[Deck] Berserk Stompy

[NihilObstat]

3 tarmogoyf

Seeing that always brings a smile to the face ^^



On a different topic, I have been thinking and I see a lot of potencial in 4x Sylvan Library + 4x Bounty of the Hunt, for obvious reasons, you can pitch library to bounty, draw a lot with sylvan and then play 4x free pumps.




Also I keep seeing an increasing amount of Merfolks in my meta, huge amount, so I have considered running 4x Scryb Sprites over Nettle because of it's evasion, and 4x Rushwood Legate in my sideboard. Do you see both as good options against the little "see people" or could rushwood fail because of 8x non island lands ?




To TANO: I'm really liking your build but I would deffinitely take 4x Land Grant out, and Dryad Arbor, and add forets, that would leave it in 14, plus ESG, and Quirion, which should be fine, but maybe it would need 1 more land or so.

[Gui]

Rushwood Legate is huge, you can test it, I assure it`s worth testing. Maybe you don't like it, but my opinion is that it works, not only against merfolks, but against anything with Blue (more than half of the decks?).

Scryb is a fine card, never cut it from possible 1cc. I'm not sure if I preffer to be Combo-ish or Aggro-ish against merfolks, aggro-control tends to have more problems against more creatures with some pump backup. I'd say no for cutting Nettle. I'd say yes for adding her as 21st-24th creatures if you got the room.

Also, from my experience more than from my playtest, we are supposed to have a favorable match against merfolks, and with Vexing and Rushwood, it gets better.

[paeng4983]

i always have rushwood legates in my SB because it's a strong card vs. blue base decks.
i remember there was a time (as i was against a thresh then) my opening hand consisted
of 3 rushwood legates. :) on my next turn, i dealt 8 damage to my opponent. sweet!

gui, nihilo, magic-style i sent you guys a private message. :)

other than berserk, invigorate, rancor and might of old krosa, seal of strength,
what other good pump spells that can we add here? thanks..

regarding the sylvan library and bounty of the hunt, i think these combination is
only strong on paper. i'd rather run two sylvan library and other pump spells than
running 4 lib and 4 B.hunt :)

[Gui]

Besides these pumps, Vines of Vastwood is what you should add, but if you are looking for 1cc pumps, then Giant Growth is far my next one, followed by Briar Shield. The only 2cc pump that can be more deadly than Vines is Wild Might, but no trollshroud. I tested Llanowar Augur when I had 4 goyfs in the deck too, but he's not that huge even with goyfs. And of course, if you like you can try Bounty of the Hunt.

[Royal Ass.]

Gui- I noticed in a list you posted on the last page that your deck only ran 16 lands. I recently put a Berserk Stompy deck together and have so far only had a chance to goldfish. I'm running 16 forest and 1 Pendelhaven. I am thinking of upping the forests to 17 plus 1 Pendelhaven. I personally like to error on having a little more mana as I hate to get mana screwed. I am also running 2 Sylvan Libraries and figure that that can help you deal with a situation where you are getting too much land.

Do you find yourself getting mana screwed often with only 16 lands. To me it seems too risky. In goldfishing I feel like I'm getting too many opening hands with only 1 land. I feel like the deck needs 2 lands early on to get things going to deal 20 damage by turn 3-4.

EDIT: Also, have you tried running Noble Hierarchs? They would provide a mana accelerant, pump, and a body to attack with. Seems pretty good in theory. I see some other decks running this. What are you thoughts on it?

[Gui]

Gui- I noticed in a list you posted on the last page that your deck only ran 16 lands. I recently put a Berserk Stompy deck together and have so far only had a chance to goldfish. I'm running 16 forest and 1 Pendelhaven. I am thinking of upping the forests to 17 plus 1 Pendelhaven. I personally like to error on having a little more mana as I hate to get mana screwed. I am also running 2 Sylvan Libraries and figure that that can help you deal with a situation where you are getting too much land.

Do you find yourself getting mana screwed often with only 16 lands. To me it seems too risky. In goldfishing I feel like I'm getting too many opening hands with only 1 land. I feel like the deck needs 2 lands early on to get things going to deal 20 damage by turn 3-4.

To be honest, yes.
Told a friend that a few days ago. I've been trying to increase land count in my tests, I'm currently using 17 forest (which is already better), have tryed 15 and 16 with 4 Noble Hierarch too, but so far, 17 w/o nobles is better for the other two elements -- creatures and pumps.
I find Noble to be weak as a first turn creature when using to few creatures, and I miss having at least 22 pump spots, and currently using 23 (I kind of count Sylvana as pumps :P ). Noble is, tecnically, less safe than plain forests as a mana source, and less effective as a creature, although it's a mini-pump. They are not bad, but I prefer plain old forests.

The need for the second land is a fact, even reducing 2cc counts and playing 4-of Seal, Rancor and Invigorate, I still need the 2 lands to combo fast. And 8 out of my 20 creatures are 2cc, and I refuse to cut them. Bounty, Briar and Augur are the other options of "free spells" that could help combo with 1x land...

I feel like 18 is a good number (wierd how that's the number used by CHaPuZaS at his Top1 in 2007, when he commented "I just felt it was the right number") although it floods sometimes and shrinks my gas. I'll put some test on 18 and 17 + 1x Pendelhaven.

[paeng4983]

http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Berserk.jpg

helle there guys!

white most of you are tweaking with the 12-18 infect dudes,
im thinking of ADDING this infect mechanic with what i currently
have with my 5peso stumpy (berserk stumpy).
here's what i have as of the moment:

4 wooded foothills
4 windswepth heath
2 savannah
2 bayou
2 taiga
3 forest

4 kavu predator
3 skychroud cutter
4 slippery bogle
4 noble hierarch
4 qasali pridemage

3 Lotus Petal

4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
3 Vines of vastwoods
4 tainted strike
2 assualt strobe

regarding the sideboard, im still thinking of what to use.
your thoughts guys
:)


*reposted it here. i hope im not violating
any forum rules because it fits on both topics.
*thanks for the pics gui

[Gui]

Hey paeng4983,

I think it's possible to use tained strike in here, yes, but it got the same problem Strobe got: it won't stack as berserk does. You'd probably be better running 4/3/3 berserk/strobe/tained.

Also, with all that berserkish material, there's no reason not to play a full set of Silhana Ledgewalkers there. They got everything you want from a creature for berserk: Evasion and Protection.
Not using rancor is debatable, but Silhanas are alto-include IMO.

I don't know what to cut, tho. I'd probably try this:
-1 vastwood
-1 pridemage
-2 hierarch
-1 skyshroud cutter
-1 tained striken

And then:
+1 Assault Strobe,
+1 Lotus Petal
+4 Silhana Ledgewalker

I don't know if ESG wouldn't be better than Noble too...

[paeng4983]

Hey paeng4983,
it got the same problem Strobe got: it won't stack as berserk does.


i did not get this? are you saying that if i cast T.S., it will not go to stack?
T.S. has instant speed. so if he manage to counter your berserk, then you
still have another outlet via T.S.

i was thinking of using 4 noble and 4 qasali for the extra +1/+1 :)
i think i'll revamp this again so that i can get silhana back and probably ESG too.

[NecroYawgmoth]

He means stacking if you have 2 of them... Berserk doubles the damage in such a situation, Strike doesn't...

look, for example... if you have a creature [Bogle for example]

Berserk mathematics

1/1
+ MooK = 5/5
+ Berserk = 10/5 Trample
+ Berserk = 20/5 Trample -> enough


Tainted Strike mathematics

1/1
+MooK = 5/5
+ Tainted Strike = 6/5 Infect
+ Tainted Strike = 7/5 Infect -> not enough

[Mr. Safety]

I have heard some minor buzz around including Assault Strobe and splashing red to Berserk Stompy.

My question is this: how good could Kiln Fiend be with that kind of setup?

[paeng4983]

tnx necro.

@ mr. safety
klin fiend is good if your deck runs more instant or sorcery.
i would say 16 creatures, that would be silhana, kavu, bogle and klin
then 15-17 lands depending on your playing style.
then the rest instant or sorcery pump spells.

[Mr. Safety]

That's what I thought.

Current list I'm playtesting (I do not own a/b/rev duel lands...)

Slippery Bogle x4
Skarrgan Pit Skulk x4
Silhana Ledgewalker x4
Kavu Predator x4
Kiln Fiend x4
Elvish Spirit Guide x4

Assault Strobe x4
Berserk x4
Might of Old Krosa x4
Invigorate x4
Rancor x3
Sylvan Library x1

Wooded Foothills x1
Stomping Ground x3
Karplusan Forest x2
Forest x10

I worry I don't have enough pump spells to feed a big berserk...I'm considering dropping one of the dudes for Giant Growth...not sure how to figure this one out...

Help?

[Gui]

That's what I thought.

Current list I'm playtesting (I do not own a/b/rev duel lands...)

Slippery Bogle x4
Skarrgan Pit Skulk x4
Silhana Ledgewalker x4
Kavu Predator x4
Kiln Fiend x4
Elvish Spirit Guide x4

Assault Strobe x4
Berserk x4
Might of Old Krosa x4
Invigorate x4
Rancor x3
Sylvan Library x1

Wooded Foothills x1
Stomping Ground x3
Karplusan Forest x2
Forest x10

I worry I don't have enough pump spells to feed a big berserk...I'm considering dropping one of the dudes for Giant Growth...not sure how to figure this one out...

Help?

You have a high count of 2cc treats, and need 2 open forest for most of you berserk situations as well, so I recomend you to fix your manabase. I'd rather run more forests than running ESG, and if you decide to keep ESG, you might need to decrease your power somewhere else. You should try to reach 18 lands there, probably.

I wouldn't use 4x Assault Strobe, and would always use 4x Rancor (Although I realize you don't want enchants, rancor is needed when you only got Strobe). Also, 6 Red lands won't be enough for the splash, considering you may end up with only Kiln Fiend as creature w/o a red land. You can try these new GR lands, or more karplusan forests if you can't add fetchs or duals.

And Giant Growth won't fix your Berserk, what can do that is Seal of Strength. With GG, you'll still need more lands than that, IMO.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for the insight...it will definately help me with playtesting. My thinking for Elvish Spirit Guide was entirely so I could get a 2 mana dude on the table turn 1.

I'll work up to 18 lands, get the 4th Rancor BACK in, and drop my Assault Strobe count to 2. Six Berserk-effects should be enough.

New list for testing:

Slippery Bogle x4
Skarrgan Pit Skulk x4
Silhana Ledgewalker x4
Kavu Predator x4
Kiln Fiend x3
Elvish Spirit Guide x4

Assault Strobe x2
Berserk x4
Might of Old Krosa x4
Invigorate x4
Rancor x4
Sylvan Library x1

Wooded Foothills x1
Stomping Ground x4
Karplusan Forest x4
Forest x9

Now for a tough question: Lightning Bolt...does it belong in a red-splashed stompy deck?

[paeng4983]

Lightning Bolt...does it belong in a red-splashed stompy deck?

with what we have here, i could say no because
our aim here is to finish our opponent via big
damage off an attacking creature.


I do not own a/b/rev duel lands....


Wooded Foothills x1
Stomping Ground x4
Karplusan Forest x4
Forest x9


why only one foothills?
i suggest this for your mana base:
4 wooded F.
4 stomping G.
9 forest


sylan library
i know she's good but
i don't think drawing it in a crucial point of the game
would be useful. BUT im keeping it in the list
because it will help you fix your hand for that
juggernaut punch you'll deliver later on.


here's what's in my mind using RG klin stompy
4 klin
4 kavu
4 bogle
4 silhana

4 lotus petal/ ESG

4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
2 assault strobe
4 vines of the vastwoods
3 seal of strenght/ g.growth

2 sylvan library

4 wooded F.
4 stomping G.
9 forest

about the sideboard let's talk about that later.
:)

[Gui]

paeng,

Don't you think 16 creatures is a little too low? I mean, I reduced my creature count to 20 to increase the pumps, and sometimes I regreat not having more creatures,,, how is 16 working for you?

[Mr. Safety]

with what we have here, i could say no because
our aim here is to finish our opponent via big
damage off an attacking creature.




why only one foothills?
i suggest this for your mana base:
4 wooded F.
4 stomping G.
9 forest


i know she's good but
i don't think drawing it in a crucial point of the game
would be useful. BUT im keeping it in the list
because it will help you fix your hand for that
juggernaut punch you'll deliver later on.


here's what's in my mind using RG klin stompy
4 klin
4 kavu
4 bogle
4 silhana

4 lotus petal/ ESG

4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
2 assault strobe
4 vines of the vastwoods
3 seal of strenght/ g.growth

2 sylvan library

4 wooded F.
4 stomping G.
9 forest

about the sideboard let's talk about that later.
:)

I like the set-up...but the likelihood of getting a turn 1 threat is a lot lower without Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, you only have Bogle. I feel it's neccessary, as Gui_Brasil says, to have at least 20 creatures. Chances are good you're going to have one killed, and you need a creature to win, period. BUT, and this is the reality, if I'm committed to using Kiln Fiend, spells must be at their maximum count to make him work. If I find too many situations where I don't have a creature to play in my opening 7 cards, and I have to mulligan too aggressively to get one, then I'll go back to the mono-green list with Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, and possibly Nettle Sentinel.

I DO NOT consider Elvish Spirit Guide a creature...it's a free mana source like Lotus Petal, but essentially uncounterable (although tempo thresh packs 4x Stifle maindeck usually...yuck)

As far as the Wooded Foothills go, availability is a problem. I own one and I haven't found a reasonable source for the other 3. I have a playset of Arid Mesa, but I'm not feeling that would be the wisest choice to put an off-color fetch in there. It would ONLY fetch Stomping Ground, not a basic forest...late game against other aggressive decks would mean I couldn't dodge the 2 life-loss from Stomping Ground. Karplusan Forest would only ding me for one (same as Foothills) but I wouldn't need to fetch Stomping Ground and take 2.

I don't understand the idea that Seal of Strength would be better than Giant Growth...If I were using Goyfs, that's a different matter as it pumps Goyf to have an enchantment in the graveyard. Without Goyf, Giant Growth seems superior at instant speed.

One thing I really like is your inclusion of Vines of Vastwood...because it will protect Kiln Fiend from removal for only G. If I have GG available, it's another +4/+4. Pretty solid tech, and a reason to get 18 lands in there alongside the ESG's.

New list:

Slippery Bogle x4
Kiln Fiend x4
Silhana Ledgewalker x4
Kavu Predator x4

Bersek x4
Assault Strobe x2
Invigorate x4
Vines of Vastwood x4
Might of Old Krosa x4
Rancor x4

Elvish Spirit Guide x4
Karplusan Forest x4
Stomping Ground x4
Wooded Foothills x1
Forest x 9


Now for the sideboard...which can be tricky considering this is essentially a combo deck. Explanations for cards will follow.

I have been using this:

3x Winter Orb
4x Autumn's Veil
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip

Winter Orb - some aggro decks are using Choke...but in such a low-land deck, this seems just as good. Choke doesn't let islands untap, but that doesn't stop Force of Will/Daze ANYWAYS. The cheaper cost of Orb seems smart considering the control decks need to get their mana rolling to eventually get enough board advantage to win.

Autumn's Veil - along with Vines of Vastwood, this is another green 'counterspell'. It protects from removal like Smother and can be a good response to Force of Will. If I have ESG in my hand, it's the same as playing Force of Will, but in green.

Vexing Shusher - an uncounterable creature that can protect against the control decks. Control decks can really mess us up when they counter our creatures. This ensures they hit the table. I'm thinking 3 may be too many though, 2 might be enough.

Tormod's Crypt - free graveyard hate, essential for the dredge matchup, hoses threshold, and can hose reanimator if it ever gets strong play again.

Krosan Grip - shouldn't have to explain this one. Trinisphere is a scoop if they land it before I can get their life low enough. I'm debating Ancient Grudge with the red splash...it seems really good considering flashback is so cheap. In a CounterTop heavy metagame, or one where Ravager/Affinity is trying to make a comeback, I would play Ancient Grudge x4 in the sideboard. Thoughts?

[NihilObstat]

Now for the sideboard...
I have been using this:
3x Winter Orb
4x Autumn's Veil
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Krosan Grip


I believe that since we only draw 1 card per turn in this deck, so we will end up the game having seen something like 9-13 cards max, sideboarding so many 3 or 2 of something will many times be useless because we will most likely not get it.

I would recommend 4x Vexing, he is awesome, and He is a creature!!!
I also suggest not playing Winter Orb, but if you like it, go for it. I only see Winter in Elves decks with mana generating dudes.
Autumn's veil only works once, while Vexing can be used many times, but Veil is a good card anyway, although I believe that not 4x
Tormod's is good, but I suggest either Not running grave hate, or running 6 cards (4x tormod's, 2 ravenous trap or 2 faerie macabre, others..). It's either we draw it and win, or we lose against dredge. It's also good against aggro-loam, 43lands, reanimate and many other decks.
Krosan grip, at CMC 3 destroying only 1 target, looks weak to me, but that's up to everyone. I prefer Seeds of Innoncence or Reverent Silence, plus Gleeful sabotage, which copied is uncounterable :O

My sideboard in monogreen looks like:
4x Vexing Shusher + 2x Rushwood Legate
4x Tormod's (other) + 1x Trap
3x Seeds of Innocence + 1x Gleeful sabotage (I usually run 1 or 2 art/ench removal maindeck - Viridian Zealot or Sabotage)




By the way, the reason to use Seal of strength, is because you spend mana on it one turn, don't use it, and the next turn you have a +3/+3 for 0 mana, so running 4x Seal instead of Giant growth allows you to pretty much run 1 land less.

[Mr. Safety]

Ahhh...there's the trick to Seal of Strength. I don't think it belongs in Fiend Stompy, but in mono-green, yep it's better than Giant Growth. Thanks for the knowledge.

I think you're right about the lack of draw, you're counting on a densely packed dedicated list and not so much on library manipulation. Therefore the best cards, even in the sideboard, need to be at 4, or even having up to 6 copies of some effects.

Revised sideboard:

4x Vexing Shusher
4x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ravenous Trap
2x Ancient Grudge
4x Viridian Zealot

[Tru3z3rox]

I see many of you are running Shusher, which is great. Don't get me wrong, but it is quite mana intensive to make your spells uncounterable. Most of our spells are instants. Correct? Why not turn 1 Xanthid Swarm and pump on the attack phase?

[Mr. Safety]

I see many of you are running Shusher, which is great. Don't get me wrong, but it is quite mana intensive to make your spells uncounterable. Most of our spells are instants. Correct? Why not turn 1 Xanthid Swarm and pump on the attack phase?

I see Xantid Swarm as a functional substitute for Autumn's Veil...but it can be killed pretty easy. Shusher HIMSELF is uncounterable, and then you basically just slow down a slight bit to have a spare G to use on your pump spells. You are still going to outpace control decks this way, and Shusher gives you game. Xantid Swarm prevents spells from being cast when it attacks...but chances are good your opponent is going to counter it with Daze/FoW before you can use it. Autumn's Veil is superior to Xantid Swarm because you can cast it IN RESPONSE to Daze/FoW.

Xantid Swarm is more of a combo weapon, TBH. I see Xantid Swarm in a few different sideboards, mostly combo decks that are trying to combo out without fear of getting anything countered.

[blaat]

Xantid Swarm is more of a combo weapon, TBH. I see Xantid Swarm in a few different sideboards, mostly combo decks that are trying to combo out without fear of getting anything countered.

Well, isn't this exactly what we're doing?
I won many games with just an attacking xantid swarm, and he couldn't do anything about the followup of uncounterable pump + berserk.
If he does remove it in response, you play your second (now uncounterable) critter and pass the turn.
If he was a wiseguy, he removed it before the attack phase.

This card is great against any deck with counters and sometimes players who don't remove it but could.
It is a flyer, but has zero power which can sometimes be problematic; however I haven't seen this that much in testing.

Shusher looks nice, but it needs a lot of mana to get spells through.

[Tru3z3rox]

I see Xantid Swarm as a functional substitute for Autumn's Veil...but it can be killed pretty easy. Shusher HIMSELF is uncounterable, and then you basically just slow down a slight bit to have a spare G to use on your pump spells. You are still going to outpace control decks this way, and Shusher gives you game. Xantid Swarm prevents spells from being cast when it attacks...but chances are good your opponent is going to counter it with Daze/FoW before you can use it. Autumn's Veil is superior to Xantid Swarm because you can cast it IN RESPONSE to Daze/FoW.

Xantid Swarm is more of a combo weapon, TBH. I see Xantid Swarm in a few different sideboards, mostly combo decks that are trying to combo out without fear of getting anything countered.

