Best Win Condition for Control?

[Jak]

So this is a question that always troubles me when trying to put together a control deck, more specifically, a Counterbalance control deck. Now, say colors don't matter, you are just a heavy blue deck that needs a win condition.

I would list options, but I would rather leave this open since I can't really say them all.

[heroicraptor]

Tarmogoyf.

[Jak]

Okay, sure. Let's say besides Goyf. IE something with a little more protection built in.

[Tacosnape]

Doesn't Counterbalance provide said protection?

This aside, it completely depends on your build.

[Jak]

Doesn't Counterbalance provide said protection?

Yes, which is why I am saying besides Tarmogoyf. Something that can get there when you can't land Counterbalance.

[heroicraptor]

Inkwell Leviathan (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/30.html)?

[lorddotm]

Probably that new Sphinx, he seems pretty badass.

That or Mongoose.

[LostButSeeking]

Elspeth. Not only does she kill, she protects herself from tarmogoyf.

[Tacosnape]

If nothing's a factor besides likeliness to go the distance, I pick Quagnoth for being immune to countermagic/discard/most spot removal.

Elspeth or Garruk are generally my choices though. Plus they actually counter 4-drops with Counterbalance.

[Jason]

Rainbow Efreet seems ok. It allows you to hit CB for 4 as well.

Elspeth seems the best for 4 though.

[morgan_coke]

I'm a big fan of recurring threats, so I'd have to go with Crucible of Worlds/Nantuko Monastery/Bloodghast. Only really vulnerable to StP/Path to Exile. After that I'd go with Elspeth.

[Hanni]

Elspeth. Not only does she kill, she protects herself from tarmogoyf.


Elspeth or Garruk are generally my choices though. Plus they actually counter 4-drops with Counterbalance.


Elspeth seems the best for 4 though.


After that I'd go with Elspeth.

That.

I feel that Landstill is the strongest control deck in the format, so my second opinion would be Mishra's Factory.

However, I'm sure your going for a different approach.

I like Gigapede honestly, it self recurs and has Shroud. If you're in green, I'd go with him.

Really it all depends on what kind of control deck your going for. Is it blue based? If so, Intuition/Loam or Standstill are the best engines, and depending on those engines depends on the win condition. Is it black based? If so, Haunting Echoes seems solid, but what are your splash colors? Is it white based? If so, I'd go with Elspeth 100%. (I could keep going on with the color bases but you get the point).

[Nidd]

Gigapede is underrated, indeed.

Otherwise, I'm looking at Korlash. Seriously, that dude is so fucking great, I don't get why he sees no play.
He costs 4, grows, regenerates and isn't a dead draw ever!

[Tacosnape]

(I could keep going on with the color bases but you get the point).

What's your pick for Red?


Gigapede is underrated, indeed.

Otherwise, I'm looking at Korlash. Seriously, that dude is so fucking great, I don't get why he sees no play.
He costs 4, grows, regenerates and isn't a dead draw ever!

He also dies to the most common removal spell in the format, just like almost every other option. The point is finding one that's tricky to Swords. Planeswalkers, Shroud guys, and Sorceries (Echoes) all fill this role nicely.

[Muradin]

What's your pick for Red?

Banefire if you play enough actual lands (non-fetchlands) to make it lethal.

[Nidd]

I don't think there would be a Red Control Deck that could stall long enough to cast a lethal Banefire...

[godryk]

Fucking Mishra's Factory, although Elspeth is taking it's place. Seriously, some of you have some freudian thing with Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf can be included in Landstill, but Landstill players have kept on anal-raping me with Mishras and soldier tokens.

[Hanni]

What's your pick for Red?

Depends on if it's mono red or if it splashes a color. If it's mono red, the deck is really limited in options. It also depends what kind of mono red control deck it is. Shard Pheonix and Hammer of Bogardan used to be my favorite back in the day, even though they are no longer playable.

Mishra's Factory is an option.

