All B/R update speculation.

[DragoFireheart]

I think it's early to talk about banning anything.


Basically this. Nothing so far is degenerate like SotF was back in December. Mental Misstep is good and made some decks better (Control, Merfolk) and weakened some others (Goblins), but this is more of a format shift and not a repeat of the rise of degenerate decks.

[Xantid Swarm]

100% agree that it's too early to conclude on anything right now, but MDB resume very well what I think about Brainstorm. I think it's the obvious candidate for the next ban and if blue keep is actual level of domination in the next 3-6 months, I think that Brainstorm would have to go.

What is funny, in the same time is that Merfolk will be untouch by this ban, as the only blue deck not playing Brainstorm, except by the fact that less blue decks in the format mean fewer good matchups for them.

[Gheizen64]

MUD decks can get an active Mox Diamond + Sol Land (Grim Monolith) by turn one with ease. I wouldn't mind testing that in MUD if they ever allowed Mind Twist.

You used 4 a cards combo to make your opponent discard 2 at random (diamond+ discard land + sol + twist). How is that strong?

[perm]

Mind twist can only be degenerate when used with dark ritual on say, turn three. Don't be fooled, two cards for three random cards is better than one card for two cards. But way better things can be done with tons of colorless mana.

[bruizar]

You used 4 a cards combo to make your opponent discard 2 at random (diamond+ discard land + sol + twist). How is that strong?

Mox Diamond and a hand with 2 Lands is a combo nowadays? Wow... I must be lucky ripping that land + brainstorm combo so often!

EDIT:

I would rather cast Mind Twist to strip an entire hand than Thoughtcast to draw 2 cards

[Gheizen64]

Sol+Moxen + twist is a combo, yes. That's the reason stax decks in legacy sucks, because 3 mana on T1 is unreliable and make a lot your hands shit + give you shitty topdecks.

Probability of drawing at least one diamond in starting seven running 3:

P(Mox)=(57/60*56/59*55/58*...*51/54)^-1=31%

Add to that drawing at least one Sol land (8) in your remaining 6:

P(Mox+Sol)=P(Mox)*[(51/59*.....*46/54)^-1]=21%

Now add at least any one land to your remaining 5:

P(Mox+Sol+3rdland)=P(Mox+Sol)*[(35/58*34/57*33/56*32/55*31/54)^-1]=19%

Add a twist to your final 4 (running 4):

P(combo)=P(MSL)*[(53/57*52/56*51/55*50/54)^-1]~5%

Now in those 5% of hands, you can keep only those hands where you have another threat, unless you think you'll win by just casting hymn to tourach on T1 (This isn't as relevant in ritual decks that cast hymn because you "only" use 3 cards for the combo whereas you use 4 here, that's huge since the chances of seeing a threat in the last 4 cards are 33% greater than seeing a threat in the last 3 cards, so 33% more good hands, also running cards like moxen crap your topdecks ), so i'd say the real figures are about 3-4% of all total hands. Land + ritual + hymn is almost thrice as common as that (~10%) and isn't breaking the format anywhere.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 something, turn 3 Mind Twist for 3-4 is still pretty strong. Of course it doesn't solve blank-stompy's problems with running out of gas.

I don't think Mind Twist would be broken, but it's playable.

[Gheizen64]

Turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 something, turn 3 Mind Twist for 3-4 is still pretty strong. Of course it doesn't solve blank-stompy's problems with running out of gas.

I don't think Mind Twist would be broken, but it's playable.

I think no one is saying Twist is unplayable, just that it doesn't deserve to be banned and wouldn't warp the meta or anything.

[Scordata]

I actually think they should ban hymn to tourach. There's no strategy with that card.

[bracer028]

I actually think they should ban hymn to tourach. There's no strategy with that card.

no strategy or u cant fight it?

[perm]

Hymn to tourach is certainly the best discard in the game, but it's not broken in a format where turn one wins are possible. In fact, hymn to tourach is important for keeping black as disruptive as it is, and keeping combo in check.

[paeng4983]

having necro is just broken. cannot say the same with mindtwist though. but necro...its gonna get nasty.

yup. bringing necro into the current legacy will be a hell. not to mention, its going to be four copies in a DECK. *sigh*

[rnightingale]

I actually think they should ban hymn to tourach. There's no strategy with that card.

Impossible. Hymn is a balanced card that is exclusive for Black users. If Blue has FOW, then Black has Hymn.

Unbanning Mystical Tutor and Goblin Recruiter would be fine :)

[dontbiteitholmes]

Impossible. Hymn is a balanced card that is exclusive for Black users. If Blue has FOW, then Black has Hymn.

Unbanning Mystical Tutor and Goblin Recruiter would be fine :)

This is me disagreeing. Goblin Recruiter is absolutely insane. It is stone cold nuts in every way and it is precisely the kind of card we should not want in Legacy. First off, let me say, Recruiter takes absolutely forever to resolve. I know there are rules in place to prevent too much time being wasted but Recruiter basically says "Stack your deck" it takes a minute to resolve even if you know exactly what you are doing. Second, oh my god, you get to stack your entire deck!!! It's like 40 Worldly Tutors and a 1/1 for two mana, so nuts. Third, the format is in disarray right now, there is absolutely no reason to unban anything until at least a month after the GP likely more like 3 months. The format needs to settle. Everyone wants to put the nail in the coffin on Goblins and combo, but really it's too early to do anything of the sort. The metagame is heavy in control right now and the more people metagame their decks to beat control the more wide open they leave themselves to Goblins. Let's not forget what happened the last time the meta was this heavy in control (Back when 1.5 became Legacy and separated from Vintage and Survival and Landstill were the decks to beat) goblins was the deck that broke control wide open and ate it alive. Sure this time control has Misstep, but at the same time plenty of good goblins have been printed over the years and it's a deck that still has a lot of powerful plays without Recruiter. I think that regardless of our new counterspell anyone who sleeps on Goblins and thinks they are safe with a control deck because of 4 Missteps is in for a rude awakening.

Mystical Tutor will stay banned. They just banned it a year ago so they probably won't even consider an unbanning in the next 2 years.

Mind Twist at this point is nearly safe to unban. My main argument against it is that Mind Twist is a stone cold control breaker that is endlessly splashable and for a while control was just dead regardless and didn't need any more hurdles. I would just hate to see things get to a point where control mirrors come down to Mind Twist resolution, which was the entire reason for it's initial ban.

[bracer028]

This is me disagreeing. Goblin Recruiter is absolutely insane. It is stone cold nuts in every way and it is precisely the kind of card we should not want in Legacy. First off, let me say, Recruiter takes absolutely forever to resolve. I know there are rules in place to prevent too much time being wasted but Recruiter basically says "Stack your deck" it takes a minute to resolve even if you know exactly what you are doing. Second, oh my god, you get to stack your entire deck!!! It's like 40 Worldly Tutors and a 1/1 for two mana, so nuts. Third, the format is in disarray right now, there is absolutely no reason to unban anything until at least a month after the GP likely more like 3 months. The format needs to settle. Everyone wants to put the nail in the coffin on Goblins and combo, but really it's too early to do anything of the sort. The metagame is heavy in control right now and the more people metagame their decks to beat control the more wide open they leave themselves to Goblins. Let's not forget what happened the last time the meta was this heavy in control (Back when 1.5 became Legacy and separated from Vintage and Survival and Landstill were the decks to beat) goblins was the deck that broke control wide open and ate it alive. Sure this time control has Misstep, but at the same time plenty of good goblins have been printed over the years and it's a deck that still has a lot of powerful plays without Recruiter. I think that regardless of our new counterspell anyone who sleeps on Goblins and thinks they are safe with a control deck because of 4 Missteps is in for a rude awakening.

Mystical Tutor will stay banned. They just banned it a year ago so they probably won't even consider an unbanning in the next 2 years.

Mind Twist at this point is nearly safe to unban. My main argument against it is that Mind Twist is a stone cold control breaker that is endlessly splashable and for a while control was just dead regardless and didn't need any more hurdles. I would just hate to see things get to a point where control mirrors come down to Mind Twist resolution, which was the entire reason for it's initial ban.

control decks have so many counters, mind twist wouldn't even matter. and in any other deck, people don't usually pack a full 7 cards in their hands

[Koby]

control decks have so many counters, mind twist wouldn't even matter. and in any other deck, people don't usually pack a full 7 cards in their hands

That doesn't make Mind Twist any less devastating if they still rape your entire hand.

[Gheizen64]

That doesn't make Mind Twist any less devastating if they still rape your entire hand.

The old adage of "Twist break the control mirror" is stupid in a world where JTMS exist. Seriously.

[Whippoorwill]

From today's article about Modern:

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144


Data from tournaments held in previous Extended formats showed that Sensei's Divining Top takes too long to play with. When rounds go to time, everyone in the entire tournament has less fun. If Modern ever caught on seriously, we would likely have to ban Top, so we decided to reflect that in this experiment.

Not sure what to say that hasn't already been said regarding this.

Edit: Funny how they mention Legacy in the reasoning for the other banned cards, but not this one.

[DragoFireheart]

From today's article about Modern:

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144



Not sure what to say that hasn't already been said regarding this.

Edit: Funny how they mention Legacy in the reasoning for the other banned cards, but not this one.


They won't ban top because it enables Counterbalance, which keeps Storm in check.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also Top is the only thing that makes Brainstorm look sort of fair. If one gets the axe the other pretty much has to follow. Brainstorm's kind of skirting the edge as it is.

[(nameless one)]

I don't know about you guys but the last two GPs involved:

GP Madrid - Mystical Tutor
GP Columbus - Survival of the Fittest

So what's next?

[Gheizen64]

With this much MM around, should we consider some strong 1-mana cards for unbanning?




The triumvirate of tutors: Mystical, Vampiric, Imperial Seal (not considered for power level reasons, Consultation)


http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG6TH/mystical_tutor.jpg http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MTG6TH/vampiric_tutor.jpg http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGP3K/imperial_seal.jpg

Mystical boost combo and only that (take everything vamp does except LED, no life, pitch to force, does nothing in aggro/control decks), while vampiric at least is usable in rock-like decks for silver bullets, but the instant speed make it too hard to play around. Seal would imho be strong but fine, but it cost way too much (300 dollars and it's usable only as a singleton in Vintage), it would need a massive reprint in some promo deck. This is extremely unlikely since it would probably piss out a lot distributors, so it's out of consideration too imho.
Consultation is not even considered since it has no disadvantage in a format without singletons, instant speed Demonic tutor for B, okay.



Mana acceleration: Mana Vault (not considered for power level reason, Sol Ring, Fastbond)


http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG4TH/mana_vault.jpg

The big brother of Grim Monolith. At 1, this would boost artifact decks a lot and make a lot of lists start with:

4 Vault
4 Monolith
4 Keys

However, even like this, i don't think artifact deck would be good in Legacy. They need to be really, really broken (moxen + Workshop level of broken) to be playable (as a common deck, not as a rogue) when you have super strong cheap splashable hate for it.
The real problem is: would it be too good in combo? Probably, probably no. While it's a different format, we can look at Vintage to see what's the hottest thing in storm combo. And there Mana Vault is a highly debated slot. It's usually used when you use multiple FoF/Gift and the likes (so a lot of big colorless sinks), or when you run the tinker-robot plan as an alternate win to increase the artifact count. Cabal ritual is often used in its place. In legacy its biggest assets would be making T1 swamp, T2 AnT possible. I would like it unbanned to see finally more artifacts decks in the format, but it would be probably a tad too good.



WotC inside Joke: Land Tax


http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG4TH/land_tax.jpg

Too many words have been spent onto this card. This card is probably worse than Loam (Loam is: a lot less conditional, can take any kind of land, it's basically uncounterable, fill your graveyard for more targets, cost 1 more), and Loam while a good card, isn't nowhere near Bannable status.



The "fuck u control": Black Vise, Skullclamp


http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG4TH/black_vise.jpg http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAGDST/skullclamp.jpg

I'd really, really like to see Vise unbanned to fuck up all this blue and give a big boost to extremely aggressive aggro strategy coupled with mana denial strategy and burn (RDW with 4 vise, 4 waste 4 port, fuck u standstill <3). Sadly, Tomb for double vise T1 on the play is an opening that many players would loathe, and WotC would never unban it because "it's unfun" (because Tomb-> CotV for 1 is fun, really...) and because it make going first a much greater advantage (on the other hand, vise often sucks on the draw). I honestly believe that Vise wouldn't be even that good in this format where you can dump cards so fast if you need to, i'd consider it about as good as vial as an anti-control foil (vial is better after mid game, but it require you to run 20+ creatures and it's slower). Control wouldn't even need to change too many cards to adapt to it (Seal of Primordium/Cleansing are ok, kill equipments, Standstill if dropped first, Factories, dodge MM etc...) Prison is also non-existant in this format, so it's not like we could Vise into sphere ever efficiently with no Workshops/Moxen. That said, my opinion on the card isn't supported by anyone in the northern emisphere, so an unban is just extremely unlikely.
Clamp is just infinite card advantage for creature decks, and would probably kill any form of control in legacy should it ever be unbanned. The power level isn't comparable to Vise imho, this is like ancestral for creature decks. Also, SFM is good enough already.

[Shawon]

With this much MM around, should we consider some strong 1-mana cards for unbanning?


No. How does Mental Mistep makes Mystical Tutor safe to unban again? You don't really explain how Mental Mistep makes these 1cc cards or the decks that often play them subpar or fair. Did you put any thought beyond "Mistep makes all 1cc cards jank now lol?"

Mystical Tutor is still unsafe to ban. It's still dangerous in select combo decks, especially blue combo decks like Hive Mind and Spiral Tide, which are also capable of running Mental Mistep.

Ironically, I think Land Tax might be UNsafe to ban right now, even more so because of Mental Mistep. The metagame has slowed down and control decks are on the rise. Unbanning Land Tax is a matter of bad timing. Too many control decks will start using it and control mirror matches would be a nightmare to play out (or watch).

I do think Mana Vault should be unbanned, but not strictly because of Mental Mistep. Outside of artifact decks, the fast colorless mana it isn't that useful to other combo decks. Belcher? It makes Chrome Mox worse and it doesn't directly cast Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish. Just Charbelcher. While untapping with a ready-to-go Mana Vault make allow some powerful plays like a turn 2 Fact or Fiction in blue control, it's not very degenerate and the fact that the risk of walking right into a counter negates the explosiveness of Vault. In artifact decks, Mana Vault is pretty nasty but it doesn't address the issue that artifact decks can still get their shit wrecked by Energy Flux.

And Skullclamp is still too powerful.

[Gheizen64]

No. How does Mental Mistep makes Mystical Tutor safe to unban again? You don't really explain how Mental Mistep makes these 1cc cards or the decks that often play them subpar or fair. Did you put any thought beyond "Mistep makes all 1cc cards jank now lol?"

Mystical Tutor is still unsafe to ban. It's still dangerous in select combo decks, especially blue combo decks like Hive Mind and Spiral Tide, which are also capable of running Mental Mistep.

Ironically, I think Land Tax might be UNsafe to ban right now, even more so because of Mental Mistep. The metagame has slowed down and control decks are on the rise. Unbanning Land Tax is a matter of bad timing. Too many control decks will start using it and control mirror matches would be a nightmare to play out (or watch).

I do think Mana Vault should be unbanned, but not strictly because of Mental Mistep. Outside of artifact decks, the fast colorless mana it isn't that useful to other combo decks. Belcher? It makes Chrome Mox worse and it doesn't directly cast Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish. Just Charbelcher. While untapping with a ready-to-go Mana Vault make allow some powerful plays like a turn 2 Fact or Fiction in blue control, it's not very degenerate and the fact that the risk of walking right into a counter negates the explosiveness of Vault. In artifact decks, Mana Vault is pretty nasty but it doesn't address the issue that artifact decks can still get their shit wrecked by Energy Flux.

And Skullclamp is still too powerful.

Did you read what i wrote or just answered out of nerdrage? I didn't advocate any of the cards to come off the list except Vise and Tax (and i found both unlikely). I just said that with MM here (most played card at the GP, even more than force and brainstorm), the chance of countering strong 1-mana cards on the play is effectively doubled (4 FoW -> 4 FoW 4 MM) making those cards a lot less "unanswerable". That much is fact, and i see this as the perfect occasion for WotC to unban something since they printed such a strong answer card.

[Shawon]

Did you read what i wrote or just answered out of nerdrage? I didn't advocate any of the cards to come off the list except Vise and Tax (and i found both unlikely). I just said that with MM here (most played card at the GP, even more than force and brainstorm), the chance of countering strong 1-mana cards on the play is effectively doubled (4 FoW -> 4 FoW 4 MM) making those cards a lot less "unanswerable". That much is fact, and i see this as the perfect occasion for WotC to unban something since they printed such a strong answer card.

I don't care about your opinions on what should be banned or unbanned. My nerdrage is directed at the fact that you suggested the possibility of unbanning cards because of Mental Mistep's prevalence in the format. Your suggestion is shortsighted. Mental Mistep may be a convenient and efficient answer to Mystical Tutor or Black Vise, but it doesn't make them any less dangerous when they resolve. Mental Mistep is a good card and it gives blue control an advantage against combo and fast aggro decks, but it doesn't kill their existence as shown in the GP day 1 lists. All it does is make the matchups more favorable (but not unstoppable) for blue decks, but unbanning powerful 1 cc cards doesn't balance anything. It just unbalances the scale again. Also, did you stop to consider non-blue decks fighting against Mystical Tutor or Black Vise?

EDIT: If you aren't advocating any cards other than Land Tax or Black Vise off the ban list, then why are you suggesting that the other cards could be unbanned now?

[Gheizen64]

I don't care about your opinions on what should be banned or unbanned. My nerdrage is directed at the fact that you suggested the possibility of unbanning cards because of Mental Mistep's prevalence in the format. Your suggestion is shortsighted. Mental Mistep may be a convenient and efficient answer to Mystical Tutor or Black Vise, but it doesn't make them any less dangerous when they resolve. Mental Mistep is a good card and it gives blue control an advantage against combo and fast aggro decks, but it doesn't kill their existence as shown in the GP day 1 lists. All it does is make the matchups more favorable (but not unstoppable) for blue decks, but unbanning powerful 1 cc cards doesn't balance anything. It just unbalances the scale again. Also, did you stop to consider non-blue decks fighting against Mystical Tutor or Black Vise?

EDIT: If you aren't advocating any cards other than Land Tax or Black Vise off the ban list, then why are you suggesting that the other cards could be unbanned now?

