[Deck] Berserk Stompy

[paeng4983]

i just came from a tournament were 66 players participated.
well i lost my every 1st assignment (sui) because he was able to hymn my two lands.
and from there i never recovered.
after that i managed to win 4 straight (sui, GWb control, wizard, zoo) before lossing miserably to an aggro loam
deck because of his COTV at one. *sigh*
it really destroyed my troops hope of going into the play-offs.

does anyone here can share their experience about facing an aggro loam?
is it a not so winnable deck?
thanks

[NihilObstat]

I reported a couple pages ago about my experience in GP madrid against aggro-loam, but every one said it was a really easy pairing, and that I just hadn't been lucky enough. I sideboarded Grave hate against them, and that won me some turns, but pointlessly because Devastating dreams, just makes all our dreams vanish into thin air.... I hate that card XD
I'd say we need quite a fast hand against them, dunno. Other than that I don't know what else can we do ^^

[paeng4983]

I reported a couple pages ago about my experience in GP madrid against aggro-loam, but every one said it was a really easy pairing, and that I just hadn't been lucky enough. I sideboarded Grave hate against them, and that won me some turns, but pointlessly because Devastating dreams, just makes all our dreams vanish into thin air.... I hate that card XD
I'd say we need quite a fast hand against them, dunno. Other than that I don't know what else can we do ^^

same here. i hate that card (devasting dreams) as well. it not just f*ck my squad but my lands as well..
ohhh what a crap. how could they say that it was an easy match up for them?
hehehe i guess i have to do more reading about the other decks that are not that rampant. they could really surprise you.

[wcm8]

I've been testing the following build:

13 Lands
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal/ESG
4 Street Wraith

4 Kavu Predator
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf/Quasali Pridemade

4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
2 Vine of Vastwood
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fling

Street Wraith is there to thin your deck. You aren't planning on sticking around long, so the life isn't much of an issue. Kind of makes it like playing a 56 card deck, making it slightly easier to get what you need without investing in a draw engine.

Land Grant pumps your Kiln Fiend, as well as providing further thinning and color fixing as sort of pseudo fetchland. It fetches for a [non-basic] forest, so you can get a Savannah or Taiga as needed. Revealing your hand doesn't really matter in most cases, because the deck is ultra-linear and doesn't really rely on tricks to win.

This deck can win very, very quickly if you get a nuts draw. Changes I would make would balancing the spell slots, perhaps adding more flings, Vines of Vastwood (to protect your win conditions). Also, I haven't done too much testing, so perhaps the land count should be bumped up a bit, but so far it seemed adequate with the Land Grants (REALLY sucks if you're playing against blue though, but then so does the rest of the deck.) Also, for as good as STP is, perhaps just going straight G/R for better consistency would be better, and replace that slot with some sort of burn.

[NihilObstat]

Blue really isn't that bad a pairing if you play mono Green at all, you don't fetch, you don't lose to counter Land Grant, you don't lose to wasteland or stiffle, and we run sideboard enough against Counterbalance. Vexing Shusher in your sideboard also just rocks way too much.
So I really believe that Berserk stompy loses a lot against blue if you play more than one color, but then that's the only advantage the monog build has actually ^^

I have tested 3C, and 2C and you really just shouldn't play Land Grant at all, even with Kiln, it's ridiculous and depressing to lose to a FOW against a Grant first turn when you have no lands. Lets say Grant, ESG and God hand. But, so what? We die to FOW with that card in the deck. Really not worth it, or that's what I think.

Street Wraith sounds fun, but then you'll lose 2 life to draw a land many times, if you don't play Grant, I mean ^^
Lightning bolt doesn't sound right though, why not Might of old Krosa ? LB -3dmg 6dmg w/Kiln Might- 4 dmg 8dmg w/Berserk 22dmg w/Berserk+Kiln



Also, guys, I thought yesterday, why not run 1x Bounty of the Hunt. It seems like a sweet option to me, it is that extra free pump we need many times and 1x shouldn't screw our hand that bad, would it?? In the mono green build I mean.

[wcm8]

Yeah, for that reason I think mono green might be better. Red does have some nice spells like Fling, burn for reach, and Kiln Fiend can really ramp up damage quickly... But perhaps for consistency and 'safety' the green version should be what's played.

[NihilObstat]

Yeah, for that reason I think mono green might be better. Red does have some nice spells like Fling, burn for reach, and Kiln Fiend can really ramp up damage quickly... But perhaps for consistency and 'safety' the green version should be what's played.

Hehe, I agree with that. The problem is that with the 3color build out of 10-15 games, getting a turn 2 aggro kill, is just way too fun. And the mono green version does that 1 out of every 100-150 games ^^ We also get maaany turn 3 kills which are awesome against pairings like Goblins, ANT, Dredge, etc, really fast decks, against which we only have 1 winning option. Being Faster than them :P

Anyway, tournament wise I think I'll keep playing the mono green and let's all try to improve it together, hehe.

I've been trying: Briar Shield because I think it's a really great option when playing 8x shroud but 1/1 creatures, getting them to constantly be 2/2 is just great. ESG for sure ?


Never mind my question on Bounty of the Hunt. After testing I realized just how bad a card it is. We just can't lose that other card we need to play 90% or the time, and then even worse, it the worst thing to draw at top deck, so I guess it's just pointless to even test it.

[paeng4983]

i've tried the 3c version (with klin) and i didnt liked it.
its not im saying klin wont fit iin the 3c build, it's just that what i
experienced was - klin doesnt do anything whenever i cast a creature or a rancor.
so what i did i just configure it to gw and it works much better than i had it at 3c.
but for some reason, i still decided to play the mono green stompy in a local tournament (16players) here
a while ago and here's my brief experienced:
1st rd burn
i rarely lose to a burn/sligh deck. silhana with rancor on her finished the both games.
2nd rd gobs
same with this, even though he was able to play turn one lucky, still it's not enough for him to finish me off
because most of my troops were much faster and more aggressive than his . skarrgan with rancor and the like
gave me the win.
3rd rd reanimator
OMG! how i wish it was the sui guy who were at 2-0 as well...
but oh well what can i do.. so immediately went to my table,
and sit on the other end then gave my opponent a BIG SMILE...
yeah.. a very big smile....
game one, i won because he was in a mana drought. jungle lion ang skarrgan run as fast as they could to deliver the win.
game two, he went 1st and does - swamp, dark rit, entomb, fetch iona then reanimate..OMG.. that b!tch just raped me in the as$.
game three, same thing happend only this time it was via exhume.. iona... iona iona (AYOKO NA) (filipino word for i had enough!)
4th rd urg fae
won 1st game in turn two, bogle two invigorate then two berserks.
game two, vendillion clique with jitte on her rode him to victory
game thee, was able to pin his life at down to one in turn three before he was able to draw EE, firesprout and spellstutter sprite to halt my rally then began his assault via vendillion with jitte on her again... :) sweet...

clearly we have to do something with this entomb fetching iona...
*sigh* it totally wreck mono color decks like us...
how does your SB look like guys?
mine is this:
2 fogs
3 seal of primordium
4 vexing susher
4 rushwood legate
2 compost

[NecroYawgmoth]

What's about the Mono-G version right now?

...maybe we need 2 Berserk Stompy threads =P=P=P

I'm thinking about the Mindbreak Trap in the Mono-G version again, and I think I want to play it...

My old Sideboard was like this [no Artifact/Enchantment hate in the main]

4 Vexing Shusher
4 Seeds of Innocence
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gleeful Sabotage
1 Snow-Covered Forest

It was OK... but I think I will cut the Forest, the Gleefuls, and 1 Seeds for 4 Traps...

I MUST play the Forest in the main then [to support Shusher and Seeds better in G2 &G3, and it will help me with VoV], and I want to play the 2 Gleefuls in the main when I do this changes, because 3 mass-Artifact-removals are not enough against Legacy IMO, but I have 2 hatepieces in the main then [they always find targets]...

I think I cut the 4 Skyshroud Elite's for this, because Skyshroud is the worst critter in our deck, but then I will have 1 random slot...

What coul I play in this slot, and what are your latest Mono-G builds right now?:

Mine looks like this:

Creatures
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
Pump
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
3 Vines of Vastwood
2 Seal of Strength
Utility
2 Gleeful Sabotage
Lands
16 Snow-Covered Forest

Sideboard:
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Seeds of Innocence


YawG

[Gui]

My current list, as it was for like 2 months, is this:

// Lands
15 [ZEN] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [GP] Silhana Ledgewalker
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
3 [EVE] Slippery Bogle
3 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
3 [EX] Skyshroud Elite
2 [U] Scryb Sprites
4 [GP] Skarrgan Pit-Skulk

// Spells
4 [V09] Berserk
4 [UL] Rancor
4 [MM] Invigorate
3 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
2 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
3 [NE] Seal of Strength
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Forest (3)
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher


I know it uses krosan with 15 forests main, but I decided it was a risk I was willing to take in order to have a great response MD for CB and a lot of other stuff... the 3-3-3-2 split of 1cc creatures wants to increase the chance of having a solution the other wouldn't. I wish I had time to test, but life is upside down right now, but I'm willing to play few tourneys in july with this same list...

[paeng4983]

x - forest
no fetches in it and opted to go straight xforest?
why? :eek:

fetches are there to shuffle you deck.
not to mention it helps you thin the deck,
thus increasing the chance of drawing either a
creature or a pump spell. :confused:

so why is everybody is shifting from 10forest 7 (6) fetches combination
to 16 -15 forest? there's a big probability that you might draw into bad
cards in situations you least expect them to be. :cry:

thanks. just want to your insight about this changes. :)

[Magic-Style]

I think Nature's claim is better than Gleeful Sabotage. I play it in SB, it's very good card. :)

[Gui]

x - forest
no fetches in it and opted to go straight xforest?
why? :eek:


I use x forests because I don't need fetchlands to pump goyfs, becase everytime I break a fetch I get another forest from the draw (It's not very effective on reducing the chance of land draw) and because fetchlands gets stifled and moon'd, while forests don't... But that's just me...

[Strawberry Dwarf]

My current list, as it was for like 2 months, is this:

// Lands
15 [ZEN] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [GP] Silhana Ledgewalker
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
3 [EVE] Slippery Bogle
3 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
3 [EX] Skyshroud Elite
2 [U] Scryb Sprites
4 [GP] Skarrgan Pit-Skulk

// Spells
4 [V09] Berserk
4 [UL] Rancor
4 [MM] Invigorate
3 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
2 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
3 [NE] Seal of Strength
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ALA] Forest (3)
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher


I know it uses krosan with 15 forests main, but I decided it was a risk I was willing to take in order to have a great response MD for CB and a lot of other stuff... the 3-3-3-2 split of 1cc creatures wants to increase the chance of having a solution the other wouldn't. I wish I had time to test, but life is upside down right now, but I'm willing to play few tourneys in july with this same list...

IMHO the better idea is 4 Vexing Shushers maindeck instead of Krosan Grip against troubles with active CB-Top + 4 Viridian Zealots + 3 Null Rods in SB against other artifacts/enchantments.

My current version (unfortunately not real, only MWS):

12 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Tukatongue Thallid
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Vine Dryad
4 Martyr of Spores
4 Rancor
4 Bounty of the Hunt
4 Gather Courage
4 Berserk
SB
4 Heap Doll
4 Root Maze
4 Viridian Zealot
3 Null Rod

The idea: 12 Forests only, but a lot of "free" spells.

[paeng4983]

I use x forests because I don't need fetchlands to pump goyfs, becase everytime I break a fetch I get another forest from the draw (It's not very effective on reducing the chance of land draw) and because fetchlands gets stifled and moon'd, while forests don't... But that's just me...

ok. i might adopt this 15 straight forest thingy for these two legacy turneys this weekend.
i'll let u know guys my results. :)

i might use this SB
4 rushwood legate
4 fae macabre
2 compost
2 wrap in vigor
3 seal of primordium

*edited sunday 1:30 am manila time*
just done with saturday's local tourney where 16 players i think joined.
i managed to win my 1st two games (merfolk and ichorid both 2-0) then
lost to a reanimator deck (*sigh iona really slaps me big time) then winning
my last game (zoo).

at the end of the day i managed to get into 2nd place only a game behind reanimator.

fae macabre is awesome! it cannot be fowed. ichorid and reanimator decks were a bit
surprised with this fae that i used against them. wow! i'd try the same build of SB again for
today (sunday).

bogle and ledge walker are really power house against decks that love to abuse spot removals.

half an hour before the rd1 had started, i revert back from the 15 straight forest thing to the 10 7 (forests and fetches)
im not really that comfortable with the 15straight forest. sorry :)

here's the sideboard that i used
4 rushwood legate
2 compost
4 fae macabre
3 seeds of innocence
2 wrap in vigor


*edit monday 10am philippine time
i played with the straight basic lands
and it didnt do well for me.
1-4 was my standing in the sunday's local turney.
lossing badly to evagreen, gobs, burn and BR aggro.
my lone win came at the expense of stasis.
YES! finally i've beaten stasis using this deck. (1-9 vs. stasis since 1996)

playing with this type of formula of straight
basic land is suicidal.
without fetches, your chances of drawing a good card is
lessen. what ever is the card following the card you just
drawn is your next top deck (except if your opponent forces
you to shuffle your deck like pte and the like). *sigh*

[Combo Winter]

Anyone still working on teh troll version here is what i have right now pretty basic the reason i play land grant and seal is to maximize goyf who in my opinon is the main reason to play the troll version not troll. as it is hard to make him big while focusing on kavu. Its possible this can be better than the g/w or monogreen kavu version.

4 ESG
4 troll astetic
4 jungle lion
4 qurion ranger
4 goyf
4 ledgewalker

4 bounty of the hunt
4 might of old krosa
4 rancor
4 berserk
3 seal
4 land grant

7 fetch
6 forest

[paeng4983]

Anyone still working on teh troll version here is what i have right now pretty basic the reason i play land grant and seal is to maximize goyf who in my opinon is the main reason to play the troll version not troll. as it is hard to make him big while focusing on kavu. Its possible this can be better than the g/w or monogreen kavu version.

4 ESG
4 troll astetic
4 jungle lion
4 qurion ranger
4 goyf
4 ledgewalker

4 bounty of the hunt
4 might of old krosa
4 rancor
4 berserk
3 seal
4 land grant

7 fetch
6 forest

just my thought:
troll is slow, though the shroud effect is good. so do with the regen thing.

land grant is, for me, a bad card because your hand will be revealed and
thus your opponent will have an idea of what he will do. also there might
be a probability that you might experience mana drought if he FOWed
your 1st turn land grant.

bounty of the hunt is not that good tempo setter for green because you
are forced to discard a green card just for the +3/+3 thing.

why do u have a quirion ranger?

here's my suggestion..
you can use talara's batallion and manamorphose in your build.

[NecroYawgmoth]

@Combo Winter:
100% agree what paeng says

Land Grant is bad because of FoW & Thoughtseize/Duress which can cost you the game [revealing your hand is also very bad in a deck with so many combat tricks and bluffs]

But if you want to take the Troll/Goyf route,here are some advices...

VoV should be better than BotH [it protects you goyf]... BotH is such a bad card... even Giant Growth is better, seriously... you can't afford to pitch a green card,...

also, I would exchange the ESGs with Lotus Petals in the Goyf version [additional +1/+1]

BTW, what makes Jungle Lion better than Skarrgan / Nettle or even Bogle [which has also Trollshroud]?


@paeng4983:
Quirion Ranger is there to fix his low landcount... yeah, strange but works... -but I have lost too many games of FoWed Land Grant / Bolt-> Quirion / not drawing 2nd Land, etc... all with the lowland build... IMO the ~15 land build is much more stable...


@Gui_Brasil:
Important question: Why do you play Faerie Macabre??? Just to have the uncounterable out against reanimator? [because it's the only deck where it's good against] As a long time Dredge-Player, I can tell you, that Faerie seriously sucks against Dredge...

IMO Macabre is best against Reanimate, and Ravenous is best against Dredge... if you want to have an out against both, play Crypt


YawG

[LordEvilTeaCup]

What does everyone think of the new beater that has been spoiled for m11? It's called Garruk's Companion and is a 3/2 Trample for GG.

[NecroYawgmoth]

no Troll-Shroud / evasion... & not better than Kavu Predator

[LordEvilTeaCup]

no Troll-Shroud / evasion... & not better than Kavu Predator

Why not just say no Troll-Shroud? Trample is evasion... Also, I am inclined to agree with you, that Kavu is definitely the superior card here. What I am asking though, could it possibly go in any other slot? My gut says probably not, but the fact that it has 3 power plays nice with berserk, and having it's own built in evasion is great.

[Gui]

@Gui_Brasil:
Important question: Why do you play Faerie Macabre??? Just to have the uncounterable out against reanimator? [because it's the only deck where it's good against] As a long time Dredge-Player, I can tell you, that Faerie seriously sucks against Dredge...

IMO Macabre is best against Reanimate, and Ravenous is best against Dredge... if you want to have an out against both, play Crypt

YawG

Yes, uncounterable and instant speed asnwer, yes... Well, faerie slows dredge down enough for me everytime I play it... And has been a good enough replacement to crypt... I'm way more afraid of Reanimator then dredge too...



Why not just say no Troll-Shroud? Trample is evasion... Also, I am inclined to agree with you, that Kavu is definitely the superior card here. What I am asking though, could it possibly go in any other slot? My gut says probably not, but the fact that it has 3 power plays nice with berserk, and having it's own built in evasion is great.

Hmmm, no... It won't do the cut because it's 2cc, and we can't afford having much more than 8 2cc, which are Kavu and Silhana, at least on the green version in which you are considering it. It costs :g::g:, it won't go in the w splash or in the rw splash versions... 3/2 Trollshroud would be really nice tho =P

[Masamune]

Hey guys! Nice to meet everyone

I read all treads here, and agreed Gui_brasil

i love to play with BS.......reading all my mind changed a little...^^
U wanna share with you guys one question....
Why not run Prey's Vengeance???
And how about Keen Sense + Vine Dryad or Keen Sense + Scryb Sprites??? Or Groundswell??
My point is: 4x MooK + 4 Groundswell couple 'zerks and invigorates and / or draws seens nice...
We aways can play forest's T2 to landfall +2/+2 and Prey's works with Sentinels or another creature 2/2 (cuz against zoo +2 safe against LB, Chain Lightning or Nacatl, and do +2 next time :D)

What you guys think about it? ^^

[NihilObstat]

Hi guys !! I know some of you are gonna hate me, but I wanted to gives this a try. This is a ThreshZerk I have been testing on MWS, since I don't own duals of Tarmogoyfs, but give it a try if you want. It's deffinitely not as fun as monogreen, but the posibility of annoying the opponent with No's while you combo is interesting.
It is actually like a mixture of the Heavy Machine-gun deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17532-Heavy-Machine-Gun-(R-U-Aggro-Combo)), and our Stompy, so here it goes.

Mana
4x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
3x Lotus petal

Big Critts
4x Kilnd Fiend
4x Tarmogoyf / Kavu Predator, tons cheaper and just as good or even better sometimes

Blue Stuff
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
1x Serum Vision (the M11 one will be better when it comes out)
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Impulse
4x Spell pierce
2x Spell Snare
1x Worldly Tutor

Pumps
4x Berserk
4x Invigorate
1x Vines of Vastwood

Side
4x Stiffle (to protect our own mana base)
4x Faerie Macabre / Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
4x Snap / Spell snare
The sideboard is kinda stupid, it could use Firespout, Pyroclasm, Pumps (Vines or Might)

So I'll comment this quickly. Bascally first turn we Brain for the land base we need, and counter important things. Till we have a critter in the board, defend it, and kill in 1 or 2 turns.
I've added Lotus petal, because I wanted to be Stompy, and this helps recovering from the tempo loss of Daze returning a land, and grows Tarmo.
I use main deck spell pierce, instead of spell snare, because in Spain there's a lot of red and zoo, and we need to counter removal.
The main problem of the deck is it's weak mana base. 14 lands + 4 Lotus. That means that when we play against land disruption we need to be very carefull and smart. Tutor basics, side in Stiffle, and save counters for Sinkhole.
Worldly tutor is there because we only have 8 creatures and we need at least 1 for sure. More then 1 Tutor seemed too much. My creature choice is quite simple. Since we run a lot of disruption we can't afford to have a big army, so we only get the biggest ones and pump them free via Invigorate plus Zerk. Kiln kills without Berserk easily though.

The deck is working quite decently, again the lands are very week, but we mix two things here the Control to avoid stupid things like turn one Chalice or Trini that ruins monogreen.
Just one thing, Tarmo is the bad creatures here, as always, in Berserk stompy so he can be the bate to eat removal sometimes.
So we don't make land disruption (no waste) or infinite counter (countertop), but we can be as fast as monogreen, and with Land+Lotus+Kiln, Invigorate+Zerk, and the opponent fetching we kill turn 2. That's 5 cards. MonoG needs Land+2dmgcritter, Land+Inv+Inv+3str pump+Zerk. 7 cards.

Any comments, likes, dislikes, hates?? It's definitely not as fun as our monogreen, and certainly not as cheap, and it's almost like a Threshold, so the question is. Is it better than Thresh, and is this a stupid idea? Hehe. Thx for reading.

Editing: So after testing it yesterday it works better than I thought. I know workstation isn't real life, but I played against nice decks (Merfolk, Eva green, Control, others), and I went 5-1.
A couple nice things to comment, when not playing against FOW, or when opponent is tapped out, we can Invigorate Kiln, in response Daze-Pierce our Invigorate, and in response FOW-daze-pierce our Daze, then Berserk Kiln, to get him to hit for 34. It might sound impossible but I did that 5 times in the 6 matches, so it works quite often.

[paeng4983]

finally i got on the net after almost a week.
well my cousin piloted my berserk stumpy
and he didnt do well.
when i asked why on earth did he had
a 1-5-1 win-loss-draw he said to me his matches:
(in chronological order: counterTOP (loss), ANT (loss), dredge (loss)
goblin (win), bant (draw), counterTOP (loss)

now i understood why he had such record. most of his
matches were not favorable.

as for me well i used mono green chalice aggro.
i didnt do as well.

:)

@nihiloblast
i like your idea of combining the idea of heavy machine gun- thres- berserk.
though, i think, the klin is weak because it is prone to spot removals.
yes the +3/+0 thing is great but without shroud it is nothing.
same with tarmo. i think you should add vines of vastwood.
it not just give your klin or tarmo a shroud protection, it also pumps
klin and if you give VOV a kicker - it can give an additional pump
to the creature it targets. :)

@masamune
berserk stompy deck utilize speed in order for it to win a game.
keen sense is, for me, a tempo card. hmmmm... i tried using it before
but i opted to go for speed because i'd rather prefer winning the game
instead of drawing an extra card off keen sense. :) just my two cents bro.

[Masamune]

finally i got on the net after almost a week.
well my cousin piloted my berserk stumpy
and he didnt do well.
when i asked why on earth did he had
a 1-5-1 win-loss-draw he said to me his matches:
(in chronological order: counterTOP (loss), ANT (loss), dredge (loss)
goblin (win), bant (draw), counterTOP (loss)

now i understood why he had such record. most of his
matches were not favorable.

as for me well i used mono green chalice aggro.
i didnt do as well.

:)

@nihiloblast
i like your idea of combining the idea of heavy machine gun- thres- berserk.
though, i think, the klin is weak because it is prone to spot removals.
yes the +3/+0 thing is great but without shroud it is nothing.
same with tarmo. i think you should add vines of vastwood.
it not just give your klin or tarmo a shroud protection, it also pumps
klin and if you give VOV a kicker - it can give an additional pump
to the creature it targets. :)

@masamune
berserk stompy deck utilize speed in order for it to win a game.
keen sense is, for me, a tempo card. hmmmm... i tried using it before
but i opted to go for speed because i'd rather prefer winning the game
instead of drawing an extra card off keen sense. :) just my two cents bro.

