Flash Poll: Happy with the Banned List Changes?

[Clark Kant]

I just want to take a quick flash poll, before decklists start popping up what the reaction of the legacy community to the changes is.

The vote is public by the way. If some crazy combo pops up and destroys legacy, I don't want a bunch of people complaining that Wizards should've seen it coming if they didn't see it coming either.


Frankly, I see no problem with having Land Tax, Frantic Search, Illusionary Mask, Black Vise, Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Windfall AND Grim Monolith come off of the banned list. Atleast temporarily till we figure out if any of those cards actually are broken and which are just good, and which are outright unplayable junk.

Btw, the 100 character limit forced me to append the second poll option but it should read...

"I like the unbannings and I think a few other cards (Land Tax, Illusionary Mask perhaps even Frantic Search, Windfall, Black Vise, Earthcraft, Mind Twist, and Grim Monolith) should be unbanned next time."

[(nameless one)]

We could have a new deck archetype that runs Dream Halls. Also Reanimation decks could be the next big thing. Staxx, maybe Affinity and Dredge decks definitely got some boost.

[Arctic_Slicer]

I'm actually surprised they did something besides the predictable "no changes" we see 4 times a year. More surprising is the cards they chose to unban, MetalWorker and Entomb are cards I expected to stay banned for a long time especially with weaker cards like Land Tax and Mind Twist remaining banned. I was also expecting more than a paragraph from Tom LaPille explaining the changes but whatever.

[(nameless one)]

I know. It's like they had a lottery for the best candidates and the forementioned 3 got drawn.

[Clark Kant]

Yes, those three choices seem random.

Other than the five other candidates I mentioned above (Black Vise, Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Grim Monolith and Land Tax), is there anything else that you think would be safe to unban.

Would Frantic Search be safe to unban? Aside from Solidarity, what decks would play the card? And if solidarity becomes slightly more viable, I don't see any thing wrong with that.

I can't believe I forgot to mention Illusionary Mask. There is no good reason at all why this card shouldn't come off of the banned list.

Is Memory Jar safe? Unless we see WelderStax emerge as a force in the next few months which seems EXTREMELY unlikely, I dont see any problems with unbanning it.

I'm 90% sure that Oath of Druids, Windfall and Tolarian Academy shouldn't come off of the list just because they're powerful effects. But I'm also fairly sure that modern legacy could handle them, atleast the latter two, without much disruption.


It would benefit legacy to have a banned list consisting of only ante cards, the very most unbalanced cards and the cards that would clearly wreck the format, and nothing else beyond that be banned.

Having such a list would really distinguish us as a format from Vintage even more.

[Skeggi]

I can't believe I forgot to mention Illusionary Mask. There is no good reason at all why this card shouldn't come off of the banned list.
I think it's banned at the moment purely because of the wording. No-one understands the card if they don't already know what it does.

[Clark Kant]

I doubt the card would even see play, not when you have Stifle, Trickbind and Vision Charm to bring Dreadnought into play, so I don't see that being a reason for concern.

Just tell newbs that ask about it that it basically gives all your creatures Morph.

[Skeggi]

Well... that's not exactly true, is it? The creatures are 0/1 and have X mask counters on them; you don't automatically cast them for :3:. So it's a bit more complicated than that. Basically every time Illusionary Mask is played, a judge will have to be called to explain the Oracle wording. So I think that's the reason, like it or not...

[Clark Kant]

Basically every time Illusionary Mask is played, a judge will have to be called...

which would happen how often, maybe once every 5 major tournaments if that. This isn't standard. The card is legal in Vintage and was legal in legacy till the lists split. I think we can handle it.

[Skeggi]

Yeah. I didn't say it was a good reason...

[luma]

Well... that's not exactly true, is it? The creatures are 0/1 and have X mask counters on them; you don't automatically cast them for :3:. So it's a bit more complicated than that. Basically every time Illusionary Mask is played, a judge will have to be called to explain the Oracle wording. So I think that's the reason, like it or not...

Creatures played with Illusionary Mask are 2/2.

The problem is, that you need to keep track of the mana you used to play the creature, and the problems that arise if you didn't use the right mana. For example, if you play a Goblin Warchief thru Mask, you need to use at least 1RR to play it (you can pay more, but the creature needs to be playable with the mana you use). Then, what happens if you didn't pay enough / right kind of mana, and two turns later the creature is turned face up? A judge is called, what's the penalty and do you keep your creature? I guess Mask is banned just because of its complexity.

[BreathWeapon]

I can't believe I forgot to mention Illusionary Mask. There is no good reason at all why this card shouldn't come off of the banned list.

Is Memory Jar safe? Unless we see WelderStax emerge as a force in the next few months which seems EXTREMELY unlikely, I dont see any problems with unbanning it.



You seriously, seriously don't want to give TES Memory Jar. Illusionary Mask is fine tho', it'd be sweet to Enlightened Tutor for both the Mask/Nought and Balance/Top combos.

[Skeggi]

Creatures played with Illusionary Mask are 2/2.
That's funny, magiccards.info is giving the wrong Oracle text.

[luma]

That's funny, magiccards.info is giving the wrong Oracle text.

Yeah, they haven't updated the latest Oracle changes yet (kicker wording, Mask errata for example).

[Skeggi]

So, a legal Illusionary Mask makes all 1 mana creatures a 1 mana 2/2... super! Or even better: the Kobolds, Ornithopters and Phyrexian Walkers are 2/2 for :0: :laugh:

That card should be unbanned, this sounds like fun :smile:

[undone]

Black Vise: This card is actualy still a little too good in the format, if we had another cycle of playable pitch spells it wouldnt be but as it stands this card is simply too good as a T1 vice frequently will be 1 deal at least 5 damage to target player. That card is simply too strong IMO.

Earthcraft: Why is this on the banned list again? Oh right it infinates with another card useful on its own, we totaly dont have that in a better color set *COUGH SWANS CHAIN COUGH*

Mind Twist: This one is too good, unbanning this would cause metagames to degenerate into "Who twisted away 3/4 cards first" B is so much less than BB.

Grim Monolith:Im on the fence about this one. It is broken but in such a way that is less broken than LED/Chrome mox/Mox diamond which makes me feel like its inconsistent.

Land Tax: Blah blah blah scroll rack blah blah blah Should come off but be watched blah blah blah every one is in agreement blah blah blah bitch bitch bitch blah blah blah

Dream Halls: Dear wizards, still too god damn good. Consider the following. The dream halls deck would largely be a MUC deck that could actualy win the freeking game and play 12 REAL draw spells (4 FOF 4 ancestral visions!! 4 thirst for knowlage.) It ends up being a fight to resolve 1 card that automaticaly wins the game and all you have to be doing to play that "resolve to win me" card is play a deck thats already teir 1.5, its too freeking good (partialy due to ancesteral visions being a card) the kill takes up a measly 5 slots in the deck and 4 of those 5 win the game instantly on thier own the last card (brainfreeze I believe) will be cast with about 2 FOW and a counterspell or two backup. Its alot like adnauseam accept instead of "Put me in combo I cant play/pitch to FOW" it goes in control and all your "combo peices" draw cards and pitch to FOW.

@ people who even mentioned memory jar, Shooting you is far too kind we should put you on doctor phil to figure out what your mental disablity is.

@ people who said illusionary mask, This card is banned for the same reason shaaharazad is banned, it causes massive technechal headachs.

@ frantic search, still a little strong, makes solidaridy a force to be reconed with (As its basicaly the card that pushes the deck over the edge for consistencey/speed.) I would welcome it but I think its still not "Safe"

[RogueMTG]

Frantic Search I would argue is safe. Sure it makes Solidarity a bit better consistency wise, but does it really fix any of Solidarity's "scoop to CB" problems? ....probably not.

