All B/R update speculation.

[DrJones]

Next week is when the DCI updates the Banned and Restrict lists, they usually never touch anything in legacy, but I find the speculation fun anyways! :laugh:

What changes will they do to Legacy and Vintage? Will they unban Earthcraft, or will Tarmogoyf bit the dust? What cheap blue cantrip will be banned in Vintage this time? Does anyone care about the random bannings in the online-only casual formats, which are the only ones updated on a daily basis?

Edit: Didn't have space for Ad Nauseam on that poll. Also Tendrils is missing.
Edit2: And wasteland.


Edit by Dice_Box:

Aaron Forsythe (@mtgaaron) Tweeted:
"It's one of the "pillars of the format" that makes it unique and players tolerate/love. It's like Brainstorm in Legacy. Every saturation metric we could ever invent would point to it being banned, but people love it. Transgressive stuff needs a place to live."

https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/985674571188588544?s=17

[TheRock]

Tezz control has been much more silent in Vintage since Thirst hit the rail, so nothing else will get restricted.

Nothing should change in Legacy either, but I wouldn't be surprised if Goof or Top/CB found the exit either. Anything that Wizards says right now has no merit due to the stunts they've pulled in the last few months.

[Mark Sun]

Tezz control has been much more silent in Vintage since Thirst hit the rail, so nothing else will get restricted.

Nothing should change in Legacy either, but I wouldn't be surprised if Goof or Top/CB found the exit either. Anything that Wizards says right now has no merit due to the stunts they've pulled in the last few months.

Goyf won't be banned, see the Wizards article introducing FTV: Exiled (someone help us out and link?).

Top/CB can be played around. Yes, it creates a pretty sick lock, but unless it suddenly starts dominating the format (which it's not), it won't be touched.

[TheRock]

Goyf won't be banned, see the Wizards article introducing FTV: Exiled (someone help us out and link?).

I understand exactly what you're saying, but this is the same Wizards that unrestricted Gush and said that M10 will be 50% new cards and the same Wizards that rigged a poll...

I wouldn't be surprised anymore. This game moves at a fast pace and changes just happen.

[nitewolf9]

Nothing needs to change as far as banning anything, so I hope Wizards doesn't act stupidly.

I wouldn't mind shaking things up a bit and pulling some stuff off of the banned list. It's really kinda sad to look at it because it shows you exactly how much Wizards cares about Legacy. I suppose that it makes perfect sense though. It seems things are actually slowly getting better for eternal formats.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I am very pleased to see Brainstorm as the first candidate.

I was skeptical about banning it when 2 Eva Green top8ed GP: Chicago, however, the deck somehow failed to continue the impetus. Banning Brainstorm could balance the color pie, weaken combo and let more mid range decks shoring up.

[undone]

Top is the only bannable card. The next closest is brainstorm, aside from those nothing in the format is bannable. the obvious candidates can still come off but will not (land tax, and co)

Vintage will be unchanged.

Standard unchanged.

Extended unchanged.

4,000,023 changes to irrelivant formats

Legacy Unchanged.

Thats my predictions.

[DrJones]

I have a theory about that.

For every set, the members of R&D (former pro-tour players) at Wizards have a fixed number of points to distribute for each color. The absolutely best cards are worth 5 points and the worst ones are worth 0.5. For some dumb reason, they tend to polarize blue so that it gets absolute bombs of crazy power level at rare, and absolute junk that no one plays at common. Then, they call the set balanced.

That explains why blue rares always tend to cost so much compared with the rares in other colors.

[Digital Devil]

WTF??? I mean, why didn't you put Nourishing Shoal on that list? It seriously needs to be banned. The whole Germany is begging for the banhammer! I mean, it is format warping, and certainly unhealthy. Why shouldn't it get the axe??? Also, both Lich/Nefarious Lich need to be banned. I'd rather witness nuclear winter than playing in a Lich-infested format.

P.S. C'mon, men, take that seriously. 3 months ago, nothing changed. In these 3 months, nothing broken has been released. Why should the Legacy ban-list be modified?

[FoolofaTook]

They won't do it but Brainstorm is the most broken card in the format. It's the only way to easily draw 3 cards and keep all of them at little or no cost with no conditionality attached to play. It's the linchpin of big blue - still the most dominant effect in the meta, without which most blue decks would have to rethink their early game plan.

[MMogg]

They won't do it but Brainstorm is the most broken card in the format. It's the only way to easily draw 3 cards and keep all of them at little or no cost with no conditionality attached to play. It's the linchpin of big blue - still the most dominant effect in the meta, without which most blue decks would have to rethink their early game plan.

That being said, solid and broken are two entirely different things. Brainstorm helps blue stay in the game, searching for answers to aggressive decks, but that is not to say that Brainstorm shifts the game (necessarily) in your favour like Ancestral Recall or Fact or Fiction do with their sheer card adavantage. Brainstorm is a solid workhorse, and therefore ubiquitous, but I'd never call it "broken".

[Malchar]

The most bannable cards right now are Sensei's Divining Top and Lion's Eye Diamond:

Sensei's Divining Top is the crux combos with Counterbalance and fetchlands. Also, it is very time consuming and shows up in many decks. It is bordering on being a reusable Brainstorm that requires no colored mana. I would be a little surprised to actually see it banned, but it is probably the closest of any other cards.

Lion's Eye Diamond suffers from looking a lot like a card that is already banned - Black Lotus. It is also rather confusing from a rules perspective. Further, it makes every speedy combo deck a lot faster and frequently winds up operating like a regular Black Lotus for those decks. However, since it has been around for so long, I do not actually see it being banned now. If anything, combo has been on the downhill since Counterbalance showed up even with Ad Nauseum.

As for notable cards that I do not think are bannable...

Counterbalance would not be used without Sensei's Divining Top. Even with a ton of Brainstorms, there is no way to abuse Counterbalance to the point of it being banned. If anything in this combo gets the axe, it will be Sensei's Divining Top.

Tarmogoyf is a vanilla fatty. If anything, it functions to stifle other cards that are much more degenerate by putting a clock on the opponent. Besides, the real gem of the modern "new blue" deck is Counterbalance, not Tarmogoyf.

[FoolofaTook]

That being said, solid and broken are two entirely different things. Brainstorm helps blue stay in the game, searching for answers to aggressive decks, but that is not to say that Brainstorm shifts the game (necessarily) in your favour like Ancestral Recall or Fact or Fiction do with their sheer card adavantage. Brainstorm is a solid workhorse, and therefore ubiquitous, but I'd never call it "broken".

I have never resolved a Brainstorm in which I had much trouble deciding what to put back on top. There are always two weaker cards than everything else in your hand if you have a shuffle effect, and really you only have to have 1 card that is clearly weaker than the rest for many of Brainstorm's applications.

There are many times when I have resolved a Brainstorm and essentially won the game as a result, although sometimes it takes a few turns for that to play out. 3 cards for 1 mana at instant speed is broken no matter how you look at it, and for almost all intents and purposes that is what Brainstorm represents in most of the decks that play it.

I played with Ancestral Recall in almost every deck I played back in the single meta. Even as a one-of it was a back-breaking card when it showed up. Having 4 Brainstorm in a deck is much, much more powerful than having a singleton Ancestral Recall. It is a virtual guarantee that at some point during the game you will suddenly come upon the wealth of 3 fresh cards to refresh your hand as you shuffle away the trash that has built up there in the process.

In a blue deck that often keeps a small number of silver bullets that might or might not be appropriate against a given opponent it is even more powerful because it gives you the chance to swap a dead silver bullet in your hand for a replacement at just the point that that dead card might have begun to really hurt you.

[MMogg]

I have never resolved a Brainstorm in which I had much trouble deciding what to put back on top. There are always two weaker cards than everything else in your hand if you have a shuffle effect, and really you only have to have 1 card that is clearly weaker than the rest for many of Brainstorm's applications.

There are many times when I have resolved a Brainstorm and essentially won the game as a result, although sometimes it takes a few turns for that to play out. 3 cards for 1 mana at instant speed is broken no matter how you look at it, and for almost all intents and purposes that is what Brainstorm represents in most of the decks that play it.

I played with Ancestral Recall in almost every deck I played back in the single meta. Even as a one-of it was a back-breaking card when it showed up. Having 4 Brainstorm in a deck is much, much more powerful than having a singleton Ancestral Recall. It is a virtual guarantee that at some point during the game you will suddenly come upon the wealth of 3 fresh cards to refresh your hand as you shuffle away the trash that has built up there in the process.

In a blue deck that often keeps a small number of silver bullets that might or might not be appropriate against a given opponent it is even more powerful because it gives you the chance to swap a dead silver bullet in your hand for a replacement at just the point that that dead card might have begun to really hurt you.

What you described sounds like a solid card more than a broken card. You know how many games counterspell won me? But does that necessarily mean it's a broken card? A broken card is Ancestral Recall, and you even confirmed what I'm saying: broken cards are back-breaking, game shifting cards. Hence, Ancestral Recall must be restricted in Vintage and banned in Legacy, by the sheer nature of its brokenness. It's not debatable because anyone who has played it knows its power. Now, you cannot say the same thing at all about Brainstorm. It doesn't even give you card advantage! :eek: In order to maximize what you are saying about Brainstorm (that is, get rid of the chaff), you need to run fetchlands (something decks like MUC would and should not do). I remember pre-fetchland Brainstorm being an ok choice, but I also remember drawing chaff for the next two turns. :laugh:

Sorry, I'm still unconvinced that Brainstorm is anything more than a really good and efficient – hell, maybe even great – card, but certainly not broken.

Speaking of broken . . . I remember playing against a casual player who didn't believe in the banned and restricted rules, so he played with 4 Demonic Tutor. Upon learning this, I proceeded to play a deck with multiple Library of Alexandria! :laugh: Holy brokenness! Sorry, just had to share that moment of brokenness. Good times.

[eq.firemind]

Card must not be broken to be banned. Like The Dragon or Goblin Recruiter.

The problem with Brainstorm (my vote) is that it is IMHO just the card that makes blue too powerfull compared to other colors thus making the format too gay :tongue:.
Also there are lots of other cantrips like Opt or Serum Visions that are unplayable because of Brainstorm (reminds Goyf story).

Second candidate is Top because it's boring to watch people spinning it and because it works with Counterbalance making blue stronger, but unlike Brainstorm, Top is available to all colors and that makes it more balanced than Brainstorm.

[overseer1234]

Well, I for one would like to see some cards come off the banned list,
like:

Land Tax (parfait FTW)

Worldgorger Dragon (seriouslym G4 is the only reason to not unban it, and when something is so bad you have to go to G4 and 5 I don't think it will win or warp the format much)

Metal Worker (seriously, even welder is more powerful for stax and hardly see's play)

Some other irrelevant outdated stuff.

For banning I would like to see CB banned (top can go in anny deck and give's midrange a good amount of consistancy) but cince CB+SDT keeps combo in check I think And nauseam and/or LED would need to get hit by he banhammer since they would go out of controll otherzise

[tsabo_tavoc]

Cards may not be broken to be banned. Like The Dragon or Goblin Recruiter.
Fixed and QFT.

Speaking of brokenness, Sensei's Diving Top, Force of Will and Goblin Lackey rank higher than Brainstorm. Hammering Top would not contribute to the color balance while banning Lackey would strengthen blue. Loads of combo pieces would be banned without FoW.

[ParkerLewis]

Mark Rosewater also said that they wouldn't make random discard anymore, just before the reprint of Hypnotic Specter.

Quote him. I dare you.

I'm 99.999(...)99 % sure he used the same and only reasonable way to say something like that, ie among the lines of : "we're now much more cautious about doing things that way. Of course [for the people that never get what you say if you don't point it out explicitly at least three times] i'm not saying it will never happen again, just that you can expect it to be quite rare".

Also, he even probably said this "about making new cards", not about fan-favorites and all-time classics like Hypnotic Specter, although I'm not as sure of this final point.

[Gheizen64]

I see Top banned, for reason stated before.

Then i see:
Tax
Worker

Off the list. And maybe also Druid. Worker suck, Tax also, and Druid is too slow and vulnerable for the current format. Also, if it were viable i wouldn't mind to see a new combo in the format. Note that also Druid would be so easily hateable that it wouldn't never pose a threat to the format.

[Peter_Rotten]

This thread used to be 3 pages long; however, I just deleted all useless posts, one-line posts, two-line posts, posts that could have been PMs, and generally terri-bad posts.

Now the thread is just a page. Hmmm.

[sco0ter]

I can remember him speaking about random discard, too.
I have no quote right now, but he spoke about how "unfun" it is to play against random discard, and therefore they don't want to do it in the future, because Magic is a game about fun.
And yes, it was before 9th edition Hyppie reprint.

Surely he said something about the lines like yours... that it would only be rare case blabla...

[overseer1234]

I see Top banned, for reason stated before.

Then i see:
Tax
Worker

Off the list. And maybe also Druid. Worker suck, Tax also, and Druid is too slow and vulnerable for the current format. Also, if it were viable i wouldn't mind to see a new combo in the format. Note that also Druid would be so easily hateable that it wouldn't never pose a threat to the format.

Ad dragon to that list, there's no reason to keep that card on the list (there are like 99999999999999999999 ways to deal with it)

Worker would be a sweet toy for my stax list (like welder if it would live to see my next turn), and the druid might just make cephalid breakfast Tier 2, same for land tax and Quin/Wombat....

Nothing to frightning if you ask me.


Seriously, CB+Top are the things that keep combo in check, who the hell would be stupid enoug to ban SDT (or CB) without banning some part of a combo engine like LED and Nauseam.

2nd Top by itself is not a problem, I remember picking up my SDT's for half a buck each because they sayd "it costed mana every turn" and it only became populair with CB. At least you could run top in decks that don't use CB.

To conclude this: if you hate CB+SDt ban the CB, since other then the time issue SDT isn't dangerous by itself.

[undone]

To conclude this: if you hate CB+SDt ban the CB, since other then the time issue SDT isn't dangerous by itself.

This is just plain wrong, saying deal with CB is pretty ignorant of how strong top is. Theres a reason in the tempo vs CT/Balance matchups the card force isnt balance but top. Top turns fetchlands into near brainstorms turns counter balance into a lock and replaces itself when someone trys to kill it(barring grip) Top is the strongest card (aside from force/goyf and maby brainstorm) in the average counterbalance deck not balance.

Also the card that stops combo is definately not Countertop its force daze and goyf alongside the other hosers (3sphear discard and chalice)

While my predictions will probably pretty accurate (see page 1 important formats unchanged, irrelivant casual formats infinate +24 changes) I wouldnt mind tax comming off the list simply because while it would be very good it would not be better than say counter/top although it may create problems with the actual top card I doubt it would be a major issue.

In any event I dont see anything on or off the list as problematic because they arent THAT stupid they at least try to make things balanced and they are pretty good at it now a days.

[kicks_422]

I think I can speak for the majority of Storm combo players that CB+Top is really the only thing keeping Storm in check right now. Personally, I feel confident going into a match-up against anything with blue but without CounterTop. If CounterTop is taken off the map (by either banning CB or Top), and with Silence being recently printed, Storm combo would RULE.

[sco0ter]

Seriously, CB+Top are the things that keep combo in check, who the hell would be stupid enoug to ban SDT (or CB) without banning some part of a combo engine like LED and Nauseam.


Then please tell us, which cards kept combo in check before the printing and rise of CB? Yes, AN gave a boost to some combo decks after CB's printing, but not each combo deck plays AN. FoW/Discard/Chant/Chalice/Trinisphere/... should be enough, shouldn't it?
Two+ years ago, it worked, too.



To conclude this: if you hate CB+SDt ban the CB, since other then the time issue SDT isn't dangerous by itself.

Well it's still a Ponder every turn (with fetchies).

[overseer1234]

This is just plain wrong, saying deal with CB is pretty ignorant of how strong top is. Theres a reason in the tempo vs CT/Balance matchups the card force isnt balance but top. Top turns fetchlands into near brainstorms turns counter balance into a lock and replaces itself when someone trys to kill it(barring grip) Top is the strongest card (aside from force/goyf and maby brainstorm) in the average counterbalance deck not balance.

Also the card that stops combo is definately not Countertop its force daze and goyf alongside the other hosers (3sphear discard and chalice).

Then please explain me why it took more then 2 years for top to see this much competitive play in legacy and was considered to slow for a long time.

Then coldsnap was released and CB+Top saw play in extended, and a while after that it saw play in legacy.

Seriously the card is not that broken, it give's good draw selection in almost the same matter that brainstorm does, bit it can be used in anny collor.

Together with CB on the other hand it act's as a one sided chalice of the void that who's counters can be changed at wil going from 0 to 5 in some cases....

Tell me why SDT is the problem here since it really wasn't this populair before Cb was printed... if it was as broken as you say then EVERY deck in legacy would run 4 + fetch, this clearly isn't the case ATM.

[Fons]

The ban wouldn't be because Top is broken but because of the amount of time it takes up.

[Skeggi]

Top keeps combo in check. Therefor it cannot be banned without alot of other cards that will need a ban. Tarmogoyf is the most bannable because banning Tarmogoyf would have the least effect on meta diversity: a meta with Tarmogoyf is diverse, a meta without Tarmogoyf is diverse.

[DrJones]

Then please explain me why it took more then 2 years for top to see this much competitive play in legacy and was considered to slow for a long time.

Then coldsnap was released and CB+Top saw play in extended, and a while after that it saw play in legacy.

Seriously the card is not that broken, it give's good draw selection in almost the same matter that brainstorm does, bit it can be used in anny collor.

Together with CB on the other hand it act's as a one sided chalice of the void that who's counters can be changed at wil going from 0 to 5 in some cases....