No red creatures have Shroud or I-win to make them truly great in a control shell (at least that I can think of), and there's not many non-creature spells either. Seismic Assault comes to mind, if the deck runs Crucible (not as potent as Loam, but it makes topdecked lands relevant).

In all honesty, I really don't know. Maybe that's why there is no prevalant mono red control deck right now.

Some form of Red Stax maybe? Welder sounds like a great win condition when combined with some great artifact fat.

Rifter ran, well, Lightning Rift... but it wasn't mono red.

[johanessen]

Or Natural Order + Progentius. Sure it's one slot dedicated more, and if it gets countered is a 2x1, but is a 2-turn-clock guy. You need to make little changes to the build and get 4 noble hierarch in, but they aren't that bad (they are not just birds).

I tryed Elspeth and now my personal preference is Prog.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You guys are terrible.

Comprehensively:

Gigapede, Grave-Shell Scarab, Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, Vitu-Ghazi, Urza's Factory, most Planeswalkers. Haunting Echoes. Burning Wish. Any Wish, for that matter.

Utilibeats, but then you need to run more of them. They're also control/card draw slots though, depending on what creature you put there. Cards like Trinket Mage, Shriekmaw, FtK, Wickerbough, Kitchen Finks, Jens, Bob. You need to be careful though. Presumably you're running some sweepers. I like Venser and Masked Admirers a lot too. Eternal Witness is fantastic. Actually, Eternal Witness is probably the winner in this category.

In green, then, Gigapede and Witness. In white, E. Dragon and Decree. In blue, Urza's Factory and Meloku. In black, Haunting Echoes and Helldozer/Oona/Soren (in order of what's probably the worst to best). In red, Burning Wish and your burn spells generally.

[Hanni]

@ IBA

Right, but most of what you listed is subpar compared to other options these days.

Grave-shell is solid. 4 power for 5 mana is a little inefficient, but it's better than most of the other options.

DoJ is good, but it's typically run alongside Elspeth.

Vitu and Urza's are just subpar compared to other options. While they can be used, and honestly if your control deck is designed to be extremely slow and is capable of paying 7 mana a turn for a 2/2, then it doesn't matter what win condition you use. Why start winning after you have 7 mana, and win like 6 turns later, when you can pay 4 mana for an Elspeth and win like 4 turns later?

I personally think Eternal Dragon sucks. Yes, it's great for the mana fixing. As far as being a win condition... 5 mana to recur, 7 mana to cast means you could just as easily win with something else. It also eats StP. As a win condition in white, I'd sooner run Hoofprints of the Stag or the new Acension card, which are both replaced in white by Elspeth. Elspeth is just that good.

Utilibeats are decent, but aren't the greatest win conditions. Usually they are just a supplement to the main win condition.

Eternal Witness is slow. If you like playing slow control decks, sure. He grabs you more control, so you can keep playing control, while occasionally popping in for 2 damage. As a supplement win condition, he's great. As a main win condition, he's too slow. Why play a 40 turn game, though, when you can sweep the board, drop your win condition, and win several turns later if the opponent cannot answer it (or you answer their answers)? The same goes for Trinket Mage, when not being used to grab Dreadnought or Grindstone. Dark Confidant is really bad at winning on his own without something like Tombstalker. Card advantage is great but you have to do something with those cards to actually win, and a 2/1 rarely goes the distance (this applies to most utilibeats).

Meluko is worse than other options too. If you're straight mono blue... well, aside from me seeing little disadvantages for splashing another color, I'd think manlands, Sower of Temptation, or Vedalkan Shackles would be better (unless of course you're playing MUC with B2B... but I haven't seen that deck do anything significant lately).

In red, if you're running burn in control, it's as creature removal, and you more than likely won't have enough to actually kill the opponent unless it recurs like Hammer of Bogardan. Burning Wish is great, but what are you grabbing in mono red?

Of course if you splash colors, it opens you up to more efficient options.