Land Tax people have been complaining about forever. The only explanation I can come up with is that "turns/games will take forever if people use it". Upkeep: Tax > Shuffle > Top > Decide > Reorder > Draw. Every turn, could be a little obnoxious.

Black Vise would make me nervous but I'd be willing to see how it goes.

[Bryant Cook]

As long as they leave my deck alone I don't care. Unless they want to throw me a Desire or two.

[emidln]

Earthcraft will remained banned as long as Combo Elves exists. If you haven't seen Earthcraft-infused Vintage or Classic Elfball, I suggest looking into it.

Also, my deck wasn't affected. Largely don't care, except now my Serenities will be better against the idiots playing Metalworker.

[ClearSkies]

The confusion of Illusionary Mask is pretty funny. It really shows how confusing that card is. I still have no idea how it works.

The cards that came off the lists doesn't seem to be powerful enough to warp the format, but yet at the same time, can (potentially) add some interesting stuff in Legacy for awhile.

[Clark Kant]

I don't know how seriously I can take people saying Earthcraft, Black Vise etc are too powerful or would break the format.

Those same statements were consistently made about Entomb, Metalworker, and atleast one or two people are still making them about all those cards including Dream Halls.

I mean take a look at threads like this... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13531

We'll find out in a few weeks if all the fears that were previously expressed about Entomb and such pan out. IF they don't and these cards don't harm legacy, I see nothing wrong with unbanning the other cards that were brought up here as well, well except for Memory Jar, I forgot how good that card would be in storm based combo

For example, against some control decks, Black Vise is good, but good enough to warrant playing in the sideboard, that seems doubtful. And against most of the format, it seems weaker (less consistent) than Wild Nacatl or Lightning Bolt etc.

Sure, in theory, IF you get Black Vise into play on turn one, it can deal ~4 damage. But anytime other than turn one, the card will whiff against most decks in the format. That seems to me to be a lot less flexible and more conditional than Lighting Bolt. Even if Black Vise were to have text that allowed it to consistently do 4 damage every time it's played, even when it's top decked after turn one, I don't see how that would be so powerful as to warrant a banning.

What decks would play Black Vise? Burn might, just because it has little hoping of winning once it's gotten to the midgame. But decks like Zoo and such have better more flexible and consistent options. And the card while good against combo, isnt good enough to warrant sideboard slots imo.

That's just one example. I think if we looked into it, all the cards that I mentioned might see play in a deck or two, but none of those decks would be overpowered as a result.

If Entomb got unbanned while Ichorid is tier one, I don't see much reason why Frantic Search can't get unbanned while Solidarity isn't even viable and Black Vise can't get unbanned while Burn is still tier two and such.

[clavio]

I picked couldn't care less, although Id really like to see goyf get banned. And maybe LED.

Mind Twist needs to stay banned for sure. Black Vise should probably stay banned too, although I would definitely play it.

Dream halls is going to be crappy. Fun, but crappy.

[emidln]

I don't know how seriously I can take people saying Earthcraft, Black Vise etc are too powerful or would break the format.


Have you ever tested Earthcraft in Combo Elves? I've tested it and played with and against it on Magic Online Classic. The deck is degenerate.

Every creature you play adds G to your manapool. Hivemaster isn't as degenerate (and might not be playable) without Skullclamp, but everything else you play auto-adds at least G. In simple terms, Improved Heritage Druids 5-8. Think the deck was just a little inconsistent before? Add 4 Earthcraft.

In fact, that you don't see the obvious applications kinda makes me question you as a deckbuilder and player.

[Clark Kant]

Okay then, post the decklist.

Rather than take your word for it, I would like to see for myself how degenerate elves get by having access to a 2cc enchantment that lets you tap your elves to generate a mana (untap a land) is.

Especially considering that the deck already has 1cc elves that do the same thing and are actually synergic with the rest of the deck. This card actually seems to have poor synergy with Heritage Druid despite your claims to the contrary.

Elf combo has always been a decent deck. But I don't see how this 2cc enchantment breaks that deck in half though when it already has access to Heritage Druid. But by all means, post the list so that we can determine that for ourselves.

[Kuma]

In Legacy, Black Vise reads: Target control player loses the game, or Target aggro or combo player takes 4-12 damage.

And it's stupid, stupid good in multiples.

Even though it's a poor topdeck against aggro and combo, it's way too powerful against control at almost any phase of the game.

All for the low, low price of :1:

Keep it banned.

[rockout]

In Legacy, Black Vise reads: Target control player loses the game, or Target aggro or combo player takes 4-12 damage.

And it's stupid, stupid good in multiples.

Even though it's a poor topdeck against aggro and combo, it's way too powerful against control at almost any phase of the game.

All for the low, low price of :1:

Keep it banned.

If wizards wants to make control basically unplayable, then they can unban black vise. I remember drafting black vise during an MTGO Masters Edition 3 draft and I had first pick black vise. Needless to say my opponent was at 4 life or les before he got vise under control. Stupidly good. Keep it banned.

[MattH]

If wizards wants to make control basically unplayable, then they can unban black vise. I remember drafting black vise during an MTGO Masters Edition 3 draft and I had first pick black vise. Needless to say my opponent was at 4 life or les before he got vise under control. Stupidly good. Keep it banned.

I think I see the problem here. Are you assuming that the average legacy card costs 3-5 mana? ME3 is incredibly slow, it's not a fair comparison. Vise would be okay, but not especially awesome, in any kind of aggro deck. It's pretty bad when the control decks are dumping cards to play out Tops, Goyfs, FoW, StifleNaught, stp your guy, etc., combined with mulligans and sometimes the Vise player is on the draw.

The real reason to keep Vise banned is Stax, a deck which just got one of its wishes granted.

[Clark Kant]

In Legacy, Black Vise reads: Target control player loses the game, or Target aggro or combo player takes 4-12 damage.

No I'm not the least bit convinced that it reads that. I think it might say, Target control player takes 5-6 damage if you managed to resolve Black Vise first turn, which is about the same as what Wild Nactl says.

Target aggro or combo player takes 3-4 damage if you manage to resolve this turn one, which is about what Lightning Bolt says.

Except that neither Wild Nactl nor Lightning Bolt suck to the same extent if top decked.

I'm not saying that Black Vise is a bad card, or that it won't see play. Just as I would never say that Entomb. Both are clearly good cards, and probably will see play in some decks.

I'm just saying that it's not broken.


And it's stupid, stupid good in multiples.
No, I'm not convinced of that either. Good, yes, stupid good to the point of warranting a ban, no I'm not convinced that two Black Vise in your opening turn with the help of acceleration is any better than two Wild Nactal in your opening turn with the help of acceleration.

Does anyone want to make the case that unbanning Frantic Search would seriously disrupt the format?

[Belgareth]

No, I'm not convinced of that either. Good, yes, stupid good to the point of warranting a ban, no I'm not convinced that two Black Vise in your opening turn with the help of acceleration is any better than two Wild Nactal in your opening turn with the help of acceleration.

Then you clearly don't know how good it is.
2 vises turn 1 = 6 damage then likely another 4, thats half their life gone in 2 turns.

[Clark Kant]

Then you clearly don't know how good it is.
2 vises turn 1 = 6 damage then likely another 4, thats half their life gone in 2 turns.

I'm not debating that that's powerful. But two Wild Nactal first turn does the same ting.

But this is only possible by playing two cards on turn one with help of acceleration (Chrome Mox, ESG etc). That's practically a god hand.

