All B/R update speculation.

[ScottW]

I've been playing DDFT for years, this is sad :(

Sorry man, that must be rather upsetting.

[Claymore]

Really does open up so much deck design space it seems now. All sorts of decks can be viable without Miracles lingering in deeper in the tournament, forcing deck building concessions.

Is Caverns necessary now in DnT/Maverick?

Do we need so much Abrupt Decay, or can you get by with sideboard Nature's Claim? Not as much need for Krosan Grip. I don't even know what other disenchant varieties have been released lately.

Discard oriented strategies can make a push.

Without needing Abrupt Decay, BWR decks can open up a little.

Storm etc can abandon the maindeck Abrupt Decay, unless they're wanting to answer Chalice more often.

Interested to see what control deck will take the mantel, since something will need to prey upon all the fast combo that's about to come out of the woodwork.

[Ronald Deuce]

And the crowd goes CRAZY.

[Humphrey]

so 8 years after this poll was opened and top was the main problem they finally banned it?

theyre really quick

[CutthroatCasual]

Just for the record, folks:



Miracles was not OP in WotC's eyes. Logistics was the key.

I think we can all agree (emotions aside) that Legacy is at a very interesting juncture right now - for better or for worse. Exciting stuff!

Getting rid of ETA accomplishes the same thing and doesn't kill the last bastion of pure control because then Miracles players don't have something to durdle towards.

[UnderwaterGuy]

This is the third time gush moves to the restricted list. I doubt it will be unbanned in the years to come. Such a shame, it's one of the icons/pillars of vintage imo, with its legacy all the way up to Tropical Storm and Gro-a-tog (Psychatog) Decks...

It's very frustrating for me to see it. I don't like the Gush Mentor decks either but I really don't think Gush was the culprit for that deck and the deck was incredibly popular and played but objectively it did not perform as well as Workshops. it's brutal for 2 cards to be banned from this deck that is being played most often but was not dominant in terms of wins.

[Ace/Homebrew]

so 8 years after this poll was opened and top was the main problem they finally banned it?
You beat me to it! :tongue:

I was going to point out that WotC's decision was heavily influenced by the poll at the top of this thread.

[Umezete]

I'm conflicted, I don't like miracles but never saw it as a huge deal and I don't like it when a deck gets axed.

That said, for some reason slow play is absolutely rampant in Japan and miracles players are by far the worse offenders. So I utterly understand the logistics behind the ban.

[Barook]

Long overdue, but still - fucking awesome.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cnryxwH6A

[Claymore]

The kill condition of choice didn't matter. They could utilize Snapcaster to end the game. Entreat, Mentor etc just let them do it faster.

Interesting that Wizards acknowledged that Miracles has been the best deck for a long time and they were hoping the format would take it down, but the format could never adjust to it.

[bruizar]

I'm conflicted, I don't like miracles but never saw it as a huge deal and I don't like it when a deck gets axed.

That said, some some reason slow play is absolutely rampant in Japan and miracles players are by far the worse offenders. So I utterly understand the logistics behind the ban.

Imagine how I felt when my 4x Shahrazad deck was banned, yet I'm the one who has to cope with those damn top-shuffle-top sequences.. I die to slow play more often than I do to having 0 life left, and I know it's not me because I pick aggressive decks to minimize the impact it has on me.

[H]

Pretty much me, right now:

http://i.imgur.com/X3TeVee.gif

Durdle tears are so sweet.

[danyul]

The Fucking Sweetest. The posts in the Miracles thread make it sound like somebody actually died. lololol.

[Gheizen64]

Pretty much me, right now:

http://i.imgur.com/X3TeVee.gif

Durdle tears are so sweet.

Yet another victim of the brainstorm tiranny, rip top, may our t2 decks prosper in peace without you.

Not even a single card unbanned, seriously wotc

[JDK]

Towards where do I focus my hate now? :D

Feels great after hating on Top for 4-5 years now.

[CutthroatCasual]

Pretty much me, right now:

http://i.imgur.com/X3TeVee.gif

Durdle tears are so sweet.

That'll be me in 2 months when TNN/Leo/DRS takes over the format.

[rubblekill]

The Fucking Sweetest. The posts in the Miracles thread make it sound like somebody actually died. lololol.

Well, something is definitely dead now [emoji4]

[Claymore]

Reddit is losing their fucking minds over this. I don't think any of them play Legacy. Format became so warped to deal with Miracles that it was thought to be just a normal part of Legacy.

[Crimhead]

Interesting that Wizards acknowledged that Miracles has been the best deck for a long time and they were hoping the format would take it down, but the format could never adjust to it.
They also said this wasn't enough to justify a ban.

[Skyl3lazer]

Getting rid of ETA accomplishes the same thing and doesn't kill the last bastion of pure control because then Miracles players don't have something to durdle towards.

Hasn't Mentor already replaces ETA in most cases? Seems like the worst possible ban if you want to knock the deck down a peg.

[UnderwaterGuy]

They also said this wasn't enough to justify a ban.

Sure, they said that but they still banned the card.

[CutthroatCasual]

Hasn't Mentor already replaces ETA in most cases? Seems like the worst possible ban if you want to knock the deck down a peg.

With the format moving more towards slower BUG decks (as opposed to Eldrazi for a while), ETA became a lot better.

[lorddotm]

These B/R updates are just proof that Wizards is trying to dumb down the game, this time by killing Doomsday decks.
WotC is always pandering to netdeckers who aren't willing to learn how to play a deck themselves.

[CptHaddock]

Reddit is losing their fucking minds over this. I don't think any of them play Legacy. Format became so warped to deal with Miracles that it was thought to be just a normal part of Legacy.

Yeah I don't think so either. Seems like the majority of Reddit users on the Legacy subreddit are just modern converts.

[Claymore]

I think UWx Stoneblade comes back. Batterskull can deal with Leovold and hold off Truename nicely. Supreme Verdict of course. UWb with discard, Force, Deluge, and counterspells (actual Counterspell) could be a thing.

UW Control with Rest in Peace and Energy Field might come back, although Decay still lingers.

So many deck ideas had to be killed off early because it couldn't deal with Miracles...which is how Reid Duke BUG became a thing anyway.

[JDK]

These B/R updates are just proof that Wizards is trying to dumb down the game, this time by killing Doomsday decks.
WotC is always pandering to netdeckers who aren't willing to learn how to play a deck themselves.

lol. I loved DDFT, but tbh, those ~3 players worldwide are not even on Wizard's radar (or anyone's).

[Skyl3lazer]

These B/R updates are just proof that Wizards is trying to dumb down the game, this time by killing Doomsday decks.
WotC is always pandering to netdeckers who aren't willing to learn how to play a deck themselves.

For those of you that missed it this is easily the best Hot Take of this entire banning

[Claymore]

Another good thing about this ban is no one has to face off against an Invocation Counterbalance...awesome that Starcity is offering refunds on it.

[Crimhead]

For those of you that missed it this is easily the best Hot Take of this entire banning

The big take away is that WotC not handling the format the way one wants does not mean they do not care about it or are not paying attention.

[Crimhead]

Sure, they said that but they still banned the card.
They sited logistics in their reasoning.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I don't think so either. Seems like the majority of Reddit users on the Legacy subreddit are just modern converts.

Well that can't be true, since they all just swore off Legacy until the Reprint List is burned to a crisp. /s

[Tittliewinks22]

At the time of posting this, Abrupt Decay is the following % of the meta...

26.2%

I would like the people who claim that CB is the reason for this card to be played in such high numbers to remember this one year from now... I'll have crow ready to serve.

[aluisiocsantos]

Can I dust off my Zoo?

[joven]

Terminus is still out there.
Just saying.

[hovercraft]

At the time of posting this, Abrupt Decay is the following % of the meta...

26.2%

I would like the people who claim that CB is the reason for this card to be played in such high numbers to remember this one year from now... I'll have crow ready to serve.

It's a great card on it's own, but I think it's gotta decrease a bit without Miracles around. Especially with Fatal Push around for creatures.

[CutthroatCasual]

Can I dust off my Zoo?

Will Delver's metagame share go down after today?


It's a great card on it's own, but I think it's gotta decrease a bit without Miracles around. Especially with Fatal Push around for creatures.

It's still the cleanest answer to stuff like Leovold, Lili, Goyf, Delver.

[H]

At the time of posting this, Abrupt Decay is the following % of the meta...

26.2%

I would like the people who claim that CB is the reason for this card to be played in such high numbers to remember this one year from now... I'll have crow ready to serve.

I already said I'd be happy to eat it if I end up being proven wrong.

This change is going to be good for Legacy, long-term, I feel pretty confident.

[Claymore]

Yep. There's still targets for Decay, but the likes of Nature's Claim, Fatal Push, Lightning Bolt, the new white card disenchant can be more efficient answers and still hope to resolve, and you don't have to warp your mana base into BGxx to deal with Counterbalance. I'd honestly sleeve up Golgari Charm over Decay now, and toss in some Nature's Claims for the errant Blood Moons and equipment.

[Bobmans]

So what's next. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170424/c7b63672392fe86fafac89537dddbcb2.jpg

[Kagehisa]

Wait a minute ! OooHHHHH MmmYYY GGgGGOOODDDD !!!!!!!
Soothsaying

[btm10]

sic semper tyrannis

Trooth

[Tantarus]

I am so happy right now. Miracles was killing my love for legacy over the last 3 months. I am super invigorated about legacy again.

It is a brave new world boys and girls. I cant wait to see it.

Also this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KquFZYi6L0

[aluisiocsantos]

Will Delver's metagame share go down after today?


Too real man, too real.

[NetterMizuno]

So what's next. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170424/c7b63672392fe86fafac89537dddbcb2.jpg

I can buy that thing from you and put it on shelf next to twin.

Also im happythat i stick my decision to build tezzeret as my first legacy deck and not miracles :D

[tescrin]

First, the absolute madmen! They actually did it!


Also of note: They didn't give us a hostage in return (unless I missed something) which I find pretty interesting. I assume that means one of two things:
* They're quite concerned about all of those cards
* They would rather see what happens to the format rather than inject all this change in one sitting

Still, very interesting. Red just got a huge shot in the arm, Elves will probably enjoy some power, and that means that other combos will be back in force too I imagine; circling around, meaning we should see more Delver too. Very interesting times ahead!

oh man! Bant got better too! Don't have to piss yourself about constantly having 4 colors.
An exciting day for the brewer indeed

EDIT: Miracles has been boring me out of legacy for a good two years. As soon as it was apparent that it was an obvious best deck (around where people were still arguing whether the Ponder version or the Legend version was better) it's been a thorn in my side. Every time I brewed a Grixis, Bant, Esper, or a non-U deck, the specter of "Oh good, I'm perma locked unless I play 4 colors, get lucky, or play subpar garbage" loomed, and killed my enjoyment.

I am mildly sad it's Top, but no complaints. I wanted Terminus because frankly I figured hitting the lesser-evil card would be safer, but OH MAN. Time to play some Legsy

[Brael]

It's a great card on it's own, but I think it's gotta decrease a bit without Miracles around. Especially with Fatal Push around for creatures.

It's going to remain powerful, I expect an uptick in Chalice to fight combo, and that means Abrupt Decay to answer it.

[rufus]

Yeah, it's a little odd to see no prisoner exchange considering there's a decent list of reasonably safe cards they could have picked.

I tend to think that Counterbalance is a grossly powerful card, and I wonder if it will stick around without top.

[tescrin]

My argument is This:

Less that 1/6 of the meta is Miracles, and that is the format's only hard control deck.
Forcing control out to make space for a wider variety of midrange (an archetype not currently lacking representation) will be a net loss of diversity (by measure of viable play-styles).


To be fair, you're just wrong. Lands was still a thing and is going to be a thing. As is aggro loam (which is still a control deck, despite it's name. It relies on Loaming and Pfiring your opponent to death.)

Just because MIracles was the only "BLUE control deck" is not a way to steal the thunder from the Loam decks. Additionally, Cloudpost control could be a thing again depending on how the meta shifts.

We haven't seen this format without CounterTop dominating for like.. three years. We may well find *different* control strategies survive and evolve now that being locked out for not playing Black isn't as big a deal.

[Lemnear]

They also said this wasn't enough to justify a ban.


WotC: That alone is not necessarily enough to move to ban a card from the deck...

Please, reread what they said

[Claymore]

June 2012 Update

Grognards rejoice! After an obscenely long absence, classic U/W Control has returned to the top-tier of Legacy on the wings of a bunch of cheap angels and one-mana Wraths of God! And bringing Counterbalance with it, for those of us who missed that other bastard too.


Miracles has been the thorn in the side of Legacy since 2012 and the printing of Terminus. Nearly five years. It was kicked out for a month in Feb 2014, and since then was always the #1 or #2 DTB based on the formulas in the thread. I think prior to that it shared some metagame with Blade Control.

[Barook]

Please, reread what they said
People get picky when something doesn't fit into their narrative. :wink:

Since Miracle players now start whining at Aaron Forscythe on Twitter:
The years of nagging finally paid off. (https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/856525350230085632)

[raudo]

Almost perfect day. Only Survival of the Fittest they accidentally forgot to unban. :cool:

[Warden]

Glad to see Top banned. Wish they also banned Terminus.

It's also interesting to hear WotC mention they are looking at Gitaxian Probe. I wonder what's next on the chopping block.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Someone should put a sign by WotC hq telling them to unban stuff.

[Dice_Box]

Someone should put a sign by WotC hq telling them to unban stuff.
I don't often agree with you kid, but in this case I am with you.

[Noctalor]

I've been playing DDFT for years, this is sad :(

https://i.gyazo.com/1a61d61ecf47cab81c7c6b8708e1d8d2.png

We died for the greater good.

Fun fact, doomsday players also got fucked in vintage because 4x gush 4x probe was the only reason to play the deck

[Crimhead]

Can I dust off my Zoo?
If this is poking fun at everyone who thinks Miracles killed aggro, +1000000000 points!


To be fair, you're just wrong. Lands was still a thing and is going to be a thing. As is aggro loam (which is still a control deck, despite it's name. It relies on Loaming and Pfiring your opponent to death.)

Just because MIracles was the only "BLUE control deck" is not a way to steal the thunder from the Loam decks. Additionally, Cloudpost control could be a thing again depending on how the meta shifts.


RG Lands is combo/prison, but I'll agree RUG Lands is pretty much straight prison.
We don't see much of RUG Lands at the top tables though.

Yes, prison is a type of control, but we don't have a word for non-prison control, so we often just say 'control'.

As for Loam, I have been very clear to say non-midrange control. Loam is 100% a midrange/control deck. Death by PF is a back up should Goyf fail.


Please, reread what they said
Okay. I took that to mean that did not think power level alone was sufficient cause for a ban. This is the most reasonable interpretation.

You are correct that technically they left that open (and they are notoriously deceptive with things they merely imply). I'll cheerfully concede this point.

[Barook]

Someone should put a sign by WotC hq telling them to unban stuff.
A "Abolish the Reserve List" sign should be top priority now.

[aluisiocsantos]

To be fair everyone knows that the real culprit in Legacy is a word starting with brain and ending with fart.