What kind of deck do you think you're playing? You do the exact same thing as other combo decks. You play a chain of spells, hopefully for the win. Xanthid swarm protects all of those spells from counters. The ONLY case where shusher is better than swarm is probably against counterbalance.

[Gui]

What kind of deck do you think you're playing? You do the exact same thing as other combo decks. You play a chain of spells, hopefully for the win. Xanthid swarm protects all of those spells from counters. The ONLY case where shusher is better than swarm is probably against counterbalance.

This is not true. Berserk Stompy is ALSO a combo deck, but not exclusively. Mr. Safety's argument is right, against blue control, it's better to have creatures aggro than it is to have a combo that will most likely fail to FoW. Vexing Shusher is better than Xantid in many ways, and to be honest, I'd never use Xantid as protection while using Might of Old Krosa. Xantid will get countered and killed before it can help you to combo against control. Shusher is better against Counterbalance and against Chalice of the Void, and is better against UGx tempo decks as well as Merfolks.

If you deny that Berserk Stompy is also able to play the aggro role, the only big reason remaining to play it over ANT would be $$$.

@Mr. Safety
I'd play Gleeful Sabotage if you are not going to use Krosan Grip. Gleeful is superior to Viridian, IMO (it's superior to krosan on low mana versions too).

[Mr. Safety]

This is not true. Berserk Stompy is ALSO a combo deck, but not exclusively. Mr. Safety's argument is right, against blue control, it's better to have creatures aggro than it is to have a combo that will most likely fail to FoW. Vexing Shusher is better than Xantid in many ways, and to be honest, I'd never use Xantid as protection while using Might of Old Krosa. Xantid will get countered and killed before it can help you to combo against control. Shusher is better against Counterbalance and against Chalice of the Void, and is better against UGx tempo decks as well as Merfolks.

If you deny that Berserk Stompy is also able to play the aggro role, the only big reason remaining to play it over ANT would be $$$.

@Mr. Safety
I'd play Gleeful Sabotage if you are not going to use Krosan Grip. Gleeful is superior to Viridian, IMO (it's superior to krosan on low mana versions too).

Thanks for the backup, Gui_Brasil. I agree wholeheartedly. I see the 2 cards (Xantid Swarm & Vexing Shusher) performing 2 different functions. Xantid Swarm is NOT for the control matchup...as soon as the control player sees it, they'll clue in to what you're doing. That means Daze/FoW or Brainstorm to FIND Daze/Fow. They will realize that Xantid Swarm is going to be problematic. Shusher on the other hand is just flat out uncounterable (either with Daze/Fow OR CounterTop...just can't be countered period.) That means we ARE GOING TO HAVE A CREATURE ON THE TABLE which is key to winning. We don't need to be really fast in the control matchup, just consistent. I've played so many games against control decks where I was just trying to out-race them...and it couldn't be done unless I had free mana open and a Shusher in play. So that means CALM DOWN, settle into the game, make the safe plays, and wait for the mana to show up so you can grind through for the win.

Xantid Swarm, without haste, is a liability in my honest opinion. I just don't like wasting a G to play a dude that will be countered or killed before I can use it. There is so much cheap removal in the game and 8 free counterspells that make him just a waste. If I play a Slippery Bogle/Silhana Ledgewalker un-countered, it will most likely win me the game because of the troll-shroud factor. Xantid Swarm is a sitting duck.

I know what you're going to ask me: then why use Kiln Fiend? Because Kiln Fiend increases the chance for a turn 3 win. Xantid Swarm can't do that. Fiend grows all by himself, essentially giving you a free Reckless Charge with every pump spell. Might of Old Krosa = +7/+4. Stack a Berserk on top of that during combat, and you have a 21/4 trampler. That's a turn 3 win, most likely. If your opponent doesn't have a blocker, this is also a situation where it would be reasonable to cast Assault Strobe pre-combat. It will most likely 'fish' out their counterspell, if they have one. But you still played a sorcery...so Fiend STILL gets +3/+0.

Now lets take the same scenario with Xantid Swarm played on turn 1 un-countered. You pass the turn, giving them a chance to draw into removal. Let's say the don't draw it and pass the turn back to you, playing something like Sensei's Divining Top. You untap, play Might of Old Krosa on Xantid Swarm and attack for 4 with protection (16 life). If you have your second land/Elvish Spirit Guide, you drop another threat, maybe a Slippery Bogle or Skarrgan Pit Skulk as a 2/2. You pass the turn, and they have another opporutunity to draw into removal, with SDT helping them search, or possibly a Brainstorm/Ponder showing up to help them fish for one. Lets say they STILL don't get removal (lucky you...) You're still sitting on 2 threats on the board as you go into turn 3, GREAT!!! You drop your second land (now you're REALLY luck, lol) play Might of Old Krosa on Skarrgan Pit Skulk, and Berserk on him during combat so he gets in for 12 damage, protected by Xantid Swarm (you're lucky...Might and Berserk go uncountered...) They are now at 4 life. It's turn 3, you still haven't won the game, and you now have given your opponent ANOTHER TURN to find removal or draw into counterspells. If you get lucky and draw into another pump spell (probable) you can concievably win on turn 4. If you don't draw one, you're looking at another turn to set up the win, because you can only attack for 2 with Skulk (this providing they haven't gotten a blocker onto the table yet...) Need I go on? Xantid Swarm just doesn't cut it.

Lets take the same scenario again, only this time instead of Kiln Fiend or Xantid swarm, we have Vexing Shusher to play. Turn one, you play a Forest and pass the turn. Turn 2, you play your second Forest/ESG to get Shusher onto the battlefield. They might have FoW/Daze, they might not. Doesn't matter, it's hitting the table. They still get a chance to draw into removal (which, if you haven't figured out yet, is the biggest weak point of Berserk Stompy's non-shroud creatures like Kiln Fiend, Skarrgan Pit Skulk, Kavu Predator, and in some cases Tarmogoyf) They don't draw removal, so they set up with Sensei's Divining Top. Your turn, you don't draw a second land yet (probable) and you attack for 2 and pass the turn. This game will go on quite a bit longer, but if you can keep Shusher on the table and a spare mana open to protect your spells, you're GOING to grind through for the win. If they kill Shusher, that means you've emptied one removal from their deck, so you have better chances of landing a Slippery Bogle or Silhana Ledgwalker, which if go uncountered, will eventually win you the game. You're going to go mid-late game, probably 6+ turns. But you have some inevitability on your side that is powerful against control.

Sure, Vexing Shusher can get removed, but his potential is UNREAL compared to Xantid Swarm. Kiln Fiend, same deal. He's worth playing in stompy simply for the turn 3 win.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm pushing for Shusher pretty hard because I strongly believe in his power level over Xantid Swarm. You have to switch gears in your head when playing against control...control has a GREAT matchup against combo decks, simply because of 8 free counterspells, and in a lot of cases CounterTop to lock you down. You need to play the aggro to win against them.

[paeng4983]

i played friday night and sunday afternoon local legacy tournaments
here using this deck and in both tournaments i landed 3rd. my losses
for both tournaments came from the same type: V.V. SURVIVAL.

i remember,i was so close of winning the game, wherein i was
able to pinned his life to down to one. but unfortunately, his 4 vengies
saved his as$. *sigh*

im still on the drawing board of "how to get around with v.v sur" thingy.
do you guys have any new inputs for this? thanks

*the meta by the way for both tournaments were as follows:
3 survival
3 merfolk
4 zoo
1 dredge
1 aggro elves
1 reanimator
1 landstill
2 goblin
1 belcher
x others i forgot :)

thanks..

[NecroYawgmoth]

I think, there isn't much against VV Survival, except maybe Needle... =/ too bad, but we are not the only deck, that suffers under VV-Sur =P


Actually... I am in a discussion with Gui and a few other Guys... If we have the standard creatures 4off Skargan, Bogle, Kavu, Ledgewalker..., and play our standard mono-G Pump 4 off Zerk, Rancor, MooK, Invigorate + xx Seal, VoV, whatever

What do you think is more important in the creaturebase, 1 Mana, 2 Power Creeps like [Nettle, Skyshroud, Jungle Lion], or evasive Critters [Scrybs, Treetop Scout, etc]? IMO its the 1 Mana, 2 Power Creatures, what are u guys thinking?

[paeng4983]

What do you think is more important in the creaturebase, 1 Mana, 2 Power Creeps like [Nettle, Skyshroud, Jungle Lion], or evasive Critters [Scrybs, Treetop Scout, etc]? IMO its the 1 Mana, 2 Power Creatures, what are u guys thinking?

as much as possible i'll try to harmonize the two options here necro.
here's the list that i ran for both tournaments:

5 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 windswepth heath
2 scryb ranger
3 slippery bogle
3 skarggan
3 jungle lion
3 nettle sentinel
2 scryb sprites
4 silhana ledgewalker
4 kavu predator
3 skyshroud cutter
4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 might of old krosa
4 seal of primordium
4 rancor

SB
3 reverent silence
3 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
4 rushwood legate
3 Vov

:)

[Gui]

as much as possible i'll try to harmonize the two options here necro.
here's the list that i ran for both tournaments:

I've done splits like that with other creatures before, it really seems to be an option to me. Even some "unjustified" splits, like 3 Scryb / 3 Skarrg, in which Skarrg is probably better, can be justified by Moat and chump blocking some flyer. Seems like every creature of ours got an advantage and disadvantage over the others on the pile.

NecroYawgmoth is right, we've been discussing this, and I'm currently splitting 3/3 Nettle/Scryb to test their effectiveness. Against counterspells control, I'd rather have power 2 1cc's, but against aggro and mostly Tarmogoyf, I like flying better. What's the general oppinion and current choices?

[Mr. Safety]

I've done splits like that with other creatures before, it really seems to be an option to me. Even some "unjustified" splits, like 3 Scryb / 3 Skarrg, in which Skarrg is probably better, can be justified by Moat and chump blocking some flyer. Seems like every creature of ours got an advantage and disadvantage over the others on the pile.

NecroYawgmoth is right, we've been discussing this, and I'm currently splitting 3/3 Nettle/Scryb to test their effectiveness. Against counterspells control, I'd rather have power 2 1cc's, but against aggro and mostly Tarmogoyf, I like flying better. What's the general oppinion and current choices?

I've been thinking about the VengeVival matchup, too...and there doesn't seem to be any clear answer. Here are a few ideas:

Meekstone - it's cheap, which we like, and doesn't require a splash color. All of our dudes will untap (save Kavu Predator) but he would be the sideboard sub. It means you'll only take one hit from a Vengevine...and then it's locked out of the game until they deal with Meekstone. It may only work for 1-2 turns, but that may just be enough to make it count. In some cases you would have to chump block Vengvine to stay alive, but you CAN create a soft lock with Meekstone.

Elvish Visionary - basically a chump w/cantrip so he replaces himself. Probably not worth even testing, but the ability to chump with auto-replacement sounds sort of good...

Manamorphose - this lets us essentially play 56 cards...it cantrips so it replaces itself right off, and can help us get more consistent draws. Works REALLY well with an active Sylvan Library.

Leyline of the Void - you have to dedicate 4 slots in the board to it so you can play it for free, and then you have to mulligan aggressively so you can open the game with it. This seems risky, but a potential weapon. Need playtesting.

[Gui]

Pithing Needle and Gleeful Sabotage are by far the best options, imo. Needle also shuts Shaman and Mongrel, while Gleeful also kills their everplayed Jitte

[paeng4983]

Pithing Needle and Gleeful Sabotage are by far the best options...

i might get faerie macabre back in my SB list.
she have this surprise factor against v.v sur decks.
:)

L.O.T_void? then mulligan aggressively? in a mono green deck? bad idea....
although i like the meekstone. i'd give that artifact a try

Gleeful Sabotage? why play it?

:confused:

[Gui]

i might get faerie macabre back in my SB list.
she have this surprise factor against v.v sur decks.
:)

L.O.T_void? then mulligan aggressively? in a mono green deck? bad idea....
although i like the meekstone. i'd give that artifact a try

Gleeful Sabotage? why play it?

:confused:

To put it simple: Gleeful Sabotage is the best disenchant effect we have.

For those who don't know how Gleeful Sabotage works: Gleeful got conspire, which means you can tap 2 green creature and copy it into the pile. The copy isn't casted, so that chalice won't trigger for it. The same is valid for Counterbalance, although a good player will try to hardcounter the copy and balancecounter the casted spell.

So, the reasons for that are as follow:
a) Most of the games, we'll be sitting at 1~2 mana, unless we increase out manabase. Thus, Krosan Grip is subpar.
b) Instant speed isn't better than being able to override CB+Top or Chalice of the Void @2, thus, Naturalize is subpar
c) 1cc removals (oxidizes and such) won't ever override CB+Top or Chalice @1, being subpar.
d) Seal of Primordium has to be cast before an stabilished CB+Top or Chalice@2, so it's a bad topdeck
e) Against Vengevines, Krosan Grip is subpar because of it's speed, it won't enter turn 2 unless you got ESGs, and by turn 3, a resolved Survival will already have 2-4 Vengevines.
f) Against Enchantress, Stax and Affinity, it represents an obvious card advantage.


And for the record: don't side tormods against Vengevine.

[Mr. Safety]

Why not Tormod's Crypt against Vengevine? I like the Gleeful Sabotage explanation, I really like the teck.

I TOTALLY spaced on Pithing Needle, one of the best weapons for ANY deck in legacy. Man, I'm kicking myself for not thinking of that one.

I still like the Meekstone teck for decks like Vengevine, New Horizons, and to a smaller extent Zoo.

[Gui]

Why not Tormod's Crypt against Vengevine? I like the Gleeful Sabotage explanation, I really like the teck.

I TOTALLY spaced on Pithing Needle, one of the best weapons for ANY deck in legacy. Man, I'm kicking myself for not thinking of that one.

I still like the Meekstone teck for decks like Vengevine, New Horizons, and to a smaller extent Zoo.

Tormod's are easy to work around. If they are playing Iona, they will bring this. If not, they can either bring one vengevine at a time, or bring them 2 by 2. Or bring something to break Tormod's. Destroying/Disabling Survival is way more effective against them.

Meekstone is, somehow, something I think I'm up to test as SB when I get the chance... it can be useful against other decks (I'm mostly thinking about Zoo, tbh).

[Mr. Safety]

I'm really thinking hard about this Meekstone idea, and there are a couple of REALLY BIG roadblocks to it's effectiveness:

1) Zoo (and some Rock lists) use Qasali Pridemage x4 maindeck. Some Rock lists sideboard it in some number. G/W aggro, while a fringe tier 2 deck, would most certainly have it x4 in the maindeck. Even New Horizons has shown Pridemage in some number. With Berserk's lack of removal, we're really on the downside of that matchup.

2) Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, packs artifact hate in the board. Meekstone would be their only target (unless you also sideboard in Pithing Needle) so you're pretty much guaranteed a blank when you spend the 1 mana on it.

Essentially, if I'm going to playtest Meekstone, I'm going to playtest it right alongside Pithing Needle. My gut feeling is that they would work well together, but Meekstone alone wouldn't really work well. Needle is great tech regardless, giving you a turn or more to get the job done, but Meekstone can be destroyed at instant speed, sometimes the same turn it comes out, making it have NO effect on the game.

[Masamune]

Hm...nice observation...IMO I think Meekstone isn't the right answer... Sabotage and Needle is better, but just delay a little... :(
Does anyone have a better suggestion?

[paeng4983]

Hm...nice observation...IMO I think Meekstone isn't the right answer... Sabotage and Needle is better, but just delay a little... :(
Does anyone have a better suggestion?

FOG?
i think i am the only berserk stumpy user that is an avid fan of having a couple fog in the SB. :)
it works well with me. :tongue:

[Gui]

We should either look for a tech that is really strong, or tweak our maindeck against them. Siding more than 4 non-creature non-pump (non-land) effects cause our deck to malfunction due to lack of fuel. If you are already siding 8, and want to add more 4 meekstone, prepare to play your deck as a control deck. xD

[Mr. Safety]

We should either look for a tech that is really strong, or tweak our maindeck against them. Siding more than 4 non-creature non-pump (non-land) effects cause our deck to malfunction due to lack of fuel. If you are already siding 8, and want to add more 4 meekstone, prepare to play your deck as a control deck. xD

Yeah, a really BAD control deck, hahaha.

Now let me open up another line of discussion for the sideboard, as these cards have been on my mind:

Hidden Gibbons
Eyes of the Wisent

Thoughts about these?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Eyes of the Wisent is only good against control, IMO... and we really don't need anything against control/counters except Shusher.

Hidden Gibbons is a funny card... I liked to play 2 in the main, 2 years ago. It's not only good against counters. It also has this tricks, where the opponent is thinking "If I Bolt / StoP his creature, he gets a 4/4" :tongue: Don't know if its needed in the actual meta, though.


well... nevertheless

I readed the whole thread again, and wanted to gather some Informations... I also test this deck a bit, and the more I play it, the more I think Trollshroud is the way to go to killl your opponent effective. I haven't posted a decklist in a long time, but I was always playing 4 VoV, and it saved my ass countless times. This mad me think of Otters testings in the past, and to increase my land count [I usually play 15] to 17 Lands, to support Troll Ascetics. Troll can stall in games where we miss 1 pumpspell to kill the opponent for example, and we should have enough Trollshroud, to make a kill nearly unstopable for the opponents. Troll can also survive Pyroclasms/Firespouts/etc. if you predict it. I think he is the only cc3 Creature that has the potential to be played in Berserk Stompy.

Let's say something like this for example:

Maindeck:
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Troll Ascetic

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood

17 Snow-Covered Forest

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Gleeful Sabotage

20 Creatures, 20 Pumpspells, 16!!!! Trollshroud possibilities, and still 3 slots open, what do you think?

[Gui]

Eyes of the Wisent is only good against control, IMO... and we really don't need anything against control/counters except Shusher.

Hidden Gibbons is a funny card... I liked to play 2 in the main, 2 years ago. It's not only good against counters. It also has this tricks, where the opponent is thinking "If I Bolt / StoP his creature, he gets a 4/4" :tongue: Don't know if its needed in the actual meta, though.


well... nevertheless

I readed the whole thread again, and wanted to gather some Informations... I also test this deck a bit, and the more I play it, the more I think Trollshroud is the way to go to killl your opponent effective. I haven't posted a decklist in a long time, but I was always playing 4 VoV, and it saved my ass countless times. This mad me think of Otters testings in the past, and to increase my land count [I usually play 15] to 17 Lands, to support Troll Ascetics. Troll can stall in games where we miss 1 pumpspell to kill the opponent for example, and we should have enough Trollshroud, to make a kill nearly unstopable for the opponents. Troll can also survive Pyroclasms/Firespouts/etc. if you predict it. I think he is the only cc3 Creature that has the potential to be played in Berserk Stompy.

Let's say something like this for example:

Maindeck:
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Troll Ascetic

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood

17 Snow-Covered Forest

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Gleeful Sabotage

20 Creatures, 20 Pumpspells, 16!!!! Trollshroud possibilities, and still 3 slots open, what do you think?

Hmmmm... If I recall correctly, Otter's lists had accelerators for Troll, maybe you should add either Noble or ESGs? With 17 Forests, you'll be able to drop Troll by turn 3 ~60% of the time

[Mr. Safety]

Why the Snow-Covered Forests?

I agree with Gui...I would get an accelerator in here.

I would do this:

-1 Troll Ascetic

+4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Sure, Troll Ascetic is worth playing, but I wouldn't play more than 3. I would actually drop the 3rd for another land (18 + ESG will make for explosive starts, and get kicked VoV's online earlier)

[Gui]

In topic, I agree with Mr. Safety, but I'd test Noble instead of Elvish SG first.
Also, from my tests, I believe 20 to be the least amount of pumps I'd use, and would try very hard to use at least 22, specially if already using VoVs, which are slow and hard to combo. Since there are better chances of having a Trollshrouded guy now, I'd probably cut a VoV for a Seal.

On a different topic, I've been testing Wastelands. Not as maindeck, since I believe we need the :g:s for proper function and didn't want to cut other resources for extra lands, but bringing them against any deck that could have it's manabase Jeopardized by it, or decks carrying problematic lands. It is strong, but there is some controversy on whether it should be sideboard material or not. Also on its favor, with them in sideboard, we could support pricey options more easily, like Seeds of Innocences or Krosan Grips, and of course, Troll.

[Mr. Safety]

I like Wasteland in the sideboard...it's basically a 0-cost land destruction spell. You're keeping them off their mana, to a minor extent, so you can get your game on. It seems like it's 'going over to the Dark Side' but it makes sense, probably more sense than something like Meekstone which we've been debating. Meekstone has a potential effect on the game state, Wasteland has a definate effect, as soon as it hits. And if you look at it as essentially a 0-cost LD spell, then you side it in for other spells...therefore actually sidboarding in a BETTER chance of playing higher-cost cards like Grip, Seeds, and actually making Troll Ascetic BETTER. (I'm essentially just re-stating what Gui just said...it's about a METRIC TON of logical information.)