Tell me why SDT is the problem here since it really wasn't this populair before Cb was printed... if it was as broken as you say then EVERY deck in legacy would run 4 + fetch, this clearly isn't the case ATM.Some cards just pass belong the radar and it's only after a time that someone discovers their true potential. This happens even with combinations that have been available like forever. Without entering in debates about the bannability of the divining top, I think you need a better argument to defend your line of thinking.

Also, a rethoric question... there are tons of cards that keep storm combo in check, but what keeps aggro-control in check when it becomes too powerful?

[johanessen]

To ban Top is my choice also. Gets card quality every turn, no card disadvantadge for a more than acceptable cost (uncoloured mana), undestructible except for kgrip, and can slow games ad infinitum to get the draw. Also, combining it with fetchlands and/or shuffle effect makes it overpowered definetely

[Kuma]

What I would do:

Unban Dream Halls
Unban Earthcraft
Unban Entomb
Unban Frantic Search
Unban Goblin Recruiter
Unban Grim Monolith
Unban Gush
Unban Hermit Druid
Unban Illusionary Mask
Unban Land Tax
Unban Metalworker
Unban Mind Twist
Unban Time Spiral
Unban Worldgorger Dragon

What will happen:

No changes.

[DragoFireheart]

I honestly only think that SDT would be banned, and for the same reasons it was in Extended: it takes up too much time and drags out the match with constant card adjustments.

I might see Lion's Eye Diamond getting banned due to the relative power it could wield in future combo decks.

Otherwise, nothing really.


As for what will likely happen? Nothing, really.

[Tacosnape]

I could kind of agree with SDT's banning for time. Doubt it happens though.


Tarmogoyf is the most bannable because banning Tarmogoyf would have the least effect on meta diversity: a meta with Tarmogoyf is diverse, a meta without Tarmogoyf is diverse.

This is also true of Hill Giant.

[Dark_Shakuras]

You know the really NEED to ban top, since their reason for banning it in Extended was time reasons, it's the exact same in Legacy. I still think Wizards used "time restrictions" as a lame excuse to ban Counter Top in Extended, as can be seen by it's existence in Vintage and Legacy.

Other than that, there are some things that could come off the list, and i think we might see 1-2 cards come off. But nothing is getting banned.

[TOGITwill]

What I would do:


Unban Goblin Recruiter


Are you serious? Do you really want a tribal-saturated meta to become even more so? Or do you just want to play Food Chain Goblins again...

[Koby]

Hate to say it, but the only real reason we can all agree that SDT would be banned is for time reason, when we all really know we simply hate losing to Counterbalance/Top blowout. In fact, Top isn't nearly as bad in decks that don't try to stop you from casting anything as they are the CB decks. It definitly doesn't take up as much time in those decks either.

I still assert my previously deleted post: Top gives so many opportunities to cheat when the consequences are so trivial since the new M10 rules regarding game rules violations.

Just think how many times a "Top" deck goes on autopilot and assumes SDT is in play and looks at the three cards. I'm willing to wager that it happens more than enough to make it a concern for judges.


What I would do:

Unban Dream Halls
Unban Earthcraft
Unban Entomb
Unban Frantic Search
Unban Goblin Recruiter
Unban Grim Monolith
Unban Gush
Unban Hermit Druid
Unban Illusionary Mask
Unban Land Tax
Unban Metalworker
Unban Mind Twist
Unban Time Spiral
Unban Worldgorger Dragon

You clearly have no clue about how these cards work. The safer choices would be Dream Halls, Entomb, Grim Monolith, Illusionary Mask, Mind Twist, and argueably Land Tax.

The rest are highly and consistently abuseable. Many of the rest of the cards provide an effect for zero, or positive net mana simply on their own.

To wit:
Earthcraft - Turn 1 Nettle Sentinel, Turn 2 Earthcraft, go off. 1 card combo.
Frantic Search - makes Spring Tide a true contender (adds mana + card filtering), secondary uses in reanimator decks
Goblin Recruiter - see GP San Diego 2003. Goblin Combo FTW!
Hermit Druid - 1 card combo
Metalworker - ok, this one is weak without Tinker, but it has potential for abuse
Time Spiral - like TEPS needs more enablers
Worldgorger Dragon - obv.

[DrJones]

Hate to say it, but the only real reason we can all agree that SDT would be banned is for time reason, when we all really know we simply hate losing to Counterbalance/Top blowout. In fact, Top isn't nearly as bad in decks that don't try to stop you from casting anything as they are the CB decks. It definitly doesn't take up as much time in those decks either.

I still assert my previously deleted post: Top gives so many opportunities to cheat when the consequences are so trivial since the new M10 rules regarding game rules violations.

Just think how many times a "Top" deck goes on autopilot and assumes SDT is in play and looks at the three cards. I'm willing to wager that it happens more than enough to make it a concern for judges.I've to agree that I've got my share of "Top" players on MWS shuffling their libraries "by mistake", or trying to activate it without having mana to do so. It gets tiresome. :frown:

Edit: I'd love to play Metalworker + Myr Incubator in legacy. :cool:

[undone]

Some cards just pass belong the radar and it's only after a time that someone discovers their true potential. This happens even with combinations that have been available like forever. Without entering in debates about the bannability of the divining top, I think you need a better argument to defend your line of thinking.

Also, a rethoric question... there are tons of cards that keep storm combo in check, but what keeps aggro-control in check when it becomes too powerful?

Ichorid.

Sorry i know it was rethorical but I couldnt resist.

Top is overwhelmingly too good with fetch lands, it is HIGHLY weakened by the lack of them.

I dont think it will be banned. I think no changes will occur (MABY something will come off) but with a new set comming around the bend we should get 1/2 playables for the format so I am not worried.

[Nightmare]

It won't happen, but I'd love to see Grim Monolith and Metalworker unbanned, so we could have a viable prison deck in the format.

[TorpidNinja]

Earthcraft - Turn 1 Nettle Sentinel, Turn 2 Earthcraft, go off. 1 card combo.
Frantic Search - makes Spring Tide a true contender (adds mana + card filtering), secondary uses in reanimator decks
Goblin Recruiter - see GP San Diego 2003. Goblin Combo FTW!
Hermit Druid - 1 card combo
Metalworker - ok, this one is weak without Tinker, but it has potential for abuse
Time Spiral - like TEPS needs more enablers
Worldgorger Dragon - obv.

Okay, I'll bite: how is Earthcraft a one card combo (considering that you've already established it to be anything but?) And how is WGD obvious without the enablers to which it was accustomed? Actually, most of your complaints about those cards are either off the mark on their real strength or sky-is-falling concerns.

[Koby]

@ Earthcraft: The Sentinel is an example. You can substitute any 1cc Elf for and the Elf combo still works. Add Glimpse of Nature, and now you're 90% sure to win.

@ WGD: Buried Alive is still easy to cast. Careful Study. Read the Runes. Cabal Therapy. etc.

My experiences with these cards is on MTGO Classic, where the majority are not banned and are played from time to time. They aren't dominating... but Classic isn't known to be a competent player's format.

[TorpidNinja]

Right right but, traditionally, when someone says one-card-combo to stir concern they don't usually mean three-card-combo-that's-really-unlikely-to-pull-off-with-a-crap-draw-engine-like-Glimpse.

I suppose my point is that Earthcraft would probably be a blast in Legacy right now and would have little chance of truly dominating when all it takes to beat it is a CB out and a 1-drop on top of the deck (you know, apart from all the other easy avenues - that just happens to come to mind first.)

[Jaynel]

To wit:
Earthcraft - Turn 1 Nettle Sentinel, Turn 2 Earthcraft, go off. 1 card combo.
Um, what?

Frantic Search - makes Spring Tide a true contender (adds mana + card filtering), secondary uses in reanimator decks
Oh no, combo? And really slow combo too? Good thing we can set up Counterbalance in time.

Goblin Recruiter - see GP San Diego 2003. Goblin Combo FTW!
This is a reasonable card to keep banned.

Hermit Druid - 1 card combo
That puts a creature into play, and is dependent on the graveyard. Who plays Breakfast anymore? Nobody.

Metalworker - ok, this one is weak without Tinker, but it has potential for abuse
Like Nightmare said, an actual Prison archetype would be great (and would be a nice foil to CB).

Time Spiral - like TEPS needs more enablers
So it's a Diminishing Returns that costs 2 more and might net you 2 mana?

Worldgorger Dragon - obv.
See Hermit Druid.

[DrJones]

Earthcraft by itself is just like Sol Ring, crazy permanent mana acceleration. It just happens that it also comboes amazingly well with Glimpse-Elves, Squirrel's Nest, Wild Growth and Ant Queen. I think a first turn Wild Growth could perfectly enable 2nd turn Natural Order.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ban Tendrils. Ban Goyf. Ban Brainstorm.

Unban WGD, Recruiter, Dream Halls, Black Vise, Land Tax, Earthcraft, Hermit Druid, Entomb, and Metal Worker.

It'd be fun, anyway.

[socialite]

No one else thinks Metalworker would be busted?

[beastman]

Ban Tendrils. Ban Goyf. Ban Brainstorm.

Unban WGD, Recruiter, Dream Halls, Black Vise, Land Tax, Earthcraft, Hermit Druid, Entomb, and Metal Worker.

It'd be fun, anyway.

You're funny Jack.

[overseer1234]

Unban Dream Halls
To expensive if you ask me.

Unban Earthcraft
to ugly, green has goyf and combo elves, lets leave it at that shall we?

Unban Entomb
Ichorid is allready a pest where I live, dont make it worse, also this would increase the amount of noobs that want to build a crappy reanimator deck that folds to STP and stuff

Unban Frantic Search
Like blue doesn't have enough cheap filtering as it is (don't care about spring tide)

Unban Goblin Recruiter
Basicly means: stack your deck in any order

Unban Grim Monolith
Would make MUD viable if we also got metalworker

Unban Gush
Make any land destruction spell obselete= not that good

Unban Hermit Druid
1card combo BUT: summoning sickness make's it OK I gues

Unban Illusionary Mask
Dreadnought is good enough as it is

Unban Land Tax
I'm cool with this, but the time issue comes to mind (lame reason actually)

Unban Metalworker
I would like to see MUD in legacy with staff of domination combo.

Unban Mind Twist
Needs 4 mana to make it better than hymn, seriously it's not that good

Unban Time Spiral
I had to use gatherer on this one: Free Draw7 = bad mojo


Unban Worldgorger Dragon
Seriously, what deck doesn't have an out against this stupid combo? maybe with entomb this could become Tier 2/3..

[rufus]

It won't happen, but I'd love to see Grim Monolith and Metalworker unbanned, so we could have a viable prison deck in the format.

At some point U + artifact mana hits a singularity. I'm not sure whether Grim Monolith is enough to put things over the top, but Grim Monolith definitely has potential as a combo enabler.

[beastman]

Goblin recruiter had better never get unbanned. It would warp the format so goddamn badly. Goblins would turn into a combo deck that can beat the ever loving shit out of you on turn 3, or, if that fails, just fall back to their old hobby of beating your brains in with little green men.

[Nightmare]

At some point U + artifact mana hits a singularity. I'm not sure whether Grim Monolith is enough to put things over the top, but Grim Monolith definitely has potential as a combo enabler.
It's a colorless Cabal Ritual, that could enable some turn 2 Ad Nauseums. I'm not real worried.

[Koby]

I suppose my point is that <card> would probably be a blast in Legacy right now and would have little chance of truly dominating when all it takes to beat it is a CB out and a 1-drop on top of the deck (you know, apart from all the other easy avenues - that just happens to come to mind first.)

Fixed. CB/Top stops a lot of shenanigans. In terms of Elves - it's not terribly menacing. Vexing Shusher is a green creature for Summoner's Pact purposes, and Shusher beats CB-Top. You also have access to on-color removal for CB, so it's not a complete arguement saying that CB-Top alone beats Earthcraft-Elves. Point taken however. Same deal with Chalice of the Void.

[Nihil Credo]

As long as we're sharing crazy ideas, I still want to play with 4x Balance for three months.

[TorpidNinja]

As long as we're sharing crazy ideas, I still want to play with 4x Balance for three months.

I'll take a gumdrop unicorn and a life-size replica of the Empire State Building made out of steaks.

Edit: In all seriousness, nothing will change.

[FoolofaTook]

As long as we're sharing crazy ideas, I still want to play with 4x Balance for three months.

4x Black Vise
4x The Rack
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Ball Lightning
4x Balance
4x Ankh of Mishra
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Mind Twist
1x Timetwister
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Sol Ring
4x Stripmine
3x City of Brass
4x Volcanic Island
4x Plateau

Oh, those were the days.

[JeroenC]

Nothing is going to be changed, because nothing warrants a change. Even though I'd love to see Dream Halls being unbanned. What is the last card we ever got unbanned?

[rufus]

Nothing is going to be changed, because nothing warrants a change. Even though I'd love to see Dream Halls being unbanned. What is the last card we ever got unbanned?

Mind over Matter

I think they should un-errata the Parallax series, and then immediately ban them...

[Damoxx]

4x Black Vise
4x The Rack
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Ball Lightning
4x Balance
4x Ankh of Mishra
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Mind Twist
1x Timetwister
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Sol Ring
4x Stripmine
3x City of Brass
4x Volcanic Island
4x Plateau

Oh, those were the days.

Loading it up on Shandalar!!

[Nihil Credo]

I think they should un-errata the Parallax series, and then immediately ban them...

I think only Parallax Wave got errata. I agree that it should be restored to its printed wording, and it's very weird that it escaped the Hunt for Power-Level Errata while a comparatively obscure card like Flash didn't. More evidence for Gottlieb's substance abuse, I guess.

Either way, I don't think it warrants an immediate ban. Parallax Wave + Opalescence (and a cursory search doesn't show better options) means a freaking total of 2WW + 2WW to get a combo that doesn't immediately win you the game, although it gets close, and can be foiled by Krosan Grip or Pithing Needle. That's rather less scary than Painter/Grindstone.

[Kuma]

You clearly have no clue about how these cards work.

:rolleyes:


To wit:
Earthcraft - Turn 1 Nettle Sentinel, Turn 2 Earthcraft, go off. 1 card combo.

This isn't significantly better than what Elves! currently does with Birchlore Rangers and Heritage Druid. Besides, Elves! is a bad deck. Why would it be bad for the format to make it better?


Frantic Search - makes Spring Tide a true contender (adds mana + card filtering), secondary uses in reanimator decks

How would making Spring Tide and Reanimator better decks be bad for the format?


Goblin Recruiter - see GP San Diego 2003. Goblin Combo FTW!

I may have misspoke on this one, but is this really more broken than Goblin Lackey? It's nuts with Food Chain, but I have a hard time believing Food Chain Goblins will wreck the format.


Hermit Druid - 1 card combo

...that requires you to wait a turn with a 1/1 in play. Also it's vulnerable to every form of hate in the format. I think it could come off the list.


Metalworker - ok, this one is weak without Tinker, but it has potential for abuse

It might make Stax viable. Oh no!


Time Spiral - like TEPS needs more enablers

TEPS? That Mind's Desire combo deck from Extended? You do know Mind's Desire is banned in Legacy.


Unban Entomb
Ichorid is allready a pest where I live, dont make it worse, also this would increase the amount of noobs that want to build a crappy reanimator deck that folds to STP and stuff

I don't think Ichorid would run Entomb. What are you going to do, put a dredger in your yard with it?


Unban Gush
Make any land destruction spell obselete= not that good

Land destruction spells are already obsolete.


Unban Illusionary Mask
Dreadnought is good enough as it is

Illusionary Mask doesn't really make it better.


Unban Time Spiral
I had to use gatherer on this one: Free Draw7 = bad mojo

Time Spiral is only a free draw seven if you have six lands in play.

[The_Red_Panda]

This isn't significantly better than what Elves! currently does with Birchlore Rangers and Heritage Druid. Besides, Elves! is a bad deck. Why would it be bad for the format to make it better?



While I totally agree that earthcraft can come off the list, Elves! or at least Survival Elves, which to my knowledge is the only variant that sees real play, doesn't run Birchlore Rangers or Heritage Druid. And it's not a bad deck.




I may have misspoke on this one, but is this really more broken than Goblin Lackey? It's nuts with Food Chain, but I have a hard time believing Food Chain Goblins will wreck the format.


I vote that you misspoke. Recruiter might just be too good. When you sit him down with Ringleader, it starts looking really ugly.




...that requires you to wait a turn with a 1/1 in play. Also it's vulnerable to every form of hate in the format. I think it could come off the list.


Eh. Plausible. It could come off the list.




It might make Stax viable. Oh no!


Bazaar would make stax viable. This I think will do little. I agree, off the list.




I don't think Ichorid would run Entomb. What are you going to do, put a dredger in your yard with it?


Thisthisthisthisthis. Entomb is terrible in Ichorid. If you unbanned Entomb and Dragon at the same time it might be a little bit dangerous, but if it's really gonna get broken, it's not going to be in Ichorid.




Land destruction spells are already obsolete.


I like sinkhole. The real reason that Gush shouldn't be unbanned is that it lets thresh dodge wasteland for the low, low cost of drawing two cards. Really. Try goldfishing a thresh list with Gush in it. It's really good.




Time Spiral is only a free draw seven if you have six lands in play.

Yea, this card sucks. Take it off the list.

[Fossil4182]

Cards that could come off of the list would be:

Land Tax (Always suggested, but never does)
Dream Halls (Don't see how this gets broken.... maybe with Painter's Servant)
Earthcraft (maybe)

Cards that could get banned:

I don't foresee anything getting banned. The results of events like Gen Con compared with GP Chicago show that there is a wide variety of decks in the format. CounterTop decks are not making up 1/4 + of the top eights at larger events so my guess is that nothing with get banned. The arguments are all over this thread as to why combo is checked by CounterTop and there are some good reasons and deck out there that will keep CounterTop decks in check.