Yeah! That's it! U're right! I wanna make some tests with groundswell and Prey's vengeance....IMO is good against the damn zoo, burns and isn't slow...
Maybe Keen Sense works against controls, but aways dapends our luck to topdeck or opp with no removals....=/
So.... pretty good not run with it, exchange slot for another condition win
Hey....your cousin did it well?? He knows all matchups? =/ Did he sideboarded right? I don't know.....:rolleyes:

Sorry for my bad english, I'm brazilian

[KBH]

Problem I have with most of these builds is that they're so groked up with cards that are only good in combination with Berserk that if you don't get the turn 3 Berserk win, you often don't win on turn 4. Plus, I can't believe the best way to win through removal is 8 1/1s

[paeng4983]

\
Hey....your cousin did it well?? He knows all matchups? =/ Did he sideboarded right? I don't know.....:rolleyes:


my cousin did not do well last weekend in the side event GP manila.
he faced all unfavorable match ups.

here's his games in chronological order: UGr counterTOP (loss), ANT (loss), dredge (loss)
goblin (win), UGw NO-PROG bant (draw), UGb counterTOP (loss)

and here's the list of the sideboard that he opt:
4 rushwood legate
2 wrap in vigor
2 compost
4 faerie macabre
3 seeds of innocence

my problem with PV, yeah the rebound is a good thing but that it only pumps +2/+2 and with groundswell you need to have a landfall 1st before you could enjoy the +4/+4 it gives. otherwise, just like PV - it will only give a +2/+2 to its target.

a +1/+1 pump can really spell the difference.

scenario with PV and groundswell (without landfall)

2/1 is attacking, and opponent just took it.
then you cast PV, then groundswell, then invirogate (giving your opponent extra lives) then finally berserk.
let's do the math - 2 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 10 x 2 = 20 how about his life? 20 + 3 (via invigorate) = 23
now let's substract: 23 (life pts) - 20 (damage off the berserked 2/1 creature) = 3
3, meaning he is still in the game and he can win it even with his life pts is at 3 and to make it worst, the berserked 2/1 creature will die at the end of your turn.

ok what if you had a landfall just before casting groundswell,
2 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 12 x 2 = 24
23 - 24 = -1
*that is if you will have a landfall.

now lets look at the other pump spell, i'd select might of old krosa and seal
cast MOOK in your main phase, then attack. then if he just took it, sacrifice the seal, then cast inivgorate (giving him 3 extra life pts) then berserk
let's do the math: 2 + 4 + 3 + 4 = 13 x 2 = 26 how about his life? 20+ 3 = 23
23 (life) - 26 (damage from the berserked 2/1 creature) = -6
thus if your opponent has a negative life pts, he already loses the game.
*no landfall needed in this win. just pure speed, muscle and luck (praying that he doesn't have a spot removal)

@KBH
sad to say, we really need to increase our number of shroud creatures in order for us to evade spot removals.

have you seen the spoilers for M11?
garruks companion is, i think, a great addition.
though the sad thing there is it doesn't have any shroud effect or any ability we can use against the opponent.
it's just another pure muscle creature. on the positive note, 2nd turn or a 1st turn 3/2 drop is not bad.

another card that i am looking at is the scared wolf 2Gcc 3/1 shroud from your opponents spells and ability.
he'd be a good addition why? counterbalance and EE will have a hard time reaching for the 3cc requirement, and it has shroud from his spells and/ or abilities. what do you think about this new wolf guys?

[Boogie]

I think that the vines of vastwood idea has some merit. Kiln fiend and predator are both huge threats by themselves, vines could blow them out by pumping and providing shroud. With 4 vines, invigorate, maybe grove of the burnwillows or whatever, you could have a huge monster quick. vines + invigorate on a kiln fiend is 5 not kicked, 9 kicked, and he sticks around. a berserk would win the game. and considering it has shroud, the opponents options are limited.

[KBH]

Is Sacred Wolf in any way whatsoever superior to Troll Ascetic in mono-green?

[Masamune]

my problem with PV, yeah the rebound is a good thing but that it only pumps +2/+2 and with groundswell you need to have a landfall 1st before you could enjoy the +4/+4 it gives. otherwise, just like PV - it will only give a +2/+2 to its target.

a +1/+1 pump can really spell the difference.

scenario with PV and groundswell (without landfall)

2/1 is attacking, and opponent just took it.
then you cast PV, then groundswell, then invirogate (giving your opponent extra lives) then finally berserk.
let's do the math - 2 + 2 + 2 + 4 = 10 x 2 = 20 how about his life? 20 + 3 (via invigorate) = 23
now let's substract: 23 (life pts) - 20 (damage off the berserked 2/1 creature) = 3
3, meaning he is still in the game and he can win it even with his life pts is at 3 and to make it worst, the berserked 2/1 creature will die at the end of your turn.

ok what if you had a landfall just before casting groundswell,
2 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 12 x 2 = 24
23 - 24 = -1
*that is if you will have a landfall.

now lets look at the other pump spell, i'd select might of old krosa and seal
cast MOOK in your main phase, then attack. then if he just took it, sacrifice the seal, then cast inivgorate (giving him 3 extra life pts) then berserk
let's do the math: 2 + 4 + 3 + 4 = 13 x 2 = 26 how about his life? 20+ 3 = 23
23 (life) - 26 (damage from the berserked 2/1 creature) = -6
thus if your opponent has a negative life pts, he already loses the game.


Nah... you forgot one thing really important...
When u said "cast mook in main phase and attack" dealing 26 damage, u must to heve in table - 1 forest - mook - 2 forest - seal ...and....where is another green mana?? ESG??? Ok, 26 damage u can deal turn 2??? with seal and mook , like damage with PV and Grounds... without ESG, turn 3 , opp isn't 20 life....maybe 17~~15.....Please show me where I misunderstood =(
Anyway IMO PV prevents zoo's and burn's .....with your statistics, groundswell aways give +4 with the second or third land when it resolves....
Plus, u can run just a simple couple Groundswell ou PV's.... 4 and 4 or just one or another....chose......make diference with berserks.....but we can run mook+PV, mook+grounds....PV+seal.....does't matter.......

Sacred Wolf for me is not bad......but I prefer put it away and run with another stuff better =D

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Is Sacred Wolf in any way whatsoever superior to Troll Ascetic in mono-green?

It's superior in sucking.

[NihilObstat]

@nihiloblast
i like your idea of combining the idea of heavy machine gun- thres- berserk.
though, i think, the klin is weak because it is prone to spot removals.
yes the +3/+0 thing is great but without shroud it is nothing.
same with tarmo. i think you should add vines of vastwood.
it not just give your klin or tarmo a shroud protection, it also pumps
klin and if you give VOV a kicker - it can give an additional pump
to the creature it targets. :)


Sure he doesn't have shroud, but hey, only 8 out of our 20-25 creatures that monogreen plays have it, and we kill with the other many times too don't we? Really, just try Kiln, wether in RG, BRG or WRG, he is awesome always !!!

After more testing the blue version doesn't really work out, the only real advantage is scaring our opponents the first turns and pondering, but then the hand empties and we don't have that many creatures, pumps, or counters to control the board, so I'm moving back to Green !!! ^^
Heavy machine gun by itself is a better idea, and Berserk by itself too, hehe.


Anyone going to tourneys lately ???? Anyone who can report pairings ??? I'm starting a legacy league in my city next school year, so I'll let you know monthly of results. I hope I do good, hehe ^^

[orcanmail]

So guys, i've been playing mono green berserk casually for years. Good thread. I use all the same pumpers in invigorates, might of krosa, rancors, seal of strength and BERSERK, and cover enchantments / artifacts using viridian zealots and naturalises in my SB, however i have a different angle on the creatures, probably because when they resolve they are fun.
i use scryb sprites, skyshroud elite, but also llanowar elves and fyndhorn elves, then i use priests of titania and silhana ledgewalkers, and then groundbreakers, and also 3 yavimaya ants. i hate not having consistent mana base, hence mono green and mana elves.
i tend to run 10 forests, pendelhaven, gaias bounty, and 4 (slow) treetop villages to withstand wrath of gods ets. i guess they are too prone to wastelands!
but here's the question, is it viable to run these extra wimpy 1/1 elves to be able to afford trampling hasted groundbreakers and yavimaya ants? you need the mana to pump them with berserks etc i tried elvish spirit guides and they didn't seem to work, and as it is a legacy deck my lotus and mox are rudely banned!
i hated topdecking so i turned to goblins for a while for ringleaders card draw, but i just love berserking creatures for 20+ damage so much, especially scryb sprites, that i've dug out my mono green berserk deck once more.

[paeng4983]

hello there.
what do you think about this new card from M11
Autumn's Veil
G
Instant
Spells you control can't be countered by blue or black spells this turn, and creatures you control can't be the targets of blue or black spells this turn.
#162/249

this is a great addition for the berserk stompy deck.
a card that can protect us not just from counters but from spot removals as well!
sweet!

[NihilObstat]

It would be a lot better if it's said target from black of white spells, hehe, but oh well. I like it anyway ^^
I still prefer Vexing and Vines of Vastwood, although they are 2 cards




By the way shouldn't we be happy about the prohibition of Mystical Tutor??? It means we don't need to worry so much about ANT in our sideboard, and we'll have room for more cards ^^
I mean, Ant WILL still be played, but I guess that not as much :P

[Pltnmngl]

Is Wild Might too expensive? Instant speed +5/+5 sounds good, especially since many complain about cards like Might of Old Krosa.

[NecroYawgmoth]

yes, it is... you want to play cheap pump, because you want to play Berserk afterwards...

nevertheless its an good budget-option if you can't efford Berserks =P

[Pltnmngl]

Has anyone tested against combo after Mystical Tutor was banned? I'm considering changing my sideboard since I tend to get an extra turn on average.

[paeng4983]

Has anyone tested against combo after Mystical Tutor was banned? I'm considering changing my sideboard since I tend to get an extra turn on average.

i did. in one of the LSS tournaments (i think that was 3rd sunday of july)
that we had here in the Philippines, i faced a good friend of mine who
was then using an ANT. he bullied me with a 2-0 win.
moral lesson: i guess we really cannot predict a deck even without MT in their MD.

here's how my SB looks like as of the moment:
4 rushwood legate
3 fog
4 tormod's crypt
4 seal of primordium

how does yours?

and also, who here will go to GP using this deck?
GOOD LUCK TO YOU WHOEVER YOU ARE!!!
:laugh:

[NecroYawgmoth]

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Seeds of Innocence

[Pltnmngl]

Would you recommend that sideboard for an unknown meta or just GP?

[NecroYawgmoth]

...for an unkonwn meta.

I don't like to change my Sideboard every week/month, and think, this is the best ~allaround-setup~ for everything...

Crypts against Graveyarddecks that could be too fast [i.e. Dredge, don't know if Reani will still be played] but also Loam, etc.
Trap is semi-good against Combo, but better a small chance than taking a 0-2 goldfish... [nevertheless, the weakest card in SB]
Shusher agains CB/Top, and controlish/fishy decks [needed]
Seeds against Jitte, Chalice, Prison, bla [needed]

Aggro MUs should be fine, except Zoo, but we have no good boarding choices against Zoo, IMO


yes, it may be an all-in Board, that you NEED to have Crypt or Trap on your opening hand, but this is an all-in deck, so I don't see the problems with that =P

[paeng4983]

Would you recommend that sideboard for an unknown meta or just GP?

for an unknown meta, here's what i might have:

3 tormod's crypt
2 fae macabre
3 rushwood legate
2 fog
3 naturalize
1 seeds of innocence
1 reverent silence

last weekend, i played in a local legacy tourney that we had here,
i got paired with W_staxx and enchantress as for my 1st two games.
as for stax, cotv set at one not to mention trinisphere and ghostly prison were
to much for my pets to handle. and as for the enchantress, moat and friends
crushed our momentum. *sigh*
but i managed to win my last two games, BG_rock and UGR_thresh.

:)

anyone here still using the bogle? how many in MD?
does anyone here have any changes in their MD? SB?
results in any tournaments that you participated?
post it here guys.

:)

[DrJones]

I think you should give a try to Glimpse of Nature, specially if you are playing free creatures like Skyshroud cutter or Vine dryad. Drawing 3 cards for one mana is good.

[NihilObstat]

I think you should give a try to Glimpse of Nature, specially if you are playing free creatures like Skyshroud cutter or Vine dryad. Drawing 3 cards for one mana is good.


Maybe glimpse would be a nice sideboard addition against some pairing, to either make sure we draw our shroud creatures, for heavy removal decks like Zoo, or that we draw our Must have Berserk against combo, although glimpse would be too slow against combo, specially since I don't play neither Cutter nor Dryad ^^ but maybe changing the deck a little to adjust it to the glimpse could work.

[thorin_the_king]

hey guys, i would like to share some crazy idea i had and testing have been very promising, 1st of the list, then the explanations:

mana:
16x forest
4x elvish spirit guide
4x noble hierarch

survival package
4x wild mongrel
4x basking rootwalla
4x vengevine
4x survival of the fittest

berserk pump package
4x kavu predator
4x invigorate
3x skyshroud cutter
4x berserk

that leaves us 5 slots that i play with 3 [cards]sylvan library + 2 [cards]umezawa's jitte, not sure about them

the deck can switch both styles of playing without being hurted. i like it's explosiveness with a mid late game plan also thx to vengevines.

so far it's been good but i would like someone takes it for a little testing and or opinions

skyshroud cutters now are better without kavu beacuse thayre a free creature to play out vengevines also.

thx for your help

thorin

[Magic-Style]

Nice crazy idea ! :)

For the 5 slots, what do you think about 1 Squee and 4 STP ??

[Tru3z3rox]

Here is my list and I've been liking it:
Deck

Lands:
12 Forests
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta

Artifacts:
2 Lotus Petal

Enchantments:
3 Sylvan Library
4 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor

Instants:
4 Berserk
2 Vines of Vastwood
3 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate

Creatures:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator

[kiln]

I really wanted to do a red green stompy deck featuring...KILN FIEND! because kiln fiend+ reckless charge (or giant growth) + berserk = 20 dmg. Ridic. Don't know if anyone has made this suggestion, haven't read every post.

[paeng4983]

I really wanted to do a red green stompy deck featuring...KILN FIEND! because kiln fiend+ reckless charge (or giant growth) + berserk = 20 dmg. Ridic. Don't know if anyone has made this suggestion, haven't read every post.

there were discussions about klin, but klin was turned down
because its ability is useless if you draw a non-instant/ sorcery card.

and since SOM is fast approaching - are there any promising cards that can be added in this deck?

im looking at that 0cc with a 1/1 power/thoughness.

:)

[NecroYawgmoth]

I was also looking on Memnite...

but what would hit replace?

Silhana Ledgewalker
Kavu Predator
Slipery Bogle
Skarrgan Pit Skulk
Nettle Sentinel
Skyshroud Elite

are all better imo

=(

[thorin_the_king]

i think the infect mechanic will give this deck a big boost, i hope they'll print some dorks with infect in green, hoping for some one mana casting cost :)

invigorate or pump spells with infect is crazy, you have only to do ten damage!!

[Tru3z3rox]

i think the infect mechanic will give this deck a big boost, i hope they'll print some dorks with infect in green, hoping for some one mana casting cost :)

invigorate or pump spells with infect is crazy, you have only to do ten damage!!

That would be freaking godly if they did that. I'm really hoping they do to make other non tendrils decks viable...haha.

[NihilObstat]

Yes, yes, yes, yes !!!! They've done it!!! 1/1 green with infect !!!!! It's called Trigon of Contagion !!!!

Trigon of Contagion 4
Artifact (U)
Trigon of Contagion enters the battlefield with three charge counters on it.
GG: Put a charge counter on Trigon of Contagion.
2: Remove a charge counter from Trigon of Contagion: Put a 1/1 green Insect creature token with infect onto the battlefield.


Just kidding..... ^^

It would be awesome though, for 1 mana :O

[Gui]

Hi there, people! Been a while since I last posted here, I was kind of busy for a while... Will try to catch up now

Wanna know if people tested M11 cards, and the results... I liked Autumn's Veil, Back to Nature, Hornet Sting and Plummet, as possible sideboard options for monogreen. What else is in test?

And, just a small consideration about Autumn's Veil, which is the card I've looked most: It's a must-counter for blue decks, and is a good sideboard against any counter decks. A probable replacement/split for Vexing Shusher @ SB, it's faster than Vexing, but won't help against Chalice. Not being targetable by black spells also indicates a sweet SB option, since a lot of decks likes to splash black for it's anti-creature cards.
Also, it's hability to prevent bouncing from blue helps against combo Matchups, which will side-in bounces against us. Mostly, helps GW versions of the deck to keep Teeg on the board against combo.

[paeng4983]

Yes, yes, yes, yes !!!! They've done it!!! 1/1 green with infect !!!!!

Trigon of Contagion 4
Artifact (U)
Trigon of Contagion enters the battlefield with three charge counters on it.
GG: Put a charge counter on Trigon of Contagion.
2: Remove a charge counter from Trigon of Contagion: Put a 1/1 green Insect creature token with infect onto the battlefield.


Just kidding..... ^^

It would be awesome though, for 1 mana :O

i almost fell for this one
hahaha

@gui
well i'd still go for reverent silence than back to nature.
regarding autumn, i was able to use it, but i feel like 70%
of the time - it is a dead card. same thing with the sting.
its not that synergistic with our strategy.
plummet is, again for me, is the best
thing that came from m11 in terms of reinforcing our green team.
in addition to the cards that you mention, im currently testing that GG = 3/2 trample
though im still not that confident enough to have him in a sanctioned tournament.
:)

[Gui]

i almost fell for this one
hahaha

@gui
well i'd still go for reverent silence than back to nature.
regarding autumn, i was able to use it, but i feel like 70%
of the time - it is a dead card. same thing with the sting.
its not that synergistic with our strategy.
plummet is, again for me, is the best
thing that came from m11 in terms of reinforcing our green team.
in addition to the cards that you mention, im currently testing that GG = 3/2 trample
though im still not that confident enough to have him in a sanctioned tournament.
:)

Nice to have some feedback that fast ^^

What I like most about Autumn's is that it can force the last counter from opponent's hand, since it's a must counter... Ofc, this won't help against CB+top either, but it's cheaper than vexing... i.e., good card against merfolks and Threshold w/o CB. And once you got a Silhana/Bogle on table, only things that can prevent you from getting the combo are counters... It is, probably, not better than Vexing, but a possible split, or 5th spot against these kind of decks, depending on meta.

Could you name some points on Plummet? I could think about a lot of creatures, but I couldn't think about it as a way to counter popular decks that we wouldn't beat anyways otherwise... Like, Eva Green and monoblacks with Tombstalkers...

I don't like the gg 3/2 trample that much, seems like another common card that will get killed by every single removal @Legacy, and got the same evasion we already get from rancor/berserk... But, indeed, 3 power is almost as good as it gets for a 2cc... I'd probably prefer to use Tarmogoyf, tho, since /4 is enough to get rid of lightnings.




Aggro MUs should be fine, except Zoo, but we have no good boarding choices against Zoo, IMO


BTW, I agree with this statement, and I think we should try to work something against it asap. (at least for the mono g version, which has no swords/paths)

[NihilObstat]

It is, probably, not better than Vexing, but a possible split, or 5th spot against these kind of decks, depending on meta.

Could you name some points on Plummet? I could think about a lot of creatures, but I couldn't think about it as a way to counter popular decks that we wouldn't beat anyways otherwise... Like, Eva Green and monoblacks with Tombstalkers...



Hi there, Gui, long time no see ^^

Autumn's Veil can definitely go as the 5th and 6th card in sideboard if you play in a very blue meta, but then I would suggest you play Goblins, hehe.

On the other hand, I must say that I have had some really bad experiences against monoblack control of evagreen. I feel that their Ritual, Tourach, Thoughtseize is waaaay too much for us, and not just that, but a simple 1st turn Thoughtseize to a creature followed by a snuff out, also kills us. Plummet wouldn't be the right card though, because my fear is not slowing Them down, but finding a way to recover from discard effects...

Against Zoo, the option I find most correct is getting the 4x Vines of Vastwood, and praying for a Berserk in hand, or Silhana plus Rancor. They are fast but so are we. There was a long testing on it pages ago, and they came up with a constant 50%, any ideas to get better than that ???




Now things apart, I am helding, and starting a Legacy League in my city on September the 18th, and I'm thinking in playing either our deck, or Combo Elves, or Aggro Elves ^^ I don't have other decks.... hehe
I am predicting a very aggro heavy metagame with Goblins and other monocolor decks, so I'm not playing Skyshroud Elite. What do you guys suggest I put in his place, Tattermunge Maniac, with his 1 defense, or extra pumps, to try to combo faster. I also know there will be some Zoo's, so 4x Vines maindeck ???

Any ideas, thanks a lot ;)

[Gui]

Hi there, Gui, long time no see ^^

Autumn's Veil can definitely go as the 5th and 6th card in sideboard if you play in a very blue meta, but then I would suggest you play Goblins, hehe.

On the other hand, I must say that I have had some really bad experiences against monoblack control of evagreen. I feel that their Ritual, Tourach, Thoughtseize is waaaay too much for us, and not just that, but a simple 1st turn Thoughtseize to a creature followed by a snuff out, also kills us. Plummet wouldn't be the right card though, because my fear is not slowing Them down, but finding a way to recover from discard effects...

Against Zoo, the option I find most correct is getting the 4x Vines of Vastwood, and praying for a Berserk in hand, or Silhana plus Rancor. They are fast but so are we. There was a long testing on it pages ago, and they came up with a constant 50%, any ideas to get better than that ???




Now things apart, I am helding, and starting a Legacy League in my city on September the 18th, and I'm thinking in playing either our deck, or Combo Elves, or Aggro Elves ^^ I don't have other decks.... hehe
I am predicting a very aggro heavy metagame with Goblins and other monocolor decks, so I'm not playing Skyshroud Elite. What do you guys suggest I put in his place, Tattermunge Maniac, with his 1 defense, or extra pumps, to try to combo faster. I also know there will be some Zoo's, so 4x Vines maindeck ???

Any ideas, thanks a lot ;)

Yeah, I see autumn's veil as a better card against combo, denying bounces, than against control, even tho it can useful against heavy counter... and right now, I don't think we have room for it at SB as anti-blue tech, but maybe it could fit against combo decks, and only then, be considered a anti-blue. But mindbreak trap is probably better...

I think the same, against Zoo, our best bets are Silhana, bogle, vastwoods, rancor, possibly scrybs and any kind of evasion we can get. I would go with Fernandes' deck, that one you translated a few pages ago, if I was to fight aggro heavy. (I'm actually considering it, since I'm probably going to fight aggro heavy)
My current deck uses 3x Vastwood, and I carry the 4th at sideboard against Zoo. The other only SB I carry against Zoo is a singleton Bounty of the Hunt, because I think it may save some creature unexpectedly, and also because I carry 2x Krosan grip maindeck (personal choice) and side them out against Zoo. Also, this gets my pump count to 21, which means a better chance to combo

My testings against Eva Green and TA, a few ago, wasn't bad at all... maybe it's the list you play, or maybe only bad draws, but we are usually better on the "top deck" battle, since we always got more aggro, and our business makes our aggro better than theirs. Also, the consistancy of my "all forest" manabase helps against their sinkhole/wasteland plan.

LMK the list you are planning on take to the tourney? :D

[NihilObstat]

LMK the list you are planning on take to the tourney? :D

The one I'm working on now is:
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Skarggan Pit-skulk
4x Slippery Boggle
4x Kavu Predator
4x Silhanna Ledgewalker
2x Tattermunge Maniac

4x Berserk
4x Might of old Krosa
4x Invigorate
4x Rancor
3x Vines of Vastwood
3x Seal of Strength

16x Forest


I have decided not to play maindeck Artifact/Enchantment removal, because playing two of those cards is too random to actually be efficient against the decks we needs, and it's VERY annoying to draw them when we don't. So far I'm really happy with this decision, it makes the deck more constant. Also, I'm not expecting any Stax, not many Counterbalance, and anyway CB counters Viridian, and I need to check ruling, but would a "copied" Gleeful be a legal target for CB or not?

