also ways to stop said degeneracy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's it.
I do understand that it's frustrating to never have one spell resolved, but so is the Dark Confidant into Liliana, into Pulse, into Goyfs, Goyfs, Goyfs, into gg. I still don't know what's so broken about Counterspell, while Emrakul and similar Timmy stuff is fine. Really, I'm not interested in Necro Summer 2.0 (or anything similarly broken to happen) in Standard, but I'm just surprised that there's no cheap countermagic in this game anymore, because little boys do cry.


See, they don't expect to win, but they do expect to play...
While I once again get your point, this is the exact reason why I quit the Casual/EDh long long ago. First of all: isn't having my creature countered the same as having it Terrored once it etb? Second: since when it is "not playing" when the opponent coutners something? Third: ok, so if itS' so painful to lose to counterspells, what about strategies that laugh at it, like uncounterability, undercosted dudes, my own CS, lands destruction, Ashen Ghouls, all that stuff. Seriously, this is so Timmy: lay lands until turn seven, then run head first into Counterspell and learn the lesson; but instead of changing your strategy/playstyle, next time just bring Emrakul.
IDK, that's pretty crappy way of MtG.

Also, although this might be good for starters and casual horde, I still don't get it why there are no other tempo tools available in Modern. Lets say we got Snare and Pierce and that's about it. Is Daze so pretty powerful it can't be reprinted anymore? I know that color identity is a thing, but honestly Shoals (and several Traps) were very good at this. Are Contagion-like spells too good for Modern?

[Barook]

It's somewhat hypocritical to hate on counters alone. Every blowout by stupid shit you can't do anything about feels bad.

My personal guess is that you need counters to interact with counterspells. That's why it feels bad for many players. It's another case of blue having everything, including the best answers to itself. That's how inbred the color is.

[Lord Seth]

Wait, I'm not talking avbout particular metagame/format, I'm more concerned by the fact that while stupid "I win!" cards are fine in the eyes of R&D, the best counterspell is either conditional cmc2 or unconditional cmc3 double U. Lolwut?
Except the article was talking about a particular format, namely Standard. I don't see any dissonance between thinking that a card that was a bit player in its respective Standard (Emrakul) is not a problem whereas a card that was a big part of a dominant deck (Mana Leak) was problematic.

I do think there was a fair amount of stupid in that article, but I don't see the relevance of the Emrakul analogy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's somewhat hypocritical to hate on counters alone. Every blowout by stupid shit you can't do anything about feels bad.

My personal guess is that you need counters to interact with counterspells. That's why it feels bad for many players. It's another case of blue having everything, including the best answers to itself. That's how inbred the color is.

This is not 100% true:

Discard beats counterspells.
Cheap dudes beat counterspells.
Sideboard stuff like City of Solitude beats counterspells. (Yet casuals don't use sideboard, as sideboard is unjust and cowardly.)
Uncounterable non-Timmy cards beat counterspells, while not necessarily being a "You lose!" stuff.
Recuring threats beat counterspells.
Numeral advantage beats counterspells. (Try counter everything when three players pact against you.)
Etc.

Casuals are imbeciles. They first make a law saying "this and that is unjust, cowardly and against the spirit of competi... sry, communal game MtG is" and then they're surprised that they lose to Dissipate.

No matter what, I still don't see any reason why there can't be tempo tools in Modern, but fortunately I don't see any reason why should I play the format, so it doesn't hurt me so much. :smile:


EDIT:

Except the article was talking about a particular format, namely Standard. I don't see any dissonance between thinking that a card that was a bit player in its respective Standard (Emrakul) is not a problem whereas a card that was a big part of a dominant deck (Mana Leak) was problematic.

I do think there was a fair amount of stupid in that article, but I don't see the relevance of the Emrakul analogy.
Ahem... But I didn't write about a particular format! I simply don't care what's happening in some Standard (that won't be Standard anymore in three/six/nine months), I'm writing about the whole game. I dislike the mere idea that Mana Leak is a problematic card, while 15/15 omnomnom6 dude isn't. This makes a pretty fugly view of game's future, you know? More Timmy stuff, less interaction.

[Lord Seth]

Ahem... But I didn't write about a particular format! I simply don'T care what's happening in some Standard (that won't be Standard anymore in three/six/nie months), I'm writing about the whole game. I dislike the mere idea that Mana Leak is problematic card, while 15/15 omnomnom dude isn't. This makes a pretty fugly view of game's future, you know? More Timmy stuff, less interaction.
But the relevant article was about a particular format.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

But the relevant article was about a particular format.

And I tried to move discussion further from one particular format. But...

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQV2LuVrHEjBWuxdN1Km25RuaBvgOUNeQCqhDhqxMVKnazivv5

[Dice_Box]

But the relevant article was about a particular format.
Yes, it was, and I will admit my flaw there. I would like to point out this though:
"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules."

Basicly, if they had their time over, according to the rules they have set themselves for all sets, this card would not have seen print to the Modern format. That's a touch crazy, a two cost Tax counter is now seen as too powerful to print.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes, it was, and I will admit my flaw there. I would like to point out this though:
"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules."

Basicly, if they had their time over, according to the rules they have set themselves for all sets, this card would not have seen print to the Modern format. That's a touch crazy, a two cost Tax counter is now seen as too powerful to print.

This.

Also, I don't see Memory Lapse in Modern. Not that it's that powerful spell, but seen how there are very few tempo tools available, one needs not to wonder, why the Top8s are Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund, Affinity, Jund.

Nice fromat.

[Megadeus]

Because all of the players that are actually good that play the format just play whatever they are told is the best deck

[Norm]

Because all of the players that are actually good that play the format just play whatever they are told is the best deck

That's ignorant. The good players test the top decks and settle on one based on it's expected performance in a field, and comfort level. If results are pointing to a select few top decks then it's because they're exactly that.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

That's ignorant. The good players test the top decks and settle on one based on it's expected performance in a field, and comfort level. If results are pointing to a select few top decks then it's because they're exactly that.

