All B/R update speculation.

[Barook]

Thanks alot!

[Seymour_Asses]

So far:

Innovation
41.9%
Balance
58.1%

Interesting comment, with a lot of people agreeing with it:

While I do believe in prioritization for certain things, the way that this question is posed is that it is a trade-off. I don't really believe in this trade off - they are on different axes.

And the ubiquitous maro answer to problems:

Come on, Ben. I know you know that balancing something with no precedent is harder than balancing something we’ve done five times before.

Which lead to the obvious answer:

I don't think it's that hard to see that starting with 8 cards is absolutely a problem.
It does seem that he's presenting a false dichotomy for PR reasons.

[Wrath of Pie]

Of course, his job security depends on it.

[Barook]

It does seem that he's presenting a false dichotomy for PR reasons.
And it doesn't even address the core problems of their current design philosophy.

Even if they don't make stupid new mechanics that you can't really interact with before shit hits the fan (e.g. companion, energy) - there are still the cards left that are too extremely pushed to sell sets. That, in combination with the lack of proper, timely answers, is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Maro has made a poll whether people prefer innovation or balance, still 6 hours left to vote (https://twitter.com/maro254/status/1258417374270652416)

Cool poll Maro except it's literally your job to do both.

[FTW]

They apparently don't have resources to playtest Eternal formats... which in plain English means stable formats aren't profitable enough so they won't spend money testing them. Still, it's really not hard to do the following checks before printing a card:

1) Does this card let you repeatedly replay Black Lotus/Lion's Eye Diamond without exiling the card after?

2) Does this cheap planeswalker let you replay Strip Mine/Wasteland over and over and also manage the board?

These should be obvious red flags. Somehow Wrenn and Six, Underworld Breach and Lurrus of the Dream-Den still failed them.

[Fox]

I don’t even think you need to go that far on W&6, just ask “should Crucible cost 1 less, be harder to kill/target, and also threaten to end the game in 5 turns?”

Lurrus is the least egregious, and shows at least minimal insight as to how to separate anything like DRS from turn 1 dude into turn 2 play 1-card combo that wins game by itself (ex. Oko). A creature that says stop playing PWs is fine in my book.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I don’t even think you need to go that far on W&6, just ask “should Crucible cost 1 less, be harder to kill/target, and also threaten to end the game in 5 turns?”

Just ask if crucible was almost an entirely different card

[KevinTrudeau]

In the eighteen years I've been familiar with MaRo's rhetoric, I've never seen him this duplicitous. Hopefully it means someone yelled at him or at the entire group about all of this shit the company has been printing recently.

[pettdan]

They apparently don't have resources to playtest Eternal formats... which in plain English means stable formats aren't profitable enough so they won't spend money testing them. Still, it's really not hard to do the following checks before printing a card:

1) Does this card let you repeatedly replay Black Lotus/Lion's Eye Diamond without exiling the card after?

2) Does this cheap planeswalker let you replay Strip Mine/Wasteland over and over and also manage the board?

These should be obvious red flags. Somehow Wrenn and Six, Underworld Breach and Lurrus of the Dream-Den still failed them.

To be fair, there wasn't widespread shouting that these cards needed to be banned until a while after their release, I follow the spoiler season carefully and listen to maybe a dozen podcasts. When W6 was banned after six months or so very few people actively supported an immediate ban (as I recall, I did fwiw), I remember feeling controversial when I wrote here before the announcement that it seemed like the first opportunity for WotC to ban the card without it seeming like they acted prematurely. It took a while until Brain Feeze was identified as an engine and wincon with Breach, and if that card didn't exist we might still have Breach around.

Anyway, whether these cards can be identified as banworthy at a concept stage or not, as long as bans are carried out swiftly, the damage to the format is minimal. It's when we need to regularly face these cards that 90% (random number) of players recognise as not suitable for this format that our interest in playing is reduced. I hope WotC keep up banning proactively, like with Breach. Edit: and I hope they step it up with respect to Oko and sadly Astrolabe, and Lurrus.

Edit: the Litmus tests you propose seem good.

[jmlima]

... It's when we need to regularly face these cards that 90% (random number) of players recognise as not suitable for this format that our interest in playing is reduced. ...


Speaking of which, latest legacy prelim, Lurrus is as played as brainstorm and ponder (all at 66.67% of the decks). A minimum of 42.42% of the decks in the entire format plays lurrus (ranging from storm to delver(s), to WW...)

[pettdan]

Speaking of which, latest legacy prelim, Lurrus is as played as brainstorm and ponder (all at 66.67% of the decks). A minimum of 42.42% of the decks in the entire format plays lurrus (ranging from storm to delver(s), to WW...)

I thought it was even more. Now, it's possible that the format will adapt, but this seems like a card that will not be easy to balance. The Companion-restriction [edit: for Lurrus specifically] may be suitable for Standard and Pioneer, maybe Modern, but not for Legacy and probably not for Vintage. We should have this card banned now in order to avoid further damaging the format. And, I think with a more proactive approach to banning cards, it may be a good idea to reconsider unbanning cards in the future. I think this could be done in a community effort, similar to how Julian Knab ran the.. What's it called again, the Legacy Mediocre League? [edit: no, Legacy Unchained - https://itsjulian.com/legacy-unchained-week-1/] I forgot, last spring's Twitch tournament with Deathrite, Top and Survival unbanned.

[jmlima]

I thought it was even more. Now, it's possible that the format will adapt, but this seems like a card that will not be easy to balance. The Companion-restriction [edit: for Lurrus specifically] may be suitable for Standard and Pioneer, maybe Modern, but not for Legacy and probably not for Vintage. We should have this card banned now in order to avoid further damaging the format. And, I think with a more proactive approach to banning cards, it may be a good idea to reconsider unbanning cards in the future. I think this could be done in a community effort, similar to how Julian Knab ran the.. What's it called again, the Legacy Mediocre League? I forgot, last spring's Twitch tournament with Deathrite, Top and Survival unbanned.

Vintage is a wee bit different, Lurrus is only played in 81.25% of the decks in the latest challenge. Just after force with 87.50%.

[Barook]

Speaking of which, latest legacy prelim, Lurrus is as played as brainstorm and ponder (all at 66.67% of the decks).
Pillar of the format! /sarcasm

Even with Lurrus gone, there are still Zirda, Gyruda and probably Yorion at minimum that are going to be problematic. I sure can't sait for Bant/4C Snoko Yorion clusterfuck decks once Lurrus is gone. :rolleyes:

They should ban the companion mechanic from Constructed play (allowing you to run the cards normally) and throw in an Astrolabe + Oko ban as well. There, format fixed.

[Megadeus]

It took a while until Brain Feeze was identified as an engine and wincon with Breach, and if that card didn't exist we might still have Breach around.



I don't mean to splice up your entire quote, much of what I agree with, but I remember the same day of Breach being spoiled that there was talk of brainfreeze being a good kill condition with the card. Just saying that Breach was dumb as shit and I think even without Brainfreeze existing it would've eventually gotten the axe

[pettdan]

I don't mean to splice up your entire quote, much of what I agree with, but I remember the same day of Breach being spoiled that there was talk of brainfreeze being a good kill condition with the card. Just saying that Breach was dumb as shit and I think even without Brainfreeze existing it would've eventually gotten the axe

It’s perfectly ok you have a good point and you're probably right. I think I oversimplified my description of it which was based on a couple of observations hanging together loosely. As I recalled it took some little time between seeing the card and hearing of BF but maybe it was only less than a day, I thought it might have been a couple of days as I remember finding brain freezes for good prices for maybe a few days, indicating to me it took a while for it to catch on (not disagreeing here, just that this was my observation at the time that I probably reinterpreted wrongly now). Also I don't remember exactly but didn't decklists evolve for a while, I vaguely recall that but maybe what I really recall was all the different types of lists that were popping up.. Final observation and the more relevant one, as Breach was banned, Maverick actually seemed to be becoming a meta deck and if Breach decks were a bit weaker, such as without BF, I can see Maverick having had an even better edge there. It's hard to say how such a meta might have evolved.

[Ronald Deuce]

Am I the only one who thinks good cards are cool and that people should actually get the chance to play with them before deciding they should be banned? Because it'd be really cool to actually see these cards in person before they get the axe.

Underworld Breach and Wrenn and Six both got banned ludicrously quickly—and with judgment that can only be described as lacking. That's no better than waiting a decade to act on Miracles or waiting to act on Chalice of the Void until sometime never.

[Fox]

Am I the only one who thinks good cards are cool and that people should actually get the chance to play with them before deciding they should be banned? Because it'd be really cool to actually see these cards in person before they get the axe.

Underworld Breach and Wrenn and Six both got banned ludicrously quickly—and with judgment that can only be described as lacking. That's no better than waiting a decade to act on Miracles or waiting to act on Chalice of the Void until sometime never.

I agree that cards shouldn’t be banned without vetting by paper play.

Breach and Wrenn were both poorly designed, and highlight the problems with the short-sighted banning of legacy’s GY police (DRS). Mistakes like these will keep getting out of control (ex. Hogaak, Uro, Sanctuary, Dreadhorde, Wrenn, Breach, Lurrus) the longer we go without the black 1-drop policeman. A fixed version of DRS is likely in order since the mana acceleration leads either to Hymn/Snapcaster exploits or 1-card combo that wins game by itself (Oko). Either he only gets to make a mana of the color/type of the land he exiles, or do something interesting like exile a non-creature or non-instant/sorcery to gain either first strike (anti-Snapcaster) or deathtouch (anti-Goyf).

Breach is on a different level than the others though, that pushed out every fair deck way quicker that DTT OmniTell ever could.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Am I the only one who thinks good cards are cool and that people should actually get the chance to play with them before deciding they should be banned? Because it'd be really cool to actually see these cards in person before they get the axe.

Underworld Breach and Wrenn and Six both got banned ludicrously quickly—and with judgment that can only be described as lacking. That's no better than waiting a decade to act on Miracles or waiting to act on Chalice of the Void until sometime never.

I got burned by the breach ban. It was my fault, I knew it was bannable. Grinding station was another engine for breach.

W6 was a good ban, which I did not get got by because like pettdan, I knew it was bannable before the release date just like with breach.

I agree that miracles needed a banning on terminus BEFORE Oko, Astrolabe and uro, and now its looking like Lurrus and Yorion (all are in some version of a winning miracles decklist). I think the name Miracles is damned ironic for the decklist. Anyway, its name should really be "Miracles Never Cease" now that they have Mystic Sanctuary, also.

Chalice is fine. You can combo turn 2, maybe turn 1 *TO WIN THE GAME* in this format right now without ever casting something that costs 1. It is fine.

If they outright ban Lurrus of the Dream Den, I will be really frustrated. If they ban the Companion mechanic, I will also be really frustrated. Yorion isn't good if there is no Companion mechanic, but if Companion is allowed to stay, Lurrus and Zirda and possibly others remain detrimental to the formats they are effective in.

TL;DR - I prefer balanced design over reactive environment. Companion could have been balanced, and Lurrus was busted without it.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Wrath of Pie]

I see banlist changes in the future. (https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1259997359179616256?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1259997359179616256&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2F2%2Ftwitter.min.html%231259997359179616256)

[Sella]

I see banlist changes in the future. (https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1259997359179616256?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1259997359179616256&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2F2%2Ftwitter.min.html%231259997359179616256)

RIP Modern lol

[Wrath of Pie]

RIP Modern lol
It's more an admission that Vintage and Legacy are truly online-first formats.

[Sella]

It's more an admission that Vintage and Legacy are truly online-first formats.

That's true ig. Well moderns always been perennially fucked anyways and a Lurrus ban for Legacy will be somewhat appreciated, even if nuking the mechanic would be better (imho). If they hit Lurrus and Astrolabe I'll snap-buy back into the format

[colo]

I'm not really in the loop about MtG right now (too much other stuff on my plate), and never really followed Vintage - but if Lurrus is such a problem in the format, how they are gonna fix it, given that restricing the card to 1 copy in your list apparently won't do jack shit? They'll have to neuter the Companion mechanic for that mistake to be undone, I guess?

[Aus-Rotten]

I'm not really in the loop about MtG right now (too much other stuff on my plate), and never really followed Vintage - but if Lurrus is such a problem in the format, how they are gonna fix it, given that restricing the card to 1 copy in your list apparently won't do jack shit? They'll have to neuter the Companion mechanic for that mistake to be undone, I guess?

Power level bans are apparently an option in vintage now.

[Sella]

I'm not really in the loop about MtG right now (too much other stuff on my plate), and never really followed Vintage - but if Lurrus is such a problem in the format, how they are gonna fix it, given that restricing the card to 1 copy in your list apparently won't do jack shit? They'll have to neuter the Companion mechanic for that mistake to be undone, I guess?

Honestly hope that they just nuke the mechanic for eternal formats. Wizards has already admitted to not testing for them and there's just way too much potential for abuse

[Barook]

That's true ig. Well moderns always been perennially fucked anyways and a Lurrus ban for Legacy will be somewhat appreciated, even if nuking the mechanic would be better (imho). If they hit Lurrus and Astrolabe I'll snap-buy back into the format
The most sensible approach would be nuking all companions in general (either via a ban or not allowing them to be your companion) while also hitting Astrolabe and Oko.

Anything else will just prolong this misery.

[jmlima]

The most sensible approach would be nuking all companions in general (either via a ban or not allowing them to be your companion) while also hitting Astrolabe and Oko.

Anything else will just prolong this misery.

I think what you'll get is a ban on lurrus and game-on re the rest. Technically, it's the easiest option, in gaming terms, solves the immediate problem and kicks the can down the road re oko. They have already done it for so long, why not keep it going.

Having said that, people seem to have a different take on what is going to get the ban hammer:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Masters+Edition/Urzas+Bauble#online
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Coldsnap/Mishras+Bauble#online

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Bauble wasn't exactly a $50 card prior to Lurrus.

[Barook]

I think what you'll get is a ban on lurrus and game-on re the rest. Technically, it's the easiest option, in gaming terms, solves the immediate problem and kicks the can down the road re oko. They have already done it for so long, why not keep it going.

Having said that, people seem to have a different take on what is going to get the ban hammer:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Masters+Edition/Urzas+Bauble#online
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Coldsnap/Mishras+Bauble#online
WotC and competence don't go into the same sentence, so I don't expect much of them. It took them a whole year to ban DTT.

[Fox]

WotC and competence don't go into the same sentence, so I don't expect much of them. It took them a whole year to ban DTT.

And the whole time Probe should have been banned before DTT.

[Wrath of Pie]

Having said that, people seem to have a different take on what is going to get the ban hammer:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Masters+Edition/Urzas+Bauble#online
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Coldsnap/Mishras+Bauble#online
This is what I expect to happen, because of historical precedent trying to ban around the actual problem and having to ban the actual problem later. Of course, they did actually ban Underworld Breach instead of trying to blame LED and/or gut Storm-based combo, so maybe they improved their philosophy?

[pettdan]

Baubles are dropping in price since they go back to seeing much less play and therefore lower demand when Lurrus, probably, gets banned. I don't think banning the baubles would do much to reduce the playability of Lurrus, not enough that banning them would make sense. Well, that's my interpretation.

[Megadeus]

Plus at least for legacy you'd need to ban both Mishra and Urza's Bauble. And I mean c'mon. It's a fucking joke if you think those are the problem cards

[alphastryk]

There's no chance they're banning baubles folks, lets be real. It's Lurrus for sure.

[Mr. Safety]

There's no chance they're banning baubles folks, lets be real. It's Lurrus for sure.

Lurrus, all companions, or the companion mechanic for eternal formats. The third seems like the best solution; we get to play the cards, just not in the broken way.

[the Thin White Duke]

So they give everyone a heads up Monday that "something" is going to happen in a week. The set is released on Friday giving people the chance to buy all those broken cards (if they haven't pre-ordered already). Then the following Monday "something" happens and people are going to be butt-hurt because they got three days to play with their OP cards. Buyer beware and all, but this is some douchebaggery on Wizard's part. Granted if standard is unaffected by companion bans, prices shouldn't take that much of a hit. But it seems like someone at Wizards is thinking, "we're actually going to get away with this. Just "X" more days, nobody will notice..."
If they know what they're going to do and the players know what they're going to do, why wait?

[Sella]

So they give everyone a heads up Monday that "something" is going to happen in a week. The set is released on Friday giving people the chance to buy all those broken cards (if they haven't pre-ordered already). Then the following Monday "something" happens and people are going to be butt-hurt because they got three days to play with their OP cards. Buyer beware and all, but this is some douchebaggery on Wizard's part. Granted if standard is unaffected by companion bans, prices shouldn't take that much of a hit. But it seems like someone at Wizards is thinking, "we're actually going to get away with this. Just "X" more days, nobody will notice..."
If they know what they're going to do and the players know what they're going to do, why wait?

I mean they also aren't addressing Modern or Pioneer so you'll have a bit more time to jam Lurrus in those formats as well

[Mr. Safety]

I'm actually surprised Modern isn't part of the discussion for their announcement. I'm half-expecting at every B&R announcement that modern will be dissolved as a format and Pioneer will become their new 'extended' format of choice.

I think giving players a week notice before making the announcement is more responsible than saying nothing and then just 'boom, banned, you bought your cards and now can't play them.' This way people on the fence about purchasing will likely hold off, rather than speculating about 'when will they address this'? It isn't perfect, but it's better than cold turkey.

[pettdan]

I think giving players a week notice before making the announcement is more responsible than saying nothing and then just 'boom, banned, you bought your cards and now can't play them.' This way people on the fence about purchasing will likely hold off, rather than speculating about 'when will they address this'? It isn't perfect, but it's better than cold turkey.

I also think it's fine, it lets players operating on a small budget sell out of high-risk cards to avoid losing a lot of money while players who don't care can take that risk, for them it barely matters.

[Wrath of Pie]

I'm actually surprised Modern isn't part of the discussion for their announcement. I'm half-expecting at every B&R announcement that modern will be dissolved as a format and Pioneer will become their new 'extended' format of choice.

I think giving players a week notice before making the announcement is more responsible than saying nothing and then just 'boom, banned, you bought your cards and now can't play them.' This way people on the fence about purchasing will likely hold off, rather than speculating about 'when will they address this'? It isn't perfect, but it's better than cold turkey.

I am fairly sure that they are dealing with the online-first formats intentionally, because Modern is still a Grand Prix format so it still has relevance in paper, while the relevant results from their perspective for Legacy is pretty much Magic Online.

Of course, right now paper Magic is virtually irrelevant for data purposes, so the cynical answer is that they need to sell Lurrus in paper.

[Izor]

ayy, assuming Lurrus does get booted on Monday I did for once do everything right in deciding to wait it out this time and quit Legacy entirely until the inevitable ban. Last time I actually bought the Breaches and Freezes and never got to play them before the hammer hit. At least they were cheap...

[Mr. Safety]

I am fairly sure that they are dealing with the online-first formats intentionally, because Modern is still a Grand Prix format so it still has relevance in paper, while the relevant results from their perspective for Legacy is pretty much Magic Online.

