Penalty for drawing too many cards after a mulligan?

[Kuma]

Player A mulls to six but draws seven cards. Player B, his opponent, notices this but doesn't say anything right away (probably hoping to get a free win). Player B plays a Duress and then remarks that Player A has drawn too many cards and calls a judge.

What is the penalty here? Does it change if Player B only just noticed it when he played the Duress? What happens if Player B catches Player A with too many cards before Player A looks at his hand?

What if it can be reasonably determined that Player A cheated instead of making an honest mistake? (i.e. a track record of cheating, witness testimony, etc.)

[Nightmare]

There are all kinds of problems with this scenario. CDR, get his stuff straight.

[cdr]

Player A mulls to six but draws seven cards. Player B, his opponent, notices this but doesn't say anything right away (probably hoping to get a free win). Player B plays a Duress and then remarks that Player A has drawn too many cards and calls a judge.

What is the penalty here?

Cheating - Fraud for player B, disqualification. Not calling a judge in hopes of gaining advantage is pretty much a textbook example of Cheating.

I once had a double disqualification where player A accidentally drew 8 cards, panicked, and then didn't say anything and tried to hide how many cards he had in his hand. However, his opponent B also noticed that A had most likely drawn an extra card, but didn't call a judge for several turns. They were both DQed for Fraud.


Does it change if Player B only just noticed it when he played the Duress?

Improper Draw at Start of Game for player A, warning. Two random cards from A's hand are shuffled back into the library, and A can mulligan after that if he wants. Resolve Duress afterward.


What happens if Player B catches Player A with too many cards before Player A looks at his hand?

The hand has not been drawn yet, put the last card back, no penalty.


What if it can be reasonably determined that Player A cheated instead of making an honest mistake? (i.e. a track record of cheating, witness testimony, etc.)

"A track record" is not going to influence an investigation much - there has to be reasonable evidence (most likely from interviewing the player) that the infraction was intentional.

Intentionally drawing extra cards is Cheating - Manipulation of Game Materials.

[Finn]

Akki, how the hell can you determine if a player knew the other had drawn too many cards and simply waited to say anything? The questions of knowledge and intent have always been hard ones for me to judge in my tournaments.

Is there some sort of Holmes trick or something out of an Asimov novel to help here?

[Malchar]

Akki, how the hell can you determine if a player knew the other had drawn too many cards and simply waited to say anything? The questions of knowledge and intent have always been hard ones for me to judge in my tournaments.

Is there some sort of Holmes trick or something out of an Asimov novel to help here?

Maybe Akki is player B. In this case, it would be important to know what one was getting oneself into.

[Finn]

My bad. Akki=cdr. I keep using his old handle by habit.

[cdr]

Akki, how the hell can you determine if a player knew the other had drawn too many cards and simply waited to say anything? The questions of knowledge and intent have always been hard ones for me to judge in my tournaments.

Is there some sort of Holmes trick or something out of an Asimov novel to help here?

Investigating for cheating is one of the most difficult responsibilities a judge will have. It requires a different skillset than other tasks.

Books could be (and have been) written on everything involved. It's very much like a detective interviewing a crime suspect. When one or more people are possibly lying to you, there's all sorts of things you can do to help you form an opinion - verbal tricks, watching body language, interviewing witnesses, etc, etc.

Not much tends to be written publicly about the subject, since we want cheaters and liars to remain bad at lying and cheating. The best way to learn is from experienced judges - asking an experienced judge how they would have handled a situation is great. Working an event like a GP with a lot of experienced judges (and inevitably some investigations) can be eye-opening. There's quite often investigation-related judge seminars at GPs and PTs.

I think I'm still pretty bad at it, but most people probably feel that way to some degree.

[Finn]

Thanks. I mean, I guess I was hoping for a tonic to give my the ability. But it makes sense that ya just gotta do the legwork to build the skill. And even then, you are not going to be perfect.