Because i present point of discussion, pro and cons, to, you know, discuss things and say why or why not a card could be unbanned.
I could just say "fuck you unban this it sucks anyway", but that wouldn't this as constructive.

[GradStudentGuy]

Mana Vault I think would make MUD decks very consistent to the point that they can lock the game out turn one ~60% of the time if not disrupted. Turn one Lodestone Golem or other sphere effects would may warp the format.

[Shawon]

Mana Vault I think would make MUD decks very consistent to the point that they can lock the game out turn one ~60% of the time if not disrupted. Turn one Lodestone Golem or other sphere effects would may warp the format.

Lock out the game? How so? MUD already has the capabilities to make great turn 1 plays, but they hardly decide whether the game is over or not, especially if one of those sick turn 1 plays involves a summoning-sick Metalworker. Mana Vault drastically improves MUD's mana consistencies but it doesn't hurt its two biggest weakness: 1) finding a bomb and 2) playing through blue or removal, or both (Energy Flux).

[dahcmai]

Because Trinisphere requires an Ancient Tomb land and Mox to come out turn 1 as it stands. Giving it another way to do it with only one card and a regular land ups it's consistency quite a bit.

[(nameless one)]

Because Trinisphere requires an Ancient Tomb land and Mox to come out turn 1 as it stands. Giving it another way to do it with only one card and a regular land ups it's consistency quite a bit.

They can also do Sol Land + Grim Monolith. MUD Decks can easily power a Trinisphere out no problem but they don't run it. I still think Mana Vault is too much for MUD, though I hope the make a version that adds two mana to your mana pool and requires 3 to untap. Kinda like a Sol Ring + Mana Vault hybrid.

[Gheizen64]

Because Trinisphere requires an Ancient Tomb land and Mox to come out turn 1 as it stands. Giving it another way to do it with only one card and a regular land ups it's consistency quite a bit.

This is great in theory, but has a couple of big issues.

First, the power level of trinishpere in legacy. Many people forget that trinisphere isn't good in vintage because the curve is low, but because 50% of your mana sources in Vintage are spells. Moxen, crypt, lotus, sol. Imagine a sphere of resistance for lands AND spells. That's what trinisphere is in vintage. In legacy, Trinisphere is still strong due to low curves, but nowhere as good in vintage since we run almost twice as many lands on average. I believe even with more consistent means to play it, it would just go unplayed since the effect isn't as relevant in this format. CotV on 1 is much more relevant in legacy compared to trinishpere, and still chalice aggro isn't a good deck.

Second, the issue of mana artifact vs lands. As many said before me, mana artifact has a fundamental problem. It's mana, but count as a spell. This is especially true of cards like Vault or Monolith with non-untap clause and 1+ mana costs. It's not true of cards like Sol, Crypt or the Moxen, since they require super little-investments, but that's why those cards are broken in the first place. This mean that adding those cards inherently make the deck less consistent in terms of spells to mana ratio. This is not true only if you do a 1for1 swap Monolith->Vault, but you'd think the deck is that much improved by that? I don't think so. The deck still remain horribly inconsistant. I've tried this hypotetical MeandeckMUD list, as i feel it's probably the best artifact deck and the deck that would be most improved by Vault:

Mana: 34 cards, 16 lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
3 Grim Monolith
4 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker

Spells:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Trying some random hands:

-wurmcoil, Lodestone, wasteland, wasteland, lodestone, metalworker, voltaic key -> need the third mana source, mull
- 2vault, key, welder, Wurmcoil, Tomb, Top -> sick hand, you lay all beside welder T1 and you have a Top
- monolith, 2city, crucible,key, wurmcoil,battlesphere -> keep. City + Monolith+Key give u enough to cast battlesphere or wurm on T2 without blowing your own city, meaning a waste isn't autoloss.
- opal, crucible, Great furnace, greaves, Hellkite, Welder, wasteland -> mull. Welder T1 and then nothing
- lodestone, hellkite, welder, city, top, wurmcoil,battlesphere -> mull, nothing castable
- furnace,2city, 2 tomb, worker, wurmcoil-> mull, 5 lands hands with little gas
- 2city, 2furnace,opal,key,tomb->mull, all mana hand
- 2vault, opal, crucible, wurmcoil, kuldotha, battlesphere -> 3 mana but 0 lands, mull
- 2vault,2waste,furnace,key,kuldotha-> risky, you have 6 mana sources and a threat, mull
- kuldotha, 2 metalworker, wasteland, mox diamond,key, engine -> 2 mana but only 1 land, mull
- tomb, waste, top, worker, 2lodestone, forgemaster -> probably keep. You lose if they waste u on T1 however.

Those were my first 11 random hands via cockatrice. If there's a way to load a deck on some site and get random hands, you can see it for yourself. The deck is horribly inconsistent. You can probably improve it by tweaking numbers and all, this was the list on the OP of the MeandeckMUD topic -3 Diamond -1 Monolith +4 Vault (seemed the best exchange to me, 16 lands are no good with diamonds). Problem is you only have 7 red sources like this instead of 10, so maybe it shouldn't run welder. Suggestions are welcome.

[dahcmai]

You guys obviously didn't ever play Vintage with 4 Trinispheres around did you? Trinisphere is restricted there for a reason. It was ridiculously good. Workshop into Trinisphere was one of the most broken plays ever in Vintage for a bit. It's like a double time walk in most cases. It dominated the hell out of vintage for a bit pushing out just about everything excepting decks like Slaver that had a shot at stopping that first turn play. Either way, it was the main reason for it's restriction. I should know, I played the hell out of that deck. Man, I loved it.

We don't have shops in Legacy, but making it easier to get that little combo off is just nuts. Oddly, it's not as strong in Legacy due to the higher land counts and lack of Moxen, but it's still a double time walk. Definitely not good for the format letting any deck be able to consistently cast it first turn.


When is the next announcement anyway?

[Gheizen64]

I played my fair share of Vintage thank you. Also you never played trinisphere in legacy? T1 trinishpere in Legacy is bad.

Next announcment is June 20 iirc.

[dahcmai]

It wasn't that bad in Legacy. I played Dragon Stompy for a bit and always liked seeing a first turn sphere. It's not as good due to the amount of mana played in Legacy, but it's still crippling to several decks.

If you played Vintage, why did you say it sucked there? It was horrible. I loved being on the end of playing it first and watching people just groan.



Oh and thanks, I always forget that date.

[Tacosnape]

Calling it now: No changes.

Then we see like 3-6 cards come off (And possibly something get added) in 3 months when the metagame's still too blue.

[Gheizen64]

It wasn't that bad in Legacy. I played Dragon Stompy for a bit and always liked seeing a first turn sphere. It's not as good due to the amount of mana played in Legacy, but it's still crippling to several decks.

If you played Vintage, why did you say it sucked there? It was horrible. I loved being on the end of playing it first and watching people just groan.



Oh and thanks, I always forget that date.

I didn't say it sucked it Vintage. I just said i played Vintage and i know it was retarded, but i also said trini isn't half as good as it is in Vintage in Legacy, for obvious reasons. Also Mana Vault isn't coming off the list anytime soon.

Calling no changes too, WotC is SO slow on this thing. We waited what, 2 years to see Monolith and Worker unbanned ?

[DragoFireheart]

Calling it now: No changes.

Then we see like 3-6 cards come off (And possibly something get added) in 3 months when the metagame's still too blue.

Land Tax may finally come off the list. :)


Anyways, here are cards I predict WotC may attempt to take off the ban list:


Earthcraft
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Memory Jar
Mind Twist


I think all of those cards have the greatest chance of being unbanned. Everything else seems too powerful.

[Sims]

Memory Jar


I think all of those cards have the greatest chance of being unbanned. Everything else seems too powerful.

I don't mean to be that guy... but...

lolwut?

[Gheizen64]

Land Tax may finally come off the list. :)


Anyways, here are cards I predict WotC may attempt to take off the ban list:


Earthcraft
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Memory Jar
Mind Twist


I think all of those cards have the greatest chance of being unbanned. Everything else seems too powerful.


Vise is more safe than any card on that list except MAYBE mind twist. And it's no surprise, given it's a reactionary card.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't mean to be that guy... but...

lolwut?


What's wrong? Speak up!

[Sims]

Aside from making fringe decks like Caress/Megrim playable (and hilarious)... I think we already had a discussion in this thread on how ridiculously busted Jar would be in this format. I can think of no reason that I'd want to give both Combo and MUD decks a Draw 7 that can potentially screw me out of answers depending on what my jar'd 7 are.

[Rune]

What's wrong? Speak up!

I think the general fear is that giving brown decks a draw 7 is a really bad idea, because they have so much fast mana available now. Goblin Welder also makes Jar do silly things in those kinds of decks. I don't think Jar would improve Dark Ritual combo noticably, though, since Diminishing Returns sees 0 maindeck play, and the drawback of that card is pretty insignificant. I'd be curious to know if Megrim + Jar would be unfair. I think not, since you'd have to resolve either 2x Jar + 1x Megrim or 2x Megrim + 1x Jar to win. Plus, you're playing a combo deck that loses to Disenchant.

[Sims]

I don't think Megrim Jar would be too broken, but do keep in mind you get to run 8 Megrims, so 1 jar is probably all you need ontop of having other discard to ping in before jar resolves.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think Megrim Jar would be too broken, but do keep in mind you get to run 8 Megrims, so 1 jar is probably all you need ontop of having other discard to ping in before jar resolves.

I'd love to see a Megrim competitve deck! R/B with various discards and such.

[Rune]

I don't think Megrim Jar would be too broken, but do keep in mind you get to run 8 Megrims, so 1 jar is probably all you need ontop of having other discard to ping in before jar resolves.

Ah yes, forgot about the new and improved Megrim. That could very well make it a good deck. However, it's much more susceptible to hate than many of combo decks that are legal now, because it loses to Pithing Needle, Stifle, Null Rod, bassically all the hate bears and it will also lose to disenchant effects on occasion when you don't have enough Megrims/dsicard to overcome it.

I think the game has changed a lot since it was auto-banned that it could be interesting to have it come off. People will be able to fight it much better now, and even though it might make MUD insane, those decks still aren't fast enough to avoid scrooping to a Null Rod. Or am I just being crazy?

[DragoFireheart]

Ah yes, forgot about the new and improved Megrim. That could very well make it a good deck. However, it's much more susceptible to hate than many of combo decks that are legal now, because it loses to Pithing Needle, Stifle, Null Rod, bassically all the hate bears and it will also lose to disenchant effects on occasion when you don't have enough Megrims/dsicard to overcome it.

I think the game has changed a lot since it was auto-banned that it could be interesting to have it come off. People will be able to fight it much better now, and even though it might make MUD insane, those decks still scroop to Null Rod. Or am I just being crazy? ;0


Null Rod
Energy Flux
Hurkyl's Recall


Bye bye MUD, Affinity and other annoying artifact heavy decks.

[spirit of the wretch]

Null Rod
Energy Flux
Hurkyl's Recall


Bye bye MUD, Affinity and other annoying artifact heavy decks.

This is an argument that annoys me whenever someone dregs it up again.

You know how many cards "answer" Minds Desire? A bunch! Yawgmoth's Will? A frigging ton! Does that mean they should unban any of those cards? Proooobably not.

Anyway to not just nerd rage through the world: I'd like to see Land Tax (yeah, like that's going to happen...), Mind Twist and Worldgorger Dragon unbanned.
All of these cards seem pretty fair.

Though "No change" is the save bet, obviously.

[DragoFireheart]

This is an argument that annoys me whenever someone dregs it up again.

You know how many cards "answer" Minds Desire? A bunch! Yawgmoth's Will? A frigging ton! Does that mean they should unban any of those cards? Proooobably not.

Anyway to not just nerd rage through the world:


That's quite the nerdrage for an argument that wasn't pertaining to Memory Jar in any capacity. Read my post a little more carefully before blowing up next time.

[dahcmai]

I think I'll actually say Black Vise this time. There's probably no way that will happen, but it seems the safest one past Land Tax and you know that will stay on there until the day Black Lotus comes off. Vise would have the effect of kicking blue based control in the teeth.

[Admiral_Arzar]

That's quite the nerdrage for an argument that wasn't pertaining to Memory Jar in any capacity. Read my post a little more carefully before blowing up next time.

Previously, I would have argued quite vehementlly against Jar's unban (and I'm a storm combo player...). However, your arguments have made me think about it a little more, and I honestly don't think it would be that bad. The main thing that makes Jar scary is that it would spawn an entirely new combo deck (or decks, I think Megrim/Jar and Jar Tendrils), one unlike any seen before in Legacy, and it's very difficult to gauge the power of said deck without actually testing it. The same applies to Mind's Desire, but I believe that card is more broken than either Jar or Time Spiral (which I consider to be on about an even footing). Jar would certainly give MUD a shot in the arm, but honestly that deck needs more consistent mana accel to be truly good.

The MUD issue brings up a card somebody discussed a while ago, Mana Vault. I've never really thought about what unbanning this card could do, but it would certainly be interesting. Essentially, it's a more broken Grim Monolith - but the latter isn't really that broken at all, so I don't know. I think if WOTC wants to make MUD good enough to really compete (without doing something stupid like unbanning Shop) unbanning that card is the way to go. The issue is, it also strengthens combo (as it can serve as another ritual if you play engines that require lots of colorless a la Ad Nauseum). Then again, if MUD is strong, combo is in a lot of trouble (see Vintage where Tendrils decks are being hated out of the format by an onslaught of Workshop decks). Of course, it also gets countered by Mental Misstep, so it's at least something to think about.

[DragoFireheart]

The same applies to Mind's Desire, but I believe that card is more broken than either Jar or Time Spiral (which I consider to be on about an even footing).

I don't ever want to see Mind's Desire unbanned. I've seen what it can do in the old Extended lists that ran it. It would be utterly insane in Legacy.




The MUD issue brings up a card somebody discussed a while ago, Mana Vault. I've never really thought about what unbanning this card could do, but it would certainly be interesting. Essentially, it's a more broken Grim Monolith - but the latter isn't really that broken at all, so I don't know.

Mana Vault is another card to never be unbanned. It would power mud up too much. Combo decks would find a way to abuse the free mana.

[Gheizen64]

Mana Vault is another card to never be unbanned. It would power mud up too much. Combo decks would find a way to abuse the free mana.

MUD with Vault would still be a mediocre deck with shitty consistence. Even if MUD had access to retarded accelleration, the problem is that in legacy there's no prison piece that effectively hate out the entire meta. Legacy play creatures and land whereas Vintage doesn't (i'm oversimplifying here, point is that a sphere is imba in vintage, not so much in Legacy). Meandeck MUD with Vault available isn't that different from normal Meandeck MUD. It has more often explosive openings, but it's not overly strong and still fold to any decent hate past G1.

Try this for an example:

Meandeck MUD Vault:

Mana: 35 cards, 18 lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

3 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
4 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker

Spells: 25
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wurmcoil Engine

Obviously the list isn't perfect, it's a quick variation of the latest MUD that placed in a SGC Open (-diamonds+vault), but you get the idea, the deck isn't broken in the slightest.

On the other hand, AnT would get boosted a lot by Vault. Try this list, it's stupid and it's not tuned at all. The ability to go easily for T2-3 AnT after discard is so good:


Vault AnT:

3 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mana Vault
2 Chrome Mox

Running 3 AdN isn't so bad when your fundamental turn has been accellerated by half a turn.

[DragoFireheart]

Maybe I over-estimated the power it would have for MUD, but it's better to not have so much free mana sources in this format. Go play vintage for that sort of thing.

[Admiral_Arzar]

MUD with Vault would definitely run Trinisphere IMO, because having Vault dramatically increases the chances of a T1 sphere (or a T1 Lodestone Golem, for that matter). I think the resulting deck would be somewhat different from Meandeck MUD, honestly, but it would still be subject to MUD's infamous inconsistency. As I said earlier, Vault would make Ad Nauseum-based storm combo faster - but it wouldn't really improve its game against blue decks (especially as it would probably replace the un-misstepable Cabal Ritual). For Vault to make storm combo truly insane, they would have to unban Memory Jar at the same time, which is obviously ludicrous. Giving ANT better mana really doesn't do anything to offset the disadvantages of current lists (weak to a bunch of counterspells, insufficient business spells).


Maybe I over-estimated the power it would have for MUD, but it's better to not have so much free mana sources in this format. Go play vintage for that sort of thing.

And I belive that having a lot of mana acceleration available allows more archetypes to be good and makes the format more interesting (up to a point, too much of a good thing is still too much), but you probably already know that my philosophy of the format is quite different from yours. Personally, I believe Mana Vault to be on the same level as Grim Monolith, Dark Ritual, and LED rather than Lotus/Moxen/Crypt/Ring. I don't actually think they will unban it (or Jar, for that matter), but it's still interesting to think of the possibilities. I would have bet money that they wouldn't unban Time Spiral, so there you go.

[lorddotm]

Maybe I over-estimated the power it would have for MUD, but it's better to not have so much free mana sources in this format. Go play vintage for that sort of thing.

You have a hatred of mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you play Standard then?

[DragoFireheart]

You have a hatred of mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you play Standard then?


You have a love for mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you go play Vintage then?

[lorddotm]

You have a love for mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you go play Vintage then?

You don't actually know my stance on any of this.

I don't actually think LED is an issue. A deck that only sent 3 people into Day 2 at the Grand Prix is not exactly an issue. Legacy is a format with Dark Ritual, LED, Lotus Petal, etc. Get over it. Much like I get over the fact that Standard is a format without those, and that Vintage is a fun format until you remind me of Workshop. I don't think having insane amounts of mana acceleration is a good thing, but most 1 shot mana acceleration is fine (exceptions made to Black Lotus).

That being said, I definitely think Mana Vault should stay banned. Trinisphere is a card. I don't care if it still isn't an amazing deck, I don't want to play against Trinisphere, regardless of what else is going on.

[Admiral_Arzar]

You have a love for mana acceleration don't you?

Why don't you go play Vintage then?

Legacy is an ETERNAL FORMAT bro. It is not "halfway" between vintage and standard, it is not standard with more cards, it is pretty damn close to vintage. You really need to get over your hate for an entire third of the archetypes in the format, and for fast mana, which has been an integral part of BOTH eternal formats since there were eternal formats.

@ Lorddotm: yeah, Workshop kind of shits all over the delicious ice cream that would otherwise be the vintage format.

[Grollub]

There's no chance Hermit Druid and Memory Jar will ever come off the banned list. Combo is an accepted "pillar", but I find it very hard to believe DCI will unban either of the cards, considering just how massive their impact will be.

Jar: Shouldn't really need any explaination really, other than: it's not going to be used along with cute cards like Megrim...