So you've spend 3 cards to do 10 damage, about the same card to damage ratio as Lava Spike. How is that all that all that much different from playing 2 Wild Nactal on turn one.

Once again, not saying it's not powerful or that the card won't be played. Just wondering if it warrants it's ban.

Maybe you're right and it does, we're just running in circles. So let's spend more time discussing some of the other cards that could be unbanned next time.

[Zinch]

I'm really happy of this unbans. They open new strategies in the metagame. And I'm happy because this open the door of other unbanning. I'd love to se frantic search unbanned (I don't think is broken an Solidarity is one of my favourite decks).

I hope Wizads read this... :tongue:

EDIT: Maybe they don't unban Black Vise for fear of a Stasis resurgence... lol

[georgjorge]

I'm kinda worried about Entomb breaking some decks, but I REALLY like the additional design space opened up by its non-broken (but still decent) applications, like Bridge from Below, Anger, Ancient Grudge, Wonder etc. Some of those are rather easy to splash into decks, and it gives a lot of decks more options which direction they want to take.

[DragoFireheart]

Black Vise > Control Decks.

Put it in a nuts aggro deck like Zoo and it would only have issues with combo.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not debating that that's powerful. But two Wild Nactal first turn does the same ting.

But this is only possible by playing two cards on turn one with help of acceleration (Chrome Mox, ESG etc). That's practically a god hand.

So you've spend 3 cards to do 10 damage, about the same card to damage ratio as Lava Spike. How is that all that all that much different from playing 2 Wild Nactal on turn one.

Once again, not saying it's not powerful or that the card won't be played. Just wondering if it warrants it's ban.

Maybe you're right and it does, we're just running in circles. So let's spend more time discussing some of the other cards that could be unbanned next time.


Cats can be blocked.

Cats die to common creature removal.

Cats lose to Humility.

[luma]

So, a legal Illusionary Mask makes all 1 mana creatures a 1 mana 2/2... super! Or even better: the Kobolds, Ornithopters and Phyrexian Walkers are 2/2 for :0: :laugh:

Yeah, but only until they would become tapped or deal/receive damage :wink:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The easier way to determine if Black Vise is broken is to unban it and see whether or not it needs to be rebanned in three months. We don't have a GP coming up, and I've little patience for the hypotheticals.

[Akuma]

Lol @ all the people saying things like "Mind Twist is too good!" or "Black Vise > Control decks".

It is better that WotC unban cards like these from time to time so we can try them out and see where they stand in today's environment. Let's face it, --YOU-- don't know if they are good or not. We hear this kind of talk all the time (lots of armchair quarterbacks), and then after the cards are actually unbanned we find out that they are fine or junk. Same kind of thing happens in Vintage, most of the time said super-broken cards end up being useless (ie. Black Vise, Mind Twist, Dream Halls).

Please leave wild speculation at home. That thread discussing the unbanning of cards like Entomb and Dream Halls is downright comical, especially in retrospect.

Re: Illusionary Mask - WotC recently issued errata that destroys the card's playability. If they did unban it, no one would use it because it SUCKS

[Clark Kant]

The easier way to determine if Black Vise is broken is to unban it and see whether or not it needs to be rebanned in three months. We don't have a GP coming up...

Yeah, I actually think that's the best approach, for ALL of the cards brought up in this thread so far with the exception of Memory Jar.

Just unban them and see which of them, if any need to be rebanned. It would keep the format interesting and fun. And I think most legacy players would like it.

The flash poll suggests that atleast 85% of legacy players here are happy to have Entomb unbanned, even though a thread asking if it's broken just a few months ago indicated that most of the players here do think Entomb is broken or breakable and would promptly get rebanned.

What this suggests is that for the questionable cards that a lot of legacy players here think are likely broken, they don't mind having the card be unbanned, even if they think it'll just end up getting rebanned later.

It makes sense. What better way to figure out what cards are safe than to let them into the format for a bit when there ISN'T a GP scheduled, and see what happens.

[m03]

The problem is, that you need to keep track of the mana you used to play the creature, and the problems that arise if you didn't use the right mana. For example, if you play a Goblin Warchief thru Mask, you need to use at least 1RR to play it (you can pay more, but the creature needs to be playable with the mana you use). Then, what happens if you didn't pay enough / right kind of mana, and two turns later the creature is turned face up? A judge is called, what's the penalty and do you keep your creature? I guess Mask is banned just because of its complexity.

It's simpler than that because there's only about 2 creatures that anyone will ever play with Mask, one of them costs 1 and the other costs 1G.

[beastman]

I just want them to unban land tax.

[Kuma]

I know it's pointless to argue with you, but I'm bored at work so I'm going to try anyway.


No I'm not the least bit convinced that it reads that. I think it might say, Target control player takes 5-6 damage if you managed to resolve Black Vise first turn, which is about the same as what Wild Nactl says.

Target aggro or combo player takes 3-4 damage if you manage to resolve this turn one, which is about what Lightning Bolt says.

Assume a starting hand of seven cards and playing two cards per turn.

Turn one Black Vise leads to 3+2+1 = 6 damage. That's the aggro player's best case scenario for his first three turns. If he keeps a land light hand or gets bad topdecks, he's in for a world of hurt from the Black Vise alone.

Of course most control decks don't play two cards per turn, and if they do it's often something like Brainstorm, Ponder, or Daze which replaces itself in their hand. Black Vise singlehandedly beats any Loam strategy while forcing Thresh and Landstill to deal with it or else.


Except that neither Wild Nactl nor Lightning Bolt suck to the same extent if top decked.

I've never said otherwise, but neither of those cards have the early game potential of Black Vise, nor do they singlehandedly destroy an entire archetype (Loam) while giving other types fits.

For the cost of :1:

[Akuma]

@ Kuma - Last I checked, Black Vise is not uncounterable or indestructible. When Black Vise was good, you know, back in the early 90's, there really weren't that many ways to remove it, that is no longer the case. I'm not saying Black Vise would be bad, but I think your assertions are blown way out of proportion...

It kills Loam? How so?

[Bardo]

The easier way to determine if Black Vise is broken is to unban it and see whether or not it needs to be rebanned in three months. We don't have a GP coming up, and I've little patience for the hypotheticals.
With Gush, I think the DCI is leery about the "lets unban this dangerous card and see if we need to ban it again" approach.

I'd rather see an experiment where a play group or groups unbans the card and does some vaguely scientific testing with unbanned Vise, trying to find the right deck, and see if it affects the metagame to an "unfun" degree.

From my days playing MtG in 1994, I'm happy to see Black Vise on the Banned List. The card is no fun at all and would make control considerably less viable than it already is.

[scrumdogg]

-Snip Unbanning Entomb is probably a mistake, proposing the unban of some of the other cards is simple lunacy given what they do. Frantic Search? Grim Monolith? Black Vise? Why would you want to screw with the equilibrium of the format? Unless the motive is to have an unbalanced format & attempt to exploit that...in which case, fuck that in the ear.

[Barook]

Re: Illusionary Mask - WotC recently issued errata that destroys the card's playability. If they did unban it, no one would use it because it SUCKS
What kind of errata are we talking about here? Is this still the latest Oracle text?