[Ephemeron]

*looks up to the poll at the top of the thread*

Looks like we did it folks! Time to start up the "Ban Tarmogoyf" campaign!

[Noctalor]

Im already drunk, tonight is gonna be good

[Dr_D]

We died for the greater good.

Fun fact, doomsday players also got fucked in vintage because 4x gush 4x probe was the only reason to play the deck


I am quite happy that Miracles is gone, this is the most excited I've been about the format in a while.

[ramanujan]

All,

I played Dreadstill back when that was a thing in the first Chicago Legacy GP, which at the time was a gigantic tournament. I believe that was near the end for Mystical tutor in Legacy. Top and counterbalance was strong. A lot has changed over the years for each of the various decks. Miracles has had enough time in the sun. Is the deck dead, absolutely not, but top was the gas that made the fire burn in that deck. I don't think it will thrive as well as Tendrils and Reanimator have since the ban of Mystical.

My most selfish opinion is that my absolutely favorite deck for any format might have a good shot at being really good again. Time Spiral high tide with candelabras for the win!

Peace.

[Lemnear]

okay. I took that to mean that did not think power level alone was sufficient cause for a ban. This is the most reasonable interpretation.

You are correct that technically they left that open (and they are notoriously deceptive with things they merely imply). I'll cheerfully concede this point.

Nothing bad happened here. No sweat. As much as I like to pick on WotCs badly worded Announcements, I just felt that this one wasn't quite unreasonable. For me it hinted that the longterm Performance would have been sufficient to ban it, but the logistical issues on top just sealed its fate.

I am just confused about why a goddamn sign on their Parking lot possibly left more of an impression than 3 years of data and dominance

[Claymore]

I imagine because it hit the top of /r/magictcg. Twice. Visuals and viral marketing are a bigger mover than data to some companies I guess.

[CutthroatCasual]

People get picky when something doesn't fit into their narrative. :wink:

Since Miracle players now start whining at Aaron Forscythe on Twitter:
The years of nagging finally paid off. (https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/856525350230085632)

Eldrazi is still going to suck. What will you bitch about then?

[CptHaddock]

Nothing bad happened here. No sweat. As much as I like to pick on WotCs badly worded Announcements, I just felt that this one wasn't quite unreasonable. For me it hinted that the longterm Performance would have been sufficient to ban it, but the logistical issues on top just sealed its fate.

I am just confused about why a goddamn sign on their Parking lot possibly left more of an impression than 3 years of data and dominance

Just based on the wording of the announcement it looks like they have been watching the format for a very long time. I'm sure that they also thought that some of the newer cards they printed especially for Legacy (prelate, leovold, etc) and newer ones (Chandra) may help as well. For sometime they did but the deck adapted and continued being leagues better than the rest of the format.

I think the nice thing about their ban/unban cycle change is that if they feel like the format has gotten to a point where it can handle miracles as a deck they can just unban the card. I think the best part of this announcement was just the confirmation that yes they do watch the format even though they might not directly acknowledge it.

[CutthroatCasual]

I think the nice thing about their ban/unban cycle change is that if they feel like the format has gotten to a point where it can handle miracles as a deck they can just unban the card. I think the best part of this announcement was just the confirmation that yes they do watch the format even though they might not directly acknowledge it.

That's a terrible philosophy: alienate a large portion of the playerbase as an experiment? People have been saying "Legacy is dying" for years, but WotC actually just killed it. By the time WotC realizes their mistake and starts banning things like TNN and DRS "in the interest of competitive diversity" or unbanning Top and other stuff because "we feel the metagame can handle it", the format will be dead.

[Noctalor]

Eldrazi is still going to suck. What will you bitch about then?

Nothing, we finally got a meta in which every deck has a counter.

I wish most of the miracle player were not shitty enought to understand how good the deck was :laugh:

[CptHaddock]

That's a terrible philosophy: alienate a large portion of the playerbase as an experiment? People have been saying "Legacy is dying" for years, but WotC actually just killed it. By the time WotC realizes their mistake and starts banning things like TNN and DRS "in the interest of competitive diversity" or unbanning Top and other stuff because "we feel the metagame can handle it", the format will be dead.

You know I was going to give you a more in depth reply but can you bottle up your tears so I can drink them?

thx

[CutthroatCasual]

You know I was going to give you a more in depth reply but can you bottle up your tears so I can drink them?

thx

Only if I get an IOU for 3 months from now when you realize the metagame is going to look even more homogenous.

[Noctalor]

You know I was going to give you a more in depth reply but can you bottle up your tears so I can drink them?

thx

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a9/d4/6e/a9d46e3a8dc980d1348e9e7dfc14ab1c.jpg

[CptHaddock]

Only if I get an IOU for 3 months from now when you realize the metagame is going to look even more homogenous.

I don't think that anyone is going to deny that DRS is the best card in the format now. If multiple archetypes spawn out of DRS that is a good thing.

I really don't know why you're complaining about top being banned since you seem to be very good at Soothsaying.

[Dice_Box]

Eldrazi is still going to suck. What will you bitch about then?
Eldrazi? So when I bring 4 Wasteland and 4 Ghost Quarter to bare against them should I bitch or can I leave it for them?

Name a deck in the format right now that doesn't have a tier 1 or 1.5 deck that foils it.

[Scott]

That's a terrible philosophy: alienate a large portion of the playerbase as an experiment? People have been saying "Legacy is dying" for years, but WotC actually just killed it. By the time WotC realizes their mistake and starts banning things like TNN and DRS "in the interest of competitive diversity" or unbanning Top and other stuff because "we feel the metagame can handle it", the format will be dead.

Oh come on, dial back the emo.

[phg22]

Its amazing how much everyone feels the need to be assholes to each other today. Also the smugness. From both sides.

[LOLWut]

Its amazing how much everyone feels the need to be assholes to each other today. Also the smugness. From both sides.

Yours is the smuggest post today.

[mistercakes]

We should have put that sign outside of the wotc building 3 years ago.

[Ephemeron]

I don't think that anyone is going to deny that DRS is the best card in the format now. If multiple archetypes spawn out of DRS that is a good thing.

I really don't know why you're complaining about top being banned since you seem to be very good at Soothsaying.

Sigged. That was just delightful.

[Mr Miagi]

it's interesting to me how Vintage gets much more attention by Wizards as opposed to Legacy in terms of un/restricted cards.

[Claymore]

I think it's due to the weekly Vintage Super League, hosted on the official Magic twitch channel and with their name on it. That and Randy Lahey seems to have a strong connection to the B&R people.

[Ronald Deuce]

randy lahey

my sides

[Crimhead]

Yours is the smuggest post today.

I guess you haven't seen the Miracles thread. A lot of face rubbing going on.

[jandax]

^^this

Like taking porn from virgins

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[CutthroatCasual]

Name a deck in the format right now that doesn't have a tier 1 or 1.5 deck that foils it.

BUGx TNN + Leovold. Not that Miracles stomped over that deck (in fact, Miracles had an even to unfavorable MU against them), but now that the premier "doesn't target to remove" deck is gone, TNN will become better and Leovold will nearly always draw you a card.

[Stuart]

^^this

Like taking porn from virgins

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Because it forces them to stop playing with themselves?

[Crimhead]

BUGx TNN + Leovold. Not that Miracles stomped over that deck (in fact, Miracles had an even to unfavorable MU against them), but now that the premier "doesn't target to remove" deck is gone, TNN will become better and Leovold will nearly always draw you a card.
If I put Ports back in (EE) Lands, good luck resolving your :b::u::g: three drop!

Infect was the tier one deck that crushed Miracles. I think it had popularity issues - too much like a combo deck for tempo players, but too much like a tempo deck for combo players.

I hope Infect can survive - that deck had real character. Otherwise it's bck to good-stuff Delver piles for our tempo decks I guess. :frown:

[JDK]

A "Abolish the Reserve List" sign should be top priority now.
Amen.

[out51d3r]

If I put Ports back in (EE) Lands, good luck resolving your :b::u::g: three drop!

Infect was the tier one deck that crushed Miracles. I think it had popularity issues - too much like a combo deck for tempo players, but too much like a tempo deck for combo players.

I hope Infect can survive - that deck had real character. Otherwise it's bck to good-stuff Delver piles for our tempo decks I guess. :frown:

Infect is also pretty good against Elves. Hard to say how everything will shake out, but I suspect that Infect won't die off.

[Barook]

I still wonder about the timing for the Eternal changes. The data to justify a Top ban has been there for years, but why now? It wouldn't suprise me if it is partly used as a distraction since they didn't do jackshit to Standard. Again. No changes at all would probably cause a riot.

[JDK]

I asked them to ban Top in the survey somone posted a few days ago. Thank me for making Legacy great again. :]

[KZhang]

I still wonder about the timing for the Eternal changes. The data to justify a Top ban has been there for years, but why now? It wouldn't suprise me if it is partly used as a distraction since they didn't do jackshit to Standard. Again. No changes at all would probably cause a riot.

Because sets are planned a couple of years in advance, and Top was placed in EMA.

They probably wanted to do it much earlier, but couldn't ban Top until EMA was released for sometime.

[ubernostrum]

Strongly suspect that:


By end of 2017: Deathrite Shaman will not be legal in Legacy.
By end of 2018: Something from the Delver shell and something from at-the-time-most-popular combo deck will be banned in Legacy. Intuition tells me LED or Griselbrand.
By end of 2019: Something else from the Delver shell, and 1-2 more combo cards will get the axe.
2020: Legacy players wonder whether they should have celebrated WotC "listening" to internet complaints.

[Barook]

Because sets are planned a couple of years in advance, and Top was placed in EMA.

They probably wanted to do it much earlier, but couldn't ban Top until EMA was released for sometime.
That's still a 3/4 year to get it done. They even just released Counterbalance as invocation - which is completely worthless without Top.


Strongly suspect that:


By end of 2017: Deathrite Shaman will not be legal in Legacy.
By end of 2018: Something from the Delver shell and something from at-the-time-most-popular combo deck will be banned in Legacy. Intuition tells me LED or Griselbrand.
By end of 2019: Something else from the Delver shell, and 1-2 more combo cards will get the axe.
2020: Legacy players wonder whether they should have celebrated WotC "listening" to internet complaints.

So they're fixing the format by getting rid of all the cancer that shat up the format since Delver was released? Good riddance!

[porcupinetreeman]

I voted for top years ago in this thread lol

[btm10]

I still wonder about the timing for the Eternal changes. The data to justify a Top ban has been there for years, but why now? It wouldn't surprise me if it is partly used as a distraction since they didn't do jackshit to Standard. Again. No changes at all would probably cause a riot.

I think Top/Miracles had been on the watchlist since Dig got banned but there kept being hiccups that could lead them to say 'maybe this is enough to rein it in'. And a lot of times the initial 'maybe' was plausible - the Aether Revolt B/R meeting almost surely came on the heels of Duke's GP win with 8 mana dorks (making it seem like Leovold did his job), Kaladesh came out on the heels of Leovold and Sanctum Prelate being printed, and Recruiter of the Guard and Eldrazi before that. The bar for bannings to nerf Control decks is historically pretty high, ostensibly because they slow formats down and can make games seem interactive even if they're too good for healthy competitive metagames.

[ScottW]

The banner for this thread is silly now: "not that they will touch it." Also, I'm sure it was the 192 people participating in this poll that had the biggest impact on the banning. I'm selling all my Tarmogoyf tomorrow (wait, I don't own any). I guess I have to sell my LEDs:frown:

[phg22]

On the topic of banning Top vs Counterbalance or Terminus, does anyone think WotC cares about the optics of having cards banned in legacy but legal in moden?

[Crimhead]

On the topic of banning Top vs Counterbalance or Terminus, does anyone think WotC cares about the optics of having cards banned in legacy but legal in moden?
I really hope not. We have cards legal in legacy but restricted in Vintage. DRS was banned in Modern but legal in Standard.

This sort of thing helps convey that the formats have different textures.

[MorphBerlin]

BUGx TNN + Leovold. Not that Miracles stomped over that deck (in fact, Miracles had an even to unfavorable MU against them), but now that the premier "doesn't target to remove" deck is gone, TNN will become better and Leovold will nearly always draw you a card.

Have you even played a BUG-Deck ever? Against Burn, Lands, Elves, TurboDebths, S&T, MonoR Sneak? It has enough natural enemies unlike Miracles.

Well, when I read in the Miracles threat you guys were allways claiming BUG as a unfavorable Miracles MU was far fetched especially since the swith to MD Predict. No it suddenly changes so you can cry about the ban... I must say Miracles (ex)players are really entertaining at times^^

[Tittliewinks22]

Is it too soon to discuss unbanning Earthcraft again? :D

[Megadeus]

Ban Brainstorm

[frogczar]

Wow. I can't believe WotC actually made a ban in Legacy. Not only that, but a ban that might actually really impact things. Does this mean you like me again Wizards? Are you saying we can be friends?

Sensei's Stalling Top was a card I disliked but never felt like it was trouble until we had Counterbalance. Then they made miracles.

Good riddance.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

now that they banned top, is there any argument for keeping mana drain banned?

[Lava Snacks]

This isn't an explicit argument against the ban, but part of me does wonder how much Legacy knowledge the B/R people have. I mean, have Aaron Forsythe and the rest even heard of DDFT? Maybe they don't even know that they killed decks, so it couldn't factor in.

[CutthroatCasual]

So they're killing the format by getting rid of all the good stuff that made the format more interesting than Modern since Delver was released?

Fixed that for you. If you want to play a format dominated by midrange, there's one that shares the first letter with the archetype.

[Dice_Box]

This isn't an explicit argument against the ban, but part of me does wonder how much Legacy knowledge the B/R people have. I mean, have Aaron Forsythe and the rest even heard of DDFT? Maybe they don't even know that they killed decks, so it couldn't factor in.
To be fair, the choice was one of "Kill the enabler or the enabled." They went with the enabler. I do not feel decks like 12 post, Painter, DDFT or Nic Fit ever hit the radar. Nor do I think if they had of hit the radar it would have changed anything.

Wizards state they wish to hit the card that makes things happen, Flash, Survival, Pod and Twin all show that to be true. The only format they honesty choose to not follow this rule is in Vintage where they choose to leave things like Bazaar, Ritual* and Workshop alone. I also wish they had of left Gush alone. But that's a talk for a different time.

*I am not suggesting Ritual should be Restricted, but at one point there was an argument for it and it was left untouched as a "Pillar".

[Megadeus]

*I am not suggesting Ritual should be Restricted, but at one point there was an argument for it and it was left untouched as a "Pillar".

Unfortunately it will never be a Pillar again in a world of Misstep your misstep that is misstepping my misstep that is misstepping your ritual

[Dice_Box]

Fixed that for you. If you want to play a format dominated by midrange, there's one that shares the first letter with the archetype.
Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist? I mean, if I thought a field was going to be Delver, Lands, ANT and SnT, I don't think I am showing up with Jund, BUG or 4Colour.