I LOVE Elvish Spirit Guide for this deck, but I can't find an easy spot for her... Her only posible room would be: +4x ESG for -1x Forest, -2x Tattermunge, -1x Seal. I'm not confident but I will test it out.

As far as sideboard goes, I play:
4x Seeds of Innocence
2x Reverent Silence
4x Vexing Shushser
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Gleeful Sabotage

I really don't know wether Tormod's or Relic is the best option for this deck. On one hands, drawing extra cards in this deck sounds like unbelieavble, and it's freaking awesome, but the 0 mana speed from Tormod's is amazing.
Relic can slow down Tarmos, and stop Grim Lavamancer completely, so it can go against Zoo as well as logically Dredge, Reanimate, Loam, etc.
I really have a problem choosing between those cards. Any comments on that?

I now a play a lot of Enx/Art in the sideboad, but I expect some Affinity and Enchantress. The problem is that I can't find room for the 4th Vines...

[Gui]

The one I'm working on now is:
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Skarggan Pit-skulk
4x Slippery Boggle
4x Kavu Predator
4x Silhanna Ledgewalker
2x Tattermunge Maniac

4x Berserk
4x Might of old Krosa
4x Invigorate
4x Rancor
3x Vines of Vastwood
3x Seal of Strength

16x Forest


I have decided not to play maindeck Artifact/Enchantment removal, because playing two of those cards is too random to actually be efficient against the decks we needs, and it's VERY annoying to draw them when we don't. So far I'm really happy with this decision, it makes the deck more constant. Also, I'm not expecting any Stax, not many Counterbalance, and anyway CB counters Viridian, and I need to check ruling, but would a "copied" Gleeful be a legal target for CB or not?

I LOVE Elvish Spirit Guide for this deck, but I can't find an easy spot for her... Her only posible room would be: +4x ESG for -1x Forest, -2x Tattermunge, -1x Seal. I'm not confident but I will test it out.

As far as sideboard goes, I play:
4x Seeds of Innocence
2x Reverent Silence
4x Vexing Shushser
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Gleeful Sabotage

I really don't know wether Tormod's or Relic is the best option for this deck. On one hands, drawing extra cards in this deck sounds like unbelieavble, and it's freaking awesome, but the 0 mana speed from Tormod's is amazing.
Relic can slow down Tarmos, and stop Grim Lavamancer completely, so it can go against Zoo as well as logically Dredge, Reanimate, Loam, etc.
I really have a problem choosing between those cards. Any comments on that?

I now a play a lot of Enx/Art in the sideboad, but I expect some Affinity and Enchantress. The problem is that I can't find room for the 4th Vines...

I like your list! ^^
Actually it looks a lot like what I use, like, the 16 forest manabase, the creature/pump spell choices. As I said, I like 2x Krosan grip but I'm aware it's not the standard choice to be used at maindeck. But I think the manabase is good enough for it, it surprises a lot of people when it shows, and it has won me some games already. Also, as 2-of, it's not that common for it to show unexpectedly as topdeck and be useless.

Gleeful copy bypass CB, yes, and it's a good choice ... I just find it annoying that CB+Top player usually got an answer for it anyways, and I prefer to play my anti-artifacts at the end of the opponent turn, so that he doesn't play another solution and ruin my day, and thus, I prefer Krosan Grip.

In my opinion, any choice between Tormods and Relic will do the same, Tormods is probably better for us, since we want it fast on the board and try to combo/rush while the opponent tries to figure a way to bypass it. I use Faerie Macabre myself, I think it's ability to be used as instant and the fact that it won't be countered is great, but, since reanimator is not that popular anymore, I'd probably suggest Tormods.
Also in my opinion, you could reduce the number of anti-artifact/enchantment in your sideboard since you miss 4th VoV against Zoo. Since zoo is one of the most popular decks these days, what do you think about switching Tattermunge for Scryb, I think scryb is a little superior against zoo (block + evasion)

[NecroYawgmoth]

I LOVE Elvish Spirit Guide for this deck, but I can't find an easy spot for her... Her only posible room would be: +4x ESG for -1x Forest, -2x Tattermunge, -1x Seal. I'm not confident but I will test it out.


This are exactly the same cards, I'd put out for her =)


all other things, are exactly like Gui says...

I'd Change my Sideboard to something like:


4x Vexing Shushser
3x Seeds of Innocence
1x Vines of Vastwood
2x Gleeful Sabotage

+1 Gleeful, +4 Gravehate, or +2 Reverent Silence, +3 Gravehate...

I'd choose the first

...against what decks you want Reverent Silence, btw.?
Gleeful is good enough against CB imo
&
Enchantress is a bad MU anyways, and they have Replenish and Karmic Justice >.>


YawG

[Gui]

Yawg, don't you think 3 gleeful + 3 seeds are way too much already? We could probably cut to 3-4x Seeds or 3-4x Gleeful, no?

[NecroYawgmoth]

hmm, maybe... IMO you need 3 Seeds in Sideboard...

I play 2 Gleeful main, so don't know...
Enchantments aren't a problem...

hmm, otherwise 3 Seeds could be enough, imo

[Gui]

hmm, maybe... IMO you need 3 Seeds in Sideboard...

I play 2 Gleeful main, so don't know...
Enchantments aren't a problem...

hmm, otherwise 3 Seeds could be enough, imo

Well, my point is that we got Vexing shusher as main SB against Counter, CB+Top and Chalice, and when we add artifact/enchant removal, we are also aiming for CB and Chalice.
IMO, once we got SB against combo (or simply deny SB against combo, which is the case), and increase the MU enough against CB, on which 4x Vexing and ~2-3 Gleeful should be enough, we should use the next few slots of SB to fight Zoo... doesn't metter how bad and stupid it is, siding pumps and evasive creatures is better against Zoo, and IMO, it's better to carry 3-4 anti-Zoo SB than to carry any anti-Affy/Enchantress/Stax solution.

Well, at least by here, Zoo is probably the most played deck, and their SB is more consistant than ours.

And too much sideboards means slower deck too.

[swordoffireandice]

Qasali Pridemage is the answer for me. It is a creature so always usefull when you draw it, it has exalted which is good for berserk a creature and it destroys Artifacts or Enchantments. What more do you want?

A minor splash of white for 3x Qasali Pridemage in my deck works just fine. (I have a fourth in my SB)
My mana base exists of 4x windswept heath, 4x wooded foothills, 1x Savannah and 8x forest.

It is always possible to start with a forest. You only search for the Savannah as a second or third land when you have Qasali in your hand or when you draw a Qasali Pridemage. One is enough because you only need the white mana one time. So they may destroy it with wasteland afterward if they can/want to.

I found that playing against Enchantress is not funny when they put down a Moat....one Qasali good win you the game.
And Enchantress is not playing Wasteland....:wink:

Krosan Gripp works also offcourse. I just need a solution for cards like Moat and Qasali is it for me.

[NihilObstat]

I'd Change my Sideboard to something like:

4x Vexing Shushser
3x Seeds of Innocence
1x Vines of Vastwood
2x Gleeful Sabotage

+1 Gleeful, +4 Gravehate, or +2 Reverent Silence, +3 Gravehate...

I'd choose the first

...against what decks you want Reverent Silence, btw.?
Gleeful is good enough against CB imo
&
Enchantress is a bad MU anyways, and they have Replenish and Karmic Justice >.>


I don't know who to quote, but thanks for so much posting ^^

I play Reverent against Enchantress, for the will be 2 for sure, and Replenish doesn't matter, because, Reverent for 0 mana, then pump, pump, pump, Kill. I feel enchantress is a decent match-up and the only way I usually see them beating us is with something like 2x Elephant Grass in their first hand.... And it gets very easy with Reverent, but you're right maybe it's too much fear... but realize that I will play no hate in maindeck.

I'll play 1x Scryb Sprites, because I can't find the others.... So the deck is as posted, but -1 Tatter, +1 Sprites.
I think nowadays this deck could generally consider playing Scryb again, with Zoo, and Merfolks being quite strong, flying is so sexy !!!

Seeds of Innocence I think I would need 4x because there will be a minimum of 4x Affinity out of 30-40 people, which is a big % I believe, but I'll test 3x these days. Zoos I don't know how many to predict.

So I want to focus my sideboard, to easily beat Blue: 4x Vexing, maybe Xx Rushwood Legate, Xx River Boa, Xx Autums Veil.
And to destroy Artifacts: 4x Seeds of Innoncence, 2x Gleeful Sabotage,

So it would look like:
4x Vexing, 3x Seeds of Innoncence, 1x Vines of Vastwood, 2x Gleeful Sabotage, and the last 4 cards: Xx ESG, Xx Rushwood Legate // 4x GraveH, 1x Rushwood // 2x Scryb (if I find them), 2x Rushwood // I usually only consider GraveHate if it comes in 4x, and I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Could you guys consider, sideboarding 4x - 3x Relic of Progenitus against Zoo?? Stop Tarmo and Grim Lavamancer completely if we draw it first hand, with it's 1st ability, and that's something they won't expect, and it's 8x cards of their deck, and I've died due to Lavamancer many times against Zoo. Do you guys think it's stupid or do you see it as a posible sideboard?

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Not sure why we need to be that worried about Affinity anyway. They still look like a worse Zoo, even with the new stuff spoiled so far for Scars of Mirrodin.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Not sure why we need to be that worried about Affinity anyway. They still look like a worse Zoo, even with the new stuff spoiled so far for Scars of Mirrodin.

also Seeds of Innocence + Kavu

[Gui]

Actually, yes, I like the idea of using Relic... or at least 2-of relic, since we don't want to spam them, just 1x would help, and wouldn't slow you down much.
I'm actually gonna add this to my list for some playtest

[NihilObstat]

This are exactly the same cards, I'd put out for her =)
YawG

I think I won't be taking ESG to the tourney, 15 land mana base, even with ESG has resulted in some crazy Mulligan time experienze... crazy, but out of 15 games yesterday, I had soo many hands, with only 1 ESG and 0 forest... XD
I will further test it, but I'm not sure.


To: Swordoffireandice
Talking about Qasali, I think that everyone in this foruum knows just how Good the card is, excellent, but then you have to add Fetchlands, which results in stupid, Fetch - Stiffle, I lose the game situations, specially since we don't paly Counters for Stiffle, or Ponder or Brainstorm to play in response looking for another land, and we only run 16-17 lands, so the risk is a very big risk. Just like Zoo playing against Threshold.



Sideboard: 4x Vexing, 3x Seeds, 1x Vines, 2x Gleeful, 2x Relic, 2x Tormod's, 1x Scryb Sprites/ Rushwood Legate (I also can't find the other Rushwoods, damn where are my cards ???? ^^)

[swordoffireandice]

I think I won't be taking ESG to the tourney, 15 land mana base, even with ESG has resulted in some crazy Mulligan time experienze... crazy, but out of 15 games yesterday, I had soo many hands, with only 1 ESG and 0 forest... XD
I will further test it, but I'm not sure.


To: Swordoffireandice
Talking about Qasali, I think that everyone in this foruum knows just how Good the card is, excellent, but then you have to add Fetchlands, which results in stupid, Fetch - Stiffle, I lose the game situations, specially since we don't paly Counters for Stiffle, or Ponder or Brainstorm to play in response looking for another land, and we only run 16-17 lands, so the risk is a very big risk. Just like Zoo playing against Threshold.



Sideboard: 4x Vexing, 3x Seeds, 1x Vines, 2x Gleeful, 2x Relic, 2x Tormod's, 1x Scryb Sprites/ Rushwood Legate (I also can't find the other Rushwoods, damn where are my cards ???? ^^)


I have been keeping track of the decks in Legacy playing Stiffle.....it is not being played maindeck anymore.....at least not by the majority of Legacy decks.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Ok, this may be random but I wanted to chime in. One thing that has always bothered me about this deck is Kavu Predator/ Invigorate. I just feel that Predator is a bad card. Invigorate is ok, because it's free, but I think it would be nice if a better pump spell came along.

But from playtesting this list a bit on MWS in the past, my reaction has always been that Predator is a pretty sub-par card, until you can get the little mini-combo off with it. I understand that Tarmogoyf is not right for this deck, and there may not even be a better two-drop available at this point, but I think it would be nice if something better was printed, and I was wondering what you all thought about the card in general.

[Gui]

I have been keeping track of the decks in Legacy playing Stiffle.....it is not being played maindeck anymore.....at least not by the majority of Legacy decks.
To put it simple, the difference between G and Gw versions is that Gw got better options with Qasali, Path, Double Cleave and all the sideboard pack that white adds, with the con of being susceptible to mana-hate, which are Wasteland (primary hate, usable at mostly any deck IF deck builder feels like), moon effects (also B2B, which works has the same idea) and then, stifle, as a tech some people use.

The benefits of going Gw hurts in a crucial point: to get a stable manabase against any Land Destruction deck while splashed, we can't rely on 15 Lands, for example.
Take into consideration that I'm not saying it's not possible, neither that it's bad. I'm just saying that this is a risk the player will decide whether to take or not (as for splashed versions of Goblins, i.e.).

That said, I prefer not taking that risk, and thus, I'm trying to tweak mono-green version. But, I think these versions are very similar to each other (not like the GRW version), and thus, each testing a mono-green player has can be used @ Gw version, and most of the tests Gw list got can be used at mono-G one


Ok, this may be random but I wanted to chime in. One thing that has always bothered me about this deck is Kavu Predator/ Invigorate. I just feel that Predator is a bad card. Invigorate is ok, because it's free, but I think it would be nice if a better pump spell came along.

But from playtesting this list a bit on MWS in the past, my reaction has always been that Predator is a pretty sub-par card, until you can get the little mini-combo off with it. I understand that Tarmogoyf is not right for this deck, and there may not even be a better two-drop available at this point, but I think it would be nice if something better was printed, and I was wondering what you all thought about the card in general.
Well, there were some testings regarding Kavu, which were mainly shitching him + Invigorate for Troll Ascetic + BotH. You can find it in Primer's references regarding Otter's testings.

IMO, troll is too slow for us. I think worse part about kavu is the same as evey other 1cc card in the deck, which is not having Trollshroud. Kavu is most players' main target for removals, which makes Vines of Vastwood a great card to use with him.
I've been discussing with Yawg about 4x VoV maindeck, and now I think he's right, we should add as many VoV as we can.

Which brings this up: should we add Avoid Fate to sideboard, against any spot-removals?

[NihilObstat]

Tournament report: I wasn't able to play Berserk..... :( :( I had borrowed the Berserks, and I couldn't get them back in time.... :( :( :(
But I will play it next month :) I played dredge instead, but that doesn't belong here.

I guy who I didn't know played Berserk though. I didn't see him and no one told me, but since I'm the organizer I checked the lists afterwards, and there was a Berserk Stompy using a high creature base: 4x Tattermunge (instead of Nettle Sentinel), 4x Skyshroud Elite plus the usuals. I think he took out some Pumps for them.

The side was: 4x Crumble, 4x Hidden gibbons, 3x Rushwood Legate, 4x Mindbreak trap

I will try to talk to him, so he gives us a report. He didn't place top8, but maybe he did good, I have to find him ^^


Which brings this up: should we add Avoid Fate to sideboard, against any spot-removals?

Avoid Fate just seems too much fear and paranoia to me. 4x Silhanas, 4x Boggle, 4x VoV seem like a big number of trollshroud for me ^^

[Gui]

These, along with Troll and VoV(if you are not running 4x) are the best sideboards we got against Zoo... I'm testing it's impact against zoo, but I still need more data.


On another topic, there's an infect 2cc green creature already, which is 1/1 and regenerates for 1g... The regeneration skill sux because it costs 1g, but there's now some hope that a 1/1 for g can come.

I've been thinking if 1/1 infect isn't good enough to deserve a try already... double damage w/o zerk might be great for us

[Tru3z3rox]

What do you guys think of blight mamba?

1/1 for 2 with infect and regenerate. Definitely deserves some attention although my creature list is extremely tight right now.

[Gui]

What do you guys think of blight mamba?

1/1 for 2 with infect and regenerate. Definitely deserves some attention although my creature list is extremely tight right now.
This is the creature I was talking about ^^

Definetly deserves our attention. It's like a creature with berserk on it... Spot removals will still get rid of her, but regen makes it harder, and so can VoV...

You know what I wanted most, :g: instant -> Target creature has infest until the end of the turn
It would be like +4 berserks ^^

[paeng4983]

i was with my six High school buddies the other
night, and we all decided to have a little fun. we played
a round robin legacy format (non sanction)
wherein the 1st placer will get all the 6
booster packs of M11 that we bought as our
registration fees. :) and the meta were:
5peso_stumpy, RDW, dredge, counterTOP, White_weenie
merpok and rogue deck (LOR block)

and here's what i can recall

1st counterTOP
1st and 2nd games, counterTOP kept us at bay several
times before the 12/12 dreadnaught deliver the win needed.
0-1

2nd rogue
my pets just run over him on both games. kavu being fed by
skyshroud cutter and invigorate for the win. :)
1-1

3rd dredge
he went off on 1st game on his turn TWO. WOW!
but for the next two games, nettle sentinel pumped with
two invigorates plus two berserks were just too awesome for
him to handle.
2-1

4th RDW
i run out of luck. kept on drawing lands during our 3rd game.
i lose.
2-2

5th merpok
in our 3rd game, rushwood legate was the bomb!
1st turn drop forest then two rushwood legates
and a skargan. wow next turn swing for 9 damage
(skargan enchanted with two rancors, SWEET)
3-2

6th white weenie
STP, PTE and friends that loves removing creatures
on the table were hurting me before a timely silhana
showed up and began the assault from there! yeah!
4-2

at the end of the night, i finished with a 4-2 win-loss
card finishing 3rd. :)

[NihilObstat]

3rd dredge
nettle sentinel pumped with
two invigorates plus two berserks were just too awesome for
him to handle.
2-1

5th merpok
in our 3rd game, rushwood legate was the bomb!
1st turn drop forest then two rushwood legates
and a skargan. wow next turn swing for 9 damage
(skargan enchanted with two rancors, SWEET)
3-2


Those hands are crazy ^^ Good luck !! ;)




To: Tru3z3rox
The 1/1 infect sounds like a possible new Kavu, don't you think guys? I mean, he has a non-sacrifice Berserk on him!!!
The only problem with infect is that the creatures don't deal damage, so it's 9 poision counters = Nothing !!! :S
The good thing with him is that we can still play Invigorate, because +3 life it's ok, while we get +4 poison counters ^^
I would probably try to use a more comboish version of the deck with Blight Mamba, though, probably w/ wordly tutor and those things.

To: Gui_Brasil
You have an outstanding imagination ^^ I would LOVE to see that card printed :)

[Tru3z3rox]

I'm just not sure what to pull for it. The list of creatures is so tight. Skarrgan Pit-skulk? Only one I can think of that is sort of a flex slot. He has amazing evasion though....

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well it looks like we are going to be splashing red now. With the printing of Assault Strobe:R Sorcery-Target creature gains double strike until end of turn, the red splash is looking mighty good right now. Assault Strobe is basically Beserk 5-8.

[Gui]

Well it looks like we are going to be splashing red now. With the printing of Assault Strobe:R Sorcery-Target creature gains double strike until end of turn, the red splash is looking mighty good right now. Assault Strobe is basically Beserk 5-8.

Yes, seems so. Not even double cleave or the protection mono color offers seems to beat the power this card would add to the deck.

Actually, Tainted strike seems like an even better option.
Instant :b:
Target creature gets +1/+0 and gains infect until end of turn.


Thinking a bit about it, this is one line to follow: add Tainted Strike and the new 2cc black 1/1 flying creature with infect (I think the name is "Plague Stinger") to the deck (maybe 2 or 3, maybe reducing the amount of Kavus, or adding accelerators to handle more 2cc creatures).

Black splash also allows us to add dures/toughtseize to sideboard, and possible Bob to maindeck or sideboard. Also let us play removals against Zoo.

[Tru3z3rox]

Actually I think green has enough for us to not need to splash. Color fixing could be a problem. This deck runs very little land and does not want to be disrupted at all. A single wasteland could ruin half of your hand. I've been a fan of seal of strength. I can drop it early when I'm mana screwed and save the later mana for berserk.

[Gui]

Actually I think green has enough for us to not need to splash. Color fixing could be a problem. This deck runs very little land and does not want to be disrupted at all. A single wasteland could ruin half of your hand. I've been a fan of seal of strength. I can drop it early when I'm mana screwed and save the later mana for berserk.

Well, maybe it has enough, but with another 1cc double damage card (even better, with a +1/+0) the deck would probably be a lot better than what green can do. Even if that means reviewing these 18lands lists, which were stable as monogreen. IMO we don't need a major splash, just enough for us to add the black zerk and the black 1/1 flying infect creature.


This would be a start:

4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Tainted Strike
4 Might of Old Krosa

2 Sarcomancy
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Plague Stinger

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest
4 Bayou

Sideboard could include duress, which is some aditional weapon against combo, and maybe smother, to deal with zoo critters, or diabolic edict, to use against Prog too...

[Tru3z3rox]

Well, maybe it has enough, but with another 1cc double damage card (even better, with a +1/+0) the deck would probably be a lot better than what green can do. Even if that means reviewing these 18lands lists, which were stable as monogreen. IMO we don't need a major splash, just enough for us to add the black zerk and the black 1/1 flying infect creature.


This would be a start:

4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Tainted Strike
4 Might of Old Krosa

2 Sarcomancy
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Plague Stinger

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
6 Forest
4 Bayou

Sideboard could include duress, which is some aditional weapon against combo, and maybe smother, to deal with zoo critters, or diabolic edict, to use against Prog too...

Name things that you want more of and I'll name you green cards that do them.

Infect creatures? The regenerating Mamba and Ichor Myr both can be used in green. I actually really like Ichor with rancor. Granted no evasion, but revelent abilities.

Green also offers Sylvan Library which is CA and card quality. I can't believe green lists are not running it.

P.S. - If you choose to run infect it is best to run only infect creatures. I've play tested a mixed list and I usually wished 1 was the other. We need to concentrate on actually damage or poison counters.

[Gui]

Name things that you want more of and I'll name you green cards that do them.

Infect creatures? The regenerating Mamba and Ichor Myr both can be used in green. I actually really like Ichor with rancor. Granted no evasion, but revelent abilities.

Green also offers Sylvan Library which is CA and card quality. I can't believe green lists are not running it.

P.S. - If you choose to run infect it is best to run only infect creatures. I've play tested a mixed list and I usually wished 1 was the other. We need to concentrate on actually damage or poison counters.

Yes, damage stacking is a problem that comes to mind, since it's useless to deal early damage and then try to kill with Tainted Strike... This has to be thought of, of course I have no idea on how effective it is yet.

The card I obviously named, and that green has no other option, is Tainted Strike (or red "Assault Strobe"), which are the additional Berserks. Well, at least the one card I wish I had every game is Berserk. These put us one step ahead in the combo plan, while is still the same in the aggro plan.

Sylvan Library isn't bad at all... have you been testing it? You could share your results... mine, long ago, were the same with or without it, to be honest.

[Tru3z3rox]

Yes, damage stacking is a problem that comes to mind, since it's useless to deal early damage and then try to kill with Tainted Strike... This has to be thought of, of course I have no idea on how effective it is yet.

The card I obviously named, and that green has no other option, is Tainted Strike (or red "Assault Strobe"), which are the additional Berserks. Well, at least the one card I wish I had every game is Berserk. These put us one step ahead in the combo plan, while is still the same in the aggro plan.

Sylvan Library isn't bad at all... have you been testing it? You could share your results... mine, long ago, were the same with or without it, to be honest.

Yes I've been thoroughly testing the mamba and the ichor lately and I've been hating it mixed in. We cannot do both in my opinion.

If red was to be splashed I'd say only for the Assault strobe. I think black is not worth it even for that infect pump spell as you'd want most of your dudes to have infect anyway. The issue with this card is that it is a sorcery.