*As an addendum to the aforementioned prediction on banning, if WotC paid more attention to Legacy, like by having more events, they might see the disparities that some of the members are discussing here. However, looking at the DtB forum and the numbers put up by Nihil, it would seem to me as though there is a healthy distribution of the archetypes and nothing seems to be overly dominating the format right now.

[MMogg]

Bazaar would make stax viable. This I think will do little. I agree, off the list.

What do you mean "would make Stax viable"? Stax is already viable. 4th place (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/53c) isn't too shabby considering most of the decks in the "Decks to Beat" forum didn't even place in the top 8.

[quicksilver]

What do you mean "would make Stax viable"? Stax is already viable. 4th place (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/53c) isn't too shabby considering most of the decks in the "Decks to Beat" forum didn't even place in the top 8.

You quote saying that most of the decks to beat did not make top 8 is rather deceptive, making it seem like the top 8 did nor reflect the DTB forum. A less misleading way to put it would be to say that 5 of the top 8 were decks from the DTB forum.

If you look at legacy tournaments nearly every single one has a couple of rogue decks that top 8. Just because a deck can top 8 one time does not make it good, the deck as top top 8 consistently to be considered good. And yes I am in complete agreement that Stax is not viable, even the worst of decks can get a few luck pairing and a few lucky draws/opponents getting bad draws to make it into the finals. The game has too much luck based to stop that from happening every time.

[Koby]

*As an addendum to the aforementioned prediction on banning, if WotC paid more attention to Legacy, like by having more events, they might see the disparities that some of the members are discussing here. However, looking at the DtB forum and the numbers put up by Nihil, it would seem to me as though there is a healthy distribution of the archetypes and nothing seems to be overly dominating the format right now.

Legacy players buy into their own hype far too much to objectively analyze the format. My "Elves" experiment was largely successful: take an Extended deck, swap some few cards, and win without any effort. Or how about the accounts of Standard WW raping metagames? Saying Earthcraft is not a problem is ignoring that the card is ridiculously consistent in Elves, which is far from a "bad deck".

FFS! I drew literally my entire deck on turn 2 playing the Legacy version.
Here's an example of a T8 showing with Earthcraft Elves. Note: this is Classic MTGO format, but it technically is more powerful than Legacy due to demonic Tutor, Demonic Consultation, and Skullclamp. Earthcraft in the Elf decks is the enabler (mana engine).

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/decks/mol438671

3 Elf decks, 2 C'Top decks, 2 Zoo decks, 1 BG Pox

[MMogg]

You quote saying that most of the decks to beat did not make top 8 is rather deceptive, making it seem like the top 8 did nor reflect the DTB forum. A less misleading way to put it would be to say that 5 of the top 8 were decks from the DTB forum.

If you look at legacy tournaments nearly every single one has a couple of rogue decks that top 8. Just because a deck can top 8 one time does not make it good, the deck as top top 8 consistently to be considered good. And yes I am in complete agreement that Stax is not viable, even the worst of decks can get a few luck pairing and a few lucky draws/opponents getting bad draws to make it into the finals. The game has too much luck based to stop that from happening every time.

Sorry, you're quite right, I was unclear. What I meant was that "deck types" being represented in the top 8. So, for example, if the top 8 were all counter-top and then the decks to beat forum listed 8 decks to beat, it would seem a little skewed to say 8 of the top 8 were from the decks to beat, when in reality, it was one deck, over and over and over. :laugh:

My point was decks like Zoo, ANT, Merfolk, Goblins, and Landstill (that's 5 of the DTB) were not in the top 8, but Stax did make it. I'm not saying you don't need to slog through a hell of a lot of those five decks on your way up to top 8 (or that one tournament necessarily reflects a whole world wide meta), I'm just saying that Stax is already viable when compared to the relative success of the other decks around the format. :smile:

I hope that was a bit clearer.

[ThatGuyThere]

Should be banned - Sensai's Divining Top. Guilty of too much power by association. It was fine in Standard, but combined with fetchlands, Ponders, Brainstorms, and (in particular) Counterbalance, it's too damn strong.

Note that the same effect, for much more mana, has existed for a loooong time (Elemental Augury, Soothsaying) and gone unplayed. This is, to me, a good example of "lower the cost enough, and it becomes too strong".

I'd leave (storm) Combo unbanned for now (Tendrils, Lion's Eye, etc). Let's see if removing Counterbalance *does* have it take over the format. Frankly, I doubt it.

Should come off - Land Tax is an interesting tool that introduces deckbuilding dilemmas - how many basic land? How do I put them back? How do I compensate for having no / limited land? I freely admit it'd be a new deck, and I don't know how anyone who hasn't played with it or against it knows what that deck would be like.

(Yes, yes, Parfait. It's been a few years. There's new cards. Etc, etc, etc.)

(...note that it only comes back if the Top leaves. Free shuffles for Top is bad news.)

[Amon Amarth]

Honestly I don't know how anyone can really think unbanning Goblin Recruiter is right at all. The card is barely a creature. If you can STP it then it's already too late. It's only really vulnerable to countermagic and the occasional discard spell.

If we look at formats like PT:Tinker where you still had Food Chain Goblins in the T8 of that absolutely degenerate format... that says quite a bit about the power level of this card. Best case scenario FCG squashes the viability of non-Goblin Aggro decks.

[Mark Sun]

Should be banned - Sensai's Divining Top. Guilty of too much power by association. It was fine in Standard, but combined with fetchlands, Ponders, Brainstorms, and (in particular) Counterbalance, it's too damn strong.

Note that the same effect, for much more mana, has existed for a loooong time (Elemental Augury, Soothsaying) and gone unplayed. This is, to me, a good example of "lower the cost enough, and it becomes too strong".

I'd leave (storm) Combo unbanned for now (Tendrils, Lion's Eye, etc). Let's see if removing Counterbalance *does* have it take over the format. Frankly, I doubt it.

Should come off - Land Tax is an interesting tool that introduces deckbuilding dilemmas - how many basic land? How do I put them back? How do I compensate for having no / limited land? I freely admit it'd be a new deck, and I don't know how anyone who hasn't played with it or against it knows what that deck would be like.

(Yes, yes, Parfait. It's been a few years. There's new cards. Etc, etc, etc.)

(...note that it only comes back if the Top leaves. Free shuffles for Top is bad news.)

I would love to see Land Tax available, it + Scroll Rack? :eek:

About the Top comment, I dunno, I think Counterbalance keeps combo in check pretty well. I prefer Landstill so half the spells that we play are out of reach of Counterbalance anyways.

[The_Red_Panda]

]
My point was decks like Zoo, ANT, Merfolk, Goblins, and Landstill (that's 5 of the DTB) were not in the top 8, but Stax did make it. I'm not saying you don't need to slog through a hell of a lot of those five decks on your way up to top 8 (or that one tournament necessarily reflects a whole world wide meta), I'm just saying that Stax is already viable when compared to the relative success of the other decks around the format. :smile:



No. Stax is significantly worse against the field in general than a large number of other archetypes. So much so that playing it over another deck that has better matchups all-around is a mistake. In order for Stax to not be a mistake, one must think that the meta has shifted in such a way that you will face only your relatively strong matchups every round. This is extraordinarily unlikely.

Edit for real content:

I voted that LED be Banned. Not for any real reason, I just don't like devoting 4+ sideboard slots to dredge. So I guess my argument is that it's restricting the design space of my sideboard? In reality I don't think they're going to do anything, and I don't really have a problem with that. It wouldn't be so bad to never see dredge again though. I don't think I'd hate that.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Secret sharing time:

I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.

[Dark_Shakuras]

Secret sharing time:

I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.

QFT

Seriously, it's Legacy, the format doesn't turn over every 3 months, mess around with the banned list once in a while.

[overseer1234]

Secret sharing time:

I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.

+1

[Skeggi]

Secret sharing time:

I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.
-1. I'd hate to be another sheep.

If it's not broken, don't fix it. As I've said a million times before: Legacy is a healthy format. There's no need to 'grow balls' and potentially screw up the format. What's the need?

If making prison decks more viable is what you want, you should think again - they're not exactly fun to play against and it would cost Legacy popularity.

[morgan_coke]

Secret sharing time:

I am so goddamn sick of the retarded argument that a card being potentially too powerful is reason enough to ban a card indefinitely, because three months of a distorted metagame in a format with sporadic tournaments would be the end of the world.

Grow some fucking balls. Take a chance. If it's too broken, ban it again. At least with the borderline cases. This shit's getting ridiculous.

Actually, you can use the sparseness of tournaments to make the counter argument to this. If you've only got 2 or 3 or even 1 big event a year, do you really want to waste it with some nonsense like GP: Flash? Where every single deck and the entire tournament is essentially defined by one single card in one very specific deck?

I do hope the list gets shaken up some, but I don't think they should just unban something and "see what happens".

Earthcraft would be my prime choice of this as an example. Seriously, if you haven't played against/with an Elves! deck on modo classic running it, you really don't get how strong it is in that deck.

[overseer1234]

If making prison decks more viable is what you want, you should think again - they're not exactly fun to play against and it would cost Legacy popularity.

Same goes for controll and Storm combo. There's nothing wrong with unbanning cards to make other archtype's more viable, like metalworker (Make MUD viable) WGD (obviously the combo but it would suck so i don't know how viable you call that) and hermit druid (1 card cephalid breakfast, but it has summoning sicknes sow...)

I mean in a format where creature removal is playde so heavy as in legacy, creature's are hardly a problem (except for the occasional conpmlain about Goyf).

Take welder and metalworker for example, they see a large amount (welder more then worker).
While worker is banned, Welder see's only marginal play in welder survival. Even stax doesn't play it because of the amount of removal there is in the format. So why not unban Metalworker.


All in a nutshell, I think wizards should make it their policy to keep the banned list as small as possible. Legacy is an eternal format FFS, it is cool because we can play with "almost' every card ever printed, so make a point of making the "almost" part as small as possible.

[DrJones]

Hermit Druid by itself is vulnerable. The problem is that if you give it haste it totally avoids removal and also accelerates the deck by one turn, and that any deck playing it can pack easily +20 combo protection spells, which is what made flash broken in the first place (1 card combo, *2 mana total, combo takes almost no slots in the deck, +20 protection spells).
Rough decklists (made in five minutes) of both strategies were tested in the Hermit Druid thread and those decklists were already insanely good. Just because you can't see the danger doesn't mean it's safe to unban.

*Actually, Hermit Druid is :g: to activate, but whatever.

[JeroenC]

-1. I'd hate to be another sheep.

If it's not broken, don't fix it. As I've said a million times before: Legacy is a healthy format. There's no need to 'grow balls' and potentially screw up the format. What's the need?

qft
You WILL lose people in those three months. If you want to know what would be possible by going nuts, organise some casual Legacy tournaments for you and your friends with different B&R lists.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

GP Flash was actually fairly interesting as an exercise in how to break the most broken combo Wizards has ever made.

But we don't have a GP coming up, and most cards on the banned list don't come anywhere near the power level of Flash.

I look at Vintage with goddamn envy. Wizards is constantly tinkering with the Vintage list in order to try and find more dynamic configurations. Sure, some of their moves, like unbanning Gush, turn out to be bad ideas. They lead to a brief period of dominance and then they get banned again. Is it the end of the world? No. It just means anyone with a double digit pulse can actually follow and enjoy the format.

What evidence is there to suggest that anyone would be lost? Does Vintage lose people, or has it attracted more people with the shaking up of the format? Did Legacy lose people over Flash or did it draw attention to the format?

Here's the thing;

When they first separated the list, everyone- and I mean everyone, whether you were for or against the changes- said the cards they chose to ban and unban were random as fuck. People were deeply upset that they banned cards that weren't even a blip on the 1.5 radar like Oath, Land Tax and Hermit Druid, while leaving off tutors and fast mana that enabled Tendrils-combo to exist in the format for the first time.

Even Wizards themselves said (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af30) that the list was just an asspull, trying out a few things and saving tinkering for a later date.

It's five years later. Legacy has, by my count, endured a total of five changes. One of those was the banning of Flash, a card that only existed, functionally, for a month. One of those was the banning of Imperial Seal, which didn't actually legally exist in the format prior to being banned. One card banned, Shahrazad, saw no play and was banned due to speculative hypothetical asshattery. Two cards unbanned, Mind over Matter and Replenish, have seen scant fringe play.

No other format with a wide cardpool has received so little development attention, even the casual formats like Prismatic. Legacy "works" in that the same deck that was the best strategy two years ago is still the best strategy, and other decks have some relevant chance of competing with said best deck.

It's also boring as fuck.

Nothing bad would happen from three months that are actually distinguishable in some way from the three months preceding them in Legacy play.

[P.S.]

I want Sensei's Divining Top banned. No, I do not think it is too powerful of a card. No, I do not think that Counterbalance is a metagame breaking deck. I want it banned for this reason:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h220/Drag0nthrax/Top.jpg

The card slows all games down to a crawl. It's really frustrating. Yet, you can't really call a judge or accuse people of "stalling" because they can simply say "I'm thinking" and when they're looking at three new cards and have the option of using the Top to switch with one of them, how can you argue? Throw in fetchlands so that they could very well be looking at a new set of three cards and just UGH. Plus it comes out on the first turn. If I'm playing a slower deck, like MUC and they play a first turn Top, there's a good chance that match is going to a draw if it goes three games.

[DragoFireheart]

GP Flash was actually fairly interesting as an exercise in how to break the most broken combo Wizards has ever made.

But we don't have a GP coming up, and most cards on the banned list don't come anywhere near the power level of Flash.

I look at Vintage with goddamn envy. Wizards is constantly tinkering with the Vintage list in order to try and find more dynamic configurations. Sure, some of their moves, like unbanning Gush, turn out to be bad ideas. They lead to a brief period of dominance and then they get banned again. Is it the end of the world? No. It just means anyone with a double digit pulse can actually follow and enjoy the format.

What evidence is there to suggest that anyone would be lost? Does Vintage lose people, or has it attracted more people with the shaking up of the format? Did Legacy lose people over Flash or did it draw attention to the format?

Here's the thing;

When they first separated the list, everyone- and I mean everyone, whether you were for or against the changes- said the cards they chose to ban and unban were random as fuck. People were deeply upset that they banned cards that weren't even a blip on the 1.5 radar like Oath, Land Tax and Hermit Druid, while leaving off tutors and fast mana that enabled Tendrils-combo to exist in the format for the first time.

Even Wizards themselves said (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af30) that the list was just an asspull, trying out a few things and saving tinkering for a later date.

It's five years later. Legacy has, by my count, endured a total of five changes. One of those was the banning of Flash, a card that only existed, functionally, for a month. One of those was the banning of Imperial Seal, which didn't actually legally exist in the format prior to being banned. One card banned, Shahrazad, saw no play and was banned due to speculative hypothetical asshattery. Two cards unbanned, Mind over Matter and Replenish, have seen scant fringe play.

No other format with a wide cardpool has received so little development attention, even the casual formats like Prismatic. Legacy "works" in that the same deck that was the best strategy two years ago is still the best strategy, and other decks have some relevant chance of competing with said best deck.

It's also boring as fuck.

Nothing bad would happen from three months that are actually distinguishable in some way from the three months preceding them in Legacy play.


That reasoning is a shit poor one for unbanning cards, only for them to be broken and have to wait on Wizards to ban them again.

If the format is becoming too boring, and you envy Vintage... why not go play Vintage?

[Koby]

GP: Flash, Legacy development, I am infallable.

Mostly agree with the comments. The lack of format development can be read in two ways. The first, is that WotC is simply ignoring the format since it's not highly visible nor is it highly cantancerous (meaning no outright repeatable dominating card/strategy). Conversely, it could also mean that the format is structured as such that with the wide diversity in strategies, it's really healthy.

Innovation in the format has largely stopped about 3 years ago, after it was determined that Goblins can and will prey on badly built decks. Thresh was a good push towards defining the format as cost efficient and tempo driven.

I dare say that the majority of format development has been shaped by newer sets. Goyf outdated the majority of creature strategies. Counterbalance shifted the traditional control deck to become a leaner, meaner fighting machine. Planeswalkers open up a possibility of entirely new control designs (Landstill & ilk). Ad Nauseum pushes the envelope of Storm in ways that remind the format to not forget about it. Ichorid/Affinity take the aggro crown and put everyone on tilt.

Speculation regarding the upcoming B&R announcement is probably just an excercise in futility. Most of the top decks don't claim to have more than 60+% matchup across the entire metagame slice, and is evident by the lack of any single dominating deck. The fact is that most metagame are extremely isolated between regions, and that metagame decks in one city get blown out in other cities.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That reasoning is a shit poor one for unbanning cards, only for them to be broken and have to wait on Wizards to ban them again.

If the format is becoming too boring, and you envy Vintage... why not go play Vintage? Stop trying to have the Legacy world cater to you, IBA.

No. See, things being boring is the absolute only reason to change anything about a game. Every other reason, when examined in depth, and every other complaint comes down to two conflicting facts;

1) Games should be entertaining

2) The given issue is making it less entertaining.

So saying that it doesn't matter if shit is boring is absolutely retarded.

[DragoFireheart]

No. See, things being boring is the absolute only reason to change anything about a game. Every other reason, when examined in depth, and every other complaint comes down to two conflicting facts;

1) Games should be entertaining

2) The given issue is making it less entertaining.

So saying that it doesn't matter if shit is boring is absolutely retarded.


Except that you are assuming that Legacy is boring for everyone and if that were the case, I'd agree. Again, stop trying to take control of the Legacy format.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

No. See, things being boring is the absolute only reason to change anything about a game. Every other reason, when examined in depth, and every other complaint comes down to two conflicting facts;

1) Games should be entertaining

2) The given issue is making it less entertaining.

So saying that it doesn't matter if shit is boring is absolutely retarded.