Cards not named but worth mentioning:

Tombstalker
Worm Harvest
Painter/Grindstone

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hoofprints gets countered. Hoofprints dies. Hoofprints sits there early game doing nothing.

Eternal Dragon and Urza's Factory don't do these things. Well, the latter to Wasteland, and the former to StP, but these are their only vulnerabilities. Being immune to most removal makes playing around the removal you do have to worry about a lot easier.

Most kill conditions in control are slow. Only a few big splashy dudes like Oona and Meloku are worth running, usually because they can make an army in response to removal.

If you're playing mono red in Legacy you're doing it wrong; I'm a fan of the archetype and it just won't work in this format. In Red Truffle Shuffle, though, Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony mid-to-late game with double Top active makes a great insta win. Alternately, wishing for Haunting Echoes, Banefire, Decree of Justice, Call the Skybreaker, etc..

I did forget to include combo kills. Those sometimes work. Painter Grindstone is an obvious one. Their additional vulnerability os made up for by offering speed.

But running cards like Tombstalker or Goyf is silly. You don't have the pressure to back those threats up, because you're running all those control cards in those slots instead.

[Nidd]

IBA, so what's your opinion on Korlash? He also only dies to remove effects and spells that don't allow regeneration. but which decks play cards like, say, terminate? I can't think of any.

[Hanni]

My point wasn't that certain cards can work so much as that certain cards are just better at doing so. If you're a control player, there are some win conditions that are just stronger and/or more efficient than others. In white, Elspeth > Eternal Dragon, for example.

Most control decks splash colors, which give them access to the better win conditions. I stand firmly behind my belief that Landstill is the best control deck in the format, and that is because of cards like Elspeth.

[Digital Devil]

In white, Elspeth is an obvious choice. I've also seen a weird Landstill list packing 3x Exalted Angel as a wincon. It was capable of winning almost impossible matchups, as proven against Burn and Merfolk. I think it's bad without acceleration, and I also think the guy was just *a bit* lucky, though; plus no one plays 6cc spells, so Angel is useless with CBalance. Gigapede is my favourite green card. Ever. It's almost impossible to get rid of him. Combine this with Lftl and you can recur it forever. In black, I'm generally liking Tombstalker. It hasn't built-in protection, but it's a huge, evasive beatstick. In red, well... Maybe Magus of the Moon (I like Moon Threshold builds, so it can be used to ensure and unrecoverable situation). Last, but not least, there's blue. I'd go with Rainbow Efreet or Guile. Generally speaking, I'm liking Painter/Stone: plus, you can combine Painter and Llawan to hose those pesky aggro decks. These are just the ideas of a terrible player (me).

[GGoober]

Decree of Justice.

Even without Humility, Decree is a fast clock and a surprise fog. With Humility, it's a brutal beating.

Against many decks, I've cycled Decree during the blocking phase for 7-8 tokens, chumped 2 Goyfs, and swing in for 4-5 and with Factories, and putting up an impressive comeback with a fast clock while holding the defense line with the remaining tokens to block.

Elspeth is by far the best win-condition, but Decree is sudden and can skew games due to the instant-speed factor.

[Elfrago]

But running cards like Tombstalker or Goyf is silly.

Tombstalker ain't silly.
First it's cheap, allowing you to keep mana open for counterspells.
Second, he is surprisingly hard to remove. Thanks to thoughness, cost, and color he gets around burn, snuff out, EE, deed, etc etc.
Third, there is a fair number of decks with few or no outs to a quick resolved stalker, sometimes quickly playing dropping it gets the job done.

In my experience, only Elspeth is better than stalker, she only misses a "+1: target opponent gets you a coffee".

[MattH]

Bitterblossom, the black Elspeth, is pretty good (as long as you're not running Deed).

[rockout]

The problem with bitter blossom is the life loss. You are playing control and when facing an aggresive deck that can put you on a quick clock from t1 losing a life a turn just to get a block isn't efficient enough.