Oracle link (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=illusionary%20mask)

The current Oracle text sounds quite broken if I understand it correctly. Dropping Progenitus for :0: into play and go to town as soon as I attack or it becomes target of a spell? :eyebrow:

[Humphrey]

No, u need to pay Progenitus CC but colorless + what u want to pay for hiding it

{X}: Put a creature card with converted mana cost X or less from your hand into play face down as a 0/1 creature. Put X mask counters on that creature. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery. The creature's controller may turn the creature face up any time he or she could play an instant by removing all mask counters from it. This effect ends if the creature is turned face up. [Oracle 2005/08/01]

I wonder why they removed the "must turned at any interaction" clause

About the other cards:

Land Tax - Id be ok with this one
Frantic Search - Solidarity likes this, but there is enough combo hate now i think
Illusionary Mask - Stupid Wording, but not a broken card
Black Vise - the problem with this card, every deck can and might run it. If ur opponent is manascrewed or has slow play, he dies to it. its to powerfull even when 1cc cards die to EE and other stuff real quick
Earthcraft - absolutely broken
Mind Twist - hm, nope. Every deck with mana acceleration beats u in the face
Windfall - i dont know, its nuts in combo but not unstoppable
Grim Monolith - id say unban

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I just want them to unban land tax.

+1. I would mock up a Parfait deck in a hummingbird's heartbeat if they let me use my Land Taxes...

And I'd venture that Land Tax is probably less playable than Entomb, since it's pretty dead in multiples, it requires a fair amount of set-up, and it's in what's basically the single worst color in Legacy.

The only reason I can think of for it to stay banned is the shuffling issue. But I really doubt it would cause any more annoyance/ slow-play issues than Sensei's Divining Top already does.

[dahcmai]

Well, considering I seem to guess impacts of changes pretty well, let's see if I get these right.


Entomb - While I admit it's fun as hell to Entomb a Nicol Bolas and Shallow grave it on someone first turn off a ritual, I doubt it will see much of that again. I forsee more of a use in those old Auriok Salvagers decks if anywhere.

I was playing around with it at one time and came up with some crap with it and it seemed pretty broken if I remember. I'll be testing it again soon. If there's any card that will break some nasty combo open, I bet it's this one.


MetalWorker - I was surprised at this one. I played the old Mud decks and they were pretty brutal. Now I played the ones that had moxes and workshops in them also. Ancient Tomb might be up to the task, but it won't be 1st turn Metalworker except in the rarity of having a Mox Diamond ala Stax. Stax has taught us lately that it's a damned nasty deck, but has hideous problems trying to be consistent and top decks like crap. I guess if you get it to stick until it can be used, yes, you will dump your hand, but what can you do with it?

Metalworker, you were broken at one time, but you had your day.


Dream Halls - I always wondered why people were so convinced this card was broken. I played the standard version of Dream Halls that Zvi came up with and it was far from a broken deck. Back then, tons of people tried to make it work in Legacy and Vintage and it plain didn't. Hell, the original deck played Fallen Empire lands, how broken could it be? lol

It got banned for being a combo card in the world of the "God Deck". If you never saw that 1st turn monstrosity of 4 Tolarian Academies and 4 Candlelabras of Tawnos, feel lucky. I didn't hit many tournaments and no pro level ones before word got out about the 1st turn kill deck that could punch through a couple of Force of wills. That thing was the reason for a ton of bannings back then. Dream Halls, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye, Academy, Time Spiral, Grim Monolith, Tinker, Memory Jar, Frantic Search, Windfall, Stroke of Genius, Crop Rotation, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, and a few others all got the stick at the same time and most of those weren't even in the deck. They just didn't want to see that thing even coming back in a crippled form.

Now fast forward to today and think Solidarity. Ok, I admit it sounds scary, but considering you end up playing with cards that need to break parity like Ancestral Memories and other suck ass type cards all of a sudden, it doesn't seem so hot. I'll toss my Reset to Meditate? Ok, that doesn't sound horrid. I dunno, I think I'd have to try this one and I don't have high hopes for it. 5 mana was a breaker for that card and I bet it still is the problem.


So all in all, Entomb might see play, the rest, nah...


Now time for my whines.

I figure if there's anything that needs to join these in the world of unbanned stuff. It's Land Tax, yeah we all agree on that one. I'll never figure out why they have a thing against that card. Scroll Tax wasn't that bad guys. Oh ok, it was pretty bad. It kept up with my Bazaar Reanimator and that deck was sick. It's been years though!

Shaharzad - Why? Seriously? Ok, so it's fucking annoying as shit. That's it. I own 9 of them. Even I don't play with the thing. It sucks. Really, it's not even good for the time limit thing. (I had it played in a multiplayer EDH game once and I had to laugh though. I built that deck and even I pulled the damned thing out later).

[Akuma]

Re: Illusionary Mask

New wording
{oX}: You may choose a creature card in your hand whose mana cost could be paid by some amount of, or all of, the mana you spent on {oX}. If you do, you may cast that card face down as a 2/2 creature spell without paying its mana cost. If the creature that spell becomes as it resolves has not been turned face up and would assign or deal damage, be dealt damage, or become tapped, instead it’s turned face up and assigns or deals damage, is dealt damage, or becomes tapped. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/54b&page=2

1 - Now you have to pay the actual mana cost of a card. If you want a Dark Confidant, you at least have to pay 1B (more if you want to "mask" it).
2 - The creature card is now "cast", so it can be countered by spells or abilities.
3 - All creatures "cast" off mask remain face down until they are tapped, deal damage, or receive damage. That means I can Infest your Phyrexian Dreadnought before you attack since it is only a 2/2.

Illusionary Mask, as of the 2009 Oracle Update Bulletin, is GARBAGE...

[Kuma]

@ Kuma - Last I checked, Black Vise is not uncounterable or indestructible.

Neither is Flash. Let's unban that.


When Black Vise was good, you know, back in the early 90's, there really weren't that many ways to remove it, that is no longer the case.

When evaluating a card, the question isn't "What happens if your opponent stops it?" but "What happens if they don't?" In the case of Black Vise, a resolved turn one Black Vise means your opponent, depending on what he's playing, is going to be down so many life points that he won't be able to dig himself out. Aggro will run ragged over control if Black Vise is legal.


It kills Loam? How so?

Because Loam players tend to draw lots of cards and keep lots of cards in their hands. They have to either resolve Manabond or find an answer to Black Vise or they will hemorrhage life points like a hemophiliac with his jugular vein slit open.

[Clark Kant]

- Snip Unbanning Entomb is probably a mistake, proposing the unban of some of the other cards is simple lunacy given what they do. Frantic Search? Grim Monolith? Black Vise? Why would you want to screw with the equilibrium of the format? Unless the motive is to have an unbalanced format & attempt to exploit that...in which case, fuck that in the ear.

If you think that Entomb (or any of those cards) are going to break the format open, you should prove it.

Entomb is off the list now so if that card was indeed broken, it shouldn't be hard to come up with the list that's going to dominate the legacy format for the next three months instead of continuing to insist that unbanning it was a mistake.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Um. Anyway.

"Equilibrium of the format"?

Fuck the equilibrium of the format. What the fuck is this, Chess? The format's supposed to change. That's the stupidest possible reason to argue that a card can't come off the banned list.

The list changes four times a year. A little bit of volatility isn't going to hurt anybody.

[DragoFireheart]

A little bit of volatility isn't going to hurt anybody.

My feelings get hurt. Don't you care about my feelings?

[Clark Kant]

Um. Anyway.

"Equilibrium of the format"?

Fuck the equilibrium of the format. What the fuck is this, Chess? The format's supposed to change. That's the stupidest possible reason to argue that a card can't come off the banned list.

The list changes four times a year. A little bit of volatility isn't going to hurt anybody.

Very well said.

If most of us wanted the format to be stagnant, why do we continue to badger WOTC to print more legacy playable/viable cards? Why do we celebrate every time a half way decent card gets spoiled?