Do you even like Magic?

You're saying you're envious of Vintage, the format of taking turns watching each other masturbate...but Legacy is boring? Legacy, with tens of viable decks rather than 3? Not to mention the frequent fluctuations in meta (rise of Merfolk etc)? Yeah, total zzzzs...

[DrJones]

IBA is just looking for attention. When he posts, flocks of sheep will quote him and then kiss his ass as if he was some sort of god. Nothing special, really.

Edit: Oh, I suppose I'll stay on topic. I expect that if SDT is to be banned it would be for the same reason as it was in Extended. I'm wondering why it happened in extended and not Legacy though... Wizards hates this format?Because they really banned Sensei's Divining Top for power-level reasons. It's just that they can safely ban a combo piece for power reasons, because the players will take that as an accomplishment, but they can't do the same when they ban a stalling control piece, because the players affected take it as if they were deprived of a divine right or something, so they have to resort to euphemisms instead. :eek:

They sure know their players. :cool:

[frogboy]

Henceforth, all discussion of "ban this" and "unban that" will exist in this thread only. Discussions elsewhere will be aggressively moderated

[BreathWeapon]

Ban Goyf, Top and LED = best format ever.

[tivadar]

So why should your opinion be worth considering? You've yet to prove to me that Legacy is "boring". Don't preach semantics or other nonsense as I don't care about it.

If no one's opinions were worth considering, then why is this even a thread? The question was "what needs to be changed with b/r". IBA gave his opinion as to what and why. That seems fine by me. So far as I can tell, he hasn't argued his opinion is truth.

I actually agree with him in this. The format has become somewhat stagnant and there's a lot on the B/R list that could easily come off. Sure, it might have an impact on the format, but would that impact be any worse that Tarmogoyf? The power level of the cards on the B/R list was considered prior to power levels in general increasing. So give them a shot, what's the big deal? As IBA pointed out, the worst thing that happens is they get banned a few months down the line.

EDIT: This post is subtitled "Look Kids, it's Landstill, Threshold, and Goblins!"
EDITEDIT: Yes I realize there are other decks, but still...

[DragoFireheart]

If no one's opinions were worth considering, then why is this even a thread?

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said that. I did, however, ask why his opinion should be worth considering.



The question was "what needs to be changed with b/r". IBA gave his opinion as to what and why. That seems fine by me. So far as I can tell, he hasn't argued his opinion is truth.

He came off as suggesting more merit to his opinion as opposed to others. You know, in his own IBA way.


I actually agree with him in this. The format has become somewhat stagnant and there's a lot on the B/R list that could easily come off. Sure, it might have an impact on the format, but would that impact be any worse that Tarmogoyf? The power level of the cards on the B/R list was considered prior to power levels in general increasing. So give them a shot, what's the big deal? As IBA pointed out, the worst thing that happens is they get banned a few months down the line.

I disagree on the stagnant part. One look at the DTB list and Established decks will show quite a few many decks a player can construct and/or try. Is this same variety present in Vintage?

I'd rather not have those few months of headache, slippery slope, ect. Also, which cards did you have in mind for unbanning?

[overseer1234]

Do you even like Magic?

You're saying you're envious of Vintage, the format of taking turns watching each other masturbate...but Legacy is boring? Legacy, with tens of viable decks rather than 3? Not to mention the frequent fluctuations in meta (rise of Merfolk etc)? Yeah, total zzzzs...

By saying this, you, my friend have just proven to me that you have never ever seen a half decent game of vintage.

[dirtyapes]

If they ban goyf I may stop playing Legacy. It would be ridiculous for them to ban a vanilla creature. SDT is the only card I could see them banning and it would just be for time issues. But even then, I would not like to see it banned.
I do think that they should try removing some cards from the banned list to see what the impact is and make assessments from there. If it turns out to be a bad idea they can change their minds back and put the card back on the list. I am just all for having more decks in Legacy so as long as they don't disrupt the format terribly, I want a bigger card pool to choose from. That being said, I wish they would try harder to make cards that are good for Legacy when printing new cards.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I don't want them to ban goyf, but I do wish goyf had never been printed. I mean, I paid like $30 each for my goyfs, and I'd certainly be annoyed if they got the banhammer. But still, I feel like I would enjoy the format infinitely more if that creature did not exist and slide so easily into so many decks. I miss Watchwolf being good. Hell, I miss Silver Knight being playable.

So yeah. In the hypothetical world where they ban goyf, I'd be slightly annoyed for about 10 seconds and then be pretty happy that you actually have to pay more than 2 mana to have a 5/6 again.

[MMogg]

As a player who has just recently been coming back to Magic after six years away, I can safely say that this format is different and it does change. The problem of boredom for some veteran players may be because of the incremental basis in which the change has occurred. So many of the cards that define this format were completely new to me: Goyf, Counterbalance, SDT, Vial, Ad Nauseum, etc. Not to mention how many deck mainstays were new (on average 40-60% for me).

Also, as a newcomer, it seems a very wide open format with a lot of different deck types, which is always what Wizards' goal has been for every format (sometimes they fail in reaching that goal). I couldn't see banning anything, but I would love to see Oath of Druids unbanned. I'm not entirely convinced that it couldn't be just another DTB and played around. I have a difficult time believing it would dominate such a massively diverse format with nearly every card in its pool.

[dahcmai]

I'm still wondering why they bother keeping Land Tax on there. It's not horridly broken by any means "anymore". I say anymore since it is one powerful card and always was. I played back in the Black Summer and no one who did can deny how strong it was back then. I do think it's lost a lot of it's power though compared to back then.

If Tax comes off it will demand that Top goes on though. Top + Tax would just be annoying as hell to play against and who wouldn't put both in the same deck. It's a nice combo to see 3 new cards every turn. Despite the fact it would finally give White some serious power, it would end up only being the next Blue tool.

So in the end, of course, things stay the way they are or at least that's what I would do. It's fairly even with the decks out there right now.

[beastman]

I'm pretty sure they're only keeping land tax on the list to piss off Jack Elgin.

[herbig]

Ban Sensei's Divining Top

Unban:

* Dream Halls
* Earthcraft
* Grim Monolith
* Illusionary Mask
* Mind Twist
* Time Spiral
* Worldgorger Dragon

[The_Red_Panda]

I couldn't see banning anything, but I would love to see Oath of Druids unbanned. I'm not entirely convinced that it couldn't be just another DTB and played around. I have a difficult time believing it would dominate such a massively diverse format with nearly every card in its pool.

I hate to keep picking on you, but no. We really don't want Oath unbanned. Like, there aren't very many cards on the list I want unbanned less than I want Oath unbanned.


It would be ridiculous for them to ban a vanilla creature.

:rolleyes:

[sligh16]

It would be ridiculous for them to ban a vanilla creature.

There is always a first time :wink:

[beastman]

Good lord, if oath gets unbanned, I'm going to have a new favorite deck until it gets banned three months later.

[MMogg]

I hate to keep picking on you, but no. We really don't want Oath unbanned. Like, there aren't very many cards on the list I want unbanned less than I want Oath unbanned.

Pick away! :laugh: That's what forums are for: civilized discussion/debate.

One thing, I said I would love to see it unbanned, but I didn't say unban it. A slight difference. I think the field seems pretty diverse as it is now and wouldn't want to see anything changed for the moment. That being said, you didn't give any reasons why you think Oath would dominate the field and completely ruin Legacy. Maybe I'm missing something and being naive (a high probability), but Oath isn't exactly a combo that goes off in the first few turns and wins. There are many answers to it and it certainly wouldn't be an auto-win against the field.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Pick away! :laugh: That's what forums are for: civilized discussion/debate.

One thing, I said I would love to see it unbanned, but I didn't say unban it. A slight difference. I think the field seems pretty diverse as it is now and wouldn't want to see anything changed for the moment. That being said, you didn't give any reasons why you think Oath would dominate the field and completely ruin Legacy. Maybe I'm missing something and being naive (a high probability), but Oath isn't exactly a combo that goes off in the first few turns and wins. There are many answers to it and it certainly wouldn't be an auto-win against the field.

I'm not sure what kind of oath decks you've played against, but...

Yes. Yes it is.

[sdematt]

I think there are some things that can come off the ban list for some tryouts, and see what happens. I wouldn't mind if they warped the metagame for 4 months, because they'd just ban it again. The 4 months would suck, but hey, I'd love to see how bringing back some old awesome would do.

[Koby]

There is always a first time :wink:

I'm not sure if you mean Kird Ape, but I guess it wouldn't be the first time something silly like that would happen.

[AngryTroll]

That being said, you didn't give any reasons why you think Oath would dominate the field and completely ruin Legacy. Maybe I'm missing something and being naive (a high probability), but Oath isn't exactly a combo that goes off in the first few turns and wins. There are many answers to it and it certainly wouldn't be an auto-win against the field.

Oath is pretty ridiculous. It's Natural Order, but costs 1G and combos with your opponent's Goyfs and a land that can only be stopped by Blood Moon (or several other very narrow cards, what, combine a chain of Stifles and Swords and Wastelands to try to keep yourself off of a creature?).

You only need to run seven or eight cards for the combo. You get to run the other 50some cards to support it-that means Counterbalance and Top, Daze, Spell Snare, and Force, I even saw Vintage lists running Negate. You can run Ponders and Brainstorms (and Top), real, old fashioned Counterspells, tons of removal, whatever you want. Basically, it's Thresh, but now it ignores your opponent's removal and gets an extra slot or two for goodstuff.

Then, you get to choose your flavor for win conditions. Do you want Akroma and Hellkite Overlord? Progenitus and the giant shrouded (almost) Platinum Angel?

Oath is awesome. But I think it's probably fine on the banned list. I mean, sure, it dies to Spell Snare and Krosan Grip, but Goyf dies to Spell Snare and Swords, and Counterbalance dies to Spell Snare and Grip. Oath would be at the very high end of the power curve for sure.

[Bardo]

Good lord, if oath gets unbanned, I'm going to have a new favorite deck until it gets banned three months later.

100% agree.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oath has the same problem as Flash; it's cheap, splashable, and requires very few dedicated slots in your deck. It has the weakness of not being blue, or instant, and of only giving you Progenitus instead of the instant kill. However, it's still almost certainly too powerful to unban. There's a dozen or two dozen less contentious cards that should get a trial in the format before Oath is even seriously discussed.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Albeit I LOVE playing Doomsday, I would like to see Top or Counterbalance get banned. Then the format may actually get a little bit diverse and you will hopefully see unique control decks instead of the same garbage that is crammed into them. Top would hurt combo a lot but it would not be devastating, it would restructure Thresh, and Rock decks will take a serious hit. I would like to see what that does to the format.

On a personal note I would like to see Top and/or Counterbalance get banned and let the format get Gush. We might see the old Miracle Grow decks come back, that would actually be kind of cool. Oh, and the fact that Doomsday would be the best deck if they were able to run Gush! Ritual, Doomsday with Gush in hand .... lose! Mainly I would like to mess around with different DD piles and see what all is possible with the card! I think Gush would bring a lot of creativity to the format.

[AngryTroll]

There's a dozen or two dozen less contentious cards that should get a trial in the format before Oath is even seriously discussed.

And a handful of the most contentious cards in the format are arguably not as strong as Oath. See: Counterbalance, Lackey, Goyf.

Oath actually has a fair amount of the problems Goyf has-you can run it with very little commitment in a blue deck. Sure, you can't run Goyf too, but you get a win condition that's maybe even better. Swords costs W, Path costs W, Vendetta costs B, Smother costs 1B; enchantment removal costs W for sorcery speed, 1G for instant speed, and 2G for split second.

[tsabo_tavoc]

On a personal note I would like to see Top and/or Counterbalance get banned and let the format get Gush.

Oh, what a dangerous combo player:laugh:

Tempo Thresh has already the same dominance as CounterTop Thresh. The proposal would lead to a bipolar metagame, as WotC thought before GP:Chicago, Force of Will VS Dark Ritual, despite the real strength of Combo lying on the Orim's Chant and Silence.

[GGoober]

Oath won't be unbanned. Legacy is predominantly aggro-control, aggro, control, combo. The meta is too rich in creatures for Oath to be healthy. In Vintage, the trouble is to get Orchard to donate a creature. In Legacy, due to the focus on aggro/aggro-control decks, Oath activates all the time, making it far too consistent.

[undone]

There is always a first time :wink:

I would just like to note that that would be the 2nd time, kird ape was clearly banned once see FTV exiled:P

Also as a side note are we seriously talking about unbanning oath :confused: Thats like having a discussion about tolarian acadamy and saying "its not broken we dont have the power 9" :rolleyes: I seriously hope those in favor of unbanning oath check into a mental hospital soon.

For those in favor of gush read above.

The only cards I would like to see off it are idioticly small and wouldnt destroy the format although they would create new decks almost definately and those are land tax and possibly dream halls, halls is no longer a threat to the format, im not going out on a limb by saying that, when we have a format where cards that cost UU and 1 can lock out a dream halls player and waste/stifle/daze/force exist along side quick clocks I can see it being a ligit deck if built well but I NEVER forsee that the deck destroys the format.

Land tax is only on it because pro players will simply sit at X lands and it becomes problematic when people go tundra tax daze your spell, draw 3 lands. Its not over powered but it makes the format shift in favor of blue even more it also helps invalidate wasteland (waste your land both players sit at 0 lands for infinate)

Mainly its on the list I think because they dont want the formats land disruption to become worse. I would like it unbanned but there is no need to do so.

[tivadar]

Land tax is only on it because pro players will simply sit at X lands and it becomes problematic when people go tundra tax daze your spell, draw 3 lands. Its not over powered but it makes the format shift in favor of blue even more it also helps invalidate wasteland (waste your land both players sit at 0 lands for infinate)

Well, really, it makes the format shift in the favor of white. And given the utter lack of white as anything but a splash really now, I don't see the problem in this. Green and Blue are currently the dominant colors, with perhaps a bit of Red. Not to mention, Tax only fetches basics, so the amount of thinning it can do/amount of splashing you can do with it is limited.

[MMogg]

Also as a side note are we seriously talking about unbanning oath :confused: Thats like having a discussion about tolarian acadamy and saying "its not broken we dont have the power 9" :rolleyes: I seriously hope those in favor of unbanning oath check into a mental hospital soon.

Hehe, I don't think Tolarian Academy and Oath are on the same power level, I really don't, and I think many are overstating Oath's power. It was a great Extended deck, but it didn't dominate the field. Wasn't Tolarian banned in extended? It's still banned in Urza's Block Constructed (you know you all still play this).

I guess I am being (unintentionally) naive, and I really can't see how it would be so much more damaging to the format than it was to Extended back when it was Extended legal. Surely Legacy, with a much larger card pool, would have a lot more answers than old Extended did. What's so different that makes the mere mention of Oath warrant mental institutionalization? :laugh: Progenitus? One friggin' creature? :confused:

I'm truly not trying to be obtuse or stupid, but I admit, I am ignorant to seeing what so many see as so obviously destructive to the entire Legacy format. :confused:

[Gheizen64]

This is stupid.

Goyf cost 1G, is a 4/5 or 5/6 that doesn't do anything else and that is already present in every deck of the format and hate almost every other creature out. A lot of people (not me) ask for it to be banned.
You, on the other hand, think that a 1G 10/10 protection from everything creature isn't that much of a problem. Also, that 10/10 could be a lot of different things, like the djiini that bounces something everytime you cast a spell (easy with everything in your graveyard).

Oh, wait, but Oath do nothing against AdNT! The only deck that doesn't play creatures! Too bad Oath is a control deck filled with countermagic, disruption and 4 oath + 1 progenitus as the win condition, so AdNT can suck it and die.

Extended had oath when it had also tinker, so gg.

[tivadar]

Not to mention, I'd imagine in an oath deck the player would add cards that would remove threats/counter/bounce and give your opponent a 1/1 token. So yeah, it could be effective against AdNT.

EDIT: Forbidden Orchard comes to mind...

[johanessen]

Man, Oath of Druids is EXTREMLY POWERFUL. Believe me, it's nearly insane at Flash, does not instakill but has less slots dedicated to the combo so has alot more protection in form of counterspells basicly (removal not that needed because it enables the combo.)

Cards I think are safe for unbanning from list:

-Black Vise.
-Dream Halls.
-Entomb.
-Earthcraft.
-Grim Monolith.
-Hermit Druid.
-Land Tax.
-Mind Twist.


What do you think about Tolarian Academy? It's that powerful in Legacy that has to be banned? I know in Vintage it's extremly dangerous with the amount of artifacts see play, but in Legacy I don't know so tha'ts why I'm asking.

[DragoFireheart]

Hehe, I don't think Tolarian Academy and Oath are on the same power level, I really don't, and I think many are overstating Oath's power.

No, there is no over statement of Oaths power.

Yes, Academy and Oath are not on the same power level. I can only imagine how Legacy would abuse that silly Academy...

No, Oath doesn't need to be unbanned. Last thing we need is CT-Oath Progenitus stomping the entire format in a way only Flash-Hulk could.

Yes, I am confused as to why Land Tax is still on the list. Is there some super secret tech that allows it to break games?

[DragoFireheart]

And a handful of the most contentious cards in the format are arguably not as strong as Oath. See: Counterbalance, Lackey, Goyf.

Oath actually has a fair amount of the problems Goyf has-you can run it with very little commitment in a blue deck. Sure, you can't run Goyf too, but you get a win condition that's maybe even better. Swords costs W, Path costs W, Vendetta costs B, Smother costs 1B; enchantment removal costs W for sorcery speed, 1G for instant speed, and 2G for split second.


If Oath was ever unbanned, I forsee a UGB list, choke full of counters and discard, Counter-Top and it's kill condition is Oath of Druids-Progenitus.

