[Deck] MUD Stompy

[Infinitium]

Well, someone was bound to post this sooner rather than later. I'm hesitant to bring back the old 5/3 thread since the namesake just isn't that good what with plentiful creatures to actually block it and the prevalence of burn.

Starting list:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [EVE] Scarecrone
4 [AQ] Su-Chi
4 [FD] Synod Centurion
2 [FD] Razormane Masticore

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

[Solaran_X]

Digging up this thread because A) I'm interested in MUD Stompy and B) I think the list that started this thread is subpar (clearly, since refinement is clearly absent due to lack of participation).

With that in mind, I bring the following to the table.

// Lands (27)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures (16)
4 [UD] Metalworker
3 [EVE] Scarecrone
2 [DS] Darksteel Colossus
4 [UD] Masticore
3 [MR] Trinket Mage

// Spells (17)
2 [FD] Staff of Domination
4 [SH] Mox Diamond (Trinket Fetchable)
2 [MR] Chalice of the Void (Trinket Fetchable)
3 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MR] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [SOA] Sigil of Distinction (Trinket Fetchable)

// Sideboard (15)
X Tormod's Crypt (Trinket Fetchable)
X Pithing Needle (Trinket Fetchable)
X Open Slots

// Other Options
X Sensei's Divining Top
X Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

First off, to abuse Metalworker properly this deck needs Staff of Domination. Staff of Domination is just so much win, since it generates infinite mana with Metalworker and, thanks to M10 rules adjustments, we don't burn unspent mana anymore. With access to "infinite mana" (and infinite draws, infinite life, and infinite attacker/blocker tapping), two cards that were missing from the original list needed to be added. Masticore (can now infinitely ping anything) and Sigil of Distinction (+100/+100 Equipment? Sounds good).

I did sway ever so slightly from the MUD concept in the addition of 3 Trinket Mages, which can fetch Mox Diamonds, Chalice of the Void, and Sigil of Distinction main (and Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Relic of Progenitus, and other possibles after boarding). One Seat of the Synod was added, which is also an Artifact for Metalworker to abuse, to help the Mox Diamonds produce the needed blue.

Darksteel Colossus was added as a two of just for the "oops, I win unless you got Swords or Path" factor on turn 2 (possible, but not too commonly occurring).

Other options (although only two come to mind right now) include Sensei's Divining Top, which is also Trinket fetchable, and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner. SDT is an obvious choice to improve our draw orders (although this deck lacks shuffle effects - too bad Staff of Domination doesn't have one of those). Kira, Great Glass-Spinner is another odd, and non-MUD, choice. First, at :1::u::u: she is very difficult to cast in this deck. However, she gives some protection to our Artifact Creatures from Krosan Grip - although this same ability is also granted through a Chalice of the Void at 3 (easily done in this deck) once our important 3 drops (Staff and Metalworker, maybe Scarecrone) are down.

[ktkenshinx]

I fully agree that the Metalworker and Staff synergy is too good to pass up. But if we have infinite mana and infinite draw, why not include an immediate win condition in the deck? Simply add in one Goblin Cannon for our kill mechanism. This takes up minimal space and provides maximum Staff/Worker abuse.

Masticore is also awesome in the current format. Regeneration and pinging in one package? What year is it again, 1999? The last time competitive decks seriously used pingers and regenerators was a sad and long time ago. But it is perfectly fitted to the current metagame. He is absolutely brutal against Merfolk, especially if you can get him down before they get redundant lords. He is similarly powerful against Zoo, although his lack of Swords/Path protection is upsetting. In future incarnations of the list, I nominate Masticore, Worker, and Staff as automatic inclusions: 4 of each no matter what.

-ktkenshinx-

[DrJones]

How about Myr Incubator?

[Solaran_X]

How about Myr Incubator?
Meh. A slew of 1/1s die easy to a Pyroclasm or Firespout - both heavily played from the sideboards and even main decked in some builds of Supreme Blue and Dreadstill.

Masticore survives both, and so does (obviously) Darksteel Colossus. Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Sigil of Distinction would let the Metalworkers and Scarecrones survive as well.

The biggest weakness of this deck would be a resurgence in the popularity of Shatterstorm. Smaller stuff can be handled better (Krosan Grip, Qasali Pridemage, Seal of Primordium, Disenchant, and Shattering Spree), but losing everything in one swoop would hurt.

[Broham]

If you're going infinite, you could play Magma Mine (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/149.html) for the win. Also, it's tutorable with Trinket Mage.

[Vacrix]

eh. A slew of 1/1s die easy to a Pyroclasm or Firespout - both heavily played from the sideboards and even main decked in some builds of Supreme Blue and Dreadstill.

However.. not every deck plays red. Other relevant cards include engineered explosives, deed, etc. Myr Incubator, though, is amazing against decks that only run spot removal, ie. zoo, merfolk, elves, DnT (w/out Cataclysm), Stax..

It would make for a terrible maindeck card, but I think it could find a place in the board, even just as a 2 of.

Also, if you are going to run Scarecrone...then why are you running DSC? You can't reanimate him. If he goes to the grave he is shuffled back into your library. Why not pick a more reanimator like creature base and run a split between Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Inkwell Leviathan. And though I like Scarecrone, Goblin Welder is far better. It lets you get back stuff you discard with Masticore other than creatures.

3x trinisphere and 2x chalice? Your combo game is going to hurt. In short, the deck has far too many mana sources x27 land and 4x chrome mox? more than half your deck is mana. Cut some lands for moar trinisphere and chalice action. Also, if you do decide to run welder (probably over trinket mage because you can't fetch much with it in this deck, and you only run 5 blue sources right now) then Tangle wire sounds particularly sexy.

[Solaran_X]

I misread Scarecrone, hence me leaving it in the deck from the initial post. Clearly, it would be wise to cut them and go up to 4/4 on Chalice and Trinisphere.

Myr Incubator may be a good idea for the sideboard, I didn't think of it as a weapon against decks heavy in spot removal and light in mass removal.

If we keep with a Trinket Mage package, Magma Mine is definitely a good win condition for a combo win.

The Welder package doesn't sound bad, but there is a lot of graveyard hate in the format right now. No need, in my opinion, to play into that particular area.

[Illissius]

Five sources of blue doesn't seem remotely sufficient to reliably cast the Trinket Mage.

[Solaran_X]

How about this then for an early uMUD Stompy list? Heavier blue sources to support Trinket Mages (is 7 enough?), Magma Mine added for a combo win condition, and lower land count to allow for more deck options (but hopefully still high enough to support Diamonds).

// Lands (23)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures (13)
4 [UD] Metalworker
2 [DS] Darksteel Colossus
4 [UD] Masticore
3 [MR] Trinket Mage

// Spells (21)
2 [FD] Staff of Domination
4 [SH] Mox Diamond (Trinket Fetchable)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void (Trinket Fetchable)
4 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MR] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [SOA] Sigil of Distinction (Trinket Fetchable)
1 [VI] Magma Mine (Trinket Fetchable)

// Open Slots (3)

// Sideboard (15)
X Tormod's Crypt (Trinket Fetchable)
X Pithing Needle (Trinket Fetchable)
X Relic of Progenitus (Trinket Fetchable)
X Myr Incubator
? Mindbreak Trap
? Ravenous Trap

[Illissius]

7 gives you 60% odds of drawing one in your opening seven. 10 sources would give you a 74% chance; 5 would've given you a 47.4% chance.

If you look at your first ten cards instead, 7 gives you a 74% chance, 10 gives you an 86% chance, 5 a 61% chance.

I dunno where the cutoff is, myself.

(You can calculate these easily via google by searching for 1 - ((60 - 4) choose 7) / (60 choose 7), say, for the case where you have 4 of a card in your deck and want the odds of seeing it in your first 7 cards drawn.)

[Grollub]

Crucible of Worlds (recurs manlands+Cities too) and Wasteland/Dustbowl instead of Darksteel Citadel seems like it could play well along the Trinisphere and Chalices. A singleton Academy Ruins seems like natural addition too.

[emidln]

If you gain infinite life, draw and play half of your deck, and set multiple chalices + kill every creature your opponent has, do you really care about passing the turn? It seems like anything extra added in there just dillutes your deck.

[Ectoplasm]

I still have no idea what the term 'MUD' actually means. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Mono blue '...' would be my guess but who knows.

[whienot]

MUD doesn't stand for anything. It was the name given to Workshop Aggro/Prison that ran Metalworker in Vintage.

[overseer1234]

MUD comes from the fact that the old artifact's are brown, and bud is brown, and we are playing "mono brown",.. (I think you got it after reading this)

also, I don't think there's much room for improvement for 5/3 like decks...

colorless means you get to run the fill suite of stax mana sources like:
mox diamond, :2: lands, manlands that dont CIPT, and wasteland

Running wasteland+good manlands make's crucible pretty mandatory.

And obviously you cant pass up on chalice and trinisphere since they can lock your opponent out and don't bother your game-plan at all..

The problem with this kind of deck is that it can run out of gass pretty quickly, so running a set of sword of fire and ice sounds good if you want to go agro (manlands+swords are also better than you think), or run horizon canopy to draw more cards through crucible.

So the basic skeleton will probably look like this:

4x chalice of the void
3x crucible of worlds (we only want 1)
3x trinisphere (same as crucible)

3/4 sword of fire and ice

4x city of traitor's
4x ancient tomb
4x wasteland
4x mishra's factory
4x crystal vein (running 12 lands that pruoduce :2: works prety well for first turn chalice's and trini's, and we have crucible to recur it)
4x darksteel citadel/rishadan port (citadel if you want a more broken metalworker, port if you want more mana denial for stupid basic's)
4x mox diamond (don't let teh land count fall below 24 (maybe ad a land or 2)

now you probably want to run 4 metalworker to make sure your 2nd turn is absurdly explosive)

So now you just choose the creature's you want to use to bash face and tadaaaaa (i still run 4 juggernaut, 4 (razormane) masticore and 3/4 synod centurion)

The deck :D

[Worldslayer]

Rather than run things like Magma Mine, GRL, etc.. a singleton Mindslaver usually works for the combo kill. It might not be "instant" instant, but their last turn alive is under your control when you have lethal on the board. It's also not terrible to see when you're not infinite, like every other presented option is.

[Pastorofmuppets]

I ran this with Gathan Raiders, Phyrexian Warbeast, Su-Chi, Cathodion, and Ravager as my beaters.
Also, Lightning Greaves gives you some EXTREMELY explosive turns. I mean like, empty your hand on turn 2 explosive.
Finally, can this deck be called Brown Town Beatdown? The thought makes me lol

[Clark Kant]

I think some of the card choices don't make much sense...

1.) You shouldn't play any singletons for occasions when you get the Staff + Metalworker combo down. I mean seriously, it's impossible to lose in that situation. You draw your entire library sans one card, you dump down your entire hand which includes... Masticore to wipeout all of your opponents creatures and 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Sphere of Resistence. Thus, after you dump down your whole hand, you will also have a Chalice set at 1, at 2, at 3 and at 4 and 4 Sphere of Resistence on top of that. Your opponent will not be able to cast a single spell or do anything on his turn (since Masticore will also have killed all his creatures). Oh and did I mention that you would also be at an obscenely high life total too. How exactly can you lose in that scenario?

In short, playing a singleton for that two card combo is a completely wasted slot.

2.) Blue doesn't offer enough to warrant splashing for. If you splash blue, there is no reason why you shouldn't just play Fairie Stompy instead.

3.) Scarecrone is crap. Synod Centurion is also crap, because you will occasionally have to play it early when you only have 1-2 artifacts on the boards, and that gives you opponent a great chance to 2-1 you and knock you out of the game.

4.) SOFI and SOLS are strictly inferior to Jitte here. Your creatures lack evasion so you have no way of ensuring your equipped creatures hit the player instead of a blocker, which means that Jitte is far better.


I ran this with Gathan Raiders, Phyrexian Warbeast, Su-Chi, Cathodion, and Ravager as my beaters.
Also, Lightning Greaves gives you some EXTREMELY explosive turns. I mean like, empty your hand on turn 2 explosive.
Finally, can this deck be called Brown Town Beatdown? The thought makes me lol

Your creature base looks awesome and I would love to take a look at your build.

Here's what I've been trying...

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Rishidan Port
3x Crystal Vein

4x Metalworker
4x Su-Chi
3x Razormane Masticore
3x Karn, Silver Golem
3x Umezawe's Jitte

4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Powder Keg
SB: 3 Defense Grid

Edit: I was unhappy with Staff of Domination. They're mostly garbage when you don't have a Metalworker in play.