If you play 17-18 lands in the maindeck augmented with 4 Nobles/ESG's, that means you are essentially siding in the potential for 26 mana sources. That opens up A LOT OF OPTIONS. What would your opponent do if you were playing a fast aggro/combo deck...and then switched gears to playing mid-range aggro? Holy crap, that sounds good. This kind of stuff gets available:

Kitchen Finks (holy crap this sounds good, Invigorate + Berserk for 14 damage...and then gain 2 life and get him back. Resistent to non-exile removal also)

Imperious Perfect (along with Vexing Shusher, this could create some mid-range board advantage. Iffy though...)

Tower Above (I've been on the recieving side of this thing...it's tough. It was in standard about 2 years ago though. Still, it's removal when green typically has none. Playing this kind of mid-range card can increase your odds of surviving against a control deck that acually lands their finisher in time to count)

Drove of Elves (another troll-shroud dude)

Kodama of the North Tree (maybe a little too mana intensive at 5)

Garruk Wildspeaker (this guy can be back-breaking in the right matchups)

I'm thinking mostly of a deck that used to get run a lot (Good Stuff) for ideas. Thoughts?

[Gui]

There are are a lot of options when considering a higher mana count... Well, I didn't test Wastelands along with Troll yet, just the standard list. But I caught your point. It could be possible to turn the deck into something like what was done to "Zoo" turning it into "Big Zoo", or Midrange Zoo. Well, that's something to consider, although I belive most should be kept as sideboard options, some techs could be worth trying MD.

I'm still somehow skeptic about Troll Ascetic's inclusion, but a really good player is suggesting that to me, so that I'll have to try it someday ^^

By the way, not trying to be rude or anything, but using [cards ] tag helps when pointing these unknow cards xD

[Mr. Safety]

Sorry! Not sure how to link on this site. I'd be happy to do it if I knew how. Searching site now for an answer.

EDIT:

Here we go, now we're in business!


Kitchen Finks
Imperious Perfect
Tower Above
Drove of Elves
Kodama of the North Tree
Garruk Wildspeaker

[boneclub24]

Hi, avid fan of Stompy here ^^

Just wondering if you have tested/wanted to test any of the following:
Skyshroud Elite
Garruk's Companion
Quirion Ranger
Winter Orb
Rancor

Quirion Ranger + A mana dork can be incredible at getting you ahead, and both are good at getting you ahead while Winter Orb is out.

I haven't used Stompy in competitive legacy, but seeing this discussion makes me want to switch from my Faerie deck ^^

[Mr. Safety]

Hi, avid fan of Stompy here ^^

Just wondering if you have tested/wanted to test any of the following:
Skyshroud Elite
Garruk's Companion
Quirion Ranger
Winter Orb
Rancor

Quirion Ranger + A mana dork can be incredible at getting you ahead, and both are good at getting you ahead while Winter Orb is out.

I haven't used Stompy in competitive legacy, but seeing this discussion makes me want to switch from my Faerie deck ^^

It's pretty much a given that 4 of your pump spells should be Rancor. Definate auto 4-of in my opinion.

Winter Orb is a card I've playtested to a small extent, but it didn't do what I wanted it to do in MOST cases. Think about how many legacy decks can function adequately on 1 land for 2-3 turns, and you'll have your answer to that one. It really isn't worth the slots. Vexing Shusher is a better sideboard option.

Quirion Ranger and mana dorks are, quite frankly, wasted slots. The deck needs to land an evasive threat (troll shroud is our favorite option with Silhana Ledgewalker and Slippery Bogle) and then pump the hell out of it for massive damage. If you're going to use mana acceleration, your only real options are Elvish Spirit Guide or Noble Hierarch. Noble brings exalted, ESG is free.

Skyshroud Elite isn't a bad option at all. It all depends on how many creatures you feel comfortable with. It should be a given that you have Slippery Bogle, Silhana Ledgewalker, and Kavu Predator. Those are key to making the deck function, Kavu Predator for the Invigorate free-play shenanigans.

Garruk's Companion is just not good enough. Think about what you have available at 2 mana: Tarmogoyf, Werebear, Vines of Vastwood. Vines is included in most lists (for good reason) as it can be a great turn 2 play following a turn 1 creature. Threshold isn't hard to hit for this deck allowing Werebear to hit for 4, and he can add mana until then. Easily better than Garruk's Companion. Tarmogoyf is Tarmogoyf...easily the best 2-drop creature (in a vaccuum) in the whole game. Again, the only reason for Kavu Predator over Goyf in Berserk Stompy is for free Invigorates making the guy HUGE. You can attack with KP, toss in Invigorate for free, turning him into a 9/9 trampler on the spot. If you have an open land (which you should) then you play Berserk to hit for 18. It doesn't happen every game, but enough times that it makes your opponent cry. It's one of those situations where you say 'oops, I guess I won'.

[NihilObstat]

Just wondering if you have tested/wanted to test any of the following:
Skyshroud Elite
Garruk's Companion
Quirion Ranger
Winter Orb
Rancor


Hi, not to be mean or anything, but you should read the whole thread through before commenting, all those cards have been thoroughly commented all through these 40 pages ^^


So, just to relax a bit from so many deck possibilities I have something new to talk about.
Since the loss of deckcheck.net two good new deck webs have appeared: http://www.deckcheck.org/ and http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/

The last one is spanish, and as it's quite common here, it has a Berserk Stompy decks thread :)
The other one, I belive more famous and big, deckcheck.org, is german, and I've sent them like 10 e-mails asking them to please create a Berserk category, but I haven't had any response yet, and I'm mad because the old deckcheck had us there :(

What decks databases are you guys currently using?

[paeng4983]

Hi, not to be mean or anything, but you should read the whole thread through before commenting, all those cards have been thoroughly commented all through these 40 pages ^^


So, just to relax a bit from so many deck possibilities I have something new to talk about.
Since the loss of deckcheck.net two good new deck webs have appeared: http://www.deckcheck.org/ and http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/

The last one is spanish, and as it's quite common here, it has a Berserk Stompy decks thread :)
The other one, I belive more famous and big, deckcheck.org, is german, and I've sent them like 10 e-mails asking them to please create a Berserk category, but I haven't had any response yet, and I'm mad because the old deckcheck had us there :(

What decks databases are you guys currently using?

deckcheck.org is the only source that im using.
im trying to create a similar page like those but my
computer-web skills is only that of a kindergarden level.
hehehe, it would take me months before i finish it. :)

going back to the topic, do you think the formula
17 lands + 20 creatures + 23 pump spells would
spell us victory?
what formula do you guys use with your decks?
thanks

:cool:

[NecroYawgmoth]

my old split was 16L-22C-22P, was quite good IMO...

my new one is 17L-23C-20P

I can't think of more than 22 pumpspells because 4 Zerk, Rancor, Invigorate, MooK, and then a 4/2 or 3/3 Split of VoV/Seal [4/2 preffered], is the maximum number I would play.

[Gui]

My current list is 17f-20c-23p, and I like it so far, with 4 VoV and 3 Seal.

I kind of cut Sylvan Library for some tests, and can't decide what to do, but this list with 23 pumps is doing ok, which leads me to the need of further tests. :rolleyes:

I'm using Scrybs instead of Nettles, and been liking them too. Although I miss the 2/2 start sometimes, scrybs are rarely dead, even against tall Goyfs.

Also, I like the increasing in pumps number. I feel that it's somewhat metacall, but seems like the deck is better when we are able to pump-combo more easily.

[Mr. Safety]

Currently using 16L - 24C - 20P

I have found that in too many games my hand is stuffed pull of pump-effects, but I can't land a dude to put them on. Realize also that 4 of my creatures are Elvish Spirit Guides. I have tested removing 1 land for a utility card like Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library, but in all honesty, if the game went long, I was usually dead. I ended up winning some late games, but the players were lousy making some fairly bad assumptions/play errors.

Here are some other cards I've tested out that just didn't work, for one reason or another. DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT use Land Grant. Revealing your hand is just too dangerous.


Keen Sense
Groundbreaker
Land Grant
Dosan the Falling Leaf
Rogue Elephant
Talara's Battalion
Scythe Tiger
Uktabi Drake


For the most part, Keen Sense fails to Engineered Explosives and you absolutely NEED to have it on Silhana Ledgwalker or Slippery Bogle, but Bogle usually gest chump blocked, so you're basically looking at only Ledgewalker as a good target. Groundbreaker fails to ANY spot removal. Land Grant gives your opponent too much information to plan their games. Dosan was decent, but again fails to spot removal. Rogue Elephant has a nice 3/3 body, but sacking your only land so you can't play Rancor wasn't good. Talara's Battalion was useless without Manamorphose. Dedicating 8 slots for a 4/3 creature reliant on teck wasn't smart. Scythe Tiger, while having a Nimble Mongoose type of feel to it, was just a worse Rogue Elephant, because I couldn't pump him up due to shroud. Uktabi Drake made for some great plays if I had the mana to run him big, but I never had the mana to pay the echo cost. Essentially it's just a worse Scryb Sprites, but the haste was decent. If you are looking for something slightly more aggressive than Nettle Sentinel, Uktabi Drake can sometimes work.

[Gui]

From these cards, what I consider mostly playable is Talara's battalion. Sure, you need Manamorphose, and you shoudn't play her as 4-of unless with some cards like Bounty of the Hunt, Vine Dryad, Invigorate and such. But if you fit the 4 Manamorphoses and build your deck proportionally as a 56 cards deck, it does fine. Well, I'm not saying you should use it, as I don't, but that it is possible/playable. Slot dedicated isn't much a problem, since morphose cantrips, and our deck is a pile of 3 kinds of resources where all do the same thing.

Keen sense is possibly playable, I'd like to see it working.

About Sylvan Library, it is useful, but you shouldn't think of it as a mid-late game card. On the contrary, to be honest. I think it has to be played early to get its full strength, and then you dig a lot of resources to end the game faster. My first intention with it was to fix the Berserk-dependancy our deck got, and it does that well, as in: 1st turn Bogle, 2nd turn Sylvan, 3rd turn -> reach the 11-12th card of your library, most likely drop the 3rd land, pump your Bogle to win. This is the "best case scenario", but not that uncommon. Also, next turn is 13th to 15th, with an amazing almost 70% chance that you will find a zerk.

[lyracian]

my old split was 16L-22C-22P, was quite good IMO...

my new one is 17L-23C-20P

Hello,
I picked up three 'zerks from last years FtV so am looking at putting this deck together for the wife.
Could you tell me what creatures are you using please? I assume 4x Bogle,Pit-skull,ledgewalker & Predator. What are the other six?

[Mr. Safety]

Hello,
I picked up three 'zerks from last years FtV so am looking at putting this deck together for the wife.
Could you tell me what creatures are you using please? I assume 4x Bogle,Pit-skull,ledgewalker & Predator. What are the other six?

Playable options:

Nettle Sentinel
Skyshroud Elite
Elvish Spirit Guide
Scryb Sprites

[NecroYawgmoth]

my list is still:

Maindeck:
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Troll Ascetic

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood

17 Snow-Covered Forest

3 open slots

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Gleeful Sabotage


Maybe I cut a Troll and play 4 Scrybs/Nettle because I am missing the first turn drops... 8 aren't enough

[ZeinVoncy]

As a long time 10-Land Stompy fan, I ask this in all seriousness: Would Infect Berserk Stompy outclass Berserk Stompy? If not, how come? I'm considering shifting my 10-Land Stompy into an Infect Berserk Stompy b/c 10 dmg is just so easy.

[NecroYawgmoth]

It's hard to tell... it always comes to pro and cons...

the 2 hardest cons of Infect Stompy are 1) we weaken our manabase, and 2) We lose Trollshroud -> which is the biggest issue.

Don't get me wrong, We here think Infect deserves A LOT of testing and that it can be the definitive Berserk Stompy way of approach. Infect is a permanent pseudo-Berserk for our critters, and the -1/-1 counters for opposing Tarmogoyfs and such cannot be undervalued.

Trollshroud is just awesomness, but dealing only half of the damage is also very nice. I don't think that VoV only is enough in a Infect build to protect our critters. IMO it's not yet time. We need to wait for other Infect-Critters. Maybe we get good ones, and don't need to play with that junk what's out there atm [except Plague Stinger & Ichorclaw Myr]. Well... Let the time do it's things... -> just wait for new printings, and then we can decide if Infect is the way to go or not

[ZeinVoncy]

My 10-Land has always been pretty much casual (it could be taken to tournaments, I'm just a bigger fan of Rock), so I do not know the experience of facing opposing competitive decks. I last knew that Berserk Stompy can average turn 2-4 kills, has that changed? Are the creatures that easier removed nowadays, or are the decks just stalled long enough to not be a threat?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Turn 2 kill is very very lucky... usually its T3... lets say T4, that's more true...

Problem is without Trollshroud, we pump our creatures to Fatality-damage and then they just got removed... You'll find StoP, Lightning Bolt or other removal in nearly ever deck, and it exists more good removal, nowadays [PtE for Example]

[paeng4983]

As a long time 10-Land Stompy fan, I ask this in all seriousness: Would Infect Berserk Stompy outclass Berserk Stompy? If not, how come? I'm considering shifting my 10-Land Stompy into an Infect Berserk Stompy b/c 10 dmg is just so easy.

hmmm... , infect berserk stompy,
i understood it as adding the infect mechanic with this deck.
:)
help me guys with this,
let's name card/s that give infect to a creature:
-tainted strike
-Grafted Exoskeleton

what else?
thanks...

here's my current list that i have:

5 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 windswepth heath
2 scryb ranger
3 slippery bogle
3 skarggan
3 jungle lion
3 nettle sentinel
2 scryb sprites
4 silhana ledgewalker
4 kavu predator
3 skyshroud cutter
4 invigorate
4 berserk
4 might of old krosa
4 seal of primordium
4 rancor

SB
3 reverent silence
3 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
4 rushwood legate
3 Vov

:)

[boneclub24]

That's not to say Black is required... there are enough infectors to make Mono-G, but I would think we should wait for the next set before trying it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Nonono... there are only 3 Infect-Critters if we stay monogreen which are [in order of awesomeness] Ichorclaw Myr, Necropede and Blight Mamba. Its not a good idea to play Infect critters with non-Infect crittes in the deck, because they play differently.

Well, it's stated above from me and you. Just wait what Mirrodin Besieged will bring us.

[Tru3z3rox]

I've been testing the G/B infect version of stompy and I really like it. It is quite powerful averaging turn 3 wins with wins turn 2 being common as well.

I think plague stinger is a must in the deck. I've been converted from mono G. The infector I am least happy with is necropede though.

[Gui]

Well, there are differences between them, and it comes to their advantages and disadivantages. I've posted a list at "Pump Infect" thread, and I consider that list "playable". It's not extensively tested, but it is faster than Berserk Stompy. The problem with it is that they got less protection, its strategy is countered by removals and counters makes it slower. Also, it's creatures got worse evasion, and are less able to put aggro-pressure, although Rancor helps it. IMO, Berserk Stompy is still more reliable, but Pump-Infect is already playable.

[NihilObstat]

Keen sense is possibly playable, I'd like to see it working.
About Sylvan Library, it is useful, but you shouldn't think of it as a mid-late game card. On the contrary, to be honest. I think it has to be played early to get its full strength, and then you dig a lot of resources to end the game faster.

Gui, I don't know why, but I always agree with you in everything ^^

I've been thinking about Keen sense, and I believe that it might be a "playable" card if we ran 4x Silhana and 4x Scryb Sprites, so instead of playing Sylvan Library which takes a turn to start acting and costs 2 mana, this could be a faster solution, maybe not as powerful, but we might see, I'll test it a bit.
Silvan is working fine for me, although I'm runni



On another topic: I'm running 16L-20C-24P, but I think that I'll add a land, for game 2 and 3. I need to keep 24 pumps (including 2 Silvan Lib), because more and more I see VoV and Seal as must be, and if you think that 20 or 21 creatures aren't enough that's because you don't play 4 VoV, try it, it works ;)



On another topic yet: Infect stompy doesn't do it yet in competitive talking. Any kind of removal kills them. I suggested I friend of mine who plays it to run 4x Vov and 4x Avoid fate for it's the only way I see to play Infect. I mean, sure, any infecter plus Invigorate is almost lethal, but a good assassin needs to watch out his back or to be invisible..........

[NecroYawgmoth]

I also think that Keen Sense is a good idea with 4 Scrybs and 4 Ledgewalkers... the question is "what to cut?" This deck has sadly no room for stuff like that... please tell me about your testings, as I was also thinking to this card quite often in the past.

Also long testing seem to show that generally Scryb > Nettle cuz of evasion...

I finally decided to kick 1 Troll,a nd play this list right now:

Maindeck:
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Troll Ascetic

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood

17 Snow-Covered Forest

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Gleeful Sabotage

4 VoV is a MUST imo, because I can't tell often enough Trollshroud is, but I don't see Seal as a must play card since VoV is printed.

100% agree that Infect Stompy is only playable with 4 VoV AND 4 Fate, because we lose ur protection, otherwise

[Tru3z3rox]

Gui, I don't know why, but I always agree with you in everything ^^

I've been thinking about Keen sense, and I believe that it might be a "playable" card if we ran 4x Silhana and 4x Scryb Sprites, so instead of playing Sylvan Library which takes a turn to start acting and costs 2 mana, this could be a faster solution, maybe not as powerful, but we might see, I'll test it a bit.
Silvan is working fine for me, although I'm runni



On another topic: I'm running 16L-20C-24P, but I think that I'll add a land, for game 2 and 3. I need to keep 24 pumps (including 2 Silvan Lib), because more and more I see VoV and Seal as must be, and if you think that 20 or 21 creatures aren't enough that's because you don't play 4 VoV, try it, it works ;)



On another topic yet: Infect stompy doesn't do it yet in competitive talking. Any kind of removal kills them. I suggested I friend of mine who plays it to run 4x Vov and 4x Avoid fate for it's the only way I see to play Infect. I mean, sure, any infecter plus Invigorate is almost lethal, but a good assassin needs to watch out his back or to be invisible..........

4 Avoid fate is not necessary. Removal is brutal against that deck, but in a meta full of combo there is not that much removal floating around. It is true that berserk stompy is more consistent, but also a good 2 turns slower. With infect stompy you can afford to slow roll them, because you only need to deal 10 poison counters. However the huge negative I find about infect stompy is that I basically scoop to an active jitte....

[wilson]

hey, i've recently picked up Berserk Stompy, and its been lots of fun to play :D
refreshing after counter wars and endless top-spinning x_X

i am running this list:

17 Forest

4 Scryb Sprites
3 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker

4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Keen Sense

i think the Keen Senses are really good, you always find a Critter that can make use of it.one just really have to be careful about trading 2 to one..
but if they stick a few rounds, card advantage will normally win the game.

well, it works good for me but as i said i just picked up the deck so i am not very expierienced.. maybe long time players come to another conclusion.

because the deck is rly gr8, i will take it to my local legacy tourney.
therefore, could you give me a rough analysis of the matchups? i dont know how up to date the matchups in the primer are...
i mostly need merfolk, goblin, dredge, dreadstill, bant aggro, G/W Sur.
well mostly merfolk, last top8 was 4 fishies .. urghs. hate that smell.

also i guess my mainboard looks kinda solid?! any tips for sideboarding?

would be glad if you could help me a little^^

also, first post.. hello evrybody :D

[lyracian]

For sideboarding I would look at the previous page

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt - Deals with graveyard decks like Dredge
4 Mindbreak Trap - Stops Combo decks
4 Vexing Shusher - Helps against control decks, and gives you an extra creature
3 Gleeful Sabotage - Kills Challice, Counterbalance, Stax and other problem cards like moat, Jitte

As for your deck I would drop one Senses to get the fourth Pit-Skulk in there. 19 Creatures seems too few.

[wilson]

ok ty, ill do -1 sense +1 skulk.

Perhaps ill try to fit the 4th Sense in another slot as it often comes in handy drawing force of wills. what do you think about that?

thanks for help, and gr8 thread =) very useful

[NihilObstat]

4 Avoid fate is not necessary.

I suggested that to him, because we played first round in a tourney together and he was really positive about winning the tournament with it, and I said, sure it's a fast and unexpected deck, but you'll see how you die to removal, not against me, but 70% of the rest of the players (which is a big number).
After the tournament he said: You were right, I lost 3 games to spot removal (although he had 4x VoV). So, what should I do? and I suggested Avoid Fate and Autumn's veil, ok, maybe not as maindeck options, but definitely 4x Avoid Fate in sideboard.


