[Deck] Berserk Stompy

[Otter]

The plan against Zoo really is to just draw a lot of pump and ride a Boggle/Ledgewalker to victory. Unless they tap out, it's not worth risking the all-in play on anything else with all their burn and Paths. When they SB, Invigorate/BotH are both sick against Clasm/Fallout/Spout. Really, you just have to combo them or get a draw with a lot of Rancors. They get rocked by Rancor pretty hard.

[Gui]

Which is a far better explanation than "play silhana ftw", right? That's the opinion I wanted to know.

[Otter]

Which is a far better explanation than "play silhana ftw", right? That's the opinion I wanted to know.

Yeah, I do wish there was a better gameplan for the matchup, but there really isn't. There's no getting around the fact that they have better creatures, better removal, and reach. Trollshroud and speed are our advantages, so we need to mulligan for that plan and get as much out of it as we can. Also, don't play very defensively, even if you're not holding Berserk. It's a better plan to gamble on racing them by drawing into pump than trying to hold off a 4/5 Goyf and a 3/3 Nacatal with our creature base. Don't try to stall by going 1-for-1 with repeated Rancor blocking either, it hurts if they bolt your guy in response to Rancor, it's more of a last resort -- you're much better off taking the offense with Rancor. If things start going badly, just chump with all of your guys except something shrouded and pray that you draw into the combo.

[swordoffireandice]

Vines of Vastwood should also be a good card against Zoo. It is anti Bolt/StP/Helix/Chain Lightning card. In the offensive it can also be used to avoid a Stp/Bolt and pump if you have the mana. The pump is pretty important because our creatures are smaller.

[Otter]

I’m going to do a bunch of testing to compare my normal version with my troll version. If you just play the normal version, at least that testing should be interesting for everyone anyways. Here’s the normal list:

15/2 Land Berserk Stompy
15 Forest

4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
2 Scryb Sprites
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhanna Ledgewalker
4 Slippery Boggle

4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
2 Briar Shield

SB:
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Forest
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Seeds of Innocence
2 Krosan Grip
2 Vines of Vastwood


Berserk Troll Stompy
16 Forest

4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Scryb Ranger
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Silhanna Ledgewalker
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

2 Might of Old Krosa
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Berserk

SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod’s Crypt

Classic BS vs Zoo
1 – BS mulls to 6 (open 4 lands, 1 guy), opens with Sprite/Kavu, both die to removal. Zoo beats with Goyf/Pridemage until BS finds another critter which gets ‘zerked for the kill. BS
2 – BS mulls to 5 (no lands x2), gets a bunch of guys removed. Zoo wins race against Rancor’d Boggle. Zoo
3 – Zoo kills guys while hitting with Ape, BS eventually finds Boggle, so Zoo goes all-in and taps out for Goyf. BS can’t get enough pump to go lethal and dies to Goyf. Zoo
4 – Zoo opens with some Lavamancers, slaughters everything BS plays until a Ledgewalker. BS gets two Krosa for pump, but no Berserk to finish it and dies to KotR. Zoo
5 – Zoo mulls to 6 (no lands), BS keeps Boggle, 1 land, and pump. BS sits there and plays Rancors/Briars on Boggle while Zoo beats down with Goyf. Eventually BS finds forest #2 and wins with 2x Berserk. BS
6 – BS tries to Rancor an Elite, gets it countered by Path. Zoo camps Lavamancer to keep BS from playing critters. BS dies horribly to Goyfs while unable to stick a guy under Lavamancer. Zoo
7 – BS gets a Kavu down with 2x Invigorate in hand, it gets Path’d after one Invigorate is used. BS stalls forever with a Boggle, never finds Berserk and eventually dies. Zoo
8 – BS gets a Rancor/Briar Shielded Elite down, Zoo can’t find a way to get it off the board and eventually dies to it in a close race. BS
9 – BS has a Ledgewalker but can’t find enough pump to win with Berserk before getting flattened by double Nacatl and a bunch of burn. Zoo
10 – BS draws a bunch of Boggles and a Rancor, forcing Zoo to make all sorts of awful trades with pump spell and Boggles. Zoo eventually runs out of gas and dies to a Boggle. BS
11 – Zoo removes a couple of BS’s guys, then lands a Goyf that’s just bigger than anything BS can come up with. BS tries to suicide a swarm of guys through Goyf, but Zoo plays more dudes and wins. Zoo
12 – Zoo removes BS’s first guy, then has to race since BS gets a Ledgewalker. BS combos and that’s all she wrote. BS
13 – BS has a Boggle, multiple Berserks, and pumps, but never finds a second land. Zoo
14 – BS gets double Invigorate + Predator and Zoo can’t find a Path to get the Predator off the board. BS
15 – BS has a Sentinel and an Elite in its opener, the Sentinel gets bolted, leaving Zoo with only a Savannah untapped. BS figures if Zoo has Path the game is probably over anyways since BS has no more creatures anyways, goes all-in on the combo and Zoo doesn’t have the Path. BS
16 – BS’s early plays get wrecked, can’t find a shrouded guy. Zoo
17 – Zoo mulls to six (mana). BS gets a giant Predator, ends up trading it for 2 Goyfs and bringing Zoo to 1 life. Zoo drops a giant KotR and BS can’t manage to get the last point in. Zoo
18 – Zoo mulls to six (mana). BS wins a race of Briar/Rancor’d Ledgewalker against 2x Nacatl because Zoo didn’t see a Plains. But then again, BS didn’t see a Berserk either. BS
19 – Zoo tries to Bolt in response to a Rancor, gets blown out by Invigorate. It can’t deal with the Rancor without making some bad trades and eventually dies. BS
20 – BS has the combo, but can’t stick a creature long enough for it to matter. Zoo


Final score: BS: 9, Zoo: 11

These were all played like game one, so we assume that BS didn’t know it was playing against Zoo and therefore didn’t mulligan aggressively into shroud, which does improve the matchup. Neither deck has anything very relevant to board in, BS would get a pair of VotV and Zoo might get Firespout/Pyroclasm/Fallout or Jitte depending on their build.

A few things to note:
-Elite is good, as it’s the only non-shrouded guy that doesn’t just die to the damn Lavamancer and it also can block Ape (or a single pumped Steppe Lynx/Figure of Destiny, whatever they run in the Ape slot).
-Most every game was dependant on if BS found shroud and how much removal Zoo found
-Rancor and Briar Shield were absolutely horrible and got 2-for-1’d almost every time if they weren’t going on shrouded guys
-Kavu Predator was pretty bad, even with six counters on it, it’d trade with a Path or a Goyf and burn. It had a game or two of being terrifying, but also plenty of not being terrifying.
-I don’t think I was playing perfectly and probably could have squeezed another point of damage or two out of some of the games, which is important because when BS lost it was often just a few points short of a kill.

Berserk Troll Stompy vs Zoo
1 – BS loses a bunch of guys to Lavamancer and burn, sticks a Rancored Ledgewalker. BS loses the race by a turn. Zoo
2 – BS mulls to five to find land. Zoo has double Nacatl and some burn. Zoo
3 – Zoo draws tons of burn but only an Ape for pressure, which trades hits with a Ledgewalker. After five or so turns later Zoo finds some Nacatls and Goyfs while BS finds pump and ‘zerk for the kill. BS.
4 – BS draws a ton of Scryb Rangers and land, dies to Goyf/Nacatl. Zoo
5 – Zoo applies early pressure, BS gets down a Troll and then double ‘zerks its for the kill. BS
6 – Zoo plays some dudes, BS ‘zerks a Ledgewalker for a bunch. BS
7 – All BS has for pressure is a Ledgewalker, draws five land and 2x BotH, making it hard to combo. Zoo wins in the meantime. Zoo
8 – Zoo gets manascrewed while a giant Troll comes over. BS
9 – Ranger gets a Troll out on two lands, Troll picks up Rancor/’zerk for the kill. BS
10 – Zoo kills everything BS plays and goes over with Nacatl until the game ends. Zoo
11 – BS gets a Troll off of one land and 2x ESG, has to sit back and take beats for a few turns since it can’t find a second mana to regen it. Zoo can’t kill before it gets ‘zerked and kills. BS
12 – Zoo’s start lacks removal and is put on defense by an Elite and some Skulks. Zoo eventually clears them off, but BS takes the opportunity to set up double Troll, which gets there. BS
13 – Not sure if this game got played correctly, Zoo dumped out a bunch of Goyfs and it was kinda tricky for exactly how many of them should be attacking and how many should be back on defense. Zoo probably misplayed it and got greedy because a ‘zerked Troll got through for lethal. BS
14 – BS mulls to six, keeps a hand of Troll, 2 Berserk, 1 land, and other pump on the draw. finds a second land, then more pump, so no other creatures and no way to cast the Troll. Zoo
15 – Zoo mulls to six. Everything BS plays dies to either Lavamancer or burn while a Pridemage and an Ape go the distance. Zoo
16 – Long game, Goyf and Troll stare at each other for a while, eventually Berserk takes the game. BS
17 – Zoo mulls to six. It has a bunch of paths and some bad creatures (small Goyf, Pridemage, Ape) which get flattened by a Troll. If you’re wondering why Goyf was small, no fetches cracked, Path kept exiling the creatures, and there weren’t any sorceries. BS
18 – BS gets stuck on one land, all its one-drops get killed and it can’t find a second to go Ranger into Troll. Zoo
19 – Zoo doesn’t beat t1 ESG into Ledgewalker on the play followed by t2 double Rancor. BS
20 - Troll tries to stall a pair of Goyfs while triple Scryb Rangers go over in the air, Zoo adds some Nacatls to the board and overwhelm BS. Zoo.


Final score: BS: 10, Zoo: 10

A few things to note:
-Troll was absolutely amazing, every time he resolved he either won the game or bought at least a couple of turns to try to draw into the combo
-Games still depended very much on whether or not BS drew shrouded guys, but Troll was much better than Boggle. The Boggles just sat there not getting into combat while praying to draw the combo, while the Troll actually threatened to kill whatever fought with it.
-BotH was fine, the only time I didn’t have stuff to pitch was that one game where I drew like five land in a row.
-4 Scryb Ranger and 3 ESG might have been wrong. I felt like I was drawing too many Rangers and not enough ESG. Also, ESG does cool stuff like t1 Ledgewalker and t2 Troll, while Ranger only gives you an extra land drop you wouldn’t normally have.
-I know 9/11 vs 10/10 records aren’t exactly very different, but the Troll version felt like it had a lot more control over its games. If things weren’t going well, Troll bought time for BS to have a chance, while Boggle sat on the sidelines and watched the deck die. It’s certainly not conclusive by any means, but I figure somebody might find it interesting.

Going to go try Merfolk and Goblins now, will post those a bit later.

[badjuju]

Wow thanks a lot for those test results, I really appreciate that effort!

[AcidFiend]

Kavu Predator really could've used Vines of Vastwood in your testing bro.

[Otter]

Kavu Predator really could've used Vines of Vastwood in your testing bro.

I'm not a big fan of Vines in that version. Between only one Ranger, no ESG, and 15 lands, it's hard to combo out with it. I've got two in the board for if you board up to 17 lands, it's a bit safer then.

It's worth mentioning though, that the Troll version playing 3 Vines rarely actually used them defensively against Zoo. In the games where they're just slaughtering all of your guys, it often involves Lavamancer and Vines buying a turn against him is awful. The rest of the time it's pretty common that you'll be tapped out from trying to actually do something relevant and then your guys die. It's all well and good to want to save your plays for when you can protect them with Vines, but when they open with Nacatl and start hacking away at your lifetotal, you gotta get going and do something. All of our guys are worse than theirs, so it's an ugly situation, if you put your guys in play right away they get removed and if you wait for Vines then you tend to die a lot anyways.

However, the whole point here is to get some actual testing done (something this thread has kinda lacked) and these games go fast, so I'll give you another twenty against Zoo with a pair of Vines in the deck. Give me a few hours here :tongue:

[AcidFiend]

Oh I appreciate the testing :)

[swordoffireandice]

Same here, Vines should keep your critters save fron StP and your pump up spells should save them from burn.

Awaiting the results.....:smile:

[Otter]

Here's the rest for today, I'll finish the other half of Fish tomorrow and move on to stuff like Dredge, CT Bant, Landstill, Stax, Lands, Aggroloam. Probably not even going to bother with ANT, since you either draw a turn 2-3 combo or you don't. Maybe I'll try it with some Mindbreak traps in the side since somebody wanted that a few pages back, but I bet it's still awful.

Also, I know all of this is preboard, but I think some extensive testing of the preboard is needed before we can really say for certain what deserves to be in the board.

Regular Berserk Stompy with 2x Vines vs Zoo
1 – BS mulls to six. Zoo play a pair of Nacatls and sends them in until BS dies, using Bolt/Chain/Path removal as necessary. Zoo
2 – BS has a ton of extra pump in hand, baits a removal spell with Might, then uses Vines to force Zoo into a situation where they have to use a second removal or be low enough to die to the pump next turn. They use their second path, don’t draw into more removal and die the next turn. Score one for Vines. BS
3 – A large pile of Boggles and Ledgewalkers without pump doesn’t get very far against Goyf and Pridemage. An Inviorated Predator gives BS a chance for a turn, but eats a path and that’s game. Zoo
4 – BS’s first few plays die, Boggle shows up and combos out for lethal. BS
5 – BS mulls to five and can’t recover from the first two guys dying. Zoo
6 – Nacatl and removal go the distance, a Rancored Ledgewalker is a few points short of going lethal. Zoo
7 – Zoo does some stuff, Boggle goes crazy with Berserk. BS
8 – BS mulls to six, plays a bunch of guys who die and loses. Vines didn’t help, half because they had Lavamancer and half because it was the only pump spell BS had and using it to save a 2/2 against an army of Nacatl, Goyf, etc would cut off the combo finish as a possible out. Zoo
9 – Zoo mulls to six. Skulk and Elite get stopped by the Great Wall of Tarmogoyf. A second Goyf shows up, some removal fries BS’s creatures and the Great Wall of Tarmogoyf starts serving for eight a turn. Zoo
10 – Zoo runs out of removal, tries to race with a Goyf, a ‘zerked Boggle is faster. BS
11 – BS combos on turn four with Ledgewalker. BS
12 – BS forced on the defensive from a Nacatl and removal, a Rancored Boggle waits for some pump, but there’s not enough to be lethal. Zoo
13 – Double Predator get Invigorated when double Nacatl attack into them. Zoo tries to salvage it with a Lightning Helix and gets utterly blown out by Vines. BS
14 – BS has an amusing triple ‘zerk + Invigorate hand, but dies before it can find a third land. Zoo
15 – Same thing, only with two Berserks and no second land. Zoo
16 – Zoo mulls to six and fails to race double Rancor for double Boggle. BS
17 – Zoo has a bunch of Lavamancers, Ledgewalker treats them with a mild disregard as she goes over for eighteen. BS
18 – Zoo mulls to six. It was an interesting game because BS is stuck at one land, so Zoo doesn’t want to use its pair of Paths. By the time the second land shows up for BS it’s a little late and there’s not quite enough time to get a Ledgewalker into the air to do the last three points of damage. Zoo
19 – BS can’t find enough land to combo and dies. Zoo
20 – BS mulls below five looking for land, didn’t bother to play it. Zoo


Final Score: BS: 8, Zoo: 12

A full third of BS’s losses were to not being able to find enough land. I know someone is going to tell me to mulligan differently, but usually it’s something like I need to draw a second land in first four turns to have an auto-win on the combo. I’m willing to take those odds and I think it’s a part of playing the deck – you have to play to your strengths and having a shrouded 20 power dude is our biggest strength. Anyways, mana issues aside, Vines did steal a pair of games and was a lot better than Briar Shield. I'm not sure what the implications for switching it would be on some of the less removal-heavy matchups, but I’ll certainly give Vines that it was good against Zoo.

Classic Berserk Stompy vs Goblins
1 – Goblins gets in for about ten damage, then dies to about twenty power’s worth of Ledgewalker. BS
2 – Ground gets stuck while Ledgewalker goes over with Rancor for a few turns, then finishes wiht ‘Zerk. BS
3 – BS draws into a terrible 3x Predator with no Invigorate, but a Rancored Skulk just barely manages to win a race. BS
4 – BS mulls to six. A pair of 1/1 Elite jump in the way an Instigator, Kavu Predator hits too late and the Instigator dumps a million goblins into play. Gob
5 – BS doesn’t have enough pump to combo and throws Boggles and Ledgewalkers in front of a 2/2 Instigator until Goblins eventually alpha strikes for the game. Gob
6 – BS again draws a bunch of Boggles and Ledgewalkers, which get thrown under Piledrivers for a while and eventually BS runs out of chumps and dies. Gob
7 – Goblins can’t block Rancored Skulks and die. BS
8 - Goblins almost gets there with a Chieftain and a bunch of guys, but BS combos out on the last possible turn. Elite was amazing here, holding off a Chieftain and the Lackey he was boosting. BS
9 – BS can’t find the combo and trades guys for a long time. Goblins has just a few more guys and BS slowly bleeds life until it dies. Gob
10 – BS applying good pressure with a Rancored Ledgewalker and a Skulk, then a timely Incinerator allows Goblins to sneak through a Lackey and an Instigator. Way too many goblins hit play and it’s over. Gob
11 – Turn three for goblins involves attacking with Lackey, Instigator, Chieftain, and Piledriver, dumping Matron, Piledriver, and Ringleader into play. Not quite enough pump for Predator to combo and swing for lethal. Gob
12 – Matrons for Incinerators clears the way for Lackey effects, Siege-Gang ends the game. Gob
13 – Goblins plays some irrelevant guys while BS hits the early combo. BS
14 – BS combos on turn two. BS
15 – BS combos on turn three. BS
16 – BS can’t get off of one land while Goblins goes a bit too nuts with Vial. Gob
17 – Goblins doesn’t have a fast start and a gigantic Ledgewalker goes all the way. BS
18 – BS combos on turn three. BS
19 – Goblins mulls to six, then a bunch of stupidity ensues where Goblins is stuck at Lackey, Port, and Mountain and BS is stuck at Forest and Nettle. BS is locked out by the port, Goblins is locked out by using the port, and neither Lackey nor Nettle wants to attack. Eventually both decks find some more land, Goblins plays some irrelevant guys while BS combos. BS
20 – Goblins tries to clear the way for Lackey with some Incinerators, but Boggles mess up that plan. Eventually some Ledgewalkers get into the air and combo. BS


Final score: BS: 12, Goblins: 8

A few things to note:
-Boggle and Nettle Sentinel are amazing here. Nettle can hit past Lackey and then untap to block him, while Boggle can’t be cleared out of Lackey’s way by a Stingscourger or Gempalm.
-Kavu Predator wasn’t good or bad. He had his “lolwut huge combo” moments and ran over some critters for the kill, but he was never completely broken or completely dead.
-Goblins are great at gumming up the ground, Skulks and Ledgewalkers are great because they get their full Berserked damage through to the face.
-They’re extremely vulnerable to the combo, the only ways they can disrupt it are with a Gempalm or Vialed Stingscourger.
-This matchup is definitely good.

Troll Berserk Stompy vs Goblins
1 – BS mulls to six and tries keeping a 0-land, ESG hand on the draw. The hand had a Berserk and a bunch of pump with some critters, so I felt it was a fair gamble. Didn’t pay off, never found a land, though I think I’d still make the same choice rather than go to five cards. I don’t think the chance of finding a five card hand with guys, pump (including Berserk), and mana are better than finding a land with those six. Gob
2 – Both decks play a bunch of guys, they run into each other on the ground while a Pit Skulk and a Ledgewalker do twenty. BS
3 – BS mulls to six and has 3x Elite while Goblins drops a bunch of mountains and guys. Gob
4 – BS mulls to six. BS has way too many Rangers and Ledgewalkers, the 1/1 for 2 squad dies to a bunch of Chieftain boosted critters. There was a cool play with a flashed Ranger + BotH wrecking a bunch of Lackeys, but it didn’t matter enough. Gob
5 – BS gets Goblins pretty low and they struggle to keep chumping Trolls and die to fliers. BS
6 – BS has a slow hand of Ledgewalkers and a Troll, draws a ton of land and dies to a horde of Goblins. Gob
7 – BS has to play defensively against a Chieftain sending across Instigators and Lackeys, eventually runs out of gas when they cast a Siege-Gang. Gob
8 – Goblins mulls to six. Doesn’t have much action and gets run over by a Rancored Nettle and some other stuff. BS
9 – Guys trade back and forth until a ‘zerked Skulk ends the game. BS
10 – Goblins can’t get past three mana to really get going, while BS can’t find any pump to go with Berserk. A Ledgewalker squeaks out a point in the air for a few turns to get Goblins in range of alpha strike + berserk on 2/3 Skyshroud Elite being lethal. Yeah, kinda sad game. BS
11 – Lackey and Instigator can’t get through the wall of vigilant critters involving Nettle and Ranger. A bunch of trades later both decks are mostly out of steam and then BS finds ‘zerk and a Ranger gets there. BS
12 – Goblins mulls to six. They open with lackey on the play and BS doesn’t have a one-drop. A bunch of SGC and stuff later it’s over, BS had a bunch of pump to combo, but no Berserk. Gob
13 – Very close game, Chieftain-boosted Lackeys and Instigators trade with some guys while a Rancored Nettle takes chunks out of Goblin’s life. BS has just enough pump to kill with a Ledgewalker. BS
14 – Goblins mulls to five. BS leads with a Skulk then double Rancors it. Goblins tries to get in with Instigator + Chieftain, but BS chumps the Instigator every turn and the Skulk does his thing in the meantime. BS
15 – Goblins mulls to six. BS can’t keep up the trades when Goblins has double Vial and gets to cheat on mana. BS can’t find Berserk and it’s over. Gob
16 – Goblins forces through a Lackey with Gempalm, dumps a SGC in with a Chieftain ready to go next turn. BS untaps and Ledgewalker gets in for exactly lethal with Berserk. BS
17 – Goblins doesn’t have the fastest of starts and a Rancored Nettle gets in enough damage that BotH and Vines push through the rest. BS
18 – Lackey gets in because of Gempalm again, but Goblins doesn’t really have the gas to make it matter. Nettle gets in for around thirty. BS
19 – Turn one Lackey, turn two Instigator, turn three Stingscourger to force them through. BS has the combo, but can’t get it through the pair of Siege-Gangs sitting in the way. Gob
20 – BS spends a bunch of time chumping an Instigator with 1-toughness stuff like Ranger, Ledgewalker, and non-active Elite. Eventually it runs out of blockers and Instigator does his thing. Gob


Final Score: BS: 11, Gob: 9

Things of note:
-Troll is against Goblins what Predator is against Zoo. He’s too slow to do anything too slow and you can’t stall against Goblins, if you stall they overrun you with their massive card advantage suite. Zoo cares a lot about losing a Nacatl to a regenerating Troll, they have limited creatures. Goblins doesn’t care what they throw into him, there are always more goblins.
-The loss of Boggle makes it much easier for them to connect Lackey, which can be a problem.
-Even though this version is definitely worse against Goblins, it is still a good matchup. I had to mulligan more with this deck than the other one and this plays more lands, so that kinda sucked, and I still came up with 11 wins for BS. That’s not bad at all.

Regular Berserk Stompy vs Merfolk
1 – BS mulls to six. Fish puts down Vial, makes BS break Standstill twice. Fish crowd up the ground with a bunch of lords, BS chumps for a while and gets over with Rancored Ledgewalker, who barely wins race. BS
2 – BS can’t get enough early pressure, multiple lords take over the board and BS doesn’t have enough pump to combo. Fish
3 – BS trades for a while, comes down to a close race. If fish topdeck a merfolk so Reejery can tap a blocker, they win, otherwise Ledgewalker kills the next turn – they draw a lord. Fish
4 – Fish mulls to six, keeps a pretty mediocre hand. BS drops some dudes and they go all the way. BS
5 – Fish mulls to six. BS drops some early guys, Fish trades a few times and then draws a bunch of land and dies. BS
6 – Fish mulls to five (okay serious, what’s up with this?). BS sticks a Predator and Invigorate is game. BS
7 – Fish has to double Daze to get rid of Rancor, which sets it back a lot. A Skulk gets pumped a few turns in a row for the kill. BS
8 – Fish Forces a Rancor, but BS has a second one. Merfolk get thrown under the Rancor truck for a few turns and then the game is over. BS
9 – BS mulls to six. Fish covers the table in lords before BS can find enough pump to combo. Fish
10 – Fish mulls into oblivion and dies. BS
11 – Fish Forces some guys to try to get a window to land Standstill, but BS just keeps playing more guys. BS
12 – Fish almost gets twenty damage in with a pile of lords before a Rancor/2x Briar Shield Sprites goes lethal. Almost. BS
13 – Fish mulls to six. It doesn’t have a Force when BS starts piling Rancors onto a Boggle, which quickly ends the game. BS
14 – BS gets a fast start on the play, Fish doesn’t have guys until turn two, at which point the board is cluttered with little angry green guys. BS
15 – BS’s first Ledgewalker bit Daze, but the second one stuck and picked up Rancor. To be fair, Merfolk managed to keep up to speed with a Vial and even hit for 15. However, the Ledgewalker hit for 38 while playing around Daze. BS
16 – Fish Forces enough stuff to get Standstill off, then goes a bit crazy with Vial and dumps lords everywhere. BS comes up one damage short of comboing. Fish
17 – BS mulls to six, Fish mulls to five. BS gets its creatures countered and then can’t find anything while fish plays out a couple of guys that go the distance. Fish
18 – Both decks draw trash for a while, then fish put down a few lords and BS plays about ten little 1/1s and 2/2s. BS outraces by a little bit, gogo chumping power. BS
19 – Fish almost race, but BS throws enough guys in the way and trade with pump that eventually Fish stops drawing creatures and BS still has a couple left. BS
20 – Fish mull to five. BS plays some dudes and a Rancor, Fish has to make bad trades and dies. BS


Final Score: BS: 15, Fish: 5

Comments:
-It’s getting late and I think one or two of these got misplayed and Fish should’ve won. Also, they spent quite a few games mulling to death. So this matchup probably isn’t quite as bad for them as this made it look.
-BS has a bunch of huge advantages in this matchup. One, Force is a terrible card when none of your opponent’s cards are more important than the others. BS is a giant pile of mediocre creatures and redundant pump, not much worth the 2-for-1 of Forcing it. Two, Rancor is stupidly good here, they can’t win creature wars if you resolve it (so it’s their prime Force target if they know what they’re doing). Three, Standstill is very hard for them to use because BS usually dumps 4-5 power worth of guys onto the table by turn two and they have a Cursecatcher at best. Four, if they’re playing Stifle in the open slots (the most popular choice, I think), it’s almost completely dead against BS. It hits Kavu triggers, Briar Shield sacrifice, and Rancor recursion, that’s it.
-Shroud is nearly useless here preboard unless they’re playing a version with Echoing Truth, flying is much more important. Shroud sometimes gets better postboard because of Threads/Mind Harness.

And that's 120 games for today. Good night, folks -.-

[Gui]

Have to say, nice testing effort there! =)
Keep up the good work!

My consideration, although very fast since I don't have much time, is that the results are similar for the diferent versions, with few momets of glory for either kavu or troll... maybe run one as sideboard to the other? I mean, against Zoo, you can side kavu out, or the opposite for the oter matchups...

You said, somewhere in those big texts, that kavu is never "omgwtf nuts" but is also never dead... I like this kind of card for my aggro decks... Kavu is a "should-counter-or-kill" even wen we don't have the mini-combo, just because it can turn big from nothing...

About troll, troll shall be great against anything like zoo, or anything that run goyfs, sice it can block untill you can kill them, and it won't be easily killed.

Nothing more, Sweet testings ^^

[Otter]

My consideration, although very fast since I don't have much time, is that the results are similar for the diferent versions, with few momets of glory for either kavu or troll... maybe run one as sideboard to the other? I mean, against Zoo, you can side kavu out, or the opposite for the oter matchups...

I think it's only possible if you want to side out Kavu for Troll, not the other way around. Invigorate is pretty bad without the chance to use it with Kavu, so I would not run Invigorate with MD Troll. Anyways, at the end of this post I put an idea for an approximate list with boarded Trolls.


You said, somewhere in those big texts, that kavu is never "omgwtf nuts" but is also never dead... I like this kind of card for my aggro decks... Kavu is a "should-counter-or-kill" even wen we don't have the mini-combo, just because it can turn big from nothing...

Yeah, but I'm also starting to think similar things about Elvish Spirit Guide. I'm equally happy to pitch it for mana or to just hardcast it lategame, it's about as much of a threat as anything else in the deck and works pretty well.


About troll, troll shall be great against anything like zoo, or anything that run goyfs, sice it can block untill you can kill them, and it won't be easily killed.

Yeah, once he gets down, not much gets past him. Almost none of the playable removal can touch him, it's basically just stuff like Wrath, Pithing Needle, and possibly something weird like Fleshbag from Survival.

Troll Berserk Stompy vs Fish
1 – Fish mulls to six. Scryb Ranger gets Forced, a Troll spends a few turns punching through lords while some Elites and ESGs chump. Troll gets double ‘zerked and wins the race. BS
2 – Fish Daze a Ranger and try to race a Rancored Ledgewalker, BS plays too many chumpers for it to work. BS
3 – Fish keeps a mana-light hand and is staring down a Troll before it can get going. BS
4 – Fish mulls to six. A Rancored Nettle takes gigantic chunks out of its lifetotal. Eventually some lords get the Nettle off the table, but Rancor moves to a Ledgewalker. BS
5 – BS has some early Ledgwalkers, but not enough pump to back them up. Lords overwhelm the board. Fish
6 – Troll can’t defend forever against two large Wakethrashers, BS doesn’t find Berserk. BS
7 – BS mulls to six. Fish can’t keep Rancor off a Skulk, almost races it, but Berserk finishes the game. BS
8 – Game draws out, Merfolk can’t break through on the ground because using Sovereign would tap out too many of their guys and leave them open to taking lethal back. Eventually BS gets there in the air with Ledgewalker. BS
9 – BS runs out of creatures, while Merfolk gets to land a standstill then dump down lords everywhere. Fish
10 – Scryb Ranger gets in the way of Fish’s guys, they have to use Sovereign to race, Ranger picks up pump and wins. BS
11 – When Fish counters a Rancor, BS gets a Ranger online and then finds another Rancor, the rest is a formality. BS
12 – Double Reejerey dumps fish into play at an absurd rate, but BS just combos. BS
13 – BS mulls to six. Again a pair of Reejerey dump a bunch of giant fish into play, BS can’t combo fast enough. Fish
14 – Fish mulls to six. Close game, comes down to BS throwing down Berserk so that Fish has to sacrifice Cursecatcher and can’t swing back for lethal. BS goes lethal the next turn. BS
15 – BS keeps trading guys with Silvergills while Fish starts piling lords down. BS can’t find enough pump to combo and dies. Fish
16 – Fish mulls to six. They draw a bunch of Stifles and Standstills and get wrecked by a large Ranger. BS
17 – BS can’t get off of one land and attempts to combo using ESGs get Cursecatchered, BS is one damage short of the kill when it dies. Fish
18 – Fish forces a second Rancor, then dies to a pair of Berserks. BS
19 – BS trades pump for lords and the board comes down to a Reejerey and Cursecatcher vs an Elite and Skulk. Fish draws some Wastelands and BS draws a Troll, which goes all the way. BS
20 – Vials pumping out Lords get BS to 1, but it swings back for lethal with pump on Ledgewalker and Troll. BS


Final Score: BS: 15, Fish: 5

Thoughts:
-This matchup is so good that Troll really didn’t matter one way or the other most of the time. He occasionally held off some lords or punched a hole in their defense, but the game was usually long over by that point.
-The Scryb Rangers were insane, not only do they wall fish all day long, but they’re another four fliers and flying is so good here.

Classic Berserk Stompy vs Geddon Stax
1 – Stax mulls to six. It proceeds to lose to itself from not finding a white source before BS combos on turn three. BS
2 – BS mulls to six. It drops two guys, then gets torn to shreds by Chalice at 1, Ghostly Prison, and a Baneslayer. Stax
3 – Both mull to six. Stax gets Prison out, while BS pays to attack with a Rancored Ledgewalker and draws a bunch of land. Stax finally finds a Smokestack, but BS combos. BS
4 – BS mulls to six. Stax Chalices for one, follows up with Prison, Crucible, and Geddon. Stax
5 – Chalice at one on the play leaves BS to try racing with a Predator and Ledgewalker. Stax plays more lock pieces and it’s over. Stax
6 – BS gets down two Nettles and a Rancor before Chalice hits and Stax can’t stop the pressure. BS
7 – BS mulls to six. Chalice leaves BS with only a pair of Predators to try to win, but Magus and Geddon remove them. Stax
8 – Stax mulls to five, still has turn one Chalice on the play. BS gets the beats on with a Predator and Ledgewalker, but the Predator gets O-Ringed. Ledgewalker pings away for a bunch of turns, then Stax finds a Baneslayer. Stax
9 – Stax Chalices at one, but can’t find a third land to get Prison active before getting run over by a large Predator. BS
10 – Prison slows BS to a crawl, Geddon with Magus follow-up is game. Stax
11 – Stax mulls to six, opens with Chalice. BS can’t cast anything and scoops when Chalice for two hits. Stax
12 – BS opens with Nettle, Stax plays Trinisphere to keep it tapped. Crucible and Geddon follow. Stax
13 – Stax Chalices, BS lands a Predator and double Invigorates it. Stax removes it with Smokestack and Geddon and follows up with Crucible for the lock. Stax
14 – BS slips in a lot of pressure before Chalice, but Magus slows it down for a turn and then Baneslayer hits. Stax
15 – BS leads with Nettle, Chalice blanks the rest of its hand. An O-Ring on the Nettle later and it’s over. Stax


Final Score: BS: 4, Stax: 11

Chalice makes this matchup so horribly unwinnable that I’m stopping at 15 matches and doing some boarding, since boarding does considerably change BS’s options. Basically the whole board comes in, more Forests to survive Geddon/Prison, Shusher against Chalice, and Grip/Seeds against everything they play.


+4 Shusher
+4 Seeds
+2 Grip
+2 Forest
+1 Scryb Ranger
---
-1 Might of Old Krosa
-2 Scryb Sprites
-2 Briar Shield
-4 Boggle
-4 Ledgewalker

(Stax swaps 2 Wastes and 2 Smokestacks for their fourth Trini, a Tabernacle, and 2 Karmic Justice)

Boarded Classic BS vs Stax
1 – BS mulls to six. Stax leads with Karmic Justice, O-Rings BS’s first guy, and then locks them out with Smokestack. Stax
2 – BS mulls to six and gets a Predator down. Stax casts Trini and BS can’t find a third land before Baneslayer shows up and wrecks face. Stax
3 – Stax lands turn one Trini, BS finds three lands and blows up both Diamonds and the Trini, but not before Baneslayer hits. She goes the distance before BS can combo. Stax
4 – Stax has a slow start, Kavu Predator is one point short of comboing, so it just hits and waits a turn. Stax rips O-Ring and locks BS out before another critter shows up. Stax
5 – Kor Haven stops Predator from comboing out, but BS eventually just swarms it with guys. BS
6 – Stax stalls with O-Ring and Magus, then lands Baneslayer. Stax
7 – BS mulls to five looking for a critter. Stax plays a pair of Ghostly Prison and stalls forever till it sets up the lock. Stax
8 – Stax opens with Chalice, then Geddons before BS can get three mana for Seeds. Smokestack for the lock follows. Stax
9 – BS combos Stax down to two (it coudln’t wait, Kor Haven was about to come online) and can’t ever get a chance to finish the job after Magus + Geddon reset BS’s board. Stax
10 – A long game where Stax almost loses due to a lack of a second white source, but chumping with Factories buys it enough time to lock BS out. Stax
11 – BS mulls to six. Stax opens with a turn one Chalice with a Diamond, but can’t find another land to keep going. Seeds clears them both off and Predator goes to town before Stax finds more mana. BS
12 – Both mull to six. Stax has a turn two Chalice, but not before BS has three guys on the field. Stax can’t find a third land to Prison, BS gets a Shusher and forces pump through for the kill. BS
13 – Stax can’t find enough mana again and gets overrun by guys. BS
14 – Stax Chalices, but a Shusher forces some guys through it. Kor Haven tries to stop the bleeding, but BS swarms the field. BS
15 – Stax mulls to six. They drop double Prison, BS manages to Grip one, but loses a large Predator to Karmic Justice in the process. A Kor Haven and Factory stall behind the remaining prison until Baneslayer shows up. Stax


Final Score: BS: 5, Stax: 10

Comments:
-For boarding in almost everything, this did practically nothing. The deck no longer scoops to Chalice at one once boarded, but Stax has so many different angles of attack that it barely matters. The artifacts are a problem, the Prisons are a problem, and even the Baneslayers and Tabernacles are a problem. It’s so hard to answer everything (or just have the right answer in hand) that BS still pretty much only wins if Stax loses to its own draws.
-I really wasn’t happy with Seeds, half the time I was staring at Prison or O-Ring holding Seeds and the other half I was paying three mana to kill a Chalice at one. I wanted something a lot more versatile.
-How about Gleeful Sabotage? It can remove multiple targets, we certainly have the guys to conspire it, and as an added bonus the copy dodges Chalice at two and Counterbalance.
-This matchup is awful enough that I’m not going to bother testing the other version until I give Gleeful Sabotage a run in this one.

I’m going to go test both decks against Tempo Thresh now, but here’s my current idea for an update to the regular version:

15/2 Land Berserk Stompy
15 Forest

4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
2 Scryb Sprites
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhanna Ledgewalker
4 Slippery Boggle

4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
2 Vines of Vastwood

SB:
2 Forest
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Krosan Grip
3 Troll Ascetic

[swordoffireandice]

What about Noble Hierarch? This creature makes a Silhana twice as big when attacking and putting a Troll Ascetic or playing a krosan Grip a lot more easy....I have not tested this yet, but I will do this tomorrow.

[Otter]

What about Noble Hierarch? This creature makes a Silhana twice as big when attacking and putting a Troll Ascetic or playing a krosan Grip a lot more easy....I have not tested this yet, but I will do this tomorrow.

Definitely interesting, I'll try it too. Probably in the ESG slots in my Troll build, seems like the most sensible place. I really like that they could pump a flier or Skulk going over, then still be untapped to chump something.

Now for something weird. . . I haven’t had time to do the Troll test yet, but here’s the classic against Tempo Thresh:

Classic Berserk Stompy vs Tempo Thresh
1 – Both mull to six. A pair of Geese race a Rancored Ledgewalker, Thresh bounces the Rancor on the last turn to live at one and swing back for lethal. Thresh
2 – A Rancored Boggle gets in for a few turns, Goyfs show up on defense at 4/5. One of them takes a swing, BS takes a chance that Thresh doesn’t have Force and combos. It pays off, Thresh Brainstorms for a Force and can’t find it, which is game. BS
3 – BS mulls to six. Thresh can’t find enough lands, taps down to finally put a Goyf in the way, which gives BS an opporunity to combo. It isn’t lethal but flattens the Goyf and leaves Thesh at five. BS finishes the job with Ledgewalker. BS
4 – Thresh’s draw would have been insane if BS cared about Wasteland and Stifle. Thresh dies to a horde of guys. BS
5 – BS mulls to six. Thresh counters BS’s first couple of guys, then races a Sprite and Skulk with Goose and Goyf. Thresh
6 – Thresh lands a Goyf and Goose, has to trade them with pump and dies to a bunch of guys. BS
7 – BS mulls to five. BS gets a Rancor down on some guys and starts taking chunks out of Thresh’s lifetotal while they can’t find a red for removal. A Goyf dies to a Berserk and BS just keeps sending guys over while Thresh holds dead Wastes, Stifles, and Dazes. BS
8 – Both mull to six. BS has a Nettle on the play followed by Rancor with a mana open, while Thresh looks at a useless Daze, Spell Snare, and a pair of Wastelands. A 2/3 Goyf tries to block dies to pump. BS
9 – Thresh mulls to five. It can’t find burn and is forced to try to trade guys, BS trades pump instead and keeps attacking until it’s over. BS
10 – One of the single stupidest games of magic I’ve ever seen. The ground turns into a horrific stalemate between 2 Geese, a Goyf, and about eight random guys from BS. After about fifteen turns BS finds a Ledgewalker and wins. BS
11 – Thresh mulls to six, keeps a pair of Forces and Stifles with land. Forces the first two guys BS plays, then tries to throw a Goyf in the way and dies to ‘zerk. BS
12 – Spoiler: Stifle and Waste suck against this deck. BS
13 – BS’s plays all get countered, double Kavu runs into double Snare, Goyf takes it home with no opposition. Thresh
14 – Thresh dies a slow and agonizing death to a pile of Boggles that it can’t remove. Some Geese get in the way and trade with pump. BS
15 – Thresh kills most of BS’s guys, but still takes a lot of damage and ends up not being able to play offense with a 5/6 Goyf due to a couple of Boggles waiting to hit back. A Ledgewalker does the last few points. BS
16 – Thresh puts some Goyfs on defense and keeps losing them to Berserk and Vines, eventually it runs out of creatures and dies. BS
17 – Thresh mulls to six. It can’t get manage to get green, dies to a bunch of Rancored stuff before it’s able to play blockers. BS
18 – Thresh mulls to six. I’m getting bored of writing that Thresh killed some stuff, but there was too much of it and Thresh eventually died, but that’s pretty much what keeps happening. BS
19 – BS mulls to six. Thresh can’t find green for a few turns and by the time it can put Goyf down, there are a ton of guys on the table. BS
20 – Thresh mulls to six, the game drags out with BS having room to play around Daze since Thresh isn’t applying any pressure. Eventually Thresh runs out of steam and dies to a Rancored Ranger. BS


Final Score: BS: 17, Thresh: 3

Comments:
-lolwut? Perhaps Thresh misplayed a few of these games, but the matchup appears to be utterly terrible for them preboard. This seems to be largely due to how heavily tuned Tempo Thresh's main is to be good against legacy as an overall format. Their Stifles and Wastes are complete garbage here and Snare only hits the Ledgewalkers and Predators, neither of which are important in the matchup. That gives them 12 cards that are largely dead draws, so even if they manage to stall us for a while, BS can win the topdeck war.
-Also, normally they can get good mileage out of Geese against aggro since things like Zoo can't trade an Ape, Pridemage, or Lavamancer and a burn spell for one (or Goblins can't Incinerator them, whatever). BS's pump doesn't give a damn about the shroud and flattens Geese like they're nothing.
-Berserk isn’t used for comboing in this matchup, since they only have eight creatures. Just use it like the rest of your pump: for killing Goyf and Goose in a fight, you already play more random dorks than they can get rid of, so if you can just make your guys trade with theirs, you win.
-This matchup probably gets a thousand times worse after boarding, when they can bring in EE or Pyroclasm. It obviously needs testing, but I'm heading out for a while and felt like posting this now.

[AcidFiend]

How do we fare against the Top 16 of the latest SCG Open? Here's my initial take. I don't have the required test results to use exact %'s (and suspect many people don't when they state them) and think they are overrated in their usefulness. I'm just going to use categories: good, 50/50, bad. Maybe as Otter does more testing we can get more insight here.

Good:
Threshold
Merfolk
Bant (?)

50/50:
Naya Zoo
U/W Tempo
Progenitus Countertop
Goblins

Bad:
Enchantress
Belcher
Aggro Loam
Eva Green
Dredge

Please tell me if you feel otherwise about a matchup and I'll edit this post. As it stands I can't justify playing this deck as much as I love Berserk.

[Otter]

Agreed that Thresh and Merfolk are good, I have no idea about that Bant thingy that Kibler played, will have to test it. There are so many versions of Bant too, CT Bant, Surival Bant, NO Bant, etc -.- *sigh*

I think that with a tighter Troll list and some good postboard mulligans I could bring the Zoo matchup into the positive range, but until then it does seem to be about 50/50.

I suspect that you're right about U/W Tempo being about even, they're basically Merfolk but with fewer dead cards like Standstill, instead packing removal like StP and Jitte. I don't really care enough to test it right now, though, until we see evidence that more people are picking it up. There's just too much other stuff that needs to be tested against.

Some testing against Goblins about two months ago showed the matchup to be like 2/3 wins, while yesterday was more like "slightly better than even." Not sure if anything relevant changed or if it was just the draws, I'd like to play it more and see which is the real state of the matchup.

Enchantress can be difficult because of Grass, but they're also a pretty slow deck for the first few turns. We have a decent chance to combo them before it's hopeless. Either way, not a matchup I'd like to see.

Not sure about Aggro Loam. It obviously sucks if they land Chalice, but I feel like the rest of their stuff is a bit slow and clunky, so we probably win if they don't. It's also dangerous for them to try Devastating Dreams, as a pump in response would be a total blowout.

Never played Eva, I'll get around to it soon hopefully.

[swordoffireandice]

This is my deck. I will test the Noble Hierarch this evening. I cut 1x Boggle, 1x Elite, 1x Nettle and 1x Forest for the Hierarchs.

16 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Slippery Boggle
3 Skyshroud Elite
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhanna Ledgewalker
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Giant Growth
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Vines of Vastwood
1 Bounty of the Hunt

SB:
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Hidden Gibbons
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus

I have replaced the Might of old Krosa with the good old Gianth Growth because I want to use them against Zoo as a pump spell to kill attacking creatures. The 2 pump with Krosa is just not enough. When pumping a Bogle it becomes 3/3 with Krosa, to block a Nacatl and live through 3/3 is not enough. The 3 pump from Giant Growth compensate the Bolt and chain lightning. The Vines do the same for the StP.

Most of the time wen using Berserk, the damage was more then enough for the kill, so the replacement of the Growth for the Might of old Krosa should not be so bad. Maybe 2 of both is also ok.

The sideboard is with the Goyfs and the Gibbons is to give the deck more body. They can be used very often because of the many aggro decks around. The Gibbons have a casting cost of 1, so they can easy replace the sentinels/Boggle/Elite.

I will post tomorrow how the testing went.

[Otter]

Here's my attempt to work in Hierarch that I'll be testing today:

16 Forests

2 Noble Hierarch
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
1 Slippery Boggle
4 Silhanna Ledgewalker
2 Scryb Ranger
4 Troll Ascetic

4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Bounty of the Hunt
3 Vines of Vastwood
2 Might of Old Krosa


SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Gleeful Sabotage
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Overall changes are +1 Boggle, +2 Hierarch for -2 Scryb Ranger and -1 ESG. I wanted a ninth shrouded guy, so that’s the Boggle, though he’s also there for being another one-drop that can kill Lackey. It’s also three additional guys that can hit turn one to enable a turn two Skulk, who I really hate to drop without bloodthirst and the Troll list sometimes had to do that. There were also too many 2cc 1/1 fliers, so switching two Rangers for Hierarchs cuts the fliers down from 8 to 6, while increasing the power of those that still show up. As for why I’m not cutting the last two ESG for Hieararchs, I like that ESG has a 2/2 body that can contribute in a long game that turns into a ground stalemate, she also surprise-counters Daze, casts unkicked Vines out of nowhere, and is better at enabling turn two kills than Hierarch. That’s enough utility that I’m happy with keeping her for the moment and will be trying a 2/2 split.

(Also, ignore the 8x artifact/enchantment kill spells in the board, that number will go down. It's just four of each until I get around to figuring out what's actually needed.)

I agree with your logic about Giant Growth/Krosa. In the matchups where I used pump to kill opposing creatures instead of combo (Fish and Tempo Thresh), I was pretty disappointed about drawing it. I haven't been paying enough attention to how much the +4 mattered for actually finishing people, so I'm not comfortable swapping yet. What I'm going to do for a while is every time I draw Krosa, I'll make a note of whether I wanted Giant Growth, Krosa, or if it didn't matter. If the results come back decisively for one spell or the other, I'll play that one, otherwise I'll just keep being wishy-washy about it until something convincing comes up :tongue:

On a random note, I wonder if there's a place for Elvish Archers somewhere. They might be pretty hot against Goblins and Fish, though they do die easily to Incinerators. The main problem is that those matchups are pretty good anyways, but it's still something sort of interesting to think about.

[Gui]

@Otter
Hmmm, although you got some pretty bad results against stax, we got two props on this matchup, which is:
a) It is never that much played (at least here), I mean, the never had cut to the top;
b) Our postboard is supposed to easily break them to pieces;

About the Kavu and Kavu-less tests, I aggre no kavu makes invigorate worse, but nevertheless it´s a great combo-card. Thats because it costs 0 and synergies well with Berserk. And the extra chance of +3/+3 when playing kavu is what makes all the thing worthy, I mean, more chances of faster knocking you opponent (even without the berserk combo actually)
And I have to add the "unexpected" as a pro to invigorate: I've killed a fair amount of goyfs by invigorating a nettle sentinel already... Not to mention when I run Vine dryad and create a 5/6 from nothing... But sure, if you are not playing kavu, maybe there's something else way better for you then. Maybe BotH or even Briar/Growth.

[Otter]

@Otter
Hmmm, although you got some pretty bad results against stax, we got two props on this matchup, which is:
a) It is never that much played (at least here), I mean, the never had cut to the top;
b) Our postboard is supposed to easily break them to pieces;

I agree that it isn't frequently played, but did you miss the fifteen games where I boarded in 13 cards and still lost horribly? I'm going to try it again with Gleeful Sabotage, but Seeds is awful and it doesn't bring the matchup up anywhere above completely unwinnable shit. The games I won after boarding were still mostly just games where stax lost to its own draws and didn't have anything to do with the boarded cards.


About the Kavu and Kavu-less tests, I aggre no kavu makes invigorate worse, but nevertheless it´s a great combo-card. Thats because it costs 0 and synergies well with Berserk. And the extra chance of +3/+3 when playing kavu is what makes all the thing worthy, I mean, more chances of faster knocking you opponent (even without the berserk combo actually)
And I have to add the "unexpected" as a pro to invigorate: I've killed a fair amount of goyfs by invigorating a nettle sentinel already... Not to mention when I run Vine dryad and create a 5/6 from nothing... But sure, if you are not playing kavu, maybe there's something else way better for you then. Maybe BotH or even Briar/Growth.

Unless you're Invigorating a Kavu, BotH gives you one more damage on Berserk. It also gives you +3 damage in a race, while Invigorate only gives you +1 unless you pay mana for it. If you're not maindecking Kavu, Invigorate is a worse card. I've played at least eighty games with the Troll/BotH version now and I think I've only lost like two games to not having a card to pitch for Bounty.

Also, why would you ever want to play a Troll/Invigorate setup that boards in Kavu anyways? Troll has some matchups where it's clearly strong, so Troll in the board is an option I can see, but why Kavu in the board? You want to board out Troll against Goblins, but that doesn't mean you want to board in Kavu. If you wanted anti-goblin tech, you'd play Elvish Archers. I guess maybe it's good against Bant with War Monks, but that's gotta be it. Can't seriously be worth a board slot.

[AlterEgo]

15 Forest

Pump (21)
4 Berserk
2 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength
3 Vines of Vastwood

Creature (24)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Scryb Ranger
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Treetop Scout
2 Troll Ascetic

Yes, I cut Bogle!
Yes, he's untargetable, but without Silly's evasion or the Troll's regeneration and body, he just sits there facing some big dude and waiting for me to assemble the combo. I'd prefer a Thornweald Archer to that, as he takes that goyf or whatever with him.

Yes, I cut Invigorate and added 2 Bounty.
This is not tested yet, but I always felt like Invigorate was the false path, especially where I never played Kavu (simply had none, when I threw the deck together).

Yes, only TWO trolls!
They might become the full four, but until now I think two is enough of a stretch for the mana base. And I've come to prefer evasion over muscle.

Some other things I'm going to test in the future:
Deepwood Wolverine - the +2/+0 acts as pseudo-evasion and it MIGHT be a great help when comboing out. I mean a free +4 damage with one Berserk definitely sounds sweet.
Elvish Berserker - probably too bad, compared to dudes with real evasion. But I think it shouldn't go unpondered.

[AcidFiend]

I'm also exploring non Kavu-based lists, instead trialing an amount of Talara's Battalion & BotH.

Anyways, just as a side discussion, assume you were going to include either Thornweald Archer or Deadly Recluse - which is better in this deck?

Both creatures trade with Goyf, however one pump spell means your Deadly Recluse is a 4/5, which would kill Goyf AND probably live.

Or does Thornweald get the nod because a Goyf-owner won't block it anyways; thus getting through and becoming a good Berserk-target.

[Otter]

Anyways, just as a side discussion, assume you were going to include either Thornweald Archer or Deadly Recluse - which is better in this deck?

Thornweald is just better. The whole reason this deck isn't has serious problems is that the creatures don't do enough on their own. If your draw isn't good enough, you get stuck with a bunch of shitty green creatures and die. A two-drop that might occasionally live through combat with something is not as beneficial to the "all creatures can hold their own weight" concept as a similar creature that will always die in combat, but provides double the clock. Also, take the example of Chalice of the Void: lets say your Stax opponent lands a Chalice at 1 and has taken two or three hits from their Ancient Tomb. If you play Thornweald, you have double the clock than if you play Recluse and have at least a slight chance at winnign the game before they find an answer. The Spider doesn't have a hope of winning before they find something.

Anyways, on to some testing: Out of curiosity, I goldfished 100 games of the Troll version and 100 games of the classic Kavu version to see what the average kill turn is. The rules were that I’m always on the play, regular mulligans apply, and the opponent always plays a non-basic on turn one for Skyshroud Elite.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/6449/killturn.jpg
Note: the ? column means the deck mulliganed into oblivion

Kind of odd really, they’re similar to the point of it almost looks like I made up the numbers. The differences between them are just statistical noise. While a lot of the 5/6 turn games from the Troll deck came from drawing a bunch of Rangers, Hierarchs, and Ledgewalkers (1/1s and 0/1s are the best clocks, surprisingly enough) , the Kavu deck got plenty of its own 5/6 turn games from drawing lots of Boggles, Scryb Sprites, and Ledgewalkers.

I know that goldfishing isn’t an incredibly useful metric for evaluating the deck, but it’s still nice to know that our undisrupted fundamental turn is generally 4 or 5, with 3 being an amazing draw and 6 being a terrible draw (2 and above 6 appear to be statistically unlikely enough to ignore). The similarities between the two sets of data also tells us that there’s a lot of room to screw with the cards in the deck. Since converting from the Kavu/Invigorate version to the Troll/BotH version did practically nothing to be basic premise of the deck, it seems safe to say that we should not consider any specific build “sacred” and that we should be open to investigating a lot of different directions.

Here’s my latest idea of the Troll version. I’m going heavy on the side of trying to improve the deck’s weaknesses and bad draws, while hoping that the core concept of the deck will hold together. Therefore I’m going along with the Might of Old Krosa -> Giant Growth change because Giant Growth is better as an instant speed and/or combat trick and that’s something we need more of, if it weakens the combo too much I’ll go back. I’ve taken out the 2 ESGs and 2 Scryb Rangers for a third Hierarch, two Elvish Archers, and a third Giant Growth. As much as I love ESG, it frustrates me how it’s not a more permanent mana source, so in the name of consistency I’m upping the Hierarchs. The pump count goes up by one simply because I’ve felt like I always wanted a little bit more, there are rarely games where I have said, “Wow I wish I drew less pump.” The Archers are an experiment in combat, with a Rancor tacked on they should kill almost everything in the format except Goyf and any of the other pump makes them kill Goyf. They also kill everything in Goblins, while at least trading with those Chieftain-boosted Instigators which were so annoying to defend against. They’re also nice because they’re useful creatures #5-6 that can be cast under CotV at 1, Rangers weren’t providing enough of a clock. I’m a little disappointed to go down to four fliers (Ledgewalker), but it was simply too awful to have a draw that included three 1/1s for 2. Even with BotH to pitch them, it was miserable.

Troll Berserk Stompy
16 Forest

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
1 Slippery Boggle
4 Silhanna Ledgewalker
2 Elvish Archers
4 Troll Ascetic

4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Bounty of the Hunt
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Giant Growth

SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Krosan Grip

Thornweald is definitely something I'm considering, but I want to try Elvish first.

[Gui]

Unless you're Invigorating a Kavu, BotH gives you one more damage on Berserk. It also gives you +3 damage in a race, while Invigorate only gives you +1 unless you pay mana for it. If you're not maindecking Kavu, Invigorate is a worse card. I've played at least eighty games with the Troll/BotH version now and I think I've only lost like two games to not having a card to pitch for Bounty.

BotH pitches a card. Maybe you didn't lose due to that, but the disadvantage of pitching a card on a deck that got no draw engine has to be considered. The possibility of only having another pump to pitch also counts.
If you are running a "combo-intense" version, with kavus, silhanas, bogles, and like 20~21 pumps with Krosa and Seals, every extra pump count, so that you can combo as often as you can.
And whenever (not saying it's always, but it sure is often) you got a kavu + invigorate, it's a +11 dmg for berserking. When you don't it doesn't pitch a card, giving plain +5 dmg for berserk.
If you had to pitch a pump, BotH would be greater, but would disconsider a possible +3 from a seal, or +4 from MooK or VoV.
It won't happen always, but magic is about probabilities, and the chances are that it will happen, and I particulary (personal opinion) don't like taking this chance when the other option don't need.


About the Stax, I might be wrong, but I remember that you sided in a lot of business against Stax, but sided out Creatures. That's the wrong plan. You should go more aggro than ever against control decks like stax. You could even side Berserks out since it'll be hard to play rightly. Side in Shushers, the lands (prevention from screw), and Krosan Grips/Naturalizes, let silhana, rancor, kavu and invigorate inside. I don't care if it's Bogle's 1/1, if you got creatures on the board, you got better chances against then.


About the Troll, you probably should try to use Silhana + Bogle + Troll, and go for a 20 pump build, with Seal, Briar and Krosa. Sure, pitch invigorate if you are not running kavu, although I think invigorate is better due to a thing I call Card Advantage. Troll's an excelent card to use with every pump, berserk included, and thus, you can tweak your strategy a little, sticking to a line and being master of something. But if you prefer going aggro, although troll is good against aggro, it's not an aggro card at all. It's slow, and is master in preventing, so, i would call him a control card. And control, as we know, can help combo to go off without problems.

Some final comment on Kavu, I think you should give Kavu a try on the Troll version. When it comes to the 5/5 trample guy, it's auto-win lots of times... and you don't need to save the invigorate for the berserk moment if you get a chance to deal all the 9 dmg (so that you get a +3/+3 enchant for free). And it fit's the "combo" strategy. EDIT: Second thought, it also fit's the aggro strategy. well, it fits the strategy.


Last, I'd like to say that we could use our versatility more often. We got a Aggro-Combo deck here, that can switch from combo stance (with lots of pumps and evasions) to aggro (with swarmish creatures). Although our aggro can't handle Zoo, it should handle stuff like Stax and MUC (not saying muc is common) that are high controlish decks and stall against aggro-swarmish decks. You asked me why whould I bother running Kavu as Sideboard? The answer is: Because kavu changes the game plan that way. I can go aggressive by adding Kavu + Vexing to a list with 20 creatures, and get really hard to hold.


But look: I'm not saying it's the right option, just mentioning that it's a possibility and that it's not a stupid one.

[Otter]

I'll try playing the Stax matchup a bit differently for you, see how it goes.

You should make sure to read what I just posted above yours (I think I posted after you started writing your post). It kind of disproves the whole idea that the Invigorate + Kavu stuff is more "combo intense," considering it had practically identical goldfish turns to the Troll + BotH deck. Have you even played the BotH deck? I'm getting the distinct impression of no.

Look, I gotta be honest here: I'm getting kind of frustrated with this thread. I've logged a lot of hours testing this archetype. I've played the classic version and the Troll version in a lot of different matchups (I've posted over a hundred playtest games and two hundred goldfish results and I haven't even posted everything I have done). This is what I get back, a bunch of theory and garbage about what's a control deck and card advantage? Go spend a good couple of hours doing playtest games with both versions and then say what you think about Bounty. I'm just going to go test on my own and try to get a version of the deck that addresses the weaknesses and can actually survive on the worse draws while still comboing out quickly with the good draws. Those of you that prefer to keep the deck exactly as it is can enjoy doing that, at least it shouldn't be hard to prove that the matchups don't improve if the deck doesn't change, that doesn't take much testing. I'll be back either when I have a list that fixes the deck's problems or data that shows they can't be fixed.

edit -- for those of you that actually are branching out and testing things: thank you!

[Gui]

I'll try playing the Stax matchup a bit differently for you, see how it goes.

You should make sure to read what I just posted above yours (I think I posted after you started writing your post). It kind of disproves the whole idea that the Invigorate + Kavu stuff is more "combo intense," considering it had practically identical goldfish turns to the Troll + BotH deck.
Read it.

I like Giant Growth, have used it many times instead of krosa and seals, it won't disapoint you. Although you don't care, it's more aggro-oriented, and so is Vines of Vastwood, and Rancor, so you should probably want some combo business of the sideboard if you want to follow that thought of mine:

Last, I'd like to say that we could use our versatility more often. We got a Aggro-Combo deck here, that can switch from combo stance (with lots of pumps and evasions) to aggro (with swarmish creatures).


I preffer Goyf over both Archers, and I don't like the Deathtouch one because it dies if you don't have a pump, and i'm not sure how it improves our badmatchs, but if you find out something, let us know.



EDIT:

Good:
Threshold
Merfolk
Bant (?)

50/50:
Naya Zoo
U/W Tempo
Progenitus Countertop
Goblins

Bad:
Enchantress
Belcher
Aggro Loam
Eva Green
Dredge

I think some test is required here too. But I believe we can get Eva green at least to the 50/50 pile. Eva Green has some trouble with several guyss unless if they play contagion, which I don't remember they playing...

Enchantress is probably favorable in the post-board, specially if you run 5~6 naturalize/gleeful/krosan or few Reverent Silence. Considering both pre and postboard, it might not be that badmatch too.

Oh, and Goblins is goodmatch.

[Gui]

I've tested Martyr of Spores a few times, and the results are positive from what I saw.

I was running a 20-pump Kavu based list with a 3/3 split of Krosa and Seal and 2 Vastwood, and to test the martyrs I did cut Krosa, since I wanted to make it easier to use Berserk with less mana.

Most of the games that I needed Martyr as a pump, it was +3/+3. I like it's versatility because it was used a few times as the 1st turn drop to help Skarrg second turn.

None of the games that I played I could use the possibility of pumping to avoid 2-to-1 removal on the attack phase, but I kind of expected that, since they know I would break him, and also, I did pump him only few times too.

A concern I had was about my list running Vine Dryads (which I run in the spot of Skyshroud Elite or Jungle Lion, keeping Nettle Sentinels inside) since it decreases the strength of martyr, but I practicaly didn't find that situation.
Once in a while I got both in hand, but i didn't need one or the other, so, can't say how they would affect.

Also, I was wondering that even if I used Bounty of the Hunt, there would be no problems at all, since you can use it before BotH for at least +2, and if you have a zerk, +3.