Hermit Druid: 1 card combo. Which just happens to be protected by and immune to Mental Misstep.

@Kikoo: Diminishing Returns would see play if you could cast it off Ritual mana. Jar being colorless is a gigantic advantage.

The only card I could see getting unbanned at the moment would be Mind Twist.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't actually think LED is an issue. A deck that only sent 3 people into Day 2 at the Grand Prix is not exactly an issue...

That being said, I definitely think Mana Vault should stay banned. Trinisphere is a card.



Rationalization is the habit of searching for reasons to confirm an already existant belief. For example, consider a study where the subject has to decide whether or not to hire a prospective employee between two candidates, one black and one white. For half the study, the black candidate is better educated but has less work experience. For the other half, the black candidate has more work experience but less education. In both cases the black candidate is less likely to be hired. Why? No one says, "I don't want to hire him because he's black." They point to the fact that the other candidate has the trait that the black candidate doesn't.

And of course this is difficult to parse because some people may have legitimate reasons to lean one way or the other. How to sift those from the study group participants who are merely using that as a crutch, probably unconsciously, to justify a latent bigotry?

Trinisphere.dec is never going to be a good deck in Legacy for reasons that others have already gone over, at least not unless Workshop itself comes off the list.

Saying that Trinisphere decks are scary and LED is a fair card (remember that this also power Dredge) reveals, I think, a mere rationalization of the status quo.


Legacy is an ETERNAL FORMAT bro. It is not "halfway" between vintage and standard, it is not standard with more cards, it is pretty damn close to vintage. You really need to get over your hate for an entire third of the archetypes in the format, and for fast mana, which has been an integral part of BOTH eternal formats since there were eternal formats.

@ Lorddotm: yeah, Workshop kind of shits all over the delicious ice cream that would otherwise be the vintage format.

Unintentional irony is unintentional.

Bro.

[Admiral_Arzar]

*Large quantities of pretentious bullshit*

...

Unintentional irony is unintentional.

Bro.

Your irrational hatred of LED is well-documented at this point, so I'm just going to ignore everything other than that last bit. I don't hate MUD/Workshops - however, anyone who actually thinks that deck is FUN to play against is well...an interesting person (or perhaps an Oath player, lol). I'm not going to walk around saying ZOMG BANZ SHOPS because that would just be absurd - I'm not in the business of trying to kill off whole archetypes just because I don't find playing against them fun. Only WOTC (and apparently a bunch of people here) try and do that *facepalm*.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Your irrational hatred of LED is well-documented at this point, so I'm just going to ignore everything other than that last bit. I don't hate MUD/Workshops - however, anyone who actually thinks that deck is FUN to play against is well...an interesting person (or perhaps an Oath player, lol). I'm not going to walk around saying ZOMG BANZ SHOPS because that would just be absurd - I'm not in the business of trying to kill off whole archetypes just because I don't find playing against them fun. Only WOTC (and apparently a bunch of people here) try and do that *facepalm*.

Oh, I see, it's the very concept of having banned/restricted cards that you find offensive.

That's retarded, but you're entitled to that terrible opinion.

[GGoober]

Boring thread is boring. Why the hell are we bringing up Mana Vault? Do people even know what are good and bad cards these days??

[Michael Keller]

There's no chance Hermit Druid and Memory Jar will ever come off the banned list. Combo is an accepted "pillar", but I find it very hard to believe DCI will unban either of the cards, considering just how massive their impact will be.

Jar: Shouldn't really need any explaination really, other than: it's not going to be used along with cute cards like Megrim...

Hermit Druid: 1 card combo. Which just happens to be protected by and immune to Mental Misstep.

@Kikoo: Diminishing Returns would see play if you could cast it off Ritual mana. Jar being colorless is a gigantic advantage.

The only card I could see getting unbanned at the moment would be Mind Twist.

Most would argue that in Legacy Hymn to Tourach is for all intents and purposes functionally better than Mind Twist. While I agree Hymn has a distinct advantage of hitting two random cards for the price of BB and Mind Twist only hits one random card for (X)B, it would ultimately come down to the deck a card like Mind Twist would be somewhat playable in. It is possible you would have to build a deck around setting up a big Twist to blow out an opponent, while not blowing yourself out in the process (kind of hard not to do in Legacy).

I'd imagine the card would shine best in a Suicide shell. The big test here is setting up the foundation for a deck that doesn't have to be necessarily built around Mind Twist and is capable of exploiting its power without Black Lotus and Moxen being accessible.

[lorddotm]

Saying that Trinisphere decks are scary and LED is a fair card (remember that this also power Dredge) reveals, I think, a mere rationalization of the status quo.


LED decks aren't scary because they shit on themselves pretty often. Also they require an extremely high level of skill to pilot correctly (once again, look at the number of LED decks on Day 2).

Trinisphere decks can be piloted just as well by a monkey as they would be by Kai Budde. Losing to a terrible player with a stupid deck is not fun for anyone. Yes, Trinisphere decks shit on themselves, but they take away a huge part of the game of magic, skill, and I personally don't like that. To be fair, I'm not just saying this as a Storm player, I hate Trinisphere when I'm playing a deck that doesn't care about it. I just don't agree with cards that actively try and prevent your opponent from playing magic. You might argue that Tendrils keeps players from playing by killing them, but they usually have a chance, or they were playing an aggro deck in an Eternal format, so they should be punished.

Regardless, this is a useless discussion about who hates what cards. Mana Vault shouldn't be unbanned, the potential for breaking is too much, and LED doesn't need to be banned since Dredge can survive without it, but Storm just dies (and Storm only put 3 very good Storm players into Day 2, I don't think any made Top 32).

Back on topic.

Hermit Druid became far too good now that Misstep is a card (not to mention it gets to abuse Zenith).

Memory Jar. Seriously? Have you ever played with this card? It is pretty fucking busted.

Mystical Tutor is probably safe to unban again. Misstep goes on counter duty pretty well.

Land Tax and Mind Twist are both incredibly safe to unban. Recruiter would make Goblins a deck again, so that might be nice.

Mind's Desire (this is where people will start really disagreeing with me) is compeletly safe to unban. What Dark Ritual deck can easily get 4UU? Sure, it can win at a lower life total, but then it has to face the hate that the opponents have. I definitely think it is safe.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oh, I see, it's the very concept of having banned/restricted cards that you find offensive.

That's retarded, but you're entitled to that terrible opinion.

Your ability to read things from my posts that aren't actually there is rather interesting. Retarded, but interesting.




You might argue that Tendrils keeps players from playing by killing them, but they usually have a chance, or they were playing an aggro deck in an Eternal format, so they should be punished.

QFT LMAO. The only difference is that I actually like rocking out with my Trinisphere out once in a while...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Your ability to read things from my posts that aren't actually there is rather interesting. Retarded, but interesting.


Your irrational hatred of LED is well-documented at this point, so I'm just going to ignore everything other than that last bit.


Unintentional irony is unintentional.

[Mr.Dieth]

LED definitly needs NO ban.

Even decks that can take huge advantage ( dredge .. ) out of it don't play it !

At bom5 a NON LED dredge went top 4 and at GP Providence a NON LED dredge was 9th..

So if even those decks aren't playing it .. It really deserves no ban.

I would like to see mind twist though!

every other card isn't safe to come of the list. And certainly not mystical tutor. Do you really want to play against reanimator with 4mystical, 4mms, 4fow and 4 daze ? I wish you luck,

[Gheizen64]

LED definitly needs NO ban.

Even decks that can take huge advantage ( dredge .. ) out of it don't play it !

At bom5 a NON LED dredge went top 4 and at GP Providence a NON LED dredge was 9th..

So if even those decks aren't playing it .. It really deserves no ban.

I would like to see mind twist though!

every other card isn't safe to come of the list. And certainly not mystical tutor. Do you really want to play against reanimator with 4mystical, 4mms, 4fow and 4 daze ? I wish you luck,

Vise, Tax, Earthcraft and Twist are all pretty tame and would probably have little impact on the format. Vise is a bad card nowadays, card advantage isn't what define the format since .... 2001? In burn is a 3 to 5 damage one-mana burn spell that can be casted only on T1. It sucks. Tax would probably be played in some heavy control shell, but Loam is usually better and don't require you to twist your deck to play it. Twist has a similar problem as Vise. It was good when the format was all about card advantage and keeper mirrors, nowadays it's mediocre. Planeswalker existing doesn't help, either.
Earthcraft could boost enchantress and elves, but those aren't better than any SnT deck out there and are hateable far more easily.

There are other cards that would be interesting to see off the list, but won't be unbanned for monetary reasons (Imperial Seal) or logistic reasons (Dragon).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Vise, Tax, Earthcraft and Twist are all pretty tame and would probably have little impact on the format. Vise is a bad card nowadays, card advantage isn't what define the format since .... 2001? In burn is a 3 to 5 damage one-mana burn spell that can be casted only on T1. It sucks. Tax would probably be played in some heavy control shell, but Loam is usually better and don't require you to twist your deck to play it. Twist has a similar problem as Vise. It was good when the format was all about card advantage and keeper mirrors, nowadays it's mediocre. Planeswalker existing doesn't help, either.
Earthcraft could boost enchantress and elves, but those aren't better than any SnT deck out there and are hateable far more easily.

There are other cards that would be interesting to see off the list, but won't be unbanned for monetary reasons (Imperial Seal) or logistic reasons (Dragon).

Agreed with everything here except for Imperial Seal. Even a sorcery-speed Vampiric Tutor is still way too good, and would cause combo players the world over to JIZZ IN OUR PANTS.

[(nameless one)]

I would love to see Land Tax get unbanned but as what was stated above, it will still be banned due to logistical reasons.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To recap my position, if I controlled the DCI I wouldn't ban anything this month. I would give serious thought to unbanning one or several of the following:


Black Vise
Channel
Earthcraft
Fastbond
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Mind Twist
Shahrazad
Worldgorger Dragon

[lorddotm]

To recap my position, if I controlled the DCI I wouldn't ban anything this month. I would give serious thought to unbanning one or several of the following:


Black Vise
Channel
Earthcraft
Fastbond
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Mind Twist
Shahrazad
Worldgorger Dragon

You dislike LED but you like Channel? Weird. I think Black Vise and Fastbond shouldn't be unbanned. Everything else, I couldn't care less about. Shahrazad will never come off, but have fun.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You dislike LED but you like Channel? Weird. I think Black Vise and Fastbond shouldn't be unbanned. Everything else, I couldn't care less about. Shahrazad will never come off, but have fun.

I don't dislike LED, that's just some Admiral Ackbar keeps saying. I think LED has proven to be a ticking time bomb and will most likely need to be banned at some point in time, but I'm not rushing towards that end. With much stiffer design constraints, I don't think Channel would necessarily be the same power level though. Producing colorless mana instead of colored is a pretty big deal, and double green isn't easy for any combo deck to get to atm. It might break the format, but I think it and Fastbond are cards that have sat on the banned list for so long that no one even thinks about them being there anymore. I specifically started out copying the entire list and deleted everything I could think of a really good reason for it to stay banned. I couldn't think of any amazingly compelling reasons to keep Fastbond and Channel on there. They deserve a chance to come out of a long retirement and at least be tried out.

[lorddotm]

I don't dislike LED, that's just some Admiral Ackbar keeps saying. I think LED has proven to be a ticking time bomb and will most likely need to be banned at some point in time, but I'm not rushing towards that end. With much stiffer design constraints, I don't think Channel would necessarily be the same power level though. Producing colorless mana instead of colored is a pretty big deal, and double green isn't easy for any combo deck to get to atm. It might break the format, but I think it and Fastbond are cards that have sat on the banned list for so long that no one even thinks about them being there anymore. I specifically started out copying the entire list and deleted everything I could think of a really good reason for it to stay banned. I couldn't think of any amazingly compelling reasons to keep Fastbond and Channel on there. They deserve a chance to come out of a long retirement and at least be tried out.

The problem with Channel is all you ahve to do is make GG then you win. GG pay 7 life and Belcher, or pay 15 and Emrakul, who really cares, you could even drop a Blightsteel and Greeves it up to kill someone. Getting GG is only a Land and a Petal/Mox/ESG away on turn 1.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The problem with Channel is all you ahve to do is make GG then you win. GG pay 7 life and Belcher, or pay 15 and Emrakul, who really cares, you could even drop a Blightsteel and Greeves it up to kill someone. Getting GG is only a Land and a Petal/Mox/ESG away on turn 1.

Yeah, but combo thrives on consistency, not potential. Like is your gameplan with Channel really to hardcast Emrakul? What happens turn two after Zoo's hit you with a Nacatl and has a red land open? Suddenly your entire deck sucks. Belcher, eh. I mean I guess you'd run Channel in CRET Belcher but that's a pretty fair combo deck imho.

[lorddotm]

Yeah, but combo thrives on consistency, not potential. Like is your gameplan with Channel really to hardcast Emrakul? What happens turn two after Zoo's hit you with a Nacatl and has a red land open? Suddenly your entire deck sucks. Belcher, eh. I mean I guess you'd run Channel in CRET Belcher but that's a pretty fair combo deck imho.

Channel could potentially allow for a Belcher list with Force. That kind of scares me.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That doesn't sound very good, but I will concede that Channel is almost certainly the most dangerous card on that list.

I just don't think a card should be banned based upon raw speculation and fifteen year old memories.

[lorddotm]

That doesn't sound very good, but I will concede that Channel is almost certainly the most dangerous card on that list.

I just don't think a card should be banned based upon raw speculation and fifteen year old memories.

I have no idea, I'm sure there is something you can do with tons of colourless mana.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm sure there is, but the challenge is getting Channel and those game winners and the mana to cast Channel all together in your hand consistently, and in time to actually be able to enact this plan, and through Wasteland, discard, counters and the rogue Gaddock Teeg.

If I saw a list that looked actually broken, that'd be one thing. But it's no sin to win, or be capable of it. This is what I mean about people rationalizing the status quo, you suggest that a card that's clearly running over the format might be bannable and people freak out and call you a whiner. Suggest that a card that might form a good deck be unbanned and people act like you're crazy.

People talking about how it's "safe" to unban Land Tax is just fucking eye-rippingly tedious. Why not talk about unbanning some cards that aren't safe but that are interesting?

[lorddotm]

I'm sure there is, but the challenge is getting Channel and those game winners and the mana to cast Channel all together in your hand consistently, and in time to actually be able to enact this plan, and through Wasteland, discard, counters and the rogue Gaddock Teeg.

If I saw a list that looked actually broken, that'd be one thing. But it's no sin to win, or be capable of it. This is what I mean about people rationalizing the status quo, you suggest that a card that's clearly running over the format might be bannable and people freak out and call you a whiner. Suggest that a card that might form a good deck be unbanned and people act like you're crazy.

People talking about how it's "safe" to unban Land Tax is just fucking eye-rippingly tedious. Why not talk about unbanning some cards that aren't safe but that are interesting?

Like Mind's Desire?

I understand what you mean, maybe Channel is safe, I just don't think it is because of the history of the card, and absolute blow out potential. Usually paying 1 life for 1 of an effect is dangerous (ala Necro, Bargain, Channel, Fastbond, etc.)

Fastbond I want to be unbanned, I just dont think it will be. (Unless Fastbond gets paired up with lock pieces like Chalice and Trini).

[Tammit67]

I think lands decks would be damn scary should fastbond get unbanned. Every list runs intuition or enlightened tutor and tolaria west. Crucible + zuran orb for infinite life, a fetch to provide enough mana to do anything, ghost quarter to lock you out. I don't think it is a very safe unban.

I'd love to see desire come off, but I can only really say that Land tax is safe, and probably mind twist.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think that Fastbond + Crucible + Zuran Orb/Ghost Quarter is a combo I can live with. That's not even remotely terrifying. I'm not saying it wouldn't make Lands a good deck, I'm just saying there's no way it can ever unfairly dominant.

@lorddotm:

Well, besides just not wanting to give more blue tools in particular, I've actually seen Minds' Desire lists that look scary. I haven't seen a Channel list that looks both powerful and consistent.

[Admiral_Arzar]

People talking about how it's "safe" to unban Land Tax is just fucking eye-rippingly tedious. Why not talk about unbanning some cards that aren't safe but that are interesting?

Oh shit IBA, I actually agree with something you said. The universe explodes tomorrow. Also, my name is ARZAR, not ACKBAR (yeah, it's not a trap).

Anyways, Channel scares me, for pretty much the same reasons Lorddotm enumerated. Actually, I think it wouldn't be too bad in Belcher - however, giving U/G SnT-esque decks a way to hardcast Emrakul on turn 1-2 (often with counter backup) strikes me as unnecessarily busted.

Fastbond is a lot less scary without Gush in the format. Those two simply cannot be allowed to coexist - it leads to insanity, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. By itself, I'm not exactly sure what it would do - probably enable a silly lands combo deck with Horn of Greed, which sounds entertaining. It might make Spring Tide really scary, also (Oh look, Turn 1-2 Time Spiral!).

If I were to make a list of cards that I would consider unbanning one at a time to (really) shake things up, it would look like this:

Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Land Tax
Black Vise
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Worldgorger Dragon
Fastbond
Goblin Recruiter

I would really like to say Mind's Desire as it's probably my favorite card in magic, but I'm not sure if the format is ready for the abomination of Long.dec (although there is a LOT of blue, so maybe). Note that I said "one at a time" - Mana Vault and Memory Jar unbanned at the same time would likely cause the format to implode.

Discuss, or just call me loony/stupid. Either one works, I suppose.

EDIT: @ IBA: my comments about you hating LED/storm (LED basically IS storm, as the archetype would be awful without it) were not based on this thread, they came from reading some rant by you a year or two ago about how the card was retarded broken and needed to go, even though it wasn't doing anything in the format. I have no idea what thread it was in.

[(nameless one)]

I would shit my pants if they unban Memory Jar. It would give Storm based combo a secondary draw engine and would certainly make Welder-MUD decks better.

It could even return a long lost archetype: Megrim-Jar.

[menace13]

Mana Vault... Yeah! Unban that, who doesn't love playing against turn 2(or turn 1 if colorless) Jace, Ad Naus, Tezz, Moat, Sneak Attack, Dream Halls, Elspeth, Jace, Belcher, Painter+Grindstone, Jace, Shackles, Crucible, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, Jace, Forgemaster, Metalworker, Sword, Plating+their entire hand, Aluren, and lastly Jace.

[Solar Ice]

Jar is stupid broken (can't believe that people are seriously discussing unbanning it). Fastbond? LOL. Facing Lands with 4 of those is something I never want to experience. That card is insanely imba as well and would pretty much force people to run it or get far behind in the game. As much as I love Desire, if it were to be unbanned, then LED, Ritual and possibly Petal would have to get the axe straight away.

