[Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm

[Pulp_Fiction]

I cut the Deathmarks for the Carpet of Flowers. I keep losing to Gaddeck Teeg + Counterbalance to knock me out of the event. It's rather frustrating, but I cant think of a way around it. I boarded in Grip/Wipeaway/Etruth/Chain and lost.

There is always the old Tomb of Urami tech! Also, if you keep playing against this kind of shit, try the EtW plan out of the board. Run 4 in the SB and board 3 in and just try to push hard for the turn 1 insanity. Or you could play Thoughtseize instead of Duress but that seems terrible. Although, if you see Teeg + CB consistently ... Thoughtseize is better than losing.

[badjuju]

Carpet of Flowers is SOLELY for versions that run DD. Since they tend to slow-roll the wins against U-based matchups, they get full mileage out of the card. The deck also tends to side out Chrome Moxen / Cabal Rituals, so they're effectively replaced with Carpets.

[BreathWeapon]

I tried Carpet of Flowers vs Tinder Wall and the only time Carpet of Flowers was better was for mana fixing Orim's Chant. I think for slow(er) Storm decks like AnT or DDFT it's the best non-Cabal Ritual accelerant they can have access to, we've got Rite of Flame, Simian Spirit Guide and Tinder Wall if necessary so the utility for us is marginal.

@Yesmilord,

Yeah, you've hit it on the head IMO, the 4xETW SB is the way to go - now that Zoo has pushed Pyroclasm out of the board in favor of Firespout it's pretty much the best game plan we can have post-board vs dedicated hate.

[Bryant Cook]

It's funny that you guys mention Empty the Warrens. I've been debating cutting the maindeck Ill-Gotten Gains for a Warrens to improve the blue match-ups.

If you think about it they serve the same role.
- Non-Ad Nauseam win con.
- Isn't life based.

Although the benefits to warrens
- Great if you open it.
- Makes you be able to combo with 4 mana turn 1.
- Doesn't rely on the graveyard.

Sideaffects
- Creature/Mass removal becomes relevant.
- Isn't win now.

But I'll look into testing this and a few in the sideboard and let people know.

[emidln]

With recent NLS lists I've been playing 2 ETW so I can auto side out 1 IGG for 1 ETW against anything blue (and then consider moving in the 2nd one if Spell Snare might be an issue). As far handling Teeg, I've been doing this with my Wishboard/Sideboard:

Wish targets:
1 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard solutions:
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Echoing Truth

Playing 7 duress main, I side out 4 Duress, 1 Burning Wish, 8th fetch for 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Slaughter Pact, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Infernal Tutor (my lone IT is in the sb). I haven't had any issue with G/W decks like G/W Survival, Zoo, or the various bant junk (outside of the normal CB issues).

I mention this as NLS lists currently swing between playing Rite of Flame and Cabal Rit and share upwards of like 54 cards with the fetchland-heavy TES lists.

[Pulp_Fiction]

With recent NLS lists I've been playing 2 ETW so I can auto side out 1 IGG for 1 ETW against anything blue (and then consider moving in the 2nd one if Spell Snare might be an issue). As far handling Teeg, I've been doing this with my Wishboard/Sideboard:

Wish targets:
1 Deathmark
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard solutions:
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Echoing Truth

Playing 7 duress main, I side out 4 Duress, 1 Burning Wish, 8th fetch for 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Slaughter Pact, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Infernal Tutor (my lone IT is in the sb). I haven't had any issue with G/W decks like G/W Survival, Zoo, or the various bant junk (outside of the normal CB issues).

I mention this as NLS lists currently swing between playing Rite of Flame and Cabal Rit and share upwards of like 54 cards with the fetchland-heavy TES lists.

Those 6 different cards being 4 Top, 1 DD, and 1 Meditate I am assuming. I have looked on the stormboards, deckcheck, and here and have yet to see a NLS list with Rite of Flame in it. Could you post a list in here or PM me what these lists look like. I am pretty sure I know what you are cutting but it just seems weird and almost like it wouldn't function nearly as effective. But finding room for 7 Duress (4 Duress 3 Thoughtseize I am assuming) as well as 4x Rite? That seems ... really strange.

I really like the idea of the EtW plan. But is it more effective than playing 1 Wipe Away and 2 Grip in the SB? You board out pretty much the same cards, and you would no longer have to run Swarm in the main (I would but thats just me). Also, wouldn't -1 IGG, -2 MT and +3 EtW into the deck really hurt AdN reveals? When boarding in EtW I think I would actually prefer to keep SSG in since it helps so much against Daze and turn 1 Rit + LEDs and you can still cast it!

[BreathWeapon]

The number of Empty the Warrens in the deck is more of a benefit than a hindrance to Ad Nauseam in the same way the number of Simian Spirit Guides is, you usually find your 4 damage results in a card that'll let you go off sooner than you would have been able to if you had kept digging for a Tendrils of Agony based win with +4 life.

Also ETW is way better than removal, TES wants to use speed and alternate strategies to circumvent the hate, it doesn't want to use removal to answer hate because it's a waste of time and resources in a tempo war vs. Tarmogoyf.

[Bryant Cook]

The number of Empty the Warrens in the deck is more of a benefit than a hindrance to Ad Nauseam in the same way the number of Simian Spirit Guides is, you usually find your 4 damage results in a card that'll let you go off sooner than you would have been able to if you had kept digging for a Tendrils of Agony based win with +4 life.

Also ETW is way better than removal, TES wants to use speed and alternate strategies to circumvent the hate, it doesn't want to use removal to answer hate because it's a waste of time and resources in a tempo war vs. Tarmogoyf.

I don't agree at all with any of this. Remember why we cut the second Ad Nauseam? Life loss was a huge issue, comparing to the second Ad Nauseam you're adding +3 to the deck ontop of something that wasn't accepted. While I may want an Empty the Warrens maindeck. I do think adding more would be more of a pesterence than a benefit.

As for Removal vs Empty the Warrens. I do not think either or can take place of the other. While comboing out faster is always nice, some times you can't win turn one and Counterbalance happens on turn two. You need a solution.

[mossivo1986]

I don't know if this is a commonly asked question. I read the primer, and i've done quite a bit of testing with Cook's model. I am wondering what the replacements for Xantrid swarm would be in his model. I am not a fan of the card and i'm wondering if there might be another option.

[Bryant Cook]

+1 Chant
+1 Duress

[BreathWeapon]

The difference is the 2nd Ad Nauseam is useless while the 1st Empty the Warrens is a card you can resolve, having 1 to 3 copies in the MD is better than having 1 Ill Gotten Gains and X+ Ad Nauseams because the Empty the Warrens isn't a blank while flipping. Obviously having a lot of 4cc cards is potentially GG off Ad Nauseam, but so is having re-active instead of pro-active solutions like Krosan's Grip which are either dead in your hand or a Lightning Bolt and dead while flipping (I'm assuming you're cutting Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains for Empty the Warrens, so we're only talking +1 4cc card here).

I've just never found TES to be the kind of deck that supported re-active solutions in the MD well, we deal with Spell Pierce by SBing Xantid Swarm, altering the disruption instead of answering the hate. You can deal with Stax, Counterbalance and hate bears in the same way, alter your threats instead of answering the hate and force them to keep in Swords to Plowshares for Xantid Swarm or Firespout for Empty the Warrens game 3.

[Bryant Cook]

Has anyone said they're cutting Tendrils? I'm certainly not. I'll sideboard one out for a ETW, but I'm not cutting one.

Who is playing MD reactionary spells such as Grip? Where is this coming from?

Flipping multiple ETW is just as bad and as useless as a 2nd Ad Nauseam.

Sorry that none of this is in paragraph form. I just woke up.

[BreathWeapon]

We're not on the same page, I was talking about SBing in Empty the Warrens and not MDing them; hopefully that'll clear the confusion.

Edit: And flipping 1 Empty the Warrens isn't as bas as flipping the 2nd Ad Nauseam in the deck, my point was you can resolve the Empty the Warrens where the 2nd Ad Nauseam (assuming 2 copies in the deck total) is worthless. Obviously the 2nd Empty the Warrens you flip is worthless to, I wasn't taking multiples into account I was considering 1 copy of ETW vs the 2nd copy of Ad Nauseam in the deck.

[troopatroop]

Edit: And flipping 1 Empty the Warrens isn't as bas as flipping the 2nd Ad Nauseam in the deck, my point was you can resolve the Empty the Warrens where the 2nd Ad Nauseam (assuming 2 copies in the deck total) is worthless. Obviously the 2nd Empty the Warrens you flip is worthless to, I wasn't taking multiples into account I was considering 1 copy of ETW vs the 2nd copy of Ad Nauseam in the deck.

The second Ad Nauseam is worthless after you cast the first, but playing two increases your chance of opening it. Not worthless.

[alderon666]

We're not on the same page, I was talking about SBing in Empty the Warrens and not MDing them; hopefully that'll clear the confusion.

Edit: And flipping 1 Empty the Warrens isn't as bas as flipping the 2nd Ad Nauseam in the deck, my point was you can resolve the Empty the Warrens where the 2nd Ad Nauseam (assuming 2 copies in the deck total) is worthless. Obviously the 2nd Empty the Warrens you flip is worthless to, I wasn't taking multiples into account I was considering 1 copy of ETW vs the 2nd copy of Ad Nauseam in the deck.

If your opponent is playing MD answers to 1/1 tokens or even has a very large board position/life link guys EtW is as bad as flipping the second Ad Nauseam.

[JeroenC]

Actually, it's not. It's one life difference, which is a significant difference while flipping AN cards in TES. At least, so I've found.

[Bryant Cook]

Actually, it's not. It's one life difference, which is a significant difference while flipping AN cards in TES. At least, so I've found.

Wrong. It rarely matters.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I took TES to my local tournament tonight and made it to a top 4 split going 4-1-1. I don't have the time to write a tournament report tonight, but I will post one tomorrow. Here is the list I played followed by the matchups I had:

4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Duress
2x Xantid Swarm
1x IGG
1x Simian Spirit Guide
1x AdN
1x Tendrils

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea

Sideboard

2x Krosan Grip
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Wipe Away
1x Duress
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Slaughter Pact

Wish Targets

1xEmpty the Warrens
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
1x Grapeshot
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Eye of Nowhere

Just 2 slight tweaks from my last list. And here are the matchups I had:

Round 1 - 4c CB Thresh (0-2)
Round 2 - BYE!!! (2-0)!!!
Round 3 - Enchantress (2-0)
Round 4 - U/w/g CB Thresh (2-1)
Round 5 - Burn (draw)
Round 6 - DDANT Hybrid - (2-0)

[BreathWeapon]

The second Ad Nauseam is worthless after you cast the first, but playing two increases your chance of opening it. Not worthless.

Can we stop misconstruing each other's comments? Yes, the 2nd Ad Nauseam increases the odds of opening Ad Nauseam, and no it's not relevant because we're speaking in the context of resolving an Ad Nauseam and revealing cards.

@Alderon666.

Count the number of Engineered Explosives in the opponent's deck, then count the number of Counterbalances in the opponent's deck and consider whether or not the number of Engineered Explosives in the opponents deck is < than the number of Counterbalance and finally ask yourself whether or not those Engineered Explosives even remain in the MD post-board.

Yeah, Rhox Warmonk kind of sucks for us, welcome to the world of no perfect solutions.

[Bryant Cook]

You have to keep in mind the rise of Firespout.

[BreathWeapon]

You have to keep in mind the rise of Firespout.

That's my point, Firespout is 3cc and replaced both Pyroclasm and Engineered Explosives in a lot of SBs, we can race that on the play now.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

That's my point, Firespout is 3cc and replaced both Pyroclasm and Engineered Explosives in a lot of SBs, we can race that on the play now.

IF you go first and IF they dont have countermagic and IF you have the hand to drop warrens turn 1 then yes, you can race. However, real life isnt magical dreamland and thats not going to happen every time. This isnt belcher.

[alderon666]

I like having Empty as a backup plan. "Having" to play it because it's replacing an Ad Nauseam sounds really lame, as this deck is designed to play Ad Nauseam as fast as possible and win from there.

Just face it, 99% of the times casting Ad Nauseam > Empty the Warrens, as win now > maybe win 2 turns later. For god sake, I swear to god I've seem Zoo race 10-12 tokens on turn 1 from Belcher when Belcher was on the draw. We have enough chances already to do some stupid number of tokens with Rituals/LED/Burning Wish.

[badjuju]

/snip

Looking forward to your report.

Saw that you swapped the number of Duress with Xantid Swarms.
I'm still not 100% sold on the sideboard (I'd want Shattering Spree and Cleanfall somewhere, but then again I still expect to see Dragon Stompy and Enchantress show up at my meta), but the MB has been very consistent for me. I do have to say though that I've never really dug the Badlands. I almost always rather have a Volcanic or Sea - any comments here? (I know it's there for like if you have a Duress / Rite of Flame hand, but that hasn't happened for me yet).

[BreathWeapon]

IF you go first and IF they dont have countermagic and IF you have the hand to drop warrens turn 1 then yes, you can race. However, real life isnt magical dreamland and thats not going to happen every time. This isnt belcher.

No shit, when you solve the TES vs. Balance/Top match up you let me know, until then we've got to use whatever strategies and meta-shifts we can to our advantage; Zoo creatures have an ass of 3, thus SBs are replacing Pyroclasm with Firespout and giving us a potential opening to exploit the 2cc/3cc difference by resolving ETW and racing on the play or resolving ETW and disrupting with Duress on the draw before they can play their sweeper.

The rise of Zoo and the preference of Firespout over Pyroclasm has improved the viability of the Empty the Warrens plan vs. the Balance/Top match up, that's what I was trying to get across.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

No shit, when you solve the TES vs. Balance/Top match up you let me know, until then we've got to use whatever strategies and meta-shifts we can to our advantage; Zoo creatures have an ass of 3, thus SBs are replacing Pyroclasm with Firespout and giving us a potential opening to exploit the 2cc/3cc difference by resolving ETW and racing on the play or resolving ETW and disrupting with Duress on the draw before they can play their sweeper.

The rise of Zoo and the preference of Firespout over Pyroclasm has improved the viability of the Empty the Warrens plan vs. the Balance/Top match up, that's what I was trying to get across.

My point, is that the decks that are switching to firespout have the tools to slow us down to make spout relevant.

And as far as solving the matchup, tight play and a combination of blasts and xantid has always done it for me.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Here is the tournament report on what happened on Wednesday:
Round 1 – 4C CB Thresh (0-2)
G1- t1 Swarm is met with Swords on turn 1 then I draw Duress and see 3x Force and blue cards … 2 Goyfs finish the game quickly
G2 – turn 1 Swarm is swiftly met with turn 3 Firespout in the main and after Duress I see yet again double Force and Swords. He draws a CB 2 turns later and there isn’t a lot I can do. I actually would have won this game had I ran a Thoughtseize I would wish for, during that 2 turn window before CB hit but .. whatever.
SB: -4 MT, -1 SSG, +2 Grip, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Duress, +1 Swarm

Round 2 – BYE!!! YEAH!

Round 3 – Enchantress (2-0)
G1 – I open up a weird hand of: Swarm, 2x DRit, IGG, Petal, Burning Wish, Gemstone Mine. Since I know he is playing Enchantress, I am on the play and go Rit, Rit, Petal, IGG, and bring back Rit, Rit, Burning Wish. The mindtwist delays him, and I know about 3/5 of my deck just wins the game instantly at this point. He plays land go. Next turn I draw Rite and make 10 tokens that go the distance.
G2 – I open up a turn 1 IT + LED into and draw and win.

Round 4 – 3C CB Thresh (2-1)
G1 – He has no answer for turn 1 Swarm and I IGG him out on turn 3.
G2 – I make a serious error here. I keep a weird opening hand of: 3x IT, Wipe Away, Grip, and 2x lands. The hand actually works itself out, but I can not draw a damn Duress for the life or me. So when my opponent has 3x cards in hand I am forced to go off or die next turn. I wished for DReturns a turn before that (yeah, another game where I need a Thoughtseize in the board) and my hand looks like this: IT, LED, LED, Rite, Rite, DReturns, and I have a Chrome Mox in play on blue, 3 lands in play and draw a 4th. He has a EE in play for 0. I run DReturns into his Force (activates Top for a blue card). Then I combo out with a lot of mana and am forced to go IT, BW, Tendrils since he is at 16. So I play LED and for some unexplained reason I don’t drop the 2nd LED. I believe that I was thinking WAY too far ahead and was only focusing on mana (since I assume he has Daze + something irrelevant). I was also thinking that I can’t use the mana from both and just didn’t drop it, this cost me the game, and I was thinking about losing both to EE but not sure why. I play all my cards and IT, into BW and when I cast BW I run into double Spell Pierce … I am 1 mana short of getting Tendrils. Had I forced him to blow up the EE, I win. I haven’t punted a game like this in a long time and am still upset that I fucked up like this. But I simply over-analyzed the situation and it cost me.
G3 – Turn 1 Swarm into turn 2 AdN.

Round 5 – Burn – We Both ID.

Round 6 – DDANT (2-0)
G1 - I open a beautiful hand of: Mire, Duress, Petal, Swarm, IT, LED, Ponder. He mulls to 6 and plays Tundra go. I draw Brainstorm and Duress him seeing: Silence, Chant, DRit, Top, and something else, I take Top and play Petal, Swarm, go. He draws and passes. I attack with Swarm and try to draw out Chant, nope. Ponder reveals another LED. Next turn I attack with Swarm again, he doesn’t Chant, I have LED, LED, IT in hand, GG.
G2 – I mull to 5 and keep a decent hand. He plays turn 1 Swarm. On his 3rd turn he goes for the AdN and gets really unlucky. He reveals 1 Petal, 1 CRit, and nothing else. He decides to keep flipping and hits DD at 3 life. I hate winning like this but, it happens.

Thus far the deck has been performing very well. As far as maindeck Swarms go … I am going back up to 3. I just love that card in here. It is very situational, and right now my meta loves Spell Pierce, Disrupt, and Divert as their combo hate so … he works quite well! As far as running Swarms in the main, just analyze your meta and see if it will work. If you have a lot of Tempo, don’t run it, but if you constantly see Probasco Blue bullshit then certainly run it.

The Grip VS EtW debate continues on. I am more partial to anything that makes the list more consistent and that would be the Grip plan. Not only is it a lot safer, but IMOP it works better. You don’t have to have it in your opening hand like you do with EtW. And EtW is easily answered since basically all CB lists are running some combination of Firespout and EE. While it is awesome just plowing through Force and making a bunch of Goblins, this is not Belcher. Questions, comments

@yesmilord: I think Badlands is a necessary evil. I am glad I have it but oftentimes don't like seeing it. I really want a Bayou or Trop in there but that would just be terrible unless the land count is upped to 14, which truly kills any chance DReturns has of being effective. I have tried most configurations and DReturns wins a lot in the 11-12 land builds and is about 50/50 in the 13 land builds, but casting DReturns is a lot better than not and just losing when you can't get anything going.

[Bryant Cook]

The Grip VS EtW debate continues on. I am more partial to anything that makes the list more consistent and that would be the Grip plan. Not only is it a lot safer, but IMOP it works better. You don’t have to have it in your opening hand like you do with EtW. And EtW is easily answered since basically all CB lists are running some combination of Firespout and EE. While it is awesome just plowing through Force and making a bunch of Goblins, this is not Belcher. Questions, comments

@yesmilord: I think Badlands is a necessary evil. I am glad I have it but oftentimes don't like seeing it. I really want a Bayou or Trop in there but that would just be terrible unless the land count is upped to 14, which truly kills any chance DReturns has of being effective. I have tried most configurations and DReturns wins a lot in the 11-12 land builds and is about 50/50 in the 13 land builds, but casting DReturns is a lot better than not and just losing when you can't get anything going.

Well you can always run both. It's what I think I may be doing. Has anyone tested the new ETW plan yet? I'm having a hard time being up at school and all.

Badlands? It doesn't cast Brainstorm or Ponder. It's basically a dead draw in your opener if it's your only land.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Well you can always run both. It's what I think I may be doing. Has anyone tested the new ETW plan yet? I'm having a hard time being up at school and all.