To WILSON: I'm happy that someone else thinks good of Keen Sense, let us know about your testing ;)

About matchup analysis, I believe that Merfolk are really doable, and winnable. I usually never have a problem with them, specially when Vexing hits the board, just remember to side in some anti artifacts (Gleeful preferably) against the annoying Jitte, but I believe it's a good pairing. Just remember to play around Daze, in the first game. You can slow yourself down a little in the first game, and think about Cursecatcher, I sometimes end up forgetting about him and he counters something... annoying ^^

Goblins are easy as most aggro decks. Seeing that you run Scryb they should be even easier, make sure she doesn't die to Incinerator. Try to chump block with non-flier and win with your fliers ;)

Dredge as with most decks is winnable if you draw graveyard hate. I recommend mixed against them so 2 Tormods 2 Ravenous Trap, 2 Traps 2 Farie Macabre, 2 Tormods 2 Relic of Progenitus, or even 1 of each. If Dredge is big in your meta, try fitting 5 or 6 slots against them, although we can outrun them sometimes if they don't get good hands.

Dreadstill, I would say sideboard, maybe running 1x Viridian Zealot maindeck or 1 Gleeful sabotage.

And I haven't played against Suvi yet so no idea. Enchantment destroy and aim for the Fittest ^^ Fauna Shaman will be a problem though.

Good Luck, let us know how things are going ;)

[paeng4983]

i dont know nihilo but for me, with this set up, keen is not a good addition.
your berserk stumpy's designed has river boa, selkie or other mid range wincon, then maybe
adding keen to it would be a nice idea.
i have tried using keen seen in a gw mid range berserk stumpy before (just before noble came out)
wherein my creatures were, riverboa, mireboa at the non basic dryad 2/1...

so with wilson's design, i'd rather see a +/+ spell rather than keens.
:)

btw, we just had our philcoa yr ending legacy last night and i used
etennie's (magic-style) current list. so strong that it doesnt need
3 - 4 pump spells to win. :)
exalted abilities were awasome! and after i dealt the damage, just before leaving the combat phase,
i'll fling the big fella to his face. hahaha i'd done that a couple of times.
also, i've done two 2nd turn kills. wow! 1st via wild nactl then inv then 2 berserks and
the other one, via 1st turn kavu then 2nd turn noble dropped a land then
invi invi then zerk on my attacking kavu.
priceless
:)

[Mr. Safety]

I'm still scratching my head on the Snow-Covered Forests...???

As far as Keen Sense goes, you would have to cut pump spells in order to squeeze it in. I wouldn't use more than 1-2, it's functionally just a different alternative to Sylvan Library.

4x Slipper Bogle
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Skarrgan Pit-SKulk
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
4x Kavu Predator
4x Rancor
4x Invigorate
4x Might of Old Krosa
4x Berserk
4x Vines of Vastwood
2x Seal of Strength
2x Keen Sense
16x Forest


That might work, you have 16L - 20C - 22P - 2 utility. STILL, I would be really skeptical about using only 16 lands without Noble Hierarch or Elvish Spirit Guide. There's a reason my tagname is Mr. Safety, I play it safe when it comes to mana source count.

I've been thinking about Troll Ascetic, and I think if you're going to spend 3 mana on a creature, maybe Eternal Witness may be playable. It would get your creature count a little higher and you could drop the utility draw altogether with Keen Sense/Sylvan Lybrary. How awesome would it be to get an Invigorate back and play it for free the same turn?

[NecroYawgmoth]

oh man...

since I posted that I play Troll Ascetics, you all are thinking about other creatures... I don't think, any other cc3 creatures will improve the deck... Troll is ONLY there because of Regenerate AND Trollshroud.

I'd like to see Keen Sense in a Scryb Sprites / Ledgewalker / Trollshroud build but the space is miising =/

Snow-covered Forests are super-secret-ninja-jedi-tech to confuse opponents, and every 10th person is asking: "why snow?" =P=P=P

[lyracian]

Snow-covered Forests are super-secret-ninja-jedi-tech to confuse opponents, and every 10th person is asking: "why snow?" =P=P=PWell you might confuse an opponent into thinking that you have something in your deck that you do not...

Keen Senses seems to be a win more card. You do not get any extra cards to use in the attack phase the turn you cast it since you will not be drawing until damage is dealt. It would be great on Ledgewalker, but I think a bit weak elsewhere. Library seems better to me since it lets you dig.

[Gui]

I think Scryb is probably better than Nettle right now. And with Keen Sense, Scryb is definetly better.

[NihilObstat]

i dont know nihilo but for me, with this set up, keen is not a good addition.
I'm not saying it is the greatest addition or that we should all play it. I just wanted to hear results, that's all, since I don't have much time to test lately :(


To MR.SAFETY:
You can always run Scrying sheets (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/149.html) or Mouth of Ronom (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/148.html). To either draw extra or deal better damage than with Hornet Sting (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/181.html) in mono-green, hehe, just kidding ;)

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not saying it is the greatest addition or that we should all play it. I just wanted to hear results, that's all, since I don't have much time to test lately :(


To MR.SAFETY:
You can always run Scrying sheets (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/149.html) or Mouth of Ronom (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/148.html). To either draw extra or deal better damage than with Hornet Sting (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/181.html) in mono-green, hehe, just kidding ;)

Boy, I'm glad you said you were just kidding. Holy moly, all of those cards are just BAD, haha. The only reason would be the fake-out factor, which would only work for 1 game and then they'd clue in. Still, I don't think it's really anything that will work on anyone but a scrub/bad player.

The one deck I saw Keen Sense work in was a G/B/u deck that used Silhana Ledgewalker and Troll Ascetic (along with man-lands) as it's offense, and the traditional Force of Will + Daze + Brainstorm package. It was essentially Tempo Thresh...but without the threshold and Keen Sense was the draw engine instead of Bob + Tops. It worked ok (well, I lost to it twice, lol, this was on MWS, so it doesn't really count anyways)

[NihilObstat]

Boy, I'm glad you said you were just kidding. Holy moly, all of those cards are just BAD, haha.

Hey, I wouldn't say they are that bad. It Scrying sheets used to be very used in it's T2 and extended, although certainly not legacy, but it's one of the only possible ways to draw in mono-green and specially in mono-white.

But yeah, it's ninja tech and hey, snow-lands are pretty. Specially the old ones ^^

Also, the idea you posted about Eternal Witness doesn't sound that crazy to me, she is card advantage in this deck which is awesome, cause we don't have, and she can recycle Mook, a countered Rancor, Vov, Zerk, well anything!!! So she is card advantage who hits for 2, and picks what advantage to get. Maybe playing 1 or 2next to 1 or 2 Troll in a 18 lands version could be great. I hate not being able to test. MWS doesn't work of Machintosh, and I don't have time to test irl.

[Mr. Safety]

Hmmm...I'll get back to you about the Mac-problem with MWS. A good friend of mine overcame that obstacle, I'll ask him how he did it.

Yeah, Witness in an 18 land version sounds good. I also really like the Troll Ascetic idea in a 'bigger' version of this deck. It would be what Big Zoo is to zoo, only this would be 'Big Stompy'.

Just throwing out a list:

22 Creatures
4x Ledgewalker
4x Predator
4x Bogle
4x Pit-Skulk
2x Troll Ascetic
2x Eternal Witness
2x Noble Hierarch/Elvish Spirit Guide

20 Pump Spells
4x VoV
4x MooK
4x Rancor
4x Invigorate
4x Berserk

18 Forest

You wouldn't need Sylvan Library because of your Witness bringing back stuff from the graveyard. Both are susceptable to countermagic, but Witness has the added bonus of having a 2/1 body as well as bringing back a cheap/free pump spell to hand, usable immediately. I would use/playtest this list if I was going to see a CounterTop or control heavy environment, as the added 3 mana spells can dodge CounterTop as well as being able to play the mid-range beatdown game vs. aggro decks that rely on removal to get their dudes through. The Witness/mana dork/Troll ratio could be endlessly played around with, I just popped in 2x of each for a starting point.

[Gui]

I believe Eternal Witness to be a bad card for us, and I'll tell why: Her 3 mana cast cost is an advantage only when someone got countertop/chalice online and we are lucky that he can't counter her AND has no tarmogoyf to ruin her, since countertop/chalice decks already can foil our Berserk plan easily.
A 2/1 vanilla that returns a card to hand has nothing the deck currently demands: It is not a midgame creature, it won't help you combo by either having evasion -or- protection, and isn't even granted to be a pump, since you'd need to use the pump, then cast her to return and, only then, be able to recast.

I can understand Troll. Troll has power 3, which is not great, but OK. Troll won't be point-removed, and can protect itself from Firespout-like mass removals, and is a midgame creature that can stall Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquary's.

Eternal Witness will only turn the deck into something it isn't supposed to be doing in first place.

If you want a 3cc creature, and I believe troll should be it if that's the case, even Cradle Guard is better than E.W., in my opinion.

LMK if I'm wrong, but my guess is that she's going to stall you more than get otherwise unreachable wins.


I'm making a good amount of argumentation on that simply for the way the idea started. There are countless amount of green 3cc creatures out there, and our deck is know to get any 2/1 vanilla to the 20+/x tier, but that doesn't mean any creature is usable here. Before you start testing the most recent Grizzly Bear around, think about some situations in which they would be better than what we got, which will usually involve being Big for cheap, having evasion and/or protections.

[Khell]

Any idea on how a Berserk Stompy can defeat a Storm deck with Tendrils as the finisher? Krosan Grip perhaps?

[Gui]

Any idea on how a Berserk Stompy can defeat a Storm deck with Tendrils as the finisher? Krosan Grip perhaps?

You can use either Mindbreak Trap, or Chalice of the Void @0. There's also Guttural Response, which is useful against cantrips, enters against counterspells, and is way better against High Tide, and there are lots of stuff if you splash. If you are playing against Ad Nauseam, then you should rush their lifepoints as soon as you figure that out. If you know they run Ill-Gotten Gains, you can use Tormod's Crypt. The most reliable is to side-out 2cc creatures against them, and try to pump and attack with a creature at least once.

[Tru3z3rox]

Any idea on how a Berserk Stompy can defeat a Storm deck with Tendrils as the finisher? Krosan Grip perhaps?

Usually you're fast enough to race them. The Ad Nauseum version is easiest as you can just do a maximum amount of damage to them before they go off to ensure that damage isn't lethal.

The doomsday version you just need to kill as fast as possible.


The deck I would really be worried about is anything containing Iona/Blazing Archon. If that is in your meta you should run slaughter pact.

[Mr. Safety]

@Gui: yeah, you make great points. If you're looking for mid-range, make it count. Troll Ascetic is the only good option. Drove of Elves has the potential to be bigger, but does NOT have the built in regeneration, and it's conditional. I'm letting you know, YOU'RE NOT WRONG, haha.

Let me open up some sideboard options, seeing as how the maindeck is really just 'splitting hairs' over minor changes.

Autumn's Veil
Guttural Response
Mindbreak Trap
Baloth Cage Trap
Summoning Trap

[lyracian]

I like the idea of Summoning Trap against Counterbalance and control decks. Although I could just seeing it getting hard countered. I think Baloth Trap has the problem of you being in a situation where you have two mana and the opponent has played an artefact. Without acceleration I am not sure the timing of this will work except against a very narrow range of decks. Do either give a benefit over Gleeful Sabotage?

Mindbreak Trap I think is going to be needed just to have a chance of stopping combo decks for a turn or two.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, the one that had the most promise was Summoning Trap. We would NEVER hardcast it, it would only be in response to someone slinging Force of Will/Daze at us or a Counterbalance activation.

The pros:

1) it's FREE meaning you are cheating on cost just like control players cheat on cost with FoW/Daze

2) It will most likely replace the dude you just lost to a counterspell, meaning you are STILL putting pressure onto your opponent. It would be awesome to hit a creature with troll-shroud too.

3) It's a dirty trick, and it's about time Berserk Stompy had a dirty trick up it's sleave, hahaha.

4) Did I mention that it will get played for FREE?

The cons:

1) it's useless against any deck besides a control deck

2) Drawing one in the mid-game when you're trying to top-deck a pump spell FTW will be oh so dissapointing.

Thoughts?

[lyracian]

I think the real weakness (other than top decking) is nothing stops the trap being countered as well. Vexing Shusher guarantees a creature against blue decks.
Against Bant with 3 Daze, 4 Spell Snare, 4 Force of Will & 3 Spell Pierce which is going to help more?

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, since this is sort of against the very essence of this topic, but, I see nowhere else that would be as good a fit, so, whatever.

If you were to take the Berserks out of Berserk Stompy, would you replace them with? I'm trying to make a budget mono-green stompy deck and aside from the Berserks, Berserk Stompy looks like a perfect shell too work with.

Hence, you can see why I was bit reluctant to ask this, as this thread is sort of called BERSERK Stompy, and removing the Berserks, well, makes it no longer Berserk Stompy.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, since this is sort of against the very essence of this topic, but, I see nowhere else that would be as good a fit, so, whatever.

If you were to take the Berserks out of Berserk Stompy, would you replace them with? I'm trying to make a budget mono-green stompy deck and aside from the Berserks, Berserk Stompy looks like a perfect shell too work with.

Hence, you can see why I was bit reluctant to ask this, as this thread is sort of called BERSERK Stompy, and removing the Berserks, well, makes it no longer Berserk Stompy.

If you're working on a budget, these are your options:

1) Just put in 4x Giant Growth or 4x Seal of Strength in place of Berserk.

2) I strongly engourage you to play 20 lands and AT LEAST 2x Sylvan Library, or if you're REALLY on a budget, Harmonize. This will make sure you draw into enough pump spells to finish them off.

NOW, if you were inclined to add in red, you could essentially fill the gap with burn like Lightning Bolt as well as Assault Strobe, and Fatal Frenzy.

Good luck!

EDIT: Manamorphose and Talara's Battalion are also options (played together) and Viashino Slaughtermaster

[paeng4983]

If you're working on a budget
here's what i can suggest:
lands
16 forest

creature
4 nettle sentinel
4 kavu predator
3 skysroud cutter
4 silhana ledgewalker
3 scryb sprites
4 slippery bogle
2 sakura elder-tribe

pump spell
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
4 seal of strength
4 g.growth
4 rancor

SB:
4 fog
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 rushwood legate
3 naturalize


and another one

lands
20 forest

4 (that cat with shroud 3/2, sac a forest when it comes into play.from zendikar i believe)
2 rouge elephant
3 harvest wurm
4 skargan pit skulk
4 silhana ledgewalker
4 nettle sentinel
4 llanowar elves
4 bogle

pump
4 g.growth
4 seal of strenght

other spells
2 hurricane
1 fog

SB
3 fog
4 vines of vastwood
4 rushwood legate
4 naturalize

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, since this is sort of against the very essence of this topic, but, I see nowhere else that would be as good a fit, so, whatever.

If you were to take the Berserks out of Berserk Stompy, would you replace them with? I'm trying to make a budget mono-green stompy deck and aside from the Berserks, Berserk Stompy looks like a perfect shell too work with.

Hence, you can see why I was bit reluctant to ask this, as this thread is sort of called BERSERK Stompy, and removing the Berserks, well, makes it no longer Berserk Stompy.

I played a budget build for a while that just replaced Berserk with another pump spell. From my experience though, this deck is very very boring without Berserks... This might sound like odd advice, but if possible I would make just about anything else on a budget than Berserk Stompy without Berserk. Not based on power, but based on overall fun factor.

[paeng4983]

Yeah, the one that had the most promise was Summoning Trap.

4) Did I mention that it will get played for FREE?



i think this one is useless in this deck
because most of our creatures would look
like clowns if you'll do it the trap's way.
:)

[Gui]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, since this is sort of against the very essence of this topic, but, I see nowhere else that would be as good a fit, so, whatever.

If you were to take the Berserks out of Berserk Stompy, would you replace them with? I'm trying to make a budget mono-green stompy deck and aside from the Berserks, Berserk Stompy looks like a perfect shell too work with.

Hence, you can see why I was bit reluctant to ask this, as this thread is sort of called BERSERK Stompy, and removing the Berserks, well, makes it no longer Berserk Stompy.

Yes, the thread is supposed to discuss the Estabilished version of the deck, but I don't see how that would hurt to ask for an advice like that here once :P

Without Berserk, I'd focus on Aggro. I'd run way less pumps than I do right now, remove Bogle in favor of Jungle Lion or some 2/x creature, add more Creatures, and run Gleeful maindeck. I'd focus on combat-oriented pumps, switching MoOK for Giant Growth, and use a full set of Vines of Vastwood. If I could, I'd certainly add Wastelands, although I realize that they are less budget. I'd most certainly use Manamorphose + Talara, depending on techs used (Vine Dryad, Bounty of the Hunt or maybe a couple of Land Grant, although they are bad, synergy could be worth)
A good card that can be used too is Elvish Spirit Guide, ofc.

Here's a sample list (A list I remember using before having berserks, modifyed for less budget)

// 17 Manasources
15 Forest
2 Land Grant

// 23 Creatures
3 Vine Dryad
2 Jungle Lion
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
2 Talara's Battalion

// 21 Other
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
3 Giant Growth
3 Manamorphose
2 Gleeful Sabotage


It's not higly tested (this one is not even slightly tested to be honest), but could be a start. Talara is "combo" with manamorphose, Dryad, Land Grant and Invigorate, besides the 1cc, so I think she's fine with 3 morphose. That list can win against good decks if you play it right, I assure you that (maybe not the winning rate of VV+Sur, but ok for a budget deck =P).

Edit: PS: Btw, the name Stompy was first used for a Green deck using Creature beatdown, so, a Berserkless Stompy is just "Stompy" ^^

[Masamune]

Evasive way vs. Strong creatures depends accordin meta I guess, however I hate handle with a single Engenered Explosives when I go with BS full of Trollshorouded stuffs :S
I lost some games when opp plays EE and Pernicious (clean all of then ><)

[Mr. Safety]

Another way to go the budget route is to simply 'add' to what Gui said, and run more creatures. Troll Ascetic x4 would be smart, and maybe Isao, Enlightened Bushi as well. That would give you a whopping 12 creatures with Troll-shroud and also 6 creatures with built in regeneration. You could get clever and use Runed Stalactite as one of your pump spells, maybe 3 of them, making Isao even better. If you use Time of Need, you could essentially set the whole deal up. At that point, I'd use something like Gaea's Anthem in place of 2-3 pump spells, too. The whole idea at that point would be to get Troll-shroud dudes on the table, pump them with static effects, and use your instant speed pump spells (Vines of Vastwood, Giant Growth) as your finishing spells.

At that point, you're running something I would call 'Troll Shroud Stompy' rather than berserk stompy. One more troll shroud creature would be Drove of Elves, then you would have 16 troll shroud creatures and ways to make sure they stick on the table with regeneration and pump them FTW. Sounds fun to me...

[Masamune]

Another way to go the budget route is to simply 'add' to what Gui said, and run more creatures. Troll Ascetic x4 would be smart, and maybe Isao, Enlightened Bushi as well. That would give you a whopping 12 creatures with Troll-shroud and also 6 creatures with built in regeneration. You could get clever and use Runed Stalactite as one of your pump spells, maybe 3 of them, making Isao even better. If you use Time of Need, you could essentially set the whole deal up. At that point, I'd use something like Gaea's Anthem in place of 2-3 pump spells, too. The whole idea at that point would be to get Troll-shroud dudes on the table, pump them with static effects, and use your instant speed pump spells (Vines of Vastwood, Giant Growth) as your finishing spells.

At that point, you're running something I would call 'Troll Shroud Stompy' rather than berserk stompy. One more troll shroud creature would be Drove of Elves, then you would have 16 troll shroud creatures and ways to make sure they stick on the table with regeneration and pump them FTW. Sounds fun to me...

Hm... maybe it will work, but IMO the higher converted mana cost makes run much more lands maind deck wich let it slow a little

[Masamune]

Another way to go the budget route is to simply 'add' to what Gui said, and run more creatures. Troll Ascetic x4 would be smart, and maybe Isao, Enlightened Bushi as well. That would give you a whopping 12 creatures with Troll-shroud and also 6 creatures with built in regeneration. You could get clever and use Runed Stalactite as one of your pump spells, maybe 3 of them, making Isao even better. If you use Time of Need, you could essentially set the whole deal up. At that point, I'd use something like Gaea's Anthem in place of 2-3 pump spells, too. The whole idea at that point would be to get Troll-shroud dudes on the table, pump them with static effects, and use your instant speed pump spells (Vines of Vastwood, Giant Growth) as your finishing spells.