I am not sold on "Midrange: the format" as a true direction for us. Sure, midrange style decks will increase in popularity as things like Push come to the front and as people look to see if Blade decks are viable again. That's not the format though, that's not also including the people moving over to SnT because they already have fetches and Volcanics, that's not including the people picking up TES, ANT and other quick combo decks as they test the waters.

Miracles fading doesn't mean suddenly everyone is playing Blade, BUG and Jund. I mean, please do, they are wonderful meals for my Dark Mistress.

[PirateKing]

Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist?

Because to a few Miracles=Control and Control=Miracles. Miracles is not longer a deck, which means there will never be control ever again, ever. Once you believe that then they can give you the entire rabbit hole tour.

[CptHaddock]

Because to a few Miracles=Control and Control=Miracles. Miracles is not longer a deck, which means there will never be control ever again, ever. Once you believe that then they can give you the entire rabbit hole tour.

Right on the money.

It's not like before miracles there were different styles of control (draw/go, tap out, aggro-control, prison, etc) and the respective advantages or disadvantages of playing each subtype. I'm going to channel my inner nedleeds and blame the children.

[Crimhead]

Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist?

Because Miracles bashers over the years have convinced (some) people that Terminus was the only thing standing in the way of a return to the "glory days" of Maverick Summer.

Not just midrange, some people are actually asking about Zoo being viable again!

I think Legacy will be fine.

[Claymore]

Wait, seriously?

Why? I mean I know Miracles is 'oppressive' but it's never been an issue for anyone I know, we kind of just accept it's good and deal with it.

This was made by a guy with an Eldrazi flair, so estimated to be new to the format.

I think that's the mentality that's been driven into everyone lately, where the oppressiveness is just assumed and you have to build around it. Easy to see that removing Miracles leaves players wildly confused and they're led to believe that there will be no more control ever again.

[Megadeus]

This was made by a guy with an Eldrazi flair, so estimated to be new to the format.

I think that's the mentality that's been driven into everyone lately, where the oppressiveness is just assumed and you have to build around it. Easy to see that removing Miracles leaves players wildly confused and they're led to believe that there will be no more control ever again.

Control is dead. There is no more wrath that I ever have to play around and counter spells dont exist and neither does snapcaster mage and swords its all dead now thanks wotc brhejehfhoedosfsaadsa

[Crimhead]

To be fair, before Miracles hit big, Landstill was struggling to keep up in the post Delver world (as was Pox, Enchantress, and Stax). Control was mostly mitigated to Stoneblade and Thopter decks, which were more aggressive than what we were used to seeing called control. This led to a sentiment among old scholl control players that hard control, like pure aggro, had become a relic of MTG's past.

Miracles was a return to old school hard control that are more dedicated to defense.

We might or might not see another deck so dedicated to defense that it has but a slim possibility of closing a game out early. We've had worse metas for control, so I'm sure Legacy will still be fantastic.

[CptHaddock]

To be fair, before Miracles hit big, Landstill was struggling to keep up in the post Delver world (as was Pox, Enchantress, and Stax). Control was mostly mitigated to Stoneblade and Thopter decks, which were more aggressive than what we were used to seeing called control. This led to a sentiment among old scholl control players that hard control, like pure aggro, had become a relic of MTG's past.

Miracles was a return to old school hard control that are more dedicated to defense.

We might or might not see another deck so dedicated to defense that it has but a slim possibility of closing a game out early. We've had worse metas for control, so I'm sure Legacy will still be fantastic.

Thopters and SFMs are more aggressive than going mentor into, circlejerk with 2 tops, kill you? Or are we saying that Thopters/SFM are more aggressive than going EoT make 32 power of flying angels, kill you?

[Crimhead]

Thopters and SFMs are more aggressive than going mentor into, circlejerk with 2 tops, kill you? Or are we saying that Thopters/SFM are more aggressive than going EoT make 32 power of flying angels, kill you?

I remember Thopters (along with a minimal disruption) trying to race my (creature-less) Burn deck. Not successfully, but they gave it the college try, and that takes some serious capacity for aggression.
Playing Lands - believe me that Esper Blade puts up far more pressure than EtA Miracles, or even Mentor Miracles. Not even close

Mentor Miracles was also more aggressive than the other builds, but still less so than Blade.


Control is dead. There is no more wrath that I ever have to play around and counter spells dont exist and neither does snapcaster mage and swords its all dead now thanks wotc brhejehfhoedosfsaadsa

That's kind of like saying aggro is alive and well because we still get rushed by cards like Delver, Gurmag, Blighted Agent, Goyf, and Ichorids. Those are aggressive cards!

Compared to the old days, aggressive decks run more control, and controlling decks run more threats. Fair decks are more well-rounded and balanced with their aggressive and controlling elements.

[HSCK]

I remember Thopters (along with a minimal disruption) trying to race my (creature-less) Burn deck. Not successfully, but they gave it the college try, and that takes some serious capacity for aggression.
Playing Lands - believe me that Esper Blade puts up far more pressure than EtA Miracles, or even Mentor Miracles. Not even close

Mentor Miracles was also more aggressive than the other builds, but still less so than Blade.



That's kind of like saying aggro is alive and well because we still get rushed by cards like Delver, Gurmag, Blighted Agent, Goyf, and Ichorids. Those are aggressive cards!

Compared to the old days, aggressive decks run more control, and controlling decks run more threats. Fair decks are more well-rounded and balanced with their aggressive and controlling elements.


This is the worst logic imaginable for running a format. "Decks have to have less than X creatures and not be able to kill before turn X in order for it to be considered a control deck and it must appear in the format."

[Ronald Deuce]

Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist? I mean, if I thought a field was going to be Delver, Lands, ANT and SnT, I don't think I am showing up with Jund, BUG or 4Colour.

I think the fans of divine topdecking are still reeling. There's a strong undercurrent in the thread of "I want to play control that doesn't also play conventional creature-based strategies," and that now that Miracles is gone, they're assuming the sky is falling and we're turning into Modern. Seems pretty implausible to me, especially because strategies relying more on higher-costed cards were always naturally good at breaking through CounterTop.

I agree that we need to wait and see; this is Day 2, after all. I have a sneaking suspicion that, aside from a few decks' resurgence (High Tide, perhaps), things won't really change all that much for most decks. Something will rise to the top, but I doubt it'll take over the format the way Miracles did. I don't know enough to comment with authority, but I have a feeling that whatever people think Miracles preyed upon to an inordinate degree probably wasn't going to dump on the format, anyway.

I'm also interested to see whether Miracles pilots make structural changes and keep the deck going or drop the whole thing like a burning skunk covered in tacks.

[Crimhead]

This is the worst logic imaginable for running a format.

You got me all wrong.

I'm not talking about how to run a format. I'm talking about recognising distinct play-styles.

I believe representation from a wide range of playstyles is very good for a format in (and should be a factor in format management). But having every style viable is obviously an unreasonably tall order.

Right now I'm, just trying to get people to admit that there is a difference between hard control and midrange control!

Everyone understands that Delver decks are too heavy on disruption to be considered pure aggro. But for some reason not everybody accepts that Goyf.dec or SFM.dec could possibly be too heavy on threats to be considered pure control. :confused:


There's a strong undercurrent in the thread of "I want to play control that doesn't also play conventional creature-based strategies," and that now that Miracles is gone, they're assuming the sky is falling and we're turning into Modern.

Thank you for acknowledging this distinction!

Such control decks were a dying breed in the time between Delver/Maverick and the rise of Miracles. So "grognard" control freaks have legitimate reason for concern.

Me, I like my Lands deck - usually RUG (the hard control variety).
I want to play against "control that doesn't also play conventional creature-based strategies" because midrange/control decks are basically just (clunkier) aggro/midrange decks the moment they sit down across from me. I like to have the diversity of the occasional more real control match between two more strictly defensive decks. Hopefully Such a deck can find a niche in our meta. :)

In the meantime, I plan to enjoy crushing the creature decks, smoke breaks after losing to combo, and the general thrill of the "wild west" roller-coaster as the meta figures itself out.
:smile:

[CutthroatCasual]

I have a feeling that whatever people think Miracles preyed upon to an inordinate degree probably wasn't going to dump on the format, anyway.

This right here is what's going to happen. Maverick will try to make a comeback and be beat, Zoo still sucks, Elves might actually become a thing again (though according to Julian, he was already improving his winrate against Miracles so I don't know what else was keeping the deck down because you're not going to face 9 Miracles decks over the course of a tournament meaning that you can't blame the decks non-success on Miracles alone).


I'm also interested to see whether Miracles pilots make structural changes and keep the deck going or drop the whole thing like a burning skunk covered in tacks.

If anything, people will start playing Esper (or UWr) Mentor to much, much less success.

[Lemnear]

Because Miracles bashers over the years have convinced (some) people that Terminus was the only thing standing in the way of a return to the "glory days" of Maverick Summer.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/76745604.jpg

[Crimhead]

Elves might actually become a thing again (though according to Julian, he was already improving his winrate against Miracles so I don't know what else was keeping the deck down because you're not going to face 9 Miracles decks over the course of a tournament meaning that you can't blame the decks non-success on Miracles alone).

I think he also said that Elves has made some awkward inclusions to deal with the Miracles match, and that now the deck can better focus on what it does well.

[Crimhead]

meme]
Two things at play here:

Some people believe controll-ish midrange will be the go-to control decks in the post SDT meta.
Some people believe that with Miracles and Terminus gone the format will somehow be good for Maverick, Jund, Junk, and all sorts of other obsolete non-blue midrange and aggro decks.
(1) Might well be true, but it by no means indicates our format will be flooded with midrange.
(2) Is absurd IMO, but there seem to be some very optimistic non-blue creature deck lovers out there in for a rude awakening.

If you have another idea why (some) people are predicting so much midrange I'd love to hear.

[Dice_Box]

I think the fans of divine topdecking are still reeling. There's a strong undercurrent in the thread of "I want to play control that doesn't also play conventional creature-based strategies," and that now that Miracles is gone, they're assuming the sky is falling and we're turning into Modern. Seems pretty implausible to me, especially because strategies relying more on higher-costed cards were always naturally good at breaking through Countertop.
I can understand that. I mean if Lands suddenly became this dominant deck who could not be stopped and Diamond/Exploration suddenly hit the chopping block, I would feel upset too. But I wouldn't seek to make up shit about how the format would look. I am not going to say it's all going to be 4 colour decks and 12 post because Lands took a bullet.

I also have had a very odd path though Magic since I returned. I played nothing but Goblins before I left, I came back as the deck was dying and had to face both that fact and my own immaturity (personally, not just on the format) to come to a better place personally and in Legacy. I branched out and found that for all my years of playing Aggro, Prison was actually my true love. It took a long time to understand that and to then find my way though the options, seeking out the deck I now play. I am invested and I would not like to, after walking that path, suddenly see my home torn down. This just happened to others.

Yesterday I reacted on euphoria, but that has passed. Now the situation is one of forward thinking. "What will happen, why will it happen?" The cold truth is that no one of us really has the answer, but we have all been in this pool long enough to have a guess. Some of us haven't ever known the format without Miracles, some of us remember it, but that time was so long ago and so many printings ago that we are all in this together now. Waiting and guessing, all without a true knowledge of tomorrow.

That quote of mine, the one in your signature, I stand by it. This format, if you really want to win you have to play Blue. I play Land's yes, but I have been doing so for years now. I have lent the deck out to others and cringed as I watched them play. Sometimes having to walk away from the table before I hit them over the back of the head. But that said we have taken a step towards perhaps a format whereby Blue is a little less necessary, a little less prominent. Perhaps a new start at something else.

The fun part of all this is that tomorrow, if you really love this format, you will all find something else to love. You have lost a deck, but not the options, the knowledge, the skills and the power to still play in this format. Blade control may not suit you but there are other paths to walk. I don't know what will suit everyone but this is Legacy, options are kind of the thing we never have lacked. Even if good matchup are sometimes a thing we do.

[ahg113]

I am late to the party. But I just wanted to add a "Fuck You Wizards" for knee-capping some of the only decent non-blue card selection out there, (HERE I COME SCROLL RACK!). 1st world problems, #nobodyplaysTeamItalia, blah blah blah.

But yeah, a bad decision is better than the apathy they had previously shown. So movement it is! Whether or not it is progress, debatable.

But seriously- they identified the real culprit, Counterbalance. Should've just nuked that card, and then leave well enough alone otherwise.

[Crimhead]

That quote of mine, the one in your signature, I stand by it. This format, if you really want to win you have to play Blue.

I've been telling you to get on the RUG lands train for years. :tongue:

[Claymore]

I think that's what will happen; deck building will relax and people won't have to metagame their decks against Miracles. Take a look at the likes of Maverick, Dark Depths, Junk, Zoo, (most of the Tier 2 shit I play) basically any older you page open will ask "what's the plan for Miracles?" I don't really see that for any other deck except Eldrazi and DnT. I don't play Delver, but a quick look in Grixis and Shardless shows similar trends.



Here's a wild thought that I'm just going to throw out there - After getting Terminus'd so much by Miracles, I kind of thought that Dryad Arbor might be good in the deck since it's an easy way to get a creature onto the battlefield (also gets through Countertop lock too)...and it also combos well with Ghor-Clan to deal a bunch of damage to an opponent or a Jace after a Terminus. Several games where I got my Miracles opponent to 3-4 life and a Dryad Arbor would have just finished them off. It's a little crazy, I know.



Finally more recent zoo decks have been playing PWs main deck to give some game against Miracles, or splashing back for abrupt decay. Hope that helps.



It's awkward because I think you want to main deck Thalia right now, and with T4 Bloodbraid and Thalia out you need 5 mana for any non creature you hit off her. But both are kind of key cards to handling Miracles so it's kind of necessary imo.


I would always plan to play Miracles which means packing Libraries and Truths but the colors offer such a large selection of cards and effects.



The tower was to ensure that late game against Miracles, they could not just terminus/swords everything away but I also have no qualms to cutting it.



I've been wracking my brain for a 15th SB card that has high impact against miracles while also having some game against the other fair decks (ie garruk/bitterblossom/etc)- any thoughts?


I struggle a lot vs miracles... I can sometimes steal a game1 here and there but overall I haven't won a match against them. I have a legacy challenge this weekend on modo and if I can solve the miracles matchup by then I'll play high tide!

[...] I have been really happy with my list overall, it's just miracles that is a big issue.



I'm currently struggling to decide between the Ballista/Stronghold sideboard and the Rite/Boseju sideboard, which has been explored in the last few pages. My main priority is beating Miracles, as I'm finding that D&T is closer to even.


Oh and a relevant one for Top itself:


Top is killing me lately, so i added a Null Rod (along with Needle) in the board to help, so this sideboard is a little different than all the 5-0's i have on Goldfish. Whenever i lose to Miracles, it is definitely due to Top, the card is absurd.

[Dice_Box]

I've been telling you to get on the RUG lands train for years. :tongue:
Well, I'm there now.