[undone]

Man, Oath of Druids is EXTREMLY POWERFUL. Believe me, it's nearly insane at Flash, does not instakill but has less slots dedicated to the combo so has alot more protection in form of counterspells basicly (removal not that needed because it enables the combo.)

Cards I think are safe for unbanning from list:

-Black Vise.
-Dream Halls.
-Entomb.
-Earthcraft.
-Grim Monolith.
-Hermit Druid.
-Land Tax.
-Mind Twist.


What do you think about Tolarian Academy? It's that powerful in Legacy that has to be banned? I know in Vintage it's extremly dangerous with the amount of artifacts see play, but in Legacy I don't know so tha'ts why I'm asking.
You

are

INSANE.

Unbanning acadamy is like grabing the format, taking a crap on it, flushing it down, and then telling players to play with this shit.

As a side note the only cards on that list that would be interesting but potentialy broken are, earth craft, mind twist and Druid. Vice would go in the standard red deck and maby a few others, monolith is just underpowered for the current format (colorless mana is pretty weak when it requires untap mana)

Entomb: STILL BROKEN GUYS, you arent soposed to be able to tutor for B.

I really want tax to go off but it will stay because it frequently acts as an acestral recall and is always a recall with scroll rack (infact the rack/tax combo is FAR stronger than say Counter/top because it actualy DRAWS 3 cards for the low cost of 1 colorless mana) the only problem is its probably just another blue deck and fetching 6 islands to scroll rack back (the card also ironicaly has good synergy with Counter top =\ ) I dont know if the combo justifies a ban but its pretty strong but I would like to see it back still.

Also to all you"Unban oath" players, oathing sundering titans and tidespout tyrants out is pretty hot in this format.

[FoolofaTook]

Oath has the same problem as Flash; it's cheap, splashable, and requires very few dedicated slots in your deck. It has the weakness of not being blue, or instant, and of only giving you Progenitus instead of the instant kill. However, it's still almost certainly too powerful to unban. There's a dozen or two dozen less contentious cards that should get a trial in the format before Oath is even seriously discussed.

It's a permanent with summoning sickness, since it has no effect prior to your following upkeep. It's Spell Snare-able. It's Krosan Grip-able. It's EE-able. It's Vindicate-able. In other words most of the commonly played answers in the meta hit it. If it actually was as good as it seems like it might be then Diabolic Edict would make a comeback in a hurry and be there also. It's no answer against fast aggro because fast aggro probably already has you too low for Progenitus to matter much, given he can block only one creature, arrived a turn late and doesn't help you out against burn at all. It's of no value against creatureless decks. It would be played not just with Progenitus but probably also with Tarmogoyf, for defensive purposes if nothing else, meaning that it would function as a slow Tarmogoyf in many cases (4x Goyf, 1x Progenitus).

Basically the broken in the card is not as broken as just drawing and playing a Tarmogoyf in most instances.

Could people put together decks to heavily abuse it? Sure, and that's true for Painter's Servant and Grindstone, it's true for PD and Stifle, it's true for Natural Order and Progenitus, it's true for Ad Nauseum and whatever and it's true for Ichorid's circus. Oath of Druids isn't substantially more broken than any of the above and really it's not as broken as Stiflenought. Once you get into a meta where a control deck can put a 12/12 trampler on the board on turn 2 you've kind of exhausted the fear that any creature based combo that does not kill instantly evokes.

[Nihil Credo]

It would be played not just with Progenitus but probably also with Tarmogoyf, for defensive purposes if nothing else, meaning that it would function as a slow Tarmogoyf in many cases (4x Goyf, 1x Progenitus).

Basically the broken in the card is not as broken as just drawing and playing a Tarmogoyf in most instances.

It's kind of amazing how you spelled out in the very same sentence why putting Tarmogoyf in Oath would be a bad idea and still totally missed it.

Also, please think a bit more about your comparison of Stifle/Nought and Oath/Progenitus.

[Elfrago]

Legacy is still a format dominated by creatures, and oath decks simply pwns them. Having a combo that most of the time is just a 1 card combo is absloutely not good for the format.

[DragoFireheart]

It's a permanent with summoning sickness, since it has no effect prior to your following upkeep. It's Spell Snare-able. It's Krosan Grip-able. It's EE-able. It's Vindicate-able. In other words most of the commonly played answers in the meta hit it. If it actually was as good as it seems like it might be then Diabolic Edict would make a comeback in a hurry and be there also. It's no answer against fast aggro because fast aggro probably already has you too low for Progenitus to matter much, given he can block only one creature, arrived a turn late and doesn't help you out against burn at all. It's of no value against creatureless decks. It would be played not just with Progenitus but probably also with Tarmogoyf, for defensive purposes if nothing else, meaning that it would function as a slow Tarmogoyf in many cases (4x Goyf, 1x Progenitus).

Basically the broken in the card is not as broken as just drawing and playing a Tarmogoyf in most instances.

Could people put together decks to heavily abuse it? Sure, and that's true for Painter's Servant and Grindstone, it's true for PD and Stifle, it's true for Natural Order and Progenitus, it's true for Ad Nauseum and whatever and it's true for Ichorid's circus. Oath of Druids isn't substantially more broken than any of the above and really it's not as broken as Stiflenought. Once you get into a meta where a control deck can put a 12/12 trampler on the board on turn 2 you've kind of exhausted the fear that any creature based combo that does not kill instantly evokes.


Except that PD dies to everything and the combo to bring it out is highly vulnerable. Counter the Stifle or discard it or blow up the PD with a gazillion spells. Hell, Shatter kills the damn thing.

The thing about Oath is that it's power is contain and only needs 5 cards: 4 oath and a creature of your choice (Progenitus most likely, maybe some other beater). The thing is, the combo is so small that you can literally fill the rest of your deck with disruption so that it WILL come out. Oh, and decks that are creatureless are not an issue: say hello to Forbidden Orchard for me, will ya?

[dirtyapes]

Oath would be bad to bring back. It would cause a warp to the format for the whole time that it is legal. Anything that will clearly warp the format should not be considered to bring off the B/R list. I do think there are some cards that could come off and not be bad for the format. Since they can take them put them back on in 3 months if they do mess the format there is some control that they have in case but a card like Oath will not make the format better.

[FoolofaTook]

It's kind of amazing how you spelled out in the very same sentence why putting Tarmogoyf in Oath would be a bad idea and still totally missed it.

Also, please think a bit more about your comparison of Stifle/Nought and Oath/Progenitus.

Not putting Tarmogoyf in a blue deck with a green splash is probably enough of a competitive disadvantage at this point to make the inclusion of almost anything else in its stead indefensible. If you wanted to throw 4x Oath of Druids in instead to make sure you got your combo you'd be breaking even at best if the replacement was 1 for 1 with OoD replacing goyf in the deck.

If the argument is that a slower deck with OoD and blue control would be superior to the currently existing slower control decks, e.g. Landstill, I don't know that I think that would clearly be true. Elspeth makes the Landstill deck pretty ferocious at this point and having her x2 coming out for OoD and Progenitus wouldn't make me see a clear win for them.

Stifle/Nought has advantages that OoD/Progenitus does not. It's faster for one thing. Stifle has very significant value outside of the main combo. The combo is not Spell Snare-able, basically removing something like a quarter to a third of the counterspells used in the meta from consideration. Chump-blocking a nought just doesn't work.

I guess it's dimly conceivable that putting OoD's into a deck to enable the Prgenitus combo would be an improvement over the mechanisms that blue currently has in place to kill the opponent, however I don't see it. I'd much rather face a deck with 4x OoD and 1x Progenitus than a deck with 4x Tarmogoyf and another powerful card as the fifth in the suite.

[DragoFireheart]

If the argument is that a slower deck with OoD and blue control would be superior to the currently existing slower control decks, e.g. Landstill, I don't know that I think that would clearly be true. Elspeth makes the Landstill deck pretty ferocious at this point and having her x2 coming out for OoD and Progenitus wouldn't make me see a clear win for them.




What's to stop a Landstill shell from adopting Progenitus-Oath combo?

Hell, Landstill can even safely wrath/disk away a Progenitus since it will just go back to the Library. They also don't have to worry about it getting hit with StP either.

[FoolofaTook]

The thing about Oath is that it's power is contain and only needs 5 cards: 4 oath and a creature of your choice (Progenitus most likely, maybe some other beater). The thing is, the combo is so small that you can literally fill the rest of your deck with disruption so that it WILL come out. Oh, and decks that are creatureless are not an issue: say hello to Forbidden Orchard for me, will ya?

We already have decks filled with disruption that dominate based on that and win through inevitability. Landstill basically wins a huge percentage of games in which they have have not been beaten by turn 5 or so. Dreadstill wins those games and also can win on turn 2 off of a nuts draw in several different ways.

You need to make Progenitus combo better than those in terms of speed and inevitability in order to make the case that a combo with Oath of Druids would be clearly broken.

Landstill has the inevitability edge and Dreadstill has the speed edge and you can argue that both are competitive with your theoretical deck in the other side of the equation also.

[FoolofaTook]

What's to stop a Landstill shell from adopting Progenitus-Oath shell?

What about the combo would make Landstill better if they chose to do so? The options they have now are pretty ferocious and very effective. You need to make the case that adding 4x Oath and 1x Progenitus would make them more so and given the prevalence of Spell Snare and Krosan Grip in the meta I just don't see it.

By the time you get to the point in the game that Oath/Progenitus is really scary a good Landstill player has either won or lost already, winning most of the time.

[DragoFireheart]

What about the combo would make Landstill better if they chose to do so? The options they have now are pretty ferocious and very effective. You need to make the case that adding 4x Oath and 1x Progenitus would make them more so and given the prevalence of Spell Snare and Krosan Grip in the meta I just don't see it.

By the time you get to the point in the game that Oath/Progenitus is really scary a good Landstill player has either won or lost already, winning most of the time.

I that you keep saying "GRIP! SNARE!" but that can be applied to any 2Cmc spell or artifact/enchantment. That's like saying Goyf is a bad beater because it dies to Terror. You're going to need a better argument than that, since PD can also die to Grip or countermagic (and a lot more things than Progenitus/Oath). Humility can die to Grip or countermagic. Many things die to counter magic and Grip.

Here are some reasons why Pro/Oath is far superior to PD/Stifle.

- Oath doesn't open the window for 2-for-1

- Targeted creature removal and artifact removal have no effect on the Pro/Oath combo.

- Oath doesn't need (or want) Progenitus in hand.

- If Progenitus is somehow killed, Oath can get him AGAIN.

- You can't bounce Progenitus with targeted bounce spells.

- There is no chance of actually blocking Progenitus to survive another turn: it will deal 10 damage as it can not be blocked.

- Pro/Oath is a more favorable splash. You can splash blue for PD/Stifle, but it's generally weaker. On the other hand, splashing for Pro/Oath gets you Grip and other green tools.

[undone]

See people forget that pro is NOT the only insane target for the card, there are many (see sundering titan and sweeper creatures) problematic creatures with it, infact ancestors chosen is NUTS vs the aggro decks you claim its bad against (Which I disagree on.)

Oath is insane, the fact that a vintage deck was based around it should be proof enough of this.

[tivadar]

It's as simple as this: Oath + Progenitus is a 1 card combo, Stifle + Nought is a 2 card combo. OP >> SN. Not to mention everything Drago said above. Nought is even more susceptible because:
* It's an artifact
* It's targettable
* It only costs 1 mana

[Koby]

Oath is a bad idea to introduce. Sure, most people will go with the traditional Maher Oath style deck to get out Progenitus and beatface for 2 turns.

But the more clever among us will realise that there are creatures in magic that provide much better utility if we don't actually have to hard-cast them. Sundering Titan comes to mind, as well as Tidespout Tyrant, Realm Razor (if you're feeling gutsy). Why limit yourself to a 3 turn (4 really, cast Oath:1, Activate:2, Attack:3, Attack:4) kill when you can design the deck to win or dominate the game right now?

[DragoFireheart]

Oath is a bad idea to introduce. Sure, most people will go with the traditional Maher Oath style deck to get out Progenitus and beatface for 2 turns.

But the more clever among us will realise that there are creatures in magic that provide much better utility if we don't actually have to hard-cast them. Sundering Titan comes to mind, as well as Tidespout Tyrant, Realm Razor (if you're feeling gutsy). Why limit yourself to a 3 turn (4 really, cast Oath:1, Activate:2, Attack:3, Attack:4) kill when you can design the deck to win or dominate the game right now?

There's this as well. Oath can used and abused to drop other nasty creatures

[Otter]

Oath is a wildly stupid card. People currently have decklists that involve 10-15 green creatures and 3-4 Natural Orders just so that they can get a Progenitus into play. It's at least decently difficult to work that into a blue shell -- once you've added Ponder, Brainstorm, Force, and Daze or Spell Snare, you're nearly used up your deck space. Oath is five deck slots to get Progenitus into play and the rest of your deck is completely ready to be filled with the best of blue. But why stop at blue? The only land that you're locked into adds any color of mana, between that and your regular fetches/duals, you're free to dip into any color you want for practically any spell you want.

It's not just the rest of your deck that is wide open, the Oath parts are as well. Natural Order has no other useful targets than Progenitus (okay maaaaaaaaaybe Woodfall Primus or something, but seriously), Oath can just play any creature that suits their fancy. Ancestor's Chosen for absurd life? Sure. Akroma/Hellkite for fast beatdown? Sure. Tidespout Tyrant to wipe their board? Sure. Something weird like Realm Razer or Kederekt Leviathan because it fits your metagame? Go for it!

There's too much freedom to abuse the card and the printing of Orchard even lets you trigger it yourself. The metagame would degenerate into Oath and anti-Oath extremely quickly.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Land Tax is terrible, unplayable trash. I know this from personal experience.

Oath of Druids was crap in 1.5... but that was before Forbidden Orchard and Progenitus. I think it's too powerful now. At any rate, we should clear the list of the less problematic cards before even thinking about trying Oath.

Entomb is fine. I hear people call Entomb a tutor and say it's busted all the time, but they can never really provide examples of super broken plays beyond first turn Golgari Grave-Troll. Which is a great play for a deck that already has lots of ways to dump it's library fast and still loses hardcore to Crypt.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oath is a bad idea to introduce. Sure, most people will go with the traditional Maher Oath style deck to get out Progenitus and beatface for 2 turns.

But the more clever among us will realise that there are creatures in magic that provide much better utility if we don't actually have to hard-cast them. Sundering Titan comes to mind, as well as Tidespout Tyrant, Realm Razor (if you're feeling gutsy). Why limit yourself to a 3 turn (4 really, cast Oath:1, Activate:2, Attack:3, Attack:4) kill when you can design the deck to win or dominate the game right now?

Because unreliable tricks are worse than reliably killing someone right now.

If I wanted anything over Progenitus (which is never hard cast, so I don't know why you tried to bring that up), it'd be Empyrial Archangel.

[tivadar]

Entomb doesn't seem to be that big of a problem to me either. Sure, maybe if reanimator was already big in the format or Ichorid was DTB. But it's not.

As for Land Tax, I think you might find it has its places once some deck design is done around it. But by no means does it break anything.

[TheRock]

Oath is a nasty card to bring back to Legacy. It takes up less real estate to work with, is a lot less disruptable, and is faster than Aluren and Solidarity, wins much faster than the current Threshold kill package, and can run almost everything a blue-based control shell can run. It doesn't matter if Progenitus exists or not - hell, you can ban every creature with a CMC of 6 or higher and it's still WAY too good.

Before Gush was re-restricted, almost every deck in the format ran the exact same 20 cards (Brainstorm, Ponder, Force, Scroll, Gush). If you weren't blue, you probably sucked. Period. Oath would force Legacy to follow a similar pattern of Oath or anti-Oath.

I would rather unrestrict Time Walk or print a 5/5 for W - at least there would be SOME diversity left.

[Otter]

Because unreliable tricks are worse than reliably killing someone right now.

If I wanted anything over Progenitus (which is never hard cast, so I don't know why you tried to bring that up), it'd be Empyrial Archangel.

I agree that the techy, fun stuff is worse than Progenitus in most situations, but it's still important to note how crazily versatile of a gameplan Oath can run. For instance, the Natural Order/Prog decks and all of their variations are always going to be weak to Perish, Hibernation, CoP: Green, or even just combo strategies that interact on a level above Progenitus. Oath doesn't have that problem, if someone does board in Perishes you can flatten their face with Inkwell or Akroma. If they're playing Storm you can Oath up Platinum or something. Even though those things are usually worse than Progenitus, just 2-3 sideboard slots of different Oath targets can completely change the angle that you're attacking from. That, combined with the ability to dump it in a blue countertop shell makes it sound like a deck that's very hard to hate.

[Anusien]

Is Entomb better or worse than Gamble in Aggro Loam? Worse, right?

[emidln]

Is Entomb better or worse than Gamble in Aggro Loam? Worse, right?

Worse in red builds I think. Gamble gives you the chance of putting LFTL in your hand letting you maybe use it this turn. Entomb would get you closer to play GBw Aggro Loam though. Without knowing a lot about the reasons for playing red over white and/or black, is Gamble the actual card you're gaining? I've seen lists with Burning Wish, Devastating Dreams, and Countryside Crusher all figuring prominently so I'm not sure that Gamble is even the point in that color (although obviously nice).

[jimirynk]

I say unbanned the dumb shit before doing something as stupid as banning top.

[Otter]

Is Entomb better or worse than Gamble in Aggro Loam? Worse, right?

To be honest, I haven't really seen much Gamble in Aggro Loam, mostly just 43lands. In that deck I'd definitely take Gamble, as you can't get a Manabond or Exploration with Entomb. It's probably the same in Aggro Loam if you chose to run it, you can't Entomb up your Burning Wish or Devastating Dreams. Of course, Entomb is a great card and I could easily see decklists being revamped to make good use of it. But just as a strict-substitution type of thing, I don't think it's very impressive.

