[Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm

[Brad Herbig]

I switched from 5c TES to 3c TES after I got wasted out of every game I lost at the GP. I play one Island and one Swamp, and I really like them. Between 4 Duress and 3 Thoughtseize (plus a thoughtseize and 3 pyroblasts in the board), I haven't really found a need for Chant or Xantid to fight blue, especially at the cost of a shitty manabase. Often if I can fetch both of my basics, I will have a land to both Duress and cantrip in a turn. This allows me to then just drop one of my duals on the turn I am going off in order to get whatever color I need. You only ever need blue and black before going off (exceptions are burning wish for protection), so having a basic island and swamp for the setup has proven to be helpful against the ridiculous amount of decks with Wastelands these days.

[frogboy]

Does anyone else prefer Deathmark over Grapeshot when answering hate bears? Wishing for Grapeshot is a frustrating amount of mana, but Wishing on two and casting Deathmark on three before going off is pretty easy.

(I get that you can set up Grapeshot for ~6 and finish with Tendrils, but if I have that much mana I'm pretty sure they're dead no matter what.)

[kilukru]

I have been running deathmark since i picked up the deck about 6 month ago, and it work pretty well.

For reference I run the chant's list with 14 lands and I've won the last two local tourney with it.

[LostButSeeking]

Does anyone else prefer Deathmark over Grapeshot when answering hate bears? Wishing for Grapeshot is a frustrating amount of mana, but Wishing on two and casting Deathmark on three before going off is pretty easy.


I run them both. Sometimes you need one, sometimes the other.

[Autotron]

this has been my sideboard. pretty happy with it so far.

4 Deathmark
4 Doomblade
4 Pyroclasm
2 Swamps
1 Carnage Altar (awesome after Empty the Warrens)

[median]

I'm playing around with perish, and firespout. I occasionally drop grapeshot for a fourth xantid swarm. My plan for canonist is shattering spree, meddling mage is warrens, so perish has been doing nicely against teeg and goyf aggro. Firespount buys be a few turns in the merfolk match so i'm kind of stalled on what do about those sweepers. I don't miss deathmark.

[rocketrae21]

I switched from 5c TES to 3c TES after I got wasted out of every game I lost at the GP. I play one Island and one Swamp, and I really like them. Between 4 Duress and 3 Thoughtseize (plus a thoughtseize and 3 pyroblasts in the board), I haven't really found a need for Chant or Xantid to fight blue, especially at the cost of a shitty manabase. Often if I can fetch both of my basics, I will have a land to both Duress and cantrip in a turn. This allows me to then just drop one of my duals on the turn I am going off in order to get whatever color I need. You only ever need blue and black before going off (exceptions are burning wish for protection), so having a basic island and swamp for the setup has proven to be helpful against the ridiculous amount of decks with Wastelands these days.

What is your mana base then? Are you running more duals and cut gemstones or cut Citys for basics?

[Stalker]

Hi guys, try this card as solution to the hate bears: Flame Slash of the Rise of Eldrazi set...

[lorddotm]

What is your mana base then? Are you running more duals and cut gemstones or cut Citys for basics?

It probably looks something like this:


4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island


At least that's what I run.

[frogboy]

emidln: After about twenty goldfishes, your list is averaging about eleven damage from Ad Nauseam for a kill on turn two or three depending on how much mana is floating. The other lists I've been working with are in the range of about eight, but it seems like in theory that your list should be roughly equivalent (second Ad Nauseam over Tendrils/Empty actually saves some life, but having to get +2 mana to IT -> Wish is sometimes an issue.) and I think I might just be running bad. How much damage do you usually take on the play/draw?

(it's also a little harder to set up an IGG loop (requires Wish+Wish instead of Wish+IT) but I think I'm okay with that if it means I never have to draw Tendrils or Empty manually)

[AriLax]

emidln: After about twenty goldfishes, your list is averaging about eleven damage from Ad Nauseam for a kill on turn two or three depending on how much mana is floating. The other lists I've been working with are in the range of about eight, but it seems like in theory that your list should be roughly equivalent (second Ad Nauseam over Tendrils/Empty actually saves some life, but having to get +2 mana to IT -> Wish is sometimes an issue.) and I think I might just be running bad. How much damage do you usually take on the play/draw?

(it's also a little harder to set up an IGG loop (requires Wish+Wish instead of Wish+IT) but I think I'm okay with that if it means I never have to draw Tendrils or Empty manually)


Can't you just Wish for IGG, Infernal for Wish, then Wish for Tendrils? Adds 2 more to the mana count, but that is very reasonable based on my experience with Grim Tutor.

Also, to everyone who runs Ponder now, try Preordain, especially if you have 8 Tutor/Wish. It's about a million times better on turn 1.

[ButtholeMcGhee]

this has been my sideboard. pretty happy with it so far.

4 Deathmark
4 Doomblade
4 Pyroclasm
2 Swamps
1 Carnage Altar (awesome after Empty the Warrens)

Mine is identical, except with only 3 Doomblade, and 1 Shared Fate.

[emidln]

emidln: After about twenty goldfishes, your list is averaging about eleven damage from Ad Nauseam for a kill on turn two or three depending on how much mana is floating. The other lists I've been working with are in the range of about eight, but it seems like in theory that your list should be roughly equivalent (second Ad Nauseam over Tendrils/Empty actually saves some life, but having to get +2 mana to IT -> Wish is sometimes an issue.) and I think I might just be running bad. How much damage do you usually take on the play/draw?

(it's also a little harder to set up an IGG loop (requires Wish+Wish instead of Wish+IT) but I think I'm okay with that if it means I never have to draw Tendrils or Empty manually)

After playing some more games (about 40), I've lost to not having Tendrils main at least 9 times. This has cost me at least 2 packs on mtgo. I'm back at a Tendrils main, but I'm not happy about it.

[frogboy]

I was pretty close to cutting a protection spell for a Tendrils. I like the second Ad Nauseam and basically hate maindeck Empty; I think I'm going to play 2 Ad Nauseam 1 Tendrils 0 Empty main. Whenever I can set up Infernal for Empty I'd usually rather wait a turn and set up ADN. Most of the time you choose between Infernal for Empty or Infernal for ADN with no mana next turn your Empty is only for like ten and not good enough anyway.

Is anyone else a fan of maindeck Thoughtseize? It saves damage for me against aggro and gets all of the psychopaths with maindeck Teegs. It's also nice against Survival draws when Mongrel is their only gas or whatever and your hand is slow because you're on a Duress plan.

I sort of want to maindeck more Seizes and Duresses to try to recapture some edge against Counterbalance rather than Xantids. I'd like to have 7 Duress 4 Swarm in the 75. It's a problem because I want the Duresses against Counterbalance and it's a worse matchup that needs the help, but Swarm is a huge huge edge against Madness/Merfolk.

[emidln]

Here's some analysis of the most common blue matchups w/respect to 3-4c TES:

Madness:

Duress/Thoughtseize alone are enough against Madness. That deck has 4 Force of Will, 2 Hope, and 3 Dreams against you. They have a somewhat fast clock, but it's actually not any faster than a decent Merfolk draw and a decent Merfolk draw probably has more disruption. You don't need Xantid, but if it resolves, there's nothing they can do about it. Basically having one protection spell and then being able to Ad Naus wins you most of the games in this matchup.

Merfolk:

Duress/Thoughtseize are good against them (several levels better than Chant here) but their extra taxing effects (Daze, Cursecatcher, and Spell Pierce) make for a rough time since they'll usually have 2-3 without taking into account stray wastelands when you don't draw enough fetches. You really want Xantid Swarm here since it will shut off everything but Cursecatcher, which alone is easy enough to play through. All in all this isn't an abysmal matchup, but without Xantid Swarm I don't like pushing my luck against them too often since their good draws will probably beat my good draws. This is really the reason to maindeck Xantid Swarm.

Columbus Counterbalance:

This deck is slow, vulnerable, and can has severe issues with Duress/Thoughtseize. That said, when they're on the play they have the ability to use cantrips to hide their Counterbalances. Spell Snare is functionally a hard counter requiring a Duress for most of your draws unless they do something like tap out for not-Counterbalance. Xantid Swarm doesn't do much in this matchup since they're probably not going to side out STPs since they suspect Bob and STP on their own Goyf can steal matches (not that they have much to side in anyway). This is where the Doomsday for Emrakul plan shines since they have 4 Force vs your 7-8 Duress and can't reliably CB your 3. The longer these games go, the worse they are for you since they have a very high probability of cantripping into CB. It's worth noting that active CB isn't the end of the world (you can play through it a decent amount of the time) but active SDT past turn 2 is far worse for you and ends up resulting in a match loss in most instances. This isn't necessarily from them hiding Forces on top as much as it lets them filter into disruption then a clock far faster than you can grab additional discard/solutions.

Dreadstill:

This matchup is bad no matter how you slice it. They run Force, Counterbalance, Stifle, and Wasteland. Their clock is respectable with Goyfs and/or Confidants and Dreadnoughts (Confidant is far bigger than a 2 power when the rest of their deck is composed of lands, filtering, and disruption). Some builds even have Trinket Mages to fetch their EEs. ETW isn't a bad plan here. Thoughtseize/Duress into a quick ETW/AdN is probably your best bet. Doomsday is awful here since they have Stifle/Waste. Xantid Swarm isn't very good due to Counterbalance, but it is respectable in that they'll often lose to it if they don't have CB+Top.

It comes down to Duress/Thoughtseize being the best options in most blue matchups except Merfolk. Unfortunately, Merfolk is often a much larger percentage of the metagame than the other blue decks due to being generally cheaper and fairly effective at hating out the other blue decks. You can take this analysis and configure your disruption as you expect for your metagame.

I didn't talk about Dark Confidant + extra Tendrils, but, quickly, you don't want to be dropping Bob in any matchup where they can put you on a fast clock. A quick clock means your Bob won't draw you many cards before you're forced to block with it. Matchups like this include Dreadstill, Merfolk, and Madness. Bob is okay against Counterbalance provided they side out all of their creature hate. Unfortunately they tend to have Spell Pierce and maybe Pyroblast as 3-6 slots in their sideboard while they run StP/Path, Firespout, EE, and sometimes Moat/Shackles as 7-12 dedicated creature hate. This means that they often won't be siding out all of their hate because they have nothing to board in. Turning on their otherwise dead cards in the name of stalling so they can get active CB doesn't seem like the best strategy.

[maxflow2]

this has been my sideboard. pretty happy with it so far.

4 Deathmark
4 Doomblade
4 Pyroclasm
2 Swamps
1 Carnage Altar (awesome after Empty the Warrens)

Needs more Carnage Altar.


It probably looks something like this:


4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island


At least that's what I run.

Why do you need the second Volcanic Island? I've been playing -1 Volcanic, +1 Scalding Tarn, +1 Bloodstained Mire and 3 Chrome Moxes. I also regularly side out a Swamp versus non Wasteland decks - I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that with the extra Volcanic because it'd leave too few black sources for a T1 Duress/Thoughtseize.

[emidln]

Needs more Carnage Altar.



Why do you need the second Volcanic Island? I've been playing -1 Volcanic, +1 Scalding Tarn, +1 Bloodstained Mire and 3 Chrome Moxes. I also regularly side out a Swamp versus non Wasteland decks - I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that with the extra Volcanic because it'd leave too few black sources for a T1 Duress/Thoughtseize.

The manabase is mine. The 3rd mountain is to support Pulverize out of the wishboard because it's the best artifact kill spell available. If you're playing vs a non-Wasteland non-Blue deck, you don't need to turn 1 Thoughtseize. If you're playing against a non-Wasteland Blue deck, you shouldn't be siding out lands anyway.

[lorddotm]

The manabase is mine. The 3rd mountain is to support Pulverize out of the wishboard because it's the best artifact kill spell available. If you're playing vs a non-Wasteland non-Blue deck, you don't need to turn 1 Thoughtseize. If you're playing against a non-Wasteland Blue deck, you shouldn't be siding out lands anyway.

Is that your manabase?

I just got to that because its good. It's more of a logical deduction than a techy manabase.

[emidln]

Is that your manabase?

I just got to that because its good. It's more of a logical deduction than a techy manabase.

Actually I lied. My posted manabases are 14 lands with an extra fetch. But yeah, it's a logical manabase if you're trying to support base UB with red needed sometimes pre-combo but mostly on the combo turn and you want to support Pulverize.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Running this in a tournament tomorrow. The tournament is a test run for a larger one coming up next week. Any suggestions?

13 Land
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 City of Brass
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave

47 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Silence
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Orim's Chant
1 Tendrils of Agony

15 Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Deathmark
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of vapor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meltdown
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

[linux-ll-]

There is no reason for playing Watery Grave over Underground Sea.

[Jim Higginbottom]

Of course there is. You don't own a second underground sea. That being said this thread is really turning to shit since its been moved to decks to beat.

[LostButSeeking]

I ran watery grave in UWb Landstill for a long time, and the life was never relevent. But HERE, it is. Run a rainbow land instead, or another fetch. Two life can be the difference between a successful ad nauseum and not.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I haven't had a chance to pick up a second Underground Sea yet. Legacy is pretty much non-existent in the Midwest, so cards are pretty hard to come by. I was thinking of throwing another City of Brass in that slot.

Any other suggestions about the maindeck? I'm really liking Lim-Dul's Vault because it seems about 90 percent of the time, when it resolves, I win the following turn.

[Brad Herbig]

It probably looks something like this:


4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island


At least that's what I run.
Close. I have an extra Scalding Tarn in there. I think it is the same manabase emidlin was describing. I think the second Volcanic Island is necessary, not only to support Pulverize, but also another land that you can drop on your combo turn to add red in addition to your basics. Running out of red lands to fetch has been an issue in some Wasteland matchups, so changing the volc for a fetch probably isn't the best idea.

[Grigory]

Hi everyone. I am new to TES and have been experimenting with different lists. I'm wondering if there is any sort of consensus regarding maindeck IGG. It generally seems easier to IT for IGG then to Bwish because many times when I want to wish for it I don't have the IT or another Bwish to recur. Is this infrequent problem worth the extra dmg from ad naus and the dilution of the deck?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Hi everyone. I am new to TES and have been experimenting with different lists. I'm wondering if there is any sort of consensus regarding maindeck IGG. It generally seems easier to IT for IGG then to Bwish because many times when I want to wish for it I don't have the IT or another Bwish to recur. Is this infrequent problem worth the extra dmg from ad naus and the dilution of the deck?

I'd run a second copy of Ad Nauseam before running Ill-Gotten Gains. It may be easier to IT for IGG, but IGG is a bad topdeck and usually something you don't want in your opening hand.

[maxflow2]

Close. I have an extra Scalding Tarn in there. I think it is the same manabase emidlin was describing. I think the second Volcanic Island is necessary, not only to support Pulverize, but also another land that you can drop on your combo turn to add red in addition to your basics. Running out of red lands to fetch has been an issue in some Wasteland matchups, so changing the volc for a fetch probably isn't the best idea.


The manabase is mine. The 3rd mountain is to support Pulverize out of the wishboard because it's the best artifact kill spell available. If you're playing vs a non-Wasteland non-Blue deck, you don't need to turn 1 Thoughtseize. If you're playing against a non-Wasteland Blue deck, you shouldn't be siding out lands anyway.

Running the Volcanic for Pulverize does make sense, though I don't play Pulverize. I've hardly ever had problems with running out of red sources versus Wasteland though. I very rarely need it more than twice and a Lotus Petal is fine on the turn I combo. T1 Duress/Thoughtseize is pretty important in the mirror and versus other combo decks where I would like to side out the land.

[ComboMan]

@RaNDoMxGeSTuReS: -1 watery, +1 city is the way to go by now. But try to take another Sea as soon as possible.

[frogboy]

I played the following at a local tournament for a set of Seas:

2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Duress
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Pulverize
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Dark Confidant

I went 4-1 in the Swiss, won my quarterfinal matchup, lost the semifinals, and lost the 3/4 playoff.

I lost to Merfolk, beat Counterbalance, beat Survival, beat Death and Taxes, beat a GW Haterator deck, beat a different GW haterator deck, lost to Counterbalance, and lost to a Bant aggro deck. My loss to Merfolk was a brick on Diminishing Returns in game two and him drawing Force plus four taxing counters in game three. I punted one of the games against the first Counterbalance player, but I got him anyway.

Against the second Counterbalance player, he snap kept seven, didn't Force my Xantid, and played a Top on one; I thought that meant that he was going to Counterbalance me on two so I moved in on Empty for ten. He had Rhox War Monk. I Wished for Deathmark, which might have been a mistake instead of wishing for Returns and setting that up a couple of turns down the line. He had another War Monk and two Tarmogoyfs, then Progenitus. In the second game, my Brainstorms bricked and I got beat up by War Monk.

I lost to the Bant deck when I kept a Trop double Ponder hand, didn't find a land, and got Wastelanded. In the other game, I went off with AD on turn two and drew literally all bricks. I set up Diminishing Returns on turn three and miniTendrilsed him, and went for a second Ad Nauseam on turn four, bricked again, and died. If I had Grapeshot in the board, I would have won game two, but I favor Deathmark over Grapeshot because it's pretty easy to Wish on two and kill a bear on three for one mana before going off than having to find a second spare piece of mana.

The Gemstone Mines weren't that great and I'm probably going to cut them for Scalding Tarns. I want more ways to shuffle and I don't want my lands going away if I have to take weird Duress lines. I might end up with 4 Delta 3 Tarn 1 Mire, but the basic Island is a lot more important than the basic Swamp. Xantid Swarm was sick. Confidant wasn't that awesome. I think you have to cut Ponder for him in most matchups, and he isn't really that much of an upgrade, especially since I want to be casting Duress on one and killing on two as often as possible against Counterbalance, and if you try to attrition them then they'll just eventually draw a Counterbalance and you'll be kold. It's particularly bad if they have a Top going. The second maindeck Ad Nauseam was pretty good.