[from Cairo]

list

This seems like WAY too few land. 18 with Mox Diamonds seems like it's going to leave you stuck on 2 mana very frequently. This is going to make it really hard to get ahead on permanents to abuse Smokestack and it's going to be just really hard to cast your 4cc threats.

I'd drop the Smokestacks and some of the non-Metal Worker creatures for more land. Probably get up to 24-25. I'd propose the basic shell of ...

Land 24
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port (seems better than Nexus w/ 4 Trini's and Spheres)
4 Darksteel Citadel

Acceleration 8
4 Mox Diamond
4 Metal Worker

Disruption 15
4 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds

Win Cons 6
4 (Razormane?) Masticore
2 Staff of Domination

Which leaves 7 slots. Most should probably be devoted to filling out the win conditions. An extra Staff, some of the 4cc 4/4s, a couple Karns. Maybe a piece or two of equipment: Lightning Greaves and/or Umezawa's Jitte.

[Solaran_X]

I've been thinking about this deck all night, and I think we're going in the wrong direction. We're thinking along the creature and disruption path used by Dragon Stompy and Faerie Stompy, which is not exactly a bad line of thinking. But we're missing one big point.

This deck can go infinite on turn 2, in every way.

I feel that we need to maximize our ability to drop a turn 1 Metalworker followed by a turn 2 Staff of Domination. As soon as the Staff comes down, we pretty much win that turn unless our opponent has an answer in hand or in the next draw. As a rough idea, I propose this:

// Lands (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Darksteel Citadel

// Acceleration (12)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal

// Search (8)
4 Serum Powder
4 Street Wraith

// Combo (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Staff of Domination

// Creatures (4)
4 Masticore

// Disruption (4)
4 Chalice of the Void

// Open Slots (4)

With this idea, we're running 12 2 mana lands, which gives us a 80% chance of seeing at least one in our opening 7 cards (thanks for that math formula Illissius). In addition, we also got 12 accelerators in the form of Elvish Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, and Lotus Petal - also a 80% chance of having at least 1 in our opening 7 cards. In other words, we're almost guaranteed 3 mana on turn 1.

Our chances of seeing a Metalworker or Staff of Domination are significantly worse - only 39%. But the Street Wraiths boost that a bit, since they are basically empty slots in the deck. So functionally, we got a 42% chance of seeing a Metalworker or Staff of Domination in our opening hand.

With this build, the idea is simple. Drop a 2 mana land on turn 1, and then also use a Lotus Petal or Spirit Guide to drop Metalworker. On turn 2, use Metalworker to play Staff, go infinite on life (100,000,000,000 should be enough to make ANT and Belcher cry inside), draw until you get Mishra's Factory, drop it. On turn 3, generate infinite mana, tap down any blockers they may have, activate Factory, go infinite on Factory, win with a 100,000,000,000/100,000,000,000 Mishra's Factory.

I feel this might be the proper way to go with MUD Stompy. I could be wrong, but it feels right.

[overseer1234]

well... I tried a very lock heavy MUD list, but that just didn't seem to work since you really miss out on Armageddon's and other sweepers the other stax-like decks have.

Because once you fall behint y probably will never get back in the race.

That's why I thinkg going for more like a dragon stompy liek plan wil work beter (with the ocasional broken turn 2-3 from metalworker)

This is what I ended up with last tiem( still play the deck though)

4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
12
The only thing I often switch is the trinisphere's with spehre of resistance, since they come down easier on turn 1, and are cumulative, however you can always discard excess trinisphere's (and crucible) to razoemane)

4 Sword of Fire and Ice
Make's your already big fatty's even bigger, and make's sure your wimps do something relevant even it'st the first time you hit em with it (looking at you jitte). also with chalice at 1 out there your creature's become REALLY hard to get rid of

4 Su-Chi
4 Juggernaut
4 Metalworker
4 Razormane Masticore
All good for puting up a clock (if you dont have su-chi then play synod centurion) except for themetalworker wich set's up broken turn 2/3 plays.

also the worker is the only one that realy NEEDS the swords over jitte if it wants to stay useful after you dump your hand.

4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Rishadan Port
24 land and 4 mox (never go lower than 23 if you want to keep running the mox, maybe you can cut a trini and a crucible for some extra disruptive lands like dust bowl, or more utility like manland and horizon canopy)


To be honest i never stoped playing this deck, since controll wil hate you with your recurrign manlans, agro will cry since your bitches are way bigger, and combi will have lot's of headache's with your chalice and trini

sideboard might look like this:

4 pithing needle (stupid midrange decks)
4 tormod's crypt (loam/ichorid/reanimate)
4 defence grid (controll in general)
3 winter orb (also controll)

depending on the meta you can ad:
powder kegg/umezawa's jitte: if it's agro infested
more sphere's (if it's combo infested)

As most have noticed I left out the staff combo, but if you exchange the razormane's with the ordinary masticore (or ad a karn/ad more manland to go infinite with them), cut probably a trini, crucible and a swords u can easily ad the staff if you want the combo.

[Kangaxx]

How about this then for an early uMUD Stompy list? Heavier blue sources to support Trinket Mages (is 7 enough?), Magma Mine added for a combo win condition, and lower land count to allow for more deck options (but hopefully still high enough to support Diamonds).

// Lands (23)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures (13)
4 [UD] Metalworker
2 [DS] Darksteel Colossus
4 [UD] Masticore
3 [MR] Trinket Mage

// Spells (21)
2 [FD] Staff of Domination
4 [SH] Mox Diamond (Trinket Fetchable)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void (Trinket Fetchable)
4 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MR] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [SOA] Sigil of Distinction (Trinket Fetchable)
1 [VI] Magma Mine (Trinket Fetchable)

// Open Slots (3)

// Sideboard (15)
X Tormod's Crypt (Trinket Fetchable)
X Pithing Needle (Trinket Fetchable)
X Relic of Progenitus (Trinket Fetchable)
X Myr Incubator
? Mindbreak Trap
? Ravenous Trap

Since when does Magma Mine get around a Chalice for 1?

[Plaguekeeper]

These builds look very interesting.. Ive had my playset of metalworkers sitting out since they got unbanned but havent really worked on anything using them.

Has anyone actually tested any of these lists and if so, how do they do against the normal legacy meta? fish, zoo, thresh, dredge, ant, belcher, etc?

[Clark Kant]

4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Su-Chi
4 Juggernaut
4 Metalworker
4 Razormane Masticore

4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Rishadan Port


This list looks awesome. Good work.

I agree with you on leaving out the Staff of Domination. The card is garbage if you don't also have a Metalworker in play.

I do have to question the use of SOFI over Jitte though. SOFI is a lot worse when your guys get chump blocked which happens frequently against matchups like Elves and Goblins since your guys have no evasion.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Thoughts on Solemn Simulacrum? We won't get the basic but at least he'll cantrip.

[overseer1234]

This list looks awesome. Good work.

I agree with you on leaving out the Staff of Domination. The card is garbage if you don't also have a Metalworker in play.

I do have to question the use of SOFI over Jitte though. SOFI is a lot worse when your guys get chump blocked which happens frequently against matchups like Elves and Goblins since your guys have no evasion.

Elve's won't have a lot of chumpblockers when you have your chalice for 1 (razomane usualy make's it hard for a deck that draws only 1 card/turn to keep up the chumpblocking for long), also I would read the sword again if you're worried about the goblin matchup
(remember something about protection from red that's really good against them)

[Fons]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100207&d=1263567048

4 Colorless
Nonartifact spells cost 1 more to play
5/3

Seems like a great fit.

[Mystical_Jackass]

WOWZ!!!

Damnit Brown, I'm jealous ^.^ That is just a little bit too perfect lol

[from Cairo]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100207&d=1263567048

4 Colorless
Nonartifact spells cost 1 more to play
5/3

Seems like a great fit.

This seems like the type of card that could push the deck to an established/viable archetype.

It opens up the ability to run 16 Spheres along with Wasteland + Port. In this sort of build I might even fore-go Metalworker and just build the deck to drop a huge mess of Spheres and beat face with 5/3s.

Something like...

Land 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Crystal Vein

Acceleration 4
4 Mox Diamond

Disruption 19
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

Creatures 14
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi / Juggernaut
4 Razormane Masticore
2 Karn, Silver Golem

[Nekrataal]

I really like the idea of this deck. However a plan is needed to deal wit Aether Vial since it spoils the complete plan and at least 2 DTB play it main (Merfolk, Goblins). The only colorless solution I could come up with is Powder Keg which needs one turn. But maybe we can actually play Krosan Grip SB supported by Mox Diamond only.

[overseer1234]

Land 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Crystal Vein

Acceleration 4
4 Mox Diamond

Disruption 19
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

Creatures 14
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi / Juggernaut
4 Razormane Masticore
2 Karn, Silver Golem
i would go like
-4 thorn of amethyst (other creature decks will laugh at it, has the chance of bothering you more than your opponent)

OK now that you effectively play 8 sphere's, I would say that trinisphere is obsolete, my reasoning:

Compared to the other sphere effects it's a dead draw if you draw a 2nd one, since the effect isn't cumulative.
It also useless when you draw it if you already have 2 other sphere's down.

Also, karn isn't as good in legacy as it is in vintage, since you can't eat moxen ans stuff. also in a format with this much creature's it usually a 0/8 and your 3/3 animated artifacts are to easily outclassed.


My take on the deck:


4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi / Juggernaut
4 Razormane Masticore
4 metalworker

4 open slots

I would still play 4 swords in this slot, and just finish the game ASAP after (soft)locking your opponent. But with 8 sphere effects Tangle wire also becomes pretty appealing... (and smokestack for that matter)

[Darkenslight]

IF you're playing the Lodestone, what about SoFI and Path in the open slots (3 Path, 1 SoFI)?

[overseer1234]

IF you're playing the Lodestone, what about SoFI and Path in the open slots (3 Path, 1 SoFI)?

Obviously I meant sword of fire and ice... (like playing STP or PtE would make ann sense in a deck that only has 4 colored mana sources AND want to get down chalice ASAP)

[Pastorofmuppets]

If you run Metalworker, you might want to think about running an Artifact Land or four. Seat of the Synod gives you Master of Etherium, Vault gives you Salvage Slasher or Glaze Fiend, Darksteel Citadel gives you some protection vs. Wasteland, Ancient Den gives ummm.... Armageddon? Scourglass? Don't run Den, Tree, or Furnace.

[Poron]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100207&d=1263567048

I'd recomand 4x Lodestone Golem

[Joon]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100207&d=1263567048

I'd recomand 4x Lodestone Golem

I'd recommend reading the thread.

The new card looks very nice. The Golem seems like a perfect addition to the deck, although I don't know if it's still worth to play Thorns in the main. I'd like to have something to stop aggro strategies as most aggressive decks are capable of dropping 1-3 critters before you can lock them out. Tangle Wire looks good.

Against Vial I would simply play Needle in the side. Needle can help you also against teh gayness: Pernicious Deed. I know it somehow doesn't work quite well with Chalice but when your opponent has a Vial out you won't have a Chalice@1 on the field.

I would never cut Trinisphere from this deck as you won't have 2+ Spheres at all times and it crushes some decks alone. First Turn Trinisphere gives you also more time to achieve a lock than anything else.

Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Crystal Vein

Stuff 7
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds

Disruption 18
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire

Creatures 12
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Juggernaut
4 Razormane Masticore

SB
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Pithing Needle
9 xy

Could be very solid, although Equipment or some sort of draw would be nice. Bottled Cloister kills Masticore, so that is not an option. Howling Mine sucks too.

[overseer1234]

If you run Metalworker, you might want to think about running an Artifact Land or four. Seat of the Synod gives you Master of Etherium, Vault gives you Salvage Slasher or Glaze Fiend, Darksteel Citadel gives you some protection vs. Wasteland, Ancient Den gives ummm.... Armageddon? Scourglass? Don't run Den, Tree, or Furnace.

Darksteel citadel does absolutely nothing for the deck, the other lands at least accelerate you, can go beatdown, or slow down your opponent. It's also useless when you have no worker). AND being afraid of wasteland in a deck packing 3-4 crucible's means you probably have the wrong idea about the deck

And the destructible artifact lands make deed even more painful then is already is. + color splashing with only 8 colored sources make's us more inconsistent to boot.


I'd recommend reading the thread.

