[Deck] GB Landfall

[Nidd]

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ob Nixilis
4 Korlash
2 Tombstalker

4 Smother
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Pernicious Deed

3 Crop Rotation
3 Life from the Loam

4 Thoughtseize

7 Fetch
4 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
6 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Cabal Pit

I refined the list a lot and I hope you like this one better.


This deck aims at controlling the board via spot removal (Smother, Pulse) and sweepers (Deed) to stall out for your synergies starting.
You have Ob Nixilis, who loves Fetchies and Crop Rotation and especially Korlash.
Then you have Korlash, who is fat and regenerative. Drawing 2 of him means you can start up another engine: Thin your deck via Korlash and Volrath's Stronghold.
Finally, you have Goyf, who is just... well, he's Goyf.
Tombstalker is a filler, tbh. I don't know what to play instead.

This deck features 3 Crop Rotations to fetch any utility land it might need.
The 3 Loam are good for Abusing cards like gargoyle Castle and Cabal Pit and Loam ensures you can make landfall trigger very often. Also, it enables you to recurr Wastelands, which is rapesauce.

Volrath's Stronghold helps to get the Ob Nixilis+Korlash engine going and it's just plain good for not running out of gas after a sweeper.
Cabal Pit gets rid of annoying creatures like Bob and can help your Goyfs break stalls.
Wasteland is plain good. It fucks with pretty many decks manabase and a Wasteland-softlock can win quite a few games.
Gargoyle Castle is an experimental slot. I like the option of making a 3/4 flier each turn, come lategame.
The cylce lands are there to get an engine goin with Loam, but they aren't a must.

[DrJones]

I think your deck would be better suited for extended if you just use a discard spell other than hymn and a kill spell other than smother.

[Nidd]

Narf. I might actually try that. Or are there better, old alternatives to some cards in there I just can't think of?

[Jaynel]

Life from the Loam, Volrath's Stronghold, and Urborg all seem pretty decent.

[DrJones]

Undiscovered Paradise? Thawing Glaciers?

[Maveric78f]

I'm quite sure that Sensei's Divining Top is better than Night Whispers in this deck : better fits the curve, and you don't really need card advantage since you play very fat beaters.

I just don't get how you abuse Landfall in this deck.

[KillemallCFH]

If you want to abuse landfall, 4 Crop Rotations is a good start. Not only does it provide a nice combat trick, but allows you to run some utility lands (such as the ones Jaynel mentioned). Crucible/Loam could also easily find their way in here if you want to abuse landfall.

[Nidd]

Updated the decklist.

[edgewalker]

I always liked Zombie Infestation in GB loam builds. Spitting out multiple 2/2s every turn seems pretty good.

[johanessen]

How about exploration?

[Hopo]

What is the point in making a deck around landfall if you play only one land per turn? With korlash, you can start abusing your extra landdrops by turn 4 at fastest. And that requires 2 korlashes.

Exploration should be the first card to put in, 4 copies of course. Otherwise there's no reason to build such a deck.

[vlz-]

Crop rotation / Harrow / Fetches abuses landfall at instant speed, your counting on a lot of straight land topdecks/loam at sorcery speed with explorations (and dead explorations).

[Hopo]

Exploration is never dead landfall-wise, if your deck has loams in it. The list in the opening post doesn't even include Harrow.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I really like the concept, and was inspired after playing against Phoneix_Ignition yesterday. The concept seems quite powerful, and has a lot of potential. I have since picked up the deck myself and done some tinkering, and so my comments stem from Phoenix's list yesterday, and my own testing and tinkering today.

Tombstalker seems counterproductive. It shrinks your Tarmogoyf, and worse, it shrinks your pool of eligible lands and, later, the creatures you can recur with Stronghold. This, in turn, hurts the landfall concept tremendously in return for dubious gains. Should 'Stalker be destroyed, for example, you're in real trouble.