Of course, right now paper Magic is virtually irrelevant for data purposes, so the cynical answer is that they need to sell Lurrus in paper.

There is nothing stopping them from converting all Modern GP's into Pioneer GP's, especially once they get Pioneer developed into Arena. I don't know if that is literally their plan, but it would make perfect sense. Modern has become another Legacy for them: a problematic older format to manage. MTGO will continue to exist for Vintage/Legacy/Modern but Arena will be Standard/Pioneer.

Hell, they could even use covid19 as their excuse for converting all planned Modern GP's into Pioneer. Never let a good crisis go to waste!

[Wrath of Pie]

They want to sell Modern Horizons-like sets, otherwise the audience is just the Commander players and a more direct product serves that purpose better.

[Mr. Safety]

They want to sell Modern Horizons-like sets, otherwise the audience is just the Commander players and a more direct product serves that purpose better.

Pioneer Horizons

June 2021

[Lava Snacks]

Pioneer Horizons

June 2021

Stop living in 2021 and get ready for an exciting new format because

Coming in June 2025

Newfangled Horizons

[Wrath of Pie]

I appreciated this reddit satire (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/gj4y4c/magic_in_100_years_modern_2120/).

[Sella]

An Elesh Reborn Hover-Rare (voiced by Tara Strong)
this sent me into orbit

[Cire]

I appreciated this reddit satire (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/gj4y4c/magic_in_100_years_modern_2120/).

That was brilliant!

[ahg113]

I appreciated this reddit satire (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/gj4y4c/magic_in_100_years_modern_2120/).

Shared with playgroup, was appreciated. Good find.

[jmlima]

I appreciated this reddit satire (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/gj4y4c/magic_in_100_years_modern_2120/).

Absolutely priceless. Particularly enjoyed this one:

We go back and forth subverting the usual rules of Magic the Gathering. Luckily the two 15-cost creatures in my hand can be played for free on prime number turns, keeping his attacks at bay. My Guardevore the Evergrowing is a 12/13, as it gets */+1 for each Companion in the game. Both these creatures have ETBs of some description.

Followed by this:

People only remember interaction between cards they play, but no one remembers certain cards can interact between players.

[jmlima]

Small sample, only 8 decks, latest legacy prelim has got 75% of decks with Lurrus, including Elves.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-preliminary-12152369#online

[Megadeus]

Small sample, only 8 decks, latest legacy prelim has got 75% of decks with Lurrus, including Elves.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-preliminary-12152369#online
It's kind of funny that the "Most Played Cards" section below those decks for whatever reason doesn't take into account companions

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Pioneer Horizons

June 2021

Pioneer Homesteads or riot.

[Mr. Safety]

Pioneer Homesteads or riot.

I'll next-level you:

Pioneer Homelands or mutiny.

[Tylert]

I'll next-level you:

Pioneer Homelands or mutiny.

Full re-edition of homelands so that the set is legal in pionneer? Sign me in, I have all the cards already!! (I Stopped playing magic for 10 years after buying a box of homelands and pulling only crap).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I'll next-level you:

Pioneer Homelands or mutiny.

I thought next-leveling was supposed to be better?

[Mr. Safety]

I thought next-leveling was supposed to be better?

I got a very good laugh at this!

Are you trying to imply that Homelands wasn't the best expansion ever? Shame on you.

[Cire]

I appreciated this reddit satire (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/gj4y4c/magic_in_100_years_modern_2120/).

Just for "Fun" - what would be the best deck if you can run as many companions as you wanted? Some sort of Lurrus Yorion Zirda nightmare?

Edit - actually, doubt that would work. The best way to abuse Yorion includes Strix and Ice-Fang. . . probably just Lurrus Yorion then . . .

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I got a very good laugh at this!

Are you trying to imply that Homelands wasn't the best expansion ever? Shame on you.

I would never deprive Fallen Empires of it's rightful title.
But I meant on a wordplay level. Pioneers leave their homeland.

[H]

Sorry, but Fallen Empires is a vastly better set than Homelands in every way I can possibly think about it. To this day, I don't think any Magic set's flavor has even been as good, or will be either. Maybe that is just nostalgia on my part, but FE is definitely not the worst Magic set ever made, to me.

I'd actually love to see Fallen Empires Horizons. Even if all the cards are terrible and they only manage to capture 25% of the old flavor.

[Fox]

Sorry, but Fallen Empires is a vastly better set than Homelands in every way I can possibly think about it. To this day, I don't think any Magic set's flavor has even been as good, or will be either. Maybe that is just nostalgia on my part, but FE is definitely not the worst Magic set ever made, to me.

I'd actually love to see Fallen Empires Horizons. Even if all the cards are terrible and they only manage to capture 25% of the old flavor.
Said the guy with the HTT art under his name. :tongue: Multiple arts for same card should come back though.

I still think one of the better unloved sets they’ve made was Prophecy; there was nothing quite like telling players to be tapped out while also having mana open to deny rhystic magic effects. This is a set they should probably have a Return to X for - they clearly need to practice not making mindlessly perfect cards. Also bring back mana burn so we can actually go back to Prophecy; what an incredibly simple rule to understand, trashed for no benefit other than lost creative space.

edit: math checks out by the way, if you print cards with 4 arts you get a lot of flavor equity at a rate of 25% per.

[H]

Said the guy with the HTT art under his name. :tongue: Multiple arts for same card should come back though.

I still think one of the better unloved sets they’ve made was Prophecy; there was nothing quite like telling players to be tapped out while also having mana open to deny rhystic magic effects. This is a set they should probably have a Return to X for - they clearly need to practice not making mindlessly perfect cards. Also bring back mana burn so we can actually go back to Prophecy; what an incredibly simple rule to understand, trashed for no benefit other than lost creative space.

edit: math checks out by the way, if you print cards with 4 arts you get a lot of flavor equity at a rate of 25% per.

Well, it is never my aim to hide my biases. Rather, I try to put them right out in front. :cool:

However, it is unclear to me under what auspices one could make the case of Homelands as better than Fallen Empires though. Even if we subscribe to your usual Hwyn hatred and give FE a demerit on a count of that, we still have neat cards like the original pump knights, Merchant Scroll, een stupid cards like Breeding Pool or Ebon Praetor are neat. Aside the clear face cards of Homelands, like Baron Sengir, Autumn Willow and Ishan's Shade, the rest of the cards are utterly uninteresting for the most part, at least to me and my biases.

Most contemporary sets are actually too homogenized and bland to even be that bad. Even if Monday comes and Companion gets nuked from orbit, Ikora still isn't even close to one of the worst sets. It also is nowhere near the top, of course.

[Tylert]

Sorry, but Fallen Empires is a vastly better set than Homelands in every way I can possibly think about it. To this day, I don't think any Magic set's flavor has even been as good, or will be either. Maybe that is just nostalgia on my part, but FE is definitely not the worst Magic set ever made, to me.

I'd actually love to see Fallen Empires Horizons. Even if all the cards are terrible and they only manage to capture 25% of the old flavor.

I agree with that. Fallen empires at least had some synergy between cards. I loved fungus!!

[Fox]

As out of place as Homelands was, it was at least part of Ice Age block constructed for a long time. There’s just nothing better than a format where Zuran Orb and Thawing Glaciers is banned but Rit Necro is totally fine. Even has all the cantrips (BS/Portent), countermagic (Cspell/FoW), removal (Plow/Serrated Arrows), and pump knights. That’s just a good format, and FE missed out (no BW 16 pump knight, HTT, Plow aggro; that would have been too good).

[Seymour_Asses]

The Dark is the best set, especially if you hate kids on your lawn.

[BirdsOfParadise]

As long as we’re on this topic, I also like FE and found this custom set entertaining to browse:
http://www.planesculptors.net/set/fe-redux#cards

[Zombie]

There was a time when Delver decks didn't have any real card advantage.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3019422#paper

[Sella]

There was a time when Delver decks didn't have any real card advantage.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3019422#paper

Any format where I have to deal with K-Command main is a format I don't want to play probably

[jmlima]

There was a time when Delver decks didn't have any real card advantage.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3019422#paper

It's all under control, only 59.38% of the decks have Lurrus.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-super-qualifier-12152312#online

Oh, yeah, that other thing, 75% Brainstorm and FoW, 68.75% Ponder. 'Diversity'... (or 'Ubiquity'?)

Edit: The vintage league (with 'massaged' published results) had 80% of Lurrus...

[Fox]

There was a time when Delver decks didn't have any real card advantage.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3019422#paper
Indeed, and that was a time when Snapcaster/Hymn was out of control, and before that CB/SDT & Grixis Delver’s Probe/Sea/Therapy was out of control, and before that Goyf was out of control until the printing of Snapcaster.

Pick your golden era of bullcrap that shouldn’t have been legal. Lurrus is dumb, but this is what happens when you ban DRS and refuse to fill in the gaping hole - suddenly a Dreadhorde comes along and you have to kill that, and then you can’t interact with Lurrus and it takes over and they get Dreadhorde back.

So yeah y’know, we can patch legacy by hitting Lurrus...but all that means is 4c Oko/Uro/Coatl jammy jams shows up everywhere. It’s a another example of bullcrap that shouldn’t be legal, but hey at least Oko and Veil mean people can’t really profitably ruin the format again with Hymn/Snapcaster or CB, so like there’s that. Lurrus is just riding the coattails of banning SDT instead of CB and banning DRS instead of Hymn, which is what most new problem cards in legacy do. Occasionally though you get pure 1-card combo bullcrap that just needs to be banned like Oko and Wrenn.

[Lord Seth]

It's kind of funny that the "Most Played Cards" section below those decks for whatever reason doesn't take into account companions
Companion cards are in the sideboard, which often aren't counted towards "most played cards" stats on websites.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Let's all thank the brainstorm defenders for all the prepackaged arguments as for why actually being in every deck isn't bannable

[Barook]

Indeed, and that was a time when Snapcaster/Hymn was out of control, and before that CB/SDT & Grixis Delver’s Probe/Sea/Therapy was out of control, and before that Goyf was out of control until the printing of Snapcaster.

Pick your golden era of bullcrap that shouldn’t have been legal. Lurrus is dumb, but this is what happens when you ban DRS and refuse to fill in the gaping hole - suddenly a Dreadhorde comes along and you have to kill that, and then you can’t interact with Lurrus and it takes over and they get Dreadhorde back.

So yeah y’know, we can patch legacy by hitting Lurrus...but all that means is 4c Oko/Uro/Coatl jammy jams shows up everywhere. It’s a another example of bullcrap that shouldn’t be legal, but hey at least Oko and Veil mean people can’t really profitably ruin the format again with Hymn/Snapcaster or CB, so like there’s that. Lurrus is just riding the coattails of banning SDT instead of CB and banning DRS instead of Hymn, which is what most new problem cards in legacy do. Occasionally though you get pure 1-card combo bullcrap that just needs to be banned like Oko and Wrenn.
You make it sound like DRS being in the format would make it better. What would actually happen is everybody playing 4C or even 5C clusterfuck Lurrus decks where Lurrus could be played out on T2 more often since DRS can't even stop the Bauble engine, with Seal of Fire being likely tech to fight opposing DRS.

As for filling the gap of DRS - at what point would a new card be balanced? Only being able to target your opponent's stuff? Or take the mana ability away as well/replacing it with something else/restrict it to only producing G or B/G? Not being able abuse your own GY for maximum effect would be crucial for a balanced design. It was initially designed to fight Snapcaster in Standard, so it could still fulfill its purpose if can only target your opponent's stuff, while also resolving those utterly stupid DRS wars.

[non-inflammable]

Let's all thank the brainstorm defenders for all the prepackaged arguments as for why actually being in every deck isn't bannable

OMG! you and i agree on something. Monday's B&R will be a relief to get back to bashing on BS.

just imagine a format where SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise, Mana Drain & Mind Twist are not banned but BS is.

[Fox]

You make it sound like DRS being in the format would make it better. What would actually happen is everybody playing 4C or even 5C clusterfuck Lurrus decks where Lurrus could be played out on T2 more often since DRS can't even stop the Bauble engine, with Seal of Fire being likely tech to fight opposing DRS.

As for filling the gap of DRS - at what point would a new card be balanced? Only being able to target your opponent's stuff? Or take the mana ability away as well/replacing it with something else/restrict it to only producing G or B/G? Not being able abuse your own GY for maximum effect would be crucial for a balanced design. It was initially designed to fight Snapcaster in Standard, so it could still fulfill its purpose if can only target your opponent's stuff, while also resolving those utterly stupid DRS wars.

A Lurrus on turn 2 is not a good play, it’s actually a great way to instantly lose - the opponent definitely has a higher chance of removal in hand at this time in a game. Pyknite is not good enough in legacy, and that’s exactly what a mistimed Lurrus is.

Look at any new card that is ‘too good/overpowered/must-ban’ and ask yourself if B or G mode on DRS kept this crap out of the format - every analysis of a new card should start here. The main problem with DRS is the following turn 2 game over b/c 1-card combo 3-drop PW/3 mana play or 100% chance of Hymn [into lose your hand forever Snap-Hymn vomit chain] due to the mana mode. There’s no reason a fixed version couldn’t say “get a mana of a color and type the targeted land could produce” and beyond that, the card as printed was already 100% fine b/c it’s actually really just a Fetchland problem.

It really shouldn’t be surprising that losing B/G police mode and the only [not-Hogaak/Zombardment] black 1-drop threat has created more problems than it solved. At some point, be it Wrenn or Breach or Uro or Sanctuary or Sevinne’s or people playing AK or Dreadhorde or Lurrus, you really have to ask yourself “is the format really better off?” even with the Fetchland/mana-ramp problems that came with him.

I’m genuinely curious, what is everyone’s threshold on bullcrap DRS would have put a stop too before you give up one inch on DRS? How many decks, how many cards/exploits, how many must-bans would you have to see?

[Seymour_Asses]

Yeah it's going to be a bit of a relief going back to the moronic "unban SDT/DRS" and "ban Brainstorm" arguments after Lurrus (and hopefully Companion in general) gets canned.

[Barook]

Yeah it's going to be a bit of a relief going back to the moronic "unban SDT/DRS" and "ban Brainstorm" arguments after Lurrus (and hopefully Companion in general) gets canned.
Would Lurrus be fine if you can't run it as companion? Not being able to build your deck around it and not getting it on demand would reduce its power level quite a bit.

[Fox]

Would Lurrus be fine if you can't run it as companion? Not being able to build your deck around it and not getting it on demand would reduce its power level quite a bit.
Honestly they should ban it, then reprint it in the next set with “can only Yawg Will a thing back if you gained life this turn” - they just really need to get back to responsible card design. I mean, it has lifelink right effing there, how hard is it to put 1 and 1 together. I mean it’s not like they just had to ban a card recently that had largely unconditional recursion - oh wait, nope they just banned Breach.

[phonics]

Honestly they should ban it, then reprint it in the next set with “can only Yawg Will a thing back if you gained life this turn” - they just really need to get back to responsible card design. I mean, it has lifelink right effing there, how hard is it to put 1 and 1 together. I mean it’s not like they just had to ban a card recently that had largely unconditional recursion - oh wait, nope they just banned Breach.

Well considering they develop sets a couple years in advance this will probably continue for another year, if War of the Spark was start and they immediately decided to shift gears afterwards.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Would Lurrus be fine if you can't run it as companion? Not being able to build your deck around it and not getting it on demand would reduce its power level quite a bit.

Lurrus would see fringe play without its companion ability. The effect is powerful but only because it's card 8 in your opening 7 and can't be tagged by a discard spell.

[Seymour_Asses]

Would Lurrus be fine if you can't run it as companion? Not being able to build your deck around it and not getting it on demand would reduce its power level quite a bit.

I think it would be fine. Like 4dogs said, it would probably see some fringe play.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Yeah it's going to be a bit of a relief going back to the moronic "unban SDT/DRS" and "ban Brainstorm" arguments after Lurrus (and hopefully Companion in general) gets canned.
Except when opinion is united on something like Lurrus, there are usually two strong currents in this thread. The first is discussion of alternative, hypothetical states of Legacy by people both for and against the various ban/unban proposals. The second is name-calling. I’ve long wished that the two could be separated into one thread dedicated to the former purpose, for people who enjoy that kind of thing, and another thread for the name-calling, for people who enjoy that. To be fair, there’s sometimes a grey area, but so often there isn’t.

“I disagree with your opinion because XYZ” — first thread
“Your opinion is moronic” — second thread
“Your opinion is moronic because XYZ” — this is tough to call, but I think the mods could be up to the task. Personally I’d lean towards binning it in the second thread unless XYZ was especially valuable to read.

I understand that some users find humor in name-calling and that it’s a tradition in this thread (compared to, say, deck discussion threads), but civil discussion of alternative, hypothetical states of Legacy is also a tradition in this thread, and the two don’t have much synergy. People with both types of interest could save a lot of scrolling, were they separated.

Naturally, users posting in the second thread (the name-calling one) will frequently be aiming their comments at material in the first thread (alternative Legacy discussion) and this split wouldn’t be ideal for them since they would need to include URLs to the posts being ridiculed, or they’d need to copy+paste from the first thread to the second to make a direct quote. However, since users of the second thread would agree that they are smarter than the users of the first thread, this minor technological hurdle shouldn’t be too problematic. In fact, with a separate thread, the name-calling would no longer be so limited in topic and could really take wing.

[Sella]

I'm down to unban DRS if it gets some sort of errata to stop it from enabling 4C pile.decks lol

[Wrath of Pie]

I'm down to unban DRS if it gets some sort of errata to stop it from enabling 4C pile.decks lol
Real answer is the only way it gets unbanned is if fetchlands are banned.

[non-inflammable]

Real answer is the only way it gets unbanned is if fetchlands are banned.

if BS can't be touched, then sign me up for that. no more perfect mana 4x color piles that just run the best cards from every color.

[pettdan]

Actually, the companion restriction would make it possible to print a new Deathrite with the limitation that it cannot be run in a deck with islands in it. As a companion it would be way too strong though so we would need a new mechanic with the deck-restriction but without the sideboard-playability. Or.. Maybe foresthome would do..

[Fox]

Actually, the companion restriction would make it possible to print a new Deathrite with the limitation that it cannot be run in a deck with islands in it. As a companion it would be way too strong though so we would need a new mechanic with the deck-restriction but without the sideboard-playability. Or.. Maybe foresthome would do..

Being able to murder a Bayou with Wasteland and then by proxy the DRS [foresthome mechanic], or with a Blood Moon, or if they cast a Daze (Trop), would be a good way to balance the ramp with a meaningful axis of interaction.

Edit: here’s the mechanic for those who didn’t play when mechanics on creatures were great - Dandan

[Hardcore]

Someone mentioned BS? Can't say it feels untouchable anymore. Nor does FoW do much. Too much resilience. Too high power levels of cards.

