B/w Landfill

[Hanni]

I posted this deck long time ago, and never really kept up with it. I searched through N&D and didn't see anything. Is there already any existing thread for this deck concept? If so, this can be moved there.

I think it's a fairly solid concept though, and one that I haven't seen around in a while. Basically, you take B/w Deadguy Ale and drop the aggro/control aspect for board control. You also increase the amount of LD spells by maxing out on Smallpox. The land destruction gives the deck a great game against control decks. The Vindicates should improve the aggro/control matchups like CounterTop, with it's win conditions and mass removal being out of Counterbalance range. It still has a slight weakness against fast aggro like Goblins, but with the new addition of Path to Exile, it has a versatile answer that also improves Merfolk, Zoo, and so on.

The names pretty cool, IMO. It's a board control deck, but instead of playing blue and going with Standstill, it predominates in black and destroys a bunch of lands. Thus we have Landfill instead of Landstill.

B/w Landfill

Lands (25)
4 B/W Fetch
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

Creatures (3)
3 Tombstalker

Spells (32)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Damnation
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard (15)
4 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Chalice of the Void

The sideboard is just a random throw together right now, with PtE being the only solidified choice. CotV could become Ethersworn Cannonist, for example.

I can see Phyrexian Arena having potential somewhere, just not sure if it's entirely necessary.

Thoughts and suggestions?

[JeroenC]

Just looking at the list, it feels like the deck would like some drawing power added. Night's Whisper or Ambition's Cost, perhaps? I'm just shooting ideas here, I'm not familiar with this type of deck in a competitive setting.

[AngryTroll]

4 Wasteland

4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Vindicate

Sideboard (15)
4 Path to Exile

The sideboard is just a random throw together right now, with PtE being the only solidified choice.

I'd probably rethink Path in the board. There's a fair number of removal spells in black that aren't as good, but don't conflict with your entire mainboard plan. With Thresh and Dreadstill light on lands in the maindeck, the amount of land distruction you are running ruins their day. On the other hand, with enemy fetches, they'll actually be running at least one Forest to go with a few Islands.

Diabolic Edict and Smother are probably both fine for that slot.

How is Smallpox? I'm always solidly on the fence about that card.

[Hanni]

The reason for PtE is strictly against decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo... decks that this sort of strategy have always had problems with. However, Goyf Sligh and Burn are still atrocious (CotV aside), so maybe there's a better option somehow.

I realize that PtE conflicts with the mainboard plan... is there a better answer for the above mentioned decks, though? I guess maybe Innocent Blood could be a replacement for PtE.

-4 PtE
+4 Innocent Blood

I'll test that out.

Smallpox isn't the best spell in the deck, but it's alot better in here than in typical Deadguy. This deck rarely has an active creature on board when it needs to cast Smallpox, and Smallpox is an additional LD compliment. Fairly good in testing so far.

[brattin]

I was just looking through my collection and saw a playset of Encroach. I don't know if this card has ever been discussed. I suck at formatting things, so I'm not even gonna try: it's a sorcery, costs B, and is a Duress for nonbasic lands. I'm thinking a turn one encroach followed by a smallpox or a wasteland or a sinkhole is setting yourself up to win against a whole lot of decks. Of course, it's a miserable topdeck and it's bad against merfolk, but depending on the local metagame I don't think that'll be a big problem.

Worth consideration, anyway.

Also, Rishadan Port has been good to me in the past. Probably this deck has too many color requirements, though.

[f|i[p]]

OK... how about ghostly prisons in the sideboard as well..This helps against tribal decks.. and slows them down enough for you to get damnations or whatever.... This also goes very well with the Land destruction suite you have... Its also good vs ichorid ...

If you have time you can also test 2 Ob Nixilis, as he can usually come down when you have disrupted your opponent enough...and just wait for land drops which with 25 lands and fetches will usually hit 3-6 a turn..I'm not sure if you want to drop tombstalker early though.

I was also wondering if thoughtseize was soo important in this deck... You have ton's of creature control.. Is -2 life worth it...Maybe a simple duress can work.

Urborg Tomb of yawgmoth in one of your land slots...

Ill quickly build this up in mws and test it out..Maybe tweak a thing or 2 in there...

[Master Shake]

This deck seriously has only 7 cards that can win the game? At least run a Haunting Echoes in the main.

[Hanni]

This deck seriously has only 7 cards that can win the game? At least run a Haunting Echoes in the main.

Is that really any different from the win conditions typical Landstill runs?

4 Factory
2 Elspeth
2 Decree

In this case, the 1 MD Crucible is somewhat a win condition, but could just as easily be a Haunting Echoes. Either way, it seems like a minor difference.

[AngryTroll]

Decree is uncounterable.

You have 4 Factory, 1 Crucible, and 3 Tombstalker. That's...probably fine. But I like the idea of adding a Haunting Echoes or something hard to answer.

[from Cairo]

The reason for PtE is strictly against decks like Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo... decks that this sort of strategy have always had problems with. However, Goyf Sligh and Burn are still atrocious (CotV aside), so maybe there's a better option somehow.

