Message from Aaron Forsythe to Doug Linn

[SilverGreen]

From his Twitter, about four hours ago:


Someone tell Doug Linn that good things will be happening for Legacy soon.
about 4 hours ago from mobile web

You're welcome, Doug Linn.

****

So, what do you think this can be? Another Legacy GP? A Legacy PT? Discontinuing Standard sanctioned tournaments and replacing them with Legacy ones? :p

[heroicraptor]

SDT gets banned!

[Volt]

Intriguing...

[Peter_Rotten]

I can only imagine the number of "this will be banned/unbanned" posts that message just created.

[beastman]

Probably doug's new mail order boyfriend arrived, and he plays legacy.

[Peter_Rotten]

Nourishing Lich all foil collector's edition?

[SilverGreen]

I can only imagine the number of "this will be banned/unbanned" posts that message just created.For sure it's a crystal clear signal they'll ban Tarmogoyf and unban Land Tax. ;)

[Ciberon]

Nourishing Lich all foil collector's edition?

No. It's From the Vault.

[nitewolf9]

They'll probably be announcing another GP, or some sort of sweet sanctioned Legacy events.

I don't really think this has anything to do with the banned list. Then again, I just might be wrong. Just maybe....

[Valtrix]

Let's stop the confusion and just agree that it's both tournaments and changed the banned list.

[SilverGreen]

Whatever it'll be, it'll be something about this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17931_Legacys_Allure_Dear_Wizards.html

So we'll probably have:

-The GenCon top 8 decklists published in the Mothership;
-The announcing of a Legacy GP (or more than one);
-Some unexpected (or not so) unbanning;
-Some tasty new print run of old hotties;
-A Goyf/CB/Top hoser printed in a soon upcoming set.

Nothing beyond the usual, indeed. In any case, I expect for number one or number three.

[Di]

As exciting and intruiging as a statement that is, that just created a huge fucking headache as far as discussion goes (from a moderative standpoint). Fuck it, bring on all the speculation bullshit now, I imagine we'll have some interesting news sometime in the near future.

[FoolofaTook]

Maybe they've decided to let something other than blue define the format. Right now every thing that happens in Legacy is defined by the blue archetypes in play: you're either playing them or planning specifically ways to beat them. Nobody builds a deck that is DoA against big blue because that deck would have no chance to compete efficiently at high levels.

Many people however build decks, and intend to compete at the top with them, that have other significant holes and bad pairings in general. Wouldn't it be an amazing development for the competition if we got put in a place where people were willing to build decks with significant weakness against blue control because while that was a factor there was no guarantee you'd see that kind of deck at some point in a 6 round tourney and certainly not more than once or twice at the outside?

[heroicraptor]

It's probably just the GenCon lists.

[Otter]

GP Chicago had an absolutely absurd turnout for a Legacy tournament, it's a sure bet that they took notice of it. Wizards is a company and they're not stupid, it doesn't take long to realize that there could be a huge untapped market for them in Legacy. I would honestly not be surprised if this was an entire initiative to (actually) support the format.

[hungryLIKEALION]

In response to Foolofatook's post. I would very much enjoy a format in magic not so defined by blue. I support pretty much everything you said there. I like blue as much as the next guy, but the critical mass of amazing spells blue has gotten (and the retarded splashability of tarmogoyf) compared to other colors is incredibly frustrating for those of us who like to play other kinds of decks.

I think it's a little absurd that blue is the only color that gets to play extremely powerful spells for free without giving up significant resources. That has always annoyed me.

[Leftconsin]

Aren't we a couple months from learning the 2010 GP Schedule? I was first told about GP Chicago by the TO himself in December right around the announce date.

Gencon lists have been up for a few days. I just forget where they are in the pipe maze called Wizards.com.

And how soon is 'soon'? The next B&R update is in a month.

Now my speculation:
-We might be in store for a Legacy PTQ season.
-Enemy fetchlands.
-Green Elemental Blast!
-Chronicles II! Throw out the reserve list! Old duals, Dreadnought, Force of Will, Berserk, and everything else that sees even the slightest play in Legacy worth more than 20 bucks!

[puppektion]

No. It's From the Vault.

From the Vault: Cavius... Oh god. Finally, I can get foil Lich and Nether Void!

On a serious note, I hope we're getting another GP... Or 6. It'd be a good thing.

-Jackson Puppek

[TOGITwill]

*Crosses fingers for North East GP*

[Aggro_zombies]

DON'T BAN ANYTHIIIIIIING

Also, do a Legacy GP in the Southwest, so I can actually attend it this time.

[Omega]

Legacy Grand Prix in .... Canada? :P

[Volt]

Yeah, a Legacy GP somewhere west of the Mississippi would be nice.

[hi-val]

<3<3<3

[chokin]

Legacy GP Tucson? I'd jizz in my pants if there was a GP within 4 hours of here.

[Aggro_zombies]

Legacy GP Tucson? I'd jizz in my pants if there was a GP within 4 hours of here.
Pheonix is probably the best we can hope for, or maybe L.A. or San Diego. Regardless, you'd give me a ride, right? :wink:

EDIT: Pretty awesome that he mentioned Mr. Linn by name there. Writing a well-received column for a format with a dearth of writers is pretty strong, apparently.

[luma]

How about a Legacy GP... somewhere in Europe? :cool:

[JeroenC]

How about a Legacy GP... somewhere in Europe? :cool:

Seconded. Brussels, Antwerps, Amsterdam, London or Paris so it stays in the center. You American kids already got one of these.

[sco0ter]

Seconded. Brussels, Antwerps, Amsterdam, London or Paris so it stays in the center.

The geographical point of the European Union is not free from disputes, either. If some different extreme points of the European Union, like some Atlantic Ocean islands, are taken into consideration this point is calculated in different locations. Most of them are located now in Germany. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_centre_of_Europe#Other_calculations_2)

:smile:

And if you don't take the EU, but Europe the point would even be farer in the east... but nobody wants a GP in Belarus...

The last european Legacy GP was in Lille, right? So the next is in Germany for sure.

[godryk]

I think that one Legacy GP a year won't be big news.

However, knowing that I have relatively easy access to a GP in my area (USA & Europe) ever year, would encourage me and many other players to keep on playing and investing in my favourite format.

Big news or not, an european Legacy GP next year is mandatory... :tongue:

[JeroenC]

I think that one Legacy GP a year won't be big news.

I disagree. This would be huge news.

And
The geographical point of the European Union is not free from disputes, either. If some different extreme points of the European Union, like some Atlantic Ocean islands, are taken into consideration this point is calculated in different locations. Most of them are located now in Germany. Hush now. The center I named is good, deal with it.:cool:

[Skeggi]

The geographical point of the European Union is not free from disputes, either. If some different extreme points of the European Union, like some Atlantic Ocean islands, are taken into consideration this point is calculated in different locations. Most of them are located now in Germany. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_centre_of_Europe#Other_calculations_2)

:smile:

And if you don't take the EU, but Europe the point would even be farer in the east... but nobody wants a GP in Belarus...

The last european Legacy GP was in Lille, right? So the next is in Germany for sure.
Germany has a fair chance at recieving a GP. But you don't want the geographical center of Europe - heck, Europe reaches all the way into the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaukasus). But you want the center of the Magic community. And that would be alot more to the west than the dots on the map which claim to be the geographical center of Europe.

[yankeedave]

British Legacy GP - PPPPLLLLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEEEEE!

Dave

[JeroenC]

Actually, that would be worse. A mainland GP would mean a lot more people could make it with the car and no extreme travelling prices. It would be a shame for you people to have to pay some extra, but I think attendance in mainland Europe would be greater.