Badlands? It doesn't cast Brainstorm or Ponder. It's basically a dead draw in your opener if it's your only land.

I did some testing a little while ago against whienot, he was running a generic CB Thresh list. With my list I went 3-2 postboard running my standard build then we switched to SBs. I tested the EtW plan by running 4x Duress, 3x Thoughtseize and another Thoughtseize in the board. It was absolutely AWFUL! Not running Swarm just sucks. You run into all the bullshit and I even had my awesome turn 1 win thwarted by Force on Petal. This deck is not Belcher. We only played 4 games and I won 1. After the 4th I had had enough, you have no control or certainty whether or not what you are doing is going to work. They have so many answers and its just ... bleh. You cast a ton of shit from you hand and hope they can't answer it. Then you go into topdeck mode. It was horrible, I don't need to test that idea anymore than those 4 games. People can but I guarntee you will have similar results. Grips + Swarm + Duress are the way to go.

[JeroenC]

Is anyone else running this in Madrid?
I'm running a list with no maindeck IGG and one maindeck EtW. Generally makes the deck weaker but makes my game 1 against blue so very much better. Running 3 more EtW in the side, as well as 2 IGG. Game 2 against blue, I go all out on EtW mostly. If I just won on EtW, I sometimes side conservatively so their token hate is rendered useless. Against non-blue decks, I drop the maindeck EtW to give me the option of a maindeck IGG again. Game 3 against blue can really depend on what I think they might board.
I chose not to go for the Grips as they aren't as good against non-CB blue decks. EtW doesn't improve consistency, but it improves speed and it's been succesful for me so far.
If I have any colleagues in Madrid: good luck. I'm going in without byes but I don't intend to give up any time soon.

[JeroenC]

Sorry bout the doublepost.
Went 6-3 at the GP, only missing Day 2 by two play mistakes at 11.30pm in round 9. Two nights with 4 hours of sleep left me behind a wrecked person. Bummed out that I didn't make Day 2. Didn't need the EtW plan too often (was lucky enough to dodge most blue) but I'm 75% happy about it. Will start thinking of alternatives next week.
Also quite sure I want to run a third Mystical, I don't think I was ever unhappy to see it (though the possibility of me just playing NLS from tomorrow onward is high).

Will edit in a report either tomorrow or later next week. Or reply with one if any comments are given.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, forget about Empty the Warrens vs Counterbalance, because Carpet of Flowers + Vexing Shusher is the post board nuts vs the Counterbalance match up. You just drop Carpet of Flowers for the +2 mana per turn, slip Vexing Shusher thru' their Counterbalance and just drop all of your accelerants thru' Counterbalance activations by playing your 0 drop and then your 1 drop acceleration to force them to burn mana with Top.

It's way better than Pyroblast and Krosan Grip IMO.

[Bryant Cook]

Ok, forget about Empty the Warrens vs Counterbalance, because Carpet of Flowers + Vexing Shusher is the post board nuts vs the Counterbalance match up. You just drop Carpet of Flowers for the +2 mana per turn, slip Vexing Shusher thru' their Counterbalance and just drop all of your accelerants thru' Counterbalance activations by playing your 0 drop and then your 1 drop acceleration to force them to burn mana with Top.

It's way better than Pyroblast and Krosan Grip IMO.

Two card combos that don't win the game! Wooooooo!


How much sideboard space is this?

[BreathWeapon]

Two card combos that don't win the game! Wooooooo!


How much sideboard space is this?

Carpet of Flowers is a recurring ritual and Vexing Shusher is uncounterable disruption, it's not a two card combo it's synergy between two cards that you could run in Storm on their own merit.

8 slots, there's plenty of space, I have 1 open slot left.

[SuperBean]

I'm pretty sure that Carpet of Flowers is good for T.E.S, I don't feel very good about Shusher unless the mana situation is changed. Plus relying on getting two cards to fight hate it once is a terrible idea.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm pretty sure that Carpet of Flowers is good for T.E.S, I don't feel very good about Shusher unless the mana situation is changed. Plus relying on getting two cards to fight hate it once is a terrible idea.

Carpet of Flowers did change the mana situation, that's my point; neither card relies on the other to fight against hate, they just happen to fight against hate extremely well together.

[Pulp_Fiction]

You are just taking up to many SB slots and making the deck even more vulnerable to blasts and removal. Swarm serves a much different role than Shusher. Carpet of Flowers is good .... but not in TES, it has enough rituals and really doesn't need a ritual that is removed by EE and Grip.

[BreathWeapon]

You are just taking up to many SB slots and making the deck even more vulnerable to blasts and removal. Swarm serves a much different role than Shusher. Carpet of Flowers is good .... but not in TES, it has enough rituals and really doesn't need a ritual that is removed by EE and Grip.

Of course Xantid Swarm and Vexing Shusher serve different roles, what does that have to do with it? Vexing Shusher is no more vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares than Vexing Shusher is, and personally I see more SB Spell Pierce than I do Blue Elemental Blasts (and a Blue Elemental Blast on Vexing Shusher is just trading for a Rite of Flame or Burning Wish regardless). If opponents SB in Krosan Grip and keep in Engineered Explosives for Carpet of Flowers, I will laugh my fucking ass off at how terrible they are; PLEASE waste three mana on countering a Ritual, especially after it's already generated at least 2 mana ...

Too much SB space? I use 6 wish slots, 1 open slot and 8 dedicated slots to the aggro-control match up regardless, it's no different.

Seriously guys, come up with an actual argument or bother to play test boarding in the Carpet/Shusher package on the draw, the match up isn't solvable with Pyroblast and Krosan Grip and Empty the Warrens is exploitable if they anticipate it. Another option comprised of two already good cards in Storm combo shouldn't merit this much doubt right off the bat.

[Bryant Cook]

Of course Xantid Swarm and Vexing Shusher serve different roles, what does that have to do with it? Vexing Shusher is no more vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares than Vexing Shusher is, and personally I see more SB Spell Pierce than I do Blue Elemental Blasts (and a Blue Elemental Blast on Vexing Shusher is just trading for a Rite of Flame or Burning Wish regardless). If opponents SB in Krosan Grip and keep in Engineered Explosives for Carpet of Flowers, I will laugh my fucking ass off at how terrible they are; PLEASE waste three mana on countering a Ritual, especially after it's already generated at least 2 mana ...

Too much SB space? I use 6 wish slots, 1 open slot and 8 dedicated slots to the aggro-control match up regardless, it's no different.

Seriously guys, come up with an actual argument or bother to play test boarding in the Carpet/Shusher package on the draw, the match up isn't solvable with Pyroblast and Krosan Grip and Empty the Warrens is exploitable if they anticipate it. Another option comprised of two already good cards in Storm combo shouldn't merit this much doubt right off the bat.

Can you even think of six cards to take out of the maindeck to replace these with? I certainly can't. Swarm/Duress/Chant with Grips/ETW is more sucessful because they're a proactive solution where the other two are reactive.

Carpet of Flowers could only add one or two mana. Sit on Fetchlands/Wasteland/Mutavault while they kick out your teeth. This is especially bad with Shusher since he'll need next to a million mana to play through counterbalance/top.

[BreathWeapon]

I board out Simian Spirit Guides for Carpet of Flowers and Orim's Chant for Vexing Shusher in a straight 8 card for 8 card swap on the draw, Carpet of Flowers usually generates at least 2 mana when Counterbalance is active or retards their mana development and prevents them from pressuring you while you develop your board state (Land drops, Brainstorm/Ponders etc). I'm not against ETW, but Krosan Grip is a card I loath because it's a reactive instead of a pro-active solution to Counterbalance that does nothing if the opponent is holding counters and not resolving Counterbalance on me.

As an aside, I found an interesting Portal card for the SB called "Balance of Power," for 3UU you get a Diminishing Returns on the play that doesn't redraw your opponent's hand similar to how Slithermuse worked - I highly recommend it, it lets you combo off with Burning Wish immediately with no regard for drawing your opponent into Force of Will or playing into Engineered Explosives, which is excellent for when you're flying blind.

[Bryant Cook]

I played in Vestal last weekend. Very hungover.

Round One: Landstill
Game One: I ended up discarding Tendrils to LED and Ad Nauseam without a way to win. I ETW for 28. Silence, then Chant w/ Kicker on upkeep versus landstill. He had an Elsepth with a Token...I was at 4.

Game Two: He left Wrath in with his 3 EEs. My turn 2 ETW did not get there. Wrath + Cannonist.

Game Three: I had Turn 2 Xantid, with upkeep Chant for his turn 2 Cannonist. He plays swords on my upkeep, his turn Cannonist. Fuck me.

Lesson? Don't always count on your opponent to be a good player. Leaving in Wrath and Swords? What? Really? He never saw Xantid until game 3.

Round Two: Merfolk

Game One: Turn 1 ETW for 10.

Game Two: Turn 1 Duress, Nauseam.

Round 3: Merfolk

Game One: ETW for 12 on turn 1.

Game Two: He crushed my face.

Game Three: He had 3 Cursecatcher Daze and Force when I attempted to go off turn 3.

Needless to say 1-2 drop. Empty the Warrens seemed good. However, tough match-ups while not feeling the greatest.

[Doomsday]

What do you guys do to take care of Gaddock Teeg vs Zoo? It seems like the ones I played last night all had 4 between maindeck and
sideboard, and games when I saw multiples I was I dead in the water. Burning Wish for Grapeshot to kill one so I can go off next turn, then they just play another and I have no outs at all.

[Mark Sun]

To be fair Bryant, when I board for combo (LS), I'm used to TES/ANT enough that I keep in 2 StP & 3 Lightning Helix for it. Probably a result of paranoia/reading the combo threads on here. WoG, I really can't explain that one. Why EtW when you know he could have EE?

Probably playing this at a local tonight, to kind of test the waters (depends on what I see when I get there). The only things I've been doing is practicing in a vacuum, but from reading Bryant's reports I understand what I'm looking for during each matchup. No Stax, a couple of CB/Top. It seems like a match made in heaven. Quick question, is EtW better against Merfolk now that there are MD Echoing Truths? Or do we just not count on them to draw it, etc?

[nodahero]

Personally I feel it is more of a gut call. I often avoid that kill if I can. I would prefer to wait a turn and take my chances on Tendrils as opposed to the gobo method.

It also depends on game 1 or 2. So far I have never needed the Empty plan against Merfolk game 1 in any storm lists I have run. I have however used the Empty plan alot going into game 3 simply because by then my opponent often assumes I don't have them becasue they assume they would have seen them by game 3 and often will thus have no answer for the token menace.

[Bryant Cook]

Forked Bolt r
Sorcery Uncommon
Forked Bolt deals 2 damage divided as you choose among one or two target creatures and/or players.

Possible addition over a Deathmark?

[emidln]

It doesn't kill Iona, but Iona usually names black anyway. The one problem I can see is that it might not kill a hatebear with a jitte. I've run into several situations where something like Teeg or Canonist was commencing the beatdown by itself aided by jitte.

[nodahero]

I fully agree with Emidlin on that. I can't come up with a scenario where Forked Bolt is more useful than Deathmark.

[ninja_attack]

Has there been any significant changes that aren't updated on the opening post?

[Bryant Cook]

Nope. I haven't played Magic in two months. Last thing I tried was Empty the Warrens over Ill-Gotten Gains.

[ninja_attack]

Nope. I haven't played Magic in two months. Last thing I tried was Empty the Warrens over Ill-Gotten Gains.

(If you were able to test) did you like this change, and did it improve the matchup a lot?

One more question, against Counterbalance, does a TES player want to go all out and hope to win before Counterbalance resolves? or do you wait and look for an opening when they are doing something?

[JeroenC]

I've mostly tried to race to do my stuff before CBTop hits. Preferably before CB hits, even. It's worked out better for me than trying to get through it.

[emidln]

@ nodahero

Burning Wish->Forked Bolt, Forked Bolt is +3 storm for 1RR which is more efficient than anything else TES has for 3 mana right now (Grapeshot will be better at 4 mana, but you don't always have that). This would be a marginal reason to include it though.

[Bryant Cook]

(If you were able to test) did you like this change, and did it improve the matchup a lot?

One more question, against Counterbalance, does a TES player want to go all out and hope to win before Counterbalance resolves? or do you wait and look for an opening when they are doing something?

I posted my results of the day, I ended up going 1-2 drop, although I was hungover. Empty the warrens was fairly useful, you should read the post a few pages back.

It's really hand based to be honest, although the general consensus is to try and win as fast as possible. Exceptions are if you can Duress them and/or chant them first.

[nodahero]

@ Emidlin:

In that scenario wouldn't a card like Firebolt be MARGINALLY better? I can't think of a reason to really split up the damage from Forked Bolt but the ability to flash back Firebolt seems SLIGHTLY more relevant...

[Gocho]

You need a Sorcery to wish it with BW. But yeah, Chain Lightning would be better.

[Bryant Cook]

You need a Sorcery to wish it with BW. But yeah, Chain Lightning would be better.

Care to expand? I don't see how it's better at all. What 3 power creatures do we need to kill?

[nodahero]

I think he was saying this because there is zero reason AS FAR AS I CAN THINK where you would want to use a wish to grab a Forkbolt to kill 2 x/1s or an x/1 and hit a player for 1. Where if you grab a Chain Lightning you can kill any x/3 or hit the opponent to reduce the storm count an extra 1.5.

[Bryant Cook]

Emildn suggested this to me.

Recurring Insight 4uu
Sorcery Rare
Draw cards equal to the number of cards in target opponent's hand.
Rebound

What do people think?

[FredMaster]

I think that it should have costed 2-3 mana less but then not have Rebound :/
In that case it would have been viable. As it is now, I don't think it's worth a slot. You might wanna test it instead of Diminishing Returns (in case your frustrated with that one).

[Piceli89]

Having 6 mana avaiable, shouldn't you already be winning the game via IT+IGG from BWish or DReturns with some mana floating?
Terribly overcosted and situational.

[emidln]

Having 6 mana avaiable, shouldn't you already be winning the game via IT+IGG from BWish or DReturns with some mana floating?
Terribly overcosted and situational.

Wrong. The only situation this card isn't good in is if you're going to lose if you pass the turn. This is a Diminshing Returns that doesn't give your opponent another shot at countermagic, and if you fail to go off, you get another draw4-5 next turn (at which point you're holding at least 10 cards and if you don't win it's your own fault). This is a huge selling point because unlike IGG and DReturns, this works without a chant effect. In NLS we were testing Balance of Power at 5cc for half of this effect because needing a chant to win without life is awful. I'd gladly pay one mana more and draw an extra 3-5 cards. This is better in TES because you have more accel.

This will be a staple in Wish-based combo sideboards until they unban Mind's Desire or Windfall.

[Bryant Cook]

Wrong. The only situation this card isn't good in is if you're going to lose if you pass the turn. This is a Diminshing Returns that doesn't give your opponent another shot at countermagic, and if you fail to go off, you get another draw4-5 next turn (at which point you're holding at least 10 cards and if you don't win it's your own fault). This is a huge selling point because unlike IGG and DReturns, this works without a chant effect. In NLS we were testing Balance of Power at 5cc for half of this effect because needing a chant to win without life is awful. I'd gladly pay one mana more and draw an extra 3-5 cards. This is better in TES because you have more accel.

This will be a staple in Wish-based combo sideboards until they unban Mind's Desire or Windfall.

While I agree with you somewhat. My biggest conern would be why not get ETW in that situation?

[emidln]

While I agree with you somewhat. My biggest conern would be why not get ETW in that situation?

Modern control decks are packing EE + ETutor to find it (some Bant, UW, some Landstill), Firespout (4c CB, some Landstill), or ETruth (Merfolk). I mean, ETW gets you there most of the time. I'm one of the unluckiest people ever though, so most of the time for a normal person translates to "about 10%" for me since my opponent ALWAYS has the EE.

[Piceli89]

But..if you're going to draw 5 cards against "modern control decks", won't they have a counter in those 5? To play this new sorcery protected you need basically 9 mana, 1 for Chant/Duress plus 2+6 (which implies, to me, at least a LED involved). Of course you can play it alone or after having grabbed it by Bwish the turn after, but at that point perhaps casting Ad Nauseam is just better.

The card looks strong on paper, but requiring all that mana for a not-safe win is a perhaps a bit too much, even for an acceleration-heavy list like TES.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I think recurring Insight bear merit. Granted IGG loop is good and all but if your only tutor is BW then you either need to wish for Infernal and wait a turn, or go for D Returns. Overall, better than D Returns by far.

[emidln]

If they had a counter in their 5, they would have countered Burning Wish to begin with. That said, playing around a counterspell when your grip is 10 card is trivial.

[BreathWeapon]

Wait, wait, wait, is that seriously a Draw 7 with Rebound that doesn't re-draw for the opponent at 6 mana? That has to be the only card in this set that doesn't suck and they give it to Storm, LMFAO, thank you for pseudo Mind's Desire.

Snap calling the pre-order on this.

[Bryant Cook]

If I add this my sideboard looks like...

SB:1 Recurring Insight
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:2 Xantid Swarm
SB:1 Krosan Grip
SB:1 Wipe Away
SB:1 Chain of Vapor
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:2 Deathmark

Does this look right? This is with no IGG maindeck and a maindeck ETW.

[BreathWeapon]

You don't want to replace Diminishing Returns with Recurring Insight, you want to supplement it - having the 4cc Storm engine that you can either cast with LED or wish for and cast on the next turn is too important to cut when racing or top decking.

[Bryant Cook]

You don't want to replace Diminishing Returns with Recurring Insight, you want to supplement it - having the 4cc Storm engine that you can either cast with LED or wish for and cast on the next turn is too important to cut when racing or top decking.

So then we have 3-4 SB slots of just Storm combo enablers. Igg, Dreturns, RInsight, and possibly Infernal -> Ad Nauseam. Seems like a lot.

[BreathWeapon]

So then we have 3-4 SB slots of just Storm combo enablers. Igg, Dreturns, RInsight, and possibly Infernal -> Ad Nauseam. Seems like a lot.

I'd rather have more tactical options with BWish at varying CCs than SB removal cards I may never bring in

[Bryant Cook]

SB cards that get boarded in get more use than wish targets lets be honest. I'm pretty sure anyone who has ever played this deck knows this.

[BreathWeapon]

SB cards that get boarded in get more use than wish targets lets be honest. I'm pretty sure anyone who has ever played this deck knows this.

Personally I find Deathmark(s) pretty thin when you've already got bounce and Grape Shot, there's a lot of redundancy in that SB IMO.

[ninja_attack]

Is there anyway to metagame toward Countertop decks, while still keeping the consistency and ability to beat zoo? I realize empty the warrens is supposed to help this, but since many lists play explosives and/or firespout... its difficult.

[Gibsonmac]

Personally I find Deathmark(s) pretty thin when you've already got bounce and Grape Shot, there's a lot of redundancy in that SB IMO.

you need that redundancy for med. mage, teeg, and cannonist... any of them resolved is gg without answers

[Bryant Cook]

I just won a Japanese foil Recurring Insight. I'll be done with college in two weeks, which means I'll be playing again. I'll let you know what I think about the card then.

[paeng4983]

hello there!
i've read some of the pages in this thread.
and i think this is the appropriate thread
for me to post my deck.

after our big local legacy tournament here
in the Philippines last march 27, 2010, i suddenly
decided to play a combo deck for the next big local legacy
tournament. as i browsed the net searching for a
feasible deck for me to use, i learned that most of the
powerhouse combo decks were using the following:

LED
burning wish
infernal tutor
underground sea
fetches

ok. most of these cards that i saw were not present in my pool.
determined to have a combo deck, i searched my pool
for cards that can i use/ include in my deck. and here's what
i have:

sorceries
1 tendrills of agony
1 empty the warrens
4 rite of flame
3 duress
4 ponder

instants
1 ad nauseum
4 mystical tutor
4 brainstorm
1 reclaim
3 pact of negation
1 chain of vapor
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 manamorphose

artifacts
4 chrome mox
4 lotus petal
1 chromatic sphere
2 Sensei divining top

lands
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
2 undiscovered paradise

and as for my SB here's my list
4 tormod's crpyt
1 slaughter pact
1 PTE
1 deathmark
1 disfigure
1 echoing truth
1 extirpate
1 silence
1 REB
1 hurkyl's recall
1 lightning bolt
1 duress

i know my list above is not that solid as
compared to the list in this link http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=The+Epic+Storm&format=Legacy
i just want to ask for your thoughts/ suggestions about this build of mine.
^_^

i already played this build in three weekly legacy tournaments here.
the 1st tournament was in pasig were i finished 4-1.
the second was in los banos were i finished an awful 0-4.
and lastly, in cavite were i ended 2-2-1.