[chokin]

I pose a question for everyone: If you could unban some stuff for Legacy, what would you unban?

Personally, I think that combo has been lacking power. Looking at the DTB lists, I see CounterTop, TempoThresh, Landstill, Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo and ANT. A single combo deck that I expect to fall off from the DTB section. Let's face it...combo needs some love.

I've been going over the B&R List for Legacy and after some thinking and having the dream hypothetical situation of unbanning a card.

Although it's a niche card that would only go in 2 decks, I'd pick Frantic Search. I know I'm not the only player who misses Solidarity. I'm about 99% positive that it wouldn't be played in aggro. And I'm pretty sure control has better cards to run. Black based storm decks have Ad Nausem and would most likely avoid FS because of it's 3cc. But Spring Tide and Solidarity might make a comeback if it was unbanned.

It's not like I'm asking for anything insanely powerful like Goblin Recruiter or Oath of Druids. Just a card that fills a small niche to potentially resurrect an old favorite of mine :P

[DrJones]

Banning Top would help combo more than unbanning any card that is unplayable right now because of the Counterbalance + Top combo. The mere fact of unbanning something is because it no longer can affect significatively this meta.

That card was just the final nail on the coffin.

[Carabas]

Top has legitimate uses outside of counterbalance/top. It's used in control decks, like landstill or Quinn as a way of digging for answers. It's used in some combo decks, like Doomsday, as both a setup tool and a combo engine.

These uses of top aren't breaking the format, they even allow more deck diversity. Most of the complaints against top are aimed at the counterbalance lock.

Counterbalance doesn't really have any legitimate uses outside of CB/top. It wouldn't be used if top were banned. Banning top would be like banning two cards, and would hurt some decks that are using top in a fair manner. Banning counterbalance, on the other hand... That'd solve the CB lock problem, and it would leave the deck variety that top creates.

If CB/Top needs to be banned, take out Counterbalance, but please leave the top.

[Brushwagg]

Well the reason Top got the axe in Extended was to "speed up the game". If Top does get the axe in Legacy though, then combo will get a huge boost.

As far as something coming off the List, I would love to see Dream Halls. I have a hard on for that card.

[johanessen]

Top has legitimate uses outside of counterbalance/top. It's used in control decks, like landstill or Quinn as a way of digging for answers. It's used in some combo decks, like Doomsday, as both a setup tool and a combo engine.

These uses of top aren't breaking the format, they even allow more deck diversity. Most of the complaints against top are aimed at the counterbalance lock.

Counterbalance doesn't really have any legitimate uses outside of CB/top. It wouldn't be used if top were banned. Banning top would be like banning two cards, and would hurt some decks that are using top in a fair manner. Banning counterbalance, on the other hand... That'd solve the CB lock problem, and it would leave the deck variety that top creates.

If CB/Top needs to be banned, take out Counterbalance, but please leave the top.

Most of the reasons people give to ban top are not for the cb lock as far i am concerned. It's mainly because it slows games too much

[overseer1234]

Top has legitimate uses outside of counterbalance/top. It's used in control decks, like landstill or Quinn as a way of digging for answers. It's used in some combo decks, like Doomsday, as both a setup tool and a combo engine.

These uses of top aren't breaking the format, they even allow more deck diversity. Most of the complaints against top are aimed at the counterbalance lock.

Counterbalance doesn't really have any legitimate uses outside of CB/top. It wouldn't be used if top were banned. Banning top would be like banning two cards, and would hurt some decks that are using top in a fair manner. Banning counterbalance, on the other hand... That'd solve the CB lock problem, and it would leave the deck variety that top creates.

If CB/Top needs to be banned, take out Counterbalance, but please leave the top.

Finally someone who get it....

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Most of the reasons people give to ban top are not for the cb lock as far i am concerned. It's mainly because it slows games too much

Those reasons are bullshit. If you wanted to speed up the game you'd ask them to ban fetchlands.

[johanessen]

Those reasons are bullshit. If you wanted to speed up the game you'd ask them to ban fetchlands.

A single top slows more the game than a full set of fetchlands. And those reasons are not bullshit: see the ban in Extended, or Sharazad.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A single top slows more the game than a full set of fetchlands.

It takes three seconds to look at the top three cards of your library, but thirty to find a card and thoroughly randomize it.


And those reasons are not bullshit: see the ban in Extended, or Sharazad.

I'm wondering why you think those are examples of not-bullshit.

See;

Wrath of God, Counterspell, Smokestack, every control spell ever.

[irrelevant]

A single top slows more the game than a full set of fetchlands. And those reasons are not bullshit: see the ban in Extended, or Sharazad.

really? I've never gone to time playing CB top in any tournament. Maybe people need to call a judge to watch for slow play. There is no reason top slows down the game. If you know your deck and understand the lines of play it should take a few seconds to set up your library. Speeding up the game is an illegitimate reason to ban top.

[undone]

Top is the strongest card quality card in the format. All decks can play it, which means you either play 4, play a deck that beats decks playing Tops (ichorid/White stax) or you are at a huge disadvantage to resolved tops (tempo/landstill/merfolk)

People dont really see how gamebreaking the card is because its a consistent small innocious advantage past the first turn.

[johanessen]

really? I've never gone to time playing CB top in any tournament. Maybe people need to call a judge to watch for slow play. There is no reason top slows down the game. If you know your deck and understand the lines of play it should take a few seconds to set up your library. Speeding up the game is an illegitimate reason to ban top.


Again, we are not talking about cb, we are talking about TOP.

[Digital Devil]

Blame on Counterbalance. There are still Chalice/Trinisphere/Force/Stifle to keep combo in check. But nothing to keep in check aggro/control. Oh, well, Krosan Grip. But when your opponent continues to flip Shackles/his own Grips/Trinket Mages, then you'll see how Counterbalance is annoying. They say Stompy decks beat Counterbalance. Well, T1 Top, if it escapes Chalice, and T2 Counterbalance, if it hits the field, can and will shut down a deck, regardless of its curve. I once lost a game because my opponent just kept a 3cmc on top of his deck, then rearranged it to second from the top, drew the card in his turn, and pretty much countered everything I proposed. Blood Moon? Flips Shackles. Dragon? Flips Sower. Slogger? It hasn't a FoW in the top3, but has one in hand. See, if anything goes through Counter/Top, there is still conventional countermagic to deal with. Leave the top, take the Counterbalance. Yes, I'm whining, because I actually think it's not helpful for the format. There are still EE/Chalice/Deed which help avoiding fast aggro to become rampant, and the combo winter is just a thing some guy said because he still wanted to play Counterbalance. You can say, "then play your own Counterbalance". This is design constraint. I want to play the deck I like, which is Dragon Stompy, without having to worry about some :u::u: enchantment. I'm not saying "hell I want to play my 40 relentless-rats-and-20 swamps.deck". Fuck, Dragon Stompy. It is possible that if I don't draw my Chalices or they get countered, I am defeated by a single, dumb card? And I play a deck with a high curve. Imagine what Zoo players do think about this...

P.S. Nothing actually needs to be banned, but I would be happy seeing that card gone. Keep the top, take the Cbalance. Even if it is detrimental for the format, I hope my wishes can become true.
P.P.S. I know they banned nothing 3 months ago, so nothing will change this time...

EDIT: atm Tarmogoyf is in 2nd place. Didn't they say they won't ban vanilla creatures or am I wrong?

[sco0ter]

Aren't the changes, if any, not until 20th September? Not the 1st anymore...
I thought they changed it!?

[DrJones]

The announcement is still 1st, even though the changes aren't valid until the 20th.

[luma]

The announcement is still 1st, even though the changes aren't valid until the 20th.

I thought the announcement will be on the 20th, and effective on October 1st: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/15a

[DrJones]

Ack! I tried to find that article, but the "Search Wizards" function wasn't working. What a boner! (in the non-freudian sense)

[Omega]

according to the link luma gave...

Announcement Date Effective Date
December 20 January 1
March 20 April 1
June 20 July 1
September 20 October 1

[ultimoman]

I'd like to see Counterbalance or Goyf banned for various reasons that have been mentioned, but it probably won't happen for whatever reason. Between the 2, I'd hope for Goyf since I think it'd be better for the format.

[Bardo]

I pretty much loathe B/R discussions (except to say that Land Tax should be removed every year or so), and the list we have to choose from in this thread is the reason why.

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order

Are you freaking kidding me? Force of Will? Goblin Lackey? Dreadnought? Someone is making a joke at this site's expense.

The format is in a really good place. The DtB (as an indicator of what's successful in competitive Legacy) is diverse and healthy.

[DTW] UW(x) Landstill ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] Zoo ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] Merfolk ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] CounterTop ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] Vial Goblins ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] Tempo Thresh

You've got slow board control (Landstill), fast creatures/burn aggro (zoo), combo (Tendrils), tribal aggro-control (Merfolk and Golbins) and assorted mid-range decks (CT and Thresh). Most formats would envy a format this rich in viable archetypes.

So, what the fuck are you all bitching about? Legacy is in excellent shape right now.

The card pool is so deep that if any thing gets too out of control (barring something utterly degenerate, e.g. Flash), the metagame can adapt. And nothing is so overpowering that the DCI should take any action. And if they shouldn't do anything, it would be stupid if they did (except to unban Land Tax, etc.).

[FoolofaTook]

4 out of the 7 DTB/DTW are blue-based using permission as a substantial part of the gameplan. That's not a healthy meta.

[(nameless one)]

I don't mind seeing Land Tax getting unbanned

[Bardo]

4 out of the 7 DTB/DTW are blue-based using permission as a substantial part of the gameplan.

"Blue-based using permission" is not an archetype.

Do you honestly believe that Legacy is currently unhealthy and that the powers of the DCI should be used to make things more "healthy" (i.e. the metagame is so irreparable that it can't adjust on its own)?

About the list above, all formats have power cards. The fact that cards are powerful and are played often is not a bad thing in itself. If cards are degenerate (do too much for too little) or enable degenerate strategies that make Legacy "unfun" (as perceived by a reasonable majority of the player-base), then the DCI should do their thing. I don't see any of these things being true.

[socialite]

I pretty much loathe B/R discussions (except to say that Land Tax should be removed every year or so), and the list we have to choose from in this thread is the reason why.

Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order

Are you freaking kidding me? Force of Will? Goblin Lackey? Dreadnought? Someone is making a joke at this site's expense.

The format is in a really good place. The DtB (as an indicator of what's successful in competitive Legacy) is diverse and healthy.

[DTW] UW(x) Landstill ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTW] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] Zoo ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] Merfolk ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] CounterTop ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] Vial Goblins ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
[DTB] Tempo Thresh

You've got slow board control (Landstill), fast creatures/burn aggro (zoo), combo (Tendrils), tribal aggro-control (Merfolk and Golbins) and assorted mid-range decks (CT and Thresh). Most formats would envy a format this rich in viable archetypes.

So, what the fuck are you all bitching about? Legacy is in excellent shape right now.

The card pool is so deep that if any thing gets too out of control (barring something utterly degenerate, e.g. Flash), the metagame can adapt. And nothing is so overpowering that the DCI should take any action. And if they shouldn't do anything, it would be stupid if they did (except to unban Land Tax, etc.).


+PI

This thread is bad please close it.

[FoolofaTook]

"Blue-based using permission" is not an archetype.

And yet 4 of the 7 best decks in the format right now use blue-based permission as the basis of the deck without which the other game plans would not work.



Do you honestly believe that Legacy is currently unhealthy and that the powers of the DCI should be used to make things more "healthy" (i.e. the metagame is so irreparable that it can't adjust on its own)?

Yes, I believe the meta is currently unhealthy, with many concepts - including a few strong ones, like Storm Combo - largely suppressed by the level of blue-based permission that is in the meta. The meta right now comes down to about a half dozen basic concepts at the top.

1. Fast Aggro Control - Tempo Threshold, Dreadstill, Merfolk
2. Slower Control - CounterTop, Landstill
3. Tribal w/o permission - Goblins, Elves
4. Fast Aggro - Zoo, Goyf Sligh
5. Storm Combo - ANT, TES, FT
6. Aggro Combo w/o permission - Aggro Loam, Ichorid

You should have a fairly normal distribution of results between the 6 categories in a healthy meta. Basically maybe a third of the meta should be permission based and then a third should be fast aggro w/o permission and then the final third should be combo decks trying to hit a win state early on and win that way.

What we actually have though is a meta in which the results skew heavily to the top 2 categories with a strong deck in each of the other categories that can force its way into the DTB/DTW but doesn't tend to live there, usually because it is suppressed by the permission decks that predominate.

It's not healthy to have a meta in which a bunch of blue-based decks are always around at the end if they're played. You can't even blame Counterbalance and SDT for the imbalance because some of the strong blue decks don't play them at all. It's the overall effect that cheap permission creates that allows blue to maintain dominance.

[Jade]

Legacy is a healthy format as it is. I'd love to see Top on the banned list, because I think the prevalence of CounterTop (in conjunction with this unbelievable beast called Goyf) is holding many decks at bay at the moment, but thats what Goblin Lackey did before too. From a Powerlevel perspecitve, Top's fine.

My only 'real' arguments against Top are 1) time issues and 2) unfun-factor (hey as long as land tax is banned, this IS argument for banning cards!)

All in all:
They ban nothing: Hooray!
They ban Top: Hooray!
They unban Dream Halls: Who cares... Hooray!
They unban Anaba Grunt: I quit.

[TheCramp]

Basically maybe a third of the meta should be permission based and then a third should be fast aggro w/o permission and then the final third should be combo decks trying to hit a win state early on and win that way.

Why? Why should a third of my match ups be combo? this is all based on the idea of some "healthy Meta..." When have these so called healthy metas ever existed? What era? what block? hasn't happened.

[Otter]

I completely agree that this is the one of the healthiest metas that magic has ever seen, possibly excluding the extended season right before the rotation of Temptest/Saga/Masques. That was a beautiful format in which all sorts of crazy decks were winning and you could really make just about anything you wanted and have a chance. Legacy is a little bit more punishing than that, but it has a great rock-paper-scissiors sort of thing going on in a lot of areas:

You can play all of the game's most efficient cards, but then you're weak to Chalice and Counterbalance. Even with all the best cards in the pool, there is a decided risk that you accept by trying to play all of them.

You can play as many colors as you want with Fetches + Duals but you have to make legitimate compromises to do it, as Waste/Stifles/Moons can ruin your day. The guy running a manabase of 18 Mountains, 4 Wastes can't play anything but red, but he sure gets compensated for it by how many games he doesn't have to lose to his manabase.

There are amazing cards for nearly every archetype, for every Moat & Elspeth, there's a Wild Nacatal and Price of Progress. Wizards isn't slacking on printing the playables for Legacy either, even mistakes like Tarmogoyf aside, we get a good couple of really playable cards from every set. Even the decks that are behind at the moment (Enchantress, Affinity) could easily make a comeback if they got tossed a card or two at the level of Argothian Enchantress and Master of Etherium/Cranial Plating.

Sure it's not a "perfect" format, I wish I could break out my Astral Slides again, but the sheer number of decks that are viable or close to viable is huge. This format is sexy.

[MMogg]

Wizards isn't slacking on printing the playables for Legacy either, even mistakes like Tarmogoyf aside, we get a good couple of really playable cards from every set. Even the decks that are behind at the moment (Enchantress, Affinity) could easily make a comeback if they got tossed a card or two at the level of Argothian Enchantress and Master of Etherium/Cranial Plating.

Indeed, I remember Wizards saying (in about 2003) no more Merfolk, and now, Legacy Merfolk are all recently created cards with the exception of Lord of Atlantis. Eternal it may be, but Legacy is constantly evolving.

[DrJones]

When the top deck in the format is a blue deck designed to beat other blue decks, I wouldn't call it healthy. It's healthier than all the other formats, though.

[morgan_coke]

@Otter,

If you look in the N&D forum, you'll find the Astral Slide thread. That particular list currently has a 10-2 record in large tournaments with one T8 win.

EDIT: Slide thread linky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10626)

I consider any format where Astral Slide (or substitute whatever your personal pet deck is) can be tuned into a deck with at least a decent chance of beating the top tier decks to be an extremely healthy format.

As it currently stands, Legacy is such a format.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Indeed. The wide range of playable decks is incredible. And the insinuation that the format is unhealthy because storm combo doesn't comprise a sixth of the metagame? I can only assume that was an attempt to troll us all. At GP Chicago I didn't see two of the same deck on the other side of the table all day (although I did play one mirror match). Legacy is doing just fine.

[Omega]

Omega threatening the world :
I swear if Top or CB gets the banned, I'm going to be a combo player because normal countermagic can't stop me!

But back on subject, even decks like POX can beat "powerful" blue deck. Alot of decks are powerful enough to beat the metagamed Aggro-control and control. (T2, extended.decks for example). What beats those decks are combo deck. No combo deck, and the format is entirely aggro and aggro-control, everything become possible.

[beastman]

It takes a very competent pilot to run a countertop deck effectively. If either gets banned, those good players will turn to another deck, and most likely, we'll just have another thread like this screaming that LED is broken and ruining the format.

[tivadar]

Top getting banned isn't the end of the world. There's a reason they printed Chalice and Force of Will :-P. Combo's always had a decent foothold, but it's never really dominated the format. Solidarity came the closest, I'd say, and even it still had a lot of competition. Not to mention it was hard as fudge to play.

EDIT: My subconscious is repressing hulk flash

[FoolofaTook]

Why? Why should a third of my match ups be combo? this is all based on the idea of some "healthy Meta..." When have these so called healthy metas ever existed? What era? what block? hasn't happened.

Why should half of your matchups be aggro-control or control? That is the meta we live in at this point and nobody seems to blink an eye at the certainty that they'll face 3 blue decks in 6 rounds and another 1 or 2 in the top 8 if they get there.