[Izor]

Someone mentioned BS? Can't say it feels untouchable anymore. Nor does FoW do much. Too much resilience. Too high power levels of cards.

First, the 'anymore' kind of suggests that existing cards become more powerful with new sets releasing. In reality the power creep of newer sets has had the opposite effect, which is making previously good cards look bad.

Second, you should play with a Force of Will deck before you judge it as too powerful for the format. Noone who has played with and cast the card in Legacy before would ever think it's too powerful and should be banned. I used to think FoW was too good as well... when I was 14 and only played Burn and my opponents FoW'd my Fireblasts leaving me butthurt, over 15 years ago.

It's not even just that pitching a blue card is a massive cost in the majority of matchups, which it very much is, the thing is that without Force of Will they would have to ban
all the one-card win conditions such as Show and Tell and Natural Order as well as most of the fast mana, such as LED, Dark Ritual, Petal, etc., because FoW is the single reason those decks are beatable for anything that tries to attack with creatures. I'm aware there are Thalia-based decks and other hatebear decks too, but if combo doesn't have to prepare for FoW any more they would easily be able to adapt to them.

[jmlima]

First, the 'anymore' kind of suggests that existing cards become more powerful with new sets releasing. In reality the power creep of newer sets has had the opposite effect, which is making previously good cards look bad.

....

That's true in this particular set of new sets. But that reasoning ('ban a card because new sets will only make it better') has been previously used as a reason for a ban (birthing pod). In fact, at some point in modern, it was even cited as the reason to keep the jedi sword girl banned, we all know now that it was all bollocks since after the banning it became a card in a couple of fringe decks and nothing else.

(and no, I do not agree fow should be banned)

Things are so out of control with regards to the relationship between new sets and old formats: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/gluns4/happy_banniversary/

tl;dr:


With tomorrow's B&R announcement presumably hitting 1 or more Ikoria cards, it will be a full year since Wizards has printed a set that hasn't warranted bans in older formats.

War of the Spark: Karn & Narset in Vintage

Modern Horizons: Wrenn&Six in Legacy, Hogaak in Modern

Core 20: Mystic Forge in Vintage

Eldraine: Oko & Once Upon A Time in Modern

Theros: Underworld Breach in Legacy

Ikoria: Lurrus, probably

[H]

No real surprises: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/may-18-2020-banned-and-restricted-announcement?whereitat

[pettdan]

No real surprises: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/may-18-2020-banned-and-restricted-announcement?whereitat

Well the second one was quite surprising but I'm glad they did it.

[jmlima]

No real surprises: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/may-18-2020-banned-and-restricted-announcement?whereitat

Yup.

edit: I do find surprising they didn't just nuke all companions. snowko w/ yorion will now become the obvious deck to play.

I found this one amusing:


We are aware of some players' concerns about the frequency at which they encounter decks using companions across several formats. ...

Ah, so ubiquity as a criteria does apply to certain cards...

[Hardcore]

Really I should have been more verbose.
What I am saying is that Brainstorm and Force of Will matter ever less, eventually becoming irrelevant, because of the bloody power creep. Even hate is less efficient nowadays, thanks to hybridization. Banning single cards, which is a kind of hate, don't do much for the harmony of the game either. They are simply replaced by something else. Of course, you already know this but I, like all people, can't resist having an opinion.

[Hardcore]

Will the next banned card be a companion, do you think?


If they release more cards with that mechanic I think that is likely.
I am also expectng more bans from this set. I figure it just take a little longer to make something broken in modern.

[Barook]

Good: Also banning Zirda to prevent it from becoming the next Pokemon deck on the chopping block.

Bad: Allowing us to return to the hell that's the SnOko meta. :rolleyes:

With Lurrus and Zirda out of the picture, are we going to see more Gyruda and Yorion decks next? I fully expect this shitshow to continue, with 4C Yorion SnOko decks running high numbers of Oko and Uro for maximum cancer.

[Cire]

Yorion is going to be everywhere

[H]

edit: I do find surprising they didn't just nuke all companions. snowko w/ yorion will now become the obvious deck to play.

Well, they still want people to buy paper cards.

I think at some point, the whole mechanic just gets nuked. At least I hope, because Lurrus would be an interesting maindeck card to brew with, but now we can't.

[Ronald Deuce]

Impeccable timing for all us preorder-ers who just got their hands on the cards on Saturday.

[Fox]

I think at some point, the whole mechanic just gets nuked. At least I hope, because Lurrus would be an interesting maindeck card to brew with, but now we can't.

Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.

[H]

Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.

Well, I like and play Death and Taxes, so I don't take it for a win at all, :tongue:.

I mean, I have plenty of other options as well, but I'd have liked to have that as well, along with possibly improved Deadguy.

I don't really care that most of the cards I preordered, that haven't even gotten to me yet are useless now, haha. I will just buy some other cards. I just think they could have been a little more sensible in the ban move.

[Izor]

Can't say I'm a fan of having Gyruda around for the future, but at least that's just the probably new best version of turn-1-all-in-combo which still has as many weaknesses as other glass cannons, so I guess I don't care.

Yorion I'm more worried about, because the deck it slots in naturally is the one that is pretty much guaranteed to be the DTB now anyway. If you look at recent Snowko/Miracles lists you'll see that it's comically easy for that deck to play extra copies of its best 60 to accomodate a total of 80. 4/5 Force becomes 6, 8 cantrips becomes 12, 4 strix becomes up to 8... apart from exactly Brainstorm, Astrolabe and some sideboard bullets the deck doesn't even suffer from a 33% increase in deck size.

Glad they nuked Zirda though.

[Barook]

Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.
How about a 80 card D&T Yorion Special?

Play Yorion for mana, then bounce it back every round for an unholy amount of triggers with Karakas + Vial @5, all while having Mom/Giver protection up. I wouldn't even be surprised if you could throw in Astrolabe in for extra draw (and mana fixing colorless lands).

Too bad D&T isn't that hot right now between Oko and Astrolabe undermining its core strategy.

[non-inflammable]

What I am saying is that Brainstorm and Force of Will matter ever less, eventually becoming irrelevant

don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

banned because of BS:
SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe

[H]

banned because of BS:
SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe

An interesting theory, but your line of causation there seems spurious, honestly. Especially since SDT, DDT, DRS, TC and Probe are all banned in Modern as well, where there was never Brainstorm to consider.

There is actually a clearer line there to the status of those cards and fetchlands. But again, we can ceaselessly open this can of worms...

[PirateKing]

Impeccable timing for all us preorder-ers who just got their hands on the cards on Saturday.

Mine arrive Wednesday x.x

[Humphrey]

don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

banned because of BS:
SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe


you mean fetchlands

[non-inflammable]

An interesting theory, but your line of causation there seems spurious, honestly. Especially since SDT, DDT, DRS, TC and Probe are all banned in Modern as well, where there was never Brainstorm to consider.

There is actually a clearer line there to the status of those cards and fetchlands. But again, we can ceaselessly open this can of worms...

OK, i'll take the bait. Are those cards restricted or banned in the format of "Ultimate Cosmic Power" = vintage?
Honestly, if something's restricted in vintage, is it usually banned in legacy?


If fetchlands were banned, i'd be on board with that; no more perfect mana for 4x color piles.
But then, we could add fetchlands to the list of cards banned because of BS.

[Fox]

don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

banned because of BS:
SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe
-SDT banned b/c they failed to ban Counterbalance.
-DRS banned b/c all starting point diversity destroyed by Snapcaster/Hymn (all fair decks were bad Czech), with slight exception of pseudo-Hymn (Grixis Delver with Probe/Sea/Therapy) and Elves (DRS machine gun).
-Breach and DTT banned for hating out all fair decks without blue.
-W&6 banned b/c of 1-card combo power level.
-Git Probe banned for being a cantripping Lotus Petal (b/c Delve).
-Cruise banned for being overpowered, unable to play magic against Delver into Daze into Fireblast’s +3 mana all supported by cantipping Lotus Petal (Probe).

Fetchlands are the culprit you’re looking for, not Brainstorm.

[non-inflammable]

-SDT banned b/c they failed to ban Counterbalance.
-DRS banned b/c all starting point diversity destroyed by Snapcaster/Hymn (all fair decks were bad Czech), with slight exception of pseudo-Hymn (Grixis Delver with Probe/Sea/Therapy) and Elves (DRS machine gun).
-Breach and DTT banned for hating out all fair decks without blue.
-W&6 banned b/c of 1-card combo power level.
-Git Probe banned for being a cantripping Lotus Petal (b/c Delve).
-Cruise banned for being overpowered, unable to play magic against Delver into Daze into Fireblast’s +3 mana all supported by cantipping Lotus Petal (Probe).

Fetchlands are the culprit you’re looking for, not Brainstorm.

funny how every bullet point in your post, starts with a deck that has 4 BS.

[aedemiel]

funny how every bullet point in your post, starts with a deck that has 4 BS.

Funny how BS is good mainly because of Fetchlands.

[Izor]

If you want to play that game... funny how every deck with Brainstorm plays fetchlands, but lots of decks play fetchlands but no Brainstorm...

If you really want to find the card/s that really should be banned but get a pass because they've just always kinda been there and people enjoy playing with them in older formats when they can't in newer ones...


... it's the fetchlands you want to ban. Not Brainstorm. If BS ever does get banned, it will be because of fetchlands, not vice versa. Just like the majority of cards you mentioned were banned because of fetchlands, not BS. Brainstorm is not even a good card. It doesn't even make it into Pauper Cubes and into most blue Pauper decks. It's funny how we're talking about so many things that are allegedly broken, but an untapped land that essentially makes all 5 colors when needed isn't even part of the discussion...


Now, to get that straight here, I don't want to ban fetchlands. I'm just saying Brainstorm is not the card that defines Legacy more than anything else. It's the fetchlands. Even the ABU duals are a complete joke against the fetches both in terms of utility as well as raw power level. Duals make 2 colors, fetches make up to 5.


It's actually so funny to think about. If there was a zero mana tutor for every card type (such as: search your library for a card of that type and put it into your hand.), I think we can agree all of them would be banned. However, the ten zero mana tutors we have for all mana-producing lands in your deck are legal.

[Watersaw]

Brainstorm is not even a good card.

Wipe this meme from the face of the earth. I understand this is the designated shitposting thread but we gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE

[Izor]

I mean that in the literal sense. Brainstorm is not a very good Magic card in a vacuum, which means you don't have 12+ free shuffle effects in your deck.

I welcome you to play 4 BS in a shuffle-less deck and prove me wrong. And don't claim I didn't put it into that context in my post, because I clearly did. The fact that you pulled it out of the context in which it was said doesn't change that fact.

[Watersaw]

I mean that in the literal sense. Brainstorm is not a very good Magic card in a vacuum, which means you don't have 12+ free shuffle effects in your deck.

I welcome you to play 4 BS in a shuffle-less deck and prove me wrong. And don't claim I didn't put it into that context in my post, ebcause I clearly did.

No game pieces exist in a vacuum. Without a supporting cast Mind's Desire is a worse Unexpected Results.

Screw it, as soon as I'm allowed to leave my house I'll build some janky Ux whatever pauper deck that uses Brainstorm to hit draw triggers or dig for its combo pieces/answers.

[Izor]

No game pieces exist in a vacuum. Without a supporting cast Mind's Desire is a worse Unexpected Results.

Screw it, as soon as I'm allowed to leave my house I'll build some janky Ux whatever pauper deck that uses Brainstorm to hit draw triggers or dig for its combo pieces/answers.

Sounds good. You'll find out quickly enough that there are people who have... you know... played Pauper with blue cards before and who know Brainstorm is plain unplayable if you don't have shuffle effects. Unplayable in this case means that it's outclassed by all the other cantrips.

But I'm sure you'll be the one who finds the one deck that this doesn't apply to. Good luck digging for your combo with 2 dead cards on top all the time.

Sure, no game exists in a vacuum. I was only talking about a Legacy in which fetchlands were banned/not present and said BS would not be a good card in that format. I thought that was common sense.

[bruizar]

Wipe this meme from the face of the earth. I understand this is the designated shitposting thread but we gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE

Brainstorm was always a terribly yanky card. It wasn't until Onslaught that Brainstorm became a thing. Prior to fetch Brainstorm locking yourself wasn't the outlier, it was all that the card did.

[Mr. Safety]

So now the question follows: are companions inherently broken by giving you an extra card (even a sub-optimal one) or was the real offender Lurrus/Zirda due to their particular effects? The opportunity cost of one sideboard slot for a guaranteed 8th starting card is very low. My opinion so far is that the mechanic itself won't be good for the game at all, even with Lurrrus/Zirda gone from Eternal formats, and this is just a way to buy time for selling packs. Then the mechanic will be formally eradicated with bans across formats.

Did anyone else notice that for the other formats that they might reevaluate how the mechanic works? They seem to be willing to adjust rulings for those formats but not Legacy and Vintage. If you were ever in doubt about how WOTC feels about those formats, this is about as big of a middle finger as they could throw at us.

[Hardcore]

Fetchlands are still good value with no BS in the deck, but the other way round does not hold true.
So I agree with ban the fetches position.
BTW, I bought my fetches initially to make Sensei's divining top playable in my pox deck...

[Fox]

@Mr.Safety the bonus card at the cost of deckbuilding restriction & advertising what deck you’re on before any game 1 mull decisions can only be said to be balanced against a non-companion 7 card keep. A mull to 6 vs companion is an effective mull to 5, and a mull to 5 is as winnable as a mull to 4.

They still need to update rules to say all mulls by a non-companion deck vs a declared companion are made at -1 card penalty. Until this is fixed all companion winrates are boosted to the point that we’ll never know if the mechanic is balanced - imagine playing any deck where all opponents who ever take a single mull against you begin at 5 cards, your winrate stats wouldn’t mean anything.

[Purple Blood]

So now the question follows: are companions inherently broken by giving you an extra card (even a sub-optimal one) or was the real offender Lurrus/Zirda due to their particular effects? The opportunity cost of one sideboard slot for a guaranteed 8th starting card is very low. My opinion so far is that the mechanic itself won't be good for the game at all, even with Lurrrus/Zirda gone from Eternal formats, and this is just a way to buy time for selling packs. Then the mechanic will be formally eradicated with bans across formats.

Did anyone else notice that for the other formats that they might reevaluate how the mechanic works? They seem to be willing to adjust rulings for those formats but not Legacy and Vintage. If you were ever in doubt about how WOTC feels about those formats, this is about as big of a middle finger as they could throw at us.

It's just such a shitty mechanic. I can't imagine it ever adding something positive to the game. It also just feels like something that shouldn't be part of the game since it breaks so many core principles e.g. starting hand size and randomness of draws.

The question is whether WOTC will be fine with 50% of the decks in every format being Yorion decks or whether that gets banned next.

On Arena, and at least in my experience, Traditional Ranked Standard seems like 75% 3-5c Yorion piles that all do the same thing. Leads to boring gameplay because every game is literally the same thing over and over.

I expect a lot of the same thing to happen in Legacy. A lot of the Lurrus decks will switch to being Yorion decks. There's almost no downside to playing an extra 20 cards because there is so much redundancy.

Then let's say they ban Yorion, a lot of decks can switch to some other companion because a lot of them are basically free rolls. Not so OP that it should be banned but still dumb that some decks will get to start with an extra card just because.

I wish they would just errata Companions in someway to basically remove the mechanic from the game. At the very least they should have it take a slot in your starting hand as opposed to a sideboard slot.

[Seymour_Asses]

So now the question follows: are companions inherently broken by giving you an extra card (even a sub-optimal one) or was the real offender Lurrus/Zirda due to their particular effects? The opportunity cost of one sideboard slot for a guaranteed 8th starting card is very low. My opinion so far is that the mechanic itself won't be good for the game at all, even with Lurrrus/Zirda gone from Eternal formats, and this is just a way to buy time for selling packs. Then the mechanic will be formally eradicated with bans across formats.

A man can dream...

[Sella]

So now the question follows: are companions inherently broken by giving you an extra card (even a sub-optimal one) or was the real offender Lurrus/Zirda due to their particular effects? The opportunity cost of one sideboard slot for a guaranteed 8th starting card is very low. My opinion so far is that the mechanic itself won't be good for the game at all, even with Lurrrus/Zirda gone from Eternal formats, and this is just a way to buy time for selling packs. Then the mechanic will be formally eradicated with bans across formats.

Did anyone else notice that for the other formats that they might reevaluate how the mechanic works? They seem to be willing to adjust rulings for those formats but not Legacy and Vintage. If you were ever in doubt about how WOTC feels about those formats, this is about as big of a middle finger as they could throw at us.

I assume they'll also be printing more companions, so we have that to look forwards to :)

Disappointed but not surprised about the banlist, its literally one Zirda away from being the bare minimum. I would've loved a Labe ban (and the Companion mechanic nuked) but oh well. I might just give up on D&T dreams and throw together Spiral Tide, or maybe that list you posted in the Pox thread.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I honestly never saw zirda, but saw it floating around various post discussions because of monolith. Was it really that good?

Also astrolabe needs to go if fetches do.

[Fox]

I honestly never saw zirda, but saw it floating around various post discussions because of monolith. Was it really that good?

Also astrolabe needs to go if fetches do.

It was a pretty aggressive ban, but it's quite easy to see the trajectory the deck would take as it effortlessly and consistently butchers not-blue fair decks (removal, their prime way to interact, ain't ever stopping infinite mana which equals auto-loss to Ballista or Karn).

Just another example of poor design where every reduced cost past the first [per turn] didn't put a -1/-1 counter on Zirda. Why it's so hard to build in a speed limit like that is hard to fathom.

On Astrolabe without Fetches, it would be fine. You have an abundant amount of ways to color fix: Mirage Fetch, Evolving Wilds, Ash Barrens, Tithe (any white dual), Land Grant (any green dual), and many others. Question is whether or not you want speed (untapped mana) or skew towards more powerful effects (Brainstorm, Sanctuary at cost of the occasional Fetch with etb tapped clause).

At the end of the day you're still competing against fairly unaffected cores of legacy (Cavern/Vial, Mox/Loam, Sol Land/Chalice), and you're going to need an equalizer.

[FTW]

I don't see how Fetchlands vs Brainstorm is even a debate...

A comparison format already exists: Pauper. Brainstorm is bad in Pauper. Monoblue has always played 4 Ponder + 4 Preordain + 0 Brainstorm. That says everything that needs to be said.
(Since Ash Barrens, Brainstorm is run by multicolor decks with enough shuffle effects from Barrens + Evolving Wilds, but not in decks without them)

But fetchlands don't need to be banned. WOTC already identified the problem and solved it with Pioneer. Players who don't want all the shenanigans enabled by fetchlands can play Pioneer.

Legacy is reserved as the format for players to enjoy 4 Brainstorm + fetchlands, an interaction you can't use in any other format. Otherwise they clearly want players to play other formats instead.

[ahg113]

For those that want to protect brainstorm, because Pioneer is not a viable alternative, neither is modern keep the cantrip, ditch the pushed creatures.

