[Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm

[alderon666]

I personally love the deck, and people have been trying to get me to "take the training wheels off" (lol) and switch to ANT but personally, I love a deck with answers and also asks the question "can you deal with this? no? kay i win"


WTF?
I'm assuming you're talking about Burning Wish. I wouldn't call it training wheels, between having more cantrips and having to:
- make a good sideboard with relevant wish targets
- deciding when Empty the Warrens is actually gonna get there
- having alternate win conditions like Diminishing Returns
- having answers to MD hate like Gaddock

To me those Preordains look much easier to play with mate.

[Dia_Bot]

The whole 'training wheels' thing is a reference to quote in the video on page 110.

[gonyoda]

WTF?
I'm assuming you're talking about Burning Wish. I wouldn't call it training wheels, between having more cantrips and having to:
- make a good sideboard with relevant wish targets
- deciding when Empty the Warrens is actually gonna get there
- having alternate win conditions like Diminishing Returns
- having answers to MD hate like Gaddock

To me those Preordains look much easier to play with mate.

No no you misunderstand me I much prefer tes over ant. I was commenting on the video in the past page or two where they said that. I agree with you completely that this deck is much more complex and more fun to play with imo. Burning wish ftw.

[jin]

Hello all, I'm new to this site but not new to legacy. I've been paroozing around this forum and I love all the ideas that are being thrown around. Got some questions and ideas of my own to share.

In my searching, I didn't see mention of Eye of Nowhere. Is there a particular reason that I may have missed? seems good to me for a wishable bounce spell.

and I understand that thoughtseize hurts but In my year or so of running this list down below, it has helped a whole heck of a lot more than hurt.

I personally love the deck, and people have been trying to get me to "take the training wheels off" (lol) and switch to ANT but personally, I love a deck with answers and also asks the question "can you deal with this? no? kay i win"

4 lions eye diamond
4 lotus petal
3 chrome mox
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 ad nauseam
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 orim's chant
4 duress
1 thoughtseize
4 dark rit
4 rite of flame
2 undergroud sea
1 volcanic island
1 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest
4 gemstone mine
3 city of brass

sb
3 xantid swarm
2 thoughtseize
1 grapeshot
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 Ill-gotten gains
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor
1 eye of nowhere
1 diminishing returns
1 shattering spree

Ideas?
I've ran this deck at numerous Starcity events and done pretty well...highest i got was t16 though haha.

More lands, but less 5c than Bryant's list.. well at least in the main. Interesting...
what are you losing to in the T16? looks pretty solid.

I would say the training wheels would be the +1 city of brass and -1 chrome mox, since you lose the explosiveness for the land (stability). how's that working out for you?

[gonyoda]

More lands, but less 5c than Bryant's list.. well at least in the main. Interesting...
what are you losing to in the T16? looks pretty solid.

I would say the training wheels would be the +1 city of brass and -1 chrome mox, since you lose the explosiveness for the land (stability). how's that working out for you?

Yeah my list plays one more city and one less mox...and the extra duress and thoughtseize in my main are xantids in his...so pretty close. But what I was losing to was A) charbelcher winning the dice roll and B) a lil bad luck in the clutch round. But other than that its been good. I can't count the number of times I've gone against maindeck hate and eye of nowhere has been there for me. I've personally never killed with grapeshot cause anytime I could the other person would scoop before the grapeshot was even an idea in my head haha.


The land stability is eh. I've noticed that the extra land makes me draw a lot of lands, but then one time I hadto go off without a land. So its back and forth.

[Sturtzilla]

Hey Guys!

I know I have posted a few times here but I felt like I needed to interject about the "Training Wheels" comment. First off, I just finished building my version of TES and it is basically Bryant's list with a few changes in the board. I have been using Eye of Nowhere for one. Anyway, I just finished it off, it might get tweaked here and there, and it is such a fun deck to play. Moreover, the Burning Wishes, give you way more outs (which is generally accepted as good) for more complex and varying situations. It might just be my opinion and/or play style but I prefer this deck to ANT. I had done some serious play testing of both decks to figure out which one I want to ultimately build in real life. I found that TES had fewer blank draws, which again helps to win games. Those are just my two cents. Keep on Stormin'

[gonyoda]

Hey Guys!

I know I have posted a few times here but I felt like I needed to interject about the "Training Wheels" comment. First off, I just finished building my version of TES and it is basically Bryant's list with a few changes in the board. I have been using Eye of Nowhere for one. Anyway, I just finished it off, it might get tweaked here and there, and it is such a fun deck to play. Moreover, the Burning Wishes, give you way more outs (which is generally accepted as good) for more complex and varying situations. It might just be my opinion and/or play style but I prefer this deck to ANT. I had done some serious play testing of both decks to figure out which one I want to ultimately build in real life. I found that TES had fewer blank draws, which again helps to win games. Those are just my two cents. Keep on Stormin'

good deal man.

YES Tes is IMO better. has more answers, has more ways to win *cough* grapeshot for 27 *cough* lol. burning wish is house.

the whole "training wheels" comment is joking on what a commentator said in a live cast a few pages back, and I just like giving that guy crap about it cause in effect, playing TES is taking the training wheels off, not the other way around. ANT (in my personal opinion) is more straightforward, less answers to hate (especially game 1), and it takes more brains to pilot. Now on the other hand, ANT or any storm deck for that matter takes the brains and the knowledge of the deck to pilot, but I personally perfer TES over the other variants of the deck.

storm count = 26 grapeshot? you mad bro? lol

[Bryant Cook]

Eye of Nowhere has never been useful. It's for nothing but showboating, and I know about showboating...

[lorddotm]

Eye of Nowhere has never been useful. It's for nothing but showboating, and I know about showboating...

I got to live the dream once. He had two lands in play, and I EoN, then Iggy, and EoN his other land.

Literally the only time I've ever cast it, but it was the nut.

[Mostly_Harmless]

I was really bored tonight, so I wrote up an analysis of a quick game (well, goldfish) for a local forum. None of it should be particularly revealing to anyone who already knows the deck, but I thought it would be useful to illustrate what you should be thinking about while playing storm. I'd love it if anyone would point out any mistakes I made or any flaws in my reasoning. In addition, if you think it's interesting I could try some more challenging games.


I’m going to attempt to copy Stephen Menendian’s idea for play-by-play analysis of interesting games. I’m really only experienced with storm decks, and at the moment I only have a 3 color version of TES on me. I’m also kind of bored, so here goes.

Since I have no other deck (or opponent, for that matter; I’m on vacation) I’m going to use the most boring opponent in the world: preboard Zoo. In particular, I’ll use a sample hand/draws from Dan Musser’s 2nd place Pittsburgh deck, since that was the first list I stumbled across. The game was actually more boring than you might expect in some respects, since I got an easy turn two kill. That said, I hope this will highlight a few of the interesting thought processes involved in playing storm.

My TES list is also a little odd. I’ve been fiddling with the manabase a bit to see if I can reasonably add a fourth color by playing a few rainbow lands, so there are currently three gemstone mines in the deck. It shouldn’t matter much. Anyways, here’s the list:

3C TES
Maindeck
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
2 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor

The Zoo deck can be found here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39909

Without further ado, let’s go to the game. Zoo won the roll and chose to go first. They opened the following hand:
Arid Mesa, Arid Mesa, Arid Mesa, Goblin Guide, Kird Ape, Path to Exile
Now, this is the one spot where my inexperience with zoo might have caused problems. This looks like a reasonable keep to me against an unknown opponent. It has some dudes (although not the biggest), perfect mana and a removal spell, so they kept.

TES opened this hand:
Duress, Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, Chrome Mox, Rite of Flame, Ad Nauseam, Burning Wish
This is an easy keep. Your mana is great, you have at least one protection spell (the wish can find another one as well) and you have the two best business spells you could ask for. Ad Nauseam is the cheapest business you can draw, which means you can play it faster and can more easily play disruption/cantrips on the same turn. If you draw a ritual, you can play it on turn 1, and otherwise you can certainly play it on turn 2. In addition, this hand can easily play a long game with duress/burning wish or dump a fast empty the warrens.

Turn 1 – Zoo
Zoo cracks an Arid Mesa for Taiga, plays Goblin Guide and swings. (I’m not sure if you should play Kird Ape here instead, but it doesn’t end up mattering. Both plays deal the same amount of damage long term, but kird ape first risks one less land. Guide first keeps storm a little lower on life, which makes Ad Nauseam slightly worse. It also seems like a better creature to expose to removal against an unknown opponent.) The guide reveals another Rite of Flame on top. The life totals are now 18-19.

TES
After drawing, TES’s hand is Rite, Rite, Mox, Ad Nauseam, Duress, Wish, Volc, Sea. What would you do? That’s kind of a trick question, since we can’t actually answer it until we have a plan. The first question you should ask is “how am I going to win?” The obvious answer is to cast Ad Nauseam. A quick check shows that we can’t. While we can get 5 mana, 4 of it is necessarily red. 5 mana is also to low for any other engines, such as Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns or Ill-Gotten Gains. This means that we want to set up for next turn.

On turn 2 we will get one more land (barring waste), so we can probably count on at least 6 mana, potentially including double black from the sea and mox. This means that we will almost certainly be able to play Ad Nauseam. That’s not necessarily a good choice, though. We will certainly be at 16, maybe 14 off another guide, or even lower if our opponent chooses to throw some burn at us. The worst case scenario would be double bolt and fireblast, which would put us to 6. That’s pretty unlikely if they’re playing zoo (which they probably are, given their start), but not unreasonable if they’re playing burn. From 13-16 life we would almost certainly win. At 10 it would be difficult, and we’d almost certainly die from 6. Are there other options? We could get a Diminishing Returns, either this turn or next turn, and play it next turn. This dodges the life issue handily, but is a little risky. Returns gives about a 70% chance to win in the best case scenario, and we’d probably be dead if we missed. In addition, it looks like we can’t actually get double blue next turn without a good topdeck. We’d need to use the volc to play our Rites, so we couldn’t even play Diminishing Returns. Ill-Gotten Gains won’t work either, since the wish will be exiled and we won’t have another tutor to get back. Finally, we could empty for at least 10, probably 12, next turn. Empty, however, is pretty bad against fast aggro decks. It looks like we’re stuck with Ad Nauseam.

So we play Sea into Duress, right? Wrong. While I’d love to duress away a burn spell and be sure our life total stays reasonably high, we actually need that duress for next turn. If we don’t draw a black card or petal, we’ll have to imprint duress on the mox in order to cast Ad Nauseam.

Finally, which land should we play? It only matters if we draw a better one or if our opponent plays wasteland. Realistically, there isn’t a better land. We’ll need red and black next turn anyways, so we can’t draw a better replacement. What if they play wasteland? It seems unlikely, but our opponent might have another guide plus a waste, or maybe several wastes. If that’s the case, we want to play the land we least care to lose or the land that will discourage them from wasting. We can get either color from the mox if necessary, but against zoo we’d much rather imprint the duress than the wish if push comes to shove. In addition, we will certainly need red to use these rites in our hand, so we should hold onto the volcanic.

All that thought, just to play Underground Sea and say go.

Turn 2 – Zoo
Zoo draws another Kird Ape, then plays Arid Mesa and swings with the Guide. TES reveals yet another Rite of Flame. Post combat, Zoo fetches a Plateau and plays both apes. Life is now 16-18.

TES
We draw the Rite of Flame. Is there any reason to change our plan? It doesn’t look like it. We still can’t play Diminishing Returns or use Ill-Gotten Gains. Empty the Warrens got better, since we can now play it for 14 (land, mox imprinting Ad Nauseam, Rite, Rite, Rite, Wish, Empty), but it’s still a bad plan against Zoo. Also, this is the best case scenario for our Ad Nauseam plan. We’re still at 16 and the only burn they can have is a Fireblast.

We have to play the volcanic, two rite of flames and the mox (imprinting duress). We could also play the wish and/or the third rite. Playing the wish is useless, since we don’t know what we need yet. The third rite probably doesn’t matter, but it is slightly better to hold it. We can always play it after Ad Nauseam with our one leftover red and there is a slim chance that we’ll want to infernal tutor for another one. (Note that I would play it if Zoo hadn’t cracked the second fetch, in case they were playing blue zoo with Daze.)

So we play Volcanic Island, Chrome Mox (imprinting Duress), Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Ad Nauseam. We’re left with rite and wish in hand, 1 red mana floating and no untapped mana. We’re at 16 life and storm is 4.

Whenever you Ad Nauseam, you should keep two things in mind. How low can my life total drop and what am I looking for. In this case, we have a five drop left in the deck (the second Ad Nauseam) so we’d like to stop before we hit 5. In addition, our opponent could have Fireblast, so we would ideally stop before 9. This may not be possible and I wouldn’t worry too much about stopping before 6 (when any two drop will put you into fireblast range). We also have access to a lot of red mana (4) and a wish, so we really only need a black mana source and some storm. Let’s flip!

Thoughtseize (15). Doesn’t help, so we go again. Dark Ritual (14). Good, but we can’t cast it yet. Duress (13). Still no good. Polluted Delta, Gemstone Mine, Swamp (13). Unless you haven’t made your land drop, lands don’t really change the equation. We can’t stop, but they’re free. Infernal Tutor (11). That’s doesn’t help us cast anything, but it might make some more storm. Dark Ritual (10). Also good. We’re actually guaranteed enough storm now if we find a black source, since we can play ritual, tutor for another ritual, ritual twice. Chrome Mox (10). Finally, we have a kill. After a quick double check, we stop flipping.

Now we can play mox (imprinting thoughtseize, since it’s the worst black card in our hand), ritual, duress (always check their hand if you can; it never hurts), rite of flame, infernal tutor for ritual, ritual, wish for tendrils, tendrils for 24. You can actually get a lot more storm than this by wishing for an IGG and/or some more tutors, but we’re already 6 over.

So there you have it. It was only two turns long, but there’s a lot to do. Keep in mind that all of this should be fairly automatic. Besides counting mana, I really only paused at all to see if I should play the duress on turn one. If you liked this, let me know and I’ll make another one. Next time I’ll try something more complicated than goldfishing Zoo. Also, if you see any mistakes or think there’s a better line of play, let me know.

[jin]

Yeah my list plays one more city and one less mox...and the extra duress and thoughtseize in my main are xantids in his...so pretty close. But what I was losing to was A) charbelcher winning the dice roll and B) a lil bad luck in the clutch round. But other than that its been good. I can't count the number of times I've gone against maindeck hate and eye of nowhere has been there for me. I've personally never killed with grapeshot cause anytime I could the other person would scoop before the grapeshot was even an idea in my head haha.


The land stability is eh. I've noticed that the extra land makes me draw a lot of lands, but then one time I hadto go off without a land. So its back and forth.

So lack of explosiveness is definitely an issue with your list, since in my playtesting, belcher has never beaten me if he went off and hasn't belched me on the same turn. TES is probably only half a turn behind at most and can win if you really need to on the turn facing down 18 Goblin Tokens or an inactive Goblin Charbelcher.

Furthermore, I think all lists are slight variations of Bryant's list. You really can't move too much in a storm combo deck save the few cantrips and mana slots and choice of protection.


Eye of Nowhere has never been useful. It's for nothing but showboating, and I know about showboating...

I've always wanted to try Eye of Nowhere but never got around to it. I guess it's just not too important.

[Eventide]

Hi,

as a control player i wanted to ask you what´s the best card to name with Meddling Mage against TES. Does Meddling Mage cause some difficulties for you at all?

[OurSerratedDust]

It isn't too bad on its own, but Meddling Mage combined with counters as backup can be pretty devastating. I remember a discussion I had with some guys in the past, and we figured out that naming Burning Wish was usually the correct play. I could be wrong about that though.

[Bryant Cook]

Hi,

as a control player i wanted to ask you what´s the best card to name with Meddling Mage against TES. Does Meddling Mage cause some difficulties for you at all?

I created the deck years ago to win around Meddling Mage, I'd try something better against us. Probably Cannonist.

[jrp]

Re: Eye of Nowhere - Only time I ever should have used it was when an Enchantress player, played turn 2 Runed Halo naming Tendrils. However, EoN would have been low style, so instead I wished for Diminishing Returns, into AdN, into Grapeshot for 23...

[gonyoda]

anyone here going to starcity Richmond? I am and will be piloting TES.

[Dark Ritual]

I got to live the dream once. He had two lands in play, and I EoN, then Iggy, and EoN his other land.

Literally the only time I've ever cast it, but it was the nut.

You, sir, are my hero. IGGing back the EoN gets you super bonus points; the fact that you had UUUU floating around to waste on EoN twice is just pro.

But yeah, as far as actually using eye of nowhere for a purpose other than showboating...it's not good. It's only really an awesome spell for showboating though when you EoN their land or something worthless just because you can.

[Diprivan]

So, due to being very busy professionally I hadn't entered a real life tournament since 9 months or so. (God bless cockatrice)

Yesterday I participated in a qualifier for Belgian Nationals, 79 people showed. I played TES to a mediocre 5-2 finish and a 11th place.
Lost to nut drawing reanimator and "I have 15 hate cards for combo in side" BUGstill.

