All B/R update speculation.

[DragoFireheart]

I think if you were wanting some form of U unblockable to be represented in the format, TNN had to do everything that it does.

Bullshit. They could have just taken Invisible Stalker, gave it 2 more power, and make the mana cost UUU. Powerful, but difficult to splash and there's more removal that could impact it AND it couldn't just chump block everything in the format. None of these 4-color Deathblade horseshit with mini-Progenitus carrying a Jitte and turning sideways and face-smashing until you died.

The Protection from Player went too far.

[Arsenal]

I've actually been liking the flavor of TNN a lot more recently. Its like the ultimate Invisible Stalker, but for the extra U, you get 2 power and "can't be damaged", kind of like an Invisible Stalker/Fog Bank love-child. The card's really good, but considering the next most playable variant is what, Blighted Agent? Shadowmage Infiltrator? No one plays these cards. I think if you were wanting some form of U unblockable to be represented in the format, TNN had to do everything that it does.

Making the protection-from-player a trigger instead of a static ability would've made all the difference. Still would've been highly played, but not nearly as uninteractive and board dominant as it currently is.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I love the card but I understand the frustration of playing against it. That's why I am worried about Monday. That and the disappearance of several non-blue decks that only until recently held a respectable place in the format. Right now I probably feel the same as a SotF player right before it's banning. This has me all goosebumpy and my stomach in knots. I love this card but it is killing things that probably shouldn't die.

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[Dice_Box]

We interrupt this pissing match for an important announcement: https://mobile.twitter.com/TrickMTG/status/426385719989665792?screen_name=TrickMTG

[Arsenal]

I've been playing with nothing but UW Stoneblade since November 1st, but would LOVE to see TNN get the axe. I play with him only to not lose (a lot) to other decks that play with him. I'd love to see him go and have more non-blue decks have a fighting chance again (D&T is literally the only non-blue, non-combo deck in the top tier despite TNN).

[Barook]

I'd love to see him go and have more non-blue decks have a fighting chance again (D&T is literally the only non-blue, non-combo deck in the top tier despite TNN).
While I would really love to see TNN gone asap, I seriously doubt they're going to ban it anytime soon, simply as a business decision. The Commander 2013 boxes still sell and the TNN precon is the main reason. Plus, it would send a bad signal for future Commander deck sales.

D&T is the only deck in that category since it can use its flyers and shenanigans to realistically race TNN.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It was said that they were going to do something about the lopsided sales they have been noticing with the most current iteration of commander, though. It's not like they haven't made their sales on the grixis box, meanwhile the other 4 sit there. I know the Esper and bant get theirs to a point and will get decent sales either way but naya and the other wont. That may be regardless of TNN, though. They are pretty terrible.

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[Barook]

It was said that they were going to do something about the lopsided sales they have been noticing with the most current iteration of commander, though.
Future editions don't solve the current problem, though. And even then, they can always claim that it was another "mistake".

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I simply meant that they could ban TNN in legacy to stop the bleeding on lopsided sales of commander 2013. I wasn't eluding to a future commander set. They once claimed that tendrils was a mistake and while it had its own hay day, it's become an acceptable addition to the legacy metagame.

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[Arsenal]

I think they actually said the Storm mechanic was a mistake, not Tendrils of Agony (which just so happens to have the Storm mechanic on it). This is curious, as this admission of making the Storm mistake came years before Flusterstorm was printed. I like Flusterstorm a lot, don't get me wrong, but it just goes to show that Wizards makes up whatever reason/excuse that's convienient for them at the time, then proceeds on like nothing ever happened.

[skinnytalls]

I my opinion tnn should not be band. I like play with and against this card, and have lost to it, won with it, Ive killed it forced opponents to discard it and swept entire boards just to kill it. I enjoy playing this card because its very powerful and pretty fun. A great card in my deck as a two of. not powerful enough to have as a four of tho...
The fact of the matter is jund and dnt still are performing well and top 8ing big tournements. Jund has 6 top 8 appearances in the last four ssg opens
In the past two months tnn played in %22.7 of decks (http://www.mtgtop8.com/topcards), and the last 4 ssg opens top 8 (32 decks) 8 of then had the Nemesis so 1/4 top 8 decks and the average. so its not dominating the meta by any means.
tnn is a fun card for me at least. I would hate to see it go.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

They did "say" storm, but in my mind Tendrils is the main point of contention to the claim.

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[Lemnear]

They did "say" storm, but in my mind Tendrils is the main point of contention to the claim.

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I'm pretty sure it is Mind's Desire

[DragoFireheart]

I'm pretty sure it is Mind's Desire

That card is extremely stupid. It got banned BEFORE the set was released.

Mind's Desire

Make a Vintage deck but one where you can play four. Experience a major orgasm and drop dead.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't even allow minds desire to be a part of my magic vocabulary. Tendrils, at one point was a bannable card. Now, not so much.

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[Lord Seth]

I think they actually said the Storm mechanic was a mistake, not Tendrils of Agony (which just so happens to have the Storm mechanic on it). This is curious, as this admission of making the Storm mistake came years before Flusterstorm was printed. I like Flusterstorm a lot, don't get me wrong, but it just goes to show that Wizards makes up whatever reason/excuse that's convienient for them at the time, then proceeds on like nothing ever happened.
Unlike the other Storm cards, though, you can't really build a deck around Flusterstorm, and it's a purely reactive card. It doesn't really hit any of the checkmarks as to why Storm was considered a problem in the first place.

[Arsenal]

Jund has 6 top 8 appearances in the last four ssg opens

Now you're just making stuff up. The most recent 4 SCG Opens:

SCG Columbus (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12694) - ZERO Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Orlando (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653) - ONE Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Indy (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12597) - ZERO Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Las Vegas (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12428) - TWO Jund decks in the Top 16.

That's a total of THREE Jund decks in the Top 16 of the most recent 4 SCG Opens... combined. This is the 2nd time I've provided data on the death of Jund post-TNN, but people still refuse to accept the data as reality and live in some fantasy land where Jund still matters and is making all of these Top 8 finishes. Cool.

[Lemnear]

That card is extremely stupid. It got banned BEFORE the set was released.

Mind's Desire

Make a Vintage deck but one where you can play four. Experience a major orgasm and drop dead.

I agree. The day WotC makes the stupid decision to unban or unrestrict Mind's Desire, I'll break the respective format in a half within 2 weeks.

[HSCK]

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=301&meta=39

I think he was using this as the data point.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

How many Death and Taxes decks were there in those recent tournaments?

[Arsenal]

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=301&meta=39

I think he was using this as the data point.

Then he should stop using incorrect data? It's not my fault he didn't source properly. The SCG Invitational is not the same as a SCG Open (you know that, he may not though). Also, even if we weren't seperating the two, I only count five top 8s in SCG events, not the claimed six. So again, making stuff up.


How many Death and Taxes decks were there in those recent tournaments?

Three, just like Jund. Because why would you want to play Jund and D&T and lose to TNN when you can just play TNN and win? At least D&T still has great game versus combo like Sneak & Show, so it has that going for it I suppose. Jund just loses to combo and now loses to midrange decks (even though Jund is designed to beat them).

[skinnytalls]

Now you're just making stuff up. The most recent 4 SCG Opens:

SCG Columbus (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12694) - ZERO Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Orlando (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653) - ONE Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Indy (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12597) - ZERO Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Las Vegas (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12428) - TWO Jund decks in the Top 16.

That's a total of THREE Jund decks in the Top 16 of the most recent 4 SCG Opens... combined. This is the 2nd time I've provided data on the death of Jund post-TNN, but people still refuse to accept the data as reality and live in some fantasy land where Jund still matters and is making all of these Top 8 finishes. Cool.

srry three decks i saw was jund depths and junk depths in there. should of taken more time on that.... my bad

[HSCK]

Yeah, the Invi is diff. Prior to last week though, TNN was definitely ebbing, isn't that a sign things are the way they're supposed to be? UWR Delver only runs 2 a piece so in Orlando's top 8 there were 4, Indy had 6, Vegas had 2. People saw this, and left out whatever they were doing and it saw a resurgence in Columbus. That doesn't seem all that broken, which is really what you're aiming to ban.

[Lord Seth]

No one should be appealing to Invitational results anyway, because 50% of what decides those results are from the Standard format. This makes them quite useless for trying to get a gauge on the Legacy metagame... or the Standard metagame, for that matter.

[Dice_Box]

So we are back in the same old routine again. Joy. Lets see if I can do some summing up then.

The issues with TNN have never been it's individual power. Its a lighting bolt on a stick. Nothing fancy about that. It can Maze as well but that is not often done. No the problems arise when you add other cards into the mix. Its like a Mogwai until you add water. Then all the shit starts happening. On its own its kind of cute, add past mistakes and well...

The main push to see the card gone has always been over its design and rarely its power. This is legacy, we have seen worse cards powerwise before. But then you read the Unhinged style, bullshit ass text box on the card and you see its not a power issue, its the fact that the card itself is a joke. A total joke. And we all know it was made to sell boxes, not for EDH. No one in EDH cheered about a 3/1 with no abilities.

Then add the issues that have come from pushing non Blue decks out of the top tables. Maverick, Jund, DnT to a point too. They are all going away. It does not matter how many TNN end up in the top at the end of the day, it matters how many non Blue decks they bend over on the way there.

The real crime here is that if they really wanted me to buy that box, Force reprinted with the new MTGO art would have made me grab 4 too. They did not need to hand another powerhouse to blue to push sales. They can print money just fine many other ways. So stupid, so very very stupid.

Oh and one last thing, I own 4, they are in my fish deck. So me saying this has nothing to do about me not having the card. I honestly feel this way even though I have money to lose if it was banned.

[Feaor]

I don't TNN really ebbed so much as people switched to playing unfair so they don't have to slog through TNN battles. I think it was the SCG Indy Open where they asked the top 8 if they had adjusted their sideboard to fight TNN and basically everyone was either playing it or said that the deck they were playing didn't care about TNN. Its certainly not nearly as blatant as Mental Misstep and SotF but I think its a sign of format warping when a large percentage of the format is either playing TNN or electing to not deal with it and play unfair.

[Arsenal]

Then add the issues that have come from pushing non Blue decks out of the top tables. Maverick, Jund, DnT to a point too. They are all going away. It does not matter how many TNN end up in the top at the end of the day, it matters how many non Blue decks they bend over on the way there.

This is what I've been saying and using data to show how non-blue creature decks have essentially vanished post-TNN. But despite data proving my claims, people are making things up out of thin air to support their claims. Not much I can do about magical data.

[DragoFireheart]

This is what I've been saying and using data to show how non-blue creature decks have essentially vanished post-TNN. But despite data proving my claims, people are making things up out of thin air to support their claims. Not much I can do about magical data.

I'd buy TNN but I got burned on SotF last time. Waiting for Monday.

[Megadeus]

I'd buy TNN but I got burned on SotF last time. Waiting for Monday.

What were SotF at its height?

[Dice_Box]

This is what I've been saying and using data to show how non-blue creature decks have essentially vanished post-TNN. But despite data proving my claims, people are making things up out of thin air to support their claims. Not much I can do about magical data.

I understand mate. The post was not directed at you.

[Aggro_zombies]

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I anticipate SFM getting the axe before TNN. TNN was just printed in a product that lets them make cards specifically for Eternal formats, I doubt they'd want to ban it so soon.

Which is a pity in no small part because in the absence of TNN, SFM enables a bunch of interesting decks, from D&T to all the X-Blade variants. TNN enables frustration and a lack of interaction, which are no one's idea of a good time (except maybe whatever hardcore masochist at WotC thought TNN was a good idea).

[DragoFireheart]

What were SotF at its height?

40-60 or so. Ugh. Bunch of horse shit really.

[Megadeus]

40-60 or so. Ugh. Bunch of horse shit really.

Damn. Well maybe I'll pick up a set hoping for it to get unbanned

[Norm]

Mental Misstep did something similar to legacy in that a single card invalidated a bunch of archetypes. It didn't take long for decks like Storm, Elves, Goblins, etc to disappear completely as a result of that card being so dominant. I realize TNN is a completely different card but it's effects on the format are quite similar. If this card sticks around, the format will continue to degrade into a standard-like scene from a diversity standpoint.

TLDR: TNN is bad for legacy and I hope it vanishes so I don't feel forced to play it.

[Arsenal]

I don't understand what else people need to see in order to consider that a ban is warranted. There's a plethora of data from December 2013 through now that clearly shows non-blue creature decks that used to compete no longer do and have been replaced by some TNN-flavor or a deck that doesn't care about anything the opponent is doing at all. Even Storm players have stated that due to TNN and everything that comes with it (having extra SB slots for combo as TNN decks now CRUSH all other fair decks without even trying) they're also way down. So, TNN has directly pushed non-blue fair decks out while indirectly pushing Storm combo out too? Yeah, format has never been healthier! :rolleyes:

[DragoFireheart]

Even Storm players have stated that due to TNN and everything that comes with it (having extra SB slots for combo as TNN decks now CRUSH all other fair decks without even trying) they're also way down. So, TNN has directly pushed non-blue fair decks out while indirectly pushing Storm combo out too? Yeah, format has never been healthier! :rolleyes:

This is actually kinda funny considering it does absolutely nothing to Storm directly.

[Asthereal]

I don't understand what else people need to see in order to consider that a ban is warranted. There's a plethora of data from December 2013 through now that clearly shows non-blue creature decks that used to compete no longer do and have been replaced by some TNN-flavor or a deck that doesn't care about anything the opponent is doing at all. Even Storm players have stated that due to TNN and everything that comes with it (having extra SB slots for combo as TNN decks now CRUSH all other fair decks without even trying) they're also way down. So, TNN has directly pushed non-blue fair decks out while indirectly pushing Storm combo out too? Yeah, format has never been healthier! :rolleyes:
Please don't take this personally, but this is exactly what happened when Survival got banned.
One or two months of dominance, no one bothered to adapt or hate out the dominant card.
Card gets the axe.

In Europe, Survival was strong, but by no means problematic.
I feel the exact same way about True-Name Nemesis.
It's not that dominant, there's plenty of stuff that beats it, and plenty ways to hate it out.
Just tune your deck a tad, and go kill those TNNs!

(On a lighter note, I'm not perse against banning of TNN. I don't like the card at all. I just don't like the reasons mentioned here.)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think they actually said the Storm mechanic was a mistake, not Tendrils of Agony (which just so happens to have the Storm mechanic on it). This is curious, as this admission of making the Storm mistake came years before Flusterstorm was printed. I like Flusterstorm a lot, don't get me wrong, but it just goes to show that Wizards makes up whatever reason/excuse that's convienient for them at the time, then proceeds on like nothing ever happened.

Flusterstorm is not a problematic card, it doesn't kill anyone, and moreover, it attacks the Storm mechanic. As such, it's perfectly fine card and I'm also glad they made it. The greatest mistakes with "Storm" written on them were clearly Mind's Desire, then maybe Tendrils and maybe maybe Brain Freeze and maybe maybe maybe Empty the Warrens.
I like how Flusterstorm attacks Storm mechanic/decks from quite a different angle then counterspells, Stifle, Meddling Mage or Counterbalance (and other static stuff like CotV). Imho it's nice card and I'd love if they reprint it somewhere so that I may get a Chinese copy.

[Lemnear]

This is actually kinda funny considering it does absolutely nothing to Storm directly.

We had this discussion yesterday in some thread here: the fact that you don't really need to protect SFM+TNN, freed a shitload of SB space in this deck for a full set of Meddling Mages/Cannonist + Flusterstorms + REB's ... Not REALLY good news for storm :/

[Arsenal]

no one bothered to adapt or hate out the dominant card.

Maybe because players have realized that playing TNN + playing countermagic is better than not playing TNN + playing narrow, context-specific TNN answers?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

We had this discussion yesterday in some thread here: the fact that you don't really need to protect SFM+TNN, freed a shitload of SB space in this deck for a full set of Meddling Mages/Cannonist + Flusterstorms + REB's ... Not REALLY good news for storm :/
Thanks for info, I just wanted to cry about my ANT dissolution, now I see it wouldn't be pf any help to keep the deck.



Damn. Well maybe I'll pick up a set [of SoF] hoping for it to get unbanned
I thought about the same, but then again I realized I should rather sell more cards than buy a new ones...
*checks his MKM account on incoming crap for T 1.996*

[Dzra]

Please don't take this personally, but this is exactly what happened when Survival got banned.
One or two months of dominance, no one bothered to adapt or hate out the dominant card.
Card gets the axe.

Except Survival was widely considered to be a fun card, even for people on the other side of the table. Its problem was that it was extremely powerful and flexible aaand resilient, and despite me hating the ban, the format at the time honestly didn't have many good ways to battle the deck. I feel like there's a good case for it being unbanned in the current environment, but that's a different issue...


Making the protection-from-player a trigger instead of a static ability would've made all the difference. Still would've been highly played, but not nearly as uninteractive and board dominant as it currently is.

This. Nothing actually needs to be banned, if TNN were only errata'd to a triggered ability when it enters the battlefield then that would open up so many more points of interaction. The card would probably still be playable, but it wouldn't be the massive block of ice down everyone's panties that it is currently.

[Arsenal]

This. Nothing actually needs to be banned, if TNN were only errata'd to a triggered ability when it enters the battlefield then that would open up so many more points of interaction. The card would probably still be playable, but it wouldn't be the massive block of ice down everyone's panties that it is currently.

Yep, although I'm fairly certain that MaRo has gone on record stating that it won't happen because "that isn't how we want to use errata".

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Btw, from a personal point of view, I'd love if they unban Frantic Search. I'm sitting on a greatest pile of Frantic Searches ever imaginable by a mere human.

[Asthereal]

Maybe because players have realized that playing TNN + playing countermagic is better than not playing TNN + playing narrow, context-specific TNN answers?
No it isn't. Play Team America with awesome Golgari Charms on side!
Fucking amazing deck! Even a terrible player like myself rides that shit to the finals. :eek:

[Dzra]

Yep, although I'm fairly certain that MaRo has gone on record stating that it won't happen because "that isn't how we want to use errata".

I'd believe it, though given a choice of ban or errata, I'd hope they'd use errata... especially since I can't think of any legitimate reason why it wasn't just made a triggered ability in the first place.

[Lemnear]

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.

[Asthereal]

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.
+1 :laugh:

I just love how Lem improves my point almost every time.
You should be a pro debater!

[Arsenal]

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.

Are you talking about playing fringe sideboard material like Extirpate maindeck? If so, then I think your definition of "adapting" is different from the vast majority of players. If you mean that these players weren't playing these sideboard cards in their sideboard, then yeah, that's dumb.