Specifically - Delver, TNN, Clique, Snappy. If those creatures add dynamic game play, or something something, relocate them to different colors (tirbes change as/if necessary). Delver :r:, TNN :w:, Clique :b:, Snappy :r:. Making blue decks stretch further for their goods, not being able to be pitched to FoW, those are the balance effects missing in legacy.

Or ban brainstorm.

Edit - add Oko too.

[phonics]

Brainstorm + Fetchlands are never getting banned, I assume it is the hill that maro will die on with regards to legacy. This was decided long ago, and the format has since been warped around the power of these cards. They have shown through their card printings that they want legacy to be the format of blue card consistency + other wacky-not-as-competitive stuff. If you dont like playing blue cantrips you just have to accept this or deal with the fact that legacy isn't the format for you and go play something else unfortunately.

[jmlima]

Brainstorm + Fetchlands are never getting banned, I assume it is the hill that maro will die on with regards to legacy. ...

I'm also pretty certain of that but for a different reason. I think, judging from the latest events and designs that wotc is struggling with what to do with the game. On the one hand they need new and shiny splashy things to keep selling packs, on the other, they keep being tormented by old formats on which they (by their own statements) do not focus on or even consider when designing new sets. The virtually 100% online play at this moment brings the problems to light way faster than the paper metagame did, since they cannot hide for months behind a wall of 'waiting for enough results to take action'. I think at some point in the future they will have a hard decision to make which is to quite simply throw these old formats under the 'official' bus and hand them over to the 'community' to do as they see fit. This will leave them to focus solely on standard / limited / pioneer under whatever name it will have then. This way it will be far easier for them to bring new splashy things in each set with minimum risk of breaking every single format making them look like total idiots.

As it is, they cannot keep taking money from people for playing these old formats (via mtgo) and not do anything when the result of their actions is to break them with every new release. Clearly they like very much the money they make from them, but also clearly this current state of affairs will be progressively difficult to manage for them and the introduction of new mechanics will be impeded upon by these formats which in turn will affect their bottom line with regards to standard / limited.

The other side of this argument is that they are just bad at what they do as evidenced by the fact that standard has got 4 cards banned, something that should not happen if they indeed design taking standard into account. Under this argument we are heading for some chaotic few years ahead until pressure is too much and they will have to let the entire design team go and start that competence area from scratch.

[Barook]

Brainstorm + Fetchlands are never getting banned, I assume it is the hill that maro will die on with regards to legacy. This was decided long ago, and the format has since been warped around the power of these cards. They have shown through their card printings that they want legacy to be the format of blue card consistency + other wacky-not-as-competitive stuff. If you dont like playing blue cantrips you just have to accept this or deal with the fact that legacy isn't the format for you and go play something else unfortunately.
It would help if we had card draw hate in the same abundance and quality of GY hate. Card draw is one of the strongest actions in the game, yet it basically goes unpunished - except by a few, expensive, one-sided blue cards (Leovold, Narset, Notion Thief if you want to be generous). Find the flaw. Chains isn't really playable and Spirit of the Labyrinth is even worse. That's it.

Give us cheap, quality symmetrical hate, not some stupid garbage like Mental Misstep that blue decks can abuse the most (I'm looking at you, Veil of Summer). E.g. why not a pitchable white creature with flash that jams the draws of both players? Against normal cantrips, it would trade the prevented draw with the pitched card, all while the cantrip player could still manipulate their library. Only playing Brainstorm would get super-punished.

[Izor]

Symmetrical draw hosers are always going to have that issue that they just don't seem to have a place in any existing Legacy deck. The only decks I can think of that want them are non-blue non-aggro decks, and that limits it to pretty much DnT and some more whacky stuff like Pox.

Combo decks usually need their own cantrips and they also don't care much about the opponent cantripping. They only care about their Forces and hate.

Fair blue decks badly want them to break the mirrors, but that will only allow one-sided draw hosing effects like Leovold and Narset. And I honestly don't expect us to get anything more efficient than those. Getting similar effects in other colors such as white and black would be interesting, but ultimately it would still only be the fair UX decks that would play them.

The other option would be something that would already be a very efficiently costed card by itself and have the hosing ability stapled on it. I'm thinking at least 2 power on a 2-drop to be a viable silver bullet in DnT you can find with Recruiter. In order for it to be a 4-of it would almost have to be Kird Ape stats, if not Nacatl/Delver/Goyf stats already.

Thinking about it... that would be a very interesting card. Stats that keep up with Delver's creature suite, but with a universal extra-card-drawing-hosing-ability stapled on it. What would a 3/3 Spirit of the Labyrinth for 1 generic mana do to the format? Ignoring the fact that they can and will never print this into any set, I don't think it would actually be broken in Legacy. Maybe it would enable decks to fill a niche that has been void since Zoo died... Maybe it would hurt Delver the most, because they couldn't keep up with something that hates on their drawing and keeps up with their threats on board at the same time. Maybe it would make Maverick/DnT the best deck in the format, idk. I'll take anything over UrokoSnow.pile right now.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

H went to all that work to update some primers and now has to re-update them all. Bummer.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[H]

H went to all that work to update some primers and now has to re-update them all. Bummer.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Such is the life. The only constant is change.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Brainstorm + Fetchlands are never getting banned, I assume it is the hill that maro will die on with regards to legacy.

EDIT: Yeah, even jokingly, let's not do that.

[H]

Let's try to keep ourselves on track and discuss cards and/or policies, please, thank you.

[Cire]

https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/618491301863833601/i-saw-this-in-the-latest-br-announcement-if-we

"Companion is having ripples throughout almost all of the constructed formats in a way no singular mechanic ever has. It might call for special action."

Should the Storm Scale be re-branded the Companion Scale? :tongue:

[FTW]

It would help if we had card draw hate in the same abundance and quality of GY hate. Card draw is one of the strongest actions in the game, yet it basically goes unpunished - except by a few, expensive, one-sided blue cards (Leovold, Narset, Notion Thief if you want to be generous). Find the flaw. Chains isn't really playable and Spirit of the Labyrinth is even worse. That's it.

Leovold and Narset are good because they're 1-sided and blue, meaning you can outdraw the opponent in blue mirrors and end up ahead even if they do remove your hate. Symmetrical nonblue effects don't allow that.

Spirit of the Labyrinth was supposed to be the long-waited card draw hate for D&T. The problem is a nonblue card that just hates on card draw isn't good enough to play. You stop their card advantage, but then you don't get card advantage either. Eventually they 1-for-1 trade with your creature and outdraw you. What would a better version look like?

Chains of Mephistopheles has always been playable in some Pox builds. The problem is being symmetrical keeps it out of UBx decks, combo decks don't need to run hate, and there are basically no playable noncombo decks that run black but not blue. Deadguy Ale could maybe run it, since Chains doesn't interact with Dark Confidant.

There's another problem. These 2 cmc permanents that say "players can't cast Brainstorm until this card is removed" are competing with another piece of 2 cmc symmetrical card draw hate that already sees wide play: Chalice of the Void. Chalice costs the same, is harder to kill than Spirit, shuts off even more cards, doesn't restrict your colors, and can be cast off 1 land. Why would you play something else?

[Fox]

The bigger problem with Spirit of the Labyrinth is that monarch and SoFI conspicuously require the user to attempt to draw on that same turn. Meanwhile you’re getting styled on by Portent, and until the Lurrus ban Bauble.

[FTW]

The bigger problem with Spirit of the Labyrinth is that monarch and SoFI conspicuously require the user to attempt to draw on that same turn. Meanwhile you’re getting styled on by Portent, and until the Lurrus ban Bauble.

Spirit saw little play even after its release, before Palace Jailer or Lurrus-Bauble, and when SoFaI had fallen out of favor as a maindeck SFM target. Some decks tried it. It just wasn't that good and the body dies to anything.

[Barook]

Spirit of the Labyrinth was supposed to be the long-waited card draw hate for D&T. The problem is a nonblue card that just hates on card draw isn't good enough to play. You stop their card advantage, but then you don't get card advantage either. Eventually they 1-for-1 trade with your creature and outdraw you. What would a better version look like?

There's another problem. These 2 cmc permanents that say "players can't cast Brainstorm until this card is removed" are competing with another piece of 2 cmc symmetrical card draw hate that already sees wide play: Chalice of the Void. Chalice costs the same, is harder to kill than Spirit, shuts off even more cards, doesn't restrict your colors, and can be cast off 1 land. Why would you play something else?
The problems with Spirit are manifold - it's a complete dud in combat, it still allows to circumvent certain the draw restriction to a certain degree and, the worst offender, it's way too fucking slow. At 2 mana sorcery speed, you aren't going to catch instant speed 1 mana spells. There's no "Gotcha!" moment with this. It's like you're trying to win against a racing car which has a head start while you're riding a tricycle. It just isn't going to work out. Instant speed would be the minimum requirement to be competitive, and either a 1-mana cost or being able to pitch cards to keep up with the speed. There's design space open that isn't used - and depending on the card design, it could help to reign broken bullshit in to a certain degree.

As for Chalice - not every deck is able to run it. E.g. D&T or Maverick run quite a few relevant one-drops.


The bigger problem with Spirit of the Labyrinth is that monarch and SoFI conspicuously require the user to attempt to draw on that same turn. Meanwhile you’re getting styled on by Portent, and until the Lurrus ban Bauble.
What I never understood is why WotC chose "only 1 card per turn" for their draw jammers. I get that the "except the first card in the draw step, yada, yada, yada" is too wordy and inelegant, but why can't they choose a similiar wording which they've already used against discard?


Spells and abilities can't cause players to draw extra cards.

Is there anything that isn't covered by this, like any replacement effects I'm missing? Because covering spells, activated and triggered abilities should cover the full spectrum of relevant draw.

[Fox]

As long as you haven’t actually drawn a card this turn, dredge is a replacement effect that is an untouchable way to avoid that wording.

[FTW]

At 2 mana sorcery speed, you aren't going to catch instant speed 1 mana spells. There's no "Gotcha!" moment with this. ... Instant speed would be the minimum requirement to be competitive, and either a 1-mana cost or being able to pitch cards to keep up with the speed. There's design space open that isn't used - and depending on the card design, it could help to reign broken bullshit in to a certain degree.

So you want a 1 mana instant hoser instead? Like Veil of Summer...

The problem is blue decks can easily splash 1 mana instants. Either they're too weak to play, or they're good enough hosers that blue plays it too.
Red Elemental Blast probably sees more play in blue decks than nonblue decks. REB and Pyroblast have already existed for ages. If you want a 1 mana instant that doesn't just hose 1 card but has a permanent effect, that might be overpowered.

Pitch cards (0 cmc)...do you remember Mental Misstep? Cards with cheap costs are easy to splash in blue decks. The only way to keep them out of blue decks is to either give them prohibitive mana costs or give them drawbacks that punish blue players.

Deafening Silence is probably the most balanced 1-mana hoser that blue can't abuse (symmetrical). It sees a lot of play and should see even more.

A hypothetical card:
Nature's Will - G - Instant
Rebound
Players can't draw additional cards until your next turn. Sacrifice 3 Islands.

[Cire]

W
Companion — Your starting deck may not run islands (If this card is your chosen companion, you may cast it once from outside the game.)
Each player can’t draw more than one card each turn.
0/1

:tongue:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

W
Companion — Your starting deck may not run islands (If this card is your chosen companion, you may cast it once from outside the game.)
Each opponent can’t draw more than one card each turn.
0/1

:tongue:

Ftfy. If you can't play Islands, I think you should still be able to draw cards. I don't think it's fair to give GW Maverick this card and then say that they can't play Sylvan Library and Painful Truths. It's only once that they can play it from outside the game, and early creatures on the board rarely survive long.

I like it.

Edit: They will just play it as a 4-of main, ignore companion and run it with Islands. I hate it.

[Barook]

So you want a 1 mana instant hoser instead? Like Veil of Summer...

The problem is blue decks can easily splash 1 mana instants. Either they're too weak to play, or they're good enough hosers that blue plays it too.
Red Elemental Blast probably sees more play in blue decks than nonblue decks. REB and Pyroblast have already existed for ages. If you want a 1 mana instant that doesn't just hose 1 card but has a permanent effect, that might be overpowered.

Pitch cards (0 cmc)...do you remember Mental Misstep? Cards with cheap costs are easy to splash in blue decks. The only way to keep them out of blue decks is to either give them prohibitive mana costs or give them drawbacks that punish blue players.

Deafening Silence is probably the most balanced 1-mana hoser that blue can't abuse (symmetrical). It sees a lot of play and should see even more.

A hypothetical card:
Nature's Will - G - Instant
Rebound
Players can't draw additional cards until your next turn. Sacrifice 3 Islands.
You fail to see the same design trap over and over again - not that R&D is any better. Instants like Mental Misstep or Veil of Summer are design mistakes because they can be run best by the things they're trying to hate - with zero drawback for the deck that it runs. It's like you're trying to put out a fire by pouring gasoline onto it.

Symmetrical permanent hate is the only solution that works here. Everything else will be run by blue decks to fuck over other blue decks if said card is good enough, mana costs be damned. Veil of Summer is the best example for that. Narset in Vintage was so oppressive that it had to be restricted. Mental Misstep made one of the most blue metas ever. Do Xerox decks abuse Chalice? No, they don't, because it would fuck them over.

Makes you wonder why a white "Leyline of Draw Hate" (symmetrical) isn't a thing yet. If Leyline of the Void can utterly destroy GY decks, I don't see why one for draw-abusing decks shouldn't exist.

[Fox]

I feel like Snapcaster Mage abuses the living crap out of Deafening Silence. :laugh:

[FTW]

You fail to see the same design trap over and over again

I fail to see the very thing I pointed out in my own posts?


Instants like Mental Misstep or Veil of Summer are design mistakes because they can be run best by the things they're trying to hate - with zero drawback for the deck that it runs.

Yeah, that's what I said earlier. Then I created a hypothetical card with a symmetrical effect that can't be run by the things they're trying to hate because "sacrifice 3 Islands", then "sacrifice 3 Islands again".


Symmetrical permanent hate is the only solution that works here.

Symmetrical 0-1 cmc permanent hate with Flash is arguably too powerful, just invalidating all other nonblue sorcery speed effects because it also acts as a counterspell. Rebound is one way to balance that... halfway in between a Flash permanent and an instant, giving you an effect for 2 turns.

Otherwise Deafening Silence is a better model for permanent hate. It's symmetrical and still fast enough to be relevant, but restricted by sorcery speed. Though Snapcaster Mage can still abuse it lol.

G - Enchantment
Each player may only draw one card per turn cycle.

[BirdsOfParadise]

What’s the mission statement for Legacy?

What is Legacy that it should not be?

What isn’t Legacy that it should be?

What problems ought to be solved?

Excluding nostalgia as a factor, were there periods in which Legacy was different or better than now?

I’ll have a stab at a partial mission statement, but I’m mainly curious about other people’s answers.

“Legacy is a format that houses very complex decks, since the card pool is so deep. The decks in Legacy have undergone years, in some cases more than a decade, of refinement. Legacy players appreciate these long-lived, well-crafted decks as works of art and often specialize in a single deck.
Many Legacy decks have no analog in other formats. Players enjoy the process of ongoing refinement, so the occasional small ripple or big change in the format is desirable. Legacy is a deep puzzle, however, and if big changes come in quick succession, there will not be enough time for players to work on each puzzle before the next change.”

Thinking about it this way, the issue isn’t what’s actually on the ban list. What makes the format feel crummy and arbitrary is having things change so fast that there’s no time to process the last change.

Also, I told my wife about players’ reaction to the companions. She said, “They sound like a bunch of whiners.”

[non-inflammable]

G - Enchantment
Each player may only draw one card per turn cycle.


Makes you wonder why a white "Leyline of Draw Hate" (symmetrical) isn't a thing yet. If Leyline of the Void can utterly destroy GY decks, I don't see why one for draw-abusing decks shouldn't exist.

let's make this happen...
https://i.imgur.com/9SL9HJX.jpg

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You guys are working really hard to just not ban brainstorm.

[ahg113]

You guys are working really hard to just not ban brainstorm.

Respect this quote a lot.

[Wrath of Pie]

You guys are working really hard to just not ban brainstorm.
You forgot Ponder, it would likely be banned with a Brainstorm ban.

[ESG]

Spirit saw little play even after its release, before Palace Jailer or Lurrus-Bauble, and when SoFaI had fallen out of favor as a maindeck SFM target. Some decks tried it. It just wasn't that good and the body dies to anything.

Spirit's best asset back then was the random game win when your opponent still drew their cards as normal. This was key to David McDarby winning SCG Portland in 2014.

Vs. 12-Post:
On his main phase, he used Karakas to bounce my Gaddock Teeg and then cast Repeal on my Thalia. I said "resolves," and he immediately drew a card. The only problem was that I still had a Spirit of the Labyrinth in play. We then called a judge, as we both knew what had just happened, and my opponent got a game loss during a game that we both knew I was going to lose.

Then, later on, vs. Death & Taxes:

I didn't think I could lose game 1. I had everything I could ask for. Except we were racing, and then Mirran Crusader hit the table. I couldn't attack into it, block it, or kill it very easily. I was barely treading water by chumping with my few white creatures when Spirit of the Labyrinth struck again: this time with a freshly drawn Horizon Canopy that my opponent immediately cracked when he played it. We both realized it right as the card got to his hand, and he immediately went to put it back. While I explained to the judge that I was positive the card that was put back was indeed the correct card, the deed had been done, and we went on to game 2.

http://old.starcitygames.com/articles/29927_Winning-SCG-Portland--1st-.html

[Seymour_Asses]

You guys are working really hard to just not ban brainstorm.

Ahh... everything's back to normal.

[non-inflammable]

You forgot Ponder, it would likely be banned with a Brainstorm ban.

please explain why...

[Sella]

Spirit's best asset back then was the random game win when your opponent still drew their cards as normal. This was key to David McDarby winning SCG Portland in 2014.

so basically he Nedleeds em

[BirdsOfParadise]

Here's what I don't get.

In Vintage, blue has to be the best color. You could restrict every blue card, and blue would still be a pillar of the format. Workshop is stupidly broken, but leaving it unrestricted (and then restricting every artifact ever) is a way to cram a second pillar into the format. Bazaar is stupidly broken, but leaving it unrestricted is a way to cram a third pillar into the format. You can't escape blue being the best color, and two of the most ridiculous cards are left unrestricted just so nonblue can have a fighting chance.

In Legacy, blue doesn't have to be the best color. Legacy doesn't restrict, it bans. Now, the only tier-0 decks in Legacy have been blue Brainstorm decks, and the majority of tier-1 decks as well. Why should this situation persist for over a decade? A decade is a long time. I see two possibilities:

(1) WotC specifically wants the only tier-0 decks, and most of the tier-1 decks, to be blue Brainstorm decks.

