All B/R update speculation.

[Amon Amarth]

I have Hermit Druid built and have played against it. Not that it is the most powerful deck out there, but winning the turn it activates is not fun to play against. It comes down to removal,counter and hope they do not FoW/Daze it, at 2 mana a 1st turn Hermit is very easy to play and protect. Because the deck wins once activated and Cabal Therapy can clear removal/FoWs off nacros, i would say leave this alone.


Druid based decks are bad Show and Tell or Storm decks.

[Cabal_chan]

Lol @ Bargain, Really? Bargain = Repeating Ad Naus. Bargain is no joke and will win on spot.

A minor technicality. You wouldn't be repeating AdN, since you won't have the life total for it unless you fire off a mini-Tendrils. But if you have Yawg, why bother? You just replay all the stuff in your yard, and chances are what you have there already is enough.

[MMogg]

Yeah, i played Belcher, something like 2 years ago, but i'm not following the deck anymore so it's purely theory here. I'm not sure 3 is that much better than RR in belcher, but i'll test it right away.

EDIT: Tested a bit. Isn't Belcher just an horrible deck? You have no protection, you run only 7 win condition +4 tutors and also Empty the Warrens is just a bad win condition in a deck with 8 ESG/SSG, 4 Tinderwalls and no draw spells. Not to talk about the fact that a lot of decks can race 10-12 goblins on turn 2, run sweepers, discard (a single thoughtseize rape you) and counters.
Even with 4 Vault instead of 4 Wraiths, deck would still massively suck as it would still be just too inconsistent and vulnerable.

I think you're still underestimating Mana Vault's power (may it stay banned forever). :r::r: into :r::r::r: (Rite/Tinder -->Desperate Ritual) versus :r::r: into :r::3: (Rite/Tinder-->Mana Vault), for example, Rite-->Mana Vault --> Seething Song --> Burning Wish --> EtWarrens. Not to get into so many imaginary plays, but suffice to say, all Belcher's win conditions need :3: minimum, making Mana Vault a bomb at its :1: investment.

As for consistency issues, this is probably better suited for the Belcher thread itself, but I will say that the more you play the deck, the more you learn to fight through the hate. That said, if you don't have or incorrectly uses your hate against Belcher, then you better hide yo kids, hide yo wife and hide yo husband too cuz errbody gettin' raped out here (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/antoine-dodson-bed-intruder). Of course, it's a classic style combo deck meaning it needs its pieces and when you take those pieces away or stop them, you fail: welcome to playing combo.

[Gheizen64]

I think you're still underestimating Mana Vault's power (may it stay banned forever). :r::r: into :r::r::r: (Rite/Tinder -->Desperate Ritual) versus :r::r: into :r::3: (Rite/Tinder-->Mana Vault), for example, Rite-->Mana Vault --> Seething Song --> Burning Wish --> EtWarrens. Not to get into so many imaginary plays, but suffice to say, all Belcher's win conditions need :3: minimum, making Mana Vault a bomb at its :1: investment.

As for consistency issues, this is probably better suited for the Belcher thread itself, but I will say that the more you play the deck, the more you learn to fight through the hate. That said, if you don't have or incorrectly uses your hate against Belcher, then you better hide yo kids, hide yo wife and hide yo husband too cuz errbody gettin' raped out here (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/antoine-dodson-bed-intruder). Of course, it's a classic style combo deck meaning it needs its pieces and when you take those pieces away or stop them, you fail: welcome to playing combo.

Yes i understand my inability to play combo, but my point was mainly that Vault wouldn't break anything. Belcher is and remain a pretty bad deck even with Vault, nowhere near black based storm decks.
Vault imho it's largely overrated in this format, and while i'm pretty sure it wold see play whereas Monolith did not, i'm also pretty sure it would suffer ultimately of the same problem: it wouldn't have a good home in this format.
Also, i'd really like some form of brown to be viable in legacy, but it's probably impossible being this a blue and creature based format.

[MMogg]

Yes i understand my inability to play combo, but my point was mainly that Vault wouldn't break anything. Belcher is and remain a pretty bad deck even with Vault, nowhere near black based storm decks.
Vault imho it's largely overrated in this format, and while i'm pretty sure it wold see play whereas Monolith did not, i'm also pretty sure it would suffer ultimately of the same problem: it wouldn't have a good home in this format.
Also, i'd really like some form of brown to be viable in legacy, but it's probably impossible being this a blue and creature based format.

Yeah, not trying to beat a dead horse, but I really don't think you're grasping HOW broken Mana Vault would be... allow me one final example:

Elvish Spirit Guide --> Mana Vault --> Mana Vault --> Belcher --> LED, win.

That's not so far fetched. Even now, with no Vault, I sometimes have to go into sideboarding without having any clue what my opponent was playing because I Belched him turn one on the play. I know, Belcher is not now and never will break Legacy, but I'm just looking at how Vault would change Belcher, and that alone is a huge impact. What I'm saying is what kind of change would it bring to other more flexible combo decks?

Turn 1 Island,
Turn 2 Island --> Mana Vault, Show and Tell (with mana left floating for Daze) and probably with Force back up.

There are other combo decks much more consistent and fiercer that would jump at Mana Vault as an accelerator.

I mean, I am a combo player and a Belcher player at that, and even I'm saying I don't want to see Mana vault unbanned. Only bad things can come of it. :laugh:

[jrsthethird]

A minor technicality. You wouldn't be repeating AdN, since you won't have the life total for it unless you fire off a mini-Tendrils. But if you have Yawg, why bother? You just replay all the stuff in your yard, and chances are what you have there already is enough.

You're thinking of Yawgmoth's Will. Two problem situations with Yawgmoth's Bargain:

1. Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood:

It saves you 2 mana and it gives you 2 protection spells (if you Therapy it), and you get to win the game by drawing your whole deck. At the worst, if you don't draw the sac outlet, your opponent can't win without an evasion creature. See Oath of Druids for general unfun factor.

2. U/B Tendrils decks:

Ad Nauseum can't be cheated, and you can lose even after it resolves by shit luck. It also restricts deck construction by forcing you to have a lot of low CMC cards, making it a singleton you have to tutor up. You can run 4 Bargain, and the CMC restriciton means you can protect it with FOW. Also, since you're already running 4 copies of it and Force, why not throw in Show and Tell for possible turn 1 Bargain? Totally broken in storm combo. Necropotence would be a safer card to unban since you get the cards during your end step.[/QUOTE]

[dahcmai]

When is the new list supposed to come out anyway?

[Amon Amarth]

20th of September.

[majikal]

lol @ Mana Vault. I will play MUD all damn day if they unban that. Turn 1 Lodestone Golem? Yes please!

[Gheizen64]

Yeah, not trying to beat a dead horse, but I really don't think you're grasping HOW broken Mana Vault would be... allow me one final example:

Elvish Spirit Guide --> Mana Vault --> Mana Vault --> Belcher --> LED, win.

That's not so far fetched. Even now, with no Vault, I sometimes have to go into sideboarding without having any clue what my opponent was playing because I Belched him turn one on the play. I know, Belcher is not now and never will break Legacy, but I'm just looking at how Vault would change Belcher, and that alone is a huge impact. What I'm saying is what kind of change would it bring to other more flexible combo decks?

Turn 1 Island,
Turn 2 Island --> Mana Vault, Show and Tell (with mana left floating for Daze) and probably with Force back up.

There are other combo decks much more consistent and fiercer that would jump at Mana Vault as an accelerator.

I mean, I am a combo player and a Belcher player at that, and even I'm saying I don't want to see Mana vault unbanned. Only bad things can come of it. :laugh:

You're just listing god hands, and what Vault can do in your examples, Dark ritual can do too. Or even Rite of flame in your second case.

[MMogg]

You're just listing god hands, and what Vault can do in your examples, Dark ritual can do too. Or even Rite of flame in your second case.

You're absolutely right, let's unban Mana Vault right now.

[leander?]

Wait, SnT, Vault and a random eldrazi is a god hand? (including up to two draws, not even counting cantrips first turn)

[Gheizen64]

You're absolutely right, let's unban Mana Vault right now.

Find better examples then, because i'm not scared by a colorless dark ritual. If you're so sure Vault would be broken, find better examples (like a list) or play me on MWS or something. Because you're not convincing me or anyone else by using Vault as a colorless ritual in your examples. Also, history showed me that Vault was busted in decks like Tinker, Academy or Stax, none of them is actually present in Legacy.
Just to say, in current Vintage, the Mana Vault slot in combo is often debated, and some people actually run Cabal ritual (iirc Smemmen prefer to run Vault in his storm decks) before it since it sinergize better with a lot of cards in your graveyard and YagWill, plus colored casting costs. Vault is usually an auto-include only if you play FoF or Gift. Also, since Vault is better in Brown decks, i actually think that the eventual unban of it would nerf combo, not buff it, by making prison actually viable in the format.
Not that i advocate the unbanning of it right before the printing of a big artifact set that could bring brown to a playable level even in Legacy.


Wait, SnT, Vault and a random eldrazi is a god hand? (including up to two draws, not even counting cantrips first turn)

Vault wouldn't even be played in SnT decks and SnT can easily be played on turn two with no need of it. The examples that were listed showed a Vault used like a colorless Dark Ritual.
I'll repeat, i'm sure Vault would be played, but i can't see a single deck broken by it. Belcher would just be improved by it, but it would still just too inconsistent compared to storm (read; worse), unless there's something i can't see when i try it and when i play storm. The large majority of deck doesn't even have a card with 3 colorless in its mana cost. If someone want to test a decklist with me on MWS to prove me wrong i'll be glad, seriously.

EDIT: completely forgot about AdN costing 3BB and not 2BBB. Lol k. Card is bonkers.

[edgewalker]

Is mana acceleration really what Stax needs in Legacy?

[tsabo_tavoc]

You're thinking of Yawgmoth's Will. Two problem situations with Yawgmoth's Bargain:

1. Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood:

It saves you 2 mana and it gives you 2 protection spells (if you Therapy it), and you get to win the game by drawing your whole deck. At the worst, if you don't draw the sac outlet, your opponent can't win without an evasion creature. See Oath of Druids for general unfun factor.

2. U/B Tendrils decks:

Ad Nauseum can't be cheated, and you can lose even after it resolves by shit luck. It also restricts deck construction by forcing you to have a lot of low CMC cards, making it a singleton you have to tutor up. You can run 4 Bargain, and the CMC restriciton means you can protect it with FOW. Also, since you're already running 4 copies of it and Force, why not throw in Show and Tell for possible turn 1 Bargain? Totally broken in storm combo. Necropotence would be a safer card to unban since you get the cards during your end step.

I have to agree with you:tongue: A permanent is indeed much more troublesome than an instant, totally overlooked it. It may not be unfair, but must be unfun (like unbanning Black Vise or Skullclamp).

Mana Vault - only being a colorless dark ritual does not warrant to be safe: a functional reprint of dark ritual would make the format degenerate as combos with 8 best rituals are just so consistent. The interaction with Voltaic Key is abusable, though not a huge factor to claim against the unbanning.

[menace13]

Druid based decks are bad Show and Tell or Storm decks.

I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

Yeah, I would probably just combine a dredge plan and a venge-vival plan. Narco-Bridge-Therapy with Anger and possibly LED. Should be consistant turn 2/3 combo potential and a Venge slow-roll. It'd basically function like an improved Dredge.

[Amon Amarth]

I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

You're right they don't play out the same at all because the aforementioned decks dont eat it to commonly played removal spells like Bolt Plow/PTE and don't have a vulnerability to GY hate. You're better off just putting an Emrakul into play and locking up the game from there. Emrakul is even kind enough to be incredibly hard to remove outside of a few narow cards. Good luck getting Hermit Druid into play and untapping with him in a format where every deck can attack your combo from multiple angles.

[Bryant Cook]

There should be an option for nothing to be banned.

[Gheizen64]

There should be an option for nothing to be banned.

Hello? The pool is from ages ago and actually, we were discussing the unbanning of some debatable cards.

Or maybe you're just trolling.

[Bryant Cook]

I didn't realize it was from forever ago. Sorry. But still. I feel like there's more people who want no changes than people who do.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Mana Vault is wayyy to broken. Rit-> Vault-> AdN

Sick.

[menace13]

You're right they don't play out the same at all because the aforementioned decks dont eat it to commonly played removal spells like Bolt Plow/PTE and don't have a vulnerability to GY hate. You're better off just putting an Emrakul into play and locking up the game from there. Emrakul is even kind enough to be incredibly hard to remove outside of a few narow cards. Good luck getting Hermit Druid into play and untapping with him in a format where every deck can attack your combo from multiple angles.

They are not the same type of decks. Saying dying to removal or gy hate does not make it a bad deck. Most decks play 4 removal spells some do not play any at all. Discard can remove the answers allowing you to counter others, is a solid plan. The deck has a number of ways to be disrupted, Zoo can be hard due to infi removal, but it isnt unwinnable. Needle,Claim,E Truth all answer gy hate. Just because SnT-->Emrakul is a powerful combo, does not lessen how good a Lone,Single Hermit Druid can be; There is no more set up after Hermit taps, no cards needed.
I am not saying "it is the best deck evar omguhasnoclu". The deck is not bad just because there are ways to stop it. It is a good deck and not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

@Mikey- Anger is a good idea haven't tested that could also somehow set up Anger in yard to play around spot removal with Hermit-Maybe SurvivalDruid with Vines, sounds good ?-, used Dragon's Breath and Lord of Extinction to feed Ghoul in current list.

Either way, I would like to see more cards unbanned Hermit or otherwise.

[SpikeyMikey]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You're basically borrowing half of vengevine and the win half of dredge (i.e. the stuff that doesn't dredge since you have druid to do it in one shot). LED works well in this deck since you can use it to power SotF --> lethal vengevine or Hermit Druid --> Bridge zombies. You've got Mongrel/LED to get rid of Bridges from hand. I don't think it would be format breaking, but I think it would be VERY solidly tier 1. Without an active Crypt/Relic/Extirpate/Stifle (with a removal spell for Druid before next turn), your opponent has no chance to do anything before you make 16 2/2's or multiple 4/3's.

[Nidd]

There should be an option for nothing to be banned.
Seconded. The format looks quite healthy.

[Amon Amarth]

They are not the same type of decks. Saying dying to removal or gy hate does not make it a bad deck. Most decks play 4 removal spells some do not play any at all. Discard can remove the answers allowing you to counter others, is a solid plan. The deck has a number of ways to be disrupted, Zoo can be hard due to infi removal, but it isnt unwinnable. Needle,Claim,E Truth all answer gy hate. Just because SnT-->Emrakul is a powerful combo, does not lessen how good a Lone,Single Hermit Druid can be; There is no more set up after Hermit taps, no cards needed.
I am not saying "it is the best deck evar omguhasnoclu". The deck is not bad just because there are ways to stop it. It is a good deck and not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

@Mikey- Anger is a good idea haven't tested that could also somehow set up Anger in yard to play around spot removal with Hermit-Maybe SurvivalDruid with Vines, sounds good ?-, used Dragon's Breath and Lord of Extinction to feed Ghoul in current list.

Either way, I would like to see more cards unbanned Hermit or otherwise.

Ah, sorry just a bit too much hyperbole on my part. I was basically trying to get across that there are other decks and cards unabnned right now that are just as broken as Druid and probably more resilient too. Thus it's a safe unban. Although you are correct that its pretty much the easiest set up ever.