Some observations:
- mental misstep didn't kill this deck.
- more and more rockish builds emerge to win the mystic vs mystic battle. Less fow, more fun for us.
- xantid remains a powerhouse.
- most people don't expect combo anymore, the look on their faces when you kill them turn 2 is priceless.

Fun of the day:
I'm at 5 facing patriot. It's game 2, I killed him game 1 with grapeshot. He has 1 fow, 1 mm, 2 snare. He says: "no adn for you, so no grapeshot this time" I play out my hand, bait his counters, diminishing returns, drawing junk, only option is to iggy returning returns (he was at high life because of batterskull, so couldn't tendrils here yet), returns again drawing like a pro, burning wish for tendrils (storm 16, putting him at 1, me at 37), infernal, saccing some leds into adn, draw half my deck, grapeshot for 32. Good times. He was a nice guy though :wink:

edit: getting back EoN with ill gotten gains is flat out brilliant.

[Bryant Cook]

I picked up a third Japanese Foil Empty The Warrens and a second Japanese Foil Ad Nauseam. I'm going to try cutting the MD Warrens for the second Nauseam. It gets sided out a lot in the current metagame. I'm slightly hesitant because MD Warrens steals sooo many rounds where blue players decide to be greedy and wait to counter the business. However, there's also all of those times I draw it and I think sarcastically, "Great".

EDIT: Jupiter Games had a Japanese Foil Grapeshot in their case for 10$, they're welcome.

[Diprivan]

I was thinking the same after yesterday. Stupid batterskull made racing with tokens quite difficult and etw never was any good vs ichorid, zoo and other fast aggro.
Burning wish still gives us access to it G1, so why am I so hesitant to cut it? Damn, that card has won me so many matches I'm emotionally attached to it.:confused:

[OurSerratedDust]

I've been playing with the second AN main decked for a while and I couldn't be happier with it.

[imRauSch]

Doesn't the possibility to play EtW T1 off an IT + 4 mana justify to keep it in the MD? Especially on the play against blue decks, before they are able to brainstorm into any sort of denial..

[Shimi]

I have cutted the MD EtW for the Second Ad Nausean pos-NPh and it has been amazing, top 8'ed 3 from 3 tournaments since the change. EtW isn't very good with all these Deeds/Batterskulls around.
Also if Junk discard your 1° Adn you get the second one and dicipline them.

[lorddotm]

I picked up a third Japanese Foil Empty The Warrens and a second Japanese Foil Ad Nauseam. I'm going to try cutting the MD Warrens for the second Nauseam. It gets sided out a lot in the current metagame. I'm slightly hesitant because MD Warrens steals sooo many rounds where blue players decide to be greedy and wait to counter the business. However, there's also all of those times I draw it and I think sarcastically, "Great".

EDIT: Jupiter Games had a Japanese Foil Grapeshot in their case for 10$, they're welcome.

Already made the switch, actually did it right after we talked about it. It's been really good.

[egosum]

I made this switch too and tested quite good, but depending on your meta I ' d recommend to change the ToA for ADN instead of EtW. The point is that When you are Going for ToA it normally doesn't matter if it is in the main or side because you play ToA off ADN or you just have the tools to make a big chain of tutors so normally you can go for a BW instead of IT, and EtW in the main seems more important for those explosive starts where you can just steal the game with IT/BW + LED in the oppening.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Bryant Cook]

I made this switch too and tested quite good, but depending on your meta I ' d recommend to change the ToA for ADN instead of EtW. The point is that When you are Going for ToA it normally doesn't matter if it is in the main or side because you play ToA off ADN or you just have the tools to make a big chain of tutors so normally you can go for a BW instead of IT, and EtW in the main seems more important for those explosive starts where you can just steal the game with IT/BW + LED in the oppening.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

This is interesting. I think I'm going to try this.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I made this switch too and tested quite good, but depending on your meta I ' d recommend to change the ToA for ADN instead of EtW. The point is that When you are Going for ToA it normally doesn't matter if it is in the main or side because you play ToA off ADN or you just have the tools to make a big chain of tutors so normally you can go for a BW instead of IT, and EtW in the main seems more important for those explosive starts where you can just steal the game with IT/BW + LED in the oppening.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Not sure why I haven't thought of this (me = dumb I guess), it makes perfect sense. Tendrils is usually the worst card in the deck for me to draw in an opener, unlike ETW. The one drawback I can see is that it makes the Burning Wish -> IGG play cost two more mana, but I rarely use that line of play anymore anyways. It also makes us more vulnerable to Extirpate targeting Burning Wish.

[ninja_attack]

Not sure why I haven't thought of this (me = dumb I guess), it makes perfect sense. Tendrils is usually the worst card in the deck for me to draw in an opener, unlike ETW. The one drawback I can see is that it makes the Burning Wish -> IGG play cost two more mana, but I rarely use that line of play anymore anyways. It also makes us more vulnerable to Extirpate targeting Burning Wish.

The only time I have ever wanted to draw Tendrils is against landstill variants where I have time to set up. This is usually in game 2 when they know what I'm playing, so ToA looks like the place to cut.

[Dark Ritual]

Extirpating burning wish means they have to counter it with a piece of countermagic or make you discard it. The discarding it due to duress or what not into extirpate on wish is unlikely IMO and if you suspect extirpate you board in the 1 tendrils for something.

But yeah there's nothing I hate more than drawing tendrils in storm combo, except when I'm facing landstill variants where you just cast it from hand after using their countermagic for storm. EtW is awkward against SFM batterskull if you don't get it turn 1 on the play and they go SFM into batterskull.

[ComboMan]

Actual core:
1- Ad
1- EtW
1- Tendrils

Other possibilities:

{***: No-Tendrils core)

(A)[more consistant]
2- AdN
1- Tendrils

(B)***
2- AdN
1- EtW

(C)***
3- AdN

(D)
1- AdN
1- Tendrils
1- Open Slot

(E)***
2- AdN
1- Open slot

(F)
1- AdN
1- Tendrils
1- Iggy

(G)***
1- AdN
2- EtW

I've already tried all minus the (G) core. IMO it's necessary to tendrils be in the deck. Sometimes you do not open the wishes with AdN , and you are too short on mana to get Tutor>Wish>Tendrils.

The (F) core isn't too bad if your meta game is running a low percentage of blue decks.

The (A) core is the way to go for now IMO.

(G) core is nice if you don't care about the lack of Tendrils in MD. And (E) is nice if you want to put more protec/ cantrip/ tutor(?)/Land/ Mox/ Cabal ritual in the deck. But I prefer to go for the (D) core in that case.

The (C) core is too greedy and suicidal.

[Arew]

Man, these changes are pretty big, I'm kind of excited to try them, but I feel like if you are cutting the ToA from main, what do people think of adding it to the sideboard, so we still have two in the 75. That way we can side it back in against the decks that we want it in our hand against.

[ComboMan]

Actual core:
1- Ad
1- EtW
1- Tendrils

Other possibilities:

{***: No-Tendrils core)

(A)[more consistant]
2- AdN
1- Tendrils

(B)***
2- AdN
1- EtW

(C)***
3- AdN

(D)
1- AdN
1- Tendrils
1- Open Slot

(E)***
2- AdN
1- Open slot

(F)
1- AdN
1- Tendrils
1- Iggy

(G)***
1- AdN
2- EtW

I've already tried all minus the (G) core. IMO it's necessary to tendrils be in the deck. Sometimes you do not open the wishes with AdN , and you are too short on mana to get Tutor>Wish>Tendrils.

The (F) core isn't too bad if your meta game is running a low percentage of blue decks.

The (A) core is the way to go for now IMO.

(G) core is nice if you don't care about the lack of Tendrils in MD. And (E) is nice if you want to put more protec/ cantrip/ tutor(?)/Land/ Mox/ Cabal ritual in the deck. But I prefer to go for the (D) core in that case.

The (C) core is too greedy and suicidal.

[Shimi]

@No Tendrils: I like ToA much more than EtW.. I killed many landstills with ToA from hand and also some times you can't find BW or have alot of mana to IT-> BW.
Just my 2cents.

[metalhead]

If ppl are really serious about cutting tendris main, ide suggest adding a grapeshot main. That way you still have a win condition that doesn't require burning wish, and it can be used pre combo to deal with problimatic hatebears or lords. I even used it at gen con last year to kill an iona naming black. These might be corner cases but ide hate not having at least one md win condition

[Dark Ritual]

Well you theoretically have a win con main in EtW that you can tutor for and cast for far more than 20 goblins that if they don't have an answer you just win next turn since you presumably cast AdN and got a lot of storm off of it at least I generally get tons of storm when I cast AdN from a high life total sometimes even a low life total.

Grapeshot main is interesting I'll admit that. You can tutor chain into it effectively since it costs just 2 mana, it's friendly with AdN, and the utility of it is quite good against hatebears that pop up, even canonist since you can go petal grapeshot x2 the canonist or any artifact mana for example.

Cutting the tendrils from the MD might seem like you're breaking a sacred law of storm combo but I guess it's never really been tried before. It merits testing though on whether cutting the tendrils main ever affects your ability to kill them.

[Bryant Cook]

If ppl are really serious about cutting tendris main, ide suggest adding a grapeshot main. That way you still have a win condition that doesn't require burning wish, and it can be used pre combo to deal with problimatic hatebears or lords. I even used it at gen con last year to kill an iona naming black. These might be corner cases but ide hate not having at least one md win condition

There would still be ETW.

[JJ_JKidd]

It's amazing how many small interactions happen that many of us let go unrecognized. Including myself, I've played T.E.S the last 6 or so years and recently learned something I've never even thought of. I was reading a German or French report (<3 google translator), where a guy was in a tough situation, low on life and his only out was Ad Nauseam. His hand was Rite, Ritual, Chrome, Ad Nauseam, Lion's Eye Diamond. He cast Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, in response to the imprint trigger, Ad Nauseam, response, crack Lion's Eye Diamond. Let Nauseam resolve, imprint/brilliant.

This play has never once occurred to me and I'm dying to do it! It's a very situational event, however, the play has just never run across my mind. I figured I'd let it soak into everyone's brain too.

This deck really is amusing. A million lines-of-play so to speak. The most similar that I had was crack LED in response to my Brainstorm (having Pondered a turn earlier and leaving AdN at the top after drawing my usual draw step card), float BBB then with 2 mana available, cast AdN off Brainstorm.

I suggest that we post our most ridiculous lines of play that led to victory? :laugh:

[Final Fortune]

If you cut the Tendrils of Agony for Grape Shot could you consistently kill with it? Storm 20 seems like a stretch without Burning Wish shenanigans.

[metalhead]

Grapeshot was just a suggestion IF you cut tendrils(not sure I actually agree with this), as far as ETW I was under the impression ppl were talking about cutting ETW & tendrils. My bad, one big problem with ETW however is island walking merfolk can still kill you and batterskulled creatures still fly over and zoo can still untap and burn you out. Grapeshot wins now.

As far as neet tricks, its easy to ramp up, grapeshot someone, then bw breaking leds for tendrils for lethal, switching the. Grapeshot and tendrils in this situation makes it much harder. This is something I was testing a year ago in 3cTES, Because I won 3 matches in the legacy champs prelim at gencon against countertop using the grapeshot+tendrils plan.

[stasis]

I play 1st page list at the moment, but now i want to test 2 IGGI in the sideboard, to be able to side one in for the warrens or other X card and still have one in the board. My ide is that we now use 2-4 Xantid Swarms and 3-4 Chants effects for a calculated win.

Only thing that stopped me doing this in a turnament so far is the turn 1 8+ goblins ftw vs the twats that counter the wrong stuff.


I seen all feature matches, is there any where you can see the hand TES POV with maybe some commentery?
AKA There was a guy that made a cool video serie for 43lands.

[Bryant Cook]

I've updated the opening post with...

1. My last feature match.
2. Aj Kerrigan and Michael Caffreys article involving storm.
3. My current list.

You'll notice some things within the list.

1. Maindeck Tendrils, in close games it's really necessary.
2. No maindeck Empty the Warrens, with the downslide of Merfolk and the increase in Batterskull this card isn't cutting it.
3. No Xantid Swarm. As much as I love this bug, he's not doing it for me right now. People keep hands with Bolt/Swords against me because of him, then he gets plowed. I want to punish them for it, he's no longer a surprise.
3. Defense Grid, welcome back 1998. Card is a great answer for the Mental Misstep decks of right now.

[Tammit67]

1. Maindeck Tendrils, in close games it's really necessary.
2. No maindeck Empty the Warrens, with the downslide of Merfolk and the increase in Batterskull this card isn't cutting it.
3. No Xantid Swarm. As much as I love this bug, he's not doing it for me right now. People keep hands with Bolt/Swords against me because of him, then he gets plowed. I want to punish them for it, he's no longer a surprise.
3. Defense Grid, welcome back 1998. Card is a great answer for the Mental Misstep decks of right now.

These are all things that have crossed my mind this week, including the nod to grid. I've been sticking with the swarm so far, but he's looking tenuous even for me, where merfolk is still around enough. My store's legacy players don't follow trends enough for me to be able exploit recent SCG events.

The biggest thing with this board though is working out what goes in and comes out. Have you found Meltdown and Shat spree to be necessary?

[JJ_JKidd]

These are all things that have crossed my mind this week, including the nod to grid. I've been sticking with the swarm so far, but he's looking tenuous even for me, where merfolk is still around enough. My store's legacy players don't follow trends enough for me to be able exploit recent SCG events.

The biggest thing with this board though is working out what goes in and comes out. Have you found Meltdown and Shat spree to be necessary?

Ive been telling this Defense Grid thing after Misptep was printed, only that the card I thought of was City of Solitude. Concept is equally same, though.

[Dia_Bot]

The thing about defense grid is that it doesn't always combine well with duress/TS, it works wonders with chant effects though.

[thefringthing]

everythingitouchdies and I talked bit about the use of Defense Grid in Belcher shortly before GP Providence. It doesn't seem terrible.

[jin]

3. No Xantid Swarm. As much as I love this bug, he's not doing it for me right now. People keep hands with Bolt/Swords against me because of him, then he gets plowed. I want to punish them for it, he's no longer a surprise.


Exactly what I said about swarm a few pages back,.. I guess the solution is Defense Grid.

has anyone tried boarding in the second tendrils from the sideboard (or grapeshot) against decks that play misstep. Building storm off of their countermagic and and casting a natural tendrils is great. I'm reluctant to play defense grid since (like Bryant said) it is so 1998...

[Sea R Hill]

The problem of Defense Grid is that it costs :2:.

It means that:
-it will not get on the table before turn 2,
-it will require to land petals and moxen on the table in order not to get hit by Daze,
-it costs us tempo because it refrains us from playing other spell like cantrips, making the deck slower (I would play UB ANT if I'd want to play a slower storm combo deck).


Why not play Pact of Negation instead of Defense Grid? It seems more all-in, but it doesn't get hit by MMS like Defense Grid, it costs us no mana and no tempo loss and it can do more things.

[HokusSchmokus]

The problem of Defense Grid is that it costs :2:.

It means that:
-it will not get on the table before turn 2,
-it will require to land petals and moxen on the table in order not to get hit by Daze,
-it costs us tempo because it refrains us from playing other spell like cantrips, making the deck slower (I would play UB ANT if I'd want to play a slower storm combo deck).


Why not play Pact of Negation instead of Defense Grid? It seems more all-in, but it doesn't get hit by MMS like Defense Grid, it costs us no mana and no tempo loss and it can do more things.

You can still play Defense Grid turn 1. Also, I think it's a higher tempo loss if my spells are getting countered. As with pact, it might work though I don't like the idea of multiple counters by the opponent, you only having 1 pact and not being able to pay it's trigger.

[Fatal]

Pact is terrible combine with LED.

[alderon666]

With the recent changes I've noticed that the only cards that keeps on the gold lands manabase are the 3 Chants.

I freaking love Chants but is it worth playing a "crummy" manabase just to play them? Let's lay down some good points about the gold lands:
- Makes mana of any color, "no" color screw
- Gemstone doesn't cost any life, ever
- You can play spells of any color including the best protection spell ever

Bad points:
- Gold lands replace fetchlands making Brainstorm(and Ponder, to an extent) worse
- Fetchlands are better at getting theshold, even though we don't play Cabal Ritual
- You can't play a basic land, making 1-lander + 2 cantrip a loser's hand to Wasteland
- City of Brass can cost you a lot of life in a cantrip heavy hand
- You can actually run out of targets for your fetchlands somewhat easily

I've actually been wanting to play Chants in my UBR storm decks, just because it's that good. But I believe this topic at least deserves some attention.

[Bryant Cook]

With the recent changes I've noticed that the only cards that keeps on the gold lands manabase are the 3 Chants.

I freaking love Chants but is it worth playing a "crummy" manabase just to play them? Let's lay down some good points about the gold lands:
- Makes mana of any color, "no" color screw
- Gemstone doesn't cost any life, ever
- You can play spells of any color including the best protection spell ever

Bad points:
- Gold lands replace fetchlands making Brainstorm(and Ponder, to an extent) worse
- Fetchlands are better at getting theshold, even though we don't play Cabal Ritual
- You can't play a basic land, making 1-lander + 2 cantrip a loser's hand to Wasteland
- City of Brass can cost you a lot of life in a cantrip heavy hand
- You can actually run out of targets for your fetchlands somewhat easily

I've actually been wanting to play Chants in my UBR storm decks, just because it's that good. But I believe this topic at least deserves some attention.