That's a weird thing to specifically want. I imagine they might want it if they think most Legacy players specifically want it. Maybe they think that Legacy players feel smart when they're resolving Brainstorm and smarter when they use it to beat other Legacy players who are not using Brainstorm. I think this is the reason.

(2) WotC doesn't care at all about balance.

I actually wish this were the case. If it were, instead of banning Lurrus and Zirda, they could have:
(*) unbanned Survival (there's plenty of graveyard hate, and Vengevine decks can't play Lurrus)
(*) unbanned Yawgmoth's Bargain (who cares, we have Griselbrand and Ad Nauseam, and Bargain decks can't play Lurrus)
(*) unbanned Mind Twist (nobody makes 4 mana in Legacy, and when they do, it's to win)
(*) unbanned Tinker (the best deck will now be blue? Oh no! At least Tinker decks can't play Lurrus, unless the wincon is Painter)
(*) unbanned Earthcraft (lol)
(*) unbanned Hermit Druid (slightly less lol, but lol)
(*) unbanned Oath (see Tinker)
(*) unbanned Mystical Tutor (what's it gonna fetch, Tinker? Sounds like a non-Lurrus deck, unless it's Painter)
(*) unbanned Bazaar of Baghdad (probably not a companion deck? Plenty of gravehate anyway, Bazaar can be *a* DTB but it gets hated out if it's *the* DTB)
(*) unbanned DRS (why not, right? I mean what's the worst that could happen?)
(*) unbanned Necro (can't run Lurrus, can't be that good)
(*) unbanned Wrenn and Six (can't run Lurrus and W6 and Brainstorm... right? Anyway it'll keep those Hermit Druids in check)
(*) unbanned Flash (can't run Hulk with Lurrus)
(*) unbanned Memory Jar (can't run it with Lurrus)
(*) unbanned Skullclamp (I dunno what people would do with this but I kind of want to see, and anyway it sounds hate-able. Is it YP with FoW backup? doesn't that win anyway if not answered?)

If the worst-case scenario here is that some very powerful blue deck with BS+force+fetches is tier 0 for the next several years, all I can say is, with these wincons that deck will at least close out a game faster than Miracles used to.

I honestly have no idea what they're actually trying to do with the Legacy ban list. It looks like they want to ensure that Brainstorm is tier 0 forever, but you could do that with a much shorter ban list.

[Fox]

Just real quick point there, Lurrus can run and recur W&6.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Just real quick point there, Lurrus can run and recur W&6.
What I meant is that 1{w/b}{w/b} ang RG and U don't seem to all go together.
Maybe there's a Lurrus + W6 deck, but is it really a Brainstorm deck too?

[Fox]

What I meant is that 1{w/b}{w/b} ang RG and U don't seem to all go together.
Maybe there's a Lurrus + W6 deck, but is it really a Brainstorm deck too?

Oh like 100% chance. You think Delver is really above tapping their Karakas, Wasteland target Karakas, [+1] Wrenn target Karakas, replay and tap Karakas into Lurrus? Don’t even need to do all that work if DRS is legal.

Here’s the deck:
DRS x4
Delver x4
Dreadhorde x4
Bolt x4
FoW x4
BS x4
Ponder x4
Daze x4
Wrenn x3
Bauble x3
Snare x2

Trop x1
Usea x3
Volc x3
Delta x4
Tarn x4
Wasteland x4
Karakas x1

companion Lurrus and 14 others. You can put in a second white land, but it’s pretty optional at that power level.

[talpa]

Spirit's best asset back then was the random game win when your opponent still drew their cards as normal. This was key to David McDarby winning SCG Portland in 2014.

Vs. 12-Post:
On his main phase, he used Karakas to bounce my Gaddock Teeg and then cast Repeal on my Thalia. I said "resolves," and he immediately drew a card. The only problem was that I still had a Spirit of the Labyrinth in play. We then called a judge, as we both knew what had just happened, and my opponent got a game loss during a game that we both knew I was going to lose.

Then, later on, vs. Death & Taxes:

I didn't think I could lose game 1. I had everything I could ask for. Except we were racing, and then Mirran Crusader hit the table. I couldn't attack into it, block it, or kill it very easily. I was barely treading water by chumping with my few white creatures when Spirit of the Labyrinth struck again: this time with a freshly drawn Horizon Canopy that my opponent immediately cracked when he played it. We both realized it right as the card got to his hand, and he immediately went to put it back. While I explained to the judge that I was positive the card that was put back was indeed the correct card, the deed had been done, and we went on to game 2.

http://old.starcitygames.com/articles/29927_Winning-SCG-Portland--1st-.html

Don't be too quick to think the joke is on blue players.
Once, turn 1 game 1 of a big event in Italy, I vendilion clique'd my opponent on his draw step and won because he drew a card while having his Spirit in play.
Otherwise the game was unwinnable on my side.

I think it's a good thing the rules changed and the penalty for drawing an extra card was downgraded, even if maybe now there's more room for cheaters

[ESG]

Yeah, I was happy to see that rule change, even if it generally helped me because I was good at remembering triggers and tracking board states. That rule always seemed overly harsh.

[Barook]

Oh like 100% chance. You think Delver is really above tapping their Karakas, Wasteland target Karakas, [+1] Wrenn target Karakas, replay and tap Karakas into Lurrus? Don’t even need to do all that work if DRS is legal.

Here’s the deck:
DRS x4
Delver x4
Dreadhorde x4
Bolt x4
FoW x4
BS x4
Ponder x4
Daze x4
Wrenn x3
Bauble x3
Snare x2

Trop x1
Usea x3
Volc x3
Delta x4
Tarn x4
Wasteland x4
Karakas x1

companion Lurrus and 14 others. You can put in a second white land, but it’s pretty optional at that power level.
Between DRS and Astrolabe, I see little reason why one shouldn't go full 5C clusterfuck for the hell of it.

[Mr. Safety]

Oh like 100% chance. You think Delver is really above tapping their Karakas, Wasteland target Karakas, [+1] Wrenn target Karakas, replay and tap Karakas into Lurrus? Don’t even need to do all that work if DRS is legal.

Here’s the deck:
DRS x4
Delver x4
Dreadhorde x4
Bolt x4
FoW x4
BS x4
Ponder x4
Daze x4
Wrenn x3
Bauble x3
Snare x2

Trop x1
Usea x3
Volc x3
Delta x4
Tarn x4
Wasteland x4
Karakas x1

companion Lurrus and 14 others. You can put in a second white land, but it’s pretty optional at that power level.

That decklist is, quite frankly, disgusting. Easily would be the best deck in the format given all those cards being legal. I think you could actually cut a couple Bolts for Force of Negation and it would be close to optimal.

Regarding Brainstorm, for me it has always been about this question: do we want a format where we can play 4 Brainstorm or not? For me the answer will always be 'yes'. Power level is obviously too high, saturation level is too high, by all reasonable standards it should be banned. So the question isn't 'should it be banned?' because that answer will always be 'yes'. The real question is 'are we ok with a format that has access to it?' If we are, then it's a reality we need to approach accordingly. If we are not comfortable with Brainstorm in the format we can either lobby for change (good luck with that) or play a different format. Forsythe has essentially said Brainstorm is here to stay. The choice is in your hands, not theirs, whether to play Legacy or not.

[Barook]

That decklist is, quite frankly, disgusting. Easily would be the best deck in the format given all those cards being legal. I think you could actually cut a couple Bolts for Force of Negation and it would be close to optimal.

Regarding Brainstorm, for me it has always been about this question: do we want a format where we can play 4 Brainstorm or not? For me the answer will always be 'yes'. Power level is obviously too high, saturation level is too high, by all reasonable standards it should be banned. So the question isn't 'should it be banned?' because that answer will always be 'yes'. The real question is 'are we ok with a format that has access to it?' If we are, then it's a reality we need to approach accordingly. If we are not comfortable with Brainstorm in the format we can either lobby for change (good luck with that) or play a different format. Forsythe has essentially said Brainstorm is here to stay. The choice is in your hands, not theirs, whether to play Legacy or not.
How good would W&6 and Arcanist be with DRS around, though?

[Mr. Safety]

How good would W&6 and Arcanist be with DRS around, though?

I think still pretty good. DRS eats opponent's graveyards while you use your own with W&6/Arcanist. It really becomes a sub-game of 'who gets DRS resolved first' and then 'who keeps DRS around long enough to win the game'. In any sort of mirror match the priority is to counter/kill DRS and then the other card advantage tools take over. Maybe Arcanist/W&6 go down to 2 copies each, but both would still be powerful enough to include.

[H]

please explain why...

Because the same criterion that Brainstorm is banned under, is the same circumstance that Ponder (and likely Preordain) will likely then find themselves in. Because people will always just run the "next best thing." This sort of ban-rubric is a race to the bottom.

If you take the position that, no, the banning of Brainstorm is a special case, you have to justify this case. Why is the Brainstorm case special? Also, since it is plausible that Brainstorm is perfectly fine without the presence of fetch lands, explain why fetch lands wouldn't be the ones banned, especially since cards like Deathrite are only, presumably, good with fetch lands as well. Now you need to articulate why fetch lands are alright and Brainstorm is not. Then, once you have done that, you go right back and look at the resultant meta. What if Tundra has a 75% meta share? Are duals bannable? Why or why not? What about Force of Will?

The issue is, I see no way to articulate a fully spelled out manner and fashion of what "normative" Legacy is. I see no way for there to be "one rubric" of what can and should be banned. So there is no way, in my opinion, to have some cut and dry quantitative meta-threshold, or something else, to define what action should be taken in Legacy.

Legacy just is 4x Brainstorm, by fiat. You can hate it. You can claim that is shouldn't be. But it just is the case. So, you have the option of playing it, fighting against it, or just not playing. You can say none of those are "fair" options and that might well be the case. But the fact of it is, that is the case. Now, you might think I am spuriously making a sort of Is/Ought claim, that because Legacy is the Brainstorm format, it ought to be the Brainstorm format. This is not my point, or my position. I have no idea what Legacy ought to be. The only thing I can possibly do is say what I think Legacy ought not to be. I even tried making a thread to get an idea of what people thought defined/should define Legacy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29003-What-should-quot-define-quot-the-Legacy-format) years ago. I don't dwell in a place of hypothetical card-pools. There is a near infinite amount of hypothetical card-pools and I'm not interested in any of them, really.

In our play group, we have a running joke of saying "just play your cards." It applies to a lot of things, but works here as well. Just play your cards. Is Brainstorm oppressive? Maybe. Then just play it. Or, fight it. If you say, "well, I shouldn't have to" well, I'm sorry, but if you want to play nominal Legacy, you do. But no one makes you play Legacy. If you don't like it, don't play it. If you think some other card pool is "better," make that case. Get other people on board and play that format. But the idea that "Optimal Legacy," like Shangri-La is just out there, waiting for someone to discover this utopian ideal card-pool where every card is rationally justified in it's existence, where no card could unjustly impose itself on any others, where anything and everything is viable and everyone gets a free lunch. But actual Legacy, the Legacy we have and are likely to always have to varying degrees is actually a intuitionally derived hell-hole, where the only way you stay alive is by taking life from something else, where caprice and whim define existence and every moment is a struggle to survive.

If you want utopia Legacy, then go on and show us how it can be done. Not by some hypothetical rational exercise, but with actual empirical results. Then we might see that this hypothetical card pool really is the promised "ideal" one. Until then, no, "we" are not likely to accept the notion that "Optimal Legacy" is only a ban away.

So, why is Lurrus ban-worthy where Brainstorm is not? I don't know. But I agree with it. Whether it is a notion of historicism, or of perception, or whatever, once again, you will never get to "Optimal Legacy" with a fully-rationalized ban-rubric. But, then again, maybe I am wrong. If so, I'd invite anyone to come up with a fully-rational, articulated, quantitative and qualitative manner to conclusively display what is "Optimal Legacy" and what is expressly not.

In the mean time, I'll just play my cards.

[Ronald Deuce]

Because the same criterion that Brainstorm is banned under, is the same circumstance that Ponder (and likely Preordain) will likely then find themselves in. Because people will always just run the "next best thing." This sort of ban-rubric is a race to the bottom.

If you take the position that, no, the banning of Brainstorm is a special case, you have to justify this case. Why is the Brainstorm case special? Also, since it is plausible that Brainstorm is perfectly fine without the presence of fetch lands, explain why fetch lands wouldn't be the ones banned, especially since cards like Deathrite are only, presumably, good with fetch lands as well. Now you need to articulate why fetch lands are alright and Brainstorm is not. Then, once you have done that, you go right back and look at the resultant meta. What if Tundra has a 75% meta share? Are duals bannable? Why or why not? What about Force of Will?

The issue is, I see no way to articulate a fully spelled out manner and fashion of what "normative" Legacy is. I see no way for there to be "one rubric" of what can and should be banned. So there is no way, in my opinion, to have some cut and dry quantitative meta-threshold, or something else, to define what action should be taken in Legacy.

Legacy just is 4x Brainstorm, by fiat. You can hate it. You can claim that is shouldn't be. But it just is the case. So, you have the option of playing it, fighting against it, or just not playing. You can say none of those are "fair" options and that might well be the case. But the fact of it is, that is the case. Now, you might think I am spuriously making a sort of Is/Ought claim, that because Legacy is the Brainstorm format, it ought to be the Brainstorm format. This is not my point, or my position. I have no idea what Legacy ought to be. The only thing I can possibly do is say what I think Legacy ought not to be. I even tried making a thread to get an idea of what people thought defined/should define Legacy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29003-What-should-quot-define-quot-the-Legacy-format) years ago. I don't dwell in a place of hypothetical card-pools. There is a near infinite amount of hypothetical card-pools and I'm not interested in any of them, really.

In our play group, we have a running joke of saying "just play your cards." It applies to a lot of things, but works here as well. Just play your cards. Is Brainstorm oppressive? Maybe. Then just play it. Or, fight it. If you say, "well, I shouldn't have to" well, I'm sorry, but if you want to play nominal Legacy, you do. But no one makes you play Legacy. If you don't like it, don't play it. If you think some other card pool is "better," make that case. Get other people on board and play that format. But the idea that "Optimal Legacy," like Shangri-La is just out there, waiting for someone to discover this utopian ideal card-pool where every card is rationally justified in it's existence, where no card could unjustly impose itself on any others, where anything and everything is viable and everyone gets a free lunch. But actual Legacy, the Legacy we have and are likely to always have to varying degrees is actually a intuitionally derived hell-hole, where the only way you stay alive is by taking life from something else, where caprice and whim define existence and every moment is a struggle to survive.

If you want utopia Legacy, then go on and show us how it can be done. Not by some hypothetical rational exercise, but with actual empirical results. Then we might see that this hypothetical card pool really is the promised "ideal" one. Until then, no, "we" are not likely to accept the notion that "Optimal Legacy" is only a ban away.

So, why is Lurrus ban-worthy where Brainstorm is not? I don't know. But I agree with it. Whether it is a notion of historicism, or of perception, or whatever, once again, you will never get to "Optimal Legacy" with a fully-rationalized ban-rubric. But, then again, maybe I am wrong. If so, I'd invite anyone to come up with a fully-rational, articulated, quantitative and qualitative manner to conclusively display what is "Optimal Legacy" and what is expressly not.

In the mean time, I'll just play my cards.

Can someone sticky this?

[non-inflammable]

It would help if we had card draw hate in the same abundance and quality of GY hate. Card draw is one of the strongest actions in the game, yet it basically goes unpunished

please!?!



In the mean time, I'll just play my cards.

here on some of my cards that i was able to find in less than 5 minutes, can i play these cards?
https://i.imgur.com/4zVLAlx.jpg

i get your well-written but laissez-faire post; SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC and Probe were sacrificed on the altar of BS.

would banning BS be a bigger blow to legacy than banning fetchlands?
how about unbanning these cards: SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC , Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

There isn't a problem wth any other card draw in legacy. it's just BS.

[H]

here on some of my cards that i was able to find in less than 5 minutes, can i play these cards?
https://i.imgur.com/4zVLAlx.jpg

i get your laissez-faire post but i'll just add this: SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC and Probe were sacrificed on the altar of BS.

would banning BS be a bigger blow to legacy than banning fetchlands?
how about unbanning these cards: SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC , Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

Can I play my Time Walk or Ancestral Recall?

Once again, you make the claim that Brainstorm is what got SDT and the rest banned, but as multiple people have pointed out, that really was more likely fetchlands.

That being said, SDT is an idiotic card, in my opinion. But that is neither here nor there. The issue with your Brainstorm vitriol is that, if we were to ban Brainstorm and unban all those other things, what makes you think that is a better format?

Once again, your hypothetical card-pool, with Mana Drain, for example, legal, is A-OK because there wouldn't be Brainstorm. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say that we are banning Fetchlands and Brainstorm, really, Mana Drain? Under what auspices am I to take this suggestion seriously? Mana Drain would fundamentally punish any deck that attempts to resolve a spell with a CMC over 1 when the opponent has UU open. If you think the format is Blue heavy now, just wait until you can't even think of trying to resolve a spell without costing yourself a huge amount of tempo in the process, by losing your threat and giving your opponent mana to play theirs.

I could go on, but your proposed unban list looks nearly like a gish gallop to me and I do have a job for the moment, and that job isn't to disprove the health and viability of any list you hypothetically throw together. You already expose your position when you ask, "is banning Brainstorm a bigger blow to Legacy than fetchlands" though, because you do realize that Legacy, as such, is literally predicated on them. That is, whatever does define Legacy is at least in part, Brainstorm and fetchlands. You want a differential Legacy card-pool? Make that case. The burden of proof is on you, not me. I already have a Legacy card pool at hand that I feel is worth playing/exploring and that is the current existent, legal card pool. And so does my local play-group.

Again, I am not asking you to like it. I am not telling you to accept it. But the fact of the matter is, that is Legacy and until someone actually demonstrates that Legacy minus or plus some cards is demonstrably better, I will continue to be overtly skeptical and stake out my position, time and time again.

[Zombie]

Regarding Brainstorm, for me it has always been about this question: do we want a format where we can play 4 Brainstorm or not? For me the answer will always be 'yes'. Power level is obviously too high, saturation level is too high, by all reasonable standards it should be banned. So the question isn't 'should it be banned?' because that answer will always be 'yes'. The real question is 'are we ok with a format that has access to it?' If we are, then it's a reality we need to approach accordingly. If we are not comfortable with Brainstorm in the format we can either lobby for change (good luck with that) or play a different format. Forsythe has essentially said Brainstorm is here to stay. The choice is in your hands, not theirs, whether to play Legacy or not.

I was about to say that Pauper exists, Brainstorm is legal and playable in tier 1 decks but you have to build around it to justify its inclusion. Took a look at goldfish, and LSV just went and top8'd with this:

UR Faeries
4 Augur of Bolas
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Spellstutter Sprite

4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Tragic Lesson

3 Counterspell
1 Deprive
3 Force Spike

4 Skred
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire // Ice

3 Ash Barrens
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Mystic Sanctuary
9 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Mountain

//Sideboard:
1 Curfew
1 Echoing Truth
1 Electrickery
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Hydroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Swirling Sandstorm


If you don't ban Xerox, Xerox will come for you.