[kicks_422]

It looks pretty solid considering it's what you were able to scrounge up from what you have, but I think you should not run SDT. It hurts too much with City of Brass and depletes your Gemstone Mines. If you want an additional cantrip, run something like Serum Visions instead.

Also, are the 4 Tormod's Crypt in the SB entirely for the Reanimator match-up? Because you should be faster than all the other graveyard decks.

This deck more resembles Nausea than TES though, with Ad Nauseam thrown in instead of Helm of Awakenings and Meditates.

[mchainmail]

Also, Cabal Ritual in a deck without fetches seems poor. I'd almost suggest Seething Song (yeah, I know you don't get relevant mana from it) instead.

[Ozymandias]

Instead of Forked Bolt, you could try Flame Slash, which is the other R Sorcery from Rise that deals 4 to a creature. I'm not sure what hatebears you're scared at that have that toughness, but it's something that can be kept in mind for hatebears in nongreen, nonwhite colors, or even a particularly dangerous beater.

[paeng4983]

@ Ozymandias
flame slash is a nice weapon against those creature who
has thoughness x/4 and below. but i'd rather kill (for an
example) teeg or cannonist in my opponent's end of turn
rather than in my 1st main phase.

@ mchainmail
thanks for the explanation about the fetch and cabal ritual harmony.
now i understand why they put fetches in this deck - for threshold
purposes.. hehehe im so noob when it comes to combo... :)

@ kicks
long time no hear/talk man! i bet you already heard of the various legacy
tournaments that are scheduled on may16 (LCA, molino cavite), on may22
(TFF 2nd event, BCI makati), and on june12 (side event GP manila, SMX MOA).
hope to see you play again with us. :)
regarding your comment, yup the tormods are there for the ichorid match-up and
reanimators. :)

[kicks_422]

[QUOTE=paeng4983;455564@ mchainmail
thanks for the explanation about the fetch and cabal ritual harmony.
now i understand why they put fetches in this deck - for threshold
purposes.. hehehe im so noob when it comes to combo... :)[/QUOTE]

And for their synergy with SDT and Brainstorm.

[Bryant Cook]

I played in the Vestal event yesterday with 129 people. I was in contention the last round and would've been the 7th or 8th seed if I had won. My opponent top decked a well time'd EE to win the game.

Maindeck Empty the Warrens over IGG was incredible all day long.

Recurring Insight was a dead sideboard slot.

[Piceli89]

Recurring Insight was a dead sideboard slot.

Because it's too costy or because you didn't have the opportunity to cast it?

[Bryant Cook]

Because it's too costy or because you didn't have the opportunity to cast it?

Both?

I had chances to cast it but I was a mana short or once I had enough mana my opponent didn't have enough cards in hand to make it worth while.

[paeng4983]

i played my build in a local legacy here,
and it was only then that i began to
understand the power of ETW.
instead of waiting for my mystical tutor
brainstorm and ponders for digging and
fetching AD, a 1st turn 6 8 10 gobs
off ETW's storm 3 4 5 spells
[petal, rite of flame, rite of flame, manamorphose,
ETW = 10 nasty goblin tokens! :) i love it!]
token can really be devastating.

during the month of april, i always go
for the AD-tendrills way - which i had a
difficulty in executing it because of the
counterwalls and disrupt effect here in
our meta.

i might use this deck again for this weekend's
major tournament here in the philippines.

by the way, here's my results
at yesterday's game
rd 1 zoo
i was able to build the lethal storm count needed but i
mis-use and mis calculate my mana sources. as a result i wasn't able to cast tendrills

rd 2 sui
was able to go off on both turn two. tendrills ftw

rd 3 elf combo
not just one but two thorns on his table - it really sucks big time.

rd 4 merfolks
wasn't able to go off because of his ton of permission spells.

rd 5 sui
1st turn ETW producing 6 and 8 gobs tokens gave me the win need
to end my day with a 2-3 win-loss card.

[Bryant Cook]

I made top four in my local tonight. I was trying out Eye of Nowhere in the sideboard. I actually lost a game because it wasn't Infernal Tutor. I'll be making the switch back.

Once again, the maindeck Warrens was amazing.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I made top four in my local tonight. I was trying out Eye of Nowhere in the sideboard. I actually lost a game because it wasn't Infernal Tutor. I'll be making the switch back.

Once again, the maindeck Warrens was amazing.

Why did you cut an action spell from the wishboard? Eye is supposed to replace something like: Spree, Cleanfall, or Deathmark. What does your wishboard look like? Are you running more than 7 targets?

[Bryant Cook]

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Krosan Grip
SB:1 Wipe Away
SB:2 Xantid Swarm
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:1 Chain of Vapor
SB:1 Duress
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Deathmark

Infernal was Eye. I was just trying something new, I saw it in someones list and thought I'd give it a go.

[DuxDucis]

Did you move Xantid Swarm from the main deck?

[Bryant Cook]

Yes.

[Bryant Cook]

Sorry to double post but...

How do you guys feel about Sadistic Sacrament as a one of Burning Wish target? What is it generally used against? I'm considering it.

[nodahero]

I have used Burning Wish to some decent success against Saito style builds primarily although I have had moderate success with it against Reanimator by ripping out Ioona's and another random threat. It can also be used to rip out a Progenitus or Emrakul (if the shelldock deck catches on)

[Jim Higginbottom]

I've been running a sad sac in my NLS build as there are a few people playing saito's list in my meta. It's pretty good.

[Piceli89]

Is someone still playing this deck, other than BC?
I might restart to play it, just because I'm getting bored from ANT's exessively linear way of plays,and the occasional slowness of Doomsday.

Bryant, have you tested the matchup against NO Bant? How did it go? I feel the only way to win fastly, Etw, can be eaten very easily by a single RWM. Also, post board Spell Pierces and Gaddock are serious threats.

[Bryant Cook]

Is someone still playing this deck, other than BC?
I might restart to play it, just because I'm getting bored from ANT's exessively linear way of plays,and the occasional slowness of Doomsday.

Bryant, have you tested the matchup against NO Bant? How did it go? I feel the only way to win fastly, Etw, can be eaten very easily by a single RWM. Also, post board Spell Pierces and Gaddock are serious threats.

Yes. It ended up being 60-40 their favor with a tough list. Counterbalance maindeck and Teeg sideboard was too much for me post board. I could always deal with one but the other one got me. Game one's were much more favorable. The Empty the Warrens really stole the show whenever I played it seeing as they had no outs.

Right now I'm trying something new with my list, I'll let people know how it goes afterward. It's nothing revolutionary, just something I want to try.

[Bryant Cook]

Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17888-Storming-to-Fourth-Place-NLTES-at-Lotus-Event&p=462687&viewfull=1#post462687)

Current decklist on opening post.

[Ciberon]

Liking the new build. However, I'm having some trouble versus Merfolk. Could you tell what is your sideboard plan?

[Bryant Cook]

+2 pyroblast, -2 mystical.

[jin]

how are the two pyroblasts working for you bryant? it doesn't seem like you blasted too much from your tournament report except for the brainstorm.


another random question: Can someone please tell me how diminishing returns is good. It seems to screw me over more often then not. I think I've won 1 game out of 15 on the turn it resolves. Usually I just refill my opponent's hands. It does seem like an "oh shit button."

[Bryant Cook]

They've been fine. I guess you could replace thoughtseize of you wanted a third to board in. However, I'm fine with the two.

Bad beats dude. It's always been good for me. If you would like to cut it go ahead, but the card is very good. Better than recurring insight.

[Jim Higginbottom]

Diminishing Returns is significantly better if you haven't played your land for the turn and you have say 2 mana floating...it isn't very good if you're going all in tapped out into it.

[redferne]

Hai, I've been reading about T.E.S back in 2007, had a break from the game since than. Got hooked again few weeks ago, anyway sample hand:

On the play, G1:
Land, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, LED, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam.

I'd keep it - Land go, Brainstorm EOT (Land, Land, Duress) put Ad Nauseam and Land on top. Draw Land, play Land, Ritual, Tutor showing LED, B floating, LED, LED, tap Land for B, Tutor (for Ad Nauseam), saccing LEDs in response. Too bad if I see a FoW.

[Bryant Cook]

Hai, I've been reading about T.E.S back in 2007, had a break from the game since than. Got hooked again few weeks ago, anyway sample hand:

On the play, G1:
Land, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, LED, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam.

I'd keep it - Land go, Brainstorm EOT (Land, Land, Duress) put Ad Nauseam and Land on top. Draw Land, play Land, Ritual, Tutor showing LED, B floating, LED, LED, tap Land for B, Tutor (for Ad Nauseam), saccing LEDs in response. Too bad if I see a FoW.

I don't know what you're looking for here.

I also think you played it wrong. If you're playing versus islands. I say keep the lands and draw through the brainstorm. Duress, Pass. On the endstep that you have 3 lands. Ritual, Nauseam. If they counter. Untap, and try to win with your 2x Infernals and Led.

[jin]

They've been fine. I guess you could replace thoughtseize of you wanted a third to board in. However, I'm fine with the two.

Bad beats dude. It's always been good for me. If you would like to cut it go ahead, but the card is very good. Better than recurring insight.

hmm.. maybe I'm playing it aroung. I usually made my land drop already or I don't have mana floating.. but when would I choose to go diminishing returns over ad nauseum/empty the warren? I feel that I'd usually go ad nauseum if I have enough mana, and empty the warren if I don't have enough storm.. so I don't really feel that diminishing returns is necessary. Sometimes I don't even get a tutor; it'd be all safety or all mana.. or mystical tutor without cantrips. doesn't that get annoying?

[Bryant Cook]

What do we play now that Mystical Tutor is banned? Do we wait for the new Serum Visions?

U
Sorcery
Scry 2
Draw a card

[Aggro_zombies]

What do we play now that Mystical Tutor is banned? Do we wait for the new Serum Visions?

U
Sorcery
Scry 2
Draw a card
You don't do anything, because you side out Mystical Tutor in all of your matchups anyway, amirite?!

[Bryant Cook]

You don't do anything, because you side out Mystical Tutor in all of your matchups anyway, amirite?!

URITE!

I have a couple options...

1.) Make them cantrips (Serum Visions, M11 better visions, Slight of Hand [I already have jap foils!]).
2.) Move the sideboard Infernal Tutor maindeck, add in the 4th Chant effect).
3.) Make them proection spells (Thoughtsieze/Chant).
4.) Cry and scream that the sky is falling.

[MrSoze]

Do you want to move the 4th tutor back? It seems like it has more value as a wish target for storm chains. I'd go with 1 or 3. And I'm definitely going with 4.

[oxeimon]

I've always been curious.

What's the reasoning behind not running doomsday?

[Ozymandias]

Without Tops, a lot of the good piles are unavailable.

[Gocho]

URITE!

I have a couple options...

1.) Make them cantrips (Serum Visions, M11 better visions, Slight of Hand [I already have jap foils!]).
2.) Move the sideboard Infernal Tutor maindeck, add in the 4th Chant effect).
3.) Make them proection spells (Thoughtsieze/Chant).
4.) Cry and scream that the sky is falling.

Today, I choose the option 4)

Tomorrow, I'll try to up the chant effects and Lim-Dul's Vaults

[Piceli89]

URITE!

I have a couple options...

1.) Make them cantrips (Serum Visions, M11 better visions, Slight of Hand [I already have jap foils!]).
2.) Move the sideboard Infernal Tutor maindeck, add in the 4th Chant effect).
3.) Make them proection spells (Thoughtsieze/Chant).
4.) Cry and scream that the sky is falling.

The sky is not falling, but this is just bad. Don't deny all the times you did Mystical and killed with Ad Nauseam the turn after.

1) We could go up to 9 cantrip, playing the neew Serum Visions, which comboes well with Brainstorm into forming a pseudo shuffle effects (something Mystical tutor used to provide on itself).
2) The sideboard Infernal tutor is very valuable, and this deck already plays an overkill of 2cc tutors. No.
3) I think we could add another Protection, in the form of Thoughtseize.

Lim Dul's vault is just bad, because this deck is really land-low, and it eats daze and cursecatcher better than anything else. I think there's no card disadvantage tool that's worth of being played, if it is (was) not Mystical.
Ah, Chrome Mox, ok.

[LostButSeeking]

How about Personal tutor? Okay, we lose a BUNCH of things, most that you:

Can't go for dark ritual
Can't go for silence
Can't go for Ad Nauseum (Ouch).

BUT

You can go for Infernal Tutor, Bwish, IGG (or ETW) or duress (if you need protection).

What irks me about personal tutor is that it's sorcery speed. The other guy knows what you're getting and has an untap step to decide how best to mess with you. Obviously it's not a perfect replacement, but I think it deserves consideration.

[Bryant Cook]

The sky is not falling, but this is just bad. Don't deny all the times you did Mystical and killed with Ad Nauseam the turn after.

1) We could go up to 9 cantrip, playing the neew Serum Visions, which comboes well with Brainstorm into forming a pseudo shuffle effects (something Mystical tutor used to provide on itself).
2) The sideboard Infernal tutor is very valuable, and this deck already plays an overkill of 2cc tutors. No.
3) I think we could add another Protection, in the form of Thoughtseize.

Lim Dul's vault is just bad, because this deck is really land-low, and it eats daze and cursecatcher better than anything else. I think there's no card disadvantage tool that's worth of being played, if it is (was) not Mystical.
Ah, Chrome Mox, ok.

I have won because games because of Mystical but it's my most boarded out card. I don't think I'll miss it that much.

As of right now it's looking like I'm going to be adding in more protection. Although, I'm unsure if this is the right move. I'll have to test some things out and see how they go.

[Bahamuth]

You could try adding a single Cabal Ritual (not that you can tutor for it now...). Is 13 land the right amount? I remember it was less back when I played this deck. I also remember we cut the 4th Mox at that point. Amazing it's still in your list.

[Bryant Cook]

You could try adding a single Cabal Ritual (not that you can tutor for it now...). Is 13 land the right amount? I remember it was less back when I played this deck. I also remember we cut the 4th Mox at that point. Amazing it's still in your list.

I'm a fan of four mox. I feel it's nessesary if you like winning at a lower life total with Ad Nauseam. I recently went up to 13 lands when I cut Simian Spirit Guide.

I've never really been a big fan of Cabal Ritual.

[Bahamuth]

I'm a fan of four mox. I feel it's nessesary if you like winning at a lower life total with Ad Nauseam. I recently went up to 13 lands when I cut Simian Spirit Guide.

I've never really been a big fan of Cabal Ritual.

Do you think you could go up to 14 land? Could you go up to more fetch and no City's?

I've always hated Chrome Mox because it's the worst card ever to show up twice in your hand. Now TES probably has a much better place for Mox than ANT and NLS and whatever other DD variant. I'm not too convinced you really need the 4th Mox to have good Ad Nauseams. I'd imagine resolving AdN in TES is pretty similar to resolving it in NLS, mostly because of the coloured mana you need to win. I played 2 Cabal Ritual, but no Rites in NLS, and AdN was just fine there. The difference is that we don't have Top + Mystical to win here, and we've got a couple more 2CC Tutors which you don't really want to reveal more than one of. I'll be testing my first list with 3 Mox. If it doesn't appear to be as terrible as I think, I might add a 4th.

I'm suggesting the Cabal Rit more as just another ritual to add now that Mystical is gone. I can see it's bad here, as you won't really get to 3 land in this deck ever.

[Muradin]

So I've already tried to build a build of storm combo without Mystical Tutor. This is what I came up with:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond

4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens

SB:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Grapeshot
1 Deathmark
4 Dark Confidant
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Sadistic Sacrament

So far it has been working consistent and quite powerful. It doesn't contain Ad Nauseam and thus no Chrome Moxen because I think they suck without Ad Nauseam but besides the deck works quite well. I only fear it is more or less like storm combo before Ad Nauseam got printed, only slightly worse.

[oxeimon]

Without Tops, a lot of the good piles are unavailable.

so why not run tops instead of some of the ponders?

Yes, it sucks to tap gemstone to spin the top, but then can't we just replace them with fetches and maybe drop green? How important is a single krosan grip in the sb now that we don't even have mysticals?

[Bryant Cook]

These are some of the worst suggestions I've seen.

[Jim Higginbottom]

I guess they banned mystical tutor because of reanimator but it really shouldn't effect us very much. I think this hurts ANT and NLS though.

[lebarion]

I have won because games because of Mystical but it's my most boarded out card. I don't think I'll miss it that much.

As of right now it's looking like I'm going to be adding in more protection. Although, I'm unsure if this is the right move. I'll have to test some things out and see how they go.

What do you think about trying Chain of Vapor again?
I've always enjoyed using it to generate storm.

[oxeimon]

These are some of the worst suggestions I've seen.

hey, I'm not trying to sound arrogant or anything. My questions are completely sincere and I'd really like to know your input on this -

Is the -2 Mystical, +2 protection/cantrips edit really enough to keep this TES list "optimal" ?
Are you going to keep singleton krosan grip on the SB as the only green card in the deck?
If so, I guess I don't see how that's effective since half the time against cb you're going to be hellbent-tutoring for it with zero cards in hand.

[LostButSeeking]

TES is solidly four colors; it's what defines TES as different from other ad nauseum storm decks. Cutting down to three colors is an option, but then you have to decide whether you want red (for burning wish and red +mana) or white (for silence effects); no one here really wants to do that, which is why we play TES rather than ANT or something else.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Regarding the current predicament, this isn't that bad. It is a BIG hit, but not near fatal. TES is the most viable storm deck (next to Rev614) after MT gets the axe. I was going to write a tournament report about my top 8 with a TES/ANT list that I was playing but it seems worthless now. Either way though, here is the list I ran and really enjoyed it:

4x Mystical Fucking Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Duress
4x Rite of Flame
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
3x Chrome Mox
3x Burning wish
3x Ponder
2x Infernal tutor
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Thoughtseize
1x Tendrils
1x IGG
1x AdN
4x Delta
2x Strand
2x Mire
2x Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Badlands
1x Island

SB
2x Grip
2x Swarm
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Bayou
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancient Grudge

Wish Targets
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x IGG
1x Sad Sac
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Eye of Nowhere

For whats its worth this list was cool as hell. Were it not for the loss of MT I could certainly have tweaked this to be much better. I would certainly go -1 Rite of Flame and +1 Bayou as well as -2 Thoughtseize -1 Duress and +3 Swarm to the main. Forgot how much better Swarm was in this deck. I will most likely be playing it for my final tournament with Mysticals legal since they are gone July 1. The list was consistent as hell all day and brutally fast. I only wish I had arrived at this kind of strange hybrid before the loss of MT, I think I finally found a good balance of speed and consistency!

TES will absolutely survive the hit of losing MT. And since Reanimator is even more influenced by this loss, it looks like it will go back to the original combo versus CB where solid luck determines the matchups, truly despicable. But in the end its whatever I guess.

[Vacrix]

Regarding the current predicament, this isn't that bad. It is a BIG hit, but not near fatal. TES is the most viable storm deck (next to Rev614) after MT gets the axe.
Since AdN was printed storm combo made up a fairly decent size of the meta. Now that ANT is expected to fall out of favor as a viable deck, players fearing the combo matchup will likely pack less combo hate because they expect to see significantly less combo. I'd say this situation is better than 'not bad'. Its great. Now you don't have 'good' decks relying on Mystical Tutor as a crutch while decks like TES can still function without it. However, I wouldn't pass judgement on whats viable so quickly. We should wait to see how the meta shifts. Imagine that TES does become the best choice. If that is the case, then you will see more people packing hate specifically for TES that may not work against other storm combo (Gaddock Teeg is perfect example, being great against TES but worthless against Solidarity). Besides, viability is in context. There are certainly situations in which other storm combo is a better choice than TES.