Sylvan has always been amazing for me. I take tons of damage just to draw with it and fix my draw. It makes us much faster in my opinion especially power it out turn 1 with ESG. You can go for a kill a full 2 turns sooner if you pain yourself with the extra pump draw. Also it lets us race other combo decks better so that all of that disruption won't be necessary. After all...aren't we a combo deck?

So basically in other words the splash would only add 1 card. Worth it or not?

P.S. - Assault strobe doesn't give trample either which can be very relevant.

P.P.S. - Switching to a completely infect based creature base would cut down the need for such splashes and the need for berserk (still used, but only 10 damage needs to be done)

[Gui]

Yes I've been thoroughly testing the mamba and the ichor lately and I've been hating it mixed in. We cannot do both in my opinion.

If red was to be splashed I'd say only for the Assault strobe. I think black is not worth it even for that infect pump spell as you'd want most of your dudes to have infect anyway. The issue with this card is that it is a sorcery.

Sylvan has always been amazing for me. I take tons of damage just to draw with it and fix my draw. It makes us much faster in my opinion especially power it out turn 1 with ESG. You can go for a kill a full 2 turns sooner if you pain yourself with the extra pump draw. Also it lets us race other combo decks better so that all of that disruption won't be necessary. After all...aren't we a combo deck?

So basically in other words the splash would only add 1 card. Worth it or not?

P.S. - Assault strobe doesn't give trample either which can be very relevant.

Well, yes, Sylvan fix your draw, but as a combo deck, I found that I don't want to spend that amount of resources for something that tecnically won't add damage (unless of course you spend those 4 life per card, draw pumps, and spend these other :g: for them)... The speed you earn by fixing your draws, I earn by having more business... It ended up in the same way. Even tho, it's been some time since I last tested it, these were the conclusions I reached, but Libraries can be used, I see the point.

Stating that you need all creatures to have infect in order to play Tainted Strike is not true. What will happen is that you will have to hold tainted strike until you are able to grow your creature to 10/x. Having zerks and invigorates would help it out a lot too.

IMO, if you are playing Tainted Strike, you don't even want to run extra infect creatures, since 2x infect won't stack, and you'll end up with an useless card. Not even know if it's worth running 4-of Tainted Strike due to that reason. But the red one can be used as 4-of for sure. (edit: not that sure, since it won't stack one to the other either...)

And yes, my opinion so far is that the addition of 1cc Berserks is already worth the splash. And, there are the sideboard options too. Red also got some spot removals and reckless charge, and black got disruption and decent removals.

[Tru3z3rox]

Well, yes, Sylvan fix your draw, but as a combo deck, I found that I don't want to spend that amount of resources for something that tecnically won't add damage (unless of course you spend those 4 life per card, draw pumps, and spend these other :g: for them)... The speed you earn by fixing your draws, I earn by having more business... It ended up in the same way. Even tho, it's been some time since I last tested it, these were the conclusions I reached, but Libraries can be used, I see the point.

Stating that you need all creatures to have infect in order to play Tainted Strike is not true. What will happen is that you will have to hold tainted strike until you are able to grow your creature to 10/x. Having zerks and invigorates would help it out a lot too.

IMO, if you are playing Tainted Strike, you don't even want to run extra infect creatures, since 2x infect won't stack, and you'll end up with an useless card. Not even know if it's worth running 4-of Tainted Strike due to that reason. But the red one can be used as 4-of for sure.

And yes, my opinion so far is that the addition of 1cc Berserks is already worth the splash. And, there are the sideboard options too. Red also got some spot removals and reckless charge, and black got disruption and decent removals.

I see your point, but what if you needed a specific creature or pump spell that was the 3rd card down? Or you needed 2 of the cards on top in order to finish it. My point is simply that it fixes your draw very well and I only run it as a 3 of anyway. You should give it a try. You won't regret it.

The infect creatures only need to do 10 damage total in order to win, but having to wait for a pump card to add infect could be pointless if you've almost won with actual damage anyway. The only issue I find with them is that they are inferior in their evasion and protection. Sylhana has won me so many games against heavy removal decks. If we go all in on infect then splashing is definitely not necessary (I'm hoping they print a troll shrouded infect creature soon). If we stay with out current creature base it would be more worth it to splash for red than black.

[Gui]

I see your point, but what if you needed a specific creature or pump spell that was the 3rd card down? Or you needed 2 of the cards on top in order to finish it. My point is simply that it fixes your draw very well and I only run it as a 3 of anyway. You should give it a try. You won't regret it.

The infect creatures only need to do 10 damage total in order to win, but having to wait for a pump card to add infect could be pointless if you've almost won with actual damage anyway. The only issue I find with them is that they are inferior in their evasion and protection. Sylhana has won me so many games against heavy removal decks. If we go all in on infect then splashing is definitely not necessary (I'm hoping they print a troll shrouded infect creature soon). If we stay with out current creature base it would be more worth it to splash for red than black.

Well, but i'm not suggesting going all-in infect. I'm suggesting to use it as 5-8 Berserk, and possibly using a creature that would have a self-included Berserk. Tainted Strike wouldn't work at a infect creatures base.

The worse part about the black one is that it won't help you finish the game when you did a considerable amount of damage, and would have to hold your pumps until you can kill your opponent, which is already HIGHLY recommended. The good part is the +1/+0, and the fact that enables us to run these disruptive sideboard options we all know.

The good part about the red one is that Etienne's List will become even more powerfull :D

The reason why either new zerks are worse than original berserk is that neither stacks with a second copy.

A list with 7-8 zerks, looking a lot like our current list, but with the minor splash, would increase our chance to combo a lot, while almost the same at any other situation.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Yes, seems so. Not even double cleave or the protection mono color offers seems to beat the power this card would add to the deck.

Actually, Tainted strike seems like an even better option.
Instant :b:
Target creature gets +1/+0 and gains infect until end of turn.


Thinking a bit about it, this is one line to follow: add Tainted Strike and the new 2cc black 1/1 flying creature with infect (I think the name is "Plague Stinger") to the deck (maybe 2 or 3, maybe reducing the amount of Kavus, or adding accelerators to handle more 2cc creatures).

Black splash also allows us to add dures/toughtseize to sideboard, and possible Bob to maindeck or sideboard. Also let us play removals against Zoo.

Hmmm, I am inclined to disagree. What I don't like about the infect plan, poison counters are only useful when we get them to 10. What happens when you almost get there, and your infect dude is dealt with. I think the cost here is greater than usuall, because where as regular damage is never wasted, having your opponent stuck at 9 poison counters and no infect card in sight is game over. Red would give us goblin guide and lightning bolt as well, and the as to which splash would be better should be thoroughly tested. Mono green stompy is defunct now though. Green Stompy doesn't cut it anymore, so who really cares about the safety a mono manabase provides. The red or black splash though could make a deck that could possibly take it in some metas.

[Gui]

Hmmm, I am inclined to disagree. What I don't like about the infect plan, poison counters are only useful when we get them to 10. What happens when you almost get there, and your infect dude is dealt with. I think the cost here is greater than usuall, because where as regular damage is never wasted, having your opponent stuck at 9 poison counters and no infect card in sight is game over. Red would give us goblin guide and lightning bolt as well, and the as to which splash would be better should be thoroughly tested. Mono green stompy is defunct now though. Green Stompy doesn't cut it anymore, so who really cares about the safety a mono manabase provides. The red or black splash though could make a deck that could possibly take it in some metas.

Yet, the black one got the +1/+0 (+1 counter out of 10, meaning something like +2 dmg), and can cancel Invigorate's drawback entirely, meaning Invigorate + any other pump + Black zerk = kill

I'm not saying black is set on stone tho, just pointing the viable tricks

For example, Rancor is a lot less usefull with the black pump.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Yet, the black one got the +1/+0 (+1 counter out of 10, meaning something like +2 dmg), and can cancel Invigorate's drawback entirely, meaning Invigorate + any other pump + Black zerk = kill

I'm not saying black is set on stone tho, just pointing the viable tricks

True, but in general the kill will be about the same speed. My qualm is mainly with the infect flyer who comes down turn 2, and whose damage is only relevant if you go all the way. It could also lead to us having to over-extend with our pumps into a kill spell. Funny enough Kavu Predator kills with Invigorate + pump + red zerk, although I do see your point with the black zerk negating the drawback of invigorate and that kills with ANY creature by itself. Still, I am not convinced that the black splash will be much faster than the red splash and feel the red splash will have more consistency. Only 1 creature with infect, and only 1 pump spell with infect. Granted, the access to discard for the combo match is intriguing.

[Tru3z3rox]

Well, but i'm not suggesting going all-in infect. I'm suggesting to use it as 5-8 Berserk, and possibly using a creature that would have a self-included Berserk. Tainted Strike wouldn't work at a infect creatures base.

The worse part about the black one is that it won't help you finish the game when you did a considerable amount of damage, and would have to hold your pumps until you can kill your opponent, which is already HIGHLY recommended. The good part is the +1/+0, and the fact that enables us to run these disruptive sideboard options we all know.

The good part about the red one is that Etienne's List will become even more powerfull :D

The reason why either new zerks are worse than original berserk is that neither stacks with a second copy.

A list with 7-8 zerks, looking a lot like our current list, but with the minor splash, would increase our chance to combo a lot, while almost the same at any other situation.

I know what you meant. I was advocating staying mono green and just having all infect creatures making the black infect pump invalid.

That is my point exactly. In my playing it has been really annoying stuck with one or the other and not being able to finish the game. I guess what I am saying is if I HAD TO splash it'd be for red and not black. I feel the red spell is better than the black and I'd only run it as a 2-3 of. I just feel that splashing for 2-3 extra cards is not worth it. I also play elves and merfolk so I know what disruption can do. Hence I'm advocating the safety of mono green.

P.S. - It also means that ESG isn't as godly as in a mono G deck.

[Tru3z3rox]

Yet, the black one got the +1/+0 (+1 counter out of 10, meaning something like +2 dmg), and can cancel Invigorate's drawback entirely, meaning Invigorate + any other pump + Black zerk = kill

I'm not saying black is set on stone tho, just pointing the viable tricks

For example, Rancor is a lot less usefull with the black pump.

Yes that is the first thing I noticed with the infect mechanic. Invigorate does become that much more deadly.

Rancor is actually the weakest pump in the deck, but I like it as I can stick it on and swing for 3-5 a turn with silhana until I get the extra pump. That is the same reason I like the seals. You drop them and they are a scary board presence.

[Tru3z3rox]

By the way..here is my list just for reference.
Deck

Lands:
8 Forests
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforests
1 Windswept Heath


Enchantments:
3 Sylvan Library
4 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor

Instants:
4 Berserk
2 Vines of Vastwood
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate

Creatures:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
3 Noble Hierarch

[Gui]

Yes that is the first thing I noticed with the infect mechanic. Invigorate does become that much more deadly.

Rancor is actually the weakest pump in the deck, but I like it as I can stick it on and swing for 3-5 a turn with silhana until I get the extra pump. That is the same reason I like the seals. You drop them and they are a scary board presence.

I don't agree that rancor is the weakest pump: Rancor is an awesome pump for our second plan: aggro (a.k.a. the reason to play berserk stompy instead of a regular combo deck like ANT/TES). With rancor, we stack some early damage so that the final blow demands us less cards, and it's final damage end up to be as deadly as the other pumps.

That turns me more to the red berserk side, since with the black one, we would be giving up to be giving up aggro, which is so good against controls decks running blue, like threshold. Red zerk is better at stacking damage, and then final blow, which is our common strategy...

Only thing is that black still gives us more sideboard options...

While for mono green, I think blight mamba (which would be double as awesome if her name was "Black Mamba") is the first (only?) thing to try... It is awesome because of its synergy with invigorate


EDIT:
@Tru3z3rox
Don't you miss bogle @ you list? I think Bogle is an important piece against current Zoo infested meta

[Tru3z3rox]

I don't agree that rancor is the weakest pump: Rancor is an awesome pump for our second plan: aggro (a.k.a. the reason to play berserk stompy instead of a regular combo deck like ANT/TES). With rancor, we stack some early damage so that the final blow demands us less cards, and it's final damage end up to be as deadly as the other pumps.

That turns me more to the red berserk side, since with the black one, we would be giving up to be giving up aggro, which is so good against controls decks running blue, like threshold. Red zerk is better at stacking damage, and then final blow, which is our common strategy...

Only thing is that black still gives us more sideboard options...

While for mono green, I think blight mamba (which would be double as awesome if her name was "Black Mamba") is the first (only?) thing to try... It is awesome because of its synergy with invigorate


EDIT:
@Tru3z3rox
Don't you miss bogle @ you list? I think Bogle is an important piece against current Zoo infested meta

Silhana is enough as I also run invigorate to boost predator out of bolt range and vines of vastwood to protect against path. Zoo is not a difficult match.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I don't agree that rancor is the weakest pump: Rancor is an awesome pump for our second plan: aggro (a.k.a. the reason to play berserk stompy instead of a regular combo deck like ANT/TES). With rancor, we stack some early damage so that the final blow demands us less cards, and it's final damage end up to be as deadly as the other pumps.

That turns me more to the red berserk side, since with the black one, we would be giving up to be giving up aggro, which is so good against controls decks running blue, like threshold. Red zerk is better at stacking damage, and then final blow, which is our common strategy...



QFT

@Tru3: Red also gives you Goblin Guide who is absolutely insane here. The Red Berserk would definitely be a 4 of in such a splash, as would Goblin Guide, and those cards alone merit trying out the red splash.

[Tru3z3rox]

I think I prefer the white splash actually. It gives us:

Pridemage + Exalted
Double Cleave (Instant as opposed to a Sorcery)
Color fixing and stacked exalted with Noble Hierarch

[Gui]

I think I prefer the white splash actually. It gives us:

Pridemage + Exalted
Double Cleave (Instant as opposed to a Sorcery)
Color fixing and stacked exalted with Noble Hierarch

Double Cleave is worse than the options, even being an instant, since you rarely demand berserk to be an instant and 1cc is way better than 2cc to combo, but pridemage/noble part is true. Also, the GRW list can use Assault Strobe instead of Fling now.


What bothers me is that neither Double Strike nor Infect will stack if you use the same card twice, so, running 4x might result into a situation where you could combo, but will have to do it twice. That will require some test.


Now, another card that caught my attention is Infiltration Lens. I know, it reads as "Target creature is unblockable unless you are really dying" :P
It doesn't put us one step ahead for the kill, but will enable early creatures w/o evasion to hit, as Nettles or early Skarrgs... and if they let us draw 2 cards, even better.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

What bothers me is that neither Double Strike nor Infect will stack if you use the same card twice, so, running 4x might result into a situation where you could combo, but will have to do it twice. That will require some test.




True, but also they don't kill the creature like Berserk does, so they offsets the drawback in a way.

[HAL]

This might have been discussed already, but isn't Nature's Claim awesome in the SB? Although I think it might be better in the builds that run closer to 14-15 lands rather than 17-18. When you have more lands K-grip is better 100% of the time, but if you rarely hit that 3rd land drop natures claim seems to be superb in conjunction with kavu predator.

[Gui]

This might have been discussed already, but isn't Nature's Claim awesome in the SB? Although I think it might be better in the builds that run closer to 14-15 lands rather than 17-18. When you have more lands K-grip is better 100% of the time, but if you rarely hit that 3rd land drop natures claim seems to be superb in conjunction with kavu predator.

Our main target for Artifact/Echantment removals are Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, which are far more played than any other artifact/enchantment. Against either, Nature's claim is worse than gleeful sabotage or than krosan grip, or even seal of primordium. Nature's Claim can only deal with either chalice or cb IF you got vexing shusher, which would already put you in advantage against these anyways...

[NihilObstat]

QFT
@Tru3: Red also gives you Goblin Guide who is absolutely insane here. The Red Berserk would definitely be a 4 of in such a splash, as would Goblin Guide, and those cards alone merit trying out the red splash.

I must say that mono-green tends to be a little too slow for beating real combo, and even though the black options you've said would make us a lot more comboish, red also represents an increase of Speed and constancy.
Goblin Guide is a crazy ********, I've played him in boros, seen him in monoR, some goblins, an he's superb.
Also, as someone said, what does the fact that Assault Strobe is sorcery actually matter, I mean, seriously, how often do we attack with 2-3 creatures, and the opponent has 2 creatures to block, and therefore we pump the free one........ It just doesn't happen. When we pump, we pump, and if he has removal he'll spend it after the instant as he would after the sorcery.

I will give G-R a try. Maybe add a couple lands, and probably some other 2cc crits. I would only play 2 or maximum 3 of the new Zerk. Not for the stacking problem, but because if we have 8 Berserk, how are we supposed to pump the creatures? ^^ There's no room for everything. I also see Seal of Strength gaining importance with 6-7 zerks, better than VoV, although we would lose our precious trollshroud...

I have to add that I see black as a really good colour for the deck: Dark Confidant would be our MVP, then the new Zerk, and a possible 1x Flying infect.

I don't know if you guys know about it, but there's a fun spanish Black-Green version of Berserk that goes like this:
4x False Cure 4x Kavu Predator
4x Invigorate 4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Reverent Silence 4x Summoner's Pact
4x ESG 4x L.Petal.
It's a lot more combo, and hilarious. Not good though ^^ But you should try it for casual.




One last thing, all of us should keep in mind:
We all complain about losing stability in a 3 color build, but if we go to deckcheck, all I see are Etienne's lists, with 3 colors. Are we maybe too obsessed, should be give 3 colors a try? I don't have duals, but maybe you guys do ^^

[Tru3z3rox]

I must say that mono-green tends to be a little too slow for beating real combo, and even though the black options you've said would make us a lot more comboish, red also represents an increase of Speed and constancy.
Goblin Guide is a crazy ********, I've played him in boros, seen him in monoR, some goblins, an he's superb.
Also, as someone said, what does the fact that Assault Strobe is sorcery actually matter, I mean, seriously, how often do we attack with 2-3 creatures, and the opponent has 2 creatures to block, and therefore we pump the free one........ It just doesn't happen. When we pump, we pump, and if he has removal he'll spend it after the instant as he would after the sorcery.

I will give G-R a try. Maybe add a couple lands, and probably some other 2cc crits. I would only play 2 or maximum 3 of the new Zerk. Not for the stacking problem, but because if we have 8 Berserk, how are we supposed to pump the creatures? ^^ There's no room for everything. I also see Seal of Strength gaining importance with 6-7 zerks, better than VoV, although we would lose our precious trollshroud...

I have to add that I see black as a really good colour for the deck: Dark Confidant would be our MVP, then the new Zerk, and a possible 1x Flying infect.

I don't know if you guys know about it, but there's a fun spanish Black-Green version of Berserk that goes like this:
4x False Cure 4x Kavu Predator
4x Invigorate 4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Reverent Silence 4x Summoner's Pact
4x ESG 4x L.Petal.
It's a lot more combo, and hilarious. Not good though ^^ But you should try it for casual.




One last thing, all of us should keep in mind:
We all complain about losing stability in a 3 color build, but if we go to deckcheck, all I see are Etienne's lists, with 3 colors. Are we maybe too obsessed, should be give 3 colors a try? I don't have duals, but maybe you guys do ^^

That Green/Black deck you're referring to is called "The Cure". It is not a bad build as it utilizes the gain life aspect more instead of pump. It is not a bad build (I've tried it), but I don't like mana screw. Which is why I don't splash.

You don't care about them using removal on the creature you're pumping? That is so bad...You've invested your entire hand into 1 creature only to get it bolted or pathed. BEING A SORCERY DOES MATTER, because then they know which creature you're going for. It is only negligible for troll shrouded creatures.

I still don't find it worth it to splash for 2-3 new cards. Waste of time, money, and subject to mana screw. If you want to dig for pump or zerk then run sylvan libraries.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

One last thing, all of us should keep in mind:
We all complain about losing stability in a 3 color build, but if we go to deckcheck, all I see are Etienne's lists, with 3 colors. Are we maybe too obsessed, should be give 3 colors a try? I don't have duals, but maybe you guys do ^^

This is true, I can't wait till people realize Monogreen Berserk sucks and we should try something new. The whole added stability thing is moot point if the deck loses. Oh great yeah your wastelands are dead, but umm I still lost. MONOGREEN IS TEH BEST!!!! We are not Merfolk, and sometimes they splash too. There is a reason Zoo plays 3 colors. Also I find the argument that we would be just a bad zoo deck if we go into more colors silly as well. That still does not illustrate why monogreen is better than multi, just that berserk decks are not as good as zoo. However, with the new printings, a multi color berserk deck might have a place in the metagame. Or you can keep on trying to make your monogreen pet deck better and just hit a wall. And you are going to hit that wall really fast in the name of stability. Sometimes the safe move is the reckless maneuver.

[Tru3z3rox]

I don't agree. Green provides us with enough. Troll shroud on its own destroys zoo. I've never lost a game against zoo.

I just looked on deck check and so far I've only seen 1-3 decks that have been multi colored. More is splashed for white than for red. Black didn't seem to be splashed at all. The only card splashed for red is 2 flings (or the new one).

[kicks_422]

If you do end up splashing red for Assault Strobe, you might want to take a look again at Kiln Fiend. A single Berserk/Strobe gives it a +6 power boost.

[Tru3z3rox]

If you do end up splashing red for Assault Strobe, you might want to take a look again at Kiln Fiend. A single Berserk/Strobe gives it a +6 power boost.

I actually agree to that. Kiln fiend is great in those decks that splash red. Along with 2 flings that would be sweet.

[NihilObstat]

I don't agree. Green provides us with enough. Troll shroud on its own destroys zoo. I've never lost a game against zoo.

I just looked on deck check and so far I've only seen 1-3 decks that have been multi colored. More is splashed for white than for red. Black didn't seem to be splashed at all. The only card splashed for red is 2 flings (or the new one).

You should also look at the number of player in the tournaments and the position those Stompy decks get. Etienne Villani has
2nd of 50, 2nd of 34, 4th of 44, 1st of 44. If you look at the other decks in deckcheck, most have places 3rd-8th out of 15-20 people...
You are right though, he "only" splashed for fling, or the very very crappy Kird Ape, right, compared to Skyshroud Elite, ape is so crappy..... jk.
But that was before our new 5-8th BERSERK ^^

On the other hand, I bet you are a lucky boy, because there was a long and complete testing on Zoo vs Zerk a few pages ago, and we all agreed that the pairing is 50%, not 100%. Even with Libraries.


What I meant that I don't care if my creatures get removed is that, if we are pumping Kavu, Skarggan, Nettle Sentinel or others, the thing is that if we don't have VoV and we pump them, and the other has removal, it won't matter if our Zerk runs instant speed, or sorcery, removal kills us anyway, and on a shroud creatures it definitely doesn't matter if it's instant or sorc. He has shroud !!!
What I meant is that there is no difference in pumping a creature after blockers have been assigned or before, at least not for our deck, and specially not if we run 6-7 Zerks, because the creature will run over anything.




Also I keep saying to go 3 colors, because I've tested it on MWS, and yes land-disruption sucks, but the rest of pairing are a piece of cake with that decks unstoppable speed, it's amazing. You all should try it at least on MWS. I also don't have Duals or I would try it in real life ^^

[Gui]

This is true, I can't wait till people realize Monogreen Berserk sucks and we should try something new. The whole added stability thing is moot point if the deck loses. Oh great yeah your wastelands are dead, but umm I still lost. MONOGREEN IS TEH BEST!!!! We are not Merfolk, and sometimes they splash too. There is a reason Zoo plays 3 colors. Also I find the argument that we would be just a bad zoo deck if we go into more colors silly as well. That still does not illustrate why monogreen is better than multi, just that berserk decks are not as good as zoo. However, with the new printings, a multi color berserk deck might have a place in the metagame. Or you can keep on trying to make your monogreen pet deck better and just hit a wall. And you are going to hit that wall really fast in the name of stability. Sometimes the safe move is the reckless maneuver.

Yet, most of the time it's not.

Stating that monogreen is worse without posting compared results, just saying it will lose anyway, is not good enough, IMO.