[Megadeus]

You guys are working really hard to just not ban brainstorm.

I came here to say this but I'm glad someone else beat me to it

[H]

I'm not working hard at all. In fact, I do exactly zero work to keep it Brainstorm legal. Wizards does it for me.

All I actually do is play the cards that are legal in the format. Seems like people are doing much more to figure out ways to interpret Legacy as something that ought to be without Brainstorm (or fetch lands, or whatever). But, you can interpret things as it serves your interest, of course.

[phonics]

I'm not working hard at all. In fact, I do exactly zero work to keep it Brainstorm legal. Wizards does it for me.

All I actually do is play the cards that are legal in the format. Seems like people are doing much more to figure out ways to interpret Legacy as something that ought to be without Brainstorm (or fetch lands, or whatever). But, you can interpret things as it serves your interest, of course.

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the 'debate' that dominates this thread. The discussion is mostly between a group of realists that see that brainstorm is untouchable and idealists that want brainstorm gone. There isnt any meaningful discussion because both sides aren't even approaching the issue in the same context.

[Cire]

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the 'debate' that dominates this thread. The discussion is mostly between a group of realists that see that brainstorm is untouchable and idealists that want brainstorm gone. There isnt any meaningful discussion because both sides aren't even approaching the issue in the same context.

Great Summation

[CptHaddock]

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the 'debate' that dominates this thread. The discussion is mostly between a group of realists that see that brainstorm is untouchable and idealists that want brainstorm gone. There isnt any meaningful discussion because both sides aren't even approaching the issue in the same context.

Brainstorm and the fetches are just like workshops and bazaar in vintage. They should have been banned a long time ago (when the formats started) but it's far too late and they've been so ingrained in the formats to do anything about them. They're never going to axed, period.

[H]

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the 'debate' that dominates this thread. The discussion is mostly between a group of realists that see that brainstorm is untouchable and idealists that want brainstorm gone. There isnt any meaningful discussion because both sides aren't even approaching the issue in the same context.

Fundamentally correct analysis, I think. Funny part, for me personally, being that I am much more of an idealist and not a realist in many (most?) ways. In fact, if we looked back far enough, I was actually well in the "Ban Brainstorm" camp years ago. Then I realized the position just was not tennible, or rational, to me, in many ways I came to recognize.

[Mr. Safety]

Because the same criterion that Brainstorm is banned under, is the same circumstance that Ponder (and likely Preordain) will likely then find themselves in. Because people will always just run the "next best thing." This sort of ban-rubric is a race to the bottom.

If you take the position that, no, the banning of Brainstorm is a special case, you have to justify this case. Why is the Brainstorm case special? Also, since it is plausible that Brainstorm is perfectly fine without the presence of fetch lands, explain why fetch lands wouldn't be the ones banned, especially since cards like Deathrite are only, presumably, good with fetch lands as well. Now you need to articulate why fetch lands are alright and Brainstorm is not. Then, once you have done that, you go right back and look at the resultant meta. What if Tundra has a 75% meta share? Are duals bannable? Why or why not? What about Force of Will?

The issue is, I see no way to articulate a fully spelled out manner and fashion of what "normative" Legacy is. I see no way for there to be "one rubric" of what can and should be banned. So there is no way, in my opinion, to have some cut and dry quantitative meta-threshold, or something else, to define what action should be taken in Legacy.

Legacy just is 4x Brainstorm, by fiat. You can hate it. You can claim that is shouldn't be. But it just is the case. So, you have the option of playing it, fighting against it, or just not playing. You can say none of those are "fair" options and that might well be the case. But the fact of it is, that is the case. Now, you might think I am spuriously making a sort of Is/Ought claim, that because Legacy is the Brainstorm format, it ought to be the Brainstorm format. This is not my point, or my position. I have no idea what Legacy ought to be. The only thing I can possibly do is say what I think Legacy ought not to be. I even tried making a thread to get an idea of what people thought defined/should define Legacy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29003-What-should-quot-define-quot-the-Legacy-format) years ago. I don't dwell in a place of hypothetical card-pools. There is a near infinite amount of hypothetical card-pools and I'm not interested in any of them, really.

In our play group, we have a running joke of saying "just play your cards." It applies to a lot of things, but works here as well. Just play your cards. Is Brainstorm oppressive? Maybe. Then just play it. Or, fight it. If you say, "well, I shouldn't have to" well, I'm sorry, but if you want to play nominal Legacy, you do. But no one makes you play Legacy. If you don't like it, don't play it. If you think some other card pool is "better," make that case. Get other people on board and play that format. But the idea that "Optimal Legacy," like Shangri-La is just out there, waiting for someone to discover this utopian ideal card-pool where every card is rationally justified in it's existence, where no card could unjustly impose itself on any others, where anything and everything is viable and everyone gets a free lunch. But actual Legacy, the Legacy we have and are likely to always have to varying degrees is actually a intuitionally derived hell-hole, where the only way you stay alive is by taking life from something else, where caprice and whim define existence and every moment is a struggle to survive.

If you want utopia Legacy, then go on and show us how it can be done. Not by some hypothetical rational exercise, but with actual empirical results. Then we might see that this hypothetical card pool really is the promised "ideal" one. Until then, no, "we" are not likely to accept the notion that "Optimal Legacy" is only a ban away.

So, why is Lurrus ban-worthy where Brainstorm is not? I don't know. But I agree with it. Whether it is a notion of historicism, or of perception, or whatever, once again, you will never get to "Optimal Legacy" with a fully-rationalized ban-rubric. But, then again, maybe I am wrong. If so, I'd invite anyone to come up with a fully-rational, articulated, quantitative and qualitative manner to conclusively display what is "Optimal Legacy" and what is expressly not.

In the mean time, I'll just play my cards.

Just piping in, I love this post. Outlining the is/ought argument was awesome.

[Mr. Safety]

I was about to say that Pauper exists, Brainstorm is legal and playable in tier 1 decks but you have to build around it to justify its inclusion.

I forgot Pauper was a format, and I like your post. Yes it's a 'sub-optimal' set of fetchlands that works with Brainstorm, but it's still fetchlands, and in a format that is arguably the most balanced.

[Mr. Safety]

I think there is a general misunderstanding of the 'debate' that dominates this thread. The discussion is mostly between a group of realists that see that brainstorm is untouchable and idealists that want brainstorm gone. There isnt any meaningful discussion because both sides aren't even approaching the issue in the same context.

I will be putting 'Brainstorm Realist' into my signature! :wink:

[Megadeus]

Being an idealist isn't bad though. Especially in a world where legacy is pretty much dead at this point. I know many people are just over with what the format has become and moved on. And that's fine. I'm at that point as well. The format has devolved into a hyper inbred mess and it's why I've quit the format.

[LOLWut]

Being an idealist isn't bad though. Especially in a world where legacy is pretty much dead at this point. I know many people are just over with what the format has become and moved on. And that's fine. I'm at that point as well. The format has devolved into a hyper inbred mess and it's why I've quit the format.

Tired: Quitting Legacy
Wired: Quitting Magic entirely

IMO, Legacy remains the best Magic format, but WotC has now succeeded in ruining the game as a whole

[H]

Being an idealist isn't bad though. Especially in a world where legacy is pretty much dead at this point. I know many people are just over with what the format has become and moved on. And that's fine. I'm at that point as well. The format has devolved into a hyper inbred mess and it's why I've quit the format.

I never said it was. Like I said, with regards to most things, I am far more an Idealist than a Realist.

However, I see value in a pragmatic take as well. The thing is, whole MTGO Legacy might devolve fairly quickly, our playground doesn't because people only own so many cards. Plus, most just play what they like, rather than whatever the most busted thing possible.

That being said, play what you like. If you don't like it, don't play it. The future of Legacy is only, likely, more constrictive, rather than expansive. Modern is well the same track. Even Pioneer will get there as well. That is the nature of non-rotating formats, I think. I don't think it is ideal and it isn't for everyone, but I still enjoy it.

[Fox]

Tired: Quitting Legacy
Wired: Quitting Magic entirely

IMO, Legacy remains the best Magic format, but WotC has now succeeded in ruining the game as a whole
This is largely a function of incorrect banning (DRS instead of Hymn, SDT instead of CB), and the continued printing of anti-strategy, cowardly cards (SFM, SCM, Strix/Coatl, cascaders). Add in overpowered PWs like W&6 and Oko and the larger ETB creep’d duders (Uro, Yorion), and you end up with piles that relentlessly jam - and that’s literally all they can do. Leave player skill at the door, you won’t be needing it - you’re just going to jam nonstop and you’ll get there or you won’t. Play or watch enough mirrors of that kind of magic and you’ll realize how toxic it is to watch legacy devolve into standard (i.e. who topdecks better: the gathering).

The mismanaged bans aside, they need to recognize that the cowardly ETB value duder (particularly at cmc 2) stuff is what’s really eroding legacy. You play that stuff without blue and [insert-Charbelcher’y combo] makes your deck unplayable, so everything gravitates towards xerox ETB duder. This how it happens, and it’s been going on a long time because there is no way to hate it out in a competitive way (hence the cowardly part of these cards) - effective hate does not exist.

The best way to un-ruin legacy is to print cards that unequivocally say “I’m going to make you suffer if you play ETB-style, and I’m not going to have to go too far out of my way to accomplish this.”

[Cire]

This is largely a function of incorrect banning (DRS instead of Hymn, SDT instead of CB), and the continued printing of anti-strategy, cowardly cards (SFM, SCM, Strix/Coatl, cascaders). Add in overpowered PWs like W&6 and Oko and the larger ETB creep’d duders (Uro, Yorion), and you end up with piles that relentlessly jam - and that’s literally all they can do. Leave player skill at the door, you won’t be needing it - you’re just going to jam nonstop and you’ll get there or you won’t. Play or watch enough mirrors of that kind of magic and you’ll realize how toxic it is to watch legacy devolve into standard (i.e. who topdecks better: the gathering).

The mismanaged bans aside, they need to recognize that the cowardly ETB value duder (particularly at cmc 2) stuff is what’s really eroding legacy. You play that stuff without blue and [insert-Charbelcher’y combo] makes your deck unplayable, so everything gravitates towards xerox ETB duder. This how it happens, and it’s been going on a long time because there is no way to hate it out in a competitive way (hence the cowardly part of these cards) - effective hate does not exist.

The best way to un-ruin legacy is to print cards that unequivocally say “I’m going to make you suffer if you play ETB-style, and I’m not going to have to go too far out of my way to accomplish this.”

This is a new take I haven't heard before. ETB have been around for a while and not sure even a card like the following is going to stop them.

Veil of Specific Hate G
Instant
Draw a card if a creature an opponent controls caused an abilities to trigger this turn. Counter all creature abilities and until your next turn creatures entering the battlefield don’t cause abilities to trigger.

[Fox]

This is a new take I haven't heard before. ETB have been around for a while and not sure even a card like the following is going to stop them.

It’s should make a lot of sense to legacy players; I’m pretty sure everyone who plays legacy has seen a problem where Astrolabe (or any future 1 drop trinket that cantrips without going to the yard - which they *will* print) becomes a 3/3 hasted cantrip elk. Ignore everything about the fixing, that’s a side issue - ETB duders are the problem and Oko is inflaming the situation [and he will be banned, b/c he’s the problem in this case; easily the main driver of Astrolabe use].

What’s the ban threshold? 55% is it? So uh yeah, Oko in Delver and 4c Loam and Lands and Maverick and then 4c AstroXerox. I’m seeing Oko being way closer to the 55% than Astro will ever be.

[pettdan]

I can see why Fox brings up Snapcaster and it has been discussed here before in that light, right? In a way, Snapcaster may have a similar effect on decks that Brainstorm has, in that it changes how many virtual copies of a card you're running during a game. Brainstorm is the more powerful one since it can also make cards go away from your deck, virtually, while Snapcaster Mage is powerful because it increases the virtual copies of the spells you need for a certain matchup. It is very powerful to be able to manipulate card availability in your deck. Playing 4 StP in Maverick feels very different from running 4 StP in a cantrip-heavy list with Snapcaster in it. Feels like running 4 vs 12 copies, or something silly like that, sorry if exaggerating! (not advocating a ban, btw, just wanted to comment on it)

Anyway, fwiw I have a more positive view on current Legacy (than above discussion). Sorry if I'm repeating myself, feel like I've said this a dozen times by now..

Legacy seems to be just two bans away from being pretty balanced and great. Some people think 3, some think 4, pretty similar views it seems. It seems like it's a crushing majority (wanting these couple of cards banned) but what do I know.. Having so many people presenting the same view, as I register it, and seeing how WotC have been acting in agreement with these views, pretty much, for years now with an accelerating pace, it seems likely they'll keep sharing the community sentiment and so it seems likely we'll have those bans within 6 months. Possibly delayed by new sets. I don't know why they delayed banning some of those problem cards this Monday, I imagine it's because banning Oko now would look very bad in that it would be banned in every format under Vintage (counting Commander somewhere above Vintage, perhaps, on a random scale such as deck-building space or card availability space). Or maybe it's rather because they didn't have actual recent data on these decks since Lurrus drowned out almost everything else. Yeah, that makes more sense.

[non-inflammable]

Can I play my Time Walk or Ancestral Recall?

way to move the goalposts, dude.



if we were to ban Brainstorm and unban all those other things, what makes you think that is a better format?

i like how you downplay "those other things" like they are unimportant. those other things were lynchpins in decks sacrificed for BS.
would "those other things" be banned if BS was not in the format? that's my question.

how many people would like to play with "those other things"? SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain


really, Mana Drain? Under what auspices am I to take this suggestion seriously? Mana Drain would fundamentally punish any deck that attempts to resolve a spell with a CMC over 1 when the opponent has UU open.

i throw-in mana drain since i like the card, but it is the weakest part of my suggestions. i see you agree, too.
how many drains are you gonna play? you can't put them back without brainstorm.
sit there with your UU and do nothing? go ahead, i'll play mishra's factory, wasteland, abrupt decay, cavern, even flash cards, whatever...



I could go on, but your proposed unban list looks nearly like a gish gallop to me
SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC & Probe are not "gish gallop". they were integral parts of decks that were sacrificed at the altar of BS.


"is banning Brainstorm a bigger blow to Legacy than fetchlands" though, because you do realize that Legacy, as such, is literally predicated on them.

i understand that and don't want fectchlands banned; the only problem is BS.


You want a differential Legacy card-pool? Make that case. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

i've been trying to make the case and ban just one card and bring back SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain


I already have a Legacy card pool at hand that I feel is worth playing/exploring and that is the current existent, legal card pool. And so does my local play-group.

"legal card pool" is just a construct that you are happy with. you are figuratively on the high ground and never have alter your stance since it suits you.
ask your play group if they would like to make decks with these cards: SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain and not BS

we eventually talk about diversity of decks, like it is THE gold standard in the legacy play experience. if legacy is too inbred (lurrus) it's a shit show.
what would the diversity of legacy look like without BS?

[Fox]

what would the diversity of legacy look like without BS?
Still mono-Oko. We’ve got bigger fish to fry than BS right now.

[Sella]

SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC & Probe are not "gish gallop". they were integral parts of decks that were sacrificed at the altar of BS.


Not entirely sure how any of these were "sacrificed at the altar of brainstorm" and I don't see how brainstorm leaving the format would allow them to come back.

[Seymour_Asses]

i've been trying to make the case and ban just one card and bring back SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

That's a hell of case to make. You want Wrenn & Six back? Treasure Cruise? Probe? Mana Drain?

You want Brainstorm gone to bring back this rogue's gallery of awful mistakes (possibly aside from Mind Twist)?

Seems like you're completely off your nut.

[ahg113]

If Brainstorm were a sorcery instead of an instant it wouldn't be nearly the problem the idealist make it out to be.

Brainstorm has hit every metric MTG has used to justify banning a card, yet it persist.

[Wrath of Pie]

Seems like you're completely off your nut.

I never thought I would say this, but he makes me miss Random_Miser and the legacy that is Invincible Counter-Troll.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Still mono-Oko. We’ve got bigger fish to fry than BS right now.
Putting no-regrets value on threats starting at 2cc has changed decks a lot.

As for Brainstorm (not quoting Fox, this is just often repeated):
“If you ban Brainstorm, people will simply play the next best thing.”
Yup, exactly. I’ve long been interested to find out what that is.

[Megadeus]

Putting no-regrets value on threats starting at 2cc has changed decks a lot.

As for Brainstorm (not quoting Fox, this is just often repeated):
“If you ban Brainstorm, people will simply play the next best thing.”
Yup, exactly. I’ve long been interested to find out what that is.
I mean let's be real it's ponder and preordain, but those 2 as options are definitely a step down in terms of power more in line (and yet probably still better) with the rest of the format

[Mr. Safety]

how many people would like to play with "those other things"? SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

They can play those things: in Vintage, Modern, Pioneer, and EDH. One fundamental argument realists have stuck to is the idea of format identity. So follow the yellow brick road: ban Brainstorm in Legacy, which means its on the same power level as Ancestral Recall because both would be banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage. You make an (indirect) argument with banning Brainstorm that it is closer to the equivalent of Ancestral Recall than the equivalent of Ponder. H didn't move the goal posts at all, he just followed through.



i've been trying to make the case and ban just one card and bring back SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

SDT - banned for it's interaction with Counterbalance, Terminus, and causing excessively long tournaments. Brainstorm was redundancy, but not the problem.

Dig Through Time - banned for being too powerful in enabling blue-based combo decks and powering up Miracles. Paying 2 mana to draw the best 2 cards in your top 7, functionally, is too good for most formats that fill graveyards too fast. How does Brainstorm make this more inherently busted? It was also banned in Modern, which also has fetchlands but no Brainstorms. I would argue fetchlands were to blame.

Deathrite Shaman - banned for not only being too powerful but also homogenizing the format too much. It was fairly used in non-blue mid-range decks but those decks didn't have blue filtering and free countermagic. This card could potentially be linked to Brainstorm based on the homogenization argument. I would, at first thought, probably lean towards banning Brainstorm as well but not unban DRS. He's not called the 1-mana PW for nothing, it's just that good of a card.

Underworld Breach - the real culprit for breaking Breach was Lion's Eye Diamond. Yes Brainstorm helped that deck to be consistent, just like with Show and Tell and Storm. The 'free' replays from Breach broke a fundamental rule of magic, all the while being resilient to the more common ways of hating graveyards.

W&6 - banned for synergies with Wasteland and consolidating blue decks into a single best variant with RUG delver. It reduced format diversity rather than expanding it, which is an argument that goes along with many of the banned cards.

Gitaxian Probe - free information that adds mana with the delve mechanic. More than any other reason, it was a free and powerful effect that anybody could take advantage of. Mental Misstep was also free and countered a large share of the formats key spells.