[sco0ter]

And Hush now. The center I named is good, deal with it.:cool:

I wouldn't mind, if it was in Belgium or the Netherlands... Amsterdam ftw!

[luma]

I wouldn't mind, if it was in Belgium or the Netherlands... Amsterdam ftw!

On the other hand, it's been five years since the last GP in Helsinki...

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Back to Chicago?

Eh, so I'm greedy...I'll settle for Milwaukee...

[lorddotm]

I vote fer LA

[C.P.]

Gp: Toronto!

[Fons]

Gp: Toronto!

I'm cool with that.

[Anusien]

We already know what the PTQ seasons are, so it can't be that. So it's just gonna be Legacy GPs I bet. Since one of the advantages of the new system is that GPs can be out of sync with the PTQ season.

[conboy31]

Probably doug's new mail order boyfriend arrived, and he plays legacy.

I enjoy Doug's articles and have nothing against, but that was pretty funny.

[Fossil4182]

I've got the surprise all figured out:

You know that they're going to print Tarmogoyf in Blue allowing Legacy players to pitch it to Force of Will.

:-)

It'll probably be some GP's, but I hope they spread them out more. Chicago was nice for the one that they did hold since people were able to drive there if they could take a day or two off work. Plus tickets weren't that cheap, but living in the Midwest, I'd like to see some coastal Legacy GPs to make it more accessible to people across the country as well as give some of us a good excuse to travel around and get exposure to players we wouldn't see otherwise.

[Volt]

I'll be pretty disappointed if it's anything less than a GP announcement. Hopefully, I won't have to cross 3 time zones to get to it.

[Koby]

Preferred locations for a West Coast Legacy GP site:

1) Anahiem
2) San Jose ('Cisco is way to expensive to board up in for a weekend)
3) Las Vegas! (might be too distracting)
4) Phoenix/Tuscon (anywhere in Arizona, hopefully closer to the Cali border)

In terms of Magic player density, #2 makes the most sense. #3 is just asking for trouble, and #4 is probably too sparse of a location to bring really large crowds. #1 would be really really really really nice, as it's in my backyard.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Preferred locations for a West Coast Legacy GP site:

1) Anahiem
2) San Jose ('Cisco is way to expensive to board up in for a weekend)
3) Las Vegas! (might be too distracting)
4) Phoenix/Tuscon (anywhere in Arizona, hopefully closer to the Cali border)

In terms of Magic player density, #2 makes the most sense. #3 is just asking for trouble, and #4 is probably too sparse of a location to bring really large crowds. #1 would be really really really really nice, as it's in my backyard.

Of those, I have only ever been to Phoenix (which I found to be super nice), but it had better be an early/late GP cuz that place gets too damn hot the rest of the year

[whienot]

I've got the surprise all figured out:

You know that they're going to print Tarmogoyf in Blue allowing Legacy players to pitch it to Force of Will.

:-)
.

....and it will be a Mythic Common. 2 in every pack. :tongue:

[majikal]

They are abolishing the Reserved List.

[Koby]

They are abolishing the Reserved List.

And your source? Your statement as stated is highly charged. Explain yourself.

[DrJones]

Tarmogoyf was Future Shifted and it's going to be reprinted in Zendikar!!

Or maybe not.

[P.S.]

good things will be happening for Legacy soon

With the new Banned List update coming on Sept. 1st...
That's my speculation. Guess I'll find out in about four days.

[jazzykat]

Its obvious...scantily clad attractive women will become widespread and prominent in Zendikar.

[(nameless one)]

Gp: Toronto!

Tdot rocks the Gspot!

[quicksilver]

From his Twitter, about four hours ago:



You're welcome, Doug Linn.

****

So, what do you think this can be? Another Legacy GP? A Legacy PT? Discontinuing Standard sanctioned tournaments and replacing them with Legacy ones? :p

I can just see this being something like "Our extensive testing (and by which we mean we played one game of casual legacy) shows that Patron Wizard was too scary in Legacy so it is now banned. You're welcome legacy players."

[DragoFireheart]

Tarmogoyf was Future Shifted and it's going to be reprinted in Zendikar!!

Or maybe not.


This would enrage many people.



Lets see... SDT is getting banned?

GP is being announced?

Something else? Who knows...

[Elfrago]

A Blue spirit guide is coming out in Zendikar, allowing for turn 0 Stifle on Fetchlands. Almost as fun as reading a Doug Linn article.

Seriusly, they're probably going to unban Dream Halls. I don't see how a Legacy player could be happy about it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Preferred locations for a West Coast Legacy GP site:

1) Anahiem
2) San Jose ('Cisco is way to expensive to board up in for a weekend)
3) Las Vegas! (might be too distracting)
4) Phoenix/Tuscon (anywhere in Arizona, hopefully closer to the Cali border)

In terms of Magic player density, #2 makes the most sense. #3 is just asking for trouble, and #4 is probably too sparse of a location to bring really large crowds. #1 would be really really really really nice, as it's in my backyard.
The Bay Area has a lower density of Legacy players than any of those other three sites (probably) but a higher density of annoying fucks who will attend whatever GP or PTQ happens to be close by so they can brag about their ratings. Wizards can do better than that.

Somewhere in L.A. seems most likely, but Vegas doesn't seem that bad. I mean, there are plenty of venues there.

[paK0]

Just do the thing in Germany so little paK0 can attend =).

I really would love to know when they will announce "The Thing".

[Wereodile]

Tdot rocks the Gspot!

Not needing a passport to attend a Legacy event would be awesome, I'm looking at you Syracuse! :)

[Atwa]

I'm rooting for a German GP as well.

Let's look at history:
US GP
European GP
US GP (GP: Flash)
US GP

One would suggest it is only fair to revisit Europe again. Amsterdam has a Pro Tour, France got the last Legacy GP. Visiting Belgium, Luxemburg or Germany would be nice.

I guess Luxemburg doesn't have a lot of players, but it's located between Belgium, Germany and France and it's only a 2 hour drive from the Netherlands, seems nice.

I've decided I'm willing to drive 10 hours max for a GP, so Danmark isn't out of the question as well :) Let's have GP: Little Mermaid

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Not needing a passport to attend a Legacy event would be awesome, I'm looking at you Syracuse! :)



...Not needing a passport and a huge plane ticket would rock for us Canadians, too. So there you go.

Toronto! Or Montreal! Or Ottawa! Or Vancouver! Or Calgary! Or Edmonton! Or Halifax! (Although I could only attend a few of those.)

[majikal]

And your source? Your statement as stated is highly charged. Explain yourself.
I've already said too much. :eek:

[Wereodile]

...Not needing a passport and a huge plane ticket would rock for us Canadians, too. So there you go.

Toronto! Or Montreal! Or Ottawa! Or Vancouver! Or Calgary! Or Edmonton! Or Halifax! (Although I could only attend a few of those.)

Nothing against Vancougar but I am not flying all the way across the country, keep it in Montreal or Toronto. Though Vancouver is on the west coast so it may be more viable depending on what the west coast magic scene looks like.

[kabal]

Well if it is a GP and in is not in the US then I'm hoping for Tokyo. I've always want to go and now I would have even more reason.

[Manhattan]

Why is everybody jumping on the GP-train? Just because it appears the most realistic? I'd rather have a new design policy at R&D where they said something like "Ok this time we're going to design 5 cards that will go into Legacy with 90% probability." It's not not even that difficult to do that without printing something broken like Goyf. Nonbasic hate could be an idea or good librarymanipulation. Or just a good toy for some tier 2 deck to bring it back.