[JDK]

Because to a few Miracles=Control and Control=Miracles. Miracles is not longer a deck, which means there will never be control ever again, ever. Once you believe that then they can give you the entire rabbit hole tour.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Because Miracles bashers over the years have convinced (some) people that Terminus was the only thing standing in the way of a return to the "glory days" of Maverick Summer.
Which is funny, considering the salty ones are shouting "have fun with your midrange festival" :rolleyes:

[Lemnear]

Two things at play here:

Some people believe controll-ish midrange will be the go-to control decks in the post SDT meta.
Some people believe that with Miracles and Terminus gone the format will somehow be good for Maverick, Jund, Junk, and all sorts of other obsolete non-blue midrange and aggro decks.
(1) Might well be true, but it by no means indicates our format will be flooded with midrange.
(2) Is absurd IMO, but there seem to be some very optimistic non-blue creature deck lovers out there in for a rude awakening.

If you have another idea why (some) people are predicting so much midrange I'd love to hear.

I too think that DRS+TNN+Snapcaster+discard will be the upcoming top dog, because losing Miracles does not affect the base power of the UBg shell, BUT it never was about Maverick or similar decks.

All people asked for was a way to build decks which didn't completely evolve around the question of how to adress Terminus and Counterbalance at the same time. If a concept can't deal with both aspects, it was outright trash. Terminus/Counterbalance was the test to pass for every deck and after almost 4 years the only "solution" seemed to be "play a fringe and clunky deck which loses against the remaining 85% of the metagame". Again, its not about Jund, Maverick or aggro decks in general, but about giving people some room to breathe/brew. Of course, if the ban of Terminus was a subtopic in the thread, people pointed to old aggro-angle archetypes which vanished over the years to possibly return in some numbers, but in no way one hinted that Jund & Co would be a top tier deck without Miracles. It's just about giving people the option to pick up and evolve these archtypes again, which wasn't possible in the solved state the format had the last 12+ months


@Claymore

That's years of TheSource on a nutshell ;)

[talpa]

BUGx TNN + Leovold. Not that Miracles stomped over that deck (in fact, Miracles had an even to unfavorable MU against them), but now that the premier "doesn't target to remove" deck is gone, TNN will become better and Leovold will nearly always draw you a card.


Fixed that for you. If you want to play a format dominated by midrange, there's one that shares the first letter with the archetype.

I really am enjoying all the whining. I am ejoying less all the nonsense, but I have appreciated plenty of others have already answered.
BUGx have many awful matchups to keep it in check: lands, burn, blood-moon stompys, basically all the combos. Plus, I am expecting elves to be the biggest winner of this ban, and it's a bad matchup also.
The most fun part of the first quote though is "Leovold will nearly always draw you a card"!!!111!!! no, really?! like a Baleful Strix but costing one more mana specific coloured? We should ban Strix before it all comes down to UB deck dominating the metagame!!!

As for the midrange consideration, even if midrange strategies would become more present in the new meta (and I don't think so), it will never be like modern. I think that you haven't played many modern games, as you haven't with bug decks in legacy. The problem in that format is PRECISELY the lack of interaction between the players, the stack being irrelevant, fast combos being almost unstoppable, blue lacking real disruption... A legacy midrange mirror can't be battled on creature board presence only; plus, in legacy you will always acknowledge the presence of combos; in a few words, a legacy matchup will always feature more interaction between the players and more fun as a consequence.

As for the issue about control being or not being playable in a "hard control" mode or if it needs some form of "aggresion" (SFM, GOYF, etc). I can't see how this could be perceived as a problem by the majority of players. But I am old, and I like control, so let's say it could be a consideration for me. Well, I remember playing hard control decks where you needed to play sorcery speed sweepers, and you hadn't any way of "closing fast the match" once you were able to more-or-less stabilize the board. Two damages a turn with Mishra? Ultimating Jace? All of that in a situation where you reached a far less oppressive and soft "lock" than top-balance. And yet, it was viable.
So I can't understand why hard-control shouldn't be viable in the new meta. There are new problematic printings, true. TNN? I remember having to play with BUG Landeed against Thrun which was not only untargettable but also uncounterable. They have not printed threats only, the have also printed answers. Toxic deluge? Oh wait, you think a hard control deck can be only UW? What about Council's Judgment then. Uncounterable wraths? Yes, we have them. Why not try something new, like As Foretold plus Restore Balance. Why not play just one terminus, personal tutor, and stadstill (your opponent can't commit to the board once they see terminus, then you plowshare their EOT plus standstill. And once again they can't overcommit cause you can always brainstorm the terminus on top any moment). I'm not saying something it will work, but that something could. Of course, it won't be AS EASY as with miracle.

From a control player perspective, the big question about miracle was not only it being "oppressive" or a real (and the actual only one) tier 0. It was that its game plan was too easy. Why should you be allowed an instant speed undercosted sweeper? Why should you be allowed to close the game fast (maybe again instant speed with EOT ETA)? The real reason everybody is whining is because now if you want to play control:

you'll need to go the hard way

once again you'll have bad matchups.

Will a new hard-control deck be viable? I don't know. But I think it will be fun to try and test.
A thing (try and test a different hard-control deck) that we couldn't do before (if we wanted to play competitive), because there was already a better option (just play miracle) plus a downside (apart from being probably less effective against the meta, any hypotethical different control would always lose from the CB lock).

[Crimhead]

:rolleyes:
Just so we are clear, I do not agree with the decision. However:

I do agree it was a reasonable a defensible call.
Also, I am by no means one of the "salty" ones:

I won't miss the match that much. It was a unique challenge, but also very taxing mentally.
My favourite archetypes are prison, followed by combo.
My favourite colour is :g:.
My favourite card type is land.
I joined just after the Mystical Tutor ban - this is the most exciting shake-up I've ever experienced.
My enthusiasm for MTG hasn't been this high since Eldrazi Aggro arrived last year.
So I'm pretty happy right now. In fact for strictly selfish reasons I prefer the ban!


Which is funny, considering the salty ones are shouting "have fun with your midrange festival

Okay. Remember I'm responding to this:


Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist?
I'm not sure who exactly Dice was hearing from. We can only speculate why they'd reach so preposterous an hypothesis.

We can also assume there is not a single mentality - but all kinds of notions floating around in this sea of emotions.

Yes, salty control players are reacting to the ban by venting their angst against recent (midrange pushing) design - and saying some foolish things.

Also, (formerly) salty Maverick (and) Zoo players are wetting their pants.


IAgain, its not about Jund, Maverick or aggro decks in general, but about giving people some room to breathe/brew. Of course, if the ban of Terminus was a subtopic in the thread, people pointed to old aggro-angle archetypes which vanished over the years to possibly return in some numbers, but in no way one hinted that Jund & Co would be a top tier deck without Miracles. It's just about giving people the option to pick up and evolve these archtypes again, which wasn't possible in the solved state the format had the last 12+ months

That's certainly a reasonable position.

All I'm saying is these guys talking so much about bringing back their pet decks might be causing other people to adopt the irrational fear-mongering about supposed upcoming Midrange format. Again, I don't really know who is thinking such a thing, and I can only guess at their "reasoning".

[H]

Am I the only one who has a hunch that we'll look back at the Top ban in much the same way we look at the Mystical Tutor ban?

As in, questionable at the time, but pretty certainly right given what was later printed.

Or is everyone still salty about that ban?

[Lemnear]

Am I the only one who has a hunch that we'll look back at the Top ban in much the same way we look at the Mystical Tutor ban?

As in, questionable at the time, but pretty certainly right given what was later printed.

Or is everyone still salty about that ban?

I am salty about that reasoning for the Mystical Tutor ban, not the ban itself.

Mystical Tutor was a luring threat getting more powerful the more instants/sorceries get printed (similar to survival in terms of creatures), but pulling some bullshit about "MTGO practice room" and "gentlemens agreement" out of ones ass, will never be forgiven, especially as LaPille is still working in the Development Department.

[Ronald Deuce]

I am salty about that reasoning for the Mystical Tutor ban, not the ban itself.

Mystical Tutor was a luring threat getting more powerful the more instants/sorceries get printed (similar to survival in terms of creatures), but pulling some bullshit about "MTGO practice room" and "gentlemens agreement" out of ones ass, will never be forgiven, especially as LaPille is still working in the Development Department.

Given that I wasn't paying much attention to Magic at the time (uni), and given that it took me forever to find the damnable thing, here's the article for anyone who's curious: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/format-considerations-2010-06-25

That was, indeed, terrible reasoning on their part.

[H]

I am salty about that reasoning for the Mystical Tutor ban, not the ban itself.

Mystical Tutor was a luring threat getting more powerful the more instants/sorceries get printed (similar to survival in terms of creatures), but pulling some bullshit about "MTGO practice room" and "gentlemens agreement" out of ones ass, will never be forgiven, especially as LaPille is still working in the Development Department.

Which is why I never read the "explanations" because they are usually just the PR pitch.

History can reveal that the spin (on the MT ban) was bogus, but the result was correct. That's fine with me.

I think time will show us this is probably another case of the same.

For all we know, there is some Miracle-esque top-deck mechanic in the future, or some other design space they are looking at.

Consider: Vizier of the Menagerie, while not really relevant to Legacy, could show an example of design space they are working into.

[Claymore]

The new XUG Nissa as well. Descendant's Path. Delver of Secrets. Top of the library is space they're getting into, and it just happened that Miracles busted it open with Terminus and Entreat. Top was already banned in Modern and most top of the library space is creatures, which Miracles made irrelevant. I'm curious if banning Terminus or Counterbalance would've led to some other interaction being busted enough with Top around.

[Megadeus]

I mean Brainstorm and Ponder are both still around to really help you control the top of the deck. I think it'll be fine. Also I find the current miracles thread incredibly interesting right now. It is nice to see ideas being thrown around and completely different deck lists rather than the usual of "Do I run the fourth snapcaster or fourth predict?". It Looks like the fucking Nic Fit thread in there right now of just wild west lists

[maharis]

Update!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/addendum-april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-26

haha it's just about banning Felidar Guardian in standard. They couldn't even unban mind twist with this announcement?\

Anyway, they have serious problems going on over there. Yikes.

[Lava Snacks]

^ lulz

Unrelated to that, but related to SDT. It's banned, whatevs. Can we start enforcing slow play now anyway?

[tescrin]

All I'm saying is these guys talking so much about bringing back their pet decks might be causing other people to adopt the irrational fear-mongering about supposed upcoming Midrange format. Again, I don't really know who is thinking such a thing, and I can only guess at their "reasoning".

I mean. I could see bringing Junk again; but I don't expect to crush combo. That's the whole thing. Every other deck in the format has to deal with bad MUs. Miracles just sidestepped all that completely by being able to run loads of basics without issue, no cards you can interact with outside of Counterbalance [while being the least targetable card type in the game], and Voila.

I don't mind playing against Storm when I'm junk. That's the luck-of-the-draw aspect of legacy. If I win it's either a testament to skill difference or an absolute luck sack. Miracles was like someone somehow managing to convince you against your will "I bet you $5 you can't ride an exercise bike for 8 hours." You can. Literally anyone can. No one wants to. But inevitably on hour 5 as you think to yourself "Why am I here..?" You think.. "Well shit! I only have 3 hours to go!"

But unlike that, the bike was rigged to fall apart at hour 7.5.
Every time.
For eternity.

Until you died.

[Brael]

Update!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/addendum-april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-26

haha it's just about banning Felidar Guardian in standard. They couldn't even unban mind twist with this announcement?\

Anyway, they have serious problems going on over there. Yikes.

Wizards handling of this has been a cat-astrophe.

[bruizar]

Wizards handling of this has been a cat-astrophe.

So they needed 2 days to find out the amonkhet standard environment was already solved? Manglehorn was great hate both against heart of kiran as well as saheeli rai.

WOTC is seriously fucking shit up, first baning looter scooter, then emrakul, now felidar guardian. Why the fuck would you buy into a dominant deck anymore if wotc is deciding who gets to play what anyway. What a typical wotc catastrophe. I never want to hear "we only test for standard" again from wotc.

[Brael]

So they needed 2 days to find out the amonkhet standard environment was already solved? Manglehorn was great hate both against heart of kiran as well as saheeli rai.

WOTC is seriously fucking shit up, first baning looter scooter, then emrakul, now felidar guardian. Why the fuck would you buy into a dominant deck anymore if wotc is deciding who gets to play what anyway. What a typical wotc catastrophe. I never want to hear "we only test for standard" again from wotc.

The interesting thing is that going by what they said, they barely test for Standard either. They do test for it, but given the numbers of people they have on any given format it's just not possible to test much. Think about how much iterative development they have going on at a time. Then consider that any given format can only be tested for 3 months (since that's their release schedule). I strongly suspect they only get 10 rounds in with the final version of a format.

That's why their current set design philosophy is so screwed up. Remember Innistrad? It had a strong graveyard theme, yet preceding it put Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction, and Nihil Spellbomb into Standard. During it we got Grafdiggers Cage and several pieces of exile based removal. After it we got Ground Seal, Rest in Peace, Deathrite Shaman, and Scavenging Ooze. That's a lot of safety valves for a format, and it allowed people to interact when GY's were an issue. But current set design has totally abandoned that philosophy. They push removal later into a format to let a sets mechanics shine, and they started pushing mechanics which simply don't work in the face of removal. Heroic? Eldrazi? Devotion? These mechanics wither and die in a world where basic cards like Doom Blade exist. Wizards started screwing up years ago, and this is what happens after going down that path. Formats need safety valves, and a lot of them. Wizards removed them all in order to push a few creatures.

The greatest irony of it all? Because Legacy/Modern aren't iterative, they would actually be easier to test for.

Edit: Going to make a called shot. They said they aren't testing the planeswalker decks either. There's about to be 3 legal Gideons in Standard for that dumb emblem, as well as a spell that tutors for planeswalkers. People can concievably run a 16 Gideon deck, so that they can't lose the game, and back that up with board wipes and so on. I bet a ban happens here too.. all because yet again, they didn't test the cards they're adding to the format or include any safety valves.

[Ronald Deuce]

So they needed 2 days to find out the amonkhet standard environment was already solved? Manglehorn was great hate both against heart of kiran as well as saheeli rai.

WOTC is seriously fucking shit up, first baning looter scooter, then emrakul, now felidar guardian. Why the fuck would you buy into a dominant deck anymore if wotc is deciding who gets to play what anyway. What a typical wotc catastrophe. I never want to hear "we only test for standard" again from wotc.

I blew a couple thousand dollars on Standard before I started playing Legacy, and all I can say is that they really don't learn from their mistakes.

Every Standard iteration has its dominant deck. They can't change that, and the fact that they devote so much energy to doing so indicates that their priorities are not at all aligned with attainable goals or a realistic understanding of how the game works outside the testing room.

Regarding Standard, from my perspective, never again.

Regarding the philosophy of the Standard—and Legacy—bans, they indicate that popular opinion (important though it is for their continued attainment of a profit margin) is more important than an analysis of what's right and wrong with the game. Modern bans have long evinced this, but it's reaching the point that I can't think of a valid argument for their having any other concern but their bottom line.

[EDIT: Opposed though I am to bans of any kind, I am glad Miracles took a hit, though I'd have been much happier had the hit not been one with collateral damage.]

[tescrin]

So they needed 2 days to find out the amonkhet standard environment was already solved? Manglehorn was great hate both against heart of kiran as well as saheeli rai.

