All B/R update speculation.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think I'd buy back LEDs and USeas if they'd unban Mind's Desire... :laugh:

[DragoFireheart]

I want to see the following unbanned Feb 3rd:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Mana Drain
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mishra's Workshop
Skullclamp
Oath of Druids
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon


I then want to watch like a mad scientist at what the results would be.

[testing32]

Seriously?

I think the meta could handle it. Might have to stop running 4 bolts and 4 plows main though. Which would be a good thing.

[DragoFireheart]

I think the meta could handle it. Might have to stop running 4 bolts and 4 plows main though. Which would be a good thing.

Those are some good drugs you are on what kind? And are you sharing cause DAMN!

[testing32]

Those are some good drugs you are on what kind? And are you sharing cause DAMN!

Lets take a look at the most recent SCG top 8. First, lands won. The esper deck that got top 4 ran 3 FoW, 1 pierce, 2 lil and 2 thoughtseize. No respect at all for combo. Every deck is slanted to beating fair decks right now. Want to make TNN worse? Make combo better.

[Lemnear]

I think the meta could handle it. Might have to stop running 4 bolts and 4 plows main though. Which would be a good thing.

Handing Bryant and me Mind's Desire sounds sure like a good idea...

[DragoFireheart]

Lets take a look at the most recent SCG top 8. First, lands won. The esper deck that got top 4 ran 3 FoW, 1 pierce, 2 lil and 2 thoughtseize. No respect at all for combo. Every deck is slanted to beating fair decks right now. Want to make TNN worse? Make combo better.

But TNN is good because it beats the fair decks which lets the TNN player devote their entire sideboard to Combo.


Handing Bryant and me Mind's Desire sounds sure like a good idea...

I wonder if Byrant could control himself.

[Lemnear]

But TNN is good because it beats the fair decks which lets the TNN player devote their entire sideboard to Combo.

Exact


I wonder if Byrant could control himself.

No chance. We had the chatter last week.

[JPoJohnson]

This. People complain every time a new card is printed that makes their pet decks unplayable. TNN is fine.

Cards that could be unbanned without a problem - Mind's Desire, Bargain, Frantic Search, Earthcraft, Mind Twist and Black Vise.

The delver and esper decks are slanted hard to beat the fair decks. Storm needs some love. Mind Twist and Black Vise aren't even good cards.

Anyone that says either Mind's Desire or Earthcraft or Yawgmoth's Bargain can be unbanned NP do not realize how powerful they are. :really:

I don't really see any on the list that will be coming off.

[Gheizen64]

I want to see the following unbanned Feb 3rd:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Mana Drain
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mishra's Workshop
Skullclamp
Oath of Druids
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon


I then want to watch like a mad scientist at what the results would be.

If i had to be ballsy :cool:


Tolarian Academy
Library of Alexandria
Mana drain
Mental Mistep
Survival of the fittest
Worldgorger dragon
Black Vise
Mind's Desire
Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Yawgmoth's Bargain

Format would still manegeable i guess. Combo get some nice tools (Desire, Dragon, Search, Bargain), control gain the two best counterspells in the game (MM and Drain), plus one of the possibly best card advantage engines (Alexandria), while aggro get Survival, Recruiter and Tolarian (aggro/MUD/prison), plus MM to stay up to the powered up control and combo.

[rufus]

Handing Bryant and me Mind's Desire sounds sure like a good idea...

The thing with Minds Desire and (to a lesser degree) Yawgmoth's Bargain is that the casting cost is high enough to make it quite difficult to play honestly. Bargain can be cheated into play, but it's less game-warping than some of the creatures they've recently printed - and those are easier to get on the table. Similarly, why cheat the casting cost of Desire when you could cheat Enter the Infinite which is much more reliable. Moreover, the window where Mind's Desire is going to be better than Tendrils of Agony is quite narrow, and tendrils is much easier to cast. Maybe the best comparison is with Time Spiral - fire off Mind's Desire to - effectively - get a grip of cards and the mana to cast them. Sure, it's strong, but it doesn't seem meta-breaking.

[feline]

I want to see the following unbanned Feb 3rd:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Mana Drain
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mishra's Workshop
Skullclamp
Oath of Druids
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon


I then want to watch like a mad scientist at what the results would be.

funniest post I've read in a while, lmao

I still advocate unbanning mind twist, people are dumping their hand on turn 1 to kill their opponent, who's going to downgrade a kill to "discard your hand, we're both topdecking, pass the turn"

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Anyone that says either Mind's Desire or Earthcraft or Yawgmoth's Bargain can be unbanned NP do not realize how powerful they are. :really:

I don't really see any on the list that will be coming off.

QFT. Honestly, the ones posting that it would be fine must not have seen what it can do. Honestly, in a format that allows 4 or none, Minds Desire will often hit minds desire, and that, people, is some bs you want no part in.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Tammit67]

I want to see the following unbanned Feb 3rd:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Mana Drain
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mishra's Workshop
Skullclamp
Oath of Druids
Survival of the Fittest
Worldgorger Dragon


I then want to watch like a mad scientist at what the results would be.

Yeah i'm not in a rush to give MUD the consistent ability to skip their mana development from early game and roar right into midgame. The vintage deck loses strip mine and solomoxen but gains 3x trinisphere? Sounds pretty nice for shops :/

[conboy31]

Please what?? Have you ever played with Flash? The era with MUD/Flash/Gushbond at it's top was stupid as fuck!

Yes. Brainstorm, merchant scroll, and ponder have all been restricted since flash was dominant. The deck will add another archetype and be no where near as streamlined as it once was.

[miguelmatix]

Is library of Alexandria or mana drain that broken in legacy?

Minds desire... Such a beast. Impossible to return.

[Lord Seth]

Is library of Alexandria or mana drain that broken in legacy?
Library of Alexandria isn't that broken when you have one out, because you have to really restrict what you play in order to keep your hand at 7.

The real issue comes when you have multiple ones out, because all of a sudden you get to start drawing 2+ cards in addition to your regular draw, which means it's much less of a constraint on what you can cast and you're drawing even more cards.

Of course, Library has the big issue that it would jump to like $1,000 each if it was unbanned.

[Zilla]

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

[sdematt]

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

Yep. Couldn't really agree more. If people are uninterested in the format, even if it's not ban worthy to some, then we've got a serious problem here.

-Matt

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I don't think Library or Drain are too powerful for Legacy, there just aren't enough copies of those cards in existence for our format.

[testing32]

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

Now that is a valid point. Unbanning Mind's Desire would make things really exciting though.

[DragoFireheart]

Anyone that says either Mind's Desire or Earthcraft or Yawgmoth's Bargain can be unbanned NP do not realize how powerful they are. :really:

I don't really see any on the list that will be coming off.

Really, Earthcraft? The other two are pretty obvious though.


Now that is a valid point. Unbanning Mind's Desire would make things really exciting though.

Only Bryant, and in his pants.

[Zombie]

This. People complain every time a new card is printed that makes their pet decks unplayable. TNN is fine.

Cards that could be unbanned without a problem - Mind's Desire, Bargain, Frantic Search, Earthcraft, Mind Twist and Black Vise.

The delver and esper decks are slanted hard to beat the fair decks. Storm needs some love. Mind Twist and Black Vise aren't even good cards.

Desire:

I think the meta could handle it. Might have to stop running 4 bolts and 4 plows main though. Which would be a good thing.

Those are some good drugs you are on what kind? And are you sharing cause DAMN!


Second two underlined, wow fun games for all. They'd add nothing to the format, and just risk making it worse. But hey, nothing the format can't deal with right?


TNN can't be shoved into anything (Bant, TA). It's played almost exclusively with SFM in a tempo/control shell.

TNN kills RUG, Shardless, Maverick and Jund. It's not overwhelming top 8s. People cry about their pet decks.

Show and Tell kills zoo, lands and aggroloam. It's not overwhelming top 8s. People cry about their pet decks.

Seems pretty similar to me.

TNN isn't played in those decks because TNN+Stoneforge > TNN. No Stoneforge, I guarantee you those decks would play TNN.
TNN decks are ~50% of the meta, format Brainstorm penetration is 65%. Balance!

[rufus]

QFT. Honestly, the ones posting that it would be fine must not have seen what it can do. Honestly, in a format that allows 4 or none, Minds Desire will often hit minds desire, and that, people, is some bs you want no part in.

Sure, if you can get Mind's Desire with a storm count in the teens, you win, but that's also true of other storm spells, and it's not that easy to chain with low storm counts:

Let's say that there are 45 cards left in the deck with three Mind's Desire's in the deck (one's on the stack, right?) You'd have to hit a storm count of 8 to have a 50% chance of chaining. Tutoring into Tendrils of Agony instead can win outright for the same mana cost.

I guess the best bet would be to run with Ill-Gotten Gains as a secondary recursion engine, but even with 7 repeater effects in the deck , it's still got a 20% chance to blank.

Not to mention that Ad Nausem is already pretty close to 'I win now' at 1 cc less in an acceleration-friendlier color.

[Admiral_Arzar]

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

This is by FAR the most important point that has been made in this entire discussion.


Sure, if you can get Mind's Desire with a storm count in the teens, you win, but that's also true of other storm spells, and it's not that easy to chain with low storm counts:

Let's say that there are 45 cards left in the deck with three Mind's Desire's in the deck (one's on the stack, right?) You'd have to hit a storm count of 8 to have a 50% chance of chaining. Tutoring into Tendrils of Agony instead can win outright for the same mana cost.

I guess the best bet would be to run with Ill-Gotten Gains as a secondary recursion engine, but even with 7 repeater effects in the deck , it's still got a 20% chance to blank.

Not to mention that Ad Nausem is already pretty close to 'I win now' at 1 cc less in an acceleration-friendlier color.

This is why (as a Storm player myself) I've never really understood the OMG chicken little argument regarding Desire. The card never dominated Extended and has been banned in Legacy forever. We have no real idea what it would do in the format, but I lean towards "not a huge amount" due to casting cost and other available options. I would play it though, because it is my favorite card in magic.

[Tammit67]

I think we can agree that if a card on the banned list is a less powerful version of a card that currently sees play, then it is safe to unban.

Black vise is probably just a worse version of lightning bolt for decks that want it. The controlling decks in the format tend to expend their resources into virtual card advantage rather quickly. Could unban

Mind twist feels worse than hymn to tourach and is certainly less of a finisher than other spells you can cast with similar mana investments (see: show and tell, ad nauseam etc) Could unban

Bargain is an upgrade to Ad nauseam: I get to run multiples and pay less per card in decks not labeled TES. Also might open up counterspells in storm since the increased bomb count means I don't necessarily need LED to get hellbent, and can instead crack LED after my bomb has resolved. I also get to piece meal my combo: Pass turn to untap lands before going off again. Can't unban

Mind's desire is... harder to evaluate. UU is certainly difficult but not unmanageable (might require LED if not using high tide). High tide seems like a natural shell although time spiral might end up being better there. As a burning wish target, you'll need high bomb density main and sufficient storm count to really take off with it, maybe something like 3x tendrils 4x Desire 2x past in flames? I'm not sure if the decks created for this are faster/more resilient than the current options. They probably are. 90% can't unban (10% wants to play with)

Frantic search I would love to have since it promotes combo decks that I think are far more interesting than show and tell/reanimator. I also think this card is very powerful with the pool of cards legacy contains. Can't unban

[2Rach]

1.) Pre-TNN, you could only call Patriot a true meta player as Blade Control and Deathblade were way, way down. I went through this already in a different thread, but here's the data: (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27102-Would-you-like-to-see-True-Name-Nemesis-gone&p=772437&viewfull=1#post772437).

The fact that Blade decks existed as a Magic: The Gathering deck pre-TNN is irrelevant as they weren't nearly putting up the results they are post-TNN. If they were all top tier before TNN (which my data shows they weren't), you'd have a point there. But alas, they were not, so you do not.

2.) Ever notice that decks only run enough TNN as they do Equipment? Patriot runs 2 maindeck Equipments and 2 TNN. Blade Control is generally on 3 maindeck Equipments and 3 maindeck TNN. You don't need to run the full 4 because you're not going to be able to have 2 TNN both equipped with Jitte in play or 2 TNN w/ 2 Batterskull equipped to them. I can't believe I even had to point that out.

Also, there are many decks that do not run a full playset of a card, even though that card is a defining, pivotal piece. Jund runs 3 Bloodbraid, AnT runs 1 Ad Nauseam, etc. Your argument of "unless it runs 4, it isn't a TNN deck" makes no sense whatsoever as TNN is clearly the primary mechanism of all of these decks' success. Again, look at the tourney results for all of these decks pre-TNN and post-TNN, it's almost night and day.

3.) Every deck that can maximize TNN's potential is currently doing so. Every deck running blue and SFM is running TNN. As UR Burn and Team America has learned by now, TNN w/o Equipment sucks, but ONLY because it's very likely facing off against an opposing TNN w/ Equipment. If the best thing you can do is resolve TNN, then what better way to trump your opponent's TNN then to Equip your TNN with Jitte? Oh that's right, there is no better strategy which why people have been CRUSHING with the TNN-Equipment plan.
1. If that's the case then it means it brought 2 decks to the forefront, in contrast with lots saying it's just inhibiting decks. +1 for TNN.

2. I can't believe that's your explanation. Absolutely dumb to me. Plenty of good reasons to run more than the equipment you run. That definitely isn't it.

Bloodbraid is run as a 3-of due to its mana cost and due to its variance can be very low impact. Ad Nauseam is a 1-of because the deck has tutors and cantrips and it hurts its own strategy(by being 5cmc). Poor examples to go with your poor reasoning.

3. The bolded is nonsense. It's the flavor right now. People just need to adapt. And people have started doing so, with various lands based decks(which were almost completely gone in the format), more combo, or with other tier 1 strategies that have kept up against it.



With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.
If "Boredom" is the reason this is a completely different debate then. Not the only one going on here though.

[Scott]

TNN decks are ~50% of the meta, format Brainstorm penetration is 65%. Balance!

What the "Blue has always been the best color; it will always be the best color; stop saying things are worse or better; deal with it" crowd omit is past years. Check out 2011 (http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=61).

Brainstorm in 52% of decks and look at the metagame breakdown on the right.

This is a broader issue than just TNN, of course.

[Mastikor]

Why are all those cards mentioned before Memory Jar? As much as I like the card art and flavor-wise, I really can't imagine it being very playable...

have fun

[Arsenal]

Why are all those cards mentioned before Memory Jar? As much as I like the card art and flavor-wise, I really can't imagine it being very playable...

have fun

Trolling for science are we?

[DragoFireheart]

Sure, if you can get Mind's Desire with a storm count in the teens, you win, but that's also true of other storm spells, and it's not that easy to chain with low storm counts:

Let's say that there are 45 cards left in the deck with three Mind's Desire's in the deck (one's on the stack, right?) You'd have to hit a storm count of 8 to have a 50% chance of chaining. Tutoring into Tendrils of Agony instead can win outright for the same mana cost.