[KrzyMoose]

I'd rather have a new design policy at R&D where they said something like "Ok this time we're going to design 5 cards that will go into Legacy with 90% probability."

Actually....


I watched some of the Legacy and Vintage event at GenCon. I can say we knew everything you mention in this article before reading it. A wish in here is not too far from becoming true; both Tom LaPille and I protected a strangely-templated Zendikar card from a redesign because we had Eternal players in mind.

from Doug's article discussion thread on SCG.

[FoolofaTook]

They are abolishing the Reserved List.

That would make Legacy and Vintage the primary formats for competitive play and reduce Standard to a second class format played mainly by new players.

[DrJones]

Let's hear more about this Ken Nagle and the type of cards he protects:


In one of my early development passes I discovered that the set contained no Minotaurs that cost more than four mana to "cheat" into play with Didgeridoo. Intending to rectify this, I searched for Minotaurs in early Magic that cost more than four and was bewildered to find that there were none. Furious, I nearly cut Didgeridoo from the set. However, resident Timmy-Johnny Ken Nagle intervened. Before Ken came to Wizards, he played enough Magic that he was able to explore nearly every card in most sets. He told me that Didgeridoo's existence would have prompted him to make a casual Minotaur deck, and cutting it would have cost him five to ten hours of fun.


Often, the main thing that protects a Magic card from changing or being cut from a set entirely is the fervent defense of R&D members. These mechanical / flavorful hybrid designs naturally have more defenders and thusly a high survival rate. It gets to the point that if a developer argues "we need a common red Shatter—Boggart Arsonists needs to kill non-Scarecrow artifacts too!", we instead dedicate another slot to Smash to Smithereens so we can keep Boggart Arsonists as we love them.

And I argue that if R&D weren't occasionally love-struck by our own cards, we'd be doing something wrong, and Magic would have lost some of its humanity.


Mayael's Aria – Unlike most cards of this nature, this purposefully does not have an "intervening-if clause" ("At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control ..."). This allows shenanigans such as stacking the trigger during your upkeep, and responding by giving your Mossbridge Troll +20/+20. You can thank Ken Nagle for that one.


KEN 5/2: When you make a Cascade card worse by adding an extra mana, I just like it more! That's some awesome 'Development'!


Ken is a hardcore casual player, and his goal was to make sure that someone who "followed instructions" and just put a bunch of domain cards and land searching in a deck would have a good time. I, on the other hand, am a very Spikey Spike, so I built for power. You can see how that might lead Ken and me in different directions.

On a side note, working with Ken during development was really interesting. He's a very serious casual player, and therefore his instincts about cards are totally different from the developers' instincts, but they are equally valid. Ken and I are tentatively scheduled to both be on the development team of a set this coming year, and I'm very excited about that because he brings a point of view that is very unique inside Magic R&D. Ken is also interesting because he goes out of his way to not make decks too powerful. We recently defined a metric for measuring deck power levels, and on our internal discussion page for that topic Ken posted that he deliberately doesn't build anything past a certain point on our scale because if he did cool things couldn't happen in a game.

He is a good guy, but the more you read about him, the clearer it becomes that he is the wrong person to put in a development team. Specially if you play competitive in an eternal format. And he is the lead designer of Zendikar.

[Aggro_zombies]

Ugh, he protected Didgeridoo? I'd rather have Flash legal again than Anaba Grunt unbanned. Thunderbluff is only funny the first couple times you have to lose to it.

[quicksilver]

That would make Legacy and Vintage the primary formats for competitive play and reduce Standard to a second class format played mainly by new players.

What is your reasoning for that? Keep in mind that just getting rid of the reserve list doesn't magically reprint the cards on there. They may only choose to reprint a small number of them.

[DrJones]

If you ever have tried to design your own core set, you soon realize that you can't put things like wall of kelp or flooded shoreline in a core set because it's on the reserved list.

Plus, it never worked at what was intended to do, all it has done is hurting the game so that things like "From the Vault: Dragons" couldn't include the cooler dragons. It also has hurt every core set since fifth edition, who had to include sub-par cards because the best fits were on the reserved list.

[tivadar]

Ugh, he protected Didgeridoo? I'd rather have Flash legal again than Anaba Grunt unbanned. Thunderbluff is only funny the first couple times you have to lose to it.

Thank god there wasn't a GP when that deck was legal. I mean, it was seriously broken! It would be like hulk flash on crack.

[FoolofaTook]

What is your reasoning for that? Keep in mind that just getting rid of the reserve list doesn't magically reprint the cards on there. They may only choose to reprint a small number of them.

If they get rid of the reserve list then the odds are fairly good the following scenario happens:

1. They wait a respectful period after the announcement, say 6 months, to make any major splash in terms of what is reprinted. Maybe they give us a couple of cool cards to kick things off, just to let people know that the reserve list is really gone. Say Illusionary Mask, Cyclopean Tomb, Juzam Djinn and a few others.

This would begin the price de-escalation on most of the eternal staples, since nothing would have rarity based value definitely preserved moving forward. It would also be the period in which investors can still dump their investment at a reasonable price, because nobody is going to believe dual lands, let alone moxen will ever be reprinted until they see the cards in front of their faces. Prices would drop some during this period but nothing dramatic, barring leaks as to exactly what was coming next.

2. Their first big splash would probably be dual lands in a limited expansion set. This would both preserve some form of rarity, since there was no guarantee that the lands would be reprinted in a basic set moving forward, and also open up both Legacy and Vintage to the masses moving forward. Duals would drop to $20 apiece from the $40-60 they are trending to at this point. Eventually they'd settle in the same price range the fetchlands are in now or maybe a bit lower.

Prices across the board would now begin to drop fairly consistently, because dual-lands are definitely cards that nobody expected to see reprinted. Moxen are at $250 now instead of $500 in short order. Other cards see similar price drops as the implications of no reserve list begin to sink in.

Legacy gets a huge boost at this point as players previously priced out of the market, many of them recent Standard players, begin to really look at the format now that the mana bases are stabilized for them and affordable.

3. A year after the duals another expansion comes out with the power 9 at Mythic Rarity. Now Vintage is opened up to a much wider group also, including many Legacy players who would try it if they had the wherewithal.

Through this entire process WotC makes a killing on selling packs because every set they print has one or more cards that everybody is sniping for for one format or another. They may well have decided that Magic is endstage or nearing it at this point anyway. This would be the huge cashout for them. The downside is that nobody is much going to want to play Standard at this point. It's going to look like a slower, less interesting version of the other two formats. Having duals, and eventually moxen and the power 9 in Standard for set periods would keep it interesting, but those cards would rotate out - leaving Legacy and Vintage as the formats players most like to play.

[donaldB]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/53 Lets just hope this isn't it!

[Artowis]

Having duals, and eventually moxen and the power 9 in Standard for set periods would keep it interesting, but those cards would rotate out - leaving Legacy and Vintage as the formats players most like to play.

Seriously? That's such a huge leap in logic that I'm honestly flummoxed here. Vintage is outright dying in the U.S. and it definitely isn't all on card availability. The idea that people will automatically flood back to older formats seems a bit off, not to mention in doing so, WOTC basically admits that they've run out of ideas for Magic at that point.

[KrzyMoose]

Actually, the whole "Reserved List" thing is sort of silly. They can reprint whatever they want to, whenever they want to.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Nourishing Lich all foil collector's edition?

FUCK YEAH!!!! I'd bring that shit to a tournament!

[Mr.C]

I've already said too much. :eek:

If it was this, I'd be so happy. Really.

I do think that the next GP should be in Germany. I mean, it would likely beat all attendance records of every other Tournament in history. I could see 1500 people or more easy.