[DrJones]

Ah, sorry just a bit too much hyperbole on my part. I was basically trying to get across that there are other decks and cards unabnned right now that are just as broken as Druid and probably more resilient too. Thus it's a safe unban. Although you are correct that its pretty much the easiest set up ever.No, it's the other way around, it's likely the other cards will get banned because they are crazier than druid.

[sdematt]

Honestly, Legacy is fun right now. We have a bunch of TES and SI running around, and it's great. I actually like playing against this type of combo. Who doesn't love some shelldocking an Emrakul?

I believe the format is in a place where we have decks that are Top Tier and good, but not overwhelmingly good. Merfolk, Zoo, etc. can all be beaten, but are all good decks. We also have a bunch of Tier 1.5 decks that can stand up, and do quite well in their own accord. Nothing is really dominating the meta, although some decks are more popular than others.

I'll be honest, Mystical Tutor did take away some strategies, and the format probably would have survived had it not been banned, but the way it is now, I like it very much. It's a tad slower, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

-Matt

[dahcmai]

I would kind of like to have Shaharzad back. Be fun to cast that on some of these new combo decks. Not to mention, I bet half the people have forgotten about the whole "remove from game" thing with that card and would actually try and play me out in a game.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No, it's the other way around, it's likely the other cards will get banned because they are crazier than druid.

No, nothing will be banned anytime soon because nothing is overly dominating.


For all the other people Druid is really good. The thing about Druid is, as soon as he activates the game is over and you win. That means all you really need is a way to get Druid into hand and a way to protect him until he activates. I messed around with a Druid deck briefly right before the B&R list split and it was really strong. Between Wordly Tutor, Druid, and all the cheap discard available (including Unmask) it's very easy to play 2 discard spells and then a second turn Druid and then they have one turn to answer before you win.

Basically Druid is a 1G creature whose ability is to activate to win the game. It's a one card win-con in any deck it's ever going to be in. Show and Tell Emrakul is not really comparable since you need a companion spell and they get to put a possible answer into play for free. Druid is just play any discard you can, strip their hand, play Druid, win. I'd hate to see what people could do with that card now-adays.

[sdematt]

I'd love to have Shaharzad back. Twincast + Mirari + Shaharzad + the enchantment that forces the game to draw in 2 turns. Good times.

-Matt

[dahcmai]

I just liked Tormod's crypting, Extirpating, Swordsing, and Samurai of the Pale Curtaining people in the subgame and then watching them cringe as the judge said, "No they don't come back, they stay removed back in the normal game". Muahahaahah! It's WW, player loses half their life next time around.

[perm]

flame me all you want, but the cold hard fact is that the format would be far healthier, more interesting and more varied without Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is the epitome of a format warping card.

Also, why are land tax and earthcraft still banned? And I think gush and frantic search would be interesting.

[jrsthethird]

I just liked Tormod's crypting, Extirpating, Swordsing, and Samurai of the Pale Curtaining people in the subgame and then watching them cringe as the judge said, "No they don't come back, they stay removed back in the normal game". Muahahaahah! It's WW, player loses half their life next time around.

Does this still work now that there exists a zone in the game for those cards? Similar to how you can't Wish for exiled cards.

[perm]

Does this still work now that there exists a zone in the game for those cards? Similar to how you can't Wish for exiled cards.

nope, when the game ends, all cards from all of that subgame's zones are shuffled in, including exile

[majikal]

You're right they don't play out the same at all because the aforementioned decks dont eat it to commonly played removal spells like Bolt Plow/PTE and don't have a vulnerability to GY hate. You're better off just putting an Emrakul into play and locking up the game from there. Emrakul is even kind enough to be incredibly hard to remove outside of a few narow cards. Good luck getting Hermit Druid into play and untapping with him in a format where every deck can attack your combo from multiple angles.
The list I was working on the last time Hermit Druid was mentioned used Entomb -> Anger before it went off. The opponent does not have a chance to respond to an activation. Now with M11, you can side into Leyline of Sanctity to avoid all grave-hate but Faerie Macabre. After testing it online for a week or so I was sporting a pretty frightening 2nd-turn kill percentage of about 75%. All you really need in hand to go off is entomb (or LED if Anger is in hand), a way to get hermit druid, and enough mana to cast and activate it. Between Lotus Petal, 8 Spirit Guides, optional LED, and 8-12 slots dedicated to Hermit Druid (Druid itself, Summoner's Pact, optional Worldly Tutor - and Pact can grab mana too) it's pretty easy to do.

As for kills, you can use either the Bridge from Below plan, Sutured Ghoul + Lord of Extinction, or Reveillark -> flashback Cabal Therapy into Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite. Or any combination of those, I guess. It's a pretty flexible deck really.

Here's a sample list:

4 Hermit Druid
4 Summoner's Pact
0-4 Worldly Tutor
4 Entomb

3-4 Narcomoeba
1-2 Dread Return
1 Reveillark
1 Pestermite
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Anger

4 Cabal Therapy
2-4 Thoughtseize
4 Pact of Negation

4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
0-4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Taiga

This is just a barebones list. You can actually forego some pieces like LED or Worldly Tutor in favor of more resiliency like a Bridge From Below, Sutured Ghoul + Lord of Extinction, and one of the Lorwyn Incarnations so you can still win if Anger gets removed somehow.

[dahcmai]

nope, when the game ends, all cards from all of that subgame's zones are shuffled in, including exile


Bah, you are right. They updated it to include that. Sad Face. I hadn't noticed since it got banned.

[Vacrix]

So Gush and Frantic search were just unbanned in Vintage. What does that mean for Legacy, if anything? I think that WotC might be testing the waters with Frantic Search to see if its safe to unban in Legacy. Thoughts? As a Solidarity player, I really want Frantic Search to be unbanned.

[(nameless one)]

So Gush and Frantic search were just unbanned in Vintage. What does that mean for Legacy, if anything? I think that WotC might be testing the waters with Frantic Search to see if its safe to unban in Legacy. Thoughts? As a Solidarity player, I really want Frantic Search to be unbanned.

Its funny because both cards were never banned in Vintage. Its actually mind-boggling if they actually meant it for Legacy. I mean they could have said: "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted" since they were restricted in Vintage.

Plus the fact that Gush as always been restricted in the format. It has been unrestricted only to be restricted again few months after its unrestriction. We'll see how this goes.

[Jander78]

Its funny because both cards were never banned in Vintage. Its actually mind-boggling if they actually meant it for Legacy. I mean they could have said: "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted" since they were restricted in Vintage.

Plus the fact that Gush as always been restricted in the format. It has been unrestricted only to be restricted again few months after its unrestriction. We'll see how this goes.
I'd be inclined to think they meant to say "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted", since they're both a bit too powerful in Legacy.

[(nameless one)]

I'd be inclined to think they meant to say "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted", since they're both a bit too powerful in Legacy.

Fair, I do think that the decks that would benefit from these cards are the current dominant decks: Merfolk and Madness.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Fair, I do think that the decks that would benefit from these cards are the current dominant decks: Merfolk and Madness.

Frantic Search is debatable in those decks. Although it would obviously make Solidarity uber-broken.
Gush, on the other hand, is way too good. When has a blue-based tempo deck not been a DTB/W?

[alderon666]

Find better examples then, because i'm not scared by a colorless dark ritual. If you're so sure Vault would be broken, find better examples (like a list) or play me on MWS or something. Because you're not convincing me or anyone else by using Vault as a colorless ritual in your examples. Also, history showed me that Vault was busted in decks like Tinker, Academy or Stax, none of them is actually present in Legacy.
Just to say, in current Vintage, the Mana Vault slot in combo is often debated, and some people actually run Cabal ritual (iirc Smemmen prefer to run Vault in his storm decks) before it since it sinergize better with a lot of cards in your graveyard and YagWill, plus colored casting costs. Vault is usually an auto-include only if you play FoF or Gift. Also, since Vault is better in Brown decks, i actually think that the eventual unban of it would nerf combo, not buff it, by making prison actually viable in the format.
Not that i advocate the unbanning of it right before the printing of a big artifact set that could bring brown to a playable level even in Legacy.



Vault wouldn't even be played in SnT decks and SnT can easily be played on turn two with no need of it. The examples that were listed showed a Vault used like a colorless Dark Ritual.
I'll repeat, i'm sure Vault would be played, but i can't see a single deck broken by it. Belcher would just be improved by it, but it would still just too inconsistent compared to storm (read; worse), unless there's something i can't see when i try it and when i play storm. The large majority of deck doesn't even have a card with 3 colorless in its mana cost. If someone want to test a decklist with me on MWS to prove me wrong i'll be glad, seriously.

EDIT: completely forgot about AdN costing 3BB and not 2BBB. Lol k. Card is bonkers.

The deal with the Mana Vault is that Dark Ritual is too good. A colorless version of it is less good, but it still is awesome. Also the fact that you can play it and pass the turn, effectively storing mana for the next turn, should not be overlooked.

Just take the simple example:
Turn 1 - Swamp, Mana Vault, go
Turn 2 - Underground Sea, Ad Nauseam

Not a godly hand or anything, but it did make your Wild Nacatl look stupid. The fact that you can play it in conjunction with Dark Ritual makes it even better, effectively making your Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual(Mana Vault), Ad Nauseam hand much more common.

Oh crap, just imagine how good it is with LED and IT:

Turn 1 - Swamp, Mana Vault, go
Turn 2 - Underground Sea, LED, Duress, Infernal for AdN

When you play it and pass the turn it's almost a Dark Ritual + 1 because you get to use your land. The fact that it's colorless does make a huge difference, but the is meaningless when compared to its power.


On the Druid:

I don't think it should be unbanned. We have enough combos as it is, and unlike other this is a 1 card combo that doesn't create great deckbuilding restrictions.

[Dark Ritual]

Frantic Search is debatable in those decks. Although it would obviously make Solidarity uber-broken.
Gush, on the other hand, is way too good. When has a blue-based tempo deck not been a DTB/W?
Tempo/Canadian thresh is no longer tier 1 and that is an example of a blue based tempo deck. However if gush were unbanned in legacy canadian thresh would play it as a 4 of immediately in place of the ponder slot due to it protecting their lands in response to a wasteland activation on tropical island or something, effectively a. call like CA at the cost of bouncing 2 lands in a deck running 18 lands.

Sigh they didn't unban land tax or earthcraft yet again. Why wizards why do you persist in keeping land tax on the banned list? The card is perfectly safe for legacy with this format being as fast as it is.

[jrsthethird]

Tempo/Canadian thresh is no longer tier 1 and that is an example of a blue based tempo deck. However if gush were unbanned in legacy canadian thresh would play it as a 4 of immediately in place of the ponder slot due to it protecting their lands in response to a wasteland activation on tropical island or something, effectively a. call like CA at the cost of bouncing 2 lands in a deck running 18 lands.

New Horizons, Next Level Thresh, and Team America are blue-based tempo decks that have potential to be tier 1 if they were played more. In my meta in particular, NH is pretty much the DTB. Gush would be pretty sick in each one of these decks.

Actually, Gro-based threshold would be the nuts with Lorescale Coatl and Quirion Dryad; it's pretty easy to imagine what a post-Gush era tempo deck would look like (with or without a splash), and it would be nuts, especially with Jace around. You think Terravore is huge? Gush, Brainstorm, and Jace-fueled Coatls will be all over the place.


Sigh they didn't unban land tax or earthcraft yet again. Why wizards why do you persist in keeping land tax on the banned list? The card is perfectly safe for legacy with this format being as fast as it is.

Why don't you people understand that Land Tax is not banned for power level reasons!?! It's banned because it makes the game UNFUN. You drop T1 Land Tax, your opponent will never want to drop a second land for the rest of the game. It breaks the fundamental rule of Magic (let's play spells to try to kill our opponent) on turn 1. Sure, other cards influence game play in a similar way, but they're expensively costed and awkward. Same thing as Oath of Druids.

[Tinefol]

Why don't you people understand that Land Tax is not banned for power level reasons!?! It's banned because it makes the game UNFUN. You drop T1 Land Tax, your opponent will never want to drop a second land for the rest of the game. It breaks the fundamental rule of Magic (let's play spells to try to kill our opponent) on turn 1. Sure, other cards influence game play in a similar way, but they're expensively costed and awkward. Same thing as Oath of Druids.

Why don't we ban Weathered Wayfarer on the spot?

[Vacrix]

Why don't we ban Weathered Wayfarer on the spot?
Why not? Because Legacy has creature removal. Enchantments are much more difficult to remove. I'm all for unbanning Land Tax though.

Okay so they were unrestricted, my bad thats what I meant to say. Frantic Search looks alright in Merfolk and Madness. Its a great free card filter but it can only be played turn 3 provided you hit all three land drops, which is a little slow for Legacy. I'd think that Madness would prefer Careful Study to Frantic Search because you can filter earlier and you can actually take advantage of BS + Careful Study on turn 2 instead of BS + Frantic Search on turn 4. Also, Merfolk would have a tough time finding slots for Frantic Search.

I don't think Frantic Search would make Solidarity 'uber-broken'. At best the deck will now actually be able to win on turn 3 (maybe turn 2), but DDFT has been doing that for years. The only difference is that Solidarity can play FoW; its still weak against Counterbalance.dec.

[jrsthethird]

Why don't we ban Weathered Wayfarer on the spot?

Basically, it's because no one is scared of Weathered Wayfarer. You can get away with playing a couple lands and not losing the game because you know that Wayfarer is not much better than Bob in the decks that abuse him. He gets you an extra card every turn; powerful, but not broken. For reasons why Wayfarer is inferior to Land Tax:

Creature removal: Land Tax is harder to kill, with very few 1cc answers. There are tons of 1 or 2 mana answers to a creature.

Costs W to activate: Land Tax costs a 1 mana investment and then sits there with no further investment. Ask anyone who's ever played with/against Sylvan Library how awesome this effect is. Wayfarer needs to tap and pay W for it, it's a small price to pay but it sets you behind a turn in your curve if you want to take advantage of it early. There's a reason it's really only played in UW Tempo; you have Daze and Fathom Seer, in addition to fetches, to help make sure you can activate him.

Only gets one land: The biggest difference. Getting 3 basic lands a turn is awesome when you can take advantage of it with Brainstorm, Jace, Scroll Rack, etc., while giving you an automatic shuffle effect. Sure, you can do it with Wayfarer but you lose 2 cards.

[Vacrix]

On the other hand, Wayfarer finds Wasteland and Land Tax can only find basics.

[jrsthethird]

True, but each time you Waste them, you make your Wayfarer weaker by cutting your opponent's lands.

Wayfarer is a much more skill-intensive card, on both sides of the board. Land Tax is just stupid and says "look at me, you can't play any more lands unless I get a free Ancestral Recall". It's like Standstill every turn.


Also, I'm not arguing that Land Tax is overpowered (this is obvious, but Legacy is full of overpowered cards). I'm arguing that it makes the game unnecessarily slow and unfun. The format would be able to handle Land Tax but not many people would enjoy it.

[perm]

Land tax is almost worthless on it's own. the CA you get is dead weight. You need something like a manabond etc to abuse it. You get a hand inflated with basic lands, that's it.

And earthcraft probably wouldn't even see play if unbanned. Frantic search, i wouldn't lose much sleep over.

And again, tarmogoyf is just too good a creature. It is the definition of a format warping card. If anyone familiar with legacy asked you what the term format warping means, just say "tarmogoyf" instead of defining it.