I guess the best bet would be to run with Ill-Gotten Gains as a secondary recursion engine, but even with 7 repeater effects in the deck , it's still got a 20% chance to blank.

Not to mention that Ad Nausem is already pretty close to 'I win now' at 1 cc less in an acceleration-friendlier color.

You do realize that Desire lets you cast those tutors for free, right? And all the other things you draw, like the mana accelerants? You can Desire into a free burning wish (for example, it'd see play if desire was made legal), some mana, and then cast a Desire from your sideboard? So, 3 Desire in main and 4 burning wish is actually 7 Desire. Oh, and if you emptied your hand first, those Infernal tutors also help you out? God forbid you chain into Ant and free mana and then just draw another mind's and cast it and then just orgasm all over the other player.

There's a reason it's restricted in Vintage.

[Rizso]

chaos;786515']I don't think Library or Drain are too powerful for Legacy, there just aren't enough copies of those cards in existence for our format.

Doubt library of alexandria and drain would get unbanned they would be way to expensive... just imagine what happpend to moat and tabernacle.

[kiblast]

I could see Library unbanned only if it gets reworded as legendary. Beside that, there's the pricing issue.

[Lemnear]

It's hilarious that peeps forget about the deckbuilding restrictions of Ad Nauseam and that all those are gone the moment Bargain or Desire would be unbanned. Desire would be a Maindeck 4-off and is an engine completely Independent from your life total. A stormcount of 6 is more than enough in a deck with Infernals and Wishes.

[rufus]

You do realize that Desire lets you cast those tutors for free, right? And all the other things you draw, like the mana accelerants? You can Desire into a free burning wish (for example, it'd see play if desire was made legal), some mana, and then cast a Desire from your sideboard? So, 3 Desire in main and 4 burning wish is actually 7 Desire. Oh, and if you emptied your hand first, those Infernal tutors also help you out? God forbid you chain into Ant and free mana and then just draw another mind's and cast it and then just orgasm all over the other player.

In order to tutor into Mind's Desire "for free" you'll need at least 2 accelerants (i.e. Lion's Eye Diamond + Dark Ritual) and a tutor card. Let's say that you manage to pack 16 LED equivalent acclerants and 12 tutors into your deck, and you hit a storm count of 8. That gives around a 75% chance to hit on tutors, and roughly 87% if you allow for another Mind's Desire. Tutor -> tendrils is still better.


A stormcount of 6 is more than enough in a deck with Infernals and Wishes.

Let's assume that you've got 1 Mind's Desire in the sideboard to start, and let's say that you go hellbent with an infernal tutor to go off. So, with the 7 free spells, you'd have to:
1. hit one of the 2 Desires left in the deck. (About a 26% chance.)
2. find two acceleration cards and a tutor card, provided you got no Mind's Desires. (Assuming 12 accelerants, and 8 tutors about 50% of the remaning 7 card piles - total about 2/3 chance to chain)

Flipping Tendrils of Agony is likely to be a winner too, so the odds of going off are a little better, but it's pretty risky.

[Admiral_Arzar]

You do realize that Desire lets you cast those tutors for free, right? And all the other things you draw, like the mana accelerants? You can Desire into a free burning wish (for example, it'd see play if desire was made legal), some mana, and then cast a Desire from your sideboard? So, 3 Desire in main and 4 burning wish is actually 7 Desire. Oh, and if you emptied your hand first, those Infernal tutors also help you out? God forbid you chain into Ant and free mana and then just draw another mind's and cast it and then just orgasm all over the other player.

There's a reason it's restricted in Vintage.

Yeah, because Lotus, Moxen, and all the other absurd mana artifacts are legal.


It's hilarious that peeps forget about the deckbuilding restrictions of Ad Nauseam and that all those are gone the moment Bargain or Desire would be unbanned. Desire would be a Maindeck 4-off and is an engine completely Independent from your life total. A stormcount of 6 is more than enough in a deck with Infernals and Wishes.

I understand this completely. The issue then becomes: is the resulting deck better than existing combo decks? I have a feeling it would be a Spiral Tide-esque slow/consistent deck, but would it be better/more resilient than Spiral Tide or the various A+B decks? These questions intrigue me enough to consider unbanning it, if only to see what - if anything -would happen.

[Lemnear]

Let's assume that you've got 1 Mind's Desire in the sideboard to start, and let's say that you go hellbent with an infernal tutor to go off. So, with the 7 free spells, you'd have to:
1. hit one of the 2 Desires left in the deck. (About a 26% chance.)
2. find two acceleration cards and a tutor card, provided you got no Mind's Desires. (Assuming 12 accelerants, and 8 tutors about 50% of the remaning 7 card piles - total about 2/3 chance to chain)

Flipping Tendrils of Agony is likely to be a winner too, so the odds of going off are a little better, but it's pretty risky.

That assumption is off.

1) There won't be a Desire in the SB as getting hands on it is all you want and flipping Desire into Desire is a win
2) you won't play dead cards like Tendrils in your MD
3) free cantrips you flip for Desire provide additional outs

Don't proof points with questionable deck design



I understand this completely. The issue then becomes: is the resulting deck better than existing combo decks? I have a feeling it would be a Spiral Tide-esque slow/consistent deck, but would it be better/more resilient than Spiral Tide or the various A+B decks? These questions intrigue me enough to consider unbanning it, if only to see what - if anything -would happen.

The point is that you can play slow and controlling, using your life as a buffer against Aggro and tempo without negating your engine while still remain the Belcher-like T1/2 kills against all other decks

[lordofthepit]

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

In my case, I adapted by picking up TNN decks and apologizing profusely to each opponent for playing a "bitch" card.

[Dzra]

The point is that you don't care about your life at all. The biggest restriction is producing enough :u:. You can run all 4 Tendrils, all the mana, all the cantrips, and all the tutors. You are pretty good to hit another Mind's Desire. And if you happen to not hit another tutor/Mind's Desire then you've probably refilled your hand as well as your life total. That said... I sure wouldn't mind playing this deck. haha

Pleeease unban it, but don't think for a second that it won't be very, very powerful.

[Megadeus]

Desire is so ridiculously powerful that even as a 1 of in Vintage it is busted. I can't imagine what the format would be like if it were legal as a 4 of.

[Tammit67]

It's hilarious that peeps forget about the deckbuilding restrictions of Ad Nauseam and that all those are gone the moment Bargain or Desire would be unbanned. Desire would be a Maindeck 4-off and is an engine completely Independent from your life total. A stormcount of 6 is more than enough in a deck with Infernals and Wishes.

I agree, though some part of me would want to extend the deck to include some amount of countermagic like flusterstorm or force, which removes the likelihood of my playing playsets of infernal/BW


Desire is so ridiculously powerful that even as a 1 of in Vintage it is busted. I can't imagine what the format would be like if it were legal as a 4 of.

It's not even that good in vintage right now as a 1 of. Few successful decks are willing to support it, even with the maindeck hurkyl's recalls and infinite fast artifact mana afforded to that format

If it was unrestricted it however...

[Megadeus]

Vintage is also a format where Mental Misstep is legal so ritual based combo doesnt seem quite as powerful.

[DragoFireheart]

It's not even that good in vintage right now as a 1 of. Few successful decks are willing to support it, even with the maindeck hurkyl's recalls and infinite fast artifact mana afforded to that format

If it was unrestricted it however...

The reason it's bad is because MUD is so much better.

MUD would take a crap on the Legacy meta easy.

[Megadeus]

The reason it's bad is because MUD is so much better.

MUD would take a crap on the Legacy meta easy.

Ah yes, between MUD and Misstep, it seems rough to be a ritual based storm deck.

[Dzra]

The reason it's bad is because MUD is so much better.

MUD would take a crap on the Legacy meta easy.

Yeah, talk about format warping. MUD does ridiculous things to the Vintage meta.

[DragoFireheart]

Ah yes, between MUD and Misstep, it seems rough to be a ritual based storm deck.

Yep. But just because it's bad in Vintage doesn't make it overpowered. It just goes to show how hilariously high the power level is in Vintage.

Flash is also barely used in Vintage: must be AWFUL in Legacy! :troll:

[btm10]

I do think Earthcraft has potential for unbanning. Nic Fit, Elves, and Enchantress are the decks that spring to mind when I think about who would benefit, and I don't think it would find room in Elves. I don't play Elves, but from spending plenty of time on the other side of the table, they probably wouldn't benefit from being able to use Cradle more than they do now, at least not at the cost of being worse at chaining Elves into Natural Order or just shitting out creatures and beating you down. SquirrelCraft is probably unplayable at this stage in Legacy's development. Its main selling points are the selling points of Elves, and Elves does all of those things better, especially because all of its combo pieces are good on their own, whereas Squirrel Nest sucks. There are alternatives, but the deck functions a lot like Modern's Splinter Twin decks, and those haven't seen a Legacy port despite being in better colors, killing the turn they go off, and not leaving a bunch of tapped creatures as your only defense. The effect of Earthcraft in the other two decks could potentially be both interesting and healthy, especially since both are intrinsically strong against he who must not be True-Named.

The other cards that have been mentioned for unbanning are clearly trolls. Unbanned Desire (as Lemnear pointed out) would make for an exceedingly fast and consistent combo deck that would have no problem winning the game on turn 3 or 4 with ample protection without the A+B limitation or the need to spend life like ANT. Storm counts of even 4 or 5 would probably be sufficient to set up Desire (effectively) into Desire, which basically wins on the spot.

[Technics]

Yep. But just because it's bad in Vintage doesn't make it overpowered. It just goes to show how hilariously high the power level is in Vintage.

Flash is also barely used in Vintage: must be AWFUL in Legacy! :troll:

And by bad you mean so broken it had to be restricted. Got it...

[apple713]

And by bad you mean so broken it had to be restricted. Got it...

The difference is that 1 is bad 4 are broken.. This applies to any format

[prateta]

Unbanned Goblin Recruiter would be interesting.

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

[apple713]

Unbanned Goblin Recruiter would be interesting.

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

Its powerlevel is not as problematic ad its impact on time when stacking your deck

[TsumiBand]

Its powerlevel is not as problematic ad its impact on time when stacking your deck

Just how much time do you reckon the game has left after a Goblin deck with Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial gets done stacking the deck?
I'm all about the 'fuck you, kill me' strategy, because decks fizzle all the time. However, there are really very few worthwhile Recruiter piles where they don't just sculpt an instant or next turn win with insane redundancy. Now that counterspells need not apply because Cavern + Vial? I *LOVE* Goblins. But no.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Dzra]

How anyone could think that Goblin Recruiter was a good card to even design in the first place, let alone unban, boggles the mind.

[Dice_Box]

It's a fine card, Dwarven Recruiter is not in any way broke and it's in effect the same card. When it was printed, the goblin was fine. Then Onslaught came along...

[Lord Seth]

Mind's desire is... harder to evaluate. UU is certainly difficult but not unmanageable (might require LED if not using high tide). High tide seems like a natural shell although time spiral might end up being better there. As a burning wish target, you'll need high bomb density main and sufficient storm count to really take off with it, maybe something like 3x tendrils 4x Desire 2x past in flames? I'm not sure if the decks created for this are faster/more resilient than the current options. They probably are. 90% can't unban (10% wants to play with)
There's no "might" about Time Spiral being better than Mind's Desire in High Tide. Time Spiral IS better because it requires no setup outside of 6 mana. Mind's Desire requires that 6 mana and a healthy storm count. A huge advantage of High Tide is that it untags your lands so you can cast the stuff you draw, whereas with Mind's Desire you better really really really hope you find a Turnabout with it or you could easily screw yourself. I mean, you might as well say that Goblin Lackey "might" be better in a Goblins deck than Foundry Street Denizen. There's no contest between the two.

Some people make the argument that Mind's Desire would be played in addition to Time Spiral, but I feel even that's a poor choice because it'll be worse than whatever you take out. There are two basic parts to a High Tide deck: What you do before casting Time Spiral (getting the cards you need), and what you do after casting it (setting up the win). It's very important that all cards in the deck be as useful as possible in both cases. For example, the cantrips are useful before or after. The counterspells are useful before or after. Things like Turnabout are useful before or after. Mind's Desire is only useful after you've cast Time Spiral and some other spells (to build up the required Storm count), meaning it's a dead card beforehand, and that's not what the deck wants.

[davelin]

How anyone could think that Goblin Recruiter was a good card to even design in the first place, let alone unban, boggles the mind.

Because at the time it was printed, there wasn't as many good goblins out there.

[feline]

I have to agree with the above notes about High Tide & Minds Desire. All I can say is if they unbanned Minds Desire I wouldn't put it into the High Tide deck, I'd put Minds Desire into the Minds Desire deck.

Minds Desire is probably one of the only cards right now I would consider jumping ship on Spiral Tide for, but they are not going to unban that, I can't even say "if they ever did unban it then..." because they just will not unban that for Legacy, there's no way.

[mishima_kazuya]

In my case, I adapted by picking up TNN decks and apologizing profusely to each opponent for playing a "bitch" card.

This is how I feel start taking over a game with TNN. :frown:

I also get frustrated when I have to start resorting to situational cards (Golgari Charm and the like) and end up drawing them against the other threats(creatures with toughness > 1, like Stoneforge Mystic).

Someone pointed out that TNN leads to boring games that makes players not want to play Legacy and that is certainly not a situation anyone should support.

[JPoJohnson]

I have to agree with the above notes about High Tide & Minds Desire. All I can say is if they unbanned Minds Desire I wouldn't put it into the High Tide deck, I'd put Minds Desire into the Minds Desire deck.

Minds Desire is probably one of the only cards right now I would consider jumping ship on Spiral Tide for, but they are not going to unban that, I can't even say "if they ever did unban it then..." because they just will not unban that for Legacy, there's no way.

My thoughts 100%. I would definitely tweak away from TES if Mind's Desire was ever unbanned. But there's no point in even doing a thought experiment on building a deck b/c it won't happen.

[Tammit67]

There's no "might" about Time Spiral being better than Mind's Desire in High Tide. Time Spiral IS better because it requires no setup outside of 6 mana. Mind's Desire requires that 6 mana and a healthy storm count. A huge advantage of High Tide is that it untags your lands so you can cast the stuff you draw, whereas with Mind's Desire you better really really really hope you find a Turnabout with it or you could easily screw yourself. I mean, you might as well say that Goblin Lackey "might" be better in a Goblins deck than Foundry Street Denizen. There's no contest between the two.


If the high tide deck was about reaching a critical storm count instead of hitting that 6 mana threshold, you might view it differently. Time spiral comes at real costs: It has to resolve and you have to draw into a good enough 7. While the latter is certainly a problem for desire (although you don't give your opponent a fresh 7), the former is where desire is pretty great. Storm triggers are hard to stop :)


The entire deck would have to be tailored to creating a higher storm count, so perhaps saying the high tide shell as we now know it is the best fit is wrong. But it is my first instinct to start breaking the card, that's all.