A new powerful but not overpowered card getting printed has the same effect as an old powerful but not overpowered card coming off of the banned list. We should celebrate both.

On the rare instance that something ends up having to get banned again after three months, as long as there isn't a GP scheduled, why is it a big deal?

[Akuma]

Neither is Flash. Let's unban that.

Oh yeah, and neither is Ancestral Recall, we should unban that too :rolleyes:

I thought it was understood that there is a difference in power level between magic cards. Suffice to say, I happen to believe that Black Vise and Flash are cards of a different power level. Some people, not all, believe that Black Vise "might" be safe to unban. I think there are fewer people that believe Flash "might" be safe to unban.


When evaluating a card, the question isn't "What happens if your opponent stops it?" but "What happens if they don't?" In the case of Black Vise, a resolved turn one Black Vise means your opponent, depending on what he's playing, is going to be down so many life points that he won't be able to dig himself out. Aggro will run ragged over control if Black Vise is legal.

How come --YOU-- know what Black Vise would do to the Legacy environment? Have you tested all of the possible applications and countermeasures for Black Vise in the Legacy format? Do you work for WotC? If any of these apply, please share your findings. I would be very interested to know, since there are people in my casual play group that use Legacy decks with some added banned cards for fun. I would love to give them ideas on their Black Vise decks.

You could be right, or you could be wrong, I haven't conducted any extensive testing myself to cover all bases, but I have played against Vise decks enough to know something about them (both before it was originally restricted, casually, and post unrestriction in Vintage). Based on this, I think Black Vise would be okay in the Legacy environment. I think it would be fun to test it out and see. If I am wrong, WotC could easily ban the card again, no harm done (see Flash incident).


Because Loam players tend to draw lots of cards and keep lots of cards in their hands. They have to either resolve Manabond or find an answer to Black Vise or they will hemorrhage life points like a hemophiliac with his jugular vein slit open.

Not quite, I have played this match-up quite a few times. 42/43 Land decks don't really have a great match-up against the decks that would run Black Vise (re: Burn) since they get raped by Price of Progress / Burn the first game anyway. Aggro Loam is better suited for the match and it is what I originally thought you were referring to.

In any case, Black Vise is good in these match-up, but by no means game over. First of all, most of these decks run Mox Diamond, which helps to quickly lower hand size. 42/43 Land decks run Mana Bond / Exploration / Gamble, which are all very helpful. You also don't have to use Life from the Loam to get back 3 lands every single time, just get however many you can use or will keep you safe from damage. Both decks can also remove it effectively (ie. Engineered Explosives, Ancient Grudge, and although sometimes a bit slow, Burning Wish).

Black Vise does cause you to play around it (so do most decent cards in Legacy - Top, Aether Vial, Price of Progress, Chalice of the Void, etc.), I'm not saying the card sucks, but it isn't nearly the overwhelming force you make it out as. CounterTop, for instance, is way more problematic. There is also the whole going first / second issue, the being a crappy top deck issue, the being effective in some matches and not others issue, just to name a few.

And I know, you don't need to mention it: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Triple Vice, GG!
[This last line is a joke, just in case it isn't totally obvious...]

[DragoFireheart]

And I know, you don't need to mention it: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Triple Vice, GG!

lmao, that would really hurt... 50% of the Tier 1 format? Black Vise needs to stay banned.

[einhorn303]

I kind of feel like we need more unbannings to make Combo stronger, and thus indirectly make Control stronger, because Aggro is getting a bit too cocksure in Legacy lately.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

lmao, that would really hurt... 50% of the Tier 1 format? Black Vise needs to stay banned.

1) This is much worse than Dark Ritual, Entomb, Exhume in most cases, and way less likely statistically.

2) I would love to know what list you're running that's playing Dark Ritual and Black Vise together, because I'm sniffing a strategic dissynergy coming.

[AngryTroll]

I kind of feel like we need more unbannings to make Combo stronger, and thus indirectly make Control stronger, because Aggro is getting a bit too cocksure in Legacy lately.

This last week has now seen Necro Hulk, and possibly Merit Lage Hexhunter (ok, that one still needs a catchy name), Reanimator, and MUD reenter the format. That ought to make the format perk up and pay attention. That's a combo deck with a pretty solid disruption shell, a second weird combo that could go a number of different directions (a sorcery combo piece and a land, or an aggro control deck with a creature that doubles as a combo component), a sort-of-combo-control deck back for a shot at the modern meta, and a powerful boost to the prison (Stax) archetype, all in a few days.

Also, Goblins may have gotten a serious boost. True, that's aggro, but Goblins has been underrepresented lately.

Combo Control (as opposed to Aggro Control) and Aggro have both gotten a boost with this set. We'll see what that means for the format. As Jak put it earlier today, right now there's a lot of room for development, and some things may need reassessing.

[morgan_coke]

To chip in on the Black Vise debate, I think the best argument for unbanning Vise is Aether Vial. Seriously. I mean, honestly, is there a single control deck in Legacy that would rather see a turn one Vial than a turn one Vise?

Vise doesn't even fit in nearly as many decks as Vial does. Some sort of Orb Stax, burn, zoo/sligh, mono blue LD bounce and... I think that's about it. At it's worst, vise just goes into most of the aggro decks that don't run Vial. And since most control/combo decks can deal with Vial, they should likely be able to deal with Vise. The greatness of the card as a turn one play on the play is pretty heavily offset by it's lack of utility lategame and against decks which can quickly get some cards out of their hand to get under it.

[SilverGreen]

Neither is Flash. Let's unban that. Oh yeah, and neither is Ancestral Recall, we should unban that too :rolleyes:And there's a thing called irony, and other called text interpretation. The former was aplied here, the later, not so much. :wink:

I think they got the message, and that these unbannings are just the precedent for a tendency. But they must keep track of the changes, and can't do a mass unbanning all at once, so changes will happen in restrained dosages. We may expect more changes in the next months, I guess. And Land Tax will be the last candidate unleashed, just to keep suspense up.

[Clark Kant]

lmao, that would really hurt... 50% of the Tier 1 format? Black Vise needs to stay banned.

Yes, but you're talking about four card combo there, a four card combo that doesn't straight up win you the game on the next turn.

Sure doesn't seem worth it to me. :wink:

[Jak]

Yes, but you're talking about four card combo there, a four card combo that doesn't straight up win you the game on the next turn.

Sure doesn't seem worth it to me. :wink:

I think more people are worried about the card in Zoo, not ritualling out three on the first turn. I mean if Zoo is on the play and starts with this turn one, that's a lightning bolt to the face. Next turn, same thing if only a land was played turn 1. Control can not stop that. Aggro is already doing well right now (have you seen the SCG top 8?). Why should we unban a control hoser?

[andrew77]

As long as goyf is not banned we can see a ton of cards get unbanned. I personally welcome other powerful cards and strategies because seeing 80% of legacy decks running goyf is boring as hell. Here is what I would unban...

earthcraft- provides a 2 card combo that imo is not much better than aluren recruiter

goblin recruiter- less format warping than goyf. If you can't counter it you can race it. Otherwise your deck is probably tier 3 anyway so who cares.

grim monolith- can lead to turn one brokeness like 3sphere but if it really does become a problem just ban 3sphere. I'm not even convinced it would be that much of an issue though.

land tax- not good enough to be banned

mind's desire- with the new storm hoser in zendikar the only way for storm decks to be viable would be unbanning this

Time spiral- not really good enough in the current environment

Other than these I could see things like shaharazad and mask unbanned, but they won't be for causing massive headaches. Bazaar of baghdad could also be unbanned, but if it were it would become a $400 card at the least and wizards doesn't want legacy decks to be so expensive.