Elspeth is always good. Decree is really only good turns 5-100. Mishra's + Crucible is the nuts. Hey what deck runs basically all of the ones I mentioned? Landstill.

Underrated control cards are hoofprints of the stag and I'm hoping luminarch ascension from zendikar.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Elspeth is always good. Decree is really only good turns 5-100.

So you mean during exactly one turn, if you wouldn't rather be casting Wrath, Elspeth is better.


Underrated control cards are hoofprints of the stag and I'm hoping luminarch ascension from zendikar.

Hoofprints is meh. Luminarch Ascension assumes you've already won. Sacred Mesa is almost always better than both of these.

[rockout]

Sacred Mesa costs you 1W a turn to keep it going. Fuck that POS.


So you mean during exactly one turn, if you wouldn't rather be casting Wrath, Elspeth is better.


Did I bring Wrath into the Equation? No.

[paK0]

The problem with bitter blossom is the life loss. You are playing control and when facing an aggresive deck that can put you on a quick clock from t1 losing a life a turn just to get a block isn't efficient enough.



Sounds better than 3-5 dmg every turn.....

[Hanni]

Sounds better than 3-5 dmg every turn.....

Right, but it's not a matter of efficiency, it's a matter of whether or not there are better cards that either have a similar effect or are a better win condition. Typically win conditions that fulfill multiple roles tend to be the most common and most played. Which is why everyone keeps saying Elspeth. In a control deck, 2 mana vs 4 mana is mostly irrelevant, and you don't lose life. It's bad for control to lose life. Bitterblossom is in typical EE and Deed range, and it's also answerable by more cards (like Krosan Grip) than Elspeth. On top of that, Elspeth's two other abilities are what truly make it superior to other control win conditions. Mishra's Factory + Elspeth = 4 turn clock. Elspeth + 1 token = 5 turn clock. If the game is defensive enough to get to Elspeth's ultimate, you now have indestructible 1/1 blockers. Once you've got enough of those in place, you either do the turn 4 or turn 5 clock to end the game. Versatile, resilient, defensive, and a quick ass clock. Done deal, IMO.

[pippo84]

Elspeth as everyone said, or for multiple slots Natural Order/Progenitus or Phyrexian Dreadnought/Stifle if you can protect it well.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Sacred Mesa costs you 1W a turn to keep it going. Fuck that POS.

You generally don't need to cast other spells once Mesa resolves anyway, so it really doesn't matter.


Did I bring Wrath into the Equation? No.

And yet I did. Because it's relevant. DoJ coming online turns 5-6 is hardly relevant, because you're not using kill conditions before then in most situations.

[Hanni]

And yet I did. Because it's relevant. DoJ coming online turns 5-6 is hardly relevant, because you're not using kill conditions before then in most situations.

That's what I LOVE about Elspeth. As long as the board is clear, and you play around Daze if that's what you have to do, you drop Elspeth as soon as you can cast it and win from there.

Suppose your opponent has a clear board and you're not worried about Daze, whether you have FoW backup or they don't play blue. It's turn 4 and you have 1 Factory, 1 Island, and 2 Plains on the board. You drop Elspeth and ramp to 5, make a 1/1 token. Next turn, you swing for 6, the turn after that 6, the turn after that 6. If they had 2 damage done to themselves via fetchlands, you just killed the opponent in 3 turns starting on turn 4 (starting on turn 5 if you count when it starts swinging, and it takes 4 turns if you count it not doing anything the turn it came into play). That's just disgusting.

What other control win condition can win so fast, yet play so defensive when it needs to? i.e 1/1 tokens to chump block and/or make everything you control indestructible, in addition to its crazy fast clock? Not saying the above example is the typical norm, since few decks are going to have a clear board state for that long without either playing a creature or playing removal, but you get my point.