[apple713]

I have to agree with the above notes about High Tide & Minds Desire. All I can say is if they unbanned Minds Desire I wouldn't put it into the High Tide deck, I'd put Minds Desire into the Minds Desire deck.

Minds Desire is probably one of the only cards right now I would consider jumping ship on Spiral Tide for, but they are not going to unban that, I can't even say "if they ever did unban it then..." because they just will not unban that for Legacy, there's no way.

I love combo decks, and One of the few decks I'd jump ship on sneak and show for would be minds desire. Picture is cool, mechanic is great, and it random so I'm in!

Is a minds desire deck really more powerful than high tide or ant? I didn't play when it got banned.

[Dzra]

It's a fine card, Dwarven Recruiter is not in any way broke and it's in effect the same card. When it was printed, the goblin was fine. Then Onslaught came along...

I guess that's fairish. My point is that the card is either useless and unplayable or broken and a massive time sink.

[Lemnear]

I love combo decks, and One of the few decks I'd jump ship on sneak and show for would be minds desire. Picture is cool, mechanic is great, and it random so I'm in!

Is a minds desire deck really more powerful than high tide or ant? I didn't play when it got banned.

The Old extended deck might give a clue. I've tested with that card for fun and even non lethal T1 Desires put you so far ahead that your opponent can't ever come back from it and the Discard you may flip.

Appears that peeps underestimate that Cabal Ritual is +5 mana, Dark Ritual is +3 and Rite of Flame At LEAST + 2 under a Desire and therefore AS good (or even better) than LED.

Desire into a bunch of cantrips/discard with a single LED/DArk Ritual equals at least a Mindtwist.

[Echelon]

The thing with Minds Desire and (to a lesser degree) Yawgmoth's Bargain is that the casting cost is high enough to make it quite difficult to play honestly. Bargain can be cheated into play, but it's less game-warping than some of the creatures they've recently printed - and those are easier to get on the table. Similarly, why cheat the casting cost of Desire when you could cheat Enter the Infinite which is much more reliable. Moreover, the window where Mind's Desire is going to be better than Tendrils of Agony is quite narrow, and tendrils is much easier to cast. Maybe the best comparison is with Time Spiral - fire off Mind's Desire to - effectively - get a grip of cards and the mana to cast them. Sure, it's strong, but it doesn't seem meta-breaking.

Lol how about Mind's Desiring into an Omiscience or Enter the Infinite..? Lol. Yay, I draw my deck, have a lot of free mana sources & counters to protect my combo, storm like a madman and cast Tendrils to end the game. Enjoy. Seriously, it isn't that hard to come up with this stuff...

[testing32]

What if brainstorm was banned? What would the meta look like?

I'm thinking Show and Tell would be hit pretty hard. They wouldn't be able to unload redundant combo pieces.
Esper might be ok since they still have Jace. Tempo decks might be ok.

Death and Taxes probably becomes the deck to beat. Rock might make a huge come back (here is hoping). Belcher probably gets better.

Discard gets a lot better. So does Bob, Sylvan Library and top.

Edit - Dredge gets better. Zoo and Maverick probably still aren't playable.

[rufus]

Appears that peeps underestimate that Cabal Ritual is +5 mana, Dark Ritual is +3 and Rite of Flame At LEAST + 2 under a Desire and therefore AS good (or even better) than LED.

If the goal is to tutor into Mind's Desire, finding :u::u: is also a challenge.



Lol how about Mind's Desiring into an Omiscience or Enter the Infinite..? Lol. Yay, I draw my deck, have a lot of free mana sources & counters to protect my combo, storm like a madman and cast Tendrils to end the game. Enjoy. Seriously, it isn't that hard to come up with this stuff...

Sure, Mind's Desire into those is strong, but - say - Dream Halls is comparable from that perspective.

A bit more meta:
It's hard to prove a negative (i.e. that Mind's Desire won't be problematic). Meanwhile the arguments that Mind's Desire is OMGWTFBBQ strong seem to be assertions that '6 storm is enough' without a whole lot of specifics. (This is understandable, since it wouldn't really fit into any current decks all that well.) We don't actually influence the B/R list all that much anyway, so I'm going to be leaving this in the agree to disagree bucket for now.

[Dia_Bot]

Lol how about Mind's Desiring into an Omiscience or Enter the Infinite..? Lol. Yay, I draw my deck, have a lot of free mana sources & counters to protect my combo, storm like a madman and cast Tendrils to end the game. Enjoy. Seriously, it isn't that hard to come up with this stuff...

Euuh seriously: show and tell into omniscience and EtI is still much easier to asemble.
To anyone spewing random comments without any proof other then vintage or casual games I would refer to the article on SCG by Ari Lax on the bannings/unbannings. Atleast he went to the trouble testing actual decklists.
For what it's worth he said mind's desire didn't see any stonger compared to ad Nauseam Tendrils. 4UU IS hard to get!
And bargain does cost one more mana then Ad Nauseam. This IS relevant.

I'm not saying they should be unbanned but posting random comments without any testing is useless. Do research before posting please!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The Old extended deck might give a clue. I've tested with that card for fun and even non lethal T1 Desires put you so far ahead that your opponent can't ever come back from it and the Discard you may flip.
Maybe I'm wrong, but what Lemnear wrote seems very probable. I don't think we want a card that is a possible mix of Ancestral Recall and Mind Twist. But maybe I'm mistaken, I really can't tell how the miniDesires would be powerful.

[davelin]

If the goal is to tutor into Mind's Desire, finding :u::u: is also a challenge.


Sure, Mind's Desire into those is strong, but - say - Dream Halls is comparable from that perspective.

A bit more meta:
It's hard to prove a negative (i.e. that Mind's Desire won't be problematic). Meanwhile the arguments that Mind's Desire is OMGWTFBBQ strong seem to be assertions that '6 storm is enough' without a whole lot of specifics. (This is understandable, since it wouldn't really fit into any current decks all that well.) We don't actually influence the B/R list all that much anyway, so I'm going to be leaving this in the agree to disagree bucket for now.

Omniscience/Dream Halls allows you to cast cards for free, Enter allows you to draw cards, Mind's Desire effectively allows you to do both (although a limited degree with respect to card draw).

Unlike Ad Nauseum, Past in Flames, Doomsday and even Bargain, Mind's Desire is a storm-engine that a) isn't dependent on life totals or the graveyard and b) gets exponentially better with multiples. The cards you cast with the first Desire counts adds storm towards the second, it can quickly be silly chaining Desire into Desire, etc.

[menace13]

Omniscience/Dream Halls allows you to cast cards for free, Enter allows you to draw cards, Mind's Desire effectively allows you to do both (although a limited degree with respect to card draw).

Unlike Ad Nauseum, Past in Flames, Doomsday and even Bargain, Mind's Desire is a storm-engine that a) isn't dependent on life totals or the graveyard and b) gets exponentially better with multiples. The cards you cast with the first Desire counts adds storm towards the second, it can quickly be silly chaining Desire into Desire, etc.

I don't think it's absurdly more powerful than say Omnitell is, or even reanimate/SnT Griselbrand. Desire is just another flavor of storm and I'm in favor of those decks being viable top decks. Not that I play them as i was never good at storm, but they keep magic interesting and diverse from creatures. It's also one of the few decks that can end the game on the spot in one turn. Has a high skill barrier to master, unlike Show a ridic creature into play and do what you want.

[testing32]

I don't think it's absurdly more powerful than say Omnitell is, or even reanimate/SnT Griselbrand. Desire is just another flavor of storm and I'm in favor of those decks being viable top decks. Not that I play them as i was never good at storm, but they keep magic interesting and diverse from creatures. It's also one of the few decks that can end the game on the spot in one turn. Has a high skill barrier to master, unlike Show a ridic creature into play and do what you want.

This guy gets it.

[Dia_Bot]

This guy gets it.
+1

[DragoFireheart]

Lol how about Mind's Desiring into an Omiscience or Enter the Infinite..? Lol. Yay, I draw my deck, have a lot of free mana sources & counters to protect my combo, storm like a madman and cast Tendrils to end the game. Enjoy. Seriously, it isn't that hard to come up with this stuff...

Desiring into Omniscience/Enter the Infinite sounds hilarious.

[testing32]

And another thing, this isn't extended. A mind's desire deck isn't going to be faster than TES currently is. You're going to be more susceptible hatebears and discard. UU + 4 isn't easy to hit without LED which kind of defeats the purpose of running FoW in your combo deck.

I would predict that unbanning Mind's Desire would have the same impact that the unbanning of Time Spiral had.

[JPoJohnson]

Desiring into Omniscience/Enter the Infinite sounds hilarious.

It also sounds like a very inconsistent deck.

[DragoFireheart]

It also sounds like a very inconsistent deck.

Those are usually the more fun ones.

[BVB09]

New article at SCG talking about the reserved list. The writer says MM could be unbanned.
I lived the MM era and it's true that it was the most dominant card, and it was a 4-of in multiple decks. Not to say that it invalidated some archetipes (Storm, Zoo...)
However he says, and I have to agree, that it's a reactive card. Many one drops are overpowered and some decks are unviable because of that.
It's probably not the solution legacy needs...

[Arsenal]

New article at SCG talking about the reserved list. The writer says MM could be unbanned.
I lived the MM era and it's true that it was the most dominant card, and it was a 4-of in multiple decks. Not to say that it invalidated some archetipes (Storm, Zoo...)
However he says, and I have to agree, that it's a reactive card. Many one drops are overpowered and some decks are unviable because of that.
It's probably not the solution legacy needs...

Mental Misstep safe to unban? Lolwut.

[Megadeus]

I didn't play during MM era, but just the few times I have played vintage the card seems miserable. I can't even imagine it being legal in legacy where there are arguably even more important 1 drops.

[Dia_Bot]

It could certainly be unbanned (wasn't really banworthy in the first place imo, and I played storm in that era :tongue:). But I don't think It's a fun card and it doesn't open up any new decks or archytypes so I still wouldn't like to see it unbanned. The same is true for mind twist imo.

[apple713]

Those are usually the more fun ones.

As long as you dont consider winning fun.



My stance on the banned list is that if the card when unbanned doesnt sweep the format its probably safe. Legacy is at the point where there is a fair amount of diversity with lots of really strong options. For a card to remain banned it has to be format warping. I would even rather them unban a card let it break the format then reban it instead of not trying to unban it at all.

[Arsenal]

It could certainly be unbanned (wasn't really banworthy in the first place imo, and I played storm in that era :tongue:). But I don't think It's a fun card and it doesn't open up any new decks or archytypes so I still wouldn't like to see it unbanned. The same is true for mind twist imo.

Mental Misstep greatly reduced format diversity while forcing decks to run it as a 4-of (lol Goblins) just to have a fightning chance. It was certainly banworthy.

[DragoFireheart]

It could certainly be unbanned (wasn't really banworthy in the first place imo, and I played storm in that era :tongue:). But I don't think It's a fun card and it doesn't open up any new decks or archytypes so I still wouldn't like to see it unbanned. The same is true for mind twist imo.


http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111115052818/starwars/images/thumb/4/4e/ObiWanHS-SWE.jpg/250px-ObiWanHS-SWE.jpg


I felt a great disturbance in the storm combo community, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

[Dia_Bot]

:laugh:
This is a little secret about storm: if they don't play enough hate cards, you kill them. I've never seen so few cannonists and goddock teegs in tournaments in my 4 year long storm career as during that era :smile:.

[Megadeus]

You guys dont consider it fun when every deck that isnt running chalice of the void runs 4 MM as their starting point?

[Benjammn]

Mental Misstep greatly reduced format diversity whlie forcing decks to run it as a 4-of (lol Goblins) just to have a fightning chance. It was certainly banworthy.

God, why does everyone say this? You didn't fucking play MM in Goblins, you just stopped playing Goblins. Just because MM was "colorless" doesn't mean every deck in Legacy wanted to run it or could utilize it as good as the blue decks did. MM pushed out Storm, Reanimator, Dredge, Goblins, Zoo, Elves, and several other decks as a result. You think blue decks are rampant now...it was much worse during that era. MM was attached to the hip to Brainstorm and the fact that you couldn't even play Storm anymore shows how terrible that format was.

[DragoFireheart]

You guys dont consider it fun when every deck that isnt running chalice of the void runs 4 MM as their starting point?

Chalice of the Void
Mental Misstep
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Ethersworn Canonist
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Gaddock Teeg
Phyrexian Revoker

[Arsenal]

God, why does everyone say this? You didn't fucking play MM in Goblins, you just stopped playing Goblins. Just because MM was "colorless" doesn't mean every deck in Legacy wanted to run it or could utilize it as good as the blue decks did. MM pushed out Storm, Reanimator, Dredge, Goblins, Zoo, Elves, and several other decks as a result. You think blue decks are rampant now...it was much worse during that era. MM was attached to the hip to Brainstorm and the fact that you couldn't even play Storm anymore shows how terrible that format was.

I fully understand that people stopped playing Goblins, but for those that actually stuck with the deck, they actually did run MM in it.

[Megadeus]

That is a list of quite hateful cards. Please explain why they are listed. I have no idea

[DragoFireheart]

That is a list of quite hateful cards. Please explain why they are listed. I have no idea

It's because I am a hateful person and I wanted to express that hate by just listing magic cards.

[Tammit67]

:laugh:
This is a little secret about storm: if they don't play enough hate cards, you kill them. I've never seen so few cannonists and goddock teegs in tournaments in my 4 year long storm career as during that era :smile:.

That's true, mostly because they didn't need them.

"Hey, do I need to force this initial dark ritual to prevent him from casting his discard or can I safely wait for the bomb since he doesn't have the discard? Herp derp it doesn't matter since mental misstep makes the decision tree trivial!"

And now they have snapcaster for extra autopilot

[catmint]

MM and snapcaster would team up ... juhuu.
Basically means you start every blue deck with the same 12 cards instead of the same 8 we have now.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Unban MM and my blade list is pre - fabricated. I would have like 3-4 slots that I actually got to choose.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

Unban MM and my blade list is pre - fabricated. I would have like 3-4 slots that I actually got to choose.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I would cut FoW immediately. Thoughtseize, Misstep, Snare, rape the format

[DragoFireheart]

I would cut FoW immediately. Thoughtseize, Misstep, Snare, rape the format

But why? FoW/MMS/Seize is superior. Snare is kinda narrow and doesn't hit the really important stuff.

Snare should be used though. Sideboard material.

[alphastryk]

God, why does everyone say this? You didn't fucking play MM in Goblins, you just stopped playing Goblins. Just because MM was "colorless" doesn't mean every deck in Legacy wanted to run it or could utilize it as good as the blue decks did. MM pushed out Storm, Reanimator, Dredge, Goblins, Zoo, Elves, and several other decks as a result. You think blue decks are rampant now...it was much worse during that era. MM was attached to the hip to Brainstorm and the fact that you couldn't even play Storm anymore shows how terrible that format was.

