Relic vs. tormod's: graveyard debate

[whiteshepherdman]

I'm curious to know what people think is the better card in this format against decks like threshold, loam, and dredge that take advantage of their graveyards.

Which is better, which do you prefer: tormod's crypt or Relic of Progenitus?

[Offler]

it depends on many things.

If you are playing reanimator deck, or deck which uses grave it is better to use Crypt, because it will not affect your own graveyard.

If you dont use grave, or you can play relic in first turns of game you may be able to supress opponents graveyard even without using its sacrifice ability.

but there is another aspect. If opponent is choosing a card in your graveyard it is better to tap relic and remove the card instead of shooting out whole grave with crypt...

also... multiplay... quite complicated.

I prefer Relic.

[MMogg]

Although it costs :b: and not part of the thread title, you can't get better than Planar Void (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5608) for graveyard hate.

[whiteshepherdman]

lol! MMogg wins the discussion

[Elfrago]

but there is another aspect. If opponent is choosing a card in your graveyard


Wait, what?

Anyway to make it short:

Relic:
+ Helps against Tarmos
+ May slowly remove a graveyard without sac
- Costs one plus one
- Affects your graveyards too

Basically, if you don't care about losing your graveyard, then play a split between relic and tormod (to improve your chances against Ichorid's pithing needles)

Otherwise, stick with a full set of relics.

[Digital Devil]

Crypt is card disadvantage, Relic is not. Crypt is free, Relic is not. Crypt doesn't shrink Goyfs, Relic does. Crypt kills Ichorid, Chalice kills Crypt. Relic is slower, but it is more effective.

Against Ichorid: Crypt>Relic
Against Loam: Relic> Crypt
Against Thresh: I thought they were dropping Mongeese =)

Relic also kills your graveyard, which sucks if you're playing some necrophiliac deck. Tormod can be recurred with Academy Ruins. They both can be fetched with Trinket Mage. It strictly depends on what deck you're playing against, and, obviously, the one you're playing with. I hope you're not playing Relic in your Loam or Ichorid deck, it's just like fully loading your Colt Python and pretend to survive in a Russian Roulette going first. Personally, I like Relic more because I hate card disadvantage. If I have to fill my slots with a card, it must be the most versatile.

[Amon Amarth]

Grossly oversimplified:

Are you playing Goyf? Then Crypt.

No? Then Relic.

[FredMaster]

Although it costs :b: and not part of the thread title, you can't get better than Planar Void (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5608) for graveyard hate.
False, plain and simple.
You would have to mulligan for that card.
Both Relic and Crypt still do something in case you don't have it in your opening 7.

[clavio]

I like relic personally, but I'm having trouble coming up with a concrete reason why.

[Koby]

I like a combination of Leyline + Yixlid Jailer + Crypt.

For me, the 2 mana "activation" for Relic is the deal breaker. Yes, it is the best GY answer, but how many turns do you have to deal with a fast Ichorid start? Yixlid Jailer answers that succinctly, with Crypt providing support for non-Dredge decks.

[whiteshepherdman]

I'm playing landstill atm using 1 tormod's but i've also freed up a slot in the sideboard to try relic. I like its ability to remove graveyards and let me draw at the same time =)

[Mark Sun]

False, plain and simple.
You would have to mulligan for that card.
Both Relic and Crypt still do something in case you don't have it in your opening 7.

Agree, also, you can't really drop it against Ichorid in hopes of shutting them down if they already have Bridges in the yard.

Anyhow, I ran Relics in Landstill, recently I've been inclined to go with Crypts. It's just faster, and also, since I run a copy of Tolaria West, it helps out a lot too.

[iamajellydonut]

If you have heavy Ichorid, most definitely Crypt. While you may be able to beat out a turn2 kill with Relic, you won't if you have to dig for it. Turn2, Relic on field, but all tapped out because of Brainstorm makes everyone a sad panda.

If it's Loam+co you're worried about, feel free to play Relic.

And, as always, if you're using your grave, don't use Relic...

p.s. One thing I've taken to doing, is using 1xCrypt for Trinket Mage. Staring down one aaaangry graveyard with only three mana to play the Mage, it's saved my ass plenty of times.

[Tacosnape]

Planar Void doesn't handle what's already in the yard, though. It won't help against a turn one Entomb, and you'll never hurt a competent Survival player with it.

Planar Void also can be removed before it does it's job. This is not true of Crypt and Relic, which can be cracked in response to removal, and even in the face of Krosan Grip can be activated without a priority pass.

[iamajellydonut]

Planar Void doesn't handle what's already in the yard, though. It won't help against a turn one Entomb, and you'll never hurt a competent Survival player with it.

Planar Void also can be removed before it does it's job. This is not true of Crypt and Relic, which can be cracked in response to removal, and even in the face of Krosan Grip can be activated without a priority pass.

This. And Planar Void is triggered, meaning things like Ray of Revelation or anything else can still activate.

[MMogg]

Planar Void doesn't handle what's already in the yard, though. It won't help against a turn one Entomb, and you'll never hurt a competent Survival player with it.

Planar Void also can be removed before it does it's job. This is not true of Crypt and Relic, which can be cracked in response to removal, and even in the face of Krosan Grip can be activated without a priority pass.

Well, they are quite different strategies, one is prevention (Planar Void and Leyline of the Void), which requires your opponent to get around it, and the other is reactive, in which you take out what they have already set up. I don't expect something like Planar Void to sit there the entire match, but I would hope it would slow down the player a turn or two while they search for answers and I move forward.

Anyway let's face it, there is no perfect graveyard hate and it can all be got around. Like Parcher said about Ichorid, "If you have not learned to either play around or power straight through a Crypt or Relic of Progenitus, you need more practice with the deck"

[AngryTroll]

If you run Trinket Mages and don't run Goyfs, run a mixture. This only applies to a few decks (UR Dreadstill, mostly), and in those cases, I run 1 Crypt and 2-3 Relics in the board to fetch. On the other hand, if I expected a lot of Ichorid, I'd probably run 3 or 4 Crypts and a Relic to fetch.

[Bardo]

From a Japanese list, I run the 2/2 Crypt/Relic in my CounterTop sideboard, because -- as said above -- they both have relative +s and for minor protection vs. Cabal Therapy. The power difference between the two is very slight and changes based on the opposition.

I don't think there is a single answer to the question asked in the OP, other than, "well, it depends."

[einhorn303]

From a Japanese list, I run the 2/2 Crypt/Relic in my CounterTop sideboard, because -- as said above -- they both have relative +s and for minor protection vs. Cabal Therapy.


Not just Cabal Therapy, but also Pithing Needle.