And someone suggested a GP Vancouver. No way that's happening. The last one was like 300 people. Regina might have had more players.

[MMogg]

If they get rid of the reserve list then the odds are fairly good the following scenario happens:
[snip for space]

I like what you say to a point, but it will never happen. I'd love a set of p9 with all new art and new card design and I'd even probably pay 50 bucks each. :laugh: But, that's like saying I want to win the lottery when I don't even play it to begin with: it's never going to happen. Forgetting the power levels of those cards, they don't want to alienate all those collectors who paid so much for their cards.

Duals are going crazy. I remember them at 10-15 bucks when I picked mine up. *sigh* I guess it stands to reason that the longer this game is around, the harder it will be for players to get into the eternal formats. :frown:

[DrJones]

The worst thing is that Wizards agree that it was stupid to put duals in the reserved list in the first place, that duals's purpose is to allow people to play with their cards, and accomplishing that in the most elegant way is the best for the game and their top priority. They even tried to make an exception that would allow them to reprint them, but they lost the argument against the brand team or something.

I would say that the reserved list was the stupidest thing Wizards has ever done, but then I remember three portal sets that were meant to introduce players to the game, but were not legal in tournaments and therefore banned in most playgroups. At least they changed the policy regarding portal cards, but they still keep the reserved list because they want to keep their word. The word that they are dumb, I suppose.

[Barook]

The worst thing is that Wizards agree that it was stupid to put duals in the reserved list in the first place, that duals's purpose is to allow people to play with their cards, and accomplishing that in the most elegant way is the best for the game and their top priority. They even tried to make an exception that would allow them to reprint them, but they lost the argument against the brand team or something.

I would say that the reserved list was the stupidest thing Wizards has ever done, but then I remember three portal sets that were meant to introduce players to the game, but were not legal in tournaments and therefore banned in most playgroups. At least they changed the policy regarding portal cards, but they still keep the reserved list because they want to keep their word. The word that they are dumb, I suppose.
The reserved list was dumb, but putting Duals onto it? Not from Wizards perspective because they're able to recreate new, shitty versions of Duals and people playing standard have to get them to stay competitive.

[DrJones]

Starting from day 1, I have argued that good multilands make Magic more fun and I've tried to make sure that every block gives players the tools they need to play 2+ color decks. At the time, those lands were considered very very good. Nowadays, we realize how big a drawback "comes into play tapped" can be and we're making lands that are even better. In fact, if it wasn't for the Reserved List, I'd be arguing for us to reprint the original dual lands.

[FoolofaTook]

The worst thing is that Wizards agree that it was stupid to put duals in the reserved list in the first place, that duals's purpose is to allow people to play with their cards, and accomplishing that in the most elegant way is the best for the game and their top priority. They even tried to make an exception that would allow them to reprint them, but they lost the argument against the brand team or something.

I would say that the reserved list was the stupidest thing Wizards has ever done, but then I remember three portal sets that were meant to introduce players to the game, but were not legal in tournaments and therefore banned in most playgroups. At least they changed the policy regarding portal cards, but they still keep the reserved list because they want to keep their word. The word that they are dumb, I suppose.

WotC has definitely mishandled the product. They'd have made more money and had a much larger fanbase if they'd only printed 1,000 discrete cards over the lifespan of Magic to date and not put any of those on the reserved list.

The biggest impediments to growing the market for them at this point (and ever) are the immense complexity that having an enormous and ever growing card base introduces for new players - who literally take years to become assimilated into the player base assuming they last that long - and the fact that the best cards ever printed are completely unavailable to the average player entering the field.

Creating a game that caters to a small entrenched elite with access to very limited resources is not a good business plan. That's what WotC has.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Yes, that's why Wizards and the game is just suffering so. Oh...wait, no. That would be true if the only formats available were the eternal formats, but new players can quickly play standard, limited, or casual. Even the newer, quirkier formats like EDH aren't that hard/expensive to put together a decent list. Yes, Vintage and to a lesser extent Legacy are hard formats to jump into for newer players, but Magic doing just fine.

[DrJones]

Magic is doing fine now, wait a year or two, when their exclusive patent on Collectible Card Games expires.

[TorpidNinja]

Magic is doing fine now, wait a year or two, when their exclusive patent on Collectible Card Games expires.

Well, to be precise, their patent isn't on CCGs in general but a number of mechanics which make MTG as a CCG more intuitive with self-sufficient "memory" systems (take 'tapping' for example.)

I checked out the original patent (filed in Canada! Woo!) but couldn't find an expiration date; where did you find it?

[Bardo]

Here's the patent, which is freaking fascinating (really).

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ixoMAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

About expiration, the way I read this (http://www.lectlaw.com/files/inp03.htm), it should expire 20 years after it was filed (Oct 17, 1995), so it should expire Oct 17, 2015, not this year.

Though, using this patent expiry date calendar (http://www.patentcalculator.com/Default.aspx), it is indeed Sept 2, 2009.

[DrJones]

No, they have granted a patent on CCGs, the patent also grants them exclusivity on certain things like the word "Tap" which where done with the intention of crippling the competency, but for which workarounds where devised (like just use the term "bow", "tack", "turn" and "unstraight"). The game was created in 1993, but the patent wasn't granted until 1997. Patents last 15 years after filing, so it will expire on 2012.

All others CCG right now have to pay WotC for the right to compete, and needs permission from them.

Edit: Heh, I thought it was 15 years all this time.

[DragoFireheart]

No, they have granted a patent on CCGs, the patent also grants them exclusivity on certain things like the word "Tap" which where done with the intention of crippling the competency, but for which workarounds where devised (like just use the term "bow", "tack", "turn" and "unstraight"). The game was created in 1993, but the patent wasn't granted until 1997. Patents last 15 years after filing, so it will expire on 2012.

All others CCG right now have to pay WotC for the right to compete, and needs permission from them.


That's quite the monopoly that Wizards has.

[theintangiblefatman]

Enemy Fetches (and presumably Allied Reprints along with them) in Zendikar doesn't seem unreasonable.

1) Standard will need good dual lands to replace the Vivid/Filter/Pool engine most decks currently use to pay the difficult mana costs of Alara Block. Fetches would have good synergy with the M10 duals, allowing a deck to easily play 2-3 colors, but they are not strong enough without dual lands to allow 5c decks to once again becoming the norm.

2) Reprinting fetches allows Extended mana bases to once again work smoothly. I'm not sure what Wizards's official stance on this is, but from my perspective the significant life loss incurred by fetching multiple Ravnica duals into play with the danger of nonbasic hate makes such mana bases balanced.

3) Fetches work very well with Zendikar's Landfall mechanic.

[tivadar]

Fetches 5-8 would be awesome. I believe it's been stated that enemy fetches will never happen... However, fetches 5-8 probably means a deck with two friend colors could run entirely basic lands and fetches.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Fetches 6-10, you mean.

Don't count on the CCG copyright passing by 2015 or whenever. Wizards is with Hasbro now, and powerful companies have ways of keeping copyright going indefinitely. See: Mickey Mouse.

[Manhattan]

As a matter of fact I think Fetchlands work a little too well with Landfall. I assume the ability was intentionally not worded "whenever you play a land". Maybe that's the trick with Landfall. It's on one powerlevel in standard and on a different powerlevel in Legacy. Only thing left are some decent Landfall triggers on cards that cost 3 and less.

[mujadaddy]

Patent != copyright

[Bardo]

Fetches 6-10, you mean.