Saying that the way you just did is also offensive to everyone that had put any effort on tweaking that version.

To make a fair comparison between Zoo and 3c Berserk stompy, one'd have to compare results against different matchups and see which fits the meta best. When I say that there's no reason to play Zoo over 3c stompy it's just because Zoo is way more played, and thus, way more tested and tweaked, and proved itself more than stompy did. You'll just spend the same at a deck not as well finished.

Also, there are not enough test results to state that a splashed stompy would win more than a monocolor one.

The monogreen one is not as bad as you say, it's probably the faster and safer way to pump-combo ftw, since it can consistantly run 15 lands w/o accelerators, providing more fuel for the final blow, and more creatures, so that you can still play the aggro role against control decks.


EDIT: That said, I still think we won't lose consistancy by splashing red for the additional berserks. I think we can do that as a minor splash, and depend only on a few Taigas for that. That's why I still think it's slightly superior to monocolor version.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Yet, most of the time it's not.

Stating that monogreen is worse without posting compared results, just saying it will lose anyway, is not good enough, IMO.

Saying that the way you just did is also offensive to everyone that had put any effort on tweaking that version.

To make a fair comparison between Zoo and 3c Berserk stompy, one'd have to compare results against different matchups and see which fits the meta best. When I say that there's no reason to play Zoo over 3c stompy it's just because Zoo is way more played, and thus, way more tested and tweaked, and proved itself more than stompy did. You'll just spend the same at a deck not as well finished.

Also, there are not enough test results to state that a splashed stompy would win more than a monocolor one.

The monogreen one is not as bad as you say, it's probably the faster and safer way to pump-combo ftw, since it can consistantly run 15 lands w/o accelerators, providing more fuel for the final blow, and more creatures, so that you can still play the aggro role against control decks.


EDIT: That said, I still think we won't lose consistancy by splashing red for the additional berserks. I think we can do that as a minor splash, and depend only on a few Taigas for that. That's why I still think it's slightly superior to monocolor version.

Fair enough. Perhaps in trying to make a strong point, I said things too strongly. I apologize if I offended anyone :)

[NihilObstat]

To make a fair comparison between Zoo and 3c Berserk stompy, one'd have to compare results against different matchups and see which fits the meta best.

That's what we need, testing. People who actually take Berserk to a tournament and post results. Even MWS could work. I don't have right now, because I have a Mac, and it doesn't work for mac.... :( can anyone help me with that?

That said, post results, please. 3colors-2colors-monocolor ^^

[Tru3z3rox]

Yet, most of the time it's not.

Stating that monogreen is worse without posting compared results, just saying it will lose anyway, is not good enough, IMO.

Saying that the way you just did is also offensive to everyone that had put any effort on tweaking that version.

To make a fair comparison between Zoo and 3c Berserk stompy, one'd have to compare results against different matchups and see which fits the meta best. When I say that there's no reason to play Zoo over 3c stompy it's just because Zoo is way more played, and thus, way more tested and tweaked, and proved itself more than stompy did. You'll just spend the same at a deck not as well finished.

Also, there are not enough test results to state that a splashed stompy would win more than a monocolor one.

The monogreen one is not as bad as you say, it's probably the faster and safer way to pump-combo ftw, since it can consistantly run 15 lands w/o accelerators, providing more fuel for the final blow, and more creatures, so that you can still play the aggro role against control decks.


EDIT: That said, I still think we won't lose consistancy by splashing red for the additional berserks. I think we can do that as a minor splash, and depend only on a few Taigas for that. That's why I still think it's slightly superior to monocolor version.

Exactly. Thank you for understanding my point. I also understand what you mean about the splash. Are you still sure that white splash is not better?

I plan to take Zerk stompy to my next local (10-15) players and then to a larger tournament (25-30 or 45+) depending on how I feel.

And I agree about the testing. We all need to thoroughly test each build before arguing it heavily. I'll play test it heavily on sunday and then proxy up the white and red splashes to see which worked better for me. The reason I'm so anti-splash is because I've played the cure before. It is basically black splash zerk. I was usually color screwed or mana flooded. I rarely won in time. That is my reasoning.

[Gui]

Exactly. Thank you for understanding my point. I also understand what you mean about the splash. Are you still sure that white splash is not better?

I plan to take Zerk stompy to my next local (10-15) players and then to a larger tournament (25-30 or 45+) depending on how I feel.

And I agree about the testing. We all need to thoroughly test each build before arguing it heavily. I'll play test it heavily on sunday and then proxy up the white and red splashes to see which worked better for me. The reason I'm so anti-splash is because I've played the cure before. It is basically black splash zerk. I was usually color screwed or mana flooded. I rarely won in time. That is my reasoning.

I know The Cure, I usually read its forum, since some of their techs are similar to ours. I believe Berserk Stompy is more consistant than The Cure because we have some of The Cure's synergies, like Kavu+Invigorate, but we are not dependant on them to win. OFC they are not 100% dependant, but they depend a lot more than we do. A simple Silhana+Rancor can win us some games, or even a bunch of 1cc creatures, while they wish to chain their techs.

The mana screw is also why I defend a minor splash. If we run a manabase with forests, fetchlands, and taigas, then we can fetch taiga only when really needed, and even if it get wasted, we will have used it already.

I believe red is better because it accelerates us better, we can run more "zerks". White has Double Cleave, but it costs too much, it's pretty hard to chain that with VoV for example. But since white got the advantage of Noble Hierarch and Qasali, it's not certain, that's just what I think. Kiln Fiend and Goblin Guide are good options for the R splash, but if we add too much R, we'd have to reduce the amount of Forests (probably for more fetchlands) and by that, being more suceptible to mana screw. It could probably still have consistancy, tho.

[DrJones]

I've been testing some new ideas (and cards) on The Cure, the goldfish has improved dramatically and here are some results of the early testing of ten games with no mulliganing:

Going first:
2nd turn kill: 2
3rd turn kill: 6
4th turn kill: 1 (no lands hand)
5th turn kill: 1

Going second:
2nd turn kill: 4
3rd turn kill: 5
autoloss: 1

I'm still tweaking numbers, but it looks promising so far. And I think I finally addressed the manascrew problem. I'm reading the thread to see if I can steal some tech.

[Tru3z3rox]

I understand. My logic is that hierarch helps us bridge the gap and helps against color screw and wastelands. The 1 extra mana could be relevant though. It is still close to Etienne's list as we would use double cleave instead of fling.

[NihilObstat]

The reason I'm so anti-splash is because I've played the cure before. It is basically black splash zerk. I was usually color screwed or mana flooded. I rarely won in time. That is my reasoning.

I understand perfectly the advantatges of staying monocolor, but if splashing 1 or 2 colors is so drastically bad, how does Zoo win any games? I mean 70% minimum of the decks in most metas run Wasteland. And Zoo wins. We would be a faster, removeless Zoo in the 2 colors. I will proxy this up, and test it this weekend.

[Tru3z3rox]

I understand perfectly the advantatges of staying monocolor, but if splashing 1 or 2 colors is so drastically bad, how does Zoo win any games? I mean 70% minimum of the decks in most metas run Wasteland. And Zoo wins. We would be a faster, removeless Zoo in the 2 colors. I will proxy this up, and test it this weekend.

Fair point. I have not seem zoo in our meta as of late though. And there is 1 difference between zoo and us. Their creatures stand alone. Ours require pump spells. So we are more similar to a combo deck as they play the aggro role. I feel our mana is more precious than theirs.

[Gui]

This is the list I'm going to test:

4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa
2 Vines of Vastwood

3 Kird Ape
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
3 Kiln Fiend

3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
7 Forest
4 Taiga

I believe the small amount of 1cc red creatures can play in my favor, demanding Forest in the first turns, so that the base remains stable. Kird ape can be switched by Goblin Guide later, I just wanna test Ape first, since he got no drawback...
I'm not playing 4-of strobe just because its effect doesn't stack, and not playing 4x Kiln just because I got no room =P

[Tru3z3rox]

This is the list I'm going to test:

4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa
2 Vines of Vastwood

3 Kird Ape
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
3 Kiln Fiend

3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
7 Forest
4 Taiga

I believe the small amount of 1cc red creatures can play in my favor, demanding Forest in the first turns, so that the base remains stable. Kird ape can be switched by Goblin Guide later, I just wanna test Ape first, since he got no drawback...
I'm not playing 4-of strobe just because its effect doesn't stack, and not playing 4x Kiln just because I got no room =P

Why not go down on an ape and up on a fiend? It seems like the fiend has much more synergy with the deck...you don't even have to zerk him for him to be huge. Just stick a rancor on him!

[swordoffireandice]

Kird ape is not good in this deck, I tried white 1 mana creatures but that also did not work. You always want a forest to start with. Not a Taiga or a mountain.

[Gui]

Kird ape is not good in this deck, I tried white 1 mana creatures but that also did not work. You always want a forest to start with. Not a Taiga or a mountain.

Hmmm... what do you suggest, then? -3 kird, +2 Nettle, +1 Kiln?

I think, with only 3 Kird, I'll usuallly have another 1cc creature, and would use kird as a second turn creature, but you are right, since I already want Skarrg to enter second turn whenever I'm able delay...

[LordEvilTeaCup]

While the ape is a good card, Goblin Guide is far more explosive and is worth the drawback. It's nice that Kird Ape is G and not R which makes it easier to consistently land him into play turn 1, but Goblin Guide has so much to offer here.

[Gui]

While the ape is a good card, Goblin Guide is far more explosive and is worth the drawback. It's nice that Kird Ape is G and not R which makes it easier to consistently land him into play turn 1, but Goblin Guide has so much to offer here.

There are 2 drawbacks on goblin guide, it costs R and might accelerate your opponent. Not saying it's bad, but a we have to take care with that. I know how awesome a 2/2 1cc with haste is, but if we are on the draw, and they land a 2/3 goyf at second turn, we traded 2 dmg for having a creature that helps the opponent. And I don't like the idea of making the CB+top matchup harder (they will take advantage of top when guide attacks).

I think I preffer Nettle over Guide.

[NihilObstat]

While the ape is a good card, Goblin Guide is far more explosive and is worth the drawback. It's nice that Kird Ape is G and not R which makes it easier to consistently land him into play turn 1, but Goblin Guide has so much to offer here.

Guys, Kird Ape costs 1 Red, not Green.

[Tru3z3rox]

Anyone thoroughly tested the red splash yet? I'll be testing a bunch tomorrow.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Guys, Kird Ape costs 1 Red, not Green.

Ha ha lol, my bad. Silly silly teacup :laugh:

@Gui: Goblin Guide doesn't accelerate the opponent, the lands just go into their hands. Still a drawback, but not as bad. Even in the CB mu, I like Goblin Guide, because of the extra speed he provides.

[Gui]

Ha ha lol, my bad. Silly silly teacup :laugh:

@Gui: Goblin Guide doesn't accelerate the opponent, the lands just go into their hands. Still a drawback, but not as bad. Even in the CB mu, I like Goblin Guide, because of the extra speed he provides.

It does accelerate if it gives him more cards and options than he would have normally. It's not a small drawback there, even against decks that can't manipulate its topdeck. I still think Nettle is better for us. R in the first turn is a drawback by itself, imo.
Also, lots of the Zoo decks use Loam Lion or Kird Ape over Goblin Guide for a reason too.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

It does accelerate if it gives him more cards and options than he would have normally. It's not a small drawback there, even against decks that can't manipulate its topdeck. I still think Nettle is better for us. R in the first turn is a drawback by itself, imo.
Also, lots of the Zoo decks use Loam Lion or Kird Ape over Goblin Guide for a reason too.

I know what you are saying, but that is not how you use the term accelerate. At least, I am used to hearing it used concerning getting more mana resources and such. *Shrug* I could be wrong I guess. Also, Zoo doesn't play pump spells like we do and you can do nasty things with a hasty beater and pump in hand. What I am saying in a nutshell, we take better advantage of the haste than zoo could. If we also go back to using accelerants like ESP or something, he would be even crazier.

[Gui]

I know what you are saying, but that is not how you use the term accelerate. At least, I am used to hearing it used concerning getting more mana resources and such. *Shrug* I could be wrong I guess. Also, Zoo doesn't play pump spells like we do and you can do nasty things with a hasty beater and pump in hand. What I am saying in a nutshell, we take better advantage of the haste than zoo could. If we also go back to using accelerants like ESP or something, he would be even crazier.

I caught your point... yes, tecnically we use "accelerate" when we get more mana in less turns, like ESG, petal, moxes... That's not wrong, it make you able to land some card before you otherwise would.

But think like this: If the guy has no creature in his hand and is going to draw a land for the next turn, and you attack him and he draw that land, and if the card after the land was a creature, he's now able to land a creature before he otherwise would.
That's pratically the same concept, imo.

Using ESG with Gr version makes no much sence... I'd first try lotus petal, since now we need to care about color... And also, it reduces the amount of creatures and pumps we got even further, since we already reduce it to deal with a less consistant manabase. If we reduce creatures too much, we are more succeptible to control decks and to spot removals, and if we nerf pumps, we will find it harder to combo.

I guess it can be tested, tho. If you do that, please, keep us up to date. ^^

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I caught your point... yes, tecnically we use "accelerate" when we get more mana in less turns, like ESG, petal, moxes... That's not wrong, it make you able to land some card before you otherwise would.

But think like this: If the guy has no creature in his hand and is going to draw a land for the next turn, and you attack him and he draw that land, and if the card after the land was a creature, he's now able to land a creature before he otherwise would.
That's pratically the same concept, imo.

Using ESG with Gr version makes no much sence... I'd first try lotus petal, since now we need to care about color... And also, it reduces the amount of creatures and pumps we got even further, since we already reduce it to deal with a less consistant manabase. If we reduce creatures too much, we are more succeptible to control decks and to spot removals, and if we nerf pumps, we will find it harder to combo.

I guess it can be tested, tho. If you do that, please, keep us up to date. ^^

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Have you tested Goblin Guide a lot yet? When I use him, his drawback is usually not a big deal, but perhaps your testing yielded different results. Also the ESG was just an example of an accelerant so don't look to far into my comment :P However, such a build would indeed have a greater vulnerability, but whether it's worth it or not depends entirely on what you are playing against.

[NihilObstat]

Using ESG with Gr version makes no much sence... I'd first try lotus petal, since now we need to care about color... And also, it reduces the amount of creatures and pumps we got even further, since we already reduce it to deal with a less consistant manabase. If we reduce creatures too much, we are more succeptible to control decks and to spot removals, and if we nerf pumps, we will find it harder to combo.

I will remind you of Etienne's lists again. I have played all of them on MWS, I really think you should try them. You'll love them.
He runs 4x Lotus petal + 4x ESG + 16 lands. That's because if we accelerate so much, we don't need too many pumps. Our creature will be big and fast and will be a huge presence from the beginning so Pumping is only used for the win. Berserk, Invigorate, Rancor, 2x Fling---maybe Assault Strobe now.
I've we go first turn. Land + Lotus -- Kavu /// Kird + Rancor /// Nacatl + Rancor /// Qasali Pridemage. What do we want Might ooKrosa, or Seal of Str. for ?? And again, he doesn't run Boggle nor Silhana nor Vines of Vastwood, and he beats 40-50 people!! I understand monogreen needs Shroud. Or even GR needs shroud, but 3 colors seems to be fine without it.

Also, I really like Goblin Guide, but I'm not sure if he's good enough for Legacy... I'm starting to think that any free advantage for the opponent may be too big in legacy.

[Tru3z3rox]

I will remind you of Etienne's lists again. I have played all of them on MWS, I really think you should try them. You'll love them.
He runs 4x Lotus petal + 4x ESG + 16 lands. That's because if we accelerate so much, we don't need too many pumps. Our creature will be big and fast and will be a huge presence from the beginning so Pumping is only used for the win. Berserk, Invigorate, Rancor, 2x Fling---maybe Assault Strobe now.
I've we go first turn. Land + Lotus -- Kavu /// Kird + Rancor /// Nacatl + Rancor /// Qasali Pridemage. What do we want Might ooKrosa, or Seal of Str. for ?? And again, he doesn't run Boggle nor Silhana nor Vines of Vastwood, and he beats 40-50 people!! I understand monogreen needs Shroud. Or even GR needs shroud, but 3 colors seems to be fine without it.

Also, I really like Goblin Guide, but I'm not sure if he's good enough for Legacy... I'm starting to think that any free advantage for the opponent may be too big in legacy.

I see your point, but just because you have a few creatures doing some early damage doesn't mean you can consistently win. If they outclass your creatures or use removal on all of them then you're left with nothing. I think it is a bad move not to run sylhana in the very least.

I think a balance of good, evasive creatures and pump is the way to go. If I splashed red I would go for kiln fiend and assualt stroke (4 and 2 respectively). Kiln fiend pretty much has build in pump and only requires a berserk, however he does require trample as he does not have evasion. This makes rancor even more invaluable. You can infact pump 2 creatures and then choose to berserk any one of them.

[Masamune]

This is the list I'm going to test:

4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa
2 Vines of Vastwood

3 Kird Ape
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
3 Kiln Fiend

3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
7 Forest
4 Taiga

I believe the small amount of 1cc red creatures can play in my favor, demanding Forest in the first turns, so that the base remains stable. Kird ape can be switched by Goblin Guide later, I just wanna test Ape first, since he got no drawback...
I'm not playing 4-of strobe just because its effect doesn't stack, and not playing 4x Kiln just because I got no room =P

Listen:

1) Run 4 Copperline Gorge. What u think?
2) Is Assalt Strobe so good? U can't kill easy with no trample abilities, or an effective evasive way
3) Ettienne list with petal, ESG making so fast than mono green version with throllshroud maybe a good way to beat. Why not try with it?

Again, these new awesome dual lands make sense when we run only 16~18 lands...mana screw will not be a real problem right now ;)

[Tru3z3rox]

Copperline Gorge is strictly worse than any other dual land.

I agree that you still need trample abilities that is why you have rancor and berserk.

I didn't understand your last one. Are you saying a faster list is better than troll shroud?

So you think wastelands won't affect your duals? What if you have 1 dual land and a few red cards in your hand and your dual gets wasted?

[NihilObstat]

So you think wastelands won't affect your duals? What if you have 1 dual land and a few red cards in your hand and your dual gets wasted?

I understand all your points, and I don't want people to get angry with me, I'm playing monogreen afterall...

My point is, that right now we have to be realistic. I love monogreen, I love Berserk stompy, but I can't seem to win consistantly with it, sure I can do a 3-3 or 4-4, even 4-2 in a tournament but no one seems to win any important things with just G, so if we want this deck to actually see some importance, and not just "near-casual" fun, we would need to change our lists a bit.
Utopias are beautiful and magical in paper, but they don't tend to work in real life. I'm merely saying that if you come with a couple of actual reports from anywhere in the world of +30 players in which any monogreen Berserk places in top8 I might consider staying monogreen, if not I must keep saying that 3colors, or 2colors is better than mono. Sure we are open to disruption but we also gain a lot of speed, good cards, and new techs.

[Masamune]

Ok. My point is:
Do not run few lands althought is a good one.

4x Cooperline
4x taigas

Maybe 4x other dual like Stomping ground and other slots with fetchs...
The number of lands will up to twelve maybe, but you will aways have in table red and green mana, or run 17 lands and 4x Noble or petals...

My list (must to be tested) with 19 lands

4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa

3 Goblin guide
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Kiln Fiend

3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
4 Stomping Ground
4 Coperline Gorge
4 Taiga

Also IMO infect isn't a good option. Boros Swiftblade with DS is better i guess even with red and white mana... We can kill with 10 damage with Boros Swiftblade for exemple. So not necessary run 2cc 1/1 infect. A single MOK can crush the opponent with just 10 damage. I prefer Kiln and boros than infect creatures.

[Tru3z3rox]

I understand all your points, and I don't want people to get angry with me, I'm playing monogreen afterall...

My point is, that right now we have to be realistic. I love monogreen, I love Berserk stompy, but I can't seem to win consistantly with it, sure I can do a 3-3 or 4-4, even 4-2 in a tournament but no one seems to win any important things with just G, so if we want this deck to actually see some importance, and not just "near-casual" fun, we would need to change our lists a bit.
Utopias are beautiful and magical in paper, but they don't tend to work in real life. I'm merely saying that if you come with a couple of actual reports from anywhere in the world of +30 players in which any monogreen Berserk places in top8 I might consider staying monogreen, if not I must keep saying that 3colors, or 2colors is better than mono. Sure we are open to disruption but we also gain a lot of speed, good cards, and new techs.

Then I suggest splashing for red for 3 kiln fiends and 2 assault strobes. White could splash path and double cleave, but I think red is the more aggressive splash. Now that you mention in I may take berserk stompy to my next 40+ tournament and see how I do.

[Tru3z3rox]

Ok. My point is:
Do not run few lands althought is a good one.

4x Cooperline
4x taigas

Maybe 4x other dual like Stomping ground and other slots with fetchs...
The number of lands will up to twelve maybe, but you will aways have in table red and green mana, or run 17 lands and 4x Noble or petals...

My list (must to be tested) with 19 lands

4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa

3 Goblin guide
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Kiln Fiend

3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
4 Stomping Ground
4 Coperline Gorge
4 Taiga

Also IMO infect isn't a good option. Boros Swiftblade with DS is better i guess even with red and white mana... We can kill with 10 damage with Boros Swiftblade for exemple. So not necessary run 2cc 1/1 infect. A single MOK can crush the opponent with just 10 damage. I prefer Kiln and boros than infect creatures.

If I were you I'd run a few more forests and at least a few more fetches. No need for copperline gorge or stomping, because you cannot fetch them and they have citpt.

Also I'd cut boggle for either Elvish Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal and Goblin Guide for Sylvan Library. I really hate not having a library on the board, because it draws me into so much. Perhaps find a way to stick in a couple of seals in there? Otherwise looks like a solid list.

[Gui]

I understand all your points, and I don't want people to get angry with me, I'm playing monogreen afterall...

My point is, that right now we have to be realistic. I love monogreen, I love Berserk stompy, but I can't seem to win consistantly with it, sure I can do a 3-3 or 4-4, even 4-2 in a tournament but no one seems to win any important things with just G, so if we want this deck to actually see some importance, and not just "near-casual" fun, we would need to change our lists a bit.
Utopias are beautiful and magical in paper, but they don't tend to work in real life. I'm merely saying that if you come with a couple of actual reports from anywhere in the world of +30 players in which any monogreen Berserk places in top8 I might consider staying monogreen, if not I must keep saying that 3colors, or 2colors is better than mono. Sure we are open to disruption but we also gain a lot of speed, good cards, and new techs.

Berserk stompy got some results, but that proves nothing but the fact that Villani is a great player. And Cesar got some tops too, with monogreen.

These are the Berserk Stompy shows at deckcheck: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Berserk+Stompy&format=Legacy
There are 3 lists, all 3 from Villani, with 3 colors. There are 3 Gw, and the other 9 are Green.

Seriously, lets focus on improving lists, either 1c, 2c or 3c, instead of focusing on which list should be played by which player. This discussion makes no sense. If the guy is here asking how to improve his green list, telling him to play Gr is the same as saying "Don't play stompy, play Zoo" by simple extrapolation.

[Masamune]

Yep i agree. I wanna test with new red zerk splashing with red version. Good pumps and faster combo. Many fetchs and few forests is nice.

Anyone want to make a new deck list with Assalt Strobe?

[NihilObstat]

No need for copperline gorge or stomping, because you cannot fetch them and they have citpt.

Also I'd cut boggle for either Elvish Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal and Goblin Guide for Sylvan Library. Perhaps find a way to stick in a couple of seals in there? Otherwise looks like a solid list.

You can fetch Stomping Ground, for it is also Forest Mountain, and Seal of Strength loses some power next to Kiln Fiend. Next to Fiend even Rancor loses potential. Rancor is of course a 100% correct choice, but next to Fiend, only ins/sorc are good.
I've also been thinking lately about adding Sylvan Library to monogreen, but it won't work on a list with Kiln Fiend either for the same reason as the Seal. Do you sideboard Sylvan out of the deck in the 2nd game, so opponent draws some useless Krosan Grip ?