The new card looks very nice. The Golem seems like a perfect addition to the deck, although I don't know if it's still worth to play Thorns in the main. I'd like to have something to stop aggro strategies as most aggressive decks are capable of dropping 1-3 critters before you can lock them out. Tangle Wire looks good.

Against Vial I would simply play Needle in the side. Needle can help you also against teh gayness: Pernicious Deed. I know it somehow doesn't work quite well with Chalice but when your opponent has a Vial out you won't have a Chalice@1 on the field.

I would never cut Trinisphere from this deck as you won't have 2+ Spheres at all times and it crushes some decks alone. First Turn Trinisphere gives you also more time to achieve a lock than anything else.

Lands 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Crystal Vein

Stuff 7
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds

Disruption 18
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire

Creatures 12
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Juggernaut
4 Razormane Masticore

SB
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Pithing Needle
9 xy

Could be very solid, although Equipment or some sort of draw would be nice. Bottled Cloister kills Masticore, so that is not an option. Howling Mine sucks too.

Well, as long as you know: there is such thing as drawing to much sphere's. Once you have 2 down (or 1 trini, since it stays good, but is worse against midrange decks then the other sphere effects), and locking your opponent, then you're better off putting on a clock then put down more sphere's. Since as you mentioned, you will need a way to survive if your opponent gets 2-3 weeny's down.

Also bottled cloister suck monkey balls (hurcyl's/rebuild in responce to the trigger? GG....) but equipment turn's your metalworker into a 4 turn clock, and your other beaters into 3 turn clock's + you draw + you can ping off the creatures that might have come down

[Zack Guido]

This deck seems really really good actually..

What does it lose to matchup wise? Seems like anything blue heavy would do well against it.. It does get some great cards come Worldwake though, the new Golem land and the "Lodestone Golem" seems to fit right in here.

[Maveric78f]

Joon's list:
I'm not sure I'd play Thorn MD. I think that your list is not enough aggro stompy oriented. And I think that I would like to play some blue too for Master of Etherium and probably Trinket Mage w/ toolbox. If you play it more aggro as I suggest, then definitely no more Trinisphere. You can rely on turn 1 chalice/sphere and turn 2 chalice/sphere/golem.

[Nekrataal]

i would go like
-4 thorn of amethyst (other creature decks will laugh at it, has the chance of bothering you more than your opponent)

OK now that you effectively play 8 sphere's, I would say that trinisphere is obsolete, my reasoning:

Compared to the other sphere effects it's a dead draw if you draw a 2nd one, since the effect isn't cumulative.
It also useless when you draw it if you already have 2 other sphere's down.

Also, karn isn't as good in legacy as it is in vintage, since you can't eat moxen ans stuff. also in a format with this much creature's it usually a 0/8 and your 3/3 animated artifacts are to easily outclassed.


My take on the deck:


4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Crystal Vein
4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi / Juggernaut
4 Razormane Masticore
4 metalworker

4 open slots

I would still play 4 swords in this slot, and just finish the game ASAP after (soft)locking your opponent. But with 8 sphere effects Tangle wire also becomes pretty appealing... (and smokestack for that matter)

After some games spend testing I really support the idea of Swords. I wanted to have them in a lot of games because even if the game is locked opposing Goyfs just can hold you off for ages.

Karn wasn't s so bad because he blocks Goyf all day and can break above stallmates. Multiple Trinispheres attacking for the win ;)

Tangle Wire is worse a try I guess.

[Illissius]

Ring of Gix / Icy Manipulator? Or are those too janky for even this deck. (There's also like, Trip Noose.)

[Infinitium]

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [AQ] Su-Chi
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [EVE] Scarecrone

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [FD] Silent Arbiter
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Power in purity of purpose. I wouldn't play additional Sphere effects maindeck since they are effectively useless versus the majority of the format unless you get them down turn 1 on the play. Similarily, I don't like port in MUD builds since unlike Goblins it prevents it from curving out properly (the exception being any Metalworker hand, but if so why aren't you winning already?) and I want to see the effect of ghost quarter versus fetchland.format.

Scarecrone is also well worth the consideration imo - whilst not a beater in the traditional sense and too slow versus dedicated aggro it justs fills out the 3cc spot with another creature that has to be answered lest it buries the opponent is card advantage. That, and it has synergies with just about every other card in the deck.

[Zack Guido]

I like Silent Arbiter in the SB a lot for this deck, but I'm not personally a fan of Scarecrone. Doesn't seem like a good enough effect considering all the other cards in the deck.

Also, Su-Chi provides what advantage? It's a 4/4 for 4 and we don't have any sac outlets on our own to do anything with it.. Is this reliable enough to put in the deck?

[Infinitium]

Yes. It's pretty much just a reliable turn 2/3 beater without a drawback. It does have synergy with Scarecrone bringing it right back from the graveyard but that is a minor point compared to not being inherent card disadvantage (Masticore) or just plain boltable baitable eh (Juggernaut).

[overseer1234]

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [AQ] Su-Chi
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [EVE] Scarecrone

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [FD] Silent Arbiter
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Power in purity of purpose. I wouldn't play additional Sphere effects maindeck since they are effectively useless versus the majority of the format unless you get them down turn 1 on the play. Similarily, I don't like port in MUD builds since unlike Goblins it prevents it from curving out properly (the exception being any Metalworker hand, but if so why aren't you winning already?) and I want to see the effect of ghost quarter versus fetchland.format.

Scarecrone is also well worth the consideration imo - whilst not a beater in the traditional sense and too slow versus dedicated aggro it justs fills out the 3cc spot with another creature that has to be answered lest it buries the opponent is card advantage. That, and it has synergies with just about every other card in the deck.

I don't like ghostquarter... it -1 card disadvantage for to long before it become's a strip mine. I stil prefer rishadan port.

Also why mutavault? It helps you turn 1 plays so much, and that's what this deck needs, direct pressure starting from turn 1. at worst it's a collorles land (and you don't realy need 8 factory's)


Than there's scaecrone... it's a 1/2 for 3 mana (no problem there, same as metalworker), but it can only fetch back creature's... if it could recurr all artifact's then definetly yeas (even if the damn effect costed 7+ mana), I don't think he's worth it over razormane...

[Solaran_X]

I don't like ghostquarter... it -1 card disadvantage for to long before it become's a strip mine. I stil prefer rishadan port.

Also why mutavault? It helps you turn 1 plays so much, and that's what this deck needs, direct pressure starting from turn 1. at worst it's a collorles land (and you don't realy need 8 factory's)


Than there's scaecrone... it's a 1/2 for 3 mana (no problem there, same as metalworker), but it can only fetch back creature's... if it could recurr all artifact's then definetly yeas (even if the damn effect costed 7+ mana), I don't think he's worth it over razormane...
If you're going to use Metalworker though, why use Razormane Masticore over Masticore? Razormane is just 3 damage a turn, Masticore can wipe their board in one turn.

[Zack Guido]

Razormane vs Masticore is always going to be tough to decide.. First strike on a 5/5 is absolutely viscious though, and it's a nice clock if they don't have creatures out. It's also a conceivable turn 2 drop, and off of a turn 1 Trinisphere you're in good shape.

Another strong addition to this deck may be Sundering Titan? Example:

Turn 1: Trinisphere / Sphere Effect
Turn 2: Metalworker
Turn 3: Sundering Titan?

Seems good to me, especially with a 7/10.. No evasion from anything, but I think his ability is powerful enough.

EDIT: I also like Karn a lot. Could end up being troublesome if they've got creature removal, but he seems like a strong finisher. But is Metalworker + Staff of Domination enough?

Also, splashing blue seems logical with a few blue artifact lands and the 4x Mox Diamond I think we can play Fabricate / Thoughtcast.

Myr Enforcer? Frogmite?

Thoughts?

[overseer1234]

Razormane vs Masticore is always going to be tough to decide.. First strike on a 5/5 is absolutely viscious though, and it's a nice clock if they don't have creatures out. It's also a conceivable turn 2 drop, and off of a turn 1 Trinisphere you're in good shape.

Another strong addition to this deck may be Sundering Titan? Example:

Turn 1: Trinisphere / Sphere Effect
Turn 2: Metalworker
Turn 3: Sundering Titan?

Seems good to me, especially with a 7/10.. No evasion from anything, but I think his ability is powerful enough.


EDIT: I also like Karn a lot. Could end up being troublesome if they've got creature removal, but he seems like a strong finisher. But is Metalworker + Staff of Domination enough?

Also, splashing blue seems logical with a few blue artifact lands and the 4x Mox Diamond I think we can play Fabricate / Thoughtcast.

Myr Enforcer? Frogmite?

Thoughts?

I prefer razormane , 3 damage a turn (not costing me a whopping 6 mana) is good, and the first strike is needed if you don't want to trade with goyf's. + it's clock is a turn faster

Masticore on the other hand does regenerate and can ping more, but maybe you're relying to much on metalworker (you won't always have it) I't better in a more controlish stax build then in a agro build.

As for the titan: it's really cute if you drop him through metalworker, but without (or when you've dumped your hand) you can't hope to reliably cast it; Since the deck has the same weakness as all stompy decks (bad mulligans+somewhat inconsistent), and titan will make it worse at that.

Staff is something I don't play (like I said before, it's a dead draw if you don't have a metalworker and I think you rely on him way to much giving your argumentation. (He's good alright, but remember he's a removal magnet), but taping down your opponent's creature's and making a infinite/infinite mishra's factory can also give you a win if you want to go the staff route.

sphashing is something risky but I could see a blue artifact stompy deck work with master of etherium, thirst for knowledge/thoughtcast, ... but then you'll just end up with deep blue, or feary stomp, which is a completely different deck... (MUD is by definition mono brown/grey)

The afinity creature's have been tested but are just not good enough. enforcer cant come down on turn 2 as reliable as su-chi can, and frogmite? It's worse than anything we already run.



Also, that 4/2 manland seems prety good, only to bad it only has 2 toughnes... I'll test it anyway, but I think it'll be to slow/wil die to easily (and since I run crystal vein, i can't count on crucible for everything)

[Zack Guido]

Sundering Titan is out then. You're right about relying too much on Metalworker.

Are there any draw engines conceivable for this deck besides splashing blue?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Sundering Titan is out then. You're right about relying too much on Metalworker.

Are there any draw engines conceivable for this deck besides splashing blue?

Jayedemae Tome? There really isn't much...

[Nidd]

Bottled Cloister mb? It would also enable you to play Ensnaring Bridges in the SB for Aggro Matchups...

[Zack Guido]

It's conceivable.. But if they blow up the Bottled Cloister you're in trouble =)

Like someone else said, it's a thin line between this deck and a control-oriented build. I could see Bottled Cloister going in a control-oriented build, along with Null Brooch or something, but for an Aggro-centered design it might not fit as well, the deck may be better off with more 4 drop creatures..

[Nidd]

Well, I would drop Trinisphere, tbh and play Sphere of Resistance. I don't know about you, but the fact that Trinisphere makes Lodestone Golem's effect pretty much non-existant means for me, that we should choose 1 of them. And Sphere of Resistance further develops the plan propagated by Lodestone Golem.
Together with Crucible + Wasteland we have a nice mana-disruption package.

Another card I was thinking about were Gathan Raiders. I mean, essentially, they are a monobrown card, right? We can cast them for 3. And they are a huge beater. Together with Razormane Masticore, they are the biggest beaters we can ask for, outside of Metalworker shenanigans, which become obsolete with the inclusion of Gathan Raiders and Razormane Masticore.

I'm really interested in this deck, as I am looking for a not-too-pricey alternative to my DDANT and Ichorid. And I think this fits my playstyle more than plain Aggro. I always liked disruptive decks.

As crazy as it sounds, how does Grid Monitor look? It's a 4/6 for 4... And we can still play more lockpieces/manlands/equipments.

[Zack Guido]

I think Trinisphere is a neccessity based on the fact that this deck packs no removal once something hits the board, and the only thing it can hope for is to have a good enough board position to deal with a Tarmogoyf or similar threat when it hits the table. Sure, there's Razormane Masticore to deal with creatures, original Masticore too, but I'm not sure if that's worth relying on and losing a Trinisphere over.

I think Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance both play key roles, despite each making the other slightly obsolete. I think it's more important that this deck has a great chance of a turn 1 disruption, whether it's Chalice@1 or a Trinisphere / Sphere of Resistance.

I don't think Grid Monitor is good enough at 4/6 to warrant its drawback.

I don't like Gathan Raiders because it costs a card to turn into a 5/5, and it's a terrible draw mid-game when you can only drop it as a 2/2. It can also be hit with a Bolt as soon as we draw a card..