The only cards that can, imo, safely be taken off are Mind Twist and Earthcraft. Land Tax is worth considering although it is +3 CA for 1 mana every turn, albeit conditionally.

Just remember that it is not like Vintage where a restricted card can only be played as a singleton so even if a card is busted, as a one off it may not show it's true power. Unbanning anything in Legacy means that an entire playset is allowed. Imagine decks sporting playsets of Jar, Bond, Vault, etc...

[Lemnear]

Land tax feat. Brainstorm and Jace means Ancestral Recall off a one-mana-enchantment everything turn!

SCG's Carsten Kotter did those kind of shenanigans with Squadron Hawks in our latest tournament in Berlin and won the whole thing by multi hawk-cestral-ing every game. I guess he'll drop some lines soon, so I won't post any details now.

[Gheizen64]

Land tax feat. Brainstorm and Jace means Ancestral Recall off a one-mana-enchantment everything turn!

SCG's Carsten Kotter did those kind of shenanigans with Squadron Hawks in our latest tournament in Berlin and won the whole thing by multi hawk-cestral-ing every game. I guess he'll drop some lines soon.

Loam do that without having to stay on one land against Zoo/Goblin/Merfolk.

[Lemnear]

Loam replaces the regular draw by it's dredge ability, works only well with multiple lands in the grave and once you shuffle them all via Brain-/jace-storming into your library the cardadvantage is gone. That is a significant difference

[Gheizen64]

Loam replaces the regular draw by it's dredge ability, works only well with multiple lands in the grave and once you shuffle them all via Brain-/jace-storming into your library the cardadvantage is gone. That is a significant difference

Because Tax magically always trigger? Both are conditional, but tax has the worst restriction, especially for a control deck. Loam allow you to play your game (answering threats) early on and then get card advantage when it will really matter, from midgame on.

Having Jace + Tax active is nearly impossible against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblin, Ichorid, Elves and so on.

Unban Tax + Vise + twist = no changes in legacy. I would take a bet on it if only WotC had the balls to unrestrict all those cards at once.

[Lemnear]

Tax could make Path to Exile and Co. really good.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.

Life from the Loam is approximately a hundred times better than Land Tax. The card represents no threat at all. It's probably the least powerful card that's ever been banned in this format, including the old 1.5 cards like Berserk and Regrowth and even Braingeyser.

[Tammit67]

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.



Not only to agree with you, but if you replace 'Land tax' with 'Memory Jar', and the 'much less broken' with 'absolutely broken', you have my stance on Jar. I can't take people seriously when they entertain Jar not being busted in legacy.

[Admiral_Arzar]

As a rule, and not to sound like too much of a dick, but I just tend to ignore at this point anyone saying anything about Land Tax potentially being playable, much less broken. It means that either

a) They haven't actually tested the card, or

b) They just don't understand the power level of Legacy.

Or both.

Life from the Loam is approximately a hundred times better than Land Tax. The card represents no threat at all. It's probably the least powerful card that's ever been banned in this format, including the old 1.5 cards like Berserk and Regrowth and even Braingeyser.

I still believe that the only reason Land Tax is still on the ban list is the time issue. Also, the only reason Dragon is still banned IMO is the random draws the combo generates.


Not only to agree with you, but if you replace 'Land tax' with 'Memory Jar', and the 'much less broken' with 'absolutely broken', you have my stance on Jar. I can't take people seriously when they entertain Jar not being busted in legacy.

All of these posts are ignoring why I and others are posting cards like this. It gets fucking boring to just talk about "acceptable" cards all day long, especially when the arguments about those cards have happened approximately 32675475478 times already. I would MUCH rather think about what would happen if WOTC dropped a bomb like Jar on the format than the little that would likely happen if cards like Tax or Twist came off.

[Tammit67]

All of these posts are ignoring why I and others are posting cards like this. It gets fucking boring to just talk about "acceptable" cards all day long, especially when the arguments about those cards have happened approximately 32675475478 times already. I would MUCH rather think about what would happen if WOTC dropped a bomb like Jar on the format than the little that would likely happen if cards like Tax or Twist came off.

It is a nice thought exercise, sure. But in the same post to list a bunch of cards you'd like to see unbanned then claim you'd "like to see desire come off too, but it might be too powerful"... That implied to me you don't think cards on this unban list are too powerful. And I'd have to disagree with Jar being remotely safe. And that is where I am coming from.

[DragoFireheart]

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

[Gheizen64]

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

WotC would never ban an answer card (drain isn't an answer card, it's an engine). If anything they'll ban SnT or Brainstorm. Especially if next week Hive mind continue to place in tournaments WotC will cry all over and ban SnT because it make design space "narrower" ("wee i can't design anymore a 15 mana creature that win the game, how fucking bad!" maybe using an hardcast clause next time? so zzz).

Also we are still waiting for Bad Tax and Bad Vise, thx.

[Shawon]

More unbannings, less bannings, I say. Mana Vault, Earthcraft, etc.

[Gheizen64]

More unbannings, less bannings, I say. Mana Vault, Earthcraft, etc.

Vault is too good, see the thread of "unban decklist challenge".

[Admiral_Arzar]

Vault is too good, see the thread of "unban decklist challenge".

*Yawn* Until the card is unbanned, we'll never know if it is actually "too good." Grim Monolith and Metalworker haven't turned the format upside down. Otherwise, we have no precedent for Vault as it has been banned for the entire existence of the format.

[TorpidNinja]

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

No.

[Gheizen64]

*Yawn* Until the card is unbanned, we'll never know if it is actually "too good." Grim Monolith and Metalworker haven't turned the format upside down. Otherwise, we have no precedent for Vault as it has been banned for the entire existence of the format.

A decklist that is actually too strong is pretty good evidence. Of course, if you prefer theorycrafting, that's ok too.

[Admiral_Arzar]

A decklist that is actually too strong is pretty good evidence. Of course, if you prefer theorycrafting, that's ok too.

Even if such a decklist exists, whether it is "too strong" or not would be based on subjective criteria. For example, saying that ANT with Mana Vault shits all over zoo is irrelevant, as ANT without it already does so. You would need to test the deck against all of its bad matchups - if they all of a sudden became positive, then the card is indeed a problem. I actually might do this myself at some point with various Storm decks - Mana Vault, Mind's Desire, Jar, etc, running whatever deck it was against a gaunlet of Team America, Dreadstill, Tempo Threshold, MUD or Chalice Aggro, and Merfolk (the latter for the "coin flip" matchup).

[Greenpoe]

Wizards should just print fixed versions of banned cards, such as Survival of the Fittest where you exile a card from your hand instead of discarding it (which kills Ooze combo, Retainers combo, Vengevine), or a mix between Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor, using the worst of all three (Sorcery that costs BB and 3 life and puts a card on top of your library). If Grim Tutor sucks, and Demonic Tutor is broken, then a topdeck 2-mana tutor that costs life should be OK on power-level. Perhaps even Necroptence that costs BBBB or Balance that costs 1WW would be nice.

[Gheizen64]

Even if such a decklist exists, whether it is "too strong" or not would be based on subjective criteria. For example, saying that ANT with Mana Vault shits all over zoo is irrelevant, as ANT without it already does so. You would need to test the deck against all of its bad matchups - if they all of a sudden became positive, then the card is indeed a problem. I actually might do this myself at some point with various Storm decks - Mana Vault, Mind's Desire, Jar, etc, running whatever deck it was against a gaunlet of Team America, Dreadstill, Tempo Threshold, MUD or Chalice Aggro, and Merfolk (the latter for the "coin flip" matchup).

I dunno if everyone here lately is purposely trolling or high as robbie williams, but what you're saying has already been done (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19597-Legacy-Deckbuilding-Challenge-The-B-R-List/page7). Not every card has been tested obviously, and testing isn't perfect since it ignore the shift in the meta, however that's a starting point and go beyond the usual "OMG UNBAN OMG".

Also i'd like you to avoid assuming that i'm retard with that Zoo vs AnT and whatsnot, thanks.

EDIT: i see you've even posted in that topic, so i'm not sure anymore what to do of this conversation.

[Koby]

Wizards should just print fixed versions of banned cards, such as Survival of the Fittest where you exile a card from your hand instead of discarding it (which kills Ooze combo, Retainers combo, Vengevine),

Fauna Shaman
Green Sun's Zenith


or a mix between Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and Grim Tutor, using the worst of all three (Sorcery that costs BB and 3 life and puts a card on top of your library). If Grim Tutor sucks, and Demonic Tutor is broken, then a topdeck 2-mana tutor that costs life should be OK on power-level.

Cruel Tutor


Perhaps even Necroptence that costs BBBB or Balance that costs 1WW would be nice.
Necrologia
Restore Balance

:eek:

[Admiral_Arzar]

Not every card has been tested obviously, and testing isn't perfect since it ignore the shift in the meta, however that's a starting point and go beyond the usual "OMG UNBAN OMG".

Also i'd like you to avoid assuming that i'm retard with that Zoo vs AnT and whatsnot, thanks.

EDIT: i see you've even posted in that topic, so i'm not sure anymore what to do of this conversation.

You answered your own question with the first line - not every card has been tested, and they likely haven't been tested against the right decks. I wasn't attempting to make you look like a retard (and apologize if I came off that way), that was just the first example that popped into my head - any deck will seem absurd if you test it against an already awesome matchup.

@ Rukcus: I don't think Necro and Balance can be printed at reasonable costs - their effects are just too absurd (Remember Yawgmoth's Bargain? That's when they tried to "fix" Necro).

[Sims]

@ Rukcus: I don't think Necro and Balance can be printed at reasonable costs - their effects are just too absurd (Remember Yawgmoth's Bargain? That's when they tried to "fix" Necro).

Well, to be fair, by "fixing it" they made it better. "Pay 1 life: Draw a card" is, i'm sure you'll agree, much better than "Pay 1 life: remove the top card of your library from the game and put it into your hand at the beginning of the next end step." While obviously 3 mana is much easier to get to than 6 even if it's more color intense, the effect is much more efficient at enabling combo to win right then and there.

Would Necro that actually delays the draw at 3BBB or 4BB be broken? If you're hardcasting it? Who knows, I'm inclined to say no. But people would find ways of cheating it in, and at that point it'd probably be less balanced.

[Koby]

Like we need more reasons to make Show and Tell broken...



Would Necro that actually delays the draw at 3BBB or 4BB be broken? If you're hardcasting it? Who knows, I'm inclined to say no. But people would find ways of cheating it in, and at that point it'd probably be less balanced.

Swamp, Ritual x2, Lotus Petal - Necro @ 6 mana. Not any more broken than Ad Nauseum, but any amount of black mana in the cost won't matter. These decks will already be maxing out Ritual effects either way.

[lorddotm]

If there is too much of a blue-saturation within the coming months, would the idea of banning Mental Misstep be a good idea?

Yes it would be, with that being said, it will never happen.

Mental Misstep killed a ton of the variation in Legacy, which is no fun.

[jjflipped]

So... the only bannable card on the poll is LED. That said, misstep might be more hurtful to the format than any other card, including most of the cards on the ban-list.

[Honorik]

Really MM should go ...

[DrJones]

Does anyone remember what happened when WotC printed Fauna Shaman?

Edit: and Wasteland?

[SurFitOfTheVine]

Does anyone remember what happened when WotC printed Fauna Shaman?

Edit: and Wasteland?

If you're insinuating they'll ban FoW, forget it. That won't happen.

EDIT: If anything, they should ban Jace, which is far more annoying and overpowered when backed up by a pure control deck. But that won't happen either.

[Nonex]

Does anyone remember what happened when WotC printed Fauna Shaman?

Nothing happened. If you are referring to Survival, it was banned a few months later because of Vengevine.


Edit: and Wasteland?

I don't know, I wasn't playing at that time. However, I highly doubt it had anything to do with banning Strip Mine.

And yes, I know where you are trying to go. Answers are never so efficient as to deserve a ban, threats can and some effectively are. Force of Will is an answer, and a crappy one at that, yet it's a basic pillar of the format. Guess what I mean by that.


Back to the topic, I think Survival could shake this blue-infested metagame quite well, it just needs to have Vengevine banned first. It won't happen, though. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they banned Show and Tell.

[Koby]

Does anyone remember what happened when WotC printed Fauna Shaman?

People were going ape shit over Titans, and ignoring Vengevine.


Edit: and Wasteland?

People were going ape shit over Cursed Scroll, ProsBloom, Tradewind Rider, and other old stand-ins. That is, Wasteland wasn't even relevant.

[DrJones]

And yes, I know where you are trying to go. Answers are never so efficient as to deserve a ban, threats can and some effectively are. Force of Will is an answer, and a crappy one at that, yet it's a basic pillar of the format. Guess what I mean by that.That you reach flawed conclusions because you part from flawed assumptions. And then you finish your flawed argumentation by contradicting yourself in one sentence.

Also, the last big tourneys (Jupiter Games North American Legacy Championship Tournament June 11th) and the Spanish LCL June had zero Show and Tell in Top 8 and a blue-infested metagame with Dredge being the only deck able to fight blue (by not casting spells). So banning SnT will not fix anything.

Edit: Just checked it again, the Reanimator had no Show and Tell in his 75.

[SpikeyMikey]

Arzar, they made a balanced Necro. It's called Phyrexian Arena. Or Greed, if you like. Some effects can't be balanced by mana costs alone. Imagine an enchantment that said "when this comes into play, if this is in play, you win the game.". What's a reasonable mana cost for this card? No one is every going to cast it. They're going to Rector it or SnT it making the mana irrelevant. You'd need a "if you played this from your hand" clause or "if you control a red permanent and a green permanent.". Something to further balance the card.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Arzar, they made a balanced Necro. It's called Phyrexian Arena. Or Greed, if you like. Some effects can't be balanced by mana costs alone. Imagine an enchantment that said "when this comes into play, if this is in play, you win the game.". What's a reasonable mana cost for this card? No one is every going to cast it. They're going to Rector it or SnT it making the mana irrelevant. You'd need a "if you played this from your hand" clause or "if you control a red permanent and a green permanent.". Something to further balance the card.

That's exactly what I said, I don't think that (Necro) effect can be made balanced at a reasonable cost. Glad we agree lol.

[Sims]

Like we need more reasons to make Show and Tell broken...



Swamp, Ritual x2, Lotus Petal - Necro @ 6 mana. Not any more broken than Ad Nauseum, but any amount of black mana in the cost won't matter. These decks will already be maxing out Ritual effects either way.

It would be busted with SnT or Rector now that the format is slowing down a hair, I'm not going to deny that. Necro-Bargain effects are inherently broken effects. I guess I was just musing in an environment today with 1 mana disenchants and a disenchant effect that prevents you from activating it further, would a necro effect that costs 6 or more mana with the delayed draw trigger be as dangerous as bargain or true-necro? There's a good chance of it, but as you said, you might as well be leaving 1 mana floating and casting Ad Nauseum so you get the cards right away instead of waiting to get the cards and winning the following turn.

And no, I'm not advocating the unbanning of any Necro effect. I'm not that stupid. But considering they once said "there is no mana cost you could print yawgmoth's will at and make it balanced" and then they printed a balanced and arguably more powerful Yawgmoths Will at a higher and more intensive manacost in a different color... there probably could be a balanced necro effect if designs were worked on enough.

[Amon Amarth]

You don't consider Ad Nauseum a "balanced" Necro effect?

[DrJones]

Necrologia hasn't destroyed any format, as far as I know.

[Pippin]

Necrologia hasn't destroyed any format, as far as I know.

nor has Force of Will ;)

[Sims]

You don't consider Ad Nauseum a "balanced" Necro effect?

I was talking more a permanent based Necro-effect, but yes if you branch out into the 1-shots, Necrologia and Ad Nauseum are fairly balanced necro effects.

[DrJones]

nor has Force of Will ;)That's not entirely true, Force of Will would have been banned in old Extended but Wizards chose to change it into a rotating format instead. It seems that they can't just ban counterspells without blue players dying in shock. More examples: they created Legacy to avoid banning Mana Drain in Vintage (and said it was banned due to short supply), they created Modern to avoid banning FoW in legacy; and they had to lie when they banned Sensei's Divining Top to avoid saying that Counterbalance was too strong.

Edit: And right now the format is dumb due to excessive abuse of free counterspells. Yada yada.

[swoop]

Right.

[Sims]

That's not entirely true, Force of Will would have been banned in old Extended but Wizards chose to change it into a rotating format instead. It seems that they can't just ban counterspells without blue players dying in shock. More examples: they created Legacy to avoid banning Mana Drain in Vintage (and said it was banned due to short supply), they created Modern to avoid banning FoW in legacy; and they had to lie when they banned Sensei's Divining Top to avoid saying that Counterbalance was too strong.

Edit: And right now the format is dumb due to excessive abuse of free counterspells. Yada yada.

You just don't like countermagic, do you?

[five]

Haven't you guys heard? They are unbanning Black Vise in an attempt to reign in blue. Oops, they forgot about Trinket Mage (and Mental Misstep!). Oh well, you should still pick 'em up while they are only $1. Jk.

Sorry guys, that was kind of dumb...

[Kich867]

That's not entirely true, Force of Will would have been banned in old Extended but Wizards chose to change it into a rotating format instead. It seems that they can't just ban counterspells without blue players dying in shock. More examples: they created Legacy to avoid banning Mana Drain in Vintage (and said it was banned due to short supply), they created Modern to avoid banning FoW in legacy; and they had to lie when they banned Sensei's Divining Top to avoid saying that Counterbalance was too strong.

Edit: And right now the format is dumb due to excessive abuse of free counterspells. Yada yada.

So, let's just say for arguments sake they ban all forms of free countermagic:
Force of Will
Mental Misstep
Counterbalance
Disrupting Shoal
Foil
Thwart
Daze
Mindbreak Trap
etc.

I'm just genuinely curious what you would do to stop basically any combo deck. Let's say Spiral Tide or ANT or Elf Combo, all of which can generate a tremendous amount of mana and draw a tremendous amount of cards.

[Gheizen64]

Haven't you guys heard? They are unbanning Black Vise in an attempt to reign in blue. Oops, they forgot about Trinket Mage (and Mental Misstep!). Oh well, you should still pick 'em up while they are only $1. Jk.

Sorry guys, that was kind of dumb...

Lol vise after trinket? Gj you fetched an useless artifact on T3...

Vise is barely playable as of now even if it came out unbanned. Steppe Lynx and Goblin Guide are much better anti-control card nowadays, especially with FoW empting your hand the instant you play another spell after Vise.