Exploration and Crop Rotation seem like they focus too much on the Landfall plan, and not enough on stabilising the rest of the deck. Wouldn't a mana-creature like Birds of Paradise, Elves of Deep Shadow, or Veteran Explorer be fundamentally better? Rather than requiring you to have a land in hand, being able to play it immediately seems like a better plan, especially in the short-term. It still powers out Ob Nixilis early enough to matter, but it makes no real demands on the manabase. Veteran Explorer would be amazing, especially with Cabal Therapy kicking around to ensure its relevance. Your opponents aren't likely to run more basics than you, and you're more likely to take advantage of them (faster) than they are.

What about Raven's Crime? All the elements for a serious lock are here (viz. Loam): if you run it in multiples of 3-4, then it's fairly easy and consistent to pull off without even the need for something like Intuition.

What about Worm Harvest? One or two copies don't take much room, and the card presents a feasible alternative win condition, especially against Humility and/or aggro like Goblins/Merfolk.

Snuff Out seems like a stronger tempo option than Smother. None of the creatures that Smother can hit and Snuff Out should be much of a bother; besides which, Snuff Out allows us to cast other spells on that same turn, which I think is important for the deck. At worst, it leaves open mana for us to cast Life from the Loam. Maelstrom Pulse and Deed can take care of the rest.

Profane Command could also be an option: its versatility allows you to complement the Nixilis-life-loss strategy, to pop your own Veteran Explorer for six more Nixilis damage and two untapped mana, to reanimate something, or to swing for the win. Sounds like a plan to me.

These considerations have prompted me to test the following list, which has so far proven quite formidable:

Lands (21)

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Windswept Heath


Creatures (15)

4 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Ob Nixilis, The Fallen


Spells (25)

4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Raven's Crime
3 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Snuff Out
3 Profane Command
2 Worm Harvest


SB (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Damnation
3 Tormod's Crypt


Obviously, I've sacrificed the concept of utility lands--including cycling and dredging--in favour of what I believe is a more consistent basic-lands approach. This relegates the Ob Nixilis plan to an end-game winner, rather than the primary win condition. Similarly, it means that you're generally only dredging Loam once a turn. So far I think that the trade off is worth it, and I don't really see the need (not to mention the room) for cycling lands.


Your thoughts?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I've been testing pretty extensively over the last couple of days, and I'm quite happy with the deck. I really hope that some other people pick it up: it has a lot of potential to be exploited. I'm not sure whether it's superior to NO-Rock, or a Tombstalker-based deck, but it's quite good. The Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy package is especially daunting: opening a hand that can cast an Explorer on turn 1 means that you can double Therapy on turn two, and if you have an extra Therapy, then you're even more of a threat, since you can triple-Therapy on turn two. Four, if you'Re lucky and have an extra Explorer.



The weakest link in the deck so far is Ob Nixilis, which is often the hardest card to cast (you need to have it in your hand, after all, and there's no much filtering going on in this deck at the moment). Nonetheless, landing it is akin to winning. I even slow-rolled Goblins once, wiping the board with an Explorer-powered Deed, and eventually just winning as soon as I cast Ob Nixilis. Worm Harvest has been an especially helpful gem, but it still needs to overcome some dyssynergies in the deck: with Explorer, it's easy to fetch all the basics early on. This, unfortunately, leaves you with only a few cards to pitch into the graveyard.

[Phoenix Ignition]

That's an interesting take on it Goaswerfraiejen, and I'm glad I inspired more korlash use. The one thing I would critique in it is that you would definitely benefit from a white splash.

My take on it was to take the normal rock shell control here:

4 Swords to Plowshares
3-4 Vindicate
3-4 Pernicious Deeds
2-4 Eternal Witness (recurring any of the above cards is pretty damn good)

Add in some black discard power that is enabled from using many more swamps:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

It needs some consistancy, and since Ob Nix loves fetchlands, the obvious choice is:
2-3 SDT

And then finish it off with creatures who are all bigger than goyf:
4 Korlash (obviously needs to be a 4 of)
3-4 Ob Nixilis the something something

Accelerate into the control and huge creature wins with:
4 Birds of Paradise

This leaves about 4 slots open. I really like the Veteran Explorer idea as we can easily benefit more than others can. If I take that route I'll be testing out 3 Cabal Therapy and taking out BoP most likely.

