Bloodcheif Ascension timing?

[Melman]

Hey, so. I think I know how this works, but I'm not entirely sure. I have a Bloodcheif Ascension out, and my opponent is at 2. He casts a Bountiful Harvest, lets say. He has a bunch of lands out. Does he die before he gains the life, or does it happen at the same time and he lives, or what?

I feel like he dies, for the same reasons you cannot Lightning Bolt a 2/3 goyf (if there's no instants in the GY), but Im not sure. Help please.

[cdr]

It helps if you post the actual card, especially for ones that don't exist yet.


Bloodchief Ascension B
Enchantment
At the beginning of each end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension. (Damage causes loss of life.)
Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, if Bloodchief Ascension has three or more quest counters on it, you may have that player lose 2 life. If you do, you gain 2 life.


Bountiful Harvest 4G
Sorcery
You gain 1 life for each land you control.

You need to understand how spells resolve: the last part of a spell resolving is the spell being put into the graveyard. So the life is gained before Bloodchief Ascension can even trigger, much less resolve.

Tarmogoyf + Bolt has little in common; the reason the Goyf does not die is that State Based Actions are checked only when someone is about the get priority, and no one gets priority until the Bolt resolves and is in the yard.


607.2k. (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R607.2k.) As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell's resolution, the spell is put into its owner's graveyard. As the final part of an ability's resolution, the ability is removed from the stack and ceases to exist.

[Melman]

Alright that makes sense. Sorry for not posting the cards, and thank you.
This also means that if we're both at 2 and he bolts me, I lose, I'm guessing, because the game ends before the card is put in the GY.

[Malchar]

The game doesn't end before the card is put into the graveyard. However, you would still lose, but it's not until after the lightning bolt is done resolving. If you had more than three life, you would see the Ascension ability trigger and go on the stack. After that resolved, then your opponent would lose.

[cdr]

Alright that makes sense. Sorry for not posting the cards, and thank you.
This also means that if we're both at 2 and he bolts me, I lose, I'm guessing, because the game ends before the card is put in the GY.

Losing the game is a SBA, like creatures dying. See here (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R704.5.). You lose just after the Bolt hits the GY.

The sequence is:
- You're dealt 3
- The Bolt goes to the graveyard
- The Ascension triggers (but isn't yet on the stack)
- Since someone is about to get priority 1) SBAs are checked 2) triggered abilities are put on the stack

You die at (1), just before the ability goes on the stack.

[Melman]

Ok, cool. Another quick noob question, while I'm at it. In the Tarmogoyf case, the lightning bolt damage no longer goes on the stack, it resolves right away, under M10 rules. Does this mean that it will go on and resolve before the bolt hits the graveyard? Or is damage resolving a SBA, meaning its only checked when priority is passed.
Im just confused because you said that in the bountiful harvest case, the life is gained before Ascension even triggers. Seems to me this would mean the damage is dealt before the card hits the GY, I'm just not sure when it resolves. Another one of those (probably mistaken) "M10 changed every rule in the game ZOMG" cases I guess =/.

[parallax]

You cast Lightning Bolt on a 2/3 Tarmogoyf with no instants currently in any graveyards. The Bolt resolves. It deals 3 damage to the 'goyf. Then it is put into the graveyard. Then state-based actions are checked. Goyf is 3/4 with 3 damage and survives.

Damage from spells never went on the stack. The spell itself goes on the stack. When the spell resolves the damage happens.

[heroicraptor]

Damage from spells never went on the stack.

Pre-6th spell damage went on the stack.

[parallax]

Pre-6th spell damage went on the stack.

There was no stack pre-6th edition. There was a damage-prevention window.

[tivadar]

Im just confused because you said that in the bountiful harvest case, the life is gained before Ascension even triggers. Seems to me this would mean the damage is dealt before the card hits the GY, I'm just not sure when it resolves. Another one of those (probably mistaken) "M10 changed every rule in the game ZOMG" cases I guess =/.

Goyf actually took the damage when he was a 2/3, but him going to the graveyard isn't checked prior to him becoming a 3/4. In a sense, no one gets priority between the damage being dealt and the card going to the graveyard, so Goyf lives on.

I've always liked to view these things as "time slices". A player obtaining priority effectively denotes a new time slice. In a single time slice, even if multiple things happen, they essentially happen at the same time.

The difference with ascension is that its ability occurs at the time slice *after* the spell resolving/damage being dealt/card going to the graveyard. This happens because it's a triggered ability and not a static/substitution effect.

[new question split into new thread]