[ButtholeMcGhee]

What is GW Haterator?

[Bryant Cook]

Gaddeck Teeg type deck.

[kilukru]

After reading Frogboy report I can only outline one thing : Pyroblast is one of the best sideboard card for this deck. Not only does is counter stuff like CB but it's also an answer to critter like the War Monk or meedling mage. In my oppinion it's one of the must run sideboard cards.

Also went 4-1 in my local tourney in swiss, then faced Zoo in t8, G1 I Ad Nauseam at 18 life and cant find nothing. G2 After a couple Brainstorm and ponder, i still dont have a hand, I do the only thing I can and go DR and nope, no kill there. This is the first time in 3 straight tournament (splited both finals in previous 2) that the deck actully let me down.

[gottfrid]

has anyone tried maindeck swarms, BoP, cabal therapy instead of duress and culling the weak as a 2 of. list looking something like:

4 gemstone mine
1 city of brass
4 polluted delta
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island

4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
2 chrome mox
3 birds of paradise
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
2 culling the weak

1 tendrils of agony
1 ad nauseam
1 empty the warrens
3 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 cabal therapy
1 duress
3 xantid swarm

therapy pros:
You see their hand while most of the time not wasting your way to get rid of FoW on the turn you go off.
You sometimes get to steal multiple cards out of their hand
You can get two counterspells for basically one card if you read your opponent and have the creature
you can get extra storm
you can set up an igg that is safe for one counterspell in the yard without extra mana if you have birds
you can get hatebears t1

Therapy cons:
It's a worse play t1 against unknown opp
You sometimes miss and never get to flashback it
3 is enough cause you run out of creatures to sac if you get 2-3 sometimes.

creatures pros:
Swarm is good on its own merit
Birds is a great t1 play
They allow you to play 2 more quality rituals (at the expense of 4th MD IT and 1 ponder)
Creatures can chumpblock

creatures cons:
They can be killed by removal (but then opp does nothing else on t1/2 and taps a mana)
Birds instead of chrome mox t1 is a less explosive start (but much better t2's)
Birds instead of chrome mox gives worse ad nauseam (but you can float the mana more often)

What are peoples opinions on this?

[Brad Herbig]

After reading Frogboy report I can only outline one thing : Pyroblast is one of the best sideboard card for this deck. Not only does is counter stuff like CB but it's also an answer to critter like the War Monk or meedling mage. In my oppinion it's one of the must run sideboard cards.

I agree with this. I have been running 3 Pyroblast in the board for a while now and they have always been good when I draw them. Against blue, you can not only counter their spells (including Counterbalance) but you also have a better Swords if a blue creature is giving you trouble (my favorite target after an ETW is Rhox War Monk). It is just really versatile and good at countering blue from multiple angles.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Short report. Went 3-1 at the local shop, placing 6th. Same list as above, but switched to Thoughtseizes at the last minute.

Match 1 - The Gate
Game 1. I poop out 12 goblins. They get there.
Game 2. I mull to 5. Ad Nauseam from 20 and it fizzles.
Game 3. I poop out 18 goblins turn 1. Swing and Tendrils for 4 next turn.

1-0
2-1

Match 2 - Burn
Game 1. I have a turn 3 kill. He kills me on his turn 3.
Game 2. He has leyline so I make 12 goblins turn 1 and they get there.
Game 3. He has leyine again. I have the bounce and Ad Nauseam turn 2 for lethal tendrils.

2-0
4-2

Match 3 - Countertop 4c with Dreadnaught
Game 1. He wastes me out of this game.
Game 2. I have turn 1 Thoughtseize and see double Counterbalance and Jace. I take Counterbalance. He tries to cast his second Counterbalance, but I Pyroblast it. He drops a top, which meets my Krosan Grip. He then proceeds to topdeck Wasteland like a pro before locking me out of the game.
-2 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
+2 Krosan Grip
+2 Pyroblast

2-1
4-4

Match 4 - Boros
Game 1. Empty the Warrens gets me there.
Game 2. Turn 2 Ad Nauseam into the nuts.

3-1
6-4

There's a bigger tournament this Sunday. I really like using Thoughtseize because it felt more aggressive, especially against countertop.

[Autotron]

Would Orim's Chant have been worse? I feel like Chant is a much more versatile card, sometimes being agressive, sometimes defensive, especially with all the Madness decks running around. Are people that don't like Orim's Chant not considering all the lines of play the card offers? Against the Burn deck it's possible Chant would've got you there.

I don't like taking out Chrome Mox against any deck with Wastelands.

[kilukru]

I think almost everyone agree on main deck list within 1 or 2 cards, either Bryant Cook 5c list or emidln 3c. But from what I’ve been seeing peoples really have a hard time with sideboard, so I give you my TES sideboard cards analysis (yeah I had some free time). Hope it help some of you.

Cards will be analysed in their respective categories: Win con, toolbox, sidable

Win Con :
Ill-Gotten Gain :This card will give you easy win against non-blue decks and after Chanting ors Swarming, this card allow for very counter-intuitive wins learn to master it, it will steal you some game. Be careful when you low on life, always check opponent graveyard for bolt or other direct damage spell, they can be tricky. Also usable as a way to empty an opponent hand, this won’t happen often but it served me before.
Should it be in your sideboard(will be abbreviated Sibiys from now on) : Yes, too many easy win
Diminishing Returns : Pretty complete analysis of this card was posted a couple pages back, read it, understand it, this is another card you must master to have great success with the deck, this is your ultimate Plan B for a win and also a great reset button when things aren’t going your way. One thing I really must stress about this card, Casting DR doesn’t mean you have to win this turn, having a new hand is a good thing.
Sibiys : Yes, when all else fails DR
Infernal Tutor :Allow to chain tutor for greater storm, allow to Ad Nauseam via Burning wish
Sibiys : I don’t think so, you should start G1 with all 4 maindeck and if you feel you need one in the side, side one out for G2-G3. Having all 4 main give you the bests chance G1 when facing an unknown opponent
Tendrils of Agony : Wishable tendril FTW
Sibiys : Take a guess
Empty the warrens : Wishable Warren also FTW
Sibiys : Guess again

Toolbox :
Grapeshot : This card do a lot of thing, take care of hate bear, win you some time, it even kill opponents! This is another ‘’learn to master’’ card, at first it seem underwhelming, but as you play with it it just get better and better.
Sibiys : Yep
Thoughtseize : Wishable disruption, really good in G1 against blue decks, useful G2 and can be boarded in in a some matchup.
Sibiys : Not a must have, but in a blue heavy or unknown meta it’s a great choice
Shattering Spree : This is the perfect example of a card you won’t wish for for a long time time but when you need it, it really do the job. With enough mana, this one is unstoppable.
Sibiys : Probably, if you know your meta well, ask yourself, is there a lot of chalice and 3 sphere around, this will answer if you run it or not. Also, are you running k-grip? Most chalice come in G2 so you can manage them with Grip and bounce. In an unknown meta, another great card.
Eye of nowhere : A random solution to random problems. G1 hate bear?, Leyline?, T2 Dark Depth Hexmage?, this card will give you random wins here and there
Sibiys : I really like this cardm ,my meta is ever changing and I really can expect anything, so this one was really good for me
Deatmark : Probably the best Hate bear killer. Don’t fool yourself, it won’t kill Iona, they will have either named black or red, so no.
Sibiys : Yes and no, it’s really good at what it does, but most of the time grapeshop or Eye of Nowhere will also do the job.
Telemin Performance : Win the mirror, CB-Top G1(Meedling mage iss in most sideboard), landstill.
Sibiys : Not really, really narrow ,it will steal a game here and there but the quality of most TES sideboard cards are either taking care of a real problem or versatility, this one answer none.
Pulverise : Take two mountain to cast, but really effective when usable.
Sibiys : Simply put, this isn’t the deck to run this card, so no
Pyroclasm : Another hate bears killer, and something board cleaner
Sibiys : No, other bear killer are superior, grapeshot is more versatile and deathmark is mana friendly. Also if you in a situation that you need the board cleaned and cannot win, chance are your are loosing anyway.

Sidable
Pyroblast : First, pyro over REB because Pyro can target any permanent, even if they are not blue, so you can cast it to empty your hand for an infernal Tutor. This is one of the best sideboard card,, it counter all the most annoying spells this deck must face and act as a removal for Meedling mage and Rhox War Monk who are both mortal enemies.
Sibiys : YES and more than one time, I would suggest 3
Krosan Grip : Once Counterbalance is on the board this card is your best solution. Also take out chalice and 3-sphere and other annoying enchantment and artefacts.
Sibiys : Either run 2-3 or go the bounce plan. I found that 1 is really random. It’s a good card I would suggest 2
Chain of vapour : A 1 mana bounce work well. To truly understand why bounce are critical in the board you must understand that in some match, you got stuff to side out but nothing to side in like a lot of rock variant, you know that ETW must go out and you want a IT side but you got nothing good to side in against them, that’s where bounce come in. Also the best solution against hate bears.
Echoing truth : Good against counters
Wipe away : Good against counterbalance, if you don’t run grip this one get better
Sibiys : You got to have at least 2 bounce in your side, Chain is one of the possibility, Echoing truth and wipe away also have their value
Xantid Swarm : The miracle bug, he’s been covered again and again in this thread so read
Sibiys : Do you run Chant effect in your list? If yes then don’t run the bug, if no, run the bug
Dark Confidant : Great on paper, not so great on the field, it just doesn’t do enough quickly enough to be any good, underwhelming at best
Sibiys : Nope

[emidln]

Pretty much everyone except you agrees that Infernal Tutor should be a 4-of in the maindeck. That's one of the sticking points that Bryant, myself, and seemingly every t8 list agree on.

[maxflow2]

Pretty much everyone except you agrees that Infernal Tutor should be a 4-of in the maindeck. That's one of the sticking points that Bryant, myself, and seemingly every t8 list agree on.

That's why he said it shouldn't be in your sideboard?

Regarding the sideboard, I sometimes have difficulty figuring out what to side out. It's usually some combination of Infernal Tutor, Chrome Mox, Ponder, or Empty the Warrens, but against blue decks with Wastelands where I want Pyroblasts, bounce, Chrome Mox, and Empty the Warrens (such as Dreadstill), I have trouble making room. I've considered siding out Rite of Flame and Tendrils, but both of those seem like poor options. What are other people's plans?

[Bryant Cook]

Pretty much everyone except you agrees that Infernal Tutor should be a 4-of in the maindeck. That's one of the sticking points that Bryant, myself, and seemingly every t8 list agree on.

Oh? I forgot I was still apart of this thread and all. It seems like the decklists are becoming something else.

Anyway, that was a good description/break down of the sideboard.


Would Orim's Chant have been worse? I feel like Chant is a much more versatile card, sometimes being agressive, sometimes defensive, especially with all the Madness decks running around. Are people that don't like Orim's Chant not considering all the lines of play the card offers? Against the Burn deck it's possible Chant would've got you there.

I don't like taking out Chrome Mox against any deck with Wastelands.

A lot of people don't think like this. Orim's Chant on it's own got me to the top 8 of the Grand Prix, but for some reason people forget that. It won me round 15, then won both of my Sneak Attack match-ups. Not to mention, being all around awesome.

[Doomsday]

Infernal Tutor is a bomb in the sideboard, is there really any kind of consenus that you need 4 maindeck? It goes without saying that you have less chance of a natural draw with 3, but it makes all 4 of your Burning Wishes much stronger. Instead of needing either 2 Burning Wish or 1 Wish and 1 IT in hand or yard, you just need 1 Wish.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Totally off topic, but my second Underground Sea is on the way :D

Props to being optimal.

I'll still be rocking City of Brass #3 on Sunday though :(

[maxflow2]

Totally off topic, but my second Underground Sea is on the way :D

Props to being optimal.

I'll still be rocking City of Brass #3 on Sunday though :(

If you happen to own a Tundra, you might consider that as well as it might be better than the third city. Some people even prefer it over the second city.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

The best sub I have is the City of Brass, maybe I'll get lucky and the Underground Sea will arrive Saturday.

All I know is that I'll be doing more obsessive goldfishing and playtesting versus Countertop and Merfolk.

[median]

So I’ve been a believer in the infernal tutor in the sideboard for a long time, I’ve found that I always seem to get a hand with a burning wish and gas that I want to make into tendrils at least once per tournament so I did some math in excel. Here’s the numbers.


4 infernal tutors in deck

33.6280% 1 infernal drawn, 4 in deck, 7 card hand, 60 card deck

5.9344% 2 infernal drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 card deck

0.3804% 3 drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 cards

0.0072% 4 drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 cards

= 39.95% chance of drawing total


3 in deck

28.1882% 1 drawn 3 in deck 7 card hand 60 card deck

3.2525% 2 drawn 3 in deck 7 cards 60 card deck

0.1023% 3 drawn 3 in deck 7 cards 60 card deck

Total chance 31.5430%

Historically the chances of diminishing returns working are about 70% (about 30% chance of failure)
I doubt the chances of me getting one burning wish and tons of gas are at 30% when compared to diminishing returns. Add to that I would be losing out on the 8% chance of drawing an infernal. I’m now a firm believer in four infernals main.

Hope this helps.

[Bryant Cook]

So I’ve been a believer in the infernal tutor in the sideboard for a long time, I’ve found that I always seem to get a hand with a burning wish and gas that I want to make into tendrils at least once per tournament so I did some math in excel. Here’s the numbers.


4 infernal tutors in deck

33.6280% 1 infernal drawn, 4 in deck, 7 card hand, 60 card deck

5.9344% 2 infernal drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 card deck

0.3804% 3 drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 cards

0.0072% 4 drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 cards

= 39.95% chance of drawing total


3 in deck

28.1882% 1 drawn 3 in deck 7 card hand 60 card deck

3.2525% 2 drawn 3 in deck 7 cards 60 card deck

0.1023% 3 drawn 3 in deck 7 cards 60 card deck

Total chance 31.5430%

Historically the chances of diminishing returns working are about 70% (about 30% chance of failure)
I doubt the chances of me getting one burning wish and tons of gas are at 30% when compared to diminishing returns. Add to that I would be losing out on the 8% chance of drawing an infernal. I’m now a firm believer in four infernals main.

Hope this helps.

This is good data. I'll be adding it to page one.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Question for you folks, couldn't find it in the thread. The single Shattering Spree in the board - do we just wish for it now or do we board it in?

Or does it depend..

Thanks.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've never boarded it in unless I was running two.

--ABC

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

That's what I was thinking, too. Thanks :)

I'm taking this to a tournament tonight.

I'll have a report later.

[Tivon]

Question for you folks, couldn't find it in the thread. The single Shattering Spree in the board - do we just wish for it now or do we board it in?

Or does it depend..

Thanks.

You leave it in the board and wish for it. You have the bounce in the side board that you can bring in as a way to hate out artifacts post board

[mistervader]

Hey, guys. Long-time Aeon Bridge player, first-time TES player, so I still haven't gotten a full feel for the deck.

Came in at 9th, and note that my 75 is card for card the same as the list on the first page, except one REB replaced one Pyroblast. Which was a big mistake.

Matchups were: Faerie Stompy (Loss), Mono-Black control (Win), Bant (Loss), Countertop Bant (Win), Survival Retainers (Win), and Dredge (Win).

I did not run into Zoo or Merfolk, but I still wished that I had Xantids in my deck somewhere, and maybe a Doomsday plan in the board for Game 2.

I've been combing through the thread, and so far, I haven't found any Doomsday board lists. Is there anyone who has tried it, and if so, how has it been? I really want to give it a shot because I feel that against Countertop decks, that's the better choice than REB, and Xantid should deal with Merfolk and the like.

ROUND 1 (0-1) versus Neil (Faerie Stompy)

Game 1 was my first ever game playing the deck, and I was clearly showing my lack of experience. I chanted TWICE without having any relevant combo to win with, and only after Duress on turn 5 or so did I actually manage to cough up 10 tokens from ETW to win with.

Sided in some hate, then Game 2 came, and I went for the jugular on turn 3 with another ETW for 12. Unfortunately, he had firespout. He beat me with a Faerie and a 5/5 Faerie named Tombstalker.

Game 3, I was just completely controlled up the wazoo. Counters, faeries, Wastelands, you name it, he had it. It was an uphill battle, and I never had a chance.

ROUND 2 (1-1) versus (Mono-Black Control)

The guy's name slipped my mind, but he ran a black deck that frustrated the heck out of me.

Game 1, I lost to beats, Cabal Therapies, and more beats. It wasn't pretty.

Game 2, I lost Infernal Tutor to Extirpate, and then he even hit me with that pitch spell that makes me lose 4 and he gains 4. Twice. Despite that, I Ad Naus into goodness and win via a pinpoint-precision 28-life Tendrils of Agony.

Game 3, I managed to Ad Nauseam into goodness.

ROUND 3 (1-2) versus Paulo (Tempo Thresh or something)

Game 1, I managed to storm him out via Empty The Warrens.

Game 2, I found myself dead to Goyfs and Pridemages. And, oh, going for the jugular with a first-turn combo that was met with FOW. And, oh. I LED'd my hand away to pull it off.

Game 3, Two Goyfs had me at ten life, but they were 3/4's. Then he topdecks a Pridemage, destroys his own Jitte, and the 3/4's became 5/6's. That was game.

ROUND 4 (2-2) versus Ryan Payabyab (NO Countertop Bant)

Game 1, I storm out for exactly ten via some cantrip and Chant and Wish shenanigans. It was a pretty tight play.