Anyway, what changes would you make to that list now that MT is gone? I agree with you on +3 Swarm to the main but then how would you alter the board (since your board has x2 Swarm ATM)?

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Vacrix: Since you would have to cut the 4x MT I would need to test suitable replacements, but most likely, leaving the list as it is now and taking the 4x MT away, I would probably go: +1 Bayou, +1 Ponder, +1 Burning Wish/IT, +1 Top/Personal Tutor. It would need testing but in the end it would probably look something like that.

SB would depend on the Burning Wish count, but would most likely look something like:

3x Grip
1x Swarm
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancient Grudge

Wish Targets
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x IGG
1x Duress
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Eye of Nowhere
1x Shattering Spree

[Piceli89]

@ Bryant:
I've taken your last maindeck, shaved it a it off some things, and tweaked onn my style. The 2 Mysticals were replaced by 2 Thoughtseizes, and the 4th Chrome Mox is now a Preordain.

I've goldfished it and I absolutely loved it. It kills on turn 3 regularly with double protection, can play both the aggressive role by comboing off very quickly AND waiting to chant, plus 13 lands now makes it a bit sturdier. You may think that 9 protection slots are too much, but this deck often has a very explosive hand and craves for a protection in the first turns. Plus, since we don't have Mystical anymore, this increases the % of seeing one in the opening hand to, like, always.
Empty the Warrens is absolutely nice, and its power has increased especially now with 2 new duress effects that may take Rhox War Monk, too.
Preordain is interesting too, I'd suggest to add 1 or 2 because they're really useful in throwing off the chaff, and differently from Ponder they can net you one of the top 2 cards and get rid of the other. Which is something that here, in this deck, you do few times because of the low number of fetchlands.

4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
2 [AN] City of Brass
1 [R] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [US] Duress
1 [M10] Silence
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [ARE] Serum Visions-->Preordain.
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree---> really still worth it with 2 Underground Seas?
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark

SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip

The sideboard is still unoptimized, but i really think I should increase the hatebear removals, beccause it's always nice to see them really quickly with nine 3-per-1 cantrips, and often thy're the only reason why bad hands are kept by some players.

I'm really tempted to start back again from TES now that I have to find something for Storm Combo, but I'm really undecided whether this is better than Fetchland Tendrils with 4 Doomsday maindeck and Emrakul in side for CB matchup.
I know this it's 100 faster and all, but I have the suspect recent unbannings will make artifact decks pour up from everywhere, with the relatives %s of t1 Trinisphere inreased now that Monolith is unbanned. Also, losing to Crucible+Wasteland remains a shame, and the tempo matchup is still so and so, especially now that they have Spell Pierce. I'd try to fit more Echoing truths in here for that, since it's arguably the bounce spells that may hit the most wide range of problematic permanents, from CotV to trinisphere, to Gaddock and Canonist.
Speed or consistency?

[Aleksandr]

Picelli, maybe use Hurkyl's recall than the second Spree. No matter what, I gonna goldfish this list.

[ZZZ]

@Picelli: I also started from Bryant's last list and decided to try out the added cantrip route (I've went -2 MT, -1 Mox; +2 Preordain, +1 Chain of Vapor) while it's been good in the limited amount of testing I've done so far; I really like the look of the 9 protection spells in your list and I'm gonna give it a try.

A couple of questions though: do you think 1 Grip (and 1 Wipe Away) in the side will be enough (I understand you also have discard and 2 Pyroblast that can deal with Counterbalance but obviously those are often answered quite easily (Brainstorm and counters) )? Why no EtW as a wish target? And is Thoughtseize still needed as a wish target now that you 9 pieces of protection MD?

I've also considered adding 1 or 2 Cabal Ritual but so far I haven't had any issues with getting mana so as long as that's not an issue, I think those slots can be put to better use.

Thanks

[CephalidBreakfast]

Relative newbie to this version of Tendrils. I've played ANT for a long time, but recent developments demand that I find a new outlet for my storming needs. A few questions:

Is Diminishing Returns actually good? There has not been a single point where I've wanted to wish for it, although I'm willing to admit that this may be due to inexperience with the deck. The list I'm using after a few days of testing is kind of a mix between Bryant's and Tommy Kolowith's from GP Chicago. I noticed that Tommy does not run Returns, and atm, I have removed it from my board as well.

Does this deck not want a couple more rituals? Again, I've only been testing since the banning, but adding two Cabal Ritual past the typical 8 rituals has really improved my consistency.

Is Burning Wish more often used as a set up spell or as a tutor while going off? How often should I be wishing for Infernal Tutor the turn before I go off? Often I find I will be one mana short of wishing for it on my combo turn.

Why Shattering Spree over Meltdown in the SB? Just as a measure against counters? RR can be a challenge without a ritual sometimes, let alone RRR.

[Bryant Cook]

I had a longer post typed then decided to be a moron and switch pages.

You said it yourself, Returns is there for when you're short mana to win with Wish -> Tutor -> Nauseam.

I tried a list like Piceli with two thoughtsieze. I didn't dislike it, but against non-blue the deck always had too many protection spells. Every match-up won't be against blue guys. I feel like going up to 9 protection spells is kind of a lot. I also feel like you guys are making a mistake cutting Mox number four. Against real opponents you'll have to win in sticky situations at low life totals. I wish all of my opponents were like magic workstation kids, but unfortunately, they're not.

[Piceli89]

I had a longer post typed then decided to be a moron and switch pages.

You said it yourself, Returns is there for when you're short mana to win with Wish -> Tutor -> Nauseam.

I tried a list like Piceli with two thoughtsieze. I didn't dislike it, but against non-blue the deck always had too many protection spells. Every match-up won't be against blue guys. I feel like going up to 9 protection spells is kind of a lot. I also feel like you guys are making a mistake cutting Mox number four. Against real opponents you'll have to win in sticky situations at low life totals. I wish all of my opponents were like magic workstation kids, but unfortunately, they're not.

I also wished Chrome Moxes would not be card disadvantage and terrible topdeck cards, but unfortunately, they are. I also too a second lock to your last tourney report, and was impressed by how often you mulled. Is it me, or your list gives some problems in terms of inital hands' consistency?
9 protection spells are too much, you're right. 8 is acceptable, though. The point is that I can't really find what to fit in the 60th slot. I'd try to stick with 10 cantrips (perhaps you'd go for 9 and play the 4th Mox), but I don't want to open with 3-cantrips hand where all I can do is optmizing in the first 2 turns, exausting my Gemstones or doing pretty nothing. This deck is designed to win fast opening hands that start from a good scultping point (at least, an acceleration, a tutor, a protection), or to lose pretty fast with little weakenings. So, basically, I feel the 60th slot can be filled with whatever suits you best.

I have the feeling that even this deck suffers a little from Mystical's departure, let's not be hypocrites. It's just not the same thing anymore to have a cantrip or a protection instead of that "Eot-->U: take the missing piece you desire".

[lolosoon]

So, now that MT is gone, we have 3-4 slots available or aguable (2MT, 1 Mox, 1 MD bounce) which can be filled with additional cantrips, gas, or protection.

7-8 MD protections were a standard call, but if the metagame shift to aggro and board control, it looks like those 7 would be enough, huh ?

So Cantrips and Gas might be better options.


I'd try to stick with 10 cantrips (perhaps you'd go for 9 and play the 4th Mox), but I don't want to open with 3-cantrips hand where all I can do is optmizing in the first 2 turns, exausting my Gemstones or doing pretty nothing. This deck is designed to win fast opening hands that start from a good scultping point
As a former (and average) ANT Player I'd say that 10 Cantrips are a lot in TES (DDFT or NLS is another matter).

I'm currently testing 8 (4 BS, 2 Ponder, 2 Preordain) and, still, they often clog my starting hands, slowing me down 1-2 turns (and chaining cantrips is really annoying).

But, to compensate, I've put back the 2 SSG in Bryant Cook's ol'TES list (along with CoV) trying to gain some speed and IMS.

I have to playtest with my Legacy circle (MWS kids are so annoying), but my current goldfishes look good (i'm trying to combo of T1 or T2/3 with at least 1 protection spell, or T4/5 with 2 protect and low life setting). Still, I often go for a fast ETW kill than a lethal Tendrils cause I've had hard times upping my storm count w/o using wished IGG nor D.Returns with this build.

For this last point, not sure it comes from the build iself, or the player I am though...

[Piceli89]

I'd like to discuss a bit about how to sideboard. Tha departure of Mystical tutor now makes it impossible to run Silver bullets, so we have to build a way more "squared" sideboard that allows us to run cards useful in several matchups. The other problem is that we should be able, against every MU, to bring in 2-3 cards AND leave a Wish target in the sb, and this is very difficult for a sideboard that's filled for roughly a half with wish targets.
This is what I'm trying now. My main purpose is to find a sideboarding plan that may give us a decent mu against Bant Countertop, which is easily an autopilot deck with many goodies (post side they have Fow, Pierce, Daze, Gaddock, and CB) that's extremely popular in my area.

----------
1 Infernal tutor
1 ToA
1 Etw
1 IGG

These are the storm engines, wishable. No balance of power because I don't want to fill the sb with situational engines. No more diminishing returns because i play 3 mox and more lands, I love storm combo to be more solid even if it's TES. No grapeshot because it has become Pyroclasm.

1 Pyroclasm-->God against bant and non-Zoo aggro. Wrathing all the guys giving exalted shit is awesome, as well as killing a Mage and a Teeg in one shot. IMO, way >> than Grapeshot now.
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spree/Meltdown

These are the utilities slots.

Now, how to fill the rest, keeping in consideration that, obviously, CB needs a lot of hate, and what I've written above?

1 Echoing truth-->multipurpose: stax, permanent hate, aggro.
1 Slaughter pact-->Zoo, aggro. Bant?
3 Pyroblast-->Merfolk, Tempo thresh, CB (still, everyone of us knows pyroblast is shitty against an already resolved Cb).
1 Krosan Grip (artifacts, CB).
1 Wipe Away (multi-purpose generic bouncer, Bant usually).

Other options: Carpet of Flowers (Tempo, to avoid our shitty manabase being raped), Chain of Vapor.
----

Some ideas about siding:

-Bant, Pro bant, Supreme noob, Mystic shit and such: -1 Etw (EE coming post side), -1 Mox, -1/2 cabal rituals, -1 protection, +2/3 pyroblasts, +1 slaughter pact (or deathmark?), +1 wipe away, +1 Kgrip.
-Merfolk: -2 cabal rituals, -1 mox, +3 pyros.
-Artifact: -3 chants, +1 echoing truth, +1 wipe away, +1 grip.
-Zoo: -3 chants (or duress?), +1 slaughter pact, +1 pyroclasm (deathmark is cheaper as a wish target to be cast), +1 etruth.
-Reanimator: i don't know. I've got only Echoing truth for Iona in here as a relevant card.
-Tempo Threshold: -2 Cabal rituals, -1 Burning Wish (Snare), +3 pyros (not sure though, they're costy to be cast on the combo turn).
-Mirror: -1 dontknowwhat, +1 Thoughtseize.
-Dredge: -2 duress, +1 echoing truth, +1 else (Pyroblast?)

Anyone has different ideas about this? Keep in mind I'm currently testing with 14 lands, so it may turn out to be slightly different. One thing I don't want to do, though, is siding out cantrips to make solutions come in post sideboard. Cantrips are really useful, especially now that you have to dig for your solution.

[Nidd]

You definitely want 1 Eye of Nowhere in your Wishboard. Wishable Bounce is good I hear.

[JeroenC]

I had it in my board for ages and never had a chance to wish for it where I wanted to and where I could, both at the same time. So I guess you've had more luck with it. Since it's gone, I try to pay attention to when I might use it but those times remain limited. I personally don't think it's worth the slot.

[magicplaya10]

Ok guys, I am starting to become a fan of this deck. Right now I currently play Belcher, and while it is fun, loses to FoW really hard. I have proxied this deck up and am testing, but I am having some trouble going off. I do play TPS is vintage, so I figured it would be easy to pick this deck up, but it isn't. I would goldfish turn 3 or 4 most of the time...could someone enlighten me a bit on whats going on?

I would keep hands, which seem great, but I end up fizzling. Maybe I am tutoring for the wrong card or something. I know that the deck is difficult to play, but Ill keep at it.

Thanks!

[Bryant Cook]

I'd like to discuss a bit about how to sideboard. Tha departure of Mystical tutor now makes it impossible to run Silver bullets, so we have to build a way more "squared" sideboard that allows us to run cards useful in several matchups. The other problem is that we should be able, against every MU, to bring in 2-3 cards AND leave a Wish target in the sb, and this is very difficult for a sideboard that's filled for roughly a half with wish targets.
This is what I'm trying now. My main purpose is to find a sideboarding plan that may give us a decent mu against Bant Countertop, which is easily an autopilot deck with many goodies (post side they have Fow, Pierce, Daze, Gaddock, and CB) that's extremely popular in my area.

----------
1 Infernal tutor
1 ToA
1 Etw
1 IGG

These are the storm engines, wishable. No balance of power because I don't want to fill the sb with situational engines. No more diminishing returns because i play 3 mox and more lands, I love storm combo to be more solid even if it's TES.
I don't really agree with cutting Returns, but if you feel it's nessesary go for it. I'm keeping it because I'm moving my sideboard Infernal to the maindeck after the change date. I'd rather have a more effective maindeck than sideboard. You'll get more use out of the tutor being maindeck than you will if it were in the sideboard.


No grapeshot because it has become Pyroclasm.

1 Pyroclasm-->God against bant and non-Zoo aggro. Wrathing all the guys giving exalted shit is awesome, as well as killing a Mage and a Teeg in one shot. IMO, way >> than Grapeshot now. Why on earth do people do this? I still don't understand it. Why would you ever wish for Clasm against "Non-Zoo" aggro when you could just get a card that helps you win? Grapeshot is a multipurpose card. I use it to win all the time, even when I'm not show boating. It's pretty easy to go storm 5 Burning Wish, Grapeshot for 6, then Tendrils for 14. When you have a weak hand. It's also great if you somehow manage to not get there with Tendrils and/or Empty the Warrens and have them at a low lifetotal.



1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spree/Meltdown

These are the utilities slots.

Now, how to fill the rest, keeping in consideration that, obviously, CB needs a lot of hate, and what I've written above?

1 Echoing truth-->multipurpose: stax, permanent hate, aggro.
1 Slaughter pact-->Zoo, aggro. Bant?
3 Pyroblast-->Merfolk, Tempo thresh, CB (still, everyone of us knows pyroblast is shitty against an already resolved Cb).
1 Krosan Grip (artifacts, CB).
1 Wipe Away (multi-purpose generic bouncer, Bant usually).

Other options: Carpet of Flowers (Tempo, to avoid our shitty manabase being raped), Chain of Vapor.

Slaughter Pact, really? You say you want to build a more "Square" sideboard then put a card like this in here. It's better off being Chain of Vapor or Deathmark. Two deathmark would be better, that way if you ever needed to Wish twice it's there. Although, I still think the slot should be Chain. I'm also against only one artifact destruction spell. I too want to up Pyroblast to three.

[Piceli89]

-With Pyroclasm I wanted to point out that resetting Noble Hierarchs, Pridemage and multiple weenies that may cause troule is great against Bant, which wins in this way, super-exalting their guys and giving you a very narrow clock as well as strong disruption elements. Heck, they often keep 1 lander with double Hierarch. I guess Grapeshot is far weaker in this matchup. Grapeshot is a nice kill and all, and what you say about the chain with Tendrils is surely true, but how many times did you manage to pull that trick out? i mean, you need 8 mana, plus a Burning Wish resolving, and some other spells. If you can attest that it happens lots of time, and point me out the situations where you are more liely to pull this trick off (against non-Tempo decks, i guess), I can give it a try. Pyroclasm still remains strong, though.

-I could also pack the second Deathmark, but it takes 1 mana more and is usually played in the combo turn after having resolved a chant, against Gaddock Teeg. You really want teeg to stick to let your chant resolve. So I guess 1 mana less is pretty good.
Though, I can see the point of being Chain of Vapor, since I was lacking decent cards to put it into other matchups. But if Pact would become CoV, how would you get rid of Gaddock or the various hatebears against UGw countertop? siding in a single Deathmark and leaving Grapeshot as a wishable kill? Too slow, Imo.

-For the double artifact-hate spell, I can see double Shattering Spree, but really, is it still as effective as it used to be? You have lowered the number of lands producing R from 8 to 6, and only 1 of your 3 duals produce R. Im testing a Tundra maindeck (know it may turn out to be shitty, but it's nice to have another permanent land), and for me it's even worse. Too much time I just start with Underground Seas to make it enough effective, and since they're likely to wasteland you and keep you Rite of Flames off via Chalice; I see it very underpowered as of now in these TES builds which tend towards ANTish manabases.

-As for the Infernal maindeck, I still think it's one of the most worth BWish targets. Also, with 8 tutors maindeck i often opened clogged hands with 2 or 3 of them, and you easily realize it's not that fast to cast double Burning Wish tapping you out, since it's slow against aggro. Think of a hand like this:
Duress, Wish x2, Infernal, Brainstorm, Land, Silence.

The general point I've lately noticed is: what to take with burning Wish? It will be me, but sometimes there is not what I'm looking to go off in the sideboard. Tendrils usually comes at the end of the chain, Igg is usually not taken against blue, Thoughtseize is cute against blue, EtW is jut for turn 1-2 explosions. I wished so bad there was a mana acceleration in the sideboard, because that's what is often missing in my hand. A strong piece of acceleration.
At least wished IT is the shortcut for Ad Nauseam, which remains the best storm engine avaiable that wins alone.

[Bryant Cook]

-With Pyroclasm I wanted to point out that resetting Noble Hierarchs, Pridemage and multiple weenies that may cause troule is great against Bant, which wins in this way, super-exalting their guys and giving you a very narrow clock as well as strong disruption elements. Heck, they often keep 1 lander with double Hierarch. I guess Grapeshot is far weaker in this matchup. Grapeshot is a nice kill and all, and what you say about the chain with Tendrils is surely true, but how many times did you manage to pull that trick out? i mean, you need 8 mana, plus a Burning Wish resolving, and some other spells. If you can attest that it happens lots of time, and point me out the situations where you are more liely to pull this trick off (against non-Tempo decks, i guess), I can give it a try. Pyroclasm still remains strong, though. You shouldn't be boarding in Clasm anyway and you should certainly not be wishing for Clasm. You're playing the deck wrong. Your goal 100% of the time is trying to win the game. Killing a Hierarch doesn't help this. If you want an example of Grapeshot being better, my last report, round one versus U/w Scepter.


-I could also pack the second Deathmark, but it takes 1 mana more and is usually played in the combo turn after having resolved a chant, against Gaddock Teeg. You really want teeg to stick to let your chant resolve. So I guess 1 mana less is pretty good.
Though, I can see the point of being Chain of Vapor, since I was lacking decent cards to put it into other matchups. But if Pact would become CoV, how would you get rid of Gaddock or the various hatebears against UGw countertop? siding in a single Deathmark and leaving Grapeshot as a wishable kill? Too slow, Imo. You're boarding in Wipeaway/Grip, possibly Echoing Truth, if you know they have Teeg you'll board in Chain of Vapor and Deathmark. Leaving Grapeshot in the sideboard. If you know they have Cannonist you'll bring in one of the two Shattering Spree. If you see hatebears game two bring in the last options game three.


-For the double artifact-hate spell, I can see double Shattering Spree, but really, is it still as effective as it used to be? You have lowered the number of lands producing R from 8 to 6, and only 1 of your 3 duals produce R. Im testing a Tundra maindeck (know it may turn out to be shitty, but it's nice to have another permanent land), and for me it's even worse. Too much time I just start with Underground Seas to make it enough effective, and since they're likely to wasteland you and keep you Rite of Flames off via Chalice; I see it very underpowered as of now in these TES builds which tend towards ANTish manabases. I haven't had a problem yet. R to destroy a 2cc artifact is much better than 2R which happebed in the top 4 of my last report when I won through Nullrod.