WOTC is seriously fucking shit up, first baning looter scooter, then emrakul, now felidar guardian. Why the fuck would you buy into a dominant deck anymore if wotc is deciding who gets to play what anyway. What a typical wotc catastrophe. I never want to hear "we only test for standard" again from wotc.


Is Thalia Heretic out of standard already? I figured she'd fix the problem [although being in the same colors as the combo isn't helpful lol]

It's kinda funny that this particular combo is actually *faster* than the copy-enchantment they banned [sort of. you had to untap with your killer]

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

This is WOTC's chickens coming home to roost, I'm enjoying it.


Is Thalia Heretic out of standard already? I figured she'd fix the problem [although being in the same colors as the combo isn't helpful lol]

It's kinda funny that this particular combo is actually *faster* than the copy-enchantment they banned [sort of. you had to untap with your killer]

Flash makes that last bit mostly irrelevant.

[Lord Seth]

I blew a couple thousand dollars on Standard before I started playing Legacy, and all I can say is that they really don't learn from their mistakes.

Every Standard iteration has its dominant deck. They can't change that, and the fact that they devote so much energy to doing so indicates that their priorities are not at all aligned with attainable goals or a realistic understanding of how the game works outside the testing room.I disagree with this. While it is true most Standard environments do have one deck that takes up a noticeably bigger metagame share than the rest, there are exceptions. Innistrad-RTR, for example, was actually a quite diverse Standard.


Is Thalia Heretic out of standard already? I figured she'd fix the problem [although being in the same colors as the combo isn't helpful lol]Thalia is still Standard legal. Sees a ton of play, too; MTG Top 8 says it's in 31.3% of decks.

[Lemnear]

What the actual fuck? Can't they analyze data BEFORE their regular B&R announcement? Does this mean they can now ban/unban stuff whenever the fuck they please by a Steve Jobs memorial dick move of "Oh, I barely forgot one more thing..."?

On the ban itself:
Of course it was a ban as a result of their obvious, non existing testing and of course ot was a combo deck which gets neutered. WotC is just off the hooks with their bans in Standard in a 3-6 month cycle while Legacy takes 3 years and a sign on their parking lot to actually notice that something is off

[Barook]

Copycat way already 40% of all 5-0 decks before the B&R announcement. Now they panic and emergency ban because it's still 40% two days later? Bullshit.

My guess is that prerelease and preorder numbers for the latest set came in and were catastrophic, so they had to change things asap, especially with sale numbers down in Q1 2017.

[Smuggo]

I think they'd be better off just leaving the format alone even if it is a two-deck affair (I mean, it's usually no more than a 3-deck format anyway so who cares?). Seems this way they are making themselves look like a total shambles and pissing off their customers who are constantly having to chop and change their decks even more often than they would do normally.

Also, dunno why they seem to hate anything that isn't just slapping each other in face with creatures for standard these days. There just seems to be so few opportunities for any kind of interesting interactions and if there is one it now gets banned.

[catmint]

B & R Announcement June 14:

Standard: no changes

Modern: no changes

Legacy: Julian is banned from playing Elves.

[bruizar]

Copycat way already 40% of all 5-0 decks before the B&R announcement. Now they panic and emergency ban because it's still 40% two days later? Bullshit.

My guess is that prerelease and preorder numbers for the latest set came in and were catastrophic, so they had to change things asap, especially with sale numbers down in Q1 2017.

it's exactly this behavior that pushes magic players to eternal or worst, hearthstone.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I am salty about that reasoning for the Mystical Tutor ban, not the ban itself.

An old weak gray man on the hill
Alone, sad he looks down, down the vale


I'm very close to being sad that I cannot play Magic: the Gathering anymore, at least not with the cards that I could be calling my own. The SDT affair is the most interesting B&R decision in years, and it will lead to an explosion in deck-building creativity, metagame shifts and tournaments attendance.

I really like the elegance of WotC's solution. While crippling the non-Mircles deck was bad side effect of the banning, it's still lovely that the other two "offenders" (CB and Terminus) are unharmed and there's a possibility for the archetype (and its very original cards) to survive.

While Terminus might be a cold meat, and God bless that it happened, Counterbalance is still usable, and as it is an extraordinarily interesting card (that may finally serve its duty without being misused due to the 2nd part of the lock), I'm glad that it remains.
It may become a part of "non-broken" prison style deck, a type of CB.dec that finally needs some tweaking (similarly to how other prison decks need to be builded, be it CotV/Stasis/whatever) and doesn't just get jammed into the Best Cards pile.

I know that Scroll Rack (and Tax/Rack as an archetype) is pretty far from SDT/Miracles, but that's exactly what I like about the idea. Instead of having a CB/Top hard lock that needs zero deckbuilding concession to apply, a lock that is kinda easy to operate, and one that leads to enormous number of non-games, now there'd be a "soft" lock that is operated through main phase Ponders and/or JTMS activations (that pre-emptively set the top card in an anticipation of opponent's possible plays, something that calls for the skills that only a few Cabal Therapy masters posses), with a backup of one and only Scroll Rack activation, maybe with an emergency Brainstorm.

The inability to flush the board clean during the "announce attackers" phase is a real plus, yet the one-mana Wrath is still viable, although its chances are lowered.

[Ronald Deuce]

Can't they analyze data BEFORE their regular B&R announcement?

This is the main question that leads me to think it's not a bad thing that they listened to the players on Top. Assuming, of course, that they actually listened to players.

I don't know; their reasoning was flimsy this time around, too.

Also, yeah; 48 hours' worth of data? Really? Rounds of Standard don't finish in 48 hours.

[Crimhead]

B & R Announcement June 14:

Standard: no changes

Modern: no changes

Legacy: Julian is banned from playing Elves.

I don't think they'll ban Julian till the 16th. They need to gather some data, right?

[Crimhead]

This is the main question that leads me to think it's not a bad thing that they listened to the players on Top. Assuming, of course, that they actually listened to players.


There's real danger in listening to players. Players are usually divided, (and almost always self-interested) with the least content making the most noise. And there ks always something in this format people are screaming to have banned. Look what has been happening in Vintage.

I very much hope SDT was banned for tournament data and not player feedback.

[Megadeus]

The difference in Vintage is that they seem to be weighing heavily on one heavily inbred small metagame in the VSL. If the legacy league on MODO takes off it's a great thing, but I really hope that because we still have some large legacy tourney every month or two that any future decisions wouldn't rest solely on the Legacy MODO league

[Crimhead]

really hope that because we still have some large legacy tourney every month or two that any future decisions wouldn't rest solely on the Legacy MODO league

That's my hope too. But I can't help thinking that Miracles was (so I heard) far more dominant online than in paper.

I don't mind the Top ban. But I would mind if WotC starts getting hands on with the banned list.

[H]

This is the main question that leads me to think it's not a bad thing that they listened to the players on Top. Assuming, of course, that they actually listened to players.

I don't know; their reasoning was flimsy this time around, too.

Also, yeah; 48 hours' worth of data? Really? Rounds of Standard don't finish in 48 hours.

How many times does it need to be shown that the "explanations" in the B&R announcement is solely PR pitch? Spin, nothing more. This doesn't mean it can't have elements of truth, or be based on some facts. You don't need their explanations, you have logic you can use. Somewhat valuable life lesson: look what people do, not what they say.

I'm pretty sure they saw Zvi's article (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/pro-tour-copycat/) and realized what was about to happen. Kuddos for at least realizing they fucked up and fixing it.

[Claymore]

That's my hope too. But I can't help thinking that Miracles was (so I heard) far more dominant online than in paper.


Noticed this awhile back:


So for the first time, I got a Miracles list posted as a 5-0 in a league for which I didn't even go 5-0. Apparently, this has also happened with another Miracles player I know. Is there something about the MTGO posting algorithm that somehow may cause Miracles list to be over-represented among these 5-0 lists?

(I have also had several 5-0s for which the lists were never posted. I think these were usually with decks other than Miracles.)

They only post either a random assortment of 5-0 or 4-1 decks, or they curate the list. I remember awhile back they started to restrict the data that came out of MTGO dailies because formats were being solved too fast. It likely was dominant and everywhere online, I've heard it was a cheap deck.

[Dice_Box]

I don't mind the Top ban. But I would mind if WotC starts getting hands on with the banned list.
I have to agree with you here. (Dont let it get to your head :tongue:) Right now the talk that DRS is next feels premature as fuck to me. For a long time I have had one deck in my sights, that target has been taken down. I have come to understand that Brainstorm is not going to be touched and thus no longer care to think on it. Since the only other card I feel really needs to go won't be, I am hoping we have a long period of stability with unbannings marking the large events that occur.

To the comments that DRS is next: This is Legacy, wait until at lest we have reports what you feel is going to happen has played out. A year to 18 months I think is a good amount of time to work out what comes of this.


The difference in Vintage is that they seem to be weighing heavily on one heavily inbred small metagame in the VSL. If the legacy league on MODO takes off it's a great thing, but I really hope that because we still have some large legacy tourney every month or two that any future decisions wouldn't rest solely on the Legacy MODO league
We also as a format do not have a single or small group of voices that speak for us with broad appeal. We have our people that we as a community look to, but they are not really seen from the outside as voices for the format. I would happily talk of Julian and Stephen as equals in their respective fields and weight within the formats they have become titans of, outside of the formats I would argue Stephen's voice reaches out a greater distance that Julian's does. Granted, I speak as an insider of both the Legacy and Vintage formats so I may be wrong, but that is my personal perception.

So I am not sure that the VLS field itself gets more weight so much as the voices that come from it reach out past their epicenter. Legacy, without this broadcast, has a hamstrung reach that Vintage has found and delivered. This is not not because of a lack of voices worthy of the role though. I do not like personally Joe Lossett for some of his behaviour on this site but I do respect his views on the format. I would be happy if he was a voice that, aside with Julian, Reid, Bob Huang and should she wish to come back and speak, Feline Longmore all were public voices for us. I know that there are others too, Long for example, but I can not list everyone who I feel would be fit for this role. We would be here all day. I would also state these are not all people to whom I agree, but one can not have true change in an echo chamber.

This is a format I love, and it is a format I wish I could have more of a voice in. I do my part once a month as a small scale data cruncher, but as a man who can not write articles, (I have tried 3 times this year and I never manage to) can not make events outside of my local sphere and can not even claim I am a good player I must lend my voice to others to carry. At this stage I feel like the people whom that weight must rest on are doing what they can, but until some time as a true megaphone rests in their hands we are still going to sit without equals to the VSL and its influence.

[Lemnear]

I don't think they'll ban Julian till the 16th. They need to gather some data, right?

Following the logic of Tom LaPille, he just needs to lose against Julian in the MTGO practice room

[DarthVicious]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mkd6JkfI4yk

It's just too perfect for the current state of things.

[Ronald Deuce]

How many times does it need to be shown that the "explanations" in the B&R announcement is solely PR pitch? Spin, nothing more. This doesn't mean it can't have elements of truth, or be based on some facts.

That'd actually be even worse.


You don't need their explanations, you have logic you can use. Somewhat valuable life lesson: look what people do, not what they say.

Don't worry; I'm one step ahead of you there (I follow politics and live in America). I don't think they'd lie, though; they don't stand to gain anything, especially when people get so angry about their decision-making.

[H]

That'd actually be even worse.

What would be worse?


Don't worry; I'm one step ahead of you there (I follow politics and live in America). I don't think they'd lie, though; they don't stand to gain anything, especially when people get so angry about their decision-making.

I never said they lie in the "explanations," just that they are PR statements. Like any other PR statements, they are meant to spin something. It's true, they have no need to lie. They do, however, have a "need" to not state the entire truth and there are plenty of reasons why this is the case, none of which need be nefarious, but rather pragmatic. Just because you spin something, doesn't mean it wasn't true, or necessary, just means you are going to put it into a context which may be simplified, exaggerated, imagined, pragmatic, etc., when the fact of the matter is the answer is subtle and nuanced and much harder to explain.

My hunch has been, for years now, that "data" means little in the grand scheme of Wizard's B&R decisions. While I have no way to confirm this, anecdotal evidence, like their usual "explanations" gives me the strong impression that decisions are made on feelings and perceptions. Data may be used, or not, but the process is far less scientific than most would think. Like all feelings and intuitions, they'll be hard to fully rationalize, even when correct. This is why all the "explanations" we get as usually somewhat incoherent and somewhat illogical. They are post-hoc rationalizations of intuition-based decisions. That doesn't make them wrong, just makes them non-data driven.

[PirateKing]

You're correct H, read through the spin and it's entirely:

CARDNAME is banned.
Explanation: We're a business and we believe this will make us more money over time
Anything on top of that is just koolaid

[Crimhead]

They were clever to give us two explanations and claim it was a combination of factors.

One explanation is easy to argue against. The combined effect of two unrelated factors is more vague, and less vulnerable to critique.

[vnayin]

At least they are trying now with the B&R explanations. I was bored and looked up the B&R when Earthcraft got hit to see if it actually was dominant at the time and found this one line gem.

http://www.wizards.com/dci/main.asp?x=Banned_Restricted_List_0303

[Lava Snacks]

Never will and never should happen, but what price do you think I'd see for Tabernacle on the Complain About Prices thread if Fastbond were unbanned :laugh:.

[Darkenslight]

This seems to be the current ban logic in all formats, witht he exception of Mirrorman in Standard:

Look at me, I'm the DCI! (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=9771&type=card)

[Purple Blood]

How many times does it need to be shown that the "explanations" in the B&R announcement is solely PR pitch? Spin, nothing more. This doesn't mean it can't have elements of truth, or be based on some facts. You don't need their explanations, you have logic you can use. Somewhat valuable life lesson: look what people do, not what they say.

I'm pretty sure they saw Zvi's article (https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/pro-tour-copycat/) and realized what was about to happen. Kuddos for at least realizing they fucked up and fixing it.

I'm almost 100% positive the real reason they banned Top was because Miracles was the best deck for so long the metagame was more or less solved. People say it "warped" the meta but what it really did was freeze the meta. With the top deck never changing there is no cycle of predator/prey. With a ban there's a chance for big changes, revival of old builds, and possibly even a new deck to emerge.

[H]

I'm almost 100% positive the real reason they banned Top was because Miracles was the best deck for so long the metagame was more or less solved. People say it "warped" the meta but what it really did was freeze the meta. With the top deck never changing there is no cycle of predator/prey. With a ban there's a chance for big changes, revival of old builds, and possibly even a new deck to emerge.

I think that is only part of it, but yes, the meta was quite stale.

What they have access to and we never will is also the actual data for sanctioned play. We'll never know exactly what attendance looked like outside big marque events. This could have factored in the the choice.

What we also won't know, for a while, is new cards/designs coming out that Top might well have been even more overpowered with.

These are things they also would certainly not be apt to disclose in a B&R announcement.

Like I said before, I feel reasonably confident that this is yet another Mystical Tutor case and future us will look back on it's (fairly obvious) necessity.

[Purple Blood]

I think that is only part of it, but yes, the meta was quite stale.