I was working on a list earlier in the week that ran less Chant. The manabase was...

3 Gemstone
2 City
4 Fetch
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Duals

I haven't tested it at all yet which is why I havent posted it. The fact that it's 3c doesn't make me want to run more fetches, I still want to be able to support UBr quite easily. Then W if need be.

My protection package was looking like...

4 Duress
2 Chant
1 ? (Thoughtseize, Inquistion, something better?)

I'm not a fan of Thoughtseize's lifeloss at all and would like to find something better.

TES

3 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
2 Orim’s Chant
1 Thoughtseize
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Defense Grid
2 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
1 Shattering Spree

[Final Fortune]

Defense Grid seems really solid, if for no other reason it's immune to Mental Misstep and it forces them to play Vendilion Clique pre-emptively on their turn.

As an aside, did somebody do the math to show 3 Ad Nauseam, 3 Infernal Tutor MD wasn't viable?

[metalhead]

The problem with more ad nausiums less infernals is it makes the most powerful accel LED worse, more often having to rely on rituals and god forbid chrome mox to play ad nausium. Making hands with multiple LEDs worse. And making us weeker to misstep

[alderon666]

While I also don't appreciate the extra life loss from Thougthseize, in a Maverick crowed metagame, it has its a leg up when discarding Aven Mindcensor and Canonist.

Also I would like to get some discussion rolling on why is Rite of Flame stronger than Cabal Ritual. One mana rituals are better against Daze effects and Rite of Flame has a increasing returns in multiples, which pairs well with Infernal Tutor. Plus, it gets us the RR we need to play BW -> Empty the Warrens.

The problem I have with it is that it costs one mana. That means MM counters it.

Having a 2-mana ritual that has its merits on being MM proof. Because the current buid completely fails on getting threshold, the deck would need some changes to support it. Dark Ritual is too powerful to even question, but does Rite of Flame carry its weight?


I probably shouldn't even be posting this here, because all the changes I'm proposing basically turning TES into TNT. But I think it's worth questioning why we use certain cards instead of others, especially when there's such a big metagame shift like the one cause by MM.

[Bryant Cook]

While I also don't appreciate the extra life loss from Thougthseize, in a Maverick crowed metagame, it has its a leg up when discarding Aven Mindcensor and Canonist.

Also I would like to get some discussion rolling on why is Rite of Flame stronger than Cabal Ritual. One mana rituals are better against Daze effects and Rite of Flame has a increasing returns in multiples, which pairs well with Infernal Tutor. Plus, it gets us the RR we need to play BW -> Empty the Warrens.

The problem I have with it is that it costs one mana. That means MM counters it.

Having a 2-mana ritual that has its merits on being MM proof. Because the current buid completely fails on getting threshold, the deck would need some changes to support it. Dark Ritual is too powerful to even question, but does Rite of Flame carry its weight?


I probably shouldn't even be posting this here, because all the changes I'm proposing basically turning TES into TNT. But I think it's worth questioning why we use certain cards instead of others, especially when there's such a big metagame shift like the one cause by MM.

Where are these Maverick crowded Metagames? I surely haven't seen any. Regardless, we shouldn't be changing our decks for a Wg deck full of Grizzly Bears.

Do people really counter your Rite of Flames with Mental Misstep? I've found they use them on more relevant spells. People still play Daze and Spellpierce which hits Cabal Ritual hard too. Stoneblade plays Spellsnares maindeck, we could argue that against Cabal Ritual.

In my eyes Rite of Flame has much more value, we've argued this several other times. It seems like it comes up once a year. The only difference is Mental Misstep. However, people don't counter Rites with Misstep, even if they did you could take Advantage of that. Play out your Rites, Rituals, then your Duress/Chant/Thoughtseize.

TNT isn't a deck, it's 3c TES, we don't need to rename a deck every time 3 cards change. We're working on solving Misstep with Defense Grid, there's not a need to deconstruct the deck due to misstep. Not to mention, Cabal Ritual would only make their job easier paired with Thoughtseize to kill ourselves regularly.

[jin]

I like Rite of Flame for Pyroblast. Yeah, I've never had my Rite of Flame countered. They always wait for Dark Ritual.

Cabal Ritual also seems like it requires the deck to run too much extra stuff just to cater to it. What a needy card. Rite of Flame never asked for anything!

Anyway, I'm dying on the StoneBlade match up. Any tips?

Instead of a second Ad Nauseam to fight StoneBlade, have any of you considered boarding in the second Tendrils? I think using their counter magic against them is simply more effective than going for a big storm engine. What do you say?

[Final Fortune]

The problem with more ad nausiums less infernals is it makes the most powerful accel LED worse, more often having to rely on rituals and god forbid chrome mox to play ad nausium. Making hands with multiple LEDs worse. And making us weeker to misstep

That's not a reason, while decreasing Infernal Tutor decreases the utility of Lion's Eye Diamond, increasing Ad Nauseam increases the utility of all non Lion's Eye Diamond acceleration as well as makes the deck slightly faster overall. Furthermore, I disagree replacing Infernal Tutor with Ad Nauseam even reduces the utility of Lion's Eye Diamond, because the more copies of Ad Nauseam you have the more likely you are to be able to stack Lion's Eye Diamond and cantrips into one off the top of your deck. Really, the only argument I see for not playing +X Ad Nauseam is that each additional Ad Nauseam provides a greater chance of losing the game to damage from a higher average casting cost and/or more frequently drawing into a single copy of Ad Nauseam.

It seems 2x is acceptable, but as far as I know, no one has argued for/against 3x or done the math to support their argument one way or the other. Considering the Ari Lax deck was playing an Ill Gotten Gains, 2 Grim Tutors, 4 Cabal Rituals and Thought Seize for a similar number of 4cc + cards, a higher average cc and more random damage from Grim Tutor and Thought Seize it seems like it should be viable from a glance.

[ninja_attack]

Anyway, I'm dying on the StoneBlade match up. Any tips?

Instead of a second Ad Nauseam to fight StoneBlade, have any of you considered boarding in the second Tendrils? I think using their counter magic against them is simply more effective than going for a big storm engine. What do you say?

I agree, I am having trouble with that matchup and with the team america lists that are similar to Gerry T's list. For reference http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39910

[Diprivan]

Anyway, I'm dying on the StoneBlade match up. Any tips?

Instead of a second Ad Nauseam to fight StoneBlade, have any of you considered boarding in the second Tendrils? I think using their counter magic against them is simply more effective than going for a big storm engine. What do you say?

Batterskull >>> Tendrils out of hand because of the lifelink.

[jin]

Batterskull >>> Tendrils out of hand because of the lifelink.

What I mean is Natural Tendrils is good against decks that pack a lot of countermagic. I must have gotten the ideas mixed up. I didn't want to mean the Natural Tendrils is better against Batterskull. I think Batterskull alone is generally not an issue since its clock is relatively slow.

[ninja_attack]

Played in a local tournament for some duals today, around 40-50 people showed up and i went 4-2 (8-6 in games) and ended up in 9th.......and I only grapeshotted 2 people.

[Diprivan]

.......and I only grapeshotted 2 people.

Ooh, poor boy, should I make you some cookies?

(4-2 isn't bad, what did you lose to?)

[Tammit67]

Went 3-2 yesterday at a 45 man, dropping before the last round since my tie breakers were shit. Losses were to Matt Elias with Reanimator and Merfolk with 2 daze, waste, force, spell pierce and a clock. Beat NO Bant (Why the hell do you board in cannonist when 1/20 people play storm at these things) and 2 non blue decks (Burn and BWR punishing fires).

Despite having defense grid sided in for 5 games, only ever saw it once (against merfolk), and it was forced so I can't really comment on how much of a beating it would have been had it resolved. Two ad naus was the best change all day.

[Shimi]

Played yesterday at a 30+ man and finished 3-3, 6 rounds.I beat Merfolks(with Mindbreak Trap SB) 2-0(grapeshot both times), Burn(2-0, iggy both times) , RG(I don't know what the hell he was playing).
Lost to BGW(win g1 but mulled to 5 at games 2 and 3 and drew only petals when rituals/led would give me the win), Mirror(cast Adn at 19 with land drop and did not find a petal/land/mox at g1, g2 I mull to 6 play land pass and he has duress taking my LED(which would have killed him on my t2 with iggy loop) then topdeck the mana source to Adn no t2 and killed me, he also was playing 2 Adn and liked it all day).My only "fair" lose was to NO RUG where I killed him fast in g1 after protec but then lose g2/g3 cause could not find a second bussiness or silence to force him using his Clique(which I knew has in his hand all time and he slow rolled it).

So my SB was 1 Pyro and 3 Xantid.. now I'm really thinking about a 2/2 split back because Pyro can deal with Cliques.Also I would like if Defense Grid is beeing good for anyone cause it also solves clique problems.

[Tammit67]

So my SB was 1 Pyro and 3 Xantid.. now I'm really thinking about a 2/2 split back because Pyro can deal with Cliques.Also I would like if Defense Grid is beeing good for anyone cause it also solves clique problems.

Against the 3 blue decks I boarded it in against, it would have won me the game had i drawn it/resolved it. I like it way more than swarm right now.

[Malakai]

TNT isn't a deck, it's 3c TES, we don't need to rename a deck every time 3 cards change.

I laughed, and agreed.

For the people dying to Batterskull: Duress it away before they play it. They go from having a fast clock to needing to draw Clique.

Defense Grid was meh in UB and UBr. It just ends up forcing them to play their counter on the correct spell rather than messing up. Perhaps TES can leverage it better, but I imagine the results will be the same. I'm going to try replacing 2 Thoughtseize with 2 Flusterstorm, but that plan has diminishing returns the more hate-bears your meta has.

[OurSerratedDust]

I've been messing around with Flusterstorm as well. Being able to hit their Hymn's and Thoughtseizes seems pretty good, in addition to protecting your combo.

[Wave]

So my SB was 1 Pyro and 3 Xantid.. now I'm really thinking about a 2/2 split back because Pyro can deal with Cliques.Also I would like if Defense Grid is beeing good for anyone cause it also solves clique problems.

Was running it to and from for months in my meta up until Time Spiral was unbanned to fight two Solidarity and one Faerie player and it was always a beast against those decks and all other counter based decks. Tested it again a couple weeks ago although in a slightly different build than Bryant's and they are as much a beating as usual. The board plan was 7 Chant/Discard effects Main and 3 extra Defence Grids post board upping the disruption count to 10.

When the card resolve it acts as a tempo card, since the opponent knows Ad Nauseam based combo can go off from turn two. If they tap out, then you have a free combo turn, this way it can act as a timewalk against some players. However I can't recommend playing it against Hive Mind decks as protection but you should be able to beat that deck anyway.


Defense Grid was meh in UB and UBr. It just ends up forcing them to play their counter on the correct spell rather than messing up. Perhaps TES can leverage it better, but I imagine the results will be the same. I'm going to try replacing 2 Thoughtseize with 2 Flusterstorm, but that plan has diminishing returns the more hate-bears your meta has.

The difference is Chant and Diminishing Returns and to a lesser degree Ill-Gotten Gains, Either of the last two is a house with Defence Grid

[Deviruchi]

I like the Defense Grip replacement of Xantid Swarm because:

a) NO RUG, StoneBlade & BUG are tier 1 decks now and X.Swarm often suck vs them
b) Merfolks are almost dead (?) and even Alex Bertoncini switched to NO RUG
c) Defense Grid curiously fight Vendilion Clique which is a huge threat and because of MMS, Pyroblast is not enough.

I miss X.Swarm and Pyroblast a little bit vs Reanimator, Merfolk and S&T decks but these decks are a little less common and common on top tables than those three I mentioned earlier. I have a positive feeling about D.Grid but from DDFT perspective (discard + chants / chants and d.grid + 1 PoN / Flusterstorm in SB). I tried it mostly because I wanted a more stable manabase and D.Grid is huge especially in heavy chant version. I'm curious if it stick to TES.

@Batterskull: Yes, I agree that discard is good vs. that card. Resolved gives you ton of time to sculpt perfect hand and win when you can / have to without AdN. I wouldn't side in second Tendrils. This strategy is mostly for UB ANT, here having ToA in SB is important. I would rather play 2 ToA in SB in Landstil-Caw Blade metagame and side in 1, than siding in the only 1 ToA from SB for game 2&3.

[Malakai]

Merfolk still makes up 10-15% of the metagame in most tournaments. I wouldn't call that dead.

[ninja_attack]

Ooh, poor boy, should I make you some cookies?

(4-2 isn't bad, what did you lose to?)

I'll take white chocolate macadamia nut
Here's a recipe: http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/white-chocolate-macadamia-nut-cookies-iii/detail.aspx

Anyways, I lost to a show and tell hivemind deck. In game 1 I kept a potential turn 1 hand but didnt do it in fear of force, and was severly punished for it (so pseudo-punt?!) and second game i resolved some bees and he had naked hivemind, but i was not drawing business and then he slaughter pacted my bees and then pact of negationed that...

My other loss was to the show and tell/Through the breach deck, where he had lots of MD spell pierce in game 1 and threw my mana off by 1 to stop him from dying then plays emrakul. next game i keep a slow hand, he plays jace turn 3 bounces my xantid and draws an approximate "fuck-ton" of cards and i lose to emrakul.

[jin]

Hi, besides my trouble with stoneblade: FOW + Mental Misstep + Spell Pierce + Clique + Ancestral Visions

I'm now having trouble with NO rUG: FOW + Mental Misstep + Daze + Spell Pierce + Clique + heavy pressure from goyf and Progenitus

Any tips?

[Deviruchi]

Did you try discard+chants and d.grid strategy? There is really not much more you can do. We cut Swarms and Pyro to get better angle vs them, I'm trying also -1 Duress +1 Silence strategy but I'm not sold yet.

Cheers & keep testing

[jin]

Did you try discard+chants and d.grid strategy? There is really not much more you can do. We cut Swarms and Pyro to get better angle vs them, I'm trying also -1 Duress +1 Silence strategy but I'm not sold yet.

Cheers & keep testing

My only real answer is multiple small storms...

[JCLe]

My only real answer is multiple small storms...

I run 4 chant MD and returns them with silence on, thats the only way I remember beating their good hands, that requires a pretty good hand from us but at least we can kinda match their nut draws with that cause of the relatively slow clock (but most of the time I'm too low for nauseam)

Other than that I only seem to win when I'm extremely lucky, I haven't tried the grids yet, just bringing in pyroblasts +1 seize still (currently out of space cause I'm testing Island in the board which works well so far vs folk)

[jin]

I run 4 chant MD and returns them with silence on, thats the only way I remember beating their good hands, that requires a pretty good hand from us but at least we can kinda match their nut draws with that cause of the relatively slow clock (but most of the time I'm too low for nauseam)

Other than that I only seem to win when I'm extremely lucky, I haven't tried the grids yet, just bringing in pyroblasts +1 seize still (currently out of space cause I'm testing Island in the board which works well so far vs folk)

My sideboard is current:
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warren
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-gotten Gains
1x Grapeshot
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Echoing Truth
1x Wipe Away
1x Shattering Spree
1x Meltdown (I have no idea why this is still in here, I have not used it at all)
1x Thoughtseize
2x Pyroblast

I usually board in the 2x Pyroblasts for NO rUG and the 2x Xantid Swarm for the Stoneblade match ups...
I tend to board out Chrome Mox #4 and Infernal Tutor #4 the most. If I bring in swarms, I usually take out 1x Ponder and 1x Silence.

Oh yes, against Stoneblade, I also board in 1x Tendrils of Agony switching for 1x Empty the Warren. Goblins suck against Batterskull.

Well I usually disrupt a bit, but I don't go off until I have 2 safety. Maybe I'm waiting for too long?

I really like Pyroblast, but I'm starting to want to jump on the band wagon and play Defense Grid. Misstep + Bolt + Spell pierce is just annoying. I'm also considering Carpet of Flowers, but that seems less superb against FOW and Misstep...

[JCLe]

I usually try to pop as soon as I can if I can cast 1 protection and then win, its worthless to wait for 2 the protection because one resolving is all you need.

Its harder to have double protection mana in one turn than just casting duress, getting it misstepped and try again as soon as you draw another protection or have to try because of the clock.

Of course there are some cases where you just have to go in the dark, or just bluff with dark rit, because you might just never draw anything to protect.

Either way, it's a very hard matchup as far as I can tell

[paeng4983]

My sideboard is current:

1x Meltdown (I have no idea why this is still in here, I have not used it at all)


Try something better in replacement for it. Meltdown is good only in an affinity infested meta.




I don't go off until I have 2 safety. Maybe I'm waiting for too long?



Hi, besides my trouble with stoneblade: FOW + Mental Misstep + Spell Pierce + Clique + Ancestral Visions
I'm now having trouble with NO rUG: FOW + Mental Misstep + Daze + Spell Pierce + Clique + heavy pressure from goyf and Progenitus
Any tips?


What i usually do is I immediately go for the kill. Especially during game ones. The longer you wait for a protection, the stronger their hand gets.