To Gui_Brasil: You are right, and I'm sorry for being so bossy, but the point is, won't this forum get really confusing with people asking about improving monogreen, then RG, then WG, then RWG, then BG, etc.?
About the lists on deckcheck, you should realize that the 9 monogreen belong to 10-19 people tournaments, which aren't really actual testing, I believe, except 1 list that runs Groundbreaker :O


My next big tournament is on october the 23rd. I'll write a short report then, and unless I get some Taigas borrowed I'll stick to monogreen.

[Gui]

@Masamune

Don't use copper, it's bad. It can't be used first turn, which is the reason why you want to increase the amount of 2c lands to something over 12.

If you are already using 4 Duals and 8 Fetches and the results are still bad, just add a mountain or two instead of a forest or two. I'm pretty sure, for the amount of red you are using, 4 Duals and 8 Fetchs are enough.

[Tru3z3rox]

You can fetch Stomping Ground, for it is also Forest Mountain, and Seal of Strength loses some power next to Kiln Fiend. Next to Fiend even Rancor loses potential. Rancor is of course a 100% correct choice, but next to Fiend, only ins/sorc are good.
I've also been thinking lately about adding Sylvan Library to monogreen, but it won't work on a list with Kiln Fiend either for the same reason as the Seal. Do you sideboard Sylvan out of the deck in the 2nd game, so opponent draws some useless Krosan Grip ?

To Gui_Brasil: You are right, and I'm sorry for being so bossy, but the point is, won't this forum get really confusing with people asking about improving monogreen, then RG, then WG, then RWG, then BG, etc.?
About the lists on deckcheck, you should realize that the 9 monogreen belong to 10-19 people tournaments, which aren't really actual testing, I believe, except 1 list that runs Groundbreaker :O


My next big tournament is on october the 23rd. I'll write a short report then, and unless I get some Taigas borrowed I'll stick to monogreen.

I generally don't board out the libraries because their grips can then target my seals and rancors. It can provide enough CA even if you only get to use it once anyway. It lets you dig for that berserk and extra pump which makes up for the fact that we can only run 4 berserks.

[Gui]

To Gui_Brasil: You are right, and I'm sorry for being so bossy, but the point is, won't this forum get really confusing with people asking about improving monogreen, then RG, then WG, then RWG, then BG, etc.?

Well, to be honest, that's not up to me if this thread should split or not.

What I can say is that Goblins have Rg, Rw, Rb, monoR, each with a lot of different choices, and they are still a single forum... And Goblins is way more popular than Stompy...

[Tru3z3rox]

Bad news guys. We didn't end up having a tournament tonight. It will have to wait until next week.

I did get in a few games. I played 2 against Doomsday Tendrils and one against 43 lands.

I went 1:1 against doomsday with mono green. Man...racing tendrils is really nerve racking though.

[paeng4983]

here's what i can share after the som, i just hope you guys like it.
feel free to say anything on it

13 forest
3 wooded foothills
2 misty rainforest

4 esg
4 noble heirarch
4 blight mamba
4 cystbearer
4 Ichorclaw Myr

2 worldly tutor

4 rancor
4 might of old krosa
4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 vov

your thoughts guys..

[Magic-Style]

These are the Berserk Stompy shows at deckcheck: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy
There are 3 lists, all 3 from Villani, with 3 colors. There are 3 Gw, and the other 9 are Green.


2 more list, one in R/G Beast and one in Zoo. But they are Berserk Stompy :)

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24022
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20244

[Tru3z3rox]

Cystbearer is pretty bad. The other two are OK. There are not enough good infect creatures to make it viable and fast. They also have no protection or evasion. As soon as they print a 1/1 troll shroud infect creatures I'm going to convert. Haha...until then there is just too much removal in the format not to run silhana.

[Masamune]

@Masamune

Don't use copper, it's bad. It can't be used first turn, which is the reason why you want to increase the amount of 2c lands to something over 12.

If you are already using 4 Duals and 8 Fetches and the results are still bad, just add a mountain or two instead of a forest or two. I'm pretty sure, for the amount of red you are using, 4 Duals and 8 Fetchs are enough.

lol I misread the text of the land! U're right, is very bad xD
No one has yet said about Boros Swiftblade, playing with a 3 colors base... IMO infect creatures is VERY BAD.
Most common combo decks in Legacy works with only two cards like this: Dream + Conflux / GrindStone + Painter's Servant / Vampire Hexmage + Dark Depths / SaT + Emrakul / Counterbalance + Sensei / Stifle + Dreadnought / Nat. Ord. + Green creature... With infect creature u must to have beyond one or two pumps or 'zerks... a fucking removal disrupt everything.

One hint: NEVER use three cards to make a combo in Legacy cuz will NEVER works. You will die before put all cards togheter in table or search all of then drawing with draw spell or tutors. Examples: Power Artifact + Grim Monolith + Stroke of Genius / Basalt Monolith + Ring + Staff of Domination / Oversold Cemetery + 2x Oriss, Samite Guardian ... etc...etc....

There sre also any other combos with two cards wich doesn't work anymore like Isochron Scepter + Orin's Chant / Helm of Obedience + Leyline ...
Any Pithing Needle or just a Krosan Grip = delay :(
So...any Lightning Bolt / STP / Path / Smother = delay to infect creatures. Boggles and Silhanas are better. In Legacy, our creatures aways will die. AWAYS. END. Goblin Welder, Bob's and many others suffers enough even as Painter's, Goyfs, Stalkers and infect creatures.

[Masamune]

Cystbearer is pretty bad. The other two are OK. There are not enough good infect creatures to make it viable and fast. They also have no protection or evasion. As soon as they print a 1/1 troll shroud infect creatures I'm going to convert. Haha...until then there is just too much removal in the format not to run silhana.

Yeah! Said all

[Gui]

here's what i can share after the som, i just hope you guys like it.
feel free to say anything on it

13 forest
3 wooded foothills
2 misty rainforest

4 esg
4 noble heirarch
4 blight mamba
4 cystbearer
4 Ichorclaw Myr

2 worldly tutor

4 rancor
4 might of old krosa
4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 vov

your thoughts guys..

This is an interesting approach... Cystbearer is kinda slow, but you can accelerate with esg, petal and hierarch
Maybe also run Sylvan Library to dig these... I'm not sure on how that will work, but it could be good... The bad point, IMO, is the lack of evasion and lack of trollshroud


@Magic-Style a.k.a. Etienne Villani
That's true, and there are the CHaPuZaS results too, but I believe deckcheck cuts decks from prior 2008 (more than 2years ago, maybe?)
IIRC, CHaPuZaS won a tourney with 192 players... That's a good result, IMO. But I believe he plays more Vintage than Legacy nowadays...

[Masamune]

Ah! I forgot to share with you guys my results with BS (monogreen version) last tournament.
My placement was 8th over 30~32 players.

List:

3x Wooded Foothills
2x Myst Rainforest
12x Forests

4x Boggle
4x Silhana
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Pit-Skulk
4x Kavu
4x Skys. Elite

4x Rancor
3x Seal of S.
4x Invigorate
4x Berserk
4x MoK

1) BS vs. Mono Black Suicide / discard
My deck is faster than bob's and pumps. Discard cards like HTT and Duress dealy me but boggles and silhanas rancored allowed my opp quit. The opp jittes with counters did his like up but with zerks i did double damage :D 2x1

2) BS vs. Reamimator
Tormod's Crypt not worked as I wanted... SaT and Lim-Dûl vault did my opp play Iona first (not boarded yet) and Emrakul after :( 0x2

3)BS vs. U/W Aggro
I crush my opp first with a awesome hand. Boggle, Rancor, fetch, zerk, Mok. Second game, boarded my opp with Vial did a fucking Silver Kinight in resp, making my nettle go to the grave. Many pumps in hand, no creatures. Fow and counters slowing me down while Serra avenger killed me. Last game Stoneforge bring a Jitte and fows again slowing me down... jitte won itself :( 1x2

4) BS vs. MonoWhiteStax
First, good hand. My opp not played any CoTV or Trinispheres! Strange....the deck was very very slow.... Ghostly prision appears and a Smokestack, but when my opp was 6 life...
Second game boarded with grips, I was destroyed a Obl. Ring that targed a nettle, and a Exalted Angel was in table when a Kavu was there also LOL. I top deck a invigorate. My opp died with a creature 26/14 trample
That's it. Stax was very slow (LOL?) 2x0

5) BS. vs. Goblins
Very easy :D My deck was very fuckin faster. No vials come up... my opp blocks just a creature and another crossed through dealing exactly the power I needed. 18 life lost and i won :D 2x0

Top Eight:

6) BS vs. G/W Beats
I'm a fool, a IDIOT!! >:(
I did not knew trample abilitie could cross beyond the stupid Mother of Runes inflicting damage enough to win.... ¬¬ I did one time despite this..... 1x2 Drop ;(

I wanna play with my BS again, make a new SB and play better....I know lesson learned...
After all i love this deck very much :D

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Ah! I forgot to share with you guys my results with BS (monogreen version) last tournament.
My placement was 8th over 30~32 players.

List:

3x Wooded Foothills
2x Myst Rainforest
12x Forests

4x Boggle
4x Silhana
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Pit-Skulk
4x Kavu
4x Skys. Elite

4x Rancor
3x Seal of S.
4x Invigorate
4x Berserk
4x MoK



Congrats on the finish, but why do you have the fetchlands in the deck? In monogreen it's usually best to just thrown down plain old forests.

[NihilObstat]

13 forest
3 wooded foothills
2 misty rainforest

4 esg
4 noble heirarch
4 blight mamba
4 cystbearer
4 Ichorclaw Myr

2 worldly tutor

4 rancor
4 might of old krosa
4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 vov

I would try -4x ESG, +4x Lotus Petal, -4x Cystbearer, +4x Plague Stinger, and maybe try Silvan Library. I would consider things like Briar Shield with infect, because there is a lot bigger different from 1 to 2 counters, than from 1 to 2 damage, it's twice the difference.

[Masamune]

Congrats on the finish, but why do you have the fetchlands in the deck? In monogreen it's usually best to just thrown down plain old forests.

I just saw CHaPuZaS's list with five fecths and I decided run with it ^^ I like to accelerate with fetch, but I'm changing my mind nowadays... cuz a single Magus of The Moon or Blood Moon can slow me down...

[Tru3z3rox]

Good job dude. Ya discard is a tough match as well as stax and other control decks, but you seemed to do well. You use slightly more creatures in the deck than I do. What is your sideboard?

[Tru3z3rox]

Congrats on the finish, but why do you have the fetchlands in the deck? In monogreen it's usually best to just thrown down plain old forests.

Disagree. Fetches thin the deck so you only draw business spells and they become even better with sylvan library!

[Masamune]

Well...my SB:

1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
2x Seeds of Innocence
4x Rushwood Legate
4x Vexing Shusher

[Tru3z3rox]

You may want to think about autumn's veil. It is a good hard counter to control, although shusher may be more consistent.

[Masamune]

Nah... CB/Top will kill me with control. Susher allow me cast berserk and creatures with 1cc without problem

[Phaedrus]

@Masamune
Don't use copper, it's bad. It can't be used first turn

Just wanted to say that the new SoM dual-lands can be used the first, second and third turns without any penalty. Copperline Gorge is essentially a Taiga in any deck that only needs 3 land to function. The new dual-lands are perfect for aggressive, low-mana requirement decks.

<going back into lurker mode now>

[Masamune]

Wait..... i don't catch yet....the land can be used or not? We MUST TO HAVE ohter land in play to come untapped or not??? Oo

I'm confused about it

[NihilObstat]

Just wanted to say that the new SoM dual-lands can be used the first, second and third turns without any penalty. Copperline Gorge is essentially a Taiga in any deck that only needs 3 land to function. The new dual-lands are perfect for aggressive, low-mana requirement decks.
<going back into lurker mode now>
Copperline Gorge, is indeed a Dual land for our deck, for everyone who can't pay Taigas. It isn't fetchable, but still Cheap!

"Copperline Gorge enters the battlefield tapped unless you control two or fewer other lands." Fewer can indeed be = 0


At Masamune: Congratulations for your 8th place !
I always seem to die stupidly against monoblack, probably just because of God hands on the other side, and Stax also shows like quite a complicated pairing. I see you run 18 lands, and I think I might increase mine too... I'm sick of mulligans because of 0 lands, or keeping hands with 1 land, and not drawing more...


At tru3z3rox: Using fetchlands on monogreen as been thoroughly discussed on this forum already, so I suggest that anyone does what they want, and no one discuss any more. It has "some" advantages, and it has "other" disadvantages, choose which you want.

[Phaedrus]

Wait..... i don't catch yet....the land can be used or not? We MUST TO HAVE ohter land in play to come untapped or not??? Oo

I'm confused about it

From the SoM FAQ:

The Scars of Mirrodin set includes a cycle of five lands that produce two colors of mana and enter the battlefield tapped unless you control two or fewer other lands.

* If one of these lands is your first, second, or third land, it enters the battlefield untapped. If you control three or more other lands, however, it enters the battlefield tapped.

* If one of these lands enters the battlefield at the same time as one or more other lands (due to Scapeshift or Warp World, perhaps), it doesn’t take those lands into consideration when determining how many other lands you control.

[Gui]

I discourage using any fetchland in monogreen version. To be honest, thinning your deck is not even sensible as result... actually everytime I fetch a Forest in monogreen I shuffle a forest to the top, and that's twice as anoying.

Fetchs are target to moon effects and to stifle, and there is no amazing reason to use that. Monogreen is already thin enough, the extra % of chance is just not worth it.

Well, actually there is, and it's when you use Sylvan Library. In that case, you could possibly take advantage of it.

[paeng4983]

i dont know gui but i love the interaction of
cracking your fetchland + shuffle your deck + praying hard so that you'll be drawing berserk ftw

and i've done that many many times. :)

regarding the plague stinger - well yeah this guy is definitely much
faster to cast than crystbearer. :) i might replace noble with birds and
add lotus petal as my accel. sad to say i dont have bayou. :)

and here's my updated list

4 verdant catacomb
1 windswept heath
7 forest
1 swamp
3 savannah

4 stp
1 lotus petal

4 esg
4 birds
4 plague stinger
4 blight mamba
4 Ichorclaw Myr

4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 vov
4 might of old krosa
3 seal of strenght

[Magic-Style]

Tainted Strike is a great card for G/B Berserk Stompy, with Kavru/Cutter/Invigorate. Gain life is not a probleme with Infect :)

I thinking for a G/r/b liste :

G => Kavru/ Cutter/Invigorate/Berserk
b => Dark confidant/Tainted Strike
r => Kind fiend/Assault Strobe

??

[TheSleeper]

Anyone tested with a Berserk-Infect.dec like Matt Sperling suggested in his recent set review. List is as follows:

4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede
3 Blight Mamba
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Plague Stinger
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Berserk
2 Colossal Might
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Assault Strobe
4 Reckless Charge

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills

Personally on paper I think infect could be a fun way to go for this deck (unless you're persuing Kavu/life gain). Pump spells are basically 2x as strong on an infect creature. Plus its POISON... and who doesn't love poison.

[Tru3z3rox]

I agree that poison is stronger on paper, but the issue then becomes how vulnerable are your creatures compared to the traditional ones? How evasive are they? A mono G infect deck is much stronger than a non infect deck, but the fact of the matter is infect is very vulnerable to removal. As I've said before, when they make a troll shrouded infect creature I'll be the first to convert.

I have a feeling that by the next set the infect idea will be much more popular.

[Masamune]

Copperline Gorge, is indeed a Dual land for our deck, for everyone who can't pay Taigas. It isn't fetchable, but still Cheap!

"Copperline Gorge enters the battlefield tapped unless you control two or fewer other lands." Fewer can indeed be = 0


At Masamune: Congratulations for your 8th place !
I always seem to die stupidly against monoblack, probably just because of God hands on the other side, and Stax also shows like quite a complicated pairing. I see you run 18 lands, and I think I might increase mine too... I'm sick of mulligans because of 0 lands, or keeping hands with 1 land, and not drawing more...


At tru3z3rox: Using fetchlands on monogreen as been thoroughly discussed on this forum already, so I suggest that anyone does what they want, and no one discuss any more. It has "some" advantages, and it has "other" disadvantages, choose which you want.

If we can play new SOM duals in first without penalty, so its a good opportunity to test with splash.
Anyway I run with 17 lands not 18 in my current list. 5 Fetchs and 12 forests. With no mana screw, not witnessed lands in the top, nothing. It works with me and I'm not planning remove all of then.

Again: if you want to run infect creatures you would think about REMOVALS and EVASION. Silhanna have both and work perfectly at the moment. THINK>>> we can do 18~20 damage with monogreen version BUT with trollshroud help. Infect creatures is good against combo decks or any other we must to beat faster than no infect. You will try to pump, but your weak creature will be die before or after. Run with Autunn's Veil or any other stuff will take important slots and will be "the-three-card-combo-must-to-work-togheter" susceptible to HTT, Thoughtseizes and any counter...
I thought about it and my deduction is splash double strike stuffs than infect and stay with trollshroud :(

[Gui]

I think Infect Stompy could use infect creatures along with Kavu, since invigorate is good for bot, and Tarmogoyf, since he's the bigger it gets for 2cc... And Nacatl, which is the bigger it gets for 1cc... That way, even if you had to combo with non-infect creatures, you'd be able to reach the high dmg needed, even without prior damage stacking, from prior attacks.



On a totally different topic, what do people usually side against Life from the Loam.dec and decks like Rock and GBW?

My current sideboard, giving up any side against combo, is as follows:
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Rushwood Legate
4 Grave Hate - this can be any combination of Tormods, Relic and Faerie
2 Krosan Grip (got 2 Gleeful maindeck)
1 Vines of Vastwood

I was wondering if it's worth to side-in vexing against loam due to chalices, and what to remove for them, pumps or creatures...

[Masamune]

Bah... maybe you'll try with it...let's go...

Masamune's infect list:

4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Polluted Delta
4x Bayou
1x Overgrowth Tomb
1x Volrath Stromghold
2x Swarmyard
2x Pendelhaven
1x Urborg, ToY
1x Forest
1x Swamp

4x Ichorclaw Myr
4x Plague Stiger
4x Dark Confidant
4x Virulent Sliver
4x Blight Mamba

2x Throne of Geth
4x Vampire's Bite
3x Rouse
4x Dark Ritual
4x Invigorate
4x Berserk



I prefer run DS splash.... its better I guess whatever....... I like:
Viashino Slaughtermaster
Boros Swiftblade
Warren Instigator
etc...
Anyway this is my list to test. SB maybe run Thoughtseizes and Leylines.

[Tru3z3rox]

I was testing the mono green infect list last night running 12 infect creatures total. While it is much faster (turn 2-3 kill) it is very vulnerable to creature removal and even jittes (they are all 1/1s). I was beating by faeries almost every time and I see MBC and MUC beating me each time as well. Zoo will also be a much tougher match up with the infect list as troll shroud is nonexistent. I do run vines of vastwood main deck (2 of) and it has helped, but I feel it isn't enough. What I need is an infect noble hierarch!

My list is as follows:

Lands:
9 Forest
8 Fetch

Enchantments:
3 Sylvan Library
4 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor

Creatures:
4 Necropeede
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Blight Mamba
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Instants:
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
2 Vines of Vastwood

Sideboard:
3 Autumn's Veil
4 Faerie Macabra
2 Relic (Cantrip)
2 Vines of Vastwood
1 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim

I don't run shusher, because I generally want to win way before they get the counterbalance online.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

A couple things, fetchlands in monogreen are only worth it if you run Sylvan Library and hardly anyone does in Berserk. Also, about the new dual lands in SOM, they could mean you don't get to use Invigorate for its alternate casting cost as they are not forests. Granted, you should have a forest as your other land, but sometimes you get screwed. That kills it.

[Tru3z3rox]

A couple things, fetchlands in monogreen are only worth it if you run Sylvan Library and hardly anyone does in Berserk. Also, the new dual lands in SOM, they could mean you don't get to use Invigorate for its alternate casting cost as they are not forests. That kills it.

My list runs it and I'm glad I do. Sylvan helps me dig very deep for the cards I need and considering there are only 12 infect creatures in the deck..it is more necessary. It is almost always a must counter for the opponent.

[ajfirecracker]

Groundswell is probably better than Vines of Vastwood for Berserk Stompy. Discuss.

[Masamune]

Groundswell is probably better than Vines of Vastwood for Berserk Stompy. Discuss.

It's two different things....normally the combo works togheter with berserk. VoV is better against removals and MoK is slight better than groundswell. There is a moment we cannot have any land to play in right way to give another +2

[Gui]

Groundswell is probably better than Vines of Vastwood for Berserk Stompy. Discuss.

That, ofc, depends. For monogreen, running 15 to 16 forests, VoV is way better... Also, VoV's strength lies in instant trollshroud...

But a stompy built around landfall could use it better...

[LordEvilTeaCup]

My list runs it and I'm glad I do. Sylvan helps me dig very deep for the cards I need and considering there are only 12 infect creatures in the deck..it is more necessary. It is almost always a must counter for the opponent.

In a monogreen infect deck Sylvan library indeed seems more vital, but I personally think monogreen infect is not as good as regular monogreen berserk stompy. Your list looks like an interesting start, but like you said yourself way too vulnerable and the infect creature count is very low even with sylvan library which is only a 3 of. Right now infect only works as a deck with some black, but that could change if there is more monogreen infect dudes printed in the later sets.

[Tru3z3rox]

In a monogreen infect deck Sylvan library indeed seems more vital, but I personally think monogreen infect is not as good as regular monogreen berserk stompy. Your list looks like an interesting start, but like you said yourself way too vulnerable and the infect creature count is very low even with sylvan library which is only a 3 of. Right now infect only works as a deck with some black, but that could change if there is more monogreen infect dudes printed in the later sets.

I agree. As I've stated before I'd jump for joy if they give us a troll shrouded infect dude. That would literally make the deck.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I agree. As I've stated before I'd jump for joy if they give us a troll shrouded infect dude. That would literally make the deck.

I think we would all jump for joy if that happened. Only time will tell.

[NihilObstat]

So, how has the testing with G/R gone? The Assault Storbe + Fiend deck? My testings haven't been too good... anyone has different results?

[Tru3z3rox]

So, how has the testing with G/R gone? The Assault Storbe + Fiend deck? My testings haven't been too good... anyone has different results?

I tried a few games with it and didn't like it. I was always either waiting for red mana with red cards in hand or had red mana with no assault strobe in hand. I prefered the mono g version, but at the moment I'm testing infect pump. It is a lot faster (usually a turn 2-3 win), but is much more vulnerable to removal. I think if we went infect pump we'd need to run more VoV.

[NihilObstat]

I At the moment I'm testing infect pump. It is a lot faster (usually a turn 2-3 win), but is much more vulnerable to removal. I think if we went infect pump we'd need to run more VoV.

I think that Infect needs 4x VoV, and maybe consider http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74515, or http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193970.

[Tru3z3rox]

I think that Infect needs 4x VoV, and maybe consider http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74515, or http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193970.

I agree with the first statement, but not with the next. Those 2 cards are very subpar. 4 VoV could do it for now until an infect troll shrouder comes along.

[Gui]

Anyone trying to add Infect creatures to the current version, without basing the deck around infect? Then we'd use mamba or myr as final blow creatures only...

[NecroYawgmoth]

I'd use myr...


...but can you really say "Final Blow"????

That would be a bad final blow, IMO

I mean... you need to deal 10 damage in 1 blow, without having Trollshroud...


I think that Infect needs 4x VoV, and maybe consider http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74515, or http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193970.

or maybe Avoid Fate ;)

[Tru3z3rox]

Vines is still simply better. I goldfish turn 2-3 with this deck (with a decent hand). I run 3 VoV though which helps a lot. Perhaps I'll up it to 4. I just tried testing against countertop...haha boy was that difficult. I went 1-2 against it. Considering everything in the deck costs 1-2 I'd say it is one of our worst match ups.