True, but what does that say about the format when it is indeed Jund and Affinity with Merfolk trailing behind by 6 Top 8s?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Modern

And just to compare, here's Legacy for this month as well.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy

Not knocking on Modern players, just find the format a bit . . . limiting . . . in terms of viable strategies.

[Dzra]

Not knocking on Modern players, just find the format a bit . . . limiting . . . in terms of viable strategies.

They haven't seemed to figure out that some cards will always be better than other cards. Banning the good cards doesn't always make more cards viable; it just makes different cards viable... and usually the less fun ones at that.

[Scott]

They haven't seemed to figure out that some cards will always be better than other cards. Banning the good cards doesn't always make more cards viable; it just makes different cards viable... and usually the less fun ones at that.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/69297616805/in-modern-only-powerful-cards-get-played-so-it-needs#notes

*shudder*

[Megadeus]

My real point being that people are not creative and just net deck the shit out of modern. No pros ever bring a brew anymore. I mean to be fair, everytime they brewed a deck, it was hilariously broken and it got banned, but the fact is that at this point, is that non Jund/Affinity can definitely win. The pros and grinders of the format however would rather just play Jund Affinity Twin or Tron.

[Megadeus]

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/69297616805/in-modern-only-powerful-cards-get-played-so-it-needs#notes

*shudder*

MaRo is so much fail. He embodies what is wrong with magic. He seems to basically just take anything that non casuals enjoy and shit all over its chest.

[thefringthing]

Magic's target demographic is Bobby, the kid who buys maybe a couple of packs per set and plays at his friend's kitchen table. There are a million times more of that kid than there are of Neville, the neckbearded brony Legacy player who doesn't buy any packs at all and spends his free time composing 4000-word essays about why True-Name Nemesis is no fun. It just doesn't make any business sense for anyone to care about Neville. Maro's blog, and for that matter the entire organized play program, exists to advertise the game to Bobby.

[Lord Seth]

My real point being that people are not creative and just net deck the shit out of modern. No pros ever bring a brew anymore. I mean to be fair, everytime they brewed a deck, it was hilariously broken and it got banned, but the fact is that at this point, is that non Jund/Affinity can definitely win. The pros and grinders of the format however would rather just play Jund Affinity Twin or Tron.
Is that really any different from Legacy, though? How often, if at all, does someone's "brew" actually do well? You basically see the same decks in Legacy Top 8's over and over, and even the ones you're a bit surprised to see score a Top 8 are still established decks people knew about (e.g. you might be surprised to see High Tide get a win, but the deck is established and hardly a brew).

Maybe you're going with a different definition of "brew" than I do; to me a "brew" is something that's a genuinely original deck that hasn't been seen before that does really well. And that's pretty rare to see in Legacy.

[Dzra]

Is that really any different from Legacy, though? How often, if at all, does someone's "brew" actually do well? You basically see the same decks in Legacy Top 8's over and over, and even the ones you're a bit surprised to see score a Top 8 are still established decks people knew about (e.g. you might be surprised to see High Tide get a win, but the deck is established and hardly a brew).

Maybe you're going with a different definition of "brew" than I do; to me a "brew" is something that's a genuinely original deck that hasn't been seen before that does really well. And that's pretty rare to see in Legacy.

I agree, but I don't really think that it's a problem. Once an eternal format is established, there are basically only two ways for completely new brews to appear. One is for a card to be printed that has a unique interaction with a previously underplayed card. The other is for changes in the ban list to turn previously suboptimal or unplayable cards into more desirable ones. In any other case, new cards that are good enough will simply slide into relatively established archtypes filled with other good cards. Again, there's not a problem with that; you just have to have reasonable expectations for what a format can do.


Magic's target demographic is Bobby, the kid who buys maybe a couple of packs per set and plays at his friend's kitchen table. There are a million times more of that kid than there are of Neville, the neckbearded brony Legacy player who doesn't buy any packs at all and spends his free time composing 4000-word essays about why True-Name Nemesis is no fun. It just doesn't make any business sense for anyone to care about Neville. Maro's blog, and for that matter the entire organized play program, exists to advertise the game to Bobby.

This is quite possibly the case, but I'm not entirely sure why. Magic isn't successful because of the neckbeards that never leave their home, but magic isn't successful due to the assortment of Bobbys that may play FNM irregularly or may never leave their kitchen tabletop. Magic is successful due to the players in the middle. They are the skilled players that regularly attend FNM, local PTQs, and local big tournaments like SCGs, GPs, etc. If it weren't for the grinders, new players would have nothing to aspire too.

There's a reason that Bobby buys the MTG packs instead of Pokemon or some other game or a book or bubble gum or whatever. Even if Bobby never does more than an FNM every other week, he still gets to idolize the guys that win tournaments, whether it's 4-0ing every FNM or taking down a GP. If R&D wants to dumb MTG down and suck all the skill out of the game then there is no reason for skilled players to play the game, and that means that the Bobbys of Magic have no heroes.

[Barook]

Maybe you're going with a different definition of "brew" than I do; to me a "brew" is something that's a genuinely original deck that hasn't been seen before that does really well. And that's pretty rare to see in Legacy.
That's because the number of staples in the format is very high. One of the consequences is less innovation. The reason why the metagame isn't stale are its cycles where archetypes rotate in and out, so we're fine.

What are reasons to play Modern? Being somewhat cheaper than certain Legacy decks? Price support? Because as a format, it's fucking horrible. I think it's quite ridiculous that Wizards bans the fun out of a format and then expects people to like it. They banned Wild Nacatl, for God's sake. Legacy has a deep card pool that helps to balance most of the problems that can occur. Modern can't do that in its current state and Wizards doesn't print answers to "solve" the format.