[swordoffireandice]

Hi there,

I have tested against Zoo again yesterday.
Vines of Vastwood are very very good as well as the free pump spells.
I played with the Kavu/Invigorate and 1 Bounty.

16 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Slippery Boggle
3 Skyshroud Elite
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhanna Ledgewalker
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Giant Growth
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Vines of Vastwood
1 Bounty of the Hunt

SB:
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Hidden Gibbons
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus


You have to change strategy depending on your opening hand.
Sometimes my strategy was to block his creatures and use pump spells and VooV to save my creatures. This way I could finish the games with Silhana and Rancor.
When I saw Berserk in my hand, I saved the pump spells to do lethal damage with one creature.
Noble Hierarch is great to for having a mana open when they use Chain Lightning or Bolt in there turn. VooV saved my creatures a lot of times then!

One specific game I played first turn forest and Hierarch. Next turn another forest and Kavu, with Invigorate another pump and Berserk and VooV in my hand.
His turn he tried StP my Kavu wich I saved with VooV. My turn I went of......
I also lost some few games, most of them were because I had mana problems or to few pump spells. Then our creatures are just too small!

[umbowta]

I also lost some few games, most of them were because I had mana problems or to few pump spells. Then our creatures are just too small!

Add Horizon Canopy and Pendlehaven. You get extra mana, reusable pump, and card filtering/draw...and I hope you're not running the 15 land version.

Seriously folks, running less than 17 land is wrong. You NEED 2 land in play to operate effectively. Sometimes you might get lucky with a one land victory but it's inconsistent as an old man on an all cheese diet. Consistency wins tournaments, not cutting down to 15 lands so that you can cram in some more pump spells.

[swordoffireandice]

Add Horizon Canopy and Pendlehaven. You get extra mana, reusable pump, and card filtering/draw...and I hope you're not running the 15 land version.

Seriously folks, running less than 17 land is wrong. You NEED 2 land in play to operate effectively. Sometimes you might get lucky with a one land victory but it's inconsistent as an old man on an all cheese diet. Consistency wins tournaments, not cutting down to 15 lands so that you can cram in some more pump spells.

16 land and 4x Hierarch...

[Gui]

Add Horizon Canopy and Pendlehaven. You get extra mana, reusable pump, and card filtering/draw...and I hope you're not running the 15 land version.

Seriously folks, running less than 17 land is wrong. You NEED 2 land in play to operate effectively. Sometimes you might get lucky with a one land victory but it's inconsistent as an old man on an all cheese diet. Consistency wins tournaments, not cutting down to 15 lands so that you can cram in some more pump spells.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is running any 15L version without hierarch backup, even because some of our powerfull sideboards are 3cc like Krosan Grip or Seeds. But even if you can manage to cut all of that, you still want the extra land to double-pumps.

As a side note, the chance of getting 2 or more lands in 10 draws(inicial + 3 turn draws) with 15 lands is 77%, and with 18 it's 86%. Even though, if you disconsider hands with 5 or more lands (which means: 2+3+4 lands in 10 draws), you have 42% with 15 lands, and 50% with 18...
And if you consider 7 draws, and ideal hands of 2~3 lands, the most favorable number we will get is 60%, and 18 lands has 57% of chance on getting 2~3, while 15 has 50%.

Further information on this may be found here: http://www.filefront.com/15378711/Cards%20Check.xls
(http://www.filefront.com/15378711/Cards%20Check.xls)


Now, about the tests with Martyr of Spores, I discontinued it. Against Zoo it gets pretty worse. It's burneable, and it's a 2cc pump that requires you to hold your cards to work well. And since I was runnig him instead of a pump, I was willing to get a pump, not a 1/1 vanilla. Maybe Pendelhaven can work something out for him, and then run it instead of nettle/elite?
Although, I don't think I wanna test pendelhaven anymore... It does't like rancor in silhana/bogle, and don't like the remeaning creatures, and so, it got a low % of chance of being good.

[umbowta]

Although, I don't think I wanna test pendelhaven anymore... It does't like rancor in silhana/bogle, and don't like the remeaning creatures, and so, it got a low % of chance of being good.It taps for green mana, doesn't come into play tapped, and it can pump any one of the approximately 12 1/1's you may have in play. If only it weren't legendary. Even so I'm running two of them and love it. Yes, sometimes I don't have a 1/1 to pump but it still taps for green. I honestly can't believe I have to argue for its inclusion at all when I've heard so many folks saying they lose to mana screw/having only 1/1 in play with no pumps left..

[Gui]

It taps for green mana, doesn't come into play tapped, and it can pump any one of the approximately 12 1/1's you may have in play. If only it weren't legendary. Even so I'm running two of them and love it. Yes, sometimes I don't have a 1/1 to pump but it still taps for green. I honestly can't believe I have to argue for its inclusion at all when I've heard so many folks saying they lose to mana screw/having only 1/1 in play with no pumps left..

It's personal, but I dont use it because I prefer basic forest. I don't think the advantage it brings is better than the disadvantage of having non-basic, and thus, wastland targets. It's not because it taps for green and do something else that it's better than basic forest.

[AcidFiend]

I tend to agree. A lot of decks are running 4 x Wasteland. We run 100% basics for a reason, and low land count. You cannot afford to have a precious land wasted just for to add 1 damage to your Bogle.

[umbowta]

I tend to agree. A lot of decks are running 4 x Wasteland. We run 100% basics for a reason, and low land count. You cannot afford to have a precious land wasted just for to add 1 damage to your Bogle.

Actually, I can afford to have a land Wasted...since there are 17 more where that one came from, 13 of which are basic forests. Now if I happen to get stuck on 2 nonbasics (out of 5 total in the deck) AND they happen to have 2 wastelands, then I frown. Also, its not just for adding one damage to bogle. I don't even run bogle for the simple fact that it has no built in evasion. Troll shroud is good but evasion is king.
I've been running 18 land in the deck since I tested Chapuzas' version over a year ago and felt like the deck needed one more land. I won the Beta Bash with that build but I still felt like it was missing something. The deck runs best on 3 land but any past that is just pointless. Horizon Canopy and Pendlehaven are both gas in the late game when you can cycle canopies away for extra cards and/or use pendlehaven to make Silhana just a little bit bigger before you Berserk it for the last few points.

[Gui]

Actually, I can afford to have a land Wasted...since there are 17 more where that one came from, 13 of which are basic forests. Now if I happen to get stuck on 2 nonbasics (out of 5 total in the deck) AND they happen to have 2 wastelands, then I frown. Also, its not just for adding one damage to bogle. I don't even run bogle for the simple fact that it has no built in evasion. Troll shroud is good but evasion is king.
I've been running 18 land in the deck since I tested Chapuzas' version over a year ago and felt like the deck needed one more land. I won the Beta Bash with that build but I still felt like it was missing something. The deck runs best on 3 land but any past that is just pointless. Horizon Canopy and Pendlehaven are both gas in the late game when you can cycle canopies away for extra cards and/or use pendlehaven to make Silhana just a little bit bigger before you Berserk it for the last few points.

In my opinion, Horizon Canopy is somehow better than pendelhaven, since it's harder to be wasted (draw a card in response), and since an extra card seems to be better than aditional +1/+2 to some creatures.


What are you running on sideboard right now?

[swordoffireandice]

I am running 4 Canopies in a white/green deck with Aether Vial, they are most welkom if you have too many lands. Vial is just great if they have wasteland.
I am willing to try them out in my Stompy deck. I will give Pendelhaven a try also. I will go back to 17 lands though. Even with 4 Hierarch in the deck.

[umbowta]

In my opinion, Horizon Canopy is somehow better than pendelhaven, since it's harder to be wasted (draw a card in response), and since an extra card seems to be better than aditional +1/+2 to some creatures.


What are you running on sideboard right now?

Agreed. My testing leads me to believe that 3 is the right number for Canopy. I don't mind multiples in the late game but I don't want an opening hand flooded with them either. Pendlehaven, as you suggest, is good to a lesser degree. I fluctuate between 1 and 2 of them...too bad I can't run 1.5.

My current sideboard is set up for a meta containing control, thresh based aggro control, and other aggro decks(which I essentially ignore).

4x Rushwood Legate
3x Reverent Silence
3x Seeds of Innocence
3x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt

The one I can see you questioning, Reverent Silence, is there for White Stax and Enchantress. Whether they're hiding behind Ghostly Prison/Oblivion Ring or Elephant Grass etc...Reverent Silence is game breaking even if you don't have Kavu on the battlefield.

[Gui]

3x Reverent Silence
3x Seeds of Innocence
3x Krosan Grip

Have to comment that I was using exact the same numbers here. Thought I was too wierd doing that, at least I'm not the only one. ^_^
This part of the side seems to be able to enter into a lot of games.
Checking: Enchantress, Stax, Aggro-Loam (chalice, moxes and words), Affinity, CB top (I like Reverent silence against it), and probably some other things I'm missing.

Then I run 3 Tormods mostly against Loam -n- Ichorid.

Just was thinking about the Zoo matchup that isn't impossibly bad, but isn't good match either... that's why I was concerned about it. Just wanted to add something (even reducing something else) to handle it to at least 60% postboard, but can't be sure on what to use.
I did consider Jitte, or simply Bounty of the Hunt (since I don't run them), or even Troll Ascetic.

I don't run legate, never felt like it broke some matchup for me, and usually, blue on the other side is a color in our favor already. I used to side shusher, but now I'm not sure about him either...

[umbowta]

Just was thinking about the Zoo matchup that isn't impossibly bad, but isn't good match either... that's why I was concerned about it. Just wanted to add something (even reducing something else) to handle it to at least 60% postboard, but can't be sure on what to use.
I did consider Jitte, or simply Bounty of the Hunt (since I don't run them), or even Troll Ascetic.

I don't run legate, never felt like it broke some matchup for me, and usually, blue on the other side is a color in our favor already.I'm about the only one locally who is willing to pilot Zoo. Most others I talk to around here have a low oppinion of that DTB and they opt to play Thresh, Landstill, Aggro-Loam, Stax, Enchantress, and some players try to pilot Combo and fail to themselves...so I tend not to board locally for combo or Zoo. That leaves me room for Legate which is total beatings against blue based control.

[Gui]

I'm about the only one locally who is willing to pilot Zoo. Most others I talk to around here have a low oppinion of that DTB and they opt to play Thresh, Landstill, Aggro-Loam, Stax, Enchantress, and some players try to pilot Combo and fail to themselves...so I tend not to board locally for combo or Zoo. That leaves me room for Legate which is total beatings against blue based control.

This is the side I'll be using:

3 Tormod's
3 Seeds
3 Reverent
3 Krosan
3 Troll Ascetic

Although it seems useless sometimes, I also like adding a singleton Gaea's Blessing, so maybe I'll be cutting Seeds down to 2.

I believe Troll can bring the victory against Zoo only by showing up and denying their 1cc attacks, since it can chump-block + regen, and can't be removed. So, it seems the best option to bring that match to a greater level.
IMHO, Eva Green and Team America are already favorable, but Troll shall be good here too.

From what we consider to be good matchs, most of the control decks (besides stax) are already favorable, and siding Grips to counter-attack E.E., deeds, Shackles, threads, and other possible stuff seems fine enough.

Against Stax, Affinity, Enchantress, Painter, and other possible Artifact/Enchantment intense matchs, the 3-3-3 configuration always comes in. Against CB+Top, Krosan grip and maybe Reverent shall be enough, since if they cant cb-top-lock us, the match gets easier.

Against Aggro loam and Ichorid I'd side Tormod's, and krosan against loam. Ichorid isn't favorable by just adding tormods, but we do have a chance of killing then before they combo without it. As a awsome tech, don't forget to berserk some guy to break bridge. =)

ANT and TES depends on their build, but if they don't use Ill Gotten Gains, them I got nothing SB. If it's a much expected matchup, I would change the Zoo-hate for Combo-hate, probably Mindbreak trap (which needs testing). Even though, it's an unfavorable match. As it's been said, try to rush them so that AN can't be abused.

Against Dream Halls if you see any, try to rush him, so he will be forced to combo with progenitus. They spend quite some life to use lim-dul. Progenitus gives you 2 attacks before your death (with 1 chump-block), but it's still possible to kill them by turn 4~5.

Did I miss anything?

[umbowta]

This is the side I'll be using:

3 Tormod's
3 Seeds
3 Reverent
3 Krosan
3 Troll Ascetic

Against Stax, Affinity, Enchantress, Painter, and other possible Artifact/Enchantment intense matchs, the 3-3-3 configuration always comes in.
You mean a select few of those 3-3-3 come in right? I don't think I'd ever want to board in all 9 of them.


Although it seems useless sometimes, I also like adding a singleton Gaea's Blessing, so maybe I'll be cutting Seeds down to 2.

I believe Troll can bring the victory against Zoo only by showing up and denying their 1cc attacks, since it can chump-block + regen, and can't be removed. So, it seems the best option to bring that match to a greater level.
IMHO, Eva Green and Team America are already favorable, but Troll shall be good here too.



I had a singleton Gaea's Blessing in the board and it might has well have been a 2 of clubs. It literally felt totally useless.

My initial reaction to Troll in the board is, "Not a chance". I think it's too little, too late. Their 1cc guys trade with Troll before you get regen online and by that time in the game you're probably getting close to being burned out with or without a troll. It's seems to me that stalling the Zoo rush just long enough to put together a big finish is all that might be needed. I put together a list of a few possibilities:

Constant Mists
Fruition
Avoid Fate
Traproot Kami
VoV
Xantid Swarm
Maze of Ith
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Moments Peace
Tangle
Kitchen Finks
Phantom Nantuko
Meekstone

These are all aimed at either avoiding their removal or just slowing the Zoo rush down a bit. There might be something you find is worth trying. Let us know how it works out though.

[Gui]

You mean a select few of those 3-3-3 come in right? I don't think I'd ever want to board in all 9 of them.

Wow, of course I meant that! ;D



I had a singleton Gaea's Blessing in the board and it might has well have been a 2 of clubs. It literally felt totally useless.
Hmmm... yeah... Only use is against High Tide, and I see it close to never.



These are all aimed at either avoiding their removal or just slowing the Zoo rush down a bit. There might be something you find is worth trying. Let us know how it works out though.

Well, it was tested by Otter, although in a different version of the deck, but I'm pretty sure he mentioned that Troll did great.

I don't think it's slow although it won't solve the problem all the time. I think by third~fourth turn Zoo can't beat us, even if they get closer by those turns. Zoo is faster when draw less removal, and in that situation, they can't slow us down, making it easier to survive.

By turn 3, with 18 lands you will have 3 lands ~60% of the time.

Of course I'm not counting only on that (since I would find Troll by turn 3 with 3 lands on board like 25% of the matchs, considering it's chance to appear).
I already play 3 Vines of Vastwood maindeck, and I also play 4 Bogle + 4 Silhana, which is a lot of burn-proof. I know it may sound reduntant, but VoV is slower than seal, but has more Damage, which is some advantage, making it less sub-optimal when I don't need the protection.

Well, can't say anything else before tests.

[Phaedrus]

New pump from WWK:

Groundswell G
Instant (common)
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, that creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn instead.

A better MoOK variant that allows for combat tricks, however in this deck with land counts running on the low end of the spectrum (anywhere between 14-18 depending on the build), perhaps it's not the most reliable option.

Thoughts?

[AlterEgo]

New pump from WWK:

Groundswell G
Instant (common)
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, that creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn instead.

A better MoOK variant that allows for combat tricks, however in this deck with land counts running on the low end of the spectrum (anywhere between 14-18 depending on the build), perhaps it's not the most reliable option.

Thoughts?

I thought the same when I saw that card. I'll definitely test that card in the MoOK-Slot - I find myself flooded WAY to often and with Scryb Ranger (and/or its Quirion cousin) it might even be useful.
Nevertheless I still think Krosa might be the better play most of the time.

[Otter]

Pretty sure that Groundswell is not what we're looking for. With such a low land count it's difficult to obtain real consistancy with the card unless you run Scryb or Quirion Ranger. Scryb Ranger doesn't have the power to manacost ratio necessary to be a really good maindeck card (you can board her again against Fish, there she's at her best). I haven't tested Quirion Ranger, but I'm guessing that Hierarch is better. So without those two engines, it's inconsistent. It's not much more impressive than Krosa at pumping on the kill turn, its only advantage being that if you have one more guy than they can block, you can Groundswell after blockers more effectively than Krosa. When you're not going on the kill for offense, just trying to force a trade with one of their guys, it's good. It's strictly worse than any other option on the defense. With that said, it's still interesting and should get tested, but I suspect that the inconsistency (or forcing you to play Rangers) will be an issue.

The other card that looks interesting right now is:


Canopy Cover - 1G
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature can't be blocked except by creatures with flying and/or reach.
Enchanted creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

Basically just "Enchanted Creature is a Ledgewalker." I don't think it can make the cut, since unlike Ledgewalker there's an opening to target the creature in response and it's also not actually a beater or a pump spell. On the other hand, Ledgewalker is an absolutely sick creature in this deck and the opportunity to turn anything into one is appealing. If only it were an equipment.

[CHaPuZaS]

Auch!

Too bad Berserk Stompy didn't make the cut for "every single deck in Legacy"...

... So Many Insane Plays - Your Complete Guide to Legacy: The 50 Decks of Legacy (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/18707.html) by Stephen Menendian ...

;(

[Gui]

New pump from WWK:

Groundswell G
Instant (common)
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, that creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn instead.

A better MoOK variant that allows for combat tricks, however in this deck with land counts running on the low end of the spectrum (anywhere between 14-18 depending on the build), perhaps it's not the most reliable option.

Thoughts?

That's not better than Might of Old Krosa. It's even. MoOK depends on nothing to reach +4/+4 for the berserk (or not), but this can be used to get +4/+4 during combat in your turn. None gives +4/+4 on opponent's turn though. It's slightly better than MoOK against aggro decks that will often try to block your underlings with something. But against those same decks you may want to try to find an opportunity to go to the final blast, and in that case, you would need to hold a land in hand so that Groundwell gets similar to MoOK.

Seems like it has an easy way around, but if you got Silhana and Grounds, one landin table and one in hand (and probably a 1cc creature played), you will be asking yourself "play Silhana or hold land" and then decide that the odds of drawing a land are better, and so you would play the second land like ~100% of the time you got Grounds. But not 100% of the time on that situation we will find the third land, making it subpar to MoOK. Maybe it will only happen in the 20% of the games, in which you will find only 1~2 lands, but that makes it subpar 1/5 of the time.

[Otter]

Nature's Claim - G
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment, its controller gains four life.

This would go extremely well in the Kavu build if only it didn't fail miserably at killing Chalice and Counterbalance, the two things it really needs to kill. Rather frustrating.

[umbowta]

Auch!

Too bad Berserk Stompy didn't make the cut for "every single deck in Legacy"...

... So Many Insane Plays - Your Complete Guide to Legacy: The 50 Decks of Legacy (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/18707.html) by Stephen Menendian ...

;(Hmmpf. It's sad, but I like it that way. Less advertising means more surprise factor.

[AcidFiend]

Perhaps we should discuss this list - http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31912

This guy has a number of T8's on DeckCheck, probably the only player still doing well with an incarnation of this deck. I think people that play Stompy have a reluctance to splash. Not sure why, probably because of the cost of dual-lands. If we want to stay competitive though, we need to face facts: no-one has been consistently doing well with the mono-green version for a long time now.

I'd be keen to try this list if I had any Goyfs :(

[Gui]

Perhaps we should discuss this list - http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31912

This guy has a number of T8's on DeckCheck, probably the only player still doing well with an incarnation of this deck. I think people that play Stompy have a reluctance to splash. Not sure why, probably because of the cost of dual-lands. If we want to stay competitive though, we need to face facts: no-one has been consistently doing well with the mono-green version for a long time now.

I'd be keen to try this list if I had any Goyfs :(

If you got all the rest, you probably should get the goyfs... But you may try some other replacements for goyf... try Silhanas or River Boa, or even 1cc like nettle, jungle or other stuff... Well, none will be as great as goyf in this deck though, since it's designed to abuse the 4 goyfs maindeck.

This deck is in the mainpage already. Most of the players consider going 3C Berserk subpar to 3C Zoo, that's why it's not more popular... But yes, many people go splashs here.

What first come to my sight is that it's got 8 one-shot acceleration and 16 lands, which means 24 slots for mana. Although it looks like a lot, seems to be working for him...

[AcidFiend]

Ah ok - hadn't seen much love for splashing thats all. 3C Zoo might > 3C Stompy, but what about 2C Stompy? There are some really sweet cards we can use by splashing white, and I think the splash red for Fling aint worth it. Just brainstorming here:

4 Hierarch
4 Loam Lion
3 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu Predator

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains

SB:
1 Mother of Runes
3 Krosan Grip
3 City of Solitude
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Troll Ascetic

When I have spare time I'm testing Dredge & Belcher configurations. Next up though I'll be testing something like this.

Also Bushi Tenderfoot (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/2.html)/Kenzo (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/307.html) could go in a G/W pump deck, ka-ching!

Edit: thx Umbowta for the manabase

[Gui]

You probably don't need 2 plains, maybe 1, or maybe the savanas are enough for the splash.
You could make use of Horizon Canopy, at least more than other versions.

I was to say that about Fling, I don't think it is reason enough to play red.There's a card in red that I like a lot and isn't in the list: Reckless Charge. Pump with flashback! Of course there is Nacatl, but I think the best splash is probably the white one too.

And by the way, there's a green +1/+2 pump with flashback named Thrill of the Hunt and I think it could be useful, since it can multiple save your creatures. Just an idea...

[umbowta]

You probably don't need 2 plains, maybe 1, or maybe the savanas are enough for the splash.
You could make use of Horizon Canopy, at least more than other versions.



You're crazy, Gui_Brasi. 23 out of 43 spells in AcidFiend's list, that's more than half, require white in their casting cost. If anything it needs more Plains, not less. First turn Mom, Loam Lion, or StP dont happen without it. Not that I'm saying I like the list or not, but If it's run at all, the mana should be more like:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains

...and cut down to 60 cards for 4uck$ sake

[Gui]

You're crazy, Gui_Brasi. 23 out of 43 spells in AcidFiend's list, that's more than half, require white in their casting cost. If anything it needs more Plains, not less. First turn Mom, Loam Lion, or StP dont happen without it. Not that I'm saying I like the list or not, but If it's run at all, the mana should be more like:

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains

...and cut down to 60 cards for 4uck$ sake

Sorry, you are right. My bad.

[badjuju]

Just wondering, what has everyone's latest lists been looking like?

[NecroYawgmoth]

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker

4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
3 Seal of Strength
2 Vines of Vastwood

15 Snow-Covered Forest

////

4 Seeds of Innocence
4 Vexing Shusher
2 Naturalize //// Wear Away
2 Reverent Silence
3 Ravenous Trap


YawG

[Gui]

Just wondering, what has everyone's latest lists been looking like?

I'm playing something like this:

// Lands
15 [ZEN] Forest (1)
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [GP] Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 [EVE] Slippery Bogle
4 [GP] Silhana Ledgewalker
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [UL] Rancor
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [A] Berserk
3 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
4 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MI] Seeds of Innocence
SB: 3 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt


I always modify something to test using this raw. The last sideboard slot is kind of open.

[AcidFiend]

I'm sticking with the hybrid build I discussed earlier, but have modified it along the lines of U/W Tempo:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Serra Avenger
4 Watchwolf
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Troll Ascetic

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Might of Old Krosa
3 Rancor
4 Berserk
2 Double Cleave

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
5 Plains
4 Forest

SB:
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Glowrider
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Troll Ascetic
3 Krosan Grip

I've played about 30 test games online with this with some good results. I dropped Goyf, Predator & Invigorate. Some observations:

-The MVP's of this build are Jotun Grunt & Serra Avenger. These get me the most wins. No surprises here as they are staples in U/W.
-Double Cleave does enough to warrant its spot. I wouldn't play more than two, but they act as Berserk #5 & #6. Unblocked, its the same damage as a Berserk, and if the creature already has trample (Rancor), its the same blocked as well. Add to this it usually saves your creature instead of killing it. Berserk & DS are great together.
-Aether Vial can sit at 2 all day long, frees up your mana to play your pumps. Could probably go down to 3, as you only need one @ two.
-Mother of Runes is great. She'll either eat a removal straight away, or lets your guys get in for good damage.

I haven't tested the sideboard extensively yet. Glowrider is completely untested and possibly too slow.

For me this version is a lot of fun and I won't be going back to MonoGreen anytime soon. People might wonder why play this over the U/W Tempo deck it looks like. To them I say: Berserk, Pridemage, Krosan Grip, Teeg and fun :) Also I haven't had a chance to test Firewalker, but I'm guessing its decent against Goblins/Zoo/Burn.

[Gui]

Been wondering about running Jittes MD. I mean, a resolved and not destroyed Jitte against any aggro deck is good enough to give us a game, and Jitte counters opposing Jitte's, which are showing up more and more each time (probably because of the rising amount of aggro decks that work in the format, headed by zoo and slight)

Besides, we got like 4~8 of the best jitte carriers in the format, which is the troll shroud ones, and every other creature in the deck can use it... Only concern is being target to the artifact removals MD that is highly used: Pridemage.

Anyone tested it MD already, somehow?

Besides, instead of Jitte, I'm seriously considering using 2 naturalize, viridian zealot, or grip MD, giving extra SB space and a chance of winning against few darn things like jitte, chalice, cb+top, enchantress in the first game. I did it a few times already (using naturalizes MD), but I'm not sure if it would be as effective in the current lists.

Well, at least one thing I can say: The w splash is totally worth when it comes to pridemages. They are way better than Zealot at least...

[Otter]

Been wondering about running Jittes MD. I mean, a resolved and not destroyed Jitte against any aggro deck is good enough to give us a game, and Jitte counters opposing Jitte's, which are showing up more and more each time (probably because of the rising amount of aggro decks that work in the format, headed by zoo and slight)

Besides, we got like 4~8 of the best jitte carriers in the format, which is the troll shroud ones, and every other creature in the deck can use it... Only concern is being target to the artifact removals MD that is highly used: Pridemage.

Anyone tested it MD already, somehow?

There are essentially three aggro decks, Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk. I don't see it being useful against Zoo, the whole matchup still revolves around, "Can we stick a shrouded guy?" and Jitte doesn't really change that. As you said, it also turns on their Pridemages, which is bad. Merfolk is a joke matchup. I could see it making Goblins a little easier, but I don't think beating Goblins is really a huge priority. The deck's bad matchups are still Stax, CB, and combo, Jitte doesn't fix any of that at all.


Besides, instead of Jitte, I'm seriously considering using 2 naturalize, viridian zealot, or grip MD, giving extra SB space and a chance of winning against few darn things like jitte, chalice, cb+top, enchantress in the first game. I did it a few times already (using naturalizes MD), but I'm not sure if it would be as effective in the current lists.

Agreed that the deck needs this in some way or another, not auto-losing to an opening Chalice at 1 or Counterbalance is really nice.
Been messing with Zealots, I really like them, haven't tried Naturalize or Grip. The Kavu list has some trouble fitting them in (but it's still probably worth it), the Troll list does it easily, and the weird hybrid list I've been screwing with can fit them pretty easily as well.

Also, Naturalize is horrible compared to Gleeful Sabotage. Instant speed is nowhere near as good as being able to go through a Chalice @ 2, a Counterbalance, or take out like a Chalice @ 1 and a Ghostly Prison at the same time against Stax.


Well, at least one thing I can say: The w splash is totally worth when it comes to pridemages. They are way better than Zealot at least...

I really want to do a GW version with Isamaru, Jotun Grunt, Pridemage, StP (to make Predator consistently amazing), etc. Something like:

2 Isamaru
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Pit Skulk
3 Heirarch
4 Pridemage
4 Predator
4 Ledgewalker
1 Jotun Grunt

4 StP
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
2 Vines

7 Forest
4 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Windswept

SB:
4 Silence
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Gleeful Satotage
4 Forge Tender / Absolute Law

Probably still worse than the monogreen versions just due to manabase consistency, but damn does it ever look fun. I would love to nail a Goyf with StP while having a Predator out.

[badjuju]

How many Zealots do you find appropriate?
I'm still running the original green version with Kavu and evasive dudes. The weakest link is probably Boggle or Nettle Sentinel. They're both good for different reasons, but I wouldn't mind going 3/3 with them instead of 4/4.

I too agree that problematic artifacts are pretty lame if we can't deal with them game 1.

[Otter]

*shrug* I'd say in general, more is better. Four might be excessive, but really I'd rather have to pay two mana for a mediocre 2/1 in my other matchups in order not to scoop to "Tomb, Chalice, go. For Kavu, the problem with cutting Boggle is that you just need Shroud to not lose to Zoo or other removal-heavy decks. You could probably do something like:

16 Forest

4 Nettle
4 Skyshroud
4 Skulk
4 Boggle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Predator
3 Zealot

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
3 Krosa/Growth
2 Vines

As we all know by now, you can pretty much screw with any of the numbers that you want and the fundamental deck doesn't change much. So yeah, this could go with a bit less Boggle/Nettle and a bit more Krosa/Growth and Vines.

[Gui]

2 Isamaru
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Pit Skulk
3 Heirarch
4 Pridemage
4 Predator
4 Ledgewalker
1 Jotun Grunt

4 StP
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
2 Vines

7 Forest
4 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Windswept

SB:
4 Silence
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Gleeful Satotage
4 Forge Tender / Absolute Law

I like this version a lot, that's probably something near what I would play... but I'll stick to monogreen exactly due to mana consistancy... I mean, our best matchup is the most played deck in the format, and in my meta, and mana issues would break it apart.

Agree with gleeful sabotage's hability to go through chalice @2 and cb+top, although the most deadly chalice is @1 and if they got chalice @2 you are probably doom'd already (name a player that plays @2 before having @1 on table) , and it still can be counteded on the stack, but hell yeah, gonna try it instead krosan because of the extra techs and lower costs
Also thought about that @ Jitte, gonna let it aside for now...

About the number of Zealots, since it's a creature, and can take a creature spot, I think you can run as much as you think it's necesary for your meta. You could possibly run 4! I'd try to run only 2~3 though...

Edit: I'm running a list like Otter's advice, except with 4 krosa, and 2 gleeful, not zealot. (didn't see the post before oO )

[NihilObstat]

Hi there everyone! First of all this is an awesome thread thanks to all of you guys, so keep it up !!!

Secondly, I need some advice, I am going to play Stompy at Madrid GP next Weekend, Monogreen Powahh!!!!!! And I'm going through the stress and problems of the last days.