Don't count on the CCG copyright passing by 2015 or whenever. Wizards is with Hasbro now, and powerful companies have ways of keeping copyright going indefinitely. See: Mickey Mouse.
Exactly. Hasbro will (and repeatedly has) have their legal team issue menacing-sounding C&D orders for what they perceive as infringement of their intellectual property. WotC in 1995 could not have done this without a well-established brand. The fact their patent is going to expire doesn't change much.

@ Mujadaddy - True, but not relevant.

[ThatGuyThere]

Fetches 6-10, you mean.

Uhm, what?


...they're either 5-8, or maybe 9-12. Well, or 1-4. ...6-10? That'd be five new fetches...

...were you talking EDH? You're making somewhat less sense than usual.


On-Topic - G'bye, Reserved List! I own power, I am a collector, I have 50%+ of the cards on the Reserve List, and when it's removed, I shall dance and caper with glee.

But it's not going anywhere. Why? Well, frankly, I'm not sure.

[workingdude]

Uhm, what?


...they're either 5-8, or maybe 9-12. Well, or 1-4. ...6-10? That'd be five new fetches...

...were you talking EDH? You're making somewhat less sense than usual.


On-Topic - G'bye, Reserved List! I own power, I am a collector, I have 50%+ of the cards on the Reserve List, and when it's removed, I shall dance and caper with glee.

But it's not going anywhere. Why? Well, frankly, I'm not sure.

You are talking about 5-8 (4 of the same kind) relevant colored fetches in a deck. IBA is talking about 5 (6-10) more available fetches in a card pool

[Gheizen64]

Enemy fetches no please. They're stupid.

Neo-fetches, maybe.

[MMogg]

Uhm, what?


...they're either 5-8, or maybe 9-12. Well, or 1-4. ...6-10? That'd be five new fetches...

I think the confusion is it sounded like you were saying fetches 5-8 meaning new fetchlands being added are adding onto 4 existing, making the new ones #s 5-8. But his correction was meant to say that there are 5 old and 5 new, hence fetches 6-10 meaning the new off-colour ones. But I think you meant fetches in a deck, 5-8 fetch slots. :confused: At least, that's what I gather.

Short version: miscommunication.

[SilverGreen]

You know what would be funny? Printing enemy-paired fetch lands. But the Mirage ones! =]

[MMogg]

You know what would be funny? Printing enemy-paired fetch lands. But the Mirage ones! =]

LMAO, yeah that would be funny actually. I remember using the old Mirage ones, especially back in old Highlander decks. :laugh:

It's funny how painlands seem to be crap now. Everytime I turn around I'm noticing most of my old staples are now coasters. :cry:

[Koby]

It's funny how painlands seem to be crap now. Everytime I turn around I'm noticing most of my old staples are now coasters. :cry:

QFT.

I can't believe how fast they lost their value. More reason to bring the end of the Reserve List.

[hungryLIKEALION]

If they did abolish the reserve list, I think I'd be the happiest man alive. If prices on staples like duals just keep going up like they are now, pretty soon there will be NO new players in this format instead of just few. Driving prices down could do wonders to convince more people to play legacy and vintage.

[TorpidNinja]

Patent != copyright

Even if you replace 'copyright' with 'patent' in IBA's post, he's still right. There are a number of loopholes in the patent system (much like the copyright system) that require only diligence and cash to make work in a company's favour.

[DrJones]

Yes, and no. They can prevent some people to print the same cards than them, they can even trademark Magic. But once the patent expires, it becomes public domain and everyone can make their own CCG. Moreover, WotC will no longer be able to set the price for everyone.
Boosters cost so much because WotC has a monopoly and maximize profits by setting the highest price they can to boosters packs, competition has to pay a premium to WotC, so they can't lower the prices of their boosters.

But, as soon as this patent expires, nothing prevents competition to cut booster prices, because they no longer have to pay WotC for the right to sell their games. WotC also loses a big chunk of money from royalties. That's pretty traumatic for a business that has been built around a monopoly.

[Brushwagg]

You should replace WotC with Hasbro though. If Hasbro says pull the plug it's pulled.

[Nihil Credo]

WotC also loses a big chunk of money from royalties. That's pretty traumatic for a business that has been built around a monopoly.

Magic Arcana, Magicthegathering.com, Oct 18, 2015:

"Announcing...

From the Vault: Expensive Fatties!
From the Vault: Multicolor!
From the Vault: Tournament Staples!
From the Vault: Basic Lands!
From the Vault: Power 9!
From the Vault: Power 9 With New Art Featuring Big-Breasted Girls!
From the Vault: Power 9 With New Art Featuring Big-Breasted Anime Girls!
From the Vault: Richard Garfield's Grocery Lists!
From the Vault: R&D's Personal Collections!
From the Vault: MaRo's Unpublished "Roseanne" scripts!"

[mujadaddy]

Exactly. Hasbro will (and repeatedly has) have their legal team issue menacing-sounding C&D orders for what they perceive as infringement of their intellectual property. WotC in 1995 could not have done this without a well-established brand. The fact their patent is going to expire doesn't change much.

@ Mujadaddy - True, but not relevant.It matters quite a bit -- the example of Mickey Mouse is a copyright, and copyright lasts a lot longer than patents. Copyright is a defense of artistic work (such as the art on a Magic card). Patents cover inventions. No one can reasonably argue that M:tG isn't an invention, but let's see (linked above, section 20, starting at line 5) what they patented, specifically.

Constructing a library from a large pool of cards
Obtaining an initial hand from a shuffle & draw
Putting cards from the hand into play
"Designating" a card by rotation from original to a different orientation
Discarding cards to the discard area

#2 & #5 have been used by card games since there WERE card games. #3 is prior art from Tarot, at the very least. So what was patented (in combination with those three standard playing card game operations) is really the concept of deck construction and the concept of the card as a 'permanent,' use of which is indicated to the players by way of rotation. (Part of the game method involves turning the cards back to their original orientation as part of the beginning of the turn)

So, if this patent is valid, how do Pokemon & Yugioh, et. al, get away with "constructing a library from a large pool of cards"? On a related note, do Pokemon & Yugioh use any kind of rotation to indicate changes in the gamestate?

[Ectoplasm]

What would we say about a from the vault: Duallands?
I'd love to have shiny Tundras :)

[The_Red_Panda]

From the Vault: MaRo's Unpublished "Roseanne" scripts!"


You sir, have just won this thread.

[hungryLIKEALION]

What would we say about a from the vault: Duallands?
I'd love to have shiny Tundras :)

That'd be sweet. I'm pretty sure they'd go on Ebay for like $500 ;p

[Bardo]

So, if this patent is valid, how do Pokemon & Yugioh, et. al, get away with "constructing a library from a large pool of cards"? On a related note, do Pokemon & Yugioh use any kind of rotation to indicate changes in the gamestate?

Get sued and quietly settle out of court (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2003_Dec_29/ai_111705013/)?

Also. (http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/vol17/issue18/screens.gaming.html) (1997)

[mujadaddy]

Get sued and quietly settle out of court (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2003_Dec_29/ai_111705013/)?

Also. (http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/vol17/issue18/screens.gaming.html) (1997)

Hmmmm...interesting. I'd looooooove to know the details. What about Yugioh, Illuminati, etc., etc...? Also makes me wonder how much licensing their patent is...

[Barook]

From today's article talking about upcoming cards from ZEN:


- A cycle of cards that players have been begging us to print for years.
Enemy fetchlands? :really:

I really can't think of any other cycle that would fit this description.

[workingdude]

From today's article talking about upcoming cards from ZEN:


Enemy fetchlands? :really:

I really can't think of any other cycle that would fit this description.