The main thing to think about here is to not neuter your deck to play fun things, which is a recurring theme in magic. Korlash has always been decent if you build the right deck around him (regenerating black creature only dies to white pretty much) and with a controlling rock shell you should be able to buy enough time to sit back and do very little, hitting land drops is simple and Ob Nix will eat face after that. One land and he's already a goyf-beater.

I don't however like the LftL angle that is being approached here. It takes too long to set up and turns you into a slow-rolling deck, when I'd rather just swing for 10 and drop a couple lands (which is pretty much 1 fetchland and a swing with ObNix).

P.S. I didn't include goyf because of the removal package the Rock deck runs, and the 7-8 creatures we play that are stronger than him. Also, this allows you to blow up deeds for 2 without killing your own stuff, which is in my opinion under-rated in recent rock decks.

[Elfrago]

Honestly, I don't see any place in legacy for Ob Nixilis.

Costs way too much: check.
Initilally slow, grows with time: check.
Dies to bolts: check.

If I want a creature with those disavantages I might as well play Vinelasher Kudzu, at least he is a 2cc card (and also far less expensive =) ).

[Phoenix Ignition]

Honestly, I don't see any place in legacy for Ob Nixilis.

Costs way too much: check.
Initilally slow, grows with time: check.
Dies to bolts: check.

If I want a creature with those disavantages I might as well play Vinelasher Kudzu, at least he is a 2cc card (and also far less expensive =) ).

I'm going to have to argue against this point. A creature who costs 5 is slower than most of the format, I'll give you that, but as a finisher he's still a giant bomb.

If you hold lands until you play him he can protect himself. They will bolt him in response, but if you dropped a fetchland and their removal is burn, you're in the clear and he will win the game. Growing by +3/+3 and 3 loss of life easily makes him a finisher that's going to be bigger than any other creature, even ones reanimator grabs. Volrath's stronghold brings him right back if he gets bolted.

I'm not saying he can be played in any deck, but he definitely can be played in legacy with the right kind of deck.

Vinelasher Kudzu grows 1/3 as fast without doing any damage. Please don't draw similarities between god awful cards just to try to condemn one that deserves testing in legacy.

[Elfrago]

No.

Today's legacy has evolved from the random mish mash of decks it was in 2005, there is now a set of costraints that every deck looking to succeed should abide to or find a way around them.

In today's Legacy there is no place for cards with 5cc (or more!) that don't do anything before turn 5 (at best). And only combo decks and decks with an Ancient Tomb powered manabase might stretch this to 6cc.

In today's Legacy the creature of choice is Tarmogoyf. You should compare every creature you play to Goyf. Tribal decks are the only exception to this rule but this is certainly not the case. This costs one and a half more and is one half smaller than Goyf. The ability is nice but definitely not worth three extra mana.

Now, the only way I see to make Ob Nilixis competitive is to go back in time to 2007, sneak into wizards quarters, and delete the Future Sight file from their hard drives.

Or just ignore everything I just said and keep going, you can even play Mesa Pegasus for what I care.

[scrumdogg]

Sometimes you can be in the right place at the right time. I suspected there would be little or no combo locally & hopefully only one (or no) Burn decks. So I attempted the following

Critters: 19
4x Veteran Explorer
4x Eternal Witness
4x Korlash
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Ob Nixilis

Spells: 18
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Engineered Explosives
2x Krosan Grip

Lands: 24
4x Forest
4x Windswept Heath (yes, when I get Verdant Catacombs, they will go in & I can respect the high fetchland level some people prefer, but Stifle is rampant in Central Mass...)
4x Bayou
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Volrath's Stronghold
7x Swamp

SB:
1x Ob Nixilis
2x Krosan Grip
4x Extirpate
4x Choke
4x Thoughtseize

Yes, the mana isn't quite right, could have used more access to green sources. Would love to adjust the mana to 3cc to gain access to white (Knight of the Reliquary, STP-type effects, Vindicate, EE@3 etc) but that will be a work in progress. The deck is also slow, but resilient, and many Counter-top decks & mid-range decks have trouble generating good early pressure (or dealing with 4cc/5cc resilient monsters). Zoo is a crap shoot, but I can punish them vomiting their hand onto the board early and if they play slow, my guys are scarier. Burn, I lose, period and combo is pretty bleak, but they tend to get eaten by all the Counter-Top whom I'm aiming at...