Game 2, I did that first-turn combo out thing again, and promptly got FOW'd. With no cards in hand, I was a sitting duck. I then got locked out by Counterbalance and beating Goyfs by turn 2. No Top, but CB revealed FOW on top, and my only bomb in hand was Ad Naus. Fail.

Game 3, I managed to Ad Naus into goodness after Gripping his CB. That was all she wrote from there.

ROUND 5 (3-2), versus Redmond (Survival Retainers)

Game 1, Goblin tokens overrun his defenders.

Game 2, Ad Nauseam dismantles him.

ROUND 6 (4-2), versus Marco (Dredge)

Game 1, I cough up 12 tokens and overrun him. Zombies are bigger than Goblins, but they were fewer. Much, much fewer.

Game 2, I play Petal, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam. I'm down to 14, and I reveal the following in no particular order: LED, ETW, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox, Duress, Lotus Petal, Rite Of Flame, Duress. I play Petal, LED, Dark Ritual, Rite Of Flame, Burning Wish, Tendrils for exactly ten storm.

Finished in 9th. Not bad, considering this is the first time I ever ran the bloody deck.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Short report. I partcipated in a 10 person tournament tonight and made Top 4. I took Bryant's 75 for a spin with Deathmark in the Eye of Nowhere slot.

Match 1 - Mono Blue Merfolk
Game 1 - I win the die roll and plop out 12 goblin tokens. He has enough Mutavaults and fish to race me.
Game 2 - I mull to 6 and he has an answer for every card I play.

0-1
0-2

+3 Pyroblast
-1 Ponder
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Chrome Mox

Match 2 - 4c Countertop
Game 1 - I win the die roll and "tempt fate." He has Force of Will.
Game 2 -Ad Nauseam protected by Pyroblast. I stop at 1 life and Empty the Warrens for 24 tokens. 12 of them block a Dreadnaught, and I kill him two turns later.
Game 3 - He gets countertop online, but I have Krosan Grip sitting in my hand. I wait until I topdeck a third mana source, then blow it up at the end of his turn. Ad Nauseam into lethal tendrils.

+3 Pyroblast
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Krosan Grip
-1 Silence
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder
-1 Brainstorm

1-1
2-3

Match 3 - Mono Red Goblins
Game 1 - Turn 1 Empty the Warrens for 18 tokens. They get there.
Game 2 - I keep a zero land hand with something like Petal, Petal, LED, Infernal Tutor. The guy wonders why I haven't played a land for three turns. I Duress him and see nothing relevant. I kill him with lethal tendrils on turn 4.

+1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Echoing Truth
-1 Ponder
-1 Brainstorm

2-1
4-3

Match 4 - Bye, cut to Top 4

Semifinals - Burn
Game 1 - I mullligan to 6. I Brainstorm into shit, but have a turn 4 kill. He gets me turn 3.
Game 2 - Pretty sure I punted this, but I go all in on Empty the Warrens for 12 turn 1. He has Mindbreak Trap. Should have I waited on this? I could have Pondered on turn 1.

+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Chain of Vapor
-1 Ponder
-1 Brainstorm

Props
Orim's Chant being an allstar
Krosan Grip for having split-second
Empty the Warrens because I got to scream, "I"M PLAYING A GOBLIN MIRROR MATCH!" in the gameshop...

Slops
No prize for 4th place
Mindbreak Trap
Getting my ass kicked by burn in nearly every Legacy tournament I play in

[Jim Higginbottom]

I ended up 5-2 at Vestal this weekend for 20th. I was 5-1 going into round 7 but I couldn't draw.

[egosum]

Last Sunday 10th of October 2 TES decks made top 8 in the eternal weekend event in Alcobendas (Madrid, Spain), with an assistance of 293 players.

Alex del Valle - 3 color T.E.S.
Iñaki Puigdollers - 5 color T.E.S.

Very Brief report (actually just the pairings and results)

R1-Vengevie UG madness 1-0-0
R2-Naya Zoo 2-0-0
R3-Merfolk U 3-0-0
R4-Burn 4-0-0
R5-Naya Zoo (Splashing tropical island for Meddling Mage) 5-0-0
R6-Survival Elves RG (Magus and blood moon tech) 6-0-0
R7-BUG Threshold 6-0-1
R8-Merfolks UB (Saito) 7-0-1
R9-Vengevine WG (Intentional draw) 7-1-1

Ended 5th in the swiss rounds.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S.

link to the official coverage (in spanish): http://launiversidaddelasartesludicas.blogspot.com/2010/10/live-coverage-eternal-weekend-2010_10.html

lnik to the non-official coverage (in english): http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=910

[rocketrae21]

one REB replaced one Pyroblast. Which was a big mistake.

Why was this a mistake?

[AriLax]

Why was this a mistake?

The situation where you want to cast an excess Pyroblast for Storm is much more likely than you wanting to not be Misdirected.

It's also a joke.

[mistervader]

Why was this a mistake?

Well, I had the following cards in my hand in one particular game against Dredge:

1 REB
1 Dark Ritual
1 Rite Of Flame
1 Infernal Tutor

I had mana to cast all the relevant spells, get hellbent, and then cast Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam @19 life against Dredge. *Except* I was holding REB, not Pyroblast.

Of course, I lucksacked like a mofo and topdecked an LED the next turn, but hey, them's the breaks.

In other news, changes I really feel compelled to make for the deck...

Assuming I don't change my board, -1 City of Brass, +1 Tundra. This is because I would really like to fetch W at the drop of a hat for chanting purposes.

Assuming I do change my board, I'm tempted to go -2 CoB, +1 Tundra, +1 Tropical Island. However, even I can tell that's not terribly exciting and could cause more problems than it could solve.

As for the changes I wanna make in the board, I *really* want to keep Blasts, but I also want to have 2-3 Xantid Swarm in the side against Merfolk. Bant, Vengevine Survival, Merfolk, and Zoo are the four most common placing decks in my meta, and Swarm can help me with all four (Although admittedly on a marginal level against Zoo.), while Blast is *very* important against Counterbalance. If only I could ignore the CB matchup, but alack and alas, while there are more Merfolk decks in my meta, Bant is still a force to be reckoned with.

Or is it a Blast only/ Xantid only choice I have to make? I understand their functions overlap, but Pyroblast isn't as strong against Merfolk as Xantid is, and historically, that's the deck I'm more worried about in my meta.

For the record, I have not yet wished for Eye of Nowhere from the board, and Thoughtseize feels marginal as a Wish target, although I did run that play once in the first round when I was still getting a feel for the deck.

Any tips regarding the Xantid vs Pyroblast issue would be great. Sideboarding has always been my weakest suit in MTG.

[maxflow2]

I had mana to cast all the relevant spells, get hellbent, and then cast Infernal Tutor for Ad Nauseam @19 life against Dredge. *Except* I was holding REB, not Pyroblast.


Yeah, this is really the main reason to run Pyroblast over REB and I've actually had it come up quite often.



Or is it a Blast only/ Xantid only choice I have to make? I understand their functions overlap, but Pyroblast isn't as strong against Merfolk as Xantid is, and historically, that's the deck I'm more worried about in my meta.

For the record, I have not yet wished for Eye of Nowhere from the board, and Thoughtseize feels marginal as a Wish target, although I did run that play once in the first round when I was still getting a feel for the deck.

Any tips regarding the Xantid vs Pyroblast issue would be great. Sideboarding has always been my weakest suit in MTG.

I actually find myself wishing for Thoughtseize quite often, so I'm not sure I would take that out. You could try Hull Breach as an alternative to Eye of Nowhere - it's mainly your answer to problematic enchantments like Leyline of Sanctity and nonsense like Pyrostatic Pillar.

I think the deck is too pressed for sideboard space to consider both options, but I could see and 3/2 split of them cutting some of the more marginal cards like Krosan Grip and Eye of Nowhere. It's really a metagame question of how much Counterbalance versus Merfolk/UG Madness you expect to see. The deck struggles against Counterbalance more than the other two, so if I didn't expect much of it at all, I would cut the blasts and maybe the Krosan Grip for Swarms and just hope to dodge it. Swarm is not particularly good against Bant, though. As for the manabase, you could possibly cut a Chrome Mox for a Tropical Island.

[Bryant Cook]

Last Sunday 10th of October 2 TES decks made top 8 in the eternal weekend event in Alcobendas (Madrid, Spain), with an assistance of 293 players.

Alex del Valle - 3 color T.E.S.
Iñaki Puigdollers - 5 color T.E.S.


Greetings,

Iñaki.-

I'm looking forward to a more indepth report.

[median]

In other news, changes I really feel compelled to make for the deck...

Assuming I don't change my board, -1 City of Brass, +1 Tundra. This is because I would really like to fetch W at the drop of a hat for chanting purposes.

Assuming I do change my board, I'm tempted to go -2 CoB, +1 Tundra, +1 Tropical Island. However, even I can tell that's not terribly exciting and could cause more problems than it could solve.

As for the changes I wanna make in the board, I *really* want to keep Blasts, but I also want to have 2-3 Xantid Swarm in the side against Merfolk. Bant, Vengevine Survival, Merfolk, and Zoo are the four most common placing decks in my meta, and Swarm can help me with all four (Although admittedly on a marginal level against Zoo.), while Blast is *very* important against Counterbalance. If only I could ignore the CB matchup, but alack and alas, while there are more Merfolk decks in my meta, Bant is still a force to be reckoned with.

I'm dealing with this right now myself.

the way i'm doing it is with this main,
1 silence
2 chant
1 pyroblast

And this in the side:


//side
1 flex slot
1 tropical island
3 xantid swarm
2 pyroblast
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 ill-gotten gains
1 eye of nowhere
1 shattering spree
1 diminishing returns
1 echoing truth
1 grapeshot

my boarding is pretty simple
counterbalance +2 pyroblast +1 e-truth
- 3 chant effects
against merfolk - 3 chant effects, +3 xantid swarm,
-1 city + 1 tropical

This lets me have xantid and pyroblast open to me as well as most wish targets, if I wanted to I could board in both pyroblast and xantid, and Echoing truth. I have no Idea what I would want that for. From my own personal experience Xantid swarm is better, but it really sucks when it gets STPed in the bant match, The way I have things set up now give me a lot of flexibility and some maindeck hate.

[frogboy]

How are most people boarding against Counterbalance? I can only really find room for about ten, maybe eleven protection spells; the only cards I really want to cut are a Ponder and a Mox and like I'm not even really that happy when I board out either of those.

[Tinefol]

5c TES made it to top8 in recent Topdeck.ru Open (biggest russian legacy tournament ever) with 93 players. Decklist is fairly common afaik.

[egosum]

Bryant Here you have the report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19049-Top-8-T-E-S-Eternal-Weekend-Spain&p=494192).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[median]

How are most people boarding against Counterbalance? I can only really find room for about ten, maybe eleven protection spells; the only cards I really want to cut are a Ponder and a Mox and like I'm not even really that happy when I board out either of those.

I generally have 4+ pieces of Counterbalance hate. I normally swap out chants for pyroblast, but if I'm worried I'll cut a ponder and keep one in, if it's a deck that doesn't play wasteland, I'll cut a chrome mox for a chant effect. I never side out I'll-gotten gains against counterbalance because I don't have it main. If I did it would come out as I see it as a liability in this match.

That's my own personal strategy.

[DerFern]

I never side out I'll-gotten gains against counterbalance because I don't have it main.
yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense...

[Zunam]

I've been testing matchups with TES a lot lately, using Bryant's GP list.

Especially against the blue decks (Supreme Blue, Merfolk, UG-Vengevine-Survival) because they are beeing played heavily in my region currently.

While I have:

-a quite positive result versus UG Vengevine-Survival (3:7 preboard and 4:6 postboard in TES's favour)

-and quite good results versus Supreme Blue (5:5 pre -and postboard; almost only losing when they manage to get an early Counterbalance into play)

-I have major problems versus Merfok (6:4 preboard and 7:3 postboard in merfolk's favour).

For the merfolk matchup I was using Saito's UB list. Since I was reading a lot about merfolk being a good matchup (better than the counterbalance matchup) I wanted to ask for some tips.
Granted I am not the most experienced TES-player (or Storm-Combo in general) I have some experience with playing TES (the older Draw-4 lists), ANT and a bit of DDFT.

My major problems in the matchup are:

-Their Daze-effects (Daze, Cursecatcher, Spell Pierce) combined with their Wastelands became a huge threat. I am often one mana short of going off, especially if they have multiple of those effects. Waiting for more accelerations is often no option because of their clock and possibility to draw more Wastelands.

-The first issue often leads to situations where I have to go off without being able to play enough protection running into their FoWs.

-FoW is almost always active (which means it's easy to get second blue card into hand to actually be able to cast FoW). Standstill with an active clock helps them a lot, too.

-It's hard to predict what they might have in their hand. Not the best example because it doesn't involve the information you can draw out of the game's progress but basically a single blue land and a hand of 4 cards could basically mean that they are able to play Spell Pierce, Daze and Force of Will altogether easily.

Does anyone with more experience have any tips for me?

Is it better to go "All In" after a protection spell gets countered (I do this a lot against Counterbalance decks, because it feels easier to predict what they have in their hand for me). I tend to play more defensive against Merfolk.

Thanks in Advance

(I have also tried Xantid Swarm which is quite good against Merfolk. Of course the Black-Splash list has ways to handle my swarms more easily than mono-blue lists. But in general Xantid Swarm feels just not good enough in other matchups)

[lorddotm]

Lots o' Stuff.

I always like going for Empty the Warrens in the match. Preemptively Wishing for it helps a lot. I've never had a bunch of trouble doing that, If you have a lot of Rituals in your hand and aren't depending on LED to win. Try it out, I've had quite a bit of success with this strategy.

[maxflow2]

I always like going for Empty the Warrens in the match. Preemptively Wishing for it helps a lot. I've never had a bunch of trouble doing that, If you have a lot of Rituals in your hand and aren't depending on LED to win. Try it out, I've had quite a bit of success with this strategy.

Yeah, I'll do that too. They often don't counter the Burning Wish when we don't have mana for whatever reason, thinking we're just going to get Thoughtseize. EtW can usually outrace them - Pyroblast killing a lord can help a lot, forcing their Silvergill Adepts and Cursecatchers to trade with your goblins. Another common play that I find helpful is a preemptive Infernal Tutor for a Lion's Eye Diamond or ritual, especially after ripping a FoW out of their hand. With FoW being their only hard counter, often all you need is extra mana to pay for their taxing counters. If your protection spell gets countered, it depends a lot on the situation whether you should go for it or not. If it gets countered by FoW and you have an extra mana or two, then I think you should usually go for it (depending on cards in hand, Cursecatchers on board, of course), but you otherwise probably want some knowledge of their hand first.

This matchup gets a lot better, I think, if you're either playing Xantid Swarms or playing a 3 color list with basics. I don't understand why so many players seem to think this matchup is positive without either of those - I, for one, have not figured out the secret. I think it may be because Merfolk is such a popular deck so there are so many subpar Merfolk players and Merfolk lists running around. That, and it just seems like there's a natural tendency for everyone to underestimate Merfolk (myself included).

[lorddotm]

@maxflow2: Merfolk player usually don't understand what to do against us. Also, it seems like going for a fast win, even when you don't know what they have, it optimal. There is only a 40% chance of them having a Force on turn 1, so going for the turn 1 win is usually correct because you do not have a 60% win chance. But if you have a turn 2 win with protection, obviously that is better. Against blue it is about picking your moments when to go off

I looked back in the thread, and it seems like this list went completely unnoticed.

Milan (Ovino 5) 11.09.2010
- 347 players
3. Federico Bonadè

Maindeck (60):
Spells (45):
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Rite of Flame
3 Orim's Chant

Lands (15):
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island


Sideboard (15):
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Flame Slash
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize


The fact is has two Ad Nauseam, Iggy main, no EtW main, 15 lands. As well as having a 3/1 split between main and board on IT. The list looks very suboptimal, but it did well in a large event...


Any opinions on this?

[Zunam]

Thank's for the tips on the Merfolk matchup.

I tried going the EtW route (getting EtW into my hand before going off) more often and it worked out well. I guess I was a bit too anxious using EtW in this matchup but it seems that they more often can't handle the tokens than they can summon a big enough army of blockers in time.

Running a 3 colour list as suggested might also be an option if the Meta is full of Merfolk.

[Seretur]

@lorddotm: hi, i'm the guy from italy who played the deck at that event :)


A premise: before june bannigs i was a ANT player (i finish 15th at GP Madrid losing the last turn of swiss) and went to TES in my search for a viable post mystical ban storm deck. So my style of play with this deck is closer to ANT or fetchland tendrils than pre Ad Nauseam TES.

I basically pick Cook's list and made some little changes to fit my game style and italian metagame:

+1 AN -1 ETW because 5 dmg or 4 dmg don't make so much difference while resolving AN and i'm always happier to draw AN than EtW. In my opinion 1 EtW in sideboard is enough to kill my opponent with goblins.

-1 mox -1 orim +2 Lands I really *hate* losing for mana screw... in Italy prison and tempo deck are always big forces in the meta so i choose to have a little more solid mana base.

-1 Infernal Tutor +1 Iggy : being a iggy player before becoming a ANT player (and now a TES player) i just can't play without this little friend maindeck. I understand the deck can work even without it but i simply feel safer with 2 iggy among maindeck and sideboard.


And sorry for my english .. that is very suboptimal :p

[maxflow2]

stuff


I saw your list on Morphling earlier. I happen to be a fan of maindeck Iggy as well (though I disagree with removing Infernal) - it just cements the matchup against aggro so much and it isn't half bad G1 against blue either when they don't know what you're playing. Even though you only really want it in your best matchups, I feel the percentage gained there is large enough to justify having it maindeck (though it is difficult to fit).