EDIT: i'd love to break standstills with vise however :D

[Dark Ritual]

Not to mention that vise fails the misstep test i.e. control will misstep it on the spot or force it or not care and just dump their hand somehow to avoid the damage. Black vise could come off and the biggest use would be in the control mirror out of the board.

[Malchar]

So, let's just say for arguments sake they ban all forms of free countermagic:
Force of Will
Mental Misstep
Counterbalance
Disrupting Shoal
Foil
Thwart
Daze
Mindbreak Trap
etc.

I'm just genuinely curious what you would do to stop basically any combo deck. Let's say Spiral Tide or ANT or Elf Combo, all of which can generate a tremendous amount of mana and draw a tremendous amount of cards.

trinisphere
chalice of the void
thorn of amethyst
pyrostatic pillar
ethersworn canonist
and for non storm decks:
disenchant
krosan grip
lightning bolt

Of course, free counters don't really stop storm decks anyway.

Free counters probably help combo decks more than they hurt them. For example, with force of will, the combo deck can tap out to play their pieces and still have a counter available. As for the card disadvantage inherent in fow, it doesn't matter because the combo deck is going to win immediately anyway. The same is true in general for any free counter that has a disadvantage later.

Meanwhile, the opponent who didn't have to tap out can freely play normal counterspells to stop the combo player, so having free counters doesn't help them as much. It becomes a game of "how much mana do they have open?" instead of "how many cards in their hand are free counters?"



That said, I think that less cards should be on the ban list rather than more, and free counters are perfectly fair.

[Kich867]

I get the feeling he would also prefer Chalice to be banned, as it's another source of manaless counter.

My point is that many combo decks can generate enough mana and cards in hand and free counters are all that can really deal with the potential of things like not going first. If you're on the draw and ANT duresses your only counter, you're kind of SOL. Disenchant / Krosan Grip can't stop a Candelabra from untapping lands (it resolves, you have priority to use it's ability before they have priority to Grip it) and to an extent, yeah, mass creature kill can stop elves if you hit the right ones.

It would come down to basically just hoping you can get enough land drops for the ~2 counters you might be able to play before you die, like I get that you agree they shouldn't be removed, I just don't see combo not dominating if they ban all of the free counters / the format not devolving into a Combo VS Deck designed to stop counter battles.

[lorddotm]

So, let's just say for arguments sake they ban all forms of free countermagic:
Force of Will
Mental Misstep
Counterbalance
Disrupting Shoal
Foil
Thwart
Daze
Mindbreak Trap
etc.

I'm just genuinely curious what you would do to stop basically any combo deck. Let's say Spiral Tide or ANT or Elf Combo, all of which can generate a tremendous amount of mana and draw a tremendous amount of cards.

Why play those decks, they are slow, Belcher would be the nuts.

Imagine how open the format would be without Mental Misstep. SFM decks, Vial decks, Easily hated combo (Storm), etc. It would be very interesting.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

That's not entirely true, Force of Will would have been banned in old Extended but Wizards chose to change it into a rotating format instead. It seems that they can't just ban counterspells without blue players dying in shock. More examples: they created Legacy to avoid banning Mana Drain in Vintage (and said it was banned due to short supply), they created Modern to avoid banning FoW in legacy; and they had to lie when they banned Sensei's Divining Top to avoid saying that Counterbalance was too strong.

Edit: And right now the format is dumb due to excessive abuse of free counterspells. Yada yada.

This has to be one of the funniest reinterpretations of reality so that it fits someones personal convictions I've read in a long time. Are you even aware what you're writing? Extended was made a rotational format to avoid banning FoW? Legacy was created to avoid banning Drain? Modern is being tried out because of Force of Will? Your WotC blue-player conspiracy theories are actually much more hilarious than I thought. Thanks for the laugh!

[DrJones]

I think the problem is that you are looking at the problem from a blind alley, so any solution to get out of it looks like a step back from the current situation. Fact is, nobody wants a format where the only option is to play combo decks that kill in one turn, because that is stupid.

The problem is that the presence of free counterspells has created a syndrome of "dust under the rug" in which the designers have allowed these crazy combo decks to run rampant because they could always be stopped by Force of Will. As the time passes, the "dust under the rug" gets bigger until there are so many broken combo decks around that if you don't play Force of Will you can't win. At one moment in time, Force of Will starts running short and you need more free counters. Following this strategy severely unbalances the game towards blue and towards even more broken combos, and the game designers can't print proper hate against blue because it will go automatically into the combo decks. A real trainwreck of a format, also known as vintage.

Take free counters out of equation. A deck appears that kills you on turn 0. Everyone agrees that it's stupid, a piece of it is banned, and the format is fixed without having to argue with morons that claim it's okay because they play blue and will just counter it with FoW. This strategy requires more bannings, but is far better in the long run, and cards can get unbanned as answers get printed.

And yet, I believe the game can do okay with a small amount of free "soft counters" that are metagame dependant and can be fought by using "counterintelligence" at deckbuilding. It's not an effect that you want at such quantity and redundancy levels that "having to cast spells to win" is a losing strategy unless you play blue, though. And that's what we got now. The best choice would be to ban the "hard counter" that originated this situation on the first hand.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

So what you envision for the format is the banning of FoW, followed by banning everything that enables fast (as in goldfishing between turn 1 and 3) combo decks to be played? Did I understand that correctly?

[DrJones]

Yes. However Wizards has printed lately a lot of answers to fast combo, so it would be a matter to see if combo can fight through it. Combo also has a problem in that it can't be too fast because it loses to itself due to inconsistency, and even cards that only slows the combo down open the door for better answers. And if all this fails, Wizards can still print more cards against combo that are bad in combo decks.

For example, let's say wizards prints a card like this one:

Daring Ichneumon G
Creature - Mongoose
Players can only spend mana produced by basic lands to cast instant and sorcery spells.
1/1

I think that would really hurt most combo decks. What if it's not enough? Maybe that would prove LED to be too strong and deserve a ban. Would that situation be so bad that you would leave the format?

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Actually what I was really interested in was having proof that your goal was to turn Legacy into a totally different format. Mission accomplished.
What you don't seem to understand is that there is a large part of the magic-playing populace that enjoys playing with and against "broken" combo-decks. Legacy is, among other things, the format where they can still do that without needing access to the P9 (and a large group of other players that also do).
Removing that element from Legacy makes it not Legacy any more. Different formats exist in a large part so that all the different player demographics can have a place to enjoy themselves. So if changing the format to a totally different one that's closer to what you consider playing "real" Magic is what you're going for, you're probably just not playing the correct format. May I suggest trying out overextended? The way it's set up, it sounds like exactly the theoretical version of Legacy you're supporting. Note that FoW is banned in Overextended already by simple necessity.
Please don't take this as a flame, an attack, or anything like it. With the position you're supporting I genuinely believe you might be happier just playing a format more suited to your tastes while leaving those of us that don't share them to enjoy Legacy the way it is.

And, as you asked, yeah, I might well quit Legacy at that point as it would likely devolve into nothing but the same creature on creature battles you see in smaller formats. Strategic variety is what makes Legacy so awesome. I just love having to play a long, drawn out control mirror round one, face the threat of fast annihilation by quick threats Zoo provides in round two and get the adrenaline-kick of being constantly threatened with a win out of nowhere from facing combo round three, repeated again and again in different forms and even mixed versions throughout the tournament.
Removing that to replace it with another only fair decks environment kills the format for me. We just have totally different visions of what a good format looks like and I have the impression the majority of Legacy players is closer to my way of seeing it than yours, considering how ban FoW debates usually end and how Ari Lax's (old) article on the Starkington Post (http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/_/1519) detailing how to make Legacy fair was received (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18485-Article-Fixing-Legacy).

[bakofried]

This is Legacy. If you don't like broken shit, play something else. I'm sorry Dr. Jones, but from what you said, you don't want to play Legacy.

[menace13]

The problem is that the presence of free counterspells has created a syndrome of "dust under the rug" in which the designers have allowed these crazy combo decks to run rampant because they could always be stopped by Force of Will. As the time passes, the "dust under the rug" gets bigger until there are so many broken combo decks around that if you don't play Force of Will you can't win. At one moment in time, Force of Will starts running short and you need more free counters. Following this strategy severely unbalances the game towards blue and towards even more broken combos, and the game designers can't print proper hate against blue because it will go automatically into the combo decks. A real trainwreck of a format, also known as vintage.


Blue has always been unbalanced. It is not something that just began to occur at this moment in time. Besides artifacts blue has the MOST Banned cards(and Restricted in Vintage) of any other color. It has always been this way.

Ugh!.. And your whole description of Vintage is off. Totaly, couldn't be more wrong."WotC Can't print Proper blue hate for fear of it going into combo decks to balance out against blue"....?? Wtf?

Go play some eternal formats, top 8 anywhere, just go play eternal before you speak. This is Hurting my eyes and my head simultaneously.

[Malchar]

My point is that many combo decks can generate enough mana and cards in hand and free counters are all that can really deal with the potential of things like not going first. If you're on the draw and ANT duresses your only counter, you're kind of SOL. Disenchant / Krosan Grip can't stop a Candelabra from untapping lands (it resolves, you have priority to use it's ability before they have priority to Grip it) and to an extent, yeah, mass creature kill can stop elves if you hit the right ones.

Purely for the sake of argument:

Combo decks don't spontaneously generate extra mana or card advantage compared to a control deck. Dark Ritual - for example - can be countered.

You can always make up situations where the opponent has an extra swamp untapped and a Duress in hand, and it will always blow out whatever the opponent is doing. On a purely theoretical level, trading Duress for Counterspell is perfectly fair. However, it's not fair to then assume that one person has an Ad Nauseam and enough mana to cast it while the opponent has nothing.

Anyway, my point is that any card which generates an absurd amount of extra mana or card drawing can always just be countered by normal counterspells. They tap five for Ad Nauseam, I tap two for counterspell. I win. If they tap one for duress, I lose an extra counterspell, but it hasn't cost me any mana. If they're investing one mana for a dark ritual or two before playing ad nauseam, then bring out the Disrupts! Sure, sometimes you won't find enough counterspells in time, but sometimes the combo deck won't be able to assemble their pieces either.

[Kich867]

Yes. However Wizards has printed lately a lot of answers to fast combo, so it would be a matter to see if combo can fight through it. Combo also has a problem in that it can't be too fast because it loses to itself due to inconsistency, and even cards that only slows the combo down open the door for better answers. And if all this fails, Wizards can still print more cards against combo that are bad in combo decks.

For example, let's say wizards prints a card like this one:

Daring Ichneumon G
Creature - Mongoose
Players can only spend mana produced by basic lands to cast instant and sorcery spells.
1/1

I think that would really hurt most combo decks. What if it's not enough? Maybe that would prove LED to be too strong and deserve a ban. Would that situation be so bad that you would leave the format?

That wouldn't hurt combo decks, it would kill them, and it would also basically ruin every deck. Every single deck that exists would lose to that card. Literally the entire format would have to change given the existence of it. (To clarify: In order to remove that creature, the most efficient spell would be Swords to Plowshares. That would require a single plains--if your deck even runs a basic plains, you probably only run 1, maybe 2. In that case you need a white fetch which there may be 2-4 of. The likelihood of seeing a plains or the 2-4 fetches you run that can hit white before you die to Tarmogoyf is low.)

Most decks are ~3 colors and almost exclusively run nonbasic lands, the only playable spells would be creatures.

If that card existed, I would not play Legacy or any format it's legal in as it would immediately dominate unless you built your deck around the potential of your opponent having it--which means your deck is horrible and inconsistent with a terrible mana-base.

If you don't mind me asking Dr. Jones what would your ideal Legacy format actually look like? This post gives the impression (apologies if this is off base) that you don't like non-basic lands, combo, countermagic, and non-creature spells in general, as the idea to create a card like that would imply we should all be playing mono-green creature-only decks.

[Humphrey]

unbanning blackvise isnt going to happen, every deck will run them as 4ofs

[Gheizen64]

unbanning blackvise isnt going to happen, every deck will run them as 4ofs

...sry, whut?

Vise sucks. Format isn't defined by keeper mirrors anymore, it's a tempo-driven format where Vise wouldn't do shit, especially after MM. Also, just for information's sake, Vise was banned/restricted everywhere before FoW was ever printed. With FoW in the format, this card isn't good even against control.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know if it sucks, but there's dozens of stronger cards in Legacy that aren't played in every deck.

[Fsk]

Actually what I was really interested in was having proof that your goal was to turn Legacy into a totally different format.

I dont see how that would change the face of legacy. Ban FOW, ban LED. Combo is slowed down (and you still have leyline, mindbreak trap and MM as turn 0 answers if you really need them). On the play you have access to many good 1cc counters and discards.

[Tammit67]

I dont see how that would change the face of legacy. Ban FOW, ban LED. Combo is slowed down (and you still have leyline, mindbreak trap and MM as turn 0 answers if you really need them). On the play you have access to many good 1cc counters and discards.

You don't see how making storm combo unplayable and removing the best answer to the 2 card combo decks would change the face of legacy?

[median]

yeah if that happened I would play painter in a heartbeat.

[Fsk]

You don't see how making storm combo unplayable and removing the best answer to the 2 card combo decks would change the face of legacy?

Not really.

Storm is already an underplayed deck. And it can easily kill you by turn 2/3 without LED. Without fow in 80% of the decks it would have an easier time going off. Removing LED doesnt make it unplayable it would just slow it down and force him to adapt the builds. Many ichorid players gave up the speedy LED version for a more consistant LEDless. LED is the card that allow for turn 1/2 wins in legacy.

Every 2 card combo decks play fow on their own. + those deck are slower and there is a lot of hate you can throw at them; there is a lot of great counters/discard at 1 or 2 mana you know.

[(nameless one)]

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

[DrJones]

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.Goblin Welder

[Gheizen64]

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

Show and tell i guess it's a pretty big reason.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

There is no reason. People just freak the fuck out whenever anyone suggests unbanning a card that might be good in combo decks (ZOMG). The card is inferior to both Ad Nauseam and Time Spiral.

[lorddotm]

Flames removed. -zilla


I know the history behind Memory Jar but with current Legacy pool, can anyone make an EDUCATED reasoning on why should the Jar be banned. Thanks.

Could be scary with Welder and Metalworker. By scary I mean insane.

[Tammit67]

Not really.

Storm is already an underplayed deck. And it can easily kill you by turn 2/3 without LED. Without fow in 80% of the decks it would have an easier time going off. Removing LED doesnt make it unplayable it would just slow it down and force him to adapt the builds. Many ichorid players gave up the speedy LED version for a more consistant LEDless. LED is the card that allow for turn 1/2 wins in legacy.

Every 2 card combo decks play fow on their own. + those deck are slower and there is a lot of hate you can throw at them; there is a lot of great counters/discard at 1 or 2 mana you know.

You would effectively make Infernal tutor useless outside of UB AnT, where they can actually empty their hand, but even then Ad Nausem is much worse. Even IGG takes a huge hit, so no, Storm would not be playable without LED. It really is the cornerstone for the bombs in the deck.

Without having to play FoW the 2 card combo decks can instead play misdirection for all it matters, let alone the discard, it just doesn't matter unless you have answers tailored to the matchup. There might be hate you can throw at them, but force you can throw at ALL OF THEM. I think you'd find the format turn into old extended where there was a combo du jour until it was hated out, giving rise to something else to get hated out and so on. I don't want to play that format.

[(nameless one)]

Goblin Welder


Show and tell i guess it's a pretty big reason.


Could be scary with Welder and Metalworker. By scary I mean insane.

That's what I though too, Urza pieces such as Welder and Metalworker. I didn't even think of Show and Tell. I guess that article is wrong.

It would be awesome though if they unbanned it to help my Welder MUD deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Memory Jar seems better than Ad Nauseam by dint of the fact that it lets you play Force while drawing a bunch of cards, and doesn't require the manabase/setup of Time Spiral.

Not to say that it's necessarily going to break the format, but I feel like we're already pushing the edge of what we can get away with in terms of having stupid combo decks, and I don't think the boat needs more rocking.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

You also gain consistency from the fact that you get to run four Jar but rarely want more than one or at best two Ad Nauseams. I also have to agree with IBA that we don't really need more extremely powerful combo-decks as the format stands right now. There is a ton of choice for combo-players already.

[Amon Amarth]

@Mon: I feel that way about a lot of the cards on the B/R list. I'd rather err on the side of caution rather than risk making certain strategies ridiculous. I wish they would start getting the chaff off the list 1 card at a time (perhaps 2 if they can't fit in the same deck so you can better gauge their power levels, over 9000 etc.) every announcement. Then they could get to cards that are borderline or that haven't seen the light of day in awhile, like Memory Jar.

[dahcmai]

I'll stay of the same opinion that some cards are better off left on the list not due to power reasons, but due to the Tarmogoyf syndrome. That is, if you let them enter the format, they would limit deck building quite a bit. Hermit Druid is probably the poster child of this.

Most people will agree that Hermit Druid isn't exactly hard to stop. Lightning Bolt, Swords, Crypt, Relic, Force, Spell Snare, and ten million other things can stop the old Hermit Druid Combo dead in it's tracks, but do you like the idea that you absolutely just have to build every deck with 8 answers to it. Your dead if you can't answer it first turn. It's worse than letting a Goblin Lacky hit you. At least in Lacky's case you don't auto lose on the spot if one hits you. I don't want to be forced to have a first turn answer to one single stupid combo. There will always be first turn kill decks, we really don't need to let a card that will serve no other purpose than be yet another 2nd turn kill deck back in. Argue all you like, that's it's only real use.

As much as people want to argue the point, Earthcraft is in the same boat. Not every deck can deal with a million squirrel tokens that early. Sure, enchantress would love to have that card back and it's far from broken, but it still serves to kill several decks that plain can't deal with that stupid combo. It's an excuse to limit the format and I personally like the variety we have as is. Letting it back in is like saying "Here's a combo based on enchantments, you may no longer play mono-black or mono-red ever again unless you can kill turn 3". Earthcraft isn't broken and when it went on the list a long time ago, I was actually quite surprised by it. I was also glad since the squirrel thing was really easy to do consistently turn 3 and it's annoying to never be able to play aggro without a ton of enchantment removal main due to it. People just counter with something like "but there's pithing needle". Yeah, that's like saying Ancestral Recall is fine because there's Mental Misstep. There's still a line to walk.

[Michael Keller]

So, when will we find out the announcement? Midnight?

EDIT: ...Anyone?

[overpowered]

Wish I knew... I'm holding my breath and it's 12:01 EST. Prolly around 10:30am or noon on the 20th. I can't imagine they have people waiting at the office until midnight to post the list.