[NecroYawgmoth]

of course is VoV better...

I meant in addition, if we want more to protect our critters

[Gui]

I've been testing Tru3z3rox's suggestion, Sylvan Library, and it's really good so far...

I suggest everyone trying it out.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I've been testing Tru3z3rox's suggestion, Sylvan Library, and it's really good so far...

I suggest everyone trying it out.

Got a list? What did you take out for it?

[Gui]

Got a list? What did you take out for it?

Got like 3 lists in test, and like other 3 in mind, all monogreen :P
Neither are Infect Stompies, since I don't think it's viable right now, with only a few possible critters

This is the first mod I did, to fit Sylvan:

// Lands
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk

// Spells
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
3 Vines of Vastwood
2 Krosan Grip
3 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Rushwood Legate




And this is a list with both ESG and Sylvan Library, currently testing:

// Lands
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
3 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 2 Rushwood Legate
SB: 2 Seeds of Innocence



Sideboards are just ideas, but are more or less balanced

[Tru3z3rox]

Glad you guys are liking Sylvan. I'm currently testing the infect stompy list. Like it a lot and with VoV I've some resilience to removal. I'm thinking it is way faster than the traditional stompy...

[LordEvilTeaCup]

The Sylvan build looks a little weird, but maybe it could work out. I am very curious to see how it panes out.

[Gui]

The Sylvan build looks a little weird, but maybe it could work out. I am very curious to see how it panes out.

What do you mean by wierd?

Well, explaining, Sylvan speeds up your combo whenever you activate it, by either getting you to fix your draw or by drawing you some useless cards so that you can find new useful ones... I just added Sylvan to my list by removing some creatures/pumps, and my list used to run Gleeful/Krosan, so it stayed there, feel free to remove.

With a creature T1 and a Sylvan T2, you got 11 cards to find a zerk + pumps for the combo, increasing your combo chances. Also, it can get you the 3rd land, if you got those mook+mook+zerk we love, but miss a forest.

When you are running out of gas, and opponent is still playing defensive, a Sylvan could turn the game by getting you more fuel to burn.

The situation in which sylvan is worse would be when you got few or no creatures, or when you wanted more creatures in the beginning instead of something that will get you more creatures in the middle of the game. OR when you got sylvan, and if it was a VoV/Seal you would win...

[Masamune]

Ok, I agrree if you guys. Run Sylvan make a difference but the cc is 2. Many times I did beat and play smooth with just a single forest with a hand like this: 2 invigorate, boggle, elite, nettle. The differece is happen IMO when we can run ESG thinking about play Sylvan next with no delay, or will we have problems. Is terrible take a mull when the luck is against us when appear a single forest, silhana, inv., zerk and two Sylvans :(

Sylvan is nice, but ESG must to appear to improve our combo :D

[Masamune]

By the way, is Scryb Ranger slight better than Rushwood Legate? I prefer run Scryb in SB

[LordEvilTeaCup]

What do you mean by wierd?

Well, explaining, Sylvan speeds up your combo whenever you activate it, by either getting you to fix your draw or by drawing you some useless cards so that you can find new useful ones... I just added Sylvan to my list by removing some creatures/pumps, and my list used to run Gleeful/Krosan, so it stayed there, feel free to remove.

With a creature T1 and a Sylvan T2, you got 11 cards to find a zerk + pumps for the combo, increasing your combo chances. Also, it can get you the 3rd land, if you got those mook+mook+zerk we love, but miss a forest.

When you are running out of gas, and opponent is still playing defensive, a Sylvan could turn the game by getting you more fuel to burn.

The situation in which sylvan is worse would be when you got few or no creatures, or when you wanted more creatures in the beginning instead of something that will get you more creatures in the middle of the game. OR when you got sylvan, and if it was a VoV/Seal you would win...

Weird might not be the word, but it just seems off to run 3 of a 2cc CA engine that is not a beater and throw in fetchlands just to accommodate it. It could be the right thing to do, but it's just a very different approach than what I am used too. I can see it can add consistency (how much though as a 3 of?) and the tempo you lose from playing it you can possibly get back by helping you draw the nuts and can give you more gas the NEXT turn. And back to the fetchlands, is this card worth opening yourself up to stifle? I admit I just don't get it lol, and maybe I will do some playtesting later to wrap my head around it. It's got me thinking.

[Tru3z3rox]

Ok, I agrree if you guys. Run Sylvan make a difference but the cc is 2. Many times I did beat and play smooth with just a single forest with a hand like this: 2 invigorate, boggle, elite, nettle. The differece is happen IMO when we can run ESG thinking about play Sylvan next with no delay, or will we have problems. Is terrible take a mull when the luck is against us when appear a single forest, silhana, inv., zerk and two Sylvans :(

Sylvan is nice, but ESG must to appear to improve our combo :D

The point is Sylvan turn 1 with esg and fetches to makes sure crap stays off of the top of the library.

[Tru3z3rox]

Weird might not be the word, but it just seems off to run 3 of a 2cc CA engine that is not a beater and throw in fetchlands just to accommodate it. It could be the right thing to do, but it's just a very different approach than what I am used too. I can see it can add consistency (how much though as a 3 of?) and the tempo you lose from playing it you can possibly get back by helping you draw the nuts and can give you more gas the NEXT turn. And back to the fetchlands, is this card worth opening yourself up to stifle? I admit I just don't get it lol, and maybe I will do some playtesting later to wrap my head around it. It's got me thinking.

Most decks honestly play stifle to combo with themselves in some way (Dreadstill etc). I know, because I used to play merfolk and dropped stifle long ago as a control aspect. It is sometimes a tempo loss for those decks. I'm not worried about my land being stifled as that will probably happen 1 out of 10 games against blue decks. We're a combo deck. Fetches thin our library and sylvan fixes our draws as well as getting more gas each turn. When you're playing against control decks or disruptive decks that is VERY relevant.

You don't know how many times discard destroyed my hand and I just refilled it with sylvan when I went for the kill.

[Gui]

Weird might not be the word, but it just seems off to run 3 of a 2cc CA engine that is not a beater and throw in fetchlands just to accommodate it. It could be the right thing to do, but it's just a very different approach than what I am used too. I can see it can add consistency (how much though as a 3 of?) and the tempo you lose from playing it you can possibly get back by helping you draw the nuts and can give you more gas the NEXT turn. And back to the fetchlands, is this card worth opening yourself up to stifle? I admit I just don't get it lol, and maybe I will do some playtesting later to wrap my head around it. It's got me thinking.

Ok, now I got your point. ^^

I don't think we should run 4-of Sylvan Library. Even Zoo run only 2-of it... So far, 3 is ok, I didn't draw 2 at the same hand yet, but that would be pretty bad, I agree.

On the fetchlands, I'm reaching the conclusion that they are not needed, but I will still test them a little. I didn't even have the chance to use them to shuffle my Library because of bad draws yet... Actually, our library is so full of the same kind of solutions that, whenever I activate Library, it's not uncommon to find the piece I needed.

The consistancy it adds is something close to what I said about red splash being better than monogreen due to Assault Strobe: We depend too much on the "final blow", the moment we are able to attack with all our power, and sometimes we just don't find enough power and stall. We lose the game due to the lack of 2-3 points of damage, and get controlled. Library digs that damage before it's too late for us; before the game is controled by them. Even played at turn 3, as in these situations where you need the last forest to play the recently drawn Berserk.

It's not uncommon for us to be laying around with 20 life while trying to figure out a way to deal a few more points of damage to finish the game.

Some testings shows that we are rarelly able to finish opponent at turn 3 (10% +/-), we can finish them at turn 4 something like 40% of the games, and 30% at turn 5. A library @T2 can dig you to 5th draw within the next turn. And if you got enough life, it can dig you to the 8th draw within T4.

Well, It may not be the bomb we always needed, but at least is worth a try, I assure.

Oh, and btw, it helps a lot against Chalice @1 ^^

edit: God, that's a bigger answer than I thought... I should stop being so extensive xD

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Ok, now I got your point. ^^

I don't think we should run 4-of Sylvan Library. Even Zoo run only 2-of it... So far, 3 is ok, I didn't draw 2 at the same hand yet, but that would be pretty bad, I agree.

On the fetchlands, I'm reaching the conclusion that they are not needed, but I will still test them a little. I didn't even have the chance to use them to shuffle my Library because of bad draws yet... Actually, our library is so full of the same kind of solutions that, whenever I activate Library, it's not uncommon to find the piece I needed.

The consistancy it adds is something close to what I said about red splash being better than monogreen due to Assault Strobe: We depend too much on the "final blow", the moment we are able to attack with all our power, and sometimes we just don't find enough power and stall. We lose the game due to the lack of 2-3 points of damage, and get controlled. Library digs that damage before it's too late for us; before the game is controled by them. Even played at turn 3, as in these situations where you need the last forest to play the recently drawn Berserk.

It's not uncommon for us to be laying around with 20 life while trying to figure out a way to deal a few more points of damage to finish the game.

Some testings shows that we are rarelly able to finish opponent at turn 3 (10% +/-), we can finish them at turn 4 something like 40% of the games, and 30% at turn 5. A library @T2 can dig you to 5th draw within the next turn. And if you got enough life, it can dig you to the 8th draw within T4.

Well, It may not be the bomb we always needed, but at least is worth a try, I assure.

Oh, and btw, it helps a lot against Chalice @1 ^^

edit: God, that's a bigger answer than I thought... I should stop being so extensive xD

Ha ha well this is a strong defense. I am worried about Library whiffing when it could have been a pump spell to end it, but that is unlikely. Also I don't particularly like this card against Zoo, because the races can be really tight. I could see it as a boon against a variety of other decks however. Ok let's see how it turns out. My money is still on the red splash though :P

[Gui]

Ha ha well this is a strong defense. I am worried about Library whiffing when it could have been a pump spell to end it, but that is unlikely. Also I don't particularly like this card against Zoo, because the races can be really tight. I could see it as a boon against a variety of other decks however. Ok let's see how it turns out. My money is still on the red splash though :P

Even better, then: Test it at the red splash and let us know ^^

[Tru3z3rox]

I'm glad to see this forum active and people testing a variety of versions. How much pump is everyone running?

@Sylvan
Yes it is fine as a 3 of. I'd never go to 4 and I don't see the reason of going to 2 as I'd like to see it early if I can.

@Fetchlands
It is true that they shuffle your library for the turn after you need it, but I find the thinning of the deck worth the few points of damage, so I can library only into business spells.

Another option is mirri's guile. That lets us cheat and look before we draw so if it is all crap then we can simply shuffle it away and start fresh (all before the draw). Granted it doesn't provide the raw CA.

Note**
I'm still testing infect pump and like it a lot. I can usually win by turn 3 (about 45-55%), but I've been forced up to 3-4 VoV due to removal. Anyone had more testing against zoo? I've tested against zoo, cb, doomsday, first strike white weenie, NO elves, lands, dreadstill, etc. I've had much success against all of those decks except obviously cb. Considering all of our spells are 1-2 a cb lock is almost unwinnable.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Even better, then: Test it at the red splash and let us know ^^

Lol maybe when I get some more free time.

@Tru: If you go into black, you can get more creatures and discard. Without black, don't you feel vulnerable with only VoV to protect your dudes?

[Tru3z3rox]

Lol maybe when I get some more free time.

@Tru: If you go into black, you can get more creatures and discard. Without black, don't you feel vulnerable with only VoV to protect your dudes?

I do, but I find the merits of black to not be worth it. The only card I'd want to run is the flier and he is just as vulnerable as the others.

And discard slows me down too much for my liking.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I do, but I find the merits of black to not be worth it. The only card I'd want to run is the flier and he is just as vulnerable as the others.

And discard slows me down too much for my liking.

Even so, I have a hard time getting behind an infect build without some form of protection besides VOV. Here is a crazy idea...blue splash!!! Heh.

[Tru3z3rox]

I took my infect list to a local tourney and went 3-1. MVPS were sylvan and vines. 4 Vines mainboard is a must I feel now for an infect list. Not so much for the traditional. My 1 loss was to painter/grindstone.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I took my infect list to a local tourney and went 3-1. MVPS were sylvan and vines. 4 Vines mainboard is a must I feel now for an infect list. Not so much for the traditional. My 1 loss was to painter/grindstone.

Congrats :)

[Gui]

I've been testing Sylvan Library maindeck, as 3-of and now as 2-of. My conclusion is that it's rarely a dead card, its draw fix is ok, its draw for 4life is amazing for us, specially if dropped second turn, to try a thrid turn kill, or to clean the top with -8life so that you go off 4th turn.

The main problem is that, sometimes, not often really, you draw the second Sylvan, and the objective of having card advantage is null, unless you spend 8 life.
So what I'm doing is reducing the count to 2-of, and using the slot for pumps instead. Also, that reduces the small chance there is to draw an Sylvan when all you needed for the win was a pump (this is not always bad, since sometimes it will end up fetching the pump). I think runnig 2-of is great, the benefits of a well-timed Sylvan can bring you the match, while 3-of is kind of risky, for the fact that it could lose the match instead.

[Masamune]

I don't know... Sylvan against zoo is terrible... Qsali can disrupt it and the stomp can crush us. Dmg togheter when u try kill faster too drawing another with Sylvan trigg in draw phase

[Gui]

I don't know... Sylvan against zoo is terrible... Qsali can disrupt it and the stomp can crush us. Dmg togheter when u try kill faster too drawing another with Sylvan trigg in draw phase

I see your point. It's true, the draw for 4life ability isn't to be abuse dagainst Zoo. But there's also the fact that Berserk usually means Kill against Zoo, and Sylvan may help you find it before it's too late.

[Raviv]

hey guys. i have to say that this is a really cool thread!

here is my current list:

7 x Forest
3 x Taiga
4 x Windswept Heath
3 x Misty Rainforest

4 x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 x Slippery Bogle
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Kavu Predator
4 x Silhana Ledgewalker

4 x Rancor
4 x Assault Strobe
4 x Might of Old Krosa
4 x Invigorate
4 x Berserk
1 x Vines of Vastwood

2 x Sylvan Library

SB:
2 x Krosan Grip
2 x Gleeful Sabotage
2 x Arc Trail
2 x Ravenous Trap
3 x Tormod's Crypt
4 x Autumn's Veil

first i got to say that imho the combo nature of this deck is what is making it really dangerous. the simple beatdown plan is just way outdated and predictable most of the time. my next thoughts rely on this assumption.

imho the red splash with 4 assault strobes is really the way to go atm. with 20 evasion (counting trample as evasion, too) effects/critters, it's just like having the hardly needed berserks no. 5,6,7 and 8. the only real disadvantage compared to berserk is that it does not stack with itself. sorcery speed is just fine (think about MoOK). my first tests with this card were awsome.

furthermore i think that's there is no red creature really fitting in this deck. dropping taiga first turn for kird ape has been discussed already and kiln fiend does not have any evasion or troll shroud and is not undercosted by itself (like nettle). it's simply a card that should be used with burn and not with berserk.

the sideboard: arc trail is completely new here. maybe it can be used against tribal trading 1 for 2. it even can get the first lord and a toughness 1 critter like cursecatcher or lackey, to name two really dangerous examples. it slows the opponent down and clears the board a bit, leaving more room to push through a few more points of damage to get the opponent into zerk range. but i have not tested it yet.

to come to an end i want to say that i hardly prefer Autumn's Veil over shusher. it's faster and we want to be fast. it's more unpredictable for the opponent. it can not be sworded etc.. if you want to take a real advantage of using the shusher, you need much more mana than this deck can provide. veil is nearly as good for us as chant is for storm combo.

so far ... and greetings from germany and sorry for m english, i hope it is not that bad :)


edit: I also got to say that the library kicks ass so far. nice work ;)

[KBH]

I don't know if Assault Strobe is the answer, but it sure sounds like a great idea to try out


i hope it is not that bad

Your English is great, only minor thing I noticed was that the word "hardly" has a strange usage where it actually means "barely" rather than "greatly"

[Gui]

I like your take on the deck, although I'm aware that the chance of drawing 2 of the same, when running 4-of it, after 10 draws (approx. 3rd turn) is something around 13%, while if you were running 3-of, that would be like 6%. I wonder if you ever drawn 2x strobe and had problems due to that. I'm aware strobe doesn't kill your creature, so that you can use it later, but your backup pumps will have to be cast only once.

Also, about Shusher, consider that we use him against Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top, both of which Autumn's Veil doesn't work, though you can counter these strategy with k-grips + gleeful.

[Demonic_Attorney]

Does anybody know of this deck making a top 8 at any major Legcy Event?

Or does anybody know if this deck was played at either Grand Prix Madrid or Gand Prix Columbus and where it finished at its highest point in the standings?

[NihilObstat]

Does anybody know of this deck making a top 8 at any major Legcy Event?

Or does anybody know if this deck was played at either Grand Prix Madrid or Gand Prix Columbus and where it finished at its highest point in the standings?

Hi! Before deckcheck closed, you could see it's section on Berserk Stompy, and it had something like 5 tournaments of over 50 people placing top 3, and other events of over 30 also with nice standing. Most of those build were 2 colors, or even 3, with GRW, but the best place this deck had was the actual first time it was played by César Fernández in PT Valencia, a couple years ago, where it won a 250 people side-event.

The deck was played in GP Madrid for sure. First of all, because I played it, and secondly because I saw some others around. I don't know it's best position, but I think none made 2nd day, although I'm not sure, but all the ones I saw went at least into a tie or even, saying 4 loses, 4 victories, as I did, in my first big event, also saying that I would have had better results, for sure, if I had been calm.

[Magic-Style]

What do you think about this deck list.

2 forest
3 savannah
2 taiga
1 plateau
4 G/W fetch
4 R/G Fetch

4 Noble hierarch
4 ESG

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu predator
4 Pridemage qasali
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
3 VoV
4 STP
1 Fling

SB :
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Gaddock teeg
3 Nature's claim
3 Seeds of innocence
2 Umezawa's jitte

[Tru3z3rox]

What do you think about this deck list.

2 forest
3 savannah
2 taiga
1 plateau
4 G/W fetch
4 R/G Fetch

4 Noble hierarch
4 ESG

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu predator
4 Pridemage qasali
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
3 VoV
4 STP
1 Fling

SB :
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Gaddock teeg
3 Nature's claim
3 Seeds of innocence
2 Umezawa's jitte

I don't really like it. Your creatures have no inherent protection or evasion other than predator. In this case you may as well run poison stompy..its a faster win. Also if you're actually splashing red you should run assault strobe. Perhaps as a 2-3 of?

[HelloHero]

What would a Poison Stompy build look like?

[Gui]

What would a Poison Stompy build look like?

There's a thread for it at the "New & Develop" forums, the name is Infect Pump, I believe


Being testing some numbers on monogreen berserk stompy, I believe 24 pumps (or 22 + 2 sylvan) is the least amount we should use. Also, got some math done to check whether to use 3 sylvan or two, and switching the third for a pump results into better chances of getting more pumps earlier. Although this is not the only reason to use Sylvan, I believe it's the main reason (or at least my main reason). Best would be finding a way to run 23 pumps + 2 sylvan, although that reduces creature/land slots a little. I'm trying a 16 Forest, 19 Creatures, 23 Pumps, 2 Sylvan build now.

Also, checking 15, 16 and 17 land builds, the chance to cast a 3cc spell post-board prior turn 5 is pretty bad (a little better with 17, but not much), and considering the chance to draw them too, I decided to cut every 3cc spell I got at my sideboard. Currently using 4-of Gleeful Sabotage instead of Krosan, and also no Seeds of Inocence.

[Pltnmngl]

There's a thread for it at the "New & Develop" forums, the name is Infect Pump, I believe


Being testing some numbers on monogreen berserk stompy, I believe 24 pumps (or 22 + 2 sylvan) is the least amount we should use. Also, got some math done to check whether to use 3 sylvan or two, and switching the third for a pump results into better chances of getting more pumps earlier. Although this is not the main reason to use Sylvan, I believe it's the main reason (or at least my main reason). Best would be finding a way to run 23 pumps + 2 sylvan, although that reduces creature/land slots a little. I'm trying a 16 Forest, 19 Creatures, 23 Pumps, 2 Sylvan build now.

Also, checking 15, 16 and 17 land builds, the chance to cast a 3cc spell post-board prior turn 5 is pretty bad (a little better with 17, but not much), and considering the chance to draw them too, I decided to cut every 3cc spell I got at my sideboard. Currently using 4-of Gleeful Sabotage instead of Krosan, and also no Seeds of Inocence.

So what's your sideboard looking like now?

[Gui]

So what's your sideboard looking like now?

That highly depends, but so far, the fixed slots are 4x Tormod's and 4x Gleeful
I want to test Vexing Shusher and Rushwood Legate to see which to add there, but so far, Shusher...
The other 3 are metacall... with the amount of vengevines there is, I'd recomend Pithing Needle

This is what I'm testing right now (inf+1 pumps):

//Lands
16 Forest

//Creatures
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Skarrgan Pit-skulk

//Spells
2 Sylvan Library
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Seal of Strength

[NecroYawgmoth]

3 cards different from my main, because I don't like library, and I only play 2 Seals...

I think you play a little too much pump... it should be equal to the creatures, or more creatures, IMO

Sideboard is 4 Shusher, 4 Tormod's, 3 Gleeful set, IMO... ->the other 4 are meta-slots

well... nearly the same thoughts like Gui [oh wonder oh wonder :cool::tongue:]

[Gui]

3 cards different from my main, because I don't like library, and I only play 2 Seals...

I think you play a little too much pump... it should be equal to the creatures, or more creatures, IMO

Sideboard is 4 Shusher, 4 Tormod's, 3 Gleeful set, IMO... ->the other 4 are meta-slots

well... nearly the same thoughts like Gui [oh wonder oh wonder :cool::tongue:]

Well, I'm mainly giving up the aggro role a bit to try to combine the pumps better... The odds for a 4-pump hand after three draws* rises a lot in this configuration, in which I use 23 pumps + 2 Sylvan; 22+2 is also decent, slightly better than 24 pure pumps. But I like Sylvan, also because it gives you choices, which means it rewards good moves too. ^^

19 creatures is enough to have 2 creatures every starter hand for ~72% of the time, opposed to ~75% with 20. (these are greater than 90% after 3 draws, with ~70% of getting 3 or more creatures) I'm already running under a base where I prefer to combo instead of swarming, since it is currently a better route against a lot of matchups.

23 pumps + 2 sylvan is experimental yet, 22+2 (or 24 pumps, if you prefer it over sylvan) works fine, way better than 20 pumps lists (no sylvan) I tryed for long, relying on aggro and combo-finisher. These aggroish builds are better against Threshold-like decks (Tempo/Aggro-control Blue decks), but we also got strong sideboard against them, in Vexing Shusher and Rushwood Legate to increase Creature count against controls/blue, where swarms are better than pumps.

And well, Yawg, your list was taken as base for this one, so... xD


* from testing, 4 pumps increases a lot the chance to win if you are able to connect them and the attack.
also, turn 4 and on is where they start to stall us and we fail to reach enough gas

[Tru3z3rox]

I'm glad you guys are warming up to Sylvan Library. :D

Now I'm waiting for the lists running fetches for thinning and fixing sylvan draws as well.

I'm only running 4-5 fetches in the deck now with a total of 17 land. So far I've been liking it.

My friend took my infect stompy list to a tournament and went 2-3 before dropping, but 2 of those match losses were due to play mistakes. He was new to the deck and wanted to test it out.

[Gui]

I'm glad you guys are warming up to Sylvan Library. :D

Now I'm waiting for the lists running fetches for thinning and fixing sylvan draws as well.

I'm only running 4-5 fetches in the deck now with a total of 17 land. So far I've been liking it.

My friend took my infect stompy list to a tournament and went 2-3 before dropping, but 2 of those match losses were due to play mistakes. He was new to the deck and wanted to test it out.