Not quite. Reanimator at the time was the strongest it has been since Mystical was banned. The hate cards were worse and you had 8 hard counters.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mental Misstep was great in Goblins and Zoo, actually. Death and Taxes would probably play it.

You have to remember that markets and metagames are not actually efficient, people were unnecessarily reluctant to pack MM into non-blue decks. This was a mistake though. MM was good in almost everything. In Legacy it was basically obligatory and if your deck couldn't for some reason fit it, your deck probably sucked.

[Wilkin]

Mental Misstep was great in Goblins and Zoo, actually. Death and Taxes would probably play it.

You have to remember that markets and metagames are not actually efficient, people were unnecessarily reluctant to pack MM into non-blue decks. This was a mistake though. MM was good in almost everything. In Legacy it was basically obligatory and if your deck couldn't for some reason fit it, your deck probably sucked.

Agree here. Especially about goblins. I should have switched to goblins during that time.....
1. Because of Mental Misstep, combo decks were on their way down and durdly control up. That was ripe for Goblins to clean house.
2. Sure Misstep could counter your lackey but Misstep could also counter their bolt on your lackey.

I hope they don't unban Misstep. Man, Combo decks are hurting as it is already. Plus I hate playing against pure control decks.

[catmint]

LOL.... IBA, I remember you claiming that Zoo will benefit most when MM was spoiled and you still seem to hold on to that thought. Fact is MM was best in blue decks because their strategies are more synergistic with counterspells compared to Zoo and Goblins which lose some of their raw power by running a counterspell. NO RUG and UW Stoneblade absolutely dominated the format crushing Goblins and Zoo. To be fair: To really test IBA's claim about non blue creature decks getting better with MM we would have had to run the whole show without Batterskull.

[rxavage]

God, why does everyone say this? You didn't fucking play MM in Goblins, you just stopped playing Goblins. Just because MM was "colorless" doesn't mean every deck in Legacy wanted to run it or could utilize it as good as the blue decks did. MM pushed out Storm, Reanimator, Dredge, Goblins, Zoo, Elves, and several other decks as a result. You think blue decks are rampant now...it was much worse during that era. MM was attached to the hip to Brainstorm and the fact that you couldn't even play Storm anymore shows how terrible that format was.

Reanimator and Dredge did extremely well during MM era, Zoo also saw a decent amount of success.

[Barook]

Just because some random dude wrote an article for SCG doesn't mean unbanning MM is okay - at all.

1. The main reason of it being mandatory isn't gone and will never go away.
2. It boosts blue decks even further and we already have a ridiculous amout of blue decks in format.
3. Snapcaster exists now.

[Julian23]

But I don't think It's a fun card and it doesn't open up any new decks or archytypes

Deedstill, NO RUG. These decks were insanely powerful during that era. If you didn't recognize these decks during the MM era, you were probably not going deep enough.

I would also rather see MM stay banned (and honestly, it will stay banned) but not acknowledging said decks is a mistake.

[Dia_Bot]

Deedstill, NO RUG. These decks were insanely powerful during that era. If you didn't recognize these decks during the MM era, you were probably not going deep enough.

I would also rather see MM stay banned (and honestly, it will stay banned) but not acknowledging said decks is a mistake.

I must admit you are right. I somehow totally forgot about those decks when making that statement. The "not fun" part however stays true.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Mental Misstep greatly reduced format diversity while forcing decks to run it as a 4-of (lol Goblins) just to have a fightning chance. It was certainly banworthy.

I thought Dia_Bot meant Mind's Desire.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I thought Dia_Bot meant Mind's Desire.

I'm pretty sure Goblin's Desire would break the format wide open.

[Arsenal]

I thought Dia_Bot meant Mind's Desire.

The two Mental Misstep posts immediately preceeding Dia_Bot's "it would be safe to unban" post led me to believe Dia_Bot was referring to Mental Misstep. If he was referring to Mind's Desire, I apologize.

[FTW]

I hope they don't unban Misstep. Man, Combo decks are hurting as it is already. Plus I hate playing against pure control decks.

I hope they don't unban it because Combo decks that win by giving you 4/4 Titans are stupid.

[Dihensoeur]

I hope they don't unban it because Combo decks that win by giving you 4/4 Titans are stupid.
And combo.deck that put overwhelming creatures/enchantment for only 3 T2 it's not stupid?

[Megadeus]

It's funny how legacy players defend the format by saying that it is fun and interactive and not broken, then go on the internet and bitch about how combo decks are broken.

[Zilla]

It's funny how legacy players defend the format by saying that it is fun and interactive and not broken, then go on the internet and bitch about how combo decks are broken.
I could be wrong, but I think the prevailing sentiment is that Legacy is fun because it's both interactive and broken. That's what sets it apart from every other format.

[FieryBalrog]

14 of top 16 decks at SCG tonight were Brainstorm decks. Fwiw.

So, business as usual, then.

[jrw1985]

Brainstorm

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I could be wrong, but I think the prevailing sentiment is that Legacy is fun because it's both interactive and broken. That's what sets it apart from every other format.

This. This is how I feel about it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[testing32]

This. This is how I feel about it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

You don't like running Gray Ogres and Hill Giants into each other while casting terror when a Serra Angel shows up?

[Darkenslight]

You don't like running Gray Ogres and Hill Giants into each other while casting terror when a Serra Angel shows up?

OF course not - that's far too vanilla! IF we're not cheating into play giant spaghetti monsters and Demons that refill your hand, we're making Battering Germs and pointy sticks of doom, with the one thing you can't really stop driving a truck whilst pointing said stick at your face. OR you're drowing in horror, being ambushed in the hills and being smote by a stroke of genius. Or we unleash the fury of brain-melting therapy whilst bloodying elves and giant monsters.

Ogres and Giants running into one another whilst an Angel recoils in terror is just...meh, when compared to that.

[twndomn]

I could be wrong, but I think the prevailing sentiment is that Legacy is fun because it's both interactive and broken. That's what sets it apart from every other format.

Yes, allow me to rephrase: Legacy is fun because it's constantly innovating, occasionally interactive, when it's not, often perceived as broken. Currently meta:
TNN decks > Combo decks, Loam decks > TNN decks, Combo decks > Loam decks.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ogres and Giants running into one another whilst an Angel recoils in terror is just...meh, when compared to that.
I'd love to play this. Sadly, not even Limited is about Gray Ogres and such, as all the new creatures are complicated, or even if they are (nigh) vanilla, they somehow suck. Or they are not nice.And you know, Modern frame...

I even wanted to build an all-4thEd EDH, but as there's no one to play such crap with, and moreover I don't like EDH too much, I abstained.

[GoblinZ]

You don't like running Gray Ogres and Hill Giants into each other while casting terror when a Serra Angel shows up?

I think this is much better than people smashing each other with TNN...Actually I miss the old day, there was no tnn, no goyf...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Nostalgia is less useful than another hole in my head. I personally hated playing with crap like Fledgling Dragon.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[DragoFireheart]

I think this is much better than people smashing each other with TNN...Actually I miss the old day, there was no tnn, no goyf...

I don't miss those days. I love my broken magic that is kept in check by other broken magic.

Ironically, it's those old cards that are most broken (power nine, etc).

[Lord Seth]

Just because some random dude wrote an article for SCG doesn't mean unbanning MM is okay - at all.

1. The main reason of it being mandatory isn't gone and will never go away.
2. It boosts blue decks even further and we already have a ridiculous amout of blue decks in format.
3. Snapcaster exists now.This is something that needs to be especially stressed. Snapcaster Mage basically takes the problems Mental Misstep created and makes them even worse. Mental Misstep powered up Blue too much? Well, now there's a card that's amazing with Mental Misstep and only available to Blue decks.

[rufus]

I'd consider Mental Misstep if they errata it to:


Counter target blue spell with converted mana cost 1.

[sdematt]

So say we live in a world where everyone at Wizards listens to all the people who say Brainstorm gets banned. I don't want to live in that format. My deck would just be TOO good. Just saying.

-Matt

[Arsenal]

Tourney data through 1-26-14 has been updated on thecouncil and TNN decks are #1, #2, #3. I'm still waiting for all this "adaptation" that you pro-TNN people have been talking about since mid-October 2013.

[testing32]

Tourney data through 1-26-14 has been updated on thecouncil and TNN decks are #1, #2, #3. I'm still waiting for all this "adaptation" that you pro-TNN people have been talking about since mid-October 2013.

And brainstorm decks are 6 of the top 7 and 10 of the top 13. Are you sure you're complaining about the right card?

edit: http://www.tcdecks.net/mostplayedcards.php

TNN is the 20th most played card. Brainstorm has been #1 for at least the last 4 years, usually by a wide margin. In fact, stoneforge mystic is #7 on that list.

I could rewrite your statement: Tourney data through 1-26-14 has been updated on thecouncil and SFM decks are #1, #2, #3 and #4

[Erdvermampfa]

After all, I find TNN less threatening then I thought it would actually turn out. Sure, it forces you to adapt to it in your card choices, especially in your removal, but at the end of the day it's bearable. What's miserable is that it further restricts you in your design space, because it's yet another significant player of the metagame that you have to take into account, thus further forcing to resort to certain cards that can deal with it. It's somewhat similar to Show&Tell, Stormcombo, Planeswalkers, because their bare existence obliges you to have an answer to them, which is the same case with TNN.

Also, please don't start the Brainstorm discussion again. If one thing has become clear over the years, it's that Brainstorm won't ever be banned, for the simple reason that it's the main incentive to play the format.

[DragoFireheart]

And brainstorm decks are 6 of the top 7 and 10 of the top 13. Are you sure you're complaining about the right card?

edit: http://www.tcdecks.net/mostplayedcards.php

TNN is the 20th most played card. Brainstorm has been #1 for at least the last 4 years, usually by a wide margin. In fact, stoneforge mystic is #7 on that list.

I could rewrite your statement: Tourney data through 1-26-14 has been updated on thecouncil and SFM decks are #1, #2, #3 and #4

Last time I checked, I can't turn my Brainstorm sideways to win the game.

[Arsenal]

And brainstorm decks are 6 of the top 7 and 10 of the top 13. Are you sure you're complaining about the right card?

edit: http://www.tcdecks.net/mostplayedcards.php

TNN is the 20th most played card. Brainstorm has been #1 for at least the last 4 years, usually by a wide margin. In fact, stoneforge mystic is #7 on that list.

I could rewrite your statement: Tourney data through 1-26-14 has been updated on thecouncil and SFM decks are #1, #2, #3 and #4

I don't really care how played a card is, I care about format diversity. Since November 1st, 2013, the format's diversity has been reduced. I have provided pages upon pages of data to confirm that. I have yet to see anyone provide data that refutes my position.

[DragoFireheart]

I have yet to see anyone provide data that refutes my position.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?23-Decks-to-Beat

FORMAT DIVERSITY!

[testing32]

I don't really care how played a card is, I care about format diversity. Since November 1st, 2013, the format's diversity has been reduced. I have provided pages upon pages of data to confirm that. I have yet to see anyone provide data that refutes my position.

I would argue that brainstorm reduces the formats diversity much more than TNN does.

[DragoFireheart]

I would argue that brainstorm reduces the formats diversity much more than TNN does.

You could argue that.

Just like the 3249 people before you did!

[Arsenal]

I would argue that brainstorm reduces the formats diversity much more than TNN does.

Calling Patriot and Sneak & Show "Brainstorm decks" is like calling RUG Delver and Lands "Wasteland decks". And decks not running Brainstorm have done fine historically (until power creep occurs); Zoo in 2011 before Delver of Secrets, Jund in 2013 before TNN, Maverick in 2012/13, Death & Taxes currently, etc.

[testing32]

You could argue that.

Just like the 3249 people before you did!

I know, it's a pointless exercise. But really this whole thread is.

It does seems misplaced to complain about TNN, just because it's new, when it is far from the most egregious offender. I want to be able to play a plateau or Rock again without feeling bad about myself.

[Higgs]

I've seen people compare Brainstorm to Ancestral Recall. But we have a thread here comparing Stoneforge Mystic to Oath of Druids so I guess some people just have wild imaginations.

[Arsenal]

I know, it's a pointless exercise. But really this whole thread is.

It does seems misplaced to complain about TNN, just because it's new, when it is far from the most egregious offender. I want to be able to play a plateau or Rock again without feeling bad about myself.

But Brainstorm didn't kill Plateau (Zoo), Delver of Secrets did. Pre-Delver, Zoo was top tier. Rock was never that good as Jund was/is just better positioned against more of the format, Brainstorm certainly has nothing to do with Rock languishing in tier 2 since forever. You can still play Rock and be just as competitive now as you would've been 3-5 years ago.

[Zombie]

I've seen people compare Brainstorm to Ancestral Recall. But we have a thread here comparing Stoneforge Mystic to Oath of Druids so I guess some people just have wild imaginations.

Well, I'm playing Tinker, Academy and Ancestral in one deck, so I guess...?

[testing32]

But Brainstorm didn't kill Plateau (Zoo), Delver of Secrets did. Pre-Delver, Zoo was top tier. Rock was never that good as Jund was/is just better positioned against more of the format, Brainstorm certainly has nothing to do with Rock languishing in tier 2 since forever. You can still play Rock and be just as competitive now as you would've been 3-5 years ago.

I disagree. Right before New Phyrexia, Rock went back to back finals in SCG Opens while Jund wasn't even a deck.

Brainstorm has everything to do with non-blue midrange and aggro decks being tier two.

[Lemnear]

Well, I'm playing Tinker, Academy and Ancestral in one deck, so I guess...?

Luv ya man :)

[Arsenal]

I disagree. Right before New Phyrexia, Rock went back to back finals in SCG Opens while Jund wasn't even a deck.

Brainstorm has everything to do with non-blue midrange and aggro decks being tier two.

Jund wasn't a deck until RTR came out, I thought it was obvious that I was talking about BGx Midrange decks post-RTR. Sure, before Jund was a deck, I suppose that Rock would have to be better than a deck that didn't exist.

Also, non-blue midrange and aggro decks have done just fine historically. Zoo, Maverick, Jund, D&T, etc. All of these decks were/are top tier 1 at one time and Brainstorm wasn't the reason why any of them fell off the map, it was power creep in the form of Delver of Secrets (Zoo), True-Name Nemesis (Jund), etc.

If Jund was able to average 4th place from Jan-Oct 2013 while Brainstorm was in the format, why did it drop down to a 16th place average from Nov 2013-Jan 2014 while Brainstorm was still in the format? What did Brainstorm do in that October to November timeframe that made Jund tier 2?

[testing32]

Jund wasn't a deck until RTR came out, I thought it was obvious that I was talking about BGx Midrange decks post-RTR. Sure, before Jund was a deck, I suppose that Rock would have to be better than a deck that didn't exist.