I'm posting my built underneath, and I would love to hear any advice you might give me:

My Jungle Buddies
4- Slippery Boggle
4- Silhana Ledgewalker
4- Kavu Predator
and now the first problem
3-4? Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4? Skyshroud Elite or 2 Skyshroud and 2 Nettle sentinel taking in account I play in Spain, where many guys will be palying MonoC, specially first 3 rounds Also for fitting either 4 SE or 2 and 2 I would have to take 1 Skarrgan out
2- Scryb Sprites
2- Tarmo...yeah I'm not sure about him, and without him I could take Fetchlands out and Seal of Strength out, which is a Plus

Nature's Brute Force Spells
4- Berserk
4- Rancor
4- Invigorate
4- Might of old Krosa, too good for a 10 cent pumper ^^
4? Depending on Tarmo or not 4 Seal of Strength or 2 VinesOVW and 2 Giant Growth / 4 Vines / 4 Growths

17 lands, I like 16 better, it's sounds a lot better to my ears, but which fetchies it has to be 17

9 Sweet Forests
2 Fetchies of each colour, 8 total

I've read so far 10 pages form the 16 this thread has, I don't know if I'm missing something or if you've already gone over something similar, but thanks a lot for everything. Just one again, what could I trade for Tarmo??? I don't like the Troll, too expensive, so is there anything quite as nice. My choice is quite personal I really hate Stiffle to Fetchlands, and to Seals, I actually hate legacy blue a lot ^^

Sideboard
4- Tormod's I have chosen Tormods because I fear a lot more a Therapy to discard the Trap because 100% of Dredges have Therapy, than Pithing Needle going to Tormod's because not everyone will have that, and Therapy's flashback is a plus that Needle doesn't have in dredge, it's just personal choice, tell me if you think I'm wrong.
4- Rushwood Legate
4?- Seeds of Innocence taking in account I play in Spain, I know there will be quite a few enchantresses, and Reverent Works myracles on them, so I'm going back and forth with the copies of each cards I should have, and also Reverent hurts CounterBalance much more than Seeds, but yet again, Seeds hurt STAX a lot more.
4? Reverent Silence
1- Gaea's Blessing I don't want to get my beasts ridiculously milled having this card to add to my side

And that would be it, I haven't been able to include Fanatic, and I know how good they are I have them and love them, but I'm quite sure I'll be facing at least 1 enchantress this weekend.
Thx again for everything, I'm open to any complains and advice, just say anything you think thanks a lot.
By the way, judges say there will be tons of Goblins and Zoo in the GP so maybe I should think about them too, like 1 Dryad Arbor to fetch and block, or Jitte's in side. Thx to César for making a monogreen legacy famous!!!

[Otter]

Don't play Tarmo, he's horrible in this deck. One of our advantages is that in only playing Forests (which cannot end up in our graveyards unless Sinkholed), Creatures, and Insants (ignoring Rancor, since it rarely gets in the yard) is that opposing Tarmogoyfs are usually a bit small. This allows us to easily race them or beat them in combat with pump. By playing your own Goyfs and trying to make them large, you're also helping to grow opposing Goyfs. The 2-drops you should be playing in his slot are probably either Viridian Zealot or Thornweald Archer. The Archer is great in that it kills opposing Goyfs and Tombstalkers in combat on its own, but the Zealot is generally better. In a tournament with many rounds like a Grand Prix, you are going to run into Chalice decks and Counterbalance decks, both of which are very good against us. You'll be very happy if you have outs to them game one and the Zealots provide that.

Nettle Sentinel is better than Skyshroud Elite, especially if there is a lot of mono-color in Spain like you say. Nettle Sentinel's vigilance is very good against Goblins (attack and still block Lackey/Instigator) and Nettle is just overall a thousand times more consistent. The only times that Elite's third toughness matters is against Zoo, where it doesn't die to Lavamancer and can also hold off a Kird Ape. Most of the time though, anything that kills Nettle will kill Elite too. Bolt, Nacatl, Goyf, Mongoose, etc: they all do 3+ damage. Nettle also can surprise opponents who haven't played against this deck before. They swing a Goyf into your tapped Nettle, you Vines it into an untapped 6/6 and crush the Goyf. That wins games. Run a full set of Nettles before you run Elite.

As for Pit Skulk -- play four, no question. Its ability to punch through a large wall of Goblins, Merfolk, or Zombie tokens is very useful.

Agree with Tormod's over Trap.

I'm not a fan of Rushwood Legate, it's cool, but not particularly amazing. Sure it's nice to have a 2/1 for free, but not only does it get trashed by Fire/Ice against Tempo Thresh, but it also dies to a 2/3 Goyf or even an non-Threshed Mongoose. Vexing Shusher is much better, it punches through both Counterbalance and Chalice (the two scariest cards to face besides combo), while also letting you combo without worry of Force.

Might want to consider squeezing some Mindbreak Trap into the board, like -1 Seeds, -1 Silence, +2 Mindbreak. It's not a great card against combo and you'll still probably lose, but at a large tournament you are going to run into a bit of combo. Having at least a slight chance to lucksack into your traps both games to slow them down would be nice.

[Gui]

Everything otter says is true, will just add my $0.02

@Tarmogoyf, it's not that it's a bad card (actually it's probably one of the most overpowered cards in legacy right now) but in this deck, it's role is a bit different from threshold, reason for which you don't play 4 of it. It's supposed to be a big beater in a 4th~5th turn when your opponent is expecting small beaters with rancors, and then, stall their plan. Probably best goyf matchup is against Stax, where it is a 2cc creature that is easily 3/4 or 4/5, and can do the job paying 2 for ghostly prison, 1 for pendrell...

But either if you are facing a lot of staxes, or if you are facing a lot of enchantress, on both matchups you'd preffer to have Gleeful Sabotage or Viridian Zealot MD. I'd go 2 Gleeful MD instead of goyf, and cut ALL fetchlands. About the Blue that you hate, don't fear it, it's our best color-matchup by far! You will just crush them all day long! ;D

Nettle is really better than Elite due to it's untap skills. Pit-skulk is better than sprites, and i don't see myself playing monogreen version with less than 4x Nettle and 4x Skarrgan.

I don't like rushwood legate simply because blue is a good match even post-board. Side in gleeful/krosan to fight their anti-creature techs (EE, Keg, Shackles, Threads, Deed, etc...etc...etc...). I'd play something against Zoo in that spot. Maybe BotH, Troll, or even something wierd like Nourish. oO

Might of old Krosa is better than Growth in any version running 8 trollshroud, and you should play that. If there are remeaning spots for pumps, i'd go for Vastwood. But keep in mind that Seal's main priority isn't "pumping goyf +1/+1", but fixing your mana for a 2-land high damage Berserk. Vastwood and seal are opposing here: one demands mana, the other fixes it.

[hyst]

Hello community, long time reader bla bla ...

I'd like to share my results of the tournament I played yesterday in Mol, Belgium. I'm a vintage player and yesterday was my second Legacy tournament (Played merfolks in BoM3). Not knowing the field here in Belgium, I played with Berserk stompy. Great deck in an unknown meta and always a pleasure to play with.

First of all, the list:

16 Forest

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kavu Predator
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle

1 Vines of Vastwood
3 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa

SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Vines of Vastwood

Like I said, I never really played competitive Legacy before, so the sideboard is kinda weird ... but was effective for me all day long :p
I never use Krosan grips during the day, and Nature's claim was the MVP, it won me few games. Maybe a 4th Claim and only 2 Krosan would have been better, dunno.

The MD is pretty straightforward, ESG was golden for me, I dodged so many Dazes and playing Kavu or Silhana on the first turn is awesome. I'll never come back to jungle Lion or Skyshroud Elite, seriously, I loved ESG.


A brief report:

We were 65 so we played 7 rounds of swiss + top 8. I finished at 12th place with 15 points (5 people at 15, 1 spot in top8).

Round 1, I played vs Reanimator. In the first game he played a turn 2 Exhume on a Sphinx of the steel wind. GG. I sided in 3 Ravenous Trap for Nettles. The second game was even faster. Despite my ravenous, he reanimated Iona turn 2, I scooped.

Round 2 vs Elves. He had so many mana, he played a 8-times kicked Jorada warcaller on game 1 and game 2 Elvish champion ruined me.


Since I was here for fun with friends, I decided not to drop and play the 7 rounds.

Round 3, duh! I get a BYE.

Round 4 - Merfolks. Game 1 was pretty simple for me. Turn 1 Silhana with double Rancor made the job for me. Game 2 I'm mana screwed and 2 Merrow Rejerey + Lord bashed me. Game 3: Turn 1 Kavu and double Invigorate+ Berserk ftw.

Round 5 - My Friend with Pro-Bant ...so sad.
Bogle turn 1+ Rancor+Mights, GG. Game 2 Silhana, Rancor, Berserk. 'nuff said.

Round 6 - Zoo. Silhana and Bogles stole me 2 games :) (Sided in VoV, not used ^^)

Round 7 - White painter. Game 1 a Kavu with Invigorate and Berserk did the job. Game 2 I'm mana screwed, 1 land in 20 draws, and my opponent's Oblivion ring and Runed halo totally wrecks me. Game 3 I have a nice hand (ESG, 2x Forest, Kavu, Invi, 2x Berserk). My opp. played StP on my Kavu. Luckily, I topdeck another Kavu ftw.


A few thoughts:

I definitely loved ESG in the deck, it dodges Dazes and allow insane turn 1 drops. Silhana, Kavu, 1cc drop + Seal of strength is pretty huge. I don't regret the Elites nor the Jungle Lions. Seal of Strength is far better than any other +3/+3 boost and VoV are not so good, for me it's just a good SB card vs Heavy removals.dec; I never played the kick. Bogles + Silhanas are enough, no need to play another Shroud effect MD.

The manabase is fine with 16 lands, no fetches ! Sooo many Stifles here. I usually play with 17 lands, but I really wanted 4 VoV for this tournament so I cut 1 forest for 1 MD Vines.

Also, almost every game 2 and 3 I sided out 3 Nettles to play 3 Nature's claim. (The ability to destroy Bitterblossoms, Jittes, Vials, ... is an upside for the deck. And since Nettle is the less valuable critter here, 2 MD is still fine). I really think that Nature's claim could be a great card MD.

Maybe the list could look like this:

16 Forest

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kavu Predator
2 Nettle Sentinel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle

3 Nature's Claim
3 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa

Any thoughts, commentary will be great.
Thanks.

Greg

[Gui]

Nice too see you playing the deck, congrats on the results, you almost got there! Sorry about the losses on such rogues strategies for legacy... Reanimator got this potential of ruining us really, but that bring us to another fact that usually ruin us, and should be discussed: Progenitus. Not to mention that it can come with the Elves version, and be even worse!

I agree with you in the fact that this deck could use artifact removal MD. I'd play gleeful over natural, since 2 of my concerns are Chalice @1 and Counter+top (which is exactly like chalice @1), but you can always side more stuff game 2 and 3.

More people seems to be running ESG, so that i'll try it again. My previous tests with them have proven that you need to have a lot of fuel to burn Turn 2 and 3 so that it is worth playing. Maybe will try a cut to 15 Forest + 4 ESG

[hyst]

Thank you !

In fact during the playtests, I was running either Jungle Lions or Elites. I also tried Tarmo, but it's definitely too slow, I removed the dude after a few games.

I tried ESG because I playtested a lot against my friends. One is playing Bant Progenitus and the other is playing Dredge. Natural order on Progenitus by turn 3 or 4 got me plenty of game losses. Not to mention the army of Zombies from the Dredge. I really wanted to be faster to race these 2 decks. And ESG is really nice.

You don't really need *a lot* a fuel, of course you rely more on your opening seven cards than other aggro strategies, but the games I played showed me that an uncoutered trollshroud critter usually wins the game. If they can't manage your creature, a simple rancored Silhana/Bogle will win you the game.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I have been messing with ESG too, but you definitely sacrifice some consistency for the speed boost. If you use Bounty of the Hunt then ESG is even better, but in Invigorate builds I would rather be able to run Horizon Canopy. Plus if you run ESG you are probably going to run 19 mana sources instead of 18.

[Purgatory]

Hi guys, I'm new to this deck, and I thought you lads could give me some input on my list. I've been tinkering with the deck on MWS for a couple of months now, and moved from N-land stompy to Berserk Stompy gradually, and this is the list I'm currently running:

16 Forest

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Scryb Sprites

4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
2 open slots (trying Vines of Vastwood at the moment, I've also considered Giant Growth and Seal of Strength, among others)

Some reasoning behind my list:

No Goyfs: I assumed that the list I ripped off from Deckcheck was made by a poor student like myself, laughed and then sleeved up four Goyfs and some fetchlands with the rest of the creatures, but I was always disappointed with it - it is big, sure, but not that big (mine tended to be 3/4, and it was never because I played any spells). It also lacks evasion, contrary to Pit-Skulk, Scryb Sprites, Predator et al and it doesn't have trollshroud. So I cut down to two, because they were nice for fighting off opponent Goyfs, but then I just realized I raced opponent Goyfs quite simply and replaced them with Vines of Vastwood.

No Jungle Lions: I just feel that Nettle Sentinel is better, since it's a 2/2 that can actually block in a pinch. Skyshroud Elite is more situational, but then again a 2/3 most of the time. I'd actually rather run something like Ghazban Ogre (since I don't run fetchlands) in this list than Jungle Lion.

Other than that, I think my list is pretty standard and straight-forward. Maybe I could use less creatures and more pump, but I'm not sure. The reason I'm posting is that I took the deck home to my old playing group and tested it against my friends who had no previous knowledge of it at all - and it did pretty darn well. I'm thus thinking about taking it to a tournament, since I'm tired of everyone knowing exactly how my list looks after I drop Tropical -> Mongoose on turn one.

Also, my sideboard is currently up in the air, here's what I'm thinking right now:

2 Nature's Claim
2 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst

[Otter]

I don't mean this offensively, but just read the thread. It has absolutely everything you need to tweak a standard Predator/Invigorate list. At only 17 pages, it'll take you a couple of hours, but be well worth all of the information. But to give you a very brief summary:

Vines is awesome, but don't run more than two copies without 17 land.

We all agree that Goyf is mediocre at best, Jungle Lion isn't playable. Nettle is awesome.

You really want some Viridian Zealot or Gleeful Sabotage maindeck, having almost your entire maindeck be cold to a Chalice at 1 is just too dangerous.

Sprite is not terrible, evasion is nice, but when you are playing Boggle, the deck really doesn't need more freakin' 1/1s. Be prepared to lose matches to having a hand full of Boggles, Sprites, andLedgewalkers while getting raced by a lone Pridemage.

Nature's Claim is completely horrible, the two biggest enemies of the deck are Countertop and Chalice at 1, Claim fails at dealing with either of them. Gleeful Sabotage and Krosan Grip are our best two disenchant effects.

Thorn of Amethyst pretty much turns off your own Berserks, at least Mindbreak Trap is free. I'd either board Mindbreak or just abandon the combo matchup entirely.

[Purgatory]

I don't mean this offensively, but just read the thread. It has absolutely everything you need to tweak a standard Predator/Invigorate list. At only 17 pages, it'll take you a couple of hours, but be well worth all of the information. But to give you a very brief summary:

Vines is awesome, but don't run more than two copies without 17 land.

We all agree that Goyf is mediocre at best, Jungle Lion isn't playable. Nettle is awesome.

You really want some Viridian Zealot or Gleeful Sabotage maindeck, having almost your entire maindeck be cold to a Chalice at 1 is just too dangerous.

Sprite is not terrible, evasion is nice, but when you are playing Boggle, the deck really doesn't need more freakin' 1/1s. Be prepared to lose matches to having a hand full of Boggles, Sprites, andLedgewalkers while getting raced by a lone Pridemage.

Nature's Claim is completely horrible, the two biggest enemies of the deck are Countertop and Chalice at 1, Claim fails at dealing with either of them. Gleeful Sabotage and Krosan Grip are our best two disenchant effects.

Thorn of Amethyst pretty much turns off your own Berserks, at least Mindbreak Trap is free. I'd either board Mindbreak or just abandon the combo matchup entirely.

Maindeck Zealots seems nicer than Gleeful Sabotage, since it's at least a creature if nothing else.

The reason for Thorn over Mindbreak Trap is that while Mindbreak Trap is indeed free, against storm combo I find mylsef getting Duress'd so many times, it's not even funny. I'll consider it however.

Thanks for your input.

[NihilObstat]

Hi there once again!!

So this Saturday is the big day for Legacy in Spain, and I'm almost there at what my final list will be. I'll post it real quick:

4x Nettle
4x Boggle
4x Silhanna
4x Skargan
4x Kavu
3x Viridian I am missing the 2x Tarmo sometimes, but overall a far better card

4x MooK
4x Invigorate
4x Rancor
4x Berserk
2x Seal
2x Vines I'm really not liking her so much...... great against Zoo, but that's about it.

16x Forest
1x Windsweapt Heath Just a fetch I'm fond of, I hope it doesn't ruin me a game against Stiffly

Sideboard

4x Tormod's
4x Seeds
3x Reverent Silence
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Gaea's Blessing
1x Last Stop which could be: Gleeful sabotage(but I dont *** have one XD) / another Mindbreak /Naturalize/ Winter Orb/ ?ideas

Just one last think, would anyone recommend me taking one Nettle or other out to put a Tarmo back? Against Zoo or so, but no even since their Tarmo has Qasali...
Thanks a lot for everything, keep the deck going guys !!!! ;)

[Pltnmngl]

I know nothing will replace Berserk (I'm haggling with some people as we speak...), but what can I use in place of it when I don't have access to them? I have everything else.

[umbowta]

nothing will replace Berserk .

Nuff said really. If you can't get them, proxy them.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I would say if you don't have Berserks, play Giant Growth instead, and play this deck for casual...
(It's a funny casual deck... I played it also without Berserks, before FtV:E came out, but Berserks REALLY speed that deck up)

I tweaked my list a bit, too... I really don't like the Scryb Sprites... but I also dislike Skyshroud Elite, Goyf, any other beater that fits in here... so I decided to go more for tempo and play 4 ESG again. I also think I should play a bit a minimum of 2 Naturalize-Effects in the main, but is 2 enough? My list is floating around like this right now:

4 Bogle
4 Nettle
4 Skulk
4 Kavu
4 Ledgewalker

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might

4 ESG
15 SC-Forest

5 Slots [which will end up in a 3/2 split of Seal, VoV and Sabotage, but I don't know which 2 and what should be the right number, what do you guys think???]

////

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Seeds of Innocence
1-2 Gleeful Sabotage (depends on the mainslots of Gleeful Sabotage)
2-3 Reverent Silence (depends on the mainslots of Gleeful Sabotage)
3 Tormod's Crypt

I just threw away the Combo-MU because it's awful, no matter how you look at it... I don't think you can lucksack with Trap, because Comboplayers can a) Chant you, and b) good Comboplayers are Duressing you because they're afraid of Berserk so they will see your Trap =(


YawG

[Otter]

Maindeck Zealots seems nicer than Gleeful Sabotage, since it's at least a creature if nothing else.

The reason for Thorn over Mindbreak Trap is that while Mindbreak Trap is indeed free, against storm combo I find mylsef getting Duress'd so many times, it's not even funny. I'll consider it however.

Thanks for your input.

I prefer Zealot as well, the deck needs consistency and having a 2/1 body attached to my possible Naturalizes is just nice. Also, I hate to keep dragging out a discussion about the nearly-unwinnable combo matchup, but it's relevant whether you're expecting ANT, Belcher, or a mix of both. Thorn might work out okay for you if you are expecting mostly ANT (assuming they don't have T1 Duress and you have a second land drop) but it's far too slow against Belcher. You can easily be staring down ten goblins before you cast it.


Hi there once again!!

So this Saturday is the big day for Legacy in Spain, and I'm almost there at what my final list will be. I'll post it real quick:

4x Nettle
4x Boggle
4x Silhanna
4x Skargan
4x Kavu
3x Viridian I am missing the 2x Tarmo sometimes, but overall a far better card

4x MooK
4x Invigorate
4x Rancor
4x Berserk
2x Seal
2x Vines I'm really not liking her so much...... great against Zoo, but that's about it.

16x Forest
1x Windsweapt Heath Just a fetch I'm fond of, I hope it doesn't ruin me a game against Stiffly

Sideboard

4x Tormod's
4x Seeds
3x Reverent Silence
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Gaea's Blessing
1x Last Stop which could be: Gleeful sabotage(but I dont *** have one XD) / another Mindbreak /Naturalize/ Winter Orb/ ?ideas

Just one last think, would anyone recommend me taking one Nettle or other out to put a Tarmo back? Against Zoo or so, but no even since their Tarmo has Qasali...
Thanks a lot for everything, keep the deck going guys !!!! ;)

Play the max of Nettles, they're just good. If you want to slip in one copy of Tarmo, use the Vines/Seal slot for it, I think. As for your last SB slot, I'd just go with a Mindbreak, you're going to face a combo deck if you do well.


I know nothing will replace Berserk (I'm haggling with some people as we speak...), but what can I use in place of it when I don't have access to them? I have everything else.

I agree with Yawg Will, the next best pump spell is Giant Growth. You'll find that your Tempo Thresh and Merfolk matches are still good, but your Zoo, Goblin, and combo matchups will suffer considerably from the lack of 'zerk. Other matchups will be worse as well (obviously no benefit to losing your turn 2/3 kills), but not by as much as Zoo/Gob/Combo.

[Gui]

I know nothing will replace Berserk (I'm haggling with some people as we speak...), but what can I use in place of it when I don't have access to them? I have everything else.

The deck should be a lot different when not running berserks. First of all, the reason why we run so much pump spells that can be 2-to-1'd is that you will eventually use them go win faster than predicted. Without berserk, i believe the deck is a pure aggro deck willing to kill with a swarm and use pumps only to deal with big guys and eventually go for a killing blow.

I'd play a full set o VOV and a full set of Growths, and pitch Might of Old Krosa, because they are better suited for combat situations. I'd play 16 pumps only (Rancor, Invigorate, Growth, VoV). Goyf would be great here since you are more likely to go mid or late game, and If you play stuff like fetchlands or Land Grant, he can get 3/4 easier.

Well, when I played Stompy list without berserks, I used to fill-in a full set of Wastelands, and play 20 Lands. That has just proven to be good enough to delay their strategies in land flooded hands, since I usually never needed the third land to a combo (I often didn't need the second land either). Another good card when going no-berserk is Rogue Elephant. You can easily play 2 of it without feeling mana issues, and when it comes turn 1, with turn 2 rancor, it's a house.

But as it was said, Some matchups will decrease a lot, since your best shots against some of them is berserk. But I do believe you can get good results even on a tourney with that. I mean, less berserk means more consistancy against Threshold, which is like the most played deck in the format. And with VoV you can prabably still get 40% of the winning against Zoo. Goblin probably isn't that much harder without berserk, as long as you can swarm more creatures than the zerk version. Vine Dryad could help with that. Oh, and seriously play 3 Naturalize-like cards maindeck.

@ the other topics:

Thorns of Amethyst - If you are playing ESGs, you got a good chance of winning the second match against combo... If not, i'd play something else at sideboard. Probably Mindbreak, and wish for the best. Don't forget to try to rush ANT to low life amount, so that AN doesn't work that great...

Naturalize-effects - 2 is enough only if you want just to break something to get the winning on a mid-late game, without sacrificing consistancy (Even Zealot isn't consistant, since it's less powerful than our options @2cc creatures). Zealots are good Naturalize effects, but they are way slower, and we shouldn't forget about it ever, since they don't replace a grip or a gleeful the same way. Even though, it seems a great to increase our Stax matchup without decreasing all the others...We probably can afford 3 maindeck, that would be as much as I would play, probably with 1 or 2 Gleeful/Krosan/Naturalize SB. If you go Gleeful instead, then probably go just 2, and hope for better games postboard. (That's what I'm currently doing)

Vastwoods - Well, if you don't like them MD, go +2 seal instead ^^

[Purgatory]

So if I do want to play Throns in my side, how can I fit ESG in my deck? -4 Forest? Would 12 Forest, 4 ESG be as horrible as it looks on paper?

[Gui]

So if I do want to play Throns in my side, how can I fit ESG in my deck? -4 Forest? Would 12 Forest, 4 ESG be as horrible as it looks on paper?

Probably! The least I would play is 14 Lands and 4 ESG, and with more consistancy, 15~16 lands and 4 ESG

EDIT: You kind of could cut Scryb or 2x Elite for the ESG, and play 14 + 4... if you have time to playtest that, you can check for it's consistancy...
I'd play no less than 18 growths, and the 2 VoV slots would be jeopardized by the lack of forests, so I'd play -2 VoV +2 Seal

[NecroYawgmoth]

I don't like Zealots in the main...

I played them in the past for the reason that he can Naturalize AND beat otherwise...

But I don't like him, and cutted him because he does nothing against an active Jitte...

If Jitte gets active, and we can't destroy it NOW with our solutions, we'll lose...

...and the chances of having always 4 mana and a Zealot are to minimal :frown:


YawG

[Gui]

I don't like Zealots in the main...

I played them in the past for the reason that he can Naturalize AND beat otherwise...

But I don't like him, and cutted him because he does nothing against an active Jitte...

If Jitte gets active, and we can't destroy it NOW with our solutions, we'll lose...

...and the chances of having always 4 mana and a Zealot are to minimal :frown:


YawG

Yeah, couldn't agree more. That's why I run 2x Gleeful.

[Purgatory]

If the list includes Goyf, maybe Seal of Primordium would be nice? Two of those and three Seal of Strength means five enchantments, after all, which is nice when pumping Goyfs.

[Gui]

If the list includes Goyf, maybe Seal of Primordium would be nice? Two of those and three Seal of Strength means five enchantments, after all, which is nice when pumping Goyfs.

Could be, although Gleeful is probably better and you don't have a sorcery source too... but primordium can do the job

[Purgatory]

Could be, although Gleeful is probably better and you don't have a sorcery source too... but primordium can do the job

I just get the sense that Sorceries are a lot more common than Enchantments in Legacy, and Seal of Primordium can sacrifice to itself in a pinch, while Gleeful remains a dead card in your hand if you lack targets (bar your own Seal of Strength I suppose). It's likely the opponent will have Sorceries in the yard, at least more likely than them having Enchantments.

[Gui]

I just get the sense that Sorceries are a lot more common than Enchantments in Legacy, and Seal of Primordium can sacrifice to itself in a pinch, while Gleeful remains a dead card in your hand if you lack targets (bar your own Seal of Strength I suppose). It's likely the opponent will have Sorceries in the yard, at least more likely than them having Enchantments.

Yet, Gleeful is better in any other situation where you are not trying to pump your goyf (besides previously played seal against Landstill/Merfolks), and there are a few decks that don't have sorceries where you can get better use of it. I don't think the advantage of pumping goyf +1/+1 is better than going through Chalice@2/CounterTop or multicasting, but maybe that's just me...

On a not that important sidenote, Seal can get Stiffle'd (I think it hardly will be)

[NihilObstat]

Hi there everyone !!!

Really quick question! I'd llike some answers as soon as you can, thanks !!!


Has anyone tested a 2/2 split of 2 Tormod's Crypt and 2 Ground Seal against Ichorid.
Since almost no one is expecting Ground Seal from anyone who isn't playing Enchantress, or even 4x Ground Seal

Thanks a lot, and just one more think. Has anyone tested it ?? I mean it draws you a card, like Relic, but it stays in the game.

[Gui]

Hi there everyone !!!

Really quick question! I'd llike some answers as soon as you can, thanks !!!


Has anyone tested a 2/2 split of 2 Tormod's Crypt and 2 Ground Seal against Ichorid.
Since almost no one is expecting Ground Seal from anyone who isn't playing Enchantress, or even 4x Ground Seal

Thanks a lot, and just one more think. Has anyone tested it ?? I mean it draws you a card, like Relic, but it stays in the game.

I didn't follow, that doesn't seems to hate Ichorid as Tormods or Relics do... maybe I'm missing something, but ichorid can still come back, can't it? Golgari will come back too, and bridges will be on the grave, the combo will flow...

I just side-in tormods against Ichorid, and if I need and have the chance, I berserk some guy to get the bridge out of the grave... well... I haven't tested much against Ichorid though...

[NihilObstat]

It's not the same hate, but it gives you an extra turn if they were planning in resurecting their Berserker and it saves you the game if they were going to play Iona. And Golgari, I have only seen Dredge play him with Return in desesperate situations.

Dunno, but maybe you are right. Thx a lot for the berserking a guy to remove the enchantment tip, hehe, I never think of fun stuff like that ^^

[MasterC]

What do you guys think about Mindbreak Trap as a Sideboard Card (3x-4x) against ANT/TES?
Especially the fact that Berserk Stompy has a Turn 3 clock (or at least can beat the Tendrils opponent down to Ad Nauseam- hindering lifescore) makes it look pretty good in my eyes.

-they definitely will not see it coming game 2
-It's for free, so it doesn't affect our speed
-To handle it, they either need a Duress (which would eat our berserk otherwise) or one additional white mana source for chanting during their combo turn (which isn't that easy to accomplish for them in the first three turns)

Combined with Crypts against their IGG recursion, the matchup might not be that bad anymore.

[AlterEgo]

-they definitely will not see it coming game 2


I'm not playing ANT, but IF I did, I'd always anticipate Mindbreak Traps - from anyone.
That's because I do play them myself and as I've only played aggro so far, no matter which deck (well, except for Dragon Stompy)

So play them, but don't count on the ANT-Player to be surprised.

[MasterC]

I doubt that there are many decks besides Berserk Stompy which would profit from playing Mindbreak Trap.

Bluebased Aggrocontrol has access to more versatile and less situational hate (Force, Daze, Stifle)
Chalice Aggro has Chalice and Trini and needs it's Sideboard to improve other critical matchups
Loam can't apply enough pressure, so that the ANT player can dig for chants or duresses
Ichorid needs its Sideboard for different issues

The only decks I see that can profit from Mindbreak Trap are BS, Zoo and maybe Goblins and Elves.

[Gui]

I doubt that there are many decks besides Berserk Stompy which would profit from playing Mindbreak Trap.

Bluebased Aggrocontrol has access to more versatile and less situational hate (Force, Daze, Stifle)
Chalice Aggro has Chalice and Trini and needs it's Sideboard to improve other critical matchups
Loam can't apply enough pressure, so that the ANT player can dig for chants or duresses
Ichorid needs its Sideboard for different issues

The only decks I see that can profit from Mindbreak Trap are BS, Zoo and maybe Goblins and Elves.

That would be true if it wasn't for the fact that you will only use it game two, and they know that you don't have much other options. This combined to the fact that their answer for it is the same as for the other hates.... But mindbreak trap seems our best option anyways.


Well guys, I guess the Results on GP-Madrid is bad news for us: Not only ANT made 2 top8's, but also reanimator made it to the top... Reanimator is a hell against us, they find a Big Guy the solves everything to them and we don't have a way to deal with them, besides maybe a berserk-rush before their entomb-exhume-reanimate hits, which will not happen that often... Besides that, Zoo is still strong and we need to get something effective against them...

[NihilObstat]

Hi there!!! It's me again. I'll tell you a little about my own experience in GP Madrid with Stompy !!!
*I've put in italics what I believe people could just read over, if they don't want the whole thing

So first of all, I have to say that it was my first GP and I was a bit nervous.
My results were 3wins - 4 loses but read a bit plz if you want.

1st game - against Monoblack deck
I go first: Forest - Nettle, he says Oh elves!! He goes swamp/lotus petal and Bitterblossom. Next turn, City of Traitors, tap and tap swamp to play CONTAMINATION! I scoop.
Side in 3 Reverent Silence 1 Gleeful, I win easy the two next games, break through everything with destroy enchant effects.
Main deck Viridian Zealots win me the game.

2nd game - Dark Depths.
A guy who wears "cool" black glasses, says he's gonna win before starting, and has a friend by his side all the time, and pointlessly says that french people are gay. He goes first, 2nd or 3rd turn Depths kill me.
I side in Vexings, Reverent, Gleeful. I keep a hand with 2 Kavu 2 Invigorate 1 Berserk 1 Forest 1 Nettle, only one land, but an awesome hand. Well, I didn't draw land in 5 turns, he's down to 15, Depths come in, I hit for 23 one turn too late, he blocks, goes down to 12 and I die.
Playing G/W Berserk Stompy would have been great here, to get Swords or Path, for MonoG has nothing against Depths. I also hated loosing to this guy, the only idiot I found in the tournament, specially due to mana screw.