Edit:

If R&D wants to dumb MTG down and suck all the skill out of the game then there is no reason for skilled players to play the game, and that means that the Bobbys of Magic have no heroes.
I don't think Bobby aspires to become this:

http://media.g4tv.com/images/blog/2005/10/24/632657712105904528.jpg

[Lord Seth]

I agree, but I don't really think that it's a problem. Once an eternal format is established, there are basically only two ways for completely new brews to appear. One is for a card to be printed that has a unique interaction with a previously underplayed card. The other is for changes in the ban list to turn previously suboptimal or unplayable cards into more desirable ones. In any other case, new cards that are good enough will simply slide into relatively established archtypes filled with other good cards. Again, there's not a problem with that; you just have to have reasonable expectations for what a format can do.I don't think it's a problem either. But I object to the argument that "in Modern you can't win with brews!" as an argument in favor of Legacy because I don't see Legacy as particularly conducive to them either.

[Dzra]

I don't think Bobby aspires to become this:

http://media.g4tv.com/images/blog/2005/10/24/632657712105904528.jpg

I'm not so sure really. We already lost the "cool" kids from the start. The giant nerds are busy doing even nerdier shit in poorly lit basements somewhere. We're working with the middle-of-the-road nerd, the guy that gets excited when their friend texts them a spoiled new planeswalker but not so excited that he forgets about date night with the gf. Maybe they aren't aspiring to become cheeky, overweight guys, but I'm pretty sure most repeat MTG players have indulged in the fantasy of "going pro," even if only in their own head.


I don't think it's a problem either. But I object to the argument that "in Modern you can't win with brews!" as an argument in favor of Legacy because you can't really do that in Legacy either.

Oh yeah, I never meant that you could. Modern and Legacy both favor the staples and long-established archtypes, although Legacy does have more established, playable archtypes. The biggest difference between the formats is: Would you rather play some of the most powerful and skill-testing cards in magic or would you rather play their watered down, neutered equivalents? I don't want to Serum Visions; I want to Brainstorm. Urza can keep his shitty lands; I want City of Traitors and Cloudposts. I don't want to flinch when I see a bunch of undercosted artifacts pop into play on turn one; I'd rather chuckle and then proceed to play approximately 19 Dark Rituals and a Grapeshot (for the rub-ins).

[Megadeus]

Is that really any different from Legacy, though? How often, if at all, does someone's "brew" actually do well? You basically see the same decks in Legacy Top 8's over and over, and even the ones you're a bit surprised to see score a Top 8 are still established decks people knew about (e.g. you might be surprised to see High Tide get a win, but the deck is established and hardly a brew).

Maybe you're going with a different definition of "brew" than I do; to me a "brew" is something that's a genuinely original deck that hasn't been seen before that does really well. And that's pretty rare to see in Legacy.

Fair point, though I think Modern is much less established. There is certainly unexplored territory there. People just from the get go were all over Jund, Affinity, Cloudpost, Twin. And A lot of people instead of actually looking at the rest of the stuff that hadn't been played yet just never changed decks. There is definitely unexplored potential in Modern is what I am saying. A guy at my LGS Thursday was playing a Mono Blue devotion deck of sorts with Grand Architect and Master of Waves and it played Slate of Ancestry to just go fucking broken. If he were a better player and had tuned his deck a bit he would've probably beaten me and Top 8'd. My point being that there are stll powerful things that you can win with, but most people that I see play modern don't even try.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Fair point, though I think Modern is much less established. There is certainly unexplored territory there. People just from the get go were all over Jund, Affinity, Cloudpost, Twin. And A lot of people instead of actually looking at the rest of the stuff that hadn't been played yet just never changed decks. There is definitely unexplored potential in Modern is what I am saying. A guy at my LGS Thursday was playing a Mono Blue devotion deck of sorts with Grand Architect and Master of Waves and it played Slate of Ancestry to just go fucking broken. If he were a better player and had tuned his deck a bit he would've probably beaten me and Top 8'd. My point being that there are stll powerful things that you can win with, but most people that I see play modern don't even try.

I think Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune could have it's uses in a Rock shell. Not sure how it would work out though.

[nedleeds]

It's harder in Legacy to have a completely new 75 because the card pool is too old with too many clear choices. I.e. we have the beta dual land cycle. We have Swords to Plowshares and it's tough (not impossible) to justify another 1cc white creature removal spell if that's what you are looking for in your 'brew'.

Modern is wide open to win with any well constructed 'brew' because it's the first eternal format for the generation of players who would never even think to build their own deck. Modern from the ground up was on MODO and spammed all over the deck / strategery sites. The modern breakdown locally is like 70% card for card 75s, 20% unsleeved garbage / childs standard deck because the modern tourney is free so why not try, 10% decks the creators believe to be original or not netdecked.

In modern you have to accept a few things

1) Sometimes you are going to mulligan to find lands or spells, maybe to 5 lets say and you'll just draw garbage and lose. You had no hope because there's no spells that can salvage a mulligan like Brainstorm, Top, Stoneforge, Ancestral Recall etc.. This is frustrating but all the efficient card / deck manipulation is gone from the format.

2) There are 2-3 derp I win 2 card combos that you just might not be able to stop given your inability to filter your draws or accelerate your mana (outside of dorks). Sometimes you aren't playing blue or mindcensor/teeg and you just get scapeshifted by a shaved ape. Sometimes an unbathed child top decks splinter twin and you don't have removal and had to burn your removal earlier. Sometimes a feral mouthbreather just casts Summoner's Trap, you Mindcensor him and he still finds Emrakul.

3) As a rule of thumb the play skill / rules knowledge / card pool knowledge is ~50% of the average legacy players. Most are standard converts. I'll sit there ticking a fucking imperial regimen of planeswalkers upwards with like 2 ghostly prisons out and my opponent won't freely attack my walkers with his men. God forbid you have a chalice out, it'll be a counterspell auto-cannon.

I think the format is fine, I'd tweak the b/r list a little bit though. There are a few things on it right now that aren't as irritating or offensive or 'derp' as some stuff that's unbanned. The whole derp kiki-jiki or derp-shift thing to me is no less offensive then a slow dredge deck with GGT with no Dread Return.

[nedleeds]

I think Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune could have it's uses in a Rock shell. Not sure how it would work out though.