[keys]

And again, tarmogoyf is just too good a creature. It is the definition of a format warping card. If anyone familiar with legacy asked you what the term format warping means, just say "tarmogoyf" instead of defining it.

I think this is changing. Vengevine Survival may be the first but it certainly won't be the last green aggro deck to run without Goyf. I've seen Loam decks cut him as well. Goyf has a lot of competition from Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, and Countryside Crusher. As more sets get released, this list will continue to grow.

[TheCramp]

I would play frantic search in a heartbeat, I love that card. I would play it in faerie stompy, since pitching lands in a deck with crucible of worlds is sick.
I'll (uselessly?) point out that 'goyf has not won a 5k or a GP, or even put a disproportionate number of decks into the top 8, in quite a while. As someone who likes to design decks, wasteland is far more restrictive than goyf, I sort of assume my opponent will have threats, and plan accordingly. Having to work around a totally variable curve depending on match up is much more challenging. Frankly Aether Vile + Wasteland + FoW feels much more unfair, and that deck is, you know, fair. 'Goyf is really good. Best ever. But this is legacy, "best ever" is the CURRENCY of legacy, you know what I mean?

[perm]

Lol, the reason why goyf is losing power that it had ~2 years ago is because people are maindecking fucking Mind Harness because tarmogoyf. The value of removal/control spells is equal to how good they are at dealing with tarmogoyf. Threads of disloyalty, smother, mind harness. This is what format warping means. When you see cards like mind harness being played because of ONE CARD. T-goyf eclipses like 50 green creatures because it is just too undercosted of a creature. It should be 1GG and it would still see play.

[heroicraptor]

Goyf has a lot of competition from Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, and Countryside Crusher. As more sets get released, this list will continue to grow.

All three of those require you to do something other than play the game of magic to be threatening.

[TheCramp]

KotR does not require you to do a damn thing. Put Fetches in your deck? You do that anyway. Zoo runs Knight, as does Loam. Also, there was not one mind harness, smother, or Threads in the top 8s of GP Madrid, Columbus, any of the SCG Opens, MTGO champs, that I just now looked at. So if people are deciding to warp their decks around 'Goyf, and they might be, it's the wrong decision. No one is winning that way, and most are winning without 'goyf at all.

Edit: SO, I was just looking at the Baltimore results, and the 2nd place deck ran 3 Mind harnesses side, and no 'goyfs anywhere. This made me chuckle. Eating my words and being right all at once.

[AriLax]

If anything, Tarmogoyf is good for the overall health of the format. It helps the fair decks that actually fight the unfair ones put up a fight against the fair decks that have decided not to. One of the best ways to try to beat Zoo is only fight one of their groups of creatures (one drops or Goyfs/Knights) with your spells and hold the others with Goyfs with the eventuality of outdrawing them and winning the Goyf fight.

[Cenarius]

The only card I would like to see banned is Show and Tell. U all know why....

[Cabal_chan]

If anything, Tarmogoyf is good for the overall health of the format. It helps the fair decks that actually fight the unfair ones put up a fight against the fair decks that have decided not to. One of the best ways to try to beat Zoo is only fight one of their groups of creatures (one drops or Goyfs/Knights) with your spells and hold the others with Goyfs with the eventuality of outdrawing them and winning the Goyf fight.

The use of the terms 'fair' and 'unfair' are poor and misleading in a game where the object is to win, not to mention they are completely subjective.

[perm]

Better terms are "balanced" and "unbalanced". An unbalanced card warps decks and formats around it. Extreme examples would be oath of druids or black lotus. In the first case, most decks would be oath or decks that are designed to beat oath. The second card would be run in every single deck if cost was not a factor.

[Meekrab]

Gush, on the other hand, is way too good.
Agreed, but for a different reason. The card pretty much says: "Add 1 mana to your mana pool: Draw two cards." Fetchland Tendrils with Gush would be like a high school football team starting Adrian Peterson.

I'm excited to see what Vintage players do with those two cards, though. AFAIK they aren't even regularly played as 1ofs anymore?

[keys]

All three of those require you to do something other than play the game of magic to be threatening.

I was talking about Loam decks... ?

Creatures that often beat Goyf (off the top of my head):

Tombstalker
Vampire Nighthawk
Vengevine
Rhox War Monk
Knight of the Reliquary
Countryside Crusher
Terravore
Coralhelm Commander
Stingscourger
Gathan Raiders
Jotun Grunt

Goyf is still the most undercosted fatty in the format, but he's not always the best.

[Tangle.Wire]

"I believe there will be a time" where they unbann anything else than ante cards and also give every card of any set a restriction, people will see what decks are really the best by running 60+ highlander decks with the ability to play any card they want.


Its the most possible fair format at all, while restrictions normally balances the outsourcing of playing multiple copies of a card, i also like the idea of of playing every card of the deck only 1 time (don't reminding recursion). Reminding ugly combos beeing able to play i think this can't be the judgement as everyone would have access to the same cardpool and also there won't be a deck to beat as there are to many ways to win. Saying this is insane because creature based decks won't win in such a format is stupid since i noticed that every deck has its own deck to beat, WotC won't bann krosan grip just because it hurts my dreadnoughts.... think about!

I personally don't mind if i lose against a first turn dredge assault, first turn storm assault or either necropotence/firestorm if i wasn't able to beat it thats it.

[Gheizen64]

Aside from the speculation from Venge/Survival, do you think something will get unbanned in case they ban something to make up for it? Twist and Tax are two bad cards still on the list for no reason and i see absolutely no harm if they unban them. And ok.
But maybe they will give us something to make up for the lost creature-combo deck? Maybe Earthcraft or Druid? Earthcraft would go in ench for a slightly easier win cond with Mesa probably, or probably no. Honestly i see Earthcraft as another pretty mediocre card.
Druid is more debatable, but it has similarities to current survival; it need 1G and then untap with G instead of GGG to win on the spot, however survival has:

- a better alternate plan (beatdown)
- a way better mana base (can run basics)
- less vulnerability to creature removal
- no need to run useless cards to make the combo work
- no summoning sickness

Druid look to me as a worse version of survival nowadays and is way better hated out with simple creature removal. Imho Druid could be a sort of a "replacement" for survival in case it end banned. The combo are of similar speed and they have similar consistency but Survival seems way better to me (am i missing something?).

Or they could be crazy and unban Bargain or Mana Vault lol.

[(nameless one)]

Its funny how none of the cards in the poll ever got the axe with the previous B/R updates that we've had.

And yes, I think I am going to start tinkering with a Parfait deck just in case Land Tax gets unbanned.

[swoop]

Afaik Land Tax was mentioned by WOTC as a card that deteriorates magic "rules" too much, as it makes players NOT play lands
by plan, rather then by some tactic, so they said no-no.

[(nameless one)]

That's really unfortunate because dredge should be on top of that category.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I still want Desire or Frantic off.
Especially since I have playsets of both.
Let's say Desire got taken off: How high would its price go?

[lordofthepit]

I still want Desire or Frantic off.
Especially since I have playsets of both.
Let's say Desire got taken off: How high would its price go?

Maybe $4-5 at best, after initial speculation. Combo pieces (like Ad Nauseam and Doomsday) don't fetch very much, and both can be had for under $1.

[Meekrab]

The difference though, is that Ad Nauseam and Doomsday are 1 or 2-ofs in almost every build. Desire would be played as a 4-of. And the deck is lots easier to play than TES or AnT ever could be.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Either way, I learned my lesson with Monolith. I got the last one on TnT before the price shot up. Buying things on the Legacy banlist is never a bad idea if there's a chance it'll come off. Oh, and Metalworker didn't net me any profit, and I grabbed a set of those like 2 months before it was off.
Oh, and I got Power Artifact the same night that Monolith was announced. More profit.
The Unbanhammer is a wonderful thing

[kevin.f.brewer]

I'm all for removing several banned cards and/or adding a restricted list to allow some cards at a safe level. A card should be pretty busted to stay banned, and let the players and the metagame sort things out.

[swoop]

Skullclamp please?

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Why isn't Show and Tell in this poll? A card that allows random wins with Emrakul should be banned, period. It's not even good, it's just random.

[DragoFireheart]

Why isn't Show and Tell in this poll? A card that allows random wins with Emrakul should be banned, period. It's not even good, it's just random.

Because it loses to:
Sower of Temptation
Humility
Oblivion Ring
Gilded Drake


I'm almost tempted to optimize a burn deck to take advantage of the meta. The death of Counterbalance means that burn can thrive while everyone focuses on yard hate (which does nothing to burn).

[(nameless one)]

Skullclamp please?

As much as I love the Crazy88 engine, I don't see Clamp getting the yes anytime sooner.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Because it loses to:
Sower of Temptation
Humility
Oblivion Ring
Gilded Drake



Well, that's no valid reason. Show and Tell is a dumb card that puts dumb Emrakul into play. All you need is to have both in your hand. I don't know about you but I really hate to lose to extreme randomness.

[DragoFireheart]

Well, that's no valid reason. Show and Tell is a dumb card that puts dumb Emrakul into play. All you need is to have both in your hand. I don't know about you but I really hate to lose to extreme randomness.

Stop playing cards game then?

[swoop]

As much as I love the Crazy88 engine, I don't see Clamp getting the yes anytime sooner.

with all the stupid ideas, I hoped mine wouldn't be noticed ^^ :D

[pippo84]

LOL!!!

Look at the poll above and you will see that players just complain about everything and always!!

A few months ago this poll was opened and now?? Survival Vengevine is everywhere and CB is almost nowhere!

MOG ban that Sensei's Divining Top, that Standstill and that...

Just an example of how people just moan all the time.

Adapt to the metagame that evolves.

[Gheizen64]

The difference though, is that Ad Nauseam and Doomsday are 1 or 2-ofs in almost every build. Desire would be played as a 4-of. And the deck is lots easier to play than TES or AnT ever could be.

Seriously, Desire is so much more resilient it isn't even fun. If anything i'd unban Time Spiral before it.

[DragoFireheart]

Will Survival of the Fittest be banned?

Should Survival of the Fittest be banned?

[GGoober]

I just Lol'd at the thread looking at the B/R poll. Where's Survival of the Fittest??? Goes so much to show that the card was just fine for the longest time, until Vengevines showed up.

[dahcmai]

Check the date on the first post and you'll see why it's not on there.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Check the date on the first post and you'll see why it's not on there.

That basically was what he was saying. That it has always been fine, and then Vengevine showed up. But anyway, I've really had enough of this discussion. It almost seems like it's the only thing that happens in Magic right now. I hope they'll ban neither of them and I actually think they won't.

[GGoober]

Yeah that's what I meant. Since the opening post is old, Survival was not on the list aka it was not a problem until VV came in. Will it be a problem after? That's for the metagame to tell. And I know how to combat Vengevival, it takes a different approach, which I believe not a lot of people are willing to learn and shift their mentality and strategies to accomodate the change.

[ramanujan]

I have this wierd feeling that they are going to unban mana vault. Just wanted to say it now so that if it happens then I can look good.

On survival. I am sick of hearing everyones opinion on the topic. I understand the issue. I am now going to ignore any thread on the topic. I will see what wizards thinks and proceed from there. The survival topic has gotten to be out of hand. This is worse than tier arguements.

[Dia_Bot]

I don't think they will unban mana vault but who knows? :)

On survi: QFT! I wish the B/R announcements were tomorrow so we could just all drop the subject and move on. But I'll guess we'll just have to go through another month of speculations. :P

[Valrina]

After unbanning Grim Monolith Vault would be the next step...

i dont think they will do since it is too undercosted...but if they do, I will love it.

Actually I think since some month they maybe unbann Mana Drain but then... I think they will simply not do because the card is to rare/expensive.

Shaby reason I know but Imagine where the Price would be if its unbanned.

Some Friends of mine think FR will be unbanned, I hope that will not happen because I dont want to see another strom deck back in the meta..though that maybe would also happen if Mana Drain gets unbanned.

I am unsure if I think Sur should be banned, for me following the line that wizards also has...which reads...combo should not be a format defining top deck, something out of Ichorid needs to be banned, because here where I play its clearly dominating combo. I am not sure what to ban from it I have to admit, but lets hope Wizards does something about it.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I vote that Wizards unbans Worldgorger Dragon so all of the various cards I own that are components to the deck go up in price.

[Sims]

I am unsure if I think Sur should be banned, for me following the line that wizards also has...which reads...combo should not be a format defining top deck, something out of Ichorid needs to be banned, because here where I play its clearly dominating combo. I am not sure what to ban from it I have to admit, but lets hope Wizards does something about it.

I mean no offense in this, but then your meta needs to really adapt. Dredge is a strong deck and as much as Frogboy might disagree with me, I still feel it's very fragile and doesn't have the staying power people hope for. It doesn't put up good results at large scale tournaments do to it's own inconsistencies (bad dredges anyone? I know they've happened to me) as well as the fact that hate for it is everyone since a good portion of the vengevine hate doubles as Dredge hate. Nothing in it needs to be banned.

I'll make a conjecture that your meta is still evolving? I have no idea what the Belgian, or your local meta, is like... but the only time I remember dredge being a defining force in my or most metas was during development when people were just giong for the cheapest deck they could get that has the most bang for the buck. Since then, however, it's really been more of a surprise deck... go weeks or months at a time without seeing it and then when everyone starts relaxing, break it out and vomit zombies onto people.

[codegeass]

When is the next banning update going to take place? What time do they post it? Also where will it first be posted at?

[luma]

When is the next banning update going to take place? What time do they post it? Also where will it first be posted at?

December 20th on DailyMTG.

[codegeass]

December 20th on DailyMTG.

I thought it was going to be on dec 1st that's what they said on mtgsalvation.

[(nameless one)]

We keep talking about SotF getting in the ban list, what about cards that could get unbanned?

Any speculations/discussions?

[Volrath]

I thought it was going to be on dec 1st that's what they said on mtgsalvation.

No, Evan Erwin said it was on the 1st of december.

Also, Evan is a dumbass, with all the Legacy know-how of a feeble-minded child with a penchant for blow dryers, water and bathtubs.

[codegeass]

No, Evan Erwin said it was on the 1st of december.

Also, Evan is a dumbass, with all the Legacy know-how of a feeble-minded child with a penchant for blow dryers, water and bathtubs.

Ya your right i just called WOTC they told me the next banning would be dec 20th. Also I asked them what his thought were on banning SOTF. He said he can not comment on it but he did say he think's it is a good card. did anyone get any inside from that comment?

[Fuzzy]

Ya your right i just called WOTC they told me the next banning would be dec 20th. Also I asked them what his thought were on banning SOTF. He said he can not comment on it but he did say he think's it is a good card. did anyone get any inside from that comment?

I get it. They're testing cards in MTGO again and they think it is a good card.

[codegeass]

Again someone is saying the banning and unbaning update is taking place on dec 1st on mtgsalvation. Why is that when i called WOTC and they told me that it is not until dec 20th? Dose mtgsalvation get the update sooner then everyone else, or what and if so where can we find the update?

[Jim Higginbottom]

It used to be that updates happened on the first. Not everyone got the memo that it isn't like that anymore.

[Koby]

Again someone is saying the banning and unbaning update is taking place on dec 1st on mtgsalvation. Why is that when i called WOTC and they told me that it is not until dec 20th? Dose mtgsalvation get the update sooner then everyone else, or what and if so where can we find the update?