3rd game - Painters Deck.
I go first and fast, he keeps a hand full of stiffles which he shows me later, and are worthless. I was so happy for having gone with 16 Forests 1 Fetch, for fun, to the GP. I side in 3 Vexing 1 Gaeas Blessing and Seeds. Once again, I go fast, and 2nd turn Vexing just rocks, he plays 2 artifacts, I go Seeds, and kill him in 2 turns.
He couldn't play counterspells thx to awesome Vexing. I recommend 3 or 4 if you fear blue in your area.

4th game - EvaGreen.
The guy is fun, but I am a bit nervous I don't know why. When going to shuffle, I show the bottom card of the deck, Boggle, which he doesn't recognize, but then I accidentally drop a Berserk. Yeah, hurray! He looks at his hand, and mulligans to get some more Destroy effects. He kills many creatures but I get him down to 7, but Tombstalker is game for him.
I side in 2 Tormod's 2 Relics, draw a hand with 1 Tormods 1 Relic, and nice hand so it's sweet. I control the game so I'm excited, I play Kavu turn 2, he's at 19, I attack with Berserked Kavu for 16, and at the same moment I cast Berserk, I go ¡SHIT! He's gonna die now. I didn't think about it because 99% of the times I had resolved Berserk it was game over. So he's at 3 life. He takes control of the board with Tarmos, and although his graveyard is clean, he taps 8 lands, and plays Tombstalker from the hand. I am really ashamed of myself here, but not afraid to admit it.

5th game - AggroLoam
The guys recognizes the deck 1st turn, and says he plays it too. But that's fine so far, thx to my hand, I kill him turn three.
I side Tormods and Relic. A rancored Skarrgan and a Nettle get him down to 1 life, then Devastating Dreams destroy me, and I can't recover in time. I die. Next game, it's pretty much the same, he tutors Devastating Dreams, I get him down to 4 life, then Devastating ruins my mana, my critters and my day, since he is the 3rd guy I loose to, and that means I'm out.

I need some advice here, for future matches, what is your strategy against this kind of decks. Maybe it's just speed, because I'm so sad that I left him at 1 and 4 life, I could have probably scratched at least that 1 life somehow.

6th game - Pro Bant Progenitus
I get a game loss, because I'm late to the seat.
Then I take the deck out, and maybe he sees something because he asks me if we can side in. I say yes, but he is a nice guy and doesn't. Rox War monks and don't know what else get him up to 28, but I get him back down before progenitus hits the floor.
He starts the 3rd game, with a sided turn 2 Ethersworm canonist, and I go turn 2 Vexing susher, so we are tied at annoying sideboard ^^
He goes Path to exile to my Susher, but also has to block with canonist after some single drop turns thx to her, and sacrifice her, I use twice Seeds in this match, which are great killing Top and others not letting him get to Natural Order. I kill him afterwards. Fun match, and I end up winning even with a GL.

7th game - Dredge
He wins the first game kick enough. I side in 2 Tormods 2 Relic, they don't come up, I go mulligan to get them but nothing. Luckily I don't need them, after a race, and a well played game I win thx to topdeck. He had casted Cabal Therapy to discard me a Berserk and another pumper, a couple turns before, and now I had only a 2/2 Skarrgan, and a new Berserk in hand, he had 10 Zombies, 2 Narcomebas luckyly no dread return in graveyard. He's at 12 life, and I tell him it all depends in what I draw now. I draw Vines of Vastwood !!! :) I know the guy, and I tell him: I win this one. I go Vines and Berserk, on Skargan and swing, he's 12/6. He looks at me like :S :S and blocks with some zombies, and I say you can't block, he goes :S again, and reads Skarrgan. So he's at 0 life. I love that little guy so much ^^
Third game I also don't get any of the sideboard, not even after mulligan, so I keep a nice 6 card hand, he goes down to 7 pretty kick, but it isn't enough. I loose.


The 2229 assistants tournament had started 3 hours late, and I was really tired after that so I left. I saw 3 more Berserks like mine that day. One almost like mine, although without Viridian main, and plus Lions. Another with Bounty and ESG, did a little worse, and there was also the False Cure one around, which did around that too. I heard there was one that did well, but I've checked day 2 lists and I couldn't find any.

The tournament was great, and I know that if it hadn't been my first big tournament, I would have done better, so I'm really happy with the deck. I am really mad that I lost games leaving the opponent at 7, 3, 1, 4, 7 life, specially against Loam.

I am really happy with my choice of Sideboard, I used it every game. What I used was the following: 3 Vexing Susher 3 Reverent Silence 3 Seeds of Innoncence 2 Tormods 2 Relics 1 Gaea's Blessing 1 Gleeful Sabotage 3 main deck Viridian Zealot, great choice for me
I couldn't fit Mindbreak Traps, and I would have liked to, although looking at my pairings they would have been wasted spots.

[Gui]

Well, sad that you got those losses against depts... Last time I saw depths (when it shown up first time, probably), I still had Wastelands (I'm always retrying to run wastelands since it's randomly good enough against a lot of decks...) and those won me the games... See, I'm serious when I say that Wastelands wins random games! xD

Everyone misses sometimes due to nervosism, specially GP I guess, although the most important thing when playing this deck is doing the Life total math correctly! xD EvaGreen isn't suposed to be a badmatch, they are slower beatdown then us, their removal cost them life... As a Tip, they tend to defend with their Tombstalker/goyf when it's untaped, so use it to pump-kill him.

Well, Speed is crutial against aggro-loam, although maybe you could hold some cards in hand against his devastating, but it depends on the match... get in mind that 1 life is the difference between growth and krosa, and also between vastwood and seal, an bogle vs. nettle/elite or even skarrgan vs. bloodthisrt'd skarrgan... It's the hard part of optimizing deck damage... But it could only be bad luck too.

Seeds killing top is so wierd! Think i'll never get the chance... a normal player would activate it. Actually the hole description of this match is wierd, how did you prevent him from playing natural order? Well, the good thing is that you won! =)

Best skills on this deck are predicting and math skills. Mostly because you have to predict which strategy brings more damage to the board, which strategy will be less probable to fail, what could be their answers to your plays... I won games by avoiding Dazes, Wraths and E.E. with simple waiting. Sometimes playing another creature makes no difference in the amount of turns you will win, but can be your misery against a powder keg. Sometimes, playing a 1cc and a 2cc to avoid EE and Keg works too. Those are simple things that we can improve and make the difference quite ofetn... Even knowing that "my chances on drawing a pump and win with this strategy are ...%" can make the difference ^^'

[NihilObstat]

You are right, it is quite weird. I hadn't tested much against Divining Top decks, and already being in the tournament against the Painters deck I remember myself thinking, well now I kill top with this, but then, wait I can't.
I ended up destroy top in response to they activating the ability once or twice. I remember asking a judge how would it work, and he said he draws the card, because the ability triggers, but since you have destroyed it there is no Top to put on top of the library. I think that's what I did, in response to they drawing with top.
And I am sorry if the description is weird, but I'm not a native english speaker and my english is quite out of practice :P

I played bad against Depths and Eva. I should have probably done a mulligan, but 2 Kavu 2 Invigorate 1 Berserk is way Too tempting, hehe.
And against Eva, I should have waited one more turn, to get an extra land down, and completely killed him.

[MasterC]

Nice report.

I'm a bit suspicious if its the right strategy to bring in GY hate against Aggro Loam.
Because when he gets to use loam, you should have lost or won already.

There aren't too much things that an Aggro Loam Player can do against Berserk Stompy, especially Bogle and Ledgewalker.
I would try to drop no more than one creature and two lands. Then try to kill him with two strikes. If he DD's, you can still come back with an evasive creature + rancor and finish him off.
He doesn't have the clock to race you without massive devastating dreams rape.

I think Loam Decks (Lands as well) should be our best Matchups.

[Otter]

Nice report.

I'm a bit suspicious if its the right strategy to bring in GY hate against Aggro Loam.
Because when he gets to use loam, you should have lost or won already.

There aren't too much things that an Aggro Loam Player can do against Berserk Stompy, especially Bogle and Ledgewalker.
I would try to drop no more than one creature and two lands. Then try to kill him with two strikes. If he DD's, you can still come back with an evasive creature + rancor and finish him off.
He doesn't have the clock to race you without massive devastating dreams rape.

I think Loam Decks (Lands as well) should be our best Matchups.

Agreed on all points. I would not bring in GY hate. Also worth mentioning that pump in response to DD can be a blowout.

[Gui]

Agreed on all points. I would not bring in GY hate. Also worth mentioning that pump in response to DD can be a blowout.

Yep, indeed pump is a nice response to DD too..

But I'd bring my 3 tormods against loam anyway, it may delay their big guy chances, and I think some control decks are better matchups than lands/loam, specially those with lots of creature hates, and those with Chalices

[Gui]

I'm not getting the best results with ESG. I'll be cutting it to 3 and increasing the creature count, and playing only 18 pumps to see how it goes, but so far, it's benefits hardly are better then running standard 17 Forests maindeck... Going to 15 Forest + 3 ESG right now

[NihilObstat]

Hi !!! I'm not replying to anyone in specific, because it's a thanks to everyone for advice and reading ;)

I think that GY hate is sweet, because you disrupt their main recovering effect of Life from the Loam quite a bit, and make them think twice wether to use DD when they wanted to or 1 turn later, which should be enough.

Thx for saying about keeping things in hand, I think I did anyway, but both games I didn't draw into more than 2 lands and he blew up both, both games.

I have to agree with Gui Brasil, control decks in general are far better, I'm specially getting quite confident against blue decks. STAX with Trini sucks, but that's why side is there for. Glacial Chasm on the other hand or Maze of Ith can be real problems.

Just one more think. I was seriously feeling like putting more Pumps in and taking at least 1 or 2 critters out, the problem is, which ones??? My list is the one from last page I think, except for side. Maybe this is just because I didn't get to play against Zoo or Crazy Removal decks, but against those we have 8 cards, and Vines, and against the rest, more pumps could definitely win us some games, don't you think ?
What do you guys mean by Pump in Response to DD? I just don't get it, sorry ^^

Oh, I've checked up my position I ended up 499 out of 1100, because we were divided in two, but I didn't play the last two games :P

[NecroYawgmoth]

@Gui_Brasil

...what exactly is the problem with an 15/4 configuration auf Forest/ESG...

If I'd run 15/3, instead of 15/4, I need to fill the space with an random Creature as a 1 off...

That doesn't sound any better than 4 ESG to me...


YawG

[Gui]

@Gui_Brasil

...what exactly is the problem with an 15/4 configuration auf Forest/ESG...

If I'd run 15/3, instead of 15/4, I need to fill the space with an random Creature as a 1 off...

That doesn't sound any better than 4 ESG to me...


YawG

That would be the lack of random creatures to make ESG worthy
I don't have the illusion that the difference will be huge though... but i'm also cutting from 19 to 18 pumps to add another creature, so...

[MasterC]

@Nihilobstat

I didn't have Chasm in Mind, you're right. But Maze shouldn't be a problem because we play 8 untargettable creatures.
Against Lands again, I would board crypts, as this would nuke their chasm lock.

Pump in response means:

You have a nice tiny 2/2 Kavu Predator in play and your opponent has bwished for dd the turn before, and he will play it his next turn.
You don't use the invigorate in your hand to pump your predator, but play something else and tap yourself out.

The opponent who doesn't know your deck in his turn casts dd for 2, to destroy your predator and all your land.
In response you play invigorate, and have a 5/5 trample in play, while you opponent has cleared two of his lands.

[Kilz88]

This is what I play at my weekly legacy tournament. I like the deck but I feel it is quite luck based like ichorid.

Creatures:

4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Kavu Predator
4x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4x Slippery Bogle
4x Skyshroud Elite
3x Nettle Sentinal
2x Scryb Sprites

Boost:

4x Invigorate
4x Rancor
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Berserk
2x Seal of Strength

Utility Lands:

3x Horizon Canopy
1x Pendelhaven

Basics:

13x Forest

Ok, a few things about the main deck. I would really like to fit Viridian Zealot in the main somewhere. Clearly the weakest creatures here are Nettle Sentinal and Scryb Sprites. I probably only want 2 zealots. Also, I don't play fetches because I don't want to be stifled. Lastly, I feel like my hands are creature heavy sometimes. Should I add more boost? If so, is it a third seal? What could I add?

Sideboard:

4x Vexing Shusher
4x Rushwood Legate

Those I feel are auto ins. Maybe not legate but in my experiance, she is incredible. Right now I am having some issues with the rest of the board because I am testing something new. I am thinking maybe the shusher can come down to 3 to make room but I don't know.

2x Seeds of Innocence
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Nature's Claim

Alright, so I know there should be more graveyard hate. Also, I feel like the decks where an enchantment is causing me problems, it is usually only one. I don't expect to play against bitterblossom/contamination regularly. ^^^^^^ Haha. But Reverent Silence might still be better. Nature's Claim just looks so good.

Lemme know what you guys think. I will probably play this at the SCG Open: Indy so I need to finalize it. Thanks!!

[Gui]

I'd cut nature's claim to Gleeful Sabotage. Even Naturalize is better, because Claim can't avoid chalice or CB+Top ever.

If you wanna fit zealot, I'd start with Scryb. Scryb is great, and gets better with pendelhaven, but it's your weakest creature. Well, I like Nettle enough to play 4 of it, but yes, it would be the next along with Elite, one or the other, personal choice. I'd run 4 Nettle, and then X Zealots and Y Elites, X+Y=5.
I'd never cut to less than 18 pumps, I like the 19th to be Seal, but I don't feel that you got the room, so I'd go 18 pumps. It is tough enough, specially with seals and horizon.

Besides that, you got a straight forward list... I'd just cut Legate to something worthy against Zoo... Vastwoods?

After GP-Madrid, you may fear reanimator enough to use 4 tormods sideboard... I like tormods in a lot of matchups already, but against reanimator it's kind of our only hope, and then rush them before Showl and Tell. But it highly depends on how you think your meta will be. (Dunno if they are somewhat more popular, it's certainlly a consistant deck)

Sorry, but I don't have anyone to playtest an ANT against to see how effective is our rush against them. I certainly know that they don't need the IGG recursion, so tormod is kind of useless. But then, maybe you don't fear ANT having tons of showings...

[DrJones]

Hi! Against reanimator you might want to use Faerie Macabre instead, because cannot be countered and can be played turn 0. It was what I was going to use in my False Cure Stompy deck for the GP until I switched them at the last minute for Pithing Needle (I was expecting to see more survival-iona decks than reanimator)

[umbowta]

This is what I play at my weekly legacy tournament. I like the deck but I feel it is quite luck based like ichorid.

Creatures:

4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Kavu Predator
4x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4x Slippery Bogle
4x Skyshroud Elite
3x Nettle Sentinal
2x Scryb Sprites

Boost:

4x Invigorate
4x Rancor
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Berserk
2x Seal of Strength

Utility Lands:

3x Horizon Canopy
1x Pendelhaven

Basics:

13x Forest

Ok, a few things about the main deck. I would really like to fit Viridian Zealot in the main somewhere. Clearly the weakest creatures here are Nettle Sentinal and Scryb Sprites. I probably only want 2 zealots. Also, I don't play fetches because I don't want to be stifled. Lastly, I feel like my hands are creature heavy sometimes. Should I add more boost? If so, is it a third seal? What could I add?

Sideboard:

4x Vexing Shusher
4x Rushwood Legate

Those I feel are auto ins. Maybe not legate but in my experiance, she is incredible. Right now I am having some issues with the rest of the board because I am testing something new. I am thinking maybe the shusher can come down to 3 to make room but I don't know.

2x Seeds of Innocence
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Nature's Claim

Alright, so I know there should be more graveyard hate. Also, I feel like the decks where an enchantment is causing me problems, it is usually only one. I don't expect to play against bitterblossom/contamination regularly. ^^^^^^ Haha. But Reverent Silence might still be better. Nature's Claim just looks so good.

Lemme know what you guys think. I will probably play this at the SCG Open: Indy so I need to finalize it. Thanks!!Nice to see you're playing the deck, KC. It's sooo much fun and, yes, it's a little luck dependent at times.

I see you've chosen to include a Pendelhaven as a one-of. I've tested quite a bit with both 1 and two copies in the main and I have to agree that one is the right number. Twice I've been unable to make a land drop because Pendelhaven is Legendary while running two and that just can't happen.

Now, Viridian Shaman in the main is all fine and good but I don't agree with Gui-Brasil about cutting the two Scryb Sprites. I'd pull a Bogle and a Sentinel. Evasion wins games. You have too many one drops anyway. Go for 14, 15 at the most, and then 10-11 two drops.

About cutting down to 3 Shushers, I just cant say. The way you have your board set up, i.e., no Krosan Grip, makes playing against Counterbalance a little more difficult so more Shushers is better. But you've also elected to keep Legate in the mix which should help by allowing you to play around both Daze and Counterbalance more easily. I guess it really depends on what you're trying to fit in the board. Wanna tell us what it is?

[Gui]

Now, Viridian Shaman in the main is all fine and good but I don't agree with Gui-Brasil about cutting the two Scryb Sprites. I'd pull a Bogle and a Sentinel. Evasion wins games. You have too many one drops anyway. Go for 14, 15 at the most, and then 10-11 two drops.

Well, actually it's situational, both evasion, trollshroud and being a 2/x for :g: wins games... the difference is that you will have more options of stuffs that wins games if you run scryb over bogle/nettle, and you always have some chance of drawing the right option for that time...

More important than that is to have enough creature to build the initial pressure so that the plan doesn't fail for 1~2 life points in the end... I aggre that 14~15 is like an "at least" for 1cc, or else you'll be lacking initial power... since you want to run Viridian Zealot, 10~11 should be the right number for 2cc too (2~3 Zealots). So yes, umbowta is pretty much right. ^^

Even though the deck is dependant, there are always skills that can make the difference. If you go plain "drop and attack" you may get disapointed. :wink:


I guess it really depends on what you're trying to fit in the board. Wanna tell us what it is?
So, wanna? =P

[MasterC]

Faerie Macabre seems to be perfect against Reanimator and Loam.
The problem I see is that it doesnt do anything against Ichorid.
And Ichorid is still played way more often than the two other decks.

Also, I don't really like Pendelhaven. It's a nice card, but giving +1 power (or 2 with berserk) at cost of 1 mana AND giving your opponent Wasteland targets definitely isn't worth it.

[Gui]

Faerie Macabre seems to be perfect against Reanimator and Loam.
The problem I see is that it doesnt do anything against Ichorid.
And Ichorid is still played way more often than the two other decks.

Also, I don't really like Pendelhaven. It's a nice card, but giving +1 power (or 2 with berserk) at cost of 1 mana AND giving your opponent Wasteland targets definitely isn't worth it.

As far as i know, it exiles Bridges from Below and Ichorids, no?

[Kilz88]

First off, I think bridge says if your creature goes to grave from play. But macabre might be ok. I like that they don't see it coming so they wont dig up their show and tell. But they also can thoughtseize it out of your hand.

For the main I think I wanna cut the nettles altogether. I have had dumb situations where I don't have another guy and I don't wanna go off yet, so he doesnt untap. :( Also, because I have elected to use pendallhaven, the sprites are nice. But I only want 2 Zealots. So do I leave 1 nettle? Make it a third sprite? Cut it for the 3rd seal? What do? Haha.

Lastly for the board, I have tried grip and it is just TOO much mana. I am not familiar with sabotage. I think it costs 1G which is ok. But like Umbowta said, legate is good cause it costs 3 (for counterbalance) and gets around daze. Unfortunatly it gets fire//ice'd but that is one more removal spell out of his hand on a guy I spent no mana on. To summerize, I wanna keep the 4 legates and keep at least 3 shushers. After that I want a good way to stop reanimator, chalice, and moat/ghostly prison like enchantments. Obviously 2 of those problems are improved by zealot but how much is "enough"?

[umbowta]

I wanna keep the 4 legates and keep at least 3 shushers. After that I want a good way to stop reanimator, chalice, and moat/ghostly prison like enchantments. Obviously 2 of those problems are improved by zealot but how much is "enough"?

Wow. You don't ask much do you. Honestly, I don't know of enough hate to put in the board of this deck to "stop reanimator". Sure there's Relic and Crypt, maybe even Ground Seal. The simple fact of the matter is that Iona pwns your face. Hard. You clearly want some kind of yard hate because it's versatile enough to help out against more than just Reanimator. After that your artifact/enchantment removal options are bountiful in green.

I'm worried about Natures Claim simply because of it's :g: casting cost. This means you'll need a Shusher on board if you plan on hitting a Chalice which will most likely be set at :1:. Gleeful Sabotage would be a great choice if it were an instant. I hate it at sorcery. Krosan Grip would be fine if you'd listen to me and run 18 effin lands, however, I see K-grip isn't as necessary if you're already bringing in Legates and Shushers for counter/top. Why not just good old fashoined Naturalize?

[Gui]

Well, even though it doesn't remove bridge because of bridge's text, Macabre will remove it by removing a card from that player's graveyard ;D

Gleeful Sabotage works this way: When you cast it, you may put a copy of it into the pile if you tap two creatures, and as the copy was not cast, neither Chalice will counter the copy nor Counterbalance will trigger for the copy. So, they still can counter the copy some other way, but it is less likely to happen then with standard Naturalize.

Naturalize is a powerful card, and it's instant speed can save the game sometimes... It's hard to tell "Gleeful is certainly better than Naturalize". Only certain thing is that Nature's claim isn't better than any of those, and also not better than grip. From my experience, you will usually be able to cast Krosan if you run 17 basic forests. Can't say the same for 13 Basic / 4 non-basic.

Our best hope against Reanimator is to break their revive plan apart, and then we got some turns till they can reassamble, even if they don't play show and tell, they will be able to do so. Against Reanimator, creatures with power 2 for :g: makes the difference, since it's an open way to their hitpoints. Cutting all nettles may mean that you don't have enough of then (4x Elites only?) or maybe you preffer running Jungle Lion. Well, on the good side, Legate can go in too =)

[Kilz88]

What I mean is what do I do with the seeds and reverent silences, number wise. I am content with those as my artifact/enchantment hate now that I have zealot but I don't know how many. Also, how good is ground seal really?

[Gui]

What I mean is what do I do with the seeds and reverent silences, number wise. I am content with those as my artifact/enchantment hate now that I have zealot but I don't know how many. Also, how good is ground seal really?

Seeds and Reverent are not actually needed by you. They improve a few matchups, specially Enchantress and Stax, but you can handle both with standard hate, so, I'd go for 3 zealot maindeck, keep the 3 nature's claim, and maybe an extra K-grip singleton, and cut both seeds and reverent.

Honestly, I think Faerie Macabre or Tormod's cript are better than ground seal. It takes too long to go into play, and they will be able to counter then even with spell snare. And ground won't make the cut against Loam either. And against Ichorid, ground isn't worthy. Go 4-of Tormods or 4-of Faerie instead.

Maybe you can go like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Nature's Claim
4 Rushwood Legate

And 3 Zealot maindeck

[NihilObstat]

@Nihilobstat

I didn't have Chasm in Mind, you're right. But Maze shouldn't be a problem because we play 8 untargettable creatures.
Against Lands again, I would board crypts, as this would nuke their chasm lock.

Pump in response means:

You have a nice tiny 2/2 Kavu Predator in play and your opponent has bwished for dd the turn before, and he will play it his next turn.
You don't use the invigorate in your hand to pump your predator, but play something else and tap yourself out.

The opponent who doesn't know your deck in his turn casts dd for 2, to destroy your predator and all your land.
In response you play invigorate, and have a 5/5 trample in play, while you opponent has cleared two of his lands.



You are right, I didn't think about Maze targeting, you see, I haven't played against Land yet, other than in my head ^^

Thx a lot about the pumping in response thing. After rereading DD I realized that it is only X damage, and not sacrifice X like the lands part. Good thing to keep in mind, I have much to learn about Legacy and Berserk yet.



By the way, I see that the thread is quite lively lately, it seems like All powerful Nature is getting more adepts ^^


About the other topics, Nature's claim is just not good, and I really believe that Gleeful is just way better than Naturalize, unless anyone can tell me some situations when it wouldn't be, but seeing most of the artifacts and enchantments that really blow our strategy off, what you need is just getting rid of them, and it doesn't matter in who's turn, and Gleeful kicks twice, many times.

Last thing, could anyone answer the little question I had, about fitting some more pumpers, and taking out some critters, in my list in page 17 I think.

[umbowta]

What I mean is what do I do with the seeds and reverent silences, number wise. I am content with those as my artifact/enchantment hate now that I have zealot but I don't know how many. Also, how good is ground seal really?

I run 3 Seeds, 3 Reverent, and 2 Crypts but Reanimator is probably going to be the deck du jour for a while so your gonna want more than just two crypts. I could see dropping Reverent Silence down to 2 and maybe even cutting a Legate for the time being so you can fit in a little more grave hate. Ground Seal is something I'd consider only if I had the Crypts and Relics already and it still wasn't enough hate. Since you can't justifiably create a board so lopsided toward grave hate you'll probably never get around to Ground Seal.

[aisman132000]

I'm thinking about playing this deck and read through the entire thread, can someone give me an updated deck list? From what i can see the following cards are standard

4x Kavu Predator
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Skaargan Pit Skulk
4x Skyshroud Elite
4x Nettle Sentinel (this should be standard anyway)

4x Berserk
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Rancor
4xInvigorate

17-18 Lands

This leaves 6-7 open slots, 4x creatures and 2-3 x pump spells.

Thanks for your help

[Kilz88]

Seeds and Reverent are not actually needed by you. They improve a few matchups, specially Enchantress and Stax, but you can handle both with standard hate, so, I'd go for 3 zealot maindeck, keep the 3 nature's claim, and maybe an extra K-grip singleton, and cut both seeds and reverent.

Honestly, I think Faerie Macabre or Tormod's cript are better than ground seal. It takes too long to go into play, and they will be able to counter then even with spell snare. And ground won't make the cut against Loam either. And against Ichorid, ground isn't worthy. Go 4-of Tormods or 4-of Faerie instead.

Maybe you can go like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Nature's Claim
4 Rushwood Legate

And 3 Zealot maindeck

So let me get this straight. Do you or do you not think I should play claim. I mean, after your and other's comments on it and futher testing, is seem like not the best choice. But I think I will play 3 Zealots. Once I do that, I still feel like enchanttress and stax will be a problem and claim wont be able to handle it. So 3 Reverent Silence? Or do I cut a shusher or legate for something like this:

4 Crypt
3 Shusher
2 Reverent Silence
2 Seeds of Innocence
4 Rushwood Legate

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I play Berserk Stompy in a mostly casual setting, so I was wondering if there are any green answers to an holy day effect. Thanks.

[Otter]

I play Berserk Stompy in a mostly casual setting, so I was wondering if there are any green answers to an holy day effect. Thanks.

Using Regrowth or Reclaim to go off again next turn is probably one of the more useful ones.

[DrJones]

I play Berserk Stompy in a mostly casual setting, so I was wondering if there are any green answers to an holy day effect. Thanks.City of Solitude and Dosan the Falling leaf.

Hurricane and Cyclone also work.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

City of Solitude and Dosan the Falling leaf.

Hurricane and Cyclone also work.

Wow I especially like Dosan the Falling leaf suggestion as it is a creature. Thanks for the ideas!

[badjuju]

Just throwing this out there - my experience so far with Zealot has been meh. Against a lot of decks, he's actually a 4CC Naturalize. At this point, I'd almost rather run Viridian Shaman.

Thoughts?

[Otter]

Just throwing this out there - my experience so far with Zealot has been meh. Against a lot of decks, he's actually a 4CC Naturalize. At this point, I'd almost rather run Viridian Shaman.

Thoughts?

Counterbalance is an enchantment and Stax even without a Chalice is difficult because of Prison, so it's nice to be able to kill that too. Shaman is cold there and it kinda ruins the point of having an answer maindeck. If you don't like Zealot, I'd go with either Gleeful, Grip, or just be ballsy and run nothing. If you're going to spend a maindeck slot on utility, it'd better cover all the utility.

[NihilObstat]

I have to say Otter is right, if you are spending main deck slots on side, as many are, cover it all the way possible, and you also have to realize that when playing against other than enchantments or artifacts, Zealots comes down for 1G being a 2/1, and shaman comes down for 2G being a 2/2, so it's kinda not worth. I am also saying this because there are quite a few enchantresses in my area, so maybe I'm not being objective.

Just one thing guys, a week ago, our monthly Magic magazine in Spain, as happens once every few years, sent out a DECKS special, and this one covered legacy. The thing is that there were 2 pages dedicated to Berserk Stompy, and they were written by César Fernández, I don't know if you know him, but just look him up on DeckCheck, he won 2 of the 3 first big tournaments for Berserk Stompy ever, and if I'm not wrong also the biggest one with almost 200 people.

Well, I'll post down the deck he set up there. I won't translate all the text because it would be too long, and there isn't much new you might not know.

15 !!!! Forest
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Silhana Ledgewaker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Rancor
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
2 Seal of Strength
SIDE
1 Forest
4 Seeds of Innocence
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Rushwood Legate

Alright, I have to agree with extra Forest in side to be able to play SEEDS, and Vexing effectively, but I think I would run it main board, but I have to test this build. I know this guys loves running many 1CC creatures, I have read many reports from him, and he wants to drop 1 critter first turn, no matter what. Tattermunge for Nettle, hmmm, I'm not sure about it.
I have to say that this list was made before GP madrid, and he says we don't need GY hate. Oh, well, I guess we need now, against Reanimator and against Dredge's "Iona" that comes into play turn 2 with a great hand, and turn 3 but a nice hand. And 3 Vines playing only 15 lands also sounds excessive to me, but oh well.

He doesn't say much about his choice of Tattermunge, the thing with him and Nettle.
He attacks every turn, which sucks. Nettle has some stupid games when he doesn't untap, once game out of every, how many?, 10??
Just give it a try and comments ;)

[swordoffireandice]

This is my current list. I splashed white in there because Qasali is just great! Far better then Viridian Shaman.

4x Kavu Predator
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
3x Slippery Bogle
2x Skyshroud Elite
3x Nettle Sentinel
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage

4x Berserk
4x Giant Growth
3x Vines of Vastwood
4x Rancor
4xInvigorate
1x Bounty of the Hunt

3x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
2x savannah
9x Forest

Exalted on Noble Hierarch and Qasali makes a Berserked creature even bigger!!
Because of the Noble Hierarch it is also no problem playing Krosan Grip 4x in the sideboard. Vexing Shusher is also easier to play.
When I have Noble Hierarch and an other creature on the battlefield, you can leave a mana from Hierarch open for a defensive pump spell or Vines of Vastwood. About the lands, I think that 1 Savannah good be enough...

[Pltnmngl]

I have to say Otter is right, if you are spending main deck slots on side, as many are, cover it all the way possible, and you also have to realize that when playing against other than enchantments or artifacts, Zealots comes down for 1G being a 2/1, and shaman comes down for 2G being a 2/2, so it's kinda not worth. I am also saying this because there are quite a few enchantresses in my area, so maybe I'm not being objective.

Just one thing guys, a week ago, our monthly Magic magazine in Spain, as happens once every few years, sent out a DECKS special, and this one covered legacy. The thing is that there were 2 pages dedicated to Berserk Stompy, and they were written by César Fernández, I don't know if you know him, but just look him up on DeckCheck, he won 2 of the 3 first big tournaments for Berserk Stompy ever, and if I'm not wrong also the biggest one with almost 200 people.

Well, I'll post down the deck he set up there. I won't translate all the text because it would be too long, and there isn't much new you might not know.