At that point, you're running something I would call 'Troll Shroud Stompy' rather than berserk stompy. One more troll shroud creature would be Drove of Elves, then you would have 16 troll shroud creatures and ways to make sure they stick on the table with regeneration and pump them FTW. Sounds fun to me...

Hm... maybe it will work, but IMO the higher converted mana cost makes run much more lands maind deck wich let it slow a little

[NihilObstat]

As soon as I get the decklist I will report a 1st place for Berserk stompy in a 19 player tournament.

The guy came last time playing Ghazbán ogre (http://magiccards.info/ch/en/37.html), Wild dogs (http://magiccards.info/query?q=wild+dogs&v=card&s=cname), and a couple other "awesome" creatures, and unfortunately he didn't place too well...

Lately I'm playing elves combo, so I lent him my cards, specially creatures and sideboard. He had the rest, and he won today :)

I'll just edit this message when I have the list, but he wasn't playing anything too special:

I gave him Sylvan Library and Scryb Sprites and told him to play them, but I don't know if he did.

Side:
Vexing, Reverent silence, Seeds of innocence, Gravehate, Gleeful sabotage.

His pairings were Enchantress, Merfolk, Vampires, ...

[Green.Rocket]

Hello Everybody! This is my first post (Just new Member here), and I wanted to share my decklist:

Creatures (20):

4x Rogue Elephant
4x Skyshroud Elite
4x Kavu Predator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf

Spells (24):

4x Giant Growth
4x Seal of Strength
4x Invigorate
4x Berserk
4x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal

Lands (16):

4x Verdant Catacobs
3x Bayou
9x Forest

At First glance you will notice some irregularities with the average list, like Rogue Elephant, Lotus Petal and Dark Confidant (you can also talk about Tarmogoyf and Land Grant). This list is not as quick as the rest, but is more estable; Lotus petal is taking the place of the traditionally used ESP, with the advantage of Increasing Tarmogoyf's power. Ive had first turns with a 3/4 Tarmogoyf by my own, thanks to Lotus, Fetch and Land Grant. Except for Tribals and PW, my list have the other 6 different cards to make the Tarmogoyf stronger (6/7).

Ive won 3 times in 2nd turn in tournaments, too many more in 3rd and 4th, but from a total of 30 matches (maybe more). This decklist dont depend on the Berserks too much as others. It hates control and combo decks, as you can imagine. Black control decks are a terrible match againt Stompy. One of the best cards Im using against those decks, is Leyline of Sanctity (it's also good against a few more decks, particullary combo ones). Krosan Grip is a must, I always run 4 copies of it too. The rest depend on the metagame.

So, I think there is no much more to say. Forgive my English, and have a good day :)

[NihilObstat]

At First glance you will notice some irregularities with the average list.
It hates control and combo decks, as you can imagine. Black control decks are a terrible match against Stompy.

All of your card choices have been widely discussed, so I'll just suggest you to try Trollshroud creatures, or at least, specially in your list, 4x Vines of Vastwood should be maindeck.

Add 4x Rancor there, because what's the point of having a 6/7 Tarmo or 9/9 Kavu who gets blocked by a 1/1 and doesn't do trample damage... Really take out the Giant growth and add Rancor, it's our best card after Berserk, and quite close to it.

I also have to say that this deck should NOT fear control. Take out Land Grants and play Vexing Shusher in your sideboard and you'll just breakfast blue easily.

Also don't obsess about Tarmogoyf, playing mediocre cards just to make him big. You can only play 4 of him and we only draw 1 card per turn, you won't always play it, so don't play all around him.

We have previously also agreed that monoblack is a bad pairing, but Trollshroud will help a little bit, but if they start with dark ritual, thoughtseize, hymn to tourach it's likely an autowin for them.

Good luck, and believe us when we all play Rancor, Vines of Vastwood, and don't have Land Grant.

[Winsom]

I played a relatively inexpensive white green version of this a week ago and took 3rd out of 15. I was really impressed considering I own zero goyfs, only 3 berserks and 1 dual land.

I won 3 matches out of 4. I lost to a merfolk deck that had FoW, Dazes, a couple Jittes, and was able to splash Perish. I won game one. Perish destroyed me in games 2 and 3. I was able to naturalize his Jittes (my sideboard).

I do not know what I should do against Perish ? I'm considering Hyena Umbra in place of the Sword of Light and Shadow. Not sure if I can fit in multiples of Boar Umbra at cost 3, although that would be nice.

I was able to defeat a reanimator deck because he didn't block with enough toughness in game 2 and my berserk brought him to zero life. His blocking was limited because I had a Sword of Light and Shadow equipped.

The Kavu Predator was my "big" creature. He worked really well with my 10 life-based spells. My tactic was to play a pridemage or garruk companion as bait for a removal. Then I'd play my Kavu Predator and hopefully keep him around.


SPELLS: 24 (39%)

3 Berserk
4 Might of Krosa
4 Invigorate
2 Seal of Strength
3 Rancor
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Condemn

CREATURES: 19 (31%)

3 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Garruk's Companion
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Troll Ascetic

LANDS: 18 (30%)

7 Forest
1 Plains
1 Evolving Wilds
2 Grasslands
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Graypelt Refuge
1 Pendellhaven

CARDS: 61

I'm casual tournament player in that I typically no longer buy card singles that cost $6 or more. I try to use "old stuff" from my collection and then purchase inexpensive singles to build a playable deck. This thread was an excellent inspiration for me because almost everything is inexpensive to buy and I already owned 2 Berserk and 1 Savannah.

I bought 1 Berserk for $27, two fetch lands for $9 each, and all of the deck's creatures (minus Tamgoyf) for lump sum < $10. Years ago I had bought or collected all of the Instants and Rancors for less than 40 cents each.

Thank you The Source. This is the second Legacy Tournament that Ive played in recent times. I did not think my collection and budget would have allowed for a competitive white/green deck.

[Mr. Safety]

Hello Everybody! This is my first post (Just new Member here), and I wanted to share my decklist:

Creatures (20):

4x Rogue Elephant
4x Skyshroud Elite
4x Kavu Predator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf

Spells (24):

4x Giant Growth
4x Seal of Strength
4x Invigorate
4x Berserk
4x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal

Lands (16):

4x Verdant Catacobs
3x Bayou
9x Forest

At First glance you will notice some irregularities with the average list, like Rogue Elephant, Lotus Petal and Dark Confidant (you can also talk about Tarmogoyf and Land Grant). This list is not as quick as the rest, but is more estable; Lotus petal is taking the place of the traditionally used ESP, with the advantage of Increasing Tarmogoyf's power. Ive had first turns with a 3/4 Tarmogoyf by my own, thanks to Lotus, Fetch and Land Grant. Except for Tribals and PW, my list have the other 6 different cards to make the Tarmogoyf stronger (6/7).

Ive won 3 times in 2nd turn in tournaments, too many more in 3rd and 4th, but from a total of 30 matches (maybe more). This decklist dont depend on the Berserks too much as others. It hates control and combo decks, as you can imagine. Black control decks are a terrible match againt Stompy. One of the best cards Im using against those decks, is Leyline of Sanctity (it's also good against a few more decks, particullary combo ones). Krosan Grip is a must, I always run 4 copies of it too. The rest depend on the metagame.

So, I think there is no much more to say. Forgive my English, and have a good day :)

Dark Confidant is NOT worth a black splash, IMHO. You could always use Sylvan Library and keep it mono-green. It also opens you up to Wasteland. Turn 1 Verdant Catacombs >>> Bayou. Opponent, turn 1 Wasteland, kill your Bayou. Your chances of drawing into another land is not that great, but your Lotus Petals are decent answers to that. I'd rather use Sylvan Library though, just my honest opinion.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Land Grant is too dangerous in Berserk Stompy. Revealing your hand allows the control player to plan the game. They won't be wondering 'do you have Berserk' they will KNOW whether or not you have Berserk in hand. Playing Rogue Elephant alongside of Land Grant is even WORSE...now you're DEFINATELY going to be losing a land/tempo. I'd rather just use a higher land count than use Land Grant. Land Grant can work if you are playing a one-turn win combo (like Grapeshot Elves) but not in this deck. Some may disagree with me, but I'm going to stand by it until I see overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I think Rogue ELephant is less risky than Land Grant, but I don't like either. I'd rather use Nettle Sentinel than Rogue Elephant.

[paeng4983]

Dark Confidant is NOT worth a black splash, IMHO. You could always use Sylvan Library and keep it mono-green. It also opens you up to Wasteland. Turn 1 Verdant Catacombs >>> Bayou. Opponent, turn 1 Wasteland, kill your Bayou. Your chances of drawing into another land is not that great, but your Lotus Petals are decent answers to that. I'd rather use Sylvan Library though, just my honest opinion.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Land Grant is too dangerous in Berserk Stompy. Revealing your hand allows the control player to plan the game. They won't be wondering 'do you have Berserk' they will KNOW whether or not you have Berserk in hand. Playing Rogue Elephant alongside of Land Grant is even WORSE...now you're DEFINATELY going to be losing a land/tempo. I'd rather just use a higher land count than use Land Grant. Land Grant can work if you are playing a one-turn win combo (like Grapeshot Elves) but not in this deck. Some may disagree with me, but I'm going to stand by it until I see overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I think Rogue ELephant is less risky than Land Grant, but I don't like either. I'd rather use Nettle Sentinel than Rogue Elephant.

i don't know mr.safety but i like having bob in for this deck.
bob gives you an extra card each of your upkeeps
(that is if and only if bob is not killed) :)
and if you're worrying to much about being prone to
wasteland, hmmm having verdant (fetching a swamp) and petal, for me,
are enough to cast bob.

about the land grants,just like the others, i have the same opinion.
and other point why land grant is bad, is because you have 16
lands in your deck which i find it too many. :)
i think you should just replace LG with rancors.

rouge elephant is cute, especially if you put rancor on her.

here are some of my suggestions:
-4 Skyshroud Elite
-4 land grant
-4 g.growth
-1 r.elephant

+3 skyshroud cutter
+2 (any of the 1cc with 2/x)
+4 rancor
+4 vines of the vastwood (for your protection since you're not running silhana or bogle)

[NihilObstat]

Land Grant is too dangerous in Berserk Stompy. Revealing your hand allows the control player to plan the game.
The only actual bad thing about Land Grant is having an opponent with a Daze-Spell Pierce in hand, which happens many times. Revealing the hand really doesn't matter.

[Gui]

The only actual bad thing about Land Grant is having an opponent with a Daze-Spell Pierce in hand, which happens many times. Revealing the hand really doesn't matter.

Revealing hand does matter. First, the simple case, some players happen to play Cabal Therapy or Meddling Mage. Also, the opponent will know if his duress/thoughtseize is worth the shot. Second, the case in which you got only one creature in hand, and upon revealing, the oponent knows that you lack creatures and knows exactly how to delay you. And last, when you have a berserk, unless you are protected against opponent hate/counter, he knows exactly what you will do and can save resources for the moment where his gains are maximized. Good players WILL take advantage from that.

Not to mention that it can be countered and duressed. Land Grant is strategically bad and its purpose, filtering early lands, isn't even perceptible. Plain forest is better, by all means.

To be honest, only case where I'd use land grant at stompy is that budget list I posted above, to back up Talara, and only as 2-of.

[NihilObstat]

Hehe, I shouldn't have said "the only bad thing", when I meant that the worst thing, why the cards is horrible is when it gets countered instead of downing a land which can't be. But yes, it's also bad in many other contexts.

[Clark Kant]

Is there any chance you could revise the OP with a newer build.

The way I see it, if you're going to use Kavu Predator, you should absolutely be running.

Nature's Claim
Invigorate
Swords to Plowshares

Especially with all the Survivals and other artifacts/enchantments running around

[Gui]

Is there any chance you could revise the OP with a newer build.

The way I see it, if you're going to use Kavu Predator, you should absolutely be running.

Nature's Claim
Invigorate
Swords to Plowshares

Especially with all the Survivals and other artifacts/enchantments running around

The original post already got my current version for the deck, since there was no recent results with it, I let it there for reference. I've explained why I use Gleeful Sabotage instead of Nature's Claim one page or two before, and I agree swords should be used if you splash :w:, although I prefer the :r: splash, or go for a GRW. I don't have a GRW updated list, maybe Etienne could provide a tested one


EDIT:

To put it simple: Gleeful Sabotage is the best disenchant effect we have.

For those who don't know how Gleeful Sabotage works: Gleeful got conspire, which means you can tap 2 green creature and copy it into the pile. The copy isn't casted, so that chalice won't trigger for it. The same is valid for Counterbalance, although a good player will try to hardcounter the copy and balancecounter the casted spell.

So, the reasons for that are as follow:
a) Most of the games, we'll be sitting at 1~2 mana, unless we increase out manabase. Thus, Krosan Grip is subpar.
b) Instant speed isn't better than being able to override CB+Top or Chalice of the Void @2, thus, Naturalize is subpar
c) 1cc removals (oxidizes and such) won't ever override CB+Top or Chalice @1, being subpar.
d) Seal of Primordium has to be cast before an stabilished CB+Top or Chalice@2, so it's a bad topdeck
e) Against Vengevines, Krosan Grip is subpar because of it's speed, it won't enter turn 2 unless you got ESGs, and by turn 3, a resolved Survival will already have 2-4 Vengevines.
f) Against Enchantress, Stax and Affinity, it represents an obvious card advantage.


And for the record: don't side tormods against Vengevine.

[NihilObstat]

I don't know if I can write down other pages links here, so if I can't let me know and I'll post the deck:

This is the decklist I told you about, and I'm the 8th player in the tourney ;)

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5403&iddeck=39153

[Mr. Safety]

It's official, we no longer have a good matchup against Vengevine/Survival, because Survival is banned, hahahaha.

In my opinion, it opens up Berserk Stompy to becoming a lot more viable.

[NihilObstat]

So Mr. Safety just gave me a good idea.

What do you guys think this deck is missing. What cards, or type of card should Wizards print for us to become more competitive. I mean serious thoughts, not something like "printing a new berserk with a different name", hehe.

I would say a new "great" pump. Something like G, +3+3, instant, if you control creatures with total strength 6 or more you can this for free, or if you control 3 or more creatures you can play it for free.

Or a new +4/+4 better than the one in Worldwake.

[paeng4983]

So Mr. Safety just gave me a good idea.

What do you guys think this deck is missing. What cards, or type of card should Wizards print for us to become more competitive. I mean serious thoughts, not something like "printing a new berserk with a different name", hehe.

I would say a new "great" pump. Something like G, +3+3, instant, if you control creatures with total strength 6 or more you can this for free, or if you control 3 or more creatures you can play it for free.

Or a new +4/+4 better than the one in Worldwake.

"pump"
G
sorcery
target creature gets +2/+2
if you control 2 or more creatures, target creature gets +4/+4 instead.

[lyracian]

So Mr. Safety just gave me a good idea.

What do you guys think this deck is missing. What cards, or type of card should Wizards print for us to become more competitive.
I would say a new "great" pump. Something like G, +3+3, instant, if you control creatures with total strength 6 or more you can this for free, or if you control 3 or more creatures you can play it for free..A Vines of Vastwood the other way around (so the kicker is Shroud) would be nice. Personally I would like a few more Beast Creatures to use in the deck and a Tribal Giant Growth that was "+3/+3 or +5/+5 to a beast". Also a Bounty of the Hunt that leaves the counter in play would be nice.

[Mr. Safety]

I think the best thing that Wizards could print for berserk stompy would be a troll shroud creature at 3 mana or less that has a relivant combat booster. Something like this:

Troll-Shroud Beast GG
creature - beast
2/1
Troll-Shroud Beast cannot be targeted by spells or abilities your opponent's control.

Green creatures you control with a power of 1 or less get +1/+1

Another option would be a decent enchantment that would substiture for Glorious Anthem/Gaea's Anthem or an instant that pumps one creature OR multiple creatures with a kicker cost.

New Enchantment GG

Green creatures you control get +1/+1. If those creatures have power 1 or less, they get +3/+3 instead

New Instant G
kicker: target opponent gains 3 life
target creature gets +3/+0 until end of turn. if the Kicker cost was paid, 2 target creatures gain +3/+0 until end of turn

[Gui]

So Mr. Safety just gave me a good idea.

What do you guys think this deck is missing. What cards, or type of card should Wizards print for us to become more competitive. I mean serious thoughts, not something like "printing a new berserk with a different name", hehe.

I would say a new "great" pump. Something like G, +3+3, instant, if you control creatures with total strength 6 or more you can this for free, or if you control 3 or more creatures you can play it for free.

Or a new +4/+4 better than the one in Worldwake.

Oh well, why not, sometimes I think about it too... good way to brainstorm and see what the deck misses, and why.
I wish we had something boosted for our deck but that wouldn't break the format, and now that I thought, a better pump would be just twice as good at pump-infect lists, so I don't expect much there.

I feel like a big creature could deal some pressure, something like

Skyshroud Ogre :g::g:
As long as you don't control any lands but basic forests, Skyshroud Ogre gets +2/+3.
2/2

[boneclub24]

Maybe something like:
Wild Mongoose :g:
Creature - Mongoose
Trollshroud.
As long as Wild Mongooses' power is 3 or greater, it gets +2/+2
1/1

[NihilObstat]

I wish we had something boosted for our deck but that wouldn't break the format, and now that I thought, a better pump would be just twice as good at pump-infect lists, so I don't expect much there.

I also thought that a new pump would be a rare thing, but maybe something like this:
G, sorcery, +3/+3 or +2/+2
Metallcraft +4/+4 instead

That would be gigantic for infect stompy ^^

I would suggest to write cards that might actually get printed, the moongose, the ogre and the enchantments you are writing are just way too good ^^
Although the ogre might appear when this appears again, if it does: Imperiosaur

What do you say to something like:
G-Enchantment

At the beginning of your draw step you may look at the top 3 cards of your library and put them back in any order. If you control 3 or more creatures or creatures with total power 6 or more you may draw an extra card this turn.

[lyracian]

I would suggest to write cards that might actually get printed, the moongose, the ogre and the enchantments you are writing are just way too good ^^Well what do you think Ledgewalker for double green would get?

Spire Mice GG
Troll-shourd, only blocked by flyers, 2/1 or would we get 2/2?

[boneclub24]

Well what do you think Ledgewalker for double green would get?

Spire Mice GG
Troll-shourd, only blocked by flyers, 2/1 or would we get 2/2?

Well... there was Garruk's Companion... but TS is a much more powerful ability than trample (imo)... I would say a 2/1 would be more likely.

[Gui]

I would suggest to write cards that might actually get printed, the moongose, the ogre and the enchantments you are writing are just way too good ^^

What do you say to something like:
G-Enchantment
At the beginning of your draw step you may look at the top 3 cards of your library and put them back in any order. If you control 3 or more creatures or creatures with total power 6 or more you may draw an extra card this turn.

Tell me about impossible cards, that enchantment would certainly be the nuts at Zoo xD

The ogre is not strong, not every deck can afford using only basic forests but us and elves, and it's not an elf, so that only us would use it xD
Consider that Tarmo does almost the same without any of the disadvantages of the ogre =P

Ok, back to topic, Vengevine is still a deck, and is still dead fast, so don't get too depressed, we still have a good match against them =PPP (I'm joking, for the case that someone doesn't realize)
Good thing is that now tormod's kinda counter them better, although Intuition trick is sooo strong...

[paeng4983]

Well what do you think Ledgewalker for double green would get?

Spire Mice GG
Troll-shourd, only blocked by flyers, 2/1 or would we get 2/2?

we already have silhana ledgewalker

[Gui]

Imperiosaur as 3/4 for :g::g: would be nice. xD

[lyracian]

we already have silhana ledgewalkerHowever Ledgewalker costs one colourless and one green. I would like a slightly powered up version for double green that was a Beast. The deck could also run both of them then and have even more Troll-shroud creatures.

The other card that would be nice is something like Seedling Charm with the options to destroy an artefact; regenerate a green creature; give a green creature +2/+2

[Mr. Safety]

I also thought that a new pump would be a rare thing, but maybe something like this:
G, sorcery, +3/+3 or +2/+2
Metallcraft +4/+4 instead

That would be gigantic for infect stompy ^^

I would suggest to write cards that might actually get printed, the moongose, the ogre and the enchantments you are writing are just way too good ^^
Although the ogre might appear when this appears again, if it does: Imperiosaur (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/145.html)

What do you say to something like:
G-Enchantment

At the beginning of your draw step you may look at the top 3 cards of your library and put them back in any order. If you control 3 or more creatures or creatures with total power 6 or more you may draw an extra card this turn.

That would freakin' ROCK!!! What you just did was upgrade Mirri's Guile and took out the life loss of Sylvan Library. Not too bad, I would think it would be about right, power-wise. It has a stipulation for the extra draw, and otherwise is just a functional re-print of Guile.