[Dice_Box]

I am not sure that is the same situation as we have here tho. I mean what changes are open to Mav? What about Jund? Yea Jund can use -1 abilities, but I covered a few pages back why that don't mean shit right now.

Personally I am playing more Elves and Fish now than I have in a while. One has answers, the other speed. I would rather play Painter right now to be honest but painter is dead if TNN hits the table. (And painter is like the king of dudle in combo form...)

The card is flawed. Regardless of how it could have been printed to make it fair, it was not. So it's flaws shine though and everyone hates it. Honestly though, I am apathetic. I have no belief that it will go anywhere so I just deal. But if they pull this shit again I will just cash out because I would hate to be playing the game in 3 years if this is a sign of things to come.

[Feaor]

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I anticipate SFM getting the axe before TNN. TNN was just printed in a product that lets them make cards specifically for Eternal formats, I doubt they'd want to ban it so soon.

Wizards knows how people feel about TNN so I doubt SFM would get the axe over TNN just because TNN is in newer product. Maro made a post (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/72119362945/hi-mark-i-know-the-hype-has-died-down-a-bit-but-i-just) on his blog about this earlier this month. Plus people are pretty upset that a Legacy card has basically made it impossible to track down the Grixis deck, its even worse than Scavenging Ooze/Flusterstorm last time around.

[Dzra]

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.

That's fair, and really not a lot of time was given for the format to potentially adjust. I feel like the biggest point of contention is that cards like Pithing Needle, Disenchant, and Extirpate were great against the card Survival of the Fittest but extremely poor against the other 56 cards in their deck (which was basically Maverick).

Anyways, whether or not the previous format could have actually battled Survival is rather moot now because the current slew of hate fights not only the Survival itself but the entire GW shell that it was placed in (RIP, Terminus, Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, etc).

[Arsenal]

I mean, current Jund lists pack anywhere from 6-8 cards in the sideboard that are clearly for the TNN matchup. I suppose they could just start running those cards maindeck in order to "adapt" to the TNN-meta, but then they just lose even harder to other stuff? I don't think that's healthy if a Jund player has to seriously contemplate maindecking his narrow sideboard hate in order to "adapt".

[Barook]

I mean, current Jund lists pack anywhere from 6-8 cards in the sideboard that are clearly for the TNN matchup. I suppose they could just start running those cards maindeck in order to "adapt" to the TNN-meta, but then they just lose even harder to other stuff?
I'm actually quite suprised how fast TNN decks completely wrecked Jund on MODO. I was looking up if Jund was still doing reasonable well in the online meta, just to see it vanished into nothingness:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy/full

I don't play Jund, but it appears that TNN decks absolutely violate Jund, making the claims that Jund is an anti-TNN deck pretty funny.

The absence of Jund also explains why D&T is more popular than ever on MODO since it's one of the few decks that can fight off TNN decks while having a horrible match-up against Jund (and Elves, which are suprisingly absent as well).

Maverick isn't going to be seen anywhere anytime soon until it gets now toys which make it suck less in the current meta. It has way more problems than just TNN.

Interesting side fact: Imperial Painter seems to perform extremely well in that given meta. Too bad Recruiters are still horribly expensive in paper, even with the Judge promo.

[Dice_Box]

The thing with painter is that you have only proactive answers and not reactive ones. I should look at maybe Meekstone again and run etut in the side. Maybe I can build something that is custom to this situation.

I am not a fan of this Meta and I am thankful that since the GP has come and gone here, people are willing to convert back to pet decks. That brings to mind and interesting question. At your local store, how many people try and keep up with the trends and how many play pet decks? We may just find another "Gentlemen's agreement" if people just go back to pet decks.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.
I played those cards in Can Thresh, I had three Snares main, some number of Needles in sb (maybe three?) and at least two KGrips plus some gravehate (I'd guess three Crpyts or something liek that). But the problem was that...

...cards like Pithing Needle, Disenchant, and Extirpate were great against the card Survival of the Fittest but extremely poor against the other 56 cards in their deck (which was basically Maverick).

[Megadeus]

Our store is mixed. Half play sneak and Show, Stoneblade and whatever. Half brew random stuff. One week I might play against sneak abd show, Blade, and reanimator, the next I'll play vs Tezzeret Stax, Meekstone Stompy, and Reanimator Pox

[Asthereal]

Jund is abosultely fine against TNN.
Punishing Fire engine kills the other dudes.
Liliana kills the TNNs.
Discard handles stuff that would mess with Junds plan.
Bob and Sylvan draw more gas.
Decay kills equipment.
Charms from the side kill TNN.
REBs from the side counter TNN.

Seems like Batterskull is the real problem.

EDIT: Wait, you were having trouble with a GW version of Vengevinal???
I remember casting Ad Nauseam against those. And killing them.
We used to encounter UG versions that were quite annoying, but GW?
Come on, you can beat an improved Maverick! What are you guys playing? Highlander?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Our shop is similar, but it's a little bit divided:
There are players who own one or two decks (like I do) and they come with them on each Thursday and pit against each other.
Then there are players who have nothing but bad claptrap and these lend decks from a guy who has like sixteen decks (like I had) and those play with whatever bone he throws them.

Very funny.

[Barook]

Jund is abosultely fine against TNN.
Punishing Fire engine kills the other dudes.
Liliana kills the TNNs.
Discard handles stuff that would mess with Junds plan.
Bob and Sylvan draw more gas.
Decay kills equipment.
Charms from the side kill TNN.
REBs from the side counter TNN.

Seems like Batterskull is the real problem.
Batterskull isn't a new card and Jund could just thrive fine during its existence. The tournament data clearly indicate that Jund can't perform well anymore in a TNN meta, be it online or in Paper.

[2Rach]

SCG Columbus (342 players) - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12694

- 7 Blade Control/Deathblade/Patriot decks in the Top 16, 0 Jund decks.

SCG Orlando (239 players) - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653

- 2 Patriot & 2 TNN UR Delver decks in the Top 16, 1 Jund deck.

SCG Indy (256 players) - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12597

- 4 Patriot decks in the Top 16, 0 Jund decks.

90 Duals Open HK (193 players) - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12577

- 2 DeathBlade decks in the Top 8, 0 Jund decks.

So in the most recent 4 tourneys that have 129+ players (following Bob's methodology), there were 17 TNN decks in the Top8/Top16 to Jund's 1. Even if you don't think Patriot or TNN UR Delver are "TNN-decks" (I firmly believe that Patriot is the premier TNN deck), then the number becomes 8 TNN-decks to Jund's 1. If that isn't Jund dropping off the face of the map, I don't know what is.

In case people missed it...



Lol at 2Rach telling people to look at the most recent Top 16s... "good showing" by TNN decks? The most recent Top 16 (SCG Columbus) had SEVEN TNN decks. If 43.8% of the Top 16 is only a "good showing", I want to know what dominance is. 75%? 95%?
I have 3 main issues with your data. One is that these decks existed before TNN, so while they got an upgrade for some cards they're not fundamentally different. The second is that some blue decks that run them don't run the full four. The third is that some blue decks that could definitely use them to great effect choose not to use them altogether. If they're so good why not run the full four everytime?


We had this discussion yesterday in some thread here: the fact that you don't really need to protect SFM+TNN, freed a shitload of SB space in this deck for a full set of Meddling Mages/Cannonist + Flusterstorms + REB's ... Not REALLY good news for storm :/
Huh, what? This isn't true.

Here's a deck from before TNN (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-uwr-delver/). 2 MMs, 2 Canonists, 3 Blasts, no Flusterstorms.

Here's a deck from after TNN (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-delver-in-dc-gp-dc-1st/). 4 MMs, 3 Blasts, no Flusterstorms.

If other people are adding Flusterstorms or running more hatebears(since, you know, attacking from 1 angle-this case being counters, isn't the best thing to do) that's well within the realm of normalcy for SB change.

Not that it has been doing poorly. Multiple combo decks took top8 in the last couple of Opens.


Combo being a response to it is not a bad development. Combo is a good and accepted pillar of archetypes. It(non Show and Tell) was doing poorly to mediocre before TNN. Chalk that up to a benefit of TNN warping.

Jund being less played isn't necessarily a bad thing either. When a metagame changes some decks are lost(though Jund isn't lost, just less effective), that's part of the deal. Some are also gained, like Jund-Depths or an increase in combo decks.


Well they are TNN decks in the sense of they adopt 1 card (TNN) to replace other cards (confidant, souls, geist, tombstalker) to get better. They are not TNN decks in the sense of that their whole gameplan revolves around TNN. Anyway I think the point is that format diversity is hurt.
It's better than Geist for sure, but Souls still sees play as a 1-3-of in addition or replacement of TNN (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62701). Tombstalker (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62544) has not been replaced in all lists (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62695).


Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.
True unfortunately.

[Asthereal]

Batterskull isn't a new card and Jund could just thrive fine during its existence. The tournament data clearly indicate that Jund can't perform well anymore in a TNN meta, be it online or in Paper.
Statistics mess up reality, like I said earlier.
Oh no, latest results show Jund is bad against something. Let's stop playing it!
Or maybe we grow a set of brains and start testing. Adapting. Making sense, for a change.

[Shawon]

If we're start pointing our fingers at SFM/Equipment, I'd say Jitte is probably a wiser ban than SFM/Batterskull. Jitte is always good with or without SFM. No other Equipment have such a potential impact on the game if its carrier connects to the defending player just ONCE. I think we'd see more creativity among lists with SFM in them, like seeing more Swords of X&Y MD, or Manriki-Gusari in the SB to deal with those Swords.

[miguelmatix]

@Dzra
Countertop decks during the reign of Survival played Counterspell over Spell Snare and players resisted switching their countersuit. Rarely anyone in the SCG top 16 bothered playing Pithing Needle, extripates or enchantment removal, but rather called SotF broken and banworthy.

The format had enough ways to interact with SotF; parts of the playerbase just rather prefers whining than adjusting their deck.

So true...

There is always a public enemy: specialy if that card implies deep changes in decklists.

[Scott]

The thing with painter is that you have only proactive answers and not reactive ones. I should look at maybe Meekstone again and run etut in the side. Maybe I can build something that is custom to this situation.

Have you tried a build with Ensnaring Bridge in the main?

[Dice_Box]

Yes, but its not always easy to drop what is in your hand at a fast enough speed to stop a Jitte equipped creature from getting tokens. Once they do Painter is not likely to stay long. Still its worth running and I do. Thanks for the post.

[Arsenal]

I have 3 main issues with your data. One is that these decks existed before TNN, so while they got an upgrade for some cards they're not fundamentally different. The second is that some blue decks that run them don't run the full four. The third is that some blue decks that could definitely use them to great effect choose not to use them altogether. If they're so good why not run the full four everytime?

1.) Pre-TNN, you could only call Patriot a true meta player as Blade Control and Deathblade were way, way down. I went through this already in a different thread, but here's the data: (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27102-Would-you-like-to-see-True-Name-Nemesis-gone&p=772437&viewfull=1#post772437).

The fact that Blade decks existed as a Magic: The Gathering deck pre-TNN is irrelevant as they weren't nearly putting up the results they are post-TNN. If they were all top tier before TNN (which my data shows they weren't), you'd have a point there. But alas, they were not, so you do not.

2.) Ever notice that decks only run enough TNN as they do Equipment? Patriot runs 2 maindeck Equipments and 2 TNN. Blade Control is generally on 3 maindeck Equipments and 3 maindeck TNN. You don't need to run the full 4 because you're not going to be able to have 2 TNN both equipped with Jitte in play or 2 TNN w/ 2 Batterskull equipped to them. I can't believe I even had to point that out.

Also, there are many decks that do not run a full playset of a card, even though that card is a defining, pivotal piece. Jund runs 3 Bloodbraid, AnT runs 1 Ad Nauseam, etc. Your argument of "unless it runs 4, it isn't a TNN deck" makes no sense whatsoever as TNN is clearly the primary mechanism of all of these decks' success. Again, look at the tourney results for all of these decks pre-TNN and post-TNN, it's almost night and day.

3.) Every deck that can maximize TNN's potential is currently doing so. Every deck running blue and SFM is running TNN. As UR Burn and Team America has learned by now, TNN w/o Equipment sucks, but ONLY because it's very likely facing off against an opposing TNN w/ Equipment. If the best thing you can do is resolve TNN, then what better way to trump your opponent's TNN then to Equip your TNN with Jitte? Oh that's right, there is no better strategy which why people have been CRUSHING with the TNN-Equipment plan.

[Dice_Box]

The only deck that will run a full set almost all the time is Fish. That's because the deck has a very different game plan (swarm not equip) and it has no deck manipulation. All the others can fall back on the redundancy of Blue's deck manipulation and SFM to get the job done.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Not this shit again.

First, let me say Golgari Charm is bad as an answer to True-Name: it only works if he isn't pumped up, which if they get a chance to equip Batterskull to him, you're out of luck.

Having said that, I believe the anti-TNN crowd is severely unwilling to adapt. Citing the death of aggro is ridiculous as aggro hasn't been a major contender for awhile. Citing the death of non-blue decks is slightly less ridiculous, as while they are indeed on the decline, they're doing stupid crap (running Bolt for removal in addition to Punishing Fire+Grove of the Burnwillows in a TNN+SFM-heavy meta; using the aforementioned Golgari Charm as opposed to Pernicious Deed, Damnation, or Toxic Deluge).

Granted, this doesn't solve the consistency or versatility issue with non-blue midrange. But I believe it's time for something fresh: non-blue or splash-blue control. Nic Fit is perfectly positioned in this meta in my opinion, particularly those that can answer Stoneforge Mystic and/or Batterskull (TNN is easy to beat by itself for Nic Fit because it runs maindeck sweepers with potentially more in the sideboard).

Still, the more I think about it, maybe banning this wouldn't be that bad of an idea. It'd be nice if they printed the following as a replacement:

True-Name Watchwolf - 1GW
Creature - Wolf
Hexproof, Protection from Creatures.
3/3

Essentially the same except vulnerable to Pyroclasm, but in colors that could benefit from it.

[Lord Seth]

Not this shit again.

First, let me say Golgari Charm is bad as an answer to True-Name: it only works if he isn't pumped up, which if they get a chance to equip Batterskull to him, you're out of luck.

Having said that, I believe the anti-TNN crowd is severely unwilling to adapt. Citing the death of aggro is ridiculous as aggro hasn't been a major contender for awhile. Citing the death of non-blue decks is slightly less ridiculous, as while they are indeed on the decline, they're doing stupid crap (running Bolt for removal in addition to Punishing Fire+Grove of the Burnwillows in a TNN+SFM-heavy meta; using the aforementioned Golgari Charm as opposed to Pernicious Deed, Damnation, or Toxic Deluge).

Granted, this doesn't solve the consistency or versatility issue with non-blue midrange. But I believe it's time for something fresh: non-blue or splash-blue control. Nic Fit is perfectly positioned in this meta in my opinion, particularly those that can answer Stoneforge Mystic and/or Batterskull (TNN is easy to beat by itself for Nic Fit because it runs maindeck sweepers with potentially more in the sideboard).

Still, the more I think about it, maybe banning this wouldn't be that bad of an idea. It'd be nice if they printed the following as a replacement:

True-Name Watchwolf - 1GW
Creature - Wolf
Hexproof, Protection from Creatures.
3/3

Essentially the same except vulnerable to Pyroclasm, but in colors that could benefit from it.
You need two Pyroclasms to kill it, though.

[menace13]

there is no better strategy which why people have been CRUSHING with the TNN-Equipment plan. You'll hear that bullshit about how It's not a TNN deck a lot. And it's true. If That makes it any better that the "not a TNN deck" decks took an upgrade with TNN and slotted it in while continuing along their regular game plan unimpeded...

[Dzra]

I don't play Jund, but it appears that TNN decks absolutely violate Jund, making the claims that Jund is an anti-TNN deck pretty funny.

I'm not sure why this surprises anyone. When TNN was spoiled, my first thoughts were "oh this will be great against all of those GBx midranged decks that rely on Abrupt Decay and creatures to beat other fair decks." TNN doesn't make Jund a bad deck per say; GBx verses Stoneblade was always a close match. Attrition verses CA. Goyf verses SFM. Deathrite verses Snapcaster. Bloodbraid/Shardless verses Batterskull. True-Name Nemesis just pushes Stoneblade over the top.

This is really very similar to how Survival hate worked back in the day. Golgari Charm and Liliana are great against True-Name Nemesis... in a vacuum. It's just too bad that those cards are total trash against the rest of a deck that is packed full of x/2s, 4/4 recurring Germs, and a ton of soft permission. Before TNN, Jund and Shardless had one simple task against Delver decks: get enough mana to cast your superior spells. In addition to that, they now have to add in: find some way to kill this nearly unkillable monster before it gets equipped because then it really is going to be unkillable.


Wait, you were having trouble with a GW version of Vengevinal??? I remember casting Ad Nauseam against those. And killing them.

I'm sure that ANT or any combo deck would have preferred to see the non-FoW version, but against the majority of the field (including but not limited to all the other Survival decks) the GW version was much more resilient while still packing just as much explosive potential.

Again, I'm not saying ban anything, least of all SFM/equipment for crying out loud. I wish they'd errata TNN, but if they aren't willing to do that then I'm still not ready to see a banning yet.

[sdematt]

I think an errata for TNN to an ETB seems very interesting and full of much more interaction.

Imagine:

1) Stoneblade players wants to play TNN. Jamming it on Turn 3 into an open BGx player means it could get STP'd, Bolted, etc.

2) BGx player hates to see TNN around, and has to keep mana open to kill it in response. Otherwise, TNN is going to be the pain it is now.

3) Tempo decks running Stifle get to have an opportunity here as well.


There's more meaningful ways to try and next level your opponent. Do I cast my bomb or keep mana open to nuke TNN? Do I jam TNN against my Jund opponent hoping they don't have it?

The card will still end up being good because you're a blue deck playing counterspells, but there's a lot more leveling going on that I would definitely enjoy, very similar to the "Opponent plays Jace TMS against a deck that may have Bolt. Do I fateseal to protect or Brainstorm to profit?"

-Matt

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Wizards doesn't do power level errata anymore, people should stop suggesting that.

[Dzra]

I would look at it more as an errata for intent. Perhaps I'm being naive, but I don't believe TNN was intended to be as non-interactive as it is within a 2-player game. Progenitus is one thing. Invisible Stalker is another. In multiplayer TNN makes perfect sense and can even be considered flavorful. In 2-player games, a hexproof, unblockable, three powered, protection from all forms of damage creature for :1::u::u: strikes me like it must have simply been an oversight.

[Darkenslight]

Wizards doesn't do power level errata anymore, people should stop suggesting that.