I hope so. I've slowly been collecting duals, but have been having to borrow my friend's fetches. It'd be nice to finish my manabase with cheaper fetchlands (Hopefully this will bring the prices of original fetches down?)

[Aggro_zombies]

Legendary Octopus = Cthulhu. You heard it here first, folks.

Also, if they're finally printing enemy fetches, I'm buying a fucking case of this set. I don't care how much it costs, I need those blue-green fetchlands!

EDIT: The price of the original fetches will drop somewhat once they rotate out of Extended (when Zendikar becomes legal).

[Jade]

From today's article talking about upcoming cards from ZEN:


Enemy fetchlands? :really:

I really can't think of any other cycle that would fit this description.

That was my first thought too. It would also fit the theme of the block and creates some nice synergy with landfall. On a larger scale, it keeps fetchies in extended and and adds new fetchies to the eternal formats. It all makes perfect sense.

[Barook]

Legendary Octopus = Cthulhu. You heard it here first, folks.

If it's playable, it will also spawn many tentacle rape jokes.

[MattH]

It's not a cycle, but it would be sweet to have a single land:

NAME
Land
{T}, sacrifice ~this~, pay 1 life: Search your library for a land that is a basic land type you don't control. Put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

It would actually really promote true 5 color decks in eternal, since you couldn't use this to go Tundra-Trop - you'd have to be going Tundra-Bayou or some such. Would also play well with the Domain cards from Conflux.

But it's not a cycle.

[MMogg]

Also, if they're finally printing enemy fetches, I'm buying a fucking case of this set. I don't care how much it costs, I need those blue-green fetchlands!

Dude, a case would be more expensive than buying each playset off of ebay. I bought a case of Magic in the past: biggest waste of friggin' money, ever!

[hungryLIKEALION]

I hope it isn't enemy fetch lands... Not because I don't want them to be printed, but because I was really looking forward to an extended format without them. :(

That being said, if it IS enemy fetches, I'll suck it up pretty quickly.

[JeroenC]

Dude, a case would be more expensive than buying each playset off of ebay. I bought a case of Magic in the past: biggest waste of friggin' money, ever!

That's because you don't do it right (no offense). A lot of sets will give you more value than you payed for the set, if you find places to sell it.

[MMogg]

That's because you don't do it right (no offense). A lot of sets will give you more value than you payed for the set, if you find places to sell it.

Not really. I bought a case of a large expansion and full sets were few, not to mention, why buy a case and then sell sets (including the chase rares you are looking for and the reason why you bought the case in the first place)?

I still say buying singles is way cheaper than cracking packs.

Actually the best way is winning casual limited tournaments where you can pick rares. :cool:

[tivadar]

Hasn't wizards repeatedly said that there won't be enemy fetchlands? Wouldn't either a reprint of regular fetchlands or fetchlands under a different name be more likely?

Personally, I think enemy fetches are a bad idea in general. As it is the format is vastly warped to heavily multi-colored decks right now with really only wasteland (and stifle a bit) keeping it in check. I can only think that enemy fetches will add to this. Who knows, maybe they'll reprint wasteland under a different name ;).

EDIT: Though I suppose we haven't been begging for fetchlands, we already have them...

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Right...reprints of allied fetchlands would do nothing for Legacy (although it would sure shake up Standard/Extended).

My question is, assuming they DID print enemy fetchlands, what would change in Legacy? Would some decks become more viable? More 4 or 5 color craziness? Or will it just strengthen the power of U/G?

[Skeggi]

The printing of enemy fetches would increase the stability of the manabase of decks that run 3 or more colors which aren't centered around a 'shard'.

For instance, an UGW deck uses Tropical Island, Tundra and Savannah. They're all fetchable with 2 fetchlands: Windswept Heath and Flooded Strand, so it's easy to get up to 8 fetchlands.

If your deck is UGR, the duals you would use are Tropical Island, Volcanic Island and Taiga. Only Wooded Foothills can fetch all these lands. If an UR fetchland would be printed, this deck can also have access to 8 fetchlands which could fetch all the lands.

It also provides extra aspects for running basics. When U and G are your main colors, you often have the blue fetches because you also run some basic Islands. If you have access to a UG fetchland, you could also run a basic Forest.

[Waikiki]

Yet I think they wont get printed as Wizards said they wanted to get back into mono colored/2 colored decks again right? No more sick ass 3/4/5c decks in standard is what I recall them saying.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Yea, but they would only get basics in Standard...there aren't any non-basics with basic land subtypes.

[Waikiki]

good point.

[grahf]

Right, if WotC was going to print enemy fetches, they'd probably wait at least until Ravnica rotates out of Extended, which is several years down the line. The game-slowing effects of every deck shuffling every turn has been explicitly mentioned as a negative for fetchlands.

[Anusien]

The printing of enemy fetches would increase the stability of the manabase of decks that run 3 or more colors which aren't centered around a 'shard'.

For instance, an UGW deck uses Tropical Island, Tundra and Savannah. They're all fetchable with 2 fetchlands: Windswept Heath and Flooded Strand, so it's easy to get up to 8 fetchlands.

If your deck is UGR, the duals you would use are Tropical Island, Volcanic Island and Taiga. Only Wooded Foothills can fetch all these lands. If an UR fetchland would be printed, this deck can also have access to 8 fetchlands which could fetch all the lands.

It also provides extra aspects for running basics. When U and G are your main colors, you often have the blue fetches because you also run some basic Islands. If you have access to a UG fetchland, you could also run a basic Forest.
The problem isn't fetching duals (because who plays non-blue duals in blue decks?) but fetching basics.

[JeroenC]

My main issue with printing enemy fetches is the fact that they rather obsolete the meaning of "enemy" colors. I still believe it should be easier to use allied colors than to use enemy colors. But maybe I'm just weird that way. ;)

[Koby]

My main issue with printing enemy fetches is the fact that they rather obsolete the meaning of "enemy" colors. I still believe it should be easier to use allied colors than to use enemy colors. But maybe I'm just weird that way. ;)

Historically, it should also be challenging to play 5c Control decks that feature cards with UUBBBRR and 2RG and 3WW and 1RR and 1UUU, but that hasn't really stopped Wizards from making it happen with Shadowmoor mini-block.

After that fiasco, I'd say anything is possible.

[(nameless one)]

i still dont see the point of printing enemy fetchlands especially in legacy. I mean you can always fetch a Plateau with the following: Bloodstained Mire, Flooded Strand, Windswept Heath and Wooded Foothills (thats 4 of the 5 existing fetchland).

I would understand if they printed enemy M10 lands but enemy fetchlands? I know theyre exciting but come on, get practical

[kicks_422]

Yea, but they would only get basics in Standard...there aren't any non-basics with basic land subtypes.

Were there any non-basics with basic land subtypes when they printed the original fetchlands?

[tsabo_tavoc]

My main issue with printing enemy fetches is the fact that they rather obsolete the meaning of "enemy" colors. I still believe it should be easier to use allied colors than to use enemy colors. But maybe I'm just weird that way. ;)

Exactly my thought. However, WotC doesn't care, does it?

[Koby]

Were there any non-basics with basic land subtypes when they printed the original fetchlands?

Aside from OG duals, no.
Aside from RAV duals, no.

Lorwyn block changed that, with Murmuring Bosk & the basic land-type nonbasics.

[tivadar]

I personally have been begging for more multicolor *hate*. Not that anyone ever listens to me anyways :-P. Would be interesting to see some (decent) multicolor hate. 3 mana for "destroy all multicolor permanents"? Yes please!