Because MTGsalvation is just as feeble minded as Evan Erwin. The two are a perfect couple.

Also,

If they unrestricted Necropotence on MTGSalvation, at least a third of the people would go, "Lol, why would I pay life just to draw cards? That's exactly what the burn player wants." These aren't the best players in the world...

[Mana Drain]

The last page of this thread looks like it was copy-pasta'd from 4chan.

For thread relevance, +1 for LED.

[codegeass]

I no rite cuz i paid 200 dolars for my STOFS and then another 150 dolars for my vengevines now i think vengevine is a really card but i don't think it should be banned what do you think. i mean i payed 900 for a hole reanimation deck but they had to go and ban MT, omg im so mad. but wat do u think i shuld do cuz i dont wannan sell my cards i just want mtg to be my lyfe.




Btw, the first night that he posted the Revised Duals/Fire & Lightning reprint thread, I made this .gif. I didn't have the heart to leave it up so I took it down... perhaps I regret this decision. Meh.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1417/codegeass.gif

Hilarious I really did want to see the video you made of me thanks. Proves how wortless your life's really are. By the way i have alway's been aware of Revised Reprint Policy, and that none of the cards in the lighting and fire deck where on it. I was just trying to point out how much affordable WOTC is trying to make legacy

[majikal]

Why are you mad, bro? Just be easy.

[codegeass]

Why are you mad, bro? Just be easy.

I just want to get back to talking about mtg, instead of everyone taking a crack at me. now that you are being reasonable what is your opinion on banning SOTF?

[Mr.C]

With all this talk of LoA getting unbanned, why not unban Mishra's Workshop? I think we could fit it in a Stax shell...

[codegeass]

With all this talk of LoA getting unbanned, why not unban Mishra's Workshop? I think we could fit it in a Stax shell...

Isn't Mishra's Workshop a little to broken for legacy? I mean it is a vintage staple? I do not know the card combo's because the only format i play is legacy. But i have seen it played for fun in a vintage deck a couple of times.

[codegeass]

Wow I just saw a SOTF sell for $25 on ebay. Wish i would have been able to grab it. It is amazing how low they are selling for right now, even when most intelligent player do not think it will be banned or rather dose not deserve to be banned. But WOTC is not know for making smart decisions.

[kiblast]

Isn't Mishra's Workshop a little to broken for legacy? I mean it is a vintage staple? I do not know the card combo's because the only format i play is legacy. But i have seen it played for fun in a vintage deck a couple of times.

he was joking.

edit: 'shop in a fun deck? lolz. couple of times? lolz.

[codegeass]

he was joking.

edit: 'shop in a fun deck? lolz. couple of times? lolz.

Wow that is the second time have not got that someone was joking. I do not have sense of humor i guess. Well thanks for not taking a crack at me unlike everyone else, Just because i can't tell what joke is.

[(nameless one)]

Thats it. This is crazy...

This will be the obligatory unban Land Tax post.

Is the card that broken? When it terms of stalling the game (without getting infractions), its as good as Landstill. Besides, don't you get infractions for purposely slowplaying ala Saito?

Yes, its really good with Scroll Rack but Counterbalance is just as good as with Sensei's Divining Top.

Is it too much to ask to play Parfait?

[Tacosnape]

Anyone else having a "Bye Vengevine Survival" party? If not, you can come to mine. Just bring your weight in hot chicks. 400+ pound guys welcome.

It's like New Years, only things actually change and get better.

[Doomsday]

Anyone else having a "Bye Vengevine Survival" party? If not, you can come to mine. Just bring your weight in hot chicks. 400+ pound guys welcome.

It's like New Years, only things actually change and get better.

Are you the same guy quoted in my sig? Play combo and HOPE to get matched up against survival.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Anyone else having a "Bye Vengevine Survival" party? If not, you can come to mine. Just bring your weight in hot chicks. 400+ pound guys welcome.

It's like New Years, only things actually change and get better.

Oh man, haven't you read my reply in the other thread? It's not Dec 1st, it's Dec 20th!

[Tacosnape]

Oh man, haven't you read my reply in the other thread? It's not Dec 1st, it's Dec 20th!

Ugh, are you serious? I thought they started doing that shit on the 1st. I need to pay more attention.

Oh well. Back to three more weeks of attempting to inch my way up the meaningless world Eternal rankings and trying to pass the cheaters who dwell within.

EDIT: Bring hot chicks anyway. I can keep them busy for 19 extra days.


Are you the same guy quoted in my sig? Play combo and HOPE to get matched up against survival.

Yes, well, then I started playing it, then ended up with my own build, then got good with it, then realized I'd never once had a Legacy deck I was more fearless going into a blind matchup with.

[Valrina]

Ugh, are you serious? I thought they started doing that shit on the 1st. I need to pay more attention.

Oh well. Back to three more weeks of attempting to inch my way up the meaningless world Eternal rankings and trying to pass the cheaters who dwell within.

EDIT: Bring hot chicks anyway. I can keep them busy for 19 extra days.



Yes, well, then I started playing it, then ended up with my own build, then got good with it, then realized I'd never once had a Legacy deck I was more fearless going into a blind matchup with.

So you didnt play flashhulk ^^

Still I am not sure what I should think about banning surival... but I have to point out that it seems the center european meta adopted way better for VV as the american. Sure it also gets Top8 here but it doesnt dominate like that.

For some crazy reason as good as it adopted to VV , Dredge got dominant the same moment, which I dont really get why since plenty iof the usual hate espacilly unexperienced people use as a standard should hit both decks. Maybe its just a fluke for some weeks of lucky dredge players.

[Gui]

Yes, well, then I started playing it, then ended up with my own build, then got good with it, then realized I'd never once had a Legacy deck I was more fearless going into a blind matchup with.

So you are saying you are playing it now, and that it's too powerful... well, maybe that's some placebo effect =P

Not trying to compliment you, but your results could mean that you are a better player/deckbuilder than the ones you were playing against...

And why are you so certain that VV is the one getting banned?

BTW, it will be dec 20th then, right?

[DragoFireheart]

BTW, it will be dec 20th then, right?

Yes, Dec 20th.

No, neither card is going to get banned. The meta is simply not used to aggro-combo decks and is simply used to:

aggro-control > Counterbalance

Counterbalance > Storm

Storm > aggro-control

Once it adjusts, things will be alright. The meta will likely adjust to:



Vengevival > Counterbalance

Counterbalance > Storm

Storm > Vengevival

Well also have rogue decks of varying tier quality that can prey on two of the decks. I initially thought that Counterbalance will go away but I later re-thought that idea and decided that a large surge of combo decks will cause it to come back. However, Counterbalance will no longer be the deck of focus: it'll simply be capitalizing on the Vengevival rampage that will be stimulating Storm combo growth.

Let's take a look at our current "tier 1" decks on this site and see some of my theorycraft:

Vial Goblins
T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Ichorid
Vengevival
CounterTop
Merfolk
Zoo
Bant Aggro and Pro Bant
New Horizons


Vengevival is the current DTB due to how well it has been doing. Any combo based decks are pretty good against it as Veggie lacks enough disruption to stop them and they are simply faster.

Vengevival
Storm
Ichorid

Countertop decks will likely capitalize on the surge of Storm and other odd combo decks trying to beat Vengevival.

Vengevival
Storm
Ichorid
Countertop

Merfolk has good game against blue-deck and with wasteland, cursecatcher, daze, FoW and spell pierce can even give combo a run for it's money. It may not have the greatest game against Vengevival decks, but it can prey on the rest of the meta.

Vengevival
Storm
Ichorid
Countertop
Merfolk


Vial Goblins, Zoo, Bant Aggro / Pro Bant and New Horizons will likely be pushed out as they don't have favorable games against BOTH Vengevival and Storm. Just about any sideboard you use for Vengevival is worthless against Storm, and vice versa. Mid-range decks like the ones listed above are going to eventually be the absolute worse choice for the new meta. No longer will the meta be about making an uber mid-range deck to fight countertop and simply hope to avoid storm decks. No, there will be too much storm and other combo decks and sideboarding for them means less slots for the Vengevival matchup.

[(nameless one)]

If Merfolk are just preying on the rest of the meta, wouldn't Zoo and Goblin be in there too? Both decks are optimal against Merfolk and whatever Control decks are present in the DTB.

[Tacosnape]

No, neither card is going to get banned.

Vengevival
Storm
Ichorid
Countertop
Merfolk



So your argument is that it's okay to have a format where Red doesn't exist except for Burning Wish and/or Firespout?


So you are saying you are playing it now, and that it's too powerful... well, maybe that's some placebo effect =P

Not trying to compliment you, but your results could mean that you are a better player/deckbuilder than the ones you were playing against...

And why are you so certain that VV is the one getting banned?

It's not too powerful because I'm playing it. I'm playing it because it's too powerful. I'm a pretty good deck designer, but I'm only a good player when I'm awake and focused, which is about half the time. If I'm sleepy, I play like shit. I still win with this deck when I'm sleepy.

And I'm not entirely certain Vengevine will be the one getting the axe. I think it -should- be Vengevine getting the axe. But I've got decklists for post-Survival Vengevine and post-Vengevine Survival both ready and waiting on the results.


So you didnt play flashhulk ^^

Touche. In my defense, Flash Hulk was a far bigger atrocity than Survival or probably anything we'll ever see in the format again, and after multiple long naked therapy sessions with two gorgeous lady psychs, I've managed to block out that Flash Hulk ever happened. So I can't say that I have any idea what you're talking about.

[Valrina]

Touche. In my defense, Flash Hulk was a far bigger atrocity than Survival or probably anything we'll ever see in the format again, and after multiple long naked therapy sessions with two gorgeous lady psychs, I've managed to block out that Flash Hulk ever happened. So I can't say that I have any idea what you're talking about.

Sounds like you blocked out the time when memory yar was legal also ^^

[DragoFireheart]

If Merfolk are just preying on the rest of the meta, wouldn't Zoo and Goblin be in there too? Both decks are optimal against Merfolk and whatever Control decks are present in the DTB.

Zoo and Goblins suck against combo and are not phenomonal against vengevival. They will be pushed out. Merfolk won't have to worry about them preying on it. Meanwhile, everyone is eventually going to play control that is good against storm, Vengevival, anti-vengevival decks, decks that can race Vengevival and Storm or decks that can prey on anything but vengevival. Zoo as I see it is a fast mid-range deck: not quite as quick as a Sligh or Burn deck but still quick. Goblins is a slower mid-range deck. Mid-range decks lose to combo and won't be able to handle both the Vengevival and combo matchup without having one suffer compared to the other.

The previous meta was mid-range aggro-control vs countertop vs combo. It's now shifting to fast aggro / aggro-combo (vengevival being the tier 1 choice) vs countertop vs combo. Countertop decks will drop for now but once storm and other combo decks kick it it will return.

As it stands now, the meta is Vengevival beats pet decks, along with people crying about it.

Again, this is all theory craft.


So your argument is that it's okay to have a format where Red doesn't exist except for Burning Wish and/or Firespout?

Goblins being the red deck of choice for tier 1 and nothing else only speaks of how weak the color is, not of how powerful Vengevival is and is not a fault of the Vengevival deck. If anything, fast Sligh/Burn decks can give Vengevival decks a run for their money and may be more viable now that there will be less Countertop decks.

tl;dr: Mid-range decks suck. Anything that sucks against both combo and vengevival is bad right now. Run vengevival, rouge anti-vengevival, combo, fast aggro or decks that can fight combo and the rogue decks.

[Tacosnape]

Sounds like you blocked out the time when memory yar was legal also ^^

Memory Jar's never been legal in Legacy.


Goblins being the red deck of choice for tier 1 and nothing else only speaks of how weak the color is, not of how powerful Vengevival is and is not a fault of the Vengevival deck.

Your argument is completely backwards. Goblins IS the premier red deck in the format, and now it's basically being pushed out by Vengevine Survival, which has a decent match against it, and is also ushering in more Storm Combo, which eradicates Goblins. Because of Vengevine Survival, playing Goblins is a terrible idea right now.

Furthermore, Zoo's getting pushed out by similar logic. Zoo gets puppy raped by Storm Combo, and struggles against Vengevine Survival.

Red is agreeably the worst color in Legacy. It has been for awhile. If not for Burning Wish, there would be months where you didn't see a top 8 deck packing any form of Red. My point is, why encourage a format evolution that makes it even worse?

[wcm8]

Nt

[DragoFireheart]

Your argument is completely backwards. Goblins IS the premier red deck in the format,


Which is bad since there is almost no other variety in the color of mono red for a viable tier 1 deck.



and now it's basically being pushed out by Vengevine Survival, which has a decent match against it, and is also ushering in more Storm Combo, which eradicates Goblins. Because of Vengevine Survival, playing Goblins is a terrible idea right now. Furthermore, Zoo's getting pushed out by similar logic. Zoo gets puppy raped by Storm Combo, and struggles against Vengevine Survival.

Goblins is mid-range. Zoo is a slightly faster mid-range. Vengevival beats mid-range. Combo beats mid-range. Goblins now sucks. Zoo now sucks.

This is known as a meta-shift. What is your point? To state the obvious? Just because mid-range decks are bad does not warrant a banning: it warrants a meta shift. By the way, fast burn or sligh decks can give Vengevival and storm a run for their money but are terrible vs mid-range and countertop. Also note that Lightning Bolt can kill just about every creature in many Vengevival decks. Isn't that interesting...




Red is agreeably the worst color in Legacy. It has been for awhile. If not for Burning Wish, there would be months where you didn't see a top 8 deck packing any form of Red. My point is, why encourage a format evolution that makes it even worse?

Because people want to use good cards. Red has very few good cards outside of those for Goblins and a select few for combo. This issue of red being bad has noting to do with vengevival and is a separate issue.

[wcm8]

Red doesn't offer much to legacy, true. But don't you think that has a lot to do with the inherent qualities of it's slice of the color pie? The red mechanics that work so well in a limited or standard environment don't work so well in the legacy card pool. The same could be said of white in vintage, whereas in Legacy white is a comparatively better color.

Unless red gets a new mechanic or the card quality goes up, I don't think we will see too much of red in legacy outside of goblins, zoo, or the occasional splash for fire spout and a few other fringe cards.

[keys]

This is known as a meta-shift. What is your point? To state the obvious? Just because mid-range decks are bad does not warrant a banning: it warrants a meta shift.

Wizards has said on multiple occasions that they try to avoid a metagame that is dominated by Combo. In fact it's the one archetype that they still hesitate to officially acknowledge as legitimate. Whether you agree or not, Survival is likely to be viewed as the Vengevine combo engine/enabler.

[DragoFireheart]

Wizards has said on multiple occasions that they try to avoid a metagame that is dominated by Combo. In fact it's the one archetype that they still hesitate to officially acknowledge as legitimate. Whether you agree or not, Survival is likely to be viewed as the Vengevine combo engine/enabler.

And Vengevine needs an attack phase to win. Wizards encourages wins that require a creature to be turned sideways for lethal. They are not likely to see it as a combo deck in the same sense that TES or Belcher are.

Storm combo doesn't need an attack phase and Countertop helps keep it in check.

Reanimator and ANT got hosed by the Mystical Tutor ban (which for those decks was basically a Vampiric Tutor).

Ichorid is kept in check by graveyard hate and loses to itself more than Storm does.