15 !!!! Forest
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Silhana Ledgewaker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Rancor
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
2 Seal of Strength
SIDE
1 Forest
4 Seeds of Innocence
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Rushwood Legate

Alright, I have to agree with extra Forest in side to be able to play SEEDS, and Vexing effectively, but I think I would run it main board, but I have to test this build. I know this guys loves running many 1CC creatures, I have read many reports from him, and he wants to drop 1 critter first turn, no matter what. Tattermunge for Nettle, hmmm, I'm not sure about it.
I have to say that this list was made before GP madrid, and he says we don't need GY hate. Oh, well, I guess we need now, against Reanimator and against Dredge's "Iona" that comes into play turn 2 with a great hand, and turn 3 but a nice hand. And 3 Vines playing only 15 lands also sounds excessive to me, but oh well.

He doesn't say much about his choice of Tattermunge, the thing with him and Nettle.
He attacks every turn, which sucks. Nettle has some stupid games when he doesn't untap, once game out of every, how many?, 10??
Just give it a try and comments ;)

Is it possible to find this article online? I'm willing to pay for that. Or if you could translate whenever you have the spare time, I would greatly appreciate it.

[badjuju]

Not being able to cover enchantments was my first worry, don't get me wrong. I just see more problematic artifacts where I play. I just hate running Zealot out there and losing him to cheap removal and then being cold anyways.

[Gui]

So let me get this straight. Do you or do you not think I should play claim. I mean, after your and other's comments on it and futher testing, is seem like not the best choice. But I think I will play 3 Zealots. Once I do that, I still feel like enchanttress and stax will be a problem and claim wont be able to handle it. So 3 Reverent Silence? Or do I cut a shusher or legate for something like this:

4 Crypt
3 Shusher
2 Reverent Silence
2 Seeds of Innocence
4 Rushwood Legate

This is a good set up. The previous one was just because you probably can afford to run 3x Nature's claim with 4x shusher against both Chalice and CB, and also got extra sideboard, which is legate. But if you are not going nature's claim, you can either go seeds, reverent or gleeful/naturalize in any count, those will be ok. I suggest just switching Nature's Claim in my setup to to 3x Naturalize.



@ César Fernandes List, seems pretty straight forward! Nettle is proven better than Maniac for most of us, and Lion is proven better than Maniac either, but he seems to like running Maniac, and no problems at all, it's almost the same. Only pro it has is being able to block the turn it gets into play. But lion can hold it's attack to a better moment.
What interests me most is the Sideboard: He keeps 4 seeds instead anyother , plays traps over tormods, probably to hold ANTs, and go all forward against blue baseds with 2 rushwood and 4 Shushers. Interesting sideboard config.

[NihilObstat]

Is it possible to find this article online? I'm willing to pay for that. Or if you could translate whenever you have the spare time, I would greatly appreciate it.

Is anyone else interested in César Fernández's report, and "talk about" on Berserk ??? If so say, and I'll translate.
And if some people are interested, may I have GUI Brasil's permission to post it, because it would be kinda long.

I have to say that there really isn't ANYTHING that hasn't been already talked about here, on that report. But if you still want it, just say, I can e-mail it, when I translate it ;)

[umbowta]

Is anyone else interested in César Fernández's report, and "talk about" on Berserk ??? If so say, and I'll translate.
And if some people are interested, may I have GUI Brasil's permission to post it, because it would be kinda long.

Definitely post it. I'd love to read it.

[Gui]

Is anyone else interested in César Fernández's report, and "talk about" on Berserk ??? If so say, and I'll translate.
And if some people are interested, may I have GUI Brasil's permission to post it, because it would be kinda long.

I have to say that there really isn't ANYTHING that hasn't been already talked about here, on that report. But if you still want it, just say, I can e-mail it, when I translate it ;)

To get things straight: I'm not the topic owner. :laugh: I'm not even Adept actually. You may post whatever you want, as long as it follow those rules: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS or else NihilCredo will deal with you!

Fernández is part of the forum, he goes by the name of CHaPuZaS here, and he is addressed in the first page, as the first builder of the deck. There's a link to his blog in the first page also! ^^

[NihilObstat]

To get things straight: I'm not the topic owner. :laugh: I'm not even Adept actually. You may post whatever you want, as long as it follow those rules: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS or else NihilCredo will deal with you!

Fernández is part of the forum, he goes by the name of CHaPuZaS here, and he is addressed in the first page, as the first builder of the deck. There's a link to his blog in the first page also! ^^

Hehe, alright, as soon as I have time, maybe the weekend, I'll post it.

I didn't know he had posted on this forum, but I knew he went by Chapuzas, since that's his name on his blog, which would be really interesting for all the readers here, to practice their spanish skills ^^ just kidding... :P

By the way, you should be an Adept, this topic is really well taken care off, and worked out, first page is great, and all thanks to you.

See you this weekend, and I wanted to ask, if anyone else could write some reports, of events, of testings, that info would be lovely. Oh, and my results were 4-4 on the GP, and not 3-4 as I said, I forgot about a Bye I got on round 7, hehe, so as César says "you will never go home with more looses than victories with this deck!" hehehe ^^

[Gui]

I've played a few matches against reanimator, and the matchup is as terrible as it seems to be. Best wishes are the grave hates comming game 2, and even though, it's a tough match.

Game 1 is a hell, we probably can win like 10% of the matches only, they can counter our zerk, delay us, we have to play around daze, and as soon as pretty much anything comes into play, it gets really hard, specially Iona.

Sideboarded, they can protect themselves from tormods with counters, but if you first turn it, your chances are much better, but they still got plenty of answers, specially when they use a singleton Show and Tell (which everyone should, since it's so easy to fit a 1-of). Remember cast tormods around Dazes too!

Next times I'll test Faerie Macabre as sideboard. It seems way better than tormods against Reanimator, since you can use it in response to Exhume/Reanimate, and simply waste their bullets, and they can't be countered or wasted by duress. Depending on the amount of expected Reanimators, I would run 4 Macabre and a extra tormod. It is such a bad match game 1.

[swordoffireandice]

Maybe splashing white is not such a bad idea? Swords to Plowshares (sideboard?) would stop Iona....Noble Hierarch makes dazes not so good. And Qasali Pridemage is a card we need very much. StP had also good synergy with Kavu.

[thorin_the_king]

hi there;

I know all the people here are sticking to mono green versions of the deck, in terms of wasteland and stifle proof, and sometimes this works quite well. However, i started about two months ago to test a GW version of the deck to include swords to plowshares and qasali pridemage to have a better game one against other strategies. At this point, i included noble hierarch to profit from the exalted theme (i loved to pump silhana to a 3/3 every turn or making hulk unblockable thanks to this). Recently it has changed a lot, since i included blue. And i think i would never come back from this.

anyway here's the list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Forest (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [CNF] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [B] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
3 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 2 [UD] Compost
SB: 2 [MI] Seeds of Innocence
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon

brainstorm is a house here, allowing to dig for that berserk, stp, land, anything we need. Daze will save us those 1st turns, and as we apply a lot of pressure they are forced to play threats very quickly, so they'lle fall into daze or wait a turn.

there's no other deck i tried where selkie is as amazing as here. exalted is huge, so is invigorate and berserk. if they connect only one turn they'll give so much CA that the opp can manage.

ESG gives use daze protection and the possibility to do turn one kavu, tarmo, everything. Cutter has also a good synergy with kavu and it's a free creature like rushwood legate but we can play it in all matches.

anyway, i know that this goes far away the normal build, but this version does not rely in berserk as much as mono G one. we can continue to do kavu invorate berserk berserk to have a fast kill, but i think i can have a very good late game with this version also.

I hope someone could give this a try and share the results here in the source also.

Thanks for reading,

Thorin

I think the time has come to splash a color in this deck, with iona appearing in reanimator, dredge and survival bant, GW survival and rock survvial and...well, lots of decks.

I have continued testing the version i posted here and I still think it's quite good. We are losing the troll shroud guys, but in this version all guys are good on his own (except cutter but it's so good with predator). I'm not really sure about the sb, but gaddocks, extra teeg and shusher are staying.

If any of you can give it a try and share thoughts with me and all of us would be great.

[Kilz88]

Alright guys. I have been talking with umbowta and although he and I disagree a little bit this is what I am running now. I will list my reasons after the list:

Gw Berserk Stompy

// Lands
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Pendelhaven
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [M10] Forest
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [GP] Silhana Ledgewalker
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [GP] Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 [EVE] Slippery Bogle
4 [WWK] Loam Lion
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [U] Berserk
4 [UL] Rancor
4 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
3 [CFX] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [MM] Rushwood Legate
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [6E] Serenity

With the coming of Reanimator to the fore front, we have to adapt. I have a good friend who plays the deck and I tested against him a bit recently as well as playing against a couple versions on MWS. By making this change, the match-up becomes a lot easier to manage. Not to mention makes a few other match-ups better. The only real downside here is that we are now able to be wasteland'd and stifled. Good news there is that the decks that play those, like canadian thresh, were previously pretty good. Here are the choices:

Loam Lion: This guy is just straight up better than Skyshroud Elite. No reason to not play him.

Qasali Pridemage: Again, I was playing 3 Viridian Zealot maindecked in my previous list so this guy is just better. Plus he is better to maindeck due to the exalted.

Path to Exile: Now it is yet to be determined whether the right choice here is swords or path but I find that sometimes silhana ledgewalker just gets there with no boosts so the little life gain does matter. I know that if I have a Kavu out when I swords I get to go to magical christmas land but you can't bank on that. For these I cut 2 seal of strength and a scryb sprite. The other scryb sprite was cut for an 18th land. You don't need the sprites as much now that you have removal.

SIDEBOARD

Legate and Shusher: These guys are all stars. I have always played them and use them as a starting point for a board. Legate is a ton of extra pressure and often resolves through a counterbalance. Shusher also helps the counterbalance match in addition to forcing through spells against anything blue.

Path to Exile: This is just the last slot and I like to bring it in against zoo and reanimator.

Faerie Macabre: After a lot of testing and discussion with my friend who plays reanimator, this is the best option. The only way the can deal with it is thoughseize. Not duress. It doesnt cost you anything and is good enough in the other matches that use the graveyard. All you need against dredge is a little extra time and this will do.

Serenity: This is EVERYTHING we ever wanted in enchantment/artifact removal. It is so good against stax which is a very tough match. Also quite good against enchantress.

Lastly, I played in my weekly legacy last night with my mono-green version because I hadent got the white stuff together yet but the lessons are generally the same. I beat enchantress with ease but I thiink it was more because the player was not the best. You just have to be really fast against them. Reverent Silence was the bomb and serenity would have been better cause I didnt have a kavu when I cast it. I lost to two decks. Landstill and Loam based deck. Landstill I believe is possibly our worst match-up. Moat+Humility+Counters+Cunning Wish for pulse of the fields+Wasteland= UGH! I do feel very confidant that this will become a lot better with the addition of white though. Game 1 he wished for enlightned tutor and got a moat. I had zealots maindeck but no way to force them through. He was able to sit back and fact or fitction and brainstorm into 1000 counterspells. Game 2 I killed him before he had 4 mana with 2 legates, a shusher and a ledgewalker. He wrath'd but I didnt over extend so I had guys in my hand. Oh, I forgot to mention above Wrath and Engineered Explosives. UGH!!!!!!!! Game 3 he explosived me in order to have enough time to get moat and an elspeth. That elspeth's ultimate went off while I was digging for an answer...that was the end of things.

Anywho, I think white is the way to go and it is worth risking wasteland and stifle from our opponents. Happy Berserking!

[Gui]

First thing I'd like to say is that Reanimator won't be THAT easier. Sure, now you can deal with Iona with StP or Path, whatever you are using, but they still got loads of ways to protect them. Really, loads. Thoughtseize, Duress, Force of Will, Daze, Another Creature. Pretty much every creature makes our deck stall, and if they are not Iona, the only hope is Berserking a huge amount of damage. Empyrial Archangel would be your main problem actually, and Inkwell Leviatan. Besides that, there is also Iona set @ white.

I know white splash is better than monogreen because it doesn't loose to Iona immediately, but it will be really hard anyways.
Oh, and don't forget that Tempo Threshold got a good match against Reanimator, so it might show more than you are expecting: take care with your manabase.

That said, I suggest every version, white or not, to go 4 Faerie Macabre at sideboard. Ichorid, in tests, isn't as fast as reanimator, and faerie usually nerfs them enough. Actually, even pre-board, we got a good chance of killing them before they can find their army. Postboard with faeries it gets quite better, we are hard to hold.

Oh, and I'm curious to know what's umbowta's disagrees about your list too!

EDIT: Ah, and I do miss gaddock teeg SB, seince you go white... It's great against Landstill... Dunno where though...

[AcidFiend]

I agree with the last two posts, namely that first Reanimator will still be a very hard matchup even for G/W, but that still I believe G/W strengthens other matchups enough to warrant the move to it. I intimated as much on Page 16 when I posted a list.

Since then I have been testing this splash, and the more I do so, the less it because a splash of White as much a splash of Green. White simply brings so much to the deck. I'm not going to repeat those that Killz88 talked about above, instead making cases for missing cards.

Mother of Runes: This is your permanent Vines of Vastwood/Troll-shroud the deck wants. It either eats a removal immediately or is going to protect your guys for the game. Both outcomes are good for you. One of the decks key problems has been spending all its spells on a huge creature only to have it Sword/Path/Snuff'd/Bounced. Mom solves this.

Jotun Grunt: We don't want to play Goyf as its sometimes too slow, but sometimes we'll be on the receiving end of the 5/6 beast and its no fun. Jotun Grunt is the Anti-Goyf we've all been waiting for. He hoses all graveyard strategies, shrinks Goyfs, is a 4/4 beater for 2, carries Rancor/Berserk like a champ. Play him.

Serra Avenger: Besides Grunt, she is your best creature. Again a great target for Rancor/Equipment. You'd play 8 if you could.

Aether Vial: Counterspells and mana screw (because we want to run a light base) have often been the bane of this deck. Aether Vial helps on both fronts. Frees up your mana for your other spells by putting your dudes into play at instant speed. Most of your guys cost 2 so 3 Vials is the right number here. Also huge with Serra Avenger, letting you play her on turn 3.

Stoneforge Mystic: Combined with Vial you can play dudes, tutor for equipment, play it, all ignoring permission completely. Having a tutor-on-a-guy is perfect for this deck. We can move away from pump spells which are just card disadvantage and move towards the best creature aura in the game - Jitte.

Elspeth: This is one I'm not sure of, still testing. As a finisher she's perfect, creating guys or launching a dude into the air with +3/+3 every turn. Great with equipment as well. A couple of times I haven't been able to cast her but as a one-of shes a great late game top deck.

Note most of these have already seen a lot of success in a simliar deck, 'U/W Tempo'. I have based my structure loosely around that deck. Why play it over UW? More & better creatures :)

Here's my latest list. Not claiming its optimal but I've been having some success with it so far:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Loam Lion
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Watchwolf
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Troll Ascetic

3 Aether Vial
4 Swords
4 Berserk
2 Jitte
1 Sword of F&I
1 Elspeth

3 Forest
5 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy

Been focusing on the main deck, so SB hasn't got much love yet. I've penciled in the following as a starting point:
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Glowrider
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Troll Ascetic
3 Krosan Grip

Thoughts/comments appreciated. I've kept Troll in the deck for now despite its awkward colour requirements because its just a house against Lands and Zoo. You can also move a second Vial up to 3 counters if you're having trouble playing it.

[Gui]

First thing I see at your list is that it run only Berserk as pump! oO
Ok, Jitte, SoFaI, Tutoring equips, but I think that's way too little. Doesn't look like berserk is gonna be more than a +3/+0 trample most of the time. Well, your list looks more like a Wg winnie then a Gw Stompy... Kilz88's list looks more like what I think we should go in Gw Berserk Stompy.

Second thing is that you just added no grave-hate @ your sideboard! xD

[Kilz88]

First thing I'd like to say is that Reanimator won't be THAT easier. Sure, now you can deal with Iona with StP or Path, whatever you are using, but they still got loads of ways to protect them. Really, loads. Thoughtseize, Duress, Force of Will, Daze, Another Creature. Pretty much every creature makes our deck stall, and if they are not Iona, the only hope is Berserking a huge amount of damage. Empyrial Archangel would be your main problem actually, and Inkwell Leviatan. Besides that, there is also Iona set @ white.

I know white splash is better than monogreen because it doesn't loose to Iona immediately, but it will be really hard anyways.
Oh, and don't forget that Tempo Threshold got a good match against Reanimator, so it might show more than you are expecting: take care with your manabase.

That said, I suggest every version, white or not, to go 4 Faerie Macabre at sideboard. Ichorid, in tests, isn't as fast as reanimator, and faerie usually nerfs them enough. Actually, even pre-board, we got a good chance of killing them before they can find their army. Postboard with faeries it gets quite better, we are hard to hold.

Oh, and I'm curious to know what's umbowta's disagrees about your list too!

EDIT: Ah, and I do miss gaddock teeg SB, seince you go white... It's great against Landstill... Dunno where though...

Gaddok Teeg is actually a great idea that I didnt even think of. Maybe something like this:

4x Macabre
3x Legate
3x Shusher
3x Gaddok Teeg
2x Serenity

That would be where I would go I think. In my testing of reanimator they often will get blazing archon first then iona on white second. Because then once they attack with both, I can't berserk or I will die. They also can't ever attack with archon unless I am at 10 or less. So once you have macabre then you have 10 cards for them. I am not saying in any way it a good match up but the difference between this and mono green is great.

[NihilObstat]

Hi guys !!

I'm liking Klizz88 list a lot, but I'm just a lover of nature, and for now I'll stick and enjoy monogreen a bit more. The truth is that Qasali versus Zealot, awesome. Loam lion, versus whatever 1CC, 2 str critter we have in green, Awesome! StP, or Path, great great great, although really just out of what Berserk Stompy is supposed to look like. I think I'd run them in side, if there was room for them...

I wouldn't run Serenity though, sucks against enchantress, they can Aura of silence it, Oblivion it, and recover it all with Replenish. In your Side I would cut out the Legates (I know how good they are, but blue really isn't that bad a pairing), and serenity, and back to the usual. Seeds, Reverent, or similar. I'm saying this without testing... but STAX can also Oblivion serenity, although that won't happen every game.

I also believe you guys are right, saying that maybe getting Fetchies and all isn't that bad to get white, because once again I am really getting confident against blue with this Deck :P specially with 4 Vexing, and a couple Vines to protect from fire/ice, although that's only against few blue decks.

Acid Fiend's deck looks fun, but I also wouldn't call it a Stompy. It would be more like a Berserked Death and Taxes, which is just fine. I have to say that Jotun is really cool though ^^
On the sideboard, I'd say Firewalker, and Troll out, to get GY hate, and others. Glowrider.... dunno, I'd have to test it.
I'll be posting the review tomorrow, but don't be expecting anything great. ;)

[umbowta]

Oh, and I'm curious to know what's umbowta's disagrees about your list too!


This is literally the first list I presented to Kilz88. It's quite unoptimized but it was enough to get the idea. I like StP over Path to Exile and I like a 2/2 split of Bogle and Scrybs, however Mother of Runes deserves consideration over both of those for sure. Very minor disagreements, I know, but time and testing will tell us the right choice.

23 Critters
4x Kavu Predator
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Skaargan Pit Skulk
4x Loam Lion
3x Pridemage
2x Bogle
2x Scryb Sprite

19 utility
4x Berserk
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Rancor
4xInvigorate
3x StP

18 Lands
4x Windswept Heath
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Savannah
1x Pendelhaven
7x Forest

[Gui]

I like StP over Path too...

Scryb over bogle is kind of personal, but makes sense anyways...

Umbowta, are you playing that list or sticking to monogreen? I don't think I'm done with monogreen just because of Reanimator, I still think It can lead me further... I'm currently testing this version, with minor changes from time to time, and next thing I'm really interested testing is coming back to a version without ESG maindeck for extra utility and check the difference betwen running it or not, and drop Thorn of Amethyst to test Chalice of the Void or Mindbreak trap as Sideboard against ANT. I'm still trying to deal with the lack of ANT players though. xD Reanimator is just a lot more played lately. Even though, I don't want to ignore ANT totally, at least 3 slots I'll reserve to it.

Elvish Spirit Guide proved to be useful a few times, and is great when dealing with daze, but most of the time it was normal. When I played 4-of it, it came more in the opening hand, but double of it was too much disadvantage, and late draw when already with enough lands was subpar. Even as a 2/2, by the 4th turn you don't want a 2/2 for 3, you know... 3-of was doing good, but not that I feel it was winning me the games... Not sure if I don't preffer a bit more lands (16~17 maybe) and use more pumps maindeck, I feel that with 20 pumps I'll be able to kill faster more times. (4-of rancor, berserk, invigorate, might, seal)

Current version:

// Lands
15 Forest
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Creatures
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
3 Slippery Bogle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
3 Skyshroud Elite

// Spells
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
2 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Seal of Strength

// Sideboard - Still not what I really want, just a close raw idea: Tooooo much to fit into a small space yet =P
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Vines of Vastwood
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Krosan Grip
4 Faerie Macabre

As I said, I wanna try the free SBs against ANT, so that I can ditch ESG completely (also the 1-of SB which is only there for extra mana for Thorn 1st turn), then I could use other things SB
Vines of Vastwood are SB because of Zoo, but I couldn't test Zoo yet, so i just have a general clue that it would be good IF i drew it. Mostly because I side Gleeful out against them. Still wanna fit at least 2 cards against Counterbalance (Rushwood probably, since Gleeful demands creatures, and she is widely used against it)

Well, as usual, any thoughts on it, I'd appreciate. :wink:

Just a small edit: Sometimes I test different manabases, but just to stay out of the tests issues, I keep all-forests in the list

[AcidFiend]

I am happy to concede my deck is more GW Weenie than GW Stompy.. should I be in another thread? I'm concerned about putting a solid 60 cards together not the naming convention/archetype.

The thing is, while Berserk gets crazy with other pumps, +3/+0 Trample for a G is often good enough. At first I'm like hmm do I even need Berserk in this list, but tried it anyways so far to good effect.

The fact is with GW your creatures are for the most part bigger than Mono. In Mono builds we have some 1-power attacking dudes: Silhana, Bogle, Scryb Sprite. These guys are pretty hopeless with *just* a Berserk. In GW, half the creatures are 1 or 2 power while the other half are 3 or 4 power. Plus the inbuilt synergy of the Exalted buff. This makes Berserk better (in comparison) on its own in GW. Swinging with a 8/4 Trampling Jotun Grunt (who is staring down shrunken Goyfs) is awesome.

Add to that there are a still few ways you can get a pre-pump before Berserk, albeit not many. Exalted, Rancor, Jitte counters and SoFI. Also double Berserk, which as we all know can and does happen.

It acts as a random combat trick most don't expect. Lastly, trample+buff is just what a deck like with equipment needs (I'm looking at you SoFI). Being able to get damage through to the opponent in this scenario is key. Due to equipment we can run a higher threat count. This means you're less likely to draw hands full of pump spells and no business.

I'll admit I haven't tested some other recent builds I've seen listed here - my playtesting time is pretty limited. That said I do want to sleeve up some other builds and give my impressions over the next week.

@ GuiBrazil: Gleeful Sabotage... this is a prime example of why to splash white. Pridemage is just better in so many ways. This deck is all about swinging with dudes. 4 Pridemage means you'll have access to removal if you need it, but they act as a 2/2 Exalted when you don't. They are actually fine in multiples with their exalted stacking, so you can run 3-4; meaning you should draw one when you need it. Gleeful is good in some narrow situations sure, but it also could be completely dead. Its not like you need to run a lot of non-basics to support White at a minimum anyways. Even in the face of Wasteland, this deck has a very low curve. I don't understand all of the fear of non-basic-hate in this thread. Look at Zoo. Its a Tier 1 deck that runs AT MOST 3 Basics. And despite all the Wasteland and Moon effects its a Deck to Beat. The reason is because it plays the best spells it can and punishes decks that try to play fair with basics & Gleeful Sabotage.

Regarding sideboards, I think its pretty pointless to discuss them too much as a whole unless people are posting what kind of metagame they play in.

For mine, it has a noticeable lack of graveyard hate. I did say I hadn't looked much at it, and Glowrider will probably be too slow and be dropped, potentially making room for something along these lines. That said, Jotun Grunt is MD and is a house. I own and play Dredge and this guy has slaughtered me a number of times - Dredge has no answer for it. Add to that I have Swords for Ichorids and can usually sacrifice a Pridemage to remove Bridges, Teeg means no Dread Return, and the matchup is good enough. White showing its usefulness here :) Relic and co won't ensure you stop Reanimator anyways (as they have Show n Tell). It seems the entire Source is fearing over this deck right now. Thankfully almost no-one in my meta plays it. If I had to come up against it and they named Green I have StP. If they name White, at least I have Aether Vial and would try to race them. I'd potentially swap SoIF for SoLS. Vial in Serra and block all day.

Whoo, what a ramble.

[AcidFiend]

x

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I like StP over Path too...



Why? Accelerating your opponent sucks, but in a do or die deck I don't like StP. Victory and defeat could be the difference of a few points of life in the early game.

[Gui]

Why? Accelerating your opponent sucks, but in a do or die deck I don't like StP. Victory and defeat could be the difference of a few points of life in the early game.

It depends a lot actually,but it's mostly because of Kavu... Although against Reanimator, Path would be better (If you manage to be able to play it against their threat). Against a lot of Decks, you will be removing 2/x and 3/x creatures that would give you trouble, like Dark Confidant or Magus of the Tabernacle, and the extradamage can be dealt more easily in a clean field.

But it's hard to say which one is better, since Kavu can use Swords' help, and otherwise Path would be better.


@ Gleeful Sabotage - It's not a bad card. It can go thru a stabilished Counterbalance +Top or a Chalice @2 as long as you have 2 creatures on board, which usually happens. Although Krosan postboard is more effective.

I don't splash because I find myself in need of extra manabase (even if it's Hierarch) instead of running a high count of power/skill - effective creatures and more pumps to use a highly effective Berserk. I try to make a more stable manabase, and get a slower attack. And for me, the deck is running just fine monocolored. In current legacy, every deck got it's bad points.

Just another Edit: If I was to take a splashed list to a tourney, It would be pratically the same as umbowta's. (Except maybe I'd run bogle)

[swordoffireandice]

I am playing the white splash right now and it is doing very well. Besides Loam Lion I am also running Steppe Lynx. A second turn rancored exalted 7/6 Lynx is awesome!!! This deck is so incredible fast! Third turn Kills much more common.
I must say that Jotun Grunt seems a nice 2 drop when playing a white splash, but I really do not know what to cut...Kavu and Silhana are auto included and Pridemage makes this deck very good.

4x Loam Lion
4x Steppe Lynx
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Kavu Predator
4x Silhana Ledgewalker

4x Berserk
4x Giant Growth
4x Vines of Vastwood
4x Rancor
4xInvigorate

4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Misty Rainforest
4x savannah
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Flagstones of Trokair

Sideboard is still open, I was thinking about:
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Krosan Grip
4x Hidden Gibbons

[umbowta]

@Gui-Brasil, Mono green is still what's sleeved up but I am definitely interested in continuing to explore the white splash.
I am playing the white splash right now and it is doing very well. Besides Loam Lion I am also running Steppe Lynx. Oooh I should have thought of Steppe Lynx. Duh. Along those lines, your manabase could use some tweaking. Another fetch and one less Savannah...and why Flagstones?


I must say that Jotun Grunt seems a nice 2 drop when playing a white splash, but I really do not know what to cut...Kavu and Silhana are auto included and Pridemage makes this deck very good.
I don't necessarily think that Kavu is auto included in white splash stompy (I really wanna call the deck ZooGasm, lol, white splash, ;P eeeww) Jotun Grunt provides a threat that's potentially soooo much more potent than the somewhat cutesy/gimmicky Kavu => Invigorate pseudocombo. I mean, come on, maindeck help against Dredge, Reanimator, and opposing Mongoose(s) or Goyf(s)...or you could cast a 2/2 trample bear that MIGHT get the lifegain benefit. I'd say drop 2 Kavu's and try the Grunts. It sounds great on paper anyway.

I think we should probably start another thread in New and Developmental for white splash, aka ZooGasm, instead of clogging up the monogreen thread. Any objections to calling it ZooGasm? Any other name suggestions before I start a thread?

[Gui]

I think we should probably start another thread in New and Developmental for white splash, aka ZooGasm, instead of clogging up the monogreen thread. Any objections to calling it ZooGasm? Any other name suggestions before I start a thread?

Hmmm... I don't think so, the deck idea is the same as Berserk Stompy, Zoo players usually don't run pumps claiming it's not better than removals/burns. I think it is, and should remain in the Berserk Stompy thread. I mean, if white splash is what everyone is going, that shall be fine to discuss Gw Berserk Stompy more and ditch G Berserk Stompy. I got a lot of ideas from this thread for my monocolored deck even though not all got to be used. I think it's like Goblins, that have different Splashes, and eventually a splash is better than the other... It also helps people to determine which one they like most. :smile:

Oh, and ZooGasm? where did it come from? xD

Oh, and also, this thread is already supposed to cover Splashes, like the Gwr list @first page. If you guys think it's worthy, I can add the "raw Gw list" to the first page too.

[umbowta]

Wait a little while for the idea to be tested before adding it to the front page...if that's what you want to do. You really don't want to be promoting the crap out of a splash that's still waaaay developmental on the front page of an Established thread. There are at least 6 different cards that are still being debated.

The name ZooGasm came from my perverted mind...of course. The Gasm portion is clearly a play on the white splash terminology.

[Gui]

Wait a little while for the idea to be tested before adding it to the front page...if that's what you want to do. You really don't want to be promoting the crap out of a splash that's still waaaay developmental on the front page of an Established thread. There are at least 6 different cards that are still being debated.

The name ZooGasm came from my perverted mind...of course. The Gasm portion is clearly a play on the white splash terminology.

It was a rhetorical question ;D

Sure, I'll wait.

[swordoffireandice]

@Gui-Brasil, Mono green is still what's sleeved up but I am definitely interested in continuing to explore the white splash.Oooh I should have thought of Steppe Lynx. Duh. Along those lines, your manabase could use some tweaking. Another fetch and one less Savannah...and why Flagstones?

I think we should probably start another thread in New and Developmental for white splash, aka ZooGasm, instead of clogging up the monogreen thread. Any objections to calling it ZooGasm? Any other name suggestions before I start a thread?

The mana base could indeed use some tweaking.

I also think we do not need another thread. This game is always so much fun because we have a lot of options. Mono green, GW, GU berserk stompy are all options. It also depends on every new set with new cards coming out.

I must say that I like all the input on this thread!

[Gui]

I have asked Brandon (emidln) about Chalice of the Void against ANT, and his answer is that against Aggro, the normal sideboard is Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor, both will let they go of by turn 2 or 3 the same way. He says Mindbreak Trap is more likely to buy you time, unless it's a duress version. Best option both cases is tu rush them the early, the better.

[swordoffireandice]

I have asked Brandon (emidln) about Chalice of the Void against ANT, and his answer is that against Aggro, the normal sideboard is Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor, both will let they go of by turn 2 or 3 the same way. He says Mindbreak Trap is more likely to buy you time, unless it's a duress version. Best option both cases is tu rush them the early, the better.

Yep, just try to rush them. Early damage is very important. If you can use Berserk second turn on a pumped creature, or just have pump spells, use them! The more damage you get through, the less likely it is that they can go off.
Gaddock Teeg has a place in my sideboard though....splashing white increases the chance of winning against combo decks. :wink:

[NihilObstat]

Berserk Stompy report by César Fernández

Definitely, Berserk Stompy isn’t, and will never be, the best deck in the format. ¿Why then am I talking about it? Because we aren’t only talking about the best, and thanks to the results raised by this deck in past seasons, a certain tradition has build up in this country. Furthermore, it has some strengths and advantages that really should be considered.

