A very different approach to goblins

[morgan_coke]

Goblins has been stagnating for awhile now, even as more and newer cards have been released at a power level high enough to help the deck. One of the main reasons for this is that the goblins list is so stagnated due to the power of Matron/Ringleader. The problem with these two cards is that they require all of your cards to be goblins for them to work at a reasonable power level. Especially Ringleader needs a goblin density of 30+ gobs to be effective.

What I'm suggesting is removing the ringleader/matron engine in favor of Standstill and either Brainstorm or Ancestral Visions.

The advantages to Standstill are numerous. With two lackeys creatures and vial, the deck can run 12 "cast spells under standstill" cards, which is even more than most Landstill decks can manage.

The addition of blue also allows for Stifle to be maindecked, helping the LD plan and providing a boost vs. combo decks.

This is a pretty unconventional choice for how to set up a goblin deck, but given the way the deck has been consistently getting worse and worse results, it seems like its past time for a fundamental re-think of how to build and utilize a legacy goblin deck.

Suggested but by no means definitive u/r goblin build:

Goblins
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Warren Instigator
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Goblin Chieftan
4x Siege-Gang Commander

Draw
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm (Ancestral Visions?)

Mana Denial
4x Stifle
2x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Mana
4x Aether Vial
4x Unstable Geyser (probable name of U/R fetch)
1x Island
4x Any other red fetchland mix
5x Mountain
4x Volcanic Island

Additionally, this type of draw engine allows you to side in non-goblin answers to problems without worrying about it messing up your ringleader/matron numbers. The goblins on this list were largely chosen because they interact better with instigator/lackey/chieftan than the traditional includes for a goblins list do.

I'd be interested in hearing what other players think about this type of approach.

[Manhattan]

This idea is not very new. And since it hasn't broke through on the Legacy-scene I'm just going to conclude that it's not good enough without trying to figure out why. It definetly has been tried and didn't work.

[morgan_coke]

previous reasons this concept didn't work:

#1) tried to stay somewhat with ringleader/matron while mainly just adding standstill.
#2) vulnerable manabase due to lack of u/r fetchland.
#3) low number of ways to exploit standstill.
#4) stayed with standard goblin creature base.

This concept/version attempts to address all of those issues, and is largely able to do so solely because of cards that have been printed recently.

[from Cairo]

I think that adding some sort of bounce spell would probably be pretty good. Since the deck is looking to abuse the Lackeys, having some way to force through connects seems really relevant to the deck's interests. The best Legacy choices curve out after Instigator to clear the way. I'm thinking something like Rushing River, giving you the ability to do stuff, like T1 Stifle, T2 Warren Instigator, T3 Rushing River anything in the way, connect, gg. Repeal could be another option, as it also costs 2-3 to remove most early game blockers. Repeal seems really appealing on the play, but I could see it being very swingy when you're on the draw.

I'm not really a fan of Ru Goblins, the deck doesn't need a splash to draw cards. The thing I don't like about these style builds is that one's forced to drop Goblins, really good Goblins at that, Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader. Giving up card advantage that comes as Goblin spell, that can be cheated into play by 12 other cards in the deck to splash Standstill and Brainstorm just seems like a non-improvement.

[Aggro_zombies]

So basically, you're saying that Ringleader and Matron are bad because they require you to run a lot of Goblins, but running eight creatures that put Goblins into play from your hand doesn't require a high commitment to the little red men?

I'm lost here.

Why are you running a total of TWELVE ways to cheat creatures into play for free, but not running the maximum number of creatures? Lackey and Co. aren't really capable of putting Stifle or Standstill into play from your hand, and you haven't addressed why Standstill is a better card than Ringleader, which CAN be cheated into play by all those cards. Basically, the use of a full suite of twelve creature cheats is MORE of a reason to run creatures that can draw/tutor, not less.

[FoulQ]

If I recall, Eldariel was working on this concept for a long time and it didn't work out. I'd talk to him about it.

And I remembered seeing one Goblin Fish deck on deckcheck.

[4eak]

If you've tested Warren Instigator, I think you'd quickly regret removing Matron and Ringleader.

Instigator First Strike Connect->Matron Demonic Tutor->Instigator Normal Connect->Put tutored card into play.

etc.

If I wasn't playing Ringleader/Matron, then I wouldn't play Instigator either.

Additionally, if you aren't concerned about Goblin count, the first four cards in your deck should be:

4x Tarmogoyf

Also, you've got 12 blue cards, I think 4x Force of Will would be worth playing. Hrmm...then I really wouldn't want to be playing any of those red creatures either really. Lol. This looks like a bad merfolk deck which wants to combo SGCs into play through Lackey/Instigator and has nothing else to offer. If I really wanted to play some combo, I'd rather play Dreadnought to go along with my Stifle.