Sylvan is really good as 2-of. I don't recomend 3-of for the reasons posted on previous post. (better chances)

Well, I let the Fetchland advocade role for you. I won't run them to thin the deck right now because I didn't find it useful, We want to finish the game before it turns controlish, when the difference becomes perceptible. Fixing sylvan's top is also hard to happen, since we usually just wanna play the land and tap ASAP... So, my conclusion is that fetchlands don't help that much (sometime even drawing into more lands), are suceptible to moon effects and stifle, and those -1 lifes could make the difference when drawing via Sylvan. I got few stuff to test before checking the difference between straigh-forest and fetchs+forests builds, since I think this hardly would be gamebreaker. I'd run them if I was playing goyf or some landfall effect tho, or splash, ofc.

17 lands is a good amount, I wish I had room for a extra land at that build over there. But 16 isn't bad too. 15 seems too little sometimes, mulligans and screws.

[Tru3z3rox]

Sylvan is really good as 2-of. I don't recomend 3-of for the reasons posted on previous post. (better chances)

Well, I let the Fetchland advocade role for you. I won't run them to thin the deck right now because I didn't find it useful, We want to finish the game before it turns controlish, when the difference becomes perceptible. Fixing sylvan's top is also hard to happen, since we usually just wanna play the land and tap ASAP... So, my conclusion is that fetchlands don't help that much (sometime even drawing into more lands), are suceptible to moon effects and stifle, and those -1 lifes could make the difference when drawing via Sylvan. I got few stuff to test before checking the difference between straigh-forest and fetchs+forests builds, since I think this hardly would be gamebreaker. I'd run them if I was playing goyf or some landfall effect tho, or splash, ofc.

17 lands is a good amount, I wish I had room for a extra land at that build over there. But 16 isn't bad too. 15 seems too little sometimes, mulligans and screws.

Ya the difference is negligable, but I like it because it gives me MORE chance to have a good turn 2/3 draw. As a combo deck I'm not TOO worried about the -1 life that comes with fetches.

If you're running 15-16 lands I would HIGHLY recommend running Noble Hierarchs. She is awesome in the beatdown role and gives mana. Exalted + Berserk/Assault strobe is good I think.

[Gui]

Ya the difference is negligable, but I like it because it gives me MORE chance to have a good turn 2/3 draw. As a combo deck I'm not TOO worried about the -1 life that comes with fetches.

If you're running 15-16 lands I would HIGHLY recommend running Noble Hierarchs. She is awesome in the beatdown role and gives mana. Exalted + Berserk/Assault strobe is good I think.

Hierarch can be used, just be sure not to remove too much attack dedicated creatures, and try to keep at least 20-22 pumps, since ~45% of the time you will still need to chain 4 pumps or stack some early damage to reach 20 dmg, although on the other ~55% you'll have 2x berserk or berserk+strobe (considering turn 3 to 5 and 4 Zerk + 3 Strobe (Raviv told me, from testings, he droped the 4th strobe since they don't stack))

Also, I wouldn't recomend anyone to use less than 17 lands on R Splashed versions. I believe Raviv's take on this is the correct one, Splashing with 3 Taigas and several fetches, and using only strobe, so that you can fetch only Forest until the moment you need the Taiga.

Unsplashed versions can run under 16 Forest without hierarch with no much problem, although I'd rather run 17 to have more consistancy against LDs, Trinisphere and stuff like that. As you said, a combo deck is not worried about 1 life, but I'm currently worried about Stifles, since both BUG Canadian and UG Madness/Vengevine uses it to slow you down ( and few other decks too)... And I went down to 1-3 life a few times with Sylvan already, which means if I had fetches, I could be unable to do that (Although I would have 1% better chances on drawing what I wanted). For unsplashed version, I'd rather go Fetch-less (most monocolor decks does that for some reason).

[Raviv]

playing the 7th fetchland instead of the 4th taiga is also a meta choice.
since most of the merfolk players dropped stifle to play coralhelm commander and ug surival madness is not that popular in the german meta game, stifle does not find it's way in many deck lists anymore. furthermoremerfolk is very popular atm and merfolk still plays wastelands and therefore i fear wasteland much more than stifle.

i have got to say. that with the recent addition of sylvan and strobe, the deck seems to perform much more constant than the mono green version :D (and i played the mono green version a lot before the print of strobe).

i changed my sideboard a bit:

4 tormod's crypt
3 rushwood legate
3 pyrostatic pillar
2 gleeful sabotage
2 krosan grip
1 vines of vastwood

i'm playing one vov main deck. the pillar could be used against combo and i think it's harder to handle than mindbreak trap. i dropped my specific counter hate to play rushwood legate, too. nowadays almost all blue decks only play daze and fow as counters.

[Tano]

hi Guys,

i like the berserk stompy deck - types very much and i played and tested several builds. My results are the following: I like most the mono green build, because of its consistency. I dont like the builds with fetches and duals, because of getting wasted or stifled. Furthermore i dont like to run 2 sylvan libaries, because thats too random for me to draw any of them in the first 3 rounds. So if i want to play and draw the sylvan libary, i have to put 3 or 4 of them into a deck, but thats shittie too because my chance to draw multiple sylvan libaries is too high then. So the only way for me to play the multiple silvan libaries is to fit a 9 or 10 land berserk stompy deck with them, because if you draw the second or third libary u are able to pitch them into bounty of the hunt or vine dryads and a shuffle effect for the silvan libary is given by land grants.

[Gui]

It depends on what is your reason to use Sylvan. I use it to fetch more pumps until 4th turn, and for that purpose I calculated that 2 Sylvan is better than 3 or no Sylvan, for 22, 23, 24 and 25 pump-dedicated slots. That's why I use 2.

I don't think that the deck is NOT Sylvan dependant, so I don't care if I don't draw it, as long as it increases my chances whenever I do.

Not using Sylvan got its advantages too: were it a pump, you wouldn't need to cast it at ASAP to take advantage. That's up to you.

And for the record: Avoid Land Grant.

[Masamune]

hi Guys,

i like the berserk stompy deck - types very much and i played and tested several builds. My results are the following: I like most the mono green build, because of its consistency. I dont like the builds with fetches and duals, because of getting wasted or stifled. Furthermore i dont like to run 2 sylvan libaries, because thats too random for me to draw any of them in the first 3 rounds. So if i want to play and draw the sylvan libary, i have to put 3 or 4 of them into a deck, but thats shittie too because my chance to draw multiple sylvan libaries is too high then. So the only way for me to play the multiple silvan libaries is to fit a 9 or 10 land berserk stompy deck with them, because if you draw the second or third libary u are able to pitch them into bounty of the hunt or vine dryads and a shuffle effect for the silvan libary is given by land grants.

Well...I agree
Maybe our choice is based in meta although ten land stompy or BS have the same combo idea

@Editing....

Gui_Brasil....yes....I forgot... Land Grant is not a good idea for us :( I hate show my hand when my Berserk combo is there ready to win

[Tano]

Hi guys, its not that bad to play 4 land grant in a 10 land green ( aka berserk stompy) build because your opponent has to do anyway what needs to be done. I mean if you show him your cards (land grants pitching cost), then what happens?? He looks at your berserk or other pump and he knows: i have to counter that berserk! or: ihave to sword that guy, if he plays the berserk! Nothing would be different, if he didnt know what you are keeping in your hand, and you would try to berserk your guy on the battlefield.... your opponent would counter that spell or would try to kill your critter or things like that.
And if you would have a starting hand without a forest and only one land grant, your should better take a mulligan anyway, instead of playing and hoping that your opponent doesnt counter it.
Anyway, i dont like to play only 2 sylvan libaries , thats tooo random imho. Never seen that card as a two off in many games and when you see that card in turn 4 or 5 , you have lost that game anyway ^^.
Dont get me wrong, a ten land build is not my favourite, but i like a monogreen build most.

[Masamune]

Hi guys, its not that bad to play 4 land grant in a 10 land green ( aka berserk stompy) build because your opponent has to do anyway what needs to be done. I mean if you show him your cards (land grants pitching cost), then what happens?? He looks at your berserk or other pump and he knows: i have to counter that berserk! or: ihave to sword that guy, if he plays the berserk! Nothing would be different, if he didnt know what you are keeping in your hand, and you would try to berserk your guy on the battlefield.... your opponent would counter that spell or would try to kill your critter or things like that.
And if you would have a starting hand without a forest and only one land grant, your should better take a mulligan anyway, instead of playing and hoping that your opponent doesnt counter it.
Anyway, i dont like to play only 2 sylvan libaries , thats tooo random imho. Never seen that card as a two off in many games and when you see that card in turn 4 or 5 , you have lost that game anyway ^^.
Dont get me wrong, a ten land build is not my favourite, but i like a monogreen build most.

A hint: show your hand to opp isn't good... Many people thought I was playing with Elfball when I started > forest > Nettle. And more: the worst thing that can happen is screw us with counters and then we did not find any other available land...

[Tano]

A hint: show your hand to opp isn't good...

I agree in that point :cool: , but to show your opponent a very fast killing hand changes most of the time no game situation ( thats my experience of playing ten land super fast aggro with land grant in it)... but i agree "good" is something different:tongue:

So now lets try a fast aggro build with sylvan libary in it:


9 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 ESG
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Skarrgan Pit Skulks
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker

4 Land Grant
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Rancor
3 Bounty of the hunt
3 Sylvan Libary

Not too random now... very fast speed and very aggro and of course at least 3 copies of sylvan libary. Go and try this deck :rolleyes:

[paeng4983]

aggressive?
im currently working with this build:

12 forest
4 G fetch

1 arbor
4 ESG
4 noble
4 kavu
3 skyshroud cutter
1 progenitus
3 tarmogoyf

4 Nat. Order

2 S. library
2 w.tutor

4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 might of old krosa
4 vines of vastwood

:)

what do you think of this build?
as i was building this deck, i thought
of using 3 win-con. and i came up with
these
NO-prog
kavu and friends with VoV as its protector
and beat down tarmo with Vov as its protector.

your thoughts guys.
thanks

[Gui]

...
:eek:
Be sure to keep us up-to-date with your results and matchs
Quirion is probably a bad idea without a mana generating elf there, and it will be uncommon for you to have Land Grants to pitch for BotH, since you'll have only one of these 14 lands 40% of the games. Also black decks can Duress/Kozilek/Thoughtseize your land grant, and blue decks can FoW/Daze/Snare/Spike/Pierce it, which makes you 86% chance on having at least one land drop down to 74% of reliable chance to have a land at starter hand against any deck using blue/black, opposed to the 98% a 16 Forest-only list got at any match.

As I said, 2 Sylvan got better % chances than 3 in having more pumps at early-mid game (switching the 3rd SL for a pump).
Actually, not running Sylvan got better chances than 3 Sylvan too.




...
Seriously? NO-prog? :eyebrow:
I'm curious to know your results with it.
I think that maybe this is a new deck, maybe post it under New and Development?

[paeng4983]

hello gui, im not fun of creating a new thread just because i placed/used NO-prog with berserk stumpy.
i'm just thinking of another way to win with this deck because base from what i experienced,
spot removals and/or counters were my main problems specially if im going for the win via berserk.
so this made me think of incorporating NO-prog with this deck.

with the exceptions of noble and prog and vines, before it was llanowar and Simic the skyswallower and seal
that i was using. :)

[Tano]

:eek:
Be sure to keep us up-to-date with your results and matchs
Quirion is probably a bad idea without a mana generating elf there, and it will be uncommon for you to have Land Grants to pitch for BotH, since you'll have only one of these 14 lands 40% of the games. Also black decks can Duress/Kozilek/Thoughtseize your land grant, and blue decks can FoW/Daze/Snare/Spike/Pierce it, which makes you 86% chance on having at least one land drop down to 74% of reliable chance to have a land at starter hand against any deck using blue/black, opposed to the 98% a 16 Forest-only list got at any match.

As I said, 2 Sylvan got better % chances than 3 in having more pumps at early-mid game (switching the 3rd SL for a pump).
Actually, not running Sylvan got better chances than 3 Sylvan too.




Seriously? NO-prog? :eyebrow:
I'm curious to know your results with it.
I think that maybe this is a new deck, maybe post it under New and Development?

@gui: I will tell you about results and matches and if you want Gui, i can tell you the experience from the past, when i played that deck without the Sylvan libaries. So btw, the Quirion Ranger IS a mana producing elf on his own and doesnt need another llanowar elf for doing a good job. Furthermore he is able to produce mana and attack, he can save forests from beeing sinkholed and he can untap critters for blocking and so on. The quirion engine is loaded with a lot mini combos on itself.
Black decks doesnt frighten me since there are boggles and ledgwalkers in my deck. The loss of duressed or hymned cards isnt that bad in my opinion, and really worse were only killing spells like snuff out or smother. But its true that you have to look at your opening hand very seriously and have to make a skillfull desicion, wether you want to play or better take a mulligan. Same is true while playing against blue stuffed decks, because of FoW and all that counter stuff. And not to forget i love playing with only one forest an a quirion + another critter, because unskilled players often think , nothing bad can happen to them with only one forest on the table....

@paeng: Nice idea, why not? hehe... in my opinion a little more mana is needed so try that deck:

12 forest
3 G fetch

1 arbor
4 ESG
4 slippery Boggle
4 kavu
4 Llanowar Elf
1 progenitus
3 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Quirion ranger

4 Nat. Order

4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 might of old krosa
4 vines of vastwood

So... now it has significant more mana with the Quirion/Llanowar engine and with ESG in hand you are able to do a turn 2 natural order ( what a nice plan B now!). I added Silhana and Boggle too, because they are strong while getting pumped by berserk and strong while getting victimized from natural order. Hmm, i have to say i love this build with berserk and orders, when i look at the deck list :)

[Gui]

@Tano

Good, that would be insightful. Please, post these here, this is also what the forum is for; matchups and results are highly needed.

Don't get me wrong, but I play Stompy since 2006, and it's been at least 2 years since I figured that Land Grant was bad, even when running BotH, since chances that you have Land Grants left to play BotH are low, and it can jeopardize your mana base (as shown above, from 98% of having a land at starter hand down to 74%)

Sylvan Library, with 24 slots dedicated for pump or sylvan, goes like this:
24 pumps -> 60% chance that you have 4 pumps until 4th turn
22 pumps + 2 Sylvan -> 66% chance
21 pumps + 3 Sylvan -> 58% chance

Chances drop. That's because you run less pumps and increase the chances of drawing an useless card. These chances are going to increase after a few turns, but I prefer this deck to be designed to win before 5th turn if possible.


@paeng4983

Right, but, in my oppinion, this is a new deck. It has a different beat-down plan, a different strategy, different matchup analysis, and is not Stable yet. It's not like you are using the same plan with different colors, with the same strategy, matchups, etc...

Actually, Magic-Style's (Etienne Villani) version is less discussed here then I think it could, and it probably have some different results in matchs, which could already be enough for another thread, and Stabilished, since he had so many Top8's.

By the way, @Magic-Style, how is it going with that list using Noble + ESG? I'm not really sure about Noble instead of Petal, and why not using Assault Strobe instead of Fling? Because of instant speed or evasion issues?

[Tano]

@Tano

Good, that would be insightful. Please, post these here, this is also what the forum is for; matchups and results are highly needed.

Don't get me wrong, but I play Stompy since 2006, and it's been at least 2 years since I figured that Land Grant was bad, even when running BotH, since chances that you have Land Grants left to play BotH are low, and it can jeopardize your mana base (as shown above, from 98% of having a land at starter hand down to 74%)

Sylvan Library, with 24 slots dedicated for pump or sylvan, goes like this:
24 pumps -> 60% chance that you have 4 pumps until 4th turn
22 pumps + 2 Sylvan -> 66% chance
21 pumps + 3 Sylvan -> 58% chance

Chances drop. That's because you run less pumps and increase the chances of drawing an useless card. These chances are going to increase after a few turns, but I prefer this deck to be designed to win before 5th turn if possible.


Hey Gui,
i agree and 10 or 9 forest list isnt that list i play today. Iwill tomorrow take part at legacy tournament and i will post the results here in this thread. The deck i will use tomorrow is a 14 forest mono build with ESG and Quirion ranger (without Land grant and Bounty of the hunt). So will see what happens :)

[Masamune]

Hey Gui,
i agree and 10 or 9 forest list isnt that list i play today. Iwill tomorrow take part at legacy tournament and i will post the results here in this thread. The deck i will use tomorrow is a 14 forest mono build with ESG and Quirion ranger (without Land grant and Bounty of the hunt). So will see what happens :)

Natural Order??? Four?? Are you crazy?? it looks like "I have a Berserk Stompy here and if it fail I have a least tool to try to win"
Start with Progenitus in your opening hand and starts crying

[nedleeds]

Getting spell pierced on the draw after keeping a Land Grant hand is a way bigger problem than the Glasses of Urza.

[paeng4983]

hello there guys!
here's what happened to me using this deck over the weekend.
for friday legacy at philcoa, i brought this list:
10forest, 7 G fetches
4 skargan, 4 bogle, 2 scryb sprites, 2 scryb ranger, 4 nettle sentinel
4 kavu, 4 silhana
4 berserk, 4 invigorate, 4 might of old krosa, 4 rancor, 3 seal

sb:
3 reverent silence, 2 fog, 2 vines of vastwood, 4 tormods, 4 rushwood legate

we played 4 rds of swiss without any top8s or 4.
and the meta here were: sur-vengies, sui, dredge
bgw rock, zoo, thresh, stax, enchantress, etc

rd1 - zoo
bogle with rancor on her plus other pump spells sealed both games 1 and 2.
i won 2-0

rd2 - sui
if not for his timely rachet bomb,i almost have this game.
rachet bomb set at one for the win. i lose 0-2

rd3 - bgw rock
p.deeds and spot removals defined this match for him.
i lose 1-2

rd4 - thresh
silhana at skargan (with legate during our 2nd game) gave me the wins for both games.
i won 2-0

saturday, i played with my six HS buddies and one of
them brought two more guys so that bring our numbers
to 8. and the meta were, belcher, dredge, burn, affinity,
5peso,sur-vengies, merpok, stax.
even though this mini tourney was not sanctioned, we
treated it as if it was a sanctioned by having 1 booster
pack of SOM as one's registration fee. and we had decided
that only the 1st and 2nd placer wil have a 6 -2 split of
the prizes at the end of our mini 5rd non- sanctioned event.

this was the list that i brought for saturday's game,
12 forest, 4 G fetch
1 arbor, 4 ESG, 4 noble, 4 kavu, 3 skyshroud cutter, 1 progenitus, 3 tarmogoyf
4 Nat. Order, 2 S.Library, 2 w.tutor
4 invigorate, 4 berserk, 4 might of old krosa, 4 vines of vastwood

sb:
3 naturalize, 4 rushwood legate, 2 fog, 3 seeds of innocence, 3 tormods

rd1 - stax
CUTE. very cute.
i shuffled like 5 or six times and quitely talking to my deck,
"crap of all the 1st rd match, why stax?!"
after the shuffle i let him cut my deck,
roll the die in which he won, then i drew my 7 cards
(NO, s.cutter, esg, esg, fetch, noble,noble )
he opened with tomb casting cotv for one then done.
praying for another esg as my top deck, but it gave another noble instead.
ok drop fetch then done. for his 2nd turn, he dropped city of traitors
and another cotv this time it was set for two. then pass the turn.
i took a deep breath, crack my fectch get myself a forest then begun shuffling
my deck then again quitely talking to it "esg or forest. esg or forest pls pls pls"
on my draw phase, i drew a card. slowly looked at it and there it is my 3rd copy of esg!
without wasting any second i dropped s.cutter - let him gained life - threw 3 esg in the air
and cast NO fetching for progen. wow talk about top decking skills. :) swung progen for two more turns
and i won game one.
game two, he had a very explosive 1st turn, city of traitors plus mox plus trinisphere.
wow. great. as for me forest go. for his 2nd turn he dropped a supp. field. another wow
because my 2nd land that was in my hand was a wooded foothills. i never recovered from it
because i wasnt able to drew a land since then.
game three, ok my turn kavu for my 1st turn and he played cotv at one for his 1st turn.
on my 2nd turn, cast another kavu and s.cutter. attacked my 1st kavu then before stacking
the damage, i cast invigorate making my kavus much bigger. then he scoops. :)
1-0 2-1

rd2 - merpok
i won the die roll and immediately drew 7cards.
prog, s.cutter,cutter, kavu, esg, forest, noble that were in my opening for this rd.

Start with Progenitus in your opening hand and starts crying hahah for a second or two
anyway, i went kavu and s.cutter as my opening moves. mark scratched his
head a bit before doing any action. dropped an island and plays a catcher. then laughs.
drew berserk. perfect. cast my 2nd cutter for its alternate cost. kavu is now 12/12
attack kavu and my 1st cutter bring his life down to16. on his 2nd turn, again he just scratched his
head and dropped mutavault. on my 3rd turn, just before i tap all my creatures, he already scooped.
game two, i mulled twice because progen was in my opening hand.
on my last mulled i kept a hand of 2 fetches, noble, 2 rushwood.
as i expected, he dropped an island and a vial for his 1st turn. while i dropped
land, legate, legate and noble. he wasnt able to drew lands for the next two or three turns
but managed to bring down atlantis and sovereign because of his vial while on my side i drew kavu but no
pumpers of whatsoever kind. i eventually lose because his school of merpoks were at 4/4 which were
too much for a 0/1 and two 2/1 and a 2/2.
game three, turn one noble, turn two goyf. turn three NO... my oppenent paused for while. scratched his
head again before allowing NO. but before i find my progen he showed to me his hand, all lands. :) he conceded.
i win.
2-0 4-2

rd3 dredge
ok great another bad match up for me.
and as expected he was able to pull off a 2nd turn kill via a bunch of zombie tokens plus FKZ.
game two, the same thing happened but this time,it took him like 3 or 4 turns more before
killing me with his batallion of zombies plus FKZ. i lose miserably.
2-1 4-4

rd4 belcher
my dream of finishing either 1st or 2nd place is now slowly fading away because of the unfavorable match ups
that im having. ok, now i won the die roll and opened with fetch, crack it get a forest cast noble.
while on his side, cast an instant here, cast an instant there. sorcery here, sorcery there and the next thing i knew
he has an army of nasty goblins. i scooped. thinking he will go for those nasty gobs for his game two i packed in
my fogs.
game two, i mulled once because prog was in my 1st seven cards. and settled for
noble, forest, fetch, esg, w.tutor, fog. KEEP
have the same opening move, land noble pass. he on the other hand played a duress
smilingly took my fog from my hand. then for my 2nd turn,i top deck NO. :) things are now going
my way. for his 2nd turn, again he cast an instant here and there. sorcery here and there.
and at the end of it, he manage to cast a belcher BUT cannot activate it because he doesnt had
enough mana to pay for it. :) i swung my prog on my turn then pass. he then tapped for a moment his top
deck and asked for an LED. sweet baby jesus! it was an LED! great! he immediately dropped it sac LED tap
belcher targeting me, and began revealing the top of his library. the very 1st card to be revealed was a
TAIGA - hahaha talk about top decking skills! yeah baby!
game three, his 1st turn he went
land grant, fetching bayou, dark rit, threw ssg,rite of flame, then desperate ritual, cast belcher drop LED.
then stat revealing. we were all smiling and taunting at him because it might happened again. :)
and things went his way, he revealed like ten or more cards before taiga showed up. :) good game
i lose.
2-2 5-6

rd5 - burn
even if one of us manage to win 2-0, such effort is not enough to carry us to either 1st or 2nd place.
we just have it id and decided to watch the game between the top ranking decks for that night
stax 3-1 vs sur-vengies 4-0.

survival won it followed by dredge

then sunday came. after doing some house choirs,
i left the house 12:45 noon, as i was driving the expressway i texted my
good friend redmond and asked him what time does rd1 in titan normally
starts. he said 1pm. crap now i have 15mins left. ok great. i arrived in the venue 45 mins
past one. im late, and everyone was already playing went i got there. :)
and i decided not to play and go home instead and spend the rest of my day with raj.

:)

till next weekend folks.
:)
happy Halloween to all by the way :cool: