All B/R update speculation.

[Gui]

I've really tried to make MM work in Zoo and it never did what I needed it to do. There are two reasons to play it in Zoo. To stop their MM and to stop their Swords/Path. The problem is that because it is so reactive, if you don't have it in your hand at the opening, it's not very good. But it's not like you can realistically mulligan hands without MM.

FYI: Decks with MM, without Brainstorm (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2011-05-22&end_date=2011-09-18&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=Mental+Misstep&card_not%5B1%5D=Brainstorm&start=1&finish=16).

Decks with MM, without FoW (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2011-05-22&end_date=2011-09-18&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=Mental+Misstep&card_not%5B1%5D=Force+of+Will&start=1&finish=16).

If you look at the decks with MM, without FoW, this is pretty clear. The decks that require a 1 drop to stick (Goblins) or really need to protect something (Junk Depths) are the decks that are doing well with MM that aren't really blue decks. That's it. The rest are blue decks that don't need FoW because MM is just as good.

We don't even have to go that far, 5 out of 8 DTB here uses MM maindeck, and the other 3 are Maverick, Junk and Zoo, that sometimes do so as well...

It kinda sux when every deck you start looks like "4 MM + 56 cards"... =/

[keys]

The thing is, not only is it powerful, but it's also super one-dimensional. Got 2 life and your opponent casts a 1cc spell? Cast MM. Free cards with little to no drawback are just mindnumbingly stupid.

If it was a powerful effect but also required some skill to use properly, I would be less critical.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Why is it necessarily a bad thing that 14 out of the top 16 decks are packing Mental Misstep?


Format diversity is good. I'd rather not have 14 variations of the same blue shell in a top 16. Variety is the spice of life, they say.


I, for one, find Legacy to be a much more fun format when the card exists. Decks get to interact now. I like to interact. I like strategic games, not games of who can get the more busted hand / win the die roll. I'm not saying there's no place in the format for wild aggro, fast but fragile combo, slower but more reliable combo, etc, but I just don't see where Mental Misstep is that bad for things. It gives people a reason to not play those types of decks, also.


Yes, there's no place in the format for anything that isn't either:
A. Blue
B. A natural predator of "A"

Taco, while I do love you, I also understand your bias against combo, so I could see how you would enjoy a Misstep-dominated metagame. However, those of us who actually like to play one of the archetypes pushed out by Misstep (i.e. I prefer playing fast combo to any other archetype) are not enjoying it for obvious reasons. Misstep has strangled the metagame and made only a few decks actually competitive, thus removing the variety that made Legacy the best format. I'm honestly more interested in Modern nowadays, because in that format I won't bore myself playing against an endless gaunlet of U/x.dec.

[Tombstalker]

I think that what some people wont admit is that MMS brings diversity to the format, even if a huge percentage of decks utilize it in the process. MMS causes players to consider alternative options at the 1cc slot and also provides the entire format with a universally available answer to extremely power cards, including answering itself. Thats amazing. MMS is a good thing as diversity is one of the defining aspects of Legacy. Personally I consider MMS to be an integral part of the format and I applaud the existance of this card.

Likewise brainstorm is absolutely an integral part of Legacy. MMS makes brainstorm and other 1cc power staples slightly worse without doing what a ban would. Banning brainstorm is as unthinkable as banning wasteland since without these types of cards Legacy does not exist.
Banning brainstorm would be a huge mistake IMO as it would literally kill a significant amount of decks outright.

In addition banning MMS makes seriously powerful cards like aether vial, Sensei's top etc. significantly better. Merfolk utilizes MMS but does anyone think they would mourn the loss of MMS for an instant? I dont as this could well signify their return to dominance.
Overall MMS is a broadly playable answer that only DAMPENS the strength of so many cards in the format that would otherwise border on OP'd. I think a post MMS era would see a call for even more bannings in the wake of its loss.

As a TA player I feel I actually stand to benefit from the banning of MMS yet I still disagree with this discussion. Banning brainstorm otoh would absolutely CRIPPLE tempo strategies to the point of becoming unplayable. I seriously hope they leave this format alone for the time being.

RE banning MMS:
"You can't handle the truth! Son, we play in a game that has spells. And those spells have to be guarded against by mages with countermagic. Who's gonna do it? You? You, SCG? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for vial goblins and you curse the color blue. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that their death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in your deck. You need me in your deck.
We use words like instant, priority, stack...we use these words as the backbone to a color spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a player who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a deck and stand opposed. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!" -Mental Misstep

[Draener]

What they really need to do is put some decent card quality cards (Read: Efficiently Costed) in colors other than blue. Preferably something that let's you get rid of mental misstep if its dead. This would allow non blue decks to more profitably play mental mistep, allowing them to compete with blue versions and still having their out to combo. Maveric already accomplishes this by having such high card quality outside of MM that they can afford a dead draw here or there.

[Lancer]

Tombstalker you are correct, Mental Misstep does add diversity to the format... The problem is the mothership has leaked that a new card is going to be banned (not an old card) and most players are looking at Mental Misstep on the chopping block...

On the other hand Green Sun's Zenith is a new card and I would perfer the banning of GSZ over Mental Misstep.

[Gheizen64]

Format diversity is good. I'd rather not have 14 variations of the same blue shell in a top 16. Variety is the spice of life, they say.



Yes, there's no place in the format for anything that isn't either:
A. Blue
B. A natural predator of "A"

Taco, while I do love you, I also understand your bias against combo, so I could see how you would enjoy a Misstep-dominated metagame. However, those of us who actually like to play one of the archetypes pushed out by Misstep (i.e. I prefer playing fast combo to any other archetype) are not enjoying it for obvious reasons. Misstep has strangled the metagame and made only a few decks actually competitive, thus removing the variety that made Legacy the best format. I'm honestly more interested in Modern nowadays, because in that format I won't bore myself playing against an endless gaunlet of U/x.dec.

It's ironic that you call out Taco for being anti-combo, but whatever.

MM isn't played in Zoo only if Zoo don't play Brainstorm. Zoo with Brainstorm and Misstep is insane actually since it can play Misstep and the card that basically remove the only drawback of misstep (bad topdeck, bad against some decks? shuffle in). Maverick also do this to an extent by having basically only bombs, allowing it to draw dead once or twice.

I'll go there and say banning misstep won't help the diversity of the format at all. Control will start play pierce instead and combo will remain marginalized, Storm could see some more play but Hivemind will downright die. Aggro won't have the ability to play some anti-combo in main deck and will se its combo matchup get worse again to the point it will feel stupid. In the end it will all become more of a coinflip since you'll decrease ways for decks to interact. Goblin may see some play back again, but i suspect the fact that people actually play bolt and SFM+NO as a win conditions nowadays will keep it out of the metagame.

[Gui]

I think that what some people wont admit is that MMS brings diversity to the format
I think I'll stop reading in this point

Otoh, some people fail to understand why some cards are more powerful than other, and how most of the arguments used in favor of not banning a card can also be used, for example, to unrestricting Yawgmoth Will in vintage, or unbanning Black Lotus in Legacy.

Really, legacy is not the format in which we start every deck with "add all the power X cards we have, continue from there".

[Gheizen64]

I think I'll stop reading in this point

Otoh, some people fail to understand why some cards are more powerful than other, and how most of the arguments used in favor of not banning a card can also be used, for example, to unrestricting Yawgmoth Will in vintage, or unbanning Black Lotus in Legacy.

Really, legacy is not the format in which we start every deck with "add all the power X cards we have, continue from there".

The fact that most nonblue decks don't play misstep should give you an hint as why MM is overplayed.

All this calling on MM and how it is the monster that constrict the format when it's a colorless card that only blue play to me is confusing at best.

[majikal]

The problem is the mothership has leaked that a new card is going to be banned
Better have a source to back that claim up, son. Where have they said that anything at all will be banned?

[CorpT]

More data:

Decks playing at least 1% of the color from SCG database:

01-02-11 - 05-15-11

White: 128
Green: 145
Red: 88
Blue: 182
Black: 115

White: 50%
Green: 57%
Red: 34%
Blue: 71%
Black: 45%

05-22-11 - Present

White: 119
Green: 124
Red: 92
Blue: 187
Black: 109

White: 51%
Green: 53%
Red: 39%
Blue: 80%
Black: 46%

[Tombstalker]

I think I'll stop reading in this point
Lolz then you missed a damn good paraphrase at the end.


Really, legacy is not the format in which we start every deck with "add all the power X cards we have, continue from there".
Actually it really is. Looking at TC decks, it seems thats the entire point. Lets not just evaluate blue cards though, how about Aether Vial or Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant or Swords to Plowshares or Life from the Loam or Lightning Bolt and so on and so forth. Its exactly the reason. Pick your colors, start with the best cards of those colors. Whats wrong with that?

Edit: CorpT- actually thats not as bad as I thought it would be honestly although I know those numbers will ebb and flow slightly. If anything it shows that Red needs some serious love.

[Lancer]

Better have a source to back that claim up, son. Where have they said that anything at all will be banned?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7295458

Forsythe:

... it's just way worse than we thought for that format, and I imagine we're gonna talk about banning it when the next thing (ban update) comes around...

[CorpT]

Edit: CorpT- actually thats not as bad as I thought it would be honestly although I know those numbers will ebb and flow slightly. If anything it shows that Red needs some serious love.

What's interesting is that it doesn't look like Blue has replaced colors in decks. It's just been added to everything. Frankly, 80% is pretty high for a color to be represented.
To put it in perspective, Artifacts were ran in 156 decks in the same period Blue was run in 187 decks. That should mean something.

[Draener]

Basically, most decks that could added mental misstep, did? Interrrrresting. Here's a question... if a ton of decks only played blue for 8 cards ( brainstorm and misstep ) would that be considered broken by most of you?

[CorpT]

More data. Regarding ebbs and flows. These were long sample sizes. The 2009 data is very small, so big grains of salt there.

By year: 2009 2010 2011
White: 45% 56% 50%
Green: 72% 62% 55%
Red: 55% 36% 37%
Blue: 62% 67% 75%
Black: 39% 43% 46%

2011:
White: 50%
Green: 55%
Red: 37%
Blue: 75%
Black: 46%

2010:
White: 56%
Green: 62%
Red: 36%
Blue: 67%
Black: 43%

2009:
White: 45%
Green: 72%
Red: 55%
Blue: 62%
Black: 39%

2011:
White: 247
Green: 269
Red: 180
Blue: 369
Black: 224
Total: 491

2010:
White: 166
Green: 184
Red: 105
Blue: 197
Black: 126

2009:
White: 44
Green: 70
Red: 53
Blue: 60
Black: 38
Total: 97

[ThoSha]

The funny thing about it is, that everyone only jumps on the misstep hatetrain instead of thinking for themselves what the latest block brought for goodies in their colors. And even if its not in their colors, many insane things came out of it.
Merfolk for me is the dumbest deck i've ever seen in magic history, and now it got a 1cmc removal that can be even paid with a mutavault. Nobody cries about how nasty that is. Or when we look to white, Apostles Blessing is pretty good either.
The problem with the legacy community is, that it is narrow minded.
Someone says a card is busted, everyone repeats that opinion without thinking at all. Thats why blue in general is so hyped, thats why Force of will was hyped and now the
same happens to MM.

If Mental Misstep gets banned, i will be the last one to complain, but this whole drama i read in here over and over is making me sick.

[Gheizen64]

Was Goblin that much played during 2009? How come those numbers for red are so high compared to 2010? I've got a bit of a sketchy memory here.
Green dropping in 2011 is probably because of the ability for control deck to go for SFM as a cheap win condition instead of going bant like everyone did before.

Also seems like blue is just increasing regularly, for many a sign that the format is reaching maturity.

[Richard Cheese]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7295458

Forsythe:

... it's just way worse than we thought for that format, and I imagine we're gonna talk about banning it when the next thing (ban update) comes around...

Well I'll be damned. I really didn't think it was that bad, just kinda brainless.



Also seems like blue is just increasing regularly, for many a sign that the format is reaching maturity.

I take issue with this train of thought though. If the idea of a format reaching maturity is either:

A. Everyone starts every decklist with the same X cards, then adds one of a handful of win conditions (a.k.a. Vintage)
and/or
B. Everyone gravitates to one of 2-3 well-known archetypes that dominate the field (a.k.a. Standard)

Then I don't want the format to mature. The whole thing that's great about Legacy compared to other formats is that you can go to a 7-round event and face off against 7 different decks. It makes sideboarding and deckbuilding way more interesting, and for me is really the only thing keeping the game fun. I guess there are plenty of people that play to win and not for fun, but to me that's what Standard is for. Legacy should stay the unruly teenager of formats.

[Lancer]

The funny thing about it is, that everyone only jumps on the misstep hatetrain instead of thinking for themselves what the latest block brought for goodies in their colors. And even if its not in their colors, many insane things came out of it.
Merfolk for me is the dumbest deck i've ever seen in magic history, and now it got a 1cmc removal that can be even paid with a mutavault. Nobody cries about how nasty that is. Or when we look to white, Apostles Blessing is pretty good either.
The problem with the legacy community is, that it is narrow minded.
Someone says a card is busted, everyone repeats that opinion without thinking at all. Thats why blue in general is so hyped, thats why Force of will was hyped and now the
same happens to MM.

If Mental Misstep gets banned, i will be the last one to complain, but this whole drama i read in here over and over is making me sick.

The truth is nobody likes their first spell hit by a counterspell and they cry about it and refuse to adopt. (Not everybody but a very good number of players)

[majikal]

Well here's hoping they talk about it and leave it alone. I hate having to play FoW in aggro-control, and Misstep lets me get away with that. Funny though. This will be the first counterspell that has ever been banned in an eternal format (Modern doesn't count) apart from Mana Drain, and that just seems wrong.

[CorpT]

The problem with the legacy community is, that it is narrow minded.
Someone says a card is busted, everyone repeats that opinion without thinking at all. Thats why blue in general is so hyped, thats why Force of will was hyped and now the
same happens to MM.

It's not "narrow minded" to want to win. If I look at these numbers, it is clear Blue playing decks have higher penetration to the Top 16 than decks without Blue. Why should I not play a deck with Blue? Maybe that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but does it matter?

[CorpT]

Want to see something scary?

White : 523 57%
Green : 202 22%
Red: 363 40%
Blue: 634 69%
Black: 198 22%
916
That's similar data for Standard 04-01-11 - 07-01-11 aka Jace/SFM Standard.

And post-ban:

White 211 45%
Green 115 24%
Red 198 42%
Blue 293 62%
Black 107 23%
474

[majikal]

Somebody needs to be fired if they keep fucking up and having to ban things, IMO. I'd start with Tom Lapille.

[(nameless one)]

Somebody needs to be fired if they keep fucking up and having to ban things, IMO. I'd start with Tom Lapille.

Why? I would love to see more Great Sable Stags

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Well I'll be damned. I really didn't think it was that bad, just kinda brainless.



I take issue with this train of thought though. If the idea of a format reaching maturity is either:

A. Everyone starts every decklist with the same X cards, then adds one of a handful of win conditions (a.k.a. Vintage)
and/or
B. Everyone gravitates to one of 2-3 well-known archetypes that dominate the field (a.k.a. Standard)

Then I don't want the format to mature. The whole thing that's great about Legacy compared to other formats is that you can go to a 7-round event and face off against 7 different decks. It makes sideboarding and deckbuilding way more interesting, and for me is really the only thing keeping the game fun. I guess there are plenty of people that play to win and not for fun, but to me that's what Standard is for. Legacy should stay the unruly teenager of formats.

-Metalworker Mud
-Aggro Mud
-Stax
-Dredge
-Madness
-Gush Storm
-Bob Control
-Bob/Gush Control
-Gush/Cobra Control
-GW Hatebears
-GWU Fish
-Aether Vial Control aka Wizards
-Minus 6
-Turbo Tezz
-Oath


I'll admit there are is a lot of overlap in vintage, but it is far from what you stated in "A". Currently, it is a very diverse field at the moment.

[Rune]

The truth is nobody likes their first spell hit by a counterspell and they cry about it and refuse to adopt.

I see this line of thought all the time, and so it's incredibly annoying to be subjected to this child logic. Here's the deal: If someone complains about a card, it does NOT necessarily mean he/she is unable to beat the card or the decks it's used in.

Since you label me as a cry baby who can't beat MM, I'll have to carefully explain where my criticism of MM is coming from. I have mostly played various blue aggro-control in Legacy over the years and generally believe this to be the best archetype, although I have changed deck when there was an obvious best deck (ANT, Survival, Spiral Tide, etc). I win consistently and have (had?) a high rating. Even if Misstep boosts the decks I like the most, I still hated it from the moment I saw it spoiled. I won't repeat myself as to why I hate it, because that's getting too tiring. The reason I want it gone is for the health of the format's sake, not because I keep running Lackey into it...

Anyway, I kind of regret selling 80% of my Legacy staples now that we know MM is likely to be banned. Not in a million years would I have thought they would make the correct decision. I was pretty sure the format would only keep degenerating into more and more blue mirror matches until everyone got too sick and tired of it and SCG just switched its sunday format to Modern, but now it looks like Legacy isn't going down in flames after all.

[Koby]

-Metalworker Mud Shop Combo
-Shop Aggro Mud
-Stax Shop
-Bazaar Dredge
-Bazaar Madness
-Gush Storm
-Bob Control Gush
-Bob/Gush Control
-Gush/Cobra Control
-GW Hatebears Fish
-GWU Fish Fish
-Aether Vial Control aka Wizards Fish
-Minus 6 Dragon
-Turbo Tezz Drain
-Oath


Fixed that for you. There's only 4 archetypes in Vintage*. The win condition is a formality. Everything else is about 40-50 cards overlap with one of the existing four.

* - Blue, Bazaar, Workshop, Oath

[Gheizen64]

I see this line of thought all the time, and so it's incredibly annoying to be subjected to this child logic. Here's the deal: If someone complains about a card, it does NOT necessarily mean he/she is unable to beat the card or the decks it's used in.

Since you label me as a cry baby who can't beat MM, I'll have to carefully explain where my criticism of MM is coming from. I have mostly played various blue aggro-control in Legacy over the years and generally believe this to be the best archetype, although I have changed deck when there was an obvious best deck (ANT, Survival, Spiral Tide, etc). I win consistently and have (had?) a high rating. Even if Misstep boosts the decks I like the most, I still hated it from the moment I saw it spoiled. I won't repeat myself as to why I hate it, because that's getting too tiring. The reason I want it gone is for the health of the format's sake, not because I keep running Lackey into it...

Anyway, I kind of regret selling 80% of my Legacy staples now that we know MM is likely to be banned. Not in a million years would I have thought they would make the correct decision. I was pretty sure the format would only keep degenerating into more and more blue mirror matches until everyone got too sick and tired of it and SCG just switched its sunday format to Modern, but now it looks like Legacy isn't going down in flames after all.

And why blue would be nerfed by the banning of what basically is a colorless card? Seriously. If anything this should make people reflect on what are the real culprit for blue power in this format. MM ain't.

[Rizso]

Want to see something scary?

White : 523 57%
Green : 202 22%
Red: 363 40%
Blue: 634 69%
Black: 198 22%
916
That's similar data for Standard 04-01-11 - 07-01-11 aka Jace/SFM Standard.

And post-ban:

White 211 45%
Green 115 24%
Red 198 42%
Blue 293 62%
Black 107 23%
474

3 cards for that does that. Squadron hawk, Preordain and Sword of Feast and Famine. Even after the ban Cawblade is still one of the best decks in the format. Outside of Ramp green is quite weak, Black got vampires and UB control, Red got combo and aggro. All red combos are ofc with Preordains. Red aggro have a huge up hill battle against an Uncommon card that pretty much turns the match alone in Timely Reinforcement. As that wasnt enought The formats best removal can be played in every deck.
Hi Dismember. If you arent a Titan or more insane Consecrated Sphinx you are out of luck.

Also its quite easy to splash blue into decks in standard with preordains, Awesome duals (that can be monsters to boot) and mana fix.
Almost forgot to mention all the clones in standard that is evolving arround winning 6 dropp titans, Phyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image are just insane creatures when they can clone 6/6 creatures with CIP effects or gaming winning effects like draw 2 cards everytime your opponent draws a card!


Edit: CorpT- actually thats not as bad as I thought it would be honestly although I know those numbers will ebb and flow slightly. If anything it shows that Red needs some serious love.

Dont forget at that peroid alot more mono red decks where played in form of Goblins, dragonstompy, and charbelcher. Decks we dont really see that often anymore at least not the 2 later ones. Red was at 55% before in 2009. Red today is mostly jsut for burn, blasts, grudge and lavamancer, So not really strange red is falling down.

[DrJones]

Corpt has made a wonderful effort gathering the raw data, but I think people in this forum are unable to interpret raw data, so I've parsed these data through a normal distribution so that it becomes apparent by exactly how much the blue decks are better than the rest.

Online tools used:
http://easycalculation.com/statistics/standard-deviation.php
http://stattrek.com/tables/normal.aspx

2011: 50,55,37,75,46
2010: 56,62,36,67,43
2009: 45,72,55,62,39
Caw: pre: 57,22,40,69,22 post: 45,24,42,62,23

2011: Mean - 0.52
Standard deviation: 0.1415
Values between (0.3845 , 0.6675) are within standard.
Blue decks (z=0.75) are better than 94.32% of the field.
Red decks (z=0.37) are better than 13.513% of the field.

2010: Mean - 0.528
Standard deviation: 0.1298
Values between (0.3982 , 0.6578) are within standard.
Blue decks (z=0.67) are better than 86.30% of the field.
Red decks (z=0.36) are better than 9.78% of the field.

2009: Mean - 0.546
Standard deviation: 0.1316
Values between (0.4144 , 0.6776) are within standard.
Green decks (z=0.72) are better than 90.69% of the field.
Blue decks (z=0.62) are better than 71.30% of the field.
Black decks (z=0.36) are better than 7.87% of the field.

Cawblade std: Mean - 0.42
Standard deviation: 0.2096
Values between (0.2104 , 0.6296) are within standard.
Blue decks (z=0.69) are better than 90.11% of the field.
Black decks (z=0.22) are better than 16.99% of the field.

Post-Cawblade std: Mean - 0.392
Standard deviation: 0.1624
Values between (0.230 , 0.554) are within standard.
Blue decks (z=0.62) are better than 91.98% of the field.
Black decks (z=0.23) are better than 15.93% of the field.

In sum, the standard bannings didn't fix anything as blue puts even better results than before the bannings, and Legacy is right now MUCH WORSE than standard, with blue decks being 94.32% better than nonblue decks.