We already have Leatherback Baloth which is a 4/5 for GGG. I think that's about as close as we'll get to getting more than a 3/2 or 2/3 for GG.

[Gui]

Well, all that talk and some tests made me realize that the deck may need better creatures to replace the 1ccs that so often get outclassed by oposing Tarmogoyfs, Nacatls, Merfolks and so on. I know how people want to add 3cc creatures to the deck, but I'll avoid that as much as I can and try some 2ccs we got, and by that I mean I'll test Tarmogoyfs once more.

Also, tests shown me that Scryb is currently better than Nettle, and to be honest it may be better than Bogle too, so I'm reducing 1ccs and keeping the core at 4 Skarrgan + 4 Scryb + something else.

We'll see how it goes...

[NihilObstat]

The new Phyrexian Crusader looks like and awesome card for Infect Stompy to me. Alright, he comes down at CCC 3, but he has protection from the two colors with most removal in legacy, so we could say he's the first "troll-shroud" infector we might add :)

By the way, the white one might be good if it didn't have protection from GREEN, duhh!!! Hehe

They should definitely add some troll-shroud big guys in this set!!!

[boneclub24]

I'll test Tarmogoyfs once more..

Be sure to try running it with Lotus Petal and Seal of Strength

[Loffe]

Hello, this is gonna be my first post here and it's gonna be about this deck. Thanks for a amazing thread, been reading it all.

This is the list I play.

Lands: 16
7 Forest
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest

Creatures: 19
3 Street Wraith
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker

Pumps: 23
4 Rancor
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
1 Vines of Vastwood
3 Seal of Strength

Enchantments: 2
2 Sylvan Library

The way I have build this deck is to use Fetch lands to thin the deck (to get Taiga to ofc), same as Street Wraith.
My own life count doesn't matter as much as the opponents life.

First I played 3x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk but I didn't like them, I wanna drop something else turn 2. Like Silhana, Navu, Seal of Strenght to go for the third round kill faster.

Funny deck and I hope for new and better pump and creature spells in the future.

[paeng4983]

happy new yr to every one btw!
does anyone here played this deck over
the recent xmas break tourneys in your area?
last 12 dec 2010, i played this in a 70 plus man tourney
wherein i landed 3-3-1 mark.

here in the phillipines we have an upcoming tourney
this sunday (9th of January). now that sur got axed,
im planning to use this deck again. any new suggestions
guys? thanks

oh btw off topic, i heard that the last GP for 2011 will
be at Amsterdamn and it will be in legacy format.
anyone planning to go? :)

[Gui]

happy new yr to every one btw!
does anyone here played this deck over
the recent xmas break tourneys in your area?
last 12 dec 2010, i played this in a 70 plus man tourney
wherein i landed 3-3-1 mark.

here in the phillipines we have an upcoming tourney
this sunday (9th of January). now that sur got axed,
im planning to use this deck again. any new suggestions
guys? thanks

oh btw off topic, i heard that the last GP for 2011 will
be at Amsterdamn and it will be in legacy format.
anyone planning to go? :)

Oh I wish... Toooo far xD

Let us know how it was, and list? Any playtests/results are apreciated

[Mr. Safety]

Hello, this is gonna be my first post here and it's gonna be about this deck. Thanks for a amazing thread, been reading it all.

This is the list I play.

Lands: 16
7 Forest
3 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest

Creatures: 19
3 Street Wraith
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker

Pumps: 23
4 Rancor
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
1 Vines of Vastwood
3 Seal of Strength

Enchantments: 2
2 Sylvan Library

The way I have build this deck is to use Fetch lands to thin the deck (to get Taiga to ofc), same as Street Wraith.
My own life count doesn't matter as much as the opponents life.

First I played 3x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk but I didn't like them, I wanna drop something else turn 2. Like Silhana, Navu, Seal of Strenght to go for the third round kill faster.

Funny deck and I hope for new and better pump and creature spells in the future.

I would much rather use Manamorphose than Street Wraith. It doesn't cost you life, and fixes your red requirment even if you don't have a land that makes red mana. It opens up Talara's Battalion for an additional beater, should you feel the need for more beef in the deck. TBH, I'd rather just use Skarrgan Pit-Skulk instead of the Street Wraiths. I think even Elvish Spirit Guide would be a better option. Good luck!

[Loffe]

It's not like im really in big need of red mana with 3 red cards and with 6 fetch I normaly have one when ever I need one.
I do not like Talara's Battalion. The thing about Manamorphose is that it cost mana and Street Wraith doesn't. They do the same the thing is only the cost as I think Street Wraith is better because it's "free".
Elvish Spirit Guide give me card loss, I have to ditch another card that I need.

Thanks for you input!

[Mr. Safety]

Manamorphose is free, too. It essentially lets you play a 56 card deck, meaning you'll draw the cards you really want to more often. It's just a thought.

[Loffe]

Manamorphose is free, too. It essentially lets you play a 56 card deck, meaning you'll draw the cards you really want to more often. It's just a thought.

The problem with Manamorphose is that if I had to mulligan and only can get a hand with 1 land it's a useless card, with Street Wraith I could start digging faster for a land or scoop.

[Mr. Safety]

It's an interesting concept, and they both do essentially the same thing.

I would challenge the whole idea though...for myself, I'd rather have 4 more threats. You only have 16 creatures right now...and that doesn't seem like enough.

[Loffe]

It's an interesting concept, and they both do essentially the same thing.

I would challenge the whole idea though...for myself, I'd rather have 4 more threats. You only have 16 creatures right now...and that doesn't seem like enough.

At the moment I'm running a 57 card deck which increase the chance of get a threat/pump/land rather then put in 3 bad creatures. Almost every deck running alot of removals as the creatures just get better and better. If they only could make more troll shroud creatures. :/

Both Manamorphose and Street Wraith does the same thing. 2 life to draw a card or 2 mana and get 2 mana and draw a card.
You could compare Thoughtseize and Duress the same way. Thoughtseize let's you discards a opponent's creature by paying 2 life.
Same way I hate Talara's Battalion because you have to waste a pump spell or put out a creature round 3. Sure you could use Invigorate but that's a waste of pump if you gonna waste your pumps on a attack which isn't killing your opponent. Manamorphose is 4 cards out of 56 others to get Talara's Battalion out on round 2. That's a bad card for me in this deck.

Share your idea's about this please.

[paeng4983]

Manamorphose is free, too. It essentially lets you play a 56 card deck, meaning you'll draw the cards you really want to more often. It's just a thought.

off topic
*looking at your avatar*
is that really you mr.safety?

back to the topic
manamorphose requires you to pay its casting cost
unlike that black witch, which only requires you to
pay with two lives.

[NihilObstat]

Street Wraith is plainly better in our deck.
It requires 0 mana and it can, and will, give you our second so needed land faster.
Uncounterable, except for Stiffle.

I don't find it good enough for the slots he eats though. I tested it some time, and I hated topdecking it, cycling it, and drawing a forest. When if Wraith had been a pump or creature, it could have won me the game.


On another Topic:

I am seeing very little Stiffle in my metagame, so I'm considering to go back to play 12x Fetchlands, 5x Forest.
By the way, I'm lately playing 17 lands instead of 16 and 15. God it helps reducing the mulligan + unplayable Kavu - Silhana count :)

I am also taking Stompy to a meta with ANTs always making top8. What could I run in the sideboard other than Mindbreak trap, and maybe also Thorn of Amethyst?

[boneclub24]

Just curious what people's current lists are?

Land: 17
16 Forest
1 Tranquil Thicket

Creatures: 20
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Scryb Sprites

Spells: 23
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
3 Seal of Strength
2 Giant Growth
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard: 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Gleeful Sabotage
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Vexing Shusher

[Gui]

On another Topic:

I am seeing very little Stiffle in my metagame, so I'm considering to go back to play 12x Fetchlands, 5x Forest.
By the way, I'm lately playing 17 lands instead of 16 and 15. God it helps reducing the mulligan + unplayable Kavu - Silhana count :)

I am also taking Stompy to a meta with ANTs always making top8. What could I run in the sideboard other than Mindbreak trap, and maybe also Thorn of Amethyst?

I'm playing 18, no regreats so far. It backups Sylvans and Goyfs when I use them.

ANT redundancy would be Chalice of the Void @0. Thorn is bad unless, and even if you play 4 ESG.

@boneclub24

How is that list going for you? I had a similar one with Vines of Vastwood instead of Growth. I've been considering more the fact that VoV is often dead when Silhana/Bogle is online. Been considering that maybe we should go for one method of protection or the other, instead of both.

[boneclub24]

Yeah, 18 is what has been working best for me. I need to make room for another land.

@Gui: I'm not happy with Vines. It's hard enough to get 2 land, let alone the 3 needed to do kicked Vines + Berserk. How has the Goyf list gone?

[paeng4983]

@nihilo
lethal storm count - then tendrills for X / or X storm count for ETW, inresponse - M.TRAP?
remove all storm count including the original ETW or tendrills so that you wont lose life
or he wont have X number of gobs token?

im i correct? is that the way how you play it?
@_@

on topic, im using 16 (8 fetches, 8forest)
and here, only a few uses stifle. here spot removals
are rampant, so do with combo and control-aggro decks.

[boneclub24]

@nihilo
lethal storm count - then tendrills for X / or X storm count for ETW, inresponse - M.TRAP?
remove all storm count including the original ETW or tendrills so that you wont lose life
or he wont have X number of gobs token?

im i correct? is that the way how you play it?
@_@

Yeah, just play Mind Trap after the storm trigger has gone off.

[Gui]

@nihilo
lethal storm count - then tendrills for X / or X storm count for ETW, inresponse - M.TRAP?
remove all storm count including the original ETW or tendrills so that you wont lose life
or he wont have X number of gobs token?

im i correct? is that the way how you play it?
@_@

on topic, im using 16 (8 fetches, 8forest)
and here, only a few uses stifle. here spot removals
are rampant, so do with combo and control-aggro decks.

You should try to play MBT before their lethal tendrils, tho. They know it is one of your best options and will try to avoid it. MBT is more easily played around than Chalice, because they can delay their combo a bit and Orim's Chant you, while they will need another hate to fight chalice @0.
Mindbreak is better against Belcher and Solidarity/Spring Tide.

IMO, if you are already running 8 fetches, there's no much reason not to splash red out of 2-3 Taigas and get 3 extra berserks out of Assault Strobe. You will only need Taiga for strobe, so that you only fetch it for the final blow.

[Masamune]

Hey everyone... I found this list in deckcheck...did anyone saw it recently?

http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiac7bEbE

This guy take 1st just running 2x Boggles and also some ESG...comments? :]

[NihilObstat]

Hey everyone... I found this list in deckcheck...did anyone saw it recently?
http://www.deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiac7bEbE
This guy take 1st just running 2x Boggles and also some ESG...comments? :]

He is the guy that won the big monthly tournament that I organize, that I talked about but nobody commented ^^

He's top 8 was:
Legacy Vampires - full of removal, but he was fine with only 2 boggle
Enchantress - he played against my girlfriend and got lucky, lost 1st game but drew the 2x Reverent silence, that I had borrowed him, the next two games, my girlfriend almost kills me...
Merfolk - Decent/Easy pairing, good hands.
I think he also faced Goblins, Elves aggro, Vampires (the same ones, but before top8), and a semi-Rock.

ESG worked very well for him, though.

[Masamune]

Ok! So...how about this list? What's is your opinion NihilObstat? I aways like to run my four bogles and stomp everybody without ESG's... :x

Editing: By the way...is it hard to organize these tounaments?

[Gui]

What that list shows to me is that the deck can actually run with 16 creatures and that Bogle is, indeed, not that necessary.

Also, it shows that the magical 18-forest number works. xD

How many players were there Nihil?

[NihilObstat]

What that list shows to me is that the deck can actually run with 16 creatures and that Bogle is, indeed, not that necessary.
Also, it shows that the magical 18-forest number works. xD
How many players were there Nihil?

We were only 19 players this time and it was a very aggressive meta (5 goblins!) also with around 5 combo decks.
This is the 4th time that Stompy shows up to the tournie but the first it makes top8, although the other times it was close (2 of them Infect Stompy which died because of spot removal to kill the infecting creatures).

My comments on his list are as Gui's. 18 lands seems a great number, anyway most Legacy decks play around 23-26, and low mana decks similar to ours like Canadian, run 18 backed up by 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder that basically are there to fix mana, and their curve looks just like ours. Zoo runs 22 lands, Goblins also spend 23 spots in lands, Death&Taxes also 22, Maverick 22 lands also, so 18 lands is already a low enough number it seems, less than that means mulligan or not getting the 2nd land soon enough.

Also Boggle is great, but he's a 1/1, and that has made me lose many, many games that I can recall, because Berserked it means 2 damage less, and that is quite a lot. Maybe running a lower number, 2 or 3, and adding Tarmogoyf or Ascetic Troll could work. Although, knowing your meta is always important, if you know there's not much Zoo or Canadian or Swords, then you can maybe even take all 4 out, but also if you know there are always many Zoo and Swords, then you definitely need the Bogglis :)

On the ESG topic, how many of you do actually run them. Is it more than 50% or not, I believe that the only reason why I don't run them is because I don't have them, hehe.


I will finally play Berserk Stompy next time (29th) and I'm going for the Win ^^

[Hireax]

Have you guys ever tested a white splash in this deck? Although it seems that it will leave you more vulnerable to stifle and wasteland, the addition of white gives us options like:

Swords to Plowshares, which gives a nice boost to Kavu Predator and exiles any opponent's threats.

Jotun Grunt, I don't know about that one since we do not fill our graves that quickly (although a bit quicker when you run Fetch)

and Gaddock Teeg for side against Chalice and Storm combo :).

Just putting the thought out there :)

[NihilObstat]

Have you guys ever tested a white splash in this deck?
Swords to Plowshares, Jotun Grunt, and Gaddock Teg


And don't forget about Qasali Pridemage which is just perfect for our deck.
The white splash has been widely discussed throughout the thread, but with the new Assault strobe, we have decided that if we splash only 1 color, the one to go for is Red.

Do you run a white splash list? If so, decklists are always welcome and any tournament reports :)

[Hireax]

I don't have a list, but am planning on testing it on MWS :)

I can see why red would be a better option, due to the extra speed that is obtained. I still feel that white would make match-ups more favorable :).

[boneclub24]

I don't have a list, but am planning on testing it on MWS :)

I can see why red would be a better option, due to the extra speed that is obtained. I still feel that white would make match-ups more favorable :).

Speaking of MWS, if any of you guys have Yahoo or MSN, I can help you test any time

[NihilObstat]

I don't have a list, but am planning on testing it on MWS :)
I can see why red would be a better option, due to the extra speed that is obtained. I still feel that white would make match-ups more favorable :)

That's why if you have the money I would suggest you to run a 3 color version of the deck such as the ones that Etienne plays, but Jotün is not worth playing when you already have Tarmogoyf (sure they don't cost the same $), and Gaddock sounds kinda sub-par to me for our decks main goal, super fast aggro beat. He is not good against ANT because they will "bounce" him and it's only good against Chalice if you start the game with him, a land and Lotus or ESG.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=4647&iddeck=36586
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=1027&iddeck=33220
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=3564&iddeck=30455
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=1117&iddeck=10409

Still a GW version can also be very good indeed, white opens up many new possibilities, so try it out ;)

[Hireax]

Thanks for your kind reply :).

Tarmo is above my budget I'm affraid. I'll definitely look into the possibilities :D


Speaking of MWS, if any of you guys have Yahoo or MSN, I can help you test any time

That would be great, yet I have like 0 experience when it comes to things like this as I have been playing casual magic throughout the past years.

[Gui]

I appreciate testing help, PM'd for msn ^^

GW lists got Qasali, which is a strong 2cc drop. Also, got Double Cleave as Berserk 5 and 6, and of course, StP. I preffer Chalice over Gaddock against combo, Gaddock actually is better as anti-wrath and anti-E.E.

I think adding 2 or 3 Tarmo is still better budget than splashing, but that would be my oppinion. I like the monogreen version, so I'm using Tarmogoyfs right now. I don't know any creature for 2cc other than Silhana and Kavu that could be better for us than Goyf, even without Petals and Grants and anything, he's just 3/4 every game (and well, if there was a plain 3/4 creature for :1::g:, I'd run 4). Only thing I'm running to boost him is Seal, so far so good, since everyone and their mothers runs fetchlands and instants, and our creatures reach the grave quite often anyways =/

[Gui]

Oh, btw, green might be able to build its own monogreen infect stompy now: Rot Wolf and Viridian Corrupter, for cmc 3, with nice abilities.

http://mtgsalvation.com/mirrodin-besieged-spoiler.html


And the 4cc troll-shrouded troll that cannot be countered is kinda nuts against control, even though 4cc...

[boneclub24]

Oh, btw, green might be able to build its own monogreen infect stompy now: Rot Wolf and Viridian Corrupter, for cmc 3, with nice abilities.

http://mtgsalvation.com/mirrodin-besieged-spoiler.html


And the 4cc troll-shrouded troll that cannot be countered is kinda nuts against control, even though 4cc...

He fits in the kind of build I was talking about yesterday, with Sword.


That would be great, yet I have like 0 experience when it comes to things like this as I have been playing casual magic throughout the past years.


Alright, add me: boneclub24@gmail.com

[Pltnmngl]

Thrun, the Last Troll...I wish we could use him...he's too expensive, but such a cool card. If only he had something like one more toughness. Then, I could convince myself that he could go up against goyf in control decks. lol

[NihilObstat]

2 or 3 Tarmo

Hehehe, it's so funny ^^
I think we are the only deck who wouldn't run 4 of him, because he costs TOO MUCH mana, when we are already running Kavu and Silhana ^^

On the MWS thing. Does anybody know how to run MWS or similar on Machinstosh, I've looked online but don't get lucky :(

[boneclub24]

Hehehe, it's so funny ^^
I think we are the only deck who wouldn't run 4 of him, because he costs TOO MUCH mana, when we are already running Kavu and Silhana ^^

On the MWS thing. Does anybody know how to run MWS or similar on Machinstosh, I've looked online but don't get lucky :(

I only know to do it with a windows emulator.

[NEXUS7]

Hi There

This is my first message, i have been reading all the pages of this thread, and first of all, i want to thank you all, for the ideas and concepts that i have read here.

I want to run BS monoGreen, but i'm not sure about my deck, i pray for your help with it:


// Lands (18) -> Magic number as you say 2 pages before, but even with the pendel and cradle?
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven
1 Gaea's Cradle
10 Forest

// Creatures (19) -> Really 16 w/o the ESG.
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Scryb Sprites
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells (21 + 2 Sylvan)
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
3 Seal of Strength
2 Vines of Vastwood
2 Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Slippery Bogle
SB: 2 Vines of Vastwood
SB: 4 Gleeful Sabotage
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Forest

My SB is not complete, but of course i'm going to include the 4x Gleeful Sabotage and the 4x 4 Vexing Shusher minimum. Now, i dont know the metagame, and perhaps i am looking an standard SB.

What do you think about the deck ?

What will you do with it ?

Thx !!

[paeng4983]

here's mine:
Yahoo messenger rafael_lagasca
Gmail rafaellagasca@gmail.com

:)

i dont have an MSN acct

by the way,i love these new cards:
- Thrun, the Last Troll
- Green Sun's Zenith
- Rot Wolf (and maybe this)

[Hireax]

@Nexus

SB seems a little fragile, perhaps you could do this if you like it

- 4 Vines of Vastwood
- 1 Forest

+ 3 Relic of Progenitus/ Tormod's Crypt
+ 2 Crucible of Worlds *with your manabase not such a bad option! Great when your fetch gets stiffled or your gaea/pendel gets wasted

How do people feel about Crucible side anyway? Always nice against land hate, but idk if we will be able to drop in on the table before we get the hate in our face :D

[Gui]

I think we should try Choke against Merfolks and CB+Top. Has anyone tryed it already? I think that maybe with 18 lands we can have a couple, and they look more gamebreaker than shusher is.

[Hireax]

At first sight I'm not too fond of Choke. CMC 4 seems rather high, besides it makes it necessary to run 4 ESG. We could run it with a mana base like this I suppose:

16 Forest (forestlike lands, depending on the build)
4 Lotus Petal
4 ESG

Although this eats 6 spaces, which otherwise would be handy for about anything :).
Of course Tarmo becomes sort of a must have in such a base.

EDIT: Oops I saw it is CMC 3, this changes stuff.. Although I'm still not sure whether to run this in side over Shusher.