Then again, I have absolutely no idea about these matters!

[whienot]

Linky (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/148a)

No changes for Legacy. Stoneforge Mystic and Jace 2.0 get sacked in standard.

Edit: "Exception: The deck list for the "War of Attrition" Event Deck will be legal in Standard if kept completely intact. That deck, which went on sale on June 10, contains two copies of Stoneforge Mystic."

[Michael Keller]

Jace and SFM get the axe in Standard. No Legacy changes.

[Arsenal]

They could've kept Jace and axed SFM, and things would've been fine; definite knee-jerk reaction. C'est la vie.

[4eak]

The discussion of today's announced changes can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21249-June-20-2011-DCI-Banned-amp-Restricted-List-Announcement).

-4eak

[MirrorMask]

HARHARHAR seriously i laughed my ass out! I was expecting it from the beginning at least for Jace and way too many didn't even see it coming and kept buying this crap like there was no tomorrow! I am so pleased that they got what they deserved for driving its price sky high. Serves them right i guess. For how long would wizards continue their mistake of printing this card in standard... hehehehe half its price in just a day ZOMG!

[Admiral_Arzar]

HARHARHAR seriously i laughed my ass out! I was expecting it from the beginning at least for Jace and way too many didn't even see it coming and kept buying this crap like there was no tomorrow! I am so pleased that they got what they deserved for driving its price sky high. Serves them right i guess. For how long would wizards continue their mistake of printing this card in standard... hehehehe half its price in just a day ZOMG!

Laughing at other people's misfortune seems like so much fun until you realize that it was extremely difficult to actually win in standard without 4 Jace and 4 Mystic in your deck. Otherwise, thank you for adding such an insightful, valuable, and intelligent post to this discussion.

[DragoFireheart]

HARHARHAR seriously i laughed my ass out! I was expecting it from the beginning at least for Jace and way too many didn't even see it coming and kept buying this crap like there was no tomorrow! I am so pleased that they got what they deserved for driving its price sky high. Serves them right i guess. For how long would wizards continue their mistake of printing this card in standard... hehehehe half its price in just a day ZOMG!

"He who laughs last, laughs best".

[dontbiteitholmes]

HARHARHAR seriously i laughed my ass out! I was expecting it from the beginning at least for Jace and way too many didn't even see it coming and kept buying this crap like there was no tomorrow! I am so pleased that they got what they deserved for driving its price sky high. Serves them right i guess. For how long would wizards continue their mistake of printing this card in standard... hehehehe half its price in just a day ZOMG!

LOL, spoken like a true noob. Hating on people for owning cards you don't, give me a break. I had no plans to sell Jaces anyways since I play more Legacy than Standard, but this pretty much ended me for Standard at least until next big rotation at next block. So I'll just play the waiting game and by the time I'm looking to liquidate he'll be back to $70+ easily as long as they don't reprint. At least now I can get those SFM's rock bottom.

[DragoFireheart]

At least now I can get those SFM's rock bottom.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=171669

50% off at SCG already. I bet one could get them for $5 a piece if they looked hard enough.

[dontbiteitholmes]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=171669

50% off at SCG already. I bet one could get them for $5 a piece if they looked hard enough.

Yeah they are around $6-7 on Ebay. Ban isn't official till the 1st then everyone will sell then everyone will realize there are thousands and thousands of unopened event decks with 2 each in them. I'm expecting bottom out at under 20 a playset.

[Koby]

LOL, spoken like a true noob. Hating on people for owning cards you don't, give me a break. I had no plans to sell Jaces anyways since I play more Legacy than Standard, but this pretty much ended me for Standard at least until next big rotation at next block. So I'll just play the waiting game and by the time I'm looking to liquidate he'll be back to $70+ easily as long as they don't reprint. At least now I can get those SFM's rock bottom.

Precisely - There's always Extended, Modern, Legacy, and Vintage. Stocking up on Jace is definitely a wise investment, especially now that he's in oversupply relative to the demand from Standard. He will reach back to epic values in no time.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Precisely - There's always Extended, Modern, Legacy, and Vintage. Stocking up on Jace is definitely a wise investment, especially now that he's in oversupply relative to the demand from Standard. He will reach back to epic values in no time.

Yeah Jace is a little under $50 now, he went from under 50 back up to high 50's now back to about 50 solid. I think if you want Jace now is the time. This is about the lowest he's probably ever going to get, once Extended season rolls around it's CawBlade time again and he's back to at least $60.

[dahcmai]

Yeah, I'll be picking up my foils finally. I want a set just for BUG if anything. Plus I want to find a nice Russian one for EDH, though he's a little crappy for EDH.


Quick question though. Has anyone actually played with Land Tax in a modern deck? I played it back when it was allowed in 1.5, but not since it got banned. I was wondering if it's really as time consuming with Tops as Wizards seems to think it would be. I can see how it would make a turn take forever, but it still seems like a joke to me to have that card on the list.

[Iron Buddha]

Is there any chance that they unban Mind Twist? I'm just asking, because it's one of my most favourite cards ever.

[dahcmai]

Most people agree there's a pretty good chance of it since it's fairly underpowered in Legacy anymore. Great card, but a little slow by today's standards.


As long as they don't let Hermit Druid off, I'm happy. Screw that card, I don't like having to add cards to decks just for stupid bad combos that can go off turn 2 easily.

[(nameless one)]

Quick question though. Has anyone actually played with Land Tax in a modern deck? I played it back when it was allowed in 1.5, but not since it got banned. I was wondering if it's really as time consuming with Tops as Wizards seems to think it would be. I can see how it would make a turn take forever, but it still seems like a joke to me to have that card on the list.

Land Tax only works with decks that are time consuming (Enchantress and other W-splashed control decks). It might work with a weenie-based deck. I myself have a semi-tuned "Legacy" Parfait deck. Playing the deck is like playing Lands. It's really slow. But not because of Land Tax but what you could do with the deck. I mean any control deck can be slow from conventional Landstill to Enchantress right?

Also, setting up a new Scroll Rack stack every turn could take a while on the hands of a Saito-like player.


Is there any chance that they unban Mind Twist? I'm just asking, because it's one of my favourite cards ever.

Maybe in the near future when Wizards fuck something up.

When Flash got banned, they unbanned Replenish and Mind Over Matter.

Mystical Tutor - Grim Monolith and Illusionary Mask

Survival of the Fittest - Time Spiral

Time will tell when these will get unbanned.

[hyperchord24]

I was going to post this in the "show and tell" thread, but I don't really want to get caught up in that discussion. I have no real experience with hivemind (with or against), but I know how powerful show and tell is. I'm not going to whine, but I'd like to comment that the last time people did complain about a deck, the main card in that deck got banned. I am sure that show and tell will be banned.

[Shawon]

I'm pretty sure that Vengevine-Survival got banned because it kept winning and Scars of Mirrodin made it even more broken with the Necrotic Ooze combo, not because people complained hard enough.

I highly doubt the same thing will happen to Show and Tell. I think people are simply just going to adapt to it, like they have already.

[Gheizen64]

I was going to post this in the "show and tell" thread, but I don't really want to get caught up in that discussion. I have no real experience with hivemind (with or against), but I know how powerful show and tell is. I'm not going to whine, but I'd like to comment that the last time people did complain about a deck, the main card in that deck got banned. I am sure that show and tell will be banned.

Survine was an absurd deck, it didn't get banned because of whine, but because of numbers.

[sroncor1]

I still don't understand why everyone thinks Show and Tell is so broken. Sure it is strong but it does not win the game when cast and can be easily answered. Removing it would only really slow hive mind decks down by a turn. There are so many ways to do degenerate things in legacy. Sure the card isn't symmetrical, but neither is LED. The difference between a two mana spell one card combo and a three mana spell two card combo is huge. SotF was incredibly strong and yet I think Wizards made he wrong choice in banning the engine. Legacy is getting to a point where it will have it's pillars much like vintage. There they keep the pillars and move around the support cards. The amount of deck design that cards like SotF and Show and Tell allow are amazing. They are much less narrow than a card like LED which is still the single strongest card in legacy.

Seth

[Admiral_Arzar]

The amount of deck design that cards like SotF and Show and Tell allow are amazing. They are much less narrow than a card like LED which is still the single strongest card in legacy.

Seth

I love how people still make veiled allusions to LED being broken even when nobody plays storm combo anymore.


I'm not going to whine, but I'd like to comment that the last time people did complain about a deck, the main card in that deck got banned. I am sure that show and tell will be banned.

I wouldn't say that was the reason Survival was banned, although it was certainly part of it. More like the reason why MYSTICAL TUTOR was banned.

[alderon666]

I still don't understand why everyone thinks Show and Tell is so broken. Sure it is strong but it does not win the game when cast and can be easily answered. Removing it would only really slow hive mind decks down by a turn. There are so many ways to do degenerate things in legacy. Sure the card isn't symmetrical, but neither is LED. The difference between a two mana spell one card combo and a three mana spell two card combo is huge. SotF was incredibly strong and yet I think Wizards made he wrong choice in banning the engine. Legacy is getting to a point where it will have it's pillars much like vintage. There they keep the pillars and move around the support cards. The amount of deck design that cards like SotF and Show and Tell allow are amazing. They are much less narrow than a card like LED which is still the single strongest card in legacy.

Seth

Removing Show and Tell slow the combo down and make it much weaker against counters. Turns out that actually losing the spell when you cast hurts instead of just losing a Show and Tell.

But the main point would be that the deck would have just one angle again. You could side in Angel's Grace and just not lose against a random 15/15 coming out of a class exercise.

[Shawon]

But the main point would be that the deck would have just one angle again. You could side in Angel's Grace and just not lose against a random 15/15 coming out of a class exercise.

You overrate Emrakul. Please tell me how any deck that can fight the Hive Mind strategy can't fight Emrakul. SnT -> Emrakul is not random. It was random in 2010, in GP Columbus. Now, it's vulnerable. Any blue deck facing Hive Mind will focus on Hive Mind and not need to care about Emrakul, because they're not going to be stupid enough to take out their Jaces for more counters.

[sroncor1]

Just bc the current meta is very hostile to combo doesn't make LED any less powerful. When I made my comparison I was talking about the raw power of the card.

I really don't understand why people think that it is terrible having a combo deck with two paths to victory. Do people complain when control decks win with goyf or Jace. There really are a lot of ways to handle the hive mind decks. It just takes time for people to adapt. Banning a card like Show and Tell would be short sighted to say the least. I still miss SotF and I enjoy a format where deck designs are wide open. I vaguely remember people calling for the banning of Lackey some years back. Just bc a card is strong doesn't mean it needs to be banned. And you do realize if the drop an Emrakul you get a chance to untapped and respond. Ask anyone who plays Doomsday list how much it sucks passing the turn after resolving your Doomsday.

Seth

[Hof]

Hive Mind is a fair and fun strategy, but even before that deck showed up Show and Tell was a broken enabler that just about any deck packing 6+ manacost spells must use. Any deck with blue can pack 4 Show and Tell and 3 of the latest, biggest spaghetti monster in the sideboard as a backup plan.

I admit that I find Show and Tell strategies with FoW backup difficult to defend against, and somewhat unfun. I know it can be interpreted as whining, but that's just my opinion. Show and Tell is like the Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker of Vintage some years ago - a three mana sorcery that must be answered.

[Greenpoe]

Playing against TES or ANT is a lot more fun than S&T->you lose. At least with real combo, you can choose your favorite hate and it's an actual battle, because cards you'd be playing anyway have relevance, like needle effects, artifact destruction, Null Rod, lifelink, Moat/Deed (vs. ETW), etc. It doesn't need a ban, just new cards to make the fight manageable. Enlightened Tutor into Sundial helps. Or just unban Mystical Tutor, since Mental Misstep is running around.

[joemauer]

"Blue Control Player"- I wish they would just ban Show and Tell as well as LED so can finally control everything with Mental Missteps and Spell Snares. Maybe if they printed some more and better free counterspells. Or at the very least Errata that Show and Tell so I can play my jaces for free. Come on wizards save control already and kill combo. Boo hoo hoo.......

[alderon666]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we going to have another banlist update announcement on 20/09/2011, right?

If so, what are your thoughts on banning of Mental Misstep? I see a lot of hate talk about it in various topics, and I myself would love to see it banned.

You guys think that the banning of it in Modern could be a sign? Or that was just something they did to give Modern a identity(read: make aggro decks good)?

[LOurs]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we going to have another banlist update announcement on 20/09/2011, right?

If so, what are your thoughts on banning of Mental Misstep? I see a lot of hate talk about it in various topics, and I myself would love to see it banned.

You guys think that the banning of it in Modern could be a sign? Or that was just something they did to give Modern a identity(read: make aggro decks good)?

The banning of misstep was not a sign, it was only a mistake. If they did it to "give modern an identity (read:make aggro decks good)", they just completly failed to. Modern is a pure combo format at the moment, aggro decks are far away and control simply not there. It is not uninteresting, but much less than Legacy meta thank to some staples like FoW, MM or Wasteland.
I really hope they will not ban anything, the only card I see borderline is brainstorm, but I really hope it will stay in the format at the moment.

[dahcmai]

I kind of doubt they will change much of anything.

Personally, I don't think there's much wrong with Show and Tell. It's cheesy yeah, but our area is pretty quick to change things up if a deck starts becoming dominant and Show and Tell never even broke top 8 very often. I guess I can't see all the hooplah over it.

Misstep is far from busted, though it was quite format warping. Unfortunately for the people who want it gone, it warped the format in a way Wizards likes. It pushed storm decks down a little further. Cry all you like, but when any card makes people play Storm less, it makes Wizards happy.

The funny thing is if you look at all the tournaments going around from Legacy dailys SCG 5k's, and just what I see at other countries, Stoneblade, No RUG, Maverick, and Aggro Loam seem to be the far and away most popular choices and winners. More argument to let things stay the way they are.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I think they could do something, The last SCG top 8 had 28 Mental Missteps 28 Force of Wills and 28 Brainstorms out of a possible 32. I don't mind blue being good, as long as there are other options to beat it. It may be too soon, but I think something could change to make the format more diverse. I would like to see cards such as mind twist and goblin recruiter off the ban list.

[Tacosnape]

Nothing will change. Not until Snapcaster Mage.

I'm predicting that it'll actually be Brainstorm that finally gets the axe. It needs to be. This will hurt the digging abilities of blue-based combo and control, and give people an incentive to play cards like Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress again, and the decks that can use them. This should make decks like Deadguy Ale, Rock, and Hexmage Depths able to be more competitive against Blue.Format, and add another viable set of strategies other than the "Do everything a deck needs to do at instant speed with islands" setup that exists now.

I personally think Misstep's solid for the format. I like the fact that any deck can have some way of interacting now. Legacy's way more interactive and strategic than it used to be now. And it's forcing new decks to evolve rapidly. There's a Black/Green deck going around here right now where every single card in it has a CMC of 2 or 0, and it's proving to have a stupid amount of potential.

[Namida]

What kind of deck is this BG deck you spoke of?

[Amon Amarth]

I could easily see Brainstorm getting the axe on power level alone. Most of the time it's Ancestral Recall that protects your bombs from discard.

But man I don't really want to lose Brainstorm and I'm pretty sure many Legacy players feel the same way. I wonder what the response would be like- definitely a bitter pill.

[Solar Ice]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we going to have another banlist update announcement on 20/09/2011, right?

If so, what are your thoughts on banning of Mental Misstep? I see a lot of hate talk about it in various topics, and I myself would love to see it banned.

You guys think that the banning of it in Modern could be a sign? Or that was just something they did to give Modern a identity(read: make aggro decks good)?

I would love to see that damnable card leave this format once and for all. I hated it when it was first spoiled, hate playing with it and hate playing against it. That card has single-handedly wiped out many fun and diverse decks off the face of the format. I can't recall ever feeling that a card needed to go as much as I do about Misstep (maybe Flash was the exception).

How many of you remember the awesome format this was, post-Survival / Pre-MM? Heck, even with Survival dominating it was really fun and quite a few decks were viable. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I feel that the format has become stale and - I hate to say it - boring since this card was unleashed. Nothing would make me happier than a return to the Pre-MM Legacy.



I'm predicting that it'll actually be Brainstorm that finally gets the axe. It needs to be.

No, it doesn't. The meta coped quite well with it since Legacy was created, not to mention that its a very fun (but yes, powerful) card to play with. Some people like their games to be more about skill than luck of the draw. Getting rid of one of the most skill intensive cards ever printed would be horrible for Legacy. One can just look at the state of Vintage since Brainstorm got the chop for evidence of what may happen to Legacy.

Just curious, first it was Time Spiral that needed to be axed when it won a couple of tourneys, then Show and Tell and now it's Brainstorm, right? I know you don't like combo, but damn...

[Gheizen64]

I would love to see that damnable card leave this format once and for all. I hated it when it was first spoiled, hate playing with it and hate playing against it. That card has single-handedly wiped out many fun and diverse decks off the face of the format. I can't recall ever feeling that a card needed to go as much as I do about Misstep (maybe Flash was the exception).

How many of you remember the awesome format this was, post-Survival / Pre-MM? Heck, even with Survival dominating it was really fun and quite a few decks were viable. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I feel that the format has become stale and - I hate to say it - boring since this card was unleashed. Nothing would make me happier than a return to the Pre-MM Legacy.



No, it doesn't. The meta coped quite well with it since Legacy was created, not to mention that its a very fun (but yes, powerful) card to play with. Some people like their games to be more about skill than luck of the draw. Getting rid of one of the most skill intensive cards ever printed would be horrible for Legacy. One can just look at the state of Vintage since Brainstorm got the chop for evidence of what may happen to Legacy.

Just curious, first it was Time Spiral that needed to be axed when it won a couple of tourneys, then Show and Tell and now it's Brainstorm, right? I know you don't like combo, but damn...

People keep repeating that brainstorm remove the random aspect and can't banned for this reason, but this is not factually true. Blue has a shitload of cantrips it can play to smooth his draw and minimize the random component of the game, it's just that Brainstorm is head and shoulder above all the rest. And i honestly think it being an instant make it actually less skill intensive than the sorcery alternatives for the sole reason you can't always play it at the best times but you have to make a lot more decisions just casting it.

It's as if red mages complained for an hypotetical ban of a Superbolt R: instant deal 4 damage saying that it would remove the ability of red of having reach and control creatures. That's not actually the case, the issue isn't what the card do, is how cheap it is compared to what it do (especially with fetches).