[honestabe]

hehe, if they ever want Legacy to die a terrible bloody death, banning Brainstorm would be a good way to do it. Just take a look at vintage after they restricted it.

[Rizso]

You kinda have to look how standard looks atm. Any deck can play the best removal in the format. Is there really a reason to play an other color when blue offers so much solutions, best multicolored manlands, card filters and great finisher and totally insane creature like Consecrated Sphinx? :P

On that 94.32% in legacy does that count in when noneblue decks are running mental missteps?

[DrJones]

You kinda have to look how start looks atm. Any deck can play the best removal in the format. Is there really a reason to play an other color when blue offers so much solutions, best multicolored manlands, card filters and great finisher and totally insane creature like Consecrated Sphinx? :P

On that 94.32% in legacy does that count in when noneblue decks are running mental missteps?It counts all the decks that packed blue in 2011, which includes 6 months of pre-misstep era and three months of blue dominated legacy with a few nonblue decks splashing it.
I can't access to the tools Corpt has because I'm not a Starcity premium member, but anybody with a membership can gather the tournament relevant data for a more precise evaluation, then pass it through the online tools I posted and get the percentages.

EDIT: But I can access to CorpT's data (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation.&p=585740&viewfull=1#post585740) about the post-survival pre-misstep meta vs the post-misstep meta:

2011 pre-misstep 50,57,34,71,45
2011 post-misstep 51,53,39,80,46

2011 post-survival pre-misstep: Mean - 0.514
Standard deviation: 0.1379
Values between (0.3761 , 0.6519) are within standard.
Blue decks (z=0.71) are better than 92.24% of the field.
Red decks (z=0.34) are better than 10.35% of the field.

2011 post-misstep: Mean - 0.538
Standard deviation: 0.1561
Values between (0.3819 , 0.6941) are within standard.
Blue decks (z=0.80) are better than 95.44% of the field.
Red decks (z=0.39) are better than 17.15% of the field.

In conclusion, blue was already broken in the post-survival meta, and it just got crazily broken after mental misstep (more than twice the standard deviation, woah!).
But mental misstep made red better, but I don't know if that's because "red decks" includes "red-blue decks" beating "nonred,nonblue decks" because they don't pack misstep.

[Julian23]

I see little value to be gained from that kind of analysis. It includes any deck that plays blue? Throwing decks as vastly different as Landstill, Merfolk and Hive Mind into one category and just calling them "blue decks" isn't the way, I'm looking at the format. Seeing as green is super popular as well, I guess it might put up large numbers as well. It's just feels real polemic to me, arguing that something is "better" than something else. I assume this only takes "matchup data" into account, which just doesn't cut it for me. I mean, "blue decks" (just like green decks) make up such a huge portion of the metagame, that running the numbers against the rest of the field doesn't really provide a whole lot.

Still, there are some non-blue decks that just slaughter most "blue based" decks. Take GW Maverick; that decks just eats blue based control alive.

[DrJones]

I see little value to be gained from that kind of analysis. It includes any deck that plays blue? Throwing decks as vastly different as Landstill, Merfolk and Hive Mind into one category and just calling them "blue decks" isn't the way, I'm looking at the format. Seeing as green is super popular as well, I guess it might put up large numbers as well. It's just feels real polemic to me, arguing that something is "better" than something else. I assume this only takes "matchup data" into account, which just doesn't cut it for me. I mean, "blue decks" (just like green decks) make up such a huge portion of the metagame, that running the numbers against the rest of the field doesn't really provide a whole lot.

Still, there are some non-blue decks that just slaughter most "blue based" decks. Take GW Maverick; that decks just eats blue based control alive.This kind of analysis can also be done per archtype basis, and also per card basis. It also illustrates the matters at point: that you are an idiot if you are not playing blue, or suggest not playing blue; that the standard bannings didn't fix standard; and that despite what some blue players hold, blue was already pretty broken before misstep, so if R&D only bans that card, I can predict in advance that it won't fix anything (just like in standard) so I can avoid wasting my time and my money for the next three months.

EDIT: And frankly, that GW Maverick beats blue control when the winning decks are blue tempo and blue combo (as can be expected from a fow-dominated format), only means that you are suggesting us to play a Tier 3 deck.

[Xantid Swarm]

I read a lot of message on this tread since a few days, and I fail see what is the point of all peoples claiming that "Legacy will die if Brainstorm is banned". I also have problem to understand the attitude of those who say "If Brainstorm is banned, I'll quit".

Actualy, I'm not sure if the format would be better without Brainstorm or not, but I believe it's a legitime question, as the blue domination do not seem totaly healty and I'm convinced that Brainstorm is more responsible of it than any card.

So why Brainstorm is so essential to the format?

If it's about the consistancy it provide, I think that Ponder and Preordain can help almost as much to find a needed land, threat or combo piece, without being broken as Brainstorm is.

I understand that Brainstorm is a real fun card, that people love to play it and I know it's skill-testing. That said, well played, Brainstorm is perhaps a bit too good. I'm sure everybody is agree to say that Ancestral Recall is too good for Legacy. Why can't we can ask ourself if the power level of Brainstorm is not too near of Recall for being healty?

If we reached the point where playing blue, because of Brainstorm, is the absolute best strategy and playing any other color mean playing with an handicap, it will be the time to take action, and I fail to see why it will be bad for the format. Now, I don't claim we reached that point. But if the format continue to evolve toward more and more blue domination, we'll reach this point and we'll have to seriously discuss Brainstorm or its very presence could, at the end, kill the diversity of Legacy...

[Amon Amarth]

This kind of analysis can also be done per archtype basis, and also per card basis. It also illustrates the matters at point: that you are an idiot if you are not playing blue, or suggest not playing blue; that the standard bannings didn't fix standard; and that despite what some blue players hold, blue was already pretty broken before misstep, so if R&D only bans that card, I can predict in advance that it won't fix anything (just like in standard) so I can avoid wasting my time and my money for the next three months.

EDIT: And frankly, that GW Maverick beats blue control when the winning decks are blue tempo and blue combo (as can be expected from a fow-dominated format), only means that you are suggesting us to play a Tier 3 deck.

Wait, what? Why is Maverick a tier 3 deck? Maverick has done very well. It's a DTB for a reason, to say it's bad or a tier 3 deck is disingenuous.

[Tombstalker]

Banning brainstorm wouldnt completely kill the format but it would kill certain decks and besides brainstorm is part of the spirit of the format.
For people who dont like brainstorm/mms/blue dominance in general, theres a great alternative and its called modern. In modern blue is weak and red is more powerful. I dont see what the issue is really. If I didnt like this format I wouldnt be calling for bannings I would simply play in a different format rather than ruin this one for others.

[mordraid]

Statistics can be tweaked to anyone desire. They can say anything. By the way, the maverick deck is playing mental misstep, does that makes it a blue deck ? hell no !

-open garbage bin.
-put stats in garbage bin.
-close garbage bin.
-repeat the previous 3 steps if necessary !

[crovakiet]

hehe, if they ever want Legacy to die a terrible bloody death, banning Brainstorm would be a good way to do it. Just take a look at vintage after they restricted it.

^ agree with this. Nobody can deny that the restriction of Brainstorm caused 'some' Vintage players to jump ship to Legacy. How many? I have no idea, but I was one of them and I am sure there were others with the same sort of mindset. Did this cause Vintage to die? Maybe, maybe not, but it was definitely one of the factors contributing to its declining popularity.

It is almost guaranteed that some Legacy players will stop playing the format or Magic altogether if Brainstorm were to be banned.

I have a love-love relationship with the playset of Brainstorm ever since playing Counterpost to great success resulting in mass moola and mass store credit back in the latter half of the 90's with the awesome Thawing Glaciers (Extended was awesome back then too). So yeah if they ban Brainstorm, there is no incentive at least for me to play Magic anymore and I will definitely sell the rest of my cards at that time since I have very little interest in Standard and no interest in Modern especially the way it is right now.

[DrJones]

Wait, what? Why is Maverick a tier 3 deck? Maverick has done very well. It's a DTB for a reason, to say it's bad or a tier 3 deck is disingenuous.I was thinking that any deck you choose to specifically beat a tier 2 deck is a tier 3 deck by definition, but then I realize that tier 2 decks don't have to beat all tier 1 decks, so I probably goofed that one. In any case, you should pick decks that beat the Tier 1 or are tier 1 decks themselves, not the ones that beat tier 2 decks.

[Lancer]

I see this line of thought all the time, and so it's incredibly annoying to be subjected to this child logic. Here's the deal: If someone complains about a card, it does NOT necessarily mean he/she is unable to beat the card or the decks it's used in.

Since you label me as a cry baby who can't beat MM, I'll have to carefully explain where my criticism of MM is coming from. I have mostly played various blue aggro-control in Legacy over the years and generally believe this to be the best archetype, although I have changed deck when there was an obvious best deck (ANT, Survival, Spiral Tide, etc). I win consistently and have (had?) a high rating. Even if Misstep boosts the decks I like the most, I still hated it from the moment I saw it spoiled. I won't repeat myself as to why I hate it, because that's getting too tiring. The reason I want it gone is for the health of the format's sake, not because I keep running Lackey into it...

Anyway, I kind of regret selling 80% of my Legacy staples now that we know MM is likely to be banned. Not in a million years would I have thought they would make the correct decision. I was pretty sure the format would only keep degenerating into more and more blue mirror matches until everyone got too sick and tired of it and SCG just switched its sunday format to Modern, but now it looks like Legacy isn't going down in flames after all.

Sorry but it's not the correct decision it's not even a wise decision it's called making the gamblers happy. And I'm very sick that this game has becomes a gambler market.

The turth is mental misstep adds a little chaos in the format therefore as long as your willing to play a 1cc spell or focus your deck on 1cc spells your odds of winning isnt better.

A smart ban is Brainstorm because it will fuck over blue base control decks and mental misstep will total suck for those players since the card isnt a universal counterspell.

[TheKingslayer]

On the subject of Mental Misstep, I would be extremely disappointed to see a banning of the aforementioned card. I simply don't think that the dust has been allowed to settle since they dropped that little bomb on us, and the metagame has not yet fully adapted to it's existence. I think it deserves nearly a year to wait to see how everything adapts to it. I feel like it has been one of the best moves for legacy in a long time.

[Amon Amarth]

I was thinking that any deck you choose to specifically beat a tier 2 deck is a tier 3 deck by definition, but then I realize that tier 2 decks don't have to beat all tier 1 decks, so I probably goofed that one. In any case, you should pick decks that beat the Tier 1 or are tier 1 decks themselves, not the ones that beat tier 2 decks.

Ah, OK. I thought we were talking about beating decks like NO RUG and other DTB blue decks.

[joemauer]

I take issue with this train of thought though. If the idea of a format reaching maturity is either:

A. Everyone starts every decklist with the same X cards, then adds one of a handful of win conditions (a.k.a. Vintage)
and/or
B. Everyone gravitates to one of 2-3 well-known archetypes that dominate the field (a.k.a. Standard)


This sums it up perfect. Legacy is a unique format and cards like survival of the fittest and mental misstep turn the format stagnant. Before MM came around SSG had a new top 16 each week, it continuously rotated. Post MM it became battle of the NO rugs and Stoneblades, just like standard before there bans. So to keep the format moving any some direction(even if in circles) MM out of the way will help.

Why ban MM instead of brainstorm. Brainstorm is one of several cards, like wasteland and FoW, that are balanced perfectly for Legacy. Anything weaker would not get played, thirst for knowledge/thwart/ghost quarter. Anything stronger would dominate, ancestral recall/mana drain/strip mine. Brainstorm is at an acceptable power level for most of the Legacy community to accept. The format revolves around this level of power.

Mental Misstep does NOT dominate the format. It changes the format. It reduces the number of different decks you could realistically play in any given tourney. This is something the Legacy community and apparently WoTC(who knew?) do not like nor want. So yeah good riddance MM, it was fun while it lasted.

[Amon Amarth]

What I would absolutely love is if WotC was much more transparent in their policy concerning the B/R List and Legacy. I want an article detailing what they like/want in the format and running down the current list giving their reasoning why said card is still on it. Is it like Vintage in as much that there are cards they won't ban even if they are ubiquitous: the "pillars".

... or they could keep making decisions based on a few matches in the MODO practice room. Whatever.

[Rizso]

Mental Misstep does NOT dominate the format. It changes the format. It reduces the number of different decks you could realistically play in any given tourney. This is something the Legacy community and apparently WoTC(who knew?) do not like nor want. So yeah good riddance MM, it was fun while it lasted.

And still legacy got more decks to beat then ever. Dont think I have seen the format having 8 decks to beat before and so many other decks that you really have to look out for.

I dont feel that legacy needs any ban as of yet.

Modern, something has to get banned there thats for sure. Cloudpost, Blazing Shoal or some of the 12-cantrip instants, Rite of Flames just a few example. Unban of ancestral vision, If that card resolves the player who dared suspended it deserves to win.

Standard, really wouldnt be surpriced if Dismember would get the axe. Its really screwing with the colorpie. There is at least 2 dismember in every deck. Dismember is the new standards Test, like jacetest, flametongue test etc.

[TsumiBand]

Just do it already. Cards with Phyrexian mana should be banned. I'm not fucking kidding.

I don't care how 'broken' any given card with Phyrexian mana in its casting cost actually is. The fact that it lets any given deck play the spell for N colorless mana + X life, this just enables decks to do shit they should have no business doing per their construction, manabase, etc.

Srsly, think about the soul of the game for a second. Fuck all that "heart of the card" gushy stuff that people usually associate with speeches like this, I'm talking about as "original intent" as it gets here. Why is it okay for a deck full of Plains to cast a spell that gives target dude -5/-5? We all know what it's worth in life points to be able to kill target creature. We all know life doesn't matter until you're at 0 or less. So wtf. Just let any deck do 'off-color' things as long as they're willing to pay life? No. Just no. That's stupid. It poops on the heart of what it means to play spells that require certain colors of mana. White gets to have X effects, Blue gets Y effects, Black gets Z, etc etc. That might come off as pandering, I don't care. Phyrexian mana fucks with the soul of the game. Mental Misstep does it, Dismember does it, maybe even on the fringe of playability Birthing Pod does it, it doesn't really matter; the point of fact is the effects transcend the colors they're peculiar to, and that's a problem. It's a problem because it lets any given card that can skip over color requirements bleed into "The Best Deck" in the format, and it doesn't matter what deck it actually is; Good Cards always make The Best Deck better, no matter what color they are, Vintage is proof enough of that. So imagine a scenario where colored mana doesn't matter at all anymore. That's Phyrexian mana. I say be done with it outright.

[Lemnear]

"Red does this, white does this, etc." is a nice mindset if the colorpie wasn't messed up since years.

With this argumentation we have to BAN all red rituals because they where from blacks colopie? Ban the White Force Spike, the ISD counterspell that discards a card too, etc.?

If you came up with this in Ravnica it would have been fine, but half a decade later is pointless

[Pippin]

And still legacy got more decks to beat then ever. Dont think I have seen the format having 8 decks to beat before and so many other decks that you really have to look out for.

I dont feel that legacy needs any ban as of yet.

Bold part is not true. Between Survival ban and NPH release there were more viable decks out there as could be seen from both SCG Open results and tournaments in Europe.


Standard, really wouldnt be surpriced if Dismember would get the axe. Its really screwing with the colorpie. There is at least 2 dismember in every deck. Dismember is the new standards Test, like jacetest, flametongue test etc.

Sounds familiar :rolleyes:

[I am the brainwasher]

I am also pretty convinced that MM will be banned, even if its the cards that makes less sense.
In all honesty, the Formats problem is mostly Brainstorm (maybe S&T, but ppl still dont realize how broken Hive Mind in the Hands of a good player is). Brainstorm is just completely nuts (and I have to admit that I definetly took advantage from that fact for maybe the last 3/4 year in nearly any tournament) and definetly is in terms of powerlevel and its effect on games wideley underestimated. A lot of this has already been discussed ad nauseum, but I think its time to at least give those players credit which are honest enough, for the health of the format, to simply say it out loud that this is the card that keeps Legacy away from beeing THE format.
The "argument" I heard from most players is that Brainstorm is such a fun card to play with and that it isnt as good as people think it is, simply because a whole lot of people play a whole lot of awkward Brainstorms.
On the one hand, I heard some players complain not about the fact that Brainstorm is busted, but about the way the format is going to look like without Brainstorm. Thousands of players would snap-sign a contract with "Brainstorm or quit Legacy" just because they fear that the chaos would break out and a meta dominated by Belcher, Zoo and Merfolk would be the consequence of banning it. On the other hand a lot of players arent willing to change anything with the format because they play it since its beginning and a banning would keep them away from playing with and playing against a whole lot of decks that they announced to be the "essence of legacy". The reason they play the format is, understandable but also questionable, just because those cards/decks do exist.
Imagine ANT/DDFT/TES, nearly all (aggro)controllish decks and 2 card combo decks without Brainstorm. For quite some time I would have shook my head and maybe reacted the same way as people now respond to the "unbounded cheek" of even talking about banning Brainstorm. Well, I can just recommend to throw all that nostalgic crap over board, taking a look at a fresh new Legacy with a whole lot of opportunities and chances, even if this wont might happen, due to Wizards fear of players going nuts all around the world.
But back to mistep:
Some designers already said that they think it was a mistake and they completely underestimated the card in general, plus some other well-known american players (like AJ Sacher) also already complained about the card, and saying that it is definetly bad for the formats health (even if they play MM for obvious reasons) and IMO the card had its expiration date on it since it was printed, even if its the wrong decision in the long end.
I also see no reason for having cards like earthcraft on the banned-list, while S&T is legal, but thats another story.

One question in general: When is the new B/R announcement? Before or after GP Amsterdam?

Greetings

[r0ckstAr]

One month before, since B/R list update is sep 20th and GP is oct 22nd

[Gui]

And still legacy got more decks to beat then ever. Dont think I have seen the format having 8 decks to beat before and so many other decks that you really have to look out for.
This is convenient, the DTB math is made up so that there are 5~10 DTBs, how is this an indicator?

[jhhdk]

I think MM should be banned. Not because it reduces power of staples like SDT, Brainstorm, AEther Vial, STP, Lackey etc. but more because of the collateral damage done to less played decks that rely on 1cc utility spells to set up.

[Gheizen64]

I think FoW should be banned. Not because it reduces power of staples like SDT, Brainstorm, AEther Vial, STP, Lackey etc. but more because of the collateral damage done to less played decks that rely on crucial utility spells to set up.

Fixed.

Seriously, this is legacy, complaining about a T1 counter when you have to factor things like a T3 Emrakul or Progenitus seems stupid to me. MM isn't the cause of "pet" decks not being viable, pet decks being pet decks is the cause for them not being viable.

This argument is being done again and again and proven false again and again. I wonder who'll get tired first:

http://i.pbase.com/o2/25/583725/1/106242356.zeMh4EiE.beatingadeadhorse.gif

[I am the brainwasher]

@rockstar: Thank you very much! I apprecieate.

@Gheizen: This is totally correct. Mental Mistep isnt causing any problems on its own, even if the decks it is played in are heavily favoured by it, in opposite to the ones it hurted the most (sounds kinda confusing, but basically, the decks where it fits the most are U-based, others still can "abuse" MM, but are definetly downgraded in front of eachother).
Hopefully they ban Brainstorm, as well as S&T and unban Earth Craft.

PS: I have not enough experience with the card "Gush" itself to make competent statements about how broken or healthy the card would be for the format without the existence of Brainstorm. Hope someone can make a competent statement here, I am pretty interested.
Thanks in advance

[Gheizen64]

@rockstar: Thank you very much! I apprecieate.

@Gheizen: This is totally correct. Mental Mistep isnt causing any problems on its own, even if the decks it is played in are heavily favoured by it, in opposite to the ones it hurted the most (sounds kinda confusing, but basically, the decks where it fits the most are U-based, others still can "abuse" MM, but are definetly downgraded in front of eachother).
Hopefully they ban Brainstorm, as well as S&T and unban Earth Craft.

PS: I have not enough experience with the card "Gush" itself to make competent statements about how broken or healthy the card would be for the format without the existence of Brainstorm. Hope someone can make a competent statement here, I am pretty interested.
Thanks in advance

Gush is horrible. There's no reason to not run Gush if you run islands, and there's no reason to not run Islands if there's gush in the format. Welcome to Blue.format if Gush get ever unbanned. There are still cards like Mindtwist, Tax, Craft and Vise that would probably see 0 play even if unbanned, i don't see why WotC would even consider a card that would make blue even stronger.

[Maveric78f]

Mindtwist would see play if you ask me.

[jhhdk]

I think FoW should be banned. Not because it reduces power of staples like SDT, Brainstorm, AEther Vial, STP, Lackey etc. but more because of the collateral damage done to less played decks that rely on crucial utility spells to set up.

False analogy.

[Rizso]

Sounds familiar :rolleyes:

Color Pie doesnt matter as much in legacy as it does in standard. Legacy you can splash anything for anything, in standard that doesnt belong.

[Lemnear]

It's so funny that my signature stands true forever and I can repeat the same phrases over and over again:

Ban Brainstorm and Misstep; let Combo rape the format. I Gara-damn-te you we have the same complaints about cards like LED Zoon after. Problem is that people don't want to metagame. Goblin players still run near no warren instigators but Gang-bang Commander and dare to complain about misstep?! 2 Zoo players recently complained about Reanimator in their meta but refused to run hate maindeck. BUT ... those are the people arguing here and elsewhere that Vial/putrid Imp/Nacatl/Lackey/etc. should be handled by metagaming not the all-in-one-solution misstep!

Selective perseption or ignorance? I dunno.

Post-Survival/PRE-misstep where Aggro was well positioned against countertop and near drove it out of legacy (Countertops metagamed firespout and lavamancer btw), TES and Show&Tell where Aggros nightmare and we had the same discussion about LED and S&T being sooooo unfair to Goblins and Pet-decks.

Misstep did not kill Zoo or Aggro as Maverick shows in Europe. The reason you see so much blue in SCG's Events is pure lazyness and netdecking. Gerry T. (and others of corse) plays a deck and the next Event 20% of the field run the same. Rinse and repeat. If meerfolk, stoneblade, NO RUG and Zoo make 70+% of a meta I would not wonder if the T8 mirror that being damn blue.