You mention that the 5 cmc of AN over EtW isn't a big deal - but combined with the 4 cmc of Iggy over Infernal, it kinda is, though. This is further accentuated by the removal of a Chrome Mox - I'm curious if you've had any trouble fizzling after AN with no mana/land drops remaining.

[egosum]

This is the link to the report (http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3007&start=0) of the other TES player that made top 8 at Eternal Weekend, it' s written in spanish.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[lorddotm]

This is the link to the report (http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3007&start=0) of the other TES player that made top 8 at Eternal Weekend, it' s written in spanish.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

/ / Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Look
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Badlands

/ / Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [AER] Duress
1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [U.S.] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

/ / Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [U.S.] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [PT] Symbol of Unsummoning
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant


That is his list. How does this beat blue?

[emidln]

You hold back Duress effects until you actually need them. It's a lesson that a lot of TES players could learn, even the ones that run Chants or a lot of Thoughtseize.

[kilukru]

It's the number 1 advice I always gie to new TES player : it's not because you can go fast that your must be in a hurry.

Evaluate the game state, evaluate your possibilities, make a decision

[kiwi]

I have a doubt, When you have a duress in your hand and you are playing vs blue, what's better?

a) Waiting the turn that you are going to play the combo

b) Playing duress when you can (for example in your fist turn but your opponent has a tropical island in play and you are going to play ad nauseam later)

If you play dures one turn before playing ad naseam or some tutor your opponnent can put the counters on top of his library with brainstorm, but If we dont play duress fast may be that he plays a counterbalance. When is the correct moment for playing duress vs blue dcks?

[x8eikdls]

I have a doubt, When you have a duress in your hand and you are playing vs blue, what's better?

a) Waiting the turn that you are going to play the combo

b) Playing duress when you can (for example in your fist turn but your opponent has a tropical island in play and you are going to play ad nauseam later)

If you play dures one turn before playing ad naseam or some tutor your opponnent can put the counters on top of his library with brainstorm, but If we dont play duress fast may be that he plays a counterbalance. When is the correct moment for playing duress vs blue dcks?

Depends on the blue deck. If you don't have an answer to a resolved Counterbalance in your hand, Duress ASAP to try to nab it. If they don't play Counterbalance, you don't need to Duress right away. Duressing turn 1 isn't the greatest when you don't plan to go off for another few turns.

Look at your hand and figure out how you plan to go off. Duressing the turn you plan to go off is obviously the most optimal. If you have enough mana, do it. If you're forced to go off next turn (say lethal on board vs Fish), but don't have the mana to cast Duress + Returns or something in the same turn, Duress the turn before.

I rarely use Duress on turn 1 vs. non-CB blue decks if I don't plan on winning turn 2. Even letting Standstill resolve isn't a big deal. Playing draw-go and breaking it EOT with a Brainstorm the turn before you go off is generally fine.

[frogboy]

I've been considering a Simplify or Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard to beat rawdog Counterbalance. If they just have Counterbalance, it's usually not the end of the world, but it can buy them enough time to find Brainstorm/Top/Jace which are all pretty hard to beat.

[emidln]

I've been considering a Simplify or Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard to beat rawdog Counterbalance. If they just have Counterbalance, it's usually not the end of the world, but it can buy them enough time to find Brainstorm/Top/Jace which are all pretty hard to beat.

As long as you're not on MTGO, you probably prefer Rev Silence.

[AriLax]

I have a doubt, When you have a duress in your hand and you are playing vs blue, what's better?

a) Waiting the turn that you are going to play the combo

b) Playing duress when you can (for example in your fist turn but your opponent has a tropical island in play and you are going to play ad nauseam later)

If you play dures one turn before playing ad naseam or some tutor your opponnent can put the counters on top of his library with brainstorm, but If we dont play duress fast may be that he plays a counterbalance. When is the correct moment for playing duress vs blue dcks?

I usually try to do it the turn I will combo or the turn before if it fits that way. Against Merfolk I tend to do it the turn before because A) they don't have good card draw to dig for the counter once I hit one and B) I like to protect my Duresses from Daze/Spell Pierces as knowing what taxing counters they have is almost as good as them not having them.

[OurSerratedDust]

Quick question guys. I have a 3c TES list with Xantid Swarms in the side and Thoughseizes main. In this case, is it better to have my green dual(s) in the sideboard or in the main? On one hand, you end up losing valuable SB slots, but on the other hand, having additional duals in the main weakens your manabase (and having a solid manabase is one of the stronger points of 3c TES.)

What do you think about this? I had seen a couple lists on this thread with a land or two in the side, so I figured it wasn't out of the question.

Thanks guys.

[frogboy]

With fourteen lands, I'd maindeck the Tropical Island. With thirteen lands, I'd add a Tropical Island.

I'm a pretty big fan of the

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
x duals

manabase.

[AriLax]

If you have Burning Wish I can't imagine cutting a board slot for a land. It's like losing a 4 of utility card.

[median]

If you have Burning Wish I can't imagine cutting a board slot for a land. It's like losing a 4 of utility card.
The thing about that is I have shattering spree in for dragon stumpy and angel staxx, and I sometimes wonder if they exist. I have eye of nowhere for fringe cases that never show up. If I could find more corner cases to run wish targets for then I would have stuff that gets used less than once every two to four tournaments. The trop will get used a lot, and thirteen is the right number of lands main to not die to diminishing returns, that wins about 15% of my games. ( the rest being warrens ad nauseam and iggy)

[emidln]

I won 11 packs going 11-0 in the 2 man mtgo legacy queues today with a list almost identical to the one max posted in his article this week. (i had confidants over pyroblast) I played against mostly merfolk, gw survival, and dnt.of the 3 games I lost 2 wee failed dreturns and another was a mull to oblivion. Don't really have much to complain about that can be fixed (luck). Legacy queues are now paying out in scars so ill be playing more legacy for packs.

[OurSerratedDust]

I liked frogboy's list a lot, but isn't Pulverize hard to support with only two mountains?

[emidln]

I liked frogboy's list a lot, but isn't Pulverize hard to support with only two mountains?

MTGO doesn't have Pulverize. I run Meltdown and Meltdown is fine. To support Pulverize, you probably want 3 mountains since the first one sometimes gets wasted getting the Pulverize via Wish.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I won 11 packs going 11-0 in the 2 man mtgo legacy queues today with a list almost identical to the one max posted in his article this week. (i had confidants over pyroblast) I played against mostly merfolk, gw survival, and dnt.of the 3 games I lost 2 wee failed dreturns and another was a mull to oblivion. Don't really have much to complain about that can be fixed (luck). Legacy queues are now paying out in scars so ill be playing more legacy for packs.

I have been playing almost that exact list except I am playing -4 Swarm and +3 Silence and +1 IGG in the main. I also don't play the 4th IT in the main as well as a slightly different manabase. This is clearly a topic no one will ever agree on but I just really prefer it in the wishboard. Swarm in the main is REALLY good, but it makes your combo mirrors way worse. I have really been feeling chant effects in TES latey as well as Oust in the wishboard. Oust is totally sick, its: W, sorcery, Put target creature into it's owner's library 2 from the top and they gain 3 life. The card is so sick since we finally have something that answers Iona, Teeg, and Cannonist that ISN'T black. Its a very cool card.

[dahcmai]

So how bad it is to use Thoughtseize instead of Duress in the main? I ran into a Faeries deck today that destroyed me due to the fact I would Duress them and see things like Spellstutter Sprite, Glen Elendra Archmage, and Vedellion Clique, then I was sad when I put my Duress in the yard without getting a thing.

I only got one game against that deck since I chanted him during his upkeep and he assumed I was trying to just keep him from getting a clock on me and let it go. I cast Ad Nauseum at his end step and went into my turn.

[frogboy]

I tried Seize over Duress because I never ever wanted to lose to a Gaddock Teeg. Results were pretty mediocre. My life total isn't usually *that* relevant against Zoo but I mean if I cast Thoughtseize twice against like Merfolk I might start to get concerned.

[jazzykat]

Could you guys weigh in on the build that is most forgiving for beginners. The meta is really prime with CB decks continuously getting beaten down and I don't have VENGVINES.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Could you guys weigh in on the build that is most forgiving for beginners. The meta is really prime with CB decks continuously getting beaten down and I don't have VENGVINES.

Just pick a list you are most comfortable with and obsessively goldfish it. That's my best advice.

And I'd probably say a list with chants over thoughtseize is easier for beginners.

[Nidd]

Could you guys weigh in on the build that is most forgiving for beginners. The meta is really prime with CB decks continuously getting beaten down and I don't have VENGVINES.
Take Bryant's list and goldfish it ~50-100 times to get the hang of it.
If you feel competent enough, modify it a bit.

Storm Combo isn't really an archetyoe that is known for being forgiving...

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Take Bryant's list and goldfish it ~50-100 times to get the hang of it.
If you feel competent enough, modify it a bit.

Storm Combo isn't really an archetyoe that is known for being forgiving...

And if for some reason you're still hesitant the day of the tournament, bring a back up deck.

If I have a headache or am too tired to play TES, I'll break out the Gobbos.

Not quite Empty the Warrens, but it gets there.

[jazzykat]

I've noodled a bit with this deck tonight, and the format isn't ready for it. I mean not really, anyway. Aggro is a bye, and most decks that have counterspells either don't have enough or have a fast enough clock for it to matter. Lastly, while CB is a strong foil to our strategy they have to get it down fast enough for it to matter.

I have 3 chrome mox, and from playing other combo decks I hate the risk of mulliganing. I play a City of Traitors in its place. I also realize that alot of you guys play 4, and you have more experience with TES (which is not AdNT). I read Bryant's rationale in the primer but I just hate mulliganing. Has anyone else considered this?

[Magicsk8ngenius]

The thing about that is I have shattering spree in for dragon stumpy and angel staxx, and I sometimes wonder if they exist. I have eye of nowhere for fringe cases that never show up. If I could find more corner cases to run wish targets for then I would have stuff that gets used less than once every two to four tournaments. The trop will get used a lot, and thirteen is the right number of lands main to not die to diminishing returns, that wins about 15% of my games. ( the rest being warrens ad nauseam and iggy)

Ari is correct here for once. It's silly to play a land in your SB as you want as much wish utillity as possible. I think the pulverize is a horrible idea, whoever came up with that over shattering spree should be shot. You may not see dragon stompy or angel stax, but one thing I do run into a lot of is Ethersworn Canonist and sometimes Thorn of Amethyst. If you're playing against a deck with counterspells and need Cannonist gone, GL trying to make that happen with Pulverize. With shattering spree you replicate it - both copies targeting Canonist, so even if they counter the first one, they can't counter the copy.

Also I've been playing a list lately that plays 15 lands(one in place of chrome mox and a silence) and 3 Thoughtseize over the 3 Orim's chant in Cook's list. Oviously no 5 color lands and just duals and basics. As much as I like chant, thoughtseize gets the job done 90% of the time. Where this manabase difference and thoughtseize of chant helps is the Merfolk matchup. Since moving to this new list, the merfolk (U/G madness as well) has been a walk in the park. They just don't have any game against this list where they had a chance in the past. The main matchup that gets hurt with playing thoughtseize over chant is zoo... which if you're up to date, is no longer a popular deck. I still feel the zoo matchup is still strongly in our favor though because their only disruption is minimal.

Also playing I do like the idea of oust in the board. With my list though I have been playing deathmark which is pretty much the same thing as it gets rid of the main targets that you're concerned about anyways. (canonist, teeg, tarm or KoTR if must)

I hope my 2 cents was worth reading.

[maxflow2]

I've noodled a bit with this deck tonight, and the format isn't ready for it. I mean not really, anyway. Aggro is a bye, and most decks that have counterspells either don't have enough or have a fast enough clock for it to matter. Lastly, while CB is a strong foil to our strategy they have to get it down fast enough for it to matter.

I have 3 chrome mox, and from playing other combo decks I hate the risk of mulliganing. I play a City of Traitors in its place. I also realize that alot of you guys play 4, and you have more experience with TES (which is not AdNT). I read Bryant's rationale in the primer but I just hate mulliganing. Has anyone else considered this?

If you're using Bryant's list, I would consider a Tundra instead of a City to hit white much more consistently. I don't really like City in such a color hungry deck as this one. A Tundra should also increase the number of keepable hands more than a City (can't really keep the City only hand).

[lorddotm]

. I don't really like City in such a color hungry deck as this one. A Tundra should also increase the number of keepable hands more than a City (can't really keep the City only hand).

This literally makes 0 sense.


City of Brass
Tundra


Notice how City taps for any colour, while Tundra only taps for U and W...

Also, why can't you keep a one City hand?

[jazzykat]

This literally makes 0 sense.


City of Brass
Tundra


Notice how City taps for any colour, while Tundra only taps for U and W...

Also, why can't you keep a one City hand?

Because I was using a City of Traitors. The Tundra or another dual makes way more sense.

[lorddotm]

Because I was using a City of Traitors. The Tundra or another dual makes way more sense.

Why were you using that card in a 5 colour deck?

[Nidd]

Why were you using that card in a 5 colour deck?
Because he had no clue and understands know.

Nothing to see here, move along.

[jazzykat]

Why were you using that card in a 5 colour deck?

1. I am a complete novice to TES but understand the very basic principle of having a 2 Chrome Mox opening hand as being an auto mulligan unless the other 5 are stone cold nuts.

2. I sought to have a random bump past Daze, a cmc=0, and my meta is REALLY slow so I can usually afford to drop it as my 3rd. land if I happen to draw it.

3. Also what Nidd said.

[AriLax]

Just here to point out the irony of Magicsk8ngenius saying I'm "right for once" then talking about adding more lands and cutting Chant for Thoughtseize (which actually is pretty sick against Zoo on turn 1).

[ButtholeMcGhee]

So how bad it is to use Thoughtseize instead of Duress in the main? I ran into a Faeries deck today that destroyed me due to the fact I would Duress them and see things like Spellstutter Sprite, Glen Elendra Archmage, and Vedellion Clique, then I was sad when I put my Duress in the yard without getting a thing.

I only got one game against that deck since I chanted him during his upkeep and he assumed I was trying to just keep him from getting a clock on me and let it go. I cast Ad Nauseum at his end step and went into my turn.

I like Thoughtseize since it can grab hate bears like Ethersworn Cannonist. But, the life loss can sometimes be a problem against decks with disruption and a clock like Vengvine Survival.

[emidln]

I like Thoughtseize since it can grab hate bears like Ethersworn Cannonist. But, the life loss can sometimes be a problem against decks with disruption and a clock like Vengvine Survival.

I like thoughtseize enough to play more thoughtseize than Duress in my 75 (4 Thoughtseize, 3 Duress, although all TS are in the side).

[practical joke]

I like Thoughtseize since it can grab hate bears like Ethersworn Cannonist. But, the life loss can sometimes be a problem against decks with disruption and a clock like Vengvine Survival.

I think the 2 life to get the cannonist is more than enough just to warrant the beating you'll otherwise get by it..
simple math.

Also even when playing G1 against goblins it doesn't hurt to take their lackey out.

[OurSerratedDust]

emidln, can you quickly explain your thoughts on Dark Confidant? I see you run him in your board, but I don't really understand why he is worth the slots. You said yourself that you don't want him in a matchup where they put a ton of damage on you in a hurry, and also that you don't want to board him in against decks with creature removal. Which matchups do you board him in?

[kicks_422]

Against aggro-control and slow control, where you have the luxury of sitting back to accumulate cards in your hand then just fight through their counters.

[Nidd]

I don't think we want to sit back and get CA in any MU. We want to cast some spells and spill our stormplayerhappyjuices on the table.

I'd rather play another Wish target in my SB than Bob.

[maxflow2]

I don't think we want to sit back and get CA in any MU. We want to cast some spells and spill our stormplayerhappyjuices on the table.

I'd rather play another Wish target in my SB than Bob.

In those matchups, we need to draw into enough Duress effects in order to win usually. Bob is going to help us do that faster than they can draw into more counters while also ensuring we're able to go off when we finally do have a chance. He's also very helpful against most decks with Hymn to Tourach as a way to recover from discard and generally good against other combo decks as a way to ensure you go off first and can fight through their Duress/Thoughtseizes/Orim's Chants. The only issue I have with Confidants is that Counterbalance decks normally don't have enough of a sideboard against us to be boarding out all their removal so they usually will have removal ready for him.

[dahcmai]

I only seem to board in bob on Landstill, though recently I decided to start just using Xantid Swarm since it's much easier to bust through counters with him earlier. It seems to be a matter of taste. I have a lot of Merfolk and Landstill in my area so it's probably better for me.

[spider900]

Also I've been playing a list lately that plays 15 lands(one in place of chrome mox and a silence) and 3 Thoughtseize over the 3 Orim's chant in Cook's list. Oviously no 5 color lands and just duals and basics.

So how does your Manabase look like exactly?

[AriLax]

On Bob: I've really liked boarding more Duresses with Bob lately. You lose power on Ad Naus, but especially in the mirror they never get to do anything and you have time to set up however you need.

[yankeedave]

Aside from Landstill, mirror matches and MBC variants, are there any other decks you would bring in Bob?