Those are the cards supposedly 'sacrificed on the alter of Brainstorm'. I'm not convinced, I can point to other reasons for their banning. Did Brainstorm contribute to the consistency with which people had access to those cards? For sure. Just like it contributes to the consistency of finding Show and Tell. Are you arguing that those cards are equivalent to Show and Tell?

The other cards mentioned (Mind Twist and Mana Drain) I really can't make any meaningful statement about. I can't think of a real-world example of them existing in a 4-Brainstorm format.

Or you can ignore everything I just wrote. The 'tl:dr':


Not entirely sure how any of these were "sacrificed at the altar of brainstorm" and I don't see how brainstorm leaving the format would allow them to come back.

[H]

way to move the goalposts, dude.

I didn't look to move the goalposts, I am pointing out that I can pull cards out of a binder too. I said, quite explicitly, that "play your cards" means "play the cards that are legal." Should I make a list of all the cards I own that aren't legal in Legacy? What good does that do?


i like how you downplay "those other things" like they are unimportant. those other things were lynchpins in decks sacrificed for BS.
would "those other things" be banned if BS was not in the format? that's my question.

how many people would like to play with "those other things"? SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

Once again, I and numerous other people have pointed out how spurious your assertion that all those cards were banned because of Brainstorm. You simply choose to not listen or respond to any of them, so I am not going to go over it again. Simply put, I don't agree with your assertions, or your conclusions.


i throw-in mana drain since i like the card, but it is the weakest part of my suggestions. i see you agree, too.
how many drains are you gonna play? you can't put them back without brainstorm.
sit there with your UU and do nothing? go ahead, i'll play mishra's factory, wasteland, abrupt decay, cavern, even flash cards, whatever...

The case is faulty, because it presupposes that every deck would play it. Simply put, not every card that is banned would see overwhelming amounts of play. That is beside the point. Mana Drain is a stupidly powerful card, would only serve to make the format both more Blue and then more Red, if it were legal. There simply is no need.


SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC & Probe are not "gish gallop". they were integral parts of decks that were sacrificed at the altar of BS.

Once again, your assertion of this as a "fact" is dubious and has been refuted a number of times, by a number of people. You just keep ignoring it.


i understand that and don't want fectchlands banned; the only problem is BS.

Once again, you ignore the fact that without fetchlands, Brainstorm is a pretty fair card. So, again, you claim to know that Brainstorm is the only "problem" but you fail to actually prove this. In fact, all the "evidence" you provide points more directly at fetchlands as the problem. But, your ideology, that Brainstorm is the arch-enemy of Legacy, blinds you to this. Not to mention, you give a sort of exemption to fetchlands, on a count of what? Why does this not extend to Brainstorm?


i've been trying to make the case and ban just one card and bring back SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

And have you noticed that this case has not been furnished with even a single plausible piece of evidence for why this could or should be done? Besides you bare assertion that is is a fact, again, refuted numerous times by numerous people, in numerous ways.


"legal card pool" is just a construct that you are happy with. you are figuratively on the high ground and never have alter your stance since it suits you.
ask your play group if they would like to make decks with these cards: SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain and not BS

we eventually talk about diversity of decks, like it is THE gold standard in the legacy play experience. if legacy is too inbred (lurrus) it's a shit show.
what would the diversity of legacy look like without BS?

Funny, but no, actually I would like to see numerous changes to the "legal card pool." Personally, I think the Deathrite ban was stupid, Earthcraft and Mind Twist (probably Frantic Search as well) are likely fine to tentatively unban.

Ah, but now we are down the the real crux, the fabled "diversity." What you surmise is that Brainstorm quashes more Diversity than it enables. What evidence do you have of this? Once again, I do have the "high ground" here, because Brainstorm is legal and has been demonstrated that it will likely stay so. That means, yes, you have the burden of proof, not me.

If you think that you can just make the rational argument that Brainstorm is more anti-diversity, than pro-diversity, I can do the same in reverse. I have no idea what you think the notional diversity that suddenly gets fostered by banning Brainstorm is, but I am high skeptical it would come to be. You are relying on your, again, suspect (at minimum) notion that Brainstorm is what made your list of cards bannable. Again, that is likely not the case and you show no evidence, aside, again, your bare assertion of this as a fact.

But, still, you go on, as if your fabled diversity ends is served necessarily by a Brainstorm ban. Again, no evidence provided. Because, it seems, to you, no Brainstorm just automatically mean diverse, I guess. I see no other way in which you offer anything like evidence of this. So, once again, what proof do you have of this? I can only imagine that you simply place all Brainstorm decks in one "category" for this purpose, then all other decks opposed to that. So, no Brainstorm, all of a sudden, anything goes?

No one is going to win a Legacy event with River Boas any more. That ship sailed, long, long ago. Minus Brainstorm, there isn't a utopian ideal diversity just over the horizon, in fact, it is plausible that minus Brainstorm, "diversity" suffers far more so, in light of Blue decks having less flexibility and so would centralize over the whatever emerges as optimal builds. Also, the notion that somehow, there are all sort of "Legacy playables" lurking just outside the Brainstorm-sphere, just waiting to be competitive, again, has nothing like proof to back it.

But I think that reveals what your position likely is. What you really are making a case of is, "I am tired of Brainstorm, so anything besides Brainstorm is diversity." But I don't buy that. There will always be a next best thing that will quash options, that will suppress other things, that is the nature of a non-rotating format. See, again, I can't help but notice your appeal to a notional utopian ideal Legacy, where fabled diversity (whatever that is) rules the day. Again, actual Legacy is nothing like that, and even your ideal Legacy, were we to implement all your ideas, would likely move in that exact same way.

So no, I don't buy your assertion that your biased take is a matter of facts. I don't buy your assertion that "diversity" is just a ban away. You have tried to make a case, but, as far as I can tell, you have only made bare assertions with nothing to back them but an appeal to your personal preferences.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

One fundamental argument realists have stuck to is the idea of format identity.

So many words when you could have stopped here: A format's identity is an idealistic argument. You are saying "this is how the ideal Legacy looks like" and then pretending your a realist. Man do I love banned list chat.

[Sella]

While I do agree with everything H typed I just gotta say please give those poor commas a break!

[H]

So many words when you could have stopped here: A format's identity is an idealistic argument. You are saying "this is how the ideal Legacy looks like" and then pretending your a realist. Man do I love banned list chat.

I think this is a fairly disingenuous reading of what he meant though.

The "Realist" position here is the pragmatic one. The one that sees what cards are legal and works with them to play the game.

The "Idealist" position here is the idealistic one. The one that does not accept what cards are legal, won't play because the game is not up the their standards.

This isn't an actual Realism vs. Idealism debate, in the more technical philosophical operationalized terms. Because Legacy is no more "real" by that metric than money. If we could debate Moral Realism, we certainly could debate if Legacy is Real, or constructed.

That is hardly the point at hand though.

I certainly am not telling people who are idealistic to not be. I'm not telling anyone that they should be pragmatic. In fact, often, pragmatism is pretty gross. But, here, in this case, I see the value. I think that is what Mr. Safety is getting at, that the pragmatic view has value, because you get to play the game. If you don't want to, then don't.

The real point, I think, is that almost everyone is something of an Idealist. But, here, the case is being made that an extreme, fevenent idealism simply does not serve the practical aim of actually playing the game. We are all idealists in some way, but we can also just enjoy things for what they are, knowing that different doesn't always mean better.

[H]

While I do agree with everything H typed I just gotta say please give those poor commas a break!

Hey, give me a break, I'm stupid and I type like it too! :cool:

[Mr. Safety]

So many words when you could have stopped here: A format's identity is an idealistic argument. You are saying "this is how the ideal Legacy looks like" and then pretending your a realist. Man do I love banned list chat.

I completely disagree. A format's identity is shaped by what's legal, not what 'ought' to be legal. It's not an idealistic argument at all. I have made no claims on how Legacy 'ought' to look like, only what it 'is', and challenging others who are making 'ought' arguments.

[Mr. Safety]

I certainly am not telling people who are idealistic to not be. I'm not telling anyone that they should be pragmatic. In fact, often, pragmatism is pretty gross. But, here, in this case, I see the value. I think that is what Mr. Safety is getting at, that the pragmatic view has value, because you get to play the game. If you don't want to, then don't.

The real point, I think, is that almost everyone is something of an Idealist. But, here, the case is being made that an extreme, fevenent idealism simply does not serve the practical aim of actually playing the game. We are all idealists in some way, but we can also just enjoy things for what they are, knowing that different doesn't always mean better.

This is exactly what I meant to say. Thanks for clarifying.

EDIT: I could dream all day of what a Brainstorm-less format could be, or I could play the game in a somewhat less desirable state (if that were how I felt) with Brainstorm. I choose the latter. I'm not saying you have to, far from it.

If you dare, follow this link:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=oTSJqeYg&id=4609DEE93004A2E287AA1106988EDE44D95A8F92&thid=OIP.oTSJqeYgdu_T63SeMleAfwHaFK&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.beyonddevic.es%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2014%2f06%2fcalvin_and_hobbes-sandwich.png&exph=418&expw=600&q=calvin+and+hobbes+i+got+my+wish&simid=608003228111146326&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0

[Ronald Deuce]

Unrelated question: Is there a good reason Wizards doesn't use "suspensions" or temporary bans aside from the fluctuations they would produce in card pricing?

[H]

Unrelated question: Is there a good reason Wizards doesn't use "suspensions" or temporary bans aside from the fluctuations they would produce in card pricing?

I don't think there is a particularly good reason. They've actually done it in Arena, IIRC for Historic. But maybe the answer is just a lack of wanting to constantly reevaluate things?

[non-inflammable]

If Brainstorm were a sorcery instead of an instant it wouldn't be nearly the problem the idealist make it out to be.

Brainstorm has hit every metric MTG has used to justify banning a card, yet it persist.

i would be 100% behind a sorcery errata...

remember before the stack, there was the batch, interrupts and mana sources?

https://i.imgur.com/7vhsk4q.jpg

[Michael Keller]

i would be 100% behind a sorcery errata...

remember before the stack, there was the batch, interrupts and mana sources?

https://i.imgur.com/7vhsk4q.jpg

"As a fast-effect..." lol The good old days.

[Fox]

Was pretty funny commentary from an Eternal Weekend where a guy tries to use Mystical Tutor to find a Tolarian b/c he didn’t know Mana Source was a card type. It’s important to continue to call things by their true names: Mono/Poly/Continuous Artifact, Interrupt/Mana Source, and local/global enchantment. These terms should never have gone away imo, they made perfect sense.

[ahg113]

Was pretty funny commentary from an Eternal Weekend where a guy tries to use Mystical Tutor to find a Tolarian b/c he didn’t know Mana Source was a card type. It’s important to continue to call things by their true names: Mono/Poly/Continuous Artifact, Interrupt/Mana Source, and local/global enchantment. These terms should never have gone away imo, they made perfect sense.

During my college years I became a super duper casual player. Then got out of the game until about Mirrodin Besieged etc. Fast forward to Tumble Magnet and I tap someone's whatever, thinking I was going to turn it off, and low & behold, a judge call later, that's not a thing anymore. (All those damn years of Icy Manipulator wrecking havoc are a thing of the past.) I was full of the disappoint. Mogg Fanatic, Yavimaya Elder, how I miss your great deal damage stack sac effects for profit.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Sorry for making this long. I wanted to sum up thoughts. I promise I tried to make it readable.

It’s not possible to mathematically prove that anything ought to be banned, and it’s not possible to define what Legacy ought to be in a way that’s universally agreed on. Putting that burden of proof on someone, in this context, is asking them to go jump in a lake.

To me it’s as plain as day that Brainstorm was better off banned seven to ten years ago, and I’ll make my case. When you’re reading it, please understand that all I’ve got — all WotC has ever had — is common sense and rough heuristics, not formal logic.

I’ll start with Vintage, the format whose mission is to encompass all of Magic. Even the most unbalanced cards, mostly early design mistakes, are legal to play (lol at Lurrus). There’s a trade-off: Allowing these unbalanced cards to remain legal, even if they’re restricted to one copy per deck, permanently focuses the format on these early design mistakes, since WotC intends to never again print cards unbalanced enough to compete with them. Vintage will forever be focused on blue decks and (as long as Workshop and Bazaar are unrestricted) artifact decks and graveyard decks. The cost of being able to play with every card is that if a player wants to have a shot at winning with any other kind of deck, Vintage is not for them.

Legacy was split off from Vintage. Its mission is to be very similar to Vintage in this one respect: it encompasses 99.99% of Magic. But it also has a mission to escape the sway of the unbalanced cards that define Vintage. The 0.01% chunk that’s missing from Legacy is the unbalanced cards, which are banned, not restricted, as a sacrifice for the sake of format diversity. Legacy is designed to avoid the fate of being permanently defined by a narrow bunch of unbalanced cards.

Some strategies will always rise to the top. There will be winners and losers. The promise of Legacy is not that you can play just absolutely anything and expect to win.

The promise of Legacy is that if you compare it to Vintage, you should be able to say, “This Legacy thing is a lot more diverse at the most competitive level.” (The noncompetitive levels don’t matter: You can run anything in any format if you don’t mind getting crushed.)

Legacy, to its credit, has fulfilled a great deal of its promise. I could rattle off more strategies with a fighting chance of winning a Legacy tournament than I could for Vintage. But “a fighting chance” is a nice way of saying “not a good chance.” While Legacy far outstrips Vintage in terms of strategies with a fighting chance, it doesn’t do much better in terms of strategies with a good chance.

Vintage has blue (a handful of substrategies with a great deal of overlap), Workshop, and Dredge stuff (??). Legacy has blue (a handful of substrategies with a great deal of overlap), Chalice (??), Depths (??), and Vial stuff (????). The difference between blue and the next best thing is actually bigger in Legacy than in Vintage (where Workshop is sometimes on equal footing with blue).

You may not like me grouping “blue” together like this, and you’d be right that there are some big differences within “blue.” But from a years-long perspective, the same gang of troublemakers are at it again and again. It’s fair to say “blue” is always the best Legacy archetype in a way that it would be unfair to say that “red” is an archetype encompassing Mono-Red Prison and Mono-Red Burn and Mono-Red Goblins. Those decks are really different.

So, Legacy largely but incompletely delivers on its promise. It’s not hard to spot the ringleader card in the archetype that’s always the best. It’s not hard to see that the ringleader card is bannable.

Here are some typical criteria for a bannable card:
It’s ubiquitous at the highest level of competition.
It’s cheap to cast.
It greatly reduces variance.
The best way to counter it is to use it and then tune your deck to face other decks using it.
It doesn’t have a meaningful deckbuilding cost.
We have enough observations to be sure of what we’re seeing.

Brainstorm also partially meets this criterion:
Provides card advantage (not quite, but it’s the ultimate virtual card advantage)

It’s often repeated that Brainstorm is bannable by every metric. I grant that the card requires decision making, but so do Demonic Tutor and Survival of the Fittest and really any other card, if you think hard enough about the correct play.

If you just like playing Brainstorm and would be sad if it were banned, I have no argument. I’m not here to tell you what you ought to like.

Tl;dr ban Brainstorm to upgrade the number of decks with not just a fighting chance, but a good chance, in accordance with the point of Legacy. If it doesn’t work, just unban it again. And do this seven to ten years ago.

[Wrath of Pie]

Interestingly enough, if Brainstorm were banned seven to ten years ago, that probably means that Ponder and Preordain never get printed and that Serum Visions likely would be banned in Modern.

EDIT: Ponder still gets printed, but Preordain possibly not.

[ahg113]

Sorry for making this long. I wanted to sum up thoughts. I promise I tried to make it readable.

tl, dr

Tl;dr ban Brainstorm to upgrade the number of decks with not just a fighting chance, but a good chance, in accordance with the point of Legacy. If it doesn’t work, just unban it again. And do this seven to ten years ago.

I <3 this post.

[H]

Tl;dr ban Brainstorm to upgrade the number of decks with not just a fighting chance, but a good chance, in accordance with the point of Legacy. If it doesn’t work, just unban it again. And do this seven to ten years ago.

The question though is, even if I agree with you (and I generally do) the window of 7-10 years ago is well and gone now. So, while your post shows good hindsight, the issue lies in the present, looking to the future. The inaction is as defining as the action taken by Wizards, if not more so.

So, what do we do now? Frankly, I think Legacy just is 4x Brainstorm + Fetches now. That isn't for everyone and I don't claim that everyone should like it. If it is not for you, then it just isn't. At this point though, it is almost like playing Vintage and hating Moxes. I mean, sure, you could. You could even demand they be banned and have a valid case. Except it just isn't going to happen.

[Cire]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-super-qualifier-2020-05-22#griselpuff_st_place

Post ban challenge

Companion count:

Yorion: 8
Gyruda: 3
Jegantha: 2

[Purple Blood]

Honest question: if they banned Brainstorm would the meta change all that much?

Four Brainstorms becomes four Preordains. The decks running Brainstorm will lose a few % points to the non Brainstorm decks. However, being that most decks are Brainstorm decks, overall you will see no major change to the win rates and therefore likely no shift in the meta.

Maybe I'm underestimating the downgrade of Brainstorm to Preordain?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Honest question: if they banned Brainstorm would the meta change all that much?

Four Brainstorms becomes four Preordains. The decks running Brainstorm will lose a few % points to the non Brainstorm decks. However, being that most decks are Brainstorm decks, overall you will see no major change to the win rates and therefore likely no shift in the meta.

Maybe I'm underestimating the downgrade of Brainstorm to Preordain?

Then ban ponder too.

[non-inflammable]

You could even demand they (moxes) be banned and have a valid case.

conflate much? what ONE card in vintage could be a comparison to BS?

I don't play vintage anymore, but when I did (type1), I hated mirror universe (mana burn during your untap phase, really!?!)
It's apples to oranges since mirror universe just ended the game but BS just incentivizes blue stew in legacy.

[Purple Blood]

Then ban ponder too.

Or just play Modern if that's the format you want.

[jmlima]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-super-qualifier-2020-05-22#griselpuff_st_place

Post ban challenge

Companion count:

Yorion: 8
Gyruda: 3
Jegantha: 2

Also, Uro and Oko present in 50% of the decks. Delver, that terrible formidable weapon reduced to 9% of the decks...

[Barook]

Yorion is already pretty stupid as it is by just jamming it into value decks. People haven't even really started trying to break, e.g. with Restoration Angel/Felidar Guardian chains for maximum snowballing.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Or just play Modern if that's the format you want.

If you want to just play the cards you like with no sense of balance, and a solved meta I recommend your kitchen table.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Honest question: if they banned Brainstorm would the meta change all that much?

Four Brainstorms becomes four Preordains. The decks running Brainstorm will lose a few % points to the non Brainstorm decks. However, being that most decks are Brainstorm decks, overall you will see no major change to the win rates and therefore likely no shift in the meta.

Maybe I'm underestimating the downgrade of Brainstorm to Preordain?