My advise: Don't build decks with 8 essential One-drops w/o protection and curse the world if they won't stick. (lavamancer, Kurs Ape, nacatl, loam Lion, goblin guide, Lightning bolt, chain lightning work perfect in weenie Zoo; 4 missteps vs. 28 One-drops is fair)

My prediction:
1. banning misstep timewalks blue back to countertop, loosing vs. meerfolk/Zoo. Those Loose to combo and people cry for LED to be banned (we had that already)

2. Banning Brainstom makes blue unable to dig for certain defensive cards. With all the narrow counters in legacy (Balance, snare, misstep) a pure gambling for the right configuration. What I've learned from Vintage on the topic Brainstorm is that stack interaction aside from "I counter your spell" is removed because brainstorm is the ONLY card in legacy that let you change configuration on the stack (Ponder, preordain are sorceries and instant draw is expensive, resticted or Gush). Without Brainstorm you simply topdeck. Blue needs the right cards in the right situation while Zoo don't care what creature they draw

[Tombstalker]

I have not enough experience with the card "Gush" itself to make competent statements about how broken or healthy the card would be for the format without the existence of Brainstorm. Hope someone can make a competent statement here, I am pretty interested.
Thanks in advance

Even without brainstorm gush still says 0: counter target wasteland add UU and Draw 4 cards.

Re: format diversity, what do people think banning MMS will do for NO RUG? Its already a pretty dominant DTB and it seems to me that NO RUG (or any deck that plays GSZ and/or Hierarch) will just become more dominant, same with vial decks, specifically merfolk. In fact all the current DTBs barring blade control stand to benefit greatly from the banning. Conversely decks like TES could care less about the existence of MMS. It seems this goes against the desired result of banning MMS.

If I am mistaken great but what decks do you really think will suddenly become viable without this counterspell?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There really needs to be a word for being naive in reverse. The tenency to replace critical thought with uncritical faux-skepticism.



Also, really? You actually think combo would be what would be helped by Brainstorm being banned? Maybe you can name me a combo deck that doesn't run the card.

[alderon666]

Even without brainstorm gush still says 0: counter target wasteland add UU and Draw 4 cards.

Re: format diversity, what do people think banning MMS will do for NO RUG? Its already a pretty dominant DTB and it seems to me that NO RUG (or any deck that plays GSZ and/or Hierarch) will just become more dominant, same with vial decks, specifically merfolk. In fact all the current DTBs barring blade control stand to benefit greatly from the banning. Conversely decks like TES could care less about the existence of MMS. It seems this goes against the desired result of banning MMS.

If I am mistaken great but what decks do you really think will suddenly become viable without this counterspell?

It's not that simple. The whole dynamics of the format changes. Suddenly seeing a turn 1 Nacatl on the draw on the other side of the table is actually kinda scary.

I, as a combo player, would love to see MM go. Being sure that Seize/Duress is always hitting a FoW or Spellpierce is awesome.

Merfolk's Vial doesn't get countered anymore, but in game where they don't get it they can't tap out recklessly anymore. They have to choose between attacking with Mutavault or leaving Spellpierce up, etc.

[AriLax]

Ban Brainstorm and Misstep; let Combo rape the format. I Gara-damn-te you we have the same complaints about cards like LED Zoon after.

This is more of a problem with LED than a lack of a problem with MM or Brainstorm.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

It's so funny that my signature stands true forever and I can repeat the same phrases over and over again:

Ban Brainstorm and Misstep; let Combo rape the format. I Gara-damn-te you we have the same complaints about cards like LED Zoon after. Problem is that people don't want to metagame. Goblin players still run near no warren instigators but Gang-bang Commander and dare to complain about misstep?! 2 Zoo players recently complained about Reanimator in their meta but refused to run hate maindeck. BUT ... those are the people arguing here and elsewhere that Vial/putrid Imp/Nacatl/Lackey/etc. should be handled by metagaming not the all-in-one-solution misstep!

Selective perseption or ignorance? I dunno.

This is what happens when a format that has never had a real defined meta develops one. The players of this format just don't know what to do. This is why survival got banned, there were real strategies to beat those decks but the general public was so mystified that they couldn't beat it with the exact same shit they had been playing that they demanded a ban. They got it and it un-defined the meta for a while. Now we have one again and guess what, the calls for bans are back.




Also, really? You actually think combo would be what would be helped by Brainstorm being banned? Maybe you can name me a combo deck that doesn't run the card.

I can tell you combo needs brainstorm a lot less than control.

[Lemnear]

To me it's kinda important, that non-hive mind-combo is very rare today. In some way Brainstorm, Misstep and Counterbalance (won't Talk about FoW) negate the raw power of LED. Is that good or not to have cards that handle auch raw power?

People argue against Dismember in the same style, point on the phrexian mana. No one would complain about Dismember costing 1B. The question is the following: is 2 life equal a mana or even a landdrop? Snuff Out disagrees and Fastbond too. Choose your truth.

Is countering a vial, Nacatl, etc worth the cost? Doubt it if you counter a preordain but have none if you hit Vial or reanimate ... Damn I would even pay 5 life! Considering this ... shouldn't we think about the powerlevel of the recent One-drops too before judgeing their solution?

[Gheizen64]

It's so funny that my signature stands true forever and I can repeat the same phrases over and over again:

Ban Brainstorm and Misstep; let Combo rape the format. I Gara-damn-te you we have the same complaints about cards like LED Zoon after. Problem is that people don't want to metagame. Goblin players still run near no warren instigators but Gang-bang Commander and dare to complain about misstep?! 2 Zoo players recently complained about Reanimator in their meta but refused to run hate maindeck. BUT ... those are the people arguing here and elsewhere that Vial/putrid Imp/Nacatl/Lackey/etc. should be handled by metagaming not the all-in-one-solution misstep!

Selective perseption or ignorance? I dunno.

Post-Survival/PRE-misstep where Aggro was well positioned against countertop and near drove it out of legacy (Countertops metagamed firespout and lavamancer btw), TES and Show&Tell where Aggros nightmare and we had the same discussion about LED and S&T being sooooo unfair to Goblins and Pet-decks.

Misstep did not kill Zoo or Aggro as Maverick shows in Europe. The reason you see so much blue in SCG's Events is pure lazyness and netdecking. Gerry T. (and others of corse) plays a deck and the next Event 20% of the field run the same. Rinse and repeat. If meerfolk, stoneblade, NO RUG and Zoo make 70+% of a meta I would not wonder if the T8 mirror that being damn blue.

My advise: Don't build decks with 8 essential One-drops w/o protection and curse the world if they won't stick. (lavamancer, Kurs Ape, nacatl, loam Lion, goblin guide, Lightning bolt, chain lightning work perfect in weenie Zoo; 4 missteps vs. 28 One-drops is fair)

My prediction:
1. banning misstep timewalks blue back to countertop, loosing vs. meerfolk/Zoo. Those Loose to combo and people cry for LED to be banned (we had that already)

2. Banning Brainstom makes blue unable to dig for certain defensive cards. With all the narrow counters in legacy (Balance, snare, misstep) a pure gambling for the right configuration. What I've learned from Vintage on the topic Brainstorm is that stack interaction aside from "I counter your spell" is removed because brainstorm is the ONLY card in legacy that let you change configuration on the stack (Ponder, preordain are sorceries and instant draw is expensive, resticted or Gush). Without Brainstorm you simply topdeck. Blue needs the right cards in the right situation while Zoo don't care what creature they draw

Brainstorm gone would neuter combo as much if not more than control. Not being able to hide bombs from discard is huge and i'd say more important for combo, especially if it's of the type "1 bomb and win" like AnT, SpiralTide and SnT.

Your point 2 is just false. Banning Brainstorm would not make blue unable to dig for defensive cards in any shape, way or form. The game would not be more of a gamble in any way. If anything, people would rely less on that Brainstorm on T1 to keep hands with one hand and shuffle back the garbage and play a bit more carefully.
I hate to repeat the obvious, but since you're deliberatingly omitting it, blue is actually the color of library manipulation and most decks already play Ponder. Then there's Preordain, and then, if you want, Portent and Opt. For decks that like to shuffle cards back like NO variants, there's See Beyond. Yes, that's actually a decent card that doesn't see play in Legacy (while does a little in Vintage) because brainstorm exist.
The second part of your point is actually ignoring that there are instant card selection spells in magic aside Brainstorm, for example Top, and there's also the false analogy that Brainstorm is the thing that make players interact. Actually, in the case you described, Brainstorm isn't interacting, it's digging for answers. Casting the dig spell before the threat spell or in response of it on the stack doesn't change the number of cards you can dig, but only force you to make your choice sooner, and this make conditional answers (like Daze and MM) worse. But stay assured the biggest changes here are that discard would become actually relevant and that blue would lose a way to ancestral in the midgame (before Jace). Topdecking or such stupid things aren't what would change with Brainstorm gone. Also, look at JTMS to see how "bad" sorcery library manipulation is and how much blue "topdeck" in those conditions.
Your assertions about Zoo are also false, since Zoo (Aggro in general) actually care a lot about its draws, if he draws creature in late game is actually usually in a bad position since control play Batterskulls and Goyfs and planeswalkers that bounce or kill creatures (the new Liliana is also an house). There's a reason burn in those decks is called "reach". And again, there's a reason Sylvan Library is one of the strongest card in Zoo or if Zoo evolved in variants like Big Zoo. Because "dumb creatures that swing" aren't actually everything Aggro is about. Your whole argument is a big generalization of ideas (Brainstorm buff blue, and as such nerf combo: false, combo is as blue as control is) people (people cry for misstep and then will cry for LED: false, people say MM isn't the right thing to ban since MM isn't the reason blue is everywhere. There are multiple reasons for this, obviously, the biggest one is probably Brainstorm, in alternative, the old Island proposition is still there), decks (Aggro decks are dumbs and don't care about what they draw: false, aggro does care as much as control, especially in the days where control have huge midgame bombs like Jace and Batterskull that seal the game extremely quickly) and to top it all, sarcastic remarks about supposedly "bad" deck builders.

Your pre-emptive attacks on everyone that don't have the same PoV as you have are also fascinating. We aren't actually debating about religion or any kind of dogma here. We're having arguments, and everyone can be in the wrong since an absolute truth doesn't exist (my argument, in case you missed it, and the argument for many beside me, is that MM isn't the culprit of Blue dominance and banning MM wouldn't actually achieve anything its detractor thinks it would achieve. Blue being able to run MM and other color not is a testament of the real problem here: the ability of blue to run conditional cards thanks to the ability to reshuffle cards back in with Brainstorm. I argue that with Brainstorm gone, MM would also see a decise decrease in play and the power relationship between archetypes would remain largely unchanged, however the relationship between colors would probably get slightly better. In particular, and i speak only for myself here, i think blue would lose a bit of its power while black and possibly green would be see the biggest benefit).
Keep your "my idea is better than yours" elsewhere along with your false analogies and with your categorization of people (i heard there's a word for that).

[Gui]

It's so funny that my signature stands true forever and I can repeat the same phrases over and over again

This is clearly not the case, but you can believe in whatever you want.

In a sports comparison, you can have a tourney where Barcelona fights Real Madrid to see which is the first, and all the rest just fights for the 3rd place, or you can have a balanced scenario where a lot more teams got a chance.

My opinion is that I prefer, and Legacy has always been, the second one. Barcelona vs Real Madrid can be held at Vintage tourneys already.

[Rizso]

To me it's kinda important, that non-hive mind-combo is very rare today. In some way Brainstorm, Misstep and Counterbalance (won't Talk about FoW) negate the raw power of LED. Is that good or not to have cards that handle auch raw power?

People argue against Dismember in the same style, point on the phrexian mana. No one would complain about Dismember costing 1B. The question is the following: is 2 life equal a mana or even a landdrop? Snuff Out disagrees and Fastbond too. Choose your truth.

Is countering a vial, Nacatl, etc worth the cost? Doubt it if you counter a preordain but have none if you hit Vial or reanimate ... Damn I would even pay 5 life! Considering this ... shouldn't we think about the powerlevel of the recent One-drops too before judgeing their solution?

Problem with Dismember is tbh only in standard. its quite wrong that every deck no matter color can have the best removal in the format. Specially in a format like standard where color is more of choice then in legacy where you can splash anything.

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Fixed that for you. There's only 4 archetypes in Vintage*. The win condition is a formality. Everything else is about 40-50 cards overlap with one of the existing four.

* - Blue, Bazaar, Workshop, Oath


You can't just say Blue. There are a TON of different lists for blue with little overlap. Also nice job crossing out Bob Control. Look at the vintage top 8 from worlds. Two BOB GUSH CONTROL.

[Tombstalker]

Gheizen64- I agree that targetted discard stands to benefit greatly from the banning of mental misstep and especially from brainstorm, and this in and of itself is a great thing IMO. However while the former would actually benefit my deck of choice (TA) the latter would put a serious damper on TAs viability, which is largely made possible by the very existence of brainstorm. Without brainstorm decks like TA that operate almost exclusively off conditional cards would likely die off.
So I guess ultimately my reasons are selfish, but why not since tempo decks like TA are the whole reason I play Legacy to begin with. Sniff...now look, theres a tear in my beer!

Anyway I still think the focus should be more on printing stronger, hard to splash cards in nonblue colors but it doesnt look like this is ever going to happen. oh well guess we'll see on tuesday. Either way ive said my part time to move on. Cheers.

[Gheizen64]

Gheizen64- I agree that targetted discard stands to benefit greatly from the banning of mental misstep and especially from brainstorm, and this in and of itself is a great thing IMO. However while the former would actually benefit my deck of choice (TA) the latter would put a serious damper on TAs viability, which is largely made possible by the very existence of brainstorm. Without brainstorm decks like TA that operate almost exclusively off conditional cards would likely die off.
So I guess ultimately my reasons are selfish, but why not since tempo decks like TA are the whole reason I play Legacy to begin with. Sniff...now look, theres a tear in my beer!

Anyway I still think the focus should be more on printing stronger, hard to splash cards in nonblue colors but it doesnt look like this is ever going to happen. oh well guess we'll see on tuesday. Either way ive said my part time to move on. Cheers.

I'm not asking for a ban of brainstorm, if anything, i'm for more unbanning and such. What i'm saying is simply that if people (rightly so i'd say) complain about blue, brainstorm is probably the biggest offender and MM is just a strawman. People think they lose to MM all the times but they're losing more to brainstorm than anything else. MM being everywhere isn't also a really good argument when brainstorm and FoW are played only slightly less (last T16 of SGC, 54 MM vs 50 FoW), and MM is played also in decks that doesn't splash blue, so it isn't really helpful for the argument "blue is everywhere", unless you consider 4MM and 0 islands a blue splash.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This is what happens when a format that has never had a real defined meta develops one. The players of this format just don't know what to do. This is why survival got banned, there were real strategies to beat those decks but the general public was so mystified that they couldn't beat it with the exact same shit they had been playing that they demanded a ban. They got it and it un-defined the meta for a while. Now we have one again and guess what, the calls for bans are back.




I can tell you combo needs brainstorm a lot less than control.

And I can say you're full of it and that combo has way more situational and dead pieces and sometimes even pieces it can't have in hand.

Let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

[CorpT]

Some more interesting data:

These are the decks that played at least 1% of the color shown, but not the respective Blue dual with it. So, the white is anything playing at least 1% White, but not Tundra. Everything else is the same. Top 16 from SCG events.

05-22-11 - Present:
White 67 29%
Green 68 29%
Red 37 16%
Black 60 26%
Total 235

01-02-11 - 05-15-11:
White 82 32%
Green 75 29%
Red 55 21%
Black 67 26%
Total 256

[Tammit67]

And I can say you're full of it and that combo has way more situational and dead pieces and sometimes even pieces it can't have in hand.

Let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

I can't articulate the reasoning for combo not to be the one benefitting the most from brainstorm

[CorpT]

To the people talking about how diverse the format is:

I think that really depends on your definition of diverse. I look at the DTB and see 1 Aggro, 1 Combo deck and then a mix of Aggro/Control decks.

Zoo: Aggro
Reanimator: Combo
Merfolk: Aggro/Control
Maverick: Mid-Range Aggro
Rock: Mid-Range Aggro
Team America: Mid-Range Control
Blade Control: Control
NO RUG: Combo Control

There is a lot of variations on these so it is very hard to lock them down, but there is only one true Aggro deck that is viable. Zoo. There is only one true Combo deck: Reanimator.

After that, it's decks with significant amounts of control. Sure, one uses WU instead of BUG, but it's really getting to be: 4 FoW + 4 MM + 4 Brainstorm + 48 Cards = Deck. 4 of the decks run that package. A 5th skips Brainstorm.

How is 5 decks running 8 of the exact same cards diverse? It's just, star with this shell, add your favorite color(s) and call it a deck.

[DrJones]

It would have been more useful the lists that run at least 1% white, 1% blue, but not tundra, to account for the missteps.

[Lemnear]

Brainstorm gone would neuter combo as much if not more than control. Not being able to hide bombs from discard is huge and i'd say more important for combo, especially if it's of the type "1 bomb and win" like AnT, SpiralTide and SnT.

Most combo decks in Legacy run Brainstorm and Ponder. With BS banned they can Switch to preordain or Top. Hiding cards is overrated if I look at the actual meta. There's Hymn and sometimes Thougtseize in Team Amerika. IF Misstep stays Thoughtseize is out of the bill.


Your point 2 is just false. Banning Brainstorm would not make blue unable to dig for defensive cards in any shape, way or form. The game would not be more of a gamble in any way. If anything, people would rely less on that Brainstorm on T1 to keep hands with one hand and shuffle back the garbage and play a bit more carefully.

Brainstorm T1 is a mistake if there's not an Ad Nauseam an shit on the stack and you need a counter. Considering such a thing to prove me wrong is pointless. Brainstorm is an instant; sorcery speed selection is Low powered with all the narrow counterspells.


I hate to repeat the obvious, but since you're deliberatingly omitting it, blue is actually the color of library manipulation and most decks already play Ponder. Then there's Preordain, and then, if you want, Portent and Opt. For decks that like to shuffle cards back like NO variants, there's See Beyond. Yes, that's actually a decent card that doesn't see play in Legacy (while does a little in Vintage) because brainstorm exist.

How can you compare See Beyond and Brainstorm for the sheer ability to shuffle shit away? Different cardtype and manacost. Comparing Ancestral Recall and Concentrate here. No base for serious discussion


The second part of your point is actually ignoring that there are instant card selection spells in magic aside Brainstorm, for example Top, and there's also the false analogy that Brainstorm is the thing that make players interact. Actually, in the case you described, Brainstorm isn't interacting, it's digging for answers. Casting the dig spell before the threat spell or in response of it on the stack doesn't change the number of cards you can dig, but only force you to make your choice sooner, and this make conditional answers (like Daze and MM) worse.

If you've ever sat in front of a 16-card-stack, you'll maybe understand what I mean. Interaction in Magic means playing a threat and answer it; how can you say Brainstorm isn't interacting? The second part is obviously right


But stay assured the biggest changes here are that discard would become actually relevant and that blue would lose a way to ancestral in the midgame (before Jace). Topdecking or such stupid things aren't what would change with Brainstorm gone. Also, look at JTMS to see how "bad" sorcery library manipulation is and how much blue "topdeck" in those conditions.

Jace is more than "just" Library manipulation, you know that.


Your assertions about Zoo are also false, since Zoo (Aggro in general) actually care a lot about its draws, if he draws creature in late game is actually usually in a bad position since control play Batterskulls and Goyfs and planeswalkers that bounce or kill creatures (the new Liliana is also an house). There's a reason burn in those decks is called "reach".

You are right in that context. I took my example to differ that there's a crucial difference in having spell snare drawn if your opponents doesn't play a 2cc-spell in his turn than, Zoo drawing Nacatl, Loam Lion or Kird Ape. Redundance is the keyword.


And again, there's a reason Sylvan Library is one of the strongest card in Zoo or if Zoo evolved in variants like Big Zoo. Because "dumb creatures that swing" aren't actually everything Aggro is about. Your whole argument is a big generalization of ideas (Brainstorm buff blue, and as such nerf combo: false, combo is as blue as control is) people (people cry for misstep and then will cry for LED: false, people say MM isn't the right thing to ban since MM isn't the reason blue is everywhere. There are multiple reasons for this, obviously, the biggest one is probably Brainstorm, in alternative, the old Island proposition is still there), decks (Aggro decks are dumbs and don't care about what they draw: false, aggro does care as much as control, especially in the days where control have huge midgame bombs like Jace and Batterskull that seal the game extremely quickly) and to top it all, sarcastic remarks about supposedly "bad" deck builders.

1. Combo is As Blue as control: There are certain Combo-Decks this stand true but generalisation is that you throw to my head but doing exact the same here

2. Do we argue about mm, brainstorm or both? I'm Not sure here. My predicted result of banning both is based of the asumption that Vial and Zoo do the same thing they did before misstep and at that time back then we had here the complaints that LED and S&T are unfair and need the hammer.

3. I'm not sarcastic, I'm irritated to hear that bad deckbuilding isn't considered being a reason for loosing against 1-2 counterspells, resulting in a mindset that blue is [insert insult]. Both of my examples happend in real life in one of the stores I visit.


Your pre-emptive attacks on everyone that don't have the same PoV as you have are also fascinating. We aren't actually debating about religion or any kind of dogma here. We're having arguments, and everyone can be in the wrong since an absolute truth doesn't exist (my argument, in case you missed it, and the argument for many beside me, is that MM isn't the culprit of Blue dominance and banning MM wouldn't actually achieve anything its detractor thinks it would achieve. Blue being able to run MM and other color not is a testament of the real problem here: the ability of blue to run conditional cards thanks to the ability to reshuffle cards back in with Brainstorm.

You find it offensive? Ok, I can live with it and the possibility that truth is somewhere in the middle of certain extreme positions we two and others have. Please explain why other colors can Not run misstep? I've seen the opposite from Maverick to Goblins. Protect your cards from backbreaking common answers is desireable. Reshuffling is indeed very strong. We don't need to discuss blues strengths.


I argue that with Brainstorm gone, MM would also see a decise decrease in play and the power relationship between archetypes would remain largely unchanged, however the relationship between colors would probably get slightly better. In particular, and i speak only for myself here, i think blue would lose a bit of its power while black and possibly green would be see the biggest benefit).

Mostly agree. My post adresses the Banning of misstep, brainstorm or both. I can not predict how this certain Ban would affect the meta.


Keep your "my idea is better than yours" elsewhere along with your false analogies and with your categorization of people (i heard there's a word for that).

Wow! To this point I felt we have a serious discussion. Because I have the feeling that you are a careful reader you sure saw that I'm from germany and I'm pretty sure that fact made you using that phrases.