I realize that PtE conflicts with the mainboard plan... is there a better answer for the above mentioned decks, though? I guess maybe Innocent Blood could be a replacement for PtE.

-4 PtE
+4 Innocent Blood

I'll test that out.

Smallpox isn't the best spell in the deck, but it's alot better in here than in typical Deadguy. This deck rarely has an active creature on board when it needs to cast Smallpox, and Smallpox is an additional LD compliment. Fairly good in testing so far.

Spinning Darkness could be good, with the amount of Fetches and low cc spells it shouldn't be hard to satisfy it's alternate cost. The added benefit of gaining life against agro is awesome, especially Zoo. Though the GY reliance may be too much with Tombstalker's Delve also competing.


Also, have you considered the new Landfall guy that costs BB, and returns to play when you play lands? Could make for some good synergy with Crucible, and Small Pox, and might make running Cabal Therapy in the board an option. Idk he might be underwhelming too, I haven't tested him in anything yet, but he looks like a good fit here if anywhere.

[Roman Candle]

Isn't there a fundamental flaw with playing 1-for-1 land destruction in a deck that can't take advantage of the tempo gain?

[Zinch]

Spinning Darkness could be good, with the amount of Fetches and low cc spells it shouldn't be hard to satisfy it's alternate cost. The added benefit of gaining life against agro is awesome, especially Zoo. Though the GY reliance may be too much with Tombstalker's Delve also competing.



Sadly, Spinning Darkness removes only black cards from the graveyard, so no fetchlands abuse. It's sad, because I love this card, but with the release of tarmogoyf it has lost a lot of its potential.

[Hanni]

Isn't there a fundamental flaw with playing 1-for-1 land destruction in a deck that can't take advantage of the tempo gain?

I was waiting for someone to ask that.

If you look at the old B/w Deadguy Ale decks of old, they ran a creature base of:

Dark Confidant
Nantuko Shade
Hypnotic Specter

Dark Confidant is not a very good aggro threat, and while it occasionally was able to push damage through, didn't do so with great consistency. Beyond him, we have essentially two other guys who do the bulk of damage.

In here, I run Factory and Tombstalker instead. So in comparison, the threat density is slightly less. It doesn't capitalize on the tempo quite as well, but it adds additional LD and creature removal to compensate. So in essence, it's not a drastic difference.

Plus, with so many LD spells, it's easy to simply lock some games completely out, tempo or not.

[Roman Candle]

I was waiting for someone to ask that.

If you look at the old B/w Deadguy Ale decks of old, they ran a creature base of:

Dark Confidant
Nantuko Shade
Hypnotic Specter

Dark Confidant is not a very good aggro threat, and while it occasionally was able to push damage through, didn't do so with great consistency. Beyond him, we have essentially two other guys who do the bulk of damage.

In here, I run Factory and Tombstalker instead. So in comparison, the threat density is slightly less. It doesn't capitalize on the tempo quite as well, but it adds additional LD and creature removal to compensate. So in essence, it's not a drastic difference.

Plus, with so many LD spells, it's easy to simply lock some games completely out, tempo or not.

Nantuko Shade and Hypnotic Spectre were both tempo cards, however. And aside from that, aren't any comparisons to Deadguy Ale moot considering the fact that it currently is and probably always was a shitty deck?

And your argument that playing more LD spells and removal spells takes the place of threats is counter-intuitive. You're playing more control cards and less ways to take advantage of tempo. That doesn't make any sense.

[workingdude]

I'm having a hard time understanding why you guys arent calling this what it actually is.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27797

Run phyrexian arena, if you arent running something like nether spirit, which will provide advantage on an empty board.

[Hanni]

More LD prolongs the tempo advantage, and the deck doesn't necessarily need to create tempo advantage to win anyway. This is a control deck, afterall. What do control decks want to do? Survive until the mid-late. Isn't that what this accomplishes? So instead of utilizing aggro/control to chip at the opponent with an offset manabase, it denies the opponent from having lands. Considering that this deck has 25 lands and most decks don't, it get's to make land drops more consistently, thus jumping ahead in the mana race. Makes sense from a control standpoint.

Plus, Factory and Tombstalker are just as much tempo as Shade and Specter when looking at them as aggressive damage dealers. Specter was a 3cc 2/2... sure it has random discard, but it's damage capabilites are slower than that of Tombstalker. Shade requires large mana investments to be pumped effectively, and while Factory requires a little too, it's still not a dramatic difference in damage dealt early. Factory beats and Tombstalkers can still end games rather quickly when the opponent cannot play anything. Maybe not as fast, but fast enough, and this deck doesn't rely on the tempo generated to carry it through; it runs a ton of creature removal and more LD.

This deck is not Tier 1 quality. However, I fail to see how it's not Tier 2. It improves most of the matchups that old Deadguy had with very little sacrifice against the other matchups.

[Benie Bederios]

Hanni,

Have you ever looked at this deck?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22644

There might be some idea's for your deck, like Ajani Goldmane and Bitterblossom as kill. Also Finks/Shriekmaw and Volrath's Stronghold to generate cardadvantage.

Even Fact or Fiction is an idea, it's not a though splash for a card with U and a CC of 4.

Benie