[SCD] Flametongue Kavu

[AngryTroll]

Is Flametongue Kavu playable again? Looking at the DTB Forum, he is pretty terrible against Landstill and Thresh, but the number of creatures that see play that he kills has drastically increased since Survival stopped running him when Goyf replaced Werebear.

Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk are all Decks to Beat, and Kavu kills everything in Zoo except Goyf (and 2 Knight of the Reliquary in the lists that run him over Thoctar) and everything in the tribal decks. In the Established Forum, Kavu eats everything (except Goyf and Progenitus) in EPIC Elves, Dragonstompy, and a lot of the tier 2.5 or tier 3 decks.

On the downside, he does a poor job of dealing with Tarmogoyf (2cc), Dreadnought (2cc), Tombstalker (2cc), and Progenitus (4cc). The creatures he really shines against (mainly Merfolk, Elves, Goblins, and Fish) are all much more vulnerable to Volcanic Fallout and Firespout than they are to Kavu. By the time you can spend four mana on a removal spell, killing one Lord of Atlantis and blocking and killing one more dude may not be enough to turn the tide back into your favor.

Shriekmaw sees play, and Kavu does a much better job killing Dark Confidant than Maw does. Kavu is also much better at setting up two for ones, but Shriekmaw's 2cc means that you can play him before it's too late against Goblins and Elves.

So, is Kavu playable? If not, is it Tarmogoyf, Firespout, Shriekmaw, or his CC of 4 instead of 3 that keeps him from seeing play?

[Aggro_zombies]

He doesn't kill Tarmogoyf and dies to pretty much everything in combat. All that for the low, low price of only four mana!

EDIT: Generally, if you have to make a [SCD] thread to ask if a card is viable, in 99.9999% of cases, it won't be.

[SilverGreen]

Why wouldn't people play more Nekrataals, or Dakmor Lancers, or Crater Hellions? I wasn't even able to see your point here. Why WOULD do we play with it in the end? You gave a lot of reasons we wouldn't all by yourself already.

[AngryTroll]

Well, with Birds or Noble Heirarchs (and a different red sorce), dropping a turn two Goyf and a turn three Kavu is pretty savage against a lot of decks.

[SilverGreen]

Well, with Birds or Noble Heirarchs (and a different red sorce), dropping a turn two Goyf and a turn three Kavu is pretty savage against a lot of decks.Birds? Hierarchs? Perhaps some Orcish Lumberjacks and Tinder Walls also?

[Shanghi Knights]

just use volcano hellion, if you can pay the echo to keep him on the field obviously he can do more than kavu ever could.

[AngryTroll]

Birds? Hierarchs? Perhaps some Orcish Lumberjacks and Tinder Walls also?


just use volcano hellion, if you can pay the echo to keep him on the field obviously he can do more than kavu ever could.

I can't tell if people are trolling or not.

The decks that want to use Kavu over Firespout are limited, but they do exist. I guess you can sum up the question like this:

In a deck like Survival that has a pretty decent Thresh and Dreadstill matchup, but struggles with Goblins and Zoo, is Kavu a reasonable choice again, or is Shriekmaw still the better choice?

Can Kavu ever fit into a deck like Zoo in an aggro-heavy metagame, or is whatever burn spell you use after Bolt and Helix better? In a meta without much pure control and a lot of aggro, Kavu might be better than Price of Progress, for example.

[Brushwagg]

I've began running 2x FTK again in my Survival build.

Pretty much this sums it up as to why.


Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk are all Decks to Beat, and Kavu kills everything in Zoo except Goyf (and 2 Knight of the Reliquary in the lists that run him over Thoctar) and everything in the tribal decks.

My list for reference:

// Lands
1 Plains
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
7 Forest

// Creatures
1 Progenitus
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Ranger of Eos

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Natural Order
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 3 Pyroblast

[(nameless one)]

I saw FTK once on a zoo deck, much to my surprise. But like what was said, it's pretty frail on combat.

[XSivPSI]

I ran two in Dragon Stompy in a tourny a couple weeks ago and it was usually a 2 for 1. Also won me the mirror taking out his threat then carried a a SoFI ftw. Was good at taking out big merfolk lords as well.

[Elfrago]

This:

He doesn't kill Tarmogoyf and dies to pretty much everything in combat. All that for the low, low price of only four mana!


And also, it's not a may ability, you have to shoot something, even himself if nothing else is on the board. And that makes him awful against control.

[Brushwagg]

FTK isn't going to make it back to where it was. But it does have it uses again.

[AngryTroll]

FTK isn't going to make it back to where it was. But it does have it uses again.

Since Goyf was printed, FTK has seen almost no play. I think it's interesting (and a healthy indication about the current metagame) that he is at at least playable again.

Kavu can randomly remove Bridges from Below. It's not often relevant, but once in a while it'll win you games.

[Shanghi Knights]

hes no goyf killer but if you got red use him against goblins, zoo and more. Least in zoo he also has possibility of netting you 4 life if they swords him. but i don't seem them wasting a swords on him if given the chance. (highly improbable but not impossible.)

[DragoFireheart]

The problem for the classic FTK is that he is too much for too little. We live in a format where 4-5 mana spells should win the game or do something major. When I pay 4+ mana for a spell, I want it to slap the shit out of the opponent if they don't answer it.

Humility, Elspeth Knight-Errant, Siege-Gang Commander, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils of Agony, Sower of Temptation, etc.

FTK, at best, kills a 4-toughness creature and is a 4/2 beater. That is not significant and doesn't say "Answer me or die!"

[Brushwagg]

What kind of a deck are you talking about putting FTK in? It's not going to fit every deck. I use it now as a tool box creature in Survival. It's not going to go in Zoo etc..