Btw, I pparticipated last night in a small legacy tournament here and the meta had UW control (2); merfolk (2); hivemind (2); BUG-still (1); reanimator (1); zoo (1); BW (1); gw-mavs (1) and me. This is a perfect place to do serious playtest with tier one decks. I began my night against GW-mavs (2-0); then zoo (2-1); then hivemind (2-0); before losing to merfolks (0-2). Good LOURD of TES, I really hate seeing merfolks on the opposite end of the table whenever I'm using TES.

RE: Hivemind, it was my 1st time going against a hivemind deck. Game one, he was able to bring down (via show and tell) that enchantment but I was lucky that he did not have a pact. Then on my turn, i tried to go off but he told me that each and every time I will cast an instant or sorcery, he will also have a copy of it and his copy will resolve first. Ok, that sucks. He copied all my rituals and infernal tutor. Good thing hivemind cannot copy artifact and creature spells. I fetched Ad naus via tutor and revealed a lot of cards, including a Xantid, then pass the turn for I knew he had nothing in his hand. Xantid ftw the win! It took me half an hour thinking of how will I get around with that hivemind. Good thing I have xantid in my MD.

[ScatmanX]

RE: Hivemind, it was my 1st time going against a hivemind deck. Game one, he was able to bring down (via show and tell) that enchantment but I was lucky that he did not have a pact. Then on my turn, i tried to go off but he told me that each and every time I will cast an instant or sorcery, he will also have a copy of it and his copy will resolve first. Ok, that sucks. He copied all my rituals and infernal tutor. Good thing hivemind cannot copy artifact and creature spells. I fetched Ad naus via tutor and revealed a lot of cards, including a Xantid, then pass the turn for I knew he had nothing in his hand. Xantid ftw the win! It took me half an hour thinking of how will I get around with that hivemind. Good thing I have xantid in my MD.
If you were worried he would copy Tendrils, then you shouldn't. What happens is: You cast Tendrils with Storm X, to kill him. Hive Mind will copy your spell. Just 1 copy of Tendrils, not Tendrils+x storm, because his copy was not Cast.
Also, all his counterspells are useless with Hive Mind on the Battlefild, because you'll copy the counter, and counter his counter with it.

[jin]

I usually try to pop as soon as I can if I can cast 1 protection and then win, its worthless to wait for 2 the protection because one resolving is all you need.

Its harder to have double protection mana in one turn than just casting duress, getting it misstepped and try again as soon as you draw another protection or have to try because of the clock.

Of course there are some cases where you just have to go in the dark, or just bluff with dark rit, because you might just never draw anything to protect.

Either way, it's a very hard matchup as far as I can tell

If i don't have protection, I usually test the waters with Dark Ritual. It never resolves without being disrupted and if it does, I win. The thing is, every countermagic in the format hits Dark Ritual.


Try something better in replacement for it. Meltdown is good only in an affinity infested meta.

What i usually do is I immediately go for the kill. Especially during game ones. The longer you wait for a protection, the stronger their hand gets.


Game 1's I beat Stoneblade pretty consistantly, it's the game 2's and 3's. Against NO rUG, I usually lose it all. It's interesting though. I'll consider just going off and burning out my protection spells, but I hate wasting them. Yeah I'm going to take Meltdown out. I never fight affinity.

[ComboMan]

How the D. Grid testing is going ?


Thx in advance

[RexFTW]

I'm now having trouble with NO rUG: FOW + Mental Misstep + Daze + Spell Pierce + Clique + heavy pressure from goyf and Progenitus

Any tips?

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s1MspmfEwg

[jin]

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. Its the only way to be sure."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s1MspmfEwg

LOL, nevermind, I fixed it. Empty the Warren dominates this matchup.

[Tomorrow]

Been a lurker for quite a while, but i've been playing this deck non competitively for about 6 months maybe?

I played in a Legacy tournament at UK Nats with Bryant's Grid list, my result was a rather poor 1-3 but i don't think i did too badly.

A quick overview of the tournament.

Round 1 - Zoo.

He informed me that he'd never lost a match against storm and that he beat storm to win a Mox Sapphire in a tournament recently, i had this confirmed to be true later by one of the spectators.

G1 - I was incredibly nervous, so i played very slowly, without his masterful sideboard, i kill him on turn two.

G2 - After attempting to go for the IGGY loop, he Surgical'd my Infernal Tutor... I then went for Ad Nauseam at roughly 8 life, he had no cards in hand by this point, i hit a Ponder which put me to two. In hindsight if i had stopped and Pondered i'd have hit the tutor i needed to go off, but due to a miscalculation i continued and killed myself.

G3 - Was about the point where he was describing that he'd never lost to Storm. I went off, he had plenty of cards in hand, and i Ad Nau'd myself down to 8. After i began to tutor he asked me to confirm if it was a 2cmc spell on top, it wasn't. He bolted me twice down to 2 and i killed him. He packed up solemnly and walked off in a huff.

Round 2 - NO RuG

G1 - He countered everything i played and killed me with Progenitus.

G2 - He countered everything i played, i never saw a grid, and killed me with Terrastadon.

Round 3 - Solidarity

(I was written about in the Solidarity Thread, he said that he had the best games all weekend against me and i had many compliments about how good a Storm player i was, it made me happy.)

G1 - He sighs as i begin to go off, not knowing i'm TES he attempts to mill my win cons, he does.. But i Wish for the one he can't mill and he dies.

G2 - I don't see a defense grid, and after a exchange of Counters and Pyroblasts he mills me for more than my deck.

G3 - I try and force a Grid out early, he Remands it, i play it again, he Remands it, i play it again and he forces it. Then goes off in response to me going off. Turns out he shipped a hand he would have kept against any other deck.. If he'd have kept it, i'd have made 14 Goblins T1 and killed him.

Round 4 - Countertop Stoneblade

(My opponent didn't seem to happy, and by that point i'd heard my best friend had made top8, alongside another close friend, and i was ex tactic.. and became a little bit nuts.)

G1 - Was rather uneventful, he counters everything and kills me with Batterskull.

G2 - Game two for me was all theatrics, i played out the game in a very animated fashion, which drew quite a crowd. I had no choice after my aloof storytelling to go for Diminishing Returns. With two black in pool, i hit 4 land, 2 Duress and a Tendrils... 'S***' ..I double duressed him and never got the gas to go off again, or at least, when i did, he Counterbalanced.

I was told after that game that if anyone watching had scrubbed out, watching me play would make it worth it.

...Not the greatest result in the world i know, but it was my first competitive legacy event and i'm going to Amsterdam in October and will be testing vigorously till then.

Can anyone point me in the direction of the best way to test TES, and what's important in each match? Has Bryant updated the front page to include the newer decks that all have Misstep in them?

Is it worth combating Misstep with Misstep?

[Shimi]

Played again with TES (3fetch 3city, 2 Adn , 3chat1silence, 4 duress with 3xantid1pyro SB).Got paried against UR painter, UW Stoneblade with shutters, Team Italia,Enchantress,Zoo,BW Stoneforge.
Doing 5-0-1, ID with Zoo at round5 because he was my teammate and needed to play top8 for the legacy nationals invite.I ended in first at suiss taking some boosters to home and drop from top8.
The only game I lost all day was game1 against Team Italia where I mull to 5 take hymn at T2 and T3, resolves Adn trying to grapeshot him but get bolted with 3 life(what a shame!).

[jin]

Is it worth combating Misstep with Misstep?

Duress and Orim's Chant does that just fine. Dark Ritual does it sometimes as well.

[Bryant Cook]

I played T.E.S for the first time in awhile at our weekly locals using the list from the opening post. I went 5-0 on the day beating Blue Zoo, Maverick, Bant, Bant, Bant. Defense Grid was insane.

[jin]

I played T.E.S for the first time in awhile at our weekly locals using the list from the opening post. I went 5-0 on the day beating Blue Zoo, Maverick, Bant, Bant, Bant. Defense Grid was insane.

Did you have to deal with hatebears? I had to deal with 3 or 4 in my local tournament last week and I was having trouble. What is your boarding plan against them? Do you board in the 2 Deathmarks and the 2 bounce? I grapeshotted a Gaddock Teeg, so dealing with 1 hatebear seems to be fine, but more than that makes it really hard.

Well, I wasn't playing Deathmark in my sb at the time.

[paeng4983]

Did you have to deal with hatebears? I had to deal with 3 or 4 in my local tournament last week and I was having trouble. What is your boarding plan against them? Do you board in the 2 Deathmarks and the 2 bounce? I grapeshotted a Gaddock Teeg, so dealing with 1 hatebear seems to be fine, but more than that makes it really hard.

Well, I wasn't playing Deathmark in my sb at the time.

Wish for pyroclasm. :) That's how i deal with those x/2 hate creatures. :)

[Bryant Cook]

Did you have to deal with hatebears? I had to deal with 3 or 4 in my local tournament last week and I was having trouble. What is your boarding plan against them? Do you board in the 2 Deathmarks and the 2 bounce? I grapeshotted a Gaddock Teeg, so dealing with 1 hatebear seems to be fine, but more than that makes it really hard.

Well, I wasn't playing Deathmark in my sb at the time.
Yes, all of the Bant Decks had them as did Blue Zoo and Maverick. I brought in Deathmark and Grids for Bant, then Deathmark, Echoing Truth, and 'Seize for the other two.

Blue Zoo round one had maindeck Teeg and opened it. I lost. I won game two by Jedi Mind fucking him. I had used my Grapeshot to stay alive after a poor Nauseam, then a non-lethal Tendrils to stay alive. He had lethal on the board, I drew and played LED, showed infernal, and said "Tendrils?", he scooped. Then game three I Brainstormed turn one putting Nauseam on top, then turn two Ritual, Rite, LED, Petal, Ponder, crack LED, Ad Nauseam.

Then against Bant round four, he went turn 2 Zenith for Teeg. I turn 2 wish for Grapeshot, he plays a Pridemage, I draw and play another land, then my turn four consisted of... Chant, Chant, Ritual, Ritual, Petal, Grapeshot, LED, Infernal, win.


Wish for pyroclasm. :) That's how i deal with those x/2 hate creatures. :)
That's wrong. Grapeshot > Pyroclasm. I'm tired of arguing this so I'll let you continue to be wrong and lose rounds because of it.

[aljiichiban]

Just want to share:

Ended up 3-1(2nd out of 12 players) last Sat with this deck with some changes:

MD:
1) +14th land(3rd City), -1 Mox;been having problems with double mox at hand lately and just want to check if I would mulligan less
2)moved Xathid to SB and went back to 4 duress and 3/1 split of orims and silence; I thought there would be less merfolk decks. I was wrong, because there were none.
3)retaind ETW on MD and sticked to 1 Ad Nauseam(same as #2)
SB:
4) my SB still had 1 meltdown, then 3 xanthid, 1 thoughtseize and pyroclasm(yeah, yeah a card many would frown upon but since the artifacts in MD were reduced to 11, the chances of killing a cannonist with grapeshot would be less)


Rd 1: Zoo
g1: IGG to lethal tendrils
g2: mulled to 6. He was too fast for me this time
g3: a T3 ETW 14 got there.

rd 2: affinity
g1: same as G1 vs zoo
g2: I was able to wipe his board (except glimervoid) with meltdown but he played Vault skirge next turn then equipped it with cranial plating I was down to 8 and my 10 gobs were not enough
g3: wiped his board again with meltdown after he increased his life to 24( Vault skirge with plating). with 4 storm and a boatload of mana after IGG, I decided to spit 20 gobs instead of Ad Nauseam since I was down to 12 life. He conceded after


Rd 2: No RUG
g1: I killed myself with T2 ad Nauseam starting at 20 life. HA!!!
g2: My xanthid ate a bolt. But I was able to spit 12 gobs on T2. They went the distance.
g3: He had 3 missteps and a force on his first 2 turns. Too much for me to handle

Rd 3: Hive Mind
g1: My silence Resolved on T2 and proceed with Ad Nauseam for Lethal tendrils
g2: I mulled to six. I decided to keep a hand of Orim's, xanthid, ponder, one fetch and 2 gold lands. He mulled to 5. My xanthid got mistepped. I pondered into Infernal, BW and rite. after he passed the turn, I wished into thoughtseize and only saw a land and 2 emrakuls. I had to choose 1 emrakul. He shuffled, then topdecked a show and tell and showed Emrakul(he was like teasing me to concede). On my turn, I drew a dark rit, passed the turn, then chanted him on his upkeep to postpone the Oversized Jellyfish's attack. I topdecked a LED on my turn that enabled me to go for Ad Nauseam to a Lethal Tendrils.

Wins:
Innistrad PR Pass
Making the right decision to go for ETW instead of Ad Naus vs Affinity
Chanting the Oversized Jellyfish, then topdecking LED

flops:
Getting killed with Ad Naus @ 20 life
3 missteps plus FOW

Overall, I still have a lot to learn from playing this deck and playing tight. The meta was 30-40% aggro( I guess they're trying to anticipate Stoneforge Decks). Haven't tried defense grid on SB but will do test it with my friends during playtesting

[ComboMan]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123606&d=1315195415

So?
Comments? I believe this is a crap, but I didn't put to much thought on that...

[jin]

Yes, all of the Bant Decks had them as did Blue Zoo and Maverick. I brought in Deathmark and Grids for Bant, then Deathmark, Echoing Truth, and 'Seize for the other two.


Oh yeah, I never thought to board in Thoughtseize, that was stupid...



Blue Zoo round one had maindeck Teeg and opened it. I lost. I won game two by Jedi Mind fucking him. I had used my Grapeshot to stay alive after a poor Nauseam, then a non-lethal Tendrils to stay alive. He had lethal on the board, I drew and played LED, showed infernal, and said "Tendrils?", he scooped. Then game three I Brainstormed turn one putting Nauseam on top, then turn two Ritual, Rite, LED, Petal, Ponder, crack LED, Ad Nauseam.

Epic.. so that's how it's done.


Then against Bant round four, he went turn 2 Zenith for Teeg. I turn 2 wish for Grapeshot, he plays a Pridemage, I draw and play another land, then my turn four consisted of... Chant, Chant, Ritual, Ritual, Petal, Grapeshot, LED, Infernal, win.

yeah it's really satisifying to Grapeshot a bear and then Tendrils them out... for some odd reason.


http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123606&d=1315195415

So?
Comments? I believe this is a crap, but I didn't put to much thought on that...

I think with that much mana, people rather Ad Nauseam --> Grapeshot.

[ninja_attack]

I think with that much mana, people rather Ad Nauseam --> Grapeshot.

I agree, you don't need to attack with a bunch of slighty bigger dorks when your opponent is looking at the lethal grapeshot you are holding.

[jin]

I think the question should be.. will Snapcaster Mage screw over the discard plan to rid them of their countermagic or will it just screw over IGG completely... I'm not sure how the flashback cost works, but if it works the way I think it does, I think this spells trouble...

[metalhead]

The flashback is its casting cost, so this means luckily force of will is still dead unless they have 7 mana.

[jin]

The flashback is its casting cost, so this means luckily force of will is still dead unless they have 7 mana.

well, I'm more worried about spell pierce coming back..., but phyrexian mana is still phyrexian mana.. so I think misstep is still "free"

making a lot of those U counterspells annoying.

[GoboLord]

...and I think the question will be: What deck is willing to integrate a 2/1 creature that does not much more than annoy storm-combo (a deck supposed to be dead)?

Likely candidates?
* NO RUG? Not. Already happy with few huge creature, most of which fit into GSZ
* Stoneblade? Maybe in UW variants with emphasis on countermagic (e.g. more controlesque)
* Deedstill? Not. They don't like creatures for themselves.
* Team AMerica? Not. Plays almost exclusively free-counters - of which only MMs is efficient enough to pay the flashbackcosts for.
...

I think the only countermagic which might be annoying with the mage are: Spell pierce, MMs and Spell Snare (because of their low casting cost). Then again you must realize that recycling a spell costs the actual manacosts + 1U (from Mage): "Whey, they just paid 1U -2life for their Misstep or rather 1UU (Clique-mana) for SPell pierce/Snare. What an awsome thing to do!"

[jin]

...and I think the question will be: What deck is willing to integrate a 2/1 creature that does not much more than annoy storm-combo (a deck supposed to be dead)?

Likely candidates?
* NO RUG? Not. Already happy with few huge creature, most of which fit into GSZ
* Stoneblade? Maybe in UW variants with emphasis on countermagic (e.g. more controlesque)
* Deedstill? Not. They don't like creatures for themselves.
* Team AMerica? Not. Plays almost exclusively free-counters - of which only MMs is efficient enough to pay the flashbackcosts for.
...

I think the only countermagic which might be annoying with the mage are: Spell pierce, MMs and Spell Snare (because of their low casting cost). Then again you must realize that recycling a spell costs the actual manacosts + 1U (from Mage): "Whey, they just paid 1U -2life for their Misstep or rather 1UU (Clique-mana) for SPell pierce/Snare. What an awsome thing to do!"

2/1 flash for U1 can easily be incorporated into NO rUG, Stoneblade and TA. Whether they need it or not is a different story. NO rUG doesn't really care too much for GSZ. Grim Lavamancer and Vendilion Clique is evident of this. Stoneblade can play whatever they like. It has so many flex slots and having more creatures for equipment is almost never bad. TA is the same as Stoneblade.