-As for the Infernal maindeck, I still think it's one of the most worth BWish targets. Also, with 8 tutors maindeck i often opened clogged hands with 2 or 3 of them, and you easily realize it's not that fast to cast double Burning Wish tapping you out, since it's slow against aggro. Think of a hand like this:
Duress, Wish x2, Infernal, Brainstorm, Land, Silence.

The general point I've lately noticed is: what to take with burning Wish? It will be me, but sometimes there is not what I'm looking to go off in the sideboard. Tendrils usually comes at the end of the chain, Igg is usually not taken against blue, Thoughtseize is cute against blue, EtW is jut for turn 1-2 explosions. I wished so bad there was a mana acceleration in the sideboard, because that's what is often missing in my hand. A strong piece of acceleration.
At least wished IT is the shortcut for Ad Nauseam, which remains the best storm engine avaiable that wins alone.
Don't get me wrong it's a great wish target, however, I'd rather have a stronger maindeck. I'll board out the fourth Infernal tutor all the time, making it a wish target games two and three. However, game one you want the strongest deck possible.

[ottozoell]

@Piceli89
I am pretty sure there isn't a ritual effect that will net you mana once the 1R for Burning Wish is factored in. The TEPS decks from a couple extended seasons ago ran Channel the Suns out of the board. But that isnt really relevant here. Those deck were able to make more mana (while not losing their hand to LED) and the 4RG to wish for and cast Channel was more common, also it was used as a fixer to get to Mind's Desire mana.

On the topic of wish boards I feel like the 4th Infernal Tutor is necessary in the board. I've had a ton of games where it was the only line of play that didn't make me cast Empty the Warrens, which I really wish I could cut from the deck entirely.

[Piceli89]

It's not that I chose Pyroclasm over Grapeshot because it kills Hierarch. It's because it kills the same thing Grapeshot do (hatebears), with the added bonus of getting rid of many other critters which basically undo the opponent's gameplan.
Also, if you wish for Grapeshot and cast it the turn after, you need to power it by playing other spells, othr way it will be 1 damage for 1R. Pyrolasm cast the turn after (to avoid , say, Spell Pierce) is a same 2 damages to everybody on the field.
----
I would not board Shattering Spree in against Bant ever, even if they play Canonist. Just because SS hits only that. I'd rather have way more than 2 between Wipe Away/Grip, because they're the only spells that can successfully get rid of Canonist, CB, and Gaddock; which are the prolems of that deck, along with counters. Chain of Vapor is useful to bounce Teeg one turn, but I'd still prefer to kill him via Deathmark in case things go wrong. Deathmark may also stop a RWM from killing us with super beats, and it's a removal spell that is useful even in the pre-combo turns, if you're suffering the the race they're making.
----
As for artifucks: you took an example where Shattering Spree is clearly > to Deathmark, which is with Null Rod which is being played in Legacy by 1 deck among 1000 as a tech sb card; and , as a general case, as a solution to an artifact with cmc >0.
I was referring to those matchups where they rain you with t1 Cotv @1, t2 Trinisphere, t3 Crucible on a regular basis, and maybe they also have got a wasteland to start things going on, because that's how those decks usually roll. Now, try to find in these cases RRR with 2 USeas. That's where you need an effective way to get rid of them, and the fact that you're not playing an entirely R manabase decreases the value of Shattering Spree. Even meltdown would be slow in these situations, though (1 mana more), but at least it would require only 1 red mana.
Well, against Dragon Stompy at least Spree is a bomb.

[DarthVicious]

I'm running a list with LED, Chrome Mox, Petals, and 3 Mox Diamonds. 16 land, 4 of them count as Mountains. Burning Wish -> Pulverize is nice vs. Chalice@0.

[Bryant Cook]

Time Reversal {3}uu
Sorcery Mythic Rare
Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. Exile Time Reversal.

[lolosoon]

Time Reversal {3}uu
Sorcery Mythic Rare
Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. Exile Time Reversal.
So, is it the reason why they ban Mystical Tutor and let Burning Wish in the Legacy format ?!? :D

Still, the +1 in the cc hurts in comparison to D.Returns. And the SB D.Returns slot is debatable...

Not impressed, not wanted (in TES though, SI//'Reversal Storm' is another thing), especially as a F***ing Mythic !

[Lord_Cyrus]

Interesting card... Pretty much a straight-up reprint of Timetwister with 1U tacked on. Almost strictly worse than Diminishing Returns in a Burning Wish deck though. I like that Wiz had the balls to print this - it shows the strength of Mythics. If you printed cards like this at Rare it would totally screw up the Limited pool. Probably won't reach a high $ value without some absurd shenanigans to abuse it with in Standard.

This might work in some sort of B/U SI shell... now that I think about it.

[jin]

@ Mystical Tutor slots

Has anyone considered putting in those old tutors that TES used to play like Spoils of the Vault or Plunge into Darkness. I guess the recent inclusion of Ad Nauseum ruins these tutors but it seems that Bryant has been winning more with goblins and grapeshot than with Ad Nauseum so...

Just a thought...

@ Bryant's comment about main-deck Infernal Tutor

I tried this and it seemed a lot slower. I think the extra infernal tutor become hard to get rid of when you have no LED. I find myself having to spend more time to set up because I have to get rid of the infernal tutors in my hand.

[Zhukai]

I took TES to a local tournament today after not playing it for a few months and played against Imperial Painter, ANT, and Solidarity. I was surprised how often manafixing was an issue when I run 4 city of brass+4 gemstone mine and found myself using Ad Nauseam instead of more reliable methods like IGG to win. Has anyone else run into mana issues or have any tips about how to rework the deck to make it less of a problem? I'm considering a 4th Chrome Mox and possibly another Volcanic Island to help.

[lolosoon]

manafixing was an issue when I run 4 city of brass+4 gemstone mine and found myself using Ad Nauseam instead of more reliable methods like IGG to win.
First, talking about your manabase without knowledge of the rest of the deck ain't easy...

Also, I don't see your point about manaFixing. You have trouble casting an IGG loop for BB2 (+B for the loop), but can use AdNauseam fo BB3 due to the Rainbow lands you're packing ?!

Moreover, the original explosive 4 Cities, 4 Gemstones (+a U.Paradise//Orchard split) manabase has evolve to the 8 rainbow lands + 2 U.Sea and 1 Volc.Island, then to a bigger land count of 4 Gemstone, 2-3Cities, 4 FecthLands, 2 Seas 1 Volc.

With the additional cantrips engine (especially with the loss of MT), the Blue Duals are now mandatory in TES. You wouldn't want depleting your Gemstones of its counters (or pinging yourself with city) for mere cantrips, then miss those ressources when you're going fot the big turn...

[Bryant Cook]

Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18079-Storming-to-Third-Place-NLTES-at-Eli-s-6-26-10&p=467575)

[Zhukai]

Sorry I should have provided a list. I'm still missing 2 LEDs and U. Seas so I replaced them with 2 Cabal Rituals and a swamp/island split (I also run into Dragon Stompy or Imperial Recruiter at every tournament so the Seas make me nervous).
Main:
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Island

4x Duress
2x Silence
1x Chain of Vapor
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Mystical Tutor
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
2x Lion's Eye Diamond (boo)
4x Rite of Flame
2x Cabal Ritual
4x Burning Wish
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
1xEmpty the Warrens
1x Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Grapeshot
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Wipe Away
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
2x Deathmark
2x Shattering Spree
1x Echoing Truth
1x Infernal Tutor
2x Red Elemental Blast

[dahcmai]

Hey Bryant, you ever think of trying out a singleton Doomsday? I keep watching this stupid Shelldock thing slip under CB and I just love that. It's hard to ignore and I play something similar to your deck with a Doomsday anyway since I like how it dives under hate easier sometimes.

[Bryant Cook]

Hey Bryant, you ever think of trying out a singleton Doomsday? I keep watching this stupid Shelldock thing slip under CB and I just love that. It's hard to ignore and I play something similar to your deck with a Doomsday anyway since I like how it dives under hate easier sometimes.

I just feel that the doomsday package requires too many cards.

You need tops, Shelldock Isle, Doomsday, Emrakul (Not a combo with Nauseam), and a draw 4.

[Piceli89]

Nice report. Even if your opponent in the feature match did not seem too confident with the deck, g1 was a goldfish for you and g2 he helped you putting the SDT on top to counter Rite of Flame, when perhaps the best thing to do was to let rite of flame risolve and then have access to both 0 (wasteland on top) and 1 (SDT) to counter your spells (you had like 4-5 cards in hand, so it was really probable that some of them were LEDs). But I can understand Pyroblast was unexpected.

Also, I wonder why reading your reports you don't ever draw a Rite of Flame or a Chrome Mox in the initial hand. Skill?
Joking. Have you thought about what to replace Mysticals? Infernal and Chant #4/Thoughtseize?

[thefreakaccident]

How is this deck even close to viable now that Mystical Tutor is gone?

Seriously guys, its not like the deck was even dominant when it had MT, now its not even worth playing even in the proper metagame.

Don't agree? Win some tournaments and prove me wrong (doubt it'll happen).

[dahcmai]

I play tops anyway since I like the occasional storm up with them. Ponder is what I am missing. That card just annoys me sometimes, though that shuffle can be nice. It's a trade off. Only reason I mentioned the Doomsday is I am close to being able to run it and I like how you can stack out hate with it.

[e_hawk77]

If you like the idea of the doomsday combo you could give some of Matt Nass' idea to thought. He put the doomsday combo in the board and sided it in vs counterbalance decks as it is good vs them and requires less cards. Also counterbalance deck usually can't support things like waste and stifle unless they are really greedy.

[JonBarber]

How is this deck even close to viable now that Mystical Tutor is gone?

Seriously guys, its not like the deck was even dominant when it had MT, now its not even worth playing even in the proper metagame.

Don't agree? Win some tournaments and prove me wrong (doubt it'll happen).

I'm reallyyy hoping this is some sarcasm.

If not, the deck only ran 2 mystical tutors and were often boarded out. Bryant cook placed 3rd in a 100 man event and 4th in a 70 man event in the last two weeks. If thats not results, than what is? Not to mention, the meta is turning very aggro heavy, so it is becoming the proper metagame. The reason it doesn't show up in more top 8's is because it requires more thinking than most decks, and a lot of players would rather just play zoo.

[claudio.r]

Hi everyone!

I'm thinking about getting TES done... i have a lot of the cards needed and some shop credit thanks to dredge and merfolks... i've always been a fan of storm combo, i played solidarity for a good amount of time, but now i want another challenge.

My questions are: can this deck perform playing with less than 4 LEDs ? the thing is, LED is quite expensive right now, and i can't afford the 4 of them right now; since i also have to shell out for burning wishes and chrome moxes.
Second, is there a good list you guys would recommend (no mystical tutor of course) ? And some tips on starting with the deck.

Thx in advance,
Cláudio

[JonBarber]

Hi everyone!

I'm thinking about getting TES done... i have a lot of the cards needed and some shop credit thanks to dredge and merfolks... i've always been a fan of storm combo, i played solidarity for a good amount of time, but now i want another challenge.

My questions are: can this deck perform playing with less than 4 LEDs ? the thing is, LED is quite expensive right now, and i can't afford the 4 of them right now; since i also have to shell out for burning wishes and chrome moxes.
Second, is there a good list you guys would recommend (no mystical tutor of course) ? And some tips on starting with the deck.

Thx in advance,
Cláudio

Read everyone of Bryant Cook's posts and lists. He's been playing the list more and longer than anyone else, and you'll get a good understanding of how the deck works and its history.

LED is pretty important for the deck, especially with Burning Wish. It becomes significantly worse without, but still playable.

[metalhead]

Well now that mystical is banned i believe this is the storm deck to play. But as someone had mentioned i think I'll test the sb play of doomsday into Emrakul. Because it rapes counterbalance "just don't do like i did Sunday at the 5k and miss stack your pile". also you don't really NEED the draw 4 as there are plenty of ponder/brainstorm piles that work well without it and you can easily slide 1-2 tops into the main just for these piles in i don't know maybe the 2 mystical tutor slots. With the addition of the duels you can use them to keep spinning tops without depleting your counters on mine or taking damage from CoB. they can also help brainstorm in keeping your tutors out of your hand while setting up. or with 2 even be used to generate storm. And seeing as alot of lists are already running grapeshot in the board. You can try the old Helm of Awakening pile to generate exactly infinate storm against decks that gain a lot of life or just ignore Teeg, and to a lesser extent cannonist and meddeling mage. This is just my 2 cents on the doomsday sideboard.

[thefreakaccident]

I'm reallyyy hoping this is some sarcasm.

If not, the deck only ran 2 mystical tutors and were often boarded out. Bryant cook placed 3rd in a 100 man event and 4th in a 70 man event in the last two weeks. If thats not results, than what is? Not to mention, the meta is turning very aggro heavy, so it is becoming the proper metagame. The reason it doesn't show up in more top 8's is because it requires more thinking than most decks, and a lot of players would rather just play zoo.


I was just wondering if anyone would ever respond to one of my posts.
Of coarse i know the deck never was dependant on mt, I just find it odd that this is what it takes for someone to reply to my posts.

Edit: FT always took much more thought to play, and so did solidarity, zoo and agro in general are for ppl who dont want to put thought into the game. It takes a true player to play tight with a control deck for an entire tournament.

Edit2: I would like to see if anyone else besides bryanT cook can do well with this deck, he seems to be the only person putting up numbers consistently.

[JonBarber]

I was just wondering if anyone would ever respond to one of my posts.
Of coarse i know the deck never was dependant on mt, I just find it odd that this is what it takes for someone to reply to my posts.

Edit: FT always took much more thought to play, and so did solidarity, zoo and agro in general are for ppl who dont want to put thought into the game. It takes a true player to play tight with a control deck for an entire tournament.

Edit2: I would like to see if anyone else besides bryanT cook can do well with this deck, he seems to be the only person putting up numbers consistently.

I was too busy putting up numbers with B/U ANT ;)

Seriously though, now that B/U ANT is dead, I think you'll see a lot more combo players playing TES, and therefore you'll see more numbers get posted.

[Bryant Cook]

I was just wondering if anyone would ever respond to one of my posts.
Of coarse i know the deck never was dependant on mt, I just find it odd that this is what it takes for someone to reply to my posts.

Edit: FT always took much more thought to play, and so did solidarity, zoo and agro in general are for ppl who dont want to put thought into the game. It takes a true player to play tight with a control deck for an entire tournament.

Edit2: I would like to see if anyone else besides bryanT cook can do well with this deck, he seems to be the only person putting up numbers consistently.

Where weren't people responding to your posts? That first beligerant post was the first one you've had. I think you just wanted to act like an ass.

I've been putting up numbers for the last 4 or so years. If anyone else besides me ever played the deck, maybe there would be more.


@ Everyone with Doomsday - Please stop. It's terrible.

It's not worth losing sideboard space, we don't play top, Emerakul and Ad Nauseam don't play nicely together. If you want a better counterbalance match-up play more Krosan Grips.

The lands in this deck aren't meant to be tapped for top. You don't want to be winning turns 4-5 and topping every turn.

[Dark Ritual]

I agree with you Bryant Cook the doomsday idea is terrible and is a waste of valuable SB space. And to improve the countertop MU, you should look into pyroblast/REB. Those seem amazing against the card as shown in your feature match Bryant you play rite of flame, they top in response, then in response to them drawing with top you blast away the CB. Problem solved. And besides, when the meta shift comes, countertop will see a lot less play than it does right now thanks to ANT/storm combo decks "dying".

Gemstone mine tapping to spin a top every turn seems awful. To me, I would max out on cantrips before playing top since they are a lot better than top at finding answers. When M11 comes out, there will be 3 of these such cards in ponder, brainstorm, and preordain. That is more than enough for that kind of effect.

I also agree on the fact that very few people play TES so of course it won't be putting up as much results as ANT did since TES is a lot harder to play than ANT was when mystical tutor was legal. Now with mystical gone, more people will start picking up the deck to try it out since a lot of the people who played ANT will be looking for another storm combo deck to play unless they opt for another archetype like control or aggro.

@thefreakaccident: When mystical tutor was legal, ANT was dominating since it was so much easier to play when compared to TES. And as Bryant and others have stated, mystical tutor was a 2 of and was often boarded out for other more useful cards.

[PunkRocker1134]

Is there any way to make this deck a little cheaper? I'd love to play it, but it is a tad on the expensive side.

[GreenOne]

Well, TES is not going to be the only storm deck in the format. Emidln posted a lovely doomsday list, and there is already people playing mor TES-esque ANT versions with burning wish.

This doesn't take into account the effect that the unbanning of Grim Monolith might have on Belcher, and the fact that some people might move on lists that were previously playing 0 MT, like SI and Belcher.
Also, Preordein (or however you wanna spell it) might be the reason to build new storm builds with more cantrips instead of more tutors (maybe 12 cantrips + 4 tops?!?).

I'm not saying that Belcher or SI are going to be real decks in July. I'm saying that, in the end, Storm will still be played in considerable numbers (yeah, a little less, but still a good number), and TES will be only one of the possible choices. The obvious consequences will be a little less hate (just a little), and a bit more results by TES (and other storm decks).


Is there any way to make this deck a little cheaper? I'd love to play it, but it is a tad on the expensive side.

You can play it without fetches and duals, playing 4x city, 4xgemstone, 3xundiscovered paradise.
You can play Thoughtseize or Silence (or even Pyroblast maindeck in some metas) instead of Chant.

You still have to buy LEDs and at least 2-3x chrome moxes.

[JonBarber]

Is there any way to make this deck a little cheaper? I'd love to play it, but it is a tad on the expensive side.

Welcome to legacy bud, its expensive. TES is one of the cheapest decks out there. There's always ways to make it cheaper, but it will no longer be competitive.

[ZZZ]

I've been putting up numbers for the last 4 or so years. If anyone else besides me ever played the deck, maybe there would be more.


I've played the deck in the past (although not nearly as much as you have as I switch between decks a lot) and I've never put up any results with it; although I'm sure that has everything to do with my poor combo piloting skills and nothing with the deck.:laugh:

Anyway what I wanted to ask: If the meta shifts as people are predicting at the moment (something I'm not entirely convinced of), i.e. more aggro and a rise of pure control (Landstill) and midrange (Rock) decks, is it still worth maindecking Empty the Warrens. Wouldn't that slot be better spend on Ill-Gotten Gains in such a meta?

[LostButSeeking]

I've been putting up numbers for the last 4 or so years. If anyone else besides me ever played the deck, maybe there would be more.



I also play TES. My list is a little old--I'm still playing 11 lands with mana monkeys, and I have two more rainbow lands instead of the U. Seas, because I don't have them--but I pulled second in a tournament last night with the list, beating Aggro Loam (maindeck chalice is a BITCH, though), Death and Taxes (ditto for Aura of Silence--Game three I fought through two canonists, but that second game aura of silence . . . ugh), Folk (why I still have Xantid swarm in my board--it's really good against them) and Dredge. Every match I played that evening went to three games (because I am a lousy, but improving, combo pilot) except for the final--folk with maindeck spell pierce and echoing truth.

But I wanted to discuss a situation with you guys, because, as I said, I'm a lousy pilot. This is game two against folk in the finals. He's metagamed to beat me, because we don't have any zoo or goblins to make him, you know, play cards that are bad against storm.

So, the situation. I’m at 7 life with four lands—all rainbow producers—on the table. I am facing lethal damage from two lords, a cursecatcher and a mutavault. I duressed him last turn, and I know his hand is daze and echoing truth. He forced my first turn Xantid swarm, so he has a force in his yard. He is at 18. In my hand is 2x Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, 2x burning wish and tendrils.

I couldn’t figure out a way out, even when he had no hard hate. I couldn’t IGG for more storm because he had force. I can’t burning wish for IT for ad nauseum because first I don’t have enough mana, (only 8 when I’d need 9) and second he’s hold curse catcher and daze, and third because I’m at seven. I couldn’t Empty the Warrens because he had echoing truth in his hand. I couldn’t double tendrils because I didn’t have enough mana (only eight, when I would have needed 10 to tendrils). The BEST I could come up with was play mana (storm three) BW (four) for Grapeshot (storm five, five damage to him) and then Tendrils (twelve more damage to him, although he could have countered one with the Cursecatcher) bringing him to one life .