[from Cairo]

I think it's more important that this deck has a great chance of a turn 1 disruption, whether it's Chalice@1 or a Trinisphere / Sphere of Resistance.

I don't think Grid Monitor is good enough at 4/6 to warrant its drawback.

I don't like Gathan Raiders...

I agree with all of this. ^



LIST

Power in purity of purpose. I wouldn't play additional Sphere effects maindeck since they are effectively useless versus the majority of the format unless you get them down turn 1 on the play. Similarily, I don't like port in MUD builds since unlike Goblins it prevents it from curving out properly (the exception being any Metalworker hand, but if so why aren't you winning already?) and I want to see the effect of ghost quarter versus fetchland.format.

With the :2: lands and Mox Diamond I think the deck really wants to capitalize on reliable turn 1 disruption. While Sphere of Resistance leaves a bit to be desired and isn't as busted as it is in Vintage, I think it's the next best option after Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void.

Unless one's meta is really bizarre I think Rishadan Port is going to be more synergistic than Ghost Quarter. The card disadvantage of Ghost Quarter takes alot of set up to negate, IE you need to get to the point with Crucible recursion where they run out of Basics to pull up. Maybe in a specific meta where really no one is running Basics then this card could work as Wasteland 5-8, but in a Post-Zendikar format of 10 Fetches it seems like mana bases are more stable than ever and people can run off color basics and such. I think the game state to make this card worthwhile is going to be rare. Rishadan Port is sort of clunky too, don't get me wrong, but in the later game if one has hit a couple Wastes or has a couple Spheres or/and a Golem out, then it could be the nail in the coffin to keep an opponent of a removal color, or the double mana for Natural Order or Elspeth or w/e, or 4-5 mana for a sweeper or otherwise game breaking spell. I don't think either are amazing, but the fringe benefits of Port seem like they have less requirements than Ghost Quarter, also it can be used as disruption on an off turn and mana a following turn, IE one could leave 2 Ports and 2 colorless mana up and upkeep step tap the opponent down to push something else through the next turn, where Ghost Quarter would leave the MUD player down two colorless sources.

Similarly, I'd take Crystal Vein over Mutavault. I think the synergy with Crucible of Worlds and the 9-12 psudo :2: lands offers a little bit more consistency to the disruption plan than more 2/2s. Again more often than not it probably doesn't matter but for the occasional hands of being able to do something like: Turn 1: Tomb, Mox, Trini; Turn 2: Vein, Razormane, just seems like having the extra options for explosiveness is better than not.

It still seems like the deck is short one piece from being really competitive. Lodestone Golem, along with Su-Chi and Razormane give the deck 3 solid creatures, if they printed a solid 3 drop guy, like a Phyrexian Warbeast with a useful perk rather than a downside, I think the deck would be well on it's way.

[Zack Guido]

^ I agree with everything said up here.

Rishadan Port seems like a nice land, if there's nothing better we can be using, and with a Mox Diamond build (which seems like the only way to go), there are enough land slots for a couple of ports to fit.

Blinkmoth Nexus is another great land that I've seen on and off of these lists, because it equips well, but it may not be necessary. Again, the turn 1 Trinisphere / Chalice / Sphere of Resistance, all extremely likely (in terms of likliness in MTG), will help keep the opponent's field clean for a while.

Razormane Masticore seems like a must-in, the discarding isn't the best, but shooting 3 damage is quite a bit, especially because off of a Trinisphere / Sphere of Resistance, by the time we have Razormane on the field, the other guy will be lucky to have a 2-drop creature to play. Tarmogoyf at that state in the game may be a little too big for Razormane to deal with, but he can race it, not to mention a 5/5 First Striker is something to be dealt with when on the blocking side.

I also agree on one slot being short of this being truly competitive.

Cairo, do you think the slot needs to be a great creature, or can it be an artifact?

They're also getting ready to print an artifact based block, and with Lodestone Golem and a Golem land already spoiled from WWK I'm sure we can expect to see another good creature.

It -is- a good time in Magic if you're looking for efficient creatures with perks, because it seems like it's all they're printing now.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think that splashing blue seems pretty interesting in this deck. Thoughtcast seems sort of good if you want a draw engine. I was wondering if you folks think Esperzoa might be a good inclusion, since there seems to be some discussion on which creatures to run. It's a solid evasive beater, and personally I've always wanted to put it in a deck with Tangle Wire.

Faerie Mechanist could also be pretty damn good, since it seems like this deck shouldn't have a huge problem getting to four mana.

EDIT: List:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

3 Esperzoa
4 Metalworker
4 Faerie Mechanist
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Razormane Masticore

4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Seat of the Synod
4 Island

...Thoughts? I couldn't find room for Tangle Wire, Smokestack, or equipment cards. And I figured that Faerie Mechanist is probably better than Thoughtcast, since even though it's not +1 card advantage, it digs through your deck, and it provides an evasive body. Thoughtcast seems awkward to me though, because it relies on you having good board position, and it makes you want to max out Seat of the Synod (unless you're a real sucker for getting maximum Metalworker mana each time, then I guess Seat is better than Islands #3-4. But I prefer having the consistency of some basic lands...)

I really probably need to include some Jitte and/or Sword of Fire and Ice though. What should I cut for those?

And obviously Esperzoa doesn't quite work yet. It would be pretty sweet if I could fit Tangle Wire into this whole puzzle so I'd have something to exploit Esperzoa with, but I'm a little at a loss right now. I guess there's always Sigil of Distinction??

Or should I just give up on Esperzoa and run Su-Chi and/or equipment and/or Thoughtcasts instead?

[Zack Guido]

4x Chalice
4x Trinisphere
2x Sphere of Resistance
3x Crucible

4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Razormane Masticore
2x Faerie Mechanist
2x Su-Chi

2x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Thoughtcast

4x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Crystal Vein
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
3x Seat of the Synod
1x Blinkmoth Nexus
==============

Tentative list of course.. Jitte might replace a Sword of Fire and Ice, not sure which I prefer. I mean, I prefer Sword of Fire and Ice's effects, but Jitte is more equippable and doesn't have to hit the player of course..

I like Faerie Mechanist a lot though.. Maybe @ 2x with 2x Thoughtcast?

[Jak]

K, if you are playing blue, the main reason would be for Master of Etherium.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Tentative list of course.. Jitte might replace a Sword of Fire and Ice, not sure which I prefer. I mean, I prefer Sword of Fire and Ice's effects, but Jitte is more equippable and doesn't have to hit the player of course..

I like Faerie Mechanist a lot though.. Maybe @ 2x with 2x Thoughtcast?

I'd lose the 2 Su-Chi and go 4x Mechanist, 2x Thoughtcast. He just seems that good, since he lets the deck dig, and so he can find a lock piece, creature, equipment, etc. when we need it. Stax-esque decks have the notorious weakness that it's hard for them to draw extra cards and/or dig through their deck. And Mechanist does that in spades. Thoughtcast is good, and I think if we're splashing blue to be able to draw we might as well have more than four draw spells. But Thoughtcast isn't as good in here as it is in Affinity, since we don't use many (or even any) artifact lands, and our curve is higher (ie less little artifact weenies making Thoughtcast only cost one mana).

Also, as far as your mana base... If you're splashing blue, it seems like you should at least include one or two basic Islands. It's not a good thing to have every land you use be susceptible to Wasteland.

Anyhow... This idea is uber-cool. I really hope this deck "gets there". :laugh:

[Nekrataal]

I'd lose the 2 Su-Chi and go 4x Mechanist, 2x Thoughtcast. He just seems that good, since he lets the deck dig, and so he can find a lock piece, creature, equipment, etc. when we need it. Stax-esque decks have the notorious weakness that it's hard for them to draw extra cards and/or dig through their deck. And Mechanist does that in spades. Thoughtcast is good, and I think if we're splashing blue to be able to draw we might as well have more than four draw spells. But Thoughtcast isn't as good in here as it is in Affinity, since we don't use many (or even any) artifact lands, and our curve is higher (ie less little artifact weenies making Thoughtcast only cost one mana).

Also, as far as your mana base... If you're splashing blue, it seems like you should at least include one or two basic Islands. It's not a good thing to have every land you use be susceptible to Wasteland.

Anyhow... This idea is uber-cool. I really hope this deck "gets there". :laugh:

The blue splash seesm attractive for its draw and fetch possibilities but still I like a white splash more because there is no cards that deals with anything on the board even when you have more draw. The problem of the deck is not finding or digging for answers but rather having them at all. The answers needed are for permanents that slip through early game through your Sphere effects like Goyfs and other useless stuff ^^.

White offers:
Swords
Oblivion Ring (probably the beeter option than Swords since CotV on 1)
Armageddon (nice synergie with CoW and Sphere effects)
Suppression Field
Elspeth
Angels
Ghostly Prison

My current list


23 Lands + 4 Mox (27):
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Plains
4 Mox Diamond

Permission Package + CoW for Wasteland recursion (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere

Creatures (13)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi
3 Razormane Masticore
2 Karn
1 Exalted Angel

Removal (4)
4 Oblivion Ring

[Nidd]

[...]Tarmogoyf at that state in the game may be a little too big for Razormane to deal with, but he can race it, not to mention a 5/5 First Striker is something to be dealt with when on the blocking side.[...]
I think this can be solved quite easily.
Shoot 3 damage at Goyf in your drawstep, then attack. As long as his Goyf isn't 8/9, it should die to the Firststrike of our Razormane Masticore and our little friend will survive.
When he has a Sword, Goyf can't kill him.

What would you say about this list?


Manabase \\

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mox Diamond


Beatsticks \\

4 Razormane Masticore
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Faerie Mechanist
3 Master of Etherium


Disruption \\

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void


Equipment \\

4 Sword of Fire and Ice

[overseer1234]

Personaly I don't like the blue builds.... it make's the deck even more inconsistent then it already is (and has manascrew written all over it).

Also gathan raiders does not work with razormane masticore... read the dragon stompy thread to find the full explanation, or just read the cards and look verry good at when you have to discard your card for the razormane (also raiders suck with swords) + other than masticore you don't always want to empty your hand (go play dragon stompy is you want that)

Bottled cloister might be something for a controll build together with ensnaring bridge, but I just don't like :
"Triger on the stack, hurkyl's recall? GG.."

When you look for a draw engine just use 4 swords, you've got more chances with that than with any other artifact.

[Skeggi]

What would you say about this list?
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Mox Diamond
3 Faerie Mechanist
3 Master of Etherium

Those aren't enough blue sources, these blue cards will often be dead in your hand. In a deck with no draw engine (you can't fully rely on SoFI) that's not good. Mono brown seems the way to go here. Then you also get to use Crystal Vein. That's not half bad if you can drop your Lodestone Golem a turn earlier.

[overseer1234]

Those aren't enough blue sources, these blue cards will often be dead in your hand. In a deck with no draw engine (you can't fully rely on SoFI) that's not good. Mono brown seems the way to go here. Then you also get to use Crystal Vein. That's not half bad if you can drop your Lodestone Golem a turn earlier.

What he said.

Also regarding the discussion about trinisphere vs sphere of resistance

In testing I've found sphere of resistance to be the better one... since it also helps in our bad matchup's (controll and midrange decks) since trinisphere is bad against them and drawing it in multiple's still sucks just as before, + getting it down on turn 1 is rarer then you think (you need a :2:-land + mox diamond , and you only play 4 diamond's)

Sphere of resistance slow's down midrange (okay it's worse against tombstalker), isn't dead when drawn in multiple's, and comes down on turn 1 a hell of a lot easier.

Only bad thing is that you cant double time walk your opponent anymore by droping trinisphere when on the play... :cry: boohooow:cry: :eyebrow:

[Jak]

Blue is the way to go. The deck doesn't have enough powerful creatures to go straight mono brown. Blue adds 2 powerful creatures and some draw options.

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond

4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Faerie Mechanist

4 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Trinisphere

4 Thirst for Knowledge

You sacrifice things like Crucible and Rishadan Port for some actual draw and you get the best threat in the deck. SB could include stuff like Propaganda, Jitte, Arcane Lab, etc. Maybe even Engineered Explosives to handle Bridge tokens, Vial, Nought, etc.

[Zack Guido]

Blue is the way to go. The deck doesn't have enough powerful creatures to go straight mono brown. Blue adds 2 powerful creatures and some draw options.