Calling me pretty obviously a NAZI in an open Forum like this, disgusts me in so many ways I can not explain without being banned. It near equals being american and ask a japanese laughing: "How tasted Hiroshima?". Do you even have any idea how insulting that is or do you simply don't care?

I can not ignore that neither can I get over that.

[Gheizen64]

To the people talking about how diverse the format is:

I think that really depends on your definition of diverse. I look at the DTB and see 1 Aggro, 1 Combo deck and then a mix of Aggro/Control decks.

Zoo: Aggro
Reanimator: Combo
Merfolk: Aggro/Control
Maverick: Mid-Range Aggro
Rock: Mid-Range Aggro
Team America: Mid-Range Control
Blade Control: Control
NO RUG: Combo Control

There is a lot of variations on these so it is very hard to lock them down, but there is only one true Aggro deck that is viable. Zoo. There is only one true Combo deck: Reanimator.

After that, it's decks with significant amounts of control. Sure, one uses WU instead of BUG, but it's really getting to be: 4 FoW + 4 MM + 4 Brainstorm + 48 Cards = Deck. 4 of the decks run that package. A 5th skips Brainstorm.

How is 5 decks running 8 of the exact same cards diverse? It's just, star with this shell, add your favorite color(s) and call it a deck.

Honestly i think legacy had always the appearance of being more "diverse" only because early on each expansion actually influenced it a lot. Going back in time, there was also a time when it was all Thresh and thresh variants. Then Goyf and Tombstalker came. Then Progenitus made NO a legitimate strategy. Then Emrakul made SnT an annoying card. Jace changed the game of control. SFM + batterskull was another boon for control, Nacatl and Lynx also improved Zoo consistently, while goblin didn't see any equivalent improvement and as such slowly disappeared (unban recruiter plz?). Maverick was made possible by cheap and scalable bombs like GSZ and KotR. Vengevine broke Survival. The praetor reanimated Reanimator. Hive mind came to life after the printing of pacts. And so on and so on. If no new meaningful cards (MM ain't since it doesn't create strategies, just go everywhere) are added to the pool, then the meta can stabilize at a point, reaching the point where we are now. That said, i'm not entirely convinced we have seen all the format can give us now.

[CorpT]

It would have been more useful the lists that run at least 1% white, 1% blue, but not tundra, to account for the missteps.

I'm not sure I follow this. You want to see the % of decks that run 1% White, 1% Blue and no Tundra? Getting the data is pretty easy once I figured out their URLs so I can get whatever you need. You want to see the decks that run Misstep, but not Islands, is that it?

[Gheizen64]

Calling me pretty obviously a NAZI in an open Forum like this, disgusts me in so many ways I can not explain without being banned. It near equals being american and ask a japanese laughing: "How tasted Hiroshima?". Do you Even have any idea how insulting that is or do you simply don't care?

Dude seriously? We're in 2011 just in case you forgot, i don't give a shit if someone call me on what happened 70 years ago. Grow up, i COULD understand if you were a black man from america or south africa of the 60', but being a german (btw, thanks for pointing out something i didn't even know, but i guess you had to invalidate my arguments some way and Godwin's Law is good for this) of (i guess) the '80 generation all you can talk me about are the Kraftwerk and such.

[DrJones]

Yes, people don't consider a deck that splashes misstep a "blue" deck, and want to take that out of the equation.

[Draener]

To be honest, even if all of the decklists in the dtb ran MM and brainstorm, I would not consider it to be overpowered. You know what brainstorm and MM do? They make your deck not shit all over itself and stop decks from shitting all over you respectively. This does not blue's cards overpowered, but rather consistent. And I am all for consistency, because when I attend a tourney, I want it to be less coin-flip more decision making. Now, what I would really like to see is some other colors get some consistency cards... preferably ones that don't cost 4+ so they are actually relevant(consistency needs to occur most within the first few turns of the game, as this is where variance is most likely to screw you).

Would we all still be bitching if mental misstep was red? It would not bother me... but I am curious as to what other people think.

[Gheizen64]

To be honest, even if all of the decklists in the dtb ran MM and brainstorm, I would not consider it to be overpowered. You know what brainstorm and MM do? They make your deck not shit all over itself and stop decks from shitting all over you respectively. This does not blue's cards overpowered, but rather consistent. And I am all for consistency, because when I attend a tourney, I want it to be less coin-flip more decision making. Now, what I would really like to see is some other colors get some consistency cards... preferably ones that don't cost 4+ so they are actually relevant(consistency needs to occur most within the first few turns of the game, as this is where variance is most likely to screw you).

Would we all still be bitching if mental misstep was red? It would not bother me... but I am curious as to what other people think.

At most it could've been white... As a white card i would have liked so much more, yeah.

[CorpT]

Yes, people don't consider a deck that splashes misstep a "blue" deck, and want to take that out of the equation.

1% White, 1% Blue, no Tundra would show decks with Misstep in a non-blue deck. Unfortunately, it would also show a lot of Dredge decks. That's going to be harder to sort out. I can do Misstep, 1% White no Tundra though. Is that what you want?

[crovakiet]

Some more interesting data:

These are the decks that played at least 1% of the color shown, but not the respective Blue dual with it. So, the white is anything playing at least 1% White, but not Tundra. Everything else is the same. Top 16 from SCG events.

05-22-11 - Present:
White 67 29%
Green 68 29%
Red 37 16%
Black 60 26%
Total 235

01-02-11 - 05-15-11:
White 82 32%
Green 75 29%
Red 55 21%
Black 67 26%
Total 256

All that tells me is that blue pre-misstep and post-misstep is a prevalent support color and that 'diversity' in regards to the color pie itself is a mere illusion though that is not necessarily a bad thing. Red declining the most at 5% with other colors staying exactly the same except for white decreasing at 3% shows that Goblins/burn became a weakened strategy post-misstep. Nothing surprising at all. Kind of makes me think that people who want misstep banned are the ones who played Goblins.

But then again, anyone can turn raw statistics data into whatever they want it to say amiright?

[CorpT]

05-22-11 - Present
Decks running 10% Color, Misstep and No Blue/Color Dual:
White: 6
Green: 6
Red: 3
Black: 5

Green and White were 100% overlap. Black was a subset of those. So, a total of 9 decks running Misstep and not Blue. I had to up to 10% to avoid Reanimator targets.

[Lemnear]

Dude seriously? We're in 2011 just in case you forgot, i don't give a shit if someone call me on what happened 70 years ago. Grow up, i COULD understand if you were a black man from america or south africa of the 60', but being a german (btw, thanks for pointing out something i didn't even know, but i guess you had to invalidate my arguments some way and Godwin's Law is good for this) of (i guess) the '80 generation all you can talk me about are the Kraftwerk and such.

So you run through the street throwing germans and blacks the "n-words" against their head and advise them to "grow up"? This post is full of arrogance and ignorance... disgusting

[KevinTrudeau]

If Brainstorm does indeed get banned, I'm willing to bet it's strictly because WotC wanted to kill off Legacy, not because they honestly thought banning it would be good for the health of the format. Brainstorm, along with Force of Will, is the soul of Legacy; remove it, and you are left with a nasty-ass corpse, getting eaten by nasty-ass maggots and nasty-ass bugs.

Just to reiterate my position regarding the Sept. B/R updates:

Legacy: Nothing

Standard:

Ban ZEN block, M11, SOM block, M12
Unban 9th edition, RAV block, TSP block

Modern: Unban 6ED, MM block, INV block, 7ED, ODY block, ONS block

Vintage: Ignorant of the format

Extended:

Ban all currently legal sets
Unban all sets formerly legal in Extended (including Core Sets) between INV block and RAV block (I'd drop Legacy in an instant if this were to happen)

[I am the brainwasher]

@Kev.Trudeau:
Words cant even express how useful that post was... .
Just saying that BS is the somewhat "soul" of Legacy is enough to give competent statements about any B/R considerations? Wow, I am amazed. Well, I guess you cant expect too much from someone whos interest is obviously just selfish ("Vintage: Ignorant of the format").
What did you intended to acomplish with your post? All sort of narrow-minded, so called "oldSkool" players (and this comes from a guy who played MUC with a single Morphling and 2 Masticore as win cons in 2009, just sayin) agreeing with you, just because of nastolgic and grown old thoughts? Congratz to you man... .
Wish this whole discussion would become a lot more serious in general.

[Sims]

Wish this whole discussion would become a lot more serious in general.

There is no point. The discussions that happen on this site about B/R have next to no impact on actual B/R policy with the DCI. It's all pure speculation, theorycraft, and ego stroking. You want serious discussion on a B/R list? Okay, here's a serious B/R list discussion from '04.




Brain on fire..

Must... lock.. thread...

Ok. Look. I'm only going to say this once. If you have any questions or rebuttals, keep them to yourself.

Oath Sucks. Ok? It's awful. Green is an awful color. Building a control deck around it doesn't make it any better. *see "Druids, Oath of" and "Psychatog" and "Junk, PT" (ok, so junk really isn't a control deck.. well, kinda) Come to think of it, building a combo deck around that color doesn't work too well either. *see "Aluren."

Know why suicide oath was winning in extended back two seasons ago? Extended does not have the following cards: Swords to plowshares, Force of Will. Believe it or not, those cards are powerful enough to be a constant presence in any metagame with the card pool they are legal in. In fact, you may play against those very cards in the next tournament you play in. Or you may even play them yourself. I need a /sarcasm tag really badly.

If you want to play the game where I name a combo, then you name one that stops it, then I name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. Benzo would be moderately playable with entomb. In fact, I would probably play it. I recieve unhealthy pleasure from reanimating fatties. However, if you check my whole existance-of-cards-that-would-slightly-affect-the-extended-metagame-if-they-were-legal arguement above, you will notice that sometimes a big ass fatty isn't that hard to deal with. Also, Tormod's crypt isn't avalable to play in extended. You know, those things you have because you didn't want to lose to Dragon (yet you did anyhow, didn't you?)

Please stop drawing conjecture from extended. It's different cardpools. Ok? We're still more like type 1 than extended. Another thing: The bannings of replenish, skullclamp, etc just because they were banned in extended. Not too bringht. They missed survival of the goddamn fittest. No worries though, it's not like anyone played those cards in old 1.5 anyhow.

This brings us full circle to Oath of Druids, and the fact that green sucks. I know an aggro deck can't handle a turn 2 fatty. Know what? That aggro deck is probably playing green. They weren't going to win anyhow.

Mind twist is a very swingy card. In the absence of good acceleration, it's not that great turn 1. However, turn 4, it empties your opponent's hand. That's pretty frickin' swingy. Of course, this depends on your matchup. I know you aren't playing mind twist in suicide. Why? Because I know you aren't playing suicide. You are a better magic player than that. So I know you didn't just compare mind twist to hymn to tourach. While hymn to tourach is actually more cost effective than a mind twist, Mind Twist happens to be infinately splashable for such a devistating effect.

Metalworker is fine. Metalworker in the current card pool is at just about the right power level for the format. After all, goblin lacky is still legal. Guess what, it's also an artifact and a creature.

I refuse to comment on the very specualtion that a "broken replenish" deck exists. I believe that to be an oxymoron. If by boken you mean "slow and disruptable" then.. nevermind.

In conclusion,

-Discussing B/R changes just make you look dumb. It makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. I might have a thousand or more mistakes in what I have written above. I most likely do not.

- I blame people who discuss B/R changes like they are smarter than R&D for the change and seperation of the lists. You may be smarter than R&D. That's ok, so is my toaster. Just don't do it. Ok? Don't.

- Green sucks.





Important parts bolded for significance.

[CorpT]

There is no point. The discussions that happen on this site about B/R have next to no impact on actual B/R policy with the DCI. It's all pure speculation, theorycraft, and ego stroking. You want serious discussion on a B/R list? Okay, here's a serious B/R list discussion from '04.

True. I just hope Tom LaPille manages to put enough clicks together to get to a MODO practice room and lose to Mental Misstep twice. Even when he's playing Great Sable Stag. That should be enough to get Misstep banned.

[KevinTrudeau]

@Kev.Trudeau:
Words cant even express how useful that post was... .
Just saying that BS is the somewhat "soul" of Legacy is enough to give competent statements about any B/R considerations? Wow, I am amazed. Well, I guess you cant expect too much from someone whos interest is obviously just selfish ("Vintage: Ignorant of the format").
What did you intended to acomplish with your post? All sort of narrow-minded, so called "oldSkool" players (and this comes from a guy who played MUC with a single Morphling and 2 Masticore as win cons in 2009, just sayin) agreeing with you, just because of nastolgic and grown old thoughts? Congratz to you man... .
Wish this whole discussion would become a lot more serious in general.

I was being a bit facetiously myopic throughout the entirety of that last post. I thought the "nasty-ass" mantra would denote that, but I apologize for any confusion (though I am pretty much completely ignorant of all matters Vintage).

My honest thoughts and opinions:
-Brainstorm didn't suddenly become more broken these last few months; why has there been a sudden surge of proponents for the banning of a beloved, tried-and-true Legacy staple (I know, I know, subjective argumentation)?
-The format hasn't stabilized long enough to discern whether Mental Misstep is bad for the health of Legacy. Wait until December.

[Gheizen64]

So you run through the street throwing germans and blacks the "n-words" against their head and advise them to "grow up"? This post is full of arrogance and ignorance... disgusting

K, understood. I've never ever have called someone racist or n* or anything else, not even on the internet, but actually you managed to feel like i did when i was speaking about your ideas and managed to switch the blame to me. This just feel you looked for an excuse to dodge a conversation, i hope it isn't the case.

[Koby]

You can't just say Blue. There are a TON of different lists for blue with little overlap. Also nice job crossing out Bob Control. Look at the vintage top 8 from worlds. Two BOB GUSH CONTROL.

Gush is Gush is Gush.

Adding Bobs or adding Trygon Predator doesn't change the other 45 cards in the deck that are essentially a Blue control shell. You're missing the Forest for a Tree.

[3eowulf]

Gush is Gush is Gush.

Adding Bobs or adding Trygon Predator doesn't change the other 45 cards in the deck that are essentially a Blue control shell. You're missing the Forest for a Tree.

Except the fact that GAT (dryad beats), Gush Storm (Tendrils) and Menendian's Worlds Deck (TinkerBot) have a very different gameplan...

In looking at similiar decklist, it's you that are missing the difference.

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Gush is Gush is Gush.

Adding Bobs or adding Trygon Predator doesn't change the other 45 cards in the deck that are essentially a Blue control shell. You're missing the Forest for a Tree.

Not true. Rich Shay Gush Storm Control vs Paul M/Stephen M Bob/Gush Control. Totally different. Also you lumped Fish in with blue, which doesn't typically run Gush....

[Koby]

Except the fact that GAT (dryad beats), Gush Storm (Tendrils) and Menendian's Worlds Deck (TinkerBot) have a very different gameplan...

In looking at similiar decklist, it's you that are missing the difference.

OK, I'll give you that it's not 45 cards. It's merely 35 cards shared between:
GAT, Gush Control, and Gush Storm.

If I ignore the names of the "blue" fetches and just call them "fetches", that difference shrinks to 38 overlapping cards. 38/60 cards are identical, which is more than 63%.

I still maintain that the deck is essentially Gush + flavor of kill condition. One runs creatures, another runs Bobs and Missteps, and the third runs Tendrils of Agony and Library. The deck operates in the complete same mechanism with varying degrees of flavor. This isn't the difference between Goblins/Landstill/Combo - it's the difference between Sword of Fire/Ice, Feast/Famine, Light/Shadow in a UW Stoneblade deck.

http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/rukcus/large/e55b8b181433c2b57b1d426d4913e62a.png

So what's the point? Gush is the archetype, and varying flavors don't constitute a new deck, but rather mirror the play style of its pilot.

I'll repeat my earlier assertion - Vintage only has four archetypes - Blue, Bazaar, Workshop, and Oath*. Even Oath can be considered a blue deck, which gives the option to consider Fish a successful strategy.

[KobeBryan]

If Brainstorm does indeed get banned, I'm willing to bet it's strictly because WotC wanted to kill off Legacy, not because they honestly thought banning it would be good for the health of the format. Brainstorm, along with Force of Will, is the soul of Legacy; remove it, and you are left with a nasty-ass corpse, getting eaten by nasty-ass maggots and nasty-ass bugs.

Just to reiterate my position regarding the Sept. B/R updates:

Legacy: Nothing

Standard:

Ban ZEN block, M11, SOM block, M12
Unban 9th edition, RAV block, TSP block

Modern: Unban 6ED, MM block, INV block, 7ED, ODY block, ONS block

Vintage: Ignorant of the format

Extended:

Ban all currently legal sets
Unban all sets formerly legal in Extended (including Core Sets) between INV block and RAV block (I'd drop Legacy in an instant if this were to happen)



How can you unban 9th ed, rav, and tsp block in standard?

[3eowulf]

OK, I'll give you that it's not 45 cards. It's merely 35 cards shared between:
GAT, Gush Control, and Gush Storm.

If I ignore the names of the "blue" fetches and just call them "fetches", that difference shrinks to 38 overlapping cards. 38/60 cards are identical, which is more than 63%.

I still maintain that the deck is essentially Gush + flavor of kill condition. One runs creatures, another runs Bobs and Missteps, and the third runs Tendrils of Agony and Library. The deck operates in the complete same mechanism with varying degrees of flavor. This isn't the difference between Goblins/Landstill/Combo - it's the difference between Sword of Fire/Ice, Feast/Famine, Light/Shadow in a UW Stoneblade deck.

So what's the point? Gush is the archetype, and varying flavors don't constitute a new deck, but rather mirror the play style of its pilot.

I'll repeat my earlier assertion - Vintage only has four archetypes - Blue, Bazaar, Workshop, and Oath*. Even Oath can be considered a blue deck, which gives the option to consider Fish a successful strategy.

Since you don't understand my point about the strategic plan of those decks and continue to pretend Gush+cards=Blue deck=1 archetype of four, could you please tell me what are these top2 decks? (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1442&highlight=location)

They are neither Bazaar, Workshop or Oath decks, and they definitely aren't playing Gush, so they can't be a specific flavor of a "blue deck". Are you saying that those are two rogue decks, or there's a flaw in your reasoning?

[Richard Cheese]

Since you don't understand my point about the strategic plan of those decks and continue to pretend Gush+cards=Blue deck=1 archetype of four, could you please tell me what are these top2 decks? (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1442&highlight=location)

They are neither Bazaar, Workshop or Oath decks, and they definitely aren't playing Gush, so they can't be a specific flavor of a "blue deck". Are you saying that those are two rogue decks, or there's a flaw in your reasoning?

Still just Vintage Blue shell.

1 of every restricted card
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Win Condition

That is basically the shell for every Vintage deck that isn't Dredge or MUD right?

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Still just Vintage Blue shell.

1 of every restricted card
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Win Condition

That is basically the shell for every Vintage deck that isn't Dredge or MUD right?


Again........ Fish.

[keys]

Still just Vintage Blue shell.

1 of every restricted card
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Win Condition

That is basically the shell for every Vintage deck that isn't Dredge or MUD right?

This is a pretty undeveloped view of the metagame.

FYI:

1. Good Vintage decks do not just play 1 of every restricted card. There is a lot of nuanced decision making that goes into whether cards like Gifts, Crypt, or LoA make the cut.

2. Ok

3. Drain isn't played in a lot of blue control lists, and the correct number is never obvious in those that do.

4. Choice of win condition has a big influence on the deck. Oath of Druids is pretty different from Tinker is pretty different from Quirion Dryad is pretty different from Grindstone. All of these are blue archtypes but do not look or play the same.

[DragoFireheart]

Ban Mental Misstep? Oh look, Storm Combo is going to come back, then CounterTop, then we have the same shit we had 4 months ago before MMS got printed.

Frankly I hope they leave it alone. With Hivemind being able to shit on CounterTop, Storm being able to shit on non-Counter non-Merfolk, and Dredge being able to shit on everything else, expect to see a combo format.

Or better yet: ban mental misstep, and then ban Aether Vial so control decks have a shot at playing.

[ESG]

True. I just hope Tom LaPille manages to put enough clicks together to get to a MODO practice room and lose to Mental Misstep twice. Even when he's playing Great Sable Stag. That should be enough to get Misstep banned.

Actually, you'll find this interesting: I was at a 71-person unsactioned Legacy event last weekend for a Lotus, and Tom was playing in it. He was running UW Stoneforge, so he had Mental Missteps. I saw no Great Sable Stags.

[crovakiet]

Actually, you'll find this interesting: I was at a 71-person unsactioned Legacy event last weekend for a Lotus, and Tom was playing in it. He was running UW Stoneforge, so he had Mental Missteps. I saw no Great Sable Stags.

Sounds interesting, especially if it had Tom playing UW Mystic for the lulz. Is there a report anywhere for this tournament showing top 8 results and/or match summaries?

[Solaran_X]

Still just Vintage Blue shell.

1 of every restricted card
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Win Condition

That is basically the shell for every Vintage deck that isn't Dredge or MUD right?
1. There are 44 Restricted cards in Vintage.
2. Add 4 Force of Will. 48 cards now.
3. Add 4 Mana Drains. 52 cards now.
4. Add win condition. Let's say Blightsteel, since Tinker is counted as a Restricted card. And let's include Voltaic Key, since Time Vault is also restricted. 54 cards now.

Where is your mana base? Or are you supposed to play this deck with 2 lands, a Lotus, five Moxes, a Mana Crypt, a Mana Vault, and a Sol Ring?

You, sir, know NOTHING about Vintage. My deck runs 19 of the 44 Restricted cards (invalidates your first point), does run Force of Will, doesn't run Mana Drains (invalidates your third point), does have a win condition. And it's the same as the list that took 4th at Vintage Worlds in GenCon - so it's not some bad jank deck. It's a finely tuned Bob Gush Control list.

What you listed isn't the shell for anything but a very, very bad EDH deck (and illegal, with 4x Force and 4x Drain).

[TeenieBopper]

Wow. The three people who actually give a shit about such a shitty format are all here on a site that has nothing to do with said shitty format (just a different shitty format).

[CorpT]

If we're done talking about Vintage...

What is the problem with banning Brainstorm? I know, heart and soul of Legacy, but give better arguments than that. For those that say adapt, what is the way* you adapt to Brainstorm?

*Not blue.

[majikal]

If we're done talking about Vintage...

What is the problem with banning Brainstorm? I know, heart and soul of Legacy, but give better arguments than that. For those that say adapt, what is the way* you adapt to Brainstorm?