¿Why to play Berserk Stompy?
As I’ve said before, I’m not going to try and convince you that you are just going to go and win a Grand Prix with this deck, but there are many aspects for which this deck is definitely worth playing.
First of all, you are facing one of the few decks that cost less than 200€ in the format (275$). Legacy is format that after some time is worth it, economically speaking, but if you can’t afford a big card expense, you’ll find yourself a big friend in this deck. Thanks to the apparition, as the star card, of Berserk in the pack From the Vault: Exiled, it’s price is quite low right now. Having this in mind, the rest of the deck doesn’t cost more than 50€, rounding up. There aren’t many decks that cost less than this that can achieve any good results in Legacy, and with this I don’t just mean to win a tournament, but I haven’t ended any tournament for some years without having more defeats than victories.
If the mone factor doesn’t really convince you, but you are sick of loosing to those ugly Goblins, you little brother’s Sligh deck, or your favourite store “pro’s” Zoo…. Forget your woes! Berserk Stompy is the solution to all those problems. Okay, maybe others might come up but, there is no doubt, that aggro decks will be your least preocupation.
It’s game style, the strategy overall, and also the abilities of some of our creatures will make of our deck an enemy tough to beat for aggro decks. It’s faster than almost all of them, and even if we both have explosive hands, our win conditions will be almost unstoppable. It’s true that for that same reasons other decks might have better pairing against control, but that’s a problem you’ll have to face if you choose this build. (*I guess he means Stax)
Berserk Stompy is and excellent option for metagame, specially if your area is full of aggressive decks.

Card by Card
The deck is quite easy to play, so I've chosen not to spend all the article on that. Playing your critters, in a certain order, under a certain thought and criterion, sometimes quite obvious depending on the build you are facing, and then Pumping them. It's quite more important explaining, at least under my point of view, those little but important things that we have talked about before, anyhow, we will talked about why I am including each card.
Forest. Real good, it gives us mana! After a lot of time and thought we can say that with 15 lands the decks runs smoothly, and that the 15 basic lands construction is much better than the 10 basics and 7 fetch ones. Fetch Lands gives us a drawback for an almost imperceptible betterment.
Skyshroud elites and Tattermunge Maniac are our first line of attack, their 2 strength is totally necessary to put the pressure we need in the game the first turns. Slippery Boggle's and Silhana Ledgewalker's enemy shroud are extraordinary. This last one is indeed our best and most important creature. Having this girl on the board and a couple bumps is a house against many many decks.
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk is just as essential against lots of decks. One of these rancored is an unbeatable enemy, and there's nothing better than a nicely pumped and berserked skarrgan against an infinite army of blockers on the other side that don't make up to his strength. Kavu Predator is the house (I think this is how what you call when a card is awesome, "atraco" in spanish) and minicombo of the deck. Next to invigorate, it can get you a nice 5/5 trampler on turn 2, nothing we should say no to in this deck.
On the Bumps section, Berserk is the most important one, transforming all the other bumps in the kind of threats your really don't want to be facing. Invigorate is the second best in our deck, it's combinations with Berserk, Kavu and Skarrgan make him totally necessary, not playing it or playing Bounty of the Hunt is an error. It gives us crazy advantage against lightning effects, so we always want to have one at hand. Rancor is like a 2/x creature with haste and indestructible, give it time if you can't destroy it, and it'll beat you. Might of Old Krosa is an improved Giant Growth, and Seal of Strength fixes our mana making our road to victory as easy as desired, even protecting our creatures when we are out all tapped out. Vines of Vastwood are enormous, can you ask more of a +4/+4, that counters destroy effects?
Our aid (sideboards) comes focused on our worst enemies, quite simple. The lonely Forest helps us as much as with help against Stax and Trinisphere, as a help to get to pay the cost of our awesome Seeds of Innocence, which are WIN when facing Stax, Affinity and similars.
Vexing Susher is our bench's Most Valuable Player, not play 4 of them would be an error too, since if there's something for sure abundant in the format that is counterspells, specially in the decks we don't like being up against, so there is nothing better to help us say "Yes!" to the typical "No". Furthermore, Chalices of the Void just get ruined when facing this dude. Mindbreak Trap is a quite recent support for facing combo players who might wanna risk taking those Duress out against us or who try to go out too soon. Before we would see four copies of Tormod's Crypt, but we really don't need them. We don't have any deck manipulation, so we can't assure having one in our first cards. Anyway, Ichorid in Legacy has gone an acceptable pairing against us thanks to their Bloodghast version... slower but more stable? Perfect for us, that turn or two longer they'll take is just what we need.
Rushwood Legate is the last card in our sideborad, and it could just be another Forest, against Stax, and a Gaea's Blessing for the Painter's and Solidarities we might find, but it just ends up being extremely effective and fast facing some blue decks. Too far for Spell Snare and Daze to get her, too expensive for Pernicious Deed, and the same goes for Engineered Explosives.

To Wrap it all Up
If your finally give this build a try, just remember that it won't all be easy and pretty for you. White Stax is horrible, they can combo you before you might do them, the best control decks, before good players, will be unbeatable, and the many Counterbalance, Vedalken Shakles and Sower of Temptation won't make things easy for you. But if you want to play it just go and do it and... Good Luck, and enjoy it!


Main Deck
15 Forest
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Silhana Ledgewaker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Rancor
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
2 Seal of Strength

Sideboard
1 Forest
4 Seeds of Innocence
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Rushwood Legate

by César Fernández, "Chapuzas"

[NihilObstat]

Just a thing to keep in mind, this report was written a couple weeks before GP Madrid and maybe even before Iona came out, for he doesn't mention her in Ichorid or anywhere, as well as he doesn't mention reanimator.

[Gui]

Yep, just try to rush them. Early damage is very important. If you can use Berserk second turn on a pumped creature, or just have pump spells, use them! The more damage you get through, the less likely it is that they can go off.
Gaddock Teeg has a place in my sideboard though....splashing white increases the chance of winning against combo decks. :wink:

Kind of... Gaddock teeg is as expected by combo as thorn of amethyst, and will be equally bounced by Chain of Vapor... On the other hand, a possible white side against them are Orim's Chant and Silence. Gaddock Teeg is great against decks with high costing cards like Wrath and against decks with Chalice or Engineered Explosives, which means he is good against Stax and Landstill, both hard matches for us.

The worst problem against ANT is that hybrid versions running Doomsday and/or Ill-Gotten Gains can go around the Ad Nauseam life loss plan, denying us the rush plan.


@NihilObstat - Nice Article! Will have to comment that latter.

[Kilz88]

I agree with Gui on Teeg. Not great against combo, but really the best option against stax and landstill. Those matches are tough. I think our best option against combo is probably chant effects. I am not playing any in my board cause I plan on just bringing in Teeg to slow them down enough to just kill them faster.

[Gui]

Some comments about César's article.

First, I agree that Stompy won't be the best deck in the format: Stompy never was, and it exists since long time. But as Umbowta said, it's better that way, I like the surprise effect!

About his build, it is entirely build around being an all-in combo deck: 15 lands, 24 creatures, 21 pumps. Going 21 pumps with 3 Vastwood and 8 enemy-shroud creatures means he is willing to beat that way, or gloriously die trying. What bothers me is that 15 forests seems a bit little for a Berserk using Vastwoods, he probably wants to either use vastwood as a shroud-only option, or as a late-game option, probably for a final beat. I'd use 3 seal instead, so that 15 forest gets even more consistant.

The pro-side of that list is that it goes straigh against aggro (and thus, also against aggro-control like Tempo Thresh) which is a way to improve Zoo matchup. He kind of forget about controls, reason for which he goes heavy anti-control in his sideboard, and consider the only deck we can't rush is Storm, thus siding mindbreak trap in.

This is a nice way of building the deck: Focus on a point, and don't leave it even for a moment; master of something, not a jack of all trades. He increases the aggro matchup by making a short but stable manabase, running 24 creature, which means he will try to have 3~5 by turn 3 (like most of us do), and 21 pumps, which means he will most likely have a turn 3~4 clock for the final blow. Even if he can't protect himself from control, he'll do better postboard with at least +6 cards most of the time.

The "rise" of reanimator may mean we can't rush reanimator either, and need another sideboard option against it, making his sideboard choices less effective.

He goes straight against Stax and Top SB, but I'd go different: Go krosan grips istead of Seeds, increasing Enchantress and Counterbalance matchs. Then, reduce the count of a single creature or pump maindeck and add the forest needed for krosan. I'd get Rushwood legate out (since now you side both krosan and shusher against it), reduce the count of shusher - or even mindbreak trap - to 3, and go +4 Faerie Macabre. That will give the deck sideboard options agaist a lot of decks, and also important: Side against Shackles and Threads, and E.E./Keg possibly. And you still side 7~8 effective cards against Stax and CB+Top.

[Gui]

Replying to myself just because it's different content from the previous post:

Have you guys checked out the new pump from Eldrazi? http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=102769&d=1268625905

I know it's not +4/+4 like krosa, but it's free +2/+2 next turn, which fixes mana to berserk and increases dmg delt before the zerk.

[NihilObstat]

Yeah, I was wondering when anyone was gonna talk about it, hehe.
I'm really liking it, it is indeed "only" +2/+2, but we should really consider it, and give it a try, the question is, over what ??
It'll have to be Krosa, and then is the change worthy? Time will tell. I'm gonna proxy it and see how it goes.

[Gui]

Yeah, I was wondering when anyone was gonna talk about it, hehe.
I'm really liking it, it is indeed "only" +2/+2, but we should really consider it, and give it a try, the question is, over what ??
It'll have to be Krosa, and then is the change worthy? Time will tell. I'm gonna proxy it and see how it goes.

I wouldn't trade Might of Old Krosa for it, at least not while I had Seal or Vastwood yet. Krosa is the faster pump for :g: we have, and the best when Berserking, unless maybe for Invigorate that is a free +5 dmg during zerk and can pump kavu...

[NihilObstat]

Yeah, well, I said Krosa because if what we want to do with this guy is fixing mana, I believe that Seal is a little better, although maybe not. Vines is usually not in if you have Seal, or few copies, but it's shroud abilities is awesome many times, and Invigorate, I just believe is way tooo good in our deck to ever remove it, even without Kavu, it's +5, as you said, for 0 mana. 0 mana, which is what we usually need, and that's why the new guy is also good. Running, 4 Invigorate, 4 Seal, 4 of the new card would allow us to run 15 lands perfectly well, or at least is should, the thing is, do we want to ??
The problem we would face, I think, running so low mana, and low pumpers, +2, +3, is that we would make ourselves really Berserk dependent. So you're right, I didn't really think about what I was saying, taking out Might ;)

[Gui]

Yeah, well, I said Krosa because if what we want to do with this guy is fixing mana, I believe that Seal is a little better, although maybe not. Vines is usually not in if you have Seal, or few copies, but it's shroud abilities is awesome many times, and Invigorate, I just believe is way tooo good in our deck to ever remove it, even without Kavu, it's +5, as you said, for 0 mana. 0 mana, which is what we usually need, and that's why the new guy is also good. Running, 4 Invigorate, 4 Seal, 4 of the new card would allow us to run 15 lands perfectly well, or at least is should, the thing is, do we want to ??
The problem we would face, I think, running so low mana, and low pumpers, +2, +3, is that we would make ourselves really Berserk dependent. So you're right, I didn't really think about what I was saying, taking out Might ;)

After some testing, the card is worse than both Krosa and Seal, better at fixing mana than Growth, and totally different from the role of Vines of Vastwood. From that, I would add it to the deck only if I already had the 20 other pumps (berserk, rancor, invigorate, krosa and seal) and still want more berserk power, which I don't.

[NihilObstat]

I know this page is only for legacy, but I don't seem to find anything similar enough for extended, if anyone could give me a hint to a similar page or so I would really thank you. In the mean time, I'm going to post just real quick, I hope no one gets offended, and if you do I'll erase the post, a Extended Berserk Stompy deck.

Logically, though, we have no Berserk in extended, so I am playing Fatal Frenzy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=124748) for it. 2R ---- Berserk Yeah, too much mana compared to ours, but oh well ^^ This is the list I'm testing, I'd be kinda more casual, but I wanna see if it has Any chances at all...

4x Fatal Frenzy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=124748)
4x Dust Corona (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=110501)
4x Taste for Mayhem (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107597) I am running enchant creatures and no instants, because I want to be able to play a huge 2R Berserk quick enough
4x Lightning Talons (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176446)
3x Might of Old Krosa, although they could be Pretrified Plating (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=132223)
4x Blood Moon main deck,there is soo much combo in extended...Dredge, Topters, Marit Lage, others. and I wanna have some chance against them

4x Gobling Guide will give us some first turns hits, to reduce those 20 lives to something more like 16 hopefully, or 14
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Slippery Boggle we want our enemy shroud creatures because we play enchant creatures, and don't want card disadvantage
4x Kird Ape or Skarrgan Pit Skulk
2x Whatever here maybe Kird Ape or Skarrgan if we didn't fit them in or one Feral Animist (link down), or Gathan Riders (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130707) XD big and good with Taste for May. Blood Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130715), Bloodmark Mentor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142062), or Plated Geopede (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=170977) would be just fine here as much as Spark Elemental, Llanowar Augur, Scab-Clan mauler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96904) or our sweetly trampling Kavu !!!! ^^
3x Simian Spirit Guide to get our Blood Moons in quick against combo and our Fatal Frenzy easier

Feral Animist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96945) sounds so much fun, but I couldn't fit it in ^^

Lands
4x Rootbound Crag (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=208042) 4x Mountain
4x Stomping Ground (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96896) 3x Forest 1x Skarrg, the Rage Pits (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96970)

And a couple interesting things about the build: Silhana can't be blocked by non flyers, add it to Dust Corona, and you have un Unblockable creature. Enemy shroud enchanted creatures are pretty nice indeed specially when they first strike, an all powerful killing machine, and tough to kill as Rambo or Terminator XD XD XD Also our SimianSG and our low land build will help Taste for Mayhem be consistent.

Well, that's it, any comments, or another page to upload this at, are welcome !!!! ;)

[Gui]

I wish I could help, but I got no clue about extended decks... Can't even know if a 3cc berserk would work... I think Double Cleave is better. I think if I'd go extended, I'd go with Silhana + Bogle + Moldervine Cloak, almost sure. The other enchantments are also great, but I think you'll need some Trollshroud there... Maybe even run Troll Ascetic? Go 4x Seal of Strenght, since you don't have any free-pump to back you up too (neither Invigorate nor Bount of the Hunt)

[NihilObstat]

Hi, thanks for commenting, I will only make this other post about the extended deck, and that shall be it, since this is for legacy. Just if anyone would know a page... thx ^^

So after testing a bit, I've changed things a bit. I am running now Birds of Paradise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142) over Kird Ape, and 1 or 2 Radha, Heir to Keld (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=128949) and both really make things come down a lot faster, Radha helping us pay for a "colorless" 1CC Berserk ^^

I've cut Blood Moon down to 3, main deck, maybe even only 2. I've kept 4x Might of old Krosa, and added 1x Petrified Plating which could be Moldervine Cloak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89009), thanks for that one, I didn't know it. And I had also thought about Troll Ascetic and even though it's double green cost it should really be included, the real problem with it, as in the normal berserk, is it's 3CC which makes him slow. Although, 1 or 2 copies would be really nice.
Oh, and Skarrg, the Rage Pits is out, not nice when you draw it first hand, and not even good in middle game, having to pay 2 and tap it for it's ability. So lands down to 15.
Well, that's all for it, thanks a lot !!!

[jrsthethird]

Anyone test Uktabi Drake in the mono-G build?

[Strawberry Dwarf]

Anyone test Uktabi Drake in the mono-G build?

I did and my conclusion: Scryb Sprites are much better in most real situations, because they create permanent threat. Uktabi Drake is just shock for 2 or it drains so much mana resources next upkeep. Usually i didn't have enough resources to win straight by pumping and berserking immediately and Drake kept waiting in my hand. Aggro decks must create consistent pressure first rather than make an attempt to win immediately at any cost.

[Gui]

I did and my conclusion: Scryb Sprites are much better in most real situations, because they create permanent threat. Uktabi Drake is just shock for 2 or it drains so much mana resources next upkeep. Usually i didn't have enough resources to win straight by pumping and berserking immediately and Drake kept waiting in my hand. Aggro decks must create consistent pressure first rather than make an attempt to win immediately at any cost.

Exactly this.

[KBH]

The thing about Prey's Vengeance is that you can use it defensively on THEIR turn and still get a bonus on your turn. Offensively, its closest to Rancor I suppose, although Rancor is miles better (duh)

Uktabi Drake, while not good, is still better than Scryb Sprites because Drake represents reach since for 2 mana you can send a surprise 5-6 damage through the air. Scryb Sprites are almost when Moat was very popular years ago in Vintage I think they got some action.

I really don't understand the point of some of these decks? Why sellout for Berserk and then play dorks like Ledgewalker that slow you down so horribly?

Has anyone ever tried Root Maze?

[Gui]

The thing about Prey's Vengeance is that you can use it defensively on THEIR turn and still get a bonus on your turn. Offensively, its closest to Rancor I suppose, although Rancor is miles better (duh)

Uktabi Drake, while not good, is still better than Scryb Sprites because Drake represents reach since for 2 mana you can send a surprise 5-6 damage through the air. Scryb Sprites are almost when Moat was very popular years ago in Vintage I think they got some action.

I really don't understand the point of some of these decks? Why sellout for Berserk and then play dorks like Ledgewalker that slow you down so horribly?

Has anyone ever tried Root Maze?

Why don't you post your list, and explain why you don't play Ledgewalker? It won me many games already, via rancor, berserk, and even by herself... Evasion and Trollshroud is pretty nice for anyone using 18 or more pumps

EDIT: I did use Root Maze as hate, but nowadays it has no meaning... against Combo, they will Chain of Vapor it, and against other stuff, being tapped in the first turn means nothing.

Scryb is better than Drake because it enters in the first turn and manage to survive until the second turn, as a 1cc creature. Rancor it and you will see how better it is.

[KBH]

I played a version of this deck in the Legacy Open last weekend. I sold the pitiful remains of my once proud collection and wanted a deck that was basically all commons.

I had to trade for Berserks and only ended up with 3.

Anyway, I hadn't played this deck in a while, so I went with more of an n-land build. It had some crazy "Berserk you out from 14" turns but I think my poor creature base hurt me alot. Rogue Elephants, Vine Dryads, Hidden Herds, and so on

I've actually played an all-commons version of the deck in a different format (Pauper) and I'm not sure that all commons (+Berserk of course) isn't better. The card disadvantage stuff (ESG, Bounty of the Hunt) is really dual-edged. In the all commons version, Wild Mongrel is very good since you aren't tossing excess cards to Bounty of the Hunt or Vine Dryad.

I didn't have time to think about the Invigorate+Kavu Predator idea, I admit I am pretty skeptical about that. Both cards are so weak themselves.

Hidden Herd is actually very strong, it got countered alot for me and fetchlands mean it isn't dead even vs mono-colored decks.

On the topic of fetchlands, if you go first you may not be able to play it until turn 3 if your opponent plays a fetchland turn 1. That plus the 1 toughness made me not like them very much. They would be good vs Chalice of the Void but I'm not sure which decks play that. For that reason, a couple Vine Dryads are probably still decent. Forestwalk is also relevant a fair amount of the time.

To be honest, Vines of Vastwood would probably have been awesome just as a 1 mana counterspell with the added bonus that it can be a pump spell as well.

I had trouble getting turn 3 wins, but I think that may be because I wasn't used to having multiple berserks, those can get really insane.

[NihilObstat]

Hi there! Nice that you reported your tournament experience ;)

I have just a couple of things to say. You need 4x Berserk, and not for getting twice in the same match, but to increase your chances of playing 1 each game. Rogue Elephants that screw our mana base suckkk, Vine Dryads are thought some time for sideboard, but just as Bounty of the Hunt have been dropped out for the disadvantage they bring, and what we are supposed to do with this deck is to explode every single advantage we have facing many decks, and not taking extra disadvantages.
That's why we don't play fetchlands, and we play Kavu + Invigorate, maybe it doesn't look too good on paper but it's awesome on the board. Plus Invigorate, as Gui_Brasil has said many times is this deck's FOW, and not Bounty, you play it for free, and you can use it to surprise block, save a creature from dying, hitting for extra 5 next a berserk, and all this for 0 mana and with only 1 card. No need to say how good it gets with Kavu. And playing Kavu makes our sideboard to blend with our main deck, therefore being able to calmly play Seeds of Innoncence, or Reverent Silence, and making those "decent" cards, into the greatest things you have ever seen, and you'll just love the look in your opponents face ^^

ESG has been tested quite thorougly (don't know how to spell that...) and it's a fun card to play, so I can't say anything about that one.

Well, just keep playing the deck, play it as you will, and have fun with it. I've just commented the most usual thing that have been talked to much about during the whole threat, so keep them in mind if you want ;) By the way, turn three kills aren't tooo common for us, they certainly happen, but not always. And you would increase that with ESG and 4x Berserk. Take care !!!

[paeng4983]

i've been reading the entire thread for about a month now.
so can anyone here show his latest build?
im really a big fan of this berserk stompy.
i've been using this deck since last year (the fernandez build)
and it always delivers good results for me.

here's my share for the topic

4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
8 forest
1 drayd arbor

2 lotus petal

4 rancor

4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
4 berserk

4 natural order

1 simic skyswallower
4 ESG
4 kavu predator
3 skyshroud cutter
4 nettle sentinel
2 scryb sprites
3 llanowar elves


SB
4 choke
3 ravenous trap
4 reverent silence
4 seeds of innocence

[KBH]

I don't know about Invigorating to save a creature. Doesn't giving them 3 life more or less turn that creature into a mini-Skyshroud Cutter?

I'm gonna have to try you guy's builds and see how they fare!

[atosecond]

What do you guys think about Talara's Battalion either as a complement or replacement to Kavu Predator, and or nettle sentinel as another 1 drop. In play testing, I've found that due to the speed of the deck, the Sentinel is almost always untapped and you've almost always managed to play a green spell for one (or zero w/ Invigorate).

[NihilObstat]

What do you guys think about Talara's Battalion either as a complement or replacement to Kavu Predator, and or nettle sentinel as another 1 drop. In play testing, I've found that due to the speed of the deck, the Sentinel is almost always untapped and you've almost always managed to play a green spell for one (or zero w/ Invigorate).

Just read the whole threat if you are really interested. If you read, you'll see that many of us play Nettle Sentinel before Skyshroud's Elite, Gazhban Ogre, Tattermunge Maniac, or Lions, but those creatures really are Metagame dependent, choice dependant and how everyone feels about them. About Talara's Batallion, I also thought about it, and I just have to say, test it, it will only do well 50% of the time, and it's hateful at topdeck, which is really important in this build. When we play it, it will be awesome, but it's usually too mana expensive for our deck, even running Invigorate.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Just read the whole threat if you are really interested. If you read, you'll see that many of us play Nettle Sentinel before Skyshroud's Elite, Gazhban Ogre, Tattermunge Maniac, or Lions, but those creatures really are Metagame dependent, choice dependant and how everyone feels about them. About Talara's Batallion, I also thought about it, and I just have to say, test it, it will only do well 50% of the time, and it's hateful at topdeck, which is really important in this build. When we play it, it will be awesome, but it's usually too mana expensive for our deck, even running Invigorate.

Yep totally true. I played with Battalion for almost a year, and in the end she is not worth it.

[paeng4983]

if you will use talara in the build that this thread is talking about,
it will really be a bad card because it does not have the synergy
with the cards that this thread is discussing.i am not saying that
you must create a new thread just for TB. instead, let's try to
incorporate TB using cards that best jive with her. here's my
two cents about TB: ( im not trying to begin another mood here,
im just trying to help him build a berserk stompy utilizing TB :D )

4 Talara's Battalion
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kavu Predator
3 skyshroud cutter
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 tarmogoyf
2 scryb sprites

4 berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Manamorphose

4 Land Grant

4 Rancor

10 Forest

[JohnnyCage]

Has anyone ever tested sylvan library? Just finished reading the entire thread lol. It's a doozy. What ever happened to the troll lists

[paeng4983]

RE: sylvan library
i believe that it will just slow you down.
berserk stompy takes advantage on the
speed that it offers you. you can win
at turn two via the 1st drop 1cc creature
then followed by 2 invigorate and
two berserks.

on the otherside though, sylvan library
will be a big help in searching (and drawing)
cards you need in order for you to boast
your hand.

:tongue:

*edit*
i just saw Phyrexian Soulgorger
over at the Moon Stax thread. hmmm...
im just a bit positive that we can use this as a threat
or pet in this deck. what are your thought guys?
thanks
^_^

[NihilObstat]

We can use both Sylvan Library and Soulgorger, but we would have to think about our deck in a different way, really different, than what Berserk Stompy is like. Which is tinny creatures, lands, and pumps, that's it! ^^
No drawing spells, or anything else.

Sylvan Library would probably increase our winning chances against control, tempo, and maybe aggro, but not Combo, which is our only really sucky matchup. And we really don't need any extra help against tempo and most of control, other than decks Like enchantress and Stax, which don't control, but stop the game, and against those, they are so slow finishing the game, that we usually just sit down, and wait for our Reverent Silence or our Seeds of Innocence to pop up by themselves and win us the game most of the time. Anyway, I wouldn't completely discard Sylvan.

Soulgorger on the other side, would be our only cc3 creature, and sure he's big by himself, and we would only need to Berserk him for the win most games, but there will be many situation wen you play it and then they destroy your other, or your other 2 creatures easily, and you'll loose the card to its own ability. I could consider it sideboard against some matchups but then there's not usually room for something like this in our side.
Nice idea anyway, and I would run it for fun, indeed, but not for competitive.

To JohnnyCage, the problem with troll is its 3cc which is just horrible for our deck, it means not attacking with that creature until turn 4 and again as I believe, our only terrible pairing is pure combo which means turn 1 or 2, maybe 3 kill, and we have to be as fast as them. That's only my point of view, and maybe that's because in my close metagame there is so much combo :S :( hehe oh well ! ^^

[JohnnyCage]

The list that otter was working on I think they are on page 10 or 11 used ranger and were equally as fast his numbers showed. He also ran esg. But the list looked more promising against zoo however he had to mulligan more aggressively. I think library in a list with esg ran as a two of in the "open" slots could be very strong depending on the meta. I have been toying with an older style list running vine dryad and library.

[KBH]

I don't get to play Legacy very much. Can someone tell me how they play the various matchups? I played a few games and simply couldn't beat Merfolk

EDIT: against Reanimator I am pretty sure Faerie Macabre is NOT the answer because they play Thoughtseize. Plus you basically need to have it in hand turn 1 or 2 anyway so it is no more or less conditional than Leyline of the Void. Sure, Leyline can be bounced, but it will likely cost them a turn which is all you can ask for. Faerie DOES work though, just so vulnerable to hand disruption.

One thing of note is that they tend to go for Sphinx instead of Blazing Archon (who, unless I'm mistaken is an autoloss) and you can occasionally race Sphinx since he doesn't stop (Berserked) trample damage past 6.

Secondly, if you don't run some number of Gleeful Sabotages main deck then you autolose to Moat. Also, if you do run some Gleeful Sabotages main deck it helps alot vs Karmic Justice, because if you Reverent Silence that thing, you wipe your board. I've been playing online the past few days and Reverent Silence is not available but Tranquility is about the same. I think there is a 2 cc sweeper but it doesn't hit Auras so not as good.

I'm starting to see the power of Invigorate -- if you get a two Invig hand you keep and pray for Berserk lol

PS if you play vs someone using the Shocklands its really hard to lose because they are probably at 12 from their own mana base counting fetchlands

[paeng4983]

ok. here's my two cents for this thread.

ANT/ belcher/ and other combo decks
one of the worst deck/s to face if you're playing berserk stompy.
your only hope in winning against a combo deck iis to kill him fast before
they go-off. solidarity would be the easiest. just bring in Gaea's Blessing.

affinity
game one, expect that it will be a race between his metal peers
against your pets. you'll have to watch-out cranial plating, A.raveger,
MOE and ethersworn canonnist in their MD. E. canonist will hurt you
a lot because it will halt most of your pump spells.
seed of innocence, naturalize, Seal of Primordium, viridian zealot will
help your campaign against them. hmm if you want to go more aggresive,
use hidden guerrilla. null rod will totally shut this down.

counterTOP (whether w/ N.O or none)
if he manage to set this up, then your chance of winning is very slim.
rushwood legate can sometimes help you in delivering early life damge.
krosan grip will help you alot in destroying his counterbalance. choke
can be a big help in keeping his islands at bay. if incase your opponent
has that 3/4 lifelink rihino (i forgot the name) make sure that his best
friend (kavu predator) is on your table. NO-prog is a head ache. i normally
use fog to surprise his 10/10 beast. i suddenly remembered, his progenitus just
watched my 18/9 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk who then delivered the final blow for the win!

rock (bg, bgw, bw)
this type of deck has a ton of disrupt (duress, thoughtseize, hymn)
and removals (stp, smother, vindicate, deeds, etc). creatures with
shroud (silhana and boggle) with rancor on them or those creatures
with flying will be your key players. wrap in vigor is a good card if
you're playing in a pernicious deeds or Eng. Explosives or nev's disk
or any mass removal meta in which you can regenerate your creatures.
fog also helps me in avoiding lethal combat damage.

sliver
equipped with a bunch of +1/+1 and shroud and flying effects, your pets must be
that fast in order for you to win game one. of course the road to victory will not be
that easy for your team because sliver deck has: FOW, daze, counterTOP and STP.
fog and rushwood legate are the cards i normally use when im facing such.

dark depths
a very brutal combination from a land and a creature cards. if you're not running any wasteland or
any land destroyer card in your MD, for sure you'll be praying hard that he wont pull his
combo on you. pithing needle will stop that vampire from removing the counters off depths.
compost can be used to help you draw cards. personally i'll just use fog, and pray that my pump
spells are present when i do my thing.

reanimator
iona and steel sphinx and Emperyal archangel will be your worst opponent on the opposite table.
reanimator's strength is from their yard. so yard removals will be your key cards in winning against this
deck. tormod's crypt, relic of progenitus, and wheel of sun and moon are some of the cards that you can
use.

angel stax, dragon stompy, chalice aggro.
(and other decks that utilize trinisphere and chalice of the void)
COTV at one will pretty much lock you out. trinisphere will keep your
spells at bay. among these decks, angel stax (or Armageddon stax)
is the worst match up among them all. ghostly prison, Armageddon
with tabernacle pendrel vale or simply the magus of tabernacle, working
together will definitely be a menace to your berserk stompy.
seed of innocence will help you bury those artifacts. regarding about the
enchantments, well - if you forgot to put some reverent or any enchantment
removal in your SB, chances of winning is again a slim one.

enchantress
reverent silence or tranquility will save you ass.
if you dont have any of these two, then it will be
just a walk in the park win for the enchantress.

burn/ tarmo sligh
it's going to be a good race in game one. game two, expect pyroclasm,
fire sprout and volcanic fallout from his side ready to sweep your entire
army. wrap in vigor will keep your pets alive from his inferno. hidden gibbons
can be use against this ton of instant burn spells.

merfolks
the blue team will be depending on the +1/+1 effect from the 12 lords that it gives.
and just like with sligh, it will be a good race to watch. game two, expect propaganda,
submerge and other creature control spell. and as for your side, bring in rushwood legate
and fog. expect Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, silhana and scryb sprites to deliver the goods for you.
scryb ranger will be a big factor for you troops if you're facing this type of deck.

fish
watch-out for the spellstutter sprite, STP, and his counter wall. other fish build has trinket mage
fishing out Eng. explosives, thus wiping your entire board of 1cc pets. rushwood legate is what
i normally bring-in. seedtime can also be of help.

dredge
if, on your game one, you manage to bring out a bunch of pump spells plus berserk, then good for you.
or else be prepared for his battalion of zombies. tormod's, relic of progenitus are some of the common
cards that can be of help. wheel of sun and moon, fog and Spore Frog were some of the cards that im using.