You sacrifice things like Crucible and Rishadan Port for some actual draw and you get the best threat in the deck. SB could include stuff like Propaganda, Jitte, Arcane Lab, etc. Maybe even Engineered Explosives to handle Bridge tokens, Vial, Nought, etc.

I don't find Master of Etherium to be much worth.. Sure, he boost's Mishra's Factory's, and becomes stronger as they become active, but he just doesn't seem strong enough for the deck.. I'd rather play Su-Chi and have a very cast-able turn 2 play.. Not to mention the lack of blue sources, and less blue cards in the deck = more room for Blinkmoth Nexus / Crystal Vein

And taking Crucible out of the deck is plausible, but it just has too much synergy in my opinion with some key cards.

Crucible works well with: Mox Diamond, City of Traitors, Blinkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, and of course Wasteland.

Sphere of Resistance / Lodestone Golem / Trinisphere + Waste-lock seems to be too good to pass up..

Faerie Mechanist gives us good evasion and some good filtering, and Thoughtcast is a decent enough draw engine.

I agree with the white splash though for some removal on the spot, but I think it depends on the way the deck plays. There aren't any ways to deal with early threats unless we're on the play, but I think it's a risky deck by nature and may be alright that way, haha.

Mono-Artifact is what I'd really like to be playing (as in no color) but it seems like without a draw engine a bad couple of top decks stop this deck cold..

[Tao]

Imo Machinist sucks. Just a bad Trinket Mage. The difference between 3 and 4 Mana is incredible. Look at the Faerie Stompy thread, they don't play any CC4 even though there are good options. And this deck already has the 5/3 guy(s).
Mage will always get you the Chalice which is the best card in the deck anyway or otherwise a Sigil.

[overseer1234]

Allright people, just FYI: MUD is by nature a Coloreles (mono brown/artifact only) Agro Prison deck. Using metalworker, fast lands, and moxen to power out early lock pieces and go beat down while your opponent is struggling under the various soft-lock components. Splashing a color means moving away from the first principle and probably ending up wit a bad version of dragon, angel or feary stompy.

So please, if you want to play master of etherium, feary mechanist (or how you call it, I had to use gatherer to find out what this thing did) Please start your own thread instead of hijacking this one.


Back on topic now:

Bad topdecks stopping a stompy deck out cold is, my dear friend, by nature something you will have to cope with while playing a stompy/stax deck. A good opening hand will definetly get you halfway, BUT you need to draw relevant cards the next few turns and try to keep ahead of your oponent if you want to "get there". Ask any dragon stompy player and he'll say that's just how it goes with the decks and once in a fews game's you'll just die from your own deck.

Even feary stompy with muldrifter and trinket mage has issues with inconsistency/bad draws, and they got card-draw and tutor efects.

Because of this I don't play trinisphere anymore (and might just cut 1 crucible) since you just don't want to have to many dead draws late game (by example if you already have a trinisphere or a crucible and you draw another one). At least sphere of resistance's effect is cumulative so the extra's you draw aren't dead

[Kangaxx]

Ironically enough, I threw a blue list together before even seeing this thread and the moment I saw Lodestone Golem spoiled. And to my surprise almost all of the card choices were the same, except for a few.

My list runs Winter Orb, Relic Barrier, Propaganda (a must), and Esperzoa. The rest of the shell was basically the same, Razormanes, Masters of Etherium, the Stax effects, taxing effects, etc.

I've been tinkering around with Master of Etherium for over a month, and like 50 Cent in 99', I think he is the future. :wink: Been playing around with an artifact based U/B The Abyss deck with Razormanes, Esperzoas and Tsabos Webs. He's actually a really really good card that most people overlook with the belief that he only fits in an Affinity shell.

[Nekrataal]

I don't find Master of Etherium to be much worth.. Sure, he boost's Mishra's Factory's, and becomes stronger as they become active, but he just doesn't seem strong enough for the deck.. I'd rather play Su-Chi and have a very cast-able turn 2 play.. Not to mention the lack of blue sources, and less blue cards in the deck = more room for Blinkmoth Nexus / Crystal Vein

And taking Crucible out of the deck is plausible, but it just has too much synergy in my opinion with some key cards.

Crucible works well with: Mox Diamond, City of Traitors, Blinkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, and of course Wasteland.

Sphere of Resistance / Lodestone Golem / Trinisphere + Waste-lock seems to be too good to pass up..

Faerie Mechanist gives us good evasion and some good filtering, and Thoughtcast is a decent enough draw engine.

I agree with the white splash though for some removal on the spot, but I think it depends on the way the deck plays. There aren't any ways to deal with early threats unless we're on the play, but I think it's a risky deck by nature and may be alright that way, haha.

Mono-Artifact is what I'd really like to be playing (as in no color) but it seems like without a draw engine a bad couple of top decks stop this deck cold..

OK I do agree that the blue splash has its advantages. So to bring up a more unconvential cards. What about Fade Away (best with Tangle Wire) as a SB cards against Tribal and other 20+ creature decks. Could be a one sided Wrath at times and gets rid off creatures. I am still thinking about U cards to deal with BtB or other problematic cards that can be dealt with easily in white. Bounce seems the only way here.

[Kangaxx]

OK I do agree that the blue splash has its advantages. So to bring up a more unconvential cards. What about Fade Away (best with Tangle Wire) as a SB cards against Tribal and other 20+ creature decks.

Can Fade Away even be cast under a Tangle Wire? Usually a permanent in succession to a permanent makes the most sense, playing them over turns. That being said, Pendrell Mists and Propaganda both are > than fade Away (a weak Wrath of God).

[Nekrataal]

Blue is the way to go. The deck doesn't have enough powerful creatures to go straight mono brown. Blue adds 2 powerful creatures and some draw options.

4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Island
4 Mox Diamond

4 Master of Etherium
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Faerie Mechanist

4 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Trinisphere

4 Thirst for Knowledge

You sacrifice things like Crucible and Rishadan Port for some actual draw and you get the best threat in the deck. SB could include stuff like Propaganda, Jitte, Arcane Lab, etc. Maybe even Engineered Explosives to handle Bridge tokens, Vial, Nought, etc.

4 Equipments and only 13 creatures seems weak. Dragon Stompy at least plays 20 creatures usually.

@Kangaxx: Yeah maybe: Ill go back and read the Blue Staxx thread .... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15908 or Tezzeret Staxx http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10966 which also mentioned some interesting cards although the most interesting would be Tezzeret as a better substitude for Karn.

My current test list does quite good in testing. Tested so far against Merfolk, Goyfsligh and Reanimator. Merfolk is even since we can race and stall with our fatties but with blue we not only face Vial but Lord of Atlantis as a major threat. Goyfsligh is a laugh. I lost no game to them. Reanimator is a coin flip. If they begin they often can combo before you can do anything. CotV is nice when they dont have Countermagic or Thoughtsize you Turn 1. If you are on the play and can make a lock element stick you often win since they play so few lands.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [7E] Island (2)
1 [TS] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 [A] Juggernaut
3 [10E] Razormane Masticore
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium

// Spells
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ARE] Karn, Silver Golem
SB: 2 [NE] EE
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid

[Illissius]

The blue versions are starting to look a lot like IBA's Big Blue deck.

[Melman]

The blue versions are starting to look a lot like IBA's Big Blue deck.

That's because Big Blue is the logical evolution of this idea.

MoE is the best artifact creature. Esperzoa is pretty close. Thoughtcast / TfK is solid draw. Blue is just a good color for this deck, and when its added, the deck improves and evolves in to Big Blue.

Although, I've been playing around with the idea for a while, and what's been working best for me in competitive environments isn't exactly what IBA has, but I guess that's a discussion for another thread.

[from Cairo]

I don't really have much to offer on the Blue builds. Master of Etherium is clearly a strong card in an Artifact shell. The Mechanist seems very unexciting/underpowered at 4cc. Is the MUD/u Stompy shell better than Faerie Stompy's?




Cairo, do you think the slot needs to be a great creature, or can it be an artifact?

I think a creature would be best. The deck has alot of the disruption elements it needs already. It doesn't really need more Spheres. I guess Tangle Wire or something similar could be worth a try. I'm sort of siding away from more disruption pieces because the deck is sort of aiming to capitalize on a small window of opportunity to win. IE to put down enough disruption early to put the opponent on tilt for 3-4 turns and push a couple 3-5 power guys through for 20. With 4 Chalice/Sphere/Trini/Waste there's ample options to apply a couple pieces of disruption early game.

It would be nice to have a 3cc guy to help cushion the agro matches where some guys are frequently going to slip in under lock pieces. I might test Phyrexian Warbeast anyway, even though I'm pretty certain his drawbacks are too harsh.

Some theoretical ideas on candidates would be: a colorless Spirit Guide, to help get those Turn 1 Trinispheres that much more often and double as a not dead top deck; or a colorless Fire Imp/Ghitu Slinger, something to potentially answer early Goblins/Merfolk/Zoo guys. I guess I could test adding Red for those, but I'd like their functionality w/o the consistency setbacks.

[eq.firemind]

First of all, about mono-:0: vs colored. I guess minor splash is acceptable just like when you add green for 4 Pernicious Deed to Mono-Black Control, you recieve in fact the same deck, but it just becomes plain better. The archtype is unestablished yet (I know about 5/3 deck, but that was long time ago), so if splashed version will be superior (like Trainwreck is superior to MBC), why not? It'll be progress after all.

On topic: What do you think about Arcbound Ravager in this deck? I guess some artifact lands can be in the deck to support Crucible-growing Ravager.
Something like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of Synod
0-4 Island
4-0 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond
The Darksteel/Island split is based on the number of blue cards in the deck

4 Chalice of the Void - obv.
4 Sphere of Resistance - obv.
4 Crucible of Worlds - all 4 'cause of added Ravager+art. land synergy and 'cause I like wastelock
As you can see, I don't run Trinisphere main. There are just too much decks that don't care about it in my metagame.

4 Arcbound Ravager - I want to make him work here
4 Master of Etherium - He seems to be too good to not run him...
3 Scarecrone - Allows Ravager to suicide for good counters, bring back dudes you discarded to Razormane, cantripblocks if needed.
4 Lodestone Golem - 5/3's new heart and soul I guess...
3 Razormane Masticore - obv.

2 Free Slots.
Firstly there were 2 Sword of Fire and Ice here, but 1-drops like Aether Vial, Lackey or manadudes start to annoy me very much 'cause if my opp drop only one of the abovementioned, my Chalice @1 becomes far less bomby play. So I want to play some bounce here. And I seem to have found the right one: Repeal. It bounces any early thing before I land my lock elements or big dudes, it can bounce something big later in the game and it's not card disadvantage.
What do you think about Repeal (or Into the Roil or another bounce) in :u: variants?

Sideboard:
X Trinisphere - depending on your metagame, some number may be maindecked.
X Pithing Needle - Where Chalice is bad (like decks with Vial or Deed), this one is good.
X Propaganda/Silent Arbiter - against tribal and Dredge. I'll stuck with Arbiters 'cause I have Scarecrones to repair them if needed.

[Illissius]

It would be nice to have a 3cc guy to help cushion the agro matches where some guys are frequently going to slip in under lock pieces. I might test Phyrexian Warbeast anyway, even though I'm pretty certain his drawbacks are too harsh.

There's also, um, Chimeric Idol and Cathodion. Who don't have a drawback on the plus side, but die to Bolts on the minus side.

[Zack Guido]

So is the general consensus that Master of Etherium is good enough for the deck? Faerie Mechanist is definitely out, especially with Trinket Mage almost acting as a strictly-better choice. (Bad choice on my part, haha)

And is he a 4-of? Seems to be the case, but is that a semi-universal agreement?

And yes, while this deck may seem like it should be mono-colorless, there are a couple of blue cards that help patch some small holes.

Plus, everyone seems to like MoE..

[Nekrataal]

I don't really have much to offer on the Blue builds. Master of Etherium is clearly a strong card in an Artifact shell. The Mechanist seems very unexciting/underpowered at 4cc. Is the MUD/u Stompy shell better than Faerie Stompy's?





I think a creature would be best. The deck has alot of the disruption elements it needs already. It doesn't really need more Spheres. I guess Tangle Wire or something similar could be worth a try. I'm sort of siding away from more disruption pieces because the deck is sort of aiming to capitalize on a small window of opportunity to win. IE to put down enough disruption early to put the opponent on tilt for 3-4 turns and push a couple 3-5 power guys through for 20. With 4 Chalice/Sphere/Trini/Waste there's ample options to apply a couple pieces of disruption early game.

It would be nice to have a 3cc guy to help cushion the agro matches where some guys are frequently going to slip in under lock pieces. I might test Phyrexian Warbeast anyway, even though I'm pretty certain his drawbacks are too harsh.

Some theoretical ideas on candidates would be: a colorless Spirit Guide, to help get those Turn 1 Trinispheres that much more often and double as a not dead top deck; or a colorless Fire Imp/Ghitu Slinger, something to potentially answer early Goblins/Merfolk/Zoo guys. I guess I could test adding Red for those, but I'd like their functionality w/o the consistency setbacks.

I asked me the same question regarding Faerie Stompy. Refering to my build it offers stronger creatures on there own that are bigger without wearing an equipment and are more synergetic with the build itself. The permission element is much stronger than for Faerie Stompy since you have 8 Sphere effects in addition and Rishadan Port.


Rushing River will be a 4 of in my sideboard since it bounces 2 permanents without a drawback most of the times and it seems to be needed to get a minimum of boardcontrol in excess of 0/1cc that EE can handle. I will also try Psionic Blast for Removal.

[eq.firemind]

One more suggestion: Wizard Replica.
It costs :3:, has relevant ability (wich becomes better with all taxing effects) and is good Equipment carrier. Also Replica+Scarecrone can be good in mid-late game...

Another one suggestion Crystal Shard as a solution to early attackers. This one's power also stays as the game goes on due to the gameplan of the deck. The problem is that it can't beat, but I still think it is worthwhile some testing time...

[MasterC]

I really don't get why most of the lists posted in this thread don't play Metalworker.

Whats the point against him?
Bad Topdeck? Well, Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond in comparable Stompy or Stax Builds are as well.

Easy to remove? Can be an argument against every creature. And we are playing a shit ton of lockpieces to protect him.

A Metalworker Opening hand is completely nuts.

Turn 1 Lockpiece
Turn 2 Metalworker
Turn 3 Drop your hand and go nuts.

Am i missing something? :confused:

[Nekrataal]

I really don't get why most of the lists posted in this thread don't play Metalworker.

Whats the point against him?
Bad Topdeck? Well, Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond in comparable Stompy or Stax Builds are as well.

Easy to remove? Can be an argument against every creature. And we are playing a shit ton of lockpieces to protect him.

A Metalworker Opening hand is completely nuts.

Turn 1 Lockpiece
Turn 2 Metalworker
Turn 3 Drop your hand and go nuts.

Am i missing something? :confused:

The deck already suffers from inconsistency like every Stompy deck. Metalworker doesn't remedy that but builds up the lucky factor. Dropping your hand and Metalworker effectiveness depend on the cards that you actually can drop. Not the amount of lockpieces matters but which ones you can drop e.g. dropping Trinisphere and 1 Sphere is irrelevant. It is much nicer to power out several creatures which is not likely with the low count that are not dependent on blue. In my list without Metalworker I was able (most of the times) to play the relevant lock pieces early enough like CotV on 1 or a Trinisphere. Then it depends on the draw if you can assemble more lock pieces. It rarely was decided by the mana I had when starting the game to power out all my lockpieces at once. And most of all Metalworker is not enough Aggro and lacks the late game mana sink that makes him worthwhile. Id rather play Tezzeret who can break stalemates or find a final piece of artifact then having a wimpy dude that can produce a massive amount of mana I do not need. Just my 2 cents.

Completely different thought: It appears to me that we could play Painter Servant/ Grindestone Combo :tongue:


First of all, about mono-:0: vs colored. I guess minor splash is acceptable just like when you add green for 4 Pernicious Deed to Mono-Black Control, you recieve in fact the same deck, but it just becomes plain better. The archtype is unestablished yet (I know about 5/3 deck, but that was long time ago), so if splashed version will be superior (like Trainwreck is superior to MBC), why not? It'll be progress after all.

On topic: What do you think about Arcbound Ravager in this deck? I guess some artifact lands can be in the deck to support Crucible-growing Ravager.
Something like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of Synod
0-4 Island
4-0 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond
The Darksteel/Island split is based on the number of blue cards in the deck

4 Chalice of the Void - obv.
4 Sphere of Resistance - obv.
4 Crucible of Worlds - all 4 'cause of added Ravager+art. land synergy and 'cause I like wastelock
As you can see, I don't run Trinisphere main. There are just too much decks that don't care about it in my metagame.

4 Arcbound Ravager - I want to make him work here
4 Master of Etherium - He seems to be too good to not run him...
3 Scarecrone - Allows Ravager to suicide for good counters, bring back dudes you discarded to Razormane, cantripblocks if needed.
4 Lodestone Golem - 5/3's new heart and soul I guess...
3 Razormane Masticore - obv.

2 Free Slots.
Firstly there were 2 Sword of Fire and Ice here, but 1-drops like Aether Vial, Lackey or manadudes start to annoy me very much 'cause if my opp drop only one of the abovementioned, my Chalice @1 becomes far less bomby play. So I want to play some bounce here. And I seem to have found the right one: Repeal. It bounces any early thing before I land my lock elements or big dudes, it can bounce something big later in the game and it's not card disadvantage.
What do you think about Repeal (or Into the Roil or another bounce) in :u: variants?

Sideboard:
X Trinisphere - depending on your metagame, some number may be maindecked.
X Pithing Needle - Where Chalice is bad (like decks with Vial or Deed), this one is good.
X Propaganda/Silent Arbiter - against tribal and Dredge. I'll stuck with Arbiters 'cause I have Scarecrones to repair them if needed.

Propaganda > Silent Arbiter imho because Propaganda is one sided while Arbiter is symmetrical. Imagine a game versus Dredge. Both cards stale against a massiv amount of tokens but while Silent Arbiter requires you to attack for 10 or 20 turns while being blocked by a Zombie wimp Propaganda allows for more all in or at least various forms of attacks to win quicker.

I agree with the Chalice / Needle argument especially for Goblins and partially Merfolk. Against Merfolks a CotV on 2 is neat to stop LoA given the fact that you disabled Vial ;).
I would always play Trinisphere main and board it Game 2. My experience is that the piece of Metagame you will experience on a tournamnet is almost unpredictable. With 18 creatures equipments make sense but to me Scarecrone is just to weak and too fancy (think that even Skeleton Shard would be better).
Ravager doesn't fit since you do not want to sac your lockpieces and do not have the explosiveness of affinity hands that power out enough permanents to win quickly and then have enough to sac for a fatal blow after some early damage. This is a different deck.

Regarding Repeal I prefer Rushing River since it can have two targets and the drawback can be compensated with CoW out.




Because of this I don't play trinisphere anymore (and might just cut 1 crucible) since you just don't want to have to many dead draws late game (by example if you already have a trinisphere or a crucible and you draw another one). At least sphere of resistance's effect is cumulative so the extra's you draw aren't dead

I fully understand the argument but Trinisphere is just too good in many matchups Turn 1 or 2. And given the right build it can still attack for 3 (Karn) or 5 (Tezzeret) and is good in multiples then ;) Actually the first lockpiece to be dropped would be Sphere of Resistance because it is almost useless together with Trinisphere, Trinisphere effect is outright better and Sphere of Resistance shuts down your own spells (especially the one > 3 mana) much more than Trinisphere does. AT last this is the reason it isn't played in any Stompy or Staxx shell anymore. If you cut this piece the COW/Wastelock becomes much more important.

[MasterC]

The deck already suffers from inconsistency like every Stompy deck. Metalworker doesn't remedy that but builds up the lucky factor. Dropping your hand and Metalworker effectiveness depend on the cards that you actually can drop. Not the amount of lockpieces matters but which ones you can drop e.g. dropping Trinisphere and 1 Sphere is irrelevant. It is much nicer to power out several creatures which is not likely with the low count that are not dependent on blue. In my list without Metalworker I was able (most of the times) to play the relevant lock pieces early enough like CotV on 1 or a Trinisphere. Then it depends on the draw if you can assemble more lock pieces. It rarely was decided by the mana I had when starting the game to power out all my lockpieces at once. And most of all Metalworker is not enough Aggro and lacks the late game mana sink that makes him worthwhile. Id rather play Tezzeret who can break stalemates or find a final piece of artifact then having a wimpy dude that can produce a massive amount of mana I do not need. Just my 2 cents.



As a long time Dragon Stompy Player, my experience was that the biggest inconsistency of Stompy Decks is the lack of colored manasources in the Opening Hand. You have to throw those hands away, but every Mulligan hurts a Stompy Deck very much, because of the lack of card draw and card filtering.
This whole disadvantage doesn't concern MUD Stompy if you stay colorless. And I would rather power out a Lodestone Golem, a Masticore and a trinisphere in one turn with Metalworker, than one Esperzoa in one turn without Metalworker.

[Antonius]

a list i've been brainstorming:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
3 Darksteel Citadel

4 Mox Diamond

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metal Worker
2 Juggernaut
1 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds

[overseer1234]

Why do you play ghost quarter? you do know it's card disadvantage (something you want to avoid, short of (razormane-) masticore), You're better off playing additional :2:-lands like crystal vein, At least it'll give you a 1-shot speed up, instead of a giving your opponent a time walk on you + filter their deck...

Also with lodestone making juggernaut obsolete, I suggest playing Su-Chi instead of them (you won't always have chalice on 1 to avoid it from being bolted).

And If you decide to go the mono brown stax way( which your deck leans on to) then maybe some tabernacle's should help in your agro matchup, since you don't have a way to get rid of creature's other then waiting for smokestack. (or ad powder kegg which should also help a bit...)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Y'all take a gander at this little mock-up and tell me what you think:

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi (might cut a couple if I can get away with using more white creatures without stretching the mana base)
2 ? (Elspeth/ Magus of the Tabernacle/ Baneslayer Angel/ World Queller== not sure which...)
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack

3 Oblivion Ring
2 Exile

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains

SIDEBOARD:
Not entirely sure, but white would give a lot of good options, like Ghostly Prison, Ethersworn Canonist, more Oblivion Rings, more Exiles, etc.

**Also, I'm not entirely sure about Exile, but I had to throw that in there, because I freaking love that card.

Feedback is always appreciated. For one thing, I'm not sure which creature to use in the two "open slots," they all seem pretty awesome in theory. Anyhow, let me know what y'all think...

[overseer1234]

Y'all take a gander at this little mock-up and tell me what you think:

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi (might cut a couple if I can get away with using more white creatures without stretching the mana base)
2 ? (Elspeth/ Magus of the Tabernacle/ Baneslayer Angel/ World Queller== not sure which...)
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack

3 Oblivion Ring
2 Exile

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains

SIDEBOARD:
Not entirely sure, but white would give a lot of good options, like Ghostly Prison, Ethersworn Canonist, more Oblivion Rings, more Exiles, etc.

**Also, I'm not entirely sure about Exile, but I had to throw that in there, because I freaking love that card.

Feedback is always appreciated. For one thing, I'm not sure which creature to use in the two "open slots," they all seem pretty awesome in theory. Anyhow, let me know what y'all think...

I'd say that you're better off posting this in the geddonstax, or the mono white shop thread...

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm gonna try another attempt at splashing white without having it turn into some bastardized version of Stax... (And heeeeeeere we gooo...)

2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Scarecrone
3 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi
2 Razormane Masticore
1 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

2 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Gargoyle Castle
2 Horizon Canopy
5 Plains

SIDEBOARD:
x Ethersworn Canonist
x Ghostly Prison
x Oblivion Ring
x Powder Keg
...etc, etc. (Too tired to build a good sideboard)


...Well, anyways, what do y'all think? It's quite possible that I should drop another few creatures for more disruption... But I kind of like all the creatures that I've included. As far as the more controversial creatures I've put in there, the Mystics let you run a miniature equipment toolbox, which seems pretty good considering all the creatures in this deck could use a bit of a boost in stats, and the Simulacrums support the white splash and allow more white cards in the sideboard. Theoretically at least.

EDIT: I think another direction you could take the white splash in would be to pair Lodestone Golem with Magus of the Tabernacle, and play a very slow, grinding control game... But then you'd, y'know... Basically be playing Stax.

DOUBLE EDIT: Is Sphere of Resistance really testing to be better than Trinisphere for most people?

[Broham]

I'm not real crazy about the Equipment toolbox idea for the 2x Stoneforge Mystics ya got there. I'd prefer to just run 4x Jittes for multiple reasons. Honestly the dude that makes me think about splashing white in my build is Glowrider - but I run all the spheres in my build. Thought about Glowrider?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm not real crazy about the Equipment toolbox idea for the 2x Stoneforge Mystics ya got there. I'd prefer to just run 4x Jittes for multiple reasons. Honestly the dude that makes me think about splashing white in my build is Glowrider - but I run all the spheres in my build. Thought about Glowrider?