[Michael Keller]

Nothing will change. Not until Snapcaster Mage.
I personally think Misstep's solid for the format. I like the fact that any deck can have some way of interacting now. Legacy's way more interactive and strategic than it used to be now. And it's forcing new decks to evolve rapidly. There's a Black/Green deck going around here right now where every single card in it has a CMC of 2 or 0, and it's proving to have a stupid amount of potential.

I'm quite certain they've already calculated the ridiculous interaction between Misstep and Snapcaster Mage. Mental Misstep is a card that will never rid itself in any competitive deck running Blue - or any other color for that matter - as long as there are powerful one-cost spells running around this format, which there just happen to be a large assortment of. The card is seeing an overabundance of play in so many different archetypes that it is forcing players to play with it - not around it - just to cancel opposing Missteps out with each other.

A single card should never force a large percentage of decks in a format such as Legacy to warp or alter their base-strategies because they fear playing a card at CMC of one will be countered. When that happens, the strategic value of the game increases in the sense that players opting not to run Misstep can simply forgo spells at one mana. This could also significantly decrease brewing strategies and exploratory endeavors due in large part to the fact that you need to base your new strategy on whether or not it has the sustainability of withstanding a format dictated by Mental Misstep.

So in theory: Why should any format, especially one as (potentially) fast as Legacy, be forced to shift to a "converted mana cost of anything but one" format because of one card playable in any deck in existence? All Snapcaster Mage is going to do is reinforce the fact that Misstep will be even more ridiculous than it is right now, and it will unquestionably force players to play Misstep for the simple reason it stops their "Flashback-able" spells at CMC of one (i.e. Brainstorm, Swords, etc.). Mage is going to give all of those cards extreme value, but the fact remains Misstep is still an impedance to innovation and will only get worse as time goes on (the format, not the card - which can only get better).

The "Flash" ability is what really put Mage over the top. The number of plays sustained by this one card is going to be ridiculous.

[Zilla]

It's as if red mages complained for an hypotetical ban of a Superbolt R: instant deal 4 damage saying that it would remove the ability of red of having reach and control creatures.
Doesn't seem like an apt analogy. Brainstorm is one of the most skill intensive cards in the format, and as such is arguably good for the game. Superbolt would be the polar opposite.

[Gheizen64]

Doesn't seem like an apt analogy. Brainstorm is one of the most skill intensive cards in the format, and as such is arguably good for the game. Superbolt would be the polar opposite.

Replace with SuperTop (a sensei's divining top that cost look the first four card instead of 3) then. Has the same perks as Brainstorm, point still stand. Or hell, go for a just better brainstorm. Ancestral. Where do you draw the line?

People saying that Brainstorm is too strong (me included, while i'm actually on the fence about a possible ban), simply argue that Brainstorm power level is too high and that at the same time it make discard worse. This can't be proven as absolutely true or false, since "too strong" is too vague of an affermation, but at least can be debated since everyone agree that Brainstorm is a very good card. From "very good", to "too good" there's some space, but not an ocean.

On the other hand, saying that Brainstorm is somewhat the holy keeper of format balance by removing randomization and increasing the skill ceiling is just false. There are a lot of alternative cantrips to Brainstorm and some of them even are more skill intensive than it (i'd argue that the old next best Brainstorm, Portent, is possibly the most skill intensive and the richest in the decision tree U cantrip ever).

A similar if not the same argument against banning has been done to death for Force, but there are good reasons in FoW's case that make those arguments stand that are not there for Brainstorm. First, there isn't a direct equivalent T0-T1 counter. Foil is horrible and is like comparing Hymn to Mind Rot. Daze and MM are good, but aren't catch-alls. Pact is usable only in combo. Last, but most important, Force is a reactive cards, and as such, it's inherently better against the broken and worse against the fair. That make it the quintessential definition of a "good" card for the format. Brainstorm, on the other hand, is better with the broken and worse in linear "fairer" decks like Merfolk, where drawing a card isn't that much worse than getting a Brainstorm effect.

That said, how WotC can still make the "promote unfun play" argument for Tax when MM exist? How can they say Twist break control mirrors when JTMS exist?
The B/R list management has been so uncomprensible lately i don't expect anything logical anymore.

[Rizso]

I really doubt anything will be banned atm. There isnt any card that is really at the level Survival of the Fittest, Mystical Tutor was. Only cards that are remotly close imo are Show and Tell and Natural Order but even does I dont think is even close to be banned.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would really love to see Mind Twist come off, it's a powerful but completely fair card. It would see only marginal play but would be a great tool to have around.

Land Tax obv., Black Vise, Goblin Recruiter should also come off.

Also I agree with Gheizen that I generally consider it harder to play Preordain or Ponder correctly than Brainstorm. I mean much of the time Brainstorm is dumb easy to play, get rid of two lands and drop a fetch. Not really a mind-breaker there. Sure, sometimes it's really tough figuring out what to put back, and sometimes it's really tough knowing whether to use Bolt to take out a creature or save it to dome someone, but most of the time Brainstorm is easier than most other card filtering since you can hang onto and get rid of crap in your hand.

I also wouldn't mind them banning Natural Order and Show and Tell. Reanimator without the hoops and vulnerability to sideboard hate isn't a strategy that I think adds much of value to the game. I'm not saying that they should ban either card- it's not clear that they're too powerful- I am just saying that I would give 1-0.999... fucks if they did.

[wcm8]

Anybody think Yawgmoth's Bargain could come off?

[swoop]

You're all going bonkers

[keys]

Anybody think Yawgmoth's Bargain could come off?

No.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Anybody think Yawgmoth's Bargain could come off?

TROLOLOLOLOL

But seriously, no. The card is like Ad Nauseum, but without restricting how you design your deck. I hear it's pretty good with Show and Tell and Academy Rector as well.

[Zilla]

Replace with SuperTop (a sensei's divining top that cost look the first four card instead of 3) then. Has the same perks as Brainstorm, point still stand. Or hell, go for a just better brainstorm. Ancestral. Where do you draw the line?
This is going to sound inane, but I draw the line at Brainstorm. It's easily the strongest card in the format for its cost, but a) it requires a great deal of skill to use optimally, and b) its power level isn't really "unfun" for either player during play.

While you might call the card objectively unfair because of its cost, it doesn't feel particularly unfair during play, as, say, Mental Misstep does, or Natural Order does, or Show and Tell does, or Stoneforge Mystic does, or Hive Mind does. (Not that I'm advocating the banning of any of these cards, mind you.)

There will always be an objectively strongest card in the format. The fact that this one is skill intensive, fun to play with, and not particularly punishing to play against, makes it a pretty good candidate in my opinion.

[(nameless one)]

Anybody think Yawgmoth's Bargain could come off?

While we're at it, why not Memory Jar?

But back to the topic, I think the reason why Land Tax and Mind Twist is banned is because of how powerful they used to be. The problem is there are a lot of cards have been printed as of late that balances these cards out. Maybe WotC will see it one day. I mean a lot of 'broken' cards have been unbanned since the Type1.5 to Legacy change.


Don't unban Replenish or Enchantress will dominate the format


Don't unban Dream Halls because we don't want to see crazy combos dominating the format


Don't unban Entomb because its essentially a tutor with no drawback in Reanimator/Dredge/any graveyard.dec


Don't unban Metalworker because mana that fast is not healthy for the format


Don't unban Grim Monolith because it will make the current combo decks a turn faster


Don't unban Time Spiral or Spring Tide will be impossible to beat

Remember these?

Though I think the reason why Land Tax is banned is because of the time involved around it. It was hinted on that article when Time Spiral was unbanned.

[kiblast]

I'm predicting that it'll actually be Brainstorm that finally gets the axe. It needs to be.

I personally think Misstep's solid for the format. I like the fact that any deck can have some way of interacting now.

In the future, nonblue players are going to finally understand that playing Misstep in their nonblue decks lets them counter Brainstorm.

Brainstorm is balanced (I'd say needed, unless you don't want Merfolk to be even more dominating), as well as Misstep. I think nothing will be banned.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I would really love to see Mind Twist come off, it's a powerful but completely fair card. It would see only marginal play but would be a great tool to have around.

Land Tax obv., Black Vise, Goblin Recruiter should also come off.

Also I agree with Gheizen that I generally consider it harder to play Preordain or Ponder correctly than Brainstorm. I mean much of the time Brainstorm is dumb easy to play, get rid of two lands and drop a fetch. Not really a mind-breaker there. Sure, sometimes it's really tough figuring out what to put back, and sometimes it's really tough knowing whether to use Bolt to take out a creature or save it to dome someone, but most of the time Brainstorm is easier than most other card filtering since you can hang onto and get rid of crap in your hand.

I also wouldn't mind them banning Natural Order and Show and Tell. Reanimator without the hoops and vulnerability to sideboard hate isn't a strategy that I think adds much of value to the game. I'm not saying that they should ban either card- it's not clear that they're too powerful- I am just saying that I would give 1-0.999... fucks if they did.

Words do not describe how much I'd love to see Black Vise off of the banned list. There's nothing I love more than giving a giant middle finger to blue-based control deck players.

[Solar Ice]

Words do not describe how much I'd love to see Black Vise off of the banned list. There's nothing I love more than giving a giant middle finger to blue-based control deck players.


They'd likely give you the middle finger right back by Mental Misstepping it :X

[wcm8]

TROLOLOLOLOL

But seriously, no. The card is like Ad Nauseum, but without restricting how you design your deck. I hear it's pretty good with Show and Tell and Academy Rector as well.

Re: Show and Tell, why not just drop Emrakul or Hive Mind (or any fat, game-winning monster such as Blightsteel Collossus) and win that turn/the next? Bringing Show and Tell into the argument seems arbitrary since that card enables tons of degenerate strategies.

Bargain costs six, and having double Dark Ritual for dropping it turn 2 is magical fantasy land (not to mention playing into a Daze, Spell Pierce, or FoW -- or even Misstep on the Rituals.) In Legacy, if you can resolve a CMC6 spell, you probably deserve to win the game.

The card is susceptible to both Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip (each activation is a discrete ability). Against aggro, the life loss can be relevant if you don't drop it early enough. Control would use the same tools to fight is as any 'regular' combo decks, and the combo mirror is typically just as draw dependent.

Enabling a new archetype doesn't seem that bad to me. I think if Show and Tell were banned, this card could possibly be safe to come off, even with 'enablers' like Enlightened Tutor, Replenish, and Academy Rector in the format.

[mordraid]

land tax was banned not because of power level, but because it stalled games and took too much time.

[kiblast]

The card is susceptible to both Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip (each activation is a discrete ability).

Just keep priority and activate multiple times in response if you see opponent with 3 mana open one of which is G. Playing Repeal MD helps with the former problem instead. You don't want that monstrosity to come off the banned list.

[Solar Ice]

Re: Show and Tell, why not just drop Emrakul or Hive Mind (or any fat, game-winning monster such as Blightsteel Collossus) and win that turn/the next? Bringing Show and Tell into the argument seems arbitrary since that card enables tons of degenerate strategies.

Bargain costs six, and having double Dark Ritual for dropping it turn 2 is magical fantasy land (not to mention playing into a Daze, Spell Pierce, or FoW -- or even Misstep on the Rituals.) In Legacy, if you can resolve a CMC6 spell, you probably deserve to win the game.

The card is susceptible to both Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip (each activation is a discrete ability). Against aggro, the life loss can be relevant if you don't drop it early enough. Control would use the same tools to fight is as any 'regular' combo decks, and the combo mirror is typically just as draw dependent.

Enabling a new archetype doesn't seem that bad to me. I think if Show and Tell were banned, this card could possibly be safe to come off, even with 'enablers' like Enlightened Tutor, Replenish, and Academy Rector in the format.

Bargain is absurdly powerful, mate. Have you ever played the BW version during Urza's Block, with Soul Feast Skittering Skirge, Rector, Claws of Gix? It was frightnening then and these days its even more insane, Misstep or not. Aside from the days past, answers like Needle are useless unless dropped preemptively and Grip is almost completely useless since you just don't pass priority after resolving Bargain and just activate it a crap load of times (EDIT: Pwnd by Kiblast), after which removing Bargain doesn't matter at all. One can also argue that its better than Necropotence, since you get to draw the cards immediately and win on the spot. I'm not sure anyone can seriously argue for the unbanning of Necropotence. Bargain is in the same boat.

[wcm8]

Alright, it's my misunderstanding regarding the passing priority issue. And I suppose with lands like Ancient Tomb and whatnot, ramping into it by turn 3 wouldn't be that difficult. At what CMC would Bargain be 'fair' enough for legacy.. 8? Never?

I've just always been of the opinion that the less cards on the banned list, the better. I guess Bargain would be too format-warping though.

[Solar Ice]

Alright, it's my misunderstanding regarding the passing priority issue. And I suppose with lands like Ancient Tomb and whatnot, ramping into it by turn 3 wouldn't be that difficult. At what CMC would Bargain be 'fair' enough for legacy.. 8? Never?

I've just always been of the opinion that the less cards on the banned list, the better. I guess Bargain would be too format-warping though.

Most likely, an effect like "Pay 1 life: Draw a Card" without another drawback is too good for the format. there will always be ways to cheat something like that into play, and not worth the risk, even if I love Combo in general.

I'd love to play with Bargain as a 4-of and Mind's Desire for that matter, but they are absurdly good. I agree that the less cards on that B/R list the better, just that some are way too good to come off. There are definitely cards that could (and should) come of that list though.

[Gheizen64]

Bargain is absurdly powerful, mate. Have you ever the BW version during Urza's Block, with Soul Feast Skittering Skirge, Rector, Claws of Gix? It was frightnening then and these days its even more insane, Misstep or not. Aside from the days past, answers like Needle are useless unless dropped preemptively and Grip is almost completely useless since you just don't pass priority after resolving Bargain and just activate it a crap load of times (EDIT: PWND by Kiblast), after which removing Bargain doesn't matter at all. One can also argue that its better than Necropotence, since you get to draw the cards immediately and win on the spot. I'm not sure anyone can seriously argue for the unbanning of Necropotence. Bargain is in the same boat.

Bargain is nothing like Necro. Getting 6 mana already win you the game (hive mind) in a super heavy blue shell with 4 FoW and 4 Pacts. I'm not sure Bargain would be that much better. AdN at 6 would be a lot worse than at 5, probably it wouldn't even get played.
That BW deck you speak about was horrible in modern's day terms. Just like the old Academy decks. There is an interesting article by Menendian about the most infamous and broken deck in Vintage's history (here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/7699_The_Banned_Plays_Again_An_Encore_For_Magic8217s_Greatest_Decks.html)). The broken Academy (4 Academy, 4 Mana Crypt, 4 Mana Vault) was found worse than all other modern decks, even worse than Trix (but better than Keeper). Trix played 4 Necro and was found worse than a deck like BBS (blue bullshit powered by 4FoF). A lot of people often forgets that back in the days, combo was nothing like today, storm effectively ended an era. Even absurd things like Necro used 2/1 Knights or the discard1: add B Skirge to win with Drain Life.

Necro is retarded especially because it can be casted on T1. Honestly i think Bargain would probably be just slightly better than current Hivemind. Hivemind doesn't care about priority either, since you actually never get it before they can cast a pact.

[Solar Ice]

Bargain is nothing like Necro. Getting 6 mana already win you the game (hive mind) in a super heavy blue shell with 4 FoW and 4 Pacts. I'm not sure Bargain would be that much better. AdN at 6 would be a lot worse than at 5, probably it wouldn't even get played.
That BW deck you speak about was horrible in modern's day terms. Just like the old Academy decks. There is an interesting article by Menendian about the most infamous and broken deck in Vintage's history (here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/7699_The_Banned_Plays_Again_An_Encore_For_Magic8217s_Greatest_Decks.html)). The broken Academy (4 Academy, 4 Mana Crypt, 4 Mana Vault) was found worse than all other modern decks, even worse than Trix (but better than Keeper). Trix played 4 Necro and was found worse than a deck like BBS (blue bullshit powered by 4FoF). A lot of people often forgets that back in the days, combo was nothing like today, storm effectively ended an era. Even absurd things like Necro used 2/1 Knights or the discard1: add B Skirge to win with Drain Life.

Necro is retarded especially because it can be casted on T1. Honestly i think Bargain would probably be just slightly better than current Hivemind. Hivemind doesn't care about priority either, since you actually never get it before they can cast a pact.


Unlike Bargain, Hive Mind requires a lot of useless chaff (8+) to be played in the form of Pacts just so that when the enchantment hits the table you could win on the spot. A dedicated bargain deck can use far better resources to protect itself and has far more consistant draws. There is no way I see Bargain as being in the same/similar class as Hive Mind.

Obviously, old era combo and todays combo are two different kettle of fish. For its time, it was very good. But a card like Bargain can only be improved with todays card pool.

[Gheizen64]

8+? Most hive Mind decks play 7 non-negation Pacts. And where Bargain give you better deck density, Hive mind give you a better mana base, it's pitchable to Force and doesn't have to race aggro since you can win easily at 1 life.
I wouldn't be so sure that either one is that better than the other.

[Sims]

8+? Most hive Mind decks play 7 non-negation Pacts. And where Bargain give you better deck density, Hive mind give you a better mana base, it's pitchable to Force and doesn't have to race aggro since you can win easily at 1 life.
I wouldn't be so sure that either one is that better than the other.

7 Non-negation pacts + 4 Pact of negation that in many cases are useless outside of the combo turn. If I force your EoT Intuition and all you have is PoN as protection, you aren't casting that Pact so you can lose on your upkeep. There are plenty of situations where Pact is a dead card because without it you either cannot win, or the trigger will flat cause you to lose.

So that's 4 hivemind plus 7 cards that are dead without it and 4 more that are situationally dead without it.

[Gheizen64]

7 Non-negation pacts + 4 Pact of negation that in many cases are useless outside of the combo turn. If I force your EoT Intuition and all you have is PoN as protection, you aren't casting that Pact so you can lose on your upkeep. There are plenty of situations where Pact is a dead card because without it you either cannot win, or the trigger will flat cause you to lose.

So that's 4 hivemind plus 7 cards that are dead without it and 4 more that are situationally dead without it.

Yeah, 7 cards that are dead without Hivemind, but Necro would have a lot of situationally dead cards too then, things like rituals and petals and Tendrils that you'd have to play to win after drawing the cards, whereas Hive mind just need 1 card.

Something like:

4 Yawgmoth's bargain
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Dark ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Grim Monolith
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Pact of Negation
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

This probably doesn't have enough free mana source to actually win after a resolved bargain. Need to test a bit.

EDIT: list is a pile. You can't consistently win this low amount of free mana, you just can't play Bargain in a similar shell as Hivemind. Bargain need a storm-like shell for it, but then is it really better than AdN? Feeling say no, testing say i haven't got enough time now.