[JeroenC]

Historically, it should also be challenging to play 5c Control decks that feature cards with UUBBBRR and 2RG and 3WW and 1RR and 1UUU, but that hasn't really stopped Wizards from making it happen with Shadowmoor mini-block.

After that fiasco, I'd say anything is possible.

That was a mistake. Yes. But it doesn't affect all of magic the way enemy fetches would. Vivid+Pool is too slow outside of T2.


Exactly my thought. However, WotC doesn't care, does it?

They do, I believe... Most Legacy players don't seem to care, though.

[dahcmai]

Nourishing Lich all foil collector's edition?

You're such an ass. lol I'd have to laugh for a week if that's true.

[heroicraptor]

Printing enemy fetches would also stagnate Extended somewhat, by not forcing a change in mana base.

[Fossil4182]

On Enemy Fetchlands:

I don't want shell out another $300 for lands....

Sigh...

Additionally, would printing enemy fetch lands dramatically alter the format any? I can't think of any archetypes that are not played explicitly or even in large part due to a shaky mana base because of the absences of enemy fetch lands. Additionally, I don't foresee improving the consistency of the mana bases significantly improving any existing decks...

[Bardo]

Additionally, would printing enemy fetch lands dramatically alter the format any? I can't think of any archetypes that are not played explicitly or even in large part due to a shaky mana base because of the absences of enemy fetch lands. Additionally, I don't foresee improving the consistency of the mana bases significantly improving any existing decks...

I'd gladly pay $100 for 4x U/G fetches. It'd be like christmas. Wouldn't think twice about it. To your point, probably not--just tighten what we already have in the balance of fetches, duals and basics.

[Waikiki]

start crying when they come in as mythic lands

[GreenOne]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/17956.html
Gencon lists are up. Is this what AF meant?

[Skeggi]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/17956.html
Gencon lists are up. Is this what AF meant?
Nice to see the lists. But it hardly qualifies as 'good things for Legacy'.

[MMogg]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/17956.html
Gencon lists are up. Is this what AF meant?

That shiznit is old news. Those decklists have been up since August 24th (http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/53c). :rolleyes:

[Solaran_X]

So...Enemy Fetches are confirmed with PAX thanks to a giant poster board Arid Mesa (R/W Fetch).

Is this what Forsythe was talking about? I seriously hope not...enemy fetches will certainly be nice, but underwhelming compared to more Legacy GPs and/or major B/R modifications.

[Volt]

So...Enemy Fetches are confirmed with PAX thanks to a giant poster board Arid Mesa (R/W Fetch).

Is this what Forsythe was talking about? I seriously hope not...enemy fetches will certainly be nice, but underwhelming compared to more Legacy GPs and/or major B/R modifications.

+1

[Blitzbold]

So...Enemy Fetches are confirmed with PAX thanks to a giant poster board Arid Mesa (R/W Fetch).

Is this what Forsythe was talking about? I seriously hope not...enemy fetches will certainly be nice, but underwhelming compared to more Legacy GPs and/or major B/R modifications.



+1

[Jade]

So...Enemy Fetches are confirmed with PAX thanks to a giant poster board Arid Mesa (R/W Fetch).

Is this what Forsythe was talking about? I seriously hope not...enemy fetches will certainly be nice, but underwhelming compared to more Legacy GPs and/or major B/R modifications.

-1

Come on guys, this is great news for Legacy!
Of course more GPs would be nice, but on the other hand Forsythe could have been talking about unbanning Dream Halls.

Tss, you get new Fetches and keep moaning...

[Arctic_Slicer]

-1

Come on guys, this is great news for Legacy!
Of course more GPs would be nice, but on the other hand Forsythe could have been talking about unbanning Dream Halls.

Tss, you get new Fetches and keep moaning...

Honestly, the only one that's really going to be relevant for Legacy is the is g/u one; u/r, b/g, r/w and w/b are far less popular color combinations than g/u. Sure they will see play but they wont be filling a role that the current crop of fetchlands isn't already filling.

[Nihil Credo]

Wonder if there's any chance of it lowering the price of the original - or, more accurately, preventing it from increasing. After all, if you are trying to build Canadian Thresh, Pikula, Eva Green, R/W Goblins, etc. from scratch you now no longer need the original cycle.

[Solaran_X]

Wonder if there's any chance of it lowering the price of the original - or, more accurately, preventing it from increasing. After all, if you are trying to build Canadian Thresh, Pikula, Eva Green, R/W Goblins, etc. from scratch you now no longer need the original cycle.
The originals will probably drop in price anyways since...
A) They're still "newer" cards (as in, more recent than most money Legacy cards and higher availability)
B) They're only legal in Legacy and Vintage once Zendikar rotates into Extended, and Legacy and Vintage are considerably less popular than Extended or Standard.

[MMogg]

The originals will probably drop in price anyways since...
A) They're still "newer" cards (as in, more recent than most money Legacy cards and higher availability)
B) They're only legal in Legacy and Vintage once Zendikar rotates into Extended, and Legacy and Vintage are considerably less popular than Extended or Standard.

Couple problems there. One is that – as someone else said in another thread – most people who would off-load their fetches because of Extended would have already done so at the end of last season. Another is that dual lands have never gone down . . . ever. Fetches have become a staple until they make something better, so there will always be demand for them. I mean, multi-colour aggro uses them, mono-colour aggro like Goblins (which may become even bigger) uses them, aggro control uses them, pure control uses them with Brainstorm, combo uses them... I just don't see them dropping all too much.

[Solaran_X]

Couple problems there. One is that – as someone else said in another thread – most people who would off-load their fetches because of Extended would have already done so at the end of last season. Another is that dual lands have never gone down . . . ever. Fetches have become a staple until they make something better, so there will always be demand for them. I mean, multi-colour aggro uses them, mono-colour aggro like Goblins (which may become even bigger) uses them, aggro control uses them, pure control uses them with Brainstorm, combo uses them... I just don't see them dropping all too much.
Dual lands are also a lot older (1993/1994) and have a much lower availability than Onslaught fetch lands (Onslaught alone printed more of any given fetch land than Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, and Revised printed of duals). Not to mention collector value has pretty much taken the Alphas and Betas out of circulation, and high prices of the Alpha/Beta ones in circulation takes them out of reach of many Legacy players.

So the amount of dual lands and Onslaught fetch lands circulating in "general" player circulation is slanted heavily in favor of the Onslaught fetches numerically.

Which is why duals still retain ridiculous prices.

[MMogg]

Which is why duals still retain ridiculous prices.

Naturally they are more expensive, but my point was that manabase staples that are only playable in eternal formats can still steadily increase without dropping in value. :smile: Since I began playing, dual lands have both doubled (in the case of Plateau) and more than tripled (in the case of Tropical Islands) in value. Although I don't expect fetches to do the same, I'm still skeptical that they will drop much in value if no new card replaces their function, and more than likely will slowly rise in value. Of course, they could get over printed like the Ice Age painlands and then eventually become $5 cards. That'd be cool too.

[Solaran_X]

Naturally they are more expensive, but my point was that manabase staples that are only playable in eternal formats can still steadily increase without dropping in value. :smile: Since I began playing, dual lands have both doubled (in the case of Plateau) and more than tripled (in the case of Tropical Islands) in value. Although I don't expect fetches to do the same, I'm still skeptical that they will drop much in value if no new card replaces their function, and more than likely will slowly rise in value. Of course, they could get over printed like the Ice Age painlands and then eventually become $5 cards. That'd be cool too.
You also seem to forget that with only Vintage and Legacy using them now, the supply may very well be larger than the demand - considering how extensively played Extended is, it's reasonable to believe that Extended alone generates more demand than Vintage and Legacy together.