[Gui]

Phyrexian Revoker is just a god damn great hate card. we will sure have some work to do.
Honestly, 2/1 for :2: shutting SDT and a billion other cards is probably maindeckable

[Hireax]

That looks really promising! A good replacement for Pithing Needle!

[NEXUS7]

Phyrexian Revoker is just a god damn great hate card. we will sure have some work to do.
Honestly, 2/1 for :2: shutting SDT and a billion other cards is probably maindeckable


But, how it will works exactly ?

Drop it and name "calix of void" ?

[paeng4983]

p.revoker can shut down even llanowar elves and the like abilities.
(i forgot the name of the sorcery card) that card that has XG cc
"fetch for a green creature with equal to the X paid, then put that creature into play"
i think this card is great if you are using an infect creature card (as a tech-win) / deck.
how i wish we have a "G cc creature" with infect in it.

whenever i play this deck, i always play it aggressively against blue base decks.
even during games two and three. running rushwood legate (especially if you manage to
play two legates plus a 1cc in your 1st turn) really makes your opponent
go panic. then followed by rancor on your next turn then swing, picture perfect!

the only times that i do defensively is when i am
up against a dredge deck, tormod's/ relic are my SB against them.
same with affinity/ stax (seeds) and enchantress (R.silence).


as of the moment i have this line up for my deck
(patterned after magic_style thanks bro!)

twenty_eleven_5peso_stumpy
lands 16
4 wooded foothills
4 windswept heath
3 Savannah
2 taiga
1 plateau
2 forest

creature 20
4 wild nactl
4 qasali pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
4 kavu predator
4 ESG

article 4
4 lotus petal

removal 4
4 STP

pump 16
4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 rancor
4 vines of vastwood

SB
4 Mindbreak trap
4 tormods/ relic (combination)
4 rushwood legate
3 seeds/ silence (meta call)

[NihilObstat]

I think we should try Choke against Merfolks and CB+Top. Has anyone tryed it already? I think that maybe with 18 lands we can have a couple, and they look more gamebreaker than shusher is.

I think that Choke is only good in Enchantress. What we should fear the most of Merfolk is FOW-Daze-fast nasty blue creatures, and Choke doesn't destroy that. Specially since they play Aether Vial and they basically don't need Blue to play, and Daze will anyway "untap" their lands, and FOW is also manaless.
I am not seeing much CBTop in my meta (thankfully), but even against them Shusher is better. Vexing makes anything uncounterable, plus he is Uncounterable and has a 2/2 body! He is just perfect for our deck :)


Phyrexian Revoker is greaat, just one question what do you mean by SDT?

[paeng4983]

just one question what do you mean by SDT?
sensei's divining top

:)

[boneclub24]

I think that Choke is only good in Enchantress. What we should fear the most of Merfolk is FOW-Daze-fast nasty blue creatures, and Choke doesn't destroy that. Specially since they play Aether Vial and they basically don't need Blue to play, and Daze will anyway "untap" their lands, and FOW is also manaless.
I am not seeing much CBTop in my meta (thankfully), but even against them Shusher is better. Vexing makes anything uncounterable, plus he is Uncounterable and has a 2/2 body! He is just perfect for our deck :)


Phyrexian Revoker is greaat, just one question what do you mean by SDT?

I also run Choke in EvaGreen. Kills Merfolk dead.


But, how it will works exactly ?

Drop it and name "calix of void" ?

No, because Chalice is a triggered, not an activated ability.

[Gui]

Lead the Stampede :2::g:
Sorcery

Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal any number of creature cards from among them and put the revealed cards into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.


This card is amazing! oO

[NEXUS7]

This card is amazing! oO

Instead of sylvan library?

Perhaps, 3cc is to expensive for us. What do you think about it?

[Gui]

Instead of sylvan library?

Perhaps, 3cc is to expensive for us. What do you think about it?

I'm not sure what to think, to be honest. At first I thought I'd always like to have one in hand and increase my duders count. Now I think that would only be good against control matchups.

I use Sylvan in a hole other way, fetching pumps, usually. I don't think it will replace the 2-of Sylvans in current Sylvan builds. But it opens the possibility for a creature-oriented aggro deck instead of a pump-oriented, with an amazing card-advantage generator. A deck that could add 3cc creatures in a more stable fashion, maybe? Maybe vials are worth with this? :confused:

[NEXUS7]

In your opinion, ... its possible to make a competitive red splashed deck without Taigas?

I have the 8 fetchlands, to use with the sylvan, but i've thinking in the red splashed, only including 3 assault strobe.

[paeng4983]

In your opinion, ... its possible to make a competitive red splashed deck without Taigas?

I have the 8 fetchlands, to use with the sylvan, but i've thinking in the red splashed, only including 3 assault strobe.

you mean, you'll run stomping ground instead of taiga?
- i think using this rav dual is ok if you're going for the kill.

or, you'll run mountains instead of taiga?
- there will be times that drawing a mountain would spell you defeat.
just stick with the rav dual if you cannot afford the taigas.


Lead the Stampede
im not impress with this. i'd rather run SL (my reason for running SL is the same as gui's).

[NihilObstat]

In your opinion, ... its possible to make a competitive red splashed deck without Taigas?

I have the 8 fetchlands, to use with the sylvan, but i've thinking in the red splashed, only including 3 assault strobe.

I am currently testing this build out.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Stomping Ground
2 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Kavu Predator
4 Invigorate
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Berserk
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor
4 Slippery Bogle
3 Vines of Vastwood

Sideboard:
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Seeds of Innocence


Things to say about it:
I goldfished (played against the wall) it 35 times.
I had to mullingan Zero times. Zero, which I'm not sure if it's a good thing, or if maybe 18 lands is too much.
I had dealt 20 or more damage in all 35 games by turn 5 maximum, never a turn 6 kill.
My average turn kill was 3,85.

Sideboard hasn't been tested since I haven't played any real games yet. I would like to take this build to my next tournies, so any comments guys? Thanks ;)

I've been thinking that running so many fetchlands, Groundswell might be a good choice taking out Vines of Vastwood or Seal of Strength, but I just love Seal SO MUCH...

[NEXUS7]

why not including 1 mountain to search with 4 Wooded Foothills to play Assault ?

Perhaps 2 stomping ground to get "R" ... will be to little. I don't know really. but it seems to little.

Do you feel the deck is working fine with 16 creatures ?

What creatures do you choose between this ones ?:

4x Slippery Bogle / 4x Scryb Sprites / 4x Nettle Sentinel

I have 12 creatures that are basic for the deck (Silhana, Kavu predator, and Skarrgan, 4 of them.) But i don't know what to do with the restant slots for creatures....

[boneclub24]

I like Scryb Sprites, and then Slippery Bogle would be my next choice after that.

[Zalren]

There was some talk about adding a 3cc creature to some builds. I saw some suggested Troll Ascetic but I find that the problem is running out of cards in hand to kill the opponent. What about adding Ohran Viper? Or even Keen Sense if 3cc is too high?

[NEXUS7]

There was some talk about adding a 3cc creature to some builds. I saw some suggested Troll Ascetic but I find that the problem is running out of cards in hand to kill the opponent. What about adding Ohran Viper? Or even Keen Sense if 3cc is too high?

Keen sense it's ok over a creature with shroud, ... but i'm using "sylvan Library" to draw cards ... yes, it takes 4 lifes for extra-card, but we don't care about life, because we want to win at turn 3-4. However, sylvan remains in the table not onto a creature.... for this, i think "keen sense" is more fragil than a global encantment, in my opinion.

I'm thinkin to drop out the "Gaea's Craddle", for another pump.

This is my deck now (with red splash):

8 fetch
4 Forest
4 Taigas (im using proxys )
16 Creatures
22 pumps
2 sylvan library
1 pendelhaven
1 gaea's craddle

I'm not sure about the red splash... and i don't have the taigas and they are expensive... so i´m thinking in a monogreen BS:

With 18 mana, 16 creatures and 24 pumps (+ 2 sylvan).

(is 16 creatures enough?)

[Gui]

With 18 mana, 16 creatures and 24 pumps (+ 2 sylvan).
(is 16 creatures enough?)

I can't be sure, but 26 spells (24pumps + 2sylvan) does seem a lot!

Quoting a friend of mine: "Pumps are useless without creature"; The tricky part is to find how many creatures are enough to make pumps useful, I guess...

[NihilObstat]

4 Taigas (im using proxys )
With 18 mana, 16 creatures and 24 pumps (+ 2 sylvan).
(is 16 creatures enough?)

4 Taigas is a too high risk for this deck, opening up to non-basic hate. You should only go for red when you are actually going to cast Assault strobe, that's why I only run 2 Duals. Trust me on this... more fetchlands, less duals.

16 creatures can be a total fiasco against some pairings (Zoo, Burn, Supreme, Monoblack), but it helps being a lot faster against other pairings.

I am currently considering in having Kavu, Silhana, Skargan, Boggle (since we run so little creatures they better be protected. Maybe a possible take would be adding creatures to the sideboard...

My list is 18 lands, 16 creatures, 26 pumps, hehehe. I am not running Sylvan because of too many fetchlands + ravnika shock lands is a big life loss.

[paeng4983]

i think two taigas are enough.
taiga is fetch-able by any fecthland that has color green with it anyway.
lol
i feel like im trolling
sorry

[paeng4983]

what do you think guys of this 2nd wincon for our berserk stompy deck
Inkmoth Nexus

T1: drop inkmoth
T2: drop forest, attack inkmoth then pump it with invigorate and berserk (via ESG or petal)
:)

ohh im loving it!

[NEXUS7]

what do you think guys of this 2nd wincon for our berserk stompy deck
Inkmoth Nexus

T1: drop inkmoth
T2: drop forest, attack inkmoth then pump it with invigorate and berserk (via ESG or petal)
:)

ohh im loving it!

Hi !

We are talking already in this post:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18758-Pump-Infect-[SOM-spoilage]/page13

The principal way of thinking of this forum is not use infect creatures in a standar berserk stompy, only use in a "infect-berserk-stompy", with all creatures has the infect hability.

I'm not sure if the Inkmoth nexus will slow down us, and the strategy for kill using infect, and points of damage it will be a quite different, so, that the main reason to don't use infect in it.

[NihilObstat]

I also thought that a new pump would be a rare thing, but maybe something like this:
G, sorcery, +3/+3 or +2/+2
Metallcraft +4/+4 instead

That would be gigantic for infect stompy ^^

That's was about a month ago.... now it exist, and it's even better, at instant speed. - Mirran Mettle


So, with all the new cards I see infect stompy possible in 3 types of build:

Pure infect: Ichorclaw myr, Plague stinger, Blight mamba-Ichor rats, Phyrexian crusader, Septic rats. Viridian corrupter sideboard.

Artinfect: Inkmoth nexus, Vector asp, Ichorclaw myr, Plague myr, Necropede, Mox opal, Mirran mettle, Tree of tales, Springleaf drum.

Shroud infect: Silhana ledgewalker, Slippery Boggle, Scryb sprites, Phyresis, Tainted strike.

All these should have Virulent wound in the sideboard, Viridian corrupter. Maybe all these lists could also run Unnatural predation to make sure that infect actually reaches, since most of the infector have no type of evasion. They also should run the pack of Berserk, Invigorate, Rancor, Vines...

What do you guys think? I am liking the full artifact idea, looks strong.

[wilson]

Hi,

imo the most promising is a heavily Black splashed Green Version with artifact Creatures and Discard...
this would be the build:

2 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Inkmoth Nexus

4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength
4 Might of Old Krosa

Maybe Change the Might of Old Krosa to VoV, like Tru3z3rox suggested in theother thread.
I feel this is may be the strongest build just because it has the best spells/creatures combined, and the rest of the infect critters is quite crappy imo. I've had some good results with this list, but it has some obvious weaknesses, the Manabase is a bit vulnerable to Waste/ Stifle.. but the black mana is needed for t1 discard, but at the same time the green for the letal pumps in the following rounds, so both colors must be available all time.
Its good that 8 Creatures need Colorless mana tho, 12 if you count Inkmoth (which produces at the same time), so 99% of the time you have the mana u need.
Im wondering... as its so easy to get to 10 poisen counters with this build, i absolutely have to test pact of negation ..

[NEXUS7]

Only 12 creatures ? (w/o inkmoth nexus)

No Dark Ritual ?

however, i like your deck....

[wilson]

Only 12 creatures ? (w/o inkmoth nexus)

No Dark Ritual ?

however, i like your deck....

strangely i felt that with more creatures, i oftentimes get flooded with them which is very bad because on their own they cant even beat a nacatl... (besides ichorclaw) so i always needed more pumpspells.. but time will tell.

Im just not a friend of accerlation.. it just puts you up to bad trades cardwise in my opinion.. i can see its advantages but imo it just makes the deck more vulnerable... well its mostly personal preference i guess.

Also tested a accerlated Version for testings sake, and it turned out to be significantly worse imo, loosing to itself much too often.. also i think it doesnt make sense to accerlate this deck, it doesnt have the bombs for example dragon stompy has, which have much impact on the board when they land turn 1,but the infect deck can only land a creature accerlated turn one, which just gets sworded or burned out just like when it comes a turn later.. so one just traded 2 to 1 therefore wasting crucial resources. because of this, imo its better to play protection instead of accerlation, also because this deck doesnt need much mana.. just the initial creatre needs it, the pumps are cheap or free, so its just not necessary, because most of the time you just need 2 pumps to do lethal.

the accerlation may be good if u play a opponent who doesnt know the deck, therefore is not careful and doesnt let mana for swords /counter open, so you can land the turn 2 kill.. but as soon as the opponent knows whats coming it loses all its power.


thanks^^

[Tru3z3rox]

Hi,

imo the most promising is a heavily Black splashed Green Version with artifact Creatures and Discard...
this would be the build:

2 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Inkmoth Nexus

4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength
4 Might of Old Krosa

Maybe Change the Might of Old Krosa to VoV, like Tru3z3rox suggested in theother thread.
I feel this is may be the strongest build just because it has the best spells/creatures combined, and the rest of the infect critters is quite crappy imo. I've had some good results with this list, but it has some obvious weaknesses, the Manabase is a bit vulnerable to Waste/ Stifle.. but the black mana is needed for t1 discard, but at the same time the green for the letal pumps in the following rounds, so both colors must be available all time.
Its good that 8 Creatures need Colorless mana tho, 12 if you count Inkmoth (which produces at the same time), so 99% of the time you have the mana u need.
Im wondering... as its so easy to get to 10 poisen counters with this build, i absolutely have to test pact of negation ..

4 Inkmoth is a bit too much. I'm currently testing 3 and I like it. It gives me just enough dudes and just enough pump. I would never suggest dropping Might of Old Krosa for Vines. They are both staples...in fact I'd drop seal of strength before anything, because any +4 and berserk = win if unblocked. Not true with seal.

Also I think 8 discard is a bit too much, so I'd pull 4 of the discard for 4 more dudes (blight mamba) and 4 seals for 4 vines of vastwood. You've also got 10 fetches and not enough lands to fetch. I'd pull 2 of the fetches for an extra forest and a basic swamp. Also -1 Inkmoth for an extra forest.

Here is my list if you guys want a reference:

Lands:
1 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdent Catacomb
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Inkmoth Nexus
6 Forest

Enchantments:
4 Rancor

Instants:
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Vines of Vastwood

Sorceries:
4 Duress

Creatures:
4 Blight Mamba
4 Plague Stinger
4 Ichorclaw Myr
4 Necropede

Sideboard:
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Krosan Grip
1 Reverent Silence
2 Avoid Fate
4 Gravehate
2 Meta call

[zpikduM]

Is it worth it to not run infect nowadays, or is infect making the deck gain a lot more strength?

[Tru3z3rox]

Is it worth it to not run infect nowadays, or is infect making the deck gain a lot more strength?

Infect makes the deck A LOT stronger and faster, but also makes it a bit more vulnerable. There is no infect silhana ledgewalker or troll aesthetic. There are no evasion infectors other than plague stinger like skarrgan pitskulk, silhana, etc. Therefore if you run infect you'd have to run some main deck protection such as 4x duress/thoughtseize and 4 vines of vastwood and a few sideboard options. But if the deck is not prepared the average win for me has been turn 3. It used to be turn 2 when I ran Elvish spirit guide, but I sacrificed a bit of speed for a bit more security with duress mainboard.

Jitte also wrecks infect much more than traditional berserk stompy as that version can slow roll and take a few extra turns in attacking.

[zpikduM]

So its a case of speed vs protection? What would a traditional list look like nowadays?

[NEXUS7]

So its a case of speed vs protection? What would a traditional list look like nowadays?

Maybe, put it out the 4 duress, and get in the 4 ESG.

[Tru3z3rox]

So its a case of speed vs protection? What would a traditional list look like nowadays?

A traditional stompy list?

Probably something similar in the pump department but a creature base of:

4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pitskulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Slippery Boggle
3 Tarmo

Something like that...its probably on the first page of the primer.

[Gui]

A traditional stompy list?

Probably something similar in the pump department but a creature base of:

4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pitskulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Slippery Boggle
3 Tarmo

Something like that...its probably on the first page of the primer.

It is there, yes. My last version can be found there, and if you wanna question it, feel free :)

Currently, the version runs 3 Tarmogoyfs. 4 seems rather too much to be used alongside with Sylvan, Goyf is, indeed, the best backup plan we got when pump fails. Also, I use Sylvan because it can get pretty nuts against a lot of matchs.

Oh, and I think the "Pump Infect" lists should really be discussed at its thread, which is at N&D. I know that it looks like more effective than traditional, but I think each version should be discussed at their right place. The only infect list that could belong in here is Gb with Tained Strike, since it will share the same creature base, and use tained as additional Berserks.

To be honest, I think only the mono G and its splashed versions, Gw, Gb and Gr should be discussed here. Etienne's version is so different that it could easily deserve it's own thread, maybe '3c Stompy' or something like that. Also, I think that people looking for one (G, Gw, Gr, Gb) are not the same looking for the other (GWR).

[zpikduM]

Would Signal Pest have a role in here? Having an essentially unblockable creature seems really strong for a deck like berserk stompy.

[Mr. Safety]

Signal Pest is a bad version of Scryb Sprites. Scryb Sprites already have built in evasion with flying and are a 1/1 to boot. This deck doesn't really rely on multiple creatures...just one pumped up to absurd proportions. Skarrgan Pit-Skulk does the same thing by being huge with grow spells, and usually hits as a 2/2. Even Xantid Swarm is better, because it can keep control from interacting with your combat phase.

I was thinking of Phyresis for this deck, mostly for threats like Ledgewalker and Bogle that have troll-shroud to minimize risk.

Turn 1 Bogle
Turn 2 Phyresis, Invigorate, ESG>>>Berserk, win

Tainted Strike seems pretty awesome, too. Probably better than Phyresia (as it is less risky and falls right into place alongside the other boosters played during combat.)

[wilson]

Hey Guys,

i just tested this list, looks very Promising:


4 Slippery Boggle
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength
4 Invigorate
4 Giant Growth

2 Sylvan Library

18 Forest

The obvious advantage is that you only have creatures that have Trollshroud, and u have 12 virtual, so that should be okay, because u just need 1.

The only flaw this has is that if u only have 1 Zenith in your starting hand u cant use it for accerlation because u need it t2 for boggle, so you only could drop a Seal of strength t1. This rly is the only thing that bothers me...

if u have Zenith + Ledgewalker, u can accerlate via D.Arbor, play second Turn Ledgewalker + Seal or Rancor.. i have to test this some time.

i thought this maybe a good idea because i mainly used the other creatures for chumpblocking once, cause i needed the pumps for attacking... with this build, u can be even more aggressive. also, perish doesnt kill you right away because you always have only 1 creature out.

[Mr. Safety]

I just got some GSZ's and I think it will be incredible in legacy, considering the great pool of cheap green dudes. I like using it on Tarmogoyf, sure, but I think a turn 1 Wild Nacatl, turn 2 Green Sun's Zenith >>> Nacatl #2 is even stronger of a play.

In Berserk Stompy, getting any of your dudes for 2-3 mana? Pretty awesome tech. The best play, by FAR, is the turn 1 GSZ into Dryad Arbor for Berserk though...as mana is almost always the problem with Beserk Stompy.

[NihilObstat]

GSZ looks fun for our deck indeed. Have you tested that list further ?

12 possible creatures just look to weak to me, maybe something like 2 Kavu or 2 Skargan should be included, I believe the minimum should be 16, with 12 critts, if we draw a shrouded one we can use GSZ first turn to get arbor and therefore extra mana for pumping.

Also, when playing Sylvan Library I would recommend to use Fetchlands for sure.