The cost of the countermagic is irrelevant. Tempo is irrelevant when talking about stormcombo since all of our spells are inherently tempo loss. We trade this for speed and power. What's important is that they can recylce their missteps or spell pierces making our disrupt less effective and making the protection of their FOW more effective. The fact that they can misstep our Duress the turn before and then move to recyle that misstep for Orim's Chant afterwards to keep their FOW in their hand online proves to be an annoying combo. The scariest thing is a combo player with a full hand and when they negate this with recycling countermagic, then our hand of 7 gets less and less impressive (from 2 countered cards to 3 countered cards in that last example).

ie. Turn 1: Land, pass
Turn 1: Land, Duress - meets paid misstep
Turn 2: Land, pass
Turn 2: Land, Orim's Chant - Flash in dude.. 2 life for misstep

So now do you go or not? His hand is still full. It makes a natural ETW or Tendrils more impressive, but we don't draw those too often at the right time... It also makes countering our cantrips an actual option now since they can easily recyle their missteps..

Also, I would hardly call a recyled misstep/spellpierce on my Dark Ritual/LED awesome. Not only that, they have a 2/1 which means we draw less cards for each time it swings at me. It starts swinging immediately...

[gamergc]

I don't know how to make spoiler tags but they just spoiled a card called Past in Flames that seems like it could replace/compliment Ill-gotten Gains. It doesn't work with Lion's Eye Diamond, but it also doesn't give them back their Force of Wills.

[Basaka]

Dangit, no spoiler tags in this forum?

So, uhh... Yag's will for storm for 3R, flashback 4R.

[Bryant Cook]

Dangit, no spoiler tags in this forum?

So, uhh... Yag's will for storm for 3R, flashback 4R.

Past in Flames 3R

???
Each instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
Flashback 4R
Illus. Anthony Jones #155/264


!!!! I'm excited.

[tsabo_tavoc]

!!!! I'm excited.

For the current build (8 Rituals), this is a nice wish target, but not good enough for the MD. Also, LEDs and Petals are too good to be cut for Rituals.

[Basaka]

It'll probably be one-off in the SB as a wish target anyway.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

MTGSally has it spoiled as an instant.

[Bryant Cook]

Sorcery here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7297415)

This card is much worse as an instant.

[NyxathidHorror]

Sorcery here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7297415)

This card is much worse as an instant.

Completely agree. What hyped me up the most was being able to wish for it. Not nearly as excited now...

:frown:

[Basaka]

So it's sorcery on the post, but instant in the spoilers. Ehh, we'll know next monday

[tsabo_tavoc]

So it's sorcery on the post, but instant in the spoilers. Ehh, we'll know next monday

They all show Sorcery now. I wish Ad Nauseam was a Sorcery...

[Bryant Cook]

Looks like we have a new toy. I'm open to testing one MD (Over the second Nauseam), one SB.

EDIT: The more and more I think about this card, the less and less I like it maindeck. It needs a lot of work in order for it to be good, it costs four AND you need mana open to play spells (Rituals, Protection, Cantrips, Tutors). Don't get me wrong, obviously this card is good, but I think it may end up being just a wish target.

I'll test it in the main regardless.

[NyxathidHorror]

they all show sorcery now. I wish ad nauseam was a sorcery...

excited again!!!

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Think this could maybe replace Ad Nauseam if a list was built correctly?

[NyxathidHorror]

Think this could maybe replace Ad Nauseam if a list was built correctly?

I think it can definitely replace the 2nd Ad off people's lists, but I don't know about it replacing the single copy; Nauseam just wins, and this card is more of an enabler.

[lorddotm]

Looks like we have a new toy. I'm open to testing one MD (Over the second Nauseam), one SB.

That was my plan exactly.

[Bryant Cook]

That was my plan exactly.

I think this card is going to replace IGG in my list, which is saddening. I mean, I have a Japanese altered hottness one (Thanks Yawg).

[Fossil4182]

I think this card is going to replace IGG in my list, which is saddening. I mean, I have a Japanese altered hottness one (Thanks Yawg).

Seems like losing the ability to reuse Lion's Eye Diamond could be awkward. It is also limited because you only get access to as much mana as you have Rite of Flames or Dark Rituals in the yard. In my experience, I usually have some combination of LED and ritual effects which would make using Ill-Gotten Gains better. Obviously, there will always be situations when Flames of the Past or Ill-Gotten Gains are better than the other, but but I think there are a lot of things that Flames of the Past can do internally to make the deck run better and solves the the weakness that using Ill-Gotten Gains has against control match ups (Especially given the prevalence of control).

As an aside, if you do end up replacing your awesome Japanese altered Ill-Gotten Gains, you can get a Korean Flames of the Past now...

With this getting printed and the possibility of Mental Misstep being banned, Storm could be in a great position.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I think this card is going to replace IGG in my list, which is saddening. I mean, I have a Japanese altered hottness one (Thanks Yawg).

Thats really what it seems like its good at. A replacement for IGG that has the added value of being the shit against blue

[Dia_Bot]

This card is just what 3C TES needed. Need to have a korean foil one :P.

[jin]

How does Past in FLames differ from IGG? I mean in terms of playing. How would you set this up? You would need quite a large amount of untapped mana or rituals to use it effectly no? I think this could make our discard spells stronger, but I'm hesitant to say that it's any better than IGG since I rely so heavily on LED to win a lot of my aggro match ups.

[NyxathidHorror]

How does Past in FLames differ from IGG? I mean in terms of playing. How would you set this up? You would need quite a large amount of untapped mana or rituals to use it effectly no? I think this could make our discard spells stronger, but I'm hesitant to say that it's any better than IGG since I rely so heavily on LED to win a lot of my aggro match ups.

Agreed, IGG is still better than this; if ANYTHING, it should be replacing any 2nd copy of Nauseam, and makes for an EXCELLENT wish target.

[Dia_Bot]

+1.
IGG will indeed be better against non blue decks but the card is awsome when you are at low life total and playing against a blue deck. 1 copy Maindeck and 1 in the wishboard seems about right.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't think it's going to end up a maindeck card, I do think it's going to replace Ill-Gotten Gains in the sideboard. What do you people recommend then? Three storm engines in the sideboard with two of them being redundant? One of these cards needs to go, don't be ridiculous.

[Dark Ritual]

Past in flames is conditionally better than IGG, something some people seem to miss. It's sweet because it's like this you have 2 dark rit's and a rite of flame in the yard along with infernal tutor. Then you also get one more storm count. And past in flames at least doesn't help blue decks get countermagic back, unlike IGG. And for people saying they used IGG to mindtwist people on turn 1, you're probably doing it wrong then. Not to mention you can also flashback random ponder's and brainstorms in the yard to generate yet more storm. We run a lot of sorceries and instants in here with only 12 or less artifacts and lands.

I'm all for replacing IGG in the board with PiF. The card is better in more instances than IGG is since with IGG you need to have resolved chant against blue to make IGG worthwhile and we usually win whenever we resolve a chant anyways so yeah...

[Fossil4182]

I don't think it's going to end up a maindeck card, I do think it's going to replace Ill-Gotten Gains in the sideboard. What do you people recommend then? Three storm engines in the sideboard with two of them being redundant? One of these cards needs to go, don't be ridiculous.

If the word "or" creates a timestamp that prevents future cards from gaining Flashback, I think you still want Ill-Gotten Gains over this card.

1. The ability to Flashback Brainstorm or Ponder. So what? If I'm casting Burning Wish for a card in order to Flashback the aforementioned, I'm either going to be cracking Lotus Petals or Lion's Eye Diamonds for Blue or maybe tapping one land. Since this is probably midcombo when you're attempting to Flashback cantrips, wouldn't I rather cast Diminishing Returns and draw seven cards? Even though the ability to Flash these spells back may be useful, I think casting Diminishing Returns is a much more powerful play.


I also think part of this question will depend on what happens with the B&R updates on the 20th. If Mental Misstep is banned, then the argument that Past in Flames avoids the negative interaction with Blue decks becomes less relevant since Blue decks will take a hit post banning. I'm going to withhold my final opinion on how this impacts the Blue based match ups until I test some more and until the B&R list comes out.

[Basaka]

I guess it may depend on your local meta - PiF is better against blue but IGG is better against decks with disruption and no blue (+ aggro).

I would wait for INN FAQ + Sept B/R announcement to make a move though.

[Deviruchi]

So I've "wasted" already ~4h to try PiF (1x MB, 1x SB). I've tested vs. UW-Blade, BUG-Still and Team America. The one copy in sideboard is sure for me now but the one in maindeck is so-so. Before testing I didn't have 2x Ad Nauseam, I prefer +1 Chant effect. Like with IGG or ToA drawing PiF is usually so annoying that I wanted to dismiss that idea on the spot. But after few games I also had some sick comebacks because of PiF. I'm not sold yet, more testing has to be done but I think that mainboard PiF is better to be placed in ANT with added Volcanic(s).

I won't cut IGG in the sideboard yet. There were games where wishing for PiF was useless but for IGG were pure win. For now I use Bryant's SB with few changes:
-1 Deathmark / +1 Pyroclasm
-1 Meltdown / +1 Past in Flames (-1 Meltdown / +1 Wipe Away was a metagame call few weeks ago)

[OurSerratedDust]

An interesting interaction to note is that you can crack LEDs with this card in hand, and then use its flashback with the mana you get.

[dahcmai]

You can also cast it then crack all your diamonds in response having a pile of mana to play with all the stuff in your yard afterward including the things that were in your hand before you cast it.

[metalhead]

The biggest problem I'm having so far is that you almost need to use infernal to win. Since wish rfgs itself. Which makes playing draw spells post PiF worse as you lose hellbent.

[jin]

+1.
IGG will indeed be better against non blue decks but the card is awsome when you are at low life total and playing against a blue deck. 1 copy Maindeck and 1 in the wishboard seems about right.

I think if this is the case, Past in Flame should replace Diminishing Returns rather than IGG, since DR isn't great against blue as well and you use it at low life. This also doesn't weaken our aggro game by taking out IGG. Of course, the overall deck just becomes more suscpetible to graveyard hate....

[thefringthing]

Without Cabal Rituals, TES isn't very susceptible to graveyard hate to begin with. There's Ill-Gotten Gains, but we're talking about potentially replacing that with Past in Flames. I'm perfectly happy to have Maverick (say) bring in Relics or something like that. Trying to combat TES with graveyard hate, even in the hypothetical situation where we all end up playing Past into Flames, is an ineffective enough strategy that I think we needn't worry.

[Final Fortune]

You don't cut either Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns for Past in Flames, you just add Past in Flames to the SB and that's that because it's a mid-game option vs. aggro-control that's only undisruptable if you have the win in your hand/yard right now.

Each of these cards has a window in which they are the appropriate threat, and when one window closes the other windows open. They're strengths, respectively, are to make certain you aren't overly reliant on any one window by overlapping each other and providing multiple angles of entry.

[jin]

You don't cut either Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns for Past in Flames, you just add Past in Flames to the SB and that's that because it's a mid-game option vs. aggro-control that's only undisruptable if you have the win in your hand/yard right now.

Each of these cards has a window in which they are the appropriate threat, and when one window closes the other windows open. They're strengths, respectively, are to make certain you aren't overly reliant on any one window by overlapping each other and providing multiple angles of entry.

If you aren't replacing IGG or DR, which other card do you plan to replace? The SB seems pretty tight.

I think in your 2 Ad Nauseam lists (I'm still playing 1 Ad Nauseam as I feel ETW is better against NO rUG), DR just seems not that impressive. DR is random like Ad Nauseam and refills the opponent's hand like IGG. I think it is the weakest link, if we are talking about bombs and anti-blue cards, Past in Flames seem more of a DR replacement rather than an IGG replacement in the SB.

I am hesitant to put in Past in Flames alongside IGG and DR and ETW and Grapeshot and Tendrils of Agony since having 5 wincons in the SB is about all this deck should need to afford.

[Final Fortune]

The deck doesn't have a really high utility value for SB cards, you can always cut a REB etc. for one more wish target, but trading one bomb for another bomb is a bad idea because its the versatility of those threats that make TES so hard to stop.

[Bryant Cook]

Stop acting like little kids that their mom gave their old toys to charity and now they want them back because they're just sooo awesome.

I for one hardly ever even cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I cast Diminishing Returns all the time. It gets around lifeloss AND graveyard hate, it's very good. We don't need three storm engines in the sideboard, the answer better not be "just cut an REB for it". Have people played this deck before? Sideboard space is extremely tight and the answer isn't cutting a protection spell.

I could be wrong because I haven't tested it yet, but I doubt it, for all three times that I cast IGG a year.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I for one hardly ever even cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I cast Diminishing Returns all the time. It gets around lifeloss AND graveyard hate, it's very good. We don't need three storm engines in the sideboard, the answer better not be "just cut an REB for it". Have people played this deck before? Sideboard space is extremely tight and the answer isn't cutting a protection spell.

I could be wrong because I haven't tested it yet, but I doubt it, for all three times that I cast IGG a year.

Gonna have to agree here, I almost never wish for IGG. I've cast the card maybe once or twice since I took it out of the mainboard however long ago. The reason I like PIF so much is the flasback, which basically allows us to do the vintage "oops, I topdecked Will, guess I win" play repeatedly until it resolves.

[Dark Ritual]

And things get really spicy when you have 3 or more RoF/Dark Rit in the yard along with infernal tutor or if an opponent discarded your burning wish. Sometimes I find myself one storm short of killing with an IGG loop and I just die because of it.

And at least PiF, if it gets countered or something, can be flashbacked later on for 4R something people seem to miss. Giving TES a stronger lategame doesn't seem that bad and the power of PiF goes on as the game increases since you likely are going to draw into more rituals to flashback and just 'go crazy'.

[fearphage]

Stop acting like little kids that their mom gave their old toys to charity and now they want them back because they're just sooo awesome.

I for one hardly ever even cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I cast Diminishing Returns all the time. It gets around lifeloss AND graveyard hate, it's very good. We don't need three storm engines in the sideboard, the answer better not be "just cut an REB for it". Have people played this deck before? Sideboard space is extremely tight and the answer isn't cutting a protection spell.

I could be wrong because I haven't tested it yet, but I doubt it, for all three times that I cast IGG a year.I'm the complete opposite. I play IGG main deck because it's my go-to kill. Uninterrupted it is a guaranteed win. The same cannot be said for Diminishing Returns and even Ad Nauseam. The latter is more probable but by no means a guarantee even from 20 life. Diminishing Returns is my "oh shit" button that I hit and pray. It's too inconsistent and if drawing 15+ cards off of AN can't get there, that instills little faith in the 7.

[NyxathidHorror]

I'm the complete opposite. I play IGG main deck because it's my go-to kill. Uninterrupted it is a guaranteed win. The same cannot be said for Diminishing Returns and even Ad Nauseam. The latter is more probable but by no means a guarantee even from 20 life. Diminishing Returns is my "oh shit" button that I hit and pray. It's too inconsistent and if drawing 15+ cards off of AN can't get there, that instills little faith in the 7.

I couldn't agree more; IGG simply wins. I really like Past, and it makes for an excellent replacement for the second copy of Nauseam, but it just doesn't quite do what IGG does.

[Final Fortune]

Stop acting like little kids that their mom gave their old toys to charity and now they want them back because they're just sooo awesome.

I for one hardly ever even cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I cast Diminishing Returns all the time. It gets around lifeloss AND graveyard hate, it's very good. We don't need three storm engines in the sideboard, the answer better not be "just cut an REB for it". Have people played this deck before? Sideboard space is extremely tight and the answer isn't cutting a protection spell.

I could be wrong because I haven't tested it yet, but I doubt it, for all three times that I cast IGG a year.

If IGG isn't pulling it's weight, then I'd rather cut IGG than Diminishing Returns because it's a redundant Storm engine but I still find the Infernal -> Wish -> IGG loop to be a pretty assured win vs. Zoo after they've played Wild Nacatl or Goblin Guide and double bolted you etc.

I don't really think the SB space is that precious, but it probably depends on whether or not people are bothering to SB vs. Storm at all (and they aren't fwiw).

[Final Fortune]

Stop acting like little kids that their mom gave their old toys to charity and now they want them back because they're just sooo awesome.

I for one hardly ever even cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I cast Diminishing Returns all the time. It gets around lifeloss AND graveyard hate, it's very good. We don't need three storm engines in the sideboard, the answer better not be "just cut an REB for it". Have people played this deck before? Sideboard space is extremely tight and the answer isn't cutting a protection spell.

I could be wrong because I haven't tested it yet, but I doubt it, for all three times that I cast IGG a year.

If IGG isn't pulling it's weight, then I'd rather cut IGG than Diminishing Returns because it's a redundant Storm engine but I still find the Infernal -> Wish -> IGG loop to be a pretty assured win vs. Zoo after they've played Wild Nacatl or Goblin Guide and double bolted you etc.

I don't really think the SB space is that precious, but it probably depends on whether or not people are bothering to SB vs. Storm at all (and they aren't fwiw).