[technogeek5000]

So, I wanted to start playing this deck (in light of my local meta having virtually no counter magic), and I picked up Bryant's list as a starting point, and after my first tournament (Erayo Affinity 2-0, Belcher 1-2, Burn 1-2), there are several changes that I want to make. One namely being that I often found my hand too full of control spells and not enough mana. The orim's chants were still effective as they helped to stall out belcher and prevented the flipping of erayo, but I would often either not have the white to play it or draw into multiples which always hurt. Also, I felt that the mana base needed a Badlands, so here are the changes I was planning on making

-1 Silence
-1 Underground Sea/Chrome Mox (havent decided whether I want the 14th land yet)
+1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Badlands

And in the sideboard:
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Echoing Truth
+2 Mindbreak Trap

Overall, I love the deck so far and think its the best possible deck I can be playing in my meta. Right now, I'm having trouble deciding which hands to keep and which to throw back. Is there a primer on here somewhere outlining the mulligan process?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

So, I wanted to start playing this deck (in light of my local meta having virtually no counter magic), and I picked up Bryant's list as a starting point, and after my first tournament (Erayo Affinity 2-0, Belcher 1-2, Burn 1-2), there are several changes that I want to make. One namely being that I often found my hand too full of control spells and not enough mana. The orim's chants were still effective as they helped to stall out belcher and prevented the flipping of erayo, but I would often either not have the white to play it or draw into multiples which always hurt. Also, I felt that the mana base needed a Badlands, so here are the changes I was planning on making

-1 Silence
-1 Underground Sea/Chrome Mox (havent decided whether I want the 14th land yet)
+1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Badlands

And in the sideboard:
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Echoing Truth
+2 Mindbreak Trap

Overall, I love the deck so far and think its the best possible deck I can be playing in my meta. Right now, I'm having trouble deciding which hands to keep and which to throw back. Is there a primer on here somewhere outlining the mulligan process?

A primer on page 1 shows good examples of what hands to keep.

And why are you running Mindbreak Trap? Orim's Chant serves the same purpose in the combo mirror.

[technogeek5000]

Belcher beats me going first?

[dahcmai]

I keep Mindbreak's also for a different reason. I have had it happen where I bait someone enough for a Mindbreak to actually be free against someone playing Landstill especially if they use a Brainstorm to dig up a counter. If you run Dark Confidants in the board, you might want them since that match up turns into attrition wars and you build and then try and punch through, build then try and punch through.

Belcher is the best reason to keep Mindbreaks. Them having the nuts opening hand isn't uncommon and it's nice to be able to put an end to that crap. They just plain can go off faster if they have what they need early and Mindbreak becomes a blowout.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Belcher beats me going first?

So assuming you lose game 1, boarding in 2 MBT's will win you game 2? It just sounds unlikely. How often will they be in your opening 7? Are you going to agressively mull into them?

[Jonathan Alexander]

So assuming you lose game 1, boarding in 2 MBT's will win you game 2? It just sounds unlikely. How often will they be in your opening 7? Are you going to agressively mull into them?

This. And seriously, since when are people preparing to play against Belcher? Are you facing the deck that often in tournaments? I think you're kind of overreacting to the decks you lost to in your first tournament. Just because something beats you once, that doesn't mean that a) you're going to see it very often, and b) it will regularly beat you. If you feel like you need to do something against this, try out the UBR version of the deck. These lists usually play more discard which hurts Belcher quite a lot.

[jrp]

Belcher?! It's a good matchup already. Chant in response to Seething Song is basically game. If they win the die roll and make 10 goblins, you take your turn and make 10,12, or 14...The only way you really ever lose is to a T1 belcher+ activation...

[technogeek5000]

This. And seriously, since when are people preparing to play against Belcher? Are you facing the deck that often in tournaments? I think you're kind of overreacting to the decks you lost to in your first tournament. Just because something beats you once, that doesn't mean that a) you're going to see it very often, and b) it will regularly beat you. If you feel like you need to do something against this, try out the UBR version of the deck. These lists usually play more discard which hurts Belcher quite a lot.

I know basic magic strategy...

Its a local meta, I play the belcher player every week as both of us tend to find each other at the top of the standings (played it all three tournaments in a row since they started with affinity first). Obviously it would be different at a larger meta. So far, i've liked gold fishing the main deck changes.

[alderon666]

I know basic magic strategy...

Its a local meta, I play the belcher player every week as both of us tend to find each other at the top of the standings (played it all three tournaments in a row since they started with affinity first). Obviously it would be different at a larger meta. So far, i've liked gold fishing the main deck changes.

What's is the point of discussing this here then? Just stick 4 Mindbreak Traps in your SB and be happy.

[AriLax]

Belcher is easy, right? On the play you keep a hand with Duress or Chant and win, on the draw you keep a hand that kills on 2 and you win if they don't Belch you.

[ComboMan]

What's is the point of discussing this here then? Just stick 4 Mindbreak Traps in your SB and be happy.

YEAH!!! And flip all of them with Ad Nauseam...

Boy, this threat is beginning to stink....

[alderon666]

YEAH!!! And flip all of them with Ad Nauseam...

Boy, this threat is beginning to stink....

Ok, let's say you did get a fast start and go T1 Ad Nauseam flipping 3 Mindbreak Traps. How is Belcher supposed to win now?

Unless he sided in Xantid Swams, you can drop lands and sculpt a perfect hand to win with a loop or goblins.

[Bryant Cook]

Boy, this threat is beginning to stink....

Beginning? There's a reason I stopped posting.

Mind Break trap is a terrible idea. Even post Nauseam if you flip three and somehow live. You should be trying to win the game, not drag it out.

[frogboy]

They can probably kill you fairly effortlessly with Land Grant, Mox, go, Rit, Belcher, go, Diamond, kill you.

Anyway.

I've been testing against Counterbalance more. I like the configuration of 4 Thoughtseize / 3 Duress main with sideboarded Pyroblasts against Counterbalance quite a bit, and with a Reverent Silence in the board I feel like a favorite against the Natural Order lists that have basically no counterspells. Playing against lists like Martell's is harder, but still not totally insurmountable. Essentially, it boils down to having more ways to fight a Counterbalance instead of having a Xantid Swarm against their lock. You also don't get the awkward hands where you have Swarm, Rite, Ritual but only two initial mana sources. (edit: is there a way to fix this by playing like a Bayou instead? The problem is that I usually get pissed off when I draw Swamp naturally, and I think this just exacerbates that)

Xantid Swarm is still the blade against Madness and Merfolk, though, and being able to play Swarm on one or two and forcing them to trade Force of Will for it rather than playing a Thoughtseize and just getting Pierced comes up rather frequently. Unsure which configuration I like more; more testing probably necessary.

I jam Confidants basically just for the mirror. I think it's the best card to have in a Duress fight. I guess you could conceivably Trap or Chant people; I bring Confidant in against slow do-nothing decks but I'm also a pretty heavy favorite against slow do-nothing decks anyway so mise. Chant is actually kinda loose because if your opponent plays Duress against you and takes like your Infernal or whatever leaving you with Chant, he can play a Confidant and find more ways to root out your Chant if he needs to.

edit2: An interesting option against Counterbalance is adding Reverent Silence to the sideboard and cutting the Pyroblasts. Pyroblast is pretty atrocious at defending Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor, so all it's really good for is fighting Counterbalance. If you have Reverent Silence, you don't need to be as afraid of Counterbalance, plus Thoughtseize/Duress are almost as good for fighting Counterbalance except in situations where you're a) on the draw and they have Brainstorm or b) you Pyroblast a Counterbalance when they also have Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, or Counterspell in their hand, and you go off on the turn they're tapped out from the Counterbalance. You end up with their Plows still being live if you stay on Swarms, but that's not the end of the world.

[Jason]

edit2: An interesting option against Counterbalance is adding Reverent Silence to the sideboard and cutting the Pyroblasts. Pyroblast is pretty atrocious at defending Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor, so all it's really good for is fighting Counterbalance. If you have Reverent Silence, you don't need to be as afraid of Counterbalance, plus Thoughtseize/Duress are almost as good for fighting Counterbalance except in situations where you're a) on the draw and they have Brainstorm or b) you Pyroblast a Counterbalance when they also have Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, or Counterspell in their hand, and you go off on the turn they're tapped out from the Counterbalance. You end up with their Plows still being live if you stay on Swarms, but that's not the end of the world.

Are you adding 4x Reverent Silence instead to come in post-board? That I can maybe see. But it is only good against one match-up. At least Pyroblast is not completely worthless against Merfolk or Landstill. However, one in the board is no good: Burning Wish into Reverent Silence is less than exciting. I had one in my Belcher sideboard for the longest time, doing absolutely nothing. My issue was always this: if the opponent didn't counter the Wish, then why not just win the game?

[jazzykat]

The idea of using duress instead of chant is very appealing because you don't need a rainbow land for disruption. It also gives us a better chance of hitting CB or Top. On the other hand it almost certainly precludes us from reliably using the Iggy loop from the board when the opponent is playing the appropriate instant speed disruption.

[AriLax]

The idea of using duress instead of chant is very appealing because you don't need a rainbow land for disruption. It also gives us a better chance of hitting CB or Top. On the other hand it almost certainly precludes us from reliably using the Iggy loop from the board when the opponent is playing the appropriate instant speed disruption.

What if you could also just set up for extra mana against those decks and get back Duress + Tutor off IGG to fight through a Force?

[jazzykat]

What if you could also just set up for extra mana against those decks and get back Duress + Tutor off IGG to fight through a Force?

It's always a tradeoff. You are right in what you say about conterspell decks but of course more mana and storm usually takes more time. Against decks with burn and mana open though I see a definite benefit to silence/chant.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

It's always a tradeoff. You are right in what you say about conterspell decks but of course more mana and storm usually takes more time. Against decks with burn and mana open though I see a definite benefit to silence/chant.

All this talk about Iggy loops with Duress over Chant make me feel like running Cabal Ritual again..

[maxflow2]

What if you could also just set up for extra mana against those decks and get back Duress + Tutor off IGG to fight through a Force?


This sounds like the start of an infomercial advertising your own version of storm using Cabal Ritual and Grim Tutors.



sideboard stuff


Against blue, I think it basically comes down to Xantid Swarm is the best against Merfolk/UG Madness, Pyroblast is the best against CB, and Confidant is good against slower decks like Landstill while also having value in some other matchups.

Xantid is really good right now, but personally, I don't like the hoops you have to jump through to play Xantid in a 3 color list (which, I guess, then becomes a 4 color list). I think the manabase is already stretching itself so much to reliably hit R, U, and B in the first place, and adding a Tropical Island to the mix isn't helping things. Decks you want Xantid against are also often the decks you're most concerned about having Wasteland too, which only makes things more difficult.

I also think that Pyroblast is better in Bryant's list than in a list with Duress+Thoughtseize because of its synergy with Orim's Chant, though its still the card I want most against CB even without Chants. Having Pyroblast as your only protection with Infernal Tutor or LED sucks either way, of course. Actually sideboarding in copies Reverant Silence against CB seems like a bad idea because of Ad Nauseam.

Anyway, thanks for trying to keep discussion going unlike some people.

[jazzykat]

Playing some random games on MWS brougt me to a few conclusions.

1. Chant/Silence is much more elegant than I first gave it credit for.
It makes IGG and Dimishing Returns practically 1 sided.
It usually pulls 2 cards from the opponents hand when they are playing against blue which is their FoW and their least relevant other card. This is often irrelevant because CA is nice but often not important as stopping the storm combo player. It does become more important when either the opponent has 2 FoW and only 3 blue cards total in hand or in a game that draws out.

2. It seems that no-one is preparing for storm combo any more. We might lose to a CB deck but I'm pretty sure that they will get steam rolled by Vengevival. We got to lose to something, and I would rather have my worst matchup to a deck that is getting raped pretty hard at the moment.

3. Diminishing Returns is sublime. It is an elegant solution often bridging the EtW and pray method to a clean kill with Tendrils. It can also create an obcene amount of CA if you drop your hand quick and get it off while your hand is empty and you have some artifact mana on the board while all your opponent has is 1 land down. Not to mention you might also win the game. This is also true with IGG but it doesn't have quite the same level of effect.

My biggest challenge with this deck is knowing when to risk it and go for EtW or wait a turn and try for Tendrils vs. CB decks packing EE. Obviously waiting a turn may allow them to drop EE, CB, or find a little more disruption. Does anyone have any rough guidelines from experience and/or statistics?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

My biggest challenge with this deck is knowing when to risk it and go for EtW or wait a turn and try for Tendrils vs. CB decks packing EE. Obviously waiting a turn may allow them to drop EE, CB, or find a little more disruption. Does anyone have any rough guidelines from experience and/or statistics?

The longer you wait to play Empty the Warrens, the worse it gets. That's unless you cast it with an absurd storm count.

[ComboMan]

Epiphany: The TES former list, is better against Zoo....

[emidln]

This sounds like the start of an infomercial advertising your own version of storm using Cabal Ritual and Grim Tutors.

No it doesn't. It sounds like you don't play storm very much because I've been doing that since Iggy Pop. I've done it in Iggy Pop, TES, Grim Iggy, Fetchland Tendrils, DDFT, ANT, and NLS. Just because his ANT list can do it doesn't mean that TES can't.




Against blue, I think it basically comes down to Xantid Swarm is the best against Merfolk/UG Madness, Pyroblast is the best against CB, and Confidant is good against slower decks like Landstill while also having value in some other matchups.

You really don't play if you think Confidant has value against a deck with so much removal that it can't board it all out against us.

The best list I've ever played against Zoo has 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Duress maindeck and brings in Thoughtseize and 4 1-2 mana bounce spells.

[whiteshepherdman]

^ pwned.magic.com

[lorddotm]

It seems like when a deck goes to DTB, the thread just goes to shit.


This is unfortunate.


Lets add Insidious Dreams!!! That card is the NU75

[maxflow2]

No it doesn't. It sounds like you don't play storm very much because I've been doing that since Iggy Pop. I've done it in Iggy Pop, TES, Grim Iggy, Fetchland Tendrils, DDFT, ANT, and NLS. Just because his ANT list can do it doesn't mean that TES can't.





You really don't play if you think Confidant has value against a deck with so much removal that it can't board it all out against us.

The best list I've ever played against Zoo has 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Duress maindeck and brings in Thoughtseize and 4 1-2 mana bounce spells.

No shit it's been done since Iggy Pop. And of course TES can do it as well - I just made the comment because its much easier for lists with Cabal Ritual to perform it than Rite of Flame.

Confidant has been fine for me against Landstill. Yeah, they have removal for it, but they'll often have to tap out to use it, which is great for us. And it's certainly good when it does stick because the games often go long against them. Xantid Swarm has the same issue with removal and Pyroblast has often disappointed me against Landstill since they'll usually just allow Duress effects to resolve.

No need to be all elitist and condescending - all I'm trying to do is contribute.

[emidln]

No shit it's been done since Iggy Pop. And of course TES can do it as well - I just made the comment because its much easier for lists with Cabal Ritual to perform it than Rite of Flame.

Confidant has been fine for me against Landstill. Yeah, they have removal for it, but they'll often have to tap out to use it, which is great for us. And it's certainly good when it does stick because the games often go long against them. Xantid Swarm has the same issue with removal and Pyroblast has often disappointed me against Landstill since they'll usually just allow Duress effects to resolve.

No need to be all elitist and condescending - all I'm trying to do is contribute.

Shitty advice will be called out for it. Trying only to contribute poorly is far worse than staying quiet.

I have no idea at all why you are boarding more than a couple of bounce spells against Landstill. The matchup is easy and Duresses are fine. If your hand won't win through 2 counters past the first few turns, wait until it will. It's not like they have a clock.

[maxflow2]

Shitty advice will be called out for it. Trying only to contribute poorly is far worse than staying quiet.

I have no idea at all why you are boarding more than a couple of bounce spells against Landstill. The matchup is easy and Duresses are fine. If your hand won't win through 2 counters past the first few turns, wait until it will. It's not like they have a clock.

I don't mind you disagreeing, but there's really no need to be a dick about it. I totally agree that the matchup isn't hard and that not a lot of help is needed, but it's been my experience that Dark Confidant has been helpful entirely because they have such a slow clock.

[frogboy]

What are you boarding out? If you bench all of your Ponders and then all of your Confidants get Plowed it might be hard to get anything going.

[Nidd]

I don't mind you disagreeing, but there's really no need to be a dick about it. I totally agree that the matchup isn't hard and that not a lot of help is needed, but it's been my experience that Dark Confidant has been helpful entirely because they have such a slow clock.
Emidln is anything, but he sure as hell isn't a dick. Stuff like Grim Tutor has been suggested over and over and over and over. Lists with Grim Tutor and Cabal Ritual didn't perform better than regular lists, that's why nobody plays these cards in TES.

Instead of activating their StPs, you could also play some Cantrips and just dig for your protection. What would you want to board out for Bob?

[maxflow2]

What are you boarding out? If you bench all of your Ponders and then all of your Confidants get Plowed it might be hard to get anything going.

I've been doing -1 Infernal, -1 Chrome Mox, -2 Ponder for 2 Confidants and 2 bounce spells against lists with Innocent Blood. I don't board them in against lists with plow, usually, but most of the Landstill decks I've faced have only been 3 colors. Even if they do have the Innocent Blood, I feel like tying up their mana early on by forcing them to use it is at least worth something. It certainly hasn't been overwhelming or anything, so it could easily not make sense, but it has won me a few games so I've liked it.

I apologize for the comments as I never meant for it to sound like what I was saying was what was generally accepted or anything - I was just relating my own experience and I didn't appreciate what felt like a condescending attitude. I'll be more careful when posting in the future.

[frogboy]

Weird. Does anyone else ever board out Infernal? I think it's one of the best cards in the deck. I get the Wish thing, but that's actually infinite mana and I can probably figure out a different way to kill them at that point.

[x8eikdls]

Boarding out an Infernal is fine vs slower decks that give you time to set up. Sure, its infinite mana to Wish for Infernal, Infernal for Ad Nauseam and cast it, all in one turn, but you generally aren't doing it all in 1 turn.

I'm sure you've wished for Diminishing Returns the turn before you actually cast it to have extra mana post-Returns. Same thing post board with Infernal Tutor. Wish for the Tutor, pass turn. Go off next turn.

[OurSerratedDust]

Weird. Does anyone else ever board out Infernal? I think it's one of the best cards in the deck. I get the Wish thing, but that's actually infinite mana and I can probably figure out a different way to kill them at that point.

Isn't that what bryant does in a lot of matchups? Or at least it says so in the opening post. Personally, I found that I almost never did the wish tricks.

[deviant]

I board out one infernal a lot.
I'd sb it if it wasnt for the concerns about md bomb count.
(uncomfortable going under ten)

In post board games where you sb a lot, the games have a higher tendency to go longer, thus going down to 9 bombs has felt acceptable to me. I do not personally like cutting more than one ponder but some may disagree.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I can't really think of a matchup where I'd board out Infernal. In fact, I'd board out a Wish before Infernal since I board in half my wish target answers anyway and Infernal lets me double up on protection against Blue and go faster against non-blue.

My usual fist cards boarded out are the 1 maindeck CoV, 1 Mox, 1 Ponder and 1 Brainstorm.

[x8eikdls]

I can't really think of a matchup where I'd board out Infernal. In fact, I'd board out a Wish before Infernal since I board in half my wish target answers anyway and Infernal lets me double up on protection against Blue and go faster against non-blue.

My usual fist cards boarded out are the 1 maindeck CoV, 1 Mox, 1 Ponder and 1 Brainstorm.

Why are you running a single MD Chain of Vapor? That makes absolutely no sense. If you want MD bounce, play an Eye of Nowhere in the board. You're diluting your deck for no reason.

Some general sideboard rules I follow: I only board out an Infernal vs. slow blue decks with no clock. Mainly just Landstill variants. I only board out Chrome Mox vs non-Wasteland / Stifle decks. I don't board out Brainstorm vs. decks with Standstill (its the best way to break it EOT), which sometimes means 2 Ponders get boarded out instead of the 1 Ponder 1 Brainstorm split.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If you want MD bounce, play an Eye of Nowhere in the board because Burning Wish allows for you to run 4 copies of a bounce spell MD without diluting the deck

Fixed.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Why are you running a single MD Chain of Vapor? That makes absolutely no sense. If you want MD bounce, play an Eye of Nowhere in the board. You're diluting your deck for no reason.

Some general sideboard rules I follow: I only board out an Infernal vs. slow blue decks with no clock. Mainly just Landstill variants. I only board out Chrome Mox vs non-Wasteland / Stifle decks. I don't board out Brainstorm vs. decks with Standstill (its the best way to break it EOT), which sometimes means 2 Ponders get boarded out instead of the 1 Ponder 1 Brainstorm split.

Because my meta has decks with maindeck hate and Chain makes it cost U after Nauseam to win instead of 1RUU. Also, Chain has always been good for me whether its buying me another turn vs zoo or making it so I can storm into tendrils without IGG or AdN, its always been good for me.

[tride]

Because my meta has decks with maindeck hate and Chain makes it cost U after Nauseam to win instead of 1RUU.

What kind of permanent lets you play Nauseam but stops Tendrils? Meddling Mage? I agree with RaNDoMxGeSTuReS that 4 Burning Wish should be enough.

Btw, I played in 28-man tournament and went 4-1. MUs were Belcher 2-0, Elves 2-0, Zoo 2-1, Merfolk 2-0 and Merfolk 1-2. I played Xantid Swarm in the sb because I knew there will be many merfolks and only few counterbalances. Xantid Swarm wins the game against merfolk if it hits the table. Unless your opponent draws 4 Cursecatchers like mine did. Right now when there's a lack of players with cb decks here in Finland, I won't be playing without it.

[JonBarber]

What kind of permanent lets you play Nauseam but stops Tendrils? Meddling Mage? I agree with RaNDoMxGeSTuReS that 4 Burning Wish should be enough.

Using it to build storm storm count (bouncing your artifacts). Its justifiable if you have stax heavy meta or meta filled with maindeck hate bears. Wish for eye is mana intensive, slow, and means your have to 2 for 1 them. And eye being a sorcery means you will have 2 less mana when going off.

[tride]

Drawing that single Chain of Vapor when you need it is pretty difficult. And if you have played Ad Nauseam already there shouldn't be anything you need to bounce to win. There can't be any Canonists, Teegs, Trinispheres or Thorn of Amethysts in the play. If the meta is really filled with stax and main deck hate, you should think about playing something else.

[JonBarber]

Drawing that single Chain of Vapor when you need it is pretty difficult. And if you have played Ad Nauseam already there shouldn't be anything you need to bounce to win. There can't be any Canonists, Teegs, Trinispheres or Thorn of Amethysts in the play. If the meta is really filled with stax and main deck hate, you should think about playing something else.

This is pretty true. But 8 cantrips usually helps find one of's.

[NQN]

Hey,
I played the Deck with the usual list at GP Bochums Sideevent, 180 player, 8 rounds, 6-2 or better will receive prices.
I faced the following decks:
R1: D&T 2-0 -> He had basically no chance at all.
R2: Merrows 2-0 -> Fizzled g1 with Returns, won g2&g3 because he didnt got the nuts.
R3: Merrows 2-1 -> Threw away g2, lucked through 3 cursescratcher, 2 spell Pierce, Daze&Wasteland g3
R4: Bgw Discard/LD 2-1 -> Beeing on the play is always very nice vs them :)
R5: UGw BantSur 0-2 I go all in t2 for AN because I don´t want him to have an active Sur. He forces. G2 I draw 9 Lands.
R6: Survival Zoo 0-2 AN for 17 life kills me g1, g2 I mull into a horrible Hand and just loose doing nothing.
R7: Usual Zoo 1-2 G2 he has double Waste+M.Trap which I saw coming but couldn´t handle because without Duress etc. G3 I mull, go for Chant+Returns t4 and draw nothing but crap.
Result: 4-3 Drop
Zoo seems to be a bad matchup :(

[Plague Sliver]

New to the thread, just wanted to share my initial experience playing the deck.

I built the 3 color TES with the Thoughtseize package. I played 4 rounds this week.

2-1 win vs. Burn.
2-0 win vs. Dredge. Game 2 he gets a Null Rod out but I combo through it anyways.
1-2 loss vs. Salvagers/Recruiter/Grindstone deck (Bomberman?). Game 2 he makes the epic play of the day, using LEDs to dig deeper with Sensei's Top and find the Grindstone just in time. Game 3 I make the mistake of going for Warrens and he has the Engineered Explosives.
2-0 win vs. Next Level Thresh. Game 1 I win by Duressing his Explosives, then dropping 16 goblins on Turn 4. Game 2 I baited his counters. He had no pressure and I build my hand to cast Ad Nauseam with Pyroblast backup.

Overall I had a great time, and I can already see the power level of this deck. I really didn't face a tough countermagic matchup like Landstill. I am still learning when to go off with Warrens vs. waiting more patiently for Tendrils.

Some additional observations:
- 3 color is good against Merfolk, but when you're not facing them it just feels less powerful. Oftentimes I wished I could IGG with Orim's Chant backup and that option wasn't available.
- It's probably my lack of play experience, but I couldn't think of one situation where I wanted to Diminishing Returns.
- Thoughtseize is really good for taking out their clock, like Goyf. It just sucks using it to bin their burn spell, though.

I may play more with the 3 color build and then eventually transition over to 5 color. With Xantid Swarms I should be able to increase my percentages vs. Merfolk with 5 color. It was pretty nice to get basics out against the Thresh deck, though.

[ComboMan]

Hey,
I played the Deck with the usual list at GP Bochums Sideevent, 180 player, 8 rounds, 6-2 or better will receive prices.
I faced the following decks:
R1: D&T 2-0 -> He had basically no chance at all.
R2: Merrows 2-0 -> Fizzled g1 with Returns, won g2&g3 because he didnt got the nuts.
R3: Merrows 2-1 -> Threw away g2, lucked through 3 cursescratcher, 2 spell Pierce, Daze&Wasteland g3
R4: Bgw Discard/LD 2-1 -> Beeing on the play is always very nice vs them :)
R5: UGw BantSur 0-2 I go all in t2 for AN because I don´t want him to have an active Sur. He forces. G2 I draw 9 Lands.
R6: Survival Zoo 0-2 AN for 17 life kills me g1, g2 I mull into a horrible Hand and just loose doing nothing.
R7: Usual Zoo 1-2 G2 he has double Waste+M.Trap which I saw coming but couldn´t handle because without Duress etc. G3 I mull, go for Chant+Returns t4 and draw nothing but crap.
Result: 4-3 Drop
Zoo seems to be a bad matchup :(

Zoo was a good MU when we used to use Iggy main deck...
Nowadays still a good MU but, not a 75%/35%...I believe is more like a 60%/40%.....

[Shimi]

Zoo was a good MU when we used to use Iggy main deck...
Nowadays still a good MU but, not a 75%/35%...I believe is more like a 60%/40%.....

I never lost a Zoo MU but I need to say that I'm a bit luck against Zoo when I play TES and I only played 4 times at tournaments against them.But if Zoo becames like 60/40 it could means that:

1)We are too slow to combo off
2)We are too Adn dependent
3)Need more SB options for their hate.

Could be 1 or 2 or 3 , what really make me sad is that with a infested Survival metagame there were no TES lists at Top8's , may be Survival is a hard matchup to face 2-3 times in a single day?

[Deger]

I am still learning when to go off with Warrens vs. waiting more patiently for Tendrils.



I generally have success with warrens when it is very early in the game and I don't have enough storm to kill right out of the gate but ETW into like 12-14 tokens can usually cause a scoop on T1-2 out of most decks.. By turn 3 I would think you should have developed enough to tendrils kill it just seems to me sometimes the chain to get to 9 storm requires more resources then available to your initial fan of 7 (+1)

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm currently testing a list with 4 Xantid Swarm, 4 Chrome Mox and 1 Hunting Pack.

Liking the results so far. If anything, it's awesomefunbuffalosauce.

[ComboMan]

I'm currently testing a list with 4 Xantid Swarm, 4 Chrome Mox and 1 Hunting Pack.

Liking the results so far. If anything, it's awesomefunbuffalosauce.

Hunting pack is an instant! U can't wish it...

How do you use it? In place of EtW? 7 damage with Ad Nauseam?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Hunting pack is an instant! U can't wish it...

How do you use it? In place of EtW? 7 damage with Ad Nauseam?

You cast it. In place of EtW. 7 damage with Ad Nauseam.

I'll have a list posted after further testing.

[Piceli89]

Hunting Pack instead of Ad Nauseam or Etw is really, really, really, an horrible idea. by the way, how are you going to cast that GG? withdouble petal or double Gemstone /CoB? Or Infernal+LED and then having 7 mana left?

[x8eikdls]

Hunting Pack? Seriously?

What the fuck happened to this thread.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Hunting Pack? Seriously?

What the fuck happened to this thread.

Because I wanted to try it out.

And it's better than constantly discussing chant effects vs duress effects for 5 pages.

I could seriously care less about people debating what protection sells and/or colors are better.

x8eikdls, maybe a bit less complaining and more testing?

[Lorgalis]

Because I wanted to try it out.

And it's better than constantly discussing chant effects vs duress effects for 5 pages.

I could seriously care less about people debating what protection sells and/or colors are better.

x8eikdls, maybe a bit less complaining and more testing?

^^ True.

I don't know if Hunting Pack is a good idea, but some fresh air in this thread is welcome, instead of going over and over on the same discussions.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

To sum up the last 5 or so pages of this thread and so people won't have to ask as much:

Orim's Chant/Silence - These are better against unknown metas or at large events.

Thoughtseize/Duress - These are better against Counterbalance decks.

Xantid Swarm - These are better against tempo decks.

If you're scared of Wasteland, play 3c TES.
If you don't care about Wasteland, play 5c TES.
If you like Grim Tutor, play ANT.
If you like touching yourself, play DDFT.

But it still comes down to whichever you want to use. Ok, now we can stop talking about it.

So, if any of you feel adventurous I've got the Hunting Pack configuration down to this:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Concordant Crossroads
1 Hunting Pack

So far, I haven't had issues casting 5GG.

I'm not too sure on Concordant Crossroads, I like winning right away and it's also another imprint target. I'm not sure whether a configuration with Odious Trow, Summoner's Pact, Dryad Arbor and Culling the Weak would be better. But then it sounds like we're playing Pact SI.

I'll admit though folks, the 5GG feels like Dragonstorm. Low storm needed to win and awkward mana cost. Winning with beasts is so cool though :laugh:

[OurSerratedDust]

I got 25th out of 218 people at the SCG Legacy Open yesterday, finishing 6-2. I played emidln's list from a few pages back, only swapping a Dark Confidant in the board for the 4th Thoughtseize:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm

Instants
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
1 Tendrils of Agony

Basic Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Dark Confidant
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Meltdown
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize

The deck ran pretty smoothly. The matchups I won were Enchantress, Aggro slivers, Affinity x2, Combo Elves, and Show and Tell. I lost to Ubg Countertop and The Rock.

I was really hoping to use Xantid Swarms against Survival and Merfolk, but somehow I didn't play either in eight rounds. 4 Thoughtseize in the board was excellent. Unfortunately, I didn't really get to use Dark Confidant too much. I'd considering cutting it, but I want to test a little more with it.

Also, I think two Ad Nauseams maindeck is really really good right now. If you haven't tried it, give it a shot. In a slower meta I might consider switching to a split of Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens, but for now I think ETW is just too slow.

[x8eikdls]

I wouldn't waste SB slots on Bob nowadays. It's at it's best vs the mirror, landstill, and CB decks, all of which are on the decline lately.

[technogeek5000]

I ranked 9th in SCG Boston yesterday only to miss out of the top 8 due to an oversight in taking the draw. Here's my tournament report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19278-First-time-with-TES-almost-gets-there-%289th-place-at-SCG-Boston%29&p=500089

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I ranked 9th in SCG Boston yesterday only to miss out of the top 8 due to an oversight in taking the draw. Here's my tournament report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19278-First-time-with-TES-almost-gets-there-%289th-place-at-SCG-Boston%29&p=500089

Math kills.

Otherwise congrats on your finish.

[Shimi]

I was just testing last weeks a TES list (bryant -1fetch +1 city) and today I tested technogeek5000 list with +1 Adn -1 Etw and found it to be more consistent cause I was missing lands or mulling too much , also I did not have problems with 7 protec at going off, the 14 land make me more confident and I rarely missed EtW MD and never dead due to 5cc Adn instead of 4cc of EtW, 3 chrome was enought but a bit risk if you go off without land drops or mana flooting and used like 2 petals.Cabal ritual was not amazing but I was just happy for it being an accel(even when I use 1B for BBB).Anyone tested and find it more consistent and just a bit slower(cause yu couldn't always draw useful cards from top)?

[TheShaun]

I could seriously care less about people debating what protection sells and/or colors are better.



You know that means you care about it right? If you could care less, then obviously you have some amount of care.

[frogboy]

And it's better than constantly discussing chant effects vs duress effects for 5 pages.

I could seriously care less about people debating what protection sells and/or colors are better.

It's not a matter of personal preference. There is a configuration that is better than the others. The entire point of the thread is to figure out what configuration that is. The ritual package is more or less standard depending on if you're UBR or UB. Which colors and what disruption is mostly what's left to discuss.

I guess we could discuss alternate win conditions instead.

Options:

Tendrils of Agony. A strong solution; easy to cast with Ritual, comparatively light storm requirements, kills immediately.
Empty the Warrens. Sure, this is a good option if you can ramp DI mana and storm on turn one or two.
Grapeshot. Sometimes you need to kill Gaddock Teeg, and sometimes you want to humiliate the other guy.
Hunting Pack. Hits you with Searing Flesh when you flip it with Ad Nauseam. Basically impossible to cast without Infernal + LED. Doesn't kill immediately.

Hmm.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

It's not a matter of personal preference. There is a configuration that is better than the others. The entire point of the thread is to figure out what configuration that is. The ritual package is more or less standard depending on if you're UBR or UB. Which colors and what disruption is mostly what's left to discuss.

I guess we could discuss alternate win conditions instead.

Options:

Tendrils of Agony. A strong solution; easy to cast with Ritual, comparatively light storm requirements, kills immediately.
Empty the Warrens. Sure, this is a good option if you can ramp DI mana and storm on turn one or two.
Grapeshot. Sometimes you need to kill Gaddock Teeg, and sometimes you want to humiliate the other guy.
Hunting Pack. Hits you with Searing Flesh when you flip it with Ad Nauseam. Basically impossible to cast without Infernal + LED. Doesn't kill immediately.

Hmm.

I really wish Wizards would give us some new Storm toys already.

[Lorgalis]

Hummmmm


I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon. In fact, it looks like Wizards won't be printing ANYTHING that helps combo in a long time. Yeah, I know that they printed Ad Nauseam in Shards, but I bet that it was a mistake on their part. I highly doubt that they realized the power of the card.
As I said elsewhere, Wizards keeps printing one hatebear/hate card per block: Lorwyn (Gaddock teeg), Shadowmoor (Runed Halo), M10 (Silence--> that works for us though ;) ), Alara (Ethersworn Canonist), Zendikar (Mindbreak Trap), M11 (Leyline of Sanctity), Scars (Leonin Arbiter). Admittedly, the only good hate cards are Canonist and Teeg, BUT the trend is clear. 7 hate cards recently printed Vs. 2 cards that we can use (Silence and Ad Nauseam).