*Not blue.

Because there aren't a whole bunch of restricted cards and tutors in Legacy to make Brainstorm busted enough to ban? Sure, it's overpowered and ubiquitous, but so are Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, Wasteland, Force of Will, Stoneforge Mystic, dual lands, fetchlands, and Vendilion Clique. That's kind of the point. Legacy is full of overpowered things. The time to ban something is when it centralizes the metagame around a specific strategy or directly enables a degenerate combo, not when a whole bunch of different decks are playing a broad utility card like Brainstorm or Mental Misstep (which I don't think needs to be banned, either).

Why do you need to adapt to Brainstorm? It isn't a threat. It's a filtering mechanism. Would you tell someone to adapt to Ponder?

The argument to ban Brainstorm is ridiculous. It's very much akin to the absurd argument over on Salvation to ban Sol Ring from EDH.

[CorpT]

So the answer is: everyone should be playing Brainstorm?

[majikal]

Did I say that? Stop trolling already.

[JustPAT4]

So the answer is: everyone should be playing Brainstorm?

Are you running fetch-lands? Do your lands have the ability "Tap: Add U to your mana pool?"

That was easy.

If you feel compelled to "adapt" to Brainstorm without running blue, Wizards printed a gem of a card in New Phyrexia...I believe it was colorless...For 2 life it counters Brainstorm. Pretty spicy tech.

[joemauer]

So the answer is: everyone should be playing Brainstorm?

Card advantage is good so everyone that can play brainstorm should. If not brainstorm some other card advantage: dark confidant, hymn to tourach, time spiral, breakthrough, goblin ringleader, standstill, silvergill adept, careful study, loam+cycle lands, top+counterbalance are nice. But as catch all/generic card advantage goes brainstorm is usually the easiest fit into decks, but not always the best form of card advantage in this format. Please stop trying to ban brainstorm.

[TheKingslayer]

Are you running fetch-lands? Do your lands have the ability "Tap: Add U to your mana pool?"

That was easy.

If you feel compelled to "adapt" to Brainstorm without running blue, Wizards printed a gem of a card in New Phyrexia...I believe it was colorless...For 2 life it counters Brainstorm. Pretty spicy tech.

Spicy.

[joemauer]

Forgot argothian enchantress, ad naseum and two busted ones: glimpse of nature and thoughtcast. I'm thinking brainstorm isn't the best form of card advantage.

[CalebD]

Bstorm is card filtering, not advantage. It creates virtual card advantage because you shuffle away your worse cards, but it doesn't actually leave you up anything.

I've been liking Chains of Mephistopheles lately for the Bstorm+ancestral visions+jace meta.

[JustPAT4]

Forgot argothian enchantress, ad naseum and two busted ones: glimpse of nature and thoughtcast. I'm thinking brainstorm isn't the best form of card advantage.

Technically Brainstorm doesn't offer card advantage at all. It's card quality when paired with a shuffle effect.

I'm gonna walk through this on my fingers: casting Brainstorm puts one card from your hand into your graveyard, three from you library into your hand, then two from your hand back on top. I'm not too good with numbers, but unless you're a boss you end up with the same number of cards in hand.

I suppose it depends on how you define "card advantage?" If "my cards are now better than they just were" is card advantage, then Brainstorm is the titties. (Hell it's the titties in any case. And I love titties!)

[joemauer]

Wait a minute! Brainstorm doesn't =card advantage? Just filtering? What is all the fuss about then?

Kids these days don't know how good they have it. Never been on the other side of a Necropotence after having your hand Mind Twisted. Spoiled! Spoiled I say! If it just filters cards, get over it.

[TheKingslayer]

Brainstorm- Welcome to Legacy, everybody.



On the subject of Mental Misstep again, the Meta has not fully adapted to its presence. I feel that the card does very healthy things for the format, as a whole, even if everyone is running it. It slows the format to a reasonable pace, keeps combo at bay, and allows control a chance to exist once more. I think Forsythe and goons have just been seeing the monster they created in Jace/Mystic standard popping up in Legacy tournaments. However, if you have witnessed their sad comments ( such as Lapille's suggestion of running Great Sable Stag), then you would be aware of their lack of awareness for the Legacy format. I don't think stoneblade will ever be as dominant in legacy as it was in Standard. The metagame has not been allowed reasonable time to adjust to the existence of such a card, and I would like to witness what it will become in the next year.

I guess we'll see on Monday...

[KobeBryan]

Technically Brainstorm doesn't offer card advantage at all. It's card quality when paired with a shuffle effect.

I'm gonna walk through this on my fingers: casting Brainstorm puts one card from your hand into your graveyard, three from you library into your hand, then two from your hand back on top. I'm not too good with numbers, but unless you're a boss you end up with the same number of cards in hand.

I suppose it depends on how you define "card advantage?" If "my cards are now better than they just were" is card advantage, then Brainstorm is the titties. (Hell it's the titties in any case. And I love titties!)

You're kidding right?

[r0ckstAr]

No one thinks maybe they will ban Jace and not misstep ?

Because it really is the most ridiculous card they printed since the Urza block madness (well, maybe there's skullclamp, maybe not), and, unlike misstep, it's really a pure blue card, that provides everything you can dream of for 2UU and is extremely difficult to kill unless you play red.

The blue control shell has always been very powerful, but this card gives it absolute control over late game (CA, getting rid of useless conditionnal answers, boucing threats, controlling opponent topdecks, a kill - omg, really ?) which it should not have (bs and vision help a lot, but are not as good as bob, or as topdecking only threats because it's all you have in your deck)

[KobeBryan]

No one thinks maybe they will ban Jace and not misstep ?

Because it really is the most ridiculous card they printed since the Urza block madness (well, maybe there's skullclamp, maybe not), and, unlike misstep, it's really a pure blue card, that provides everything you can dream of for 2UU and is extremely difficult to kill unless you play red.

The blue control shell has always been very powerful, but this card gives it absolute control over late game (CA, getting rid of useless conditionnal answers, boucing threats, controlling opponent topdecks, a kill - omg, really ?) which it should not have (bs and vision help a lot, but are not as good as bob, or as topdecking only threats because it's all you have in your deck)

Jace doesn't warp the format. Only like 2-3 decks run jace. Hardly enough for a ban.

Misstep should also not be banned.

[JustPAT4]

You're kidding right?

I'm afraid you're going to have to be more specific, sir. I assume that most of us picked up on the jocular tone of the post, but (assuming you're referring to my statements about Brainstorm and Card Advantage) I do in fact define card advantage as "netting additional cards in hand." When I have 5 cards in hand and cast Brainstorm, when it resolves I still have 5 cards in hand.

Perhaps your magic is stronger than mine. Perhaps we define card advantage differently and it would be helpful to agree upon a working definition. Perhaps your post actually had no constructive purpose whatsoever. Perhaps time will tell...

[KobeBryan]

I'm afraid you're going to have to be more specific, sir. I assume that most of us picked up on the jocular tone of the post, but (assuming you're referring to my statements about Brainstorm and Card Advantage) I do in fact define card advantage as "netting additional cards in hand." When I have 5 cards in hand and cast Brainstorm, when it resolves I still have 5 cards in hand.

Perhaps your magic is stronger than mine. Perhaps we define card advantage differently and it would be helpful to agree upon a working definition. Perhaps your post actually had no constructive purpose whatsoever. Perhaps time will tell...

The term card advantage means you have an advantage with the cards in your hand over your opponents. With a card that dig three deep, able to swap your junk from your hand ans shuffle it away, you don't think that is card advantage?

It certainly hell means card advantage to me, when you get to dump 3 cards with different ones.

Even bazaar of baghdad is card advantage...draw 2 discard 3.

If you think card advantage is only the ability to get more cards in your hand, you need to revise your definition in your book.

[TeenieBopper]

The term card advantage means you have an advantage with the cards in your hand over your opponents. With a card that dig three deep, able to swap your junk from your hand ans shuffle it away, you don't think that is card advantage?

It certainly hell means card advantage to me, when you get to dump 3 cards with different ones.

Then you would be wrong.


Even bazaar of baghdad is card advantage...draw 2 discard 3.



Keep it civil, Mike. - zilla

Might I suggest the Required Reading (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?609-Articles-Required-Reading) thread? Particularly this one (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/1126_Examining_The_Theories_Of_Card_Advantage_And_Quality.html)?

[CorpT]

If you think card advantage is only the ability to get more cards in your hand, you need to revise your definition in your book.

That's been the definition of card advantage for over a decade. I don't think you're going to get anyone to change it now just because you don't like it.

If you'd like to talk about card quality, that's a different story. And a different definition. If we don't have a common vocabulary to work from, this is going to be pretty pointless (pointlesser?).

[Wirrsturm]

@avatar of shadows

What you're describing is card quality not card advantage.

Classic card advantage is always about one of two things.
1) Just straight having more cards either by trading 1 for 2 or by drawing extra cards
2) Virtual card advantage, for example running no creatures so all the creature removal spells in your opponents hand are dead cards.

BEHOLD THE POWER OF CITATION:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/60
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_advantage

Edit:
Pff took too long rereading that old wizards article >.>

[Julian23]

I think Avatar of Shadow's post misses the difference between the established terms "Card Advantage", "Virtual Card Advantage", "Card Quality / Card Selection". Calling someone out for not sticking to your interpretation of what these terms mean in competitive gaming doesn't help it.

We get what you mean, but you're at best talking about Virtual CA, surely not pure CA. Although it's neither of those but just Card Disadvantage+Card Selection.

[JustPAT4]

The term card advantage means you have an advantage with the cards in your hand over your opponents. With a card that dig three deep, able to swap your junk from your hand ans shuffle it away, you don't think that is card advantage?

It certainly hell means card advantage to me, when you get to dump 3 cards with different ones.

Even bazaar of baghdad is card advantage...draw 2 discard 3.

If you think card advantage is only the ability to get more cards in your hand, you need to revise your definition in your book.

I'm not sure where you got that definition from, but if that's how you define CA, then undeniably Brainstorm fits the bill.

However, here's the classic, traditionally agreed upon example: Ancestral Recall is said to have +2 CA, its caster gains 3 cards while losing Recall itself. Therefore, Brainstorm has +0 CA.

Considering that this is the way Card Advantage has been understood since Beta, I think that you ought to be more measured in your criticism of well established ideas.

And don't be absurd about Bazaar of Baghdad. Draw 2 discard 3 is -1 CA. You're talking about something entirely different.

If you think card advantage is otherwise, you need to read the book.

[kiblast]

There is this concept called card quality. Brainstorm provides better cards. Not more cards. Just better ones in relation to the gamestate.

[JustPAT4]

There is this concept called card quality. Brainstorm provides better cards. Not more cards. Just better ones in relation to the gamestate.


Which is what I was trying to establish in order to create a working vocabulary going ahead before I was treated like an idiotic child for doing so.

Card Quality/Selection is what Brainstorm does better than any other card in the format.

I'm of the opinion that Brainstorm is the strongest card still legal in legacy for this reason. And I'm of the opinion that the best way to answer the aforementioned strongest card in legacy is Mental Misstep. I wouldn't see either banned. And if you're afraid of Brainstorm, you certainly don't want Misstep banned. Well I don't anyway.

My work here is done. I have contributed nothing but another hopeful tear into the endless ocean of unsubstantiated legacy speculation.

Cheers all.

[GGoober]

I'm calling this, if Brainstorm is indeed banned or has the potential on going to the banlist, I would just want everyone to start thinking about how many Sensei's Top would be played in replacement to Brainstorm. Sure it's no Brainstorm because for that one crucial turn it is in fact card disadvantage, however, it will be as close to functioning as Brainstorm (it even fights discard well when you can always ensure that you draw the card to play on your turn so discard can never molest your hand).

I would just want everyone to look at the poll for this thread, and remember that Top was a huge whine back in the day. If Brainstorm is banned, Top will definitely see more play, if not more because it's available in all colors. Top is already underplayed because of MM in the format. Brainstorm isn't, because the decks playing Brainstorm so happens to play MM. If people still feel Brainstorm is the issue, then I have nothing to say, it's your opinion. But banning Brainstorm doesn't solve anything. Blue will be fairly neutered, but Top is available as an alternative (I personally enjoy 2-3 Tops in control anyway even if not palying Countertop). And blue will still have MM, and we will end up whining about Top and MM all over again, except that a big portion of Legacy players might quit Legacy over the rage if Brainstorm is banned (not because they have a bromance with Brainstorm, but Brainstorm has been always around for years and is powerful, but still a fair card).

If you can knock an argument for banning Brainstorm, you can knock an argument for Ponder, Top, Ancestral Visions (trust me, you will be able to because it's the same fucking argument for any of these cards, which was the big frustration on the restriction of BOTH Brainstorm and Ponder which many Vintage vets agreed or disagreed upon even up to today).

All I'm hoping WotC isn't a n00b. I personally would like seeing MM go, but I would like to see more unbannings even if MM is still around if they decide to ban MM.

Something tells me that B&R might ban brainstorm over Mental Misstep because Brainstorm is actually relevant against Great Sable Stag when digging up that lightning bolt whereas MM does nothing in their online testing sessions.

[dahcmai]

Sooooo, $10 says that Land Tax stays on the list despite the silliness of it.

[KobeBryan]

I really want to see an unban of mind twist. It really wouldn't do anything in this format anyways.

[(nameless one)]

Sooooo, $10 says that Land Tax stays on the list despite the silliness of it.

It's funny because we've all been speculating about Land Tax leaving that list since 2008 yet it has yet to happen.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sooooo, $10 says that Land Tax stays on the list despite the silliness of it.

God I wish they would unban it this time. I just picked up 3 Legends ones in NM condition for $12 each as store credit and I would love to ship them at double that and never have to look at them again.

[Malchar]

Sensei's Divining Top is what I voted for at the time of the poll, and it's still the only card that I think should be banned, if any. It's like a reusable brainstorm in any color, and it protects itself. Plus, it's a huge time-waster, and it can basically go in any deck archetype, since everyone likes having card selection. It's also stupidly good with counterbalance (back at the time of the poll) or fetchlands. Now that mental misstep has become popular, I think that it serves as an adequate answer to sensei top, which previously required a force of will to stop if cast on the play. If anything, more "threats" should be unbanned, namely black vise or land tax, since mental misstep seems to supply an overabundance of "answers".

[Lemnear]

No one thinks maybe they will ban Jace and not misstep ?

Because it really is the most ridiculous card they printed since the Urza block madness (well, maybe there's skullclamp, maybe not), and, unlike misstep, it's really a pure blue card, that provides everything you can dream of for 2UU and is extremely difficult to kill

Wow! Ignoring Crucible of Worlds, Trinishpere, Aether vial, Gush, Bob, Gifts ungiven, Storm cards, T4K, counterbalance, Top, Jitte, nacatl, knight of the reliquary, standstill and dozens of meta defining cards more make this post a complete joke

[Lemnear]

I'm calling this, if Brainstorm is indeed banned or has the potential on going to the banlist, I would just want everyone to start thinking about how many Sensei's Top would be played in replacement to Brainstorm. Sure it's no Brainstorm because for that one crucial turn it is in fact card disadvantage, however, it will be as close to functioning as Brainstorm (it even fights discard well when you can always ensure that you draw the card to play on your turn so discard can never molest your hand).

I would just want everyone to look at the poll for this thread, and remember that Top was a huge whine back in the day. If Brainstorm is banned, Top will definitely see more play, if not more because it's available in all colors. Top is already underplayed because of MM in the format. Brainstorm isn't, because the decks playing Brainstorm so happens to play MM. If people still feel Brainstorm is the issue, then I have nothing to say, it's your opinion. But banning Brainstorm doesn't solve anything. Blue will be fairly neutered, but Top is available as an alternative (I personally enjoy 2-3 Tops in control anyway even if not palying Countertop). And blue will still have MM, and we will end up whining about Top and MM all over again, except that a big portion of Legacy players might quit Legacy over the rage if Brainstorm is banned (not because they have a bromance with Brainstorm, but Brainstorm has been always around for years and is powerful, but still a fair card).

If you can knock an argument for banning Brainstorm, you can knock an argument for Ponder, Top, Ancestral Visions (trust me, you will be able to because it's the same fucking argument for any of these cards, which was the big frustration on the restriction of BOTH Brainstorm and Ponder which many Vintage vets agreed or disagreed upon even up to today).

All I'm hoping WotC isn't a n00b. I personally would like seeing MM go, but I would like to see more unbannings even if MM is still around if they decide to ban MM.

Something tells me that B&R might ban brainstorm over Mental Misstep because Brainstorm is actually relevant against Great Sable Stag when digging up that lightning bolt whereas MM does nothing in their online testing sessions.

+1 my fellow TMD friend

[death]

I think banning Brainstorm will create chaos, I imagine non-blue combo decks running rampant and U/x control being ill-equipped and unable to catch-up.
The meta was fine before Mental Misstep, Jace TMS is fine and is not worth banning. Brainstorm + Force of Will is what keeps the format in check.

If there will be changes I predict it will either be MM or Stoneforge or both axed.

Earthcraft is about time to get unbanned, but not Land Tax and not Black Vise.

[Gheizen64]

I'm calling this, if Brainstorm is indeed banned or has the potential on going to the banlist, I would just want everyone to start thinking about how many Sensei's Top would be played in replacement to Brainstorm. Sure it's no Brainstorm because for that one crucial turn it is in fact card disadvantage, however, it will be as close to functioning as Brainstorm (it even fights discard well when you can always ensure that you draw the card to play on your turn so discard can never molest your hand).

I would just want everyone to look at the poll for this thread, and remember that Top was a huge whine back in the day. If Brainstorm is banned, Top will definitely see more play, if not more because it's available in all colors. Top is already underplayed because of MM in the format. Brainstorm isn't, because the decks playing Brainstorm so happens to play MM. If people still feel Brainstorm is the issue, then I have nothing to say, it's your opinion. But banning Brainstorm doesn't solve anything. Blue will be fairly neutered, but Top is available as an alternative (I personally enjoy 2-3 Tops in control anyway even if not palying Countertop). And blue will still have MM, and we will end up whining about Top and MM all over again, except that a big portion of Legacy players might quit Legacy over the rage if Brainstorm is banned (not because they have a bromance with Brainstorm, but Brainstorm has been always around for years and is powerful, but still a fair card).

If you can knock an argument for banning Brainstorm, you can knock an argument for Ponder, Top, Ancestral Visions (trust me, you will be able to because it's the same fucking argument for any of these cards, which was the big frustration on the restriction of BOTH Brainstorm and Ponder which many Vintage vets agreed or disagreed upon even up to today).

All I'm hoping WotC isn't a n00b. I personally would like seeing MM go, but I would like to see more unbannings even if MM is still around if they decide to ban MM.

Something tells me that B&R might ban brainstorm over Mental Misstep because Brainstorm is actually relevant against Great Sable Stag when digging up that lightning bolt whereas MM does nothing in their online testing sessions.

The fact top isn't played in non-blue decks when everyone could do so says a lot about that card's power. Top was actually almost never played outside of countertop even when it was considered for this poll. It could see some more play with brainstorm banned, but i suspect most blue decks will prefer Preordain or Opt and other library manipulation before top.

I find funny you pre-emptively complain about a card that's already legal and see no play saying that banning Brainstorm would make it ubiquitous. Wouldn't that be a point more for banning Brainstorm? I mean, the card is so good is preventing a potentially ubiquitous card from being played. Except it's not since even decks that can't play brainstorm don't play Top.

The argument about banning Brainstorm isn't the same as the argument of banning Ponder or Top or anything. If you had followed the debate, you would have known 1 million people already said this before you. The argument is that Brainstorm power level is the problem, not what it do. Because if blue's dominance is a problem, then the culprit is Brainstorm much more than MM. Still, people are hating on MM.
Ponder and Top aren't comparable to BS even if they do similar things.

Finally, your point about "it has been played for years so it's fair" it's a non-argument. Can we get non-rational arguments out of here? Oath was legal for years in extended, this doesn't mean Oath was fair. If a format is completely dominated by blue, you still say "blue has dominated for years so it's fair"? Please.

[swoop]

Tolarian Academy is safe.

please?

[DragoFireheart]

If the argument for banning Brainstorm is it's power level, then that same argument applies to JTMS, Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Stoneforge Mystic, Force of Will, Lion's Eye Diamond, Show and Tell, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, TriniSphere, and pretty much every other card that's considered a staple in the format. Once we start the precedent that a card can be banned because it's power level is somewhat higher than others, then people can whine about a card and get it banned because they don't like it's power level.

MMS is a potent card and caused a shift in the format but it's level of power in regards to negatively skewing the format is no where near that of Survival of the Fittest. Brainstorm is also a powerful card, but doesn't cause a negative effect on the format like MT did with Reanimator/Storm decks. If either gets banned, then any card can get banned for idiotic reasons until everyone is using aggro decks and Legacy turns into a bastard child of Standard.

If your issue is with Blade control and No RUG, banning Natural Order (a tutor) or maybe even Stoneforge Mystic (another tutor that can drop equipment that can't be countered) would be better choices. If you look at the ban list, WotC does not like tutors and rightly so. NO and SFM are both tutors that can drop powerful creatures for a relatively cheap cost compared to their actual cost. MMS and Brainstorm wouldn't seem so powerful if the other player couldn't get a 10/10 with protection from everythin by paying 2GG and sacrificing a green creature. And guess what: banning MMS or brainstorm isn't going to make those decks go away. They MIGHT get slightly weaker, but they'll still be using batterskuls and Progentius against you.

[Gheizen64]

If the argument for banning Brainstorm is it's power level, then that same argument applies to JTMS, Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Stoneforge Mystic, Force of Will, Lion's Eye Diamond, Show and Tell, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, TriniSphere, and pretty much every other card that's considered a staple in the format. Once we start the precedent that a card can be banned because it's power level is somewhat higher than others, then people can whine about a card and get it banned because they don't like it's power level.

MMS is a potent card and caused a shift in the format but it's level of power in regards to negatively skewing the format is no where near that of Survival of the Fittest. Brainstorm is also a powerful card, but doesn't cause a negative effect on the format like MT did with Reanimator/Storm decks. If either gets banned, then any card can get banned for idiotic reasons until everyone is using aggro decks and Legacy turns into a bastard child of Standard.