What they have access to and we never will is also the actual data for sanctioned play. We'll never know exactly what attendance looked like outside big marque events. This could have factored in the the choice.

What we also won't know, for a while, is new cards/designs coming out that Top might well have been even more overpowered with.

These are things they also would certainly not be apt to disclose in a B&R announcement.

Like I said before, I feel reasonably confident that this is yet another Mystical Tutor case and future us will look back on it's (fairly obvious) necessity.

If its new cards that haven't been printed then the timing is curious.

But I agree with what you said about the ban being a good thing. I'm in favor of the ban and if another control deck can emerge then it will be a great ban.

What I would love to see is R/W getting some busted cards to bring it on the level of B/G. I feel like there is sufficient design space that hasn't been explored in that combination of colors that could open the door to a wider range of decks.

[Crimhead]

What I would love to see is R/W getting some busted cards to bring it on the level of B/G. I feel like there is sufficient design space that hasn't been explored in that combination of colors that could open the door to a wider range of decks.

:r::w: Bombs are less scary with Miracles not being an issue.

It would be fun to see something hyper-aggressive in those colours that put a :r::w: Sligh deck on the map.
Otherwise maybe a midrange card to push Patriot Blade?
I don't really think Blood & Taxes needs to get any better though!

[Hanni]

Cruel Lightningmancer
R/W
Creature - Goblin Wizard
Haste, First Strike
R, Tap: Deal two damage to target creature.
W, Tap: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You lose life equal to that permanents converted mana cost.
1/1

Delicious.

[CptHaddock]

Cruel Lightningmancer
R/W
Creature - Human Wizard
Haste
R, Tap: Deal two damage to target creature.
W, Tap: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You lose life equal to that permanents converted mana cost.
1/2

Delicious.

Powercreeping Viashino Heretic and Grim Lavamancer. Sign me up fam.

[Hanni]

Actually, make it a 1/1 but add First Strike.

Will edit.

Seems about as pushed as Deathrite Shaman.

[ToadFlinger]

Actually, make it a 1/1 but add First Strike.

Will edit.

Seems about as pushed as Deathrite Shaman.

Nah, you have to have it work off the graveyard or something, because that makes it balanced

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

people talking about bans already? we've got the ban everyones been clamoring for for years. now time to see the unbans goddamnit. I honestly would be way happier if they unbanned Mind Twist, Mana Drain, Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Frantic Search and Survival of the Fittest instead of banning SDT or anyother card in the format. I was highly disappointed that they didn't unban anything along with the SDT ban which kills the "prisoner exchange" narrative. Whatever they did that got WotC to ban SDT, they should do the same to get them unbanning shit. I'd bet a lot of money that Mind Twist will effect the format no more than Black Vise did, earthcraft and goblin recruiter will probably help enchantress and goblins, both of which are tier 3 decks in need of help right now. Frantic Search and SotF will probably make a decent impact on legacy but it won't be broken.

[ToadFlinger]

people talking about bans already? we've got the ban everyones been clamoring for for years. now time to see the unbans goddamnit. I honestly would be way happier if they unbanned Mind Twist, Mana Drain, Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Frantic Search and Survival of the Fittest instead of banning SDT or anyother card in the format. I was highly disappointed that they didn't unban anything along with the SDT ban which kills the "prisoner exchange" narrative. Whatever they did that got WotC to ban SDT, they should do the same to get them unbanning shit. I'd bet a lot of money that Mind Twist will effect the format no more than Black Vise did, earthcraft and goblin recruiter will probably help enchantress and goblins, both of which are tier 3 decks in need of help right now. Frantic Search and SotF will probably make a decent impact on legacy but it won't be broken.

I think Goblin Recruiter could be unbanned. I don't think it's all that good, like Entomb. I would like to see GRecruiter followed by Ringleader, then getting Cabal Therapy'ed

[jimmythegreek]

Cruel Lightningmancer
R/W
Creature - Human Wizard
Haste, First Strike
R, Tap: Deal two damage to target creature.
W, Tap: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You lose life equal to that permanents converted mana cost.
1/1

Delicious.

Goblin wizard! Hell, id pay 1R/W if it were a goblin.

[Crimhead]

people talking about bans already? we've got the ban everyones been clamoring for for years. now time to see the unbans goddamnit. I honestly would be way happier if they unbanned Mind Twist, Mana Drain, Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Frantic Search and Survival of the Fittest instead of banning SDT or anyother card in the format. I was highly disappointed that they didn't unban anything along with the SDT ban which kills the "prisoner exchange" narrative. Whatever they did that got WotC to ban SDT, they should do the same to get them unbanning shit. I'd bet a lot of money that Mind Twist will effect the format no more than Black Vise did, earthcraft and goblin recruiter will probably help enchantress and goblins, both of which are tier 3 decks in need of help right now. Frantic Search and SotF will probably make a decent impact on legacy but it won't be broken.

Mana Drain might go along way to boost Scroll Rack Miracles. A turn three Jace without tapping out should help compensate for lost library fixing.

On the other hand, would Drain be dangerous in Spiral Tide? I know I would have loved to run in back in my candle stick days. Unbanning Drain and FS might prove to be too much.

[Ronald Deuce]

Delicious.

Give it Double Strike and bring back that "untap" mechanic from Shadowmoor.

[Crimhead]

How about:

Flagellation :r::w:
Enchantment
Creatures controlled by an opponent come into play tapped.
Whenever a creature untaps, Flagellation deals 2 damage to that creature.
When Flagellation is put into a graveyard from play, it deals 2 damage to each creature you don't control.

That ought to shift the balance away from BUG a little.

[Hanni]

Goblin wizard! Hell, id pay 1R/W if it were a goblin.

Fixed. Goblin Wizard it is.

[Hopo]

Go back to Salvation or at least to the dedicated thread here with your stupid imaginary cards.

[tescrin]

Cruel Lightningmancer
R/W
Creature - Goblin Wizard
Haste, First Strike
R, Tap: Deal two damage to target creature.
W, Tap: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You lose life equal to that permanents converted mana cost.
1/1

I don't get why the creatures people have posted in a half dozen threads keep having attached card advantage and no grave reliance. They want a strictly better Lavamancer in a half dozen directions before adding all the other stuff


DRS is good, but he:
* Never gains CA
* Is reliant on the graveyard
* Can't do anything if an opponent has a deathrite on the field

IMO, a W/R one needs to fall into a similar thing. Something like:

R/W
Exalted
If a creature you control blocks and is the only creature blocking, it gets +1/+1.
{t}, W - Opponents can't cast more than one spell this turn.
R - Target Creature you Control gains Menace until end of turn. Use this ability only once per turn.
0/1

This gives you a 1/2 effectively, while being helpful in delivering damage and cancelling stalemates (great with Goyf.) It has application against Combo and fair decks without gaining CA every turn or something ridiculous. It additionally provides evasion, which isn't that different from a creature that hits an opponent without targeting.

I get that you look at this and go "Das dum", but this would probably see play. Menace is brutal good on fat, and a Silence whenever you want gives you some combo.

[Lemnear]

I'm almost 100% positive the real reason they banned Top was because Miracles was the best deck for so long the metagame was more or less solved. People say it "warped" the meta but what it really did was freeze the meta. With the top deck never changing there is no cycle of predator/prey. With a ban there's a chance for big changes, revival of old builds, and possibly even a new deck to emerge.

Did you even read the announcement? They literally said that the deck was sitting on top of the metagame and that they had hoped it would go away naturally by printings and metashifts, which wasn't the case, ergo they took action.

Edit:
Ladies, this isn't the card creation thread! It's outright confusing if some Fantasy designs pop up in threads other than the designated one.

[Jander78]

Guys, there's a thread for card creation here! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15217-Obligatory-shitty-card-creation-thread) Either go back to discussing a Brainstorm ban, or post your card ideas over there.

[Darkenslight]

Cruel Lightningmancer
R/W
Creature - Goblin Wizard
Haste, First Strike
R, Tap: Deal two damage to target creature.
W, Tap: Destroy target artifact or enchantment. You lose life equal to that permanents converted mana cost.
1/1

Delicious.

Trash. IT doesn't ping players for no cost.

[Crimhead]

Guys, there's a thread for card creation here! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15217-Obligatory-shitty-card-creation-thread) Either go back to discussing a Brainstorm ban, or post your card ideas over there.

Sorry, I was being partially facetious.

On topic, I'm not longer sure that Twist is a desired unban. The decks that might want it are Elves and Tezz - and these decks might need a lot less help with Miracles gone.

When the meta shapes up we'll have of a better idea where these decks are and what they might want to run against the field.

[tescrin]

Well, for sure the best decks for Twist are Elves and Tezz; due to them being both Black and mana-accel. But that doesn't mean they'll be the decks best helped by it.

Examples:
* Would you rather twist for 3 or resolve NO? Often it's probably the latter since you win instead of stall
* Would you rather add non-artifacts that hose your opponents hand in a deck that is meant to disable your opponent with Chalice, Sphere, and Bridge? Or would you rather those be artifacts or dudes who support your gameplan?

So while they'll have the best odds of casting it for a bunch and seem like fun inclusions for Timmys, I don't think they actually want it.

What it would likely do is go into every DRS deck in place of Hymn to loosen up the mana-base while offering more potential CA. Even casting it for 4-mana is like casting two separate 2-for-1's. I think people underestimate that turning the card into a variable/color-light:
* Hymn for 3
* [inverse] Painful Truths for 4
* 4-for-1 for 5

is pretty good. If your opponent is a deck who's gained 3 CA off of Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Hymn let's say, you may even out the match with your single top-deck for 4. This is actually why it was banned in the first place.

It's mostly balanced on the fact that since it's not "Draw cards" it's hot garbage if your opponent is lacking cards, or you're too far behind on board.

[PirateKing]

Addendum to April 24, 2017 Banned and Restricted Announcement (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/addendum-april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-26)
Well here is a dangerous precedent to set.

Next B&R Announcement: June 14, 2017 or whenever, who cares, time is a social construct anyways

[niv]

Addendum to April 24, 2017 Banned and Restricted Announcement (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/addendum-april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-26)
Well here is a dangerous precedent to set.

Next B&R Announcement: June 14, 2017 or whenever, who cares, time is a social construct anyways

I can't help but feel like this reinforces the fact that their ban decisions were due to public outcry and not actual (good?) data (despite what they say in the announcement). Unless public outcry is indeed considered 'data' by Wizards. They mention it having 40% of 5-0 and 4-1s, (supposedly an increase from before Amonkhet) but it was the first time Standard was played with the new cards, wasn't it? It feels extremely rushed to me regardless.

But I still can't believe they let this kind of interaction slip through their playtesting in the first place.

[rufus]

I can't help but feel like this reinforces the fact that their ban decisions were due to public outcry and not actual (good?) data (despite what they say in the announcement). ...


It may well be that the data that forced their hand is not the win rate cited in the announcement, but rather a lack of sales of the new set or participation in standard events.

[Dice_Box]

Timing is one thing, the fact we are seeing Standard Bans to me is the more interesting note.

[phg22]

Patrick Sullivan on CED talks theorized it had to do with internal WotC politics and after two days the Pro ban side was able to force the no ban side to capitulate because of the outcry. I also agree with his assessment that the explanation (about MTGO data) is almost certainly a lie and very concerning if true.

[Skyl3lazer]

I can't help but feel like this reinforces the fact that their ban decisions were due to public outcry and not actual (good?) data (despite what they say in the announcement). Unless public outcry is indeed considered 'data' by Wizards. They mention it having 40% of 5-0 and 4-1s, (supposedly an increase from before Amonkhet) but it was the first time Standard was played with the new cards, wasn't it? It feels extremely rushed to me regardless.

But I still can't believe they let this kind of interaction slip through their playtesting in the first place.

They can get better stats than straight win rate as well, it could be that they look at it's winrate vs games where manglehorn resolved, or some other hatecard, and saw that it was STILL favored.

[phg22]

On unbans, its interesting we got Worldgorger when Cruise left, and black vise with DTT's exit. Nothing unbanned here to me sends a signal that they aren't close to taking anything off the current list. The last legacy unban unaccompanied by a ban was Land Tax in 2012 (the nearest ban being Misstep almost a year prior). Over in modern, no card has ever been unbanned except when another was banned. Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek in modern are the most recent unbans and I don't think they support the "prisoner exchange" policy many believe exist. They didn't come off when Twin (#FREETWIN) and Summer Bloom were banned, but when Eye of Ugin was hit. I say this because everyone knew Eye and/or Eldrazi Temple were going and their hold on the format was so strong that nothing of the previous 3 months really informed what the post Twin/Bloom meta would look like.

[morgan_coke]

I'll just say it, issuing an emergency ban just days after your regular ban announcement is insane, and a sign that things are seriously awry at WotC.

They've got some real problems in that house and they are affecting the game strongly.

[Claymore]

The design cycle is what, 1.5 years out? I wonder if we'll see anything else completely retarded come out before they "change" their process.

Having to ban 3 cards or whatever now is a serious design issue in such a small format.

[Sidneyious]

Now I have ever to take top out of 5 non blue
decks.

Yeah for my decks sucking again!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Sidneyious]

I was curious how the meta is shaking up after Aether Revolt and the release of Fatal Push & Walking Ballista, as well as the continued effect of recent cards like Leovold, Emissary of Trest.

No huge analysis, but I figured I'd post it. I don't at all invalidate smaller events and top 16/32 finishes but I was curious (partially because we already have analysis that factors in smaller events) about each deck's percentage of top 8 slots since Aether Revolt's release (3 months ago), only in 8-rounders and up, so 129 players+.

Winter Legacy 4Seasons; SCG Classic - Baltimore; Eternal Extravaganza 6; MKM Series 2017 Milan; Eternal Weekend 2017; SCG Open - Worcester; SCG Classic - Worcester = 56 slots

Miracles: 9 finishes (16.07%)
Elves: 5 finishes (8.93%)
Ad Nauseam Tendrils: 3 finishes (5.36%)
Czech Pile AKA 4-Color Control: 3 finishes (5.36%)
Death & Taxes: 3 finishes (5.36%)
Sneak & Show: 3 finishes (5.36%)
4-Color Delver: 2 finishes (3.57%)
Aggro Loam: 2 finishes (3.57%)
Eldrazi: 2 finishes (3.57%)
Grixis Delver: 2 finishes (3.57%)
Infect: 2 finishes (3.57%)
Mono-Red Sneak Attack: 2 finishes (3.57%)
Shardless BUG: 2 finishes (3.57%)
Team America: 2 finishes (3.57%)
U/G 12-Post: 2 finishes (3.57%)
Aluren: 1 finish (1.79%)
Big Eldrazi: 1 finish (1.79%)
Burn: 1 finish (1.79%)
Dark Bant: 1 finish (1.79%)
Food Chain: 1 finish (1.79%)
Goblins: 1 finish (1.79%)
OmniTell: 1 finish (1.79%)
Reanimator: 1 finish (1.79%)
The Epic Storm: 1 finish (1.79%)
U/R Control: 1 finish (1.79%)
U/R Delver: 1 finish (1.79%)
U/W Spirit Blade: 1 finish (1.79%)

56 decks, 27 different decks
67.86% with Brainstorm

No statement to make. Just sharing my time wasting.