[Dia_Bot]

Hummmmm


I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon. In fact, it looks like Wizards won't be printing ANYTHING that helps combo in a long time. Yeah, I know that they printed Ad Nauseam in Shards, but I bet that it was a mistake on their part. I highly doubt that they realized the power of the card.
As I said elsewhere, Wizards keeps printing one hatebear/hate card per block: Lorwyn (Gaddock teeg), Shadowmoor (Runed Halo), M10 (Silence--> that works for us though ;) ), Alara (Ethersworn Canonist), Zendikar (Mindbreak Trap), M11 (Leyline of Sanctity), Scars (Leonin Arbiter). Admittedly, the only good hate cards are Canonist and Teeg, BUT the trend is clear. 7 hate cards recently printed Vs. 2 cards that we can use (Silence and Ad Nauseam).
Unfortunately that's true.

[Bryant Cook]

Grapeshot. Sometimes you need to kill Gaddock Teeg, and sometimes you want to humiliate the other guy.

I love this.

I just read the last few pages and all I have to say is Hunting Pack, really? I don't remember who's idea, but awful. Seven mana, two if it green, it's more expensive and is off color. You might as well put Ill-Gotten Gains back in the maindeck and win for one less mana. Not to mention, winning with Grapeshot is just cooler.

On a different note, I updated the opening post with new reports and articles. Enjoy.

[DragoFireheart]

Tendrils of Agony. Best kill spell.
Empty the Warrens. Loses to Echoing truth or EE for 0.
Grapeshot. Coolest kill spell
Hunting Pack. Awful kill spell.

Hmm.

Fix'd.

Has anyone tested Mox Opal in any serious amounts?

[Nidd]

Fix'd.

Has anyone tested Mox Opal in any serious amounts?
Yes and it's awful.

[DragoFireheart]

Yes and it's awful.

Alright, so it is what I thought. Has anyone seen any previews of the second block set of Scars that we could use?

[OurSerratedDust]

Fix'd.

Has anyone tested Mox Opal in any serious amounts?

It is really only good post-ad nauseam, and you should be winning anyhow.

[lorddotm]

I love this.

I just read the last few pages and all I have to say is Hunting Pack, really? I don't remember who's idea, but awful. Seven mana, two if it green, it's more expensive and is off color. You might as well put Ill-Gotten Gains back in the maindeck and win for one less mana. Not to mention, winning with Grapeshot is just cooler.

On a different note, I updated the opening post with new reports and articles. Enjoy.

Can you update the sideboarding?

K thanx <3

[Bryant Cook]

Can you update the sideboarding?

K thanx <3

Would you like a beer now that I'm done? Possibly for me to take off your shoes?

[emidln]

Would you like a beer now that I'm done? Possibly for me to take off your shoes?

I could use a back massage, something better to wish for than Diminishing Returns, and a hooker. Hook a brother up.

[Jason]

I could use a back massage, something better to wish for than Diminishing Returns, and a hooker. Hook a brother up.

Sorry... Mind's Desire is banned.

[Koito]

What about Time Reversal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Time%20Reversal) (from M11) over Diminishing Returns?

[OurSerratedDust]

What about Time Reversal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Time%20Reversal) (from M11) over Diminishing Returns?

In my extensive testing with Diminishing Returns (see opening post), I found that having an additional mana available increased your chances of winning significantly, not to mention the fact that the ten exiled cards from DR are usually irrelevant.

[mechanize]

Yeah in my limited testing with Tes at my local store and gold fishing. Well after learned when the proper time to use Diminishing Returns, i have seen the same thing OurSerratedDust is going with. One extra mana can mean that you are going off a turn slower, can't power through a daze. I think diminishing returns is a better choice.

That being the case I wanted to ask the you guys about if my view on diminishing returns is correct. In every matchup that doesn't have counterspells(daze/FoW) you can use diminishing returns as an aggressive case but against decks running counters it should be used as a last resort?

I just am wondering against which match-ups it is a viable card that you wouldn't normally think of.

Thanks.

[ComboMan]

On a different note, I updated the opening post with new reports and articles. Enjoy.

Thx...

BTW, how did u board against Vengevines decks? (UG and GW)

Now I'm testing your SB with a little diference: -2 pyroblast, +2 seizes...

[yankeedave]

Would you like a beer now that I'm done? Possibly for me to take off your shoes?

Why are you wearing my shoes?!?! Take them off right this instant! You will get them all Bryant-y!

That said, they say you should walk a mile in another man's shoes. That way, you are a mile away and have his shoes.

[Piceli89]

Please stop trolling the thread and put up some serious shit. For example: did anyone felt that Carpet of Flowers could be a good card in the sideboard? People here have picked it up and found it very useful to compensate the bad manabase issues.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Please stop trolling the thread and put up some serious shit. For example: did anyone felt that Carpet of Flowers could be a good card in the sideboard? People here have picked it up and found it very useful to compensate the bad manabase issues.

I don't think Carpet of Flowers is as practical in TES than in other storm combo decks. It's main usage is to beat Daze and cast big spells when mana accel isn't available.

Xantid Swarm is better against Merfolk for the same casting cost and you're usually dead against the fish before Carpet of Flowers becomes useful. It's strong against slow blue control decks.

Carpet of Flowers, I think, suffers from the same issue with Sensei's Divining Top. When you play it, you're assuming that you're going for a "slow win." And this deck is trying to win ASAP.

tldr;
If I wanted to run Carpet of Flowers, I'd sleeve up UBG ANT with Cabal Ritual because it plays like control.

[OurSerratedDust]

Yeah in my limited testing with Tes at my local store and gold fishing. Well after learned when the proper time to use Diminishing Returns, i have seen the same thing OurSerratedDust is going with. One extra mana can mean that you are going off a turn slower, can't power through a daze. I think diminishing returns is a better choice.

That being the case I wanted to ask the you guys about if my view on diminishing returns is correct. In every matchup that doesn't have counterspells(daze/FoW) you can use diminishing returns as an aggressive case but against decks running counters it should be used as a last resort?

I just am wondering against which match-ups it is a viable card that you wouldn't normally think of.

Thanks.

I know what you're saying here, but there are a number of factors to consider. Against both control and aggro decks, if you can safely win with Tendrils, Empty the Warrens, or Ill-Gotten Gains, you should. With IGG, you need to watch for any lethal burn spells or permission they could get back (chants and xantid swarm help here a lot.)

If you really can't do those things and can't afford to wait, then go for Diminishing Returns and see how it pans out. I agree with you that I'd be more hesitant to cast it against a control deck, but sometimes you just have to. I don't think I have ever really used Diminishing Returns "aggressively" though.

Also, consider that you cast Diminishing Returns against a deck with running four Force of Will. Let's say that they have five cards in play (lands, creatures, etc.) The chances of them drawing Force in their new seven is 43%, and the same goes with 4-of card in a deck. Luckily, we have a whole boatload of protection spells that we either played earlier, or may draw into with Diminishing Returns. Just something to keep in mind.

[Nidd]

Please stop trolling the thread and put up some serious shit. For example: did anyone felt that Carpet of Flowers could be a good card in the sideboard? People here have picked it up and found it very useful to compensate the bad manabase issues.
As RaNDoMxGeSTuReS already pointed out, Carpet is a "slow" card in the sense that we can use it mainly as a Ritual that provides 2 mana when we want to go off and it's pretty useless against most decks.
I loved the card when I was playing DDANT, but TES wants to go off ASAP and with doing that, Carpet of Flowers doesn't help you too much.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

So I've been switching back and forth between 4c/5c TES and UBG ANT.

Folks from your experiences, which has been better against Merfolk?

Legacy is finally starting to pick up in my meta and kiddies are running with Fish. And there's some Vengevine Survival decks floating around and maybe one person playing Countertop.

Not sure which to sleeve up for the tourney next month.

[lorddotm]

Would you like a beer now that I'm done? Possibly for me to take off your shoes?

Wow, why do people call you a dick?

I would love both very much.

[x8eikdls]

If your main concern is beating Fish + UG Survival, play 4 Xantid Swarm somewhere in the 75. The only real answer those decks have to that card is Force of Will. Daze is easy to play around, and Spell Pierce, BEB, and Cursecatcher can't interact with it. Xantid Swarm only really suffers vs Countertop decks, but you said it isn't really played in your meta, so 4 Xantid Swarms are an easy choice.

Max McCall has been suggesting a 4C variant with 4 Swarms MB. His manabase is:

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Seems like a solid choice in your meta. I would definitely play red. Burning Wish is too good to give up.

[GexxX]

I'll be attending a small Legacy Turney next saturday. It's going to be my first experience with legacy in an actual turnament.
I liked Storm Combo in Vintage since early TPS, which I think plays a little bit like TES. And let me tell you I enjoy TES so much, I just want to play it next week.

My Problem is picking the right variant. I've got no real idea what the Meta will be like, but the typical changes recently occured was an increased amount of Survival Decks. non-blue Survival is quite a good matchup, since I usually win Turn2.
I have not had any chance to play blue survival, and thats where I need your help.

What list would you try expecting some Merfolk, some Goblins, Survivals (Vengevine,Ooze,Welder,etc.) and some Bant?
I read you guys would propably play 4 Xantid Swarm and 4Colored for this Matter. Why Is that? Does chant/silence not pretty much do the exact same thing? Except that it hinders your opp. from attacking and adds +1 on Storm?

Thanks in advance & Have a nice Weekend,

GexxX

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

If your main concern is beating Fish + UG Survival, play 4 Xantid Swarm somewhere in the 75. The only real answer those decks have to that card is Force of Will. Daze is easy to play around, and Spell Pierce, BEB, and Cursecatcher can't interact with it. Xantid Swarm only really suffers vs Countertop decks, but you said it isn't really played in your meta, so 4 Xantid Swarms are an easy choice.

Max McCall has been suggesting a 4C variant with 4 Swarms MB. His manabase is:

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Seems like a solid choice in your meta. I would definitely play red. Burning Wish is too good to give up.

This is what I'm currently running with only slight changes to the board (Meltdown and no Dark Confidant).


I'll be attending a small Legacy Turney next saturday. It's going to be my first experience with legacy in an actual turnament.
I liked Storm Combo in Vintage since early TPS, which I think plays a little bit like TES. And let me tell you I enjoy TES so much, I just want to play it next week.

My Problem is picking the right variant. I've got no real idea what the Meta will be like, but the typical changes recently occured was an increased amount of Survival Decks. non-blue Survival is quite a good matchup, since I usually win Turn2.
I have not had any chance to play blue survival, and thats where I need your help.

What list would you try expecting some Merfolk, some Goblins, Survivals (Vengevine,Ooze,Welder,etc.) and some Bant?
I read you guys would propably play 4 Xantid Swarm and 4Colored for this Matter. Why Is that? Does chant/silence not pretty much do the exact same thing? Except that it hinders your opp. from attacking and adds +1 on Storm?

Thanks in advance & Have a nice Weekend,

GexxX

For some reason I prefer having Orim's Chant against Bant.

So I'd say play Bryant's 5c list with chants. I usually run with that when I don't know "exactly" what I'm up against. It's a solid choice.

And eat some buffalo chicken. If you don't, you're probably not a good storm pilot.

[OurSerratedDust]

I'll be attending a small Legacy Turney next saturday. It's going to be my first experience with legacy in an actual turnament.
I liked Storm Combo in Vintage since early TPS, which I think plays a little bit like TES. And let me tell you I enjoy TES so much, I just want to play it next week.

My Problem is picking the right variant. I've got no real idea what the Meta will be like, but the typical changes recently occured was an increased amount of Survival Decks. non-blue Survival is quite a good matchup, since I usually win Turn2.
I have not had any chance to play blue survival, and thats where I need your help.

What list would you try expecting some Merfolk, some Goblins, Survivals (Vengevine,Ooze,Welder,etc.) and some Bant?
I read you guys would propably play 4 Xantid Swarm and 4Colored for this Matter. Why Is that? Does chant/silence not pretty much do the exact same thing? Except that it hinders your opp. from attacking and adds +1 on Storm?

Thanks in advance & Have a nice Weekend,

GexxX

I'd definitely run Xantid Swarms here. When you're playing against tempo decks like merfolk and survival, xantid does a lot for you. For one, it doesn't need to be played the turn you go off, which can be pretty relevant when mana is tight. Against these decks, it stops pretty much everything but cursecatcher. In my testing, an early resolved swarm against Merfolk or Ug Survival almost guarantees a win. It is also pretty strong against bant as well.

I'm a pretty big advocate of it. I say you should goldfish around and play a few test games against the decks you expect and see how it feels.

[x8eikdls]

I'm still running Chant. I play Bryant's 5C list with a modified manabase to accommodate for 4 Xantid Swarms in the board. Im running:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

I think that's the old manabase he was running, not entirely sure.

The decision on which protection spells to run is pretty simple. If your meta is Fish and Survival, play Swarms/Chant/Duress. If your meta is CB variants, play Duress/Thoughtseize/Pyroblast.

[Roel]

Long time reader, first time poster. Hello Source!

I've been playing TES since Mr. Cook created this deck. With 4x plunge to darkness and other fun stuff. Yesterday I attended the National championships in the Netherlands with Bryant's latest list with some small personal preferences (-1 ponder -1 chrome mox, +2 cabal ritual).
I've won some small tournaments and top8'd here and there but never in a big tournament so i was pretty excited to play! The deck ran really smooth for me the whole day and i entered the top8 with 6-1-1 (losing to goblins, really?). In the top 8 i won against Dark Horizons and Show and Tell combo.
The finals were a bit of an anticlimax. I had to play against UBR Ant with 7 mainboard discards and 2x Ad Nauseum. I faced this deck earlier in the tournament and was able to beat it so i thought my chances would be pretty good. I still think i have a positive MU against ANT with my MB chant's and my opponent having discard. Anyways i lost 2 times by drawing slow hands and my opponent playing 5 discard spells in a row.
In the end i walked away with 15 dual lands and 2nd place at this awesome tournament!

PS. Bryant i'm Maykels friend who visited you and let you sign an empty the warrens and a tendrils for me. Thanks for that!

[OurSerratedDust]

Long time reader, first time poster. Hello Source!

I've been playing TES since Mr. Cook created this deck. With 4x plunge to darkness and other fun stuff. Yesterday I attended the National championships in the Netherlands with Bryant's latest list with some small personal preferences (-1 ponder -1 chrome mox, +2 cabal ritual).
I've won some small tournaments and top8'd here and there but never in a big tournament so i was pretty excited to play! The deck ran really smooth for me the whole day and i entered the top8 with 6-1-1 (losing to goblins, really?). In the top 8 i won against Dark Horizons and Show and Tell combo.
The finals were a bit of an anticlimax. I had to play against UBR Ant with 7 mainboard discards and 2x Ad Nauseum. I faced this deck earlier in the tournament and was able to beat it so i thought my chances would be pretty good. I still think i have a positive MU against ANT with my MB chant's and my opponent having discard. Anyways i lost 2 times by drawing slow hands and my opponent playing 5 discard spells in a row.
In the end i walked away with 15 dual lands and 2nd place at this awesome tournament!

PS. Bryant i'm Maykels friend who visited you and let you sign an empty the warrens and a tendrils for me. Thanks for that!

Congrats on the finish!

[practical joke]

I was playing a NL-ANT list beating you in the finals, not playing red.

You had some doubtful hands which I could easily tear apart with my discard spells, and with I was I did enjoy the finals and the fotoshoot afterwards.
Also my list is where it belongs...ANT thread.

and again, grats on your great performance!

[GoboLord]

I've won some small tournaments and top8'd here and there but never in a big tournament so i was pretty excited to play! The deck ran really smooth for me the whole day and i entered the top8 with 6-1-1 (losing to goblins, really?).

Yeah really ;-)
It's not very unlikely, since TES runs tons of non-basiclands and Goblins have manadenial and a pretty fast clock.
Nevertheless, combo is a tough MU for us, but you sure have better MUs.

Anyways: congratulations for the great performance!

[jamis]

So someone at my LGS is starting to play Lands! and asked me to help test with TES. I never really played the match-up before, so I'm looking for advice on how to play it optimally. Pre-board, it's relatively easy since the only relevant cards he has is Zuran Orb, Tabernacle, and Mindslaver (and none of those are really that bad), but I'm having trouble post-board. It's hard to play around Chalice long enough before he can Mindslaver lock me. What should I be doing in this match-up?

[rogue.nine]

^ well the first thing people will want to know is what kind of list you're playing, with sideboard, and what kinda list he's playing and how he plays it. Does he go chalice for 0 on the or chalice for 1? You should be favored even post board if all you have to fight through is a chalice of the void.

[practical joke]

burning wish -< shattering spree.

problem solved.

or if you don't play rainbow lands

burning wish to pulverize and then kick his ass.

[jamis]

Rouge.nine: I'm playing 5-colored TES and he's playing Green/Blue Lands with Mox Dimonds. He plays Chalice for 1 if he has a Mox Dimond, and Chalice for 0 if he doesn't.

Practical Joke: Yeah, I know I need to Burning Wish for Spree, but I have trouble reaching double or triple red before he starts recurring Mindslaver. And even then, he can get back Chalice with Academy Ruins. Should I be mulliganing for Wish or just plan on drawing into it if I don't see it?

[Dark Ritual]

Remember it's best of 3. Even if you lose game 2, you can easily beat them game 3 since you'll play first and you can potentially have a turn 1 win or at least a cantrip into wish into shattering spree for his chalice. Slaver lock should never happen since they need 12 mana every turn to maintain it and that my friend happens very late in the game unless the lands player has a 'god' hand. Zuran orb is relevant though but if he only has chalice but no orb you should win with ease. The only other relevant cards they have are ports and wasteland. Don't be afraid to use moxen aggressively pitching red cards other than wish and the same goes for petal.

[Bryant Cook]

You should also be boarding in two Echoing Truth and the one Wipeaway to avoid only having Burning Wish -> Spree.