If your issue is with Blade control and No RUG, banning Natural Order (a tutor) or maybe even Stoneforge Mystic (another tutor that can drop equipment that can't be countered) would be better choices. If you look at the ban list, WotC does not like tutors and rightly so. NO and SFM are both tutors that can drop powerful creatures for a relatively cheap cost compared to their actual cost. MMS and Brainstorm wouldn't seem so powerful if the other player couldn't get a 10/10 with protection from everythin by paying 2GG and sacrificing a green creature. And guess what: banning MMS or brainstorm isn't going to make those decks go away. They MIGHT get slightly weaker, but they'll still be using batterskuls and Progentius against you.

Look like you haven't followed the discussion here.
None of the card you listed have the same effect on the blue predominance BS has. Also i don't see how nonblue cards are relevant here because nonblue decks aren't dominating anything and we've been speaking about BS only as the main culprit of blue dominance. JTMS could be considered overpowered, but it's one-shotted by Goyf and most creature in this format, making it considerably more fair compared to other formats. Also it isn't played by a lot of blue decks, combo decks with blue doesn't play it, more aggressive blue decks doesn't play it either (NoRUG and Merfolk). To address the other blue cards in the list, SnT is certainly powerful but pretty situational and not the reason blue is overplayed for sure since it's seen only in 1-2 combo decks. Force of Will and Mental Misstep are answer cards. Misstep is also played in decks that doesn't even splash islands, so it can't be considered "blue".



Tolarian Academy is safe.

please?

Tolarian academy is better than island, thus broken.

[DragoFireheart]

Look like you haven't followed the discussion here.
None of the card you listed have the same effect on the blue predominance BS has. Also i don't see how nonblue cards are relevant here because nonblue decks aren't dominating anything and we've been speaking about BS only as the main culprit of blue dominance. JTMS could be considered overpowered, but it's one-shotted by Goyf and most creature in this format, making it considerably more fair compared to other formats. Also it isn't played by a lot of blue decks, combo decks with blue doesn't play it, more aggressive blue decks doesn't play it either (NoRUG and Merfolk). To address the other blue cards in the list, SnT is certainly powerful but pretty situational and not the reason blue is overplayed for sure since it's seen only in 1-2 combo decks. Force of Will and Mental Misstep are answer cards. Misstep is also played in decks that doesn't even splash islands, so it can't be considered "blue".


Blue predominance?

Show me a deck list that only uses blue cards that topped 50% of the topic 8 in the last four months. Go on, do it. Oh wait, so Blue predominance was just evidence that you are being intellecutally dishonest? What you mean to say is "U/x" predominance. Because that is what this comes down to: multi-colored blue decks that splash for other things. It just so happens that Brainstorm is blue by design and is a good card. Yes, I have been following the discussion and I have yet to see a single argument to prove that brainstorm is "ban worthy". It's restricted in Vintage because of the sheer power of OTHER cards it can find.

Seeing a pattern here?

Your issue is not with brainstorm but the cards brainstorm is able to filter. Tell me, does brainstorm kill you, or is it the Batterskull/Progenitus that kills you? And what cards tutors those? And what style of cards has Wizards almost always banned? Tutors?

[Rizso]

Dont forget that force of will forces blue players to play thoes 50% blue card decks.

[Lemnear]

Dont forget that force of will forces blue players to play thoes 50% blue card decks.

That's plain incorrect. Statistically 18 cards including 4 Force of Wills are enough to run it without having a problem to have pitch-able cards in hand. Some Decks in vintage even try 16 but I am a fan of running 20. That's 1/3 of a deck at a Maximum.

[Julian23]

To be fair, that's a question of definition. In fact you could very reasonably argue, that 20 blue cards are in fact 50% of a deck as decks usually only run about 40 colored cards alltogether. According to Lemenar's definition, no deck would run 100% of a given color thus rendering comparison based on it rather useless.

[Rizso]

What Julian said!

20 out of 40 playables. But sure if including lands about 30% - 1/3 of the deck as blue. Like average vision stoneblade runs ~41% blue cards, 13% white, 5% artfifact then rest is lands.

Colored cards arent gonna take the lands spots anyway unless you play combo.

[Lemnear]

You said "50% of a blue card deck" so I guess I wasn't wrong. Moreover we can't seriously discuss about "blue card decks" without talking about formats and metagames. I remember times threadhold ran 18 lands and todays landstills sometime 25. I don't even want to talk about Vintage and artifact mana (Vintage TPS has ~40% manasources out of their 60 what does affect FoW's playability).

If you want to talk about non-managenerating-cards it's a completely different topic and shouldn't be handled with generalisation that was thrown to my forhead 2 pages ago.

[joemauer]

If your issue is with Blade control and No RUG, banning Natural Order (a tutor) or maybe even Stoneforge Mystic (another tutor that can drop equipment that can't be countered) would be better choices. If you look at the ban list, WotC does not like tutors and rightly so. NO and SFM are both tutors that can drop powerful creatures for a relatively cheap cost compared to their actual cost. MMS and Brainstorm wouldn't seem so powerful if the other player couldn't get a 10/10 with protection from everythin by paying 2GG and sacrificing a green creature. And guess what: banning MMS or brainstorm isn't going to make those decks go away. They MIGHT get slightly weaker, but they'll still be using batterskuls and Progentius against you.

I think you sir might be on to something. Wizards does hate tutors and both are forms of tutors. SFM could be the new card they regretted making? But you can't really ban SFM and not ban NO. Then if NO is getting the axe why not show and tell? Similar brokeness, but show and tell isn't a one card combo like SFM or NO. Also why not ban ALL tutors like entomb, enlighten, or worldy? Never understood why mystical got the axe only. Perhaps mystical tutor can get a card that the other two can't get? Then you got to wonder is there some instant/sorcery in Legacy that is too powerful, but getting rid of the card finds instant/sorcery was an easier fix? Gotta wonder why WoTC does what it does some times.

[Rizso]

Ye, it did go a bit off topic. But still blue dominance still comes from Force of Will. Want to play all the best cards, Force, swords, some killing condiction or some engine etc. Force you need to have enought blue cards. So even if mental misstep does get banned, Force of will will keep decks playing with blue cards.

Banning Misstep wont change anything about the % of blue decks in the format but it will reduce a huge number of midrange decks as combo and then Counterbalance will claw their hands back into the format.

Blue Dominance will continue until a really punishing card against blue that blue cant play themself or if large amount of blue powerhouses gets banned force, brainstorm and others. But doubt we want an other modern format where combo decks are the dominant force.

Mystical tutor got banned cos of ANT and Reanimate. The tutor hated out hate. Bringing in gy hate against reanimate? NP, just tutor for SNT and go from their instead. Got that hatebear against ant ? np just tutor for that cheap 1 of bounce or 1 of slaughter pact. They could run their boad as 1 of cos the tutor made them able to have 15 diffrent board cards. Not only did the tutor have a huge board plan it worked wonders in the deck as well.

Over the history of magic wizard hasnt liked tutors at all except for tutors that affects only creatures. The green tutor was never restricted or banned, white one got unresitricted for a very long time ago. The most powerful spells in magic history are the instants, sorceries and artifacts. Mystical Tutor takes finds 2 of them. Only creature tutors they really got to ban in mulitple formats are Survival of the Fittest and Oath of Druids. They are even printing more creature tutors inform of Green Sun's Zenith. As powerful as Stoneforge is it still searchs for a narrow card type that also affect creatures.

[DragoFireheart]

But still blue dominance still comes from Force of Will. Want to play all the best cards, Force, swords, some killing condiction or some engine etc. Force you need to have enought blue cards. So even if mental misstep does get banned, Force of will will keep decks playing with blue cards.

- Wait, I thought brainstorm was the reason? Make up your mind please.



Banning Misstep wont change anything about the % of blue decks in the format but it will reduce a huge number of midrange decks as combo and then Counterbalance will claw their hands back into the format.


- You got something finally.



Blue Dominance will continue...

- Show me a blue deck that use FoW, Brainstorm, MMS, and only islands as lands that is topping the top 8 in 50% of the field. You won't find it.

Stop it with the intellectual dishonesty. 100% pure blue decks are not rampaig the format. Multicolored decks are the issue because they have dual lands to allow them to choose the best cards from ALL colors. It just so happens that blue has lots of good control cards, be it counters or drawing/filteration. However, BLUE won't do shit without the other colors. If you decide (as you admitted) to cripple blue, combo decks will utterly destroy the format. The solution to tone down control decks has always been to tone down combo decks and boost up aggro decks. GW/x Maverick, The Rock, and Zoo are three viable Tier 1 decks that either use no blue at all or very little. You also acknowledge that more mid-range decks are coming about.

People need to stop complaining and observe the meta. Blade control and No RUG? Make aggro decks or mid-range decks to fight them. Christ, BURN decks do fairly well and would be an amazing choice because:

A- Combo is gone so doesn't have to worry about combo out-racing it.

B- Counterbalance is gone so it doesn't have to worry about counterbalance pushing it out.

Instead, all I see is many articles/people complaining because they saw if they complain hard enough, they can get cards they don't like banned. And it's a shitty precedent to set.

[CorpT]

- Show me a blue deck that use FoW, Brainstorm, MMS, and only islands as lands that is topping the top 8 in 50% of the field. You won't find it.

Strawman much?

No one is complaining that mono-blue decks are dominating. People are complaining that 80% of the Top 16 decks at SCG events since 5/22 contain blue. That's a fact.

[DragoFireheart]

Strawman much?

- I keep hearing about "blue dominance". Hence the NON-strawman question.



No one is complaining that mono-blue decks are dominating. People are complaining that 80% of the Top 16 decks at SCG events since 5/22 contain blue. That's a fact.

I also bet 80% contain white or green as well. Does that mean green and white are dominate?

[Rizso]

- Wait, I thought brainstorm was the reason? Make up your mind please.



- You got something finally.



- Show me a blue deck that use FoW, Brainstorm, MMS, and only islands as lands that is topping the top 8 in 50% of the field. You won't find it.

Stop it with the intellectual dishonesty. 100% pure blue decks are not rampaig the format. Multicolored decks are the issue because they have dual lands to allow them to choose the best cards from ALL colors. It just so happens that blue has lots of good control cards, be it counters or drawing/filteration. However, BLUE won't do shit without the other colors. If you decide (as you admitted) to cripple blue, combo decks will utterly destroy the format. The solution to tone down control decks has always been to tone down combo decks and boost up aggro decks. GW/x Maverick, The Rock, and Zoo are three viable Tier 1 decks that either use no blue at all or very little. You also acknowledge that more mid-range decks are coming about.

People need to stop complaining and observe the meta. Blade control and No RUG? Make aggro decks or mid-range decks to fight them. Christ, BURN decks do fairly well and would be an amazing choice because:

A- Combo is gone so doesn't have to worry about combo out-racing it.

B- Counterbalance is gone so it doesn't have to worry about counterbalance pushing it out.

Instead, all I see is many articles/people complaining because they saw if they complain hard enough, they can get cards they don't like banned. And it's a shitty precedent to set.

I thought I was pretty clear I meant multicolored decks. As in blue dominance as in decks that are majority blue. I much rather face Stoneblade, NO-rug, GW-maverick and other great decks in the current format all day then old decks as mystical tutor ANT / Reanimate or thoes long games against counterbalance decks.

Still remember one time against one of thoes old mystical-ant when playing eva green. He starts game 1, he goes of turn 1, game 2 I rip his hand in to pieces, game 3 he goes of turn 1 again. Fun format.

[Gheizen64]

Blue predominance?

Show me a deck list that only uses blue cards that topped 50% of the topic 8 in the last four months. Go on, do it. Oh wait, so Blue predominance was just evidence that you are being intellecutally dishonest? What you mean to say is "U/x" predominance. Because that is what this comes down to: multi-colored blue decks that splash for other things. It just so happens that Brainstorm is blue by design and is a good card. Yes, I have been following the discussion and I have yet to see a single argument to prove that brainstorm is "ban worthy". It's restricted in Vintage because of the sheer power of OTHER cards it can find.

Seeing a pattern here?

Your issue is not with brainstorm but the cards brainstorm is able to filter. Tell me, does brainstorm kill you, or is it the Batterskull/Progenitus that kills you? And what cards tutors those? And what style of cards has Wizards almost always banned? Tutors?

Your arguments are all strawmen. Card quality/virtual card advantage can easily be too strong, also no one said anything about monoblue, just blue % is usually around 75 against the 50% of others color and 30-40% of red. My issue isn't brainstorm, my "issue", if you can call it so since i'm not having a problem with it, just stating facts, is blue dominating legacy and if we want to do something about it banning MM wouldn't achieve anything, banning brainstorm would give more space to other colors, especially black.

This whole discussion has been already done to death already, i'm tired to respond to people that doesn't care to read and enter and summarize everything perfectly like they are Pelè or Maradona.

EDIT: since it look like you didn't notice (the thread has been going extremely fast, after all) the color % posted some pages ago, i'll paste them here again:

Top16 from SGC events:

05-22-11 (MM printed) - Present

White: 119
Green: 124
Red: 92
Blue: 187
Black: 109

White: 51%
Green: 53%
Red: 39%
Blue: 80%
Black: 46%

Going back we find similar numbers, categorizing by years we find:

2011:
White: 50%
Green: 55%
Red: 37%
Blue: 75%
Black: 46%

2010:
White: 56%
Green: 62%
Red: 36%
Blue: 67%
Black: 43%

I've skipped 2009 numbers because the sample was extremely low. Looking here we find what was an already obvious fact: blue is overrepresented, green and white are around 50% each and black and red get the low end of the shaft.

[CorpT]

- I keep hearing about "blue dominance". Hence the NON-strawman question.



I also bet 80% contain white or green as well. Does that mean green and white are dominate?

You should read the thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation.&p=585740&viewfull=1#post585740) before posting:

05-22-11 - Present

White: 119
Green: 124
Red: 92
Blue: 187
Black: 109

White: 51%
Green: 53%
Red: 39%
Blue: 80%
Black: 46%

Sorry, what were you saying about Blue not dominating? And no, your definition of blue dominance meaning that only blue is in the deck is not shared by many, nor is it what we're discussing.

[DragoFireheart]

Your arguments are all strawmen. Card quality/virtual card advantage can easily be too strong, also no one said anything about monoblue, just blue % is usually around 75 against the 50% of others color and 30-40% of red. My issue isn't brainstorm, my "issue", if you can call it so since i'm not having a problem with it, just stating facts, is blue dominating legacy and if we want to do something about it banning MM wouldn't achieve anything, banning brainstorm would give more space to other colors, especially black.

- Banning brainstorm would alienate blue players/control players. You and I know this. It would be akin to banning Lightning Bolt.



EDIT: since it look like you didn't notice (the thread has been going extremely fast, after all) the color % posted some pages ago, i'll paste them here again:

Top16 from SGC events:

05-22-11 (MM printed) - Present

White: 119
Green: 124
Red: 92
Blue: 187
Black: 109

White: 51%
Green: 53%
Red: 39%
Blue: 80%
Black: 46%

Going back we find similar numbers, categorizing by years we find:

2011:
White: 50%
Green: 55%
Red: 37%
Blue: 75%
Black: 46%

2010:
White: 56%
Green: 62%
Red: 36%
Blue: 67%
Black: 43%

I've skipped 2009 numbers because the sample was extremely low. Looking here we find what was an already obvious fact: blue is overrepresented, green and white are around 50% each and black and red get the low end of the shaft.

- Merfolk also have an impact on those % since they weren't around always. Blue is simply a popular color: it's "dominance" has little to do with it being overpowered.




You should read the thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation.&p=585740&viewfull=1#post585740) before posting:

05-22-11 - Present

White: 119
Green: 124
Red: 92
Blue: 187
Black: 109

White: 51%
Green: 53%
Red: 39%
Blue: 80%
Black: 46%

Sorry, what were you saying about Blue not dominating? And no, your definition of blue dominance meaning that only blue is in the deck is not shared by many, nor is it what we're discussing.

I'm pretty sure you mean multi-color dominance, not blue dominance. The term "blue dominance" is purposely factious.

And what exactly are you showing by showing to me that blue makes up a higher % of the meta? Blue has always made up a large % of the meta. This isn't any different than before MMS, pre-SotF banning, or pre-printing of Tarmogoyf. You'll have to show me that blue being popular is a bad thing.

[CorpT]

I'm pretty sure you mean multi-color dominance, not blue dominance. The term "blue dominance" is purposely factious.

Let me be very clear what I am saying:

Blue is found in more top placing decks than any other color. By a wide, and growing, margin. This has nothing to do with other colors, or mono-blue. Blue is found in more top placing decks than any other color. Dispute that. When I, and others say "blue dominance", that is what we mean. Your intentional obtuseness, does nothing to help a conversation.

[Gheizen64]

- Banning brainstorm would alienate blue players/control players. You and I know this. It would be akin to banning Lightning Bolt.

Except red sucks already while it looks like winning decks have to be blue nowadays, so banning Bolt would have no justification.



- Merfolk also have an impact on those % since they weren't around always. Blue is simply a popular color: it's "dominance" has little to do with it being overpowered.

So people win with blue because it's popular? Sorry i'll go with Occam's razor here. If a color/deck win more than others, then the deck/color is probably a tad stronger than the others. Simple.




I'm pretty sure you mean multi-color dominance, not blue dominance. The term "blue dominance" is purposely factious.

And what exactly are you showing by showing to me that blue makes up a higher % of the meta? Blue has always made up a large % of the meta. This isn't any different than before MMS, pre-SotF banning, or pre-printing of Tarmogoyf. You'll have to show me that blue being popular is a bad thing.

It strike me as pretty preposterous that you call this "factious". I mean, everyone in this thread intended this as "blue-dominance" and now you come and say we're all wrong? Could be, but since we're discussing purposedly invented in-game semantics at this point, what the majority use is correct.
Also to be more correct, blue doesn't simply take an higher % of the meta, winning blue decks do since what we're discussing are only T16, not all decks. Blue being popular isn't a bad thing per se. However the implications of a decreasing diversity due to such dominance is not appealing for a lot of players and have also always considered bad for formats. In the years it also look like blue % is just going up, never down, so it's not even a case of "wait for the format to adapt" anymore, the format adapted to blue and decided that the best way to adapt was to be even more blue.

[DragoFireheart]

Let me be very clear what I am saying:

Blue is found in more top placing decks than any other color. By a wide, and growing, margin. This has nothing to do with other colors, or mono-blue. Blue is found in more top placing decks than any other color. Dispute that. When I, and others say "blue dominance", that is what we mean. Your intentional obtuseness, does nothing to help a conversation.

Whatever, use whatever term you want. It's all semantics anyways.

What is the significance of blue being popular? By all means, show me that blue being a popular color is a bad thing. Show me that it's making the format "unpleasant" to play it. Show me that WoTC needs to ban blue cards, be it MMS, BS, FoW, or something else. I ask because I have yet to see an argument showing that blue needs to have some of it's core staples banned.

[DragoFireheart]

So people win with blue because it's popular? Sorry i'll go with Occam's razor here. If a color/deck win more than others, then the deck/color is probably a tad stronger than the others. Simple.

-It's not as simple as that, but good job simplying it to that point yet ignoring other factors.





It strike me as pretty preposterous that you call this "factious". I mean, everyone in this thread intended this as "blue-dominance" and now you come and say we're all wrong? Could be, but since we're discussing purposedly invented in-game semantics at this point, what the majority use is correct.

- There is so much wrong with that statement. lmao.



Also to be more correct, blue doesn't simply take an higher % of the meta, winning blue decks do since what we're discussing are only T16, not all decks. Blue being popular isn't a bad thing per se. However the implications of a decreasing diversity due to such dominance is not appealing for a lot of players and have also always considered bad for formats. In the years it also look like blue % is just going up, never down, so it's not even a case of "wait for the format to adapt" anymore, the format adapted to blue and decided that the best way to adapt was to be even more blue.

- Because The Rock, Zoo, and GW/x Maverick don't exist. Because The Rock didn't just enter the tier 1 sector because blue is becoming more popular. Nope, every must be playing blue!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Stop it with the intellectual dishonesty. 100% pure blue decks are not rampaig the format.

Mother fucker, you got irony all over my keyboard.

[DragoFireheart]

Mother fucker, you got irony all over my keyboard.

- When people scream "blue dominance" what the fuck should I think? Why aren't they screaming "blade/rug dominance"? (which is what they really mean)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

- When people scream "blue dominance" what the fuck should I think? Why aren't they screaming "blade/rug dominance"? (which is what they really mean)


You should think they mean decks with blue, because to think that they mean decks with blue only is to be a dishonest prat.

[Gheizen64]

- There is so much wrong with that statement. lmao.




No there's nothing wrong actually. If everyone use a vague term like "blue dominance" is referring to % of blue decks in top16 of tournaments, than you can't argue otherwise only because you don't like it. It's like arguing that meters are not 100 cm but rather 98. You can say it all you want but it's wrong. I see no reasons for your crusade against windmills. Can't you just admit you were wrong and move on? You thought we meant a thing, we meant another so you were mistaken, it happen. It's not the end of the world. Obstinacy doesn't help your position, humility do far more.




- Because The Rock, Zoo, and GW/x Maverick don't exist. Because The Rock didn't just enter the tier 1 sector because blue is becoming more popular. Nope, every must be playing blue!


Those decks obviously exist, but as you conveniently continue to ignore, are evidently less successful than the old non-blue decks like Goblin and the old Rock incarnations, or things like AggroLoam, Stompy/Stax variants and Suicide variants (which evolved to TA, a deck that splash blue).

[Rizso]

I dont want fow, brainstorm or Mental Misstep banned at all.

That rock and maverick in on decks to beat is a proof that MM nerfed combo and buffed midranged. The better midranged gets the worse force of will get. Seen much of forces going to the board instead as its not as good against the midrange decks.

[jrw1985]

I'd like Brainstorm banned. Let U have all the conditional counterspells in the world, just don't let them play an instant speed hand sculpter.

[DragoFireheart]

You should think they mean decks with blue, because to think that they mean decks with blue only is to be a dishonest prat.

- And most decks having blue is meaningless unless someone can show WHY it's bad. Dominance seems to suggest that other colors don't have a fair shot. Blue popularity would have been a better term but it's all semantics as I said. What they really mean is Blade Control/No RuG dominance. Blue dominance is arbitrary and doesn't focus on the actual issue (aka, the decks that are doing well). UW Landstill is a blue deck but sure as fuck isn't dominating anything. Spiral Tide has blue but isn't dominating anything.



No there's nothing wrong actually.

- So if everyone says 2+2= 5 but you, who's right?



Those decks obviously exist, but as you conveniently continue to ignore, are evidently less successful than the old non-blue decks like Goblin and the old Rock incarnations, or things like AggroLoam, Stompy/Stax variants and Suicide variants (which evolved to TA, a deck that splash blue).