The rest of the combo decks are kept in check by aggro-control or control decks (Merfolk, Countertop, etc).

[Julian23]

Are banings also gonna be effectiv the day they come out (read: 20th december)?

[Sims]

Are banings also gonna be effectiv the day they come out (read: 20th december)?



We have chosen to change the schedule of banned and restricted list announcements. The new announcement dates will be March 20, June 20, September 20, March 20, June 20, September 20, and December 20 with effective dates of April 1, July 1, October 1, and January 1, respectively.


No, December's bannings will be announced on the 20th and then go into effect first of the year.

Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/17

[keys]

And Vengevine needs an attack phase to win. Wizards encourages wins that require a creature to be turned sideways for lethal. They are not likely to see it as a combo deck in the same sense that TES or Belcher are.
This statement is a complete contradiction. TES and Belcher both frequently win in the attack phase.


Storm combo doesn't need an attack phase and Countertop helps keep it in check.

Reanimator and ANT got hosed by the Mystical Tutor ban (which for those decks was basically a Vampiric Tutor).

Ichorid is kept in check by graveyard hate and loses to itself more than Storm does.

The rest of the combo decks are kept in check by aggro-control or control decks (Merfolk, Countertop, etc).

Congratulations, you have a basic understanding of the checks and balances of modern legacy combo.

Now, look at Survival's win %s against the field.

[Bigface]

Again, as many European players pointed out, Vengival isn't invincible. The meta can adapt. It always adapted ('cept for Flash, but dear God was it absurd). I do hope Wizards doesn't ban anything, expecially Survival. As I said in another post, that card is more than a card, it's a concept. Banning it would mean throwing a great part of Legacy's past and present brainstorming away.

Please, don't ban Survival. If you have to, ban Vengevine. It's not like Flash, where banning Hulk would have been quite pointless.

Also, as for LED, that would be downright stupid. As for now Storm Combo decks ala TES are perfectly fine, they don't need nerfing.

[majikal]

In regards to the earlier comment about WotC not wanting combo to be a pillar (too lazy to quote) - the context of this remark was in reference to Standard. Legacy can never be a format without combo because of the hugely diverse card pool. As more cards get printed, more interactions appear, and more combo decks are born. In fact, I'd venture to say that a large minority (if not an outright majority) of Legacy decks could be classed as combo decks in one way or another. Hell, even Goblins can combo off with Lightning Crafter + Skirk Prospector and Kiki Jiki.

I personally think it is too soon to properly assess the situation, and it could even do more harm than good - that's the problem with hasty bannings. You have to do a good amount of research to see what lurks just beneath the surface before you resort to such drastic measures. The last thing we need is for a new best deck to pop up and require yet another banning because its natural predators have been cut away. At any rate, after the huge uproar from banning Mystical Tutor earlier this year, perhaps they'll do the right thing for once and wait until the next announcement to make their move.

Don't get me wrong, it probably needs to be banned. But doing it now, just a few months after it has risen to dominance and before anyone has had an adequate chance to figure out how to attack it (kind of like when Dredge first appeared), would be monumentally stupid.

TL;DR - If I were WotC I'd wait until the next announcement.

[freakish777]

And Vengevine needs an attack phase to win.

So did Hulk-Flash.

[majikal]

So did Hulk-Flash.
Sure, versions that weren't able to kill turn 0 on the draw did.

[DuxDucis]

Read in to it what you will. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/119 (Chiba By The Dozen - Brian David Marshall)


10. The Survival of Legacy
The banned and restricted announcement will go up on December 20 as usual—after Worlds. If any player is going to come up with a strategy to beat the Survival of the Fittest decks that have been dominating the format then the Team Competition may be the last chance that they get to do so before it is defeated through legislation.

[Gheizen64]

Sigh. Damn broken Vengevine. Let's hope they'll unban some stupid card in exchange at least :(

[ddt15]

Instead of bannings, lets talk about unbannings for a moment; im in favor of unbanning:

- Goblin Recruiter
- Frantic Search
- Land Tax
- Gush?
- Time Spiral
- Earthcraft
- Mind Twist

[tsabo_tavoc]

Instead of bannings, lets talk about unbannings for a moment; im in favor of unbanning:
- Gush?


No, and never. So strong a combo enabler & CA. Vintage is a different environment where Jewelries are more popular than Islands and games end faster.

I am tinkering about people's reactions on this card, if printed

Survival of the Cruelist 1R
Enchantment Rare
R: Survival of the Cruelist deals 4 damage to target player. If the ability is activated the first time in a turn, counter it unless you discarded a creature card for the first time.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No, and never. So strong a combo enabler & CA. Vintage is a different environment where Jewelries are more popular than Islands and games end faster.

I am tinkering about people's reactions on this card, if printed

Survival of the Cruelist 1R
Enchantment Rare
R: Survival of the Cruelist deals 4 damage to target player. If the ability is activated the first time in a turn, counter it unless you discard a creature card.

LOL, this isn't make a card forum and that is way too broken in Legacy, forget standard.

[tsabo_tavoc]

LOL, this isn't make a card forum and that is way too broken in Legacy, forget standard.

LOL, I remember many claimed that if the opponent cannot deal with an Enchantment until turn3 and one has a creature in hand and GGGGG to spare, he deserves winning anyway.

[dontbiteitholmes]

LOL, I remember many claimed that if the opponent cannot deal with an Enchantment until turn3 and one has a creature in hand and GGGGG to spare, he deserves winning anyway.

Well, there is no Goblin Survival. With Survival you can handle the Graveyard, stop the attack, Humility, Extirpate, ect., and 90% of the time if you can keep Survival off the board they end up with a subpar creature deck. With the hypothetical card you just take the 4 weakest cards out of Goblins and it's an alternate win-con that avoids any common hate for Goblins. Instead of having to build a deck around the card you could just take an already good deck stick 4 of that in and make it completely bonkers. So yeah, apples and oranges but I see what he was trying to do there. Cute.

[Julian23]

BDM's announcement looks a lot like if there were to actually ban Survival. Goodbye buddy, it has been a great time until that stupid Vengevine came along and disrupted all the fun we used to have :-(

/edit: from Facebook:

Federico Fieni: B&R announcement will be on-line on december 20 but this morning with your article on WotC site you give us some hints...eBay is now full of SotF '-.-
BDM: I actually have no inside info on this one. Comment was based on players insisting that something needs to happen.

[DragoFireheart]

Read in to it what you will. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/119 (Chiba By The Dozen - Brian David Marshall)


10. The Survival of Legacy
The banned and restricted announcement will go up on December 20 as usual—after Worlds. If any player is going to come up with a strategy to beat the Survival of the Fittest decks that have been dominating the format then the Team Competition may be the last chance that they get to do so before it is defeated through legislation.

lmao, it sounds like they are hinting at banning it.

Edit: Nvm, just some pro spouting his inane opinion.

[mossivo1986]

I find it funny that all these survival ads on E bay are still at around 50$ a piece when the clear motive is to ditch them for some value while you can. One would think if you sold your survivals for less money then your likely to still make more then when they drop and while also selling quicker.

I could be wrong though, and survival could remain unbanned.

[DragoFireheart]

BDM's announcement looks a lot like if there were to actually ban Survival. Goodbye buddy, it has been a great time until that stupid Vengevine came along and disrupted all the fun we used to have :-(

/edit: from Facebook:

Federico Fieni: B&R announcement will be on-line on december 20 but this morning with your article on WotC site you give us some hints...eBay is now full of SotF '-.-
BDM: I actually have no inside info on this one. Comment was based on players insisting that something needs to happen.


Link for the edit?

[tomjulioo]

survival is going to be banned...

as for now, the format is ok (not even sure about that therefore)
but more they print cards, more the card can be broken, and leaving this card restrain the possibilities they have to build cards

i love the card for a lot of time (when the print it) and i'm sad to have to say that...

[DragoFireheart]

but more they print cards, more the card can be broken, and leaving this card restrain the possibilities they have to build cards


This is possibly the worst argument to use in any discussion. You can apply this to any argument. Hell, maybe someday WoTC will make an equipment card called "Sneak-a-goat" that cost 1 and 1 to equip that gives the equipped goats controller the ability to draw you 3 cards every time it taps, making god damn Mountain goat a good card or possibly broken card. Everyone would start using sneak-a-goat: the meta would resolve around sneak-a-goat and protecting sneak-a-goat. People would start using cards to supplement sneak-a-goat like Springjack Pasture. Everyone would be packing hate for it like Goatnapper so you could respond to the ability so you draw 3 cards instead.

IT'D BE CRAZY!

[(nameless one)]

Im holding on to my Springjack Pasture from now it. It could be the next Undiscovered Paradise

[Koby]

but more they print cards, more the card can be broken, and leaving this card restrain the possibilities they have to build cards


We don't have knowledge of the cards that are upcoming; only WotC does.
We don't have the power to dictate B&R choices; WotC does.

We do have the power to raise hell when they make dumb inconsistent decisions regarding both. (Mythics, Mystical Tutor, yearly core sets, etc)

[Mr.C]

After thinking a bit about it, I think WotC will ban Vengevine, and unban Land Tax.

Or maybe I'm just crazy. :)

[swoop]

Land Tax wont ever get unbanned.

WOTC stated that it is a card, that makes you negate one of basic MTG principles - playing lands.
Its not fun and etc..

[Julian23]

WOTC stated that it is a card, that makes you negate one of basic MTG principles

*sees Standstill and Counterbalance giggling in the corner*

[sco0ter]

*sees Standstill and Counterbalance giggling in the corner*

next to Stasis, Armageddon, Winter Orb and Chalice of the Void?

[lorddotm]

next to Stasis, Armageddon, Winter Orb and Chalice of the Void?

Smokestacks and Trinisphere are hollering with laughter.

In all honesty, in the face off Vengevine, the only thing that Wizards will do is ban LED, Vengevine lists run LED.

[FieryBalrog]

This is possibly the worst argument to use in any discussion. You can apply this to any argument. Hell, maybe someday WoTC will make an equipment card called "Sneak-a-goat" lol Goats lol

Apparently not, since your attempt at "application" is pretty terrible.

But really, try not to get too clever when informing us about the supposed slippery slope we're skidding down. The key to making an illustrative analogy lies in understanding what "analogous" means.

[bracer028]

What do you guys see as the next card wizards might unban?

i'm thinking mindtwist. since this card isn't that broken to begin with...

i know i know...dark ritual dark ritual mindtwist argument.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd love them to unban Mind Twist. I dunno. Necropotence doesn't seem that scary either. We have way more busted things that cost three mana and don't require you passing the turn.

[Lemnear]

Never played with Necro, huh? Tendrils would gladly drop their ad Nauseam and Chants to run Necro and Pitch-counter. This would break Legacy ...

[bracer028]

I'd love them to unban Mind Twist. I dunno. Necropotence doesn't seem that scary either. We have way more busted things that cost three mana and don't require you passing the turn.

having necro is just broken. cannot say the same with mindtwist though. but necro...its gonna get nasty.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Never played with Necro, huh? Tendrils would gladly drop their ad Nauseam and Chants to run Necro and Pitch-counter. This would break Legacy ...

That deck sounds awful.

[bakofried]

Necro does bad, bad things. Think Doomsday but without having to memorize the piles or set things up at all, really.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Considering you lose about one game in fivehundred where you go turn 1 Ritual, Necro and it resolves in a well-built deck, this doesn't seem like such a good idea. Honestly, barring P9 and Yawgmoth's Will there isn't anything more broken than Necro. And yes, that includes Tinker. The only thing making Tinker better even in Vintage is that you don't need triple black for Tinker.

[menace13]

That deck sounds awful.
Yeah, 4 Necro Storm sounds awful..... I mean, who pays 7 life for a new hand and passes the turn in order to win?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No, I can imagine decks where Necropotence is good, I just mean a storm deck with Necropotence sounds awful. ANT doesn't require you to pass the turn. I can imagine it going into a deck like SnT.




Considering you lose about one game in fivehundred where you go turn 1 Ritual, Necro and it resolves in a well-built deck, this doesn't seem like such a good idea. Honestly, barring P9 and Yawgmoth's Will there isn't anything more broken than Necro. And yes, that includes Tinker. The only thing making Tinker better even in Vintage is that you don't need triple black for Tinker.

I don't think Necro costing triple black is a feature exclusive to Vintage.

Your first sentence is also hyperbolic and obviously wrong.

Necro seems really good, which black doesn't have a ton of at the moment, being honest. I don't think it seems broken because it does cost triple black and it does require you to pass the turn. I'm pretty sure there's a couple dozen cards that are clearly much better, Bargain, Flash, Academy, Skullclamp, etc. being on that list.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Yes, it costing triple black is also the only reason it isn't in every single Vintage deck other than Stax and Dredge (which simply don't plan on casting colored spells).
Necro is not really a black card, despite costing BBB. Ever since it was understood, it's a pure combo-card. It's rather easy: Play as many ways to find it as possible and as many ways as possible to play it turn 1. Whenever it resolves, you win the game. If you want to make black better, Necro isn't the way. It's the perfect way to make any color-combination but UB (and maybe UB splash X) unplayable.

And if you think that statement is hyperbole, you clearly never played with Necropotence in well-built decks (well, maybe it's only 300 games). If you cast Necro turn one and it resolves, you'll only lose those games in which the next ~15 cards of your library don't contain either a way to win, a way to draw more cards or a way to gain more life. I've been playing Magic for 15+ years and I can count the number of games I've lost after resolving turn 1 Necro on my fingers alone. No joke, honest truth.
Not one of the cards you mention is as broken as Necro, Flash included. Skullclamp and Bargain are laughably bad compared to Necro (one filling your deck with crap aka X/1s, the other costing 6). Academy is significantly weaker because it needs more things to go right (enough artifacts, ways to profit from the mana and not fizzling of the typical outlets aka Time Spiral) and Flash comes close but means you need to cram your deck full of dead cards and you have to avoid drawing more than one of those cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, it can be filed down into a fine powder that serves as an aphrodesiac and cure for cancer.

It's hard to argue with pure hyperbole. How many ways exist in Legacy for you to tutor and cast a turn 1 Necropotence? I guess you can Dark Ritual out an Infernal Tutor with an LED and then drop him, but that's one mana away from being able to do the same thing with Ad Nauseam. The difference being that the Ad Nauseam player could just kill you that turn. I guess you're describing a Tendrils deck, but passing the turn after paying fifteen life seems like a poor strategy to win with in a Tendrils deck, especially one that's ever on the draw.

[menace13]

Also, it can be filed down into a fine powder that serves as an aphrodesiac and cure for cancer.

It's hard to argue with pure hyperbole. How many ways exist in Legacy for you to tutor and cast a turn 1 Necropotence? I guess you can Dark Ritual out an Infernal Tutor with an LED and then drop him, but that's one mana away from being able to do the same thing with Ad Nauseam. The difference being that the Ad Nauseam player could just kill you that turn. I guess you're describing a Tendrils deck, but passing the turn after paying fifteen life seems like a poor strategy to win with in a Tendrils deck, especially one that's ever on the draw.
IBA, You're bored and trolling..
Necro has different design restrictions than Ad Naus does. FoW being the most important, you can play Daze since Cabals, DRits and Petal will help you cast a 3cc faster and Duress as well. Necro lifeloss can be offset with Soul Spike and lower the storm count needed for lethal, keep out of burn/damage range for a turn or enable another Necro refill if first go around isn't enough.