[Tilde]

Bazaar of baghdad could also be unbanned, but if it were it would become a $400 card at the least and wizards doesn't want legacy decks to be so expensive.

Hellooooooo Ichorid Winter. Considering that Vintage's version of Ichorid regularly beats fully powered decks, allowing a direct Legacy port seems a little too nuts.

EDIT: Mind's Desire coming off could be interesting; despite its pedigree, at this point I'm not sure it's actually better than Ad Nauseam in dedicated storm decks.

[Akuma]

I think they got the message, and that these unbannings are just the precedent for a tendency. But they must keep track of the changes, and can't do a mass unbanning all at once, so changes will happen in restrained dosages. We may expect more changes in the next months, I guess. And Land Tax will be the last candidate unleashed, just to keep suspense up.

I totally agree with you. I'm not clamoring for any unbannings, I'm happy with what is going on. We [the Legacy community] get to test out Entomb, Dream Halls and Metalworker for the next few weeks/months. Sounds like good times.

The Black Vise discussion was just a theoretical aside, it just irks me to hear comments like "ZOMG, so good, broken, it should never be unbanned!!!" about a card [any card] that has no real testing or current day applications being thrown around.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Hellooooooo Ichorid Winter. Considering that Vintage's version of Ichorid regularly beats fully powered decks, allowing a direct Legacy port seems a little too nuts.

EDIT: Mind's Desire coming off could be interesting; despite its pedigree, at this point I'm not sure it's actually better than Ad Nauseam in dedicated storm decks.

To put it lightly, your wrong about Mind's Desire. It has one HUGE advantage over Ad Nauseaum, It cant really be countered (ok minus mindbreak which I'm still convinced isn't that good) That means that control decks will be using force of will on dark rituals, not the actual kill card, giving combo tons more power. Not saying I don't want minds desire. Just that it is much better than AdN.

[andrew77]

To put it lightly, your wrong about Mind's Desire. It has one HUGE advantage over Ad Nauseaum, It cant really be countered (ok minus mindbreak which I'm still convinced isn't that good) That means that control decks will be using force of will on dark rituals, not the actual kill card, giving combo tons more power. Not saying I don't want minds desire. Just that it is much better than AdN.

In a world with mindbreak trap ad nauseum seems much better than desire. If ad nauseum resolves you win. It's that simple. If desire resolves it could be stifled, hit by mindbreak trap, etc etc. Desire also has to have a fair storm count before you can play it too. You can't just go ritual desire and win as you can with ad nauseum.

[sauce]

nothing else needs to be unbanned... except LED, it should be banned.

[beastman]

Why the hell should LED be banned?

[andrew77]

Why the hell should LED be banned?

LED should not be banned. Banning LED would be one of the stupidest things ever. It is in no way broken or format warping and banning a card because some people dislike it is just plain stupid.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ad Nauseum and Tendrils would be banned before LED, I think.

[MMogg]

Ad Nauseum and Tendrils would be banned before LED, I think.

I doubt it. They've always been adverse to fast mana, like Grim Monolith, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault. They usually neuter the fast mana rather than the combo itself. Like when they left Hatred in Extended and banned Mana Vault. Of course, they did keep Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain banned as well, so who knows. Maybe Ad Nauseum would be on the hit list.

Anyway, it's all academic. ANT and/or TES aren't dominating enough to warrant any bannings.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

As much as I wish I could bust out my old Ice Age era Necropotence deck, it would be nowhere near safe to unban the card.

If you think about it, as the amount of cards in print slowly grows and WotC fights (or succumbs to) power creep, it creates a need to make it harder to get to each individual card in your deck. That's why tutor effects used to be fairly benign, but now they're completely busted.

I mean, hell... If Necro was unbanned, any storm deck could pretty reliably generate a first turn kill. We couldn't rely on everyone to be as chivalrous as I would and just run it in a mono-black suicide deck. :cool:

[MMogg]

As much as I wish I could bust out my old Ice Age era Necropotence deck, it would be nowhere near safe to unban the card.

If you think about it, as the amount of cards in print slowly grows and WotC fights (or succumbs to) power creep, it creates a need to make it harder to get to each individual card in your deck. That's why tutor effects used to be fairly benign, but now they're completely busted.

I mean, hell... If Necro was unbanned, any storm deck could pretty reliably generate a first turn kill. We couldn't rely on everyone to be as chivalrous as I would and just run it in a mono-black suicide deck. :cool:

I read an interview with Richard Garfield that said he was glad cards were being banned and that was his original intent with the game. He said that if cards weren't being banned that meant that designers were making mediocre cards and mediocre games are not fun to play. So I think the whole power creep is intentional to some degree.

I find it funny how many of the old sligh creatures like Jackel Pup and Goblin Cadets are simply unplayable now. Cursed Scroll, which used to dominate the environment, is now rather suboptimal. I don't think that's necessarily power creep as much as Wizards making a concerted effort to make win conditions more creature based.

[Meekrab]

So I think the whole power creep is intentional to some degree.

I find it funny how many of the old sligh creatures like Jackel Pup and Goblin Cadets are simply unplayable now.
I'd just rather that if I had to pay $20 for a card, it would never lose its effectiveness. Both Cursed Scroll and Jackal Pup fit that criteria, and this is most of the reason I haven't bought a set of Tarmogoyfs yet. $80 is too much to expect the average fan to pay for 1/15th of a deck.

[MMogg]

I'd just rather that if I had to pay $20 for a card, it would never lose its effectiveness. Both Cursed Scroll and Jackal Pup fit that criteria, and this is most of the reason I haven't bought a set of Tarmogoyfs yet. $80 is too much to expect the average fan to pay for 1/15th of a deck.

Wow, those are cheap Tarmos! MOTL has them at $31 and most online stores are selling around $40 per. I'm of the same mind as you, though. I'm planning on returning to Canada in a year or two and have been looking at picking up some Chinese cards before I go back . . . but I wonder if they will even be playable by the time I get home. :rolleyes: But I digress.

[undone]

In a world with mindbreak trap ad nauseum seems much better than desire. If ad nauseum resolves you win. It's that simple. If desire resolves it could be stifled, hit by mindbreak trap, etc etc. Desire also has to have a fair storm count before you can play it too. You can't just go ritual desire and win as you can with ad nauseum.

I believe bryant once said something along the lines of "If they unbanned desire I Would cream my pants and dominate the format for the 3 months it was legal." Desire is stupid busted because you cannot counter it baring Force+ stifle/trickbind and mindbreak trap is pretty freeking bad (infact its barely a storm hoser for blue) in blue its only playable in zoo boards and other non blue boards(even than chalice 0> IGG) Minds desire also has this unique thing where it doesnt care if its at 1 or 20 It wrecks you either way where as with adnauseam every point of life matters.

On topic I like the unbannings but I am wary of entomb -> LFTL

[MattH]

On topic I like the unbannings but I am wary of entomb -> LFTL
That's probably the least dangerous thing I have seen anyone suggest doing with Entomb.

No, wait, I take that back, someone said that red decks could Entomb -> Anger to get haste for :r:. But you win the silver.

[AngryTroll]

That's probably the least dangerous thing I have seen anyone suggest doing with Entomb.

No, wait, I take that back, someone said that red decks could Entomb -> Anger to get haste for :r:. But you win the silver.

I saw someone suggest thresh could find Wonder with Entomb. That probably ties with Anger.


Entomb for Loam is very...fair. You pay B and your draw to get Loam (and probably find a few more lands to Loam up when you cast it). It adds consistancy to a deck, but not explosiveness or power. Consistancy in control decks is fine, it's the explosive combo plays that people worry about.