[Lancer]

Black Vise is a crap card, I dont know what Richard Garfield was thinking when he made the card. It didnt seem to work with the original rules 40 card deck/any number of copies and it didnt seemed to work with power 9 cards. The card did showed it's real strength with the absences of Sol Ring! After that every deck (including control was using black vise). Seriously, Legacy needs Sol Ring before Black Vise is unbanned (and we know Wizards is not going to unban Sol Ring). Black Vise is a major wreck and it doesnt do any good for anybody since the game will resolve to who gets black vise into play first and wrecking their mana sources second (Ports and Wastelands will fuck the fun out of the format.)

I love Brainstorm, I dont see it being as unbalanced before and Mental Misstep seems to keep brainstorm in check.

I also love Mental Misstep, it opening the format to more decks and creativity (this is where skill becomes part of the game), it allows non blue players the ability to say: Screw off Duress, take a hike Kozilek and fuckoff Thoughtseize! It stops Swords, Lackey, Dark Ritual and Top (to name a few). Best card for the Legacy format because players are now forced to protect their first turn assults.

Cards I like to see ban ~ nothing so far.

Cards I like to see come off the ban list:

I would love to see Demonic Consultation and Land Tax.

Demonic Consultation ~ I must be the only one in the MTG world has has been screwed by Demonic Consultation more then once; I dont see it being as good as many has fear.

Land Tax ~ I feel like most players about land tax.

[Gheizen64]

Black Vise is a crap card, I dont know what Richard Garfield was thinking when he made the card. It didnt seem to work with the original rules 40 card deck/any number of copies and it didnt seemed to work with power 9 cards. The card did showed it's real strength with the absences of Sol Ring! After that every deck (including control was using black vise). Seriously, Legacy needs Sol Ring before Black Vise is unbanned (and we know Wizards is not going to unban Sol Ring). Black Vise is a major wreck and it doesnt do any good for anybody since the game will resolve to who gets black vise into play first and wrecking their mana sources second (Ports and Wastelands will fuck the fun out of the format.)

I love Brainstorm, I dont see it being as unbalanced before and Mental Misstep seems to keep brainstorm in check.

I also love Mental Misstep, it opening the format to more decks and creativity (this is where skill becomes part of the game), it allows non blue players the ability to say: Screw off Duress, take a hike Kozilek and fuckoff Thoughtseize! It stops Swords, Lackey, Dark Ritual and Top (to name a few). Best card for the Legacy format because players are now forced to protect their first turn assults.

Cards I like to see ban ~ nothing so far.

Cards I like to see come off the ban list:

I would love to see Demonic Consultation and Land Tax.

Demonic Consultation ~ I must be the only one in the MTG world has has been screwed by Demonic Consultation more then once; I dont see it being as good as many has fear.

Land Tax ~ I feel like most players about land tax.

Vise sucks donkey ass. Vise was good when Keeper was good, 4 Strip were legal, Jameydae tome was a good card and neither Force nor Mental Misstep existed. Nowadays it's a conditional lava spike. Your "play vise T1, remove opponent from game" play is unfeasible, else everyone would go for it after a T1 nacatl. Prison doesn't exist in Legacy, and Vise isn't the card prison need to be viable anyway. Prison need a reliable way to prison people T1, something that can happen in Vintage to an extent but not in Legacy, at least until Workshop is banned.

It seems to me that a lot of people speak about cards that they haven't actually tested in years and have knee-jerk preemptive reactions (see bargain). I have, and i can tell you Vise sucks donkey ass and its best application nowadays is some RW super-aggressive deck since prison isn't viable. Your comparison of Vise to Sol Ring is laughable. Have you actually tested Sol in a modern legacy deck? I can tell you one thing, it goes as a 4xof in everything that isn't dredge. All the other decks would play it and change their gameplan accordingly. Yes even Zoo.

I'll go there and say that Vise is worse than Twist, Top and Tax. And probably around the power level of Cursed Scroll and Shrine of Burning Rage.

EDIT: Demonic consultation unbanned in a format withouth 1-of? Man i've got trolled.

[Solar Ice]

I also love Mental Misstep, it opening the format to more decks and creativity (this is where skill becomes part of the game), it allows non blue players the ability to say: Screw off Duress, take a hike Kozilek and fuckoff Thoughtseize! It stops Swords, Lackey, Dark Ritual and Top (to name a few). Best card for the Legacy format because players are now forced to protect their first turn assults.



It's printed in a colour whose only real weakness is the opponents first turn play while blue is on the draw. No more need to fear that Vial, Lackey, Seize, Nacatl, Ritual, Duress, etc. Cards that are an intergral part of an opposing decks strategy have lost a ton of punch with MM, to the point of not being competitive anymore. Whereas Blue- based decks only had 4 outs to an opponents first turn play while on the draw, they now have 8. That's a significant chance to ruin/slow down to the point of not being relevant a core plan of deck such as Goblins (fast creature threats with Lackey/Vial) or Elves (Mana ramp/fast creatures) or ANT/TES (discard/cantrips/mana accel). It made these decks - and many others - very weak to the point of being uncompetitive.

I agree with you on Black Vise. Demonic Consultation won't see the light of day in Legacy, imho. If they had banned Mystical (a tutor with Card Disadvantage as well as only searching for instants/sorceries) they won't give this format one that reliably puts any 3-4 copies of a card in your deck to your hand at instant speed for 1 mana.

The quoted part of your post is a large part of the problem about Mental Misstep. And it does exactly the opposite of "opening the format to more decks and creativity". For a very good summary of what that abomination did to the formats creativity, please read Hollywood's excellent post on the previous page.

[GGoober]

Lol, if Bargain cost 8 mana, it will most definitely STILL see play competitively as long as Show and Tell is around.

Show and Telling a Bargain is always going to be better than Show and Telling a Hive Mind. The previous requires you to have a life total of 10+ to gain some value, while the latter requires you to have another specific card in your hand (and in the right situation) to gain value. For most parts, I'll still say that a 2-card combo is always going to beat a 3-card combo even if life is an issue, especially when the 2-card combo of Show+Bargain draws you into a win. But the reality is: Bargain is 6 mana, and makes it even better that you don't even need to play it in a Show and Tell shell to win lol, oh and it's ages better than Ad Nauseam.

[Gheizen64]

Lol, if Bargain cost 8 mana, it will most definitely STILL see play competitively as long as Show and Tell is around.

Show and Telling a Bargain is always going to be better than Show and Telling a Hive Mind. The previous requires you to have a life total of 10+ to gain some value, while the latter requires you to have another specific card in your hand (and in the right situation) to gain value. For most parts, I'll still say that a 2-card combo is always going to beat a 3-card combo even if life is an issue, especially when the 2-card combo of Show+Bargain draws you into a win. But the reality is: Bargain is 6 mana, and makes it even better that you don't even need to play it in a Show and Tell shell to win lol, oh and it's ages better than Ad Nauseam.

I pledge you to show me a shell where the card is as bonkers as you say good sir. As you noticed, my previous list was a pile.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There will always be an objectively strongest card in the format.

No there won't.

[Koby]

4 Show and tell
3 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Soul Spike
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Tendrils of Agony
16 lands with fetches

[Amon Amarth]

Academy Rector is a pretty good place to start.

[Rizso]

I remember when Bargain was a standard deck then you used Academy Rector and Phyrexian Tower to get fast Bargain into play. Thought in that standard you could play Yawgmoth's Will.

[menace13]

I pledge you to show me a shell where the card is as bonkers as you say good sir. As you noticed, my previous list was a pile.

I think the deck wants 8 counters and as many accels as it can get away with

4 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
6 Fetches

4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 PoNegation
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder/Intuition/Enlightened Tutor
4 Show and Tell
4 Soul Spike
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain

[sdematt]

I personally think the banned list is fine as is at the moment. But, if they HAD to ban a card otherwise the world would end or something, I think Show and Tell would be likeliest candidate. I'm not saying it should be, but if they did ban a card on September 20th and it was Show and Tell, I wouldn't be totally surprised.

-Matt

[Gheizen64]

4 Show and tell
3 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Soul Spike
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Tendrils of Agony
16 lands with fetches

This actually is a good case. Tested it a bit, seems slightly favored against Hive mind (SnT on emrakul is an autowin for Bargain) but slightly worse than it against BUG still and control variants (more reliance on 1cc, no FoW/Pact to protect SnT for resolving, a single target discard or Clique is hard on it) and aggro (no out against a G1 Gaddock, if it doesn't combo out before T3 life total get too low especially against fireblasts and the such).

I'll test a bit more, now i need sleep and thursday i've got an exam so no testing for tomorrow.


I personally think the banned list is fine as is at the moment. But, if they HAD to ban a card otherwise the world would end or something, I think Show and Tell would be likeliest candidate. I'm not saying it should be, but if they did ban a card on September 20th and it was Show and Tell, I wouldn't be totally surprised.

-Matt

I agree, SnT is exactly the kind of card WotC loves to ban. Enabler, cheat mana, "limit" permanent design (oh poor emmy, stupid SnT make you stupid lol).

But i don't think SnT will get the axe. It counter itself too effectively to ever become a prevalent force in the meta.

[Zilla]

No there won't.
Yes there will.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes there will.

No, there won't.

Most formats don't have an "objectively best card." Generally power balance is fine enough that at any given tournament the precise mix of decks being played will determine what the best card is at that tournament, but there's no "best card" in the format at large.

Brainstorm is the objectively best card in Legacy because it's far too much ahead of the next best card for the makeup of a given tournament to matter much. Even if the field is all playing Mental Misstep, Brainstorm is still great because you're playing Misstep and it helps you get rid of them later in the game when you want business.

[Honorik]

Lets hope for Mental Misstep ban. This card just ruined the format.

Legacy is a format right now where the only option it's to play blue, to play Zoo or a deck that dodge this freaking card like BW Stoneblade. This card just killed all non blue aggro strategies, except Zoo.

The card it's banned from the start in Modern with full right. A card that counter every relevant 1 CC spell almost without any drawback on turn one is something that can cause many troubles in the future, it's just make the deck building stagnant. Dow we really want such a card to exist ?

[Amon Amarth]

What I'd like to see come off this go round:

Goblin Recruiter: Because he's awesome. And it actually could happen since the deck has disappeared, more or less.

Land Tax: Like that one guy you meet that claims his "swamp and forest deck would crush you" he's wrong and so is this still being banned. Plus Parfait is super duper cool.

Black Vise: Pretty sure that SFM > Batterskull makes this pretty bad. Beyond that, this isn't 1995 and there aren't any glacially slow decks that keep a ton of cards in their hand. Pretty sure it's usually worse than Nacatl, Ape, and other Kitties. Burn would like it I'm sure! Hell, it might even enable something like Shrapnel Blast in that deck! Exciting!

Mind Twist: Slow but a great tool against some decks. Hymn is as good if not better most of the time. Makes cards like Spell Pierce, which people should already be playing more, and Misdirection viable.

Earthcraft: I'm a little iffy on this one only because I haven't played with it in forever. Would be good in Enchantress and maybe Elves. It's a fairly slow combo that's answered easily.

Something like Frantic Search may or may not be too good but we don't really need to make Blue decks any better. It can stay.

[Amon Amarth]

edit:double post

[Lancer]

It's printed in a colour whose only real weakness is the opponents first turn play while blue is on the draw. No more need to fear that Vial, Lackey, Seize, Nacatl, Ritual, Duress, etc. Cards that are an intergral part of an opposing decks strategy have lost a ton of punch with MM, to the point of not being competitive anymore. Whereas Blue- based decks only had 4 outs to an opponents first turn play while on the draw, they now have 8. That's a significant chance to ruin/slow down to the point of not being relevant a core plan of deck such as Goblins (fast creature threats with Lackey/Vial) or Elves (Mana ramp/fast creatures) or ANT/TES (discard/cantrips/mana accel). It made these decks - and many others - very weak to the point of being uncompetitive.

We see things differently.

I see Mental Misstep as the introduction of Force of Will. Lets pretend that Force of Will was never made and suddenly wizards just made Force of Will, there are going to be players upset with the idea of a free counterspell; competitive decks will suddenly become (uncompetitive) and new decks will suddenly become competitive.



I agree with you on Black Vise. Demonic Consultation won't see the light of day in Legacy, imho. If they had banned Mystical (a tutor with Card Disadvantage as well as only searching for instants/sorceries) they won't give this format one that reliably puts any 3-4 copies of a card in your deck to your hand at instant speed for 1 mana.

Like I said I must be the only player screwed by the card more then once. I dont see it becoming legal either.


The quoted part of your post is a large part of the problem about Mental Misstep. And it does exactly the opposite of "opening the format to more decks and creativity". For a very good summary of what that abomination did to the formats creativity, please read Hollywood's excellent post on the previous page.

I'll check out Hollywood's post.

@ Gheizen64... I love burn but I'll feel guilty playing Black Vise turn 1 and then Goblin Guide and then forcing the player to draw that extra land, it would really suck if I hit him with 2 Goblin Guides and force that player to draw 2 lands.

[(nameless one)]

@ Gheizen64... I love burn but I'll feel guilty playing Black Vise turn 1 and then Goblin Guide and then forcing the player to draw that extra land, it would really suck if I hit him with 2 Goblin Guides and force that player to draw 2 lands.

It might also make Browbeat playable.

[Zilla]

I love burn but I'll feel guilty playing Black Vise turn 1 and then Goblin Guide and then forcing the player to draw that extra land, it would really suck if I hit him with 2 Goblin Guides and force that player to draw 2 lands.
Heaven forbid they make red playable, right? ;p

I personally would love to see Black Vice come off the list. It's not like the format isn't 100% prepared for it with Misstep. In most decks it would be subpar, and in a few decks that specifically build synergy around it it would be strong but (probably) not busted.

[Gheizen64]

We see things differently.

I see Mental Misstep as the introduction of Force of Will. Lets pretend that Force of Will was never made and suddenly wizards just made Force of Will, there are going to be players upset with the idea of a free counterspell; competitive decks will suddenly become (uncompetitive) and new decks will suddenly become competitive.




Like I said I must be the only player screwed by the card more then once. I dont see it becoming legal either.



I'll check out Hollywood's post.

@ Gheizen64... I love burn but I'll feel guilty playing Black Vise turn 1 and then Goblin Guide and then forcing the player to draw that extra land, it would really suck if I hit him with 2 Goblin Guides and force that player to draw 2 lands.

God forbid i do one more damage to you with Goblin Guide. And then you don't get mana screwed ever again because i'm fixing your draws so there is actually no chance i kill you with vise.

Vise is similar to Lackey in the sense that it is exponentially better if you can play it T1. The point is a T1 lackey is usually a 3-4 mana boost + anti-permission +1 damage if unanswered (SGC or Ringleader), Vise is a lava spike on the play and a shock that can hit only players on the draw. People don't keep cards in hand in this format. Just no.

What's even worse is that you can play Lackey in goblin because that deck has an absurd amount of gas. It never run out of it. So running 4 late-game dead draws isn't that bad. Sligh can't afford that, and Vise is not simply bad past T1, it get USELESS T2. Useless. Not to speak T2 or later. It's a shit card. In a format with MM too? Laughable.

Want to try an hypotetical Sligh list with it to test my words? Try this.

4 Black Vise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lava Spike
2 Shrapnel Blast
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace

[Lancer]

It might also make Browbeat playable.

That would be funny, take 5 damage or I'll force you to draw 3 cards.

Zilla@ Burn is already strong.

I guess I see Black Vise as a thoughtless card.

Playing stasis, need a cheap kill... Black Vise.

Playing Countertop, need a cheap kill... Black Vise.

Stax... Black Vise

Zoo... Black Vise

White Weenie... Black Vise

Elf, Merfolk, Sligh, etc... Black Vise

Burn... (need I say)

Sorry, I dont see the card being good for Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

That would be funny, take 5 damage or I'll force you to draw 3 cards.

Zilla@ Burn is already strong.

I guess I see Black Vise as a thoughtless card.

Playing stasis, need a cheap kill... Black Vise.

Playing Countertop, need a cheap kill... Black Vise.

Stax... Black Vise

Zoo... Black Vise

White Weenie... Black Vise

Elf, Merfolk, Sligh, etc... Black Vise

Burn... (need I say)

Sorry, I dont see the card being good for Legacy.

Stasis isn't a deck and wouldn't be even with Vise

Stax isn't a deck and wouldn't be even with Vise

Countertop wouldn't play it unless maybe as a SB card for the mirror

Zoo wouldn't play it

Weenie wouldn't play it

Merfolk and Goblin wouldn't play it

Burn and sligh could play it

Beware of burn breaking the format i guess.

[(nameless one)]

I can see Black Vise in Stasis and Stax.

CounterTop? Its not like they have no option in casting their spells (though it will get countered anyways). Goyf (or ThopterSwords combo) is still the main beater in any CounterTop shell.

Zoo? You'll be dead before Black Vise is effective. Besides, what would you remove in Zoo to make Black Vise work? Lightning Bolt? Chain Lightning? A cat?

White Weenie? Like D&T? Hatebear.dec? Maverick? Maybe D&T since it conventionally slower but why here?

Other Swarm/Tribal Aggro strategies? I don't know. Maybe Slight (since its similar to Burn).

Hell, even it doesn't even fix Stax's problem which is consistency and a fast means to beat the opponent before the opponent recovers.

I don't know about Black Vise but this discussion sounds like the Entomb discussion back in summer 2009.

[Gheizen64]

I can see Black Vise in Stasis and Stax.

CounterTop? Its not like they have no option in casting their spells (though it will get countered anyways). Goyf (or ThopterSwords combo) is still the main beater in any CounterTop shell.

Zoo? You'll be dead before Black Vise is effective. Besides, what would you remove in Zoo to make Black Vise work? Lightning Bolt? Chain Lightning? A cat?

White Weenie? Like D&T? Hatebear.dec? Maverick? Maybe D&T since it conventionally slower but why here?

Other Swarm/Tribal Aggro strategies? I don't know. Maybe Slight (since its similar to Burn).

Hell, even it doesn't even fix Stax's problem which is consistency and a fast means to beat the opponent before the opponent recovers.

I don't know about Black Vise but this discussion sounds like the Entomb discussion back in summer 2009.

Except Entomb actually is a good card and created a deck that was also nerfed by bans. People knew that Reanimator was a real deck even before Entomb was unbanned. Stasis and Stax aren't real decks in Legacy. Vise isn't played in any kind of stax in Vintage. Sligh exist but isn't near Tier1, and Burn would probably not play it because it is a dead draw.