MBC
its' main game plan is to disrupt your entire hand in 3 or 4 turns. then his creatures
will finish the job( nyx, bob, hypy). compost will be a big factor in refilling your
hands. smother, edict, doom blade are just some of his creature removals. silhana
(because of its shroud and only creatures w/ flying can block him) can save you
from his spot removals. hmmm creatures such as Whirling Dervish and other
pro-black green creatures can be use in reinforcing your decks.

rgw zoo
its going to be a showdown between his team (kird ape, tarmo, kotr, bolt, helix)
against your team (kavu, invigorate, berserk). spot removals are the only problems
in his deck. PTE, bolt and helix. helix and bolt sometimes can be use to finish you off.
in my experience, im just using fog and wrap in vigor. silhana and skulk most of the time delivers
the W for me.


:P

:eek::eek:

[KBH]

Thanks paeng that was awesome! I do feel like you're telling me that my best bet is to play with a 30 card sideboard though!

[thorin_the_king]

hi there, i just have something i want to share with all of you, berserkers :)

yesterday i played against someone who was running a landfall berserk deck that abused crop rotation, and it did very well. just sharing his list with you to see if it can be any useful.

Spells (16)

4x Adventuring gear
4x Berserk
4x Path to Exile
4x Crop Rotation

Creatures (24)

2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Kird Ape
3x Loam Lion
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Plated Geopede
4x Steppe Lynx
4x Wild Nacatl

Lands (19)

4x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Arid Mesa
2x Plateau
3x Savannah
2x Taiga
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

[Gui]

I'm quite certain that against reanimator, Faerie is the best bet. They run Thoughtseize, sure, but it's the only disruption against it they get. They can't counter it, and a counter or duress in hand is what they consider good enough to go against us. And some don't even use 4-of thoughseize...

2-of Gleeful MD or Krosan MD is more often good than it's a waste; almost every deck got something you'd like to kill with it. I suggest using them, or at least zealot, but I preffer straight Krosan. Even @ the 15 forest list. The Gw list of course uses 4-of pridemage.

[KBH]

I'm quite certain that against reanimator, Faerie is the best bet. They run Thoughtseize, sure, but it's the only disruption against it they get. They can't counter it, and a counter or duress in hand is what they consider good enough to go against us. And some don't even use 4-of thoughseize...

2-of Gleeful MD or Krosan MD is more often good than it's a waste; almost every deck got something you'd like to kill with it. I suggest using them, or at least zealot, but I preffer straight Krosan. Even @ the 15 forest list. The Gw list of course uses 4-of pridemage.

Against Dream Halls combo its Grip or nothing since they can Force Naturalize or make any counter a Force with Dream Halls. And you are guaranteed to be able to cast Grip thanks to Dream Halls.

And Dream Halls combo seems kinda popular at least on MTGO

If they just drop Progenitus instead, you can race him some of the time.

[Combo Winter]

This is my landfall list its desinged to be as fast as possible and abuses the interaction between landfall and ranger.

4 berserk
2 double cleave
4 stp
4 might of old krosa
4 rancor
4 invigorate

1 isumaru
4 loam lion
4 steppe lynx
3 quirion ranger
4 kavu
3 goyf
4 ledgewalker

10 green fetch
3 savannah
3 forest

side
4 teag
4 quasli pridemage
4 ravenous trap
3 jitte

Stp supporting kavu is also a sick reason to splash white. And the fact that you the raw power of the deck goes up a fair amount because you can run guys who are much bigger than the mono green version can which speeds up the deck. Also i try to play no cards in the board that slow down the kill. Also 6 berserks is nice.

[KBH]

Are you guys sure ANT is a bad matchup? I wouldn't say its favorable but..

If you get Berserk, all they really do is sit there turn 1 and 2 so you can get them down to 4-5 pretty easily. At the point what are they going to do?

The biggest problem I had was not knowing they were ANT game 1 and therefore not going all out because I was building a lethal Berserk the next turn.

Granted, sans Berserk its a little hopeless but you can still do a good deal of damage and put a crimp on their draw plan.

[thorin_the_king]

what do you rhink of this new card?

Kiln Fiend
1R
Creature — Elemental Beast
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Kiln Fiend gets +3/+0 until end of turn.
1 / 2

berserk+berserk in response to 1st one results in a 28/2 trampler :)

it goes very well with pump spells, what do you think?

[KBH]

Yeah it kills me that that guy isn't green, although I guess he is more in flavor for red

[eq.firemind]

Kiln Fiend +any pump + Berserk = 20/X with trample. Also, Land Grant and/or Manamorphose is free pump for Fiend. Seems to be VERY good. And red already has a good pump spell: Reckless Charge (Haste gives a nice tempo boost and flashback has acceptable cost).
Fiend shares one very important aspect with Kavu Predator: it can be pumped for free when you're building lethal Berserk attack. Another creature with build-in pump is Steppe Lynx. And white already have StP to freepump Predator.
I'll try to mix all that juicy interactions into a deck later. Something like this:

2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
4 Land Grant

4 Manamorphose

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Kiln Fiend

4 Reckless Charge
4 Berserk
2 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
3 Swords to Plowshares

Maybe even throw Crop Rotation+Flagstones of Trokair in 'cause it pumps both Lynx and Fiend.

[DrJones]

Kiln Fiend + Giant Growth[cards] + [cards]Berserk = 20/X with trample. Also, Land Grant and/or Manamorphose is free pump for Fiend. Seems to be VERY good. And red already has a good pump spell: Reckless Charge (Haste gives a nice tempo boost and flashback has acceptable cost).
Fiend shares one very important aspect with Kavu Predator: it can be pumped for free when you're building lethal Berserk attack. Another creature with build-in pump is Steppe Lynx. And white already have StP to freepump Predator.
I'll try to mix all that juicy interactions into a deck later. Something like this:

2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
4 Land Grant

4 Manamorphose

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Kiln Fiend

4 Reckless Charge
4 Berserk
2 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
3 Swords to Plowshares

Maybe even throw Crop Rotation+Flagstones of Trokair in 'cause it pumps both Lynx and Fiend.Dryad Arbor, you need Dryad Arbor in that list.

[eq.firemind]

Dryad Arbor, you need Dryad Arbor in that list.
Too bad it's not a spell...

[NihilObstat]

Really fun build, it looks great, but you have no Shroud creatures :S

I would at least cut down Skarrgan and Nacatl to play some enemy shroud creatures, to use depending on the pairing. If there's no problem then go for it. The build looks really fast ;)

[NecroYawgmoth]

...maybe Double Cleave for the red version of the deck?

[KBH]

Against ANT I can tell you that Predator and (presumably) Kiln Fiend won't help. You need to try for a Berserk for double digit damage on turn 2. Otherwise its lay dorks and hope he gives you a turn 3 in which case he can rarely win since you should just fire everything you have at him down to low life

I could see Fiend helping to race a Progenitus though, because in that matchup the problem is Berserk itself getting Forced

EDIT: and Brute Force might be better than Reckless Charge

[Vacrix]

solidarity would be the easiest. just bring in Gaea's Blessing.
Lol.. Fail.. You do realize that we Solidarity players can respond to the trigger right?


I do feel like you're telling me that my best bet is to play with a 30 card sideboard though!
That pretty much sums it up.


Brute Force might be better than Reckless Charge
Agreed.
The red splash looks good. Why doesn't it see that much play? Wasteland?

[eq.firemind]

@ NihilObstat
Skulk was indeed a little weak so I'll try something else in that slot.
@ Yawgmoth'sWill
Double Cleave is only Berserk No. 5-8 for 2 important reasons:
1) 1 mana difference is HUGE.
2) Trample is a big plus 'cause not being able to combo through Noble Hierarch/Cursecatcher/Nimble Mongoose/insert-your-1-drop-here is bad.
And I don't feel the need of Zerks 5-8.
@ KBH
Reckless Charge >>> Brute Force.
If you have two 1-drops and Charge in your opening 7, you can deal some boombastic amount of damage on turn 2 thanks to haste.
Like, Land, 1-drop, pass, Lynx, fetch, crack it, Charge, swing for about 10 damage.
Also, this deck, like Sligh, throws it's hand in opp's face very fast, so reusable pump comes is handy.

Land Grant shows worse results than I expected. It needs to be changed to something else. I tried Crop Rotation approach and it looks very promissing. Steppe Lynx becomes a real monster with it and it still feeds Kiln Fiend for 0 mana. Also, it enables some nice 1-ofs like Barbarian Ring or Centaur Garden (with all that fetches/Manamorphoses/Rotations threshold is not a problem).
Sometimes I felt that Street Wraith would be just better than some of my cards: Might of Old Krosa, Skarrgan Pit-Skulk and sometimes Wild Nacatl. With the deck's blistering speed 2 life lost is almost unnoticable and there are already 4 Manamorphose, so just cantripping into the strongest combinations of cards may be a way to go.
Also, Predator+Invigorate thing starts to bug me a little 'cause without Predator Invigorate is just bad and Predator without Invigorate is even worse. And StP without Predator is worse than other possible removal/burn. The deck wants to generally faster than average Berserk Stompy, so it must be consistent to do its thing on daily basis. For example, you have 10 fetches and 4 Crop Rotations (anon-fetches are worse, but still do a thing) to pump Lynx for free. You have 4 Manamorphose and 4 Crop Rotations to pump Fiend for 0 mana and about 10 other spells that help your gameplan (i.e. deal damage/help to deal damage) AND pump Fiend. But all that "opp gains life" thing is only works with 4 cards in the deck. Otherwise, it just works against you.
Land, Lynx, go, fetch, crack, Crop Rotation=>fetch, crack, pump/another Rotation, Berserk and you done it on turn 2.
Kiln Fiend, 2 spells/single pump, Berserk and you done it on turn 3.
Both Lynx and Fiend can consistently deal 8 damage from only a single Berserk - the thing Predator will never do.
This all leads me to the conclusion that Predator+opp.gain.life theme should be replaced with something more consistent, something that works to advance your gameplan in any circumbstances.
Maybe Sligh approach for reach/removal would play out better. Or maybe even a mix. Berserk Sligh sounds cool!

Ancient Grudge is great sideboard option for this deck - it deals with every pesky artifact we fear, 2-for-1 and pumps Fiend 2 times! Maybe Ray of Revelation is an option if your meta have some Stax and Enchantress.

[KBH]

EQ, my idea of huge damage on turn 2 is winning. As in dude+Bounty of the Hunt+Double Berserk

If you want to attack with two guys on turn 2 you could just play Elvish Spirit Guide (or Vine Dryad/Skyshroud Cutter but..)

As for Double Cleave, it might be a Berserk complement but certainly no substitute

Its three problems

1. Costs 2 mana, so harder to combine with additional pump spells

2. Doesn't impart evasion of any kind

3. Does nothing in multiples (or very little since you could technically play a second one on another creature IF you have 4 mana)

That last is very important because as I mentioned above, 2 mana+Double Berserk wins the game with Bounty of the Hunt or Invigorate barring some response

EDIT: also, don't sell Invigorate short. First of all, 1 extra damage for free isn't as terrible as it sounds initially and secondly it generates more damage if it helps get Pit-Skulk through or it if saves a creature from removal during combat thereby allowing them to deal their damage. Finally, it is hard-castable eventually which DOES sometimes happen.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

It's interesting how the white splash can use Double cleave as well, and I might do something with that since I love Pridemage and Horizon canopy.

[Combo Winter]

If you play the landfall guys and a splash you probably want qurion ranger to protect from wastes and help landfall.

[Nest]

This is my first go at a Legacy deck so any advice would be appreciated.
I've never seen Viashino Slaughtermaster used but i like him, what do you guys think?

Creatures:
4 Viashino Slaughtermaster
4 Talara's Battalion
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Skyshroud Elite

Spells:
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Manamorphose
3 Lotus Petal
4 Rancor
2 Vines of Vastwood

Land:
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Forest
2 Mountans

[paeng4983]

@ nest - maybe you forgot to include kavu predator

[Nest]

@ nest - maybe you forgot to include kavu predator

oh ya... good bye Talara's Battalion.

[NihilObstat]

I would also cut down the Skyshroud, and maybe even the Nettles. What are your chances if you are facing a deck like Zoo?? Or even just Sligh, or something with STP and a couple Boomerang effects?? Your creatures will just get blown away. I would really consider getting some enemy shroud critters, or at least some unblockable ones like Skarrgan Pit-skulk, or even Scryb Sprites, all that, I believe would be better for your deck than simple strong attackers. Just test it out ;)
Also, Lotus Petal should REALLY be elvish spirit guide ^^ well, not really since it gives you red also, but I just really love making my opponent's blue card remains in their hands uselessly, and pointlessly there, hehe.

[Ozymandias]

I just picked up all the cards but berserk for this deck for chump change, and I am trying to get those actively.

Here is my proposed list.

4 Slippery Bogle
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
2 Seal of Strength
2 Vines of the Vastwood
15 Forest
1 Pendlehaven
SB:
4 Faerie Macabre/Tormod's Crypt/Leyline of the Void(Yeah, mull to it, bitches.)
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Krosan Grip
3?

I wanted to be almost completely wasteproof, but Pendlehaven seems like it's probably worth it with all of those 1/1s. I wanted to cram with all the evasive guys I could, so Scryb Sprites got the last nod. What should my last 3 SB slots be?

[KBH]

I haven't tried Shusher extensively, but I think he is anti Chalice and anti Counterbalance right? I don't think hes good enough vs counterspells since its your Berserks and other pump they'll counter anyway.

So, to me, Gleeful Sabotage or Naturalize or Krosan Grip are better options against Chalice and Counterbalance. They also hit Vials, Jittes and other assorted stuff for what thats worth, which is relevant if you run a couple "utility" spots maindeck.


I would also cut down the Skyshroud, and maybe even the Nettles.

Those guys are very important for the 2 power. I think you can play them AND the other creatures you mention, like Ozymandia's list right above me. If anything I think Kavu Predator is ridiculously slow AND totally vulnerable against too many decks and probably should be sideboard material for against Zoo, Sligh, etc where he has a reasonable chance to become that 5/5 trampler.

[KBH]

Extirpate is a brilliant idea but it doesn't stop the Counterbalance triggers right?

[mikez0r]

correct it doesn't.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Here's my version of this deck that I've been playing causally with. If anyone pilots it in their local tournament please private msg me the results.

Mana 18:
4 Verdant Catacombs (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Verdant Catacombs)
4 bayou (http://deckbox.org/mtg/bayou)
4 lotus petal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/lotus petal)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Elvish Spirit Guide) (alternative berserk target + daze protection)
1 swamp (http://deckbox.org/mtg/swamp)
1 forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/forest)

Beats 16:
4 Slippery Bogle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Slippery Bogle)
2 Silhana Ledgewalker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Silhana Ledgewalker)
4 Xantid Swarm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Xantid Swarm)
3 Eternal Witness (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eternal Witness)
3 Dark Confidant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dark Confidant)

Pump 14:
4 Berserk (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Berserk)
4 Might of Old Krosa (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Might of Old Krosa)
4 Invigorate (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Invigorate)
4 Rouse (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rouse)

Draw 8:
4 Manamorphose (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Manamorphose)
4 Night's Whisper (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Night's Whisper)

Disruption and Protection:
4 Extirpate (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Extirpate)

Basically the goal of this deck is to attack once for lethal, where traditional stompy whittles away at their health.

Three concerns in this deck:
1) You don't want your Berserk to be countered.
2) You don't want your creatures to be swords'ed or otherwise killed.
3) Drawing Berserk.

How to address these concerns:
Concern 1) Play Xantid Swarm so that you can cast berserk during your attack step and swing for lethal. The other option is cast berserk but before you pass priority to your opponent and while berserk is on the stack dump all your pump spells on the stack (this might need to be done during your main phase if you have Might of Old Krosa) then still not having passed priority finally cast Extirpate on something it doesn't matter what.

Concern 2) Play berserk on creatures that can't be swords'ed or if you feel like you don't have time to wait for them and must combo out on a ESG, Confidant or Eternal Witness then use Xantid Swarm as your protection from swords or other tricks.

Concern 3) Either get lucky and draw it like a champ or use mulliganing to your advantage. Remember that Witness can act like another copy of Berserk. I haven't play tested Grim Tutor, you should consider it as an option. There's a few ways the deck lets you draw into berserk, Night's Whisper, Manamorphose, and Dark Confidant, make no mistake you must draw at least 1 berserk to win.

Interesting take on the deck, but Night's Whisper would probably be better off as another pump spell. You have Dark Confidant and Eternal Witness which should be more than enough. Vines of the Vastwood would contribute to your protection plan and doubles as pump so I think it really fits here. Your build probably wouldn't fare to well against most decks in the mid game and Night's Whisper is just that. I don't like it here even if it draws you into Rouses or Invigorates. I would rather just have Vines in my hand.

[AlterEgo]

The other option is cast berserk but before you pass priority to your opponent and while berserk is on the stack dump all your pump spells on the stack (this might need to be done during your main phase if you have Might of Old Krosa) then still not having passed priority finally cast Extirpate on something it doesn't matter what.

How's that gonna stop them countering Berserk at all?
This would work only against people not knowing the rules. I would just let you resolve your Extirpate and THEN counter Berserk (unless you happened to target the Force of Will/Counterspell/Mindbreak Trap/Daze I had a copy of in my hand).

Honestly, in this case I think you might be better of with Cabal Therapy.

[Galrael]

I feel like Xantid Swarm could definately work in this deck even in mono green. Not sure what I would cut for it though. Most likely Nettle Sentinel. What would you guys cut in this deck list.

4 Slippery Bogle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Kavu Predator
4 Nettle Sentinel

4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
3 Vines of Vastwood

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
14 Forest

It feels like Nettle Sentinel should be dropped for Xantid Swarm. I feel like the extra Protection from counters and removal would help me feel safe when going off big on creatures like Kavu. Mikezorz post made me think hard about this addition.

[Skeggi]

The other option is cast berserk but before you pass priority to your opponent and while berserk is on the stack dump all your pump spells on the stack (this might need to be done during your main phase if you have Might of Old Krosa) then still not having passed priority finally cast Extirpate on something it doesn't matter what.
How does Extirpate make Berserk uncounterable?

[Gui]

Best reason to play black are Dark Confidant and the Disruptions. I personally preffer Duress, just to deny possible 2-to-1's and counters vs. berserk.

[umbowta]

How does Extirpate make Berserk uncounterable?@mikez0r, After Extirpate resolves the rest of your spells are still sitting on the stack unresolved and waiting to be countered.

Come on, Skeggi. You know it doesn't. Someone just busted open a whole tube of noobpaste and got it all over the thread.

[KBH]

@mikez0r, After Extirpate resolves the rest of your spells are still sitting on the stack unresolved and waiting to be countered.

Come on, Skeggi. You know it doesn't. Someone just busted open a whole tube of noobpaste and got it all over the thread.

He had me going for a second, because I forgot you can't respond to your own Extirpate either.

[Magic-Style]

Hi everyone !

I play this 3c Berserk Stompy for 3 years,http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31912

what do you think about my new deck list with Kiln Fiend.

3 savannah
3 taiga
1 plateau
1 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath

4 lotus petal
4 elvish spirit guide

4 kavu predator
4 kiln fiend
4 wild nacatl
4 qasali pridemage

2 skyshroud cutter
4 berserk
4 invigorate
2 vine of vastwood
3 rancor
4 swords to plowshares
1 fling


sideboard :

4 vexing shuser
3 gaddock teeg
3 compost
3 seed of innocence
2 nature's claim

Sry for my english, i'm french...

[NihilObstat]

Hi Etienne, I've seen all your decks on deckcheck and you seem to achieve pretty nice results with it, so congratulations !!! ;)

I have also been testing a 3c Berserk on workstation a little bit, but I always end up bringing in at least Silhannas. I mean, deffinitely running Nacatls is a looot faster, but I am sure that many times you just wished you had some Shroud creatures, don't you??? I mean, and specially in your build, because it looks like you want to play your 2CC killer first turn, and try to kill turn 2, which means a lot of risky removal in the way.

I will have to test your list because it looks good, but at least as I see it, Skyshroud cutter, and 4x Swords seems too much for me, what do you do with them when you don't draw Kavu Predator, or when you draw him, get him up to 18/18 without pumps, because you play Cutter and a Swords, but then they "boomerang" it, or they exile it??? I would prefer to run more pumps instead of the cutter, or a couple of shroud creatures, but maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks a lot for the info!!! I'm not english either, I'm spanish ^^ so I hope we us each other in a tournament some time.
By the way, did you come to GP madrid ??

[Gui]

Hi everyone !

I play this 3c Berserk Stompy for 3 years,http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31912


Are you saying you are Etienne or that you play his list? xD

If you are, good news for you: you are in the first page already =P

Imho, the best part of that list is the strenght your creatures gets, being 3/3 or more quite often, and the fact that it's got bersetk 5-6 with fling. =)

[Cavius The Great]

Hi everyone !

I play this 3c Berserk Stompy for 3 years,http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31912

what do you think about my new deck list with Kiln Fiend.

3 savannah
3 taiga
1 plateau
1 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath

4 lotus petal
4 elvish spirit guide

4 kavu predator
4 kiln fiend
4 wild nacatl
4 qasali pridemage

2 skyshroud cutter
4 berserk
4 invigorate
2 vine of vastwood
3 rancor
4 swords to plowshares
1 fling


sideboard :

4 vexing shuser
3 gaddock teeg
3 compost
3 seed of innocence
2 nature's claim

Sry for my english, i'm french...

Dude, this deck is so gosu. Idk about the Swords to plwoshares though, tehy should probably be moar flings.

[paeng4983]

@cavious
STPs are there for removing any blockers (especially if you're about to go berserk). And at the same time it has a good interaction with kavu.

[Eddy Wally]

@cavious
STPs are there for removing any blockers (especially if you're about to go berserk). And at the same time it has a good interaction with kavu.

Why did you choose swords to plowshares over path to exile?

[Dilettante]

Why did you choose swords to plowshares over path to exile?

You give your opponent tempo in a direction that the deck is not designed to dance around. That's the opposite of what you want to do. You can do outlier amounts of damage with Kavu Predator/kiln fiend/berserk, so life gain is not as painful as them having an extra accelerant generally. Path is better in some situations, but only on the turn you plan to kill them, not 'setup' turns.

This is the list I have sitting around presently, which... is pretty much Zoo with berserk.

4x Wild Nactl
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Kiln Fiend
4x Kavu Predator

2x Vines of Vastwood
4x Berserk
4x Invigorate
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Swords to plowshares
2x Fireblast

2x Taiga
2x Plateau
1x Savannah
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Arid Mesa
3x Windswept Heath
2x Forest
2x Mountain
2x Plains

Sideboard
4x Krosan Grip
4x Mana Tithe
4x Path to Exile
3x Pithing Needle

[Gui]

I still like tarmogoyf on 3c versions running that amount of different grave possibilities... 3/4 turn 2 is something I like on the previous version...

[Galrael]

I had a question about scryb ranger. I'm assuming as usual it's return a forest to your hand ability is unusable when it comes into play since the creature has summoning sickness but I just might be a complete idiot and that's not the case. I'm debating it's addition to the deck based on this fact.

[Moczoc]

You can use the ability under summoning sickness because it doesn't require to tap Scryb Ranger.

[Galrael]

Ok so I'm debating the white splash in this deck after a decent amount of testing. I'm debating what to put into the deck besides StP. I'm debating jotun grunt or mother of runes. I feel that the evasion offered by mother is huge plus she's a huge target for eating removal which leaves my other creatures open. Jotun is a great target for pumps and berserk. Any other thoughts on the white splash?

[Magic-Style]

With white splash, you can play Qasali, Gaddok Teeg (SB), jutun grunt, double glave, Fiery Justice...


Are you saying you are Etienne or that you play his list? xD

yes it's me. ;)


If you are, good news for you: you are in the first page already =P

THX !! ^^

I no finish to test with Kind Fiend, i test for the BOM4 in france. I have many probleme with this beast, it's bad with cutter, rancor or other summun card.

[paeng4983]

@ eddy wally
STP is much better card choice than PTE. why STP?
PTE gives your opponent an extra land. not just a
land but a basic land. having another basic land gives
your opponent a tempo. basic land also fixed the mana
base of your opponent especially if he runs a 2-color
deck combination. lastly we all know that wasteland
cannot destroy a basic land. :) whereas with STP, it
does not give him an extra land. and if your opponent
is running a 2 or 3 color deck, there might be a probability
that you'll screw him. also the effect that STP has (giving
extra life points to your opponent), actually works well
with your kavu predator. how? - for each life he gains
you put +1/+1 counters on kavu predator.

@galrael
my suggestion, for your MD you can include qasali pridemage
and for your SB, teeg. for added control element - you can add
for your MD aven mindcensor. if you are really afraid of the removals,
you can use vines of the vastwood and/ or slippery boggle. or simply
use an evasion, use a creature that flies. scryb ranger or scryb sprites
will do. :)

about the kiln fiend, i testplayed it and it does not do good. i think its not a good addition
to the deck. just like magic-style said, "it's bad with cutter, rancor or other summun card"
. meaning it will not have any plus plus if you'll just play a creature, an enchantment
or an artifact. berserk stompy relies on the speed of your creatures' paws (or punches as you may say it).
berserk stompy is never meant to be a set up deck.

but personally speaking, i'd still prefer to run the mono green build.
why mono green? - i really hate it when my opponent destroys
my early drop dual land and after that the next thing you'll
know is that your already experiencing mana screw. with
mono green you wont have to worry of your mana base.
though my problem with mono green is this, most of my creatures
are prone to removals. and if you'll try to check some pages back
slippery boggle was discussed. at G with shroud but a body of a 1/1
is aahhhh.... hmmmm... :rolleyes: :confused: looks weak.
slippery boggle is better if you'll go for the win using the pump spells and berserk.
im thinking of using this build for my mono green build.

4 scryb sprites
3 slippery boggle
3 llanowar augur
4 skarggan pit skulk
4 jungle lion
4 silhana ledgewalker
4 kavu predator

4 rancor
4 might of old krosa
4 berserk
3 seal of strength
4 invigorate

10 forest
7 green fetches

SB
2 fog
3 tormod's crpyt
3 seal of primordium
4 rushwood legate
2 wrap in vigor
1 bind

my game plan here is to use 7 shroud effect (slippery and silhana) or the 4 evasion effect (sprites)
also to abuse the unblockable ability of skarggan (especially if it grows big).
hmmm... probably get a 4 to 8 life points off his life from jungle lion and sprites and kavu predator.
and utilize 22 pump effects (llanowar augur, berserk, rancor, seal of strength, might, and invigorate).

feel free guys to say your comment here.
thanks ^_^

[paeng4983]

mods pls delete this post.
for some reason, i double my post.
thanks. ^_^

by the way, magic-style good luck on your BOM4.
make all of us berserk-fanatics proud!
^_^

[NihilObstat]

The real good thing about Kiln Fiend is that, just as the Tarmogoyf some people run, or the Jotun Grunt you may play in white, he's one of the few creatures that go really well with a single Berserk, and not extra pumping ^^ A single Berserk gives him an extra 7 damage, not bad is it ?

[Slayer001]

kiln fiend is absolutely crazy with invogarate, + 7/+4 not bad at all for a free pump =)
A berserk coupled with invigorate on an unblocked fiend is almost game, this can happen as fast as turn 2

turn 1: mountain, lotus petal or elvish spirit guide --> sac petal or remove ESG --> kiln fiend
turn 2: forest, attack with fiend --> invogate --> berserk --> opponent at 1 life

with might of old krosa (played at main phase) it's game but he can be blocked then and dunno if trample dmg for 2 will be enough, prob on turn 2 it will be =)

[Gui]

kiln fiend is absolutely crazy with invogarate, + 7/+4 not bad at all for a free pump =)
A berserk coupled with invigorate on an unblocked fiend is almost game, this can happen as fast as turn 2

turn 1: mountain, lotus petal or elvish spirit guide --> sac petal or remove ESG --> kiln fiend
turn 2: forest, attack with fiend --> invogate --> berserk --> opponent at 1 life

with might of old krosa (played at main phase) it's game but he can be blocked then and dunno if trample dmg for 2 will be enough, prob on turn 2 it will be =)

My suggestion is to play Kiln Fiend with a full set of Vines of Vastwood, since it will protect your creature while it get pumped... Turn 3 with vastwood and any other pump + zerk would be game, trample damage should be enough and you don't even need to rely on petal/ESG. Just remember to let every pump spell resolve one each time... Oh, and if you don't have the other pump, Vines kicked + zerk shall still get 22 dmg...

[KBH]

This is probably a bad idea, but has anyone ever thought of Vintara Snapper? He kinda sorta has troll shroud and is more aggressive than the Bogle.

Of course, you wouldn't be able to tap out to Berserk him which would suck..

Again, probably a bad idea but I'm surprised I've never seen anyone try him ever

[paeng4983]

My suggestion is to play Kiln Fiend with a full set of Vines of Vastwood, since it will protect your creature while it get pumped... Turn 3 with vastwood and any other pump + zerk would be game, trample damage should be enough and you don't even need to rely on petal/ESG. Just remember to let every pump spell resolve one each time... Oh, and if you don't have the other pump, Vines kicked + zerk shall still get 22 dmg...
well in theory, klin is a good card choice. but - have you used it in a tournament? i bet this card will suck big time.

[Magic-Style]

Hi !

I play that in BOM4 in France :

3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
2 Forest
4 Wooded
4 Windsepth

4 Lotus Petal
4 ESG

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kind Fiend

2 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
3 Rancor
4 STP
2 Vine of Vastewood
1 Reckless Charge
1 Fling

SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Goddok Teeg
4 Nature's Claim
3 Seeds of innocence
1 Vine of Vastewood


I do 5 win, 2 draw, 2 loose.

Lose VS Goblin and Astral . (goblin is very god matchup, but 2 times full lands...)

Draw VS Bant and Togless (1 more turn VS bant, i must win...)

Win VS 4 Survival !! (1 aggro, 2 Loyal Retainer, 1 Volrath's Shapeshifter) and 1 Elf aggro/combo.


Sorry, i can't repport more, it's hard in english...

[NihilObstat]

Vintara Snapper would suck almost in any kind of situation, but then again with the new M10 rules, you burn don't suffer from mana so we can tap all the lands out in response to removal XD he seems more fun than anything, but oh well ^^

Thanks for the report Villani, but one question. Wouldn't you prefer running those 2 Cutters as 2 more Vines of Vastwood. I mean Cutter is suchhhh a bad card without Kavu, he's horrible, and even with Kavu. You play him free, and then removal to Kavu so he gains 5 life for free, which doesn't happen with Invigorate because you can target a different creature for the pump. I just don't like him at all, sorry :p
I like the reckless charge you have added, but I think 2 Flings and 4 Rancor are necessary.

[paeng4983]

hey Villani, how did the klin do?
does anyone here used klin in their local turneys?
how did it do?