You do need to ask, how is this deck worth playing over Merfolk? Goblin's card quality/advantage dovetails with its tempo bombs, and that is really the main thing it has going for it in this format.



peace,
4eak

[Hanni]

Pretty sure straight Goblins is better, but if you're going this route, you need to have Mutavault. Unless you land a cheater card early, you gotta have a reason to play nothing but lands under Standstill. That or Factory, since your tribal bonuses are weak for Muta's.

Also, if you go this route, you need to be 3c. Weirding is important to make sure your Lackey's/Instigator's connect.

[Arsenal]

Stingscourger is always an option if you're looking to connect with Lackey in the early game.

[electrolyze]

I think if your gonna splash blue, daze would be really good. Especcially to let a t1 lackey connect. If you play it t1, you can counter any thing that can stop a t1 lackey. Also it works well with your mana denial.

[TheBirdMan]

I already play r/u goblins and all you need is daze and its stupid

[Hopo]

Tribal, Standstill but no Mutavault?

[Scrabble]

If you were looking for bounce, Snap works well with Standstill. It'll clear the way for Lackey's and let you play Standstill, all on the same turn.

[Eldariel]

The only reason to play a blue splash is to get Daze/Force/Stifle. Standstill is consideration-worthy, but only if you play Mutavaults which necessities cutting Ports, which in turn makes the whole splash notably worse.

Also, the deck really needs card advantage; I played 4 Matrons and SGCs when I couldn't use Ringleader. The deck works relatively well, but the numbers are tight and it has serious consistency issues. I never pursued it further since I didn't have the time to invest at the point anymore. But yeah, definitely get Matrons in there somehow. They just so happen to be some of the best things to drop off Lackey/Instigator anyways. And you absolutely NEED some removal like Stingscourger and Gempalm. 4-ofs of purely beatdown creatures in a blue shell isn't gonna cut it. What if opponent resolves Goyf with his own Daze/Force? Your gameplan can't honestly be to "win through it".

[Hanni]

If I was honestly going to splash blue, I'd do it for Daze and Daze only (MD anyway).

[Finn]

It's really hard to splash blue into anything. Believe me, I have been trying for ages. Blue really wants to be the primary color of any aggro-control deck it is in. Also, don't do Visions and Standstill in the same deck. They don't play well together. Also, while I would personally never sleeve up Merfolk sans Stifle, there are plenty who have - and done well. It is not worth splashing for. So if you take my advice (and also decide not to go into counterspells) you are down to a single draw effect that you are into blue for, or possibly Brainstorm and Standstill. Oh, and Standstill really needs manlands. Really. So you have some work cut out here.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Yea I've been thinking of running a goblin deck with countertop, goyf, and daze... and brainstorm.. and ponder. Hmm :confused:

Then again, blue splash this could be goblin flectomancer's chance to shine :)

[Hanni]

I posted this in the regular Goblin thread but it got absolutely no feedback, so I'll just post it here to give you an idea of the only blue splash I think would be viable:

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SHM] Boartusk Liege (or Warren Instigator)
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

(The sideboard is just randomly pieced together)

Basically, Goblins has very little wiggle room for extra non-Goblin creatures. Daze is the only blue spell that plays well with the rest of the decks strategy, by protecting early Lackey's, keeping early Goyf's off the board, etc. Through Waste/Port, it can shut down cards like Firespout, Plague, and Wrath of God. It is a massive tempo generator; it costs 0 mana, so doesn't slow down your own game plan (allows you to curve out without holding mana open), while slowing down your opponent's game plan.

Stifle is horrible because it requires that you keep U open when you want to typically be spending every available manasource in the early turns where you'd want it to generate tempo. Counterproductive, IMO.

Standstill is a possibility against certain decks, maybe, but you're forced into running Mutavaults or Factories. I'm not going to comment on the power or viability of it because I haven't tested it.

Brainstorm is a good card but simply dilutes the amount of Goblins you run, effectively weakening cards like Ringleader, which is why I wouldn't run it... and trust me, Ringleader > Brainstorm and Standstill.

[Shanghi Knights]

Yea I've been thinking of running a goblin deck with countertop, goyf, and daze... and brainstorm.. and ponder. Hmm :confused:

Then again, blue splash this could be goblin flectomancer's chance to shine :)

theres not much blue that has a "super" good effect with goblins. but by all means the closest thing is goblin flectomancer


last time i put blue into goblin i was kiki jiki intruder alarm comboing. its only problem was getting to intruder alarm, neither color is good for grabbing enchantments.

But by all means if you wanan switch up a good concept matron/ringleader go for it. i find blue goblins often just under played/estimated so severely that it will never catch the masses attention.