Was there a way out? I doubt I could have taken the match, so it would only have been a moral victory . In addition to four force, daze and spell pierce, he also had four mindbreak trap boarded, because there isn’t enough zoo in our meta.

Okay, thirdly (sorry about the long post). I was thinking about a problem that was being discussed on the Storm Boards a few days ago. People wanted a sideboard solution that beat hatebears and Iona naming black in one, wishable card. The best card that was named was Eye of Nowhere, which I find . . . poor, because of the double blue cost. I was lamenting the fact that WOTC hadn’t printed unsummon at sorcery speed. It would be perfect! Then one of my friends mentioned the new card Oust (I missed the past two sets, for the most part). I looked it up. Oust reads:

Oust. W
Sorcery,
Put target creature into its owner's library second from the top. Its controller gains 3 life.

I’m not optimistic about this card, really. The bad part is how they gain life. But I thought it was worth at least a little discussion.

[GreenOne]

So, the situation. I’m at 7 life with four lands—all rainbow producers—on the table. I am facing lethal damage from two lords, a cursecatcher and a mutavault. I duressed him last turn, and I know his hand is daze and echoing truth. He forced my first turn Xantid swarm, so he has a force in his yard. He is at 18. In my hand is 2x Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, 2x burning wish and tendrils.

I couldn’t figure out a way out, even when he had no hard hate. I couldn’t IGG for more storm because he had force. I can’t burning wish for IT for ad nauseum because first I don’t have enough mana, (only 8 when I’d need 9) and second he’s hold curse catcher and daze, and third because I’m at seven. I couldn’t Empty the Warrens because he had echoing truth in his hand. I couldn’t double tendrils because I didn’t have enough mana (only eight, when I would have needed 10 to tendrils). The BEST I could come up with was play mana (storm three) BW (four) for Grapeshot (storm five, five damage to him) and then Tendrils (twelve more damage to him, although he could have countered one with the Cursecatcher) bringing him to one life .

Well, yeah, still, you're gaining 12 life in the process, so you can have another turn. If you topdeck LED (or ritual, in case he dazed+cursecatchered) you still win with the wish you have in hand.

Or you could have gone for Diminishing Returns hoping for the best.

[Bryant Cook]

Anyway what I wanted to ask: If the meta shifts as people are predicting at the moment (something I'm not entirely convinced of), i.e. more aggro and a rise of pure control (Landstill) and midrange (Rock) decks, is it still worth maindecking Empty the Warrens. Wouldn't that slot be better spend on Ill-Gotten Gains in such a meta?

Do you honestly believe Bant won't still be the best deck in the format? This is where Empty the Warrens shines. In fact, it shines versus anything with blue in it. Including Landstill.

Is anyone ever really happy to draw Ill-Gotten Gains? I played it for years and there were very few times I was excited to see it. I can't believe it took me so long to cut it.

[JeroenC]

I missed having it on several occasions at GP: Madrid, but I can't remember losing any games because of not having it. So MD Warrens is quite probably the way to go.

[ZZZ]

Do you honestly believe Bant won't still be the best deck in the format? This is where Empty the Warrens shines. In fact, it shines versus anything with blue in it. Including Landstill.

Is anyone ever really happy to draw Ill-Gotten Gains? I played it for years and there were very few times I was excited to see it. I can't believe it took me so long to cut it.

I think you're right, BANT in all its variations will still be very popular but there's a good chance a lot of those decks will be maindecking even more sweepers (Firespout and EE) than before, making EtW worse.
On the other hand, with MT banned, an early EtW might get even more important against CounterTop?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I was just wondering if anyone would ever respond to one of my posts.
Of coarse i know the deck never was dependant on mt, I just find it odd that this is what it takes for someone to reply to my posts.

Edit: FT always took much more thought to play, and so did solidarity, zoo and agro in general are for ppl who dont want to put thought into the game. It takes a true player to play tight with a control deck for an entire tournament.

Edit2: I would like to see if anyone else besides bryanT cook can do well with this deck, he seems to be the only person putting up numbers consistently.

LOL. I took this deck to my local tournament 7 times and made top 8 or top 4 split 5/7. However, my last lists ran 13 lands and 4 MT and then 15 lands w/ 4 MT, and I was just playing better combo decks IE: DD Hybrids and DDGO. The problem is this deck kind of sucks against Reanimator and is 50/50 in the CB matchup whereas DDGO just obliterates them.

@lostbutseeking: I would have Grapeshot his Lords for 5 (killing both) and Tendrils for 12, then next turn, depending on what u draw, BWish for DReturns and go for it next turn OR you can just BWish for IGG, assuming u draw LED and bring back Duress, DRit and Tendrils. I think the Grapeshot his dudes and Tendrils plan give you the best options since you have a BWish left over. You could also BW into Infernal and cast Infernal revealing Dark Ritual, play both and Tendrils leaving BW in you hand but ... its a bad play and it actually does not work if your opponent counters the first Dark Ritual ... which they probably would. But the best thing you have going for playing combo is that most people have not the slightest clue what these decks are capable of and often let mana spells resolve that they shouldn't because they are waiting to counter some key spell then you cast something they don't know how to react to like ... not Ad Nauseam.

Ironically if you had an LED that turn you would have won because IGG would have been the card to grab assuming he only had 1 Force in the yard. The Cursecatcher and Daze are able to make sure not enough copies would resolve since you just don't have enough mana.

[GreenOne]

I would have Grapeshot his Lords for 5 (killing both) and Tendrils for 12, then next turn, depending on what u draw, BWish for DReturns and go for it next turn OR you can just BWish for IGG, assuming u draw LED and bring back Duress, DRit and Tendrils. I think the Grapeshot his dudes and Tendrils plan give you the best options since you have a BWish left over.
He can generate only 8 mana (-2 for wish) so a single daze or cursecatcher on a grapeshot copy leaves both lords alive.

[Bryant Cook]

Pyretic Ritual 1r
Instant Common
Add RRR to your mana pool.

Strictly worse than desperate ritual...when will they learn to drop the 1?

[JeroenC]

I just really hate that card. I wish it would've been some kind of boosted Manamorphose without the cantrip, that would've been good. But I hardly believe this card is ever going to be played anywhere...

[JonBarber]

Pyretic Ritual 1r
Instant Common
Add RRR to your mana pool.

Strictly worse than desperate ritual...when will they learn to drop the 1?

<sarcasm> Its not at risk of arcane hate spells! Yayyy!</sarcasm>

Even if they won't make it a straight up dark ritual, at least make it rite of flamish

[Anusien]

I know it's sort of trendy to ask this, but does Personal Tutor replace Mystical Tutor here? It can't find Ad Nauseam or Dark Ritual, but it can get Burning Wish and its tutor targets (Rite of Flame is a sorcery!).

[Bryant Cook]

I know it's sort of trendy to ask this, but does Personal Tutor replace Mystical Tutor here? It can't find Ad Nauseam or Dark Ritual, but it can get Burning Wish and its tutor targets (Rite of Flame is a sorcery!).

My next level answer is no.

I see why you would bring it up. Since we play a sideboard of Sorcerys, Personal Tutor would grab them all if we sided them in. Although the most important sideboard card is Krosan Grip, we can't tutor for it in our toughest match-up.

It could be useful with Deamthmark, but here's a situation.

Gaddeck Teeg -> Go.
Can't EOT Tutor.
Untap. Personal, go.
They now know the answer to Teeg is coming and can throw everything at you.
Kill it.

It's like you've been Time Walked.

[Anusien]

I see what you did there.

I mean, I see where Mystical Tutor could find sideboard bullets. And there's not really a card that replaces that function. I'm just thinking that if you spend a lot of time with Mystical Tutor finding Ad Nauseam and Dark Ritual, finding Infernal Tutor and Rite of Flame might not be that bad.

I'm sort of new to the deck; against Zoo are you boarding in Deathmark anyway? Or are you leaving it in the sideboard to Wish up?

[Bryant Cook]

I see what you did there.

I mean, I see where Mystical Tutor could find sideboard bullets. And there's not really a card that replaces that function. I'm just thinking that if you spend a lot of time with Mystical Tutor finding Ad Nauseam and Dark Ritual, finding Infernal Tutor and Rite of Flame might not be that bad.

I'm sort of new to the deck; against Zoo are you boarding in Deathmark anyway? Or are you leaving it in the sideboard to Wish up?

I'm opting to just play more business rather than more cantrips. I'm going to play 4 Infernal maindeck instead of 3, and move the 4th Chant effect (Silence) to the main.

My sideboard is a bit different I'm no longer playing Deathmark.

1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtsieze
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wipeaway
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Shattering Spree
3 Pyroblast

[JonBarber]

So I've been testing running the 4th IT maindeck, and I'm not loving it. There are so many games that I want to wish for it and win the game, and then can't. My vote, leave IT on the sb.

[Anusien]

Why Silence instead of Chant #4?

[JonBarber]

Why Silence instead of Chant #4?

Extirpate and Cabal Therapy. Or well at least thats why I run a split. And redirect effects. Silence doesn't target.

[Anusien]

Is that relevant compared to being able to use IT to tutor up extra Chant effects to beat counters?

[JonBarber]

Is that relevant compared to being able to use IT to tutor up extra Chant effects to beat counters?

I've had oppenents extirpate my duresses in B/U ant, so yeah, I do find it relevant. I also run a 2/2 split, so IT for an additional one is still possible.

[Bryant Cook]

So I've been testing running the 4th IT maindeck, and I'm not loving it. There are so many games that I want to wish for it and win the game, and then can't. My vote, leave IT on the sb.

Then don't play it. I like the extra sideboard slot. It's the first card to go out every round anyway, it's still a wish target in that aspect.

[emidln]

It's often better for control decks to Meddling Mage Orim's Chant than it is for them to name anything else. Having a split prevents you from being completely blown out by counterspell + meddling mage.

[Anusien]

What are you doing with Wish->Infernal Tutor so often? Wish->Infernal->Ad Nauseam is 9 mana.

[emidln]

It is legal to cast Burning Wish on a turn when you don't also cast what you wish for. Sometimes it's even optimal.

[JonBarber]

It is legal to cast Burning Wish on a turn when you don't also cast what you wish for. Sometimes it's even optimal.

I'm still working on becoming friends with Empty the Warrens and Diminishing returns. Therefore I'd rather wait a turn to find another LED so I can just win then instead of spend 3 turns beating with goblins and praying they don't topdeck a board wipe

[emidln]

I'm still working on becoming friends with Empty the Warrens and Diminishing returns. Therefore I'd rather wait a turn to find another LED so I can just win then instead of spend 3 turns beating with goblins and praying they don't topdeck a board wipe

You don't need to wait. Cast Wish->Infernal Tutor and pass. Next turn use your suddently free 2 mana (tapped for Wish last turn), and the 2 rit effects you already had to play IT->AdN.

[JonBarber]

lol@


You don't need to wait.


Cast Wish->Infernal Tutor and pass. Next turn

Regardless, my point is I want to be able to wish for IT. Whether or not it all happens in one turn doesn't really matter to me.

[emidln]

lol@





Regardless, my point is I want to be able to wish for IT. Whether or not it all happens in one turn doesn't really matter to me.

Congrats on ignoring what was being waited on (an extra LED). For that matter, drawing LED next turn is far from guaranteed. Wish->IT, go off next turn is a lot more likely.

[JonBarber]

Congrats on ignoring what was being waited on (an extra LED). For that matter, drawing LED next turn is far from guaranteed. Wish->IT, go off next turn is a lot more likely.

"Finding" implied using brainstorms and ponders.

[Bryant Cook]

What are you doing with Wish->Infernal Tutor so often? Wish->Infernal->Ad Nauseam is 9 mana.

It is. Which is why I'm not sold on it. It's pretty much a safety net for people who are uncomfortable winning with Ill-Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns, and/or Empty the Warrens.

[JonBarber]

It is. Which is why I'm not sold on it. It's pretty much a safety net for people who are uncomfortable winning with Ill-Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns, and/or Empty the Warrens.

I have no problem with iggy, but I will admit, etw and diminishing returns leaves more to luck than I'd like. But I guess more time with the deck will take care of that problem.

[Bryant Cook]

I have no problem with iggy, but I will admit, etw and diminishing returns leaves more to luck than I'd like. But I guess more time with the deck will take care of that problem.

What's the point of playing a combo deck if you don't want to be lucky every now and again? Anyone can be as lucky as me, they just need to try harder.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Diminishing Returns is the most fun way to win with TES :), plus it annoys your opponents when they don't realize you're trying to lethally Grapeshot them.

[JonBarber]

What's the point of playing a combo deck if you don't want to be lucky every now and again? Anyone can be as lucky as me, they just need to try harder.

Guess I'm too used to playing a good, consistent combo deck =P.

Hypothetical question, lets say you can cast burning with 6 mana floating (color of your choice), 4 storm count, and no infernal or BWish in your hand/yard. Do you empty the warrens for 10, diminishing returns, or wait to find one more mana to infernal into ad naus? (assume you've chanted your opponent).

[Bryant Cook]

Guess I'm too used to playing a good, consistent combo deck =P.

Hypothetical question, lets say you can cast burning with 6 mana floating (color of your choice), 4 storm count, and no infernal or BWish in your hand/yard. Do you empty the warrens for 10, diminishing returns, or wait to find one more mana to infernal into ad naus? (assume you've chanted your opponent).

It all depends on what you're playing against and what turn. Have you duressed them this game?

If it's turns 1-2 versus blue I'd Empty the Warrens, if I know they're holding an EE (Duress), I'll Returns.

If it's later in the game versus blue I'd Returns.

If it's against non-blue I'd Returns.

[GreenOne]

Guess I'm too used to playing a good, consistent combo deck =P.

Hypothetical question, lets say you can cast burning with 6 mana floating (color of your choice), 4 storm count, and no infernal or BWish in your hand/yard. Do you empty the warrens for 10, diminishing returns, or wait to find one more mana to infernal into ad naus? (assume you've chanted your opponent).

I'd play diminishing returns. And btw, if this happens it's probably the third turn, so ETW is not a great option anymore..

[Computer Love]

Anyone else think four chrome mox is too much? You never want two of them. I have been playing with three and it's much better. Even two would be better than four I think.

[Bryant Cook]

Anyone else think four chrome mox is too much? You never want two of them. I have been playing with three and it's much better. Even two would be better than four I think.

Some people play with three.

I believe they're nessesary for when you're trying to win with low life. I'm never disappointed to see them off an Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns.

[Computer Love]

Some people play with three.

I believe they're nessesary for when you're trying to win with low life. I'm never disappointed to see them off an Ad Nauseam or Diminishing Returns.

That's fair. I just too often find myself with one or two in my hand that are useless aside from adding to my storm count.

[paK0]

Ok, since I picked up a good chuck of the deck for a reasonable price some days ago I got a little interested in this. I'm still getting used to the deck so I wanted to ask some more experienced players for advice:

On the play versus an unknown opponent, you have a turn 1 Ad Nauseam in hand:
-Do you go for it?
-Do you go for it if you have Duress but have to delay AN to turn two if you play it?
-Do you go for it if you have Ponder/Brainstorm but have to delay AN to turn two if you play it?

Wipe away in the board:
I'm not sure about this one, it is flexible, but it hardly seems like the perfect answear. A CoV or Hurkyls seems better.


tnx in advance

[Bryant Cook]

Ok, since I picked up a good chuck of the deck for a reasonable price some days ago I got a little interested in this. I'm still getting used to the deck so I wanted to ask some more experienced players for advice:

On the play versus an unknown opponent, you have a turn 1 Ad Nauseam in hand:
-Do you go for it?
-Do you go for it if you have Duress but have to delay AN to turn two if you play it?
-Do you go for it if you have Ponder/Brainstorm but have to delay AN to turn two if you play it?

Wipe away in the board:
I'm not sure about this one, it is flexible, but it hardly seems like the perfect answear. A CoV or Hurkyls seems better.


tnx in advance

Yes.
No. Wait.
Go for it.

It's there for Counterbalance/randomness. Where those cards don't resolve through counterbalance.

[JonBarber]

I went 2-2 with TES today at my local. I beat the mirror game 1, I lost to survival top decking mindbreak trap, I lost to U/R control, and I beat dragon stompy. I'll be playing it again tomorrow. Land base felt kinda shaky, but idk if its worth adjusting. 4 of Chrome Mox is pretty ballin' at times.

[loop]

I brought TES to a legacy fnm yesterday and went 3-1, my loss being to UW merfolk packing Canonists and Meddling Mages.

I didn't know he had hatebears so I sided 3 REB's for... 1 IT, 1 mox, 1 IGG,.
I duress'ed him and was about to go off turn3 chant-protected but he dropped Canonist, and I couldn't find an answer in time.

So now I'm trying to come up with a decent boarding plan in this kind of situation. I don't want to dillute the deck too much and REB's do seem sexy, but then again I dont want to lose to Canonist either so bringing anti-hate seems mandatory, can't rely on BWish alone. So how would you people sideboard?

My SB for the event was

1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 IGG
1 D. Returns
1 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Deathmark
3 REB

[Bryant Cook]

I brought TES to a legacy fnm yesterday and went 3-1, my loss being to UW merfolk packing Canonists and Meddling Mages.

I didn't know he had hatebears so I sided 3 REB's for... 1 IT, 1 mox, 1 IGG,.
I duress'ed him and was about to go off turn3 chant-protected but he dropped Canonist, and I couldn't find an answer in time.

So now I'm trying to come up with a decent boarding plan in this kind of situation. I don't want to dillute the deck too much and REB's do seem sexy, but then again I dont want to lose to Canonist either so bringing anti-hate seems mandatory, can't rely on BWish alone. So how would you people sideboard?

My SB for the event was

1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 IGG
1 D. Returns
1 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
2 Deathmark
3 REB

1.) Don't play Ill-Gotten Gains maindeck.
2.) Grapeshot > Pyroclasm.
3.) Pyroblast > REB. You can Pyroblast a land in order to get Hellbent.
4.) I usually take out -1 Infernal, -1 Mox, -1 Ponder, if I need to take out more...-1 Brainstorm, -1 Empty

[Vacrix]

2.) Grapeshot > Pyroclasm.

I brought TES to a legacy fnm yesterday and went 3-1, my loss being to UW merfolk packing Canonists and Meddling Mages.
Might Pyroclasm be a better call given the specific bears he is facing? Cannonist makes Grapeshot pretty bad, especially if you have to deal with multiple bears.

[magicplaya10]

Might Pyroclasm be a better call given the specific bears he is facing? Cannonist makes Grapeshot pretty bad, especially if you have to deal with multiple bears.

That's where Deathmark comes in, if you're running it. Cannonist, being an artifact, also dies to your Shat Sprees and Grips.

[jin]

3.) Pyroblast > REB. You can Pyroblast a land in order to get Hellbent.


Sorry, am I missing something.. could you please elaborate on this? How can you pyroblast a land?


EDIT: n/m, I googled it.. that's interesting..

[loop]

1.) Don't play Ill-Gotten Gains maindeck.
2.) Grapeshot > Pyroclasm.
3.) Pyroblast > REB. You can Pyroblast a land in order to get Hellbent.
4.) I usually take out -1 Infernal, -1 Mox, -1 Ponder, if I need to take out more...-1 Brainstorm, -1 Empty

Thanks for the fast reply. About that:
1) Yeah, I've never been a big fan of EtW but I guess it does make sense, I will try it.

2) I've rarely ever done fancy tricks with Grapeshot, at least not often enough that I felt it warranted a slot in my wishboard, while Clasm was a surefire way to deal with several hatebears (I mean it will get me out of tough situations like Canonist + Teeg, etc). Is that less relevant than the possible grapeshot plays somehow? I've read about some plays you've pulled off in your reports, but overall it seems pretty rare. I'm interested in hearing more about this tho.

3) Yeah, I actually play Pyroblasts, just typed in REB not really thinking about it since it's functionally identical and that wasnt the point I was asking advice about. Totally agree tho.