Ok, thoes are the top plays if the deck they chose.
How many other decks did they have e to go through to get there?

1 tes deck in the "finals" but how many tests decks were there total?

How many goblin decks were there?

Do you see where I'm going with the time you seem to think was wasted?

Waste more time and post every players decks.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[UnderwaterGuy]

The design cycle is what, 1.5 years out? I wonder if we'll see anything else completely retarded come out before they "change" their process.

Having to ban 3 cards or whatever now is a serious design issue in such a small format.

There's already been 4 cards banned in Standard this year. The funny thing is that it's not a case of the cards being power crept up too far, these cards were specifically broken for Standard. (iirc) Last time we had bannings there was Caw Blade and the banned cards were so powerful that they became eternal format staples. And I know Emrakul, the Promised End has shown some playability in the eternal formats but it's not that crazy. The cat and copter will probably not ever be big cards in other formats where they are much more vulnerable.

It's an interesting situation and the problem is that they managed Standard so poorly that there weren't good deck choices and "answer" cards to counter the dominant strategies. It's good that older formats aren't being hurt badly by new broken cards though.

[Ronald Deuce]

The design cycle is what, 1.5 years out? I wonder if we'll see anything else completely retarded come out before they "change" their process.

Having to ban 3 cards or whatever now is a serious design issue in such a small format.

Last time that happened before the tentacle-copters ban was in Mirrodin block.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Yeah, for banned-cards I really expect something more powerful things. The affinity cards, Stoneforge, and JTMS were so much more impactful on the game overall. It shows how little Standard resembles the previous state of the game.

[rufus]

I think the cat could find a combo deck in the future. The other cards aren't nearly so impressive.

[Scott]

Ok, thoes are the top plays if the deck they chose.
How many other decks did they have e to go through to get there?

1 tes deck in the "finals" but how many tests decks were there total?

How many goblin decks were there?

Do you see where I'm going with the time you seem to think was wasted?

Waste more time and post every players decks.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I'm working from top 8 data and don't know every player's deck..

[Crimhead]

Yeah, for banned-cards I really expect something more powerful things. The affinity cards, Stoneforge, and JTMS were so much more impactful on the game overall. It shows how little Standard resembles the previous state of the game.
Yup.

In the past a ban in Standard meant a broken card. Nowadays the card is fine but the format is broken.

[Barook]

The design cycle is what, 1.5 years out? I wonder if we'll see anything else completely retarded come out before they "change" their process.

Having to ban 3 cards or whatever now is a serious design issue in such a small format.
They included answers in Amonkhet after seeing PT Kaladesh, so they got faster/more flexible.


There's already been 4 cards banned in Standard this year. The funny thing is that it's not a case of the cards being power crept up too far, these cards were specifically broken for Standard. (iirc) Last time we had bannings there was Caw Blade and the banned cards were so powerful that they became eternal format staples. And I know Emrakul, the Promised End has shown some playability in the eternal formats but it's not that crazy. The cat and copter will probably not ever be big cards in other formats where they are much more vulnerable.

It's an interesting situation and the problem is that they managed Standard so poorly that there weren't good deck choices and "answer" cards to counter the dominant strategies. It's good that older formats aren't being hurt badly by new broken cards though.
That's what you get when you dumb down the game so much that just somewhat powerful cards to broken in half.


Patrick Sullivan on CED talks theorized it had to do with internal WotC politics and after two days the Pro ban side was able to force the no ban side to capitulate because of the outcry. I also agree with his assessment that the explanation (about MTGO data) is almost certainly a lie and very concerning if true.
I wonder how much the new CEO is responsible for that. WotC was always known for this kind of shit, but it was less obvious than now.

[CptHaddock]

Yup.

In the past a ban in Standard meant a broken card. Nowadays the card is fine but the format is broken.

Weren't most standard bannings roughly the same? I feel like if JTMS was printed now he'd still be broken but way less than when caw was a thing. Seems like the splinter twin combo in a format where your interaction is only Magma Spray or killing them it's pretty broken. The best solution is to just print answers to things whether it be creatures, walkers, whatever.

[Lord Seth]

There's already been 4 cards banned in Standard this year. The funny thing is that it's not a case of the cards being power crept up too far, these cards were specifically broken for Standard. (iirc) Last time we had bannings there was Caw Blade and the banned cards were so powerful that they became eternal format staples. And I know Emrakul, the Promised End has shown some playability in the eternal formats but it's not that crazy. The cat and copter will probably not ever be big cards in other formats where they are much more vulnerable.It's not even just Caw-Blade. Affinity was a great deck in Extended when it got banned out of Standard (not sure if it was a thing in Legacy then, but I don't think Legacy was much of a thing then, having only recently been split from Vintage).

Shortly before that was Skullclamp, which was Skullclamp. Moving on.

We have to go back a decent number of years before we get to the previous Standard bannings, the infamous Tempest-Urza's Standard. I'm not sure about Urza's Saga. Oh, of the 10 cards banned, 8 of them were banned in larger formats as well, but I'm not sure if Recurring Nightmare and Fluctuator, the cards banned in Standard but not elsewhere, were good enough in Extended or Type 1/1.5, anyone know?

In regards to bannings/restrictions before that, all of them bit the dust in at least one other format around the time with the exception of Hymn to Tourach, but that card is still a decent force in Legacy.


It's an interesting situation and the problem is that they managed Standard so poorly that there weren't good deck choices and "answer" cards to counter the dominant strategies. It's good that older formats aren't being hurt badly by new broken cards though.Like I've said before, the bannings after Urza's Saga were targeting specific cards or strategies that got through in being too powerful. Once they were removed, things went back to normal. Affinity was overpowered, but Standard didn't need more bannings after they dispensed with that deck. Same with Caw-Blade. Now they banned a bunch of cards and then Standard was still a problem. Part of that is the fact they let this combo through, but even without it, it seems like Standard was still in a problematic place.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Weren't most standard bannings roughly the same? I feel like if JTMS was printed now he'd still be broken but way less than when caw was a thing. Seems like the splinter twin combo in a format where your interaction is only Magma Spray or killing them it's pretty broken. The best solution is to just print answers to things whether it be creatures, walkers, whatever.

No, I don't think most Standard bans are like these at all. Look at the list of previous banned-in-Standard cards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/arcana/brief-history-standard-banned-list-2015-07-13 I am definitely assuming that JTMS would be broken in Standard right now if these other 4 cards needed bans. Of course his Brainstorm synergy with Squadron Hawk was part of that broken deck but we play JTMS in Legacy and Vintage juuust fine without any birds to combo him with. There are other factors of course, I have no idea what removal they're running in Stnadard but I'm assuming it is weak and Jace would be very powerful.

The majority of those cards are still very powerful in Legacy/Vintage/EDH and some are even banned in Legacy. There are only a few cards that have been banned in Standard that aren't relevant today and those that aren't still relevant to us(I'm thinking of Mind Over Matter) were still very overpowered at the time and are powerful even if they aren't ban-worthy in Legacy or Vintage or EDH. Standard bannings used to be for cards that were mistakenly made overpowered but that's not happening with the current 4 bans.

In the past 10 years there have only been 6 cards banned in Standard and 4 of them are basically slightly above average power cards that were banned just in 2017. There is something deeply wrong with how wotc is managing this game and it can't be denied. I haven't played Standard since Lorwyn so the impact on that format is not important to me but it's a clear and objective measure of how bad the current team at wotc is at their job. I don't care about playing Standard but it's worrying to see how inept the people that control the game I love are.

And it is novel to see these non-broken spells being banned all of a sudden.

edit: @Lord Seth, Recurring Nightmare is still banned in EDH even if it's not seeing play in the 60 card formats. The card doesn't make the cut by today's standard for power but it's no joke.

[Zombie]

We have to go back a decent number of years before we get to the previous Standard bannings, the infamous Tempest-Urza's Standard. I'm not sure about Urza's Saga. Oh, of the 10 cards banned, 8 of them were banned in larger formats as well, but I'm not sure if Recurring Nightmare and Fluctuator, the cards banned in Standard but not elsewhere, were good enough in Extended or Type 1/1.5, anyone know?

Recurring Nightmare's seen some play in Nic Fit a few years back if memory serves, and is a staple in GBW value reanimator decks in all sorts of Highlander formats where it can do hilarious things with stuff like Karmic Guide, Zur, Titans, Thragtusk and the like (were half of the stuff I listed not on EDH ban list :P)


In the past 10 years there have only been 6 cards banned in Standard and 4 of them are basically slightly above average power cards that were banned just in 2017. There is something deeply wrong with how wotc is managing this game and it can't be denied. I haven't played Standard since Lorwyn so the impact on that format is not important to me but it's a clear and objective measure of how bad the current team at wotc is at their job. I don't care about playing Standard but it's worrying to see how inept the people that control the game I love are.

And it is novel to see these non-broken spells being banned all of a sudden.

I mean, hell, just look at TS-Lor era decks:

Lark-Blink (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Reveillark_Combo_deck)
Demigod Red (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Red_Aggro)
GR Snow Ramp (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Mana_Ramp_deck) (GR ramp was interesting once upon a time O_o)
GB Elf Rock (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Elves_deck)
Doran Rock (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Doran_Rock_deck)
Faeries (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_U/b_Faeries_deck)

Would these be terribly likely to care? Like, yeah, nice combo you have there. Here's a Teferi's Moat on white. Have fun with those cats? Or idk just shove a Flame Javelin at the cat's face. Or Cryptic all the cats down because meh. If you even have the pieces in your hand, Thoughtseize is a card...

[Lord Seth]

Recurring Nightmare's seen some play in Nic Fit a few years back if memory serves, and is a staple in GBW value reanimator decks in all sorts of Highlander formats where it can do hilarious things with stuff like Karmic Guide, Zur, Titans, Thragtusk and the like (were half of the stuff I listed not on EDH ban list :P)I wasn't really talking about a few years ago. I mean back around the time Recurring Nightmare and Fluctuator were banned in Standard.


I mean, hell, just look at TS-Lor era decks:

Lark-Blink (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Reveillark_Combo_deck)
Demigod Red (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Red_Aggro)
GR Snow Ramp (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Mana_Ramp_deck) (GR ramp was interesting once upon a time O_o)
GB Elf Rock (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Elves_deck)
Doran Rock (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_Doran_Rock_deck)
Faeries (http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Standard_U/b_Faeries_deck)

Would these be terribly likely to care? Like, yeah, nice combo you have there. Here's a Teferi's Moat on white. Have fun with those cats? Or idk just shove a Flame Javelin at the cat's face. Or Cryptic all the cats down because meh. If you even have the pieces in your hand, Thoughtseize is a card...Well, the deck could win without the combo, which was part of its power. Still, I do wonder how the CopyCat combo would fare against past Standard decks. It'd actually be pretty funny if it turns out to be really mediocre against past decks...

[Lava Snacks]

I'm convinced, we're storming the inepts at WotC. Violent overthrow is the only option.

[Kanti]

I wasn't really talking about a few years ago. I mean back around the time Recurring Nightmare and Fluctuator were banned in Standard.

Well, the deck could win without the combo, which was part of its power. Still, I do wonder how the CopyCat combo would fare against past Standard decks. It'd actually be pretty funny if it turns out to be really mediocre against past decks...

Load it up on Cockatrice vs UB Faeries, basically the Miracles of Lorwyn standard. You beat 4 Spellstutters, 4 Cryptics, and a couple Slaughter Pacts, and you win bud, you win.

[Zombie]

Load it up on Cockatrice vs UB Faeries, basically the Miracles of Lorwyn standard. You beat 4 Spellstutters, 4 Cryptics, and a couple Slaughter Pacts, and you win bud, you win.

And a couple Flashfreezes. Playing fair vs. Bitterblossom, Scion of Oona, Mistbind Clique and Ancestral Vision sounds like fun too.

Reveillark could be another fun test - the deck's matchups basically went:
The format - Bye
Faeries - RIP
If Faeries beat everything, Lark crushed everything except Faeries (and Merfolk, which had an about even MU vs. both. Who likes full fat Merfolk? (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2008-08-24#william_cavaglieri))

Found another gem that was developed late in the TS-Lor format's lifetime: Five color control by the name Quick (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2008-08-24#guillaume_wafo-tapa) 'n Toast (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2008-08-24#philipp_summereder).

[Darkenslight]

And a couple Flashfreezes. Playing fair vs. Bitterblossom, Scion of Oona, Mistbind Clique and Ancestral Vision sounds like fun too.

Reveillark could be another fun test - the deck's matchups basically went:
The format - Bye
Faeries - RIP
If Faeries beat everything, Lark crushed everything except Faeries (and Merfolk, which had an about even MU vs. both. Who likes full fat Merfolk? (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2008-08-24#william_cavaglieri))

Found another gem that was developed late in the TS-Lor format's lifetime: Five color control by the name Quick (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2008-08-24#guillaume_wafo-tapa) 'n Toast (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/event-coverage/top-8-decklists-2008-08-24#philipp_summereder).

You forgot Dragonstorm, with a Turn 1 kill hand, and consistent T4 kill on the play.

Man, I really do miss TS-Lorwyn Standard.

[Zombie]

You forgot Dragonstorm, with a Turn 1 kill hand, and consistent T4 kill on the play.

Man, I really do miss TS-Lorwyn Standard.

And Elfball and Melira combo and if stretching a bit Brine lock...

[Sidneyious]

In recent events, Deathrite Shaman was in about 55% of Decks.

We need a ban on drs.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Zombie]

In recent events, Deathrite Shaman was in about 55% of Decks.

We need a ban on drs.

After Brainstorm and Ponder have bit the dust, sure.

[Dice_Box]

Can't we finish burying the current body before we seek out another?

[tescrin]

It's not even just Caw-Blade. Affinity was a great deck in Extended when it got banned out of Standard (not sure if it was a thing in Legacy then, but I don't think Legacy was much of a thing then, having only recently been split from Vintage).

Shortly before that was Skullclamp, which was Skullclamp. Moving on.

We have to go back a decent number of years before we get to the previous Standard bannings, the infamous Tempest-Urza's Standard.

This is true, but it may be that people seeing that one Standard was basically Siege Rhino everywhere and another standard before that was mostly mono-black and before that it was Sphinx Rev (i think?), etc.. was maybe chipping away at they're willingness to commit to "let's let people rot in this forsaken world" for awhile.

[LOLWut]

In recent events, Deathrite Shaman was in about 55% of Decks.

Nope.

[Chatto]

LOL! Just mere days after the ban of STD, and people are already screaming for the head of DRS...

'And so it goes on, day after day, year after year. Slime in this ear, slime in that ear... Don't you ever yearn for change?'

WotC did what it had to do, and I sincerly hope they leave Legacy alone for a while. Change is here, enjoy this new found freedom, and go with the flow. Stop screaming for the next ban, it doesn't make you look good.

[the Thin White Duke]

We need a ban on drs.