With dual lands, the very limited numbers of dual lands in circulation is much lower than the demand for them, therefore they retain and increase value.

But if the supply of Onslaught fetches turns out to be less than demand, they may very well return to Onslaught-era prices.

And on the note of dual lands, I got me a NM Tundra for $30 today and a EX Bayou for $22.

[MattH]

Another is that dual lands have never gone down . . . ever.

Actually they did experience a drop shortly after they were dropped/rotated out of Extended in like...2001, I think. They dropped from $20-25 to $10-15, then began a steady upward push to where they are today.

[workingdude]

But if the supply of Onslaught fetches turns out to be less than demand, they may very well return to Onslaught-era prices.

I dont think demand for onslaught fetches to increase. New product is coming out that does the job that these fetchlands often only half-accomplished when used. So unless vintage/legacy players are unwilling to shell out a little more money or trade in their less efficient counterparts to increase consistency, demand for original fetches will go down.

[Bardo]

You also seem to forget that with only Vintage and Legacy using them now, the supply may very well be larger than the demand - considering how extensively played Extended is, it's reasonable to believe that Extended alone generates more demand than Vintage and Legacy together.

Technically, the largest player group placing demand on duals and fetches are the casual players (aka, the silent majority). Demand from Extended players certainly affects price, but the casual players are one of the main reasons duals have held their value over time.

[FoolofaTook]

Which is why duals still retain ridiculous prices.

Duals aren't "retaining" ridiculous prices. They've actually doubled in the last 2 plus years. The price incline they're on will make them $100 cards by 2012 or so.

I've been through this once before with the moxen. 1993: $5, 1994: $15, 1995: $25, 1996: $50+.

[Happy Gilmore]

On Enemy Fetchlands:

I don't want shell out another $300 for lands....

Sigh...

Additionally, would printing enemy fetch lands dramatically alter the format any? I can't think of any archetypes that are not played explicitly or even in large part due to a shaky mana base because of the absences of enemy fetch lands. Additionally, I don't foresee improving the consistency of the mana bases significantly improving any existing decks...

if I could buy a set of the enemy fetches for $300 I would do it in a heart beat. A set of these new ones will run 30 each for the first few months. I'm going to think that a set will run about $500. I'll probably be drafting every week to get my set. Its the best way I can think to get them.

[workingdude]

if I could buy a set of the enemy fetches for $300 I would do it in a heart beat. A set of these new ones will run 30 each for the first few months. I'm going to think that a set will run about $500. I'll probably be drafting every week to get my set. Its the best way I can think to get them.

30 each is outrageous. I'll sell you each one I get for 30$.

1 in every 11 rares is a fetchie. Every pod of 8 drafters will get around 2-3

[MMogg]

You also seem to forget that with only Vintage and Legacy using them now, the supply may very well be larger than the demand - considering how extensively played Extended is, it's reasonable to believe that Extended alone generates more demand than Vintage and Legacy together.

With dual lands, the very limited numbers of dual lands in circulation is much lower than the demand for them, therefore they retain and increase value.

But if the supply of Onslaught fetches turns out to be less than demand, they may very well return to Onslaught-era prices.

And on the note of dual lands, I got me a NM Tundra for $30 today and a EX Bayou for $22.

Ok, so another example with a larger print run than Revised, Tolarian Academy and Gaea's Cradle have maintained their value, and Tolarian you only need one. :wink: My basic point still stands: great staple cards rarely devalue.



Actually they did experience a drop shortly after they were dropped/rotated out of Extended in like...2001, I think. They dropped from $20-25 to $10-15, then began a steady upward push to where they are today.


Really?! I picked mine up in about 1999 for $10 each (Canadian). They were still Extended legal. :smile:

[MattH]

Really?! I picked mine up in about 1999 for $10 each (Canadian). They were still Extended legal. :smile:
Yeah, I got my playset of Seas for $60, and the same price for a set of Volcs. The Seas were (and are still) in almost perfect condition, too (only 2 of the volcs are so nice).

[HAVE HEART]

Discontinuing Standard sanctioned tournaments and replacing them with Legacy ones? :p

Do not get my hopes up. That would be the best news ever.

[Solaran_X]

Today's (9/7/09) Average MOTL Prices:
Polluted Delta - $18.25, based on 54 eBay auctions
Flooded Strand - $14.91, based on 56 eBay auctions
Windswept Heath - $12.37, based on 68 eBay auctions
Bloodstained Mire - $11.60, based on 49 eBay auctions
Wooded Foothills - $12.02, based on 50 eBay auctions

Looks like Onslaught-era prices as I remember them.

[Happy Gilmore]

30 each is outrageous. I'll sell you each one I get for 30$.

1 in every 11 rares is a fetchie. Every pod of 8 drafters will get around 2-3


I have no idea what they will stabilize at, but they will be around 30 for a little while for sure. I might be underestimating the number of them on the market however.

[Jak]

I have no idea what they will stabilize at, but they will be around 30 for a little while for sure. I might be underestimating the number of them on the market however.

They really won't be though. The rare size is so small in this set that you will be opening them frequently. If you open 2 boxes you should get every rare in the set and then some.

They might be at 30 because people are trying to buy them fast but they will probably all go for less than $20 once it stabilizes.

[sunshine]

Small number of rares + lots of triple Zendikar drafts. I would expect the high demand ones to settle around $15 and the rest around $10. Thank god they weren't mythic...

[Arctic_Slicer]

Small number of rares + lots of triple Zendikar drafts. I would expect the high demand ones to settle around $15 and the rest around $10. Thank god they weren't mythic...

What's with all of the whining about mythic? The chances of any specific mythic card appearing in a Zendikar booster as your rare is 1/121 which isn't much worse than the 1/110 chance of any specific rare appearing in an Onslaught Booster. Mythics only exist because the market research showed that players felt they were printing too many cards; when they reduced the set sizes rares became "less-rare" due to the lower number of rares being printed. To keep the collector's value of the game intact they decided that some rares would appear twice on a sheet; they currently use sheets with 121 cards on them so on a rare sheet there are 53 of cards appearing twice and are known as rare, or if you are oldschool rare 2 because they appear twice per sheet, which leaves 15 cards remaining that are known as mythic, or simply rare 1 as they only appear once per sheet. 2x53+15=121

Seriously it's not a really big deal.

[AngryTroll]

Someone tell Doug Linn good things will be happening for Legacy soon.

Well, Wizards delivered, big time.

Enemy Fetches are a big deal for Standard, Extended, and Legacy, but Legacy probably gets the best use out of them.
Two new fair but viable combos: Dark Depths and the new Vampire and Necro Hulk.
And a whole new (well, newly playable) archetype: MUD is back with Metalworker!

This has probably been the best few weeks for Legacy in a long, long time. Wizards is definetly showing our format some love, but in a sneaky way that the probably won't make the other formats jealous.

[Jak]

Yeah, they delivered big time for Legacy. 3 old playable cards and a whole new set of awesome. It just becomes all about development now which is awesome.

[AngryTroll]

Yeah, they delivered big time for Legacy.

3 old playable cards and a whole new set of awesome.

It just becomes all about development now which is awesome.

When's the last time anyone has said any of these three comments about Wizards and Legacy? Pretty spectacular work, without ruining any other formats by printing stupid things.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Too true. Well done Wizards, well done.

[Happy Gilmore]

All the new cards we have are great, but until we get an announcement for a Legacy GP every year I'm not cracking the bottle of Champagne.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

They would have to be incredibly foolish after the attendence at GP: Chicago not to. I don't know if it held it through the season, but at the time it was the largest US GP to date.