[r0ckstAr]

Hello guys !
Can someone post an uptated septembre 2011 list ? I played this deck a lot back in 2007-2008 and LOVED it, but then i quit magic and obviously lost track of TES' progress.
With or without Past in Flames, I read the last X pages of the topic and will test it myself ;)

[j_rb]

@r0ckstAr - the updated list is on the first page and has articles and feature match videos. I am personally still rolling out with xantid swarms though and have not tested Defense grids yet.(even though I have beautiful foil ones).

[lorddotm]

I'm not liking Past in Flames that much.

[jin]

I couldn't agree more; IGG simply wins. I really like Past, and it makes for an excellent replacement for the second copy of Nauseam, but it just doesn't quite do what IGG does.



I'm the complete opposite. I ...

I wouldn't call IGG my go to card, but I do use it against Zoo and Sligh a lot. There are a lot of burn decks (by a lot I mean I run into it once every tournament), so I prefer to have the guarentee win with IGG. DR just refills their hand with yeet even more burns, which is terrible while with IGG, I can gauge what they draw


I don't really think the SB space is that precious, but it probably depends on whether or not people are bothering to SB vs. Storm at all (and they aren't fwiw).

I disagree with this one. SB space is just too tight. I'm running defense grid now, but I really wanted to keep a Wipe Away.

[Shimi]

I'm not liking Past in Flames that much.

Same here.. tested and just didn't like it..it is better than EtW MD but worse than 2nd Adn.At SB I just don't want to cut something(if I would have to cut something it would be the 3° bounce spell), it could be my playstyle but many times when I would go to PiF the Iggy was the same thing or better.

Maybe PiF belong to another storm deck shell like TNT(UBR ANT).

[lorddotm]

Same here.. tested and just didn't like it..it is better than EtW MD but worse than 2nd Adn.At SB I just don't want to cut something(if I would have to cut something it would be the 3° bounce spell), it could be my playstyle but many times when I would go to PiF the Iggy was the same thing or better.

Maybe PiF belong to another storm deck shell like TNT(UBR ANT).

Been playing it in a modified TNT list. Totally sick, but I'm unsure it's better than Ad Nauseam.

[Bryant Cook]

Paraselene 2W

Sorcery
Destroy all enchantments. You gain 1 life for each enchantment destroyed this way.
"Moonlight has a way of showing all things as they truly are - for better or for worse."
-Zilla of Lambholt
Illus. Ryan Yee #26/264

For those of us that still use Cleanfall/Tranquility or plan to in the future. I'll probably acquire a Japanese Foil one at somepoint.

[Anusien]

After Past in Flames replaces IGG, do Duresses replace the Chants?

[Bryant Cook]

After Past in Flames replaces IGG, do Duresses replace the Chants?

The problem with this is that it's still an Ad Nauseam deck at the moment. I'm not even convinced that Past of Flames will end up in the maindeck, it seems foolish changing the deck for a wish target.

[Anusien]

You said you use Diminishing Returns a lot; Chant seems like it's still really important. It just seems to me that if Past in Flames turns out to be an easy replacement for IGG, Duress is far superior to Chant (less mana on combo turn, can take Hymn, etc) and then you can be a UBR combo deck instead of playing the half 5C manabase and I think the deck evolves pretty rapidly.

[Diprivan]

You said you use Diminishing Returns a lot; Chant seems like it's still really important. It just seems to me that if Past in Flames turns out to be an easy replacement for IGG, duress is far superior (less mana on combo turn, can take Hymn, etc) and then you can be a UBR combo deck instead of playing the half 5C manabase and I think the deck evolves pretty rapidly.

Fixed that for you.

Chant isn't in the deck because of IGG, chant is in the deck because it just flat out wins. Chant trumps all those sitfle, spell snare, reb, beb, etc they might have.

[Deviruchi]

This is also something interesting. A wish target that can bounce Iona (black) or Teeg for U:

Name: Silent Departure
Cost: u
Type: Sorcery
Rules Text: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
Flashback {4}{u}
Flavor Text: The same magic that lets geists pass through our realm can force them out of it.
Illus. John Avon
Rarity: Common
Set Number: #75/264

@Chants/Silences: I play W in TES and DDFT just for these cards. They are too powerful to ignore. With or without MMS (banned) I played / I'd stll play it. If you really wan't go and try another 3cTES/TNT/whatever with PiF maindeck but without chants and with this kind of graveyard vulnerability I don't see the power of it.

[Bryant Cook]

This is also something interesting. A wish target that can bounce Iona (black) or Teeg for U:

Name: Silent Departure
Cost: u
Type: Sorcery
Rules Text: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
Flashback {4}{u}
Flavor Text: The same magic that lets geists pass through our realm can force them out of it.
Illus. John Avon
Rarity: Common
Set Number: #75/264

@Chants/Silences: I play W in TES and DDFT just for these cards. They are too powerful to ignore. With or without MMS (banned) I played / I'd stll play it. If you really wan't go and try another 3cTES/TNT/whatever with PiF maindeck but without chants and with this kind of graveyard vulnerability I don't see the power of it.

Eh, what it comes down to is how much do you care about Iona? This could replace the second Deathmark, if you did care. I'm unsure if it's worth playing. What does everyone else think?

[Diprivan]

Eh, what it comes down to is how much do you care about Iona? This could replace the second Deathmark, if you did care. I'm unsure if it's worth playing. What does everyone else think?

I only care about hatebears. They are white, so deathmark does the trick better. (can be cast the turn before comboing, no reb target)
EDIT: the flashback cost is too high to be relevant. Make it 1U and I'm in

[Basaka]

Now that Misstep is banned, would we still need defense grids, or can we rock those Xantids again?

[Derayler]

Does this mean I have to get LED's again so I can play this deck? FML

[Bryant Cook]

Now that Misstep is banned, would we still need defense grids, or can we rock those Xantids again?

I'll be going back to Pyros.

[Tammit67]

I'll be going back to Pyros.

Yeah, you can bet your ass CBtop will be seeing play again

[j_rb]

The thing about Silent Departure is, is Deathmark does the same thing and is more versatile in other MU's. I mean if they name black on Iona, ok I have a blue answer. I don't really think Iona is that big of a bomb against us due to the different answers in the deck(which is also why TES is great). I, personally, have never had problems with Iona in the reanimator MU.

[NQN]

Nice one! TES @ GP Amsterdam->I´m looking forward to it :D

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Nice one! TES @ GP Amsterdam->I´m looking forward to it :D

Welcome back :D thought you disappeared from The Source...

[iPhael]

I'll be going back to Pyros.

That definitely seems like the right way to go. Also we probably need to bring back KGrips and/or Wipe Away, as CBTop will likely resurface.

All in all, it's a good day to be a LEDless Dredge and TES player :D

[Tomorrow]

I'm going to be taking TES to Amsterdam too.. There was a list i saw using Carpet of Flowers, is there any merit to that?

[Lunarclaw]

Hi to everyone my first post on the source , i've 2 simple question^_^


pyros=???

And you think there is some other change to the deck whitout misstep around ?

[Chikenbok]

Hi to everyone my first post on the source , i've 2 simple question^_^


pyros=???

And you think there is some other change to the deck whitout misstep around ?

Pyros = pyroblast/red elemental blast = best counterspell ever printed.

Fundamentally no, but there will be change.

[Shimi]

Yeah, you can bet your ass CBtop will be seeing play again
If I'm correct CounterTop was not having a big sucess before NPH..may be batterskull+stoneforge can change this and ofcourse many old countertop players will go back to the archtype or put CB on their Stoneblade decks.
What I'm think will be happening is that everyone think: "OMFG! Storm is back let's hate it out with 15 SB cards!" and of course our old friend Team America will come back because Standstill , Visions and Jace aren't so broken anymore(they are still good).



Does this mean I have to get LED's again so I can play this deck? FML
This deck was never dead.. I got top8ed 5 of 6 tournaments I played in pos-NPH era... you just needed to adapt your playstyle.But welcome back to the dark side!!

[Basaka]

I'm guessing I'm going to try and run 2 pyroblasts maindeck, and a mix of blasts/swarms in the SB. Then agains, it depends if anyone plays CB in my area.

[paeng4983]

Eh, what it comes down to is how much do you care about Iona? This could replace the second Deathmark, if you did care. I'm unsure if it's worth playing. What does everyone else think?

The angel Iona is not that rampant here so I guess i wont consider that silent departure. Well except if the angel is popular in your meta (reanimator, show and tell and the like decks) or in the meta where you're expecting her to be there, then that card can be added to your SB.

yup, TES deck was not dead even during NPH era. I also topped many tournaments here whether or not my opponent has a set of MM. :) I'll miss MM badly though lols

[aljiichiban]

I'v been testing PiF in SB and here's the situation I've only came up with this being useful so far. (excluding the showboating situation)

Cards in hand: 2 BW, 2 Dark rit, 1 Rite
Lands in play- Either of the below:
1) U.sea and 2 gold lands
2) U.sea, volcs and 1 gold land
3) 3 gold lands

Using IGG in this situation only generates 8 storm(before tendrils). PiF increases the storm count to 9.

I'll still continue to test this card and hopefully, the people with vast experience playing this deck will be able to unlock it's potential...

[jin]

I'm going to be taking TES to Amsterdam too.. There was a list i saw using Carpet of Flowers, is there any merit to that?

not really. carpet of flowers hits soft counters but it's not a card they must counter if they don't rely so heavily on them. in other words, you have to actually draw a chant or duress to bring out their FOW.. and that just seems less impressive than duress, chant, defensegrid or xantid swarm..

pyroblast even..

[Tomorrow]

Yeah, it did seem like a card pinned toward Merfolk alone really.. Daze me now bro. Is there a consensus on the side?

[flrn]

I'm going to be taking TES to Amsterdam too.. There was a list i saw using Carpet of Flowers, is there any merit to that?

Carpet of Flowers is used against tempo decks such as Canadian Threshold, BUG Threshold or Team America. Any deck that packs Stifle and Wastelands. You completly negate their mana denial plan, if you resolve Carpet of Flowers early on. I don't think that this tech is needed in TES builds, since you need to go off relatively early anyway compared to DDFT, where this card sees more play.

[zmattk]

So since the format is going backwards a bit, do we think it's safe to bring back Empty the Warrens over the 2nd Ad Nauseam slot or do you guys think that it's just better to keep the 2nd Ad Nauseam in case Stoneforge/Batterskull stays popular?

[Bryant Cook]

So since the format is going backwards a bit, do we think it's safe to bring back Empty the Warrens over the 2nd Ad Nauseam slot or do you guys think that it's just better to keep the 2nd Ad Nauseam in case Stoneforge/Batterskull stays popular?

I don't see Batterskull going anywhere, it's still going to be a good deck.

Also, Carpet of Flowers sucks. It doesn't actually do anything against real counterspells. I've also seen blue players not play lands because of it and win.

[jin]

I don't see Batterskull going anywhere, it's still going to be a good deck.

Also, Carpet of Flowers sucks. It doesn't actually do anything against real counterspells. I've also seen blue players not play lands because of it and win.

I've never seen THAT before..


So since the format is going backwards a bit, do we think it's safe to bring back Empty the Warrens over the 2nd Ad Nauseam slot or do you guys think that it's just better to keep the 2nd Ad Nauseam in case Stoneforge/Batterskull stays popular?

How do you think batterskull will change to stay in the game? Will Batterskull with top-balance be annoying for Ad Nauseam? I quite like Empty the Warren and I think it's still Viable if NO rUG stays around.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I've never seen THAT before..

He prob means Islands.
Merfolk: Mutavault, Vial, go.
Team America: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Wasteland, Goyf, go.

Carpet of Flowers can not replace Protections, it substitutes Rituals, but Rite of Flames is often better. A huge TES play against tempo decks is Rite, Rite, Empty the Warren.

For DDFT or SI, however, Carpet can be better than Cabal Ritual or Culling the Weak in the tempo MUs.

[Dark Ritual]

Read the opening post...the most recent decklist is updated there quite frequently because Bryant is actually good at keeping an OP up to date.

I have seen blue players neglect to lay down another tropical island due to me having carpet of flowers out and yes it has cost me at least 1 game in recent memory where I was one mana short of going off with DDFT last saturday while if he had played another island it would have been easy to go off.

TES doesn't need carpet because TES is the fastest AdN combo deck so you don't gain much mana from it anyways. SI likes it because extra mana in that deck is sweet especially since it's any color of mana and DDFT likes it to wreck merfolk's mana denial plan and their soft counters in cursecatcher and daze. It is surprisingly easy to beat merfolk when you run 4 xantid swarm and 3 carpet of flowers postboard in storm and they don't have misstep.

Also, if team america doesn't lay down any islands due to carpet aren't you winning anyways due to them not being able to stifle, brainstorm, spell snare, or daze? You just have to fight through FoW and that is handled quite easily with a duress/chant. You can fight discard with your own brainstorms. And they don't have misstep anymore come october 1st so it becomes a lot easier to fight through an islandless board.

Yeah I can see new countertop builds utilizing stoneforge mystic with batterskull. Sure batterskull messes with their CB curve but it's a one of and it can at least counter opposing FoW's when flipped off of CB. EtW seems quite bad still.

[Fossil4182]

Bryant,

In the Primer, how many samples did you take in order to reach your conclusions concerning Diminishing Returns win percentages?

[gamer4life]

Bryant you seem like the best person to ask,so he goes what does tes have thats better than ant and why? I have been playing dredge for a wile now. I also built belcher,the thing is is that you offten lose to fow. Tes/ant have more utility than belcher thats why im intrested. Any helpful info or a list to start me off would be great:)

[Fossil4182]

Bryant you seem like the best person to ask,so he goes what does tes have thats better than ant and why? I have been playing dredge for a wile now. I also built belcher,the thing is is that you offten lose to fow. Tes/ant have more utility than belcher thats why im intrested. Any helpful info or a list to start me off would be great:)

Read the primer on the first page of this discussion. If you're interested in ANT you can check out the link here (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/legacy-storm-primer/)

[gamer4life]

Read the primer on the first page of this discussion. If you're interested in ANT you can check out the link here (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/legacy-storm-primer/)
THANKS FOR THE LINK,THE ARTICAL WAS GREAT. i dont get why cabol theropy isnt played over duress or thoughtsieze? theropy complaments eather one why not 2 duress 2 theropy 2 thoughtseize, and or somthing like that. also i dont see myself ever getting grimtutors.....lol there just so expensive. but anyways thanks agen.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant,

In the Primer, how many samples did you take in order to reach your conclusions concerning Diminishing Returns win percentages?

I didn't, another poster put them up.

[gamer4life]

yea thats who i was thanking,lol. so now that your on im all ears

[gamer4life]

woe lol i didnt read the hole thing sorry lol

[OurSerratedDust]

Bryant,

In the Primer, how many samples did you take in order to reach your conclusions concerning Diminishing Returns win percentages?


I didn't, another poster put them up.

This was me. Bryant, would you mind putting my name under that section in the primer?

And to answer your question, I played out the situation 50 times and for each of the 50, I tried every combination of mana. Obviously a larger sample size would have been better, but I think it gives some pretty reliable values.

My original post on the subject:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15028-Deck-T.E.S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=483044&viewfull=1#post483044

[Fossil4182]

This was me. Bryant, would you mind putting my name under that section in the primer?

And to answer your question, I played out the situation 50 times and for each of the 50, I tried every combination of mana. Obviously a larger sample size would have been better, but I think it gives some pretty reliable values.

My original post on the subject:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15028-Deck-T.E.S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=483044&viewfull=1#post483044

Thank you for the reply. I was planning on doing a similar project using Ad Nauseam and wanted to know the sample size. It will probably take me a week or so to get through those numbers, but I'll post it when I complete it.

[ThomasDowd]

Thank you for the reply. I was planning on doing a similar project using Ad Nauseam and wanted to know the sample size. It will probably take me a week or so to get through those numbers, but I'll post it when I complete it.

i imagine for ad nauseuem it is considerably harder due to the variables involved( life, cards used, what's in hand, how far you go) whereas returns gives you a "fresh" seven, but it's only seven where you are trying to assemble tutor + hellbent/ more storm options.

[Sigar]

So what will the list look like post-Misstep, and with Past in Flames in the catalogue?

[NQN]

Probably the same list.
As for PiF, I dont see that card beeing very great in TES builds as of now. It´s just too expensive and you need at least 2-3 Rituals to make it good but in TES, you have only 8 Rituals but 12 artifacts.
It may be good as a Wishtarget though...

[NQN]

Probably the same list.
As for PiF, I dont see that card beeing very great in TES builds as of now. It´s just too expensive and you need at least 2-3 Rituals to make it good but in TES, you have only 8 Rituals but 12 artifacts.
It may be good as a Wishtarget though...

[DarkJester]

In my next tournament i will test PiF as a maindeck one-off, replacing the Etw-Slot. It seems better to get it with an IT than a BW. But time and testing will show if this is good.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Seems like a second Ad Nauseam would just be better. The card is basically a blank if you draw it early, and if you're using infernal tutor, Ad Naus is probably a better target. To me, this card seems perfect for the board. Blow your load, they counter. Wish for PiF, do it again! The card gets better as the game drags on.