Let's say they did play a creature, your Factory can still swing for 5, and then you start making chump blockers on the following turn; either they keep swinging into them and you get to swing with a 2/2 Factory, or they hold their guy back and you make a second 1/1 token, and then you follow the next turn up with a 5/5 flying Factory. Add on top of THAT, it's a Planeswalker; so no-go for standard artifact/enchant removal or standard creature removal. Oblivion Ring, Vindicate, and Maelstrom Pulse. Kind of limited. Of course burn can work too, but ramped to 5 counters the turn it comes into play, it easily eats one Bolt. I don't really count creatures in this, because unless they have evasion or trample, they're getting chump blocked (you don't drop Elspeth unless you can protect Elspeth). Couple that with your own removal? Yea, I'm voting Elspeth as the absolute best control win condition ever printed. I'm sure most everyone agrees with me, though.

Which brings up the question: if you have access to white, why would you play any other win condition in control? The only answer I can see is the restriction of WW; but still, isn't that worth playing some so close to being broken?

Quite honestly, I'm just waiting to see Elspeth start appearing in more decks, like U/G/w CounterTop Thresh (replacing stuff like Rhox or Sower). These decks are half aggro and half control, where the fact that they already have fat blockers like Tarmogoyf in play to keep Elspeth protected rather than use WoG is almost as effective (the opponent can removal Goyf, which makes it a little less surefire). Still, usually a resolved Elspeth = gg. Goyf is a 7/8 flyer? lol...

[Nidd]

I would not call Sower shit. He doesn't care about Goyfwars, because he also reads "+1 Goyf, lol!".

Sower is bad against combo, but against most decks he is pretty good.

[Mordel]

Meloku? Really? ...Really?!

Fuck. I hate Meloku. I begrudgingly tried Meloku because a friend of mine insisted. I didn't like Meloku at all for a few reasons:

A mono blue deck is where you will generally see Meloku and mono blue likes to keep its lands on the table. There are random occasions when "trade routing" a land in response to something is nice, but that is sort of a frill, rather than a determining factor in and of itself.

I also didn't like that it would take a turn or two of halting land drops basically in order to get faster clock than a spire golem going and a deed or more specifically, a EE that is snuck out can negate my wasted land drops.

Honestly though, my biggest issue with Meloku is largely connected with losing a land drop and in testing(though not a shitload, perse) I absolutely hated that.

Oona also pissed me off in that she has no built in protection and I would be somewhat open to EOT non-sense when I decided I wanted to get more than a few tokens.

Of all the blue MUC win conditions, the one that I was pretty skeptical about, which IBA suggested that I was extremely surprised with was Call of the Skybreaker. The shit was insane. I generally take the old school approach to MUC and avoid running fetches and generally go straight for islands and maybe a few utility lands and CoS proved awesome. One token on its own was a four turn clock, if unmolested, the clock gets faster and retrace obviously acts as a protection mechanic. For MUC, I have always felt that a win condition can't be squishy and CoS delivers.

For a bit I was toying with masticore(both of them...though not at the same time) too, but the pinging was being used frequently enough.

CoS is most definitely my vote for best MuC win condition when accompanying good old Morphling that is still fine for swinging post M10 imho.

[Hanni]

I didn't mean that Rhox and Sower are "shit," I meant that as just a filler word. I'll edit it with the word stuff so no one else misunderstands what I meant.

[rockout]

And yet I did. Because it's relevant. DoJ coming online turns 5-6 is hardly relevant, because you're not using kill conditions before then in most situations.

The question is Best Win Condition for Control, not how to use wrath in addition to your control elements and win conditions. That's more of a question for the landstill thread. Feel free to take your comment there.

[Tea]

The term “Best win condition for control” is relative to several aspects: other cards of your deck, metagame.

[DragoFireheart]

Dream Halls?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I may have sentimental attachements to Meloku. It can be a fantastic anti-aggro card, but it is of course vulnerable to Swords and Snuff Out.

Call the Skybreaker is a damned good card, but it's poor against aggro until the late game since you can't, y'know, get it out before then.


The question is Best Win Condition for Control, not how to use wrath in addition to your control elements and win conditions. That's more of a question for the landstill thread. Feel free to take your comment there.