Bargain seems more safe to me than Necropotence. It costs 6 and will draw less cards on avg compared to TES or ANT off Ad Naus(Necro is also subject to this). Yawgmoth's Bargain does put them in hand instantly negating the need to pass the turn for the win, unlike Necro.

Unbanning many other cards first would be better. Gush, Oath and Drains can at least go into control decks and not only Combo.

[Darth Nihilus]

i dont get why lackey is on the list when aethervial is clearly a 10x stronger

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

IBA, You're bored and trolling.

Nope.

I get tired of this. Are people really so intellectually lazy on the Source that anytime you propose something outside of the options they're prepared to consider, they merely accuse you of being insincere?

Suppose I was being insincere; that doesn't prove the point. It wouldn't change anything.


Necro has different design restrictions than Ad Naus does. FoW being the most important, you can play Daze since Cabals, DRits and Petal will help you cast a 3cc faster and Duress as well. Necro lifeloss can be offset with Soul Spike and lower the storm count needed for lethal, keep out of burn/damage range for a turn or enable another Necro refill if first go around isn't enough.

You're untapping next turn with storm back at zero and you want to make one of your seven a Force too? I mean I suppose it's possible, I'm just not seeing what's unstoppable here. There's a lot of crazy turn one plays with a lot of mana acceleration that run into a brick wall against Force. The biggest test of bustedness, I think, is how good they are if it takes you a few turns to assemble your cards. Does letting you run Force mark a drastic uptick over the strength of being able to win the turn you actually resolve your central spell? I don't know. I'd be curious to see. But this list doesn't sound unstoppable to me. It sounds like it has a real and legitimate weakness over current storm combo, and I could be wrong but I don't think the problem with the deck right now is that it has problems winning when Ad Nauseam resolves with plenty of life left to trade.


Bargain seems more safe to me than Necropotence. It costs 6 and will draw less cards on avg compared to TES or ANT off Ad Naus(Necro is also subject to this). Yawgmoth's Bargain does put them in hand instantly negating the need to pass the turn for the win, unlike Necro.

Unbanning many other cards first would be better. Gush, Oath and Drains can at least go into control decks and not only Combo.

The average cc of non-Ad Nauseam cards in most storm decks seems to be about 1, so I don't see where there's a large difference in cards drawn on averages; it would just reduce your ability to kill yourself trying to maximize cards drawn.

[menace13]

Nope.

I get tired of this. Are people really so intellectually lazy on the Source that anytime you propose something outside of the options they're prepared to consider, they merely accuse you of being insincere?

Suppose I was being insincere; that doesn't prove the point. It wouldn't change anything.



You're untapping next turn with storm back at zero and you want to make one of your seven a Force too? I mean I suppose it's possible, I'm just not seeing what's unstoppable here. There's a lot of crazy turn one plays with a lot of mana acceleration that run into a brick wall against Force. The biggest test of bustedness, I think, is how good they are if it takes you a few turns to assemble your cards. Does letting you run Force mark a drastic uptick over the strength of being able to win the turn you actually resolve your central spell? I don't know. I'd be curious to see. But this list doesn't sound unstoppable to me. It sounds like it has a real and legitimate weakness over current storm combo, and I could be wrong but I don't think the problem with the deck right now is that it has problems winning when Ad Nauseam resolves with plenty of life left to trade.



The average cc of non-Ad Nauseam cards in most storm decks seems to be about 1, so I don't see where there's a large difference in cards drawn on averages; it would just reduce your ability to kill yourself trying to maximize cards drawn.

Very Lazy.

There isn't any problem with Storm, it will always be one of the best decks if not the best. The problem I see is that these draw engines by and large only fuel combo decks. It would not be unstoppable, but it does offer an alternate combo engine with different design space. Drawing 15 and shooting Soul Spikes while crafting the optimal 7 is perfectly viable line of play. The FoW/Daze is used to stop their advances as well as protecting the Necro. Necro, once cast, assembling a hand of Tendrils with Rituals and Artifacts is the goal and FoW isn't needed to protect the Storm after.

The cost in cards drawn is always 1 per with Necro/bargain. Ad Naus decks have up to 12 0 cost mana producing artifacts and lands are always free draws.

[lorddotm]

I'd love them to unban Mind Twist. I dunno. Necropotence doesn't seem that scary either. We have way more busted things that cost three mana and don't require you passing the turn.

You're the Charlie Sheen of The Source.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A combo-control deck seems more likely to me. But while it would have greatly improved game versus blue decks over current storm, it'd get beaten up by Zoo on the averages. That seems fine to me, honestly.

Also Ad Nauseam puts a lot of pressure on you to stop drawing at five life or below, and the average cc of every non-Ad Nauseam card is still about 1. There may be games where you get a bunch of artifacts and lands you don't particularly need, but there's also going to be games where you die because you had to find a business spell and you hit all your high cc guys. Ad Nauseam is clearly a really good card but I'm pretty sure it's worse than Bargain.



You're the Charlie Sheen of The Source.

I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. I'm a little high right now. I'm on this drug, it's called Jack Mother-Fucking Elgin.

[morgan_coke]

c'mon iba, you know wizards already tried out unrestricted necro on mtgo in classic. it pwned the format until it got re-restricted. then it was just a real good deck again. if you want to make silly troll counter arguments, thats cool man, i do it all the time. one big key to it though, don't use topics where a factual contradiction is present. results of unrestricted necro tournaments on mtgo provide that factual contradiction here.

[lorddotm]

c'mon iba, you know wizards already tried out unrestricted necro on mtgo in classic. it pwned the format until it got re-restricted. then it was just a real good deck again. if you want to make silly troll counter arguments, thats cool man, i do it all the time. one big key to it though, don't use topics where a factual contradiction is present. results of unrestricted necro tournaments on mtgo provide that factual contradiction here.

He's on Jack Mother-Fucking Eglin. Good luck getting through to him. He has Goyf blood in him.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

c'mon iba, you know wizards already tried out unrestricted necro on mtgo in classic. it pwned the format until it got re-restricted. then it was just a real good deck again. if you want to make silly troll counter arguments, thats cool man, i do it all the time. one big key to it though, don't use topics where a factual contradiction is present. results of unrestricted necro tournaments on mtgo provide that factual contradiction here.

What was the cardpool like?

I didn't know that, that's fairly compelling actually. I don't really pay much attention to MODO though.

I'd also want to know what the format looked like after bannings; if it's still just stupid combo deck, the problem would be restricted enablers, not Necro itself.

[perm]

Necropotence is obviously a retarded card to unban.... 1 life for 1 card is just absurd.

Mind twist I can totally see being unbanned. It's not like black hand disruption has a stranglehold on the format

[Amon Amarth]

What was the cardpool like?

I didn't know that, that's fairly compelling actually. I don't really pay much attention to MODO though.

I'd also want to know what the format looked like after bannings; if it's still just stupid combo deck, the problem would be restricted enablers, not Necro itself.

That worked in the past... right?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ha, touche.

Well I don't seem to be winning that argument. Maybe just Mind Twist. And Worldgorger Dragon. And Goblin Recruiter.

[.nemesis]

As someone who has played his fair share of Necropotence in EDH and Vintage, I see no single way it can ever come off the B/R list.

It works like this:
1. resolve Necro Turn 1
2. set aside any number of cards from 7-10
3. let your opponent do something less broken, maybe FoW something if he has a Necro himself
4. unleash a shitstorm of disruption on your opponent with the freshly drawn rituals and Duress effects
5. pay another 7 life
6. untap, kill with Tendrils.

I've yet to lose a game where I had the power of Necro. It's one of the most broken cards ever printed with only stuff like Timetwister or Balance being on comparable power level.

Then, on the other hand, maybe they unban Balance at the same time, to help combat Necro decks... but they'd probably play it themselves. :/

[perm]

Goblin Recruiter is a really bad idea. Allowing them to basically stack their exactly how they want it, just by playing a goblin body

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sure if people are aware of the actual statistical difficulty in finding a turn 1 Necropotence even before every deck gets Mental Misstep. Motherfuckers seem to think it's a Leyline or something.

I'll say let it alone, but Christ, don't compare it to Flash or something.


Goblin Recruiter is a really bad idea. Allowing them to basically stack their exactly how they want it, just by playing a goblin body

I mean you just described what the card does, you didn't say why that's too powerful.

[perm]

That's because stacking your entire deck while getting a tribal creature is inherently too good, I don't need to say much beyond it doing what it does

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's because stacking your entire deck while getting a tribal creature is inherently too good, I don't need to say much beyond it doing what it does

http://i.imgur.com/ZXeBX.jpg

[Darth Nihilus]

time for dwarf tribal , since recruiters are so broken...


what people seem to forgett is that recruiter may stack his entire pile but that also means they wont draw any other cards of their deck , besides goblins, wich means no perish/krosan grip/lightning bolt and so on


also a resolved cb/top combo renders recruiter useless to some extend, not to mention if u attack their manabase and get their vial after thei play recruiter. i think hes save for an unban these days

[Amon Amarth]

Ha, touche.

Well I don't seem to be winning that argument. Maybe just Mind Twist. And Worldgorger Dragon. And Goblin Recruiter.

I'll bite! I think Mind Twist is a pretty obvious unban. It's not really that good against anything and is worse at selective discard like Duress and Co. and doesn't give you CA as easily as Hymn to Tourach.

I think on a strictly power level discussion Worldgorger Dragon is safe. The problem is that it can draw out games very easily if it's ever in a bad position and that's just not how WotC wants us to play Magic. It also screws up time limits in rounds because starting a new game can take awhile.

I'm much less sure about Recruiter. Best case scenario, it makes Goblins a little better. Worst case? Goblins becomes the Aggro archetype for Legacy. It's also a pretty good Combo deck too if it needs to function as such. Also, I haven't played with the card in forever but stacking your deck with all your Goblins can take up quite a bit of time so it might also fall under the SDT clause that got that card banned in Extended not so long ago. I'm erring on the side of "fuck it, unban it anyways" so I can play with my set. It's been too long.

[swoop]

Recruiter, Food Chain... and there goes the format

[perm]

you're right, that dwarven recruiter obviously needs to be banned, whats your point

[lavafrogg]

Everyone does know how food chain goblins work right?

[kiblast]

Mhh..Recruiter unbanned means that Rec+ Skirk Prospector easily let's you play almost half of your deck by turn 3, if you started with a Vial. Even better with Food Chain, you substantially play every goblin you have in library.Unfortunately ( or luckily, depends on how you see it) K Grip exists- I still don't really know if it is ok to unban. Mind Twist of course it is, and probably Gorger too would be ok. Necro of course not, I'd rather see Bargain or even Mind's Desire unbanned before Necro.

[Sims]

Mhh..Recruiter unbanned means that Rec+ Skirk Prospector easily let's you play almost half of your deck by turn 3, if you started with a Vial. Even better with Food Chain, you substantially play every goblin you have in library.Unfortunately ( or luckily, depends on how you see it) K Grip exists- I still don't really know if it is ok to unban. Mind Twist of course it is, and probably Gorger too would be ok. Necro of course not, I'd rather see Bargain or even Mind's Desire unbanned before Necro.

God I hate getting into these debates but, you do know Bargain is better than necro, right?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Bargain is way worse because it costs six, making it about the power-level of Ad Nauseam, though somewhat better because you don't have the cc-restriction and can therefore run FoW. Necro is seriously better than Flash. With Necro, your two card combo is Ritual, Necro and all you need are a few Tendrils or Illusions/Donate in your deck, cards you actually want to draw because they can win if you don't draw Necro or be pitched to FoW (in the case of Illusions/Donate). Not to mention your combo doesn't get disabled by drawing pieces of the wincon. With Flash your combo is Flash plus Hulk, with at least four cards in the deck you really don't want to draw.

The only thing that might make Bargain scary is Academy Rector.

/edit: @punkrocker: yeah, I was editing my post to be more clear. Sorry for the delay. I should also have mentioned the four Bargain thing, I guess. A resolved Bargain is sure better than Necro. Getting there is what makes Necro much more powerful.

[PunkRocker1134]

Bargain is way worse because it costs six, making it about the power-level of Ad Nauseam. Necro is seriously better than Flash.
The only thing that might make Bargain scary is Academy Rector.

That is very far from the truth. Bargain always nets you one card for one life, and allows you to have much more control. Ad Nauseam you are constantly guessing, Bargain, on the other hand, you know exactly how to handle things. Talking from my experience with Vintage Storm, Bargain is way better. You can also mini tendrils, draw a bunch more cards, and continue storming onwards, where as you can't with Ad Nauseam or Necro for that matter. Bargain makes LED much better also since you get to resolve your spell before cracking it. Rector is about the safest thing you can do with bargain.

Also, no way Necro is better than Flash. Flash is definitely the most degeranate thing Legacy has ever seen. Flash was the closest thing to a Vintage deck that was ever played in Legacy. Necro would be fantastic, definitely broken, but I don't think it'd be anywhere near as good as Flash.

edit: 6 isn't that hard to ramp up to in Storm when built around said card. One last thing, you want to play four Bargains, you don't want to play more than 2 Ad Nauseams

[kiblast]

God I hate getting into these debates but, you do know Bargain is better than necro, right?

Why Bargain should be better than Necro given the fact that has almost the same amount of specifical mana in its mana cost, but with 3 colorless more? In Vintage, you find yourself with 6 mana to spend way more often than in Legacy. In a vacuum, just by reading cards text, I agree with you. But there are opponents, too, and they won't let you reach 6 mana easily at your full life total.In Legacy the highest cc card that you can play in a storm based deck is Ad Nauseam. And if your deck is build properly to support Ad Nauseam, its cc curve makes Ad Nauseam at the same level of reliability of Bargain-1 card for 1 life. But, there is a huge difference between 5cc and 6cc in a storm combo deck- think about Ritual+ Ritual or Cabal Ritual with threshold.
If 6cc cards were playable easily in storm combo, Null Profusion would be tier1...

[kiblast]

Bargain always nets you one card for one life, and allows you to have much more control. Ad Nauseam you are constantly guessing, Bargain, on the other hand, you know exactly how to handle things.


You know what? check a standard ANT list. It's average cc is 0.8 (no Grim Tutor)-0.95 ( 1-2 Grim Tutors). I heard that 1 card for 0.8/0.95 life is better than 1 for 1. Plus, 5 cc against 6. Plus, Krosan Grip. Yeah, Vintage is Vintage...welcome to Legacy / sarcasm.

[Sims]

I'm not disagreeing with the 6 mana issue being an entirely different level than 5 in current storm decks, it's a huge difference. However, everything the poster above you said is also true. If you resolve a turn 2 bargain and still have roughly 17-20 life, there is no reason you shouldn't be winning right then and there. Null Profusion doesn't have the same "i win now" factor, because if you drop it turn 2, cast say 1 or 2 more cards from hand... you might draw into 2 lands. Discard to 2, pass the turn, pridemage, blow up profusion.... well shit. Necro has the same issue of opening you up to hate cause you can't win the turn you cast it.

With Bargain, you drop that turn 2 and there a significantly smaller chance of fizzling. Similar to how Tide decks don't fizzle very often when they begin to go off with Spiral. Tendrils decks would be built differently, they'd probably be a fuck ton more resilient as well, and they could be just as fast if not faster.

I really don't think that +1 mana would matter over AdN.