This BTW was true in the single meta also with two exceptions: right at the beginning when Fastbond combo was rampant and about a year later when Balance did the same.

When you played in a single elimination tourney you got 3 random rounds at the start and then every other round to the end was a blue deck. In fact after Weissman won I would go two or three straight rounds at the end looking at clones of his deck.

[Jak]

Are they updating this at midnight (PT)? I always thought they did it at 9 PT or something.

[Jade]

Are they updating this at midnight (PT)? I always thought they did it at 9 PT or something.

I'm wondering too. all lists (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/resources/banned) got the "updated august 31 2009", however they're lacking an official announcement or something...

[Aggro_zombies]

So who wants to bet on how badly Wizards fucks with Vintage this time around?

Also, probably no change for Legacy.

[Jade]

So who wants to bet on how badly Wizards fucks with Vintage this time around?

Also, probably no change for Legacy.

I guess they'll restrict Divination and everything above in Powerlevel this time :laugh:

I'm still secretly hoping for a SDT-ban

[MMogg]

I guess they'll restrict Divination and everything above in Powerlevel this time :laugh:

I'm still secretly hoping for a SDT-ban

It's funny, ever since I've been a player I look forward to the b/r announcements hoping for some kind of change, just to keep things new and interesting. Maybe I'm alone in that, but I love when they tamper with the lists, even if it pisses me off for a while, at least it gives me something to focus on. Maybe it's because players all get this build up of nervous tension as it approaches and then when the list contains no changes, it's kind of anti-climactic.

[AngryTroll]

Are they updating this at midnight (PT)? I always thought they did it at 9 PT or something.

Wizards updates everything around midnight, Pacific Time. Star City updates at midnight their time (so, 9pm Pacific). However, it's now morning, and I don't see any changes to Legacy or Vintage, and no announcement. I feel like even if there was no change, it say that it was updated today instead of a few months ago.

[Tinefol]

Announcements on B/R lists are made on 20th.

[sligh16]

Announcements on B/R lists are made on 20th.

:laugh: :laugh:

Too much speculation!

[Jade]

Announcements on B/R lists are made on 20th.

Seems like I totally messed them up then. Thought they were announced on 1st and come into effect on 20th.

Wait... that means more time to speculate, nice!

[Happy Gilmore]

All I know is that when it does change, or if there are no changes, there will be a post of some sort. So I'm not sure when, but probably some time soon.

[Shawon]

Announcements on B/R lists are made on 20th.

Blue balls... :cry:

[DragoFireheart]

Blue balls... :cry:


Umm, I doubt anyone gets off on waiting for B/R announcements...

[tivadar]

Umm, I doubt anyone gets off on waiting for B/R announcements...

Apparently not if they're blue balled...

[P.S.]

The Wizards page says "Updated August 31, 2009." So I'm guessing nothing was changed.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/resources/banned

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Wizards also says that Sealed is played with a tournament pack and three boosters, they don't know what 'updating the archives' is.

[beastman]

Apparently not if they're blue balled...

Zing!!!

Oh yeah, I hope they are announcing multiple GP's. I need something to look forward to.

[Happy Gilmore]

Can anyone confirm that the update has passed? Or are we still waiting for something?

[workingdude]

Can anyone confirm that the update has passed? Or are we still waiting for something?

Read the posts and you will find that the update will be announced on September 20th.

[Happy Gilmore]

Read the posts and you will find that the update will be announced on September 20th.

I think some of the wizards employees are getting mixed messages, they indicated the 20th of july saying that it has passed, but I know that's not correct for sure. Sept 20 makes sense though.

[Leftconsin]

There was a rules update for Planechase, which includes new wording on Illusionary Mask. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/54b&page=2 The new wording is very weak power wise compared to the old one because you now have to pay colors and the creature spell can be countered. This new version can probably come off the ban list.

[whienot]

For reference:

New wording
{oX}: You may choose a creature card in your hand whose mana cost could be paid by some amount of, or all of, the mana you spent on {oX}. If you do, you may cast that card face down as a 2/2 creature spell without paying its mana cost. If the creature that spell becomes as it resolves has not been turned face up and would assign or deal damage, be dealt damage, or become tapped, instead it’s turned face up and assigns or deals damage, is dealt damage, or becomes tapped. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

Thanks for clearing that up wizards....

[PunkRocker1134]

There was a rules update for Planechase, which includes new wording on Illusionary Mask. http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/54b&page=2 The new wording is very weak power wise compared to the old one because you now have to pay colors and the creature spell can be countered. This new version can probably come off the ban list.

Didn't wizards say it was banned for monetary reasons as well?

[Bardo]

This is sort of a myth. Wizards has never said that "card x" is banned because it costs too much.

See this article:
http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af30

The relevant quote: "We tried to strike the fine balance between accessibility and, well, balance of play." They never explicitly mention card $$ anywhere (to my knowledge).

[workingdude]

Tabernacle can now be build around with indestructibles, if that appeals to anyone. This kills the flavor of magus of the tabernacle though.

I remember playing knight of the holy nimbus once against a tabernacle, so I guess this stuff is somewhat relevant?

[Manhattan]

Tabernacle can now be build around with indestructibles, if that appeals to anyone. This kills the flavor of magus of the tabernacle though.

I remember playing knight of the holy nimbus once against a tabernacle, so I guess this stuff is somewhat relevant?

Neither regeneration nor indestructibility do anything against tabernacle, since it's sacrifice and not destroy (and even if, regeneration would still tap your knight of the holy nimbus). You either pay or your creature goes to the bin.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Neither regeneration nor indestructibility do anything against tabernacle, since it's sacrifice and not destroy (and even if, regeneration would still tap your knight of the holy nimbus). You either pay or your creature goes to the bin.

Except for the part where Mr. Gottlieb said in the article that it's going to be a destroy effect now.

[FoolofaTook]

For reference:

New wording
{oX}: You may choose a creature card in your hand whose mana cost could be paid by some amount of, or all of, the mana you spent on {oX}. If you do, you may cast that card face down as a 2/2 creature spell without paying its mana cost. If the creature that spell becomes as it resolves has not been turned face up and would assign or deal damage, be dealt damage, or become tapped, instead it’s turned face up and assigns or deals damage, is dealt damage, or becomes tapped. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

Thanks for clearing that up wizards....

It's not going to come off the banned list for Legacy with that wording. For one thing is still allows you to sneak a Phyrexian Dreadnought into play without sacrificing 12 power worth of creatures. The other thing of course is that anything that requires record-keeping to verify the legality of a play at a later time is just too clunky and likely to cause problems for judges in actual tournament play later. Just try having yourself and your opponent write something down at the same time and then see how reliably it matches a few turns later when it is compared. Life scores being the perfect example, where players are constantly adjusting by a bit here or there because one or the other forgot to record something or recorded it wrong. Judges would have no good way to resolve the situation if one player said he paid appropriate mana costs for the play (and at the time the issue arose had the right mana on the board) and the other said he had not. He says, she says is a judges worst nightmare.

[Koby]

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
"Destroy" on the printed card became "sacrifice" in Oracle.

New wording
All creatures have "At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy this creature unless you pay {o1}."


Note that this is the only "Tabernacle" effect that recieved errata. Both Pendrell Mist and Magus of the Tabernacle are printed with the sacrifice clause, while Tabernacle is printed with destroy.

[Solaran_X]

Didn't wizards say it was banned for monetary reasons as well?
Alpha Illusionary Mask (Banned): $115.99 (MOTL)
Beta Illusionary Mask (Banned): $93.94 (MOTL)
Unlimited Illusionary Mask (Banned): $63.12 (MOTL)
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Legal): $104.31 (MOTL)
Grim Tutor (Legal): $104.67 (MOTL)
Imperial Recruiter (Legal): $140.09 (MOTL)
Juzam Djinn (Legal): $115.03 (MOTL - I threw this one in for fun!)

Cards aren't banned in Legacy over secondary market prices.

[m03]

It's not going to come off the banned list for Legacy with that wording. For one thing is still allows you to sneak a Phyrexian Dreadnought into play without sacrificing 12 power worth of creatures.

Except now Dreadnought can be countered.



The other thing of course is that anything that requires record-keeping to verify the legality of a play at a later time is just too clunky and likely to cause problems for judges in actual tournament play later.

How is that different from any other Morph card.

[FoolofaTook]

Except now Dreadnought can be countered.

Dreadnought could be countered before also. Illusionary Mask wouldn't add counterability to the process, just a permanent way to sneak a dreadnought into play.


How is that different from any other Morph card.

Morph is a fixed cost of :3:. There's no record-keeping involved at all. When you flip a morph over the cost to do so is printed on the card that is revealed and the cost is paid at the moment you do it.

This re-wording of Illusionary Mask would require the player to pay the accurate cost to deploy the card normally plus whatever extra they chose to use to disguise it as an addition. They'd need to note the amount spent at the time they did this to allow for verification that they had deployed the card legally when it was ultimately revealed. The opponent obviously would do the same if they were at all competitive and it is in the comparison of the two recordings that problems would arise, particularly if you got to the point where multiple cards had been deployed face down with the mask and not yet revealed.

[The Wes]

Ok, so can anyone tell me whats going on with Tabernacle? So "destroy" was originally printed on the card, but the new oracle wording is instead "sacrifice". But if thats the case, why is the new wording "At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy this creature unless you pay {o1}." It seems that it contradicts itself.

[majikal]

Ok, so can anyone tell me whats going on with Tabernacle? So "destroy" was originally printed on the card, but the new oracle wording is instead "sacrifice". But if thats the case, why is the new wording "At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy this creature unless you pay {o1}." It seems that it contradicts itself.
No, the new oracle wording changes it back to destroy. It was updated a long time ago to say "sacrifice", and they just now changed it back.

[m03]

Dreadnought could be countered before also. Illusionary Mask wouldn't add counterability to the process, just a permanent way to sneak a dreadnought into play.


Um, no. It did make it uncounterable according to the old wording. It was one of the arguments presented against unbanning it before.


X: You may put a creature card with converted mana cost X or less from your hand onto the battlefield face down as a 0/1 creature. Put X mask counters on that creature. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery. The creature's controller may turn the creature face up any time he or she could cast an instant by removing all mask counters from it. This effect ends if the creature is turned face up.

[MattH]

Morph is a fixed cost of :3:. There's no record-keeping involved at all. When you flip a morph over the cost to do so is printed on the card that is revealed and the cost is paid at the moment you do it.

This re-wording of Illusionary Mask would require the player to pay the accurate cost to deploy the card normally plus whatever extra they chose to use to disguise it as an addition. They'd need to note the amount spent at the time they did this to allow for verification that they had deployed the card legally when it was ultimately revealed. The opponent obviously would do the same if they were at all competitive and it is in the comparison of the two recordings that problems would arise, particularly if you got to the point where multiple cards had been deployed face down with the mask and not yet revealed.
Actually, you're supposed to keep track with morph, too: you're supposed to put counters on the morphs to indicate the order in which they entered play.

It doesn't come up much, but technically it IS what you're supposed to do.

[ParkerLewis]

Actually, you're supposed to keep track with morph, too: you're supposed to put counters on the morphs to indicate the order in which they entered play.

It doesn't come up much, but technically it IS what you're supposed to do.

Not that I don't believe you, but why would that be of any importance ? Are there cards, mechanics or rules that explicitly use the order in which creatures have entered play ? I can't think of any. Could you provide an example (even a far-fetched one, as I guess it will have to be one anyway) were it would be relevant ?

[Nihil Credo]

Not that I don't believe you, but why would that be of any importance ? Are there cards, mechanics or rules that explicitly use the order in which creatures have entered play ? I can't think of any. Could you provide an example (even a far-fetched one, as I guess it will have to be one anyway) were it would be relevant ?
On turn 2, you Eladamri's Call / Wordly Tutor / etc. for a creature card with morph (revealing it to your opponent) and cast it on turn 3. Several turns later, you have an empty hand, the morph is still face-down, then you topdeck and play a second morph. Once you have both in play, it should be public information for obvious reasons which one entered play first and which one later.

[FoolofaTook]

On turn 2, you Eladamri's Call / Wordly Tutor / etc. for a creature card with morph (revealing it to your opponent) and cast it on turn 3. Several turns later, you have an empty hand, the morph is still face-down, then you topdeck and play a second morph. Once you have both in play, it should be public information for obvious reasons which one entered play first and which one later.

Are face down cards normally public information, even if the identity of one of them is known?

I'm just trying to think what about the particular situation that you've just described confers the right for the opposing player to have a facedown card marked or otherwise delineated as opposed to him just having to keep track himself of which is which?

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Are face down cards normally public information, even if the identity of one of them is known?

I'm just trying to think what about the particular situation that you've just described confers the right for the opposing player to have a facedown card marked or otherwise delineated as opposed to him just having to keep track himself of which is which?

by your logic, i can put a face down Birchlore Ranger, then a turn later put a face down Blistering firecat, and through sleight of hand, attack with the face down Firecat, and you'd be none-the-wiser. Hey, wanna play some Magic?:cool:

[FoolofaTook]

by your logic, i can put a face down Birchlore Ranger, then a turn later put a face down Blistering firecat, and through sleight of hand, attack with the face down Firecat, and you'd be none-the-wiser. Hey, wanna play some Magic?:cool:

If your suggestion is that you can blatantly cheat if you choose to do so I guess that's true.

Point take though that facedown cards in play have to be in some way clearly identifiable to prevent blatant cheating.

[ParkerLewis]

On turn 2, you Eladamri's Call / Wordly Tutor / etc. for a creature card with morph (revealing it to your opponent) and cast it on turn 3. Several turns later, you have an empty hand, the morph is still face-down, then you topdeck and play a second morph. Once you have both in play, it should be public information for obvious reasons which one entered play first and which one later.

Thanks.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

If your suggestion is that you can blatantly cheat if you choose to do so I guess that's true.

Point take though that facedown cards in play have to be in some way clearly identifiable to prevent blatant cheating.

its just like keeping track of your opponent's life, if you're not keeping track of it, its your problem if their records show they have more than what you think they should have. Keep track of everything.

[dahcmai]

I'd like to ban Goyf for a different reason than most. It's not broken or so good it needs to go. It's far from broken. It dies to most everything. It's not hard to counter with Spell Snare or CB. It's not untargetable or virtually unstoppable. It doesn't even have trample. A single Bitterblossom can keep it in check forever.

I want it out of the format because it outclasses every creature for it's cost and limits the format to choosing creatures that are within the same range and which there aren't any. Is this creature better than a Goyf? No? Guess we don't use it. That happens entirely too much on deck building.

How many decks is Goyf bad in? Not many. I even had them in a board for a Tendrils deck once. We had a joke about this. Stasis? Yup, Goyf makes Stasis better. That's just funny. How many times have you played against it compared to any other creature? It's easily the most played creature ever now. Kind of sad to think every deck out there is trying to find a way to put in green so it can play it.

I'd like to see a little more choices in deckbuilding than trying to beat out the green king. I'd like to play against something else.

[SomeRandomDude]

I'd like to ban Goyf for a different reason than most. It's not broken or so good it needs to go. It's far from broken. It dies to most everything. It's not hard to counter with Spell Snare or CB. It's not untargetable or virtually unstoppable. It doesn't even have trample. A single Bitterblossom can keep it in check forever.

I want it out of the format because it outclasses every creature for it's cost and limits the format to choosing creatures that are within the same range and which there aren't any. Is this creature better than a Goyf? No? Guess we don't use it. That happens entirely too much on deck building.

How many decks is Goyf bad in? Not many. I even had them in a board for a Tendrils deck once. We had a joke about this. Stasis? Yup, Goyf makes Stasis better. That's just funny. How many times have you played against it compared to any other creature? It's easily the most played creature ever now. Kind of sad to think every deck out there is trying to find a way to put in green so it can play it.

I'd like to see a little more choices in deckbuilding than trying to beat out the green king. I'd like to play against something else.

While I do love my little green gaint, i do 100% agree with this.

Also, I feel that banning top would be a bad move... Where, yes it is unfun to play agains it in CounterTop, it also makes other decks more reliable. I would hate the day where I need to remove them form my G/B/W Control Rock deck... :cry:

[Bastian]

I'd like to ban Goyf for a different reason than most. It's not broken or so good it needs to go. It's far from broken. It dies to most everything. It's not hard to counter with Spell Snare or CB. It's not untargetable or virtually unstoppable. It doesn't even have trample. A single Bitterblossom can keep it in check forever.

I want it out of the format because it outclasses every creature for it's cost and limits the format to choosing creatures that are within the same range and which there aren't any. Is this creature better than a Goyf? No? Guess we don't use it. That happens entirely too much on deck building.

How many decks is Goyf bad in? Not many. I even had them in a board for a Tendrils deck once. We had a joke about this. Stasis? Yup, Goyf makes Stasis better. That's just funny. How many times have you played against it compared to any other creature? It's easily the most played creature ever now. Kind of sad to think every deck out there is trying to find a way to put in green so it can play it.

I'd like to see a little more choices in deckbuilding than trying to beat out the green king. I'd like to play against something else.

I couldn't agree more.

Goyf isn't broken but it seriously warps the format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd like to ban Goyf for a different reason than most. It's not broken or so good it needs to go. It's far from broken. It dies to most everything. It's not hard to counter with Spell Snare or CB. It's not untargetable or virtually unstoppable. It doesn't even have trample. A single Bitterblossom can keep it in check forever.

I want it out of the format because it outclasses every creature for it's cost and limits the format to choosing creatures that are within the same range and which there aren't any. Is this creature better than a Goyf? No? Guess we don't use it. That happens entirely too much on deck building.