[thefringthing]

Idea for a post-Misstep, post-PiF TES-style deck:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning WIsh
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Flusterstorm
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
1 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

Some of my reasoning: with Past in Flames shoring up the matchup against blue a bit, we may no longer need the white splash for Chant effects. If we cut Chants and Silence, we gain the enormous benefit of much less shaky manabase. To keep the total amount of protection the same, I've added Flusterstorm. I often find myself casting Chants defensively (e.g. in response to opposing Glimpses and Dark Rituals), perhaps as often as half of the time. Flusterstorm is versatile and I conjecture that it can fill the role of Chant effectively. Without Chant, we can probably not play Diminishing Returns, so that slot has been replaced by a wish-target Past in Flames.

[jin]

Idea for a post-Misstep, post-PiF TES-style deck:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning WIsh
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Flusterstorm
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
1 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

Some of my reasoning: with Past in Flames shoring up the matchup against blue a bit, we may no longer need the white splash for Chant effects. If we cut Chants and Silence, we gain the enormous benefit of much less shaky manabase. To keep the total amount of protection the same, I've added Flusterstorm. I often find myself casting Chants defensively (e.g. in response to opposing Glimpses and Dark Rituals), perhaps as often as half of the time. Flusterstorm is versatile and I conjecture that it can fill the role of Chant effectively. Without Chant, we can probably not play Diminishing Returns, so that slot has been replaced by a wish-target Past in Flames.

You don't think thoughtseize would fill this role better?

This is not a rhetorical question, just an open ended one.

[Bryant Cook]

Idea for a post-Misstep, post-PiF TES-style deck:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning WIsh
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Flusterstorm
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Meltdown
1 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

Some of my reasoning: with Past in Flames shoring up the matchup against blue a bit, we may no longer need the white splash for Chant effects. If we cut Chants and Silence, we gain the enormous benefit of much less shaky manabase. To keep the total amount of protection the same, I've added Flusterstorm. I often find myself casting Chants defensively (e.g. in response to opposing Glimpses and Dark Rituals), perhaps as often as half of the time. Flusterstorm is versatile and I conjecture that it can fill the role of Chant effectively. Without Chant, we can probably not play Diminishing Returns, so that slot has been replaced by a wish-target Past in Flames.

Past of Flames is just weaker than the second Ad Nauseam in the maindeck, it's a dead draw in the early game. It only gets better as the game progresses, by then you can just Burning Wish for it.

You realize Orim's Chant is better than ever right now? With Misstep gone, Stifles, Snares, Pierces, and other situation cards are coming in against us. Chant shuts them all down, where Duress does not. It's why it's in the deck to begin with.

Flusterstorm is terrible, we play Lion's Eye Diamond.

I play Returns all the time without protection.

[thefringthing]

Past in Flames in the main may indeed be wrong. The second maindeck Ad Nauseam just feels very awkward to me. Maybe we should just be playing an additional land in that slot. (Badlands?)

I'm not arguing that Chant is worse post-Misstep than it was while Misstep was legal. The deck above was designed with the idea that Chant may no longer be necessary. Splashing for powerful protection hurts the mana. We can make the mana better by playing different protection. I think a mix of proactive and reactive protection (Duress + Flusterstorm) might be right, instead of additional proactive protection like Thoughtseize. I think the additional angle Flusterstorm gives you might be rewarding, especially to those with higher skill levels.

Admittedly, there is a bad interaction with Lion's Eye Diamond in that Flusterstorm can't protect Tutor+Crack. However, if Stifle returns to the format (bringing tempo decks with it) I think making some effort to scoop less to Wasteland is appropriate. (Flusterstorm also protects a natural or a non-LED Tendrils from Stifle.)

I continue to contend that unprotected Diminishing Returns (and even Diminishing Returns in general) are garbage, and any illusion of regular success with them is due to confirmation bias.

[Shax]

I continue to contend that unprotected Diminishing Returns (and even Diminishing Returns in general) are garbage, and any illusion of regular success with them is due to confirmation bias.

May I ask how long have you been playing TES?

Diminishing Returns is the best way to turn a losable game into a winnable one, and does not require life total to do it. It can make a players hand they kept on the first turn into a auto mulligan and force game loss. It used to have the function of making Burning Wish have more legal targets since you removed ten cards each use.

The times I have won off of a random Diminshing Returns is atleast over half against blue based control. It's a pretty viable way to win when options are not there otherwise.. Since TES has alot of routes to victory, having a hail mary in the bag of tricks is pretty nice since many opponents cannot read the exact plays TES will do besides having something to do with LED or Dark Ritual most of the time.

[John Cox]

Past of Flames is just weaker than the second Ad Nauseam in the maindeck, it's a dead draw in the early game. It only gets better as the game progresses, by then you can just Burning Wish for it.


I would argue for Past in flames over Ill-Gotten Gains (main deck)

[j_rb]

I have won so many games I have no business winning due to Diminishing Returns. That card can randomly be amazing and helps you win when you are in a losing situation. I've also won a couple games at 1 life off of a hail mary DR. The pros to DR highly outweigh the cons in my opinion.

I would also like to test a Past in Flames Maindeck over the 2nd Ad Nauseam. It might be better but who knows. It seems better against control than a 2nd ad nauseam or an igg, even tho the TES mu is good against control. Even more now that misstep is banned.

[Final Fortune]

I continue to contend that unprotected Diminishing Returns (and even Diminishing Returns in general) are garbage, and any illusion of regular success with them is due to confirmation bias.

May I ask how long have you been playing TES?

Diminishing Returns is the best way to turn a losable game into a winnable one, and does not require life total to do it. It can make a players hand they kept on the first turn into a auto mulligan and force game loss. It used to have the function of making Burning Wish have more legal targets since you removed ten cards each use.

The times I have won off of a random Diminshing Returns is atleast over half against blue based control. It's a pretty viable way to win when options are not there otherwise.. Since TES has alot of routes to victory, having a hail mary in the bag of tricks is pretty nice since many opponents cannot read the exact plays TES will do besides having something to do with LED or Dark Ritual most of the time.

What do you not understand about Diminishing Returns being the only cost efficient, Burning Wish enabled Storm engine available? Provided you know how much and which mana to float, Diminishing Returns is the fastest, safest option vs. aggro and the only "oh shit" button you have vs. aggro-control off Burning Wish. Until they unban Mind's Desire, which is never going to happen, you have to play with Diminishing Returns because it's the only Storm engine for Burning Wish that gives you a chance of winning when Empty the Warren's time window has already passed.

If you're honestly dropping games with Diminishing Returns vs. aggro-control that much, just SB an Infernal Tutor and go the cost inefficient, life dependent path.

@Thefringthing

Calling the second Ad Nauseam "clunky" boggles my mind, I'd play with the third Ad Nauseam if I could because naturally drawing Ad Nauseam is arguably one of the strongest plays in this deck.

Honestly, the MD is pretty much set and the only interesting argument I've seen is replacing MD Tendrils for MD ETW or the old 4 vs 3 Chrome Mox, 1 SB Infernal Tutor, proper disruption package debates.

PiH has been garbage fwiw, you can throw it in the SB for the odd times it's useful but that's about it. I wouldn't even cut IGG for it, because at least IGG is a useful SB option vs. aggro if you bring it in game 2/3.

[Final Fortune]

I continue to contend that unprotected Diminishing Returns (and even Diminishing Returns in general) are garbage, and any illusion of regular success with them is due to confirmation bias.

May I ask how long have you been playing TES?

Diminishing Returns is the best way to turn a losable game into a winnable one, and does not require life total to do it. It can make a players hand they kept on the first turn into a auto mulligan and force game loss. It used to have the function of making Burning Wish have more legal targets since you removed ten cards each use.

The times I have won off of a random Diminshing Returns is atleast over half against blue based control. It's a pretty viable way to win when options are not there otherwise.. Since TES has alot of routes to victory, having a hail mary in the bag of tricks is pretty nice since many opponents cannot read the exact plays TES will do besides having something to do with LED or Dark Ritual most of the time.

What do you not understand about Diminishing Returns being the only cost efficient, Burning Wish enabled Storm engine available? Provided you know how much and which mana to float, Diminishing Returns is the fastest, safest option vs. aggro and the only "oh shit" button you have vs. aggro-control off Burning Wish. Until they unban Mind's Desire, which is never going to happen, you have to play with Diminishing Returns because it's the only Storm engine for Burning Wish that gives you a chance of winning when Empty the Warren's time window has already passed.

If you're honestly dropping games with Diminishing Returns vs. aggro-control that much, just SB an Infernal Tutor and go the cost inefficient, life dependent path.

@Thefringthing

Calling the second Ad Nauseam "clunky" boggles my mind, I'd play with the third Ad Nauseam if I could because naturally drawing Ad Nauseam is arguably one of the strongest plays in this deck.

Honestly, the MD is pretty much set and the only interesting argument I've seen is replacing MD Tendrils for MD ETW or the old 4 vs 3 Chrome Mox, 1 SB Infernal Tutor, proper disruption package debates.

PiH has been garbage fwiw, you can throw it in the SB for the odd times it's useful but that's about it. I wouldn't even cut IGG for it, because at least IGG is a useful SB option vs. aggro if you bring it in game 2/3.

[Sea R Hill]

Flusterstorm is terrible, we play Lion's Eye Diamond.

And still you play Pyroblast...

[John Cox]

And still you play Pyroblast...
Pyroblast is a very debated and situational sideboard card. it works with LED in ways flutterstorm doesn't because you can cast it targeting a land prior to breaking the diamond.

[John Cox]

And still you play Pyroblast...
Pyroblast is a very debated and situational sideboard card. it works with LED in ways flutterstorm doesn't because you can cast it targeting a land prior to breaking the diamond.

[Sea R Hill]

Pyroblast is a very debated and situational sideboard card. it works with LED in ways flutterstorm doesn't because you can cast it targeting a land prior to breaking the diamond.
What a crazy play...no seriously one extra storm for one red is not a reason to play this card.
Flusterstorm is way more usefull because it hits discard spells like Toughtseize or Hymn to Tourach.

I just think it's funny/don't understand that Bryant says that Flusterstorm is terrible because it doesn't play well with LED while he plays Pyroblast in the board. Only advantage of Pyroblast is to counter a blind Counterbalance, which doesn't happen a lot of time these days.

[akmalik]

If someone don't know why we play some cards please read the primer.
Blast protects mainly your other 8 protection spells or counters random balance, clique,...
4 flusterstorm and 4 duress main with 3 pyroblast in the board is really bad with led.



e.) Protection/Utility - In the early days of The EPIC Storm the deck relied on laying down a Xantid Swarm and winning the turn after. Blue decks adapted to answer X/1 creatures on turn 1, meaning that the deck had to adapt to compete. Xantid was cut for Orim’s Chant, but is often in and out of the main deck to compliment Orim’s Chant. Also complimenting Chant is Duress, Duress is there to protect Orim’s Chant or to take problematic cards like Counterbalance out of the opponent’s hand. Out of the sideboard the deck plays Red Elemental Blast and/or Pyroblast to deal with Force of Will on Orim’s Chant mainly. However, it can also be used to kill a Counterbalance- a huge threat to The EPIC Storm. Recently with the printing of Silence, many people opt for a split between Orim’s Chant and Silence because of cards that name cards, such as – Runed Halo, Meddling mage, Cabal Therapy, ect.

[OurSerratedDust]

Flusterstorm hitting Hymn or thoughtseize is very relevant. You guys should give it a shot in the board sometime, instead of REB.

[Sea R Hill]

If someone don't know why we play some cards please read the primer.
Blast protects mainly your other 8 protection spells or counters random balance, clique,...
4 flusterstorm and 4 duress main with 3 pyroblast in the board is really bad with led.

Well, please read my posts all well.
I never said that 4 Duress and 3/4 Flusterstorm MD was good (it is indeed a bad choice imho). I said that the SB Pyroblasts are no better than the SB Flusterstorms because Flusterstorm hits way more things nowadays (now that CBTop is no longer a viable deck choice and that we see more discard spells like Thoughtseize or Hymn to Tourach). With that said, I still don't understand how can people think Pyroblast is good when Flusterstorm is "terrible".

[Gocho]

Flusterstorm hitting Hymn or thoughtseize is very relevant. You guys should give it a shot in the board sometime, instead of REB.

Divert is better. And we didn't play it for years.

[Draener]

The main advantage of pyroblast is when you DON'T have LED, but you have infernal tutor. In this case, flusterstorm would sit in your hand, stopping you from casting the tutor, unless of course you wanted to tutor up another flusterstorm.

[KobeBryan]

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning WIsh
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Flusterstorm
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

What do you think of this sideboard

3 jin gitaxis
3 reanimate
3 careful study
3 animate dead
3 entomb

Is it possible to change up the entire deck to a reanimate deck just to confuse the opponent, post board?

Any other suggestions is welcome.

[stasis]

You bw for what in that sideboard?

Gotta say im negative, but your ide could be possible if worked further on.

[r0ckstAr]

Storm eight, i'm going to play a burning wish, in response i crack LED. Ok, let's see my sideboard... Storm Nine ! I play Careful Study !

I think ANT may be the deck to do these kinds of tricks. In TES you have a number of slots for wish targets, thus it is really hard to change completely the deck with only 8(?) free slots.

[aljiichiban]

What a crazy play...no seriously one extra storm for one red is not a reason to play this card.
Flusterstorm is way more usefull because it hits discard spells like Toughtseize or Hymn to Tourach.

I just think it's funny/don't understand that Bryant says that Flusterstorm is terrible because it doesn't play well with LED while he plays Pyroblast in the board. Only advantage of Pyroblast is to counter a blind Counterbalance, which doesn't happen a lot of time these days.

IMHO, I would proactively wish for PiF instead if I'm facing Decks with Thoughtseize and Hymn and play my artifact mana. Then flashback it later. If they try to bring GY hate, it might be in our advantage because it can dilute their MD.

For me, flusterstorm is like Daze without the alternate mana cost, especially if they only played 1 spell, being thoughtseize and Hymn

[OurSerratedDust]

Divert is better. And we didn't play it for years.

I disagree. Flusterstorm can reliably hit Stifle, Pact of Negation (vs Hivemind) , Duress, Firespout (for EtW), opposing Silences and other stuff like that. Needing to counter multiple spells at once is not unheard of and being a storm deck, we can easily get storm counts greater than two if needed.

[jin]

I disagree. Flusterstorm can reliably hit Stifle, Pact of Negation (vs Hivemind) , Duress, Firespout (for EtW), opposing Silences and other stuff like that. Needing to counter multiple spells at once is not unheard of and being a storm deck, we can easily get storm counts greater than two if needed.


I said that the SB Pyroblasts are no better than the SB Flusterstorms because Flusterstorm hits way more things nowadays

I think replacing Pyroblast for Flusterstorm is interesting if you use Pyroblast purely for defense, but the problem is, most of the time Pyroblast is used to hit CB and Jace2, so I don't think Flusterstorm can fill that role. If you need to replace Flusterstorm with something, it'd be the other protection spells. But like people said, Flusterstorm/Pyroblast are both hard to use as stand alone protection. They are better used to protect other protection spells. That's why 2x Pyroblast makes sense in this deck.

Right now, I'm also at 3x Pyroblast because I'm not sure CB will come back in full force and the 3rd Pyroblast seems more useful than Krosan Grip right now. If CB comes back, then I'll probably play that in place of the 3rd Pyroblast, but Flusterstorm will never take this role for for me.


... (now that CBTop is no longer a viable deck choice and that we see more discard spells like Thoughtseize or Hymn to Tourach). With that said, I still don't understand how can people think Pyroblast is good when Flusterstorm is "terrible".

I do agree, that Hymn to Tourach is a problem (Thoughtseize, not so much).... I think Past in Flames fixes this though...

[Lunarclaw]

Hi all...Bryant cook a question for you ? in the opening post you have updated the base list , and i think also the sideboard options whit every deck , in some matchup you say to side out empty the warrens from the main but there is'nt in the main deck^^tks

obviously the shift defense grid / pyroblast is for the comeback of countertop right ?

i'm trying silent departure in the deathmark spot, when i have some decent testing i post again ^_^see ya

[thefringthing]

Silent Departure is pretty miserable against Stoneforge Mystic, but good against Reanimator dudes, I suppose.

[Tammit67]

Silent Departure is pretty miserable against Stoneforge Mystic, but good against Reanimator dudes, I suppose.

Wait... You board in cards to fight stoneforge mystic?

[jin]

Hi all...Bryant cook a question for you ? in the opening post you have updated the base list , and i think also the sideboard options whit every deck , in some matchup you say to side out empty the warrens from the main but there is'nt in the main deck^^tks

obviously the shift defense grid / pyroblast is for the comeback of countertop right ?

i'm trying silent departure in the deathmark spot, when i have some decent testing i post again ^_^see ya

Empty the Warren used to be main in the place of the second Ad Nauseam.


Silent Departure is pretty miserable against Stoneforge Mystic, but good against Reanimator dudes, I suppose.

Silent Department isn't great because the creature comes back, so you'll have to use it on the combo turn. This means that it'll use more mana. Deathmark ensures that it won't come back for awhile, so you can do it before the combo turn. Bounce is terrible as a sorcery. Bounce is only good at instant speed to do it at the end of an opponent's turn.

I probably won't board in Deathmark against SFM anyway unless I see Ethersworn Cannonist (I hate this guy).