4) Ok, thanks. So let's say you played against a similar build, Merfolks with Canonist/MM, would a SB plan like -1 IT -1 Mox -1 Ponder -1 BS -1 EtW +3 Pyro +2 Deathmark seem ok to you? Lots of answers to MM but I'd still feel a bit unprepared for Canonist which is the real issue here, counters and MM arent that scary.

[NQN]

Srsly, how often will you face Merrows with Mmage AND Canonist? Even one is a rare occasion. I´d not care too much about that.
I´m back to TES too, loved the deck back then when ANT wasnt printed and I´m somehow happy and I can pick it up without hating myself for not playing ANT anymore :)

[loop]

Srsly, how often will you face Merrows with Mmage AND Canonist? Even one is a rare occasion. I´d not care too much about that.
I´m back to TES too, loved the deck back then when ANT wasnt printed and I´m somehow happy and I can pick it up without hating myself for not playing ANT anymore :)

Well it's an example : it applies to basically any opponent bringing heavy hate with countermagic backup, and I do feel it's important. I generally try to answer everything but I fear I might go a little overboard and dillute the deck too much, hence my asking.

[Bryant Cook]

2) I've rarely ever done fancy tricks with Grapeshot, at least not often enough that I felt it warranted a slot in my wishboard, while Clasm was a surefire way to deal with several hatebears (I mean it will get me out of tough situations like Canonist + Teeg, etc). Is that less relevant than the possible grapeshot plays somehow? I've read about some plays you've pulled off in your reports, but overall it seems pretty rare. I'm interested in hearing more about this tho.

4) Ok, thanks. So let's say you played against a similar build, Merfolks with Canonist/MM, would a SB plan like -1 IT -1 Mox -1 Ponder -1 BS -1 EtW +3 Pyro +2 Deathmark seem ok to you? Lots of answers to MM but I'd still feel a bit unprepared for Canonist which is the real issue here, counters and MM arent that scary.

I do things other than show-boat with Grapeshot.

A few weeks ago I Burning Wish -> Grapeshotted for 6-7, then casted the Tendrils in my hand versus blue. Where nothing else would've helped me out of my wishboard at that time. But grapeshot won the game.

Grapeshot kills a hate bear and deals the remaining damage to your opponent which is huge, in my top 4 versus Jesse Hatfield with Zoo I was unfortunately one damage short of killing Teeg + Him, Infernal, Tendrils. Too bad he never fetched that game...

There are some other examples in reports too.

...and it's fucking awesome to kill people with Grapeshot.

[Jim Higginbottom]

Yea no one wants to die to grapeshot, hence why I scooped to you at the last Vestal tournament.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Well it's an example : it applies to basically any opponent bringing heavy hate with countermagic backup, and I do feel it's important. I generally try to answer everything but I fear I might go a little overboard and dillute the deck too much, hence my asking.

EtW seems good in that matchup if you can get it early since merfolk has like no mass removal save ET

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah going grapeshot then ToA'ing for lethal is awesome since you can theoretically do it without drawing any cards or using any engines if you can muster enough mana with your hand something along the lines of this sample hand:

Wish, tendrils, dark ritual x2, LED, petal, rite of flame.

And killing someone with grapeshot is so hilarious like Bryant says its especially hilarious when they have MM on ToA only to get grapeshotted for 20 to the head.

And merfolk with mage and canonists would be a rare occurrence unless your entire meta was combo decks and it required that many slots to beat combo. That many hatebears would be a nightmare though unless you ran pyroclasm in place of grapeshot which is IMO suboptimal.

[GreenOne]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/M11/ygonv760lw_EN.jpg
Is this going to have an impact?
It's probably better suited for decks with more fetchlands/duals, since they're usually running Krosan Grips, Swarm or carpet of flowers.

Obviously this is not going to work against opposing Chants, Stifles, Lightning Bolts or whatever. Just counters.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Basically strictly worse than Chants. You can't chantwalk them (which means you can be hit by discard), it still doesn't stop counterbalance, you are going to run into chant and there are a lot of other things, this thing does worse than Chant or discard.

[Bryant Cook]

If it said by spells or abilities I'd be all over it. Sadly, it doesn't.

[Lorgalis]

Did you see the new white Leyline? I don't know if it will see play, but...it screws Tendrils pretty hard. Not EtW though.

[tyleredw]

Did you see the new white Leyline? I don't know if it will see play, but...it screws Tendrils pretty hard. Not EtW though.

Seriously? I would hope people think that hoses tendrils and sideboard that. It's no more difficult to get rid of than a True Believer, provides 0 pressure, and since it's a Leyline, they'd have to mulligan to find it in order to make it relevant, so there would be the possibility of them starting with even less relevant cards. Sure, go ahead and board those.

[JonBarber]

Seriously? I would hope people think that hoses tendrils and sideboard that. It's no more difficult to get rid of than a True Believer, provides 0 pressure, and since it's a Leyline, they'd have to mulligan to find it in order to make it relevant, so there would be the possibility of them starting with even less relevant cards. Sure, go ahead and board those.

Haha seriouslyy. They are playing white, I'm already boarding in bounce for their canonist. Now I have to bounce their shitty enchantment AFTER I ad nauseam? I'm so screwed!

[LostButSeeking]

Haha seriouslyy. They are playing white, I'm already boarding in bounce for their canonist. Now I have to bounce their shitty enchantment AFTER I ad nauseam? I'm so screwed!

I'm a little less blase about this. More hate is more hate, and it's one more thing I have to consider when building my sideboard. I don't know about you, but my sideboard is already a little stretched because of the wishboard and hate for merfolk, hatebears, reanimator and artifacts like chalice. I didn't run Chains of vapor.

[JonBarber]

I'm a little less blase about this. More hate is more hate, and it's one more thing I have to consider when building my sideboard. I don't know about you, but my sideboard is already a little stretched because of the wishboard and hate for merfolk, hatebears, reanimator and artifacts like chalice. I didn't run Chains of vapor.

I run chains maindeck, and have echoing truth, wipe away, and eye of nowhere on my sb. Bounce targets are not a big deal for me.

[Dark Ritual]

Ummmm seriously? What deck will run that card? Enchantress maybe? Nothing else. It will be played in decks without countermagic just like mindbreak trap so it will probably be very easy to fight through. Maybe if someone tailored their SB only to beat combo and nothing else something along the lines of:

4 Sanctity Leyline
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Spell Pierce
3 Ethersworn Canonist

Then it would be hard to win for us but as is no one is expecting combo with mystical gone so they won't devote that many slots to the combo MU. I'm not scared of that card personally and canonist is a lot more worrisome since it provides a clock and costs 2.

[Vacrix]

Editted for truth


4 Sanctity Leyline
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Serum Powder
3 Ethersworn Canonist

Nobody will play that white Leyline except the noobs that don't know that a mulligan to 4 against TES is a game loss.

[magicplaya10]

What are your guys ideas about Perish in the board? Would it be better as Pyroclasm?

Here is my current sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Perish/Clasm/Deathmark?
1 Wipe Away
1 ETW
1 IGG
1 Diminishing Returns


Also, what do you guys really feel about Wipe Away? I'm not so sure about this slot either...

Thanks!

[Dark Ritual]

Deathmark seems better than clasm and perish since it costs 1 mana to cast and does everything those other two are designed to do and more. Perish doesn't work against some hate bears such as meddling mage or ethersworn canonist and is therefore terrible along with costing 3 mana being quite a lot. Pyroclasm doesn't kill everything and can get spell snare'd whereas deathmark is simply great. And pyroclasm slowing aggro down isn't really an argument since that MU should be a bye with this deck since you simply storm out and win.

A mulligan to 4 against TES would be a game loss most likely for any deck except for lands where if you go tons of goblin tokens turn 1 only to have them play a tabernacle you are blown out with one land on board.

Also magicplaya your SB is kind of awkward with one ofs in the form of k grips, wipe away's, echoing truths, and chain of vapors. We no longer have mystical tutor so having one ofs doesn't cut it when it comes to finding them reliably post board. I suggest upping the count of k grips and wipe aways because they are the most resilient answers to CB apart from pyroblast on CT.

[jin]

What are your guys ideas about Perish in the board? Would it be better as Pyroclasm?

Here is my current sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Perish/Clasm/Deathmark?
1 Wipe Away
1 ETW
1 IGG
1 Diminishing Returns


Also, what do you guys really feel about Wipe Away? I'm not so sure about this slot either...

Thanks!

I think this is what my sideboard looks like right now except instead of chain of vapors I play thoughtseize, but I find I have too many cards to bring in against CBT, so I usually just bring in 1x kgrip, 1x wipeaway and 2x pyroblast.

[magicplaya10]

So deathmark instead? I want to try and make it a 2-of at least then. What else should be cut?

Yea I know, a lot of 1-ofs. I'm trying to cut it down. Maybe cut a chain of vapor? I play TPS in vintage, and Chain is nuts there, so I was thinking it could be the same concept..

Thanks!

[jin]

I think pyroblast #3 is really the only thing you can move.. Bryant played with 2 and it was fine..
I main chain of vapors.. so...

[JonBarber]

Deathmark seems better than clasm and perish since it costs 1 mana to cast and does everything those other two are designed to do and more. Perish doesn't work against some hate bears such as meddling mage or ethersworn canonist and is therefore terrible along with costing 3 mana being quite a lot. Pyroclasm doesn't kill everything and can get spell snare'd whereas deathmark is simply great. And pyroclasm slowing aggro down isn't really an argument since that MU should be a bye with this deck since you simply storm out and win.

A mulligan to 4 against TES would be a game loss most likely for any deck except for lands where if you go tons of goblin tokens turn 1 only to have them play a tabernacle you are blown out with one land on board.

Also magicplaya your SB is kind of awkward with one ofs in the form of k grips, wipe away's, echoing truths, and chain of vapors. We no longer have mystical tutor so having one ofs doesn't cut it when it comes to finding them reliably post board. I suggest upping the count of k grips and wipe aways because they are the most resilient answers to CB apart from pyroblast on CT.

Yeah, Zoo is a bye, right Bryant? =P

[Pelikanudo]

Hello Bryant, now that we do not have mystical why do you play cards like
1 Wipeaway
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
in the side?
it seems not efficient having 1 of, at least if it would be sorcerys....
What would you put insead Empty the warrens?
maybe it's tiem to go back to D.Confidants...

[Bryant Cook]

All new opening post.

-Information.
-Decklist.
-Sample hands.
-Sample hands for you.
-Sideboarding.
-Match-ups.
-Reports/Articles.

[Piceli89]

I think you should check again the OP because there are some contradictions. In some points, you're still talking aout the list with SSGs. In my opinion , you should also put some brief examples where, given an initial hand and a hypothetical deck you're playing against, you examine which should be the correct play. Because there's a huge difference between goldfishing a combo deck and playing it against an opponent who puts a clock, hate cards, or disruption, and this is enormusly true for TES which has the wider decision tree among all the combo decks in the format.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like also to know what you're used to do when you open double-tutor hand, precisely something like this:

Dark ritual, Rite of flame, Burning Wish, Burning Wish, Mox, Duress, USea.

Next card drawn: fetchland.

I've examined the possibilities, and I thought this:
-if we're playing against a blue deck/slow, non-aggro deck, we could:

-t1 duress.
-t2 fetch, Mox pitching Wish, ritual, rite, wish for Etw creating 10 tokens.

My main concern here, though, is that I'm not a big fan of Empty the Warrens when I know that the opponent might play mass removal ala EE/Firespout, or just recover the race with a single War Monk blocking (attack, go to 10, he plays RWM, you attack, he blocks one and goes to 13 then 4, he drops a goyf, you attack with 9 tokens..oh wait, that could work). Bant, Landstill and New Horizons fall under this category. Merfolk is doable, instead (forgiving Echoing Truth ).

Then, if I'm not opting for the EtW plan, what could I grab with those Wishes?
If i want, let's say, to go Ad Nauseam, I could:

-t1 land, mox imprinting Wish, Wish for Infernal.
-t2 pass, or play Duress hoping to draw another mana source the turn after.
-t3 and so: it depends on what you draw.
-Turn x: go all in for Infernal on Ad Nauseam. Of course this gets worse as the turns pass because a single duress could not be enough for a double counter/ double fow+blue pitch.

What against aggro, instead? How would you play it? Let's assume we're on the draw against an unknown opponent. He goes taiga, Nacatl. We draw the fetchland. Which are our options now?
-We could produce 10 tokens, but to me EtW<12 is suboptimal against Zoo (on the draw), given mot of their lists play a bunch of big 1 drops that makes it easy to recover from some 1/1s.
-Again, we could Wish for Infernal on t1, then try to go all-in on t2 starting from at least 16 (Nacatl beats+fetch). This i risky because Hellbent could be stopped from a "wrong" card drawn (Chant, Tendrils, EtW, and such).

Is there something else I'm missing? Maybe against Zoo the correct play would be to go t1 wish for IGG. Given we don't draw a mana source, we'd go like this:
-t1 land go,
-t2 fetchland (2 lands), mox imprinting Duress, rite, ritual, igg, discard (2nd) Wish and card drawn for the turn. 1 red mana left.
bring back rite, ritual and Wish. Tap Mox for B, rite, ritual, only 5 mana avaiable, fail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the Mystical replacements. I've seen you've moved the 4th Infernal maindeck, ass well as a 4th chant. I've tested and goldfished the deck a lot with 4 that configuration, and even played a tournament. From my experience, I can say that:
- The 4th Infernal to me should belong to the sideboard, because there are times when you can't grab a strong engine piece via Burning Wish + spare B/R rituals (Diminishing depends on LED given the 2 U in the casting cost, IGG requires a Infernal in the yard and does not work using -a single-Wish; Etw is bad against aggro in a small/medium storm qty), and what you need is Infernal to go off the turn after. This has happened to me 2 times. Also, I've drawn more than one time a hand with 3 mixed tutors and Wishes, and it was incredibly slow and dificult to come out from that.

- The newer manabase configuration with 4 fetchland can't really afford a full set of chants, because now it's more emphasized on the Fetchlands+Duals part, while the rainbow one got weakened. So, it often happens that you lead only with fetchlands or duals, and you draw a Chant with the impossibility to cast it from permanent sources, or even worse, with it clogging your Infernal tutor Hellbent. This has happened to me 3-4 times, and from then I'm playing 3 Chants and I'm fine. I've also founded, contrarily to my previous beliefs (see immediately-after Mystical ban posts), that 7 is the right quantity of protection spells for this deck, with the 8th being tied on Chain of Vapor because it's such an amazing storm engine with 4 petals and 4 moxes, grows Empty the Warrens really well, and allows for a quick Gaddok Teeg out since g1, as well as being way superior against aggro than Chant.
In fact, opening with double chant or topdecking one against aggro made me really upset because it was half a dead card; an effective timewalk, but nothing more. It's also more difficult now to kicker Chant, so it's pretty meh.
I think this protection package, even without the 4th chant, is effective enough against blue decks, since the deck is fast and can win out of 1 protection+ storm chain in the first turns. 8 3-per-1 cantrips, still, allow to find the desired Chant or Duress pretty effectively.
Also, 8 protections sometimes make you draw 2 or 3 in the opening, causing a mulligan unless being against Landstill. The deck still wants to retain its fluidity.


What could be the 59th and the 60th card, then? My vote goes on 2 Pre Ordain, or 1 Pre Ordain/14th land. I'm unsure on the 14th land, even If i'm currently playing it (a second Volcanic to power up red and Spree) because sometimes I really get land-heavy hands (3 or 4, or topdeck more). But i believe we should refer to tournament situations, now goldfish ones, when the opponent is denial'ing you with Wasteland and Stifle. Here the 14th land is really golden. Bryant, any experience against someone heavily destroying your mana (Team America, New Horizons)?
2 additional cantrips may slightly slow the deck, but they could give even more flexibility. Test will tell;aatm I can't find better replacements. As i've said, in my opinion the 4th Infernal and Chant are not good, or not good enough to stay MD.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some observations, for those who care:

-Diminishing returns is a fantastic piece of engine, not only a "oh shit button". There have been times when I willingfully DR'ed even with no mana left just to give me a new hand. One could argue that it's a stupid move to do if you can't win that same turn because you're giving your opponent 7 new cards, too, but sometimes I've found that , if you already have on the field 2-3 lands, you can fight against blue decks really well (given the absence of Cb), even if they got 7 new potential troubles. Againt tempo decks, unless they're already ahead on the race or destroying all your lands via Wasteland+Knight, TES still has a pretty good window of winning the protection war and going off, as long as it manages to keep its mana "large".
Of course, Returns is godly against discard-heavy junk (which pour up regularly here), as well as Dredge (another popular local archetype). I think I'll keep it in the sideboard from now on, seeing how half of my wins against aggro came from that even in desperate situations.

-Now perhaps I'm seeing why this deck really needs 4 Moxes. Explosive acceleration, as well as feeding the main storm engines really well, are what this deck needs. We can't dilute it towards more ANTish lists, because this deck works differently from ANT.
So I'll go up to 4. Topdecking double Mox or drawing 2, as well as worsening the mulligans, is a risk I'm willing to run if their presence improve Returns and Ad Nauseam that much (you can go off from like 8 and still not killing yourself). Also, Mox works as a nice color fixer, especially in tutor-heavy hands, and takes off the crap to give Infernal Hellbent.

[Bryant Cook]

I think you should check again the OP because there are some contradictions. In some points, you're still talking aout the list with SSGs. In my opinion , you should also put some brief examples where, given an initial hand and a hypothetical deck you're playing against, you examine which should be the correct play. Because there's a huge difference between goldfishing a combo deck and playing it against an opponent who puts a clock, hate cards, or disruption, and this is enormusly true for TES which has the wider decision tree among all the combo decks in the format.
It's a two year old post, there's bound to be a few mistakes. I'll look for them.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like also to know what you're used to do when you open double-tutor hand, precisely something like this:

Dark ritual, Rite of flame, Burning Wish, Burning Wish, Mox, Duress, USea.

Next card drawn: fetchland.

I've examined the possibilities, and I thought this:
-if we're playing against a blue deck/slow, non-aggro deck, we could:

-t1 duress.
-t2 fetch, Mox pitching Wish, ritual, rite, wish for Etw creating 10 tokens.

My main concern here, though, is that I'm not a big fan of Empty the Warrens when I know that the opponent might play mass removal ala EE/Firespout, or just recover the race with a single War Monk blocking (attack, go to 10, he plays RWM, you attack, he blocks one and goes to 13 then 4, he drops a goyf, you attack with 9 tokens..oh wait, that could work). Bant, Landstill and New Horizons fall under this category. Merfolk is doable, instead (forgiving Echoing Truth ). They are sample hands. Don't take them this seriously. They're for beginners looking on what to expect for a feel of the deck. If you'll notice there's a sample hand for each engine/storm card.


Then, if I'm not opting for the EtW plan, what could I grab with those Wishes?
If i want, let's say, to go Ad Nauseam, I could:

-t1 land, mox imprinting Wish, Wish for Infernal.
-t2 pass, or play Duress hoping to draw another mana source the turn after.
-t3 and so: it depends on what you draw.
-Turn x: go all in for Infernal on Ad Nauseam. Of course this gets worse as the turns pass because a single duress could not be enough for a double counter/ double fow+blue pitch.

What against aggro, instead? How would you play it? Let's assume we're on the draw against an unknown opponent. He goes taiga, Nacatl. We draw the fetchland. Which are our options now?
-We could produce 10 tokens, but to me EtW<12 is suboptimal against Zoo (on the draw), given mot of their lists play a bunch of big 1 drops that makes it easy to recover from some 1/1s.
-Again, we could Wish for Infernal on t1, then try to go all-in on t2 starting from at least 16 (Nacatl beats+fetch). This i risky because Hellbent could be stopped from a "wrong" card drawn (Chant, Tendrils, EtW, and such).

Is there something else I'm missing? Maybe against Zoo the correct play would be to go t1 wish for IGG. Given we don't draw a mana source, we'd go like this:
-t1 land go,
-t2 fetchland (2 lands), mox imprinting Duress, rite, ritual, igg, discard (2nd) Wish and card drawn for the turn. 1 red mana left.
bring back rite, ritual and Wish. Tap Mox for B, rite, ritual, only 5 mana avaiable, fail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would rather Warrens then have a turn 4 unprotected Nauseam.