I'm not really so crazy about Glowrider, to be honest. It's a powerful effect, but it makes all your other lock-pieces (besides Lodestone Golem) exponentially worse. Honestly, it's pretty much the same reason that I'm hesitant to run Sphere of Resistance: I don't want to make all (or a lot of) my shit cost more to play... How have the Spheres been working out for you as a disruption plan?

Basically, my opinion about this deck (even thought it's not quite what I would call a 'real deck' yet) is that it probably wants to splash a color, in order to mitigate some of the weaknesses of what artifacts can't do. I could most easily see that color being blue or white, but that's just me.

Blue would give TfK and Master of Etherium, possibly Trinket Mage and/or Faerie Mechanist... White gives cool stuff too, but probably more sideboard-oriented stuff... I'm not really sure. Hell, red could even be kind of funny, for stuff like Magus of the Moon, Fling, and Shrapnel Blast. Basically like some weird bastardized love-child of Affinity and Dragon Stompy. Lol.

[overseer1234]

Blue give's a hell of a lot of cool stuff, but last time I checked deep blue (artifact based feary stompy) didn't work out that great...

It did have a lot of cool synergy with esperzoa and tangle wire (and elsewhere flask for that matter) but for some reason the deck died out before it got established... maybe that's something worth looking at now that golem is available.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Blue give's a hell of a lot of cool stuff, but last time I checked deep blue (artifact based feary stompy) didn't work out that great...

It did have a lot of cool synergy with esperzoa and tangle wire (and elsewhere flask for that matter) but for some reason the deck died out before it got established... maybe that's something worth looking at now that golem is available.

Yeah, I remember the old Deep Blue thread. Lol. That's one reason I'm so active on trying to tinker with this idea.

Basically, as I see it, Deep Blue had more than a few problems, mostly because it was trying to do so much. For example, it tried to support Myr Enforcer in the same list as Ancient Tomb. It tried to get too cute with Esperzoa. It went for a pretty heavy blue splash, but also wanted to use Stompy-lands, so its mana base looked like absolute shit in every list I saw proposed. It ran too many artifacts to support Chrome Mox and not enough lands to support Mox Diamond. It had trouble cramming enough blue spells in there to properly support Force of Will. Etc, etc.

With this deck though, I think that staying "mono-brown" doesn't provide quite enough awesome creatures, and this is the main reason that I think a splash is necessary. I mean, yeah, stuff like Su-Chi is serviceable, but I think we can pretty easily do better by adding a splash of one color.

My dilemma with MUD Stompy though, has a lot more to do with what disruption to use. Chalice of the Void is obviously an auto-include. But the Sphere of Resistance plan seems somewhat awkward to me, and Trinisphere also poses problems. Thorn of Amethyst/ Glowrider seem really awkward to me, because they present so many deck design challenges that I don't think they end up being worth it. Besides Crucible of Worlds, we don't really have a great way to break the symmetry of Smokestack (like Elspeth can do in Stax, for example).

Anyhow. I don't feel like anyone has quite figured out what the best disruption suite to compliment Lodestone Golem would be, and I think that's probably where we need to start...

Just for shits and giggles, here's my take on... *Drumroll*

Deep Blue, 2.0

4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Master of Etherium
4 Su-Chi
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Razormane Masticore

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Dust Bowl
8 Island

...So yeah. I kind of wish I still had MWS so I could test that now and see if it plays like a steaming pile of shit, or if it's actually kind of interesting. *Les sighs*

[overseer1234]

Besides Crucible of Worlds, we don't really have a great way to break the symmetry of Smokestack (like Elspeth can do in Stax, for example).

Well since this deck (being mono brown) play 60 permanent's and your opponent usually about 40 I think smokestack is pretty asymmetrical in this deck (also given the fact that your opponent will allays be the first one sacrificing stuff).

And if they do play enough permanen's, then chalice, and sphere's (and wasteland) will make it pretty hard for them to keep up the permanent race..

But honestly I wouldn't play smokestack in this kind of deck... just play chalice + sphere's (and lodestone) to slow down your opponent (softlock them) and win with fast beats.

[Pastorofmuppets]

What do you guys think of Duplicant? It may be a 6 mana Tarmogoyf/Trygon/Iona/Whatever, but it's also a Tarmogoyf/Trygon/Iona/Whatever!
besides, it dodges Counterbalance, and do you know how awesome a Trygon is when you steal it from those guys?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

What do you guys think of Duplicant? It may be a 6 mana Tarmogoyf/Trygon/Iona/Whatever, but it's also a Tarmogoyf/Trygon/Iona/Whatever!
besides, it dodges Counterbalance, and do you know how awesome a Trygon is when you steal it from those guys?

I think Duplicant is pretty good if you're staying mono-brown, because he gives you a pseudo creature removal spell. Yeah, he's slow as all get-out, but we can accelerate him, and he steals the creature as well as killing it, which is pretty sweet. That's what I think. Although lack of activity in this thread is sort of discouraging to me.

How is testing going? What are our best/worst matchups so far from what y'all can tell?

[Kanabo]

Can anyone tell me if Darksteel Citadel is good enough for this deck? I am currently running 24 lands. here is my current manabase:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Rishidan Port
4 Blinkmoth nexus
4 Mishra's Factory

Are there any Significant changes I should make?

~Thankz

[Nidd]

Someone already tried Everflowing Chalice? It looks quite playable in more Stax-ish approaches of MUD which could then support Duplicant.

[whienot]

What do you guys think of Duplicant? It may be a 6 mana Tarmogoyf/Trygon/Iona/Whatever, but it's also a Tarmogoyf/Trygon/Iona/Whatever!
besides, it dodges Counterbalance, and do you know how awesome a Trygon is when you steal it from those guys?

Just wanted to point out that Duplicant doesn't copy abilities, only power, toughness and creature type(s).

[Mystical_Jackass]

With Metalworker, being able to drop your hand fast... I suggest maybe some card draw to keep on the pressure.

+ Solemn
+ Bottled Cloister
+ SoFI

Seem like good ideas for speeding up the draw/accelerating. Bottled Cloister's drawback isn't really a drawback if your hand is played fast might I add. I'm not feeling MoE in a deck like this.

Duplicant's only good in EDH 'cause... well, in EDH everyone plays BIG and gy is pretty well incorporated, so in that sense it becomes that much better. Legacy, too many weenies and small creature decks, I think it could make a desc SB.

[Grollub]

Here's something I've been considering as a possible MUD variant for Legacy.

Disruption - 16
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void

Creatures - 12
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Triskelion

Utility - 1
1 Crucible of Worlds

Mana - 31
4 Metalworker
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Crystal Vein
1 Dread Statuary or Gargoyle Castle

SIDEBOARD::
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Serum Powder
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Triskelion
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Crucible of Worlds or Pithing Needle

Having a viable game versus dredge, plus the general power of Leyline of the Void seems worth exploring. Serum Powder and Helm of Obedience give the deck a very viable secondary method of attack in game two and three, having the ability to just flat out race any deck is really nice and Helm of Obedience with or without an active Leyline is just plain mean against Reanimator.

The list probably want 1 more land to fully utilize Mox Diamond on a consistent basis, but I'm testing a singleton Crucible of Worlds in it's place 'cause as a singleton it's always good to draw - and it more or less makes up for the land.

I'm sure Triskelion looks wierd, but I've actually been quite happy with him, the ability to ping of Confidants and other nasty small fries instantly is very handy and occasionally he can "bolt" for the win.


Given it's rather experimental, I thought I might just fling it out in the open.

[Broham]

My list I've been kicking around quite a bit, I love it.

4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x City of Traitors
4x Crystal Vein
4x Ancient Tomb

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide

4x Metalworker
4x Juggernaut
2x Masticore
4x Razormane Masticore
4x Synod Centurion (this slot may turn into Su-Chis if I find a good price)

4x Lodestone Golem
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst

2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Defense Grid (surprised I don't see it more)
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus

The trick is just to play it like a suicide deck. Just drop your spheres, play your men, turn them sideways, and pray your opponent can't keep up.

The Spirit Guides made it in after testing with Mox Diamonds and Lotus Petals - which do not mix with sphere effects at all. Spirit Guides plus the 2mana lands ensure turn 1,2 Juggernauts or a Metalworker followed by many Juggernauts.

Umezawa's Jitte is here to blow up my opponents' just as much as it is to benefit me. I'm happy with it so far, but I also like Basilisk Collar too, it's cheap and the lifegain helps against Zoo/Sligh decks.

The deck is randomly just good against tons of stuff - a first or second turn sphere effect shuts down so much shit I don't see why anybody would want to run less than the available 4xSphere of Resistance 4xThorn of Amethyst 4xLodestone Golem. Those twelve cards are the core of my deck and what I aim to build around, mi esfera doce.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

My list I've been kicking around quite a bit, I love it.

4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x City of Traitors
4x Crystal Vein
4x Ancient Tomb

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide

4x Metalworker
4x Juggernaut
2x Masticore
4x Razormane Masticore
4x Synod Centurion (this slot may turn into Su-Chis if I find a good price)

4x Lodestone Golem
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst

2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Defense Grid (surprised I don't see it more)
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus

The trick is just to play it like a suicide deck. Just drop your spheres, play your men, turn them sideways, and pray your opponent can't keep up.

The Spirit Guides made it in after testing with Mox Diamonds and Lotus Petals - which do not mix with sphere effects at all. Spirit Guides plus the 2mana lands ensure turn 1,2 Juggernauts or a Metalworker followed by many Juggernauts.

Umezawa's Jitte is here to blow up my opponents' just as much as it is to benefit me. I'm happy with it so far, but I also like Basilisk Collar too, it's cheap and the lifegain helps against Zoo/Sligh decks.

The deck is randomly just good against tons of stuff - a first or second turn sphere effect shuts down so much shit I don't see why anybody would want to run less than the available 4xSphere of Resistance 4xThorn of Amethyst 4xLodestone Golem. Those twelve cards are the core of my deck and what I aim to build around, mi esfera doce.

I like the idea of the Spirit Guide acceleration suite... I'm having a "why didn't I think of that?" moment.

On the other hand, 8 Spirit Guides and 6 Masticores seems like an awful lot of inherent card disadvantage...

Also, how does Metalworker test out? On the one hand, it's an inarguably powerful ability... But what I don't like about him is that he's a horrible top-deck, and really only at his best when you can play him with a full hand. How's the little bugger been working out for you?

[grahf]

Someone already tried Everflowing Chalice? It looks quite playable in more Stax-ish approaches of MUD which could then support Duplicant.

Why not just play Thran Dynamo or Worn Powerstone, they are more efficient for the mana cost. Not that I'm suggesting that would be a good idea.

[Broham]

I like the idea of the Spirit Guide acceleration suite... I'm having a "why didn't I think of that?" moment.

On the other hand, 8 Spirit Guides and 6 Masticores seems like an awful lot of inherent card disadvantage...

Also, how does Metalworker test out? On the one hand, it's an inarguably powerful ability... But what I don't like about him is that he's a horrible top-deck, and really only at his best when you can play him with a full hand. How's the little bugger been working out for you?

I love Metalworker, if that thing comes down turn 1 and doesn't get Dazed I'm golden. He's just too good not to run with the fatties at cmc 4 or higher. If I'm in danger of topdecking the Metalworker, then the game is already over. One way or the other.

The 8 Spirit Guides have worked out great, they let me play less land and the ability to burst early. I wouldn't touch them the way I play the deck. The Masticores are usually discarded to eachother, I only ever play one.

The deck is weird, I'm either out the gate with the Metalworker or a Sphere, but after that the deck is basically on auto-pilot. It plays lots of hate and plays through it easily, which is incredibly frustating to my opponents. That's my favorite thing about this deck, Spheres really piss people off and make them redo their math.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ok, brainstorm time... Basically, the idea is to splash red for some additional disruption (and a couple more three-drop creatures). If it looks pretty reminiscent of Dragon Stompy, that's because it probably should.