The best win condition for control is one that works with the cards a given control deck plays. Hence why the answer isn't "Tarmogoyf". The best kill conditions aren't the ones that come online fastest but have the most resilience and utility.

[Infinitium]

Surprise combos is usually worth it imo, partly because they can actually finish the game before the opponent can deal with you stabilizing. My current favourite is LftL(x2) + Spellweaver Helix + Time Warp backed up by Gigapede in an Ugb Intuition shell since it makes consecutive Intuitions matter mid-lategame and allows me to break spells like Deed/Innocent Blood, but I'm seriously interested in Gifts Ungiven -> Hexmage/Dark Depths/Grim Discovery/Regrowth as is.

I'm actually not all that hot about Elspeth as a control finisher tbh because of the fact that you generally need to be winning for her not to be a fog or two. Chumpblocking whilst enabling previously dead removal isn't that viable a strategy.

[iamajellydonut]

On Topic Question: Why do you need to have a strict "win condition"?

I mean, what's wrong with Trinket Mage beats? You have the board (relatively) under control anyway (else it wouldn't be called control), so why water down your deck with things that do nothing other than strictly beat face? Why not play cards that have an effect early/mid/late, but can still beat for the win? Factory works as mana as well as beats, Trinket Mage as a tutor, Spellstutter as a counter, etc.

[Illissius]

I know I kept wanting a straight-up blue flier with shroud bigger than a freaking Zephid. Now they've printed Sphinx of Jwar Isle, and I can't remember what deck I wanted it for.

[Nidd]

On Topic Question: Why do you need to have a strict "win condition"?

I mean, what's wrong with Trinket Mage beats? You have the board (relatively) under control anyway (else it wouldn't be called control), so why water down your deck with things that do nothing other than strictly beat face? Why not play cards that have an effect early/mid/late, but can still beat for the win? Factory works as mana as well as beats, Trinket Mage as a tutor, Spellstutter as a counter, etc.
How about Sower then? He beats face AND is a piece of board control? Sounds like he would be the perfect finisher.

[Citrus-God]

On Topic Question: Why do you need to have a strict "win condition"?

I mean, what's wrong with Trinket Mage beats? You have the board (relatively) under control anyway (else it wouldn't be called control), so why water down your deck with things that do nothing other than strictly beat face? Why not play cards that have an effect early/mid/late, but can still beat for the win? Factory works as mana as well as beats, Trinket Mage as a tutor, Spellstutter as a counter, etc.

Because those win conditions don't actually "win." Sure, they have to serve other purposes, but those purposes dont actually take away from the fact that it's a win condition first, utility second. For example, Elspeth makes tokens, but those tokens are blockers. Problem is that those blockers are awful: things trample over them, those solder tokens get Fire [// Ice], they cant block fliers, and so it goes. What makes Elspeth good is because not only does it make soldier tokens, but the mileage is on the fact that it can pump mere soldier tokens.
Which leads to DoJ as well, which is an awful fog effect, but trades with some creatures at best if used as a fog effect. But what makes DoJ good is because when you have enough lands in play, it applies way more pressure to the opponent compared to you just spinning your silly Top and chaining Standstills. Sometimes, you have to win with a deck like Landstill. DoJ can either make a lot of soldier tokens, thus ensuring your inevitable win late game, or you can cast it with at least 8 lands in play for two 4/4 flying angel tokens. You cast for those Angel tokens because they either help you win the game a lot faster or your game plan is to be the aggressor once you have a stabilized mana base online. You tend to do this a lot against Aggro Loam and Survival.

