[SCD] Kinsbaile Cavalier

[tivadar]

A long time ago I suggested Kinsbaile Cavalier as part of the Angel Stompy package:

ww2
Creature - Knight
Knights you control have double strike.
2/2

At the time, he was rather weak as a standalone who boosted Silver knights a bit. However, in the meantime, a few cards have been printed that demand he gets a second look.

Knight of the Reliquary: Umm, duhh, this guy with double strike is nuts
Steward of Valeron: Essentially werebear in knight form
Knight of the White Orchid: Mana acceleration and a knight
Mirror Entity: Mana intensive, but makes all your guys into big knights

I'm wondering if people think there's some potential here. Obviously Reliquary followed by Kinsbaile swings for at the very least 6 if not 8 or 10 on 4th turn. Not to mention, there's some natural acceleration in the form of knights out there. The real weakness of any deck based around this would be:
1. Combo protection in white and green (though chalice is a possibility)
2. Lack of a good turn 1 drop (though mother of runes might work)

[Guevera59]

Aether Vial as a turn 1 drop seems solid. I think the problem is that the deck needs to curve out to four mana in order to make mediocre creatures have double strike.

[Elfrago]

And what happens if you can't stick a Kinsbaile on the board?
Suddenly your deck looks worse than Nourishing Lich.

[tivadar]

And what happens if you can't stick a Kinsbaile on the board?
Suddenly your deck looks worse than Nourishing Lich.

If you can't stick a kinsbaile, you still have reliquary, who's a powerhouse by himself. In addition, I'm assuming the deck would run jitte given the double strike and vigilance of many of the creatures.

Yes, I realize there are a lot of holes and this rolls over to combo, but was just throwing it out there.

[Manhattan]

Is [SCD] an abbreviation for something retarded? Just think about what the other 4 dropps in the format can do: Elspeth, Moat, Humility, Natural Order, Belcher, Tendrils, Goblin Ringleader, Sower of Temptation. Just where in this list does a 2/2 doublestriker fit in?

[heroicraptor]

Single Card Discussion

[tivadar]

Is [SCD] an abbreviation for something retarded? Just think about what the other 4 dropps in the format can do: Elspeth, Moat, Humility, Natural Order, Belcher, Tendrils, Goblin Ringleader, Sower of Temptation. Just where in this list does a 2/2 doublestriker fit in?

Removed Flame. -Jander

Yes, I'm aware of what other 4-drops can do. He's a 4 drop that can potentially boost all your creatures along with swing. Essentially he's equipment + creature in one. Granted, equipment is bad now, and I realize that, but he's an interesting choice. I didn't post this in the DTB section, I posed it as something for discussion. Given the power of knights now, I hardly view him as retarded.

[Nessaja]

Knight of Meadowgrain
Knight of the Holy Nimbus
Stillmoon Cavelier

are good candidates.

Problem would be, a lack of tribal synergies between Knights and them not really being able to compete with any of the other tribes or tarmogoyf. You need massive amounts of equipment to make this work against aggro decks.

[Manhattan]

Yes, I'm aware of what other 4-drops can do. He's a 4 drop that can potentially boost all your creatures along with swing. Essentially he's equipment + creature in one. Granted, equipment is bad now, and I realize that, but he's an interesting choice. I didn't post this in the DTB section, I posed it as something for discussion. Given the power of knights now, I hardly view him as retarded.

I made that first sentence because the cards discussed in these [SCD]-threads seemed to be rather obscure in general and I had just made a response to the Wargate-thread.
Nonetheless putting this card into a deck with Knight of the Reliquary is hardly a combo. Unless you come up with a whole Knight-deck this guy isn't going anywhere. Thus a single-card discussion is rather moot. It's like "[SCD] Lord of Atlantis (it combos with Force!)".

I'm not going to shout down the idea of a knight deck for Legacy before I have seen your list however I recommend going to the developmental deck subforum for that.