Then I would argue that TNN is probably going to get banned some time in the next 6 months from Legacy, because decks that were merely middling have got a considerable boost from TNN's introduction, to a point of dominance, if not yet the point of dominance that VengeSur decks got to. Or Mirrodin-era Clamp decks.

[Lemnear]

Born of the Gods is complete and my only hope for a changing metagame is the B&R update on 3.Feb ... so sad


Edit: WotC found a way to make Money off the Legacy crowd with the Commander Set which has a gigantic print run. There is no chance that they'll ban the only selling argument of those set. I rather expect it becoming a Judge promo than being banned.

SFM and S&T may be the only cards on the watch-list atm, but I doubt any bannings are required. Earthcraft off the list ... that's all

[Barook]

SFM and S&T may be the only cards on the watch-list atm, but I doubt any bannings are required. Earthcraft off the list ... that's all
S&T doesn't put up the numbers to be ban-worthy.

While I can see Wizards being stupid enough to ban SFM, it doesn't address the problem why the format went haywire. Stoneforge was fine before TNN and by removing Nemesis, the format can go back to normal where your ground forces aren't dead in the water against a goddamn fish. One could draw parallels with SotF, but Survival had several ways to be broken and was repeatable, while SFM is a one-shot tutor.

[Dark Ritual]

S&T doesn't put up the numbers to be ban-worthy.

While I can see Wizards being stupid enough to ban SFM, it doesn't address the problem why the format went haywire. Stoneforge was fine before TNN and by removing Nemesis, the format can go back to normal where your ground forces aren't dead in the water against a goddamn fish. One could draw parallels with SotF, but Survival had several ways to be broken and was repeatable, while SFM is a one-shot tutor.

Tinker, demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, mystical tutor...all these one shot tutors. Are any fair? Not even remotely. SFM is innocuous but in terms of where it it powerlevel wise of cards printed in the last 10 years I can think of 2 cards that outclass it. Jace, the mind sculptor and skullclamp. The card is absolutely incredible at what it does and is one of the most played cards in legacy for a reason.

Mystical tutor didn't put up enough numbers to be banworthy and look what happened. Yes, it was bad for the metagame no doubt about it. But numbers wise no it wasn't there. The same can be said of show and tell. Doesn't put up numbers, but is it good to have in the metagame? No.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I guess that their excus is that SFM is a Demonic Tutor for just a limited number of targets and fail to realize that it's Demonic Tutor and Aether Vial and Felidar Sovereign. :rolleyes:

[miguelmatix]

If TNN costed green or white mana no one would call for a ban.. Anyway you guys are prob right: they wont touch it till the grixis deck stock is sold. Lol

Maybe they will free earthcraft. I just wish survival back ;(

[DragoFireheart]

I wish WotC would make up its mind. If WotC is not going to ban it then fine, I'll buy some. But, if they are, I'll wait for the price to drop. Not getting burned again like with SotF.

[barcode]

All I want is to unban Chrome Mox and/or Wild Nacatl in Modern. Legacy is fine right now.

[DragoFireheart]

All I want is to unban Chrome Mox and/or Wild Nacatl in Modern. Legacy is fine right now.


"Why do you want to play a watered down Legacy lite when you could play the real thing?"

[Mr Miagi]

TNN is toxic for the legacy. Period.

[Arsenal]

Jund is abosultely fine against TNN.
Punishing Fire engine kills the other dudes.
Liliana kills the TNNs.
Discard handles stuff that would mess with Junds plan.
Bob and Sylvan draw more gas.
Decay kills equipment.
Charms from the side kill TNN.
REBs from the side counter TNN.

Seems like Batterskull is the real problem.

You're singing the same old song that others were in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread, claiming that Jund will do well versus TNN because of it's potential answers. I then provided a fairly detailed analysis as to why your threat-answer theorycrafting hasn't translated to real world success and even provided data showing that Jund is essentially dead thanks to TNN. Yet you still claim that Jund is "absolutely fine". Wow.

Just to illustrate my point and to show how laughable your position is, here's data from thecouncil on Jund's death:

January 2013 - 2nd Place
February 2013 - 2nd Place
March 2013 - 4th Place
April 2013 - 3rd Place
May 2013 - 6th Place
June 2013 - 4th Place
July 2013 - 5th Place
August 2013 - 2nd Place
September 2013 - 8th Place
October 2013 - 6th Place

That's a 4th place average for the 10 months pre-TNN. Also, Blade decks were way, way down during that same time period. Jund was CRUSHING Blade style decks pre-TNN, Batterskull most certainly wasn't/isn't "the real problem".

November 2013 - 12th Place
December 2013 - 11th Place
January 2014 - 25th Place

That's a 16th place average for the 3 months post-TNN. Unsurprisingly, Blade decks are way, way up with Patriot and Deathblade running away with the #1 and #2 spots for January 2014, respectively. Yep, seems like Jund is doing "absolutely fine" against TNN. Thanks for playing :laugh:.


First, let me say Golgari Charm is bad as an answer to True-Name: it only works if he isn't pumped up, which if they get a chance to equip Batterskull to him, you're out of luck.

Having said that, I believe the anti-TNN crowd is severely unwilling to adapt. Citing the death of aggro is ridiculous as aggro hasn't been a major contender for awhile. Citing the death of non-blue decks is slightly less ridiculous, as while they are indeed on the decline, they're doing stupid crap (running Bolt for removal in addition to Punishing Fire+Grove of the Burnwillows in a TNN+SFM-heavy meta; using the aforementioned Golgari Charm as opposed to Pernicious Deed, Damnation, or Toxic Deluge).

I re-read the last few pages of this thread and nobody ever said anything about TNN killing pure aggro strategies. Care to quote who said that? Also, if you look at sideboards, people are running Pernicious Deed, Toxic Deluge, etc in an attempt to combat TNN. However, the general consensus on that (read the Jund thread since November) is that it's often going to harm your board just as much, if not more sometimes, than your TNN opponent. Jund gets there with creatures and reach (although not even reach if you're advocating Jund dropping Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire from the maindeck). So in your Jund build, you literally are a creature deck running maindeck Toxic Deluge, Deed and Damnation... lolwut?

If you Deed for 3, you definitely hit their TNN and maybe other stuff that didn't already die to Punishing Fire/Lightning Bolt/Ancient Grudge/etc, but you also just took out your own Sylvan Library, Deathrite Shaman and Goyf. Damnation? If you're okay with Wrathing away your own Bob and Goyf in order to get their TNN and Snapcaster (that has already Flashbacked for value), cool. If you have an empty board and they have stuff you can Damnation for value, awesome, but you weren't applying any pressure with your empty board, so they were winning regardless. The TNN player will have Brainstorm and higher card quality than Jund, so by Jund playing these one-shot 3-4cc Sorcery speed spells (hoping they resolve), you really just are playing into the control aspect that TNN decks are able to effectively assume.

I don't understand what your definition of "adapting" is. I sure hope you don't mean playing narrow, context-specific sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge and Toxic Deluge maindeck. That isn't "adapting", that's a card warping the format. Running maindeck Lightning Bolt is "stupid" according to you, but running a narrower sideboard card like Damnation (which obliterates your own gameplan in your theoretical all-creature, no-burn Jund build) in it's place is next-level "adapting"? Sure thing pal.

[BVB09]

I don't think it's anything to discuss with TNN. It's a card that I don't like, even as a Merfolk player
But the probabilities of it getting banned are 0, at least in this update. It's absolutely imposible that WotC would ban a card that they have just realeased in a suppemental product specifically for us.
We will have to "adapt" for at least 3 more months...
If WotC thought TNN was too powerfull/dominant (which I don't think it's the case) they would ban SFM, Batterskull or Jitte, only to weak it a bit.
But banning it? I'm sure that won't happen, at least until 3 months time it's not worth discussing.
They don't take us in consideration when looking at the B&R list anyway, I expect another boring announcement with no changes. Look at Time Spiral or Land Tax, they have been there for ages and they represent 1% of the metagame.

[DragoFireheart]

It's absolutely imposible that WotC would ban a card that they have just realeased in a suppemental product specifically for us.


WotC banned Mind's Desire before the set was released.

Nothing is impossible.

[BVB09]

WotC banned Mind's Desire before the set was released.

Nothing is impossible.

I know, but they probably didn't make the card for Legacy. And it was part of a complete set.
This scenario is much diferent; if there is an only reason to buy their product is TNN.
Also, looking for example at MaRo statements, they don't feel TNN has been so bad. I think their feeling about the card is diferent to ours.

[DragoFireheart]

I know, but they probably didn't make the card for Legacy.


It's absolutely imposible that WotC would ban a card that they have just realeased in a suppemental product specifically for us.


Ok, which is it? Did they make TNN for Legacy or not?

[Shawon]

I know, but they probably didn't make the card for Legacy. And it was part of a complete set.
This scenario is much diferent; if there is an only reason to buy their product is TNN.
Also, looking for example at MaRo statements, they don't feel TNN has been so bad. I think their feeling about the card is diferent to ours.

Another counterexample: WotC banned Stoneforge Mystic & Jace TMS a month before their exit from Standard, despite having recently reprinted Stoneforge Mystic as a 2-of in a preconstructed theme deck.

Sales might influence WotC to keep a card around for a little while longer, but sales will never preclude WotC from banning anything.

[Barsoom]

Also, looking for example at MaRo statements, they don't feel TNN has been so bad. I think their feeling about the card is diferent to ours.

Are you sure? (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/72119362945/hi-mark-i-know-the-hype-has-died-down-a-bit-but-i-just)

[Dihensoeur]

The Banlist (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy)

If you look the list, you will see few banned creatures. And banned creatures are banned for super-combo reasons. No creature has been banished for its aggro-power.

True-Name-Nemesis is only the 5th most played creature in the meta (source (http://www.mtgtop8.com/topcards?format=LE&meta=39)) with 22,7% (Deathrite Shaman (36,1%), Tarmogoyf (26,9%), Delver of secrets (26,9%) and SFM (24,4%) are before).

This is too weak for a ban for "too large presence" for TNN.

Tarmogoyf hasn't been banished (even if many people would it).
Grisel hasn't been banished (even if many people would it).
TNN will not be banished (even if many people want it).
SFM will not be banished.

We don't like TNN yes, but it seems that we have no choice to become brainless in legacy...Play TNNs VS TNNs and win without any reflections/strategies...
Maybe WotC doesn't care if noobs beat a pro players by playing TNN quicker than pro players...
Maybe WotC like to see the meta very blue...

Don't have hope in a TNN ban.

[BVB09]

Ok, which is it? Did they make TNN for Legacy or not?

I meant they didn't make Mind's Desire for Legacy.

[Nielsie]

I don't understand people defending TNN.

Be serious and honest: What would you rather play? The deck with narrow answers, no library manipulation to search for them and not enough room anymore for your own agressive threats (Jund) OR the deck with flexible answers, library manipulation to search for the best one, counter magic and a series of threats that need to be answered with very specific hate (blade/patriot decks)?

TNN may have answers but why would you try to defeat it when playing it yourself is so much easier? That is why everyone is starting to play blue, last SCG 14 out of the top16 decks were blue and most of them were playing some amount of TNN or simply did not care about the merfolk.

[Arsenal]

Notice that all of the "the format has never been healthier!" people haven't refuted any of my statistics and data that I've provided and they certainly haven't provided any data of their own to support their "Jund is absolutely fine against TNN" claims. Not surprised.

EDIT: HSCK actually did provide data... but the data he provided just re-affirmed my "Jund is dead post-TNN" position, so... thanks?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sure thing pal.
Why do you do this?



Junde, blah, blah, Jund, blah, blah, etc.
First of all, I'm not sure if Jund's demise is something I should cry about, the are dozens and dozens of outdated decks and now Jund is one of them, AND WHAT? What's bad about it's demise is how it happened, and that's TNN's guilt, for sure.
Speaking of Jund, why is this terminus technicus limited to BobGoyfHymnBoltDecay deck? I thought that the shards or guilds or w/e it is might be used in other context then established decks. Maybe by "adapting" one may mean "use the name for different deck"? Something like Jund Fit or Control Jund or w/e.

22 Jund lands
10 targeted removal (bolt, AD, Fire)
8 discard (TS, Iok, Duress, Hymn)
4 Deed (Deed)
2 mass removal (Damnation or Deluge)
4 PWs (Lili, maybe Garruk
4 wincons (Titans?)
6 utility slots (SDT, LftL, Genesis, EWit, ???

[Barook]

First of all, I'm not sure if Jund's demise is something I should cry about, the are dozens and dozens of outdated decks and now Jund is one of them, AND WHAT? What's bad about it's demise is how it happened, and that's TNN's guilt, for sure.
I think Jund is a good show case how a Tier 1 deck that can pack tons of answers to TNN still dies like a bitch to it.

People just don't like the trend of "Play blue, combo or GTFO" that TNN caused.

[Lemnear]

Is Jund the next Zoo? Is the "health" of a format now defined by how Jund performs? Did former "ban anything that's better than Nacatl!" Zoo player moved to Jund and we have now the same whining based on "ban anything better than BBE!"? I don't see why this should be the case.

I'm fine with storm, S&T, Tempo, NicFit/Loam/attrition decks, SFM, Miracles and others in a mix representing Legacy in T16's. A top 16 with basically 50% of a single supertype is however undesireable. Jund is nothing but part of the metagame ... Nothing outstanding.

TNN + SFM will be hated out more in the upcoming months.

[FTW]

Color Pie in 1996:
Black - best combo enablers, lots of creature removal and discard
Red - Best reach (burn and dragons)
Green - Most efficient creatures, best ramp
Blue - Best card drawing and stack interaction
White - Best damage prevention/life gain

Color Pie in 2014:
Blue - best card selection, best creatures, best stack interaction, best combo enablers
White - best removal, best anti-aggro, best enchant/artifact enablers, best hatebears
Black - best discard, best GY tricks, best planeswalkers
Green - best mana, best creature tutoring
Red - best burn

Hmm... UW is taking over more and more... surprised at meta result?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think Jund is a good show case how a Tier 1 deck that can pack tons of answers to TNN still dies like a bitch to it.

People just don't like the trend of "Play blue, combo or GTFO" that TNN caused.

I'm not sure I sent my message well... I mean, the trouble is not specifically in Jund's demise, as there are decks and decks and decks that became dead ever since 2004. Trouble is in what TNN have doen to meta. (if it is due to TNN, on which I don't want t o speculate, as I'm lazy to follow Arsenal's links to Top8s data.)
Hence, I'd wished to move the discussion to two points: what's TNN doing, and how should a potential "Next Level Jund" look like so that it might still compete and it has chance against both combo and TNN.

Again, I think that what I proposed might be reasonable:

22 Jund lands

3 Sensei's Div. Top

4 Innocent Blood
3 Bolts
3 ADs
2 Punishing Fire

3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Veteran Explorer

3 Pern. Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk

3 Liliana of TV
1 some Garruk


Shave to sixty. Is this a copycat of Nic Fit? Is it viable?



Is Jund the next Zoo? Is the "health" of a format now defined by how Jund performs?
This.

[Arsenal]

I think Jund is a good show case how a Tier 1 deck that can pack tons of answers to TNN still dies like a bitch to it.

People just don't like the trend of "Play blue, combo or GTFO" that TNN caused.

This, emphasis mine, although it should actually be "Play TNN, A+B combo, or GTFO". Everyone in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread said that TNN wouldn't be that big of a deal because Jund, a then tier 1 deck that had the ability to run a metric ton of direct TNN answers, was there to police TNN decks. After 3 months of TNN crushing everything, now it's "Welp, what's the big deal if Jund died to TNN anyway?"... cute.

Also, as the Storm players in this thread pointed out, it isn't even "play combo" anymore, it's "play a specific type of A+B combo like Sneak & Show" as Storm is way, way down due to TNN decks being able to now overload their SBs with Storm hate.

EDIT: Bed Decks Player, please don't comment on my meta data if you are "too lazy" to even read it. Also, Jund Nic Fit has been a thing for a long time now. Why don't you ask how those players have been treated by the meta?

[GoblinZ]

Is there any possibility survival of the fittest gets unbanned?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

EDIT: Bed Decks Player, please don't comment on my meta data if you are "too lazy" to even read it. Also, Jund Nic Fit has been a thing for a long time now. Why don't you ask how those players have been treated by the meta?

I was lazy to check them, coz I believed you got them correct. But seen that you're total asshole, I don't trust them anymore. So fuck off.
Any link to that Jund Fit deck thread?

[Arsenal]

I was lazy to check them, coz I believed you got them correct. But seen that you're total asshole, I don't trust them anymore. So fuck off.
Any link to that Jund Fit deck thread?

Mark this date of January 24th, 2014 as the day Bed Decks Player didn't trust my data. And called me a "total" asshole. I suppose that's better (worse?) than being a partial asshole? Guile shades activate: :cool:

Also, http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-DTB-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control). Jund, Scapeshift, etc. They're all lumped in there.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I re-read the last few pages of this thread and nobody ever said anything about TNN killing pure aggro strategies. Care to quote who said that? Also, if you look at sideboards, people are running Pernicious Deed, Toxic Deluge, etc in an attempt to combat TNN. However, the general consensus on that (read the Jund thread since November) is that it's often going to harm your board just as much, if not more sometimes, than your TNN opponent. Jund gets there with creatures and reach (although not even reach if you're advocating Jund dropping Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire from the maindeck). So in your Jund build, you literally are a creature deck running maindeck Toxic Deluge, Deed and Damnation... lolwut?

If you Deed for 3, you definitely hit their TNN and maybe other stuff that didn't already die to Punishing Fire/Lightning Bolt/Ancient Grudge/etc, but you also just took out your own Sylvan Library, Deathrite Shaman and Goyf. Damnation? If you're okay with Wrathing away your own Bob and Goyf in order to get their TNN and Snapcaster (that has already Flashbacked for value), cool. If you have an empty board and they have stuff you can Damnation for value, awesome, but you weren't applying any pressure with your empty board, so they were winning regardless. The TNN player will have Brainstorm and higher card quality than Jund, so by Jund playing these one-shot 3-4cc Sorcery speed spells (hoping they resolve), you really just are playing into the control aspect that TNN decks are able to effectively assume.

I don't understand what your definition of "adapting" is. I sure hope you don't mean playing narrow, context-specific sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge and Toxic Deluge maindeck. That isn't "adapting", that's a card warping the format. Running maindeck Lightning Bolt is "stupid" according to you, but running a narrower sideboard card like Damnation (which obliterates your own gameplan in your theoretical all-creature, no-burn Jund build) in it's place is next-level "adapting"? Sure thing pal.