- Because RUG/Blade control just recently came about. The meta would need time to adapt and allow powerful mid-range decks to keep them in check (blade control / No Rug). Harping on the issue of blue being dominate or popular is ignoring the actual decks that use them. What you mean to say is Blade Control / No RuG dominance, which is absolutely correct. However, banning cards is not the solution. More people seeing that mid-range decks exists and can fight the Blade/RUG decks and more people not being afraid to play them will result in the meta balancing out.

EDIT:


I dont want fow, brainstorm or Mental Misstep banned at all.

That rock and maverick in on decks to beat is a proof that MM nerfed combo and buffed midranged. The better midranged gets the worse force of will get. Seen much of forces going to the board instead as its not as good against the midrange decks.

Exactly. With combo decks pushed out, Mid-range decks can flourish. AND, those same decks can pack MMS, which allows them SOME chance against combo decks re-surging.

[Gheizen64]

- So if everyone says 2+2= 5 but you, who's right?

You seems extremely dense or just intentionally trolling, i hope the latter. We're talking about the meaning of a term that has actually no right definition, not about the truth of a logic proposition. Those two things have nothing in common.
A better comparison could have been something like:

- if everyone say the "Great Depression" is the one of the 1870/73 and you say it's the one of 1929, who's right?

In this case the others are (even if in the current world the great depression is usually the 1929 one). Great Depression isn't a logical proposition, is a term used to define something, and as such its "correct" definition is stated by its usage. However this isn't really analogue to our example, because this case here has a long history, whereas our has not, meaning the definition is still not rooted in the language and we can't research its meaning in any kind of hystorical sources.

[DragoFireheart]

You seems extremely dense or just intentionally trolling, i hope the latter. We're talking about the meaning of a term that has actually no right definition, not a logic proposition. You're comparing apples to oranges.

- Finally, thank you. Now, I'll drop it if you want. Well?

[Gheizen64]

- Finally, thank you. Now, I'll drop it if you want. Well?

Well what? You argued that we were using the terms wrong in our definition, while actually since everyone except you understood what we were meaning, then it's just you that were wrong.

This is somewhat grotesque.

[CorpT]

- Finally, thank you. Now, I'll drop it if you want. Well?

You should quit while you're as far behind as you are.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

First of all, no, it's not only those two decks.

Second of all if the number of decks running red and the number of decks running black is 30%, and the numbers of decks running white and the number of decks running green is 60%, and the number of decks running blue is 90%, then everyone but you seems to think we can have an intelligent discussion about how blue is incredibly dominant, and no one is confused by what is meant by that. Your confusion confuses me.

[DragoFireheart]

Well what? You argued that we were using the terms wrong in our definition, while actually since everyone except you understood what we were meaning, then it's just you that were wrong.

- I never said the term was wrong. Factious, misleading, yes.


First of all, no, it's not only those two decks.

- Blade Control and No RuG are the current decks that are doing extremely well. Is that wrong?



Second of all if the number of decks running red and the number of decks running black is 30%, and the numbers of decks running white and the number of decks running green is 60%, and the number of decks running blue is 90%, then everyone but you seems to think we can have an intelligent discussion about how blue is incredibly dominant, and no one is confused by what is meant by that. Your confusion confuses me.

- I don't give a crap about color %. Blue dominance is a meaningless phrase. Blade Control / NO RUG dominance is a more meaningful discussion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You seem to have been the only one mislead. Everyone else seems to have taken blue's dominance as a given. We could all change our communication styles to suit you, or you could recognize the common use of the term that seems to exist.

[DragoFireheart]

You seem to have been the only one mislead. Everyone else seems to have taken blue's dominance as a given. We could all change our communication styles to suit you, or you could recognize the common use of the term that seems to exist.

- Fine, I don't care then. Use whatever term you want, but stop pretending that blue being a popular color means anything.

Edit: I have in fact asked twice why blue being a popular/dominate color means anything. I still wait.


First of all, no, it's not only those two decks.


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5460-DTBF-Philosophy-amp-Deck-Selection/page2


The cutoff falls at 71.26 points, giving us the following DTB:

* RUG Order
* Blade Control
* Merfolks
* Zoo
* Team America
* Maverick
* Reanimator
* The Rock

- Alright, so Merfolk as well for the top 3. Thoughts?

[Gheizen64]

- Fine, I don't care then. Use whatever term you want, but stop pretending that blue being a popular color means anything.

Edit: I have in fact asked twice why blue being a popular/dominate color means anything. I still wait.

Seems like you're a pretty distract reader. I'll copy my answer from some posts above:


Also to be more correct, blue doesn't simply take an higher % of the meta, winning blue decks do since what we're discussing are only T16, not all decks. Blue being popular isn't a bad thing per se. However the implications of a decreasing diversity due to such dominance is not appealing for a lot of players and have also always considered bad for formats. In the years it also look like blue % is just going up, never down, so it's not even a case of "wait for the format to adapt" anymore, the format adapted to blue and decided that the best way to adapt was to be even more blue.

This isn't a clear-cut case like Necro Summer or anything, because the culprit for blue's dominance isn't as clear as the culprit for most combo is. Still, some people argued that the culprit is MM, i and other argued that the culprit is most probably brainstorm.

Also penis penis penis penis penis penis. This is only a test to see if you actually read my post.

[DragoFireheart]

Seems like you're a pretty distract reader. I'll copy my answer from some posts above:

- I did read your response.



This isn't a clear-cut case like Necro Summer or anything, because the culprit for blue's dominance isn't as clear as the culprit for most combo is. Still, some people argued that the culprit is MM, i and other argued that the culprit is most probably brainstorm.


- Now explain why Brainstorm is the culprit for blue being dominating and not just a fun card that people like. Considering that Merfolk don't use it, it's clearly not as all powerful as some seem to be claiming.

[joemauer]

- Fine, I don't care then. Use whatever term you want, but stop pretending that blue being a popular color means anything.

Edit: I have in fact asked twice why blue being a popular/dominate color means anything. I still wait.



Blue being dominate makes the format stale. Duh.

Why have 5 colors if only one is going to get played, it goes against the nature of the game.

[DragoFireheart]

Blue being dominate makes the format stale. Duh.


Why have 5 colors if only one is going to get played, it goes against the nature of the game.

- Are all the other colors not used? Isn't it unrealistic to expect all the colors to be in perfect proportions?

[Zilla]

Now explain why Brainstorm is the culprit for blue being dominating and not just a fun card that people like. Considering that Merfolk don't use it, it's clearly not as all powerful as some seem to be claiming.
Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need for card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's popular for the same reason that Google is popular. Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.

As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action needs to be taken. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

[JustPAT4]

Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need for card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's popular for the same reason that Google is popular. Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.

As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action needs to be taken. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

:eek: I think I'm in love. +1

[DragoFireheart]

Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's "popular" for the same reason that Google is "popular." Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.


- Thank you for that Zilla. However, I disagree that brainstorm alone is the reason play blue. Force of Will along with Brainstorm along with the other counters, Jace, and other blue specific cards are what draw players to blue. Also, players don't like to lose instantly to combo. Blue is the best color to push out combo decks. As far as I see it, people would rather play blue and lose to aggro decks rather than play aggro decks and lose to combo.

I also disagree that other colors are getting weaker. Other colors may see less representation, but the power of non-blue cards like Tarmogoyf, STP, Wild Nacatal, Dark Confidant, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Grim Lavamancer, and others still hold relevance. It's just that more decks are turning into U/x/x aggro-control decks. Team America, Blade Control, and No RuG are all examples of this trend. Players splashing blue can play a aggro deck that doesn't lose instantly to combo.



As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action is necessary. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

- I agree with this completely.



It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

- I agree with this as well. Brainstorm is easily the best blue card if not the best card in Legacy.

[joemauer]

- Are all the other colors not used? Isn't it unrealistic to expect all the colors to be in perfect proportions?

I was just answering your question, I never said blue is dominate or that no other colors are being played.

@everyone else: Please stop crying "ban brainstorm". Cards such as brainstorm and force of will are the basis of the format. The only reason brainstorm is played so much right now isn't because it is the best card, it is because it is a very solid card the most popular color right now. Not many blue decks forgo brainstorm for the very same reason mono color decks(except combo) don't forgo wasteland. It just fits very well in the deck. It doesn't cause the deck to dominate. If you hate cards like brainstorm, FoW, or wasteland go play Modern or Standard, but please stop whinning that these cards are overpowered. It makes no sense to cry about solid cards.

[DragoFireheart]

I was just answering your question, I never said blue is dominate or that no other colors are being played.



- My bad, I thought you were implying that. Anyways, Zilla did a goo job at answering my question.

[lordofthepit]

You guys are getting trolled.

[TRS-Jo]

Paired with shuffle effects, Brainstorm is the single most objectively powerful card in the format, bar none. Merfolk is typically mono-blue and therefore does not run shuffle effects. Even when it does, its extraordinarily high redundancy strongly reduces the need for card filtering, hence the reason it typically doesn't run Brainstorm.

Essentially every single other deck in the format that runs blue plays 4 Brainstorm. It really is that good. It allows for decks like Team America to only run 8 win conditions and still remain one of the most aggressive decks in the format. It literally makes every single deck it gets put into more consistent, and consistency wins games.

Blue is played more than every other color in the format and it's not because it's "just popular." Or maybe it is, but it's popular for the same reason that Google is popular. Because it's the "best."

Brainstorm is absolutely the reason that blue is dominant. When constructing a deck in Legacy, you have to have a very good reason not to start your list with 4x Brainstorm, followed by 4x Misstep, 3-4x Daze, 4x FoW. This is more true now than ever, and only continues to be more true as time goes on. Blue is getting stronger in this format over time and other colors are getting weaker.

It's not at all hard to argue that this is stifling (no pun intended) to innovation, particularly if blue continues to trend upwards as it has without fail since the inception of the format. When people say that blue is dominant and that they think it's a problem, this is what they mean.

As an aside, I think the trend is disturbing, but not so much so that action is necessary. As you pointed out, there are plenty of viable non-blue decks in the format. As long as that's true, I don't think action needs to be taken. I also think that banning Brainstorm would be a real mistake, and should only ever be seriously considered if blue is in literally every competitive deck, because the player backlash to a format without Brainstorm would be severe.

It's definitely the best card in the format, and is unquestionably the reason for blue's dominance, but it's also easy to acquire, easy to splash, requires some amount of skill, is fun to play with, and doesn't feel terribly unfair to play against.

Absolutely agree with you.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think it's hilarious that you guys are crying over how unfair Misstep is because it is making all your severely overpowered 1cmc spells actually require risk to play. "Oh my God I totally would have won that game if he hadn't paid 2 life to counter my Aether Vial which I played before he got to lay his first land. Then I would have been able to drop creatures uncounterably for zero mana at instant speed every turn for the rest of the game, man Mental Misstep is so unfair!!!"

"Oh man, I would have totally won that game if my one mana answer to every creature every printed without shroud or protection from everything would have resolved, but he paid one blue and countered it, obviously Mental Misstep is the problem here, because there totally should not be an easy answer to such a fair card!!!"

"This is bullshit, I would have won that game if he hadn't paid 2 life to counter my turn 1 Wild Nacatl! I would have swung in for 6 damage before he even laid his third land for my one mana. Obviously Mental Misstep is broken here but my 3/3 one drop is perfectly okay and the only fair counter for it turn one should be two cards + 1 life."

"Man, what the fuck. I should have won vs. that Zoo deck but he ran Mental Misstep. That is so broken!!! He's not even a blue deck!!! I demand that Mental Misstep be banned so that all non-blue decks return to a 70/30 matchup for combo because that is what's fair!!!"

Isn't that really what this is all about? Of course most decks are running Misstep right now. If you guys are going to keep relying on completely overpowered one drops to win the game why the hell wouldn't people run Misstep? It's a strong card, and it's a really good card, but the only reason it's a really good card is because there are so many completely undercosted cards at one mana in Legacy. So what is really more unfair in the end, the card that only counters one drops or the one drops that do things like answer 99% of the creatures in the game for one mana, swing for a Lightning Bolt's worth of damage a turn, filter the worst 2 cards in your hand to the top of your deck, allow you to discard a Dredge outlet every turn, allow you to rearrange the top 3 cards of your deck every turn, allow you to drop a Goblin for free any time they connect, and the list goes on.

[Gui]

I disagree with one thing here: Even without Brainstorm in the format, blue would still be the most played color because FoW is the best catch all solution. The single only other color with similar solutions is black, with discards. White can answer every kind of permanent, black can discard them, but the absolute catch all is FoW. Maybe the inexistance of Brainstorm would make blue less powerfull, but would still be the most played, imo.

[Fatal]

I'm actually playing MM in non-blue based deck (middle-range). I think MM should be banned.

Here is a reasons:

MM is free mana - no drawback time walk in turn 1. Paying 2 life is just to small drawback. So when playing for example mirror - guy who has more MM on hand and resolve his one mana drop get timewalk over opponent without any consequents on his mana involve, so he doesn't lost tempo (as for daze) and stops opponent. More over it's not dead card lately since Legacy mana curve is all around one mana drops, some of them are utilities, CQ, manadrops, removal or combo parts so mostly never dead lately.

It took down many archetypes down - Goblins/Spiral/Dredge etc and force them to use (mostly not all) to change strategy or playing Mental Missteps with them self - that isn't healthy situation force decks that doesn't play blue to pack cards to its 75 to have an answer for the same card.

It doesn't have any conditions to play it like island in play or similar so EVERY deck can run it. This mean that in near future if situation doesn't change every decklist using 1cc spells (90% of decks) will start from 4 Mental Misstep - this is enough reason to ban this card.

[Nicola]

Does anyone know if the B&R list will be tomorrow (Monday 19) or the day after tomorrow (Tuesday 20)?

[I am the brainwasher]

September 20th (so, the day after tomorrow...dunn dunn duuuuuunnnn) as far as I was informed here earlier.

[Pich]

Damn stop saying High Tide is dead, its just not played but it still beats Stoneblade and NO RUG..

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think it's hilarious that you guys are crying over how unfair Misstep is because it is making all your severely overpowered 1cmc spells actually require risk to play. "Oh my God I totally would have won that game if he hadn't paid 2 life to counter my Aether Vial which I played before he got to lay his first land. Then I would have been able to drop creatures uncounterably for zero mana at instant speed every turn for the rest of the game, man Mental Misstep is so unfair!!!"

"Oh man, I would have totally won that game if my one mana answer to every creature every printed without shroud or protection from everything would have resolved, but he paid one blue and countered it, obviously Mental Misstep is the problem here, because there totally should not be an easy answer to such a fair card!!!"

"This is bullshit, I would have won that game if he hadn't paid 2 life to counter my turn 1 Wild Nacatl! I would have swung in for 6 damage before he even laid his third land for my one mana. Obviously Mental Misstep is broken here but my 3/3 one drop is perfectly okay and the only fair counter for it turn one should be two cards + 1 life."

"Man, what the fuck. I should have won vs. that Zoo deck but he ran Mental Misstep. That is so broken!!! He's not even a blue deck!!! I demand that Mental Misstep be banned so that all non-blue decks return to a 70/30 matchup for combo because that is what's fair!!!"

Isn't that really what this is all about? Of course most decks are running Misstep right now. If you guys are going to keep relying on completely overpowered one drops to win the game why the hell wouldn't people run Misstep? It's a strong card, and it's a really good card, but the only reason it's a really good card is because there are so many completely undercosted cards at one mana in Legacy. So what is really more unfair in the end, the card that only counters one drops or the one drops that do things like answer 99% of the creatures in the game for one mana, swing for a Lightning Bolt's worth of damage a turn, filter the worst 2 cards in your hand to the top of your deck, allow you to discard a Dredge outlet every turn, allow you to rearrange the top 3 cards of your deck every turn, allow you to drop a Goblin for free any time they connect, and the list goes on.

Posts like this are unhelpful because power level is relative and abstractly saying that doing good things is not necessarily the same as a card being too good is meaningless. To determine if a card is "too" good we have to decide how we're defining that term and then look at where a card falls relative to that.

[Rizso]

Banning Mental misstep will destroy more archetypes then printing of the card alone did. Changing strategi should be in every decks evolution.

[DragoFireheart]

To determine if a card is "too" good we have to decide how we're defining that term and then look at where a card falls relative to that.

Well that begs the question now doesn't it?

How would you define as too good? A high representation in the Top 8? Abstract power? Relative power? Some other criteria?

[Royal Ass.]

The only thing I don't like about Mental Misstep is the shitty art work and the new card frame. I like the card and its affect on the format and don't think it needs to be banned. Even if they are considering banning it they should give it at least another cycle to see how the format adapts.

I wouldn't mind seeing Stoneforge gone though. It's a cheap tutor and it cheats on mana and give unaccountability. But most of all I'm just sick of the card.

I also wouldn't mind seeing NA gone. it also is a tutor and mana cheat. Those both seem to be criteria that WTC considers when banning cards.

[JustPAT4]

Well that begs the question now doesn't it?

How would you define [a card] as too good? A high representation in the Top 8? Abstract power? Relative power? Some other criteria?

I'm hoping for a legitimate answer on this front as well.

I'm very much on board with Holmes sentiment when he argues the only reason MM is ubiquitous is because players run 1 drops that are overpowered in relation to their cost and effect when compared against all other legal cards that offer similar effects. Cards that, on the draw, otherwise can only be responded to by discarding 2 cards and paying 1 life.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Posts like this are unhelpful because power level is relative and abstractly saying that doing good things is not necessarily the same as a card being too good is meaningless. To determine if a card is "too" good we have to decide how we're defining that term and then look at where a card falls relative to that.

Yeah I get that I was reaching a little calling Swords "too good" because calling something too good implies that it should be banned. Still Swords is a one mana answer to almost any creature in the format. I think I could fit all the relevant creatures it doesn't deal with in a twitter post. Either way when people start complaining about Misstep and one of the rallying cries is that it counters Swords/Vial/Nacatl/random-combo-accelerator you have to ask if Mental Misstep is any less fair than the cards it is going to be countering 90% of the time.

It's like Legacy players are addicted to using extremely powerful 1 mana cards as a crutch and are blind to what Misstep means for the format because they can't just run the same line of play they did 5 months ago when having a spell cost 1 mana was nothing but an advantage (except for Top/Balance which was on the decline).

[joemauer]

Well that begs the question now doesn't it?

How would you define as too good? A high representation in the Top 8? Abstract power? Relative power? Some other criteria?

What makes a card too good? Perhaps when the best answer against 'card in question' is your own copy of 'card in question', then maybe the 'card in question' is too powerful.

Hmmm now what card could be a 'card in question' in our current legacy format? I will give you a hint, it is not brainstorm.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

What makes a card too good? Perhaps when the best answer against 'card in question' is your own copy of 'card in question', then maybe the 'card in question' is too powerful.

Hmmm now what card could be a 'card in question' in our current legacy format? I will give you a hint, it is not brainstorm.


Tendrils of Agony?

[DragoFireheart]

What makes a card too good? Perhaps when the best answer against 'card in question' is your own copy of 'card in question', then maybe the 'card in question' is too powerful.

Hmmm now what card could be a 'card in question' in our current legacy format? I will give you a hint, it is not brainstorm.

Well, for that card, there are multiple solutions:

A- Run your own as you said. (Mirror matches, Merfolk)

B- Run a redunant amount of 1cmc spells. (Zoo)

C- Run a deck that don't need 1cmc spells. (Stompy)

D- Run decks that shit all over those blue decks and don't care about a stupid counterspell. (Rock, mid-range, etc)

Just the fact I came up with three solutions beyond "run your own" should be evidence enough that the card in question is not broken.

[joemauer]

What makes a card too good? Perhaps when the best answer against 'card in question' is your own copy of 'card in question', then maybe the 'card in question' is too powerful.

Hmmm now what card could be a 'card in question' in our current legacy format? I will give you a hint, it is not brainstorm.

Note best answer. Sure you could play a deck that doesn't worry about the card, storm used to eat up survival/vengevine, should Survival of the Fittest have been kept in Legacy?

There is something wrong when the best answer to a card is the card itself. Force of Will isn't the best answer to Force of Will. It is always situational what the best answer to FoW is. It counterspells for free but with the drawback of card disadvantage. MM has no card disadvantage and any deck can run it. So the easiest way to stop MM if it is hindering you, is to run your own. Or just run a new deck, like stoneblade or NO.

[DragoFireheart]

Note best answer.

- I did note that.



There is something wrong when the best answer to a card is the card itself.

- NOW you are making assumptions about MMS, though I do agree with that statement in a general sense.



Force of Will isn't the best answer to Force of Will. It is always situational what the best answer to FoW is. It counterspells for free but with the drawback of card disadvantage. MM has no card disadvantage and any deck can run it. So the easiest way to stop MM if it is hindering you, is to run your own. Or just run a new deck, like stoneblade or NO.

- And have we explored the other options fully to know for sure that running MMS to stop MMS is the answer? Also, comparing MMS to SotF is like comparing a well made Spartan shield to a nuclear bomb: the only thing comparable is they are both used for fighting stuff.

[joemauer]

The best answers to SotF:

1: Play extirpate(black exclusive)

2: Play deck that doesn't care about SotF(fast combo)

3: Play SotF in your own deck.

Answers two and three sound like the answers you gave to battle MM.

[CorpT]

Well, for that card, there are multiple solutions:

A- Run your own as you said. (Mirror matches, Merfolk)
B- Run a redunant amount of 1cmc spells. (Zoo)
C- Run a deck that don't need 1cmc spells. (Stompy)
D- Run decks that shit all over those blue decks and don't care about a stupid counterspell. (Rock, mid-range, etc)
Just the fact I came up with three solutions beyond "run your own" should be evidence enough that the card in question is not broken.

B: This is not a very practical solution. Against decks running Mental Misstep (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22734_Too_Much_Information_Seattle_Pittsburgh_Richmond_And_Boston_Legacy_Opens.html) Zoo is:
Merfolk: 66% (As it has always been)
NO RUG: 50%
UW Stoneblade: 40%
Hivemind: 12%

So Zoo beats the creature based deck running Misstep and loses or splits with the Brainstorm based decks running Mental Misstep. Zoo isn't beating the Misstep/Brainstorm decks. It does well when it dodges those.

C: Seriously? We're talking about decks that have a chance at winning, not some garbage that isn't Tier 3.

D: So the real solution is, run Mental Misstep or Knight of the Reliquary. Awesome format you have there. Maybe you and Tom LaPille should sit down and talk about how awesome Great Sable Stag is.