Both at least are moderately useful on their own unlike some of the other life.dec combos.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't think it's a problem either. But I object to the argument that "in Modern you can't win with brews!" as an argument in favor of Legacy because I don't see Legacy as particularly conducive to them either.

Tell that to Caleb.

[(nameless one)]

I currently don't mind Modern. I play the format (I play mono blue Tezzerator) but I don't own half of my cards. I just borrow them from my friends.

I think Modern would be better if it had more disruption (like Mental Misstep). Maybe other cards can be unbanned.

I think it's okay that the format doesnt have Brainstorm because it's what makes true aggro actually viable.

In Legacy, true aggro isn't viable anymore because the control player can already control the game by turn 2-3 in which the Aggro player can't really do much anymore.

Its funny because the fear of Legacy isn't about losing to a turn one combo anymore but rather having your hand/board/the stack controlled by your opponent by turn 2 all thanks to the most efficient disruption/board control cards held together by real efficient cantrips and card draws. Personally I don't mind this as it makes for an intelligent game but you can't argue that to the players who cry about how Mana Leak is too powerful.

I think the current state of Modern is as is because of my point above.

[Megadeus]

There's a "true aggro" deck in the format?

[nedleeds]

I think the Affinity Galvanic Blast deck probably qualifies, as well as the mono red goblin shared animosity decks qualify. The fucking Knight deck I lost to was pretty god damn aggro when I had a hand full of bolts and he had every pro red man ever printed.

[Megadeus]

Forgot affinity was a thing. That is true. That Knights deck was... weird. White Weenie knights featuring Mainboard Wrath of god. Sure thing.

I kind of forgot. Why are we discussing modern on this post again?

[Lord Seth]

There's a "true aggro" deck in the format?
If we look at the TC Decks link (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Modern&fecha=2013-12) that was made earlier, for December the #2 deck in Modern was Affinity, the #3 was Merfolk, and #6 was Zoo. Now to be fair, Merfolk and Zoo being so high up is a very recent development (compare their placings in November (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Modern&fecha=2013-11)), so perhaps that's just a temporary shift in meta. Though Merfolk has long been an "okay" deck. Still, Affinity has been one of the best decks in the format for a long time.

That said, much depends on what you mean by "true aggro," because Affinity functions quite differently than your regular ol' aggro deck.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I currently don't mind Modern. I play the format (I play mono blue Tezzerator) but I don't own half of my cards. I just borrow them from my friends.

I think Modern would be better if it had more disruption (like Mental Misstep). Maybe other cards can be unbanned.

I think it's okay that the format doesnt have Brainstorm because it's what makes true aggro actually viable.

In Legacy, true aggro isn't viable anymore because the control player can already control the game by turn 2-3 in which the Aggro player can't really do much anymore.

Its funny because the fear of Legacy isn't about losing to a turn one combo anymore but rather having your hand/board/the stack controlled by your opponent by turn 2 all thanks to the most efficient disruption/board control cards held together by real efficient cantrips and card draws. Personally I don't mind this as it makes for an intelligent game but you can't argue that to the players who cry about how Mana Leak is too powerful.

I think the current state of Modern is as is because of my point above.

Anyone who complains Mana Leak is too powerful is an idiot. This includes Wizards. Oh a Standard deck has Hexproof creatures and we didn't realize Hexproof is about 10x better than Shroud so it's all undercosted. Standard has Git Probe, Thought Scour, and Ponder. Standard has equipment for the hexproof creatures to carry. Standard has a free burn spell and a black spell that can be played by any color. Oh standard also has a free counterspell and Delver. Standard also has a flash creature that allows all these spells to be replayed. Standard also has a 3/4 flyer with flash that negates removal blinks a creature (including Snapcaster) and allows for the most annoying combat tricks in recent memory. Did I mention all these cards are in the same deck, oh and it runs Delver, of course. Oh by the way the problem with Standard right now is Mana Leak. Seriously about the least aware thing Wizards has ever said IMO.

[Dice_Box]

Someone put that in the Quotes thread, I have the last two posts so it's out of place for me to do it.

[Dzra]

Since the TNN thread was closed as I was typing this long ass post, I'll go ahead and post it here. lol


Stuff like Thalia doesn't get the job done.

Actually, cards like Thalia and Deathrite Shaman are exactly the kind of cards that we need to see. They are both powerful creatures outside of Blue that punish the opponent's use of cheap instants and sorceries. The problem isn't that Thalia is bad; it's that there aren't enough good creatures like her. We don't need some sort of shitty Notion Thief anti-Brainstorm hate. Give Red things like a :1::r: Pyrostatic Pillar with legs and it'll see play.


Saying "I don't want Brainstorm banned because I like the card" is fine, it's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just like I can say, "I want Necropotence unbanned because I like the card" and despite the incredulity of my opinion it's still my opinion.

Except resolving Necropotence wins you the game almost on the spot. Resolving Brainstorm makes your hand a little better.


The skill intensive line is a favorite one of mine because it implies that one of the ban criteria is that a card that's hard to use should be allowed to exist because of it's depth.

No one says that there aren't other skill intensive cards in the format.


Brainstorm makes targeted discard (an as skillful magic task as resolving a Brainstorm) a miserable effort in the middleing turns (2-4).

... and this is problem because Black should have unhindered access to the most powerful/flexible removal in the game?


Brainstorm supercharges other powerful cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Lion's Eye Diamond, <all fetches>.

This is an eternal format, I don't see a problem with good cards making other good cards better. LED makes Infernal Tutor better. Griselbrand makes SNT better. Compared to that, shipping two extra land out of my hand and then fetching seems fine.


By fact Brainstorm removes much of the skill in deck building (which basically nobody does anyway, so maybe it's moot), since if you have Island and fetchlands and no (Chalice on 1 or Chains) there are no common reasons not to run it. Only the most threat dense no fetch blue decks that tap out during their turn would eschew it (see: Merfolk).