Red MUD:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Metalworker
2 Pilgrim's Eye
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi
2 Juggernaut
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain

So, pretty simple really. Hella creatures and hella disruption. There are a couple of issues I can think of offhand that need testing to be solved:
-Is 32 artifacts out of a 60 card deck enough to abuse Metalworker effectively?
-Is it ok to play 8 lands that bin themselves (City and Wasteland) in a deck that's obviously pretty mana-hungry? (IE Should I cut Wasteland?)
-Between 8 Mountains, 4 Spirit Guides, and 2 Pilgrim's Eye, am I being too paranoid that I'm not going to have enough red mana? (I feel like I probably am, since Magus/ Spirit Guide if I hardcast it are the only things that need :r:... Crystal Vein might be a possibility. I don't like Mishra's Factory in a deck with Magus though...)

I really think that, rather than just being worse than Dragon Stompy, this build could have some potential. Between Wasteland, Magus, Chalice, and 12 Sphere effects, the deck should be able to put some hard pressure on the opponent's ability to play their own shit. And it seems like it would be able to present a relevant threat pretty damn early. Basically, I'm hoping it plays out like Dragon Stompy with more consistency (because of the additional disruption/ slightly less of an "all-in" approach).

Anyhow... Get at me and let me know what y'all think. (Personally, I think there's some potential in the idea...)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Red MUD:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Metalworker
2 Pilgrim's Eye
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi
2 Juggernaut
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain



Yo seriously... Can I get some mothafuckin' feedback on the list here? Pretty please?

[Clark Kant]

Red MUD:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Metalworker
2 Pilgrim's Eye
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi
2 Juggernaut
2 Razormane Masticore

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain

I like the direction you're going with this a lot, it looks awesome, but I have a few suggestions.

A.) Strongly consider playing Blood Moon, the card is absolutely incredible right now. If you're worried about your artifact count for Metalworker, I would even cut Simian Spirit Guide if needed, though I think the vastly better option is to replace 4 Mountains with 4 Great Furnace, or hell even replace Wastelands with Darksteel Citadel rather than not play Blood Moon.

B.) Pilgrim's Eye seems interesting, both weak and neccesary at the same time. I guess if that's the only ways to get enough red consistently, you don't have a choice, but maybe there's a better option.

C.) I would rather play equipment SOFI/SOLS than Sphere of Resistence. And I would replace Thorn with Trinisphere. Trinisphere by itself has the effect of two spheres on your opponent, all while not effecting you one bit (unlike the Sphere effects). And the Swords make your threats awesome, give you a great way to spend your Metalworker mana, and also make even your Metalworkers into substantial backbreaking threats once your drop your hand onto the board.

My best suggestion to you. Build the deck, it seems very close to an ideal build. Then test the deck, tweak it. See if you can make the changes I talk about, Blood Moon esp seems like the single best reason to play this deck. And then once you have a build you are comfortable with, post your own thread for it in the established forum, with some testing results and a sideboard to boot. You'll get a lot more replies if you post your own thread after you have a relatively finished polished deck with testing results and a sideboard. Good job so for. :)

Also, pray that Grim Monolith gets unbanned on March 20th, because that card would make your deck so much better.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I agree with Clark with regards to Blood Moon. It seems bizarre that you'd run the Magus, but not Blood Moon itself.

I also agree that looking into Trinisphere would be a great idea.

If the deck ends up functioning well, I'm coming back to Magic just to play it. A Dragon Stompy/MUD fusion simply sounds too sexy to ignore.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, Clark, with your suggestions, it would look something like:

Red MUD:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Metalworker
2 Pilgrim's Eye
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Su-Chi
2 Juggernaut

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Great Furnace

...This actually seems like a pretty strong list. I think the only thing that will tell me if Sphere effects or Trinisphere is better for this deck is going to be a lot of testing. Another card that I would potentially like to work in would be Crucible of Worlds, to compliment the Cities and Wastelands, but I'm not really sure what I could cut for it. I guess out of the above list, 2x Juggernaut, or 1x SoLS & 1x SoFI could be cut for 2x Crucible of Worlds... Might be a good idea, since recursive Wastelands are pretty nice.

Anyhow, I'm glad y'all like the idea. Personally, it looks like a freakin' blast to play. I plan to get my (more computer savvy) friend over to try to help me install Wine so I can get back on MWS and give it a few test runs... God, I wish I had access to a pc though, so I could be playing this right now! Lol...

Regarding the sideboard, what do you guys feel would be the strongest options? Powder Keg? Shattering Spree? Pyrostatic Pillar? Thorn of Amethyst? More Jitte? Tormod's Crypt? Or perhaps, my favorite piece of stupid tech du jour, Arena of the Ancients? :laugh:

[Clark Kant]

It looks awesome, and does look like a blast to play.

I look forward to hearing about how it plays for you once you get all the cards to build it. And it perhaps getting something else worthwhile from the new set.

I really hope this works out, because I really love the idea of playing Stax with Blood Moons. :)

[Nekrataal]

I don't know. It looks like Dragonstompy with a changed creature base. Instead of playing stronger beaters that double strike and fly you play weaker creatures that are cast easier due to the coloerless mana costs. So more a less a trade in aggro power against consistency. Not sure that this really means that Red MUD Stompy > Dragon Stompy. I would be interested in test results though.

[Kanabo]

What do you guys think of Sundering titan? or maybe Crystal Vein as a 4-of?

[mercs]

How come no one is posting a list with staff of domination???
I've been playing DS and mudd a lot. Pretty much, metalworker and staff is almost instant gg.

My plays usually go t1 metalworker, t2, reveal 4 artifacts(including staff), and play the staff. untap metalworker with staff, go infinite mana, life, draw, dump ur library.

If you know they have control or removal (which is everyone) throw down your locks first. But overall, same idea. U'll dump your library, and your opponent will be stuck under every control card in your deck.

[Clark Kant]

Staff seems like it's win more.

Metalworker is already awesome on its own and if it stays in play, you will usually win regardless.

Staff isn't very good on it's own (without Metalworker its usually a dead draw). So why play it when it's only win more?

[mercs]

Staff seems like it's win more.

Metalworker is already awesome on its own and if it stays in play, you will usually win regardless.

Staff isn't very good on it's own (without Metalworker its usually a dead draw). So why play it when it's only win more?

It's cuz I feel like metalworker alone isn't always a clear win. It usually drops 2-3 threats the turn after it comes out. however, many decks are very good at getting around that. This is why mud hasn't been able to break in as an established deck.

It's been coined a slow control deck with the same weakness as affinity. Post sb, mudd has an incredibly difficult time against a lot of decks. However, with the staff, you still maintain a dominant position. One bad thing about metalworker is that opponents will go after the threats u play, forcing u to topdeck threats. this leads to bad times....

But overall, I see what you mean. I run staff as a 2 of, kind of like how elves do. Staff is good b/c the win condition is pretty fragile, so the staff puts a better seal to the game.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This card has just recently been spoiled in Rise of the Eldrazi:


"All is Dust"
:7:
Tribal Sorcery- Eldrazi
Each player sacrifices all colored permanents.

...Potential?

[Zalren]

This card has just recently been spoiled in Rise of the Eldrazi:


...Potential?

Potential to be ridiculous in this deck.

[Jon Stewart]

Potential to be ridiculous in this deck.

Yeah it does. I'm impressed. Just the kind of card to merit playing this deck.

If wizards just unbanned grim monolith this could be top tier.

[Broham]

Yeah it does. I'm impressed. Just the kind of card to merit playing this deck.

If wizards just unbanned grim monolith this could be top tier.

What does the deck need Grim Monolith for? I'm dropping 5/3s first turn and/or Metalworker turn two. Just curious what it is that you like about Grim Monolith, perhaps I'm missing something; I've had a few.

[Meekrab]

...Potential?
I think it has potential to be a seven mana Wrath of God an awful lot of the time.

[from Cairo]

This card has just recently been spoiled in Rise of the Eldrazi:

"All is Dust"

Tribal Sorcery- Eldrazi
Each player sacrifices all colored permanents.

...Potential?

The card is interesting, but it definitely pushes the deck in a different direction, more of a "big-mana/Wildfire/ramp" style rather than "spheres and guys." It might be playable in a mono-brown deck with Chalices/Trinispheres and artifact acceleration + Metalworker, but I don't know if it is practical in the Stompy styled builds.

[Vacrix]

The card is interesting, but it definitely pushes the deck in a different direction, more of a "big-mana/Wildfire/ramp" style rather than "spheres and guys." It might be playable in a mono-brown deck with Chalices/Trinispheres and artifact acceleration + Metalworker, but I don't know if it is practical in the Stompy styled builds.

Agreed. Its interesting and is better in mono-brown stax. The format has too much wasteland, though. You require Metalworker for it to work.

[Kanabo]

How do we deal with aggro decks like zoo or ww? I know we can play chalice, but if they go first and land an early grim lavamancer we are kinda screwed...

What do you guys think about our matchups?

[YigSnakeDaddy]

Red MUD:

Anyhow... Get at me and let me know what y'all think. (Personally, I think there's some potential in the idea...)

I'm totally planning to try that one out.
Do you have done some tests with Red Mud already? If s, how did it go and what do you intend to use as a siudeboad?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm totally planning to try that one out.
Do you have done some tests with Red Mud already? If s, how did it go and what do you intend to use as a siudeboad?

Check out the Moon Stax thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16740-%5BDeck%5D-Moon-Stax. Me and this other dude were batting around ideas over there for a while. Tbh, I haven't gotten a chance to test much of anything recently. But Red MUD or Moon Stax or whatever you want to call it is still a very interesting idea to me; I would love to get some data on how it performs but I still can't get MWS to work on my MacBook, despite trying the instructions in multiple folks' blogs.

Anyhow, I'm glad you like the list. If you run some tests with it, please let me know what your experiences are.

[paeng4983]

im just wondering, why nobody is running goblin welder?

[Broham]

Goblin Welder, while awesome, is the kind of card that you build around to get the most out of. Simply put, there isn't any room for him in this deck, he's got some great comboish potential, but I think he's just too much of a squeeze in the Stompy deck. You also need a dependable discard and/or sacrifice outlet to get the most out him - additional cards to also squeeze in (Razormane Masticore is not enough).

my 2 cents on that,

P.S. - As for the Zoo matchup, it's just kinda bad unless you over prepare for it. Lightning Bolts tap dance all over the creature base. Right now, I'm experimenting with Lightning Greaves.

[sclabman]

I've been testing out a list that looks like this:

4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Su-Chi
2x Razormane Masticore

4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Chalice of the Void

3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Bottled Cloister

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal (I like that it's an artifact for the worker, but hate paying 2-3 for it with a couple sphere effects out, I need to test more to decide which I like but I'm really feeling like taking them out for more Spirit Guides.)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Darksteel Citadel (Artifact land, indestructible)
4x Mishra's Factory

Comments: I very much like this deck. The Cloister is for card draw, for a couple reasons 1. You want your hand stocked for the worker. 2. The Masticore (I used to run more, but I like 2 for now). 3. You Dump your hand very quickly so drawing into more Thorns or Su-Chis or whatever is very advantageous while your opponent is reeling. The bad side of it is that it costs 4. I have not once run across a situation where an opponent has nuked it when I have something crucial removed with it, usually I play it as the last thing once I've already dumped my hand. Crucible is for recurring Wasteland, Mishra's, and City of Traitors.

I think this deck can be a major contender in certain meta-games... It's also really fun to play.

[overseer1234]

I've been testing out a list that looks like this:

4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Su-Chi
2x Razormane Masticore

4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Chalice of the Void

3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Bottled Cloister

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal (I like that it's an artifact for the worker, but hate paying 2-3 for it with a couple sphere effects out, I need to test more to decide which I like but I'm really feeling like taking them out for more Spirit Guides.)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Darksteel Citadel (Artifact land, indestructible)
4x Mishra's Factory

Comments: I very much like this deck. The Cloister is for card draw, for a couple reasons 1. You want your hand stocked for the worker. 2. The Masticore (I used to run more, but I like 2 for now). 3. You Dump your hand very quickly so drawing into more Thorns or Su-Chis or whatever is very advantageous while your opponent is reeling. The bad side of it is that it costs 4. I have not once run across a situation where an opponent has nuked it when I have something crucial removed with it, usually I play it as the last thing once I've already dumped my hand. Crucible is for recurring Wasteland, Mishra's, and City of Traitors.

I think this deck can be a major contender in certain meta-games... It's also really fun to play.

I like this list, bur I would cut the petals (really don't like those) for mox diamond, and the SSG for cyistal vein (you can use it as a 1-shot acceleration that returns with crucible, and later in the game it can just stay as a land, also since I like mox diamond and 24 land is pretty much the minimum there...). Also you could also use rishadan port for more mana denial if you like...

Other that that, sweet list.