[Zilla]

There is something wrong when the best answer to a card is the card itself.
Who says Mental Misstep needs to be answered? It's not Show and Tell into Emrakul. It's not Natural Order into Progenitus. It's not SFM into Batterskull. Mental Misstep doesn't need "answering" any more than Swords to Plowshares or Force of Will or Daze. It's not a game-winning play by itself and as such does not require an answer. It's simply a very strong tempo play.

The notion that you're required to run Mental Misstep in order to answer Mental Misstep is downright preposterous. The only time you're required to answer a card is if that card's resolution will unequivocally cause you to lose the game. If your deck is losing to a resolved Misstep, it's more likely a problem with your deck, not with Misstep.

If Misstep is actually a problem, (and I'm not convinced that it is,) it's because it pushes blue even further towards dominance, not because it's an objectively unfair card.



Maybe you and Tom LaPille should sit down and talk about how awesome Great Sable Stag is.
That horse couldn't be any deader. It's time to put down the whip.

[majikal]

B: This is not a very practical solution. Against decks running Mental Misstep (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22734_Too_Much_Information_Seattle_Pittsburgh_Richmond_And_Boston_Legacy_Opens.html) Zoo is:
Merfolk: 66% (As it has always been)
NO RUG: 50%
UW Stoneblade: 40%
Hivemind: 12%

So Zoo beats the creature based deck running Misstep and loses or splits with the Brainstorm based decks running Mental Misstep. Zoo isn't beating the Misstep/Brainstorm decks. It does well when it dodges those.

C: Seriously? We're talking about decks that have a chance at winning, not some garbage that isn't Tier 3.

D: So the real solution is, run Mental Misstep or Knight of the Reliquary. Awesome format you have there. Maybe you and Tom LaPille should sit down and talk about how awesome Great Sable Stag is.
Zoo would lose to Stoneblade even without Brainstorm. Stoneforge->Batterskull is what makes you lose. Not Brainstorm.

[CorpT]

Zoo would lose to Stoneblade even without Brainstorm. Stoneforge->Batterskull is what makes you lose. Not Brainstorm.

And why do they always have a Stoneforge? And a counter for my removal? You can't point to one card and say "this is why blue dominates". It has a critical mass of cards that are superior to cards in other colors. They include: Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Force of Will and Jace. This combination of cards are the reason blue is dominating. Vengevine without Survival was nothing and Survival without Vengevine was just another Tier 2 deck. But together...

[TheKingslayer]

Who says Mental Misstep needs to be answered? It's not Show and Tell into Emrakul. It's not Natural Order into Progenitus. It's not SFM into Batterskull. Mental Misstep doesn't need "answering" any more than Swords to Plowshares or Force of Will or Daze. It's not a game-winning play by itself and as such does not require an answer. It's simply a very strong tempo play.

The notion that you're required to run Mental Misstep in order to answer Mental Misstep is downright preposterous. The only time you're required to answer a card is if that card's resolution will unequivocally cause you to lose the game. If your deck is losing to a resolved Misstep, it's more likely a problem with your deck, not with Misstep.


If Misstep is actually a problem, (and I'm not convinced that it is,) it's because it pushes blue even further towards dominance, not because it's an objectively unfair card.



That horse couldn't be any deader. It's time to put down the whip.


This. This. This.

If you haven't read this well laid post, please read.

What one mana card ends a game on the spot when countered by mental misstep?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well that begs the question now doesn't it?

No, it doesn't, and I'm not sure you understand what that phrase means. Begging the question does not refer to a situation in which a question is actually asked, it refers to a situation where A is true because of B and B is true because of A, but neither is an accepted premise.


How would you define as too good? A high representation in the Top 8? Abstract power? Relative power? Some other criteria?

"Too good" would mean that it is either in a very large percentage of decks- at a guess, I would say that 2/3 is generally the red zone although it matters more for some card types than others- or that the card contributes to archetype or color stagnation.

But that's more of a call for looking at something to be banned, not necessarily the most prevalent card in that metagame. For instance, Force of Will was more common than Flash during GP: Flash, but Flash was the problem card that caused this shift.

Generally one should adopt a "least harm" approach to the banned list, which I think is the strongest argument for banning MM over Brainstorm if anything is to be banned.

[lordofthepit]

I'm going to predict that Mental Misstep gets the axe tomorrow. Some random cards will probably come off the banned list, but I have no idea how the DCI decides what to unban.

Factors which make it likely for Mental Misstep to survive the banning tomorrow include the following:
- "Answer" cards are inherently less broken than "threats", and Mental Misstep does allow fair decks to fight against combos.
- Metagame has slowed down to some extent, so that control decks are more viable than previously.
- Despite the previous point, Mental Misstep has discouraged players from playing the really slow decks that often cause rounds to go overtime (Countertop and High Tide strategies).
- All colors--not just blue--now have access to answers against broken strategies like Storm.
- Despite the prevalence of Mental Misstep (with Top 16s often running ~80% of the allowable slots), there is a lot of variation in decks that play Mental Misstep. That is to say, Mental Misstep isn't central to their strategies or a defining feature of the deck. The strategy of Survival decks clearly revolved around that single card. Mystical Tutor combo decks made use of broken sorceries and instants, and Tutor allowed them to easily and quickly assemble the necessary combo and/or any protection pieces (even though I would argue that Mystical Tutor decks didn't make up a disproportionate percentage of the metagame, nor were they too successful).

However, here are the factors in favor of banning Misstep:
- The metagame now is clearly less diverse than it was from January to May. Decks like Goblins, Elves, Storm Combo, Countertop, and High Tide have fallen off the map. Despite their position as "Decks to Beat", I've noticed much less Rock, Zoo, and Merfolk than before (but they aren't extinct, just less played, which I think is fine in a healthy metagame). Regardless of whether you attribute these to other factors ("these decks are bad", "no one is willing to build their own deck", etc.), this point cannot be disputed.
- Getting your 1-drop Misstepped countered in the early game doesn't just mean your threat is getting answered, but that you are taking a brutal tempo beating in a format in which tempo is even more important than ever. For this reason, I have added Mental Misstep to all my blue decks, added Mental Misstep to all my non-blue decks that can accommodate it (non-linear strategies like Zoo and Maverick), and no longer play decks that cannot accommodate Mental Misstep (Storm, Elves, Dredge, etc.--and in my opinion, Goblins, even though I am aware many players do include MM).
- Even if all decks are able to cast Mental Misstep, the card is extremely strong in the early game (against a blind opponent, there is no single card I would rather see in my opening 7, even in multiples) and often a blank late during topdeck mode. Unfortunately, this has the consequence of making games swingier than ever. Similarly, it makes having Brainstorm more important than before. We have discussed the merits of banning Brainstorm, but it is because of Misstep that Brainstorm is more powerful than ever. (Personally, I think Brainstorm is overpowered, but it is a defining card of Legacy, intrinsic to the way it's played, so I would prefer it stays.)
- The card is an answer, but it is also a huge tempo play, and the alternate cost of just two life is way too low. I would not argue that it is "broken", but I can see why someone would based on that logic.
- The card sees way too much play, even more than Force of Will, Brainstorm, Tarmogoyf, etc. I don't think the ubiquity of a card is necessarily a bad thing, but many people do.

I personally don't think Mental Misstep is a card that needs to be banned, but it is a strong candidate for it. I will continue playing Legacy either way. I won't complain if it survives tomorrow, since it's probably my favorite card since Cursed Scroll, but I won't complain if it gets the axe either (and I would believe the format would be more fun as a result).

[ESG]

Sounds interesting, especially if it had Tom playing UW Mystic for the lulz. Is there a report anywhere for this tournament showing top 8 results and/or match summaries?

The results are up, but only a few of the Top 8 lists have been posted as of yet. I walked around at one point and wrote down a lot of the archetypes, if you're interested. (I saw about half the room.)
http://www.northwestmagic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4585

[Gheizen64]

The results are up, but only a few of the Top 8 lists have been posted as of yet. I walked around at one point and wrote down a lot of the archetypes, if you're interested. (I saw about half the room.)
http://www.northwestmagic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4585

Man i'd find it hilarious if somehow SFM, NO and SnT get banned tomorrow.

Like laughing to no end.

[Gui]

Well that begs the question now doesn't it?

How would you define as too good? A high representation in the Top 8? Abstract power? Relative power? Some other criteria?

I'd use this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominance

[swoop]

I expect following:

Unbanned in legacy: Balance, Earthcraft, Land Tax.

Banned in Legacy: Mental Misstep, Brainstorm.
Unbanned in Modern: Mental Misstep.

[ramanujan]

My guesses for Tuesday,

-brainstorm and mental misstep banned in legacy
-grapeshot and empty the warrens banned in modern
-No changes in vintage, type II, other formats

[Tourach]

I expect following:

Unbanned in legacy: Balance, Earthcraft, Land Tax.

Banned in Legacy: Mental Misstep, Brainstorm.
Unbanned in Modern: Mental Misstep.



I can't see Balance ever coming off the Legacy banned list.

[Admiral_Arzar]

It's not a game-winning play by itself and as such does not require an answer.



Zilla I agree with basically everything you've said except for this post. If you think Mental Misstep isn't a game-winning play, you've probably never had Dark Ritual or High Tide Misstepped.

EDIT: My (tenuous) banlist predictions.

Legacy: Misstep banned. Maybe Earthcraft or Mind Twist will come off, but I don't feel too confident about that.

Modern: Emrakul and Rite of Flame banned. Either Jace and/or Ancestral Visions unbanned.

[majikal]

And why do they always have a Stoneforge?
Because they mulligan until they find it.


And a counter for my removal?
A. Because it's a deck full of counters.
B. Ancestral Visions.
C. Dig spells which could just as easily be Ponder or Preordain in that deck and not even make a difference.


You can't point to one card and say "this is why blue dominates". It has a critical mass of cards that are superior to cards in other colors. They include: Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Force of Will and Jace. This combination of cards are the reason blue is dominating. Vengevine without Survival was nothing and Survival without Vengevine was just another Tier 2 deck. But together...
Wait, just a second ago you were arguing that Brainstorm was the sole reason blue was dominating. Which is it?


edit- RE: http://www.northwestmagic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4585

It seems apparent to me that decks with a strategy based around tutoring and cheating mana costs are the ones actually dominating. Blaming Mental Misstep seems misguided. I honestly expect Natural Order to get the axe tomorrow, first of all. Secondly, Stoneforge Mystic is a candidate, however I think that it can be suppressed by decks that lose to Natural Order if NO gets banned. Show and Tell is also somewhat likely, but it doesn't tutor so they might leave it alone, even if it is obnoxious.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This is for sure one of the hardest B&R changes to call because Modern is going to get turned upside down if Wizards has any common sense at all.

My guesses, not what I want to happen, just guesses.
Legacy
Stoneforge Mystic- Banned
Mind Twist- Unbanned
Earthcraft- Unbanned

Modern
Rite of Flame- Banned
Emrakul- Banned
Scapeshift- Banned

Valakut- Unbanned
Ancestral Visions- Unbanned
Golgari Grave-Troll- Unbanned

[DragoFireheart]

The best answers to SotF:

1: Play extirpate(black exclusive)

2: Play deck that doesn't care about SotF(fast combo)

3: Play SotF in your own deck.

Answers two and three sound like the answers you gave to battle MM.


- The fact that you are comparing SotF with MMS invalidates your position. MMS is a counterspell that only hits cmc1 spells while SotF is a win condition that can tutor 4/3 hasty dudes on turn 2/3. They are abou as comparable as an Island to Black Lotus.

[Julian23]

Zilla I agree with basically everything you've said except for this post. If you think Mental Misstep isn't a game-winning play, you've probably never had Dark Ritual or High Tide Misstepped.

Whenever Mental Misstep hitting Dark Ritual or High Tide actually wins a game it will most of the time be due to one (or both) of two things:

1) The Combo player is just bad.
2) He's being pressured quite hard thus having to just go for it unprotected. In this case, Mental Misstep didn't actually win the game. It was just the last card played.

[DragoFireheart]

Because they mulligan until they find it.


A. Because it's a deck full of counters.
B. Ancestral Visions.
C. Dig spells which could just as easily be Ponder or Preordain in that deck and not even make a difference.


Wait, just a second ago you were arguing that Brainstorm was the sole reason blue was dominating. Which is it?

-Don't waste your time with him. He's obviously has an agenda against blue decks/cards/things.


No, it doesn't, and I'm not sure you understand what that phrase means. Begging the question does not refer to a situation in which a question is actually asked, it refers to a situation where A is true because of B and B is true because of A, but neither is an accepted premise.

- I worried my rhetorical question poorly.



"Too good" would mean that it is either in a very large percentage of decks- at a guess, I would say that 2/3 is generally the red zone although it matters more for some card types than others- or that the card contributes to archetype or color stagnation.

But that's more of a call for looking at something to be banned, not necessarily the most prevalent card in that metagame. For instance, Force of Will was more common than Flash during GP: Flash, but Flash was the problem card that caused this shift.

Generally one should adopt a "least harm" approach to the banned list, which I think is the strongest argument for banning MM over Brainstorm if anything is to be banned.


- So in other words you have only a vague idea of what would need to be banned using your criteria? Do you think MM should be banned over brainstorm? Do you think either should be banned?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Zilla I agree with basically everything you've said except for this post. If you think Mental Misstep isn't a game-winning play, you've probably never had Dark Ritual or High Tide Misstepped.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Mental Misstep isn't overpowered just because it makes combo play fair with non-blue decks. I mean I'm sure it was nice having a 70% matchup vs. Zoo/Goblins/Rock/Sligh decks for the past 7 years, but now a days there is finally a relevant SB cards vs. combo. I personally don't think Misstep countering a Ritual effect that would have won you the game for free qualifies it as particularly ban worthy. On the contrary I think that is the exact reason it should never be banned.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Whenever Mental Misstep hitting Dark Ritual or High Tide actually wins a game it will most of the time be due to one (or both) of two things:

1) The Combo player is just bad.
2) He's being pressured quite hard thus having to just go for it unprotected. In this case, Mental Misstep didn't actually win the game. It was just the last card played.

There have been plenty of times when I say to myself "I can play around (x) free counterspells, but then my opponent has (x) + a Misstep. Once you get to the point where most of the blue decks play 12 free counterspells, it becomes difficult to correctly guess how many they're holding, and they usually have one more than you think, lol.

[dontbiteitholmes]

There have been plenty of times when I say to myself "I can play around (x) free counterspells, but then my opponent has (x) + a Misstep. Once you get to the point where most of the blue decks play 12 free counterspells, it becomes difficult to correctly guess how many they're holding, and they usually have one more than you think, lol.

Yeah, it's called combo is supposed to lose most of the time to counterspell heavy decks with a clock. If it didn't then what could possibly beat it?

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah, it's called combo is supposed to lose most of the time to counterspell heavy decks with a clock. If it didn't then what could possibly beat it?

Other combo decks.

Or combo decks with counterspells. You know a format is dead when fast combo decks with a heavy counter suite are the deck to beat. (Necro Winter)

[alderon666]

Yeah, it's called combo is supposed to lose most of the time to counterspell heavy decks with a clock. If it didn't then what could possibly beat it?

When the control player has to think about his plays I'll even agree with on that one. But just tapping out every turn doing your thing while having ALL of your counterspells active is just plain stupid.

Given a good hand I bet a freaking monkey could beat Storm now with a Merfolk deck.

[DragoFireheart]

When the control player has to think about his plays I'll even agree with on that one. But just tapping out every turn doing your thing while having ALL of your counterspells active is just plain stupid.

Given a good hand I bet a freaking monkey could beat Storm now with a Merfolk deck.

-And what exactly is wrong with paper beating rock?

[dontbiteitholmes]

When the control player has to think about his plays I'll even agree with on that one. But just tapping out every turn doing your thing while having ALL of your counterspells active is just plain stupid.

Given a good hand I bet a freaking monkey could beat Storm now with a Merfolk deck.

So to recap you are mad that blue decks heavy on counterspells have a really good matchup vs. combo, and you think they should ban Mental Misstep so that you will have better game vs. Fish decks with your combo deck (even though fish decks are the best type of decks to play to beat combo) and then every deck without blue will go back to being a 70%+ matchup for anything with High Tides, Rite of Flames, or Dark Rits. Yeah I bet you would like that. Too bad combo players have absolutely no room to talk about unfair matchups since they have had years upon years of some of the most lopsided matchups in history.

[death]

I can't frickin wait for the announcement, my anxiety is killing me. I have a project blue deck on the line and I wish they don't ban Brainstorm!

Looking at the most recent top 8 decks I see more Mental Missteps than Stoneforges, if that's any indication.


EDIT

Too bad combo players have absolutely no room to talk about unfair matchups since they have had years upon years of some of the most lopsided matchups in history.

I feel guilty so QFT..

[DragoFireheart]

I can't frickin wait for the announcement, my anxiety is killing me. I have a project blue deck on the line and I wish they don't ban Brainstorm!

Looking at the most recent top 8 decks I see more Mental Missteps than Stoneforges, if that's any indication.



- I can see SFM, NO, or SnT getting banned before MMS.

Regardless, if MMS gets banned, CounterTop, Dredge, Goblins, and Storm decks will return.

[Admiral_Arzar]

- I can see SFM, NO, or SnT getting banned before MMS.

Regardless, if MMS gets banned, CounterTop, Dredge, Goblins, and Storm decks will return.

Counter-top was dead before the Misstep ban. Dredge is already a DTB. Goblins and Storm will return in strength, to be sure.

[majikal]

-People want MMS banned so they can play their 1-drops.
-They get their wish and then spend the next x months getting their 1-drops countered by Counterbalance.
-???
-Profit!


Counter-top was dead before the Misstep ban. Dredge is already a DTB. Goblins and Storm will return in strength, to be sure.
Disagree. GSZ weakened it at one point, for sure, but there were a lot more builds scaling up their mana curve in the last months before Misstep was printed. I think if MMS had never been printed, Counterbalance would have changed enough to be just as obnoxious.

[DragoFireheart]

Counter-top was dead before the Misstep ban. Dredge is already a DTB. Goblins and Storm will return in strength, to be sure.

Counter-Top was losing popularity due to Merfolk being popular. MMS just sealed the deal. Dredge is not a DTB atm due to MMS.

Blade Control and No Rug might go away. Team America as well. Looks like a meta shift and no net gain or loss to me.

Edit:

- No Rug
- Bladecontrol
- Team America
(maybe) - Hivemind

+ Goblins
+ CounterTop
+ Storm
+ Dredge

Frankly, I don't want to see CounterTop or Storm return.

[tangram]

Does anyone know at which exact time will the announcement take place?

I apologize is someone already posed this question before.

[Gui]

Does anyone know at which exact time will the announcement take place?

I apologize is someone already posed this question before.

Announcement is for weaks, someone @ salvation rumor mill might find the post before it goes up, as happened to SotF

[death]

I can see SFM, NO, or SnT getting banned before MMS.

I hope not. Legacy can stay the same with or without MM but not the other way around without 2 or 3 of those cards.


Does anyone know at which exact time will the announcement take place?

I apologize is someone already posed this question before.

Midnight, PST.

[DragoFireheart]

I hope not. Legacy can stay the same with or without MM but not the other way around without 2 or 3 of those cards.


Legacy will not stay the same if MMS gets banned. Anyways, I feel MMS is more like Tarmogoyf rather than SotF:

- It's not a tutor.

- It's not an enabler for a card (SotF ---> Vengevine).

- It doesn't force decks to run their own to fight it. (Argue that however you want)

[(nameless one)]

My prediction:

Legacy:

Earthcraft is unbanned
Mystical Tutor is unbanned

Thats right, MT unbanned. You know what else. No Land Tax again (Though I would really really love to see this leave the list).

Also, Mental Misstep will not be banned. Why you ask, look up the history of this thread back in 2009. There's that vanilla creature that was the talk of the format. Personally, I think Mental Misstep reduced the playability of a lot of decks, kinda like how Goyf reduced the playability of a lot of great creatures pre-Futuresight but it wasn't as broken as Survival that despite all hate, was still putting up great numbers. To be honest, I hate Mental Misstep but I'd rather have new cards shifting the format than having a stale eternal format.

Two years from now, we'll be adapted to a format with Mental Misstep just like how we've adapted to Goyf. Hell, Mental Misstep might even suck two-three years from now, like how CounterTop sucked now.

[Zilla]

Zilla I agree with basically everything you've said except for this post. If you think Mental Misstep isn't a game-winning play, you've probably never had Dark Ritual or High Tide Misstepped.
I should have named this as an exception, because it's absolutely true. Misstep against Storm combo can absolutely be a game-winning play. It is a must-answer for those decks.

My post was a response to the idea that every deck has to run Misstep in order to answer Misstep, which, generally speaking, is ridiculous.

I do recognize how crippling Misstep has been for Storm's metagame presence. Sorry for the oversight.

[tsabo_tavoc]

My prediction:

Legacy:

Earthcraft is unbanned
Mystical Tutor is unbanned

Thats right, MT unbanned. You know what else. No Land Tax again (Though I would really really love to see this leave the list).

Also, Mental Misstep will not be banned...

Agree with Mental Misstep.

However, why do you want Mystical Tutor unbanned? It might not warp the format, but it would sure strengthen some blue decks by miles, pushing other colours out of presence.

My hope:

Brainstorm is banned.
Earthcraft is no longer banned.

If it ends up like this, I would buy Booster boxes for the first time in my life to thank WotC. Well, other cards can be unbanned, but one by one is fine for me.

Edit: I am a combo player and have been spoiled by Brainstorm. However, just for the aesthetic respect, I would love to see the 5 colours more balanced.

[Nonex]

Vengevine is banned.
Survival of the Fittest is no longer banned.

I mean, going the way of Gush isn't that bad as long as they don't catch or surpass it. And I think they can't by now unless they try extremely hard. Too bad it won't happen.

[KobeBryan]

Agree with Mental Misstep.

However, why do you want Mystical Tutor unbanned? It might not warp the format, but it would sure strengthen some blue decks by miles, pushing other colours out of presence.

My hope:

Brainstorm is banned.
Earthcraft is no longer banned.

If it ends up like this, I would buy Booster boxes for the first time in my life to thank WotC. Well, other cards can be unbanned, but one by one is fine for me.

Edit: I am a combo player and have been spoiled by Brainstorm. However, just for the aesthetic respect, I would love to see the 5 colours more balanced.


My wish, Brainstorm Banned. mindtwist unbanned.