[DrJones]

I would say more like "[SCD] Animate Wall" at it. And I've actually tried to build a knight deck, but knights just aren't that good, except maybe Haakon.

[tivadar]

I would say more like "[SCD] Animate Wall" at it. And I've actually tried to build a knight deck, but knights just aren't that good, except maybe Haakon.

Oh come now, Kinsbaile is at least better than Animate Wall. I've never seen an enchantment swing for 4 damage! But as I said, just putting it out there. Good to know someone's tried a knight's deck to no avail.

[dahcmai]

I was told once by a damned good player that if it costs 4 mana it better damned near turn the tide on it's own. 6 Mana was a game winner right there. 4 Mana says I win the next two turns to me still. Unless it has some sort of combo or some such, I don't play it. This card still says that to me.

Double strike is amazing, don't get me wrong, but it's white weinie that needs something more than a stunt. I have to side with the naysayers on this one.

[heroicraptor]

If there was no distinction between Knight and Soldier (i.e., it was one creature type), then maybe you'd have a deck. As it stands, there just aren't enough good Knights.

[pointofinfo]

In a sense, the deck you are describing is more of a Standard build, as many of the best Knights are in Standard. Maybe if it gave all Goys double strike...

Anyway, I don't see this fitting in Angel Stompy or its shell because practically every Knight (and all the best ones) have CMC 3 or less except Wilt-Leaf Liege and Rafiq, which both take 3 colored mana. The amount of colored mana negates the shell; Meadowgrain, White Orchid, Reliquary, Holy Nimbus, etc. all require 2 colored mana. I think Knights! could be a fun casual Legacy deck, or perhaps a sweet Tribal deck.

To refute Manhattan's point, Lord of Atlantis combos with...Merfolk? The strengths of a given card are entirely relative to the deck it's in. That's called synergy. Cavius' Juzam Djinn deck had none. Ernest Truck's Ichorid deck did. An SCD about Ichorid would no doubt mention its synergistic power as opposed to, say, Ashen Ghoul. Kinsbale Cavalier doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it is stupidiculous with Knight of the Reliquary. It is, therefore, a combo in the original sense of the term: Not a degenerate source of near-infinite repeatable effects, but rather as two powerfully synergistic cards.

P.S. Tivadar, Kinsbale Cavalier's mana cost is 3W, not 2WW.

[Skeggi]

1. Combo protection in white and green (though chalice is a possibility)
Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Orim's Chant... Silence? :wink:

[Elfrago]

If you can't stick a kinsbaile, you still have reliquary, who's a powerhouse by himself. In addition, I'm assuming the deck would run jitte given the double strike and vigilance of many of the creatures.

Yes, I realize there are a lot of holes and this rolls over to combo, but was just throwing it out there.

I prefer playing a deck made of good cards instead of a deck made of "meh" cards with a few more that turn them into ok cards.

[rufus]

I tried to make a Haakon & Knights stax concept deck that dumps cards into the discard and then brings them back with Haakon, but as others have said, Haakon is basically the only good knight mechanic available.

[Malchar]

You always run the risk of developing a reasonable field, attacking into an opponent's field, and then having them kill the Cavalier with combat tricks. Now your entire field shrinks and you lose everything in battle. This is the same reason why Goblins is reluctant to use Goblin King. I think that, for the cost, Cavalier really needs to offer more than just increased damage in order for it to be viable. On top of that, a deck with a number of knights would be only ok at best. It cannot compete with a creature type like slivers.

[Tilde]

I was told once by a damned good player that if it costs 4 mana it better damned near turn the tide on it's own. 6 Mana was a game winner right there. 4 Mana says I win the next two turns to me still. Unless it has some sort of combo or some such, I don't play it. This card still says that to me.

Double strike is amazing, don't get me wrong, but it's white weinie that needs something more than a stunt. I have to side with the naysayers on this one.

The "damned good player" you're thinking of is Zvi Mowshowitz, and he recanted (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/10).