[Gocho]

I disagree. Flusterstorm can reliably hit Stifle, Pact of Negation (vs Hivemind) , Duress, Firespout (for EtW), opposing Silences and other stuff like that. Needing to counter multiple spells at once is not unheard of and being a storm deck, we can easily get storm counts greater than two if needed.

We was talking about hitting Discard spells.
Obviously, Divert can't hit the same targets that Flutterstorms, but vs Hymn and Thoughtseize, is better.

[Lunarclaw]

Tks for all the answers , yes i'm not thinking of use Silent departure against SFM ( if they do me 2 mana Sfm i'm happy ) but against reanimator's creature or do you think is useless?Btw i know that the empty the warrens is the spot of the 2nd ad nauseam,but in the list in the first post and is updated some days ago he play 2 nauseam and zero empty md so i ask that thing ^^

[Deviruchi]

I'll gladly use Pyroblast because V.Clique and Merfolks are a lot more common than Hymn.decs in my metagame. -3 D.Grid +3 Pyro --- that is my starting position for two first post MMS-ban tournaments.

P.S. Please post your results if Flusterstorm were bonkers for you.

[thefringthing]

Wait... You board in cards to fight stoneforge mystic?Not for Stoneforge Mystic specifically, but I'll wish for Deathmark if I have the spare resources to do so. Letting a Batterskull connect must be avoided if possible.

[OurSerratedDust]

We was talking about hitting Discard spells.
Obviously, Divert can't hit the same targets that Flutterstorms, but vs Hymn and Thoughtseize, is better.

Oh, my bad. Fair enough.

[Tammit67]

Not for Stoneforge Mystic specifically, but I'll wish for Deathmark if I have the spare resources to do so. Letting a Batterskull connect must be avoided if possible.

If my opponent goes t2 mystic, t3 batterskull, there is definitely a window of oppurtunity to kill him. Without pressure, there is no reason why you can't kill him at 24 life. Batterskull isn't relevant.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah it's pretty easy to deal 24 damage with tendrils. If you only do 22, just wish for grapeshot and kill them with grapeshot. And 24 is taking into account the fact that the opponent hasn't fetched at all when they could have potentially fetched twice and 22 is definitely easy with TES. Batterskull is too slow against this deck especially post MM.

Silent departure is a solid wish target. Although it's almost the same as deathmark it's a little better since it hits any creatures except iona on blue, which we don't care about because we can win without casting any blue cards with ease since all of our combo spells are black and red with only our cantrips and some SB cards being blue.

Also Draener. You aren't sitting with flusterstorm in hand if you don't have LED; you CAN flusterstorm targeting your infernal tutor and then have the copies target the original flusterstorm to negate it so you don't have to pay the 1.

[j_rb]

Yea stoneblade is going to be a nearly auto-win MU for TES, IMO. I only lose to that deck when they get 3 missteps and a force in their opening hand, and even with that I have won through it a time or two... Silent departure seems like a solid sideboard card if you're expecting lots of reanimator wherever you play. I think it would have lots of potential as a sb card if the flashback was a couple less mana.

[thefringthing]

The thing about a Batterskull is that it doesn't just hit you once. If the 4 life is enough to get them out of Tendrils range for a turn, they're going to be 4 life further from Tendrils range next turn. It gets pretty hard to Fifteendrils someone when they're recurring a Vendilion Clique.

[j_rb]

The other thing about batterskull though is that it's hitting you on turn 4. Without misstep they will not have the pressure and countermagic to stop you from just going nuts on turn 2 or 3. Clique can be played around and recurring doesn't happen often unless they get a really good hand as most stoneblade decks only run 1 karakas. I don't think stoneblade will be a problem at all for TES once the misstep ban takes place. Also, going off with a DR or silenced igg is the only time the 4 life can be relevant, and usually it isn't off the DR. With 2 ad nauseams maindeck I have been hitting more consistent DR wins lately and really like it.

[Tammit67]

The thing about a Batterskull is that it doesn't just hit you once. If the 4 life is enough to get them out of Tendrils range for a turn, they're going to be 4 life further from Tendrils range next turn. It gets pretty hard to Fifteendrils someone when they're recurring a Vendilion Clique.

They can't both rush batterskull and have recurring clique and have enough countermagic to bust through a duress/silence, reasonably. Even if they do, you still can beat them. Sometimes you just gotta man up and go for it.

[Shimi]

@Bryant and others:
Did you ever tested one Wheel of Fate as a SB slot for a heavy BGW metagame?Sometimes I found it is more dificult to beat a Seize+Hymn+KotR/Waste+Deed than a wall of counters.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

No love for Xantid Swarm in the sideboard these days? Also, has anyone tried Flusterstorm?

[jin]

@Bryant and others:
Did you ever tested one Wheel of Fate as a SB slot for a heavy BGW metagame?Sometimes I found it is more dificult to beat a Seize+Hymn+KotR/Waste+Deed than a wall of counters.

Yeah, Rock and TA are both quite tough match ups. Generally, my plan is this:

play artifact mana.. draw.. go.. draw.. go.. ad nauseam.

But it doesn't always work as a fast clock can surely destroy you..



No love for Xantid Swarm in the sideboard these days? Also, has anyone tried Flusterstorm?

Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique trump Xantid Swarm. Also Merfolk runs Dismember now...

[JJ_JKidd]

AJ Kerrigan and Ari Lax has some premium stuff for us in SCG. They discussed Past in Flames but no actual decklist yet. ANd off course, Ari Lax is biased for UB AnT, while AJ K really loves TES. Fyi

[JeroenC]

Concerning Amsterdam, if I'd want to prepare for mirrors, are there any awesome techy cards I should be using? I've been considering Scattershot (but that's too gimmicky BY FAR) or just going for the 5c version since Chants are awesome (since I usually prefer UBR and discard).

[Bryant Cook]

No love for Xantid Swarm in the sideboard these days? Also, has anyone tried Flusterstorm?

Really guys? This thread has really gone to shit.

Flusterstorm has been discussed, please read the last few pages before posting.

Legacy does have Counterbalance, Jace, Vendillion Clique, Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, and other things that may trouble us. Instead of playing a conditional Spellpierce because it's a cute trick, play something that's actually useful and relevant such as Pyroblast.

Pyroblast has the benefit of never stopping you from becoming Hellbent too, which does matter if you've ever actually played the deck.

If people have questions about the decklist, read the opening post. I can't believe how many PM's I say this in every week, it's somewhere between 8-12. "Hey Bryant, sorry to bother you, I know you update the opening post with every new decklist you have. But could you just send me yours? KTHXBYE."

As for the guy who said my sideboarding strategies are outdated, I don't update the entire thing when I update the decklist. You'll have to figure out somethings on your own.

[Bahamuth]

Concerning Amsterdam, if I'd want to prepare for mirrors, are there any awesome techy cards I should be using? I've been considering Scattershot (but that's too gimmicky BY FAR) or just going for the 5c version since Chants are awesome (since I usually prefer UBR and discard).

Mirrors really depend on disruption. If you want to have the edge, you want Chants. A card that actually helps a ton and costs you only 1 SB slot, is a second AdN. Many lists can't really beat EoT AdN, and it's going to be the best card you can draw.

Extra AdN also has the upside of being boardable in other matchups I guess.

[paeng4983]

Originally Posted by JeroenC
Concerning Amsterdam, if I'd want to prepare for mirrors, are there any awesome techy cards I should be using?

Hmmm... You can use the counter spell from the commander. The U cc that counter with storm effect too. ^_^ Other than that, I cannot think of any other card (except for chants & silences).

[Kanti]

No love for Xantid Swarm in the sideboard these days? Also, has anyone tried Flusterstorm?


Flusterstorm seems horrible. I already despise the akward situations that Pyroblast brings up concering Hellbent or cracking LED's.

With that said Xantid Swarms are still perfectly good options. Just because control decks run removal doesn't mean they are going to side it in, especially when they don't know if have Swarm or not.

@Bryant: I know you have expoused your hate over Pyroclasm before, sticking to the claim that Grapeshot is much better (And I agree, Grape>Pyro in each and every way), but I have seen that you run x2 Deathmark in your latest lists, presumably to fight hate bears. Woudn't Pyro fill this role a lot better? In other words, Grapeshot>Pyroclasm>Deathmark?

Also do you ever find yourself in situations where a land got Wasted, and you have a Gemstone Mines that is quickly depleting? At the same time it sucks when City of Brass becomes inactive because of a low life total. What do you think of a 3/3 split between the rainbow lands?

[Dark Ritual]

@Bryant and others:
Did you ever tested one Wheel of Fate as a SB slot for a heavy BGW metagame?Sometimes I found it is more dificult to beat a Seize+Hymn+KotR/Waste+Deed than a wall of counters.

That's the role of diminishing returns; it's a good wish target against discard since all you generally need is one ritual, one LED, and a burning wish to negate all the discard they've drawn. Wheel of fate is bad and if they do backup their discard with a fast clock wheel of fate can do absolutely nothing due to you dying before you actually cast the spell. And the SB is incredibly tight as well.

I'm fine with merfolk dismembering a xantid swarm. That just add's 2 storm count basically making it very possible to play through their soft counters to just burning wish to tendrils them out without needing AdN or any real engine.

If you want an edge in the mirror pack more silence effects in the board; silence effects are the best cards in storm combo mirrors in my experience at least tendrils based storm combo mirrors.

I concur with Bryant. Flusterstorm isn't needed in here. Pyroblast is simply better. And to those people pestering Bryant about the decklist; read the OP. It isn't hard. I agree also with the SBing strategies/MUs section; if you can't figure out what should get boarded in and what should get boarded out, go play a different deck. It's pretty easy to figure out the boarding strategies and if you actually read the thread you'll see what's getting subbed in and out. A few pages ago Bryant openly stated he was replacing pyroblast with defense grid so those occupy the same SB slots so board accordingly at least for the next 2 days before Oct. 1st rolls around and we don't have to deal with misstep anymore.

[Sea R Hill]

Really guys? This thread has really gone to shit.

Flusterstorm has been discussed, please read the last few pages before posting.

Legacy does have Counterbalance, Jace, Vendillion Clique, Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, and other things that may trouble us. Instead of playing a conditional Spellpierce because it's a cute trick, play something that's actually useful and relevant such as Pyroblast.

Pyroblast has the benefit of never stopping you from becoming Hellbent too, which does matter if you've ever actually played the deck.


Well no Legacy doesn't have Counterbalance anymore. Jace is way too slow to be a problem.
Spellstutter Sprite sucks hard, only blue cards I see which may be good against TES are Clique and Snapcaster Mage.
And those annoying Creatures tend to get Thougthseized out. So choosing to hit discard spells over bad blue spells is not especially ridiculous. But maybe I can say that because I don't have a shitty manabase and I play Thoughtseize over Chant.

[Tammit67]

Hmmm... You can use the counter spell from the commander. The U cc that counter with storm effect too. ^_^ Other than that, I cannot think of any other card (except for chants & silences).

Sideboarded Telemin Performance (only 1)

No, it isn't worth it

[Bryant Cook]

Flusterstorm seems horrible. I already despise the akward situations that Pyroblast brings up concering Hellbent or cracking LED's.

With that said Xantid Swarms are still perfectly good options. Just because control decks run removal doesn't mean they are going to side it in, especially when they don't know if have Swarm or not.

@Bryant: I know you have expoused your hate over Pyroclasm before, sticking to the claim that Grapeshot is much better (And I agree, Grape>Pyro in each and every way), but I have seen that you run x2 Deathmark in your latest lists, presumably to fight hate bears. Woudn't Pyro fill this role a lot better? In other words, Grapeshot>Pyroclasm>Deathmark?

Also do you ever find yourself in situations where a land got Wasted, and you have a Gemstone Mines that is quickly depleting? At the same time it sucks when City of Brass becomes inactive because of a low life total. What do you think of a 3/3 split between the rainbow lands?

I prefer to play Xantid in spurts, you don't want to play it all the time because people will prepare for it. Ideally it'd be great all the time but it just isn't, people have multiple ways of answering the bug. Even Merfolk does now between Jitte, Dismember, and Gut Shot. It's just not the right time for Xantid.

I run two Deathmark because I board them in, I don't want the inconsistencies of 1 and 1. I've also had to kill Teegs with Swords on them before, it's not uncommon for those decks to play Swords. It's not a big deal, if someone wants 'Clasm over the second Deathmark, let them.

Life total is more important than counters on Gemstones.


Well no Legacy doesn't have Counterbalance anymore. Jace is way too slow to be a problem.
Spellstutter Sprite sucks hard, only blue cards I see which may be good against TES are Clique and Snapcaster Mage.
And those annoying Creatures tend to get Thougthseized out. So choosing to hit discard spells over bad blue spells is not especially ridiculous. But maybe I can say that because I don't have a shitty manabase and I play Thoughtseize over Chant.

Out comes the troll from under the bridge.

With Mental Misstep being banned many players are looking at Counterbalance, even if it's numbers had disappeared before Misstep. People are going to try to force Counterbalance within the next few months which is one of the reasons why Pyroblast is better Flusterstorm. Jace can be an issue, it's a win condition that disrupts us as a combo deck. It doesn't matter completely if it's slow, that's what control decks do. They slow us down.

Look at Starcitygames top 8 decks, if Spellstutters "suck hard" it probably won't be in any of the U/x decks right? I'm a person who looks at numbers and present trends in the metagame. They've been played within the last few months to answer Hive Mind decks, they're also splash damage against us. I wouldn't be shocked if we see lists playing them in the former misstep slots.

Thoughtseizing Cliques and Snapcasters is a possibility, although it's lifeloss in a deck that needs it's life total. Chant draws out disruption and forces them to play their hand instead of sitting back allowing you to take one piece, then cast another. Which is just one of the reasons Chant is better than Thoughtseize, but you keep on, keepin' on with your Flusterstorms and Thoughtseizes. Can't wait to see a top 8 list with them, because there certainly isn't any right now.

[j_rb]

The thing to remember about TES is it's versatile as fuck and rewards you for your play skill unlike ant which is linear as fuck and doesn't have as many lines of play. Pyroblast will always be a great card in the board because its so versatile against blue decks, unlike Flusterstorm, which hits a couple cards but is never that good. Without misstep pyroblast is always going to be one of the best anti-blue cards for tes because of the versatility of the card. If you look at just about the whole board it's all about versatility, which makes tes a beast of a deck to play.

Also, I don't see snapcaster being a big deal against tes... i just don't.

[lorddotm]

Can we lock this thread and delete every post that isn't the primer? Pretty much nothing else needs to be discussed, Bryant's primer is fucking perfect, and my primer will answer some shit too. You guys are just repeating yourselves and suggesting terrible cards... Flusterstorm... Seriously (http://magiccards.info/query?q=lion%27s+eye&v=card&s=cname)?

[dr.philgood]

Flusterstorm is clearly an anti-storm card, not that blue really needs more answers to storm and there are better options already. The deck is better served by proactive protection then reactive counter magic. IMO.
I would run spell pierce over flusterstorm if i was gonna use a blue counter (not that i think running a blue counter is a good idea). Just because it says storm on the card doesn't mean it belongs in the deck.

PiF is a conditionally good wish target, it definitely is a more mana intensive route then IGG, but could potentially generate a higher storm count, or allow you to go off after duressing away their counter magic when IGG would need chant protection to work, and DR would depend on chance instead of a clear path. And you will likely need at least 2 rituals in the yard, it not working with LED is really its greatest shortcoming. It's kind of corner case but i have been in relevant situations a few times...... i think, i don't know if i would have had enough mana to pull it off.

[Final Fortune]

Thoughtseizing Cliques and Snapcasters is a possibility, although it's lifeloss in a deck that needs it's life total. Chant draws out disruption and forces them to play their hand instead of sitting back allowing you to take one piece, then cast another. Which is just one of the reasons Chant is better than Thoughtseize.

IMO, the problem with Orim's Chant is that it doesn't address Vendilion Clique, which has become either the primary or secondary disruption in a lot of Tier 1 decks like NO RUG and Stoneforge.dec While Orim's Chant forces them to play Vendilion Clique, if they discard your threat then they've gained card advantage, informational advantage and positional advantage. With Thought Seize, and to a lesser extent Duress, you at least retain card parody and information parody. Granted our match up has improved vs. NO RUG thanks to Daze replacing Mental Misstep, but Vendilion Clique remains a serious problem to the Orim's Chant and Duress disruption package, Xantid Swarm is of dubious SB value vs a deck that wont SB out its removal because it doubles as disruption vs. Ad Nauseam (direct damage) and Pyroblast, IMO, has always been awkward with LED and/or Hellbent and still doesn't address game 1.

Despite Thought Seize being worse vs. Force of Will and other counter spells, I still it's good enough to be played vs them while being significantly better vs. Counterbalance, Vendilion Clique and SB hate bears while having the added possibility of playing a straight U/b/r manabase. I really think in the presence of turn 2 Vendilion Cliques, Orim's Chant is over kill vs. Force of Will and Thought Seize is a necessity (3xMD, 1xSB).

[JJ_JKidd]

My god I hope Wizards print some kind of new ritual like some instant pay 1 life: add B to your mana pool so that we can have some serious sh!t discussion over here and not the ever recurring Fkcerstorm whatever!