[PunkRocker1134]

You know what? check a standard ANT list. It's average cc is 0.8 (no Grim Tutor)-0.95 ( 1-2 Grim Tutors). I heard that 1 card for 0.8/0.95 life is better than 1 for 1. Plus, 5 cc against 6. Plus, Krosan Grip. Yeah, Vintage is Vintage...welcome to Legacy / sarcasm.

First of, I know Vintage is much different than Legacy. My point was, Storm with Bargain is much closer than Vintage storm. Grip matters much less when your going off before theres a big chance of it being active. It still is a concern. You also realize Necro is open to Grip too, right? This is the point I was making. While you get a fresh grip off Necro when its comes down turn 1 or turn 2, it gets Gripped and you're in the same place. Necro can't go off the same turn you play it.

You also mention the average life loss, and this is a valid point, however, there are fluctuation with AdN where as this isn't the case with Bargain. I phrased that poorly. I meant that Bargain is always 1-1 where as there is the previously mentioned fluctuation with AdN. As sims said, +1 mana isn't that important, although it would cause Storm decks to be built differently. Are you conceding my other points, because you failed to address them? Instead you decided to fall back upon sarcasm. (I just reread my above post, and didn't mean to come off condescendingly if I did)

[Gheizen64]

If you can't consistently cheat Bargain into play, i don't see how it can be better than AdN. AdN is an instant and cost a whole mana less. Costing 6 (and needing life) in a format where aggro win turn 3.5 is pretty harsh. Time spiral is played because it give mana after cast (we don't have jewelry, this is important) and don't need life, so basically you can cast it even at 1 life and you win since you'll have a lot of mana + a new 7.
Bargain in a format where aggro actually exist and you don't have jewelry is imho comparable in power level to Spiral.

Cheating Bargain with SnT is possible, but stronger than Emrakul? Dunno, what kind of deck would play storm + SnT?

Before discussing bargain we should remember we still have crap on the list like Tax or Twist so zzz.

[Justin]

Mind Twist is probably safe. It's actually not that good in mono-black decks. It has the potential for the most abuse in decks that play a lot of colorless mana accelerators (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Grim Monolith) and a black splash. On a good draw, you could rip your opponent's hand away by turn two. I'm not sure if that is cause for keeping the card banned, though. There's a lot of degenerate things you can do in this format if you can generate a lot of mana, other than a big Mind Twist.

[Rune]

About Bargain:

- First of all, Krosan Grip doesn't really do anything against the card, but if Bargain were unbanned, I'm sure a lot of people would regularly get punished by Grip because of their poor rules knowledge :)))

- It doesn't force you to to play a low curve like Ad Naus does -> gives you access to FoW. However, it's hard/impossible to make FoW work in a Legacy Ritual Storm deck alongside LED and Infernal Tutor, so it's very likely that lists with Bargain would never play FoW, since running a high number of LEDs and ITs would be more important. Basically, I don't think a Bargain deck will fully abuse the fact that it can play with all the high cmc stuff it wants (other than multiple Bargains).

- Can abuse Enlightened Tutor. This interaction is potentially dangerous, since it means you will consistenly be able to ramp out Bargain on turn 2 via LED and a cantrip/Top. E. Tutor is laughably bad when compared with Mystical Tutor, though. MT was on-color and it found acceleration, protection, anti-hate, business and win cons. ET is in a 3rd color, and it finds situational accel (LED), protection (the bad kind: Defense Grid, City of Solitude..), business (only Bargain) and good anti-hate cards (Serenity, Seal of Removal, etc.).

- Pithing Needle. Having your main Storm engine cold'ed by this card seems bad. TES/ANT don't care about Needle. The card is occassionally annoying for DDFT and Spiral Tide (Candalabra), but it's going to be much more crippling against a Bargain deck.

- Like others have mentioned, Bargain costs 1 more to play than AdN and most TES/ANT lists already have a average cmc that's less than 1 (if you include lands), so this means that the card is going to be cast later in the game than AdN on average, and that you also lose more life per card drawn. Despite the fact that you have more ways to tutor for Bargain, if you choose to play E. Tutor, I think this means that AdN will outperform Bargain very often, if not always.

- One significant advantage Bargain has over AdN is that you can stop drawing cards when you're on 1 life, play Infernal Tutor, sac LED, find Tendrils and then cast it for some amount that won't win the game. Now you can continue drawing cards until you win. This is the only scenario where Krosan Grip, Pridemage, etc actually matter.


My verdict: won't be anymore powerful than AdN, and so it won't create some unstoppable monster with a stranglehold on the format.

[Sims]

I agree, and it never really was my argument. I was simply saying that Bargain was better than Necro, which was the original post I was responding to.

[menace13]

Necro was unrestricted for Classic on Modo while back, the card pool at the time was deep enough to build Zoo,Goblins,Cbalance decks, Bant, Merfolk, Team America, Combo Elves(w Clamp and Crafts), Landstills, Rock, Stiflenought, Ad Naus/TES, Dredge if i missed a few forgive me.

Now that was a healthy Classic meta, Combo Elves was great, Zoo performed well and other decks got to play. With Necro the format was all of 3 decks; Necro,Merfolk and Burn after re-restriction format reverted back to Legacy like meta as it was before. Note this was around 2 years ago and Necro also had Demonic Consultation unrestricted(which would show up in every deck; merfolk,Team America,Cbalance,Landstill).

Today Classic is dominated by Bazzars,YWill,Tinker,Oath,Shops,Drains,Gush,Time Vault. Bargain is currently Unrestricted in Classic as is Desire. Making those 2 work isn't easy and Necro is simply faster.. like turn 1-2 fast. Not much any other deck is going to do when you turn 1-2 windmill slam a necro draw 12, ignore their play or FoW/Daze it, untap with your crafted hand and either win or set up a win next turn. Mini Tendrils is a fine play with 3x in the deck finding one in your top 20 cards is simple.

[rufus]

Recruiter, Food Chain... and there goes the format

These days, I'd think the primary concern was:
Goblin Recruiter->...-> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker,Lightning Crafter,Skirk Prospector

Yawgmoth's Bargain seems like it is too strong because it's not dependent on having lands in play the way that Time Spiral is. It seems like it could work very well in a Belcher style turn 1 combo deck. From a metagame perspective, WotC also seems to be more for unbanning combo/control cards than straight up combo cards. I'd be looking at other stuff to get unbanned first.

[Uly Van Hammer]

I think top should get the axe just because of time issues. It takes way to long to play a game against counter-top. I have never had a "natural" draw in legacy, but ive come very close (turns) against counter-top. If you look around a tournament when time get's called, it's only the matches with top that are still playing.

[Lemnear]

wow! Bargain and Desire are unrestricted in classic and don't cause havok? The Dark Ritual archetype really has trouble...

[wcm8]

I think top should get the axe just because of time issues. It takes way to long to play a game against counter-top. I have never had a "natural" draw in legacy, but ive come very close (turns) against counter-top. If you look around a tournament when time get's called, it's only the matches with top that are still playing.


I agree completely. It's not that the card is too powerful, it's just incredibly time consuming. And I really don't think you need Ctop to be in the format for combo decks to be kept in check, plenty of decks without either of those cards have positive combo matchups.

[menace13]

wow! Bargain and Desire are unrestricted in classic and don't cause havok? The Dark Ritual archetype really has trouble...
Yeah, Most of the storm decks just seek to abuse LEDs(plural) and YWill. Mystical Tutor is also still unrestricted but is not played as much as LEDs/Infernals.

[Lemnear]

wtf? Mystical and LED's too? sounds like combo heaven.... wish this could be said about paper vintage -_-

A year of MUD dominance is more than enough ... Dark Ritual needs some love from Innistrad

[Koby]

Ya combo would be tits........

if Workshop decks weren't already overpowered. Without Moxen - Combo isn't fast enough to beat 13 spheres.dec

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Right, I'm going to go back to Classical's being irrelevant then. People don't have Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy and apparently they don't even play Bargain.

[(nameless one)]

Ya combo would be tits........

if Workshop decks weren't already overpowered. Without Moxen - Combo isn't fast enough to beat 13 spheres.dec

Hey rukcus,

I'm curious. How does a workshop deck look like in Classic (for some reason, I cannot access Classic Quarter)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, do people imagine Vial and Food Chain are going in the same Goblins list with Recruiter unbanned, and if so, what does the rest of the deck look like? I mean the old FCG ran ESGs and Ancient Tomb, but that was before Vial.

[kiblast]

First of, I know Vintage is much different than Legacy. My point was, Storm with Bargain is much closer than Vintage storm. Grip matters much less when your going off before theres a big chance of it being active. It still is a concern. You also realize Necro is open to Grip too, right? This is the point I was making. While you get a fresh grip off Necro when its comes down turn 1 or turn 2, it gets Gripped and you're in the same place. Necro can't go off the same turn you play it.

You also mention the average life loss, and this is a valid point, however, there are fluctuation with AdN where as this isn't the case with Bargain. I phrased that poorly. I meant that Bargain is always 1-1 where as there is the previously mentioned fluctuation with AdN. As sims said, +1 mana isn't that important, although it would cause Storm decks to be built differently. Are you conceding my other points, because you failed to address them? Instead you decided to fall back upon sarcasm. (I just reread my above post, and didn't mean to come off condescendingly if I did)

I decided to write a sarcastic post, because I was in a hurry and didn't want to stay 15 minutes in front of my pc to write and organize all my thoughts. However:

- Necro is open to Grip as Bargain is. But I think that going Ritual-> Necro, and then Grip, wasted 2 of your resources. While Petal,Ritual, Cabal (with thresh)into Bargain (and this is the fastest way to cheat Bargain into play, or Rit/Rit/Rit if you prefer, or unless you decide to Snt it into play, which is very unlikely), Grip on Bargain actually is like opponent doing double Tourach on you with split second at instant speed! Hooray!
-1 Mana is important. Again, do your math and check how much acceleration is needed to fuel a Bargain and how much for a Necro. Any Ant with good hands(I'm not speaking about God hands) can easily drop Necro turn 1-2. While I can't see any way to drop Bargain before turn 3, unless you are really good at drawing God hands.
- Necro turn 1/2 mans that opponent in most cases will not have 3 mana needed to cast Grip, or to activate Pridemage, while turn 3+ will probably have them. The only problem here is the untap you are giving them, but again, this is not *so* bad because even if they destroy your Necro, they will have 2x1'd you, but if they Grip your Bargain, they will at least 4x1 you.
- The problem of the fluctuation of ANT is comparable to the fact of paying 15 lifes off Bargain and being unable to find something to win. Remember that 15/60 is 1/4 of your deck, and there is some possibility that you don't win. Same of a 15 life ( normally 15-20cards) draw off AdN.

(comparing Bargain to Necro in an ANT-like environment is like comparing Leatherback Baloth to Tarmogoyf in Zoo.)

[conboy31]

I decided to write a sarcastic post, because I was in a hurry and didn't want to stay 15 minutes in front of my pc to write and organize all my thoughts. However:

- Necro is open to Grip as Bargain is. But I think that going Ritual-> Necro, and then Grip, wasted 2 of your resources. While Petal,Ritual, Cabal (with thresh)into Bargain (and this is the fastest way to cheat Bargain into play, or Rit/Rit/Rit if you prefer, or unless you decide to Snt it into play, which is very unlikely), Grip on Bargain actually is like opponent doing double Tourach on you with split second at instant speed! Hooray!
-1 Mana is important. Again, do your math and check how much acceleration is needed to fuel a Bargain and how much for a Necro. Any Ant with good hands(I'm not speaking about God hands) can easily drop Necro turn 1-2. While I can't see any way to drop Bargain before turn 3, unless you are really good at drawing God hands.
- Necro turn 1/2 mans that opponent in most cases will not have 3 mana needed to cast Grip, or to activate Pridemage, while turn 3+ will probably have them. The only problem here is the untap you are giving them, but again, this is not *so* bad because even if they destroy your Necro, they will have 2x1'd you, but if they Grip your Bargain, they will at least 4x1 you.
- The problem of the fluctuation of ANT is comparable to the fact of paying 15 lifes off Bargain and being unable to find something to win. Remember that 15/60 is 1/4 of your deck, and there is some possibility that you don't win. Same of a 15 life ( normally 20cards) draw off AdN.

(comparing Bargain to Necro in an ANT-like environment is like comparing Leatherback Baloth to Tarmogoyf in Zoo.)

I know the first thing I would do after resolving a Bargain against 3 mana (including a green) post sideboard is pass priority. I'd pass priority so fast after resolving a Bargain. Just bam. Passsed.

[Rune]

I know the first thing I would do after resolving a Bargain against 3 mana (including a green) post sideboard is pass priority. I'd pass priority so fast after resolving a Bargain. Just bam. Passsed.

Man, don't waste your time trying to point this out, I already tried on the last page and it doesn't seem to have worked.

[Jander78]

-1 Mana is important. Again, do your math and check how much acceleration is needed to fuel a Bargain and how much for a Necro.

Turn 1: Cabal Therapy
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Academy Rector, flashback Cabal Therapy, Yawgmoth's Bargain

There's other ways to cheat it into play as well, like Show and Tell.

Worldgorger Dragon is fine to take off the list. Without Bazaar, the engine is kind of shot and if you're going to play Buried Alive, you can just Reanimate a Necrotic Ooze to win now and not be vulnerable to Swords, Grip, any bounce, etc.

[Koby]

Hey rukcus,

I'm curious. How does a workshop deck look like in Classic (for some reason, I cannot access Classic Quarter)

Much like they do in Vintage. Only difference is -5 Moxen +5 anything else.

The dominant Shop builds are aggro with Metalworker and lack Smokestack. Steel Hellkite is an incredibly fast beater. The point is that, no matter how broken a combo deck looks on paper, it still have to beat a turn 1 resistor, which many cannot with Moxen.

[kiblast]

Turn 1: Cabal Therapy
Turn 2: Dark Ritual, Academy Rector, flashback Cabal Therapy, Yawgmoth's Bargain


I thought I said barring God hands. I guess an hand composed of: Land, Cabal Therapy, Ritual, Rector is not a God hand in your opinion.At this point,if I'd be forced to use Rector to play Bargain, I'd rather SnT it into play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I thought I said barring God hands. I guess an hand composed of: Land, Cabal Therapy, Ritual, Rector is not a God hand in your opinion.At this point, I'd rather SnT it into play.

Aren't you the guy that thinks Legacy has lots of ways of getting a turn 1 Necro?

[Jander78]

I thought I said barring God hands. I guess an hand composed of: Land, Cabal Therapy, Ritual, Rector is not a God hand in your opinion.
I wouldn't consider that a god hand as I've seen it happen enough times. It can happen with Ancent Tomb or City of Traitors and a Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox as well, or in conjuction with Innocent Blood in lieu of Cabal Therapy. Regardless, I was just illustrating a point, all you need is an Academy Rector and a way to kill it..

[kiblast]

Aren't you the guy that thinks Legacy has lots of ways of getting a turn 1 Necro?

I thought that land, Ritual, is just a bit more common than Land, a combination of 3-4 cards.
And, FYI, I was referring to turn 1-2 (check posts above). Even Land, Petal go. can enable a turn 2 Necro.
But maybe in the magical world where you play Mtg, turn 1 land,triple ritual, Bargain and/or combinations of 3-4 cards involving white creatures (!), and Cabal Therapy(!) in non-Dredge combo decks (all in turn 1-2) are more common.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I thought that land, Ritual, is just a bit more common than Land, a combination of 3-4 cards.
And, FYI, I was referring to turn 1-2 (check posts above). Even Land, Petal go. can enable a turn 2 Necro.
But maybe in the magical world where you play Mtg, turn 1 land,triple ritual, Bargain and/or combinations of 3-4 cards involving white creatures (!), and Cabal Therapy(!) in non-Dredge combo decks (all in turn 1-2) are more common.

Rick already addressed this. There's lots of redundant ways to get a turn 2 Yawgmoth's Bargain with Academy Rector or Show and Tell. This is because it's a lot easier to generate one colored mana and 2 or 3 mana of any color than triple black.

[Jander78]

I thought that land, Ritual, is just a bit more common than Land, a combination of 3-4 cards.
And, FYI, I was referring to turn 1-2 (check posts above). Even Land, Petal go. can enable a turn 2 Necro.
But maybe in the magical world where you play Mtg, turn 1 land,triple ritual, Bargain and/or combinations of 3-4 cards involving white creatures (!), and Cabal Therapy(!) in non-Dredge combo decks (all in turn 1-2) are more common.
There's no debate that it's easier to get Necro into play on turn 1 / 2. Bargain is by far the better card drawing engine as it wins now compared to next turn. A turn 2 Necro is still not as good as a turn 3 Bargain, both of which are equally as easy to manage casting in those respective turns.

[menace13]

Right, I'm going to go back to Classical's being irrelevant then. People don't have Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy and apparently they don't even play Bargain.
It is, it's a small online niche format, but back then during Necro era the pool was close to legacy as were the decks being played. Bargain sees play in storm decks, but it was released like last month(UD as a set).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Somebody brought this up in the Mental Misstep thread - it's probably better discussed here. With that card permeating the meta and driving combo strategies underground, would a Mystical Tutor unban be warranted?

It was also mentioned that ReAnimator with MM + MT would be ridiculous. This is true to some degree, although it would probably still lose to MM-powered Merfolk and Team America.

My thought on the matter is that while MT-powered ANT was kind of ridiculous, combo decks most likely need the added consistency to have a shot in a meta dominated by blue aggro-control and control decks with 16+ counterspells. Not to mention that you can always just MM the Tutor, lol. I'm interested to see if the current meta degenerates into board control vs. aggro, if that is the case, this might be the right move on WOTC's part, I don't know. Anyways, discuss.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Rick already addressed this. There's lots of redundant ways to get a turn 2 Yawgmoth's Bargain with Academy Rector or Show and Tell. This is because it's a lot easier to generate one colored mana and 2 or 3 mana of any color than triple black.

We actually semi-proved this when we did the CYOS tournament last year. I played Necropotence Rock and having to adjust my manabase to facilitate Necro ended up with me going like 1-2 or something like that because I found myself getting manascrewed a lot.
Although I lose to unlucky draws with decks that tend to not get unlucky draws.
I've had to mull to 3 with Elves before because I drew 2 hands with no lands, one hand with all lands, and another with no lands.
I once ran only 2 Mutavaults in Merfolk. Somehow I'd still manage hands like
Wasteland-Mutavault-LoA-Sovereign-Cursecatcher-Daze-Wasteland
on a regular basis.
I think Wizards should make an effort to mitigate my bad luck.
EDIT: By the way, IBA; do you have Shawn's list from the CYOS tourney? I remember having some of the most intense games of magic in my life against that deck and I don't even remember what it was.

[lorddotm]

Why are we even entertaining the idea that Necro can come off of the list? It can't. And Wizard's will never take off Bargain, so don't worry about it.

Dragon can easily come off, same with about 15 other cards.

Earthcraft seems like an easy one, Recruiter, Mystical, Land Tax, Hermit Druid, I wouldn't mind Frantic being taken off, but that could be dangerous, and, Mind's Desire is the same. Windfall might also be able to be taken off, Legacy players unload their hands quickly these days.

[GGoober]

If Windfall becomes overly dominant, just play decks with LED. Vengevines.dec and Storm.dec will make Windfall look awkward :P

I think Windfall is quite fair these days. Its comparable card is Diminishing Returns, although being 1 mana less and no exiling 10 cards could be an easy argument that it's still a tad bit powerful compared to DR. However, something like Doomsday (castable off BBB from drit) or Show and Tell seems to be able to win games much better than cycling through a fresh hand that is dependent on an opponent's hand size.

[Gheizen64]

If Windfall becomes overly dominant, just play decks with LED. Vengevines.dec and Storm.dec will make Windfall look awkward :P

I think Windfall is quite fair these days. Its comparable card is Diminishing Returns, although being 1 mana less and no exiling 10 cards could be an easy argument that it's still a tad bit powerful compared to DR. However, something like Doomsday (castable off BBB from drit) or Show and Tell seems to be able to win games much better than cycling through a fresh hand that is dependent on an opponent's hand size.

Windfall deck can play LED as easily as the deck that supposedly "counter" it and benefit a lot from it. Also, i'm honestly sick of storm combo, we can unban other combo pieces like Dragon and Earthcraft first, so mb to open to more form of hate cards to be relevant. I'd even like to see bargain unbanned before it just because it isn't blue (and because i want to play Runeflare trap).

[GGoober]

Windfall deck can play LED as easily as the deck that supposedly "counter" it and benefit a lot from it. Also, i'm honestly sick of storm combo, we can unban other combo pieces like Dragon and Earthcraft first, so mb to open to more form of hate cards to be relevant. I'd even like to see bargain unbanned before it just because it isn't blue (and because i want to play Runeflare trap).

To be honest, I can't see Earthcraft being dominant in Legacy. The only deck that can play it is Elves, but a 2 mana investment to trigger a potential chain of combo on turn 2 is still fundamentally dependent on a secondary card: Glimpse of Nature. Earthcraft could be the Candelabra for Elves in Spiral Tide, but we already have Heritage Druid, and even then the problem with Elf combo has always been resolving Glimpse and chaining draws into a combo. The only benefit Elf combo has over something like Spanish Inquisition (similar style in chaining draws into a combo) is that Elves actually get some good aggro backup plan.

I hope that Earthcraft and Land Tax will come off. I don't see them warping any metagames at all, definitely not at the level of how Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, MM and a whole ton of recently printed cards has had an effect on Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

To be honest, I can't see Earthcraft being dominant in Legacy. The only deck that can play it is Elves, but a 2 mana investment to trigger a potential chain of combo on turn 2 is still fundamentally dependent on a secondary card: Glimpse of Nature. Earthcraft could be the Candelabra for Elves in Spiral Tide, but we already have Heritage Druid, and even then the problem with Elf combo has always been resolving Glimpse and chaining draws into a combo. The only benefit Elf combo has over something like Spanish Inquisition (similar style in chaining draws into a combo) is that Elves actually get some good aggro backup plan.

I hope that Earthcraft and Land Tax will come off. I don't see them warping any metagames at all, definitely not at the level of how Knight of the Reliquary, Noble Hierarch, MM has had an effect on Legacy.

Y, i'm pretty sure Earthcraft wouldn't be T1, but at least it would be a different kind of a combo deck if it were.

[wcm8]

Earthcraft could potentially find its way into Enchantress, but the card still wouldn't be any more broken than combo options already available in Legacy.

[dahcmai]

I just really don't want to see Squirrel Craft again. It was a pain in the ass the first time around in Vintage. It was a terrible deck, but it really stifled your deck building since you had to keep it in mind that someone could make a million stupid squirrels on turn 2 if you weren't ready for it.



Land Tax, i am convinced they just are laughing it up over that one.

[Gheizen64]

I just really don't want to see Squirrel Craft again. It was a pain in the ass the first time around in Vintage. It was a terrible deck, but it really stifled your deck building since you had to keep it in mind that someone could make a million stupid squirrels on turn 2 if you weren't ready for it.

And why would it be different from elves combo, TES, AnT, Belcher or something? The combo is countered by so many things (revoker, needle, enchantment destruction, discard, counters, flying creatures, caltrops, Deed, etc...) compared to storm it isn't really constricting at all. This isn't counting the fact enlightned tutor is also countered by i-run-4-in-every-deck MM.

[(nameless one)]

The MM being the next best thing in Legacy, would it be safe to allow Land Tax?

I have this Parfait deck sleeved up and always ready to be deployed in case WotC changes their mind.

[Gheizen64]

The MM being the next best thing in Legacy, would it be safe to allow Land Tax?

I have this Parfait deck sleeved up and always ready to be deployed in case WotC changes their mind.

Tax would be fine even in standard probably, the thing must be an inside joke of WotC.

[(nameless one)]

Tax would be fine even in standard probably, the thing must be an inside joke of WotC.

It wouldn't be fine in Standard.

Do you really want to see more Caw-whatever decks in Standard?

[Gheizen64]

It wouldn't be fine in Standard.

Do you really want to see more Caw-whatever decks in Standard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

[Amon Amarth]

Also, do people imagine Vial and Food Chain are going in the same Goblins list with Recruiter unbanned, and if so, what does the rest of the deck look like? I mean the old FCG ran ESGs and Ancient Tomb, but that was before Vial.

I get the feeling Vial wouldn't be necessary. I'm pretty sure Recruiter > 4 Ringleader (or something similar) is more or less unbeatable by control.

[(nameless one)]

I get the feeling Vial wouldn't be necessary. I'm pretty sure Recruiter > 4 Ringleader (or something similar) is more or less unbeatable by control.

Or you can do it like the old Gob-vantage deck lists, which are closer to Sligh Goblin.

[bracer028]

what really needs to come off is mind twist.

[Tacosnape]

Unbanning Recruiter would be scary, yet it'd make Goblins a deck again. Recruiter is just made of frightening. I'm not sure if Food Chain would even be the direction the deck would take anymore, given how Recruiter would allow Goblins to play disruption while solving the "Oh no Ringleader's worse" dilemma. I'd play the thing, in any case, but don't hold your breath here. I'd play the deck again if Recruiter could happen.

My gut feeling is that the next B/R session will have absolutely no changes, due to the fact that they only like to change the list when the format gets stale. With Mental Misstep in existence, the format is anything but stale right now, but I expect there to be some changes two updates from now. Don't be surprised if Goblin Recruiter joins Land Tax in that unbanning spree.

EDIT: Also, I've reversed my stance on Mind Twist coming off. It shouldn't. Far too many semi-colorless ramp decks are capable of producing obscene mana on turn two, and the prospect of 5-6 card Mind Twists hitting before you get enough time to drop a Teeg or do much else is horrifying.

[Gheizen64]

Unbanning Recruiter would be scary, yet it'd make Goblins a deck again. Recruiter is just made of frightening. I'm not sure if Food Chain would even be the direction the deck would take anymore, given how Recruiter would allow Goblins to play disruption while solving the "Oh no Ringleader's worse" dilemma. I'd play the thing, in any case, but don't hold your breath here. I'd play the deck again if Recruiter could happen.

My gut feeling is that the next B/R session will have absolutely no changes, due to the fact that they only like to change the list when the format gets stale. With Mental Misstep in existence, the format is anything but stale right now, but I expect there to be some changes two updates from now. Don't be surprised if Goblin Recruiter joins Land Tax in that unbanning spree.

EDIT: Also, I've reversed my stance on Mind Twist coming off. It shouldn't. Far too many semi-colorless ramp decks are capable of producing obscene mana on turn two, and the prospect of 5-6 card Mind Twists hitting before you get enough time to drop a Teeg or do much else is horrifying.

Semi-Colorless decks that are able to produce obscene amount of mana by turn 2 are MUD, MUD and MUD, and MUD wouldn't play twist.

[Amon Amarth]

I'm not sure why FCG would want to play disruption if you can just kill people. I assume you are talking for the combo match, which is what your SB is for. Speaking of which, Thorn of Amethyst is le funny here.

Those same decks that can ramp out super fast Mind Twists are also the ones that can dump things like Sundering Titan into play, probably more often since Titan is colorless. The artifact ramp decks aren't short of ways to blow you out of the game. Their Achilles Heel is consistency. Black doesn't give you anything else, short of Mind Twist, so it's a bad splash too.

[Justin]

My gut feeling is that the next B/R session will have absolutely no changes, due to the fact that they only like to change the list when the format gets stale. With Mental Misstep in existence, the format is anything but stale right now, but I expect there to be some changes two updates from now. Don't be surprised if Goblin Recruiter joins Land Tax in that unbanning spree.

I tend to agree. Most likely, there will be no changes. I cannot imagine anything getting banned right now. Pehaps if a card seems really nuts at GP Providence, something could happen, but I doubt it. Because Mental Misstep is already one of the best cards in the format, the best unbanning candidates are one-drops. They might unban a couple one-drops, but I don't see why they would do it so soon. It would make more sense to wait a few months when they are able to better gage the full impact of Mental Misstep.

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Goblins had enough trouble with Tarmogoyf and Jitte, then Wild Nacatl and friends joined the party and more recently, Stoneforge Mystic. Now Mental Misstep counters the 2 key cards of the deck (Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey). Goblins is totally unplayable right now. Unban Goblin Recruiter already!

EDIT: And while you're at it, print a Goblin Qasali Pridemage because Tin Street Hooligan sucks.

[Sims]

Goblins had enough trouble with Tarmogoyf and Jitte, then Wild Nacatl and friends joined the party and more recently, Stoneforge Mystic. Now Mental Misstep counters the 2 key cards of the deck (Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey). Goblins is totally unplayable right now. Unban Goblin Recruiter already!

EDIT: And while you're at it, print a Goblin Qasali Pridemage because Tin Street Hooligan sucks.

They see me trollin'.... They hatin'....

[MDB]

So, Mental Misstep...about time to get the banhammer out and ban...Brainstorm!

Okay, just hear me out, I know y'all love our own Ancestral Recall. But the format just went up from 1 to 2 free counters on the draw, and from 2 to 3 (incl. Daze) on the play. So first turn window for Vial/Welder/Thoughtseize etc. just shunk from 54% to 7% on the play (not counting mulligans, blue card and whatnot). While, on the play, the blue mage was already holding, statistically speaking, 1,05 FoW/Daze, going up to 1,6 when MM is added to the mix. Speaking of adding to the mix, there's also that Island, free to use for Spell Pierce, Stifle, and you guessed it Brainstorm. While the Brainstorm is only going to be there half of the time, other half Preordain/Ponder, it does increase the average free counter count to a whopping 2,2.

I'm somewhat fine with blue "reliably" having 1 free counter on the draw and 2 on the play, well, not really, but I'm not here to bitch about that. I do have a problem with instant speed though. As dominating as blue is in the forthcoming MM-era, I really think blue reliability should come at sorcery speed. Forcing the blue mages to commit to card quality, and strategic decisions on their own turn. (leave Island open for Stifle?, fetch basic or dual? what to keep in hand and what on top? etc...)

In adition a rehash of the old arguments: protects you from Seize/Duress/IoK, whoa fetches! and yadiyadiyaa.../end rant

In conclusion, winning the die roll doesn't mean shit anymore unless you're playing blue or not playing against blue, and Brainstorm only makes this worse, time for it to go.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think it's early to talk about banning anything.

[(nameless one)]

Semi-Colorless decks that are able to produce obscene amount of mana by turn 2 are MUD, MUD and MUD, and MUD wouldn't play twist.

MUD decks can get an active Mox Diamond + Sol Land (Grim Monolith) by turn one with ease. I wouldn't mind testing that in MUD if they ever allowed Mind Twist.