As you point out, there are decks that simply don't want Brainstorm. Those tend to be the linear aggro or combo decks that don't really care about what their opponent is doing because they perform the same tasks in every game and thus have no need to filter selective answers out of their hand. These decks, decks like Fish and Oops All Spells are what would benefit most from a Brainstorm banning. Sounds good right?


By fact Brainstorm removes much of the risk or decision making during mulliganing as it and a fetchland can effectively unmulligan your hand. This alone would merit ban consideration compared to some of the refuse that sits on the banned list currently.

This sounds like a great argument to unban more cards. I don't see what it has to do with banning Brainstorm. Again, all we are saying is that Brainstorm + fetchland is a two-card combo that has the potential to make your hand at most 50% better, depending on what you draw.


It's ubiquity and efficiency aren't debatable. It's power level isn't much more debatable. So to sit here and actually debate a 1UU 3/1 that doesn't win the game upon entering the battlefield being ban worthy while Brainstorm runs rampant is laughable.

Is your problem that a lot of people like playing Brainstorm or that other colors are less powerful than Blue? A lot of people will always like playing Brainstorm, so yes, if your goal for some reason is to see a significantly smaller number of Brainstorm decks then the most efficient way to do that is to just ban Brainstorm. If your goal is to make non-Blue decks more viable then your strategy should be getting more powerful non-Blue cards, especially creatures, printed. Thalia was a good start for White; Ari Lax won eternal weekend with Death and Taxes (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/eternal13/legacy#6a) in the current TNN-meta after all. A Pyrostatic Pillar.creature would be a good start for Red.

[Dice_Box]

On Brainstorm, I feel the issues with it are twofold and fixable.

First issue, that it does push blue. Brainstorm is the most powerful card in the format, no if's or buts. It has favourably found itself compared to Recall, it's able to just do things other card can not and there is nothing like it in any other colour. This I think brings it the hate it gets, fully deserved and not without merit

The second issue is that it's a card without equal that is also without good hate. Yes Chalice can stop it, but you have to build your deck around Chalice to use it. Chains is not really a maindeck card and only people like myself whom have come to admit we are addicted to the game but don't care would buy one.

So the answer is easy, print hate. Make the card even more skill extensive as now you have to play it around hate cards. Black can have Chains on legs, Red can have Burn, White increased tax effects and Green could have creatures that grow in size for each card drawn. They may not be perfect answers, but they are a start.

Brainstorm does not need a ban, it needs an equaliser. I personally hope that we see one printed some day.

[apple713]

Brainstorm does not need a ban, it needs an equaliser. I personally hope that we see one printed some day.

agreed. The equalizer needs to be better cards in other colors though, not something that interacts with brainstorm. The other colors need something to search and dig with.

[Dice_Box]

But they already have that with Top and the small amount of Scry cards that exist. My Painter deck runs Magma Jet not for the burn ability of the card.

[apple713]

But they already have that with Top and the small amount of Scry cards that exist. My Painter deck runs Magma Jet not for the burn ability of the card.

yeah but there needs to be more cards like sensei's top for the other colors. Not saying it should be colorless. It should be unique to the color but every color should have something solid that fills the role of brainstorm in increasing consistency for those colors.

Scry is a very weak ability as it exists right now. Its very very limited. Theros brought some decent cards to the mix, but nothing for legacy.

[Barook]

Actually, cards like Thalia and Deathrite Shaman are exactly the kind of cards that we need to see. They are both powerful creatures outside of Blue that punish the opponent's use of cheap instants and sorceries. The problem isn't that Thalia is bad; it's that there aren't enough good creatures like her. We don't need some sort of shitty Notion Thief anti-Brainstorm hate. Give Red things like a :1::r: Pyrostatic Pillar with legs and it'll see play.
Thalia, ok, but DRS seems like a stretch since it can utilize your own spells as well.

I'm all for printing more powerful hatebears on Thalia level. Despite the depth of the format, there are some blind spots that are poorly addressed, e.g. Brainstorm or cheating stuff into play from non-graveyard zones. Chains with legs (and a combat-relevant ability) and Pyrostatic Pillar dude sound like a good start - actually, they're pretty overdue. Chains wordy, but its essence could be easily dumbed down to something like this:


Faust :1::b:
Creature - Human Wizard
Deathtouch
Spells and abilities can't cause players to draw cards.
2/1

I'm also waiting for the red hatebear that nukes players for stuff cheated into play or played for free. Nice FoW - take another 5. Emrakul? Take 15.


yeah but there needs to be more cards like sensei's top for the other colors. Not saying it should be colorless. It should be unique to the color but every color should have something solid that fills the role of brainstorm in increasing consistency for those colors.

Scry is a very weak ability as it exists right now. Its very very limited. Theros brought some decent cards to the mix, but nothing for legacy.
Top doesn't fit every strategy anyway. Scry has the problem that it causes extra costs that make most spells unattractive for Legacy.

Red could easily have a card-neutral loot spell for card filtering that doesn't involve fucking random discard for once.
Black has good card draw, not just cheap one.
White - no idea.
Green draw is mainly associated with creatures. Why not some cheap creatures that manipulates the library? Like a Mirri's Guile with legs which you can also GSZ for?

[davelin]

I love some of these creature ideas. Since green is supposed to be the enemy of blue, how about something like -

Greater River Boa (1G)
Protection from Blue
1/1
When an opponent draws a card outside their draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~

[Bed Decks Palyer]

agreed. The equalizer needs to be better cards in other colors though, not something that interacts with brainstorm. The other colors need something to search and dig with.

That's what I wrote not a week ago. Imao it's either time to throw away the whole idea of color pie, now when blue is all over it. Or, they should make some blue hosers. Or thrid: lets design viable antiblue deck... Maverick 2.0


I love some of these creature ideas. Since green is supposed to be the enemy of blue, how about something like -

Greater River Boa (1G)
Protection from Blue
1/1
When an opponent draws a card outside their draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~
This is not symmetrical enough. You may still play your own BS. (And the opponent may BS in draw.)

Swift Rattlesnake (1G)
Flash
When an opponent draws a card outside their draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
When you draw a card outside of your draw step, remove a +1/+1 counter from ~.
1/1

Otoh, see how many Lorescale Coatls are played, even though you may feed them with your own BS. Be dependant on a BS that opponent might play... meh. Dude needs flash at the very least.

[Erdvermampfa]

Size is something that matters the least in magic, we don't need something that outgrows them but that punishes them so much for doing the usual overpowered shit that people actually start to reconsider if it's worth to run Brainstorm/Force/Show and Tell etc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Size is something that matters the least in magic, we don't need something that outgrows them but that punishes them so much for doing the usual overpowered shit that people actually start to reconsider if it's worth to run Brainstorm/Force/Show and Tell etc.

True. So one dmg per card?

[Barook]

True. So one dmg per card?
Are your from Wizards' R&D? "Opponent does something broken. Better ping him for 1 damage, that sure will show him!"

History shows that pinging won't do jackshit. Depending on what the opponent does, shocking or bolting are the absolute minimum to punish your opponent. When a player gets 2 damage per drawn card from Brainstorm, they would quickly start to reconsider their position, especially in multiples. And when an opponent cheats an Emrakul into play, he deserves a 15 damage nuke to the face, not some lousy one damage itty-bitty pingy-stingy.


Size is something that matters the least in magic, we don't need something that outgrows them but that punishes them so much for doing the usual overpowered shit that people actually start to reconsider if it's worth to run Brainstorm/Force/Show and Tell etc.
Absolute symmetry is key here. Otherwise, said cards just end up in blue decks.

[davelin]

That's what I wrote not a week ago. Imao it's either time to throw away the whole idea of color pie, now when blue is all over it. Or, they should make some blue hosers. Or thrid: lets design viable antiblue deck... Maverick 2.0


This is not symmetrical enough. You may still play your own BS. (And the opponent may BS in draw.)

Swift Rattlesnake (1G)
Flash
When an opponent draws a card outside their draw step, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.
When you draw a card outside of your draw step, remove a +1/+1 counter from ~.
1/1

Otoh, see how many Lorescale Coatls are played, even though you may feed them with your own BS. Be dependant on a BS that opponent might play... meh. Dude needs flash at the very least.

I think lack of flash is fine, I was thinking ProBlue so that TNN wouldn't be able to block it forever.

[davelin]

Are your from Wizards' R&D? "Opponent does something broken. Better ping him for 1 damage, that sure will show him!"

History shows that pinging won't do jackshit. Depending on what the opponent does, shocking or bolting are the absolute minimum to punish your opponent. When a player gets 2 damage per drawn card from Brainstorm, they would quickly start to reconsider their position, especially in multiples. And when an opponent cheats an Emrakul into play, he deserves a 15 damage nuke to the face, not some lousy one damage itty-bitty pingy-stingy.


Absolute symmetry is key here. Otherwise, said cards just end up in blue decks.

Or just make it cost GG

[Lord Seth]

"Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, its controller loses life equal to its converted mana cost if they didn't cast it from their hand."

[EpicLevelCommoner]

S&T Hatebear - 1BG
Creature - Human Shaman
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy target nonland permanent. Its controller puts a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
2/2

TNN Hatebear - 1R
Creature - Dwarf Soldier
Haste
Flanking
Provoke
2/1

[L0cke]

S&T Hatebear - 1BG
Creature - Human Shaman
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy target nonland permanent. Its controller puts a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
2/2

TNN Hatebear - 1R
Creature - Dwarf Soldier
Haste
Flanking
Provoke
2/1

Wouldn't work, provoke targets iirc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Are your from Wizards' R&D? "Opponent does something broken. Better ping him for 1 damage, that sure will show him!"
... And when an opponent cheats an Emrakul into play, he deserves a 15 damage nuke to the face, not some lousy one damage itty-bitty pingy-stingy.
Are you from MTG Salvation? Where have you read that I wish to ping someone for one dmg after they cheat in Emrakul?

[Gheizen64]

Some twist on Tariff would do good for SnT, and, strangely enough, could be decent against TNN too. A 1 mana instant tariff could be decent enough already to be playable maindeck and make TNN much more manageable.

[Barook]

"Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, its controller loses life equal to its converted mana cost if they didn't cast it from their hand."
Seems narrow. Too narrow. It doesn't stop Omniscience. If you put it into play with S&T, it will also miss the crucial trigger because Emrakul is already in play.

While it doesn't exactly address the "cheated into play" issue since it would also hurt ramp players, I think this wording would proof to be more flexible and thus overall more playable:


"Sacrifice ~: ~ deals damage to each player equal to the highest converted mana cost among permanents that player controls."

Now you can slam it on the board in anticipation to Sneak Attack or whatever and it hits S&T stuff. It also has potential to kill Planeswalkers, but that's besides the point. If that ability is too good for Standard because Timmy cries about his ramp deck, make it Eternal-exclusive.

[Nielsie]

Before I read the last pages of the TNN thread I was against banning Brainstorm. It seemed to me like a pillar that Legacy needs or it would collapse. But then I read all those Go Blue! posts and damn are those posts arrogant.

If I understand the Go Blue! camp correctly: Brainstorm has to stay because it is a skillfull card (yeah, very skillfull: dig 3, find answer. My dog can do that...) and it makes the top tier decks so consistent. That is why all the pro's play Brainstorm. Without Brainstorm we would all depend on varience, so let's call that with the right word: luck. So what the Go Blue! camp is saying is actualy: because I play Death and Taxes I will never be a skillfull player and I will only win because I had more luck than my opponent?!?!

Well screw that! I now agree that we should test a ban on Brainstorm, ban it and revaluate it the next ban round. But you know what, to say it with the words of the Go Blue crowd: don't fear, the meta will adapt to it!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

None of the above solves he BS/consistency issue, though.

As much as I love the card, Tariff is shitty. Unless you make it one mana instant, no one will play it, because right now there's that old Tariff that no one plays. I'm not sure if it's reasonable, because it could be too good, otoh, we have some one mana removal already available, so yeah, lets print either
- Path to Customhouse instant for W that makes all players pay-for-or-sac their most expensive creature (sadly this is just a worse Curfew and check how many of them is played), or
- Roam and Rang instant for WW that makes all players pay-for-or-sac/return their most expensive permanent (but this would be a weird narrow card)

These also don't solve the consistency/filtering issue. I'm quite fine with the idea of color pie that prevents gren from killing creatures, black from destroying artifacts, etc., but only as long as some conditions are fulfilled:
- color pie is strict, not that blue can everything while the poor remaining colors just suck
- there's a filtering/draw in other colors so that they may get to their cards that still follow the rules of color pie, yet the players are not limited to topdeck them.

I think that blue's power of manipulation is seriously overdone and as there's some card in every set, it won'tget better. Been able to draw what you need, avoid floods/screws, unmulligan, raw card draw, these all are very important features that decide who wins the game. A player/color with better tools for these tasks wins in a longer run, because all things equal, the more consistent deck wins. After all it doesn't matter if your win condition is Alert Shu Infantry or Belbe's Percher, but the fact that you draw it when you need and whenever you need it, decides the game.

White could use some kind of Sylvan Library / Island Sanctuary remake:

Sylvan Sanctuary :w::w:
Enchantment

At the beginning of your upkeep
look at the top three cards of your library
and put them back in any order.

You may skip your draw step. If you do so,
creatures without flying or islandwalk can't
attack you until your next turn.



Blue has enough of filtering tools.



Black could get some draw, the only trouble is how to make it useless in blue decks, esp. in combo.

Make Imps :b::b:
Tribal Sorcery - Imp

Put a black 1/1 token named Small Imp
onto the battlefield, then lose X life
and draw X cards where X is the number
of imp creatures you control.



Red might get non-random Looting.

Better Tibalt :r::r:
Planeswalker - Tibalt

+1: Discard a card, then draw a card.
+0: Put a red 1/1 Human token otb.
It has "First strike on opponents' turns".
-6: Each opponent sacrifices all lands.

2



Green is easy, it gets some kind of cantrip owl.

Sage Sprite :g::g:
Creature - Faerie Advisor

Flying
When ~ etb, scry 2, then draw a card.

1/1



EDIT:
Brainstorm hosers. Some of them might be too powerful for Standard, so lets introduce them via Commander or similar products.

Boros Jailhouse (WR)
Enchantment

Whenever any opponent draws a card
outside that player's draw step,
you gain two life and ~ deals 2 dmg to
that player.



Aven Mightcensor (WB)
Creature - Bird Something

Flash
Flying
When ~ etb, players can't draw cards until eot.

"Neverrrmorrre!"

1/1



Savannah Dude (WG)
Creature - Cat Spirit

If a player would draw a card, that player may pay :x:
where X is Savanah Dude's power. If that player doesn't,
he or she skips that draw.

"Meow!"

1/1



Underworld Imp (BR)
Creature - Imp Shaman

Whenever an opponent draws a card,
~ deals two damage to that player.

1/1



Orzhov Tavern (BW)
Enchantment

At the beginning of your upkeep choose an opponent.
That player skips all draws until your next upkeep.
That player may pay :2: to ignore this effect until eot.

"I won't try the mushrooms." - Norin the Wary.



Bayou Dude (BG)
Creature - Ooze Thallid

Whenever a player draws a card, put a
1/1 Fungus token otb.
Sac three Fungi: each opponent discards a card.

2/2



Goblin Anathemancer (RB)
Creature - Goblin Shaman
If a player would put a card on top of library,
that player puts two cards on top of library instead.

2/2




Heroes vs. Monsters (RW)
Tribal Enchantment - Minotaur Knight

If a player would draw a card, that
player instead searches his or her library
for a creature card, reveals it, puts it into hand
and then shuffles the library.



Taiga Dude (RG)
Creature - Rare Kavu Hatebear

Blue spells cost additional :u:
more to play.

2/2




Stomping Ground Dude (GR)
Creature - Uncommon Kavu Hatebear

Blue spells cost additional :1:
more to play.

"Roarrr!"

2/2



Chapel of Still Mind (GW)
Enchantment

Spells that draw cards can't be played.



Golgari Trading Post (GB)
Enchantment

As ~ etb, choose an opponent.
Whenever chosen opponent draws two
or more cards from one effect or spell,
that player discards a card.

[Erdvermampfa]

Before I read the last pages of the TNN thread I was against banning Brainstorm. It seemed to me like a pillar that Legacy needs or it would collapse. But then I read all those Go Blue! posts and damn are those posts arrogant.

If I understand the Go Blue! camp correctly: Brainstorm has to stay because it is a skillfull card (yeah, very skillfull: dig 3, find answer. My dog can do that...) and it makes the top tier decks so consistent. That is why all the pro's play Brainstorm. Without Brainstorm we would all depend on varience, so let's call that with the right word: luck. So what the Go Blue! camp is saying is actualy: because I play Death and Taxes I will never be a skillfull player and I will only win because I had more luck than my opponent?!?!

Well screw that! I now agree that we should test a ban on Brainstorm, ban it and revaluate it the next ban round. But you know what, to say it with the words of the Go Blue crowd: don't fear, the meta will adapt to it!

A game like MTG has to stay unfair to preserve its appeal and Blue offers this feeling of supremacy as it's clearly advantageous to other colors which still get played regardless. I think we all know that Brainstorm should get banned because you can cite plenty of convincing and well-founded reasons for a ban of it and pretty much every criteria of previous bans applies to the card well. In my view, the reason Wizards doesn't take action against it is because people seem to be fine with the ills of the format and welcome blue's dominance after all.

[Dice_Box]

That argument is flawed. Not about Brainstorm but about people welcoming blues dormancy. I personally would love to see all colours equal, I play mostly Red. I see blue as the path of lest resistance and I look at the people that play nothing but blue the same way I look on people whom play Xcom on easy. Your welcome to play the game, but your not getting the full experience.