[Kuma]

Oh yeah, and neither is Ancestral Recall, we should unban that too :rolleyes:

Yeah, why not? It's not like it's uncounterable or anything.


I thought it was understood that there is a difference in power level between magic cards. Suffice to say, I happen to believe that Black Vise and Flash are cards of a different power level.

No shit Sherlock.


Some people, not all, believe that Black Vise "might" be safe to unban. I think there are fewer people that believe Flash "might" be safe to unban.

Some people, not all, believe that the Earth "might" be flat. I think there are fewer people that believe the Earth "might" be hollow.

Q.E.D. The Earth is flat.


How come --YOU-- know what Black Vise would do to the Legacy environment? Have you tested all of the possible applications and countermeasures for Black Vise in the Legacy format?

Have you? I thought we were playing theorycraft.


You could be right, or you could be wrong

So could you. Did this really need to be said?


I haven't conducted any extensive testing myself to cover all bases, but I have played against Vise decks enough to know something about them (both before it was originally restricted, casually, and post unrestriction in Vintage).

What do Magic decks from fourteen or so years ago, casual decks, and Vintage decks have in common?

Results from testing with them are totally irrelevant to Legacy.


Based on this, I think Black Vise would be okay in the Legacy environment.

http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/files/picard-headdesk-main99_107.jpg


I think it would be fun to test it out and see.

I'd be okay with testing it out, and I'm fine with Wizards doing cursory unbannings.

But I'm nearly certain we're going to find Black Vise right back where it started in three months.


If I am wrong, WotC could easily ban the card again, no harm done (see Flash incident).

You call the Flash incident no harm done?


Not quite, I have played this match-up quite a few times. 42/43 Land decks don't really have a great match-up against the decks that would run Black Vise (re: Burn)

Every non-combo deck without an overwhelmingly favorable control matchup would run four in their 75.


In any case, Black Vise is good in these match-up, but by no means game over.

Play a control deck. Start at 10 life with the condition that your opponent can't cast spells on their first turn and starts with a six card hand.

See how many games you win.


Black Vise does cause you to play around it

Do you want a format where Putrid Imp and Wild Mongrel are tech?


I'm not saying the card sucks, but it isn't nearly the overwhelming force you make it out as. CounterTop, for instance, is way more problematic.

CounterTop isn't nearly as problematic as Black Vise would be. CounterTop requires you to have two separate cards, to be playing blue, and to have the right CMCs on top of your deck. Also, CounterTop doesn't invalidate entire archetypes.

Black Vise would go in every or nearly every non-combo deck in the format.

CounterTop would run Black Vise and be better for it.


There is also the whole going first / second issue, the being a crappy top deck issue, the being effective in some matches and not others issue, just to name a few.

The fact that Black Vise is often a poor top deck doesn't outweigh the fact that it's incredibly devastating on turns one and two and can go in any deck easily.

[quicksilver]

Play a control deck. Start at 10 life with the condition that your opponent can't cast spells on their first turn and starts with a six card hand.

See how many games you win.

I guess if you assume that your opponent gets one first turn every single game and you have absolutely no answer to it it might seem broken. Also don't forget that black vise is a generally terrible play past the first turn or two.

[Kuma]

I guess if you assume that your opponent gets one first turn every single game and you have absolutely no answer to it it might seem broken. Also don't forget that black vise is a generally terrible play past the first turn or two.

I'm making no such assumptions. Versus control Black Vise reads "Force of Will me or die" if played sufficiently early. Since you've got about a 40% chance of having Black Vise in your opening hand and your blue-playing opponent has about a 40% chance of Force of Will + blue card, that's about a 16% chance you'll resolve a turn one Black Vise and they won't have Force of Will for it.

And even if they do Force of Will Black Vise, they're going to have that much more trouble dealing with the rest of your deck.

We're talking about terrible control matchups becoming 50/50 or so and 50/50 control matches becoming 70/30.

[Clark Kant]

Ask any landstill/control player which play they would be more scared of.

A turn one Black Vise they don't have a response to.

A turn one Aether Vial they don't have a response to.

A turn one Hypnotic Specter (off a Ritual) they don't have a response to.

A turn one Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon or Trinisphere (Dragon Stompy/X Stompy/Stax) they don't have a response to (with the sole exception of MUC decks, which barely see any play anyways).

or A turn one Goblin Lackey that they don't have a response to.

I would argue that every one of those plays is just as scary or devastating to a control player if not being able to be answered as is turn one Black Vise.

More significantly, every one of those cards, with the sole exception of Black Vise, is scary to a control player regardless of whether it resolves turn one, or turn three of turn ten. And even more importantly, every one of those plays, except for Black Vise, is almost just as broken against most decks, not just control decks.

Now setting aside control decks, Aggro decks have to deal with extremely powerful plays like Countertop or Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere (or Standstill) already. Would you argue that those cards are less devastating to aggro decks than Black Vise is to control decks? Because I beg to differ.

No one is arguing that Black Vise isn't a good card. We're arguing if it's really any more powerful than many of the cards/plays that are already legacy legal. And I believe, compare to most or any of those above examples, Black Vise is weaker than many other turn one plays.

As an aside, do we have to focus the whole thread on Black Vise. There's a lot of other cards worthy of being unbanned in the next round of unbannings that have been mentioned. What's the general opinion on those?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In fairness, Black Vise fits snugly into what is already a tier 1 deck. I don't think it should be held to be unbannable; it's not Ancestral Recall or Yawg Will or Library of Alexandria. It's not even Workshop or Bazaar. But it's not on the top of my list of cards to try out unbanned right now. Although if Tarmogoyf were banned, as it should be, that might change.

[Kuma]

Ask any landstill/control player which play they would be more scared of.

A turn one Aether Vial they don't have a response to.

Not every deck improves their control matchup by running Aether Vial. Also, it often isn't relevant for several turns after it is played, and sometimes it isn't relevant at all.


A turn one Hypnotic Specter (off a Ritual) they don't have a response to.

I'm sure you can appreciate the differences between casting a 1BB spell turn one off Dark Ritual and casting a spell that costs :1: on turn one.


A turn one Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon or Trinisphere (Dragon Stompy/X Stompy/Stax) they don't have a response to (with the sole exception of MUC decks, which barely see any play anyways).

See Hypnotic Specter. This is an even more laughable example of the same point.


or A turn one Goblin Lackey that they don't have a response to.

Last time I checked, Goblin Lackey is only good in one deck. It's also a lot easier to answer than Black Vise.


More significantly, every one of those cards, with the sole exception of Black Vise, is scary to a control player regardless of whether it resolves turn one, or turn three of turn ten.

You really think Goblin Lackey and Aether Vial are scary to a control player if played on turn ten?


And even more importantly, every one of those plays, except for Black Vise, is almost just as broken against most decks, not just control decks.

Black Vise is pretty broken against aggro too. Taking six or so damage for :1: is still a pretty big deal. Black Vise is a house against an entire archetype while not sucking against most of the rest of the field. And it can easily go in every deck unlike any of the cards you named.


Now setting aside control decks, Aggro decks have to deal with extremely powerful plays like Countertop or Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere (or Standstill) already. Would you argue that those cards are less devastating to aggro decks than Black Vise is to control decks? Because I beg to differ.

My argument is, and has always been, that Black Vise would upset the balance of power by eliminating or greatly hindering an entire archetype. Whatever it does against aggro and combo are secondary.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Let's not exaggerate the strength of a card that becomes a bad Lava Spike if your opponent has to take even one mulligan.