19-20 people Sunday, 5 rounds

Round 1 vs monoblack Sui,nice kid, new to the format, deck is focused on pump & creature kill rather than discard & LD, which is fine (pump not so much, since I benefit from bad Moon as well)

Both games he comes out fast but I stabilize with scary huge monsters and mass remove his obstacles to my victory. Veteran Explorer reminds me why I love him so fiercely. No one ever wants to actually use removal on him, making him a fantastic chump blocker, and rarely do they benefit as much as I do with the extra land. In some matchups (none this weekend, sadly) his 'drawback' doesn't even apply (but played no 4c Thresh, Dredge, Affinity, etc etc).

no sideboarding due to nothing being superior to the MD equivalents (or simple not applicable).

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 vs 3c Landstill played by Josh Ciccio (wweenieking), talented player & a good deck...fantastic.

Game 1 we play a war of attrition until I can stick an Ob Nixilis, he makes a play mistake by tapping both his manlands next turn, I play a fetch and dome him for 15 between combat & ability. He has a fresh Deed on the board but too late.

In: 2x Grip, 4x Thoughtseize Out: 4x Maelstrom Pulse, 2x EE

Game 2 he gets silly early pressure with a Goyf & manlands. Goyf #2 after I reset is a 6/7. I stick a 6/6 Ob Nixilis & can eat the manland, go to 2, and make the Ob bigger than Goyf...except he has Submerge.

SB mistake changed to In: 4x Extirpate, 2x EE, x Maelstrom Pulse: 4x Cabal Therapy, 4x Thoughtseize

Game 3 we play a war of attrition again and large monsters do a tapdance on his face.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3 vs Rodney with Zoo, a very good local player with another good deck. Time to see how this goes.

Game 1 he comes out quickly but a Maelstrom Pulse on his double Lavamancer followed by large obnoxious monsters grinds him under. Explorer does my dirty bidding yet once again, giving me the mana to stabilize while stopping crucial chunks of my life from dribbling away. I get to use the extra mana, he gets to over extend into my removal. Grandeur from an extra Korlash starts the unfairness by turning a trade into a blowout.

In: 2 Extirpate Out: 2x Grip

Game 2 Zoo does what it does, getting me for exact damage right before I can stabilize.

Game 3 was just stupid as his deck decided to give him land after land after land. Mine gave me no olands, followed by a forest, EE hand that I kept. Drew a land on Turn 2...another forest...followed by a Stronghold. Eventually got a swamp about the time Rodney got a creature and we limped along. Second black source spelled almost immediate doom for Rodney who saw upwards of 75% of his mana this game.

3-0 (6-2)

Round vs Brent (misplayer) with 3c Landstill. Brent is one of the best control players I know, but we are the only undefeated players (earlier unintentional draw) and seem to believe each has the advantage so we each happily agree to a draw. Should have played him for the experience but needed to rehydrate and stop twitching from the stress.

3-0-1 (6-2)

Round 5 vs CJ with UGR Thresh (Counter-Top not Canadian). Yet another good player but I am much happier to get Counter-Top than either of the Bant Survival players or the 3-1 Burn player.

Game 1 CT does what it does and chips away at me with a small Goyf while stalling/countering me. I get a Goyf of my own to stick. I get a Korlash down after he Cliques away my Deed in my draw step but it gets Fire/Iced two turns in a row as Clique gets in, followed by a last attack & Bolt.

SB: Out: 4x Cabal Therapy, 4x Maelstrom Pulse, 1x Ob Nixilis, 1x E Witness In: 2x Krosan Grip 4x Choke 4x Extirpate

Game 2 I break up his CT with a timely Turn 3 Grip after he drops the pieces T1 & 2. He gets double Vedalken Shackels but I land Korlash which is bigger than his Island total. Sadly it gets Submerged twice and Fire/Iced once before it gets to finally connect. Since he is an 8/8 at that point, we have 2 hits & chump block before game 3.