How many decks is Goyf bad in? Not many. I even had them in a board for a Tendrils deck once. We had a joke about this. Stasis? Yup, Goyf makes Stasis better. That's just funny. How many times have you played against it compared to any other creature? It's easily the most played creature ever now. Kind of sad to think every deck out there is trying to find a way to put in green so it can play it.

I'd like to see a little more choices in deckbuilding than trying to beat out the green king. I'd like to play against something else.

I could've sworn I said this like a year ago.

But it's still true. Goyf is boring.

[overseer1234]

I'd like to ban Goyf for a different reason than most. It's not broken or so good it needs to go. It's far from broken. It dies to most everything. It's not hard to counter with Spell Snare or CB. It's not untargetable or virtually unstoppable. It doesn't even have trample. A single Bitterblossom can keep it in check forever.

I want it out of the format because it outclasses every creature for it's cost and limits the format to choosing creatures that are within the same range and which there aren't any. Is this creature better than a Goyf? No? Guess we don't use it. That happens entirely too much on deck building.

How many decks is Goyf bad in? Not many. I even had them in a board for a Tendrils deck once. We had a joke about this. Stasis? Yup, Goyf makes Stasis better. That's just funny. How many times have you played against it compared to any other creature? It's easily the most played creature ever now. Kind of sad to think every deck out there is trying to find a way to put in green so it can play it.

I'd like to see a little more choices in deckbuilding than trying to beat out the green king. I'd like to play against something else.

Yep, couldn't agree more. I mean, I like wild mongrel, and other cool stuff to, but why play them over goyf other then budget reasons. It simply makes deckbuilding dumb...
Example's:
We play a countershell, with cantrips, we need a ceap wincondition: Goyf
We need a backupplan for the combo: Goyf
Loam engine, play goyf, it'll also grow fast,
Mono green dumb creatue deck (okay no reason not to play it)
Hmmm mono red needs something for the lategame: Goyf you even get to play krosan grip.
Sui black needs a better beater, play goyf, you know, as big as negator but no drawback,...
(I can keep doing this all day long)

[Shabbaman]

Pfff. I need a counterspell: Force of Will. It's just as boring, and nobody wants to ban FoW.

[eq.firemind]

Goyf must be banned, teared into pieces and burned out from people's mind just for the absoulutely enormous number of dumb threads it created.

Wait, I thought it's Goyf Discussion thread! People, please stop beating your heads in the wall.

Oh, and I guess The Source needs a special thread. Something like "All Tarmogoyf Shittalk Thread".

[hjalte]

Pfff. I need a counterspell: Force of Will. It's just as boring, and nobody wants to ban FoW.

But, you can't splash for Force of Will. You need at least another 12 blue cards, and then you're still low.
Goyf can go in every deck, without any other green cards, and probably make it better.

[BreathWeapon]

But, you can't splash for Force of Will. You need at least another 12 blue cards, and then you're still low.
Goyf can go in every deck, without any other green cards, and probably make it better.

Agree, Force of Will isn't the same as Tarmogoyf, with out Force of Will we'd no longer have a turn 0 answer. A turn 0 answer is format defining, and it's what allows Storm combo to exist (fairly) and thus creates format diversity. Tarmogoyf doesn't really enable a deck, he just pushes every other non-utility 2 drop to the curb. Also, a diversity of creatures is way, way more important than a diversity of counters, you can only design around the cost efficiency of answers for so long until you reach your threshold (STP is case in point).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Pfff. I need a counterspell: Force of Will. It's just as boring, and nobody wants to ban FoW.

Unfortunately for this comparison, Force of Will doesn't obsolete or marginalize every other answer the way that Tarmogoyf obsoletes or marginalizes nearly every other threat. People still play Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Vindicate, Maelstrom Pulse, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, Maze of Ith, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix, Ajani Vengeant, Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, Damnation, Engineered Explosives, Umezawa's Jitte, etc., etc.., without going blue for Force of Will.

While decks play other threats, in nearly every case that's after splashing green for Tarmogoyf and needing to supplement that threat.

If Goyf was Force, it would be heavily played as the best threat, but other decks would run entirely different threat suites to complement their strategy.

But everyone plays Goyf. And most decks that don't, should. It's a fantastic card. Heck, it's even an answer to that stupid Tarmogoyf card we all hate.

[Forbiddian]

Unfortunately for this comparison, Force of Will doesn't obsolete or marginalize every other answer the way that Tarmogoyf obsoletes or marginalizes nearly every other threat.

If Force of Will had been printed in Future Sight (and hadn't been printed in Alliances), it would have shocked the magic world as much or more than Tarmogoyf, and we might be having the same conversation, backward.

Cards like Thwart, 4x Counterspell, 4x Duress, and Unmask would instantly get sidelined because they're no longer needed. And I have no doubt those would be played, if Force of Will didn't exist (although decks like Belcher would probably just dominate).

Force of Will obsoletes a LOT of answers, although it also probably single-handedly prevents the metagame from collapsing. Although it did come first, so I don't think "obsoletes" is the right word.


For a case study: I know a guy playing a UWB control deck (it doesn't suck) that does not run Force of Will. His deck runs cards like Wing Shards, Wrath of God, Vindicate, and a hand disruption suite of like Duress, Gerrard's Verdict.

Most of the answers that he runs I don't think see any play in Legacy, and most of that is because Force of Will is a lot more efficient.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Counterspell and Duress saw play when Force of Will was around. They've been sidelined by newer cards. Just like Troll Ascetic and Wild Mongrel and Exalted Angel sidelined older creatures when they were printed, and have been sidelined themselves since.

However, what has not happened is Counterbalance and Thoughtseize dominating every strategy that wants an answer. But this is exactly what Tarmogoyf has done to every strategy that wants a threat.

[walkerdog]

Talk of banning Goyf seems logical until you step back and remember: Legacy was pretty much not that fun until Goyf came along. Sure, some people loved the fascinating Thresh vs Landstill vs Goblins meta with a few other competitve decks in the mix, but now, for whatever reason, Legacy is this huge format that is fairly healthy and exciting. And it happened right about when Goyf entered the format.

[AngryTroll]

Talk of banning Goyf seems logical until you step back and remember: Legacy was pretty much not that fun until Goyf came along. Sure, some people loved the fascinating Thresh vs Landstill vs Goblins meta with a few other competitve decks in the mix, but now, for whatever reason, Legacy is this huge format that is fairly healthy and exciting. And it happened right about when Goyf entered the format.

It can be difficult to separate correlation and causation. (http://xkcd.com/552/)

[sunshine]

Right now, I'd say The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is the most likely to get the axe. Banning cards for availability and price tag is not unprecedented - in case you haven't checked SCG is buying them for $200 a piece!

Before you get your panties bunched up - I'm not saying that I think it should be banned, just that it is the most bannable from WotC perspective, and solely for availability/price reasons. Also, I realize that buying 4x Tarmogoyf gets you pretty close to the value of a Tabernacle, and the Lhurgoyf is more heavily played - none of those points seem to do much for Illusionary Mask though.

[MMogg]

Right now, I'd say The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is the most likely to get the axe. Banning cards for availability and price tag is not unprecedented - in case you haven't checked SCG is buying them for $200 a piece!

Before you get your panties bunched up - I'm not saying that I think it should be banned, just that it is the most bannable from WotC perspective, and solely for availability/price reasons. Also, I realize that buying 4x Tarmogoyf gets you pretty close to the value of a Tabernacle, and the Lhurgoyf is more heavily played - none of those points seem to do much for Illusionary Mask though.

Actually, at the moment, a playset of goyfs has surpassed the value of a single Tabernacle.

Kind of doubt it though since Tabernacle is not integral to playing the format.

[sunshine]

Actually, at the moment, a playset of goyfs has surpassed the value of a single Tabernacle.

Kind of doubt it though since Tabernacle is not integral to playing the format.

By SCG prices, yes you would pay for a set of Goyfs - I was going by MOTL prices which has a Tabernacle at $218.29 and Goyf at $53.54 at the time of this writing, which does tip the land a little over a set of Lhurgoyfs. Nit picking aside, as it is not really relevant to my point, Tabernacle is the priciest individual card to actually see play in a Tier one deck in a long time.

[MMogg]

By SCG prices, yes you would pay for a set of Goyfs - I was going by MOTL prices which has a Tabernacle at $218.29 and Goyf at $53.54 at the time of this writing, which does tip the land a little over a set of Lhurgoyfs. Nit picking aside, as it is not really relevant to my point, Tabernacle is the priciest individual card to actually see play in a Tier one deck in a long time.

I was going by ebay, actually. MOTL is often slow to update based on ebay as well, so you'll probably see this emerge on MOTL in a week or so.

Yeah and as a 1 of in 1 deck I don't even see it on the ban radar.

[sunshine]

Yeah and as a 1 of in 1 deck I don't even see it on the ban radar.

Perhaps, but I would argue the main reason that deck isn't played more is the cost and availability of Tabernacle.

[Solaran_X]

Price should NEVER be a reason to ban a card, or keep a card banned. Cards should only be banned if they warp a format to the point where it's Deck A versus Deck B designed to beat Deck A. Such as Black Summer, Combo Winter, and Mirrodin Standard.

[MMogg]

Perhaps, but I would argue the main reason that deck isn't played more is the cost and availability of Tabernacle.

I completely agree, and I think decks would probably run 2 if they weren't so expensive. That said, the deck isn't necessary. Decks that run Imperial Recruiter also are unplayable for a vast swath of the Legacy player base.


Price should NEVER be a reason to ban a card, or keep a card banned. Cards should only be banned if they warp a format to the point where it's Deck A versus Deck B designed to beat Deck A. Such as Black Summer, Combo Winter, and Mirrodin Standard.

I'm not sold on this point. If they were to unban Mana Dran, it would shoot up the cost of Drain exponentially as decks would need 4. I'm not a master deck builder, but I imagine the card isn't so broken it would completely warp the format, but I'm sure it's good enough that decks would start to use to the point where blue based control decks would all pack 4. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a format with a staple being over $100. Tarmogoyf is getting bad enough. This is all just personal feeling and not based on anything else.

If you say price should not be a reason to ban or keep a card banned, I think they at least should make sure that cards don't get too expensive. Drain and Tarmogoyf are both re-printable by their own policy. The question is only do they have the balls to reprint them? Luckily at this point the only truly ridiculous staple is Tarmogoyf (IMHO). Considering cost and ubiquitousness/need, he's the most expensive "must have" (as in, the backbone of multiple decks [1/2 of most top 8 finishes]).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Talk of banning Goyf seems logical until you step back and remember: Legacy was pretty much not that fun until Goyf came along. Sure, some people loved the fascinating Thresh vs Landstill vs Goblins meta with a few other competitve decks in the mix, but now, for whatever reason, Legacy is this huge format that is fairly healthy and exciting. And it happened right about when Goyf entered the format.

Not really. The Goblins-Thresh lockup was already starting to break when Coldsnap/Time Spiral were released, bringing in tools for other decks like Counterbalance, Empty the Warrens, Teferi, Academy Ruins. CRET Belcher was the first really stable storm deck in the format, and it annihilated Goblins. We never even got a chance to see Planar Chaos' impact due to the fuck up with Flash, and Future Sight brought in a lot of new cards besides Goyf.

It was inevitable that as other strategies got more and more new toys, the linear strength of Goblins would decline. It's dominance was only ever really an effect of Extended players who wanted to play something familiar; while a good deck, it was never good enough to justify it's numbers and rarely performed better than it's size of the field dictated.

As noted before, this is an almost nonsensical argument anyway- how can Tarmogoyf be a factor in deck diversity when nearly every deck is running Tarmogoyf? If the other 56 cards in Zoo were vastly better to the other 56 cards in Sui or Fish or whatever shell we've slapped on Goyf, they would cancel out the 2 drop both decks are running in equal numbers. Just because every deck can run Black Lotus doesn't suddenly make every deck equal.


Price should NEVER be a reason to ban a card, or keep a card banned. Cards should only be banned if they warp a format to the point where it's Deck A versus Deck B designed to beat Deck A. Such as Black Summer, Combo Winter, and Mirrodin Standard.

Why?

[sunshine]

Price should NEVER be a reason to ban a card, or keep a card banned. Cards should only be banned if they warp a format to the point where it's Deck A versus Deck B designed to beat Deck A. Such as Black Summer, Combo Winter, and Mirrodin Standard.

Regardless of whether or not it should be a reason it has been in the past. Also, you do realize that if a certain deck/card is not played solely due to it's price/availability that "format warping" in itself. Not warping in the same way that something like Flash was - I mean warping in the sense that only people who can afford the deck can play it.

The fact that Tabernacle is essentially played in a single deck makes it even less appealing to buy. Unlike a set of Goyfs which, for better or worse, you at least get to toss into almost any deck after shelling out the cash for them.

[DrJones]

As noted before, this is an almost nonsensical argument anyway- how can Tarmogoyf be a factor in deck diversity when nearly every deck is running Tarmogoyf? If the other 56 cards in Zoo were vastly better to the other 56 cards in Sui or Fish or whatever shell we've slapped on Goyf, they would cancel out the 2 drop both decks are running in equal numbers. Just because every deck can run Black Lotus doesn't suddenly make every deck equal.
Every deck started packing sorceries, instants, enchantments, artifacts and creatures.

Also, non-blue, non-antiblue decks started winning tournaments.

[eq.firemind]

Every deck started packing sorceries, instants, enchantments, artifacts and creatures.
There was a moment when people played Tarfire to make Goyf bigger. But they soon realize how awful was that.
When you make a deckbuilding decision, the logic "it feeds tarmo" affects your choice as much as "it pitches to FoW" argument , i.e. it's the last factor you should look at.


Also, non-blue, non-antiblue decks started winning tournaments.
Can't agree here too...
Some time ago Counter top was so freaking popular that it was almost blue vs antiblue format... With Merfolks being one of the best "antiblue" deck...

[jrsthethird]

I'm relatively new to the format, but from what I've seen nothing needs to be banned. Top is annoying but there are answers (Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, Null Rod). Natural Order/Progenitus is sick but can easily be stopped, Goyf is a broken creature, but he does nothing but attack and block. I know Kird Ape was banned at one point but that was before they had a big grasp on what was really good and what wasn't. Tabernacle is too narrow, and almost every deck runs Wasteland anyway (I know there's Loam, but there's GY hate in every board so that helps).

The point is that every deck in the format has answers, so it's more like a huge game of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock instead of deck X vs. deck anti-X. Remember that Wizards is making a conscientious push to make Legacy a viable format (I don't know if they have any talk about a Legacy Pro Tour or anything but the fact that they do 1 or 2 Legacy GPs every year means that the format is getting attention from Wizards). I think this started a couple years ago, so they might not have considered Legacy when Coldsnap was released (not sure if Top was banned in Extended when CB was released, or after), but they might not have considered protecting CounterTop with Daze and FOW. But recently, they probably test cards for Legacy in the FFL so that is likely a reason why nothing has really broken the format lately.

This could also be a reason why they printed so many good Merfolk and Goblins in Lorwyn; to make Legacy more affordable and competitive with more Standard-ish decks.

[Solaran_X]

Regardless of whether or not it should be a reason it has been in the past. Also, you do realize that if a certain deck/card is not played solely due to it's price/availability that "format warping" in itself. Not warping in the same way that something like Flash was - I mean warping in the sense that only people who can afford the deck can play it.

The fact that Tabernacle is essentially played in a single deck makes it even less appealing to buy. Unlike a set of Goyfs which, for better or worse, you at least get to toss into almost any deck after shelling out the cash for them.
First off, what cards have been banned in the past solely for cost reasons? Provide names and justifications provided by Wizards (they always do an article after a Banned/Restricted announcement saying why).

Second off, Vintage...Legacy...Extended...Standard...anyone can only play the decks they can afford. This is not a new concept unique to Legacy. With $60+ Jace, the Mind Sculptors and $30+ Abyssal Persecutors (just using Worldwake cards), not everyone is going to be playing the Standard decks that may arise and require a playset of them. Every format has decks that are strong, but underplayed because of their content of expensive cards. Vintage is a prime example. Not everyone who plays competitive Vintage even owns Power or Library or Bazaar or Workshop. Instead, they play the non-Powered decks that are designed to beat the Powered decks and level the playing field (exceptions being the proxy tournaments, obviously).

If a deck ever arises in Legacy that abuses Grim Tutor ($126.91 average on MOTL right now) and becomes a top tier competitor...should we ban Grim Tutor to make the format "fair" for the poorer players?

If a deck ever arises in Legacy that abuses Imperial Recruiter ($130.46 average on MOTL right now) and becomes a top tier competitor (this card is already used in Aluren and some Painter builds, also - but they aren't top tier)...should we ban Aluren to make the format "fair" for the poorer players?

Moat ($135.64 average) and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale ($210.54 average) already see some play, and decks that use them both had top finishes in recent SCG$5K opens. Should they be banned to make the format "fair" for the poorer players?

And where do you draw the line on banning based on price? Price>$150/copy? Price>$100/copy? Where? And when the card becomes banned and price tanks (most likely), does the card become unbanned because it is no longer above the banning threshold?

[Oibade]

Wizards does not care about secondary market prices. Never has, never will. Its own interest is selling boosters/products and attendance at the major events.

The reasons behind the banning/restriction of a card usually are:

1. The abuse potential (see Preemptive Bannings like Mind's Desire);
2. The abuse in itself (i.e. Skullclamp);
3. The effective impact on the fun/diversity of the metagame (see Trinisphere @Vintage).

Conspiracy theories should be discouraged: Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is not one of such cards. Even if the fact that it is not abused is directly related to its availability and price in the secondary market.

Although I believe Tarmogoyf does ruin the fun and the deckbuilding options, AND is abused, I'm not sure (Who is?) whether it will someday be banned or not. The same goes for NO/Progenitus: it reminds me of Tinker/Colossus in Vintage, where Tinker already is restricted. I just hope for next B&R session.