If you try to build a deck with only 12 possible creatures, I could probably fit 4x Street Wraith, and 4x Manamorphose. The idea of running less creatures is to increase the amount of pumps, but it can also screw us by not getting any. And what are 2 Invigorates and 2 Berserk worth with no creature on board?

I would probably take out Sylvan Library and Giant Growth and 1-2 Forest, for those cards ;)

[paeng4983]

not much activity for the past, errr two weeks?
let me just share what happened to me yesterday.
i joined yesterday's tournament ( 70 plus players i think participated)
and i landed 8th after the 7 rounds of swiss. i lost to the
number one seeded (merpok) because of not drawing pump spells
during our game three.
here's my game results (in chronological order)
soul sister 2-0
sliver 2-0
tarmo sligh 2-0
counter_TOP_foundry 2-0
bgw rock 0-2
CAB-jace 0-2
UR painter_grind 2-0

im still using my old build, though with a little tweak, and here it is:
10 forest
7 G_fetches
3 jungle lion
4 nettle sentinel
2 scryb sprites
4 skarrgan pit skulk
4 silhana ledgewalker
4 kavu predator
3 scryb ranger
4 berserk
4 invigorate
4 might of old krosa
4 rancor
3 seal of strength
SB
4 mindbreak trap
4 tormod's crypt
4 vexing susher
3 seeds of innocence

*some of the things that i can still recall
priceless moments
-susher with rancor plus invigorate and friends vs. opponents' (slivers and thopter foundry) counterbalance with SDT
-this happened i think 3x, on my opening turn, scryb sprites being countered by non other than force of will. so sweet when it happens!

[bokwinkle]

Ok, I'm sure it's discussed in here somewhere - but why no vial?

[boneclub24]

Mostly because it just doesn't help us. Generally, people counter the pump, not the creatures, and we have more creatures than they have counter (generally) anyway. Also, playing them at instant-speed doesn't matter much.

Besides, we don't have the type of deck where Vial can be used effectively. Take, for example, Goblins. Goblins have reasons why they don't want to use their land each turn (Wasteland, Rishidan Port), have ways of getting more dudes to Vial in (Goblin Ringleader), and have a nice smooth curve to play with.

[Magic-Style]

Last week i finish 8th on 51 players.
I played this liste:

2 forest
3 savannah
2 taiga
1 plateau
4 windsept heart
4 wooded

4 esg
4 noble hierarch

4 nacatl
4 qasali
4 tarmogoyf
4 kavu predator

4 stp
4 rancor
3 vov
4 invigorate
4 berserk
1 fling

SB:
4 shusher
3 gaddok teeg
3 nature's claim
3 seeds of innocence
2 jitte

Now, i test the new tutor, green sun zenith:

-1 plateau
-4 esg
-1 qasali
+4 tutor
+1 dryad arbor
+1 green fetch

SB:
-1 shusher
-2 jitte
+1 vov
+2 fiery justice

[Magic-Style]

Last week i finish 8th on 51 players.
I played this liste:

2 forest
3 savannah
2 taiga
1 plateau
4 windsept heart
4 wooded

4 esg
4 noble hierarch

4 nacatl
4 qasali
4 tarmogoyf
4 kavu predator

4 stp
4 rancor
3 vov
4 invigorate
4 berserk
1 fling

SB:
4 shusher
3 gaddok teeg
3 nature's claim
3 seeds of innocence
2 jitte

Now, i test the new tutor, green sun zenith:

-1 plateau
-4 esg
-1 qasali
+4 tutor
+1 dryad arbor
+1 green fetch

SB:
-1 shusher
-2 jitte
+1 vov
+2 fiery justice

[Mr. Safety]

Ok, I'm sure it's discussed in here somewhere - but why no vial?

Nice to see you around The Source, Bok!

Short answer: it doesn't fulfill what B-Stompy needs. If it's not a land/mana source, it needs to be a dude. If it's not a dude, it needs to be a pump spell. Plain and simple. You need anywhere from 5-6 cards to actually 'combo out' and win...if you need counterspell protection, Vexing Shusher is your go-to out of the sideboard.

[paeng4983]

does anyone had tried using
BOB as his engine for this deck?

[boneclub24]

It warrants testing I suppose.

Has anyone considered running a more traditional Winter Orb-based stumpy deck that uses Berserk? It seems like it would make us less relyant on Berserk. Of course, it would weaken our aggro matchup greatly, considering that their creatures would be plain better than ours.

[boneclub24]

Been getting some pretty consistent turn 3-4 kills off of this:

Land: 18
16 Forest
2 Tranquil Thicket

Creatures: 18
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Kavu Predator
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

Spells: 24
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
3 Seal of Strength
2 Sylvan Library
3 Vines of Vastwood

Sideboard: 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Gleeful Sabotage
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Vexing Shusher

It's probably not the list though. It's more likely the fact that I've gotten the groove of the deck.

[Zalren]

What do you guys think about using Green Sun's Zenith?

Have 12 or 16 creatures and 4 GSZ to tutor up what you need. I would basically use them as Ledgewalker 5-8 unless I needed Kavu Predator for some reason.

[boneclub24]

What do you guys think about using Green Sun's Zenith?

Have 12 or 16 creatures and 4 GSZ to tutor up what you need. I would basically use them as Ledgewalker 5-8 unless I needed Kavu Predator for some reason.

It seems legit, and I will probably test it. It always sucks to not have Kavu when you have Invigorate.

[paeng4983]

hmmmm im currently tweaking this list:

4 rogue elephant
4 seth tiger
4 harvest wurm
4 llanowar elves
3 scryb ranger
3 spectral bears

4 rancor
4 berserk
4 monsterous growth
4 vines of vastwood
4 seal of strength

16 forest
2 G_forest

[boneclub24]

hmmmm im currently tweaking this list:

4 rogue elephant
4 seth tiger
4 harvest wurm
4 llanowar elves
3 scryb ranger
3 spectral bears

4 rancor
4 berserk
4 monsterous growth
4 vines of vastwood
4 seal of strength

16 forest
2 G_forest

I cannot say enough just how much Scythe Tiger sucks. Reasons can be noted here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=289892).

[Gui]

Ok, this thread is pretty sunk, but I'm still keeping it up-to-date.

My current stable version is this one:


//M-m-m-m-m-mainnn Deck
17 Forest

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
3 Jungle Lion
2 Scryb Sprites
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker

2 Sylvan Library

4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Seal of Strength
4 Giant Growth

//Siiiiiiiiidebooooarders, go for it!
SB: 3 Gleeful Sabotage
SB: 2 Reverent Silence
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Winter Orb
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap


I removed bogle. I don't think I'm going back to Bogle anytime soon, these 2/x swarms are too good.
Also, Lion over Elite: "granted 2/1" has been better than "most of the time 2/3", because when not 2/, Elite really pisses. But easily replaceable by Elite or Tattermunge if you prefer.

Sylvan as 2-of is a Beast, IMO. Play it.

My conclusions also are that Seal is the 4th best pump available, better than MoOK, better than Growth. He's just too good when he's virtually free by Berserk time, and good enough any other time. Play 4.

I'm using Growth over Might because of Tarmogoyf -- 2/x +3/+3 is most of the time enough to go through him. Also, growthing after block step is common now that I can do that.

Sideboard is rather simple:
4 Mindbreak to fight most combo while we try to rush them;
3 Tormods against ichorid, which is enough because of the strength Berserk has in this match (Tip: don't side out pumps);
2 Reverent against Enchantress;
3 Gleeful Sabotage, the swiss army knife, that isn't Nature's Claim only because of Chalice.decks;
3 Winter Orb -- The "new" tech is Winter Orb. It's good against control decks, Black and Blue ones generally, and I'm testing it to some success right now. I'm still up to further tests with Reverent+Orb against CB+Top, without Gleeful.


Well, these are my main mods, it looks a lot like other versions of mine, but I guarantee it's more balanced and faster than before.
I got really good games with it, including against bad matches like black.
I advise you, Monogreen Berserk fan, to test this list.

[]s
Gui

[NesretepNoj]

@Gui: Do you sometimes bring the deck to tournaments? If so, how does it compete these days? If you don't mind, a small tournament report (perhaps just notes) could be entertaining. I've always been a bistading fan of this deck, but I'm too cheap to buy Berserks because of thier limited useablility.

[Gui]

@Gui: Do you sometimes bring the deck to tournaments? If so, how does it compete these days? If you don't mind, a small tournament report (perhaps just notes) could be entertaining. I've always been a bistading fan of this deck, but I'm too cheap to buy Berserks because of thier limited useablility.

No... I'd like to, but I live far from cities running tourneys here, and they are not regular. I tend to bring other decks on these... But I'm willing to take it as soon as I get a chance (reason why I keep it up-to-date). The list above is playtested mostly against friends here and internet buddies.

I reckon everything is more expensive now, Berserk included... probably another reason for it not being played lately... =/

[boneclub24]

@Gui: Have you not been happy with 1-2 cycle lands?

[Gui]

@Gui: Have you not been happy with 1-2 cycle lands?

No. Don't play any land with CiPT, it will slow you down.

[NihilObstat]

Ok, so now that Gui has finally decided to drop Boggle, I think I will also test some more powerful lists not running him and see how it works.

I've also realized though that you also don't run Vines of Vastwood, maybe a meta call? Your friend don't use removal? I think at least Vines would be needed.

My problem right now, is that my other deck is Combo Elves, and they are So strong lately. http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Daniel%20San%20Pedro
We were the 14th deck with most top8 last month, and the 9th deck in January ^^

What I'm saying is that I would be testing more Stompy is Elves weren't so strong right now...

Anyway, I am a monogreen fanatic. Other than Elves, Berserk Stompy and Monogreen Chalice, do you guys know any other good monogreen decks ?

[boneclub24]

Anyway, I am a monogreen fanatic. Other than Elves, Berserk Stompy and Monogreen Chalice, do you guys know any other good monogreen decks ?

Gui and I have been testing a Berserk-less build with moderate success as well.You can also run Aggro NO Elves.

[boneclub24]

Banner looks fancy Gui, but be sure to give that guy I linked you to credit :)

[Gui]

@ Nihil Obstat
Of course, everyone runs removal. I like VoV's protection, but at the same time, I hate its cost as a pump. I just try to avoid 2-for-1's and use Silhana as protection. Nothing is close to what Silhana does, neither VoV nor Bogle.

Anyways, I tryed to balance the deck cast cost, with Seals and small amount of amount of 2ccs, I consider VoV a 2cc pump with a 1cc trick sometimes (not always relevant, not always doable, not always possible to cast with Zerk), so I cut it. Not missing it, tbh, for the deck is not stalling anymore (no VoV clogged hands). Seal on the other hand, run 4.


Spoiled, opinions?

Mutagenic Growth http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manapg.gif
Instant
(http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manapg.gif may be payed with either :g: or 2 life)
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.

[boneclub24]

Spoiled, opinions?

Mutagenic Growth http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manapg.gif
Instant
(http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manapg.gif may be payed with either :g: or 2 life)
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.

This seems really nice. The only problem I'm seeing is weather or not we can fit it IN a deck.

Something like this would have been preferable:

Mutagenic Growth http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manapg.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manapg.gif
Instant
Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.

Or even:

Mutagenic Growth http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manapg.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manapg.gif
Sorcery
Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn.

[NihilObstat]

Hello Gui ^^

So, I think I didn't make myself clear. I meant to say to ofcourse run Silhana, and also add VoV. I will test an only Silhana troll-shrouded deck, and I'll let you know if I think it's protected enough. I cannot say right now.

Also, I have Always been playing 4x Seal of strength, and if you remember I kept saying every page or few pages to everyone to do it too. Seal is freaking Awesome !!!

Mutagenic Growth seems awesome for an Infect stompy. I don't know about Berserk Stompy though...

[Gui]

So, I think I didn't make myself clear. I meant to say to ofcourse run Silhana, and also add VoV. I will test an only Silhana troll-shrouded deck, and I'll let you know if I think it's protected enough. I cannot say right now.
You made yourself clear, yes. ^^

To be honest, I think Bogle's protection is better than VoV's protection. If I felt the need for further protection, I'd use Bogle instead of VoV (probably something like 2x Bogle instead of 2x Scryb in my list -- Not removing the 2/x's as I used to). The deck plays better when balanced in casting cost, and VoV hurts that, I was unsatisfied. And I had to keep track of 2-for-1 all the same.

But test without them first and let me know... I think I got your msn as well, right?

[NihilObstat]

I think you do, but just in case it was: dansanher@yahoo.es

I play online on Cockatrice, MWS doesn't work on my computer, but you should all really try Cockatrice it's a super simple, clean and great program. My account there is Nihilobstat, you should add me and we'll play some games.

[boneclub24]

I think you do, but just in case it was: dansanher@yahoo.es

I play online on Cockatrice, MWS doesn't work on my computer, but you should all really try Cockatrice it's a super simple, clean and great program. My account there is Nihilobstat, you should add me and we'll play some games.

I sent a request. I can use both Cockatrice and MWS.

EDIT: In testing of your build, I'm finding that 2 Thickets are still working best for me Gui.

[paeng4983]

@gui and nhilo, im still using a bogle, although its sitting in my SB list at one piece.
:)

the new "free" pump from the newest expansion?
it only gives two. i'd rather use Mook or seal o g.growth
than that "free pump"

just like gui's list, im running 14 1 drop 2/x creatures for
they're much faster in accumulating damage.

*is looking at etannie's list

[Gui]

IMO, Berserk, Invigorate, Rancor and Seal of Strength are better than the free one.

I can't tell if Might of Old Krosa or Giant Growth are better. My first guess is that GG/MoOK is still better, because of the amount of times I just win reaching opponent's 0 life. Will certainly have to test, tho. Maybe even a split, cute tech with free pump... dunno.

[Gui]

Just a small addendum, Mental Misstep is really strong, and in between being sad because of it's ability to counter 48% of this deck (and ~33% of my other decks), and happy for it being playable in this deck, I believe I'll end up fitting 4 Missteps maindeck and test with them. I didn't want to change my list, because it was doing really well in testings, but now I think it will be worth the try.

[boneclub24]

Just a small addendum, Mental Misstep is really strong, and in between being sad because of it's ability to counter 48% of this deck (and ~33% of my other decks), and happy for it being playable in this deck, I believe I'll end up fitting 4 Missteps maindeck and test with them. I didn't want to change my list, because it was doing really well in testings, but now I think it will be worth the try.

Mental Misstep looks amazing! But do we really need to main deck it?

[Gui]

Mental Misstep looks amazing! But do we really need to main deck it?

That's what I'm willing to figure... no other way but testing, IMO.

[boneclub24]

That's what I'm willing to figure... no other way but testing, IMO.

Yeah, I suppose. What is your playtesting list gonna look like?

[Gui]

Yeah, I suppose. What is your playtesting list gonna look like?
Not sure yet, there's a lot going through my head. Theorycraft fails to explain why a deck should run it or not, and when I think about the good this card could do to the deck, I think about combo, after adding 2~4 MBT from sideboard and have a better chance against them, while not ruining the deck, since the card is powerful.

I think the first step would be testing without it against decks packing it already, and see how it do. Then I can test with it and compare. Lots of work...

But as a scratch, using my list from fist page, something like this:

17 Forest

4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Jungle Lion
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker

2 Sylvan Library
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Seal of Strength
2 Giant Growth
4 Mental Misstep

[NihilObstat]

My current stable version is this one:
//M-m-m-m-m-mainnn Deck[cards]
17 Forest

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
3 Jungle Lion
2 Scryb Sprites
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker

2 Sylvan Library

4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Seal of Strength
4 Giant Growth

I don't see any real reason to run Giant Growth over MooK. I didn't understand what you said that you do it because of Tarmos.
The real deal is that MooK takes us 1 or 2 lives closer to our opponents annihilation.
I'm a bit confused, can you lighten me up?

[paeng4983]

i played my old list yesterday in a legacy tournament where 110 plus players (i think)
participated.

10 lands
7 green fetches

4 skarggan
4 nettle
3 jungle
2 scryb sprites
3 scrby ranger
4 kavu
4 silhana

4 berserk
4 mook
4 invigorate
3 seal
4 rancor

SB
4 cotv
3 seeds of innocence
4 vexing
4 tormod's

i had a 4-3 and here's what i can still remember:
affinity 2-0
both games, skarggan with rancor (4/2) was too much for his 0/2 friends to handle

dredge 2-1
opponent was at 18 life pts, me was like down to 5 or so, on my table i had nettle with rancor and a kavu and on his side, like 4 or 6 zombies. i attacked my pets praying that will not block. and he said "take", then i seized the moment, pumped nettle (4/2) with 2 zerks for lethal damage. :)

counterTOP bant 0-2
lost miserably to his counterTOP lock on both games.

sui 2-1
jitte on bob was pain for my pets to face during game one.
games two and three skarggan pumped with a bunch of enchancers was too much for his vampire nighthawk to handle.

aeon bridge 0-2
jungle lions and friends just watched helplessly as dreadnaught and aeon crushed our dreams of getting our 4th win of the day.

thresh 0-2
grim with basilik collar was pain for non shroud creatures.

junk 2-0
won because for both games, he was getting off color lands..

:)

[boneclub24]

i played my old list yesterday in a legacy tournament where 110 plus players (i think)
participated.

i had a 4-3

That's... not a nice result xD But it's cool you took it to a big tourney. Better luck next time mate!

@Gui: Have you tried out Compost yet like I showed you? The brilliant part of it is that, because dredge needs so many answers, it lets you draw into those answer very easily.

[Gui]

That's... not a nice result xD But it's cool you took it to a big tourney. Better luck next time mate!

@Gui: Have you tried out Compost yet like I showed you? The brilliant part of it is that, because dredge needs so many answers, it lets you draw into those answer very easily.

I haven't... but I like its versatility, because it can go instead of tormods against dredge, and can actually be strong against Bx decks, which are kind of hard. Really nice idea.

[Gui]

I don't see any real reason to run Giant Growth over MooK. I didn't understand what you said that you do it because of Tarmos.
The real deal is that MooK takes us 1 or 2 lives closer to our opponents annihilation.
I'm a bit confused, can you lighten me up?

First you have to understand the diferences between them, which are not just "one is +4/+4; the other is +3/+3". MoOK not being +4/+4 during combat can be abig difference.

Giant Growth can be cast during combat step and grant a better bonus then MoOK in that situation. When there's a goyf/blocker and you want to kill him so that your 2/x's connect latter, +3/+3 usually gives enough to kill him, while +2/+2 doesn't. Besides, when there's a goyf blocker and you got no evasive creatures, but a swarm of lion/nettle/kavu, Trample damage wasted on a 3/4 or 4/5 wall is bad, while with Growth you can pump the creature that is connecting, and Zerk during combat step. The difference in damage is really small and compensated by these tricks of pumping the creature connecting and killing /5 creatures, which is hard with MoOK. What nakes up for the damage loss of not using MoOK are the 11 2/x creatures that I'm using instead of 4-of Bogle.

The main problem I tryed to address is the dependancy on Zerk. I felt my previous lists were too much "I either draw Zerk and connect it, or lose".

All I can say is try it yourself, let me know if/what you don't like. I really like this list, I have been doing way better in testings. I halted tests for a while, cos I'm trying to test stuff at other decks against MM, but I'm certainly going back to it soon.

The maindeck (2x Bogle vs. 2x Scryb) is the last issue I am going to adress, and the Sideboard Compost looks good in theory, I have to test it!

[ryaneriggs]

Hey, relatively new to the Source, but here's a little gem that could help this deck if we are going the infect route:

Glistener Elf (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Glistener Elf)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/images/smilies/mana/g.gif
Creature - Elf Warrior
1/1
Infect

[ryaneriggs]

Here is a proposed Decklist...

4x Land Grant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Land%20Grant)
4x Elvish Spirit Guide (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Elvish%20Spirit%20Guide)
9x Forest (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Forest)

4x Nettle Sentinel (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Nettle%20Sentinel)
4x Quirion Ranger (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Quirion%20Ranger)
4x Silhana Ledgewalker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Silhana%20Ledgewalker)
4x Glistener Elf (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Glistener%20Elf)
4x Scryb Sprites (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scryb%20Sprites)
4x Blight Mamba (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blight%20Mamba)

4x Rancor (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rancor)
4x Vines of Vastwood (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vines%20of%20Vastwood)
4x Invigorate (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Invigorate)
4x Giant Growth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Giant%20Growth)
3x Might of Old Krosa (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Might%20of%20Old%20Krosa)

SB: 3x Scryb Ranger (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scryb%20Ranger)
SB: 3x Ichorclaw Myr (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ichorclaw%20Myr)
SB: 3x Gleeful Sabotage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Gleeful%20Sabotage)
SB: 3x Seedtime (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Seedtime)
SB: 3x Defense Grid (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Defense%20Grid)