Game 3 he gets a T2 Counterbalance that I counter with a Choke. CB blind flip counters 4 turns in a row...until I land a security Choke (not the card I really wanted to resolve in that string >.<) but he can't get pressure on me, thank gawd. Finally get to Grip it & Extirpate all of them. Meaning that my recursion outstrips his control and eventually a Witness bringing back a fetch with Ob Nixilis in play ends it.

4-0-1 (8-3)

Top 4 splits the generous credit and move on with their lives. I don't think this deck was 4-0-1/5-0 good nor am I the tightest player alive, but I will gladly take the results! And I do believe the deck has potential if ou are in a Burn/combo light environment.

[Phoenix Ignition]

No.

In today's Legacy there is no place for cards with 5cc (or more!)



4-0-1 (8-3)


Yeah, Elfrago I will go ahead and ignore your flaming on the deck without any playtesting.

Scrumdogg, how did you like the 4x EE with Deeds and Maelstrom pulse? Did EE only getting up to 2 ever bother you?

I guess I'd like to know if you would rather just splash white and grab swords and/or vindicate instead?

Also, what would you change now that you went through a tourney with it?

Congrats on the result!

[scrumdogg]

I thought EE at 2 would be fine, with my primary use at 3 against Moon effects - who would give me the third color :cool: But I really wanted the ability to cast EE@3 all day - Vedalken Shackles, Vendilion Clique etc etc. The trick is to get the manabase so it doesn't suck and is still fairly resilient to Waste, Stifle and Moon while not losing the ability to take advantage of Veteran Explorer & the grandeur of Korlash. A 3c manabase needs to be brainstormed & tested, imho, but I know that I still don't have the 2c manabase correct, although 24 lands worked very well for me all day. I love EE and would rather have it than more pinpoint removal ala Vindicate. Vindicate & Maelstrom Pulse would be competing for the same slot/role and unless I went to a Loam model with LD, I can't see losing Pulse. I loved the 12 sweeper-ish effects plus the Witnesses, it let me compensate for my speed and punish the opponent for over-extending into my 'helpless' board state.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Congrats on the finish. Very nice to see. Also nice to see that you like VE/Therapy shenanigans as well. :tongue:

While I'm not convinced about adding a third colour (white would clearly be best, since it gives us access to Knight of the Reliquary; on the other hand, that probably nullifies the need/desire for Korlash and Ob Nixilis), hard work on the area could certainly convince me. If you're running EE, I could definitely see that being a plus.

With only two colours, was EE more desirable than something like Snuff Out (which can freely target your own Explorers if need be)? Or... what about Crime/Punishment? Any thoughts on that front?

[scrumdogg]

Knight of the Reliquary is a huge incentive to go white, as it complements both Korlash & Ob Nixilis nicely, makes the curve better, and is yet another 'answer me or die' bomb. Maintaining green on the board, however, given the importance of Witness and the rest of the green spells could be very difficult. EE is still, somehow, underrated. I would rather have a flexible sweeper than pinpoint removal, especially removal that doesn't hit more than one category (ala Snuff Out). Crime/Punishment deserves testing, especially if more than 2 colors are in the mix, but it has the same problem as much of the rest of my version - speed. But one of the things I enjoy not only about Legacy but about decks such as this specifically is the variability of options. There is not necessarily 'one true path' to build the deck correctly, even assuming a standardized metagame (which is a myth). The 3 color version, a 2 color version, versions based on a Loam LD shell - all can be valid, and depending on what you face locally, a different one better than another from place to place.

Quick note on Veteran Explorer, while I love using him to flash back Cabal Therapy, I never worry about him dying. He is the best chump blocker in the universe and can even get damage through because NO ONE wants to block & kill him :cool: It's almost enough to make me tinker with a more aggro model and add equipment. 'Equip Jitte on Explorer, attack, blocks?'

[Maveric78f]

A list with veteran explorer and knight of the reliquary could play path to exile and ghost quarter efficiently.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

. Crime/Punishment deserves testing, especially if more than 2 colors are in the mix, but it has the same problem as much of the rest of my version - speed. But one of the things I enjoy not only about Legacy but about decks such as this specifically is the variability of options. There is not necessarily 'one true path' to build the deck correctly, even assuming a standardized metagame (which is a myth). The 3 color version, a 2 color version, versions based on a Loam LD shell - all can be valid, and depending on what you face locally, a different one better than another from place to place.



Wouldn't Crime be more beneficial than EE in a two-colour context? It gives you a greater flexibility of casting costs to sweep for essentially the same cost (but, of course, all in one go rather than slightly delayed). Using Punishment would be awesome, and certainly more fdeasible of KotR comes into the mix, but it strikes me that Crime might well just be preferable to EE in almost every context, especially if we stay GB.


Shrug. As you said, there's potential whichever way we look, so it's no big deal. I'd certainly like to try my hand at GBW with KotR and Punishment-action, though. Just for giggles. :tongue:

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

This definitely falls into the "danger of cool things," but if someone made a good BGW list of this deck with Knight of the Reliquary, I think Undiscovered Paradise as a one-of would be about the coolest thing ever. Ob Nixilis would be one happy motherfucking demon if he ever made his way to the Undiscovered Paradise. :eek:

[scrumdogg]

That would be awesome, inconsistent, but awesome :cool: And it couldn't hurt much in a 3 color manabase, helping to stabilize your colors. The major drawback is having to occasionally use it early and it setting back your mana development.

[Mordel]

I haven't played this particular deck at all, but I see a lot of similarities with my BGr explore rock deck. The deck had a big problem in the form of following up with an insane first two turns with face smashing though, which was the source of most of its losses, BUT combo was rarely a problem because combo would frequently find itself playing off the top if I was on the play or they couldn't get chants rolling on me. I had a pretty heavy discard suite at 2xduress 4xtherapy 4xthoughtseize sitting in the main. Burn was a nightmare for it because I had opted for red due to P.Blast/REB and blood moon, rather than white for stalling/protection elements.

This is just me talking out of my ass, but I think that a white splash is defnitely the way to take this. With white, you get Knight which is a comparatively inexspensive threat, with great synergy and works into the curve nicely if you are wanting to race and with white you get stuff like sphere of law for burn/grapeshot protection and you also get whatever means of stalling combo that you prefer on top of discard(which I see as somewhat moot if you just figure out a way to work more discard in). With white you have the ability to splash things like swords, but that seems like it could create a less focused deck and lead to a shitty rock build or whatever.
For the sake of testing, Knight and a few juicy sideboard pieces seem like enough to justify a splash that still keeps things tight.

If it was me testing this thing, I would probably avoid straying too far from the beaten path with utility lands in a build with knight. I'd probably limit things to a 1xdustbowl,1x stronghold, 2xurborg and 1xchasm(nice bonus=Ob.N synergy?) or something like that...maybe no bowl at all.

A single loam or crucible seems like it would be worthwhile too.

That's just what I'm thinkin' anyway.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I put together a BGW version of the deck a few days ago, and have been giving it a spin. Here are a few observations:

The white splash and KotR undermine the core principles of this deck, which ends up weakening both game plans. With KOTR, Korlash becomes much less desirable, and Ob Nixilis becomes just one other cool thing. Similarly, KotR is severely underpowered, since you can't dilute the deck's swamp-base too much for fear of neutralising that aspect. This means that you have no real access to manlands, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, Wasteland/Ghost Quarter/etc., all of the things that make KotR a real beating. I would much rather play GW Terrarium (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=346031&postcount=16) (or BGW Rock) instead.

The deck has just become much too frantic and all-around unstable to be worth it, in my opinion. The strengths of both approaches are ultimately diluted.

[Mordel]

What the fuck else did you put in? lol

Knight, a pair of scrublands and a savannah...gg. Eight or more fetches makes a small splash negligible and an urborg makes what isn't a swamp, a swamp...which the knight can handily fetch.