1) When I say aggro, I mean both pure aggro and removal-based tempo. Granted, no one mentioned it in this thread, but if I recall correctly it was brought up in the "Would You Like to See Progenifish banned?" thread a few times.

2) Your point about how answers to TNN kill your own board is laughable, when I clearly stated in the next paragraph (one you didn't quote) that maybe due to non-blue midrange's inability to deal with TNN+SFM.dec, it's time for those non-blue midrange decks to evolve into non-blue/blue-splash control. I even suggested Nic Fit as a well-positioned deck for this format, and I will now suggest the various Stage-Depths control lists as viable contenders. I'm actually surprised Miracles and DnT haven't been doing better since they either have maindeck answers to either TNN or equipment (Terminus, Revoker), so I won't suggest them at the moment.

3) Again with the misquotes: I didn't say maindeck Lightning Bolt was stupid; I said it was stupid in conjunction with Punishing Fire in a TNN-heavy meta. I actually can't think of any relevant creatures that can only be killed by Bolt and not Abrupt Decay or Punishing Fire or even Maelstrom Pulse if that's what Jund midrange is willing to run. Also, all creature no burn build? Let me restate that Midrange can't do shit now, and its time for them to evolve into control decks. Drop the creatures that don't provide any utility, drop the reach that can't be recurred effectively, and start putting in more resilient threats and stronger control elements.

And before ya try to say the death of midrange is a bad thing, I'd just like to point out that midrange (and tempo) still exists as SFM+TNN.dec, thus effectively flipping the format on its head and allowing non-blue/blue-splash control to exist in conjunction with blue-heavy tempo/midrange.

[DragoFireheart]

Was Shardless BUG still a good choice to fight TNN decks? Or are all mid-range dying and/or turning more control heavy?

[barcode]

"Why do you want to play a watered down Legacy lite when you could play the real thing?"


It's because I'm poor and can only build 12 legacy decks, how can I compete. :(

[DragoFireheart]

It's because I'm poor and can only build 12 legacy decks, how can I compete. :(

Build Burn/Manaless Dredge/Affinity and win.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Was Shardless BUG still a good choice to fight TNN decks? Or are all mid-range dying and/or turning more control heavy?

In all honesty, I'm unfamiliar with Shardless BUG, but it seems to have the same problem as Jund midrange: that is, although it has amazing attrition value, it's still fairly creature-based with some spot removal main (correct me if I'm wrong), which is terrible in a TNN-heavy meta.

[Norm]

Anyone saying the legacy format is "healthy" is likely of the UW Stoneforge crowd that said the exact same thing when mental misstep was legal.

True-Name Nemesis should have required more than two players for it's ability to come into effect.

[Barook]

I'm actually surprised Miracles and DnT haven't been doing better since they either have maindeck answers to either TNN or equipment (Terminus, Revoker), so I won't suggest them at the moment.
Both Miracles and D&T are pretty well-positioned right now in the MODO meta (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy).

Now the interesting question is why this doesn't translate well into paper. High skill requirement + mental drain during a long tournament might be a reason.

[Mr. Froggy]

For the price of three Mox Opals, you can build Manaless Dredge.

[Arsenal]

Both Miracles and D&T are pretty well-positioned right now in the MODO meta (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy).

Now the interesting question is why this doesn't translate well into paper. High skill requirement + mental drain during a long tournament might be a reason.

I don't play MODO, only paper, but I do now that there are price difference factors between the two. Are the top-dollar cards in Miracles (Duals, Jace, etc) and D&T (Karakas) cheaper on MODO than in paper?

[Barook]

I don't play MODO, only paper, but I do now that there are price difference factors between the two. Are the top-dollar cards in Miracles (Duals, Jace, etc) and D&T (Karakas) cheaper on MODO than in paper?
Click on the deck. For every list, you get the option to view both online and Paper prices for said list.

I thought that price might be a factor - but consider that Patriout Delver is about as expensive as Miracles and the Blade decks are significantly more expensive in Paper. D&T is rather "cheap" compared to them.

[GoblinZ]

Was Shardless BUG still a good choice to fight TNN decks? Or are all mid-range dying and/or turning more control heavy?

Yeah, shardless bug is favorable in general against all the tnn or delver decks, it is still a good choice for current meta.

[GoblinZ]

In all honesty, I'm unfamiliar with Shardless BUG, but it seems to have the same problem as Jund midrange: that is, although it has amazing attrition value, it's still fairly creature-based with some spot removal main (correct me if I'm wrong), which is terrible in a TNN-heavy meta.

Liliana can take care of TNN, and they have millions of ways to deal with TNN post board (charm, plague, toxic deluge, etc).

[DragoFireheart]

Shardless also has counters for TNN and BS/Jace to find the hate cards.

[miguelmatix]

Is there any possibility survival of the fittest gets unbanned?

Fingers crossed

[Admiral_Arzar]

Liliana can take care of TNN, and they have millions of ways to deal with TNN post board (charm, plague, toxic deluge, etc).

This is literally the exact same argument that was made (and debunked) for Jund, which is being crushed by TNN decks. Shardless can run TNN itself if necessary though.

[Arsenal]

This is literally the exact same argument that was made (and debunked) for Jund, which is being crushed by TNN decks. Shardless can run TNN itself if necessary though.

The difference is Brainstorm. Shardless BUG runs it, Jund cannot. So Shardless BUG has a higher probability of having the specific, narrow answer needed whereas Jund just crosses it's fingers and hopes to topdeck. Also, having access to maindeck countermagic (Force of Will) is pretty big when it comes to these "jam my TNN?" matchups. Shardless BUG's Force + Brainstorm > anything in Jund, when talking about fighting TNN. Shardless BUG doesn't traditionally run TNN to the best of my knowledge, although I'm sure some silly players tried to cram him in that deck.

So... blue. As always.

[DragoFireheart]

The difference is Brainstorm. Shardless BUG runs it, Jund cannot. So Shardless BUG has a higher probability of having the specific, narrow answer needed whereas Jund just crosses it's fingers and hopes to topdeck. Also, having access to maindeck countermagic (Force of Will) is pretty big when it comes to these "jam my TNN?" matchups. Shardless BUG's Force + Brainstorm > anything in Jund, when talking about fighting TNN. Shardless BUG doesn't traditionally run TNN to the best of my knowledge, although I'm sure some silly players tried to cram him in that deck.

So... blue. As always.

How has Shardless been performing?

[GoblinZ]

This is literally the exact same argument that was made (and debunked) for Jund, which is being crushed by TNN decks. Shardless can run TNN itself if necessary though.

Jund is much less consistent and often loses to itself due to bad topdeck in mid and late game. Besides millions of answers to TNN from BUG control, TNN decks usually cannot beat BUG control's huge cards advantage.

[Arsenal]

How has Shardless been performing?

Shardless BUG did quite well in December 2013, finishing 5th out of 49 (although technically 6th once you correct the DeathBlade vs. Deathblade results mistake). This month though? Terrible, currently sitting at 27th out of 31. Don't know why...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Mark this date of January 24th, 2014 as the day Bed Decks Player didn't trust my data. And called me a "total" asshole. I suppose that's better (worse?) than being a partial asshole? Guile shades activate: :cool:

Also, http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-DTB-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control). Jund, Scapeshift, etc. They're all lumped in there.

What's so hard to understand, dude? I didn't check your data BY CLICKING EVERY LINK YOU SPAMMED AND COUNTING THE NUMBER OF JUND DECKS FOR EACH MONTH. I simply trusted that you got the numbers right and was done with it. Seen that you're at least a partial asshole, I'm taking anything you write with a spoon of salt.

Also, I hope that TNN stays in the meta. As long as Arsenal is so ridiculously butthurt about the fact that his petdeck Maverick is unplayable, I have more fun in Legacy than the last time I 6:0ed for Unlimited Tundra.
I guess I should make tens of fake emails and spam WotC HQ with TTN liebesbriefen.

Stop calling people assholes, asshole. Also, you keep saying 'seen' when you mean to say 'seeing'. Peace! -zilla

[DragoFireheart]

Shardless BUG did quite well in December 2013, finishing 5th out of 49 (although technically 6th once you correct the DeathBlade vs. Deathblade results mistake). This month though? Terrible, currently sitting at 27th out of 31. Don't know why...

I know why: easier to play TNN + SFM while keeping a good combo matchup ala sideboard.

[Arsenal]

1) When I say aggro, I mean both pure aggro and removal-based tempo. Granted, no one mentioned it in this thread, but if I recall correctly it was brought up in the "Would You Like to See Progenifish banned?" thread a few times.

Okay, we differ greatly on the definition of "aggro" in the context of Legacy.


2) Your point about how answers to TNN kill your own board is laughable, when I clearly stated in the next paragraph (one you didn't quote) that maybe due to non-blue midrange's inability to deal with TNN+SFM.dec, it's time for those non-blue midrange decks to evolve into non-blue/blue-splash control. I even suggested Nic Fit as a well-positioned deck for this format, and I will now suggest the various Stage-Depths control lists as viable contenders. I'm actually surprised Miracles and DnT haven't been doing better since they either have maindeck answers to either TNN or equipment (Terminus, Revoker), so I won't suggest them at the moment.

I like how your definition of "evolve" is actually just playing a completely different deck. BBE Jund is not the same as Jund Nic Fit; it's not "evolution" just because they share the same colors. They are running completely different cards, have completely different strategies, etc. That's like saying Merfolk should "evolve" by cutting all of their creatures and start running stuff like Merchant Scroll, High Tide, Time Spiral, Blue Sun's Zenith... you're just playing High Tide at that point, not Merfolk.


3) Again with the misquotes: I didn't say maindeck Lightning Bolt was stupid; I said it was stupid in conjunction with Punishing Fire in a TNN-heavy meta. I actually can't think of any relevant creatures that can only be killed by Bolt and not Abrupt Decay or Punishing Fire or even Maelstrom Pulse if that's what Jund midrange is willing to run. Also, all creature no burn build? Let me restate that Midrange can't do shit now, and its time for them to evolve into control decks. Drop the creatures that don't provide any utility, drop the reach that can't be recurred effectively, and start putting in more resilient threats and stronger control elements.

Once again, what you're advocating isn't a deck "evolving" or "adapting" to the meta, it's just flat out abandoning one deck and moving onto a completely different deck. That's fine, but I don't know why you're trying to claim that Jund just needs to "evolve" when really what you mean is "stop playing BBE Jund, play something else".


And before ya try to say the death of midrange is a bad thing, I'd just like to point out that midrange (and tempo) still exists as SFM+TNN.dec, thus effectively flipping the format on its head and allowing non-blue/blue-splash control to exist in conjunction with blue-heavy tempo/midrange.

The death of non-blue, non-TNN Midrange is a bad thing. Having nothing but various flavors of SFM-TNN (Delver = tempo flavor, Jace = control flavor) dominate while non-blue Midrange can't even sit at the big boy's table is just reducing format diversity. You pointing out that midrange and tempo exist, but in the form of SFM-TNN only, just proves my point. And the format hasn't been "flipped" to non-blue control and SFM-TNN, the format (if you looked at any of the data I presented 5 times in the last three pages) is "play SFM-TNN, play A+B combo, or GTFO".


What's so hard to understand, dude? I didn't check your data BY CLICKING EVERY LINK YOU SPAMMED AND COUNTING THE NUMBER OF JUND DECKS FOR EACH MONTH. I simply trusted that you got the numbers right and was done with it. Seen that you're at least a partial asshole, I'm taking anything you write with a spoon of salt.

Also, I hope that TNN stays in the meta. As long as Arsenal is so ridiculously butthurt about the fact that his petdeck Maverick is unplayable, I have more fun in Legacy than the last time I 6:0ed for Unlimited Tundra.
I guess I should make tens of fake emails and spam WotC HQ with TTN liebesbriefen.

I've been on UW Stoneblade since November 1st (GP Denver Esperblade before that) and I've been CRUSHING, so if TNN stays, I just win more. But I'm also smart enough to see that SFM-TNN dominating and pushing non-blue decks out of the meta isn't healthy for the format, which is why I want TNN banned. TNN has reduced format diversity by a great deal. How people think having SFM-TNN be the only competitive Midrange option for Legacy is just beyond me.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Okay, we differ greatly on the definition of "aggro" in the context of Legacy.



I like how your definition of "evolve" is actually just playing a completely different deck. BBE Jund is not the same as Jund Nic Fit; it's not "evolution" just because they share the same colors. They are running completely different cards, have completely different strategies, etc. That's like saying Merfolk should "evolve" by cutting all of their creatures and start running stuff like Merchant Scroll, High Tide, Time Spiral, Blue Sun's Zenith... you're just playing High Tide at that point, not Merfolk.



Once again, what you're advocating isn't a deck "evolving" or "adapting" to the meta, it's just flat out abandoning one deck and moving onto a completely different deck. That's fine, but I don't know why you're trying to claim that Jund just needs to "evolve" when really what you mean is "stop playing BBE Jund, play something else".



The death of non-blue, non-TNN Midrange is a bad thing. Having nothing but various flavors of SFM-TNN (Delver = tempo flavor, Jace = control flavor) dominate while non-blue Midrange can't even sit at the big boy's table is just reducing format diversity. You pointing out that midrange and tempo exist, but in the form of SFM-TNN only, just proves my point. And the format hasn't been "flipped" to non-blue control and SFM-TNN, the format (if you looked at any of the data I presented 5 times in the last three pages) is "play SFM-TNN, play A+B combo, or GTFO".

I take it you're probably the guy who'd play Maverick against a combo-infested meta: someone who thinks that just because a deck has done well in the past means that it should always perform well regardless of the meta. If various flavors of non-TNN midrange aren't holding up to snuff in the current meta, then don't play them and don't bitch about how TNN is warping the format because you won't adapt as a player and play a more suitable deck.

Your data also doesn't take into the account the number of each specific deck during the swiss rounds though. Who's to say that everyone just didn't jump onto the TNN-bandwagon and over-saturate the meta from R1 to Top 8?

[Arsenal]

I take it you're probably the guy who'd play Maverick against a combo-infested meta: someone who thinks that just because a deck has done well in the past means that it should always perform well regardless of the meta. If various flavors of non-TNN midrange aren't holding up to snuff in the current meta, then don't play them and don't bitch about how TNN is warping the format because you won't adapt as a player and play a more suitable deck.

Your data also doesn't take into the account the number of each specific deck during the swiss rounds though. Who's to say that everyone just didn't jump onto the TNN-bandwagon and over-saturate the meta from R1 to Top 8?

It's like you don't even read my posts. I've stated numerous times that I've been on UW Stoneblade (SCG Dallas list to be specific) since November 1st, 2013; yep, I'm definitely the guy still running Illusions-Donate because it was good in the past :rolleyes:. And you know what, people have been playing a more suitable deck for the meta... it's called SFM-TNN. Why? Because it's the best thing you can be doing in Legacy right now; you crush non-TNN decks, you are even with other SFM-TNN decks, you are favored against Storm combo and you are maginally unfavored against A+B combo.

Also, you were in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread when pretty much everyone (except HSCK) agreed that thecouncil's data was going to be the reference point used when citing data. This very website uses thecouncil's data for it's DTB/DTW distinction, but now all of a sudden, the data may not be valid because you don't know the exact number of SFM-TNN players that entered SCG Columbus? Really?

[Dzra]

Yeah, shardless bug is favorable in general against all the tnn or delver decks, it is still a good choice for current meta.

Not so much this.


although it has amazing attrition value, it's still fairly creature-based with some spot removal main (correct me if I'm wrong), which is terrible in a TNN-heavy meta.

Mostly this. Shardless is essentially just a Jund deck. You have a few more controlling and a few less aggressive elements, but the game plan of both decks is still the same. Trade removal with their creatures. Trade discard with their hand. Rely on ground pounders and Deathrite to close out the game. Granted, Shardless is much better off than Jund since it has Brainstorm and FoW, but even Jace is pretty flaccid against TNN.


Now the interesting question is why this doesn't translate well into paper. High skill requirement + mental drain during a long tournament might be a reason.

I speculate that this has something to do with it. I know for a fact that there are a lot of really great Miracles players out there, but taking such a reactive and mentally exhausting deck through 9 rounds of swiss is immensely taxing.

Another reason occurs to me also... Miracles goes to time a lot more than the average deck. The nature of the beast is simply that even after Miracles establishes control of a game, it can still take quite a few turns to set up a win. Skilled Miracles players compensate for this by playing very quickly. The problem is that many opponents are used to the luxury of being able to play at a moderate to slow pace and never have to worry about the clock. This causes more draws in paper matches. On MTGO however, there is no round clock per say; players have their own chess timers. Therefore, despite Billy taking an extra minute per draw step while trying to figure out how he gets around Counterbalance/Top lock, the MTGO Miracles player is still sitting pretty on his time left for the round.

[Arsenal]

On MTGO however, there is no round clock per say; players have their own chess timers. Therefore, despite Billy taking an extra minute per draw step while trying to figure out how he gets around Counterbalance/Top lock, the MTGO Miracles player is still sitting pretty on his time left for the round.

Although I understand that it'd be impractical for paper (too many priority passes, etc), I really wish that paper Magic could implement a chess-clock like MTGO has. It would be soooo much better.

[Barook]

I take it you're probably the guy who'd play Maverick against a combo-infested meta: someone who thinks that just because a deck has done well in the past means that it should always perform well regardless of the meta. If various flavors of non-TNN midrange aren't holding up to snuff in the current meta, then don't play them and don't bitch about how TNN is warping the format because you won't adapt as a player and play a more suitable deck.
Why are people always trying to drag Maverick into the TNN discussion? The deck has been pretty unviable for a while now because Shardless BUG, Jund, Miracles, Elves and other combo decks, among other things, shit all over it.


Who's to say that everyone just didn't jump onto the TNN-bandwagon and over-saturate the meta from R1 to Top 8?
If that was truely the case, wouldn't that warrant an ban asap, similiar to Flash?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Flash wasn't the players' fault, it was the DCI's for unbanning it. Honestly, I can't find drugs that good and I'm in Colorado. Also, I'm torn between what I want to happen with TNN. My birthday is Feb 3rd and I'm worried about it being banned and I'm worried about it not being banned. It's a real dilemma. I suppose either way it's a gift...

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Arsenal]

Flash wasn't the players' fault, it was the DCI's for unbanning it.

True-Name Nemesis wasn't the players' fault either, it was Wizards' for printing it/wording it as a static ability.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

It's like you don't even read my posts. I've stated numerous times that I've been on UW Stoneblade (SCG Dallas list to be specific) since November 1st, 2013; yep, I'm definitely the guy still running Illusions-Donate because it was good in the past :rolleyes:. And you know what, people have been playing a more suitable deck for the meta... it's called SFM-TNN. Why? Because it's the best thing you can be doing in Legacy right now; you crush non-TNN decks, you are even with other SFM-TNN decks, you are favored against Storm combo and you are maginally unfavored against A+B combo.

Also, you were in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread when pretty much everyone (except HSCK) agreed that thecouncil's data was going to be the reference point used when citing data. This very website uses thecouncil's data for it's DTB/DTW distinction, but now all of a sudden, the data may not be valid because you don't know the exact number of SFM-TNN players that entered SCG Columbus? Really?

Perhaps my point wasn't clear regarding the data.

Top 8s don't mean shit without knowing what percentage of players were running TNN, what percentage were running decks bad against TNN, and what percentage were running decks good against TNN during the swiss rounds.

For example if 200 people attended [insert recent SCG event here] and about 150 people were playing various TNN.decs, 25 others having a 60-40% matchup against TNN.decs, and 25 more having a 40%-60% matchup against TNN.decs, then I wouldn't be surprised if Top 8 or Top 16 were flooded with TNN.dec, because the swiss rounds were flooded with them.

Conversely, if TNN.dec only had 50 representatives and the other 2 75, then I'd be more concerned.

[Arsenal]

Perhaps my point wasn't clear regarding the data.

Top 8s don't mean shit without knowing what percentage of players were running TNN, what percentage were running decks bad against TNN, and what percentage were running decks good against TNN during the swiss rounds.

For example if 200 people attended [insert recent SCG event here] and about 150 people were playing various TNN.decs, 25 others having a 60-40% matchup against TNN.decs, and 25 more having a 40%-60% matchup against TNN.decs, then I wouldn't be surprised if Top 8 or Top 16 were flooded with TNN.dec, because the swiss rounds were flooded with them.

Conversely, if TNN.dec only had 50 representatives and the other 2 75, then I'd be more concerned.

Then we can't cite any data as there isn't a website that currently offers that level of detail you require. In fact, this very website should do away with the DTB/DTW sections as they pull from thecouncil's Top 8/16 finishes.

I find it curious that everyone was cool with using thecouncil's data (except HSCK) in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread when TNN was first released and the data didn't show it's true impact yet, but now that we're 3 months into TNN-world, and the data clearly shows it warping the format, now all of a sudden thecouncil's data isn't good enough?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Now, now, I never said it was. All I was trying to say is that the players seem to be getting some blame that is undeserved. I play esperblade and Esper death blade and I do so because I think it's the best strategy for me to win. I can't hate other players for feeling the same. Winning is essentially the reason for sanctioned play.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Dice_Box]

I am not going to blame a player for using all the tools open too them, I will on the other hand openly comment when I see stupidity in booster packs. I would think almost everyone else is the same.

[rxavage]

This thread should be renamed "Arsenal's crusade against TNN". I believe if he spent as much time and effort into beating his nemesis he would be successful.

[testing32]

This thread should be renamed "Arsenal's crusade against TNN". I believe if he spent as much time and effort into beating his nemesis he would be successful.

We will look back on this a few years from now and just laugh. Kind of like the people that wanted to ban goyf.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Then we can't cite any data as there isn't a website that currently offers that level of detail you require. In fact, this very website should do away with the DTB/DTW sections as they pull from thecouncil's Top 8/16 finishes.

You do realize they are called Decks to Beat, right? That is, if a deck does well enough in one tournament to have one or more Top 8s, then, more than likely, many others will pick up that deck for the next tournament, and thus simply copying the best list for that deck won't do you any good: you have to beat it with a deck better suited for that meta.

In all honesty, the data you presented from the council indeed shows a weak trend towards SFM+TNN.dec dominating the format, but I believe the data is inconclusive at the moment, simply because of a lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN+SFM.dec. If after a month or two this trend continues, despite players adapting to fight it, then yeah: it'd deserve a ban.

[DragoFireheart]

This thread should be renamed "Arsenal's crusade against TNN". I believe if he spent as much time and effort into beating his nemesis he would be successful.

Ironically all he has to do is play TNN himself. Not much effort required.

On one hand, the card is silly and I want to see it banned. On the other, it makes the BladeControl archtype significantly better, which gives me an erection.

EDIT: WoTC, hurry up and decide if you are going to ban it or not. I want my discount if you are going to ban it.

[Lemnear]

This thread should be renamed "Arsenal's crusade against TNN". I believe if he spent as much time and effort into beating his nemesis he would be successful.

What a nonsense. He said he runs SFM + TNN himself and is very active in the Stoneblade thread. That still does not mean he's not allowed to be annoyed of his own boardstates at times and the way some Blade-mirrors play out. It's possible to play a deck and say "this deck is too good for the format and that's unhealthy".

It's like you won't hear me claiming that Mind's Desire is a safe card to unban

[Dice_Box]

I think people have done much to adapt though. It's not like the card was spoiled and everyone did nothing. The price of Humility jumped, everyone spoke of Jund being the answer, others said just play faster than TNN and in the end it would all fix itself.

Well the outcome has been that to adapt, most people are leaning on either Race it or Join it as the path of choice. That is a valid form of adoption but it just kind of had to be since over all, there are very few valid answers to the card right now that are able to be used in decks that can be consistent over 10 or more rounds.

[Higgs]

We will look back on this a few years from now and just laugh. Kind of like the people that wanted to ban goyf.

I keep my sig to remind people to take a pause before making all-knowing claims :)

[DragoFireheart]

I keep my sig to remind people to take a pause before making all-knowing claims :)

I hope my other all-knowing claim is also false.

Sometimes being wrong is success.

[Zilla]

Ironically all he has to do is play TNN himself. Not much effort required.
Speaking of irony, he's said repeatedly that he plays SFM + TNN in his primary deck, so it's not like he doesn't know how to beat TNN. It is possible to put aside self interest and come to the conclusion that a card is bad for the format even while you're doing well with it.

[DragoFireheart]

Speaking of irony, he's said repeatedly that he plays SFM + TNN in his primary deck, so it's not like he doesn't know how to beat TNN. It is possible to put aside self interest and come to the conclusion that a card is bad for the format even while you're doing well with it.

This is also a valid conclusion. Isn't this fun!?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think people have done much to adapt though. It's not like the card was spoiled and everyone did nothing. The price of Humility jumped, everyone spoke of Jund being the answer, others said just play faster than TNN and in the end it would all fix itself.

Well the outcome has been that to adapt, most people are leaning on either Race it or Join it as the path of choice. That is a valid form of adoption but it just kind of had to be since over all, there are very few valid answers to the card right now that are able to be used in decks that can be consistent over 10 or more rounds.

That's the thing: all those adaptations were for the worse. As far as I know only Rector Fit runs Humility; Jund midrange is clearly not the answer it was billed as; and racing TNN is hard when it's got a Batterskull backing it up. Hence why I believe that all forms of control are in their prime in this TNN-heavy meta: they can attack TNN better than any other archetype except maybe combo.

[DragoFireheart]

That's the thing: all those adaptations were for the worse. As far as I know only Rector Fit runs Humility; Jund midrange is clearly not the answer it was billed as; and racing TNN is hard when it's got a Batterskull backing it up. Hence why I believe that all forms of control are in their prime in this TNN-heavy meta: they can attack TNN better than any other archetype except maybe combo.

I've heard that DnT can also handle TNN-decks (yes I did that). It has flyers and other shenanigans so it can handle it. Miracle is obvious as you said. Combo decks, not so much since the TNN are overloading on anti-combo deck sideboard material.

EDIT: I found something

http://m.memegen.com/6rplwv.jpg

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I've heard that DnT can also handle TNN-decks (yes I did that). It has flyers and other shenanigans so it can handle it. Miracle is obvious as you said. Combo decks, not so much since the TNN are overloading on anti-combo deck sideboard material.

EDIT: I found something

http://m.memegen.com/6rplwv.jpg

XD yeah. I can't say I like the card: the last thing we need is another Emrakul or Progenitus that can be reasonably hardcast and buffed. I just don't see it as banworthy at the moment.

[ESG]

In all honesty, the data you presented from the council indeed shows a weak trend towards SFM+TNN.dec dominating the format, but I believe the data is inconclusive at the moment, simply because of a lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN+SFM.dec. If after a month or two this trend continues, despite players adapting to fight it, then yeah: it'd deserve a ban.

It doesn't have anything to do with lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN. It's that the answers to TNN aren't great against the rest of Legacy. Thus, playing an "anti"-TNN deck isn't better than playing a TNN deck. The general path to victory is to either play TNN or play combo, which is pretty much what people figured out before GP Owen. Claiming that the data is inconclusive is ridiculous. About the closest we've come to seeing an "anti"-TNN deck rise up was Jund Depths, and obviously there aren't enough Tabernacles in existence for that deck to be Tier I even if it was good enough to be Tier I.

[rxavage]

XD yeah. I can't say I like the card: the last thing we need is another Emrakul or Progenitus that can be reasonably hardcast and buffed. I just don't see it as banworthy at the moment.

I agree. TNN is a pretty stupid card for many reasons but I don't think it is ban-worthy, there may come a time when it is but now is not the time imo.

[DragoFireheart]

It doesn't have anything to do with lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN. It's that the answers to TNN aren't great against the rest of Legacy. Thus, playing an "anti"-TNN deck isn't better than playing a TNN deck. The general path to victory is to either play TNN or play combo, which is pretty much what people figured out before GP Owen. Claiming that the data is inconclusive is ridiculous. About the closest we've come to seeing an "anti"-TNN deck rise up was Jund Depths, and obviously there aren't enough Tabernacles in existence for that deck to be Tier I even if it was good enough to be Tier I.

AKA, it's easier to just play TNN.

[Lemnear]

It doesn't have anything to do with lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN. It's that the answers to TNN aren't great against the rest of Legacy. Thus, playing an "anti"-TNN deck isn't better than playing a TNN deck. The general path to victory is to either play TNN or play combo, which is pretty much what people figured out before GP Owen. Claiming that the data is inconclusive is ridiculous. About the closest we've come to seeing an "anti"-TNN deck rise up was Jund Depths, and obviously there aren't enough Tabernacles in existence for that deck to be Tier I even if it was good enough to be Tier I.

What a nonsense. BUG Control, NicFit, 12-Post, Jund Dephts, Miracles and others work excellent against SFM + TNN and more You can't help people who prefer desperately trying to gain an edge in TNN-mirrors rather than playing Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed. *shrug*

[Barook]

I've heard that DnT can also handle TNN-decks (yes I did that). It has flyers and other shenanigans so it can handle it.
Yes, D&T can race TNN and has some cute interactions to slow down the inevitable "TNN + equipment = you're boned", but it's just not fun - at all. And playing flyers isn't the solution either since they can still annihilate you with a single TNN + equipment of choice.

[HSCK]

What part of D&T is fun for anyone anyway? It's goal is to mana deny you and win. What is the point of talking about fun with a prison bear deck? But TNN, yeah, that's really unfun?

[Zombie]

What part of D&T is fun for anyone anyway? It's goal is to mana deny you and win. What is the point of talking about fun with a prison bear deck? But TNN, yeah, that's really unfun?

Hoofing them in the face? :P

[TraxDaMax]

Emrakul, Griselbrand and the Gerry Thompson token don't care about TNN, why should you? :)

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[TraxDaMax]

Our yearly Belgian championship had only 3 copies of TNN in the top 8. I played 3 decks with them in them. And saw them everywhere but in the end it's still just a creature. Top8 refrerence: http://belgianlegacycup.wordpress.com/current-season/2013-12-22-main-event/
You'll notice most of these decks were prepared for TNN.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9195 met Tapatalk

[ESG]

What a nonsense. BUG Control, NicFit, 12-Post, Jund Dephts, Miracles and others work excellent against SFM + TNN and more You can't help people who prefer desperately trying to gain an edge in TNN-mirrors rather than playing Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed. *shrug*

Lemnear, I can agree with those except for Nic Fit. Now, let me explain why those decks aren't better represented. Miracles has the problem of needing to consistently finish rounds in time. An early draw or two can easily take someone out of contention. BUG Control is also pretty slow, but I like it better than Miracles in this regard. 12 Post and Jund Depths are reasonable meta decks, but they are constrained by key pieces that are expensive (Candelabra and Tabernacle). Tabernacle is sold out at $500 on SCG. You can get heavily played ones via eBay for around $350, but obviously people are more trepidatious of eBay in the wake of the counterfeits. A lot of people already had a Delver deck, so swapping out Geist for TNN and redoing the sideboard was cheap and easy, and they didn't have to learn a new deck. Very few people can just pick up a deck (Miracles, for example) and take down a tournament with it. The time spent becoming proficient with a new deck has to be taken into account.

Edit: TraxDaMax, thanks for those results. Innocent Blood is a very strong card for decks that aren't winning via creatures.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

People almost universally agree that True-Name Nemesis makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have True-Name Nemesis.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

A whopping $120.00. That's the extent of the logic there, I'm pretty sure.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[DragoFireheart]

People almost universally agree that True-Name Nemesis makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have True-Name Nemesis.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

Wait, is this a game where I fill in the blank? Ok, let me try:



People almost universally agree that True-Name Nemesis makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have True-Name Nemesis.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

Rogue creature type. They want to still be able to use TNN with Stinkdrinker Bandit and Cloak and Dagger

[Dzra]

Although I understand that it'd be impractical for paper (too many priority passes, etc), I really wish that paper Magic could implement a chess-clock like MTGO has. It would be soooo much better.

Yeah, I wish there was some feasible way to do this, but I'm coming up a bit short on ideas.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah, I wish there was some feasible way to do this, but I'm coming up a bit short on ideas.

???

http://d1lalstwiwz2br.cloudfront.net/images_users/tiny_mce/5xadrezmemoria7/phpGemZZ2.jpeg

[EpicLevelCommoner]

People almost universally agree that True-Name Nemesis makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have True-Name Nemesis.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

Because it's a creature. Granted, an amazing creature, but still just a creature that can be gotten rid of, albeit in less ways than a Bob, and provides no all-in-one/two engine for a win/draw (Hermit Druid wins, Worldgorger Dragon draws). In my opinion, Emrakul, Progenitus, Iona, and Griselbrand are much more oppressive than this guppy.

[Dzra]

???

http://d1lalstwiwz2br.cloudfront.net/images_users/tiny_mce/5xadrezmemoria7/phpGemZZ2.jpeg

Yeah, but who is going to go buy 500 of those? Wizards? SCG?

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah, but who is going to go buy 500 of those? Wizards? SCG?

It's not like they are strapped for cash. :cool:

[Barook]

In my opinion, Emrakul, Progenitus, Iona, and Griselbrand are much more oppressive than this guppy.
All of them need a second card to get into play. TNN is pretty good as a stand-alone card and becomes just plain dumb once equipment enters the equation.

[Gheizen64]

All of them need a second card to get into play. TNN is pretty good as a stand-alone card and becomes just plain dumb once equipment enters the equation.

It's ubiquity vs stupidity. TNN is stupid, and ubiquitous. SnT may be stupid, but it's not as ubiquitous because it require a dedicated deck. TNN need islands and that's it. I hope it goes die in a fire.

[Barook]

It's ubiquity vs stupidity. TNN is stupid, and ubiquitous. SnT may be stupid, but it's not as ubiquitous because it require a dedicated deck. TNN need islands and that's it. I hope it goes die in a fire.
Answers to S&T are also a bit broader than TNN which requires a very specific subset of cards to deal with it, of which most suck.

It basically comes down to something like this in fair decks:


Opponent T3: "S&T, Emrakul"
You: "Karakas, bounce/O-Ring, exiling Emrakul, etc."

vs.


Opponent T3: "TNN, naming you."
You: "Well, fuck you, too, buddy!"

[Dice_Box]

On the chess timer. It does not work as you would have to remember to hit it every time you pass priority. It just going to add yet more complexity over 10 or more games that will just get on people's nerves.

[Lord Seth]

???

http://d1lalstwiwz2br.cloudfront.net/images_users/tiny_mce/5xadrezmemoria7/phpGemZZ2.jpeg
The problem is the constant passing of priority. In Chess, the question of who has priority is very simple: It's the player whose turn it is. In Magic it's much more complicated and confusing as to who should have their timer and it will have to be pressed multiple times per turn.

[catmint]

What a nonsense. BUG Control, NicFit, 12-Post, Jund Dephts, Miracles and others work excellent against SFM + TNN and more You can't help people who prefer desperately trying to gain an edge in TNN-mirrors rather than playing Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed. *shrug*

Miracles - of course. It was still hurt by TNN in the sense that Sword of Fire and ice is in many decks and you have to kill every freaking squire immediately, but Miracles is the only "fair" Tier1 deck which has game vs. TNN decks without "raping" their MD/SB and losing edge versus other parts of the meta.

BG variants: Sure they have the tools to fight nemesis and equipments. However UW stoneblade variants were better decks than BG variants even before nemesis was printed. I think it is very hard to beat UWR and esper since although both of those decks abuse nemesis/SFM they play out quite different and it's not like they don't have good hate for BG decks. But even if you manage to get an edge over TNN decks you will just get fucked by other meta players so hard that you wonder why not just play TNN or "don't care TNN" yourself.

On NicFit, 12-Post, Jund Depths,...
I think you forgot lands, enchantress and other Tier1 decks which people should start playing because of TNN. Come on...

[Lemnear]

Miracles - of course. It was still hurt by TNN in the sense that Sword of Fire and ice is in many decks and you have to kill every freaking squire immediately, but Miracles is the only "fair" Tier1 deck which has game vs. TNN decks without "raping" their MD/SB and losing edge versus other parts of the meta.

BG variants: Sure they have the tools to fight nemesis and equipments. However UW stoneblade variants were better decks than BG variants even before nemesis was printed. I think it is very hard to beat UWR and esper since although both of those decks abuse nemesis/SFM they play out quite different and it's not like they don't have good hate for BG decks. But even if you manage to get an edge over TNN decks you will just get fucked by other meta players so hard that you wonder why not just play TNN or "don't care TNN" yourself.

On NicFit, 12-Post, Jund Depths,...
I think you forgot lands, enchantress and other Tier1 decks which people should start playing because of TNN. Come on...

BUG control variants in Europe play SB Counterbalance for the combo matchups as they are soft to combo in their MB as you mentioned.

Afaik NicFit IS current Tier 1 because of the numbers it puts up. Moreover I don't see a reason to not try other niche-decks to combat the SFM+TNN menace if those are favored against half the meta. I have no clue why exactly you dismiss the argument from that start.

[testing32]

It seems premature to talk about a ban when the meta hasn't even stopped shifting yet. A new deck won an SCG open a few weeks ago. No one has figure out which build of esper is best yet.

[Arsenal]

BUG control variants in Europe play SB Counterbalance for the combo matchups as they are soft to combo in their MB as you mentioned.

Afaik NicFit IS current Tier 1 because of the numbers it puts up. Moreover I don't see a reason to not try other niche-decks to combat the SFM+TNN menace if those are favored against half the meta. I have no clue why exactly you dismiss the argument from that start.

In the current TNN meta, NicFit certainly isn't tier 1, at least not according to thecouncil's rankings for Nov 2013 (#25), Dec 2013 (#12) and Jan 2014 (#18).

I get what you're saying though; there are current decks that exist that have fair-good matchups versus the SFM-TNN plan. However, those decks typically aren't well rounded enough to have a fighting chance versus any form of combo (even though Storm is way down, A+B combo is way up) and those decks still aren't consistent enough to make it through 8 rounds of Swiss. Miracles is the sole exception to this as it has good game versus combo and is the epitome of consistency... not sure why it isn't doing better.

[joretapo]

Miracle control is hard to play :
- it s a reactive deck so it is mandatory to know what to expect from the opponent
- it s a control deck so you need to be very well trained to not go to time / get draws
- it s a deck requiring a lot of decisions every turn, thus draining quite hard the pilot s energy(combined with game going longer)

All that means fewer players and even fewer successfull players.

[Arsenal]

Miracle control is hard to play :
- it s a reactive deck so it is mandatory to know what to expect from the opponent
- it s a control deck so you need to be very well trained to not go to time / get draws
- it s a deck requiring a lot of decisions every turn, thus draining quite hard the pilot s energy(combined with game going longer)

All that means fewer players and even fewer successfull players.

Oh I understand what playing Miracles entails, but my point was more about Miracles having good game against SFM-TNN and combo, which is essentially the format right now. Therefore, if it was such a well positioned deck, even with it's barriers, it should be seeing signifcantly more play and/or more results than it currently enjoys.
____________________________________________________________

To whoever said that the format hasn't had enough time and is still in flux, I call bs. TNN was released November 1st, 2013 and spoiled much earlier than that. We're a few days away from February 1st, 2014, which puts us a full 3 months with TNN in Legacy. 3 months is a fairly long time for a format that sees weekly large tourneys (SCG Opens, etc) and a card pool as large as Legacy's to not find a reasonable solution.

Also, in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread, many pro-TNN people were pointing to November and early December 2013 data to "prove" that TNN wasn't impacting the format. If November and early December 2013 data was acceptable then, why is late December 2013 and early January 2014 data unacceptable now?

[Barook]

Yet another Daily event with "great diversity" - 3 TNN decks and Imperial Painter (which doesn't give two shits about TNN and can be considered an A+B Combo deck).

Note that the MODO meta evolves faster than its paper counterpart with less budget restrictions. And here we are - in a meta full of TNN and Anti-TNN decks. You either play A+B Combo which can completely ignore it, a deck that can handle TNN decks without sucking against the rest of the meta (D&T, Shardless BUG, Miracles, among a few other things) or join them. Other combo decks like Storm and non-blue midrange decks are dead. It boogles my mind how people still can say that it doesn't warp the meta.

[Arsenal]

Painter just folds to Abrupt Decay, but Abrupt Decay is way, way down right now. Perhaps that's why it's coming back on MODO?

[Barook]

Painter just folds to Abrupt Decay, but Abrupt Decay is way, way down right now. Perhaps that's why it's coming back on MODO?
But doesn't Painter pray on decks that run Decay, like Shardless BUG?

[catmint]

BUG control variants in Europe play SB Counterbalance for the combo matchups as they are soft to combo in their MB as you mentioned.

Afaik NicFit IS current Tier 1 because of the numbers it puts up. Moreover I don't see a reason to not try other niche-decks to combat the SFM+TNN menace if those are favored against half the meta. I have no clue why exactly you dismiss the argument from that start.

When you say BUG control, do you mean Shardless BUG? All other BUG control variants had many other issues even before nemesis and I don't consider them a serious contender. Shardless has tools to fight nemesis, but they are narrow, often sideboard, more conditional/reactive compared to the TNN+equip plan. I think Esper vs. Shardless was an even fight before TNN and esper was improved significantly. In addition to that Shardless has a weaker Sneak attack, storm, Elves, Death and Taxes and random RDW matchup. So why exactly should I play BUG control again?

On niche decks. They are viable decks and if people love them, dedicate a lot of time mastering them they can make Top8 any given day. However they are niche decks for a reason. Tier decks just have an overall better win% over the meta. So unless a niche deck suddenly becomes a tierdeck which is very rare (happened with DnT though) it is not a solution for the meta problems. Actually if it would be the case that fringe decks become tier decks and other tier decks get worse the format would change but still be healthy and diverse. But what is happening instead is that the number of Tierdecks is reduced since TNN/equipment becomes the most powerful/consistent fair strategy.

@Arsenal, I think the format did not yet have enough time - but in the negative way. I think many TNN/equipment decks will be better tuned and other decks will be pushed out more.

[Arsenal]

But doesn't Painter pray on decks that run Decay, like Shardless BUG?

I was more referring to Jund. Imperial Painter's Moon effects do little against Jund when they're running basics, Deathrite Shaman (big one here), and Abrupt Decay. Also, Imperial Painter's win condition just folds to a single Abrupt Decay.

But yes, Imperial Painter resolving Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon versus an all nonbasic land deck like Shardless BUG is ggpo, but so would Dragon Stompy doing that versus Shardless BUG.

[kiblast]

I was more referring to Jund. Imperial Painter's Moon effects do little against Jund when they're running basics, Deathrite Shaman (big one here), and Abrupt Decay. Also, Imperial Painter's win condition just folds to a single Abrupt Decay.

But yes, Imperial Painter resolving Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon versus an all nonbasic land deck like Shardless BUG is ggpo, but so would Dragon Stompy doing that versus Shardless BUG.

I'm not experienced with Painter decks, but I thought they ran some main deck Goblin Welders to address Grips and Decays?

[Dice_Box]

These days we run 2 at most. This means that while you can use Welder to save you, we do not fetch it a lot and mostly draw into then.

[DragoFireheart]

Can Hypergenesis save the meta!?

[Barook]

Gotta love how games against the same deck can turn out:

G2: A long, great game with tons of interaction. Not a single TNN was involved.
G3: He plays double TNN. I die with a hand choke full of options which won't save me from that. No fun allowed.

At least I only played against 2 TNN decks this time, with the other decks being D&T mirror and some weird UB Omnitell deck.

Games involvingTNN aren't true magic games, they're a bland, rage-inducing parody. Hell, a board with Griselbrand, Omniscience AND JMS (while mulliganing to 4) was more beatable than this PoS.


Can Hypergenesis save the meta!?
I fail to see how it's going to resolve in a meta choke-full of blue decks. Plus, it's pretty inconsistent.

[mishima_kazuya]

Add me to list of people that hope TNN gets the ban hammer.

[Dice_Box]

Even if TNN goes, it will not be while the card is still selling boxes. As much as I dislike the card too, you should not kill it 3 months into its life.

Give it another 6 months and we will see it either go or become a permanent staple.

[Barook]

Even if TNN goes, it will not be while the card is still selling boxes. As much as I dislike the card too, you should not kill it 3 months into its life.
While your argument is sound, don't forget that Mental Missstep also remained 4 months in the format.

[DragoFireheart]

I fail to see how it's going to resolve in a meta choke-full of blue decks. Plus, it's pretty inconsistent.

That's the joke.

[Wilkin]

Yet another Daily event with "great diversity" - 3 TNN decks and Imperial Painter (which doesn't give two shits about TNN and can be considered an A+B Combo deck).

Note that the MODO meta evolves faster than its paper counterpart with less budget restrictions. And here we are - in a meta full of TNN and Anti-TNN decks. You either play A+B Combo which can completely ignore it, a deck that can handle TNN decks without sucking against the rest of the meta (D&T, Shardless BUG, Miracles, among a few other things) or join them. Other combo decks like Storm and non-blue midrange decks are dead. It boogles my mind how people still can say that it doesn't warp the meta.

I sort of agree here. Played a 31 person tournament. Top 8 was mostly Delver variants. The non-Delver were D&T and Deadguy (me).

But yeah I agree that the meta now is TNN decks, Other Delver variants (some didn't play TNN) and decks that can go against them. Because there is so much Delver type decks out there, a lot of combo decks are pushed out. Lol, actually come to think of it Delver of Secrets is way more format warping than True Name Nemesis. But I am annoyed with TNN. Poor design, no interaction. Watching Mirror True-names are boring......seriously watching 2 Griselbrands go at it is more fun.

I'm probably not raging as some other players because of the removal options I play. I don't think you can ban it though, but I wouldn't be upset if it was. I believe someone asked Maro if they could errata TNN and he said that they aren't going to do that. I'm still really annoyed at his answer to deal with TNN, "other players". We don't have that option. thanks.

[Barook]

From Maro's blog:


theverdantchef asked: When you guys announce the banned/restricted cards, who exactly is responsible for these decisions on what gets banned and not. Development?

Development, lead by Erik Lauer, is responsible.

At least we know now who's to blame.

[BVB09]

Do we know the exact date for the announcement?
Thanks

[death]

They may announce it tomorrow 1/27/14, Monday, week of BNG prerelease.

[nedleeds]

People almost universally agree that Griselbrand makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have Griselbrand.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...


People almost universally agree that Delver makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have Delver.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

[DragoFireheart]

I can interact with those cards?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

You can interact with tnn

You can misdirect spells to it

[DragoFireheart]

You can interact with tnn

You can misdirect spells to it

:laugh:

Time to grab my playset of Misdirection before they triple in price.

[TsumiBand]

You can interact with tnn

You can misdirect spells to it

....I'm trying to imagine a board state where the TNN player cares enough about your threats to play a removal spell that you could Misdirection to the Nemesis.
Even so, I think this stretches the definition of what's meant by interactivity. Also, this is a line of play that IMHO if it were playable would have been much more prevalent already. Wouldn't we have been Misdirection-ing all manner of StP/Bolt/etc back at, like, Geist of St Traft or for that matter, any other random threat? Misdirection stopped being a card years ago for a reason.
Also, insert requisite "ugggh best answer to Blue cards is Blue cards" whining.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[TheArchitect]

Dont get me wrong, I think TNN was a mistake and bad design, but the card shouldnt be banned.

Look at show and tell or ad nauseum. Can you cast swords to playshares on those cards? Nope. Jace bounce them? Nope. Pyroclasm? Nope. Do you usually, lose if they resolve? Yup. So how come those cards are dominating the format and demanding bans, how are we stopping those decks from winning? Either preventing them being cast (discard, meddling mage, wasteland, blood moon, etc), countering them as they are cast, or playing very narrow hate cards that stop that specific card from being effective (Humility, aethersworn cannonist, etc). The same exact thing can be said about TNN. You can't just jam a bunch of creature removal in your deck and expect to be able to interact with every deck you see.

TL;DR/Summery: Seriously, playing against cards that can't be interacted with by traditional removal is not anything new to legacy. You have treat TNN more like a combo piece if you want to interact with him: prevent him from being cast, counter him, or play hate cards.


EDIT: Also, there's tons of stuff besides misdirection that interacts with TNN. Every edict effect or non-damage based sweeper ever, skullcrack, Flamebreak, Moat, or humility just to name a few.

[GoboLord]

EDIT: Also, there's tons of stuff besides misdirection that interacts with TNN. Every edict effect or non-damage based sweeper ever, Flamebreak, Moat, or humility just to name a few.

The fact that there are many cards that can deal with TNN does not mean that people are willing to play them (for some reason or the other). And that's what the discussion is really about. TNN is not un-fair, it's un-comfortable.

//EDIT: Misread Skullcrack.

[JanoschEausH]

Flamebreak doesn't work. Since it's a damage based sweeper under your control.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Infest and Deluge both do well. The problem for a lot of this stuff is the exact moment when I equip SoFI. That pretty much does it. Now only Deluge works, and I have a 3 turn clock.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Erdvermampfa]

Infest and Deluge both do well. The problem for a lot of this stuff is the exact moment when I equip SoFI. That pretty much does it. Now only Deluge works, and I have a 3 turn clock.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Deluge sucks in my opinion. As exciting as it may appear (easy color requirements/hits almost everything/CC3 for CB) it can get very risky against aggro. You have to make sure that they won't recover from the board wipe which is quite hard considering most aggro strategies are fairly redundant in legacy. Furthermore, getting it countered against RUG has to be one of the most frustrating plays right now.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Who is playing aggro? It's pretty solid vs gobbos and elves to my knowledge. Sucks vs merfolk but otherwise, I don't see the problem.

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[Finn]

Dont get me wrong, I think TNN was a mistake and bad design, but the card shouldnt be banned.

Look at show and tell or ad nauseum. Can you cast swords to playshares on those cards? Nope. Jace bounce them? Nope. Pyroclasm? Nope. Do you usually, lose if they resolve? Yup. So how come those cards are dominating the format and demanding bans, how are we stopping those decks from winning? Either preventing them being cast (discard, meddling mage, wasteland, blood moon, etc), countering them as they are cast, or playing very narrow hate cards that stop that specific card from being effective (Humility, aethersworn cannonist, etc). The same exact thing can be said about TNN. You can't just jam a bunch of creature removal in your deck and expect to be able to interact with every deck you see.

TL;DR/Summery: Seriously, playing against cards that can't be interacted with by traditional removal is not anything new to legacy. You have treat TNN more like a combo piece if you want to interact with him: prevent him from being cast, counter him, or play hate cards.


EDIT: Also, there's tons of stuff besides misdirection that interacts with TNN. Every edict effect or non-damage based sweeper ever, skullcrack, Flamebreak, Moat, or humility just to name a few.
It does not work like that. You can not simply include narrow hate cards and expect to be successful against TNN. Apart from the fact that most colors do not have any reliable maindeckable answers of any kind anyway, you can not simply approach TNN like a combo card. Combo decks have choke points that can be exploited. TNN decks (any of them) do not. Look around. Are players of top finishing decks really making poor choices with regards to TNN or is it just a shitty card to have to account for? Is the card actually simple to handle, and we are all fucktards? Or is it more nuanced in a format with dozens of top performing decks? Can you just include narrow hate or will your Red Elemental Blasts sit in your hand while a Batterskull kicks your ass? TNN is not unbeatable. But it is a plague on fun and the weak-ass medicine for it tastes like shit.

[Lord Seth]

Dont get me wrong, I think TNN was a mistake and bad design, but the card shouldnt be banned.

Look at show and tell or ad nauseum. Can you cast swords to playshares on those cards? Nope. Jace bounce them? Nope. Pyroclasm? Nope. Do you usually, lose if they resolve? Yup. So how come those cards are dominating the format and demanding bans, how are we stopping those decks from winning?
For starters, because Show and Tell and Ad Nauseam require you structure your entire deck around them, whereas True-Name Nemesis can just be plopped right into your deck without requiring you to really change anything.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That's why they are called combo engines. You build around them because they are the engine that fuels their own win stratagem. Also, neither card you compared it to is even a creature.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[kiblast]

Well, technically turn 2 SFM, turn 3 Nemesis, turn 4 Equip and Swing is nowhere near the power level of any combo deck in the format. Blade decks and Combo are separate entities and comparisons don't work. It's a strong gameplay, maybe the strongest available right now for aggro control strategies, but nowhere near Show and Tell or Ad Nauseam or Pif/IGG loops. That stuff kills on the spot.

Also, without an equip is a 7 turns clock. And your SFM needs to survive a whole turn unmolested. Or, you cast your equip and equip it, in a world of Decays and Ancient Grudges and Wear/Tears in people's sb. Just adapt for fuck sake. Its a 3/1. You have plenty of possibilities in most splash colors. Or you can just go off playing Elves or Snt or Ant, or you can overrun it on your 4th or 5th turn if you are on Goblins.You can try to use Wastelands and Ports while building a board presence of flyers and avoid it resolving-in case you are on Dnt. You can play 4 Lilianas if you are on BG Pox or Jund or Loam decks. You might want to play Deed, which is ridiculously good right now. You can play Merfolk and laugh at everybody's blue based decks. Play Enchantress or 12 Post or High Tide. Play Terminus, play Supreme Verdicts. Play fucking Smallpox (another incredibly underrated card). You have Deluge, Golgari Charm (god knows why nobody is playing it main deck). Learn to play Threshold properly. OK, it's an awful design and a bitch to deal with, but saying so for the 1500th time on a forum online is not gonna change the fact that it exists, must be dealt with and most probably is not going to be banned anytime soon; and you have plenty of options to just ignore it or deal with it.

Edit:It was more fun back when you wanted to ban Brainstorm, no doubt, now its just lame whining.

[apple713]

From Maro's blog:

theverdantchef asked: When you guys announce the banned/restricted cards, who exactly is responsible for these decisions on what gets banned and not. Development?

Development, lead by Erik Lauer, is responsible.

At least we know now who's to blame.

isn't it strange that the people in development that create these UNTESTED cards are also "responsible" for banning them....

[TheArchitect]

Flamebreak doesn't work. Since it's a damage based sweeper under your control.

My bad, that one has "can't be regenerated". I was remembering it saying "damage cant be prevented".



For starters, because Show and Tell and Ad Nauseam require you structure your entire deck around them, whereas True-Name Nemesis can just be plopped right into your deck without requiring you to really change anything.

Oh right, that's why elves, Jund and miracles are all running 4 of this card so powerful that its is banworthy. Right?



It does not work like that. You can not simply include narrow hate cards and expect to be successful against TNN. Apart from the fact that most colors do not have any reliable maindeckable answers of any kind anyway, you can not simply approach TNN like a combo card. Combo decks have choke points that can be exploited. TNN decks (any of them) do not. Look around. Are players of top finishing decks really making poor choices with regards to TNN or is it just a shitty card to have to account for? Is the card actually simple to handle, and we are all fucktards? Or is it more nuanced in a format with dozens of top performing decks? Can you just include narrow hate or will your Red Elemental Blasts sit in your hand while a Batterskull kicks your ass? TNN is not unbeatable. But it is a plague on fun and the weak-ass medicine for it tastes like shit.

I'm not saying that you should treat TNN decks like a combo matchup, but that similar strategies can be used to deal with TNN if you deck is having trouble with it. If you cant stifle and waste them off 1UU, make them discard or counter TNN, then cards that interact with TNN is the medicine you need. I also disagree that the medicine is weak or tastes like shit. The medicine, deed, diabilic edict, golgari charm, zealous persecution, liliana, moat, terminus, verdict, etc are all very powerful cards and not super narrow. Alot of those mentioned are things that are (or could be) maindeck 4 ofs they are that good.

And again, I dont disagree that card is lousy design or boring to play with, but it not anything legacy can't deal with. People just need to stop whining and adapt.

[btm10]

I'm not saying that you should treat TNN decks like a combo matchup, but that similar strategies can be used to deal with TNN if you deck is having trouble with it. If you cant stifle and waste them off 1UU, make them discard or counter TNN, then cards that interact with TNN is the medicine you need. I also disagree that the medicine is weak or tastes like shit. The medicine, deed, diabilic edict, golgari charm, zealous persecution, liliana, moat, terminus, verdict, etc are all very powerful cards and not super narrow. Alot of those mentioned are things that are (or could be) maindeck 4 ofs they are that good.

And again, I dont disagree that card is lousy design or boring to play with, but it not anything legacy can't deal with. People just need to stop whining and adapt.


Well, technically turn 2 SFM, turn 3 Nemesis, turn 4 Equip and Swing is nowhere near the power level of any combo deck in the format. Blade decks and Combo are separate entities and comparisons don't work. It's a strong gameplay, maybe the strongest available right now for aggro control strategies, but nowhere near Show and Tell or Ad Nauseam or Pif/IGG loops. That stuff kills on the spot.

Also, without an equip is a 7 turns clock. And your SFM needs to survive a whole turn unmolested. Or, you cast your equip and equip it, in a world of Decays and Ancient Grudges and Wear/Tears in people's sb. Just adapt for fuck sake. Its a 3/1. You have plenty of possibilities in most splash colors. Or you can just go off playing Elves or Snt or Ant, or you can overrun it on your 4th or 5th turn if you are on Goblins.You can try to use Wastelands and Ports while building a board presence of flyers and avoid it resolving-in case you are on Dnt. You can play 4 Lilianas if you are on BG Pox or Jund or Loam decks. You might want to play Deed, which is ridiculously good right now. You can play Merfolk and laugh at everybody's blue based decks. Play Enchantress or 12 Post or High Tide. Play Terminus, play Supreme Verdicts. Play fucking Smallpox (another incredibly underrated card). You have Deluge, Golgari Charm (god knows why nobody is playing it main deck). Learn to play Threshold properly. OK, it's an awful design and a bitch to deal with, but saying so for the 1500th time on a forum online is not gonna change the fact that it exists, must be dealt with and most probably is not going to be banned anytime soon; and you have plenty of options to just ignore it or deal with it.

Edit:It was more fun back when you wanted to ban Brainstorm, no doubt, now its just lame whining.

Both of these things. Forever.

[Zombie]

In a few years, we'll be playing hideous, miserable games because the format is saturated with stupid shit like TNN and [cheatycard]=>[Omnidrool+EnterTheZZZ, Griseltard, Jin-Git, Emratrolol]. Yet none of those cards were "something the format can't deal with" or "bannable enough".



Oh right, that's why elves, Jund and miracles are all running 4 of this card so powerful that its is banworthy. Right?


The argument against TNN has never hinged on raw power level. The key crime is just leading to absurdly shitty games of Magic, and being strong enough that those games actually get played.

[Dzra]

The argument against TNN has never hinged on raw power level. The key crime is just leading to absurdly shitty games of Magic, and being strong enough that those games actually get played.

I'll tag in here. It isn't like people can't deal with Nemesis. I have adjusted my deck/SB and am fully capable of dealing with it. That said, there are still plenty of games that happen where Nemesis just makes the game incredibly non-interactive and embarrassing for both players. If I did the math correctly and assuming you don't already have an out in your hand, you only have about a 46% chance to draw your 4-of answer over the next 7 turns that it will take TNN to kill you without equipment.

While this isn't a big deal when compared to a combo deck, it is actually a big deal when you realize that this is a fair card played in fair decks and that Nemesis has little to no downside in terms of consistency. For a fair deck to resolve a card and be about 50% to just plain win the game is a bit on the frustrating side. Again, it isn't as if I haven't adjusted or that people in general haven't adjusted their decks. It's just that Nemesis simply contributes to more coin flip games in fair mirrors.

[Barook]

I'll tag in here. It isn't like people can't deal with Nemesis. I have adjusted my deck/SB and am fully capable of dealing with it. That said, there are still plenty of games that happen where Nemesis just makes the game incredibly non-interactive and embarrassing for both players. If I did the math correctly and assuming you don't already have an out in your hand, you only have about a 46% chance to draw your 4-of answer over the next 7 turns that it will take TNN to kill you without equipment.
People seem to forget that TNN + equipment isn't the only problem.

TNN in multiples is also quite hideous since your ground forces can be stalled forever while taking the beatdown, making racing rather hard - and you can't simply deal with those as easily as equipment, like some people suggested.


In a few years, we'll be playing hideous, miserable games because the format is saturated with stupid shit like TNN and [cheatycard]=>[Omnidrool+EnterTheZZZ, Griseltard, Jin-Git, Emratrolol]. Yet none of those cards were "something the format can't deal with" or "bannable enough".

The argument against TNN has never hinged on raw power level. The key crime is just leading to absurdly shitty games of Magic, and being strong enough that those games actually get played.
If Mystical Tutor can be banned because the format is more fun without it, I fail to see how a even more unfun card that actually warps the meta around it should stay unbanned.

How long does it take people to see that TNN reduces diversity alot - RUG Delver is dying (it only still puts up results because people own the cardboard - on MODO, it already has been completely replaced by BUG Delver and Patriot), non-blue midrange is dead and Storm is also on life support.

Playing different flavors of TNN + SFM package with a few different spells is not format diversity.

What boogles my mind the most is how people can acknowledge its shitty design and still argue against a ban "because reasons". Sure, some non-shitty answers exists, but threats > answers. If the answers were actually sufficient, Jund wouldn't be disappearing from the format since it can pack tons of answers to TNN - discard, Liliana, Golgari Charm, (Deed).

[Patrunkenphat7]

Soooo is the announcement definitely tonight at midnight?

[TheArchitect]

Soooo is the announcement definitely tonight at midnight?

No, its next sunday/monday after BNG's release at midnight. SCG stream just talked about this, apparently it was confirmed from WotC.

[Patrunkenphat7]

No, its next sunday/monday after BNG's release at midnight. SCG stream just talked about this, apparently it was confirmed from WotC.

Oh I see, thanks.

[Grand Superior]

Welp, guess I don't have to stay up late tonight. Was kinda hoping it was tonight, though, even if I don't think there'll be any changes for Legacy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm guessing that when I look it up on the 3rd I will see the phrase "no changes."

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[somethingdotdotdot]

I don't understand why people are so adamant about banning a 3/1 creature. My argument against banning it isn't even that there are tons of answers to the card. Its simply that the format hasn't properly adapted to the card yet. Every time a powerful new card comes out, everyone starts trying to brew with it and putting it into every deck that can support it. First it was tarmogoyf, then snapcaster, then deathrite shaman, and now true-name nemesis. The format is currently saturated with the card, but I don't think it'll stay this way.

I also don't understand why everyone is calling the card format warping. It's a strong card and has strengthened a lot of blade variants, but its not the most popular card in the current format. Just taking a brief look at the current top 4 decks on tcdecks, the top 17/29 are tnn decks, and 12/29 aren't. Its rarely ran as a 4 of in any of these decks and is often a dead card in combo matchups.

The two main components that tnn negates are targeted creature removal and non-evasive creatures. The main cards in this category are swords to plowshares, tarmogoyf, batterskull, punishing fires, and nimble mongoose. Doesn't tnn allow people to play different creatures because they can get around tnn? Cards like serra avenger and tombstalker are seeing more play now. You can call this format warping--but the reason that smaller evasive fliers didnt see play was because people needed to get around the tarmogoyf. Since tnn stops goyf so well, these underplayed evasive creatures can be profitably utilized. In essence, we are changing the format, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Furthermore, I don't understand why people are so upset that there are decks that no longer perform because tnn exists. Decks like RUG have been tier 1 for about 2-3 years since the printing of delver. It jumped from tier 1.5-2 to THE deck to beat overnight. It's had a very good run, but it hasn't gotten any real love for about a year now. RUG has also been such a huge part of the metagame that people have been metaing against it for quite a while. The archetype itself is still very much alive--patriot and bug delver decks are still topping all over the place.

Storm is another deck that hasn't really innovated in about 2 sets. The last amazing card it got was past in flames (maybe abrupt decay to a lesser degree) and has been getting weaker with all of the hate that's been printed in the last couple of years. It's another deck that has been on the dtb list for a while and I"m sure that if hate towards the deck drops off, it'll make a sudden resurgence at some point down the road.

Lastly, people have argued that it makes games non-interactive. Again, the card only makes ground based creatures and targeted removal worse. As a card, it requires players to diversify in order to interact. You may say that some of these options are suboptimal, but if they work to crush the tnn decks, aren't they perfectly legitimate answers? A lot of legacy cards are either blatantly overpowered or absolutely useless depending on the matchup--blood moon, swords to plowshares, terminus, rest in peace, liliana of the veil, etc. Every answer card's power level has high variance depending on who's sitting across the table.

[Dzra]

Honestly, the argument to ban TNN "because ___ deck died" is a pretty poor battle to fight. I don't care that there are a lot of Blue decks; people will like playing Blue in a format capable of t1 and t2 wins. I don't care that RUG or Jund are putting up bad numbers right now; decks will always be falling out of favor due to various meta occurrences. The only argument for doing something about True-Name Nemesis is that it is a completely non-interactive card that should not* be.

* "Should not" is rather subjective, of course, but I use this in the context of what people expect from "fair" and "unfair" cards. Unfair cards like Show and Tell, Reanimate, Past in Flames, Sneak Attack, etc are generally pretty non-interactive; however, they come with a price. That price is having to formulate your entire deck around the deployment of said unfair card and the risk that should it be stopped, you are very likely dead in the water. Fair cards, on the other hand, do not have this risk (they aren't "all-in" and they don't disrupt a deck's consistency) but to balance this they have the downside that opponents will likely be able to interact with them.

The issue is not power; every card in Legacy is expected to be powerful. The issue is that True-Name Nemesis breaks the rules by being both low-risk and non-interactive.

[Zombie]

I don't understand why people are so adamant about banning a 3/1 creature. My argument against banning it isn't even that there are tons of answers to the card. Its simply that the format hasn't properly adapted to the card yet. Every time a powerful new card comes out, everyone starts trying to brew with it and putting it into every deck that can support it. First it was tarmogoyf, then snapcaster, then deathrite shaman, and now true-name nemesis. The format is currently saturated with the card, but I don't think it'll stay this way.

I also don't understand why everyone is calling the card format warping. It's a strong card and has strengthened a lot of blade variants, but its not the most popular card in the current format. Just taking a brief look at the current top 4 decks on tcdecks, the top 17/29 are tnn decks, and 12/29 aren't. Its rarely ran as a 4 of in any of these decks and is often a dead card in combo matchups.

A card doesn't need to be the most played card in a format, or even close to it, to be format-warping. As an example, say FoW didn't exist. TES would immediately be a super strong deck on the back of quick ETW, and plays like 2 of them and a singleton Tendrils. Yet the existence of ETW is what makes the deck able to kill people consistently at all.

TNN is played in shuffle-heavy cantrip shells. It WILL be found eventually.


The two main components that tnn negates are targeted creature removal and non-evasive creatures. The main cards in this category are swords to plowshares, tarmogoyf, batterskull, punishing fires, and nimble mongoose. Doesn't tnn allow people to play different creatures because they can get around tnn? Cards like serra avenger and tombstalker are seeing more play now. You can call this format warping--but the reason that smaller evasive fliers didnt see play was because people needed to get around the tarmogoyf. Since tnn stops goyf so well, these underplayed evasive creatures can be profitably utilized. In essence, we are changing the format, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Your list here basically reads "normal Magic". Negating normal Magic is usually a thing you need to playa a dedicated combo deck or otherwise a heavy build-around synergy deck to do, with all the problems that entails. TNN, though, is just a goodstuff card played in goodstuff decks.


Furthermore, I don't understand why people are so upset that there are decks that no longer perform because tnn exists. Decks like RUG have been tier 1 for about 2-3 years since the printing of delver. It jumped from tier 1.5-2 to THE deck to beat overnight. It's had a very good run, but it hasn't gotten any real love for about a year now. RUG has also been such a huge part of the metagame that people have been metaing against it for quite a while. The archetype itself is still very much alive--patriot and bug delver decks are still topping all over the place.

Storm is another deck that hasn't really innovated in about 2 sets. The last amazing card it got was past in flames (maybe abrupt decay to a lesser degree) and has been getting weaker with all of the hate that's been printed in the last couple of years. It's another deck that has been on the dtb list for a while and I"m sure that if hate towards the deck drops off, it'll make a sudden resurgence at some point down the road.

Lastly, people have argued that it makes games non-interactive. Again, the card only makes ground based creatures and targeted removal worse. As a card, it requires players to diversify in order to interact. You may say that some of these options are suboptimal, but if they work to crush the tnn decks, aren't they perfectly legitimate answers? A lot of legacy cards are either blatantly overpowered or absolutely useless depending on the matchup--blood moon, swords to plowshares, terminus, rest in peace, liliana of the veil, etc. Every answer card's power level has high variance depending on who's sitting across the table.

Because those decks are ones you can play normal Magic against, and combo decks that clearly need a lot of skill to pilot (plus can be hated with just about anything printed), and if you play smart they can just plain collapse. You can actually play nice games against those.

And yes it's uninteractive. The answers to it are really narrow, even if some are effective enough in a vacuum. Though many are not, because TNN is not played in a vacuum, but in fair decks that just have a near indestructible clock built in. A combo deck has excessive trouble with specialized hate, a TNN deck just shrugs at most of it because there's a rest of a Delver deck / Stoneblade deck for the opponent to deal with. The only usual overlap in terms of "cards to fight this" being artifact removal and Deed, pretty much.

[btm10]

What boogles my mind the most is how people can acknowledge its shitty design and still argue against a ban "because reasons". Sure, some non-shitty answers exists, but threats > answers. If the answers were actually sufficient, Jund wouldn't be disappearing from the format since it can pack tons of answers to TNN - discard, Liliana, Golgari Charm, (Deed).

And it boggles my mind that people can acknowledge the fact that answers exist (quality aside, for the moment) while blithely writing off the reasons against a ban as trivial. The two most compelling arguments against a ban are the still-extant argument that it really isn't format distorting in the Mental Misstep sense and that banning a creature sets a dangerous precedent for relying on the DCI to handle decks/cards for which a large number of reliable answers exist because they're upopular among a vocal subset of players (I have no idea if it's a majority or not).

While the recent metagame shifts coincide with the release of TNN, most of the changes are traceable to second-order effects of TNN rather explicitly shifting into TNN vs. Anti-TNN decks. The only primary effects are benign like the RUG Delver to BUG or UWR Delver shift. And the slowness of shift away from RUG in the real cardboard format can also be attributed to the fact that it isn't bad enough for people to trade away their cards to switch to BUG or UWR and the faster changes in the online meta are a result of trend-following rather than "real" shifts. Beyond that, we still have Reanimator, the whole family of UW Countertop strategies, Blade control (which, admittedly, runs TNN), Sneak and Show, Nic Fit, Elves, and, increasingly, Lands variants performing well. The decline in Jund is probably more a result of two trends: more people playing fast combo that favors counters over discard as answers, and the overlap between Jund and BUG Delver on the one hand and Lands decks (including Depths builds) on the other, both in terms of cards and player base. You may attribute the increase in combo as being due to TNN being played, but TNN increases the number of counter-packing strategies so it's hard to see the argument where this makes for a more hospitable environment for combo.

[Barook]

I also don't understand why everyone is calling the card format warping. It's a strong card and has strengthened a lot of blade variants, but its not the most popular card in the current format. Just taking a brief look at the current top 4 decks on tcdecks, the top 17/29 are tnn decks, and 12/29 aren't. Its rarely ran as a 4 of in any of these decks and is often a dead card in combo matchups.
Let's not mix up data here. A top 4 isn't very represenative. 58% of the meta would be Survival ban-level. It hasn't reached that level, at least not yet.


And it boggles my mind that people can acknowledge the fact that answers exist (quality aside, for the moment) while blithely writing off the reasons against a ban as trivial. The two most compelling arguments against a ban are the still-extant argument that it really isn't format distorting in the Mental Misstep sense and that banning a creature sets a dangerous precedent for relying on the DCI to handle decks/cards for which a large number of reliable answers exist because they're upopular among a vocal subset of players (I have no idea if it's a majority or not).
1. "Format warping" is up to debate. I would consider a meta consisting of TNN decks, Anti-TNN decks and "Fuck the opponent and his TNN, I play A+B combo" definitely a warped format - and that's the direction we're currently heading for.

2. If it's broken, ban it. End of story. This isn't Standard and creatures shouldn't have some magical ban protection just because they're creatures. Let's get real here: "Okay, TNN is banned, let's ban Delver next." isn't going to happen. Maybe Griselbrand, but that's a better version of banned card.

3. Flash had answers, too. That doesn't mean it wasn't ban-worthy. Every card has answers, but the question is whether or not they're able to keep said card in check.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Your list here basically reads "normal Magic". Negating normal Magic is usually a thing you need to playa a dedicated combo deck or otherwise a heavy build-around synergy deck to do, with all the problems that entails. TNN, though, is just a goodstuff card played in goodstuff decks.

Because those decks are ones you can play normal Magic against, and combo decks that clearly need a lot of skill to pilot (plus can be hated with just about anything printed), and if you play smart they can just plain collapse. You can actually play nice games against those.

And yes it's uninteractive. The answers to it are really narrow, even if some are effective enough in a vacuum. Though many are not, because TNN is not played in a vacuum, but in fair decks that just have a near indestructible clock built in. A combo deck has excessive trouble with specialized hate, a TNN deck just shrugs at most of it because there's a rest of a Delver deck / Stoneblade deck for the opponent to deal with. The only usual overlap in terms of "cards to fight this" being artifact removal and Deed, pretty much.

I'm not sure what you mean by "normal" magic. The term itself is very loose and hard to pinpoint exactly. Taken loosely, I'll just assume the definition of a "normal" deck is a deck that wins using the red zone with creatures that are cast (or vialed in) one at a time. Under this definition of "normal" magic, all true-name nemesis decks fit.

Another possible definition might be: all decks that fit the previous definition, excluding any decks that include true-name nemesis. If this is the definition, I gave a couple of decks that don't run true-name that can still perform in the current metagame. This list includes: death and taxes, team america, jund, and rock as creature decks that don't use tnn and miracles, 12post, 43 lands, jund depths as control decks that are virutally creature-less. Of these, only dnt, team america and miracles are decks to beat, but these are "normal" decks under the second definition and make up about 3/8 or 1/3 of all decks to beat. All 3 decks to beat have fairly good to even matchups against the true-name nemesis decks.

As for answers to true-name nemesis, deed and disenchant effects definitely aren't where they end. Deed is really good right now, but there are answers to true-name that can be played main-deck. In black: toxic deluge, deed, damnation, thoughtseize, inquisition of kozilek, cabal therapy, innocent blood, diabolic edict; in white: terminus, supreme verdict; in blue: counterspell, force of will. This list would be a lot longer if I included cards that are sideboard material. In fact, most -1/-1 effects are really good against two other decks to beat: death and taxes and elves. Red has access to red elemental blasts that most red decks already pack. Its true that green really doesn't have any answers to true-name other than racing (they dont really have good flying creatures), but the same can be said of green and combo decks. Furthermore, most of the maindeck answers (except the blue ones) are actually quite good against creature strategies in general--thus it hates on the delver/blade aspect of the deck as well as the true-name nemesis itself.

Beyond just answers to true-name nemesis, I already mentioned that fliers and other evasive creatures have a lot more value now. This also happens to make true-name nemesis a more attractive option, but there are also evasive creatures in other colors that deserve a second look. Serra avenger has been seeing a lot more playing since tnn got printed. Like I said before, the requirement that creatures need some kind of evasion allows a greater creature diversity that what we've had in recent magic history: undercosted big beaters ala tarmogoyf, knight of the reliquary, batterskull, nimble mongoose, etc. Even in this list, the only cards that true-name really invalidates are goyf and mongoose. Batterskull and knight still retain its utility.

Lastly, its hard to say what is format warping and what is metagame changing. I think the two are basically the same thing, with the exception that format warping indicates that its metagame change on an extreme scale. This does essentially boil down to numbers. I'm not saying that a card needs to be the most-played card in a metagame, but that the relative increase in numbers of a certain archetype needs to be considered. In your hypothetical, if force of will got banned, if only 20% of the decks change, I think that would be considered meta-game shifting. However, if 80% of the decks change, that may be considered format-warping. Again, the measurement itself is quite subjective and you need to take in account the percentage change relative to the pre-change saturation of the deck/strategy/card. A 20% absolute increase in turn-1 combo deck numbers is a lot more startling than a 20% absolute increase in midrange blade numbers (the first is probably a relative increase of over 400%, the latter is probably a relative increase of 40-50%). All in all, I think that blade itself as an archetype has become more popular, but it was already a very popular strategy. The introduction of true-name has increased its popularity, but largely because an effective foil to the strategy hasn't been widely adopted yet.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Article, not from Wizards though, confirming that the update is tonight:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/breaking-through-molding-modern/

I have received a lot of conflicting info on this, so we'll see if it goes up tonight.

[Lord Seth]

Article, not from Wizards though, confirming that the update is tonight:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/breaking-through-molding-modern/

I have received a lot of conflicting info on this, so we'll see if it goes up tonight.No, it's not tonight. It's next week. See here (https://twitter.com/TrickMTG/status/426385719989665792).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well then lol @ channel fireball.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[conboy31]

Why "lol" at channel fireball? WotC had previously confirmed Jan. 27th on twitter.

https://twitter.com/Wizards_CS/status/420732228469915650

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well shit.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[DragoFireheart]

tl;dr WotC is brain farting.

[alphastryk]

next week:

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/01272014a

[(nameless one)]

LOL. Trolling by WotC (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/01272014a)

[conboy31]

When it does finally arrive i'd like to see around 5 cards come off the lists between vintage, legacy, and modern. Flash is an easy unrestrict in vintage.

[Lemnear]

When it does finally arrive i'd like to see around 5 cards come off the lists between vintage, legacy, and modern. Flash is an easy unrestrict in vintage.

Please what?? Have you ever played with Flash? The era with MUD/Flash/Gushbond at it's top was stupid as fuck!

[catmint]

Can people please stop to claim that "deed is a really good card right now". Of the many flawed "just adapt to TNN" arguments this one is particularly annoying. Deed is not a card you can just put in your deck. You have to build your deck around it and the biggest problem with it is that it has a pretty bad antisynergy with permanents in general and especially the best BG card in the format. Deed shines in Nic Fit and BUG loam/standstill control variants which have engines to support this strategy.

If you suggest to play a deed deck in order to crush the meta then go ahead and others will follow. You will need really good reasons not just play the best control deck in the format.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Honestly, the argument to ban TNN "because ___ deck died" is a pretty poor battle to fight. I don't care that there are a lot of Blue decks; people will like playing Blue in a format capable of t1 and t2 wins. I don't care that RUG or Jund are putting up bad numbers right now; decks will always be falling out of favor due to various meta occurrences. The only argument for doing something about True-Name Nemesis is that it is a completely non-interactive card that should not* be.
This.



The issue is not power; every card in Legacy is expected to be powerful. The issue is that True-Name Nemesis breaks the rules by being both low-risk and non-interactive.
And... this.



In a few years, we'll be playing hideous, miserable games because the format is saturated with stupid shit like TNN and [cheatycard]=>[Omnidrool+EnterTheZZZ, Griseltard, Jin-Git, Emratrolol]. Yet none of those cards were "something the format can't deal with" or "bannable enough".

The argument against TNN has never hinged on raw power level. The key crime is just leading to absurdly shitty games of Magic, and being strong enough that those games actually get played.
Funny that you mention this.

No more than two years ago I was able to place myself quite often (and sometimes even take away some nice souvenir), be it top4 placement in CZK 10000 tournament (RUG), or dual for a 2nd place when the next lgs opened (ANT), or top8ing one of Zuzy Cup tournaments (RUG again?), the occasional Thursday wins I don't really remember (except when I won my sixth or seventh Flooded Strand). Today? Well, I haven't placed myself reasonably (not to mention any win) for two years.

Ok, but this might be due to the fact that I suck at this game of Magickal Gatherable Cards.

So I was looking for a remedy; I was systematically trimming down the decks I use (and also my whole collection) in attempt to "specialize in decks I master" and "limit the number of distractive factors" and whatever the reason. But all the time I was missing one thing. Although I subconsciously found the right approach to the format, I did everything in the wrong way: the trouble is not in the decks, neither it's in my inability to play them, the trouble is in the format alone.

For me (and yeah, this is very personal opinion, and feel free to not agree), Legacy became really boring format in last two or three years, with tournaments that became similar to the Friday evenings: you leave home expecting fun, and the closer you get to the pub, the more you're saying to yourself "do I realy need to waste my time, money and liver with all those nerds and weirdos?"
And when my mindset is "wth am I doing here?" and "man, I'd love to be at home" and "I hope it won't be longer than six rounds", then it's not too surprising that I can't win anything. I may trim the decks however I wish to, and sculpt the perfect 75, but as long as I go to the lgs ALREADY DEFEATED, I won't win: that simple it is.

Legacy turned to a strange (and also very expensive) format full of retarded crap like Grisly and Emmie, annoying decks to beat like GW Bear Stax and Mono-W Bear Stasis and [insert color combination here] Delver decks; TNN is just a continuation of this trend.
If WotC really want to kill Legacy, then I guess they're doing it right. At least in my case.

[Snief]

This.



And... this.



Funny that you mention this.

No more than two years ago I was able to place myself quite often (and sometimes even take away some nice souvenir), be it top4 placement in CZK 10000 tournament (RUG), or dual for a 2nd place when the next lgs opened (ANT), or top8ing one of Zuzy Cup tournaments (RUG again?), the occasional Thursday wins I don't really remember (except when I won my sixth or seventh Flooded Strand). Today? Well, I haven't placed myself reasonably (not to mention any win) for two years.

Ok, but this might be due to the fact that I suck at this game of Magickal Gatherable Cards.

So I was looking for a remedy; I was systematically trimming down the decks I use (and also my whole collection) in attempt to "specialize in decks I master" and "limit the number of distractive factors" and whatever the reason. But all the time I was missing one thing. Although I subconsciously found the right approach to the format, I did everything in the wrong way: the trouble is not in the decks, neither it's in my inability to play them, the trouble is in the format alone.

For me (and yeah, this is very personal opinion, and feel free to not agree), Legacy became really boring format in last two or three years, with tournaments that became similar to the Friday evenings: you leave home expecting fun, and the closer you get to the pub, the more you're saying to yourself "do I realy need to waste my time, money and liver with all those nerds and weirdos?"
And when my mindset is "wth am I doing here?" and "man, I'd love to be at home" and "I hope it won't be longer than six rounds", then it's not too surprising that I can't win anything. I may trim the decks however I wish to, and sculpt the perfect 75, but as long as I go to the lgs ALREADY DEFEATED, I won't win: that simple it is.

Legacy turned to a strange (and also very expensive) format full of retarded crap like Grisly and Emmie, annoying decks to beat like GW Bear Stax and Mono-W Bear Stasis and [insert color combination here] Delver decks; TNN is just a continuation of this trend.
If WotC really want to kill Legacy, then I guess they're doing it right. At least in my case.

Although this is your personal opinion I have to tell you that I can't agree with you. I think legacy is as balanced as it gets for the first time in years. Sure, there is always some annoying card but TNN isn't one of them (I mean, a three mana creature, really?). I honestly cannot remember the number of games I lost despite having TNN in board.
The real problem in Legacy is imo the community which won't adapt to the new cards because they assume playing the straight same deck for 5 years (e.g. RUG) despite it being up to date with the modern metagame will do them any good. Additionally in Legacy play skill has become more important than ever; I won't say that the average eternal player is a bad player (same old, same old) but you can't throw together your deck 5min before the tournament and expect to make a decent finish. Proper preparation, play testing and thinking outside the box is the key.

[testing32]

Although this is your personal opinion I have to tell you that I can't agree with you. I think legacy is as balanced as it gets for the first time in years. Sure, there is always some annoying card but TNN isn't one of them (I mean, a three mana creature, really?). I honestly cannot remember the number of games I lost despite having TNN in board.
The real problem in Legacy is imo the community which won't adapt to the new cards because they assume playing the straight same deck for 5 years (e.g. RUG) despite it being up to date with the modern metagame will do them any good. Additionally in Legacy play skill has become more important than ever; I won't say that the average eternal player is a bad player (same old, same old) but you can't throw together your deck 5min before the tournament and expect to make a decent finish. Proper preparation, play testing and thinking outside the box is the key.

This. People complain every time a new card is printed that makes their pet decks unplayable. TNN is fine.

Cards that could be unbanned without a problem - Mind's Desire, Bargain, Frantic Search, Earthcraft, Mind Twist and Black Vise.

The delver and esper decks are slanted hard to beat the fair decks. Storm needs some love. Mind Twist and Black Vise aren't even good cards.

[MGB]

People seem to forget that TNN + equipment isn't the only problem.

TNN in multiples is also quite hideous since your ground forces can be stalled forever while taking the beatdown, making racing rather hard - and you can't simply deal with those as easily as equipment, like some people suggested.


If Mystical Tutor can be banned because the format is more fun without it, I fail to see how a even more unfun card that actually warps the meta around it should stay unbanned.

How long does it take people to see that TNN reduces diversity alot - RUG Delver is dying (it only still puts up results because people own the cardboard - on MODO, it already has been completely replaced by BUG Delver and Patriot), non-blue midrange is dead and Storm is also on life support.

Playing different flavors of TNN + SFM package with a few different spells is not format diversity.

What boogles my mind the most is how people can acknowledge its shitty design and still argue against a ban "because reasons". Sure, some non-shitty answers exists, but threats > answers. If the answers were actually sufficient, Jund wouldn't be disappearing from the format since it can pack tons of answers to TNN - discard, Liliana, Golgari Charm, (Deed).

Exactly. This post details my thoughts precisely.

You *can* deal with TNN, but overall, it's like trying to deal with Survival of the Fittest. It makes you run a bunch of crappy cards you otherwise wouldn't run, and in the end, you'll still lose the majority of your games against TNN decks. Unless you want to run TNN decks yourself, and then the format becomes even more of the "Play an X variant or play an anti-X variant or lose". Just like it was in the Vengevival hey-day.

Additionally, I don't know if maybe Stoneforge Mystic isn't the card that should be banned. In some ways it is like a weaker Oath of Druids that, for two mana, can invalidate most aggro decks. If they don't ban TNN, they have to ban Stoneforge Mystic. Legacy can probably support one of the two, but not both.

[testing32]

Exactly. This post details my thoughts precisely.

You *can* deal with TNN, but overall, it's like trying to deal with Survival of the Fittest. It makes you run a bunch of crappy cards you otherwise wouldn't run, and in the end, you'll still lose the majority of your games against TNN decks. Unless you want to run TNN decks yourself, and then the format becomes even more of the "Play an X variant or play an anti-X variant or lose". Just like it was in the Vengevival hey-day.

This is not like SotF. This is like Emrakul or Griselbrand.

[Star|Scream]

This.



And... this.



Funny that you mention this.

No more than two years ago I was able to place myself quite often (and sometimes even take away some nice souvenir), be it top4 placement in CZK 10000 tournament (RUG), or dual for a 2nd place when the next lgs opened (ANT), or top8ing one of Zuzy Cup tournaments (RUG again?), the occasional Thursday wins I don't really remember (except when I won my sixth or seventh Flooded Strand). Today? Well, I haven't placed myself reasonably (not to mention any win) for two years.

Ok, but this might be due to the fact that I suck at this game of Magickal Gatherable Cards.

So I was looking for a remedy; I was systematically trimming down the decks I use (and also my whole collection) in attempt to "specialize in decks I master" and "limit the number of distractive factors" and whatever the reason. But all the time I was missing one thing. Although I subconsciously found the right approach to the format, I did everything in the wrong way: the trouble is not in the decks, neither it's in my inability to play them, the trouble is in the format alone.

For me (and yeah, this is very personal opinion, and feel free to not agree), Legacy became really boring format in last two or three years, with tournaments that became similar to the Friday evenings: you leave home expecting fun, and the closer you get to the pub, the more you're saying to yourself "do I realy need to waste my time, money and liver with all those nerds and weirdos?"
And when my mindset is "wth am I doing here?" and "man, I'd love to be at home" and "I hope it won't be longer than six rounds", then it's not too surprising that I can't win anything. I may trim the decks however I wish to, and sculpt the perfect 75, but as long as I go to the lgs ALREADY DEFEATED, I won't win: that simple it is.

Legacy turned to a strange (and also very expensive) format full of retarded crap like Grisly and Emmie, annoying decks to beat like GW Bear Stax and Mono-W Bear Stasis and [insert color combination here] Delver decks; TNN is just a continuation of this trend.
If WotC really want to kill Legacy, then I guess they're doing it right. At least in my case.

So you haven't been doing well in tournaments because the format sucks?

[MGB]

This is not like SotF. This is like Emrakul or Griselbrand.

Emrakul or Griselbrand force you to build your entire deck around them.

You can either play Reanimator or you can play Sneak 'n Show. You have to resolve a 2-card combo, at MINIMUM, to enable these creatures - a combo that has many weak points that can be exploited through general-use main deck spells and general-use sideboard cards that can help multiple match-ups.

TNN doesn't require anything but blue mana. It can be shoved into anything. And the cards that can deal with it are mostly marginal stuff that doesn't have much general-use applications outside of specifically dealing with cards like TNN.

This is more similar to Survival because while you could play narrow hate to stop it, you will still open yourself up to losing to creature swarm by the SotF deck, or by some other kind of combo that invalidates your grave hate, or your enchantment hate, or whatever. If you stop Emrakul/Griselbrand decks from assembling their combo, they can't win any other way. If you play your narrow sideboard card against TNN, the TNN deck still has other creatures, or it has Jace, or it has anything else it can kill you with.

[testing32]

Emrakul or Griselbrand force you to build your entire deck around them.

You can either play Reanimator or you can play Sneak 'n Show. You have to resolve a 2-card combo, at MINIMUM, to enable these creatures - a combo that has many weak points that can be exploited through general-use main deck spells and general-use sideboard cards that can help multiple match-ups.

TNN doesn't require anything but blue mana. It can be shoved into anything. And the cards that can deal with it are mostly marginal stuff that doesn't have much general-use applications outside of specifically dealing with cards like TNN.

TNN can't be shoved into anything (Bant, TA). It's played almost exclusively with SFM in a tempo/control shell.

TNN kills RUG, Shardless, Maverick and Jund. It's not overwhelming top 8s. People cry about their pet decks.

Show and Tell kills zoo, lands and aggroloam. It's not overwhelming top 8s. People cry about their pet decks.

Seems pretty similar to me.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Although this is your personal opinion I have to tell you that I can't agree with you. I think legacy is as balanced as it gets for the first time in years. Sure, there is always some annoying card but TNN isn't one of them (I mean, a three mana creature, really?). I honestly cannot remember the number of games I lost despite having TNN in board.
The real problem in Legacy is imo the community which won't adapt to the new cards because they assume playing the straight same deck for 5 years (e.g. RUG) despite it being up to date with the modern metagame will do them any good. Additionally in Legacy play skill has become more important than ever; I won't say that the average eternal player is a bad player (same old, same old) but you can't throw together your deck 5min before the tournament and expect to make a decent finish. Proper preparation, play testing and thinking outside the box is the key.

But I didn't say saying Legacy is unbalanced, I said it's boring. And I'm not saying TNN is unbalanced (although maybe it is unbalanced), I'm saying it's boring. And this trend of overpowered and/or boring cards started few years ago and doesn't seem to stop soon.

I adapted. And if I wasn't that lazy-ass about sorting and scanning, I'd be even more adapted than I'm now... :wink:

Btw, I'm not sure what's so bad about playing the old decks, it was what brought me to Legacy at first. And I simply don't understand why someone's desire to play with new toys should be more valuable than my joy from playing with the old ones (welcome to the world of particular interests); especially when this isn't even the cause.

On the "you can't throw together your deck 5min before the tournament and expect to make a decent finish. Proper preparation, play testing and thinking outside the box is the key," part: ou missed my point.
The first thing I never done, and I don't know why you came to the opposite conclusion. The thinking outside of box has nothing to do with the boredom of Legacy, unless you meant something really different. In this case I thought out 450 Euros outside my boxes on GP:Prague just from the three Chinamen, but there were no TNNs involved.



So you haven't been doing well in tournaments because the format sucks?
Kind of.

[Lemnear]

Cards that could be unbanned without a problem - Mind's Desire, Bargain, Frantic Search, Earthcraft, Mind Twist and Black Vise.

Seriously?