[Clark Kant]

You act like turn one Hypnotic Specter and Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon aren't extremely common plays. Regardless, even if Blood Moon/Magus lands on turn three, they are more devastating if not countered than Black Vise on turn one. And similarly, Countertop or Chalice are far more devastating to aggro, no matter when they land, than turn one Black Vise is to control.

We're just running in circles though, so I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. There are a lot of other cards I would like to see unbanned as well.

How do you feel about...

Land Tax (Quinn isn't exactly wrecking the format right now)

Illusionary Mask (Strictly inferior to Stifle/Naught and the new Dark Depths combo)

Frantic Search (I can't think of many decks other than Solidarity and maybe pure Reanimator, Madness and Tog that would even consider playing this, and those could certainly use the help to be semiviable again)

Earthcraft (Elf combo has a number of issues and vulnerabilities already and Heritage Druid seems strictly better anyways (cheaper, more synergic with the deck being an elf and all))

Mind Twist (This card is a lot easier to abuse in Vintage with all the artifact acceleration that is worth playing in every deck (not just combo decks), and there it's unrestriction barely had an impact. The only decks I expect to see even play this in legacy are control decks in the mid-late game, good but not broken imo, and you seem to think that control is underpowered now anyways.)

Grim Monolith (The only decks I see playing this are Belcher and WelderMUD and neither deck is tier one now and neither would get that much of a boost from it either. I don't anticipate Welder Mud cracking into many if any top 8 finishes without this card but I guess we'll see in the next three months.)

Maybe I'm wrong in my analysis though. I certainly haven't tested these cards. So let me know if you disagree. And even if we all end up being wrong and one of these cards proves too powerful, it's just three months before it could be added back to the list. Please don't post alarmist statements that a certain card would wreck the format though if you can't offer up a list to back up that claim.

I would rather have six-eight cards be removed from the list only to possibly have one added back to the list in three months, than to be overly cautious and leave five-seven safe cards on the banned list indefinately to guard against one possibly overpowered one (and thus hurt the viability of tier two decks like solidarity, tog, madness, reanimator, masknaught, quinn, squirrelcraft, train wreck, welder mud etc in the process). Wouldn't you?

[Peter_Rotten]

Ask any landstill/control player which play they would be more scared of.

A turn one Black Vise they don't have a response to.

A turn one Aether Vial they don't have a response to.

A turn one Hypnotic Specter (off a Ritual) they don't have a response to.

A turn one Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon or Trinisphere (Dragon Stompy/X Stompy/Stax) they don't have a response to (with the sole exception of MUC decks, which barely see any play anyways).

or A turn one Goblin Lackey that they don't have a response to.


If it hasn't been pointed out already, each of the scenarios you present requires two cards (at least) to be effective EXCEPT Black Vise.

Vial is only as good as the critters it will be cheating in and is probably not effective until turn 3.

Would most black disruption players even lead with Ritual/Hyppie or check the opponent's hand with Thoughtsieze/Therapy/Duress/Hymn? Even if the disruption player leads with Hyppie, it won't be swinging until next turn.

Lackey is only as good as the Goblins in hand. I bet we've all seen the dreaded Lackey out a Lackey or Fanatic play before. Once again, it takes a turn to swing.

Turn one Bloodmoon or Trini is a beating, but, once again, requires at least one more card than turn one Black Vise. They also do no damage (Magus obviously does, though).

All of those plays give the opponent at least one more draw before doing their "damage." In the case of Bloodmoon/Trini, the opponent and you may be playing land-go for a few turns - giving the control player a greater chance of finding an out while taking no damage.

Black Vise is easier to cast AND more easily splashable AND probably more devasting than any of the above listed scenarios. For those reasons, it should stay banned. It's not public enemy #1, but it still should be serving its jail-time.


However, turn one Phage is easily scarier to the control player if he doesn't have an answer. And for that reason, I reverse my decision and Black Vise should be unbanned.

[Clark Kant]

AND probably more devasting than any of the above listed scenarios.

I was with you until that point. Blood Moon effects frequently lock you out of the game completely. Chalice and Trini usually lock you out completely until other cards (Armageddon etc) finish the job. As does CounterTop, though you never see that turn one. And Lackey and Hyppe are usually absolutely brutal. So I stand by my point, there are cards that are scarier/more brutal out there, that often land on the first turn.

But seriously enough about Black Vise. Keep it banned. I don't care much either way. More importantly...



How do you feel about...

Land Tax (Quinn isn't exactly wrecking the format right now)

Illusionary Mask (Strictly inferior to Stifle/Naught and the new Dark Depths combo)

Frantic Search (I can't think of many decks other than Solidarity and maybe pure Reanimator, Madness and Tog that would even consider playing this, and those could certainly use the help to be semiviable again)

Earthcraft (Elf combo has a number of issues and vulnerabilities already and Heritage Druid seems strictly better anyways (cheaper, more synergic with the deck being an elf and all))

Mind Twist (This card is a lot easier to abuse in Vintage with all the artifact acceleration that is worth playing in every deck (not just combo decks), and there it's unrestriction barely had an impact. The only decks I expect to see even play this in legacy are control decks in the mid-late game, good but not broken imo, and you seem to think that control is underpowered now anyways.)

Grim Monolith (The only decks I see playing this are Belcher and WelderMUD and neither deck is tier one now and neither would get that much of a boost from it either. I don't anticipate Welder Mud cracking into many if any top 8 finishes without this card but I guess we'll see in the next three months.)

Maybe I'm wrong in my analysis though. I certainly haven't tested these cards. So let me know if you disagree. And even if we all end up being wrong and one of these cards proves too powerful, it's just three months before it could be added back to the list. Please don't post alarmist statements that a certain card would wreck the format though if you can't offer up a list to back up that claim.

I would rather have six-eight cards be removed from the list only to possibly have one added back to the list in three months, than to be overly cautious and leave five-seven safe cards on the banned list indefinately to guard against one possibly overpowered one (and thus hurt the viability of tier two decks like solidarity, tog, madness, reanimator, masknaught, quinn, squirrelcraft, train wreck, welder mud etc in the process). Wouldn't you?

[morgan_coke]

If it hasn't been pointed out already, each of the scenarios you present requires two cards (at least) to be effective EXCEPT Black Vise.

Vial is only as good as the critters it will be cheating in and is probably not effective until turn 3.

Would most black disruption players even lead with Ritual/Hyppie or check the opponent's hand with Thoughtsieze/Therapy/Duress/Hymn? Even if the disruption player leads with Hyppie, it won't be swinging until next turn.

Lackey is only as good as the Goblins in hand. I bet we've all seen the dreaded Lackey out a Lackey or Fanatic play before. Once again, it takes a turn to swing.

Turn one Bloodmoon or Trini is a beating, but, once again, requires at least one more card than turn one Black Vise. They also do no damage (Magus obviously does, though).

All of those plays give the opponent at least one more draw before doing their "damage." In the case of Bloodmoon/Trini, the opponent and you may be playing land-go for a few turns - giving the control player a greater chance of finding an out while taking no damage.

Black Vise is easier to cast AND more easily splashable AND probably more devasting than any of the above listed scenarios. For those reasons, it should stay banned. It's not public enemy #1, but it still should be serving its jail-time.


However, turn one Phage is easily scarier to the control player if he doesn't have an answer. And for that reason, I reverse my decision and Black Vise should be unbanned.

In your list of random times awesome cards aren't great, you forgot to mention how much Vise sucks when your opponent had to take a mulligan or two. Somebody taking a mulligan is more likely than Goblins/Merfolk/whatever not having something worthwhile to kick out with their Vial.

[UberNewHacks]

It's funny because of Flash and Banned list changes :]