About the Mystical replacements. I've seen you've moved the 4th Infernal maindeck, ass well as a 4th chant. I've tested and goldfished the deck a lot with 4 that configuration, and even played a tournament. From my experience, I can say that:
- The 4th Infernal to me should belong to the sideboard, because there are times when you can't grab a strong engine piece via Burning Wish + spare B/R rituals (Diminishing depends on LED given the 2 U in the casting cost, IGG requires a Infernal in the yard and does not work using -a single-Wish; Etw is bad against aggro in a small/medium storm qty), and what you need is Infernal to go off the turn after. This has happened to me 2 times. Also, I've drawn more than one time a hand with 3 mixed tutors and Wishes, and it was incredibly slow and dificult to come out from that. I've tested and played in events with my list too. I did quite well. I'd rather have the spare sideboard space making Infernal a wish target post-board. I hardly ever wished for it when it was in the sideboard, I don't understand why everyone feels the need that they have to win with Ad Nauseam all the time. Ill-Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns will get you there.


- The newer manabase configuration with 4 fetchland can't really afford a full set of chants, because now it's more emphasized on the Fetchlands+Duals part, while the rainbow one got weakened. So, it often happens that you lead only with fetchlands or duals, and you draw a Chant with the impossibility to cast it from permanent sources, or even worse, with it clogging your Infernal tutor Hellbent. This has happened to me 3-4 times, and from then I'm playing 3 Chants and I'm fine. I've also founded, contrarily to my previous beliefs (see immediately-after Mystical ban posts), that 7 is the right quantity of protection spells for this deck, with the 8th being tied on Chain of Vapor because it's such an amazing storm engine with 4 petals and 4 moxes, grows Empty the Warrens really well, and allows for a quick Gaddok Teeg out since g1, as well as being way superior against aggro than Chant.
In fact, opening with double chant or topdecking one against aggro made me really upset because it was half a dead card; an effective timewalk, but nothing more. It's also more difficult now to kicker Chant, so it's pretty meh.
I think this protection package, even without the 4th chant, is effective enough against blue decks, since the deck is fast and can win out of 1 protection+ storm chain in the first turns. 8 3-per-1 cantrips, still, allow to find the desired Chant or Duress pretty effectively.
Also, 8 protections sometimes make you draw 2 or 3 in the opening, causing a mulligan unless being against Landstill. The deck still wants to retain its fluidity.
Oh yes, because we cut Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal from the deck too? The deck doesn't have problems making off color mana. I think this is a silly argument from someone who just doesn't like my changes. It's not like the manabase is all fetches and duals with a singleton Tundra. It still has six 5c lands and 4 Lotus Petal/4 Chrome Mox, we can cast 3 Chants just as effectively as we can cast 4. Chain of Vapor is not the answer we're looking for, there's no reason whatsoever, to play a maindeck bounce spell. We have zero ways of finding it and it'd be too random. The chances of you having Chain and a permanant that need to be bounced game one are very slim.

Are we really playing Orim's Chant for the kicker? Let's be honest here. Not to mention the 4th Chant effect that I added doesn't have Kicker. Don't use this as an excuse.


What could be the 59th and the 60th card, then? My vote goes on 2 Pre Ordain, or 1 Pre Ordain/14th land. I'm unsure on the 14th land, even If i'm currently playing it (a second Volcanic to power up red and Spree) because sometimes I really get land-heavy hands (3 or 4, or topdeck more). But i believe we should refer to tournament situations, now goldfish ones, when the opponent is denial'ing you with Wasteland and Stifle. Here the 14th land is really golden. Bryant, any experience against someone heavily destroying your mana (Team America, New Horizons)?
2 additional cantrips may slightly slow the deck, but they could give even more flexibility. Test will tell;aatm I can't find better replacements. As i've said, in my opinion the 4th Infernal and Chant are not good, or not good enough to stay MD.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with Pre Ordain and the 14th land. We play Gemstone mine, going up to 9/10 cantrips becomes dangerous and bad for the deck. It wastes away counters and we don't want to spend our entire early game cantripping up until turn 3-4. This isn't Threshold. The 14th land isn't needed, I often find myself flooded with 13, you don't want to make the deck be unable to go Hellbent because of lands.

My last report, I played against both Team America and New Horizons. I beat a blue deck every round, up until top 4.



Some observations, for those who care:
-Diminishing returns is a fantastic piece of engine, not only a "oh shit button". There have been times when I willingfully DR'ed even with no mana left just to give me a new hand. One could argue that it's a stupid move to do if you can't win that same turn because you're giving your opponent 7 new cards, too, but sometimes I've found that , if you already have on the field 2-3 lands, you can fight against blue decks really well (given the absence of Cb), even if they got 7 new potential troubles. Againt tempo decks, unless they're already ahead on the race or destroying all your lands via Wasteland+Knight, TES still has a pretty good window of winning the protection war and going off, as long as it manages to keep its mana "large".
Of course, Returns is godly against discard-heavy junk (which pour up regularly here), as well as Dredge (another popular local archetype). I think I'll keep it in the sideboard from now on, seeing how half of my wins against aggro came from that even in desperate situations.

-Now perhaps I'm seeing why this deck really needs 4 Moxes. Explosive acceleration, as well as feeding the main storm engines really well, are what this deck needs. We can't dilute it towards more ANTish lists, because this deck works differently from ANT.
So I'll go up to 4. Topdecking double Mox or drawing 2, as well as worsening the mulligans, is a risk I'm willing to run if their presence improve Returns and Ad Nauseam that much (you can go off from like 8 and still not killing yourself). Also, Mox works as a nice color fixer, especially in tutor-heavy hands, and takes off the crap to give Infernal Hellbent.

I don't disagree with anything here.

[NQN]

The Problem Ive had with Wish->Ill Gotten is that, since Wish removes itself, you need to hold IT or another Bwish to win with that. So, without IT in the sideboard, you´re oftentimes forced to go via DReturns which fizzles in 70% of the times I cast it :/ But nothing can stop me from taking TES to the next tournament because I just love the way it looks :)

[Bryant Cook]

The Problem Ive had with Wish->Ill Gotten is that, since Wish removes itself, you need to hold IT or another Bwish to win with that. So, without IT in the sideboard, you´re oftentimes forced to go via DReturns which fizzles in 70% of the times I cast it :/ But nothing can stop me from taking TES to the next tournament because I just love the way it looks :)

Most of the time that I use Wish-> IGG, I've infernalled for a second Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame/Lion's Eye Diamond. With the extra Infernal maindeck, the chances of having 1 of each also goes up. ;p

I find it hard to believe that your fizzle rate is 70%, because mines not even 30%.

[Piceli89]

Drifting from the Chant and Infernal issue, for which time and testing and tournaments will tell..


VIII. Match-Ups

a.) Threshold/NQG/BANT - (45%-55%)

- Do you have protection? What game is it? If it’s game one you want to concentrate on winning before Counterbalance hits the table. Generally an open hand Duress helps you out here. If you can you want to win with Orim’s Chant/Duress or Burning Wish -> Duress. You have to keep in mind that on top of Counterbalance they have Force of Will and Daze, don’t walk into them.

- How are you going to win? Are you using Ad Nauseam/ Ill-Gotten Gains/Burning Wish? You want to cast Ad Nauseam at a safe life total, it can be very risky to cast at a life total lower that 13. This is where you want to play Ill-Gotten Gains, however, without Orim’s Chant Ill-Gotten Gains can be risky. They can get back Force of Will. Lastly, you have Burning Wish; you have to ask yourself, “Do they play Engineered Explosives?” if you don’t think so cast Empty the Warrens. If you’re skeptical there’s Diminishing Returns, but be careful, you could refill their hand with answers.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Wipe Away
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Silence

b.) Merfolk – (50%)

- Unlike the Thresh variants, Merfolk doesn’t play Counterbalance; this takes a huge weight off of our shoulders. Merfolk really only has four relevant cards against us in the turn we would like to win – Force of Will. They also play eight Daze effects; however, as long as you’re smart about it, they shouldn’t ruin your day. When you want to win count your mana plus two, if you think the game has gone on too long, be safe and count to three. One trick to combat Daze effects is to cast Rite of Flame, if they Daze, Dark Ritual in response.

- Merfolk and other tempo based decks also play the Stifle/Wasteland package. Many players don’t want to waste a stifle on a mox/Fetchland, so they wait for Tendrils. However, after Ad Nauseam we can often protect our win condition making stifle next to dead. However, wasteland is very good against us; with 13 non-basics it can target all of our lands. My advice is to try and keep a hand with 2 lands or 1 land and cantrips.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ponder

c.) Goblins - (70%)

-This match-up is pretty basic, game one all you really need to worry about is wasteland. Don’t walk into it, hold your land if you have to. Play cantrips, find more land if need be. Don’t just play out artifact mana game one and walk into Tin-Street Hooligan.

-Games two and three, watch out for Chalice of the Void and Pyrostatic Pillar. If they’re playing R/b watch out for Thoughtsieze and Cabal Therapy. It’s acceptable to play out artifact mana to avoid it getting discarded, countered, or making you take damage.

Sideboarding
-4 Orim’s Chant/Silence
+2 Shattering Spree
+1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Echoing Truth

d.) Ichorid (60-65%)

-This match-up is based on who can win faster – much like the combo mirror. You want to watch out for Cabal Therapy/Unmask, this means playing down your artifact mana early or holding Brainstorm. You can use Orim’s Chant proactively in this match-up, use it on their upkeep in early turns or later on use it to stop massive attacks. You can also let them combo, but if they mill Cabal Therapies, but Narcomoeba triggers on the stack. This way they don’t tear apart your hand. Keep in mind that the can Dead Return Iona.

-Postboard, watch out for Chalice of the Void on 0. They won’t be setting it for anything else. You want to Pyroblast their Breakthrough or Deep Analsys, this will often buy you multiple turns in order to win the game.

Sideboarding
-4 Orim’s Chant/Silence
-3 Duress
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Shattering Spree
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chain of Vapor

e.) UWx Landstill (60%)

-What you want to do is sculpt a hand that can plow through 2-3 counterspells, meaning you’ll probably have to find a few Duress/Chant effects and run them over. They don’t put you on a clock or have any cards such as counterbalance that are going to be deadly if they hit. Don’t be afraid to sit underneath standstill. Another option is going for a speedy kill, if you win awesome. If you don’t you have an entire game to recover since their clock is non-existent.

-Postboard, be prepared for anything from Runed Halo, Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, addition counterspells in negate, and Rule of Law. In my metagame Landstill players have adapted to me and have brought in their own Orim’s Chants. It’s not out of the question.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Wipe Away
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Silence

f.) Zoo (75%)

-Pretty basic and simple match-up, don’t go low enough on Ad Nauseam for them to Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast or Price of Progress for that matter. Beware of maindeck Gaddeck Teeg as its seeming to become a popular trend.

- Also pretty basic, don’t run into Gaddeck Teeg/Ethersworn canonist - be prepared. Much like the Landstill players, Zoo players are defaulting toward Chant. Don’t be shocked if it happens to you.

Sideboarding
-4 Orim’s Chant/Silence
+1 Shattering Spree
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Wipe Away

g.) Chalice Aggro (40-45%)

- By far our worst match-up, with Trinisphere, Chalice, Sphere of Resistance, and other problematic cards, there’s not much we can do other than win as past as possible. This is one of those match-ups that Empty the Warrens is golden. One thing I’ve done in the past is win with Trinisphere on the table. Let them kill themselves with Ancient Tomb, then get off a weak Tendrils for 3-4 Storm. This can get the job done.

-Post board, they won’t bring anything too useful in. However, Shattering Spree and bounce can change up the game plan a bit.

Sideboarding
-4 Orim’s Chant/Silence
+2 Shattering Spree
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Krosan Grip

h.) Reanimator (50%)

- Not a bad match-up, not a great one either. They have Thoughtsieze, Force of Will, and Daze for disruption. It's tough, but winnable. Their only animation target we really care about is Iona and we can win around her. Empty the Warrens is a great option if they've already landed her, it's a great option if they haven't too. Most lists don't play Echoing Truth maindeck. You can also Diminishing Returns to get around Iona on black. It is possible to win without casting black cards.

- Post board, they'll bring in more Duress. That's about it.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Wipe Away
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Silence
-1 Orim's Chant/Empty the Warrens




I've noticed a little thing here.
-Against Chalice Aggro and Goblins, do you side all the solutions in and leave anything in the sideboard as a wishable solution? This sounds strange to me, because Wish makes you virtually play 4x of a single solution, even if it's slow. Do you think it's more valuable to increase the chances to draw a Shattering Spree rather than Wish for it? If so, Wish only becomes "only" a storm engine fetcher post-side.

-Against Reanimator, similarly, no solution to be wished? I now Iona will name black 95% of the times, but it seems risky to me. Don't forget that Iona also gives a speed clock and they have lots of disruption, it may be good to leave something in the sideboard.

-Against Zoo, the wishable solution to Gaddock is Grapeshot. Never found yourself lacking the artifact to cast it for 2, or with it being too mana intensive? I did.

-As I perhaps already told one year ago or so, against Ichorid leaving Chants in is better than taking them out and leaving Duress. Duress is not going to take anything relevant if not a draw spell, and sometimes it's even an advantage for then if they have spare DReturns or Bridges rotting in their hand and they don't have a discard outlet. I'd rather take out the Duresses and put the Blasts in, as well as the Echoing Truth.
About Shattering Spree: no Ichorid build plays Cotv in side anymore. They don't fear the storm combo matchup anymore. They don't even play Nullrods, and, even if they did, they would have to mull for it a lot, probably, decreasing their combo chances. They pack Nature's Claim and/or Chain of Vapor on default. I think they're more used to board in Terastodon or Ancestor's Chosen against storm combo.

-Against Ichorid and Aggro (Goblins and Zoo): is it worth to leave Empty the Warrens in? Ichorid can race it pretty quickly. Zoo and Goblins maybe do with slightly more dificulty, but if it's past turn 2/3, it becomes pretty useless. Lack of anything better to side in?

[The Pharmacist]

Most of the time that I use Wish-> IGG, I've infernalled for a second Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame/Lion's Eye Diamond. With the extra Infernal maindeck, the chances of having 1 of each also goes up. ;p

I find it hard to believe that your fizzle rate is 70%, because mines not even 30%.

I really don't think that your fizzle rate is 70% also. I never really use Returns that much but I'm with Bryant on this one.

[Bryant Cook]

Drifting from the Chant and Infernal issue, for which time and testing and tournaments will tell..

I've noticed a little thing here.
-Against Chalice Aggro and Goblins, do you side all the solutions in and leave anything in the sideboard as a wishable solution? This sounds strange to me, because Wish makes you virtually play 4x of a single solution, even if it's slow. Do you think it's more valuable to increase the chances to draw a Shattering Spree rather than Wish for it? If so, Wish only becomes "only" a storm engine fetcher post-side. I made a mistake. I leave one Spree in the sideboard versus Goblins.


-Against Reanimator, similarly, no solution to be wished? I now Iona will name black 95% of the times, but it seems risky to me. Don't forget that Iona also gives a speed clock and they have lots of disruption, it may be good to leave something in the sideboard.

-Against Zoo, the wishable solution to Gaddock is Grapeshot. Never found yourself lacking the artifact to cast it for 2, or with it being too mana intensive? I did. I've been considering Eye of Nowhere over Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor, I'm not sure if this is worth it. I need to test more before I add it to my list. As for Teeg, I've never had the problem.


-As I perhaps already told one year ago or so, against Ichorid leaving Chants in is better than taking them out and leaving Duress. Duress is not going to take anything relevant if not a draw spell, and sometimes it's even an advantage for then if they have spare DReturns or Bridges rotting in their hand and they don't have a discard outlet. I'd rather take out the Duresses and put the Blasts in, as well as the Echoing Truth.
About Shattering Spree: no Ichorid build plays Cotv in side anymore. They don't fear the storm combo matchup anymore. They don't even play Nullrods, and, even if they did, they would have to mull for it a lot, probably, decreasing their combo chances. They pack Nature's Claim and/or Chain of Vapor on default. I think they're more used to board in Terastodon or Ancestor's Chosen against storm combo.

-Against Ichorid and Aggro (Goblins and Zoo): is it worth to leave Empty the Warrens in? Ichorid can race it pretty quickly. Zoo and Goblins maybe do with slightly more dificulty, but if it's past turn 2/3, it becomes pretty useless. Lack of anything better to side in?
We can still agree to disagree. I will board out Chant.

As for Spree, players in my area still play Chalice in Ichorid. I've seen it at large events too. I'm not taking the chance. Lack of anything better really.

[e_hawk77]

Round 1 vs Ninja Faeries


Game one: I have a nuts hand and am on the draw. He plays vial and passes. I play lotus petal dark ritual duress he has nothing then i go off with infernal for ad nauseum then tendrils him out.


Sideboard: +3 Pyroblast -1 duress -1 Chrome Mox -1 Silence


Game two: He plays island and passes I duress turn one and take force of will. He plays goyf. I play ponder and pass with it set up for next turn. He swings plays land and passes. I duress and combo out he has one more counterspell but i pyroblast it.


Round 2 vs Alluren with force, daze, chant and mage


Game One: I mull to five and never find a Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor. He plays turn 3 alluren and has recruiter, of course my top card is burning wish.


Sideboard: -1 mox -1 ponder -1 empty +3 Pyroblast


Game Two: Duress turn one he has a force and i take it. He plays the fetch that he top decks and I combo out the next turn.


Game Three: I mull to 5 again because i have no bussiness or disruption in my first two hands. He starts off really slow so he must have disrution but when i silence him turn 3 he doesn't do anything and I beat him easily with ad nauseum, Turns out he had no white for meddling mage.


Round 3 vs New Horizons


Game one: I go all in one a turn one empty the warrens for 14 on turn one with silence back up on the draw. He draws and plays engineered explosives on 0 and that is pretty much the game. He only has 2 in the deck so i thought it was a good shot that he wouldn't have it.


Sideboard: -1 empty the warrens -2 chrome mox - 1 ponder +3 pyroblast +1 thoughtseize


Game Two: I duress him turn one with the go off on turn two hand. He has Force of will times 3 daze ponder and stifle. I was like hmm well at least he doesn't have pressure but he draws a goyf a turn later and i dont have time to find enough cards to get through all that hate.


Round 4 vs Goblins


Game one: Finally a bye match-up!!!! He plays turn one lackey and I draw LED and kill him through ad nauseum turn one.


-1 empty the warrens +1 Ill-gotten gains


Game Two: This time he gets two turns and I win through Ill-gotten Gains loop.


Top 8 Vs New Horizons


Game one: This is the same guy (Troy Thompson) that i played in round 3 and we joke about how I will go for Empty the Warrens turn one again and he wont have the E.E. this time. That is exactly what happens I Duress him and he doesn't have it and i empty for 14. He has two draws and doesn't find E.E.


Sideboarding: same as round 3


Game Two: I set up for 2 turns with brainstorms. He just plays lands. Turn 3 after my draw he plays Vedillion Clique I only have Infernal Tutor as my win condition so i Pyroblast the v. clique. I draw thoughtsieze and see that he has another v. clique double stifle force of will and knight of the reliquary, I take the v. clique. I draws plays a land that he drew giving him four lands and plays knight of the reliquary. I am one mana short of going off the next turn so i pass it back to him. He wastes one of my lands then plays goyf, another top deck. I brainstorm eot into double lotus petal and dark ritual I put back a usless duress, as i have silence and pyroblast, and a land. I play rite of flame silence he forces pitching stifle and i play pyroblast then i play the rest of my hand out and infernal tutor for tendrils which is exactly enough to kill him.


We split top 4.


This is the list I was playing

4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Silence
4 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseum
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Blue Fetches

Sideboard

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrills of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Shattering Spree
1 Diminishing Returns
1 IGGY
1 Grapeshot
2 Krosan Grip
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast

I think after i played it i think i wanna take the empty of the main and play Ill-gotten gains instead other than that i really really liked how the deck preformed. I played ANT for a very long time and solidarity and Iggy pop before that so i have a good handle on combo but please let me know if you think i made any play errors or boarding errors please.