I don't know about others, but I know for a fact that my post that actually explains my reasoning for why knight would be a good choice covers the whole highlander land thing. Reading the post above yours for the win.

To sum things up:
-silver bullet lands are not necessary for justifying knight
-knight theoretically allows someone to run less in the way colourless lands
-two or three lands that produce white is all that is needed to support a knight being integrated
-knight supports Ob and Korlash by allowing for three landfalls in a turn and turning a basic forest or non-swamp into an urborg or whatever.

Please show your work as far as the reasoning for not including knight goes because a lot of the above post just restates opinions from prior posts, but happens to include knight.

I don't have much anything invested in knight, it's just an idea that I think has a lot more benefits than drawbacks...especially since the splash that allows it to be included is a colour that is typically beneficial against burn...

[Goaswerfraiejen]

What the fuck else did you put in? lol

Knight, a pair of scrublands and a savannah...gg. Eight or more fetches makes a small splash negligible and an urborg makes what isn't a swamp, a swamp...which the knight can handily fetch.


All I substituted in was 4x KotR for Eternal Witness, and two Scrublands and a Plains. I went to just 6 fetches because you need to account for the lands that VE is going to fetch.




I don't know about others, but I know for a fact that my post that actually explains my reasoning for why knight would be a good choice covers the whole highlander land thing. Reading the post above yours for the win.


First, there is no "win" in the post above mine. There's just solid reasons for including KotR (which I don't dispute). You're also right that there's no need to go overboard with Highlander lands--and I didn't. The deck visibly can't support that. The point that I was making above is that KotR is visibly better in a deck with more land options--nothing more. Your post actually wants more utility lands than I even allowed in the version of the deck that I was testing.

I don't disagree with your arguments for including KotR: what I'm saying is that the testing that I have done has not been favourable to its inclusion. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included: it only means that it's been poor in the testing that I've done so far. If you have testing results of your own to disclose, then by all means do so.



Please show your work as far as the reasoning for not including knight goes because a lot of the above post just restates opinions from prior posts, but happens to include knight.

I fail to see what more you want me to add. I included KotR to see how it would play out, and concluded that

-It interferes with the deck's other elements.
-Is superior to Ob Nixilis in general, but lacks the same amount of clout because of mana restrictions stemming from the Nixilis game-plan.
-Interferes with early-game mana production: my aim has been to cast it, and I've been screwed because of that.
-Is not a consistently very large threat.


As I said before, this isn't extensive or conclusive testing: it's just several games' worth (roughly 10). I'm putting the results out there for comparison, nothing more. I'm not making any normative claims about them. I also haven't given up on the testing. But so far, that's what's happened. Perhaps I've just had poor luck, or been playing like a dunce: nonetheless, that's what I have to report so far.


EDIT: I've had the opportunity of going through about 5 more games with KotR. I was definitely having horrid luck the first time around. While better this time, it's still not stellar. There's just quite a few kinks that need to be smoothed out for it to fit into the deck adequately. Even then, we'll see if it's ultimately worth it. I've included a Tabernacle and a Chasm as utility-lands to give KotR some kind of CA-generating ability, and that aspect is certainly working out fairly well. Without some kind of utility lands, I don't think it would be worth it at all. At the moment, I can still be convinced, but it will take much more work and more testing. There's a lot of streamlining still ahead.

[Mordel]

Taking witness out seems like a lackluster way to make space being as knight does not fill the holes left by witness being removed. I understand that they fill the same spot on the curve, but I'm not sold on their being the best cards to remove to make room for knights.

Just as an example, from Scrumdog's list, I'd consider cutting two witness, one pulse and a grip or something like that. Three might even be a good number because there are other plays that would take priority over windmilling one on turn three...that way a grip or something could be kept.

I think that having the potential to stop goyfs like nobody's business and allowing you to potentially go: play fetchland--->sac fetch and then activate--->fetch a fetch--->extend hand for gg because you just made a twelve point life swing are pretty good justifications. Making a stronghold, urborg or chasm appear more consistantly seems like icing on the cake.