Let's step back for a moment and get realistic.
Wizards is EXTREMELY reluctant to ban creatures.
There are a total of 2 creatures currently banned in Legacy because they enable dumb combos (and Goblin Recruiter is borderline)
People need to calm down about banning DRS.
After all, it dies to removal.

[Ronald Deuce]

We need a ban on drs.

Yeah! I hate good cards, too.

[Hanni]

The ban DRS arguments sound alot like the ban Tarmogoyf arguments from 2008.

[Sidneyious]

After Brainstorm and Ponder have bit the dust, sure.
Unlikely as drs is taking over, they are not as degenerate as a 1 Mana answer to 90% of decks.

Valhalla's gate

[Hanni]

Unlikely as drs is taking over, they are not as degenerate as a 1 Mana answer to 90% of decks.

Valhalla's gate

So they should have banned DRS, and not Top, to have contained Miracles?

[Kanti]

I wanted to shitpost, and probably will at the end of the post, but I rather add my two cents. I think what gets people riled up the most in the community in when cards become ubiquitous, and phase out other cards. Tarmogoyf got so much backlash because until then, and really since then, there was no vanilla two drop that was THAT good. You start at Grizzly Bear, work yourself to Werebear, and then Goyf comes out and invalidates every 2cc that isn't a hatebear. People like options, they like diversity, and there isn't any diversity in having a 2cc drop that not only every deck can play, but every deck WANTS To play.

With that said, Goyf was heavy, heavy, heavy FOTM. Goyfstill, Goyfidarity, Mono Red Goyf, TEGoyf, Canadian Goyfhold. Every deck tried to build around Goyf because it was the best creature of it's time. DRS is really the same, it is the best creature out right now, period, and so the numbers might be a bit saturated. And this is what bothers people, me included, so much. There usually isn't a "best creature" in a format as big as Legacy, as it's all relative. DRS though, in any match up, is one of the best cards you can resolve.

I am biased as hell though. I love my graveyard, and have been trying to play spells out of it since Odyssey. Main-deck gy hate is not something I'm excited about.

tl;dr- Ban DRS, make my Snapcasters better plz.

edit: I think these results might show what I mean- http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy/#top8decks
Top 8 at the MKM. 3 combo decks that obviously won't play Deathrite Shaman as they are combo, and the other 5 decks all play Deathrite. Grixis Delver, Stoneblade, Elves, Punishing Loam, and Food Chain. None of those decks resemble one another in the slightest, from mana-bases to play style they are all wildy different. What do they have in common though? You guessed it, they play the best creature in the format, even if they have to splash an extra color for him.

[bruizar]

I wanted to shitpost, and probably will at the end of the post, but I rather add my two cents. I think what gets people riled up the most in the community in when cards become ubiquitous, and phase out other cards. Tarmogoyf got so much backlash because until then, and really since then, there was no vanilla two drop that was THAT good. You start at Grizzly Bear, work yourself to Werebear, and then Goyf comes out and invalidates every 2cc that isn't a hatebear. People like options, they like diversity, and there isn't any diversity in having a 2cc drop that not only every deck can play, but every deck WANTS To play.

With that said, Goyf was heavy, heavy, heavy FOTM. Goyfstill, Goyfidarity, Mono Red Goyf, TEGoyf, Canadian Goyfhold. Every deck tried to build around Goyf because it was the best creature of it's time. DRS is really the same, it is the best creature out right now, period, and so the numbers might be a bit saturated. And this is what bothers people, me included, so much. There usually isn't a "best creature" in a format as big as Legacy, as it's all relative. DRS though, in any match up, is one of the best cards you can resolve.

I am biased as hell though. I love my graveyard, and have been trying to play spells out of it since Odyssey. Main-deck gy hate is not something I'm excited about.

tl;dr- Ban DRS, make my Snapcasters better plz.

edit: I think these results might show what I mean- http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy/#top8decks
Top 8 at the MKM. 3 combo decks that obviously won't play Deathrite Shaman as they are combo, and the other 5 decks all play Deathrite. Grixis Delver, Stoneblade, Elves, Punishing Loam, and Food Chain. None of those decks resemble one another in the slightest, from mana-bases to play style they are all wildy different. What do they have in common though? You guessed it, they play the best creature in the format, even if they have to splash an extra color for him.

There will always be a best card. You ban DRS you have to ban Snapcaster next. Before you know it, we're back at grizzly bear... Eternal should be home to powerful plays

[Chatto]

What is going on here? The last body isn't even cold yet, and some of us are already screaming 'off with his head'... I agree with Bruizar here, there will always be a best card, and besides 'it dies to removal' is VERY relevant here.

[rubblekill]

If they ban my card, then they HAVE to ban your card as well, right?
/s

[Megadeus]

I wanted to shitpost, and probably will at the end of the post, but I rather add my two cents. I think what gets people riled up the most in the community in when cards become ubiquitous, and phase out other cards. Tarmogoyf got so much backlash because until then, and really since then, there was no vanilla two drop that was THAT good. You start at Grizzly Bear, work yourself to Werebear, and then Goyf comes out and invalidates every 2cc that isn't a hatebear. People like options, they like diversity, and there isn't any diversity in having a 2cc drop that not only every deck can play, but every deck WANTS To play.

With that said, Goyf was heavy, heavy, heavy FOTM. Goyfstill, Goyfidarity, Mono Red Goyf, TEGoyf, Canadian Goyfhold. Every deck tried to build around Goyf because it was the best creature of it's time. DRS is really the same, it is the best creature out right now, period, and so the numbers might be a bit saturated. And this is what bothers people, me included, so much. There usually isn't a "best creature" in a format as big as Legacy, as it's all relative. DRS though, in any match up, is one of the best cards you can resolve.

I am biased as hell though. I love my graveyard, and have been trying to play spells out of it since Odyssey. Main-deck gy hate is not something I'm excited about.

tl;dr- Ban DRS, make my Snapcasters better plz.

edit: I think these results might show what I mean- http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-frankfurt-2017-legacy/#top8decks
Top 8 at the MKM. 3 combo decks that obviously won't play Deathrite Shaman as they are combo, and the other 5 decks all play Deathrite. Grixis Delver, Stoneblade, Elves, Punishing Loam, and Food Chain. None of those decks resemble one another in the slightest, from mana-bases to play style they are all wildy different. What do they have in common though? You guessed it, they play the best creature in the format, even if they have to splash an extra color for him.

Take your whole last paragraph and replace death rite with Brainstorm and it works even better.

Seriously, if anybody is talking about a Deathrite ban and using ubiquity as a reason but defends or ignores brainstorm then your whole argument is entirely invalid. When DRS makes up 28/32 top decks at a GP let me know

[Gheizen64]

Unlikely as drs is taking over, they are not as degenerate as a 1 Mana answer to 90% of decks.

Valhalla's gate

So we should unban Ancestral Recall too? Case it's not a 1 mana answer of 90% of decks, it just go in every deck :thinking:

[Dr_D]

Unlikely as drs is taking over, they are not as degenerate as a 1 Mana answer to 90% of decks.

Valhalla's gate

How is DRS an answer to 90% of decks? Can I toss DRS in Moat Stompy to make it tier 1?

[ToadFlinger]

I think that the most disgusting part of Deathrite Shaman is that if you want to beat Deathrite, your best option is Deathrite. Comparing Deathrite to Brainstorm is a little odd. No matter how you slice it, Brainstorm requires some skill to play, and the best answers don't let you play Brainstorm (except Leovold). I'm glad Grim Lavamancer can be cast off Underground Sea, accelerates your mana, gains life, blocks 1/x's, and counters other ones. And gives you a much better game one against decks that use the graveyard. I always love the idea of needing to remove a one-drop that doesn't have to attack to be useful, especially in a deck that isn't weak to sweepers.

[tescrin]

Can I toss DRS in Moat Stompy to make it tier 1?

Yes.


..yes? :confused:
..hm


Yes.

[Megadeus]

Yes.


..yes? :confused:
..hm


Yes.
Bant MO@T fuck you.dec

4 DRS
4 Brainstorm
3 Mo@t
3 VClique
3 Trygon Predator
2 Ojutai, Dragonlord Rapist
2 Scryb Ranger

4 STP
3 Force
Some planeswalkers

[tescrin]

I think that the most disgusting part of Deathrite Shaman is that if you want to beat Deathrite, your best option is Deathrite. Comparing Deathrite to Brainstorm is a little odd. No matter how you slice it, Brainstorm requires some skill to play, and the best answers don't let you play Brainstorm (except Leovold). I'm glad Grim Lavamancer can be cast off Underground Sea, accelerates your mana, gains life, blocks 1/x's, and counters other ones. And gives you a much better game one against decks that use the graveyard. I always love the idea of needing to remove a one-drop that doesn't have to attack to be useful, especially in a deck that isn't weak to sweepers.

But the thing is, every comparison in your post also is super weak:

- Deathrite. Countered (even after being casted for a full turn) by: Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, Kolaghan's Command, Fatal Push, Dismember, Disfigure, DRS, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, Rest in Peace, Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle [yes, even his "mana ability"], Chalice, Daze, Force of Will... others?

In terms of colors thats: R, R, R, RB, B, B, B, G/B, GB, GB, WB, W, W, -, -, -, U, U

And all but the counterspells can wait until you untap.

- Brainstorm. Daze, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Pyroblast, REB.. Leovold.. Sotl?.. Chalice


U, U, U, BUG, R, R, W, -

And all of these are either answers that have to be on the board before hand (proactive), or require instant speed.



Then the Grim Lavamancer. Let's be honest, as this comparison fully misses the best aspect of Lavaman: CA.
Lavaman kills PWs, lavaman kills creatures, lavaman's only problem is that he is worse than Punishing Fire a lot of the time, and the decks that want to use him are typically already using the grave quite a bit. In something like Patriot-Blade; I could see him getting some use if you can manage it with your Snaps.

DRS's problem, and it's not as bad as it could be, is that B has a mana accel. It's not the mana accel, the grave hate, or the clock. It's that B has a mana accel, which helps to make up for B's biggest issue: Tempo Loss.

If U had a 1-mana-accel that was even a 1/1, there's a good chance they'd use it over DRS JUST to pitch to force. a 1/1 with a mana ability would replace DRS in a load of decks, and we *know* it; just cause he'd be blue. If they made B/R DRS with actual-grim lavaman ability but he couldn't hate on Reanimator? People would play that instead, because R would get them CA on a 1-drop; I can almost guarantee it.



Also, why is hating on grave strats maindeck so bad? Everyone uses them now. Lavaman, Snap, Gurmag, DRS, Goyf, Loam, etc.. everything uses it. Having something that helps keep the format stable in terms of the grave actually, IMO, keeps grave decks around. Why? People run less *real* hate. more people *can* hate on the grave deck, but they are often less successful at it in hopes of being more successful elsewhere.

[Lava Snacks]

I ran some tests and he's right. I tossed it in to this previously Tier 1.5 Legacy Shaman tribal deck and thusly invalidated 90% of known decks.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bosk Banneret
4 Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro
4 Hearthcage Giant
4 Lightning Crafter
4 Rage Forger
4 Reach of Branches
4 Sisters of the Flame
4 Homarid Shaman
2 Coat of Arms
4 Cavern of Souls
more lands

[Kanti]

Take your whole last paragraph and replace death rite with Brainstorm and it works even better.

Seriously, if anybody is talking about a Deathrite ban and using ubiquity as a reason but defends or ignores brainstorm then your whole argument is entirely invalid. When DRS makes up 28/32 top decks at a GP let me know

Brainstorm isn't my metric. It's an oppresive card that is played in every list that has Islands and isn't Merfolk. Why would I want to to now play vs a Deathrite in everything but combo just because I'm forced to play x10000000 Brainstorms?

[Megadeus]

Brainstorm isn't my metric. It's an oppresive card that is played in every list that has Islands and isn't Merfolk. Why would I want to to now play vs a Deathrite in everything but combo just because I'm forced to play x10000000 Brainstorms?

The point is, if ubiquity is why it should go, then you have brainstorm, ponder, and probably force that are more ubiquitous than deathrite. However it seems that raw ubiquity isn't the only factor for bans

[Kanti]

The point is, if ubiquity is why it should go, then you have brainstorm, ponder, and probably force that are more ubiquitous than deathrite. However it seems that raw ubiquity isn't the only factor for bans

No, the point is ubiquity is why it should go, and why some others cards should go as well, or have gone as well. TC and DTT are both good examples of this, combined with being big hitters. Also, Brainstorm, Git. Probe, and Ponder at least all cantrips, so it really makes sense that you are going to see a high % of "the best cantrip" in an eternal format. Ban those then you ban Preordain and Serum Visions next. You ban DRS and it's not like Deathblade is going to keep splashing for "the best mana-dork".

[Dice_Box]

No, the point is ubiquity is why it should go, and why some others cards should go as well, or have gone as well. TC and DTT are both good examples of this, combined with being big hitters. Also, Brainstorm, Git. Probe, and Ponder at least all cantrips, so it really makes sense that you are going to see a high % of "the best cantrip" in an eternal format. Ban those then you ban Preordain and Serum Visions next. You ban DRS and it's not like Stoneblade is going to keep splashing for "the best mana-dork".
I don't feel like that's is completely true. My issue with Brainstorm is that it's right now much more powerful than Ponder is.(Or any card is overall. Brainstorms power is way beyond what I feel is healthy, but I wish to state I am not here to debate this. Everyone knows my views, this is an example, not a call for another merry-go-round.) Not that it's the best. I would love to see it take a bullet but I don't see myself ever arguing for Ponder going. I don't remember ever having done so in the past either.

The best is not really a line in the sand. Force is the "Best" counter, but there is no fucking way you will hear me saying I want it banned. Back in 03 when I started playing 1.5, yea, I wanted it gone. But I think I was 15 or something at the time. Not a great moment of forward thinking that part of my life.

DRS, if it should go, should go only once it has proven that it's necessary for the health of Legacy. Right now the format is in such a state of flux that even if you gave me the option of taking out Brainstorm right now I likely wouldn't do it. Too much is in the air to be anything close to this flippant with the list. Right now nothing, not a thing should change. Not for at lest 6 months, then unban something.

The point of Legacy is not to put everything we don't like on the list, it's to put what we can't contain on the list. Right now that means leave everything alone.

[Gheizen64]

No, the point is ubiquity is why it should go, and why some others cards should go as well, or have gone as well. TC and DTT are both good examples of this, combined with being big hitters. Also, Brainstorm, Git. Probe, and Ponder at least all cantrips, so it really makes sense that you are going to see a high % of "the best cantrip" in an eternal format. Ban those then you ban Preordain and Serum Visions next. You ban DRS and it's not like Deathblade is going to keep splashing for "the best mana-dork".

Ponder don't activate miracles, let you run clunky cards md (hello snt) , dodge discard or make 19 lands 3 color decks possible via reshuffling extra cards. Ban BS and you get a significant nerf on blue strategies and less of a reason to run blue as your base color. Blue still remain the top color in legacy. Ban DRS and you get better grave strats, less of a reason to run black, and people maybe playing noble hierarch (ex: noble bug) like people would probably play portent as a bs replacement were it to be banned. (which is to say:never since yet another card was banned in its place)