[4eak]

What should any wincon be? Every deck wants cards that are: rarely/never dead, mana efficient, disrupt your opponent, and extremely difficult to answer. The only offensive effects in the game deal lifeloss, mill the opponent, or are cards that say "you win the game/opponent loses game". All other effects are either defensive or simply enablers (e.g. mana acceleration is offensive when it is used/combos to cast offensive spells, and likewise for defensive spells; Stifle is an offensive enabler when it enables Dreadnought, and defensive when it counters a fetchland which your opponent would use to play threats; etc.). Actual wincons will always have some offensive element (obvious). Effective wincons are usually more than lifeloss dealers though; efficient wincons generally pull double duty as both offensive and defensive cards.

Asking "what is the best wincon?" must take into account not just the ability to win the game, but the ability to stop your opponent from winning.

Tarmogoyf is the best win condition in the format. I've seen Storm combo win with tarmogoyf; the card is ubiquitous for a reason. He is undercosted (in many ways), he acts as both a blocker and attacker, he is often too large for damage-based control, and he improves the early game against aggressive, heavy-creature decks. The raw efficiency of the card, coupled with his ability to play both defensive and offensive roles makes him the best (standalone) win condition in the format. How many times were you sad to topdeck a Goyf? He hardly possesses the traditional characteristics of a wincon for several archetypes, but his cheap, raw efficiency is so back-breaking that Goyf belongs in more decks than we'd initially expect. I think Goyf isn't just the best wincon for Counterbalance control decks, Fish, and aggro, but even more dedicated control decks must consider Goyf a top contender.

It just so happens in Legacy that the most cost-efficient wincons have split utility between offense and defense. It is more likely for WotC to (mistakenly) undervalue the cost-efficient wincons which have the dual-role because both effects are usually small enough to fly under some arbitrary radar. They don't print a splashable [:2: for 10/1] (standalone) or [:2: for 1/1, Flash: Counterspell + StP/DE], but they might not immediately realize the value of a [:2: for 5/6]. The sum utility of the offensive and defensive values of these aggro-control wincons is generally higher than the value of comparably costed wincons fit for more dedicated roles, which is unfortunate. Magic is destined to be aggro-control centric given human-error in designing cards, and choosing wincons for a control deck will inevitably be influenced by this concern.

It also just so happens that the most cost-efficient wincons are low-cc (which means that control decks will become more and more tempo oriented, adjusting mana curves to abuse the most efficient cards). It is certainly easier to print low-cc awesomeness than high-cc awesomeness, particularly as it is more difficult to see the imbalance of a low-cc card. So, a :1::g: 5/6 might have made it into production, but I really don't see a :3::g: 10/12 (maintaining splashability) as being something that would have flown past the radar. This deflation of the mana-curve has large implications for choosing the best wincon, even for decks which traditionally abuse higher-cc wincons (dedicated control).


@ Jak.


So this is a question that always troubles me when trying to put together a control deck, more specifically, a Counterbalance control deck. Now, say colors don't matter, you are just a heavy blue deck that needs a win condition

It depends if that heavy blue deck is an aggro-control or a dedicated control deck. The former is versatile and wins in short windows of opportunity, while the latter is focused (often specifically metagamed) and wins with inevitability. Optimal win-condition characteristics for aggro-control and dedicated control decks differ greatly, which parallels and is perhaps even caused by: the differences in the point at which these decks stabilize, the duration of that stability, and the degree to which each archetype seeks to answer/disrupt the opponent.

If you are playing Counterbalance, then you are likely going to play an aggro-control role, not dedicated control. You need versatile, low cost win conditions that can abuse even the smallest windows of stability which are often sporadically created throughout the game, particularly in the early stages. The most successful aggro-control wincons (outside of Goyf) provide versatile utility and/or tempo. In no particular order, here are some obvious choices for a Counterbalance deck.


Nimble Mongoose -- Proactively answering targeted removal
Trinket Mage -- CA and Versatile Tutor
Dark Confidant -- CA Engine which shuts out the opponent if unanswered
Rhox War Monk -- Lifegain answers most win cons
Sower of Temptation -- Temporary/Conditional CA. Often reads: 4cc for 2/2 Flyer + Goyf + temporarily remove opponent's Goyf.
Trygon Predator -- Evasion, constant DE effect
Qasali Pridemage -- +1/+1 on the table, Instant DE effect
Noble Hierarch -- +1/+1 on the table, Wins Goyf wars, answers opposing mana denial, and mana-accel.
Mishra's Factory -- Combos with cards like Loam/CoW/Standstill, is mana-cheap in the short term, and can be difficult to answer for many decks.