A white splash does allow for vindicate if someone wants to take more advantage of the white splash, though it does create more reliance on white mana sources...vindi sure is sweet though.

White gives access to such staples as swords too which is pretty nice on top of bigger engineered explosions.

I was mostly looking for more reasoning in the form of scenarios and such. Anecotes are good readin' and help illustrate points.

[Sevryn]

maybe i'm just repeating something i've heard, but isn't running tombstalker and tarmogoyf in the same deck not-so-good synergy wise?

[FoulQ]

maybe i'm just repeating something i've heard, but isn't running tombstalker and tarmogoyf in the same deck not-so-good synergy wise?

Lol. Search on deckcheck containing both. It took me a full five seconds to scroll through the whole list with my mousewheel.

[TotallySweet]

maybe i'm just repeating something i've heard, but isn't running tombstalker and tarmogoyf in the same deck not-so-good synergy wise?

It's an unfortunate interaction, but your opponent having a graveyard generally makes it a-OK. Now Bob and tombstalker on the otherhand...

[Xero_2285]

Just throwing it out there, dunno if anyone has brought it up yet: Lotus Cobra + Crop Rotation.

Turn 1: Drop land and BoP
Turn 2: Use land and BoP to play Lotus Cobra, drop Fetch for the turn (gain 1 mana), fetch for whatever land (gain another mana) and tap for mana, Crop Rotation sacing said land to go get a fetch (gain a mana), sac fetch for whatever land (gaina a mana), tap land for mana.

5 mana turn 2, or turn 1 if you dropped Lotus Cobra on turn 1 plus abusing Landfall..... just a thought.

[scrumdogg]

Just throwing it out there, dunno if anyone has brought it up yet: Lotus Cobra + Crop Rotation.

Turn 1: Drop land and BoP
Turn 2: Use land and BoP to play Lotus Cobra, drop Fetch for the turn (gain 1 mana), fetch for whatever land (gain another mana) and tap for mana, Crop Rotation sacing said land to go get a fetch (gain a mana), sac fetch for whatever land (gaina a mana), tap land for mana.

5 mana turn 2, or turn 1 if you dropped Lotus Cobra on turn 1 plus abusing Landfall..... just a thought.

So your opening eight cards are at least (2) land, one of them being a fetch, BoP, Lotus Cobra, Crop Rotation, and then (3) other cards that let you abuse the 5 mana? Fantastic when it happens, but not something I would like to rely on. Your play also has issues in the face of any removal and most turn 0-2 counterspells. Furthermore, using cards like BoP which are only acceleration (can't attack or block effectively) that you lose when you utilize the great sweeping removal available to GB seems like poor synergy. One of the selling points of Veteran Explorer is that not only do I not care if he dies, I'm almost always actively seeking that result. I do agree that Lotus Cobra deserves some testing, but his fragility & need to remain in play probably doom that effort.

On the discussed tradeouts for the splash: I would never remove all the Witnesses from the maindeck, they help make this deck resilient enough to handle control and are good against everything else (or not more-bad in some cases) :cool: KotR does allow you to toolbox land, it would allow the use of (1) Volrath's Stronghold, for example and still be more likely to see it as needed than my list. But I would caution against getting too frisky with 'special' lands that A) need KotR to be in play to show up consistently and B) need Urborg also in play to not hamstring us as well. I love Tabernacle, but I realistically can't play it in a deck running Veteran Explorer (without some serious LD). And I would rather have Veteran Explorer (as my playset of Tabernacles sadly gathers more dust). Chasm is a fine card but I would have it sideboard. There is no player on these boards with a greater love of the 'toolbox' in a deck than me, but I've learned, at painful cost, that the toolbox needs to neither interfere with the normal operation of the deck nor completely suck if certain conditions are not met. I am confident we can discover that balance with this deck, but we aren't close yet. As for lands that can get replaced, going to (1) Stronghold and (2) Urborg seems an easy way to gain space, replacing a swamp with a Scrubland is also easy. What (2) lands did you remove to add the extra (2) fetches?