[YamiJoey]

That argument is flawed. Not about Brainstorm but about people welcoming blues dormancy. I personally would love to see all colours equal, I play mostly Red. I see blue as the path of lest resistance and I look at the people that play nothing but blue the same way I look on people whom play Xcom on easy. Your welcome to play the game, but your not getting the full experience.

I didn't realise it was April already.

Brainstorm is the most powerful and most skill intensive Spell in the whole of Legacy. Saying Blue is easy and that you 'play mostly Red' says everything we need to know, really.

[Dice_Box]

Haha, ok cute, now your going to attack me personally. I like where this is going. Decks I play include Painter, Elves, Dredge and Goblins. Not a single one is easy to play. So yea, I play red, I like red, that does not make me an unskilled player looking for easy wins.

Also, you should read some of my posts and you will see my views on Brainstorm. They do include that the card takes skill, but it take less skill to play a deck that let's you pick the next 3 cards, then the next 3 cards, then the next 3 cards. That's not skill, Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm, you add them up and your not talking skill, your talking taking the easy way out of trying to make a deck work.

Here is something to think about. I drop a Ringleader and I am at the mercy of that top deck, I do not have to like it, but I have to play around it. It actually takes more skill to know when to pull the trigger on cards, when to play what and when to risk a top deck only situation when you do not have the safety net that is filtering. Yea, I play mostly Red, and I am fucking proud of it. Because it shows I have learnt long ago how to play without that net others just can not live without.

Oh and don't get me wrong, I know that net wins games, I know it's the best way to play if you want to win consistently, but I have an age old unnatural love for Onslaught Goblins, so yea, take your blue and go and play it for me. That way your Forces can keep Beltcher from killing me with more goblins than I have in my whole deck. I will respect your choice to play the easy way, but that doesn't mean I have to take your shit if you want to belittle my choice.

Dice.

[Darkenslight]

I didn't realise it was April already.

Brainstorm is the most powerful and most skill intensive Spell in the whole of Legacy. Saying Blue is easy and that you 'play mostly Red' says everything we need to know, really.

This is utterly incorrect; Doomsday is the most powerful and most skill-intensive spell in Legacy. Brainstorm is the most broken draw spell in Legacy; it allows you to:

1) See multiple cards on turn one unaided;
2) Avoid discard, to a point;
3) Considerably increase consistency in conjunction with fetchlands; and
4) Increases round-times (though admitedly not on the scale of SDT).

BS the most-powerful one-drop in Legacy - it's why most Blue decks start their lists with "4 Brainstorm".

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Brainstorm does not need a ban or an answer. While it is very easily the most powerful 1-drop cantrip in Legacy and enables consistency for blue decks, it also promotes all forms of non-aggro that decide to splash blue for consistency.

That includes at least (4 (U+1 colors) + 6 (U+2 colors) + 4 (U+3 colors) + 1 (U+4 colors)) * 4 (combo, tempo, midrange, control) = 60 possible archetypes/color+strategy combinations aided by Brainstorm. Granted, not all of these put up results OR use brainstorm, but to simply say it deserves a ban because of its power-level is ridiculous when it actually helps diversify a format as opposed to polarizing it.

And before someone says, "but what about non-blue decks and/or aggro decks?", let me ask y'all if you seriously think its a smart idea to not run blue for Force of Will (or any decent counterspell/disruption for that matter) in a format with some of the most game-breaking spells and combos available?

[feline]

I think to say one this or that is more skill intensive is a bit bold to say, as different things are more, or less skill intensive for different people depending on how they play.

Having said that, I'll go back to what this thread is and post as I have every so often in a while, that they really need to just unban Mind Twist. Even if they did, I doubt it'd see format warping play. People are using their dumping their hands for enough mana to kill people on turn 1, or make a bunch of 1/1 goblins. Not many will trade in a potential turn 1 kill, for a lesser turn 1 "your hand is gone, pass."

TL:DR? Unban Mindtwist already!

[Dice_Box]

Brainstorm does not need a ban or an answer all it needs is everyone to play it and stop playing non blue decks? That's your suggestion? That's... I got nothing I can say to that.

[PirateKing]

While I don't think Brainstorm needs a ban, it would be nice if there were more reasons to not play it. Right now it's risk free beyond Chains of Mephistopheles and Notion Thief. If they gave other colors the tools to punish greedy card draw, then it won't look as appealing to players. Print something like

Screw You Brainstorm
:1::r:
Creature - Dwarf Berserker
First Strike
If an opponent would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in each of his or her draw steps, Screw You Brainstorm deals damage for each card drawn.
2/1
or

Butterfly Tender
:1::g::g:
Creature - Snake Shaman Rebel
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, instead the player puts a 0/1 Butterfly token into play.
Butterflies have " :1:, sacrifice this creature: draw a card"
1/3

Suddenly, colors that are not blue give blue players reason not to auto-include 4 brainstorm into every list ever. They still will, but now it comes with a trade off, and that's the point.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Brainstorm does not need a ban or an answer all it needs is everyone to play it and stop playing non blue decks? That's your suggestion? That's... I got nothing I can say to that.

Of course you have nothing to say to that because that's not what I said. All I said was Brainstorm does not need a ban or an answer, because it actually diversifies the format, despite the lack of non-blue decks.

If anything, I suggest creating better cantrips for the other colors as well as better disruption, most notably for red and green.

[Dice_Box]

You said Brainstorm does not need a ban or a ballancer because it's the most powerful card that everyone can splash for. Then you add why would you play anything but a deck with force. In short, why play anything other than a blue deck running Brainstorm and Forces.

Personally that's not an answer to the issue, that's a recipe for disaster.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

You said Brainstorm does not need a ban or a ballancer because it's the most powerful card that everyone can splash for. Then you add why would you play anything but a deck with force. In short, why play anything other than a blue deck running Brainstorm and Forces.

Personally that's not an answer to the issue, that's a recipe for disaster.

I agree: there should be a reason to play non-blue non-combo. But it's because of combo that blue is so prevalent. Hence why I suggest better dig spells and disruption for the other colors.