Also, non-blue midrange and aggro decks have done just fine historically. Zoo, Maverick, Jund, D&T, etc. All of these decks were/are top tier 1 at one time and Brainstorm wasn't the reason why any of them fell off the map, it was power creep in the form of Delver of Secrets (Zoo), True-Name Nemesis (Jund), etc.

If Jund was able to average 4th place from Jan-Oct 2013 while Brainstorm was in the format, why did it drop down to a 16th place average from Nov 2013-Jan 2014 while Brainstorm was still in the format? What did Brainstorm do in that October to November timeframe that made Jund tier 2?

Nobody is disagreeing with you that TNN is the reason that Jund is gone. I liked the deck too but that is what happens when new, better cards are printed. Esper and goblins went away after deathrite got printed. It happens almost every time a legacy playable is printed. You can't ban TNN then declare balance restored as the blue dominance continues.

I like the poll with this thread. It gives perspective. At one time 20% of people thought goyf should get the axe.

edit - it's very rare that you can stick with your pet deck forever. they die and you need to move on (RIP folk). Your posts sound like stage 2 of the grieving process.

edit 2 - Most people here have lost. I know I have (Rock, Maverick). I know it might be too soon for this but.. when you feel up for it you might want to check out the Team America thread. I know it's not Jund but... you still get to play hymn, drs, goyf and liliana.

[Higgs]

Well, I'm playing Tinker, Academy and Ancestral in one deck, so I guess...?

I guess you are playing Vintage and not Legacy?

[Arsenal]

Nobody is disagreeing with you that TNN is the reason that Jund is gone. I liked the deck too but that is what happens when new, better cards are printed. Esper and goblins went away after deathrite got printed. It happens almost every time a legacy playable is printed. You can't ban TNN then declare balance restored as the blue dominance continues.

I like the poll with this thread. It gives perspective. At one time 20% of people thought goyf should get the axe.

edit - it's very rare that you can stick with your pet deck forever. they die and you need to move on (RIP folk). Your posts sound like stage 2 of the grieving process.


Brainstorm has everything to do with non-blue midrange and aggro decks being tier two.

You just stated that Brainstorm is the reason non-blue midrange is tier 2. Now you state that TNN is the reason non-blue midrange (Jund) is tier 2? Which is it? Also, the "blue dominance" you think was happening pre-TNN just wasn't occurring according to thecouncil's data. Jund was 4th place for virtually the entire year, Maverick averaged a 9th place finish for Jan-Nov 2013. D&T is still top tier.

Also, if UW Stoneblade is considered a "pet deck", then yeah, I'm sad that it's only #2 instead of #1 in the meta.

[testing32]

You just stated that Brainstorm is the reason non-blue midrange is tier 2. Now you state that TNN is the reason non-blue midrange (Jund) is tier 2? Which is it?

Also, if UW Stoneblade is considered a "pet deck", then yeah, I'm sad that it's only #3 instead of #1 in the meta.

The two are not mutually exclusive for bringing jund back.

[Arsenal]

The two are not mutually exclusive for bringing jund back.

How was Maverick able to be in the top 3 for what seemed to be all of 2012 while Brainstorm existed? Maverick was super top tier while Brainstorm was in the format. Again, this is another example of a non-blue midrange deck that was top tier despite your claim that Brainstorm has/had everything to do with non-blue midrange and aggro decks being tier 2.

[DragoFireheart]

Ironically, it's creatures, not Brainstorm, that pushed out non-blue decks.

Think about that for a second. Blue CREATURES. Some people are ignoring the Elephant in the room...

[Lemnear]

I guess you are playing Vintage and not Legacy?

No, he plays Natural Order, Gaea's Cradle and Glimpse of Nature

[Arsenal]

Ironically, it's creatures, not Brainstorm, that pushed out non-blue decks.

Think about that for a second. Blue CREATURES. Some people are ignoring the Elephant in the room...

This is what I've been saying the last two pages; Delver of Secrets + TNN are the main reasons non-blue midrange and aggro died. I've even provided data to back up my claims. And yet, Brainstorm is the reason why Zoo died. Brainstorm is the reason Jund died. Brainstorm is the reason Maverick died. lolwut?

[PirateKing]

You can't really debate on how the dominance of Brainstorm is effecting the metagame using data compiled in 2013-20014. If you want to argue what the spring of 1994 meta was like, versus now, then you can single out Brainstorm. Realistically though, we're talking about Brainstorm & fetch land, so to be fair, we should use data from before the summer of 2002 and see what a pre-Brainstorm meta looked like. But since all these predate Legacy as a format, any data presented reflecting the use of Brainstorm is just background radiation, and can't be singled out as a reason for anything happening.

[HSCK]

You just stated that Brainstorm is the reason non-blue midrange is tier 2. Now you state that TNN is the reason non-blue midrange (Jund) is tier 2? Which is it? Also, the "blue dominance" you think was happening pre-TNN just wasn't occurring according to thecouncil's data. Jund was 4th place for virtually the entire year, Maverick averaged a 9th place finish for Jan-Nov 2013. D&T is still top tier.

Also, if UW Stoneblade is considered a "pet deck", then yeah, I'm sad that it's only #3 instead of #1 in the meta.


Maybe Maverick just isn't good, and stop using TC data with its sub-50 player tournaments, it's skewing results. It'd be far more credible if Maverick was a top tier deck on the open circuit or bigger European tourneys. Maverick's been dead for a long time now, at least 8 months, it's not TNN.

[Arsenal]

Maybe Maverick just isn't good, and stop using TC data with its sub-50 player tournaments, it's skewing results. It'd be far more credible if Maverick was a top tier deck on the open circuit or bigger European tourneys. Maverick's been dead for a long time now, at least 8 months, it's not TNN.

HSCK, you are the only person that doesn't want to use thecouncil's data for reasons I do not understand. Everyone in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread agreed to use thecouncil's data. This very website uses thecouncil's data for it's DTB selection (with a 33 player floor).

The website you provided me (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/december-2013-legacy-metagame-analysis/) doesn't update frequently enough (his last post was 12-4-13) and it uses old data, citing stuff like SCG Dallas? That tourney happened on November 10, 2013. BOM Last 3 Bye Trial? That happened on November 1st, 2013. Until you provide me with a website as comprehensive and frequently updated as thecouncil (daily updates > 12-4-13 post analysing November 1st, 2013 data), I will continue to use thecouncil for all of my data referencing needs. Thanks for the old data though, that really helps.

[Higgs]

No, he plays Natural Order, Gaea's Cradle and Glimpse of Nature

He plays Tinker in Elves?

Ninja edit: got it. Good one :)

[FTW]

I've seen people compare Brainstorm to Ancestral Recall. But we have a thread here comparing Stoneforge Mystic to Oath of Druids so I guess some people just have wild imaginations.

That's a comparison LSV made in a video. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's functionally a 2cc tutor-engine tool splashable in blue decks (1X) that gives the control strategy much better game against aggro and puts a fatty or whatever else you want into play on turn 3. Obviously there are huge differences though, and Stoneforge is playable in way more than just blue decks, so I think LSV's analogy was narrow.

[FTW]

No, he plays Natural Order, Gaea's Cradle and Glimpse of Nature

I thought he played Goblin Matron, Skirk Prospector and Goblin Ringleader

[Lemnear]

I thought he played Goblin Matron, Skirk Prospector and Goblin Ringleader

Still playing green creatures ... so what? ;D

[DragoFireheart]

, and stop using TC data with its sub-50 player tournaments, it's skewing results.

Ok, I'll stop using The Source then.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection


So how are decks selected for the DTBF?

Rather than relying on arbitrary selection or decision-making based on conjecture which can be tainted by personal bias, decks are selected for the DTBF based on their performance at recent, large, competitive Legacy tournaments. Decks which make up a very large portion of the metagame are considered DTB's. Decks which are less prevalent but appear multiple times are considered DTW's. Archetypes which appear multiple times are considered ATW's.

The data used for selection is based upon Top 8's from the most recent Legacy tournaments with 33 or more players. European, Japanese, and other non-American tournament data is included in this process, because there is a thriving, well-developed Legacy community in places other than America, and their results are relevant.

For the sake of currency and relevance, the DTBF contents will be revised on the first of every month. The data from the most recent ten tournaments will replace the previous data.

[HSCK]

HSCK, you are the only person that doesn't want to use thecouncil's data for reasons I do not understand. Everyone in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread agreed to use thecouncil's data. This very website uses thecouncil's data for it's DTB selection (with a 36 player floor).

The website you provided me (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/december-2013-legacy-metagame-analysis/) doesn't update frequently enough (his last post was 12-4-13) and it uses old data, citing stuff like SCG Dallas? That tourney happened on November 10, 2013. BOM Last 3 Bye Trial? That happened on November 1st, 2013. Until you provide me with a website as comprehensive and frequently updated as thecouncil (daily updates > 12-4-13 post analysing November 1st, 2013 data), I will continue to use thecouncil for all of my data referencing needs. Thanks for the old data though, that really helps.



Because 36 player floors are still too small. I don't think anything under 50 is really that useful, and the most useful data's going to come from Opens or BoM type tournaments, at which Maverick has been a non-factor for a long time. So averaging 9th with your data is really misleading, because it didn't perform well at all at important tournaments. I'm fine with TC data...if it excludes random 19-50 person tourneys.

[Arsenal]

Because 36 player floors are still too small. I don't think anything under 50 is really that useful, and the most useful data's going to come from Opens or BoM type tournaments, at which Maverick has been a non-factor for a long time. So averaging 9th with your data is really misleading, because it didn't perform well at all at important tournaments. I'm fine with TC data...if it excludes random 19-50 person tourneys.

But I'm not misleading anyone. I'm citing my source and applying the same data analysis to all decks. If you don't think thecouncil is a good source for data, fine, keep using Bob's outdated and largely irrelevant blog post. But don't come in here everytime I mention "Maverick" and "thecouncil" and try to say that I'm misleading people; I don't control what the raw data is or where it comes from nor do I apply varying standards to decks when analyzing the data.

And even if what you say is true, a deck that doesn't do well at majors (pretty sure Maverick placed top 8 in BOM), but dominates the mid-sized tourneys sounds very much like a fringe top 10 deck to me.

[Nielsie]

I am so sick of reading: Brainstorm can't be banned because it's why we play Legacy in the first place.

Maybe that is true for you but this ain't about your pet-card. Brainstorm makes blue decks too consistent and this wasn't so much of a problem before because hand-shaping alone doesn't win you games, you also need the tools to win the game. Because blue got creatures like Delver and TNN it kind of has everything all the other colors stand for and it has more then enough tools to win.

I think banning Brainstorm is an option. Maybe not a popular one at first but I am starting to get sick of "play blue or go home". Banning Brainstorm would be a first step into a more versatile and colored meta-game. Banning Brainstorm would hit decks as Show and Tell or Blade/TNN decks without having to ban TNN or S&T.

If Brainstorm is off-limits than blue needs to be nerfed somewhere else, obvious place is TNN. This card only made things worse, almost everyone that is just a little bit honest, agrees the card isn't fun at all. So why put up with this shit. Ban the thing and go back to the meta before november 1. It wasn't a very bad meta. Ok, Brainstorm and blue was everywhere but it wasn't as bad as it is now.

Think about this for a moment: two great players, Max Tietze and Jim Davis have played with Goblins the last few years. Now they are converts to the "Play blue or go home" camp because they want to win and don't see any other option but blue. These are just two players, imagine how many more Tietze's and Davis's there are right now!

[HSCK]

But I'm not misleading anyone. I'm citing my source and applying the same data analysis to all decks. If you don't think thecouncil is a good source for data, fine, keep using Bob's outdated and largely irrelevant blog post. But don't come in here everytime I mention "Maverick" and "thecouncil" and try to say that I'm misleading people; I don't control what the raw data is or where it comes from nor do I apply varying standards to decks when analyzing the data.

And even if what you say is true, a deck that doesn't do well at majors (pretty sure Maverick placed top 8 in BOM), but dominates the mid-sized tourneys sounds very much like a fringe top 10 deck to me.



Because it was already dead before November 1st, the proof is there. Winning FNM sized Legacy tournaments doesn't mean squat really. I could just have Curio Cavern's results posted to TC for some real data considering it's by far the best place to play Legacy in the States. If a deck doesn't perform well at big tourneys how good can it actually be over the span of 8-9 months? It means it's probably not, TNN didn't kill Maverick, it was already dead.

[Arsenal]

Because it was already dead before November 1st, the proof is there. Winning FNM sized Legacy tournaments doesn't mean squat really. I could just have Curio Cavern's results posted to TC for some real data considering it's by far the best place to play Legacy in the States. If a deck doesn't perform well at big tourneys how good can it actually be over the span of 8-9 months? It means it's probably not, TNN didn't kill Maverick, it was already dead.

You don't like thecouncil, we get it. You think the only tourneys that matter are SCG Opens and BOM, we get it.

You keep on using Bob's outdated and irrelevant data from an old blog post, that's fine with me. I'm going to continue using thecouncil's data, just like almost everyone else does on these boards + this own website uses, until a more comprehensive and frequently updated website replaces thecouncil. I'll continue to cite Maverick's 9th place average from Jan-Nov 2013 as the data allows me to do such. Thanks for playing.

[HSCK]

You're more than welcome to think Maverick is playable, but for people attending real tournaments, it's not, and hasn't been for a long time. I don't understand this quest to prove it was a good deck or is a good deck. Things go in and out all the time, and Maverick's just been out. Winning an FNM is great, but don't think the results of that FNM are going to win you a PTQ or an Open. It's much better for players to aim to play decks that win in larger fields and its proof of power and consistency. In terms of the B/R list, if a deck is performing too well it needs to be looked at. The last few weeks of Open data have showed a tremendous amount of diversity which is a sign of a good format. Maybe Maverick with Sylvan Basilisk would cure your ills. Decay proof, Bolt proof, and TNN can't block it profitably either.

[nedleeds]

Self fulfilling prophecy is self fulfilling.

[Lord Seth]

For whatever it's worth, Punishing Maverick did get a Top 8 finish at the Bazaar of Moxen.

[Feaor]

You're more than welcome to think Maverick is playable, but for people attending real tournaments, it's not, and hasn't been for a long time. I don't understand this quest to prove it was a good deck or is a good deck. Things go in and out all the time, and Maverick's just been out. Winning an FNM is great, but don't think the results of that FNM are going to win you a PTQ or an Open. It's much better for players to aim to play decks that win in larger fields and its proof of power and consistency. In terms of the B/R list, if a deck is performing too well it needs to be looked at. The last few weeks of Open data have showed a tremendous amount of diversity which is a sign of a good format. Maybe Maverick with Sylvan Basilisk would cure your ills. Decay proof, Bolt proof, and TNN can't block it profitably either.

0/10, Obvious Troll is Obvious. I suggest just ignoring the trolls who completely ignore any sort of actual data thats put in front of them. FWIW, Maverick actually was in the DTB forum quite recently, I think maybe last month? Clearly a dead deck :rolleyes:

[nedleeds]

If nobody plays a deck because the internet instructs them not to then the number of placements will dwindle. 90% of the people who play SCGs / GPs are just reading whatever the internet has to offer from their favorite acronym writer, copying a 75 that they can afford and heading off to the event. Nothing wrong with that, but it's how it is. People speaking in absolutes like "G/w CAN'T WIN ANYTHING" just sound stupid.

[Arsenal]

HSCK, your insistence on not acknowledging thecouncil's data is quite puzzling. I'm not quite sure why you believe that the only relevant tourney data comes from SCG Opens and BoM. You do understand that for every 1 SCG Open (129+) there are probably 10 mid-sized tourneys (30-50+), right? I mean, when you're talking about what the overall meta looks like, narrowing your pool of data to just 129+ player tourneys gives you an incredibly small sample size to draw any conclusions from.

You claim that I'm "skewing the data" by including all results (regardless of tourney size, I count it) yet you believe that cherry picking a handful of large tourneys out of dozens and dozens gives you a more accurate meta representation? Are you being serious?

[FTW]

Because 36 player floors are still too small. I don't think anything under 50 is really that useful, and the most useful data's going to come from Opens or BoM type tournaments, at which Maverick has been a non-factor for a long time. So averaging 9th with your data is really misleading, because it didn't perform well at all at important tournaments. I'm fine with TC data...if it excludes random 19-50 person tourneys.

Why is 50 a better floor than 36? You have to draw a cut-off somewhere. Do you have rationale for 50 being "big enough" and 36 "not big enough", or does the 0 just look really sexy with all its curves but lack of love handles? Why not set the floor higher and count only SCGs, GPs, etc.? Or at least 65 to have min. 7 rounds?

How is a 6-round 51-man tourney better data than a 6-man 45-man tourney? How is the 6-round 45-man tourney as poor data as a 19-man event, barely bigger than a 4-round 16-man where half top8. I think a floor based on a functional value is better than one based on a nice round number.


Possible reasons for 36:
-33+ means at least 6 rounds and <25% top 8.
-In probability and statistics, with n>30 you can generalize from the Binomial distribution to a Normal distribution (i.e. sample size is big enough to smooth out to a bell curve shape, except for rare events)

Taking top8 finish from a 36-man seems fine to me. Taking top16 (or even 9th place, since it's just based on tiebreakers) from 36-man events does seem sketchier.

What you could do is, instead of looking at final placing in a mid-sized event like that, just extract their match records against other top decks across all those events and match them up.
(e.g. Jund was X-Y vs Esperblade, A-B against RUG, etc. )
That might be a more meaningful extrapolation of data from smaller events, where the individual match results are useful to know but event placing is more subject to variance.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I am so sick of reading: Brainstorm can't be banned because it's why we play Legacy in the first place.

Maybe that is true for you but this ain't about your pet-card. Brainstorm makes blue decks too consistent and this wasn't so much of a problem before because hand-shaping alone doesn't win you games, you also need the tools to win the game. Because blue got creatures like Delver and TNN it kind of has everything all the other colors stand for and it has more then enough tools to win.
Obviously the real offenders are TNN and Delver, not BS. You even wrote it: "hand-shaping alone doesn't win you games, you also need the tools to win the game" and this leads me to question: if you'd have the power, would you rather ban BS (to stop unmulligans and to open space for future tools to win the game), or would you rather ban the Delver and TNN (the overpowered tools) and kept BS alive.
Both approaches are valid, imho. If BS is too powerful that it limits future design, makes it too easy to dig for bombs, or w/e, then it should get the axe. Otoh, library manipulation is blue's domain.
If TNN and Delver break the color pie by the fact that they are too good for blue threats, they might be banned. Otoh, this doesn't solve the trouble of future broken cards.




I think banning Brainstorm is an option. Maybe not a popular one at first but I am starting to get sick of "play blue or go home". Banning Brainstorm would be a first step into a more versatile and colored meta-game. Banning Brainstorm would hit decks as Show and Tell or Blade/TNN decks without having to ban TNN or S&T.
I would be sad if WotC bans BS, esp. as I just got my Chinese ones. But I could live with the fact of ban.
The trouble with blue and Legacy is that library manipulation (and raw card draw) are the most important aspects of game and they are quite limited to blue. With every new set and every new Commander, the pool of broekn cards will be bigger and bigger, unil it may come to the point where BS would be too powerful (see Vintage). Is it yet? IDK...
Maybe it'll be good to iprove other colors and give them library manipulation and/or card selection, call it as you wish. But if this would lead to even more bomby format... I once again don't know.



If Brainstorm is off-limits than blue needs to be nerfed somewhere else, obvious place is TNN. This card only made things worse, almost everyone that is just a little bit honest, agrees the card isn't fun at all. So why put up with this shit. Ban the thing and go back to the meta before november 1. It wasn't a very bad meta. Ok, Brainstorm and blue was everywhere but it wasn't as bad as it is now.
Yep. But R&D (or Maro or whoever responsible) should also consider their design patterns. It's not like they're really abstemious when it comes to (mainly blue) overpowered crap.



Think about this for a moment: two great players, Max Tietze and Jim Davis have played with Goblins the last few years. Now they are converts to the "Play blue or go home" camp because they want to win and don't see any other option but blue. These are just two players, imagine how many more Tietze's and Davis's there are right now!
I'd say there are some more of them... :-(

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Obviously the real offenders are Serra Angel and Millstone, not Ancestral Recall. You even wrote it: "hand-shaping alone doesn't win you games, you also need the tools to win the game"

Interesting opinion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I understand that they won't ban Brainstorm because too many people will pitch a fit, but we should at least be honest and acknowledge that by all criteria we use to ban cards in a normal business order- unless you think the list has to be kept down to ten cards or something- Brainstorm should be banned. It is significantly better than a number of cards on the banned list that probably shouldn't come off.

[rufus]

...
The trouble with blue and Legacy is that library manipulation (and raw card draw) are the most important aspects of game and they are quite limited to blue. With every new set and every new Commander, the pool of broken cards will be bigger and bigger, unil it may come to the point where BS would be too powerful (see Vintage). Is it yet? IDK...

Blue also gets the best stack manipulation, and got some very strong fast creatures recently. R&D has serious blinders when it comes to blue.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Blue also gets the best stack manipulation, and got some very strong fast creatures recently. R&D has serious blinders when it comes to blue.

Three of the four best creatures in the format- Delver, TNN, and Griselbrand- are blue, and the fourth (Tarmogoyf) is played in blue decks and Jund and that's it afaict.

[Lemnear]

Three of the four best creatures in the format- Delver, TNN, and Griselbrand- are blue, and the fourth (Tarmogoyf) is played in blue decks and Jund and that's it afaict.

Would have listed SFM and DRS there too to get a relation and hammer the fact that all those are played in blue decks ... Whatever.



Blitz-Edit: Can we ban the first guy pointing out that Griselbrand is not blue and costing 3 mana total? Thanks.

[DragoFireheart]

Three of the four best creatures in the format- Delver, TNN, and Griselbrand- are blue, and the fourth (Tarmogoyf) is played in blue decks and Jund and that's it afaict.

In B/R Thread:

Blue = Blue
Green = Blue
Black = Blue

So DRS = Double Blue?

Also, I just learned today that Show and Tell is actually a creature card that is immune to Remove Soul. The more you know!

[Lemnear]

I would state, that all 1cc and 1x cards are, in fact, blue...


LOL

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think that Delver is Serra Angel, TNN is Millstone, and Brainstorm is Ancestral Recall. Also, Prozac combined with mescalin is the nuts.
Interesting opinion.

[FTW]

Three of the four best creatures in the format- Delver, TNN, and Griselbrand- are blue, and the fourth (Tarmogoyf) is played in blue decks and Jund and that's it afaict.

Of all the creatures in the "best creature" poll:

Stoneforge Mystic = Oath of Druids = blue
Griselbrand = blue
Tarmogoyf = blue
Delver of Secrets = blue
True Name I'm actually not that good = blue
Deathrite Shaman = 2nd best blue planeswalker, honorable mention on the "creature" list
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn = blue
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben = white
Dark Confidant = black
Hammerfist Giant = red

Of the non-blue ones, only one clearly wins in a bar fight.

WotC should either stop printing such good blue creatures or start printing more Hammerfist Giants

[Dice_Box]

Delver can be explained, TNN being blue? I have no idea.

Delver was made for modern. Simple. In Modern, blue is the worst colour. It is a splash colour for some decks and used in a few second tier control builds. So Wizards tried to buff it the way they buff decks these days. They gave it a creature. Not creative, but that's the way the game is now. They are pushing Tempo of the identity of choice for Modern Blue. The trickle down effect on legacy... Yea.

TNN on the other hand was just Wizards. Not sure what they where thinking.

As for Green=Blue being a joke, Goyf was "The best blue card in the game" for a dam long time. Black tends to go hand in hand with Blue as well. There is a good reason underground costs more that a play set of some other duals.

[Lord Seth]

If nobody plays a deck because the internet instructs them not to then the number of placements will dwindle. 90% of the people who play SCGs / GPs are just reading whatever the internet has to offer from their favorite acronym writer, copying a 75 that they can afford and heading off to the event.
I'm actually quite dubious about this. I'd expect that 90% of the people who play in those have maybe one or two decks and just play the one they actually have.


Delver can be explained, TNN being blue? I have no idea.

Delver was made for modern. Simple. In Modern, blue is the worst colour. It is a splash colour for some decks and used in a few second tier control builds. So Wizards tried to buff it the way they buff decks these days. They gave it a creature. Not creative, but that's the way the game is now. They are pushing Tempo of the identity of choice for Modern Blue. The trickle down effect on legacy... Yea.
Modern was created like one month before Innistrad came out. There is no freaking way Delver of Secrets was created to have any effect on Modern, because by that point the set was finalized and was being printed.

Not to mention that, at least looking at the Top 8 of the Pro Tour Philadelphia, Blue was the best color at the time in the format, with 6 decks in it having Blue in them. Black was the worst, having 0 decks in the Top 8.

[FTW]

Not to mention that, at least looking at the Top 8 of the Pro Tour Philadelphia, Blue was the best color at the time in the format, with 6 decks in it having Blue in them. Black was the worst, having 0 decks in the Top 8.

That's why they printed Delver. Blue needed a boost. Every Spike knows there should be blue cards in 8/8 top decks.

[Dice_Box]

I stand corrected.

Still I stand by my comments on black. In legacy, black is the colour that matters after blue.

[FTW]

I stand corrected.

Still I stand by my comments on black. In legacy, black is the colour that matters after blue.

Strong Legacy Black cards:
Dark Confidant
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Tombstalker
Deathrite Shaman
Liliana of the Veil
Griselbrand
Dismember
Abrupt Decay
Cabal Therapy
Hymn to Tourach
some degenerate combo enablers that would be banned in Modern either way

Subset of these legal in Modern:
Dark Confidant
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Tombstalker
Deathrite Shaman
Liliana of the Veil
Griselbrand
Dismember
Abrupt Decay

Yeah, Modern really got screwed on the black cards.

[Dice_Box]

FTW, why would I post "Underground (sea)" and "Legacy" If I was talking about black in modern?

[FTW]

FTW, why would I post "Underground (sea)" and "Legacy" If I was talking about black in modern?

It's a pain to cycle back and forth between pages.

You were talking about Blue in Modern. Black in modern was mentioned. I thought "my comments on black" also linked to the statement about black being worst in Modern, which was Lord Seth not you. Oops.

If it is worst in Modern, my point was that was a separate issue from the power level of black cards they are printing... most strong black cards in Legacy are also modern playable. New printings in black seem fine. Blue, however, needs a boost in neither Modern nor Legacy yet is strongly affected by the power level of new cards printed. WTF.

Standard is dominated by mono-blue aggro...

[Lord Seth]

It's a pain to cycle back and forth between pages.

You were talking about Blue in Modern. Black in modern was mentioned. I thought "my comments on black" also linked to the statement about black being worst in Modern, which was Lord Seth not you. Oops.
Then perhaps you should have read what I actually said, namely:
"Not to mention that, at least looking at the Top 8 of the Pro Tour Philadelphia, Blue was the best color at the time in the format, with 6 decks in it having Blue in them. Black was the worst, having 0 decks in the Top 8."

I mean, I kinda clearly said "at the time" and was talking about Pro Tour Philadelphia, which happened about a month after the format was created. Heck, 4 of the cards you listed (Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, and Griselbrand) weren't even released at that point.

[Feaor]

Not to mention that, at least looking at the Top 8 of the Pro Tour Philadelphia, Blue was the best color at the time in the format, with 6 decks in it having Blue in them. Black was the worst, having 0 decks in the Top 8.

To be fair, 7/8 decks were playing lands that tapped for Red and 8/8 decks were playing Red cards so I'd contend that Red was the best color at the start of Modern, but that's not particularly relevant to the Legacy B&R list.

In reality I think WotC just needs to print solid cards outside of Blue that are harder to play in Blue, they need to give more incentive to non-blue decks. Spirt of the Labyrinth is an awesome card in this respect because its an aggressive beater that punishes decks that try to be greedy by counting on cantrips to smooth their draws. However its symmetrical so you have to play it in a deck that can generate CA outside of drawing cards, hence it can't be played in the blue decks. Unfortunately I'm not sure it will make a huge splash at the moment because its extremely fragile with everyone and their mother playing Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Toxic Deluge, etc.

At the same time WotC needs to stop printing dumb pushed aggressive creatures in Blue like TNN and to a lesser extent Delver of Secrets. These cards basically fill a hole in Blue's power level since up until recently, Blue never got very many powerful aggressive creatures as that wasn't really in its part of the color pie.

Finally, I don't think that TNN is a good thing to have in Legacy in the long run, it may not have the pure results to be banned at the moment but I do think it will constrain the format eventually. I do see Non-Blue Midrange getting pushed out of the top tier since its very hard to beat both the fair decks and the unfair decks if you're not playing Blue. In addition I think TNN will also prevent new creature decks from rising up due to the splash hate from TNN hating other creature decks out.

[FTW]

Then perhaps you should have read what I actually said,

Yeah, what I meant was I'm not contesting anything you said. I was replying to a merger of the two comments that was a non-point that no one was making. I stand the point I tried to make. I think it's quite valid; it just doesn't contradict anyone else.

In a nut shell --> WotC should stop printing broken blue creatures

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Would have listed SFM and DRS there too to get a relation and hammer the fact that all those are played in blue decks ... Whatever.



Blitz-Edit: Can we ban the first guy pointing out that Griselbrand is not blue and costing 3 mana total? Thanks.

I support it.

Sometimes he costs BB or 1BB, although even then you're still mostly blue as a deck so.

[testing32]

It is significantly better than a number of cards on the banned list that probably shouldn't come off.

Lets see here, taking into account the number of decks brainstorm can be played in, brainstorm is better than: Black Vise, Channel (maybe), Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Flash (maybe), Mana Drain, Memory Jar, Mind Twist, Mind's Desire and Mystical Tutor.

[JPoJohnson]

Lets see here, taking into account the number of decks brainstorm can be played in, brainstorm is better than: Black Vise, Channel (maybe), Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Flash (maybe), Mana Drain, Memory Jar, Mind Twist, Mind's Desire and Mystical Tutor.

Although I dislike the phrase, there is really only one response that can be given to this post:

Lolwut?:eyebrow:

[testing32]

Although I dislike the phrase, there is really only one response that can be given to this post:

Lolwut?:eyebrow:

Where would you put it? I'm thinking same as mental misstep.

[Lord Seth]

To be fair, 7/8 decks were playing lands that tapped for Red and 8/8 decks were playing Red cards so I'd contend that Red was the best color at the start of Modern, but that's not particularly relevant to the Legacy B&R list.Blazing Shoal Infect played Red cards, but it had no intention of casting a single one of those I wouldn't count it as a Red deck. Though you're correct that there was more Red than Blue, with 7/8 of the decks actually planning to cast Red cards, so it probably would be fair to say that Red was the best, with Blue in second place, at least at that early point in the format.

[Dice_Box]

Lets see here, taking into account the number of decks brainstorm can be played in, brainstorm is better than: Black Vise, Channel (maybe), Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Flash (maybe), Mana Drain, Memory Jar, Mind Twist, Mind's Desire and Mystical Tutor.

Someone please sig this. I want a laugh like this every few days or so.

[TsumiBand]

Dude whatever, I want Frantic Search legal because I can go back to casting my favorite 4/4 Trampler for 2G EOT. Oh whatever okay it's better in combo lolol shhhh stfu

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Dude whatever, I want Frantic Search legal because I can go back to casting my favorite 4/4 Trampler for 2G EOT. Oh whatever okay it's better in combo lolol shhhh stfu

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Those days are over bro. I miss u/g madness probably more than most, but that deck is dead.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Patrunkenphat7]

I want to see the following unbanned:

Black Vise
Earthcraft
Frantic Search
Mana Drain
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Survival of the Fittest
Yawgmoth's Bargain

I honestly don't think any of these cards would "break" the format. Survival would absolutely NOT be dominant in this modern world of Legacy. Yawg Bargain gets the nod over Desire in the list because countermagic is just as effective against Bargain as it is against the current ANT builds. Mind's Desire, on the other hand, is way too difficult for non-black fair decks to reasonably interact with. It's sad that the cost of Mana Drain is so prohibitive, because that would be a very cool card in Legacy, especially with some of these strong combo cards coming off the list to balance things out.

[cheerios]

Unbanning mana drain will drive it's price up only. Cool card tho but I don't think it will be healthy for the format. Besides the price, people will just bitch about blue getting stronger.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Unbanning mana drain will drive it's price up only. Cool card tho but I don't think it will be healthy for the format. Besides the price, people will just bitch about blue getting stronger.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

For sure. I'm happy with blue as is; ecstatic, even. Quite frankly, I don't want blue to get anything new or unbanned. I can't afford it. Give red something new. That color gets the shaft daily.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Valtrix]

Control decks and esperblade decks are already playing counterspells in some number (2-4). Mana drain would be a 4-of in any deck playing Jace (and probably more, that card is the definition of tempo!). Also, turn 3 Jaces would be stupid.

[Darkenslight]

On the results issue, I would weight any tournament with less than 33 players to be of lesser value when determining the metagame. The reason for this is that it reduces the effect that variance has on a placing.

[cheerios]

The color needs an identity makeover. Right now, there's nothing interesting for red.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[sdematt]

The color needs an identity makeover. Right now, there's nothing interesting for red.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Red and Black have needed a boost for YEARS. And it's not just about Brainstorm hosing, it's about having proactive cards that aren't just anti "good Blue" cards.

-Matt

[testing32]

Red and Black have needed a boost for YEARS. And it's not just about Brainstorm hosing, it's about having proactive cards that aren't just anti "good Blue" cards.

-Matt

I think they should give black fateseal.

If they are going to continue with this red draw/discard thing they need to actually start printing some good ones. Like, draw two discard one for R.

[Arsenal]

On the results issue, I would weight any tournament with less than 33 players to be of lesser value when determining the metagame. The reason for this is that it reduces the effect that variance has on a placing.

Right, which is why thesource uses a 33 player floor and the vast, vast majority of thecouncil's data is mined from 33+ player tourneys. There are sub-33 player tourneys on thecouncil to be sure, but those are in the minority. But what HSCK was saying is that he doesn't consider any sub-50 player tourney worth counting and only views SCG Opens and BoM-style tourneys as "real" tournaments.

As FTW and I have pointed out, a 33 player floor allows for enough rounds (6, I believe) to draw reasonable conclusions from and by cherry picking only the 129+ player tourneys (since he apparently has a hard-on for channelfireball's Bob Huang) out of the dozens of dozens of +33/-129 tourneys out there, he's trying to draw conclusions from an extremely small sample size. Yet he believes that I'm "skewing the data" and "misleading" people by presenting analysis from all of the available data instead of cherry picked data?

[HSCK]

Top 16 an Open, GP, or BoM carries much more weight than top 8'ing repeatedly at 40 person tourneys. What's the point at looking at results like that? Even The Source's floor is far too low to determine what's actually good.

[Arsenal]

Top 16 an Open, GP, or BoM carries much more weight than top 8'ing repeatedly at 40 person tourneys. What's the point at looking at results like that? Even The Source's floor is far too low to determine what's actually good.

Because your "129+ only" sample size is too small to draw any meaningful conclusions from. How do you do not understand this basic concept of statistics?

[Julian23]

Top 16 an Open, GP, or BoM carries much more weight than top 8'ing repeatedly at 40 person tourneys. What's the point at looking at results like that? Even The Source's floor is far too low to determine what's actually good.

You might have missed what Arsenal said in the post directly above yours: way too small sample size and thus greatly increased variance.

Although, while you are free to assume that a Top16 at SCG Open carries so much more significance than Like a Top8 in a 64man tournament, the overwhelming majority of us disagrees. You are though free to create your own metagame analysis based on the criteria you propose; I'm genuinely interested in how that would look like.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Lands would be a fringe DTB lol.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Technics]

Obviously any tournament below 1,500 players is not a good representation of the metagame. I mean there is too much variance in anything smaller than 1,500 players. Thus the unbiased metagame analysis shows that TNN is super OP.

Source (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/welcome#1)

[Arsenal]

In December 2013, there were 28 tourneys that had at least 33 entrants. Of those, only 8 would meet the 129+ criteria that HSCK is so desperately clinging onto. Trying to draw any conclusions about the overall Legacy meta from only 29% of the tourneys while completely ignoring the other 71% is just retarded. HSCK has been on this "I only follow Bob Huang's 129+ player data" kick for months now, I doubt anything we say will change his views.

HSCK, do me a favor, please don't comment anymore on my use of thecouncil's data when it's painfully obvious you have no clue what you're talking about. It wastes my time and clutters up the thread. Thank you.

[Lemnear]

I would be thankful if peeps stop trying to determine the WORLDWIDE Legacy metagame based on bi-weekly US events

[Patrunkenphat7]

Unbanning mana drain will drive it's price up only. Cool card tho but I don't think it will be healthy for the format. Besides the price, people will just bitch about blue getting stronger.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Yeah I agree that Mana Drain's cost prohibitiveness keeps it out of the discussion. As far as the colors go, I think it would be cool if the game had a more balanced color pie from the beginning, but I'm fine with playing with OP blue cards printed in the 90's since that's just how it is. I think you just have to accept that Wizards screwed up balancing the color pie if you play eternal formats. That's still no excuse for the printing of True-Name in 2013 though...

[FTW]

I would be thankful if peeps stop trying to determine the WORLDWIDE Legacy metagame based on bi-weekly US events

But US = relevant part of the world, duh

(note: I am not American)

[Ellomdian]

Control decks and esperblade decks are already playing counterspells in some number (2-4). Mana drain would be a 4-of in any deck playing Jace (and probably more, that card is the definition of tempo!). Also, turn 3 Jaces would be stupid.

Wha? You're playing JTMS turn 3? What the hell did you do wrong turn 2 (glances at 7Tezz...) :cool:


Yeah I agree that Mana Drain's cost prohibitiveness keeps it out of the discussion.

Mana drain is ~$180. Goyf is ~$120, and FREAKIN' TNN is $50. Costing monies should not prohibit you from this discussion, because it just hyperinflates the good cards immediately below your price floor...




I'm a troll! Trolly troll troll troll troll troll. FEED ME SEYMOUR! Statistics! Empirically flawed 'logic'! Personal bias and rhetoric! Trolly troll troll TROLLLLLLLL

Claiming that one statistical group does not satisfy your particular hypothesis without justifying it, and then arguing that other analysis is invalid based on your aforementioned lack of justification is dumb. I'd ask you to stop wasting digital ink and save your keyboard the abuse of having to be touched by your rage-y fingers, but let's be real, this is the internet. That will just make you froth harder.

[Zombie]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27801_Thoughts-On-The-Banned-Restricted-List.html
I want whatever he's smoking. It might help my brain gather itself together from the liquefied lump on the floor it became when exposed to too much dumb. (re:Legacy bannings part and associated logic)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27801_Thoughts-On-The-Banned-Restricted-List.html
I want whatever he's smoking. It might help my brain gather itself together from the liquefied lump on the floor it became when exposed to too much dumb. (re:Legacy bannings part and associated logic)

I think I got a contact high just skimming it. I mean wow: dat logic!

Regarding the three blue cards, only Show and Tell I can agree with, and that's because it's enables two key aspects that makes it potentially broken in Legacy:

1) The cards it enables are usually hard to answer, especially without prior knowledge as to what it will be enabling upon use.
2) The cards it enables typically win the game very fast, so there isn't enough time to fish out an answer.

As for TNN, it's more or less enabled by Batterskull, which is enabled by Stoneforge ... that there is a pretty tricky chain to pick out the rotten apple now that I think about it.

[Megadeus]

I just love that he thinks that Mental Misstep is okay to unban. That just seems AWFUL.

[apple713]

I think I got a contact high just skimming it. I mean wow: dat logic!

Regarding the three blue cards, only Show and Tell I can agree with, and that's because it's enables two key aspects that makes it potentially broken in Legacy:

1) The cards it enables are usually hard to answer, especially without prior knowledge as to what it will be enabling upon use.
2) The cards it enables typically win the game very fast, so there isn't enough time to fish out an answer.

As for TNN, it's more or less enabled by Batterskull, which is enabled by Stoneforge ... that there is a pretty tricky chain to pick out the rotten apple now that I think about it.

Nothing, including show and tell is swwping the format. Therefore nithing will be banned. Its more likely tgats cards will be unbanned

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Nothing, including show and tell is swwping the format. Therefore nithing will be banned. Its more likely tgats cards will be unbanned

Oh I agree with ya: I was just saying the only one that he mentioned that close to being banworthy was S&T.

[Feaor]

Nothing, including show and tell is swwping the format. Therefore nithing will be banned. Its more likely tgats cards will be unbanned

I would strongly disagree with this, TNN is certainly on their radar and I don't think anything will get unbanned for a while unless TNN gets banned and they unban something as a consolation. Now I don't think TNN will get unbanned on Monday, but I think the meta is certainly still in flux so its seems extremely unlikely that anything gets unbanned until the format is given time to settle. I would expect this time next year at the earliest is when we would likely see something come off the list if the meta is in a good place.

[nedleeds]

I just love that he thinks that Mental Misstep is okay to unban. That just seems AWFUL.

It's absurd. Legacy is nearly a 56 card format right now with Brainstorm ... welcome back to 52 card format. Enjoy Merfolk with 4 MM and Progenifish also ...

[HammafistRoob]

Does anybody have a legitimate argument to keep Brainstorm in the format? I don't care how much your poon will hurt, I just want to see the thought process that doesn't involve "RaWr it doesn't win the game on it's own and I'll quit if they ban it!!!".

[Megadeus]

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Snapcaster Mage

See I'm already next leveling the format

[Ellomdian]

Does anybody have a legitimate argument to keep Brainstorm in the format? I don't care how much your poon will hurt, I just want to see the thought process that doesn't involve "RaWr it doesn't win the game on it's own and I'll quit if they ban it!!!".

Not really. It's been regarded as one of the keystones of the format for long enough that people generally just don't consider it overpowered at this point.

[HammafistRoob]

Pall Malls and Keystones.

That is all.

[Megadeus]

I know it is a very powerful card and all. I honestly don't care anymore. I accept the fact that it won't get banned. Hell, I enjoy playing it when I am in blue decks. It is annoying that Blue decks have infinitely more consistent cards, but whatever. Just please, someone punch the next person who says that MM should be unbanned

[Mewens]

Does anybody have a legitimate argument to keep Brainstorm in the format? I don't care how much your poon will hurt, I just want to see the thought process that doesn't involve "RaWr it doesn't win the game on it's own and I'll quit if they ban it!!!".

I'm of two minds about it, myself. It adds a ton of consistency to the format – and that's a huge amount of pressure to keep decks trim and cards efficient. I mean, its mere existence chokes out more than a few strats (by enabling decks like SnT and Storm and tempo shells).

On the other hand, there's less and less separating this format from Modern. I'm not trying to say that Brainstorm is the dividing line between the two formats – but take a look at the creatures being run in Legacy. The difference is, what, Mom? Stoneforge Mystic? Wild Mongoose? It's a pretty thin line. Spells are what makes Legacy Legacy, but even then, we're mostly resting on storm, FoW, Stifle, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain and Show and Tell. (I guess you could put Jace 2.0 and LED in that list, too.)

I'm no genius, so I'm not going to pretend that I could say, "Legacy would look like -this- without Brainstorm," but I'm equally certain that it wouldn't take too many bans of its flagship cards before it started to look like Modern with white-border mana bases.

[apple713]

I would strongly disagree with this, TNN is certainly on their radar and I don't think anything will get unbanned for a while unless TNN gets banned and they unban something as a consolation. Now I don't think TNN will get unbanned on Monday, but I think the meta is certainly still in flux so its seems extremely unlikely that anything gets unbanned until the format is given time to settle. I would expect this time next year at the earliest is when we would likely see something come off the list if the meta is in a good place.

TNN is a poorly designed card. It's not broken, it just should have never been printed. Unfortunately the same is true for many other cards (see delver of secrets and mental misstep). TNN along the lines of WOTC's mistake with tarmogoyf. Not the same just similar in the sense that they neglected to test and think about how it shaped eternal formats. wTNN is the "combo" piece in aggro decks with an equipment. Fortunately he sucks against combo, and has little impact against control (miracles). The only people that are complaining about him are people that play fair decks... i.e. aggro / tempo. If he's that much of a problem for you pick up a fucking combo deck and deal with it like the rest of us.

If you are able to cast a TNN and equip him with something (typically turn 4) and I haven't won with a combo deck, I've already failed. All competitive legacy combo decks win by t4 unless they've been disrupted or incredibly unfortunate in their digging.

There are lots of mainstream answer to this poorly designed card with fucking hideous artwork...(i won't get a set because it looks so retarded). terminus, moat, humility, toxic deluge, liliana of the veil.

red can race it, and it doesn't generate any sort of card advantage at all by itself. If its untapped its a wall. If its attacking its 3 damage...on turn 4....Why are you complaining about 3 damage on turn 4....Standard decks can handle this card. If you can't you need to play better cards or not play legacy.





Does anybody have a legitimate argument to keep Brainstorm in the format? I don't care how much your poon will hurt, I just want to see the thought process that doesn't involve "RaWr it doesn't win the game on it's own and I'll quit if they ban it!!!".

WOTC doesn't make decisions on what to keep and not to keep in the format. They address issues that arise when large tournament results are skewed by certain cards. Brainstorm isn't the reason that all the decks in a top 8 are in the top 8. by that logic you probably would have ban tarmogoyf a long time ago. Same is true for wasteland and force of will probably.

The ONLY issue i see with brainstorm is that the other colors don't have anything near as powerful / similar that they can use to increase consistency in their colors. This creates a biased color shift towards blue and indirectly hates on brainstorm.

Let me ask you this MR hammer fist red player. If WOTC printed the following card

Hammerfist Storm - R

instant

deal 3 damage to target creature or player. Scry 3.


Would this be better than brainstorm? Probably not because it doesn't let you ditch bad cards in your hand. Is it comparable to brainstorm in its filtering / consistency increasing ability... YES. Is it broken, probably not. Burn has top 8'd maybe twice in the last 3 years in legacy. MAYBE other colors would incorporate this into their decks instead of blue.

Unfortunatly since it works well with RUG it would probably only add to the problem but if it was

Pope's Blessing - W

Instant

gain 3 life or prevent 3 damage to target creature or player. Scry 3.

would white play it? Maybe... maybe not. But at least if I'm playing a white deck I have an option for increased consistency.



TLDR; don't ban brainstorm, just print comparable options in other colors.

[KntrellCL]

The argument of "get over it"... "adapt to it" is repetead over the years of every single card banned until now...

Every card has an answer... but when a card generates a metagame around it... it should be banned. This card has pushed away all the fair deck... like maverick, goblins, aggro loam, etc... why should I play combo only for tnn? And why only people with tnn decks can be succesful? Dont get me wrong... i play lands and i really dont care about tnn... but i think is a banneable card to give space to other decks....

[Zombie]

The only people that are complaining about him are people that play fair decks... i.e. aggro / tempo. If he's that much of a problem for you pick up a fucking combo deck and deal with it like the rest of us.

Sorry, I play combo near exclusively, think the card is atrocious for the general enjoyability and interestingness of the format, and should have a painful meeting with the banhammer. The sooner the better. I also complain loudly.

[apple713]

The argument of "get over it"... "adapt to it" is repetead over the years of every single card banned until now...

Every card has an answer... but when a card generates a metagame around it... it should be banned. This card has pushed away all the fair deck... like maverick, goblins, aggro loam, etc... why should I play combo only for tnn? And why only people with tnn decks can be succesful? Dont get me wrong... i play lands and i really dont care about tnn... but i think is a banneable card to give space to other decks....


I agree with you. i don't like that I'm seeing it more and more. I think thats because stone forge just makes it better than it should be. I don't pay much attention to aggro decks tho. Most are not around because they all have superior counterparts. Mav - D&T (I'm sure i'll get flamed for this comparison), goblins - merfolk, aggro loam - jund depths? punishing jund?


Sorry, I play combo near exclusively, think the card is atrocious for the general enjoyability and interestingness of the format, and should have a painful meeting with the banhammer. The sooner the better. I also complain loudly.

I agree but i don't think that will get it the ban hammer. Wotc doenst ban cards because they are not enjoyable or decrease interestingness. Additionally Sinkhole (lands destruction) and stasis should be banned too. They are mind numbingly boring cards and strategies to play against.

[Lord Seth]

I agree but i don't think that will get it the ban hammer. Wotc doenst ban cards because they are not enjoyable or decrease interestingness.
Actually, that was the reasoning given (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af56) for the Affinity bans in Standard.


Additionally Sinkhole (lands destruction) and stasis should be banned too. They are mind numbingly boring cards and strategies to play against.
They also kinda suck, though. It doesn't matter how boring Stasis is to play against if Stasis isn't playable.

[apple713]

Actually, that was the reasoning given (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af56) for the Affinity bans in Standard.

its like comparing apples to oranges when you compare legacy to the almost nonexistent diversity of standard. I see the point you are trying to make but that type of ban doesn't extend to legacy. Legacy is diverse enough to adapt.

The trinisphere example is justified because if trinisphere was not restricted workshop decks would dominate and have significantly more consistency than they do. You would then either be playing with trinisphere or against it. This is comparable to the Mental misstep conundrum we experienced previously. TNN however is nothing like this in the sense that you are either playing with it or against it. Some people may not even see it in a tournament they attend, even after playing 9 rounds.

[Darkenslight]

TNN is a poorly designed card. It's not broken, it just should have never been printed. Unfortunately the same is true for many other cards (see delver of secrets and mental misstep). TNN along the lines of WOTC's mistake with tarmogoyf. Not the same just similar in the sense that they neglected to test and think about how it shaped eternal formats. wTNN is the "combo" piece in aggro decks with an equipment. Fortunately he sucks against combo, and has little impact against control (miracles). The only people that are complaining about him are people that play fair decks... i.e. aggro / tempo. If he's that much of a problem for you pick up a fucking combo deck and deal with it like the rest of us.

If you are able to cast a TNN and equip him with something (typically turn 4) and I haven't won with a combo deck, I've already failed. All competitive legacy combo decks win by t4 unless they've been disrupted or incredibly unfortunate in their digging.

There are lots of mainstream answer to this poorly designed card with fucking hideous artwork...(i won't get a set because it looks so retarded). terminus, moat, humility, toxic deluge, liliana of the veil.

red can race it, and it doesn't generate any sort of card advantage at all by itself. If its untapped its a wall. If its attacking its 3 damage...on turn 4....Why are you complaining about 3 damage on turn 4....Standard decks can handle this card. If you can't you need to play better cards or not play legacy.

I agree with this logic: both Snapcaster and Delver should have been Red rather than Blue. But Wizards decided that Wizards Are Blue.

Morons.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Delver, if not blue then black. Not red. Jesus tits. Flying is not red.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[prateta]

Delver, if not blue then black. Not red. Jesus tits. Flying is not red.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

So all the red flying dragons are secretly black? That's racist!

[Lemnear]

The argument of "get over it"... "adapt to it" is repetead over the years of every single card banned until now...

Every card has an answer... but when a card generates a metagame around it... it should be banned. This card has pushed away all the fair deck... like maverick, goblins, aggro loam, etc... why should I play combo only for tnn? And why only people with tnn decks can be succesful? Dont get me wrong... i play lands and i really dont care about tnn... but i think is a banneable card to give space to other decks....

TNN did not push out Maverick, Goblins or Aggro Loam ... those decks were dead long before. What about doing some Background Research before claiming such nonsense? "I play strategy X, so I don't care" isn't very helpful overall and the reason I don't bring up combo decks discussing the fact, that atm most decklists start with either Delver, SFM or Griselbrand as their creatures

[sdematt]

I think Brain DeMars overestimates just HOW good the Spirit is. Who is going to play it? Death and Taxes. DnT gets another hatebear, but what are they cutting for it? Sure, they squeeze some in. The only real value you're getting is the surprise buttsex "Vial on 2 in response to Brainstorm." Other than that, you play around it,You'll put Jitte counters on your TNN, and it'll die just the same.

As for Brainstorm being bannable, I consider it to yes, be a keystone of the format. It would be like banning Shop in Vintage. Sure, Shop is good, and there's likely times of Shop dominance in Vintage, but banning it just throws everything out of whack.

As I've said before, print better cards for the other colours (especially black and red that are proactive strategies on their own, not just anti-blue cards), and/or stop printing MORE and more out of the colour pie blue cards.

-Matt

[apple713]

As I've said before, print better cards for the other colours (especially black and red that are proactive strategies on their own, not just anti-blue cards), and/or stop printing MORE and more out of the colour pie blue cards.

-Matt

yeah, red could use a complete overhaul.

[Feaor]

TNN is a poorly designed card. It's not broken, it just should have never been printed. Unfortunately the same is true for many other cards (see delver of secrets and mental misstep). TNN along the lines of WOTC's mistake with tarmogoyf. Not the same just similar in the sense that they neglected to test and think about how it shaped eternal formats. wTNN is the "combo" piece in aggro decks with an equipment. Fortunately he sucks against combo, and has little impact against control (miracles). The only people that are complaining about him are people that play fair decks... i.e. aggro / tempo. If he's that much of a problem for you pick up a fucking combo deck and deal with it like the rest of us.

If you are able to cast a TNN and equip him with something (typically turn 4) and I haven't won with a combo deck, I've already failed. All competitive legacy combo decks win by t4 unless they've been disrupted or incredibly unfortunate in their digging.

There are lots of mainstream answer to this poorly designed card with fucking hideous artwork...(i won't get a set because it looks so retarded). terminus, moat, humility, toxic deluge, liliana of the veil.

red can race it, and it doesn't generate any sort of card advantage at all by itself. If its untapped its a wall. If its attacking its 3 damage...on turn 4....Why are you complaining about 3 damage on turn 4....Standard decks can handle this card. If you can't you need to play better cards or not play legacy.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you whether or not TNN should be banned as you're not going to change your mind, but you completely missed my point here. Whether or not you think TNN should be banned, I think you would have to be insane to claim that TNN isn't on WotC radar due to the general backlash from the community over it. So the point of my last post was to say its more likely that TNN gets banned in the next few months to a year than there is of something getting unbanned because it doesn't make sense to shake up a format which hasn't quite settled yet. So I'd say the earliest something would get unbanned if TNN isn't banned would probably be September as I think by that time the metagame will likely have sufficiently stabilized.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So all the red flying dragons are secretly black? That's racist!

There are 96 dragons in the game of magic. Not all are red. Even if they were, it's merely a drop in an ocean of non-red flyers. This is to say that flying in this example is a dragon thing, not a red thing.

Also, I guess I should specify "legacy playable" when I post these things. I know it's understood but apparently on a legacy board some people still don't apply logic to semi-broad statements.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Barook]

Wotc doenst ban cards because they are not enjoyable or decrease interestingness.
What is Mystical Tutor?

And it didn't even put up that many results when you go to the DtB section of the time of the ban: June 2010 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection/page2)

Now compare that with the current meta: January metagame (http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?format=Legacy&fecha=2014-1)

3 out of the 4 top decks are TNN decks.

[apple713]

What is Mystical Tutor?

And it didn't even put up that many results when you go to the DtB section of the time of the ban: June 2010 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection/page2)

Now compare that with the current meta: January metagame (http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?format=Legacy&fecha=2014-1)

3 out of the 4 top decks are TNN decks.

tutors are rightfully banned.... especially that one. Maybe play it in high tide? i'd play it in S&T. ANT would love to play it. Didn't it get banned with flash?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

tutors are rightfully banned.... especially that one. Maybe play it in high tide? i'd play it in S&T. ANT would love to play it. Didn't it get banned with flash?

ANT did love playing it, and I was mad for a long time when it got banned. Now with S&T I'm glad it's banned but it took a while for me to get to that point of acceptance. I like perfection and brokenness. Sue me. Also, I play TNN.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Darkenslight]

There are 96 dragons in the game of magic. Not all are red. Even if they were, it's merely a drop in an ocean of non-red flyers. This is to say that flying in this example is a dragon thing, not a red thing.

Also, I guess I should specify "legacy playable" when I post these things. I know it's understood but apparently on a legacy board some people still don't apply logic to semi-broad statements.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

My point remains, however - Blue should not have gotten the best 1-drop from that set. MY reasoning for Delver being red is that it keys only off of instants and sorceries, and Red is secondary for sorcery and instant interactions.

[HSCK]

What is Mystical Tutor?

And it didn't even put up that many results when you go to the DtB section of the time of the ban: June 2010 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection/page2)

Now compare that with the current meta: January metagame (http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?format=Legacy&fecha=2014-1)

3 out of the 4 top decks are TNN decks.

You mean 2? The top deck is most assuredly not TNN centric.

[Barook]

My point remains, however - Blue should not have gotten the best 1-drop from that set. MY reasoning for Delver being red is that it keys only off of instants and sorceries, and Red is secondary for sorcery and instant interactions.
Delver shouldn't have been printed in its current form at all: It may have been balanced as a 2/2 flyer, but that can't be changed anymore.

TNN is just the latest addition to the blue pillars which are the reason why Blue is so dominant right now:

1. Brainstorm
2. Delver
3. TNN
4. Show & Tell

It would be interesting how the format would look like without those four cards. (For the record: Right now, only TNN deserves to get the axe due to being a format-warping, unfun PoS.)

Edit:

You mean 2? The top deck is most assuredly not TNN centric.
While Patriot is a Delver deck, it's also a TNN deck. Just because they run only two copies doesn't mean that they won't end the game regularly with the TNN plan.

[Darkenslight]

Delver shouldn't have been printed in its current form at all: It may have been balanced as a 2/2 flyer, but that can't be changed anymore.

TNN is just the latest addition to the blue pillars which are the reason why Blue is so dominant right now:

1. Brainstorm
2. Delver
3. TNN
4. Show & Tell

It would be interesting how the format would look like without those four cards. (For the record: Right now, only TNN deserves to get the axe due to being a format-warping, unfun PoS.)

Pretty much, though if you took Delver and TNN out, Blue aggro/tempo decks, such as Stoneblade variants or Delver, would be a lot weaker. Removing Brainstorm would hit combo hard, and removing S'N'T hits the primary blue combo decks (Sneak and Show is the main one, but also the Omnitell variants.)

[Lemnear]

I'm still not sure if SFM isn't the real offender here in the duo that defines the DtB's according to results :/

Pretty sure, the only reason, aside the stupid lack of interactivity, for TNN being in the focus here is, that SFM is also in near every other, fucking non-blue aggro deck. That fact is imo pretty significant ... from blades to Miracles crossovers to D&T to Maverick to Deadguy Ale ... everyone (except RUG and that deck is on the decline) runs SFM.

[Arsenal]

Very, very few Miracles lists are on the hybrid SFM-CounterTop plan. Maverick isn't a deck anymore since Nov 1st and the vast majority of Maverick lists don't run SFM. Deadguy Ale isn't a deck at all anymore and really hasn't been since the 2008/09-ish.

The fact that there are many tier 2/3 decks running SFM and not dominating is just a testament to SFM being unbanworthy, imo.