You'll notice that all of these are very mana efficient when compared to the rest of magic. The value of some of their effects may have been too difficult for the developers to understand when first making these cards.

Most of these win conditions do more than just win the game; they are defensively quite powerful and they can take you from losing positions to winning ones. CA producers help draw the answer you need in losing positions, move you from even positions to winning ones (duh), or snowball winning positions into even better ones. The rest of the creatures attempt to directly answer the opponent themselves, through Virtual CA, DE effects, answering mana denial, or answering aggro strategies. While these aren't game breakers by themselves, their effects are profound for their costs. These cards are multi-functional, which suits a style of play which must remain versatile. You'll notice that mana-cost is fairly low for these wincons, and that is a key part of an aggro-control wincon: the low cost allows it to be played/used at more stages of the game, which enables the aggro-control deck to switch between the aggro and control roles more seemlessly.

Non-counterbalance aggro-control wincons vary even more (probably the most diverse group of wincons in Legacy). Tribal, Zoo (Red Fish/Burn), Suicide Black, pre-m10 D&T, etc. showcase a great number of effective aggro-control wincons. The vast majority of aggro-control wincons are independently powerful, yet quite answerable. Conversely, dedicated control must ensure its wincons are nearly immune to opposing defensive strategies because control often cannot afford to run as many wincons in the first place. So, instead of distributing the risk of disruption by increasing the quantity of threats, dedicated control decks distribute these risks by diversifying the types of threats and choosing threats which have much stronger defensive qualities. The wincon choices are not mutually exclusive though. Aggro-control wincons can intersect with the somewhat tempo-oriented dedicated control wincons at three points:

Combolicious Wincons:

Phyrexian Dreadnought/Stifle
Painter/Servant
Standstill/Nantuko Monastery/Mishra's Factory
NO/Prog


Recursive Wincons:

Gigapede
Eternal Witness
Worm Harvest
CoW/Loam/Nantuko Monastery/Mishra's Factory


Plain Fat Wincons:

Tarmogoyf (assuming magic is being played with cards hitting GYs, it might be a 1-card combo ;P)
Tombstalker
Doran
Coatl


In aggro-control decks, these wincons are the long-term game 'finishers' which complement the small critters, while in dedicated control decks these wincons are often short-term, tempo-based wincons which complement the long-term 'finishers'.

Some cards which are easier to peg as dedicated control wincons:


Elspeth
Eternal Dragon
Decree of Justice
Sacred Mesa
Rainbow efreet
Meloku
CtS
Morphling
The New Zephid
Haunting Echoes
Oona


They are all expensive, but they are seriously difficult to answer, possess some fairly unique traits, and are somewhat efficient (not as efficient per mana as the low-cc cards though). White, without a doubt, has the best pure dedicated control wincons, as all of them effectively play both defensive and offensive roles. They aren't as efficient, but part of what makes dedicated control decks effective is the ability to abuse their mana-base more effectively over time than other decks. The advantage of untapping with a control deck in the mid and late game, and the ability to consistently spend it on relevant spells is one of the characterstics which set them apart from other decks. Many of these wincons will abuse the strength of late-game dedicated control deck manabases.

Selecting wincons almost always boils down to raw cost-efficiency. Quantifying the defensive aspects of cards can be difficult, but we make that judgement call in every deck we play/build. Since your deck is Counterbalance-based, stick to the Fishy creatures which are so very efficient and curve out that CB nicely.





peace,
4eak

[luckymartyr]

I'm a pretty big fan of vendillion clique. Flash, flying, 3 power and added ability for 3 mana is pretty good.