Yes and no. Ponder and Preordain are powerful, yet completely fair effects.
Banning Brainstorm would hurt blue combo decks the most.
Blue value decks would still have an edge over combo, but the drop of blue combo may also decrease their share in the metagame.
More importantly, banning Brainstorm would make Thoughtseize relevant again, and hence the black value decks.
Most importantly, banning Brainstorm may get us back other banned cards.

i like how you downplay "those other things" like they are unimportant. those other things were lynchpins in decks sacrificed for BS.
would "those other things" be banned if BS was not in the format? that's my question.

how many people would like to play with "those other things"? SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain
Not necessarily agreeing with all the listed cards, I second the sentiment of the quote. I play Legacy because I enjoy playing with all the powerful effects. I enjoy a lot playing with Brainstorm, but I would enjoy playing with many other cards when Brainstorm is axed.


I think there is a general misunderstanding of the 'debate' that dominates this thread. The discussion is mostly between a group of realists that see that brainstorm is untouchable and idealists that want brainstorm gone. There isnt any meaningful discussion because both sides aren't even approaching the issue in the same context.
Realists and idealists are a nice separation. I would describe my idealism as minimalism, how to keep Legacy a fun format with the shortest ban list.

[ahg113]

conflate much? what ONE card in vintage could be a comparison to BS?

I don't play vintage anymore, but when I did (type1), I hated mirror universe (mana burn during your untap phase, really!?!)
It's apples to oranges since mirror universe just ended the game but BS just incentivizes blue stew in legacy.

I miss the secret tech of Eladamri's Vineyard being a wincon, mana burn, i miss thee.

[Wrath of Pie]

Yes and no. Ponder and Preordain are powerful, yet completely fair effects.
Are you unfamiliar with the Turbo Xerox concept? Ponder and Preordain aren't exactly fair effects, after all both are banned in Modern and one is restricted in Vintage (and Preordain is arguably worthy of restriction depending on who you ask).

[pettdan]

I miss the secret tech of Eldamri's Vineyard being a wincon, mana burn, i miss thee.

What a gem it was; carpet of flowers and sulfuric vortex all in one. Well, carpet for you and vortex for opponent.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Are you unfamiliar with the Turbo Xerox concept? Ponder and Preordain aren't exactly fair effects, after all both are banned in Modern and one is restricted in Vintage (and Preordain is arguably worthy of restriction depending on who you ask).

I feast on those decks by Chalice of the Void. It is a lot closer with Brainstorm to dig for Counterspells turn1 and shuffling away dead cards. Xerox would be a healthy and fair deck once their unfair card is banned, I would rather give them Gitaxian Probe in return.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I feast on those decks by Chalice of the Void. It is a lot closer with Brainstorm to dig for Counterspells turn1 and shuffling away dead cards. Xerox would be a healthy and fair deck once their unfair card is banned, I would rather give them Gitaxian Probe in return.There's no need for chalice to remain legal if brainstorm is banned. It is a format corrector that is too powerful with brainstorm benched.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ahg113]

There's no need for chalice to remain legal if brainstorm is banned. It is a format corrector that is too powerful with brainstorm benched.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Disagree. While many people are butt hurt about chalice on 1, it is modal and scales down or up, so it's reach is beyond 1-card. That and the fact it is symetrical, and easily answerable (shattering spree, a.decay) means it is a fine card. It doesn't reach the saturation points that other bannable cards have met either. Requiring specific consideration for deck design is also a merit plus for chalice.

[Purple Blood]

If you want to just play the cards you like with no sense of balance, and a solved meta I recommend your kitchen table.

Why would you assume the format would become balanced by banning the two best cantrips? For example, what happens if after that non-blue Wasteland, Chalice, or Depths decks are dominating the format? Then some of those get banned. Maybe after that Reanimator becomes too strong now that the whole rest of the format is weaker so they ban Griselbrand. (Not saying this is exactly how it would go but I hope you get the point that there is no end to this and that without as many FoW decks policing the format it will devolve into a shit fest like post-Twin Modern.) Go on down this road far enough and you see why I brought up Modern. We've seen how that plays out.

It's already been beaten to death but the reality is Brainstorm (and fetches) are part of the format. Just like in Vintage Bazaar and Shops are part of the format which has caused other cards to get restricted which wouldn't need to be the case if they were restricted. I only bring this up to say, you can balance a format even with a broken card remaining unbanned. There's more than one banlist iteration that would achieve format balance. Does it make it a bit more difficult and cumbersome to maintain a banlist when you have sacred cows? Sure. Does it make it impossible? No.

One thing I have my eye on is Historic. This is a first of its kind whitelist format insofar as they are selectively printing in cards over time. In theory, a whitelist format, if properly cultivated over time, can create the most diverse and well-balanced meta. Instead of banning cards, they can print in answers. H talks about how metas are naturally restrictive which I agree with completely. A whitelist format can avoid that problem. There's decades worth of already established archetypes. All they have to do is slowly print them into the format and then at some point you get a format where every conceivable strategy is playable and where none of the most egregious design mistakes see the light of day. At least in theory.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Disagree. While many people are butt hurt about chalice on 1, it is modal and scales down or up, so it's reach is beyond 1-card. That and the fact it is symetrical, and easily answerable (shattering spree, a.decay) means it is a fine card. It doesn't reach the saturation points that other bannable cards have met either. Requiring specific consideration for deck design is also a merit plus for chalice.

Thanks for disagreeing.

I am definitely not "butthurt" about Chalice. I love stax, was my first legacy deck that wasn't a port-over from standard.

The "specific consideration" for deck design includes mainly thinking of ways to play it on turn one for one counter, and only consider 0, 1, and (sometimes) 2 counters to really be reasonable Chalice payments - otherwise it steps on its own strategem. This is where the argument for it being symmetrical really falls apart. It is stated symmetrically, but the end result is not truly symmetrical, inherently due to those "specific considerations" that started the conversation.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ahg113]

Thanks for disagreeing.

I am definitely not "butthurt" about Chalice. I love stax, was my first legacy deck that wasn't a port-over from standard.

The "specific consideration" for deck design includes mainly thinking of ways to play it on turn one for one counter, and only consider 0, 1, and (sometimes) 2 counters to really be reasonable Chalice payments - otherwise it steps on its own strategem. This is where the argument for it being symmetrical really falls apart. It is stated symmetrically, but the end result is not truly symmetrical, inherently due to those "specific considerations" that started the conversation.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

You're welcome, and not obviously not many people.

Unless the chalice player is playing uncounterable cards, or using things like Cavern of Souls or Vexing Shusher it is symetrical, because the player is eschewing those spells at those cmc. Counter Balance is an unsymetrical card, regardless of deck construction. That's the card that should be/have been banned. But we all know that.

Stax, a specific and niche deck that plays to a certain goal with hyper focused deck construction, kinda the antithesis of xerox. More of that would be welcome, and a suitable place for chalice. Something that's obviously not a good stuff pile + cantrips.

[jmlima]

When I read the discussion in this thread I cannot help to have the feeling that ultimately, the issue is with the decision making of the people leading it. So , when I see a discussion re format vision, etc it reminds those purely theoretical art discussions in school. I mean, these guys that design this game have a single job, good limited and standard. They have designed a standard that has 4 banned cards and that is running a deck at 31.82% of the meta, barely two weeks after release. We may all have visions of what legacy should be, but the custodians of it cannot even do their job properly, let alone worry about other things...

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/standard#online

Now, lets discuss minimalism.

[Grizzlenasty]

Brainstorm is fine, fetches are fine. My thesis: People that are crying for a ban of either of those two, are simply bored of always having to play (against) the same stuff. Go play draft. Get yourself a decent kitchentable and invite over some friends. This will heal your tortured soul. Leave us cool kids alone!

[Seymour_Asses]

Yeah, Legacy is the cool kids format! Nerds and Dweebs and Doofuses get lost!

[tsabo_tavoc]

There's no need for chalice to remain legal if brainstorm is banned. It is a format corrector that is too powerful with brainstorm benched.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Chalice decks are kept in check by Wasteland. Not a coincidence most succesful Chalice decks in Legacy use Moon effects.
Chalice is one of the easiest card to play around: Diversify the curve. With ever more maindeckable hates Kolaghan's Command, Abrade, and now hates with Awesome Brazen Borrower, Chalice becomes ever safer. In the only format that limits Chalice, it is a 0-mana card and boosted by 4 Mishra's Workshop!

[non-inflammable]

Yeah, Legacy is the cool kids format! Nerds and Dweebs and Doofuses get lost!

and there it is; elitism. "if you don't play BS then you're not good enough"
BS is a crutch that enables blue stew piles and you can't even imagine playing a non-BS deck.
do you make fun of the yugioh players, too?

i've made legacy decks for our saturday night legacy events for about 10 years. i bring anywhere from 4-6 decks to loan out and even do requests.
i'll make any deck as long as you come and play.
new (usually standard & EDH) players will come and ask me how to get started in legacy.
but before i can tell them about buying staples like a dual land or a force of will, they usually say something like, "I've got my 4 brainstorms so i want to play legacy"
i usually just chuckle to myself and then show them all the other decks they could be playing...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Brainstorm is fine, fetches are fine. My thesis: People that are crying for a ban of either of those two, are simply bored of always having to play (against) the same stuff. Go play draft. Get yourself a decent kitchentable and invite over some friends. This will heal your tortured soul. Leave us cool kids alone!
You should flesh out your thesis more: why are people tired of it? I know defending a thesis is boring stuff for boring people but you should really explore that more. I'd start at meta share it some such metric.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

and there it is; elitism. "if you don't play BS then you're not good enough"
BS is a crutch that enables blue stew piles and you can't even imagine playing a non-BS deck.
do you make fun of the yugioh players, too?

i've made legacy decks for our saturday night legacy events for about 10 years. i bring anywhere from 4-6 decks to loan out and even do requests.
i'll make any deck as long as you come and play.
new (usually standard & EDH) players will come and ask me how to get started in legacy.
but before i can tell them about buying staples like a dual land or a force of will, they usually say something like, "I've got my 4 brainstorms so i want to play legacy"
i usually just chuckle to myself and then show them all the other decks they could be playing...

Who needs brainstorm in this meta where I control all the decks at this casual event? Jeeze, crutch mutch!

[Grizzlenasty]

and there it is; elitism. "if you don't play BS then you're not good enough"
BS is a crutch that enables blue stew piles and you can't even imagine playing a non-BS deck.

If you think you depend on Brainstorm you're probably not good enough I'd say. In ~ 2013 or 14 I made second place in a small 23 player tournament with a mono blue Ninjastill list. No Brainstorms, no fetches and substituting Forces with Foils... I will never forget the Ant players reddening face when I stifled of his sec turn kill with a 2 cent card. He even duressed me before, but simply didn't acknowledge that card. It was the round that put me in the finals. The finals I lost to a friend of mine that I deemed as the best magic player in town back then.
What I want to say is: It's possible to do good without brainstorm. Even in blue. I actually believe there are blue strategies that would be better off neglecting brainstorms.
In the end you're adding air to your deck to gain consistency. But still I wouldn't want to live in a world without Brainstorm/fetch interaction - It's just too fun.




do you make fun of the yugioh players, too?

Though I believe in the heart of the cards, how can you possibly not make fun of YuGiOh players?!
They are all greasy nerds! :tongue:



but before i can tell them about buying staples like a dual land or a force of will, they usually say something like, "I've got my 4 brainstorms so i want to play legacy"
i usually just chuckle to myself and then show them all the other decks they could be playing...

Give them time.. they just don't know any better yet.


You should flesh out your thesis more: why are people tired of it? I know defending a thesis is boring stuff for boring people but you should really explore that more. I'd start at meta share it some such metric.

Yes I actually would be bored to defend this with an essay of mine. I keep it short and simple.
I like playing with brainstorm and I like playing without.
When I include it to my list, I'm happy about the consistency it adds and enjoy a lot of the shenanigans it does - like grabbing a batterskull and directly putting it back to fetch it out again a turn later. Boy do I enjoy uw blade.
But when I, for example, dust of my jund deck, I'm happy for every single cantrip in my opponents deck. One more card that's basically a blank against my deck. And said "Yeah, keep adding air to your deck" feeling, I get when playing with Jund, Lands, Pox , DnT, Maverick, Loam, Goblins, Elves, MUD and probably will get it too, when I have finished my mono red prison.
Still I'm glad for every single cantrip in my deck, when facing degenerate combo stuff.
I can't give you numbers or statistics to prove why I think Brainstorm is fine. I simply think this way. I don't even care if it might be broken or what. I just want it to stay.

Edit: Came back here a day later to erase some typos and to find I got carried away and didn't really answer your question. But how could I answer it at all. I can't give you data that shows why I think, people are just bored of playing against Brainstorm instead of it actually being broken and needing to be banned.
I just don't see it being broken. It's hella strong and you need good reasons not to play it. We don't need to discuss that. It's played a lot.. 55% of decks jam it I think. But FoW meets that criteria aswell. Nobody complains about that as far as i know. So it being played alot alone is not a sign of it being too powerful. It's a subtle little helper that glues a lot of decks together, thus enabling designspace and therefore being favored while deckbuilding.
But simply piling up 4xBS,4xPonder and 7-9 fetches does not make a good deck on it's own. Proof of that lies in a Deckbox next to me. I'm desperately trying to port my 2010 Pro Bant deck into 2020 meta.. all the Brainstorms in the world won't make that happen.

And why I think people are just bored of playing against BS? I see it in their faces and hear it in their words. Until they figure out it's not Brainstorm they've lost against. They've most of the times lost because of their poor plays or simply because of bad draws. Which you can have aswell even though you include BS. Never seen a SnT player spinning his wheels for 4 turns even though he's cantripping the living shit out of his deck?

Edit 2: Oh and between grindier decks in general, WAR PWs and london mulligan, Brainstorm has already been nerfed considerably anyways.

[Seymour_Asses]

and there it is; elitism. "if you don't play BS then you're not good enough"
BS is a crutch that enables blue stew piles and you can't even imagine playing a non-BS deck.
do you make fun of the yugioh players, too?

Um, what? I can't tell if you're serious. I don't play Brainstorm and nothing about my post had anything to do with it.

Also of course I make fun of YuGiOh players, it's a well known fact that they are indeed greasy nerds.

[Lord Seth]

If you think you depend on Brainstorm you're probably not good enough I'd say. In ~ 2013 or 14 I made second place in a small 23 player tournament with a mono blue Ninjastill list. No Brainstorms, no fetches and substituting Forces with Foils... I will never forget the Ant players reddening face when I stifled of his sec turn kill with a 2 cent card. He even duressed me before, but simply didn't acknowledge that card. It was the round that put me in the finals. The finals I lost to a friend of mine that I deemed as the best magic player in town back then.
What I want to say is: It's possible to do good without brainstorm. Even in blue. I actually believe there are blue strategies that would be better off neglecting brainstorms.

I can't say that getting 2nd place in a 23-person tournament 6 years ago really proves much in regards to Brainstorm.

Or was that supposed to be a joke?

[Grizzlenasty]

Nah, neither was it a joke nor does it prove much.
It just showcases it's not impossible to do good without Brainstorm under the right circumstances and though the comment I was replying to wasn't directed at me, I can absolutely imagine playing without it.
I shared that anecdote to make it clear that I'm not defending Brainstorm because I'm a Delver/4c only player.
Though I own a playset for the sake of completion, I have never ever flipped a delver in my life.

I don't even think I need to proof anything.
I simply don't believe that Brainstorm is broken in a format where pretty consistent turn one kills without the help of Brainstorm are possible and common.
Br reanimator, Belcher, Oops all spells, Dredge..
Turn two 20/20s and all that stuff..
Seriously.. brainstorm might be a format defining staple and some might hate it for that.
But we'd have to ban 50% of what defines this format when we ban Brainstorm.

Banning Brainstorm in Legacy sounds like Banning P9, Bazaar and Workshop in Vintage to me.

Edit: Blasphemic was the word I was looking for. Banning Brainstorm in Legacy is blasphemic at best.

[Humphrey]

Its about consistency. Sure you can luck out with every other random competitive deck, but over the course of 10 rounds, the bs player has the better draws.
But we pretty much already concluded: Fetches are the problem, not bs

Turn one kills are a meme.
That said. Historically legacy banlist was vintage restricted list and bs is on there. Eat your blasphemic noob

[Humphrey]

I can't say that getting 2nd place in a 23-person tournament 6 years ago really proves much in regards to Brainstorm.

Or was that supposed to be a joke?


He sounds more like he plays for 6weeks

Join Date
Jul 2018

[Grizzlenasty]

Its about consistency. Sure you can luck out with every other random competitive deck, but over the course of 10 rounds, the bs player has the better draws.
Can't argue that, won't argue that. It's true. I like consistency. Do you rather roll dice?


But we pretty much already concluded: Fetches are the problem, not bs
BS+Fetches was what got me really interested in Magic in the first place. You deem that a problem. I don't



Turn one kills are a meme.
That said. Historically legacy banlist was vintage restricted list and bs is on there. Eat your blasphemic noob

No need to get hostile



He sounds more like he plays for 6weeks

Join Date
Jul 2018

Talking about elitism. Get your manners straight!

[Humphrey]

Why would fetches get you interested in a card game?

Hostile or not, youre a joke boy.

[Grizzlenasty]

Why would get fetches you interested in a card game?

Hostile or not, youre a joke boy.

If anything, your grammar is a joke.
Can we please end this here? You're clearly not wanting to actually argue about anything. Have you seriously just logged in to call me a joke? Have I kicked your ass in Dülmen or Iserlohn before?

I simply like brainstorm and fetches interaction, but a lot of people here seem to be on a crusade against them. I wanted to voice my opinion, no matter how much I might lack the knowledge to do so, and that's it.
Outside of this forum I have never met a single person that thought Brainstorm or fetches need to go. Sure it gets called "broken", but in the end they want it to stay.

Apart from that, I see why this forum is close to dead.
Facebook or discord have nothing to do with it.

[Humphrey]

Its close to dead, because the format is. Partly thanks to mistreating the banlist. At this point there almost as many cards on the list due to fetch interactions than to just outright ban them.

I still would put more weight to this place than random players from since 2018

[non-inflammable]

it's not impossible to do good without Brainstorm under the right circumstances

congrats on the good finish without BS. i turn 2'd a 20/20 and promptly lost to a BS>S&T>Sneak>emrakul. it happens...


I simply like brainstorm and fetches interaction, but a lot of people here seem to be on a crusade against them. I wanted to voice my opinion, no matter how much I might lack the knowledge to do so, and that's it.
Outside of this forum I have never met a single person that thought Brainstorm or fetches need to go. Sure it gets called "broken", but in the end they want it to stay.

my only crusade is against BS. fetches are fine, so was SDT and Deathrite. probe was annoying but acceptable. DTT is only good if you can spam spells and put back any extra copies. no other card does what BS does and it completely warps legacy. would breach and W&6 need a ban without BS in the format? would Oko be so dominant without BS?

don't mind me, i'll be jousting at windmills with my buddy don...