[x8eikdls]

You should always win game 1 vs Lands, which means you get to be on the play game 3 if there is one. Chalice in combination with Wastelands can be a beating, but when you're on the play you can lessen the impact of Chalice pretty easily. Play out all your artifact mana on your first turn to get around chalice for 0. It lowers your storm count pre-Ad Nauseam, but casting Ad Nauseam with 2 storm is better than not casting it all. Since Lands puts no pressure on you, your life should be high enough to draw enough cards to build the storm post-Nauseam.

Getting double red for Shattering Spree can be slightly difficult with a chalice on 1, since Rite of Flame is shut off. If you're on the draw, and a chalice is on zero, lotus petal and chrome mox are shut off. I've been running Meltdown in place of Shattering Spree and been pretty happy with it lately. It's only worse vs Canonist (which I have Oust for) and Trinisphere (which is hardly seeing play nowadays).

If you expect more Chalices than hate bears, Echoing Truth should be played over Chain of Vapor in the board. Chalice for 2 is rare, so Echoing Truth is the best bounce spell to answer it. Chain is better vs hate bears because it costs 1 less, allowing you to go off a turn quicker (Turn 1 land go, EOT bounce Teeg, untap win). If you aren't sure, a 2/1 split one way or another doesn't hurt.

[Koito]

Bryant, why you are not playing Krosan Grip anymore?

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant, why you are not playing Krosan Grip anymore?

Koito, why aren't people playing Counter Balance anymore?

With the lack of CounterTop decks, the Krosan Grip slot became rather unnecessary.

[dethangel666]

whats bryants latest list?

[Bryant Cook]

Opening post as always.

[paK0]

So tomorrow is a small tournament and since there is usually a lot of random crap running around I will probably play TES.

I've seen quite some storm lists that play 2 Ad Nauseam (in this deck in the EtW spot). So I wondered, in which meta is the 2nd AN better than the EtW?

[Hitman82]

....every?

[Jim Higginbottom]

There are definitely times its better to run the empty the warrens. Its a meta call. The more I expect maindeck answers like engineered explosives the less likely I am to run etw in the main. That being said I've recently cut the 2nd Ad Nauseam to go back to playing a etw in the main.

[Dia_Bot]

EtW is also very good against counterbalance decks, but I guess these days you wont see many of those anymore. But like Lebron Jim said it's a meta call.

[paK0]

So I played the deck and it worked like a charm:

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [5E] City of Brass
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [US] Duress
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [M10] Silence
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree


Round 1: Mono U Folk
G1: I cantrip like a madman and luckily he is slow. I Duress him T2 and make 18 Goblins on T3 which easily get there.
G2: I keep Gemstone, 2 Mox, LED, 2 Infernal, Brainstorm and draw another BS. T1 I Infernal for an LED and win on turn two.
1-0 2-0

Round 2: 43 Lands
G1: I open with the nuts and turn 2 AN gets there
G2: I keep a shaky hand. Any Manasource would win, but I fail to topdeck one for 3 turns, eventually he plays Intuition for 3 Chalices and my hand is garbage.
G3: He has Chalice for 0 and 3 Wastelands. But I cantrip into more and eventually I hit 2 lands again. EOT bounce Chalice and go off next turn with AN.
2-0 4-1

Round 3: White Weenie
G1: He mulls to 6 but has 2 Chrome Moxen and an Leonin Arbiter T1. I play a cantrip and make 12 Goblins on turn 2 which turn out to be enough.
G2: Canonost and Arbiter lock me out and I can't really do anything.
G3: 4 Ponder and 2 Brainstorms find me 1 BW as business, and I have to use it to grap Shattering Spree for his Canonist. Arbiter and Mindcensor are still on the fied. In my last turn I go Diminishing Returns and win with Tendrils for 22.
3-0 6-2

Round 4: DDFT (we draw to lock up 1&2 but still play it out to see who gets first pick)
G1: He mulls to 4! and I kill him on turn 2 or so.
G2. I draw protection en masse, but he duresses my only action (IT). Eventually he plays IGG, I chant in response and win next turn with AN.
4-0 8-2 (3-0-1 6-2)

I come out on top of the standings regardless, Profit:
A Savannah and my Penis grew a good inch.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

A lightbulb turned on today.

It seems I win more often with the 5c list with chants over the other lists.

Am I crazy? Or is it just luck?

[Shimi]

A lightbulb turned on today.

It seems I win more often with the 5c list with chants over the other lists.

Am I crazy? Or is it just luck?

Me too , I think 5c are a little faster than 3c builds.But I'll test more with 3c manabase(with seize) and see the diference.

I'm also thinking about playing +1 Adn -1EtW , cause 90% of times I BW->EtW if I'm going to win with EtW.

Also played a small(18 players) tournament finishing at 2nd with 4-1 with Bryant List (-1fetch +1 city).
Played against:
Burn(2-0)
Affinity(2-1) , got unlucky here at DR with UUBBR floating.
Bgw(2-0)
Monoblack(2-1) , with Rachet Bomb pos-SB and extirpate MD.
Bg(1-2), I punted here at game2 and lost to Bob drawing only hymn+seize game 3.

People are trying to hateout vegenvines and merfolks decks so BGx decks are poping everywhere, could Bob SB help against them?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Me too , I think 5c are a little faster than 3c builds.But I'll test more with 3c manabase(with seize) and see the diference.

I'm also thinking about playing +1 Adn -1EtW , cause 90% of times I BW->EtW if I'm going to win with EtW.

Also played a small(18 players) tournament finishing at 2nd with 4-1 with Bryant List (-1fetch +1 city).
Played against:
Burn(2-0)
Affinity(2-1) , got unlucky here at DR with UUBBR floating.
Bgw(2-0)
Monoblack(2-1) , with Rachet Bomb pos-SB and extirpate MD.
Bg(1-2), I punted here at game2 and lost to Bob drawing only hymn+seize game 3.

People are trying to hateout vegenvines and merfolks decks so BGx decks are poping everywhere, could Bob SB help against them?

If you know your opponent is on a BG/x list with heavy discard, I'd hold your brainstorms until their turn -- but I'd only do this if I know I don't have a turn 1 win.

I'm not sure if this is correct, but in this matchup wouldn't Dark Confidant just turn on their removal?

[nodahero]

Post board they should be boarding out their removal... The only thing they may keep in is Deed. If they leave in Deed then they have to decide between hitting your artifact mana (usually a waste anyway) or hitting Confidant... If my opponent spends 5 mana to kill my confidant... Well Thats cool with me. Especially since I will have likely netted at least 1 EXTRA card... 2 if you consider them using their Deed.

[emidln]

Lists with more AdN will be faster than lists with fewer AdN, given that acceleration and other business (Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish) stay constant). To my knowledge, most people are still playing the 5c list with ETW in the maindeck despite the fact that turn 2 ETW can often lose to Survival. This would make the 3c lists faster, although it really has very little to do with the manabase and more to do with playing 2 AdN vs 1 AdN and drawing AdN more often.

[jin]

I've been MIA for a bit and now I'm back. I was wondering about the recent changes to Bryant's sideboard and wanted to find a recent tournament report, but I keep clicking into the older ones (there are just so many)!

Can someone link me?

I just thought 3 swarms seem a lot combined with the 2 blasts...
How does swarm work against vengevine's fliers?

Here is a report of a recent small tournament I joined; 12 players in total I think. Sorry about the poor diction and presentation. I'm new to typing these. My main deck is the same as Bryant's right now. My sideboard is:

3x Pyroblast
1x Thoughtseize
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Shattering Spree
1x Empty The Warrens
1x Echoeing Truth
1x Wipe Away
1x Krosan Grip
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Death Mark
1x Grapeshot
1x Chain of Vapors

Meta: Rock, Vengevine Survival, UGB Vengevine Survival, Italian Survival, Fish, RW Sligh, G-Eldrazi, Supreme Blue, Affinity, Belcher, Death and Taxes (I think)

R1: Louis with G-Eldrazi (I win the roll.. teehee)

g1: Opened with LED, LED, AN, mox, wish, land, chant. I decide, what the hell, I'm going all in. I play land, LED, LED, Mox pictching AN, wish cracking LED's nab DR. I drop DR into artifact mana and rits killing him after a wish for tendrils.

g2: Opened with Ponder, BS, LED, pedal, land, land, Duress. I don't board because I have no idea what he is playing. He plays sprawnling land? (making him a 0/1). I play land Ponder, pass. He plays forest, 0/4 wall, pass. I play land, bs into LED, wish, something useless. I take the wish, pass. He plays a mana producing artifact. I play land, Duress (see nothing relevant), LED, LED, pedal, wish cracking LED's which drop tutor in my yard and I nab IGG. I IGGy loop him for the win.

2-0 (1-0)

R2: Steven with RW Sligh (on the draw)

g1: Opened with mox, mox, Ponder, BS, EtW, City of Brass, Flooded Strand (I accidently snap keep thinking he's Zoo, still bad anyway). He fetches basic and plays nothing (I think weird...). I play City of Brass, cantrip, pass. He plays Keldon Murauder. I BS and fetch, pass. He swings, followed by a Lightning Bolt followed by that other 3 damage burn followed by another 3 damage followed by Fireblast.

g2: I have nothing to put in against that. Opened with discomfort. I play Gemstone Mine, pass. Upkeep chant. He tries to suspend Rift Bolt but fails and pass. I play LED, mox, flame, rit, tendrils because I'm scared of a possible Pyrostatic Pillar. He never had piller and pummeled me with multiple Steppe Lynx and Goblin Guide. I couldn't recover.

2-2 (1-1)

R3: Water with Supreme Blue (on the draw)

g1: Opened with fear because I knew he was playing CBT. Sorry I don't really remember this one since I was kinda scared. I keep a safish hand. He hits me with Rhox War Monk once. I chant him, which resolves, so I drop the flames, rits, LED, LED, wish, DR, play 4 more spells before I tendrils him for 22 damage (he fetched).

g2: I board out mox, Ponder, BS and Silence. I board in 2x Pyroblast, Wipe Away, kgrip. I open with blast, mine, fetch, mox, duress, BS, Ponder. I keep seeing protection and cantrips. He plays land pass. I play fetchland, pass. He BS end of turn to which I respond with a fetch. He plays land CB (shit...), so I BS in response. I play land, petal to bait the CB. He doesn't reveal. I mistakenly play my LED (with IT and wish in my hand), but he still doesn't take the bait. I crack petal and tap a land for wish. He flips and I see monk (crap). I grab Thoughtseize. Without anything else to do, I drop the blast on his CB. It resolves. Next turn he plays goyf without a land drop. I play a land and seize him. He has goyf, monk, jitte? and something else I forget. Long story short he smashes my face in with goyfs before I can recover from my misplay and lack of fast mana.

g3: I keep what I board and I'm on the play. We both fetch a bit at the beginning. He stifled my second fetchland because I misplayed and didn't chant him (damn my newbieness). He plays Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony. When I go down to 13 because of my city and his mage, I drop 12 goblins on him. I chant him on the turn he fetched for volcanic and he scoops.

4-3 (2-1)

R4: Jeff with Affinity (on the draw)

g1: Opened with land, petal, cantrip, cantrip, rit, Ad Nauseam, tutor (sweet). He plays artifact land, drum (I think) and passes. I play land, petal tutor for rit because I know it's a race. He plays Mox Opal, ravager? and then Frogmite. I play double Dark Ritual Ad Nauseam... Tendrils.

g2: I side in bounce because I don't want to die too fast taking out mox and Ponder. He plays artifact land, Mox Opal, drum and Frogmite first turn. I play fetchland Ponder. He plays affinity stuff and then hits me with Frogmite. I play land and duress him due to a lack of things to do (I was afraid he was playing AfFOWnity). I take something but eventually he beats me down before I can do anything.

g3: I play mine and pass turn. He does nothing to me because I chant him on the opening turn. I drop 10 goblins, pass. He plays his ravager and Memnites. I swing and he blocks 3 killing his two Memnites and pumping his ravager with a land. I swing relentlessly while his ravager persists to block. He dies to little green men.

6-4 (3-1)

Top4: Hawk with 1-land Belcher (I lose the roll, so we all know how this will turn out)

g1: Opened with land, land, chant, chant, LED, Ponder, petal. He thinks for awhile so I am happy he can't kill me. He empties his hand with two moxen and a goblin canon waiting for me (shit,.. now my chants are useless). I chant him during his upkeep for the following few turns while I cantrip. He top decks his Taiga and I die.

g2: I open with land, land, duress, mox, cantrip, rit, AN. Turn 1 I duress. I take something. He drops a charbelcher again turn one with no kill (He had two.. so I didn't take it). I play land and decide to go all in. I play mox pitch cantrip, rit, AN which lead to lots of mana,.. wishing for a tendrils.

g3: Turn 1 he empties 12 goblins. Turn 2 he hits me. Turn 3 I desparately chant kick. On my turn I find LED so I tutor, crack LED making blue. The tutor finds me Echoeing Truth and I send the tokens back to his hand. I wear myself down with my city and fetchlands and stuff. When I'm at 3, he drops SSG into play and it beats me down for 4 points of damage...

7-6 (3-2)

R6: UGB Vengevine Surival (split)

7-6-2 (3-2-1)

[Jim Higginbottom]

You're usually trying to win using xantid swarm before they've pitched wonder...turns 2 and 3.

[Shimi]

@Emidln: About Chant vs Seize , do you think the fact that seize can't hit topdecked cards against BG/x can make it worst than Chant in this matchup?Or the fact that you can hit Goyf/Bob and making a 1 for 1 instead of 1 for 0 make it better or even?Also imprint Black on mox is better than White.
About 3c manabase , did you miss the fact that sometimes you fetch island to cantrip turn 1 but you can't generate B and R at turn 2 cause you have an island and didn't got a petal/mox?

[alderon666]

g1: Opened with land, land, chant, chant, LED, Ponder, petal. He thinks for awhile so I am happy he can't kill me. He empties his hand with two moxen and a goblin canon waiting for me (shit,.. now my chants are useless). I chant him during his upkeep for the following few turns while I cantrip. He top decks his Taiga and I die.


Isn't waiting until he makes 3 mana and then Chant better than Chanting on upkeep. You could be caught short when he drops something like Petal, Land, Pyretic Ritual, Spirit Guide into Belcher (no chance to Chant after Pyretic). That will only be effective if he plays a LED before the whole thing.

[jin]

You're usually trying to win using xantid swarm before they've pitched wonder...turns 2 and 3.

ic.. so it's useless after that.. do you happen to have a link to a recent tournament report I could look at?


Isn't waiting until he makes 3 mana and then Chant better than Chanting on upkeep. You could be caught short when he drops something like Petal, Land, Pyretic Ritual, Spirit Guide into Belcher (no chance to Chant after Pyretic). That will only be effective if he plays a LED before the whole thing.

sorry, it wasn't clear,.. he had two moxen and a Goblin Charbelcher in play already,.. so anyone mana would kill me. unless the Taiga was in less than 10 cards away.

[gustha]

So hi to everyone, I recently left aside control decks and switched to combo decks, with decent results. Still, decent is not good, and I'm trying to improve my playstyle and skill with the deck. I'm preparing for a tournament which features the top24 players of the magic league, and I'm tuning my sideboard/mainboard to face the meta. I play this list:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Volcanic Island
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Chrome Mox
3 Silence
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

The meta is really full of vengevines, ichorid and merfolk/zoo, and it has close to 0 cb.decks, so I switched to 7 chants to fight better and have more protections ready to hand. I also play 15 lands to better counterbalance wasteland effects. I expect to see a lot of vengevines, ichorid too, some merfolk. A couple of B-based decks, some zoo maybe. At least 1 ugr faeries, maybe a reanimator (how is the reanimator MU?) and a dreadstill. What should my sb look like? It's like this, atm:

SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
1 ?!?

The real downside I found in playing tes, unlike ant, is that bwish occupies several useful spots. I can't fint in dark confindant e.g., though I see room for pyroblasts. I love the SB infernal tutor, I saw grapeshot in Cook's sb and I wondered how useful it is compared to, say, deathmark or even infest.

Any suggest would be welcome! thanks.

[practical joke]

I would play Xantid swarm (side) against merfolk and vengevine, since it's extremely strong against those decks.

[gustha]

I considered swarm to. Truth is, against those decks I fear most not having mana to combo off due to land dirsuption, since I already play 7 MD chants to avoid counterspells and slow them down a bit (and there's always LED to bait a force, If I can afford it). Sure, If I could pack a couple of extirpate vs vengevines and other combo decks, it would be great as well... The fact is Xantd becomes good in 3+-of, and I'm not sure I want to leave out carpet of flowers.
Are there enough bouncers, in your opinion? How do you see deathmark vs infest of grapeshot? (despite the fact that in marginal cases, deathmark can hit goyf and iona other than the classical targets, i.e. MM, canonist and teeg which get hit by infest as well?)

[Hobtuse]

Hi this is my first post after registering although I have been a regular visitor to the Source for some time. I would like to share my decklist and ask for any comments/improvements I could possibly make.

I top4 split a regular legacy tournament on Sunday with this list with a local meta of Belcher, Madness Survival and Merfolk.

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Island
1 [ZEN] Swamp
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [M10] Duress
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [B] Tropical Island
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence

[Doomsday]

Hi this is my first post after registering although I have been a regular visitor to the Source for some time. I would like to share my decklist and ask for any comments/improvements I could possibly make.

I top4 split a regular legacy tournament on Sunday with this list with a local meta of Belcher, Madness Survival and Merfolk.

// Lands
1 [ZEN] Island
1 [ZEN] Swamp
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [M10] Duress
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [B] Tropical Island
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence

I play something pretty close to this so I don't have much useful deckbuilding advice other than: You have no basic mountains maindeck or sideboard, but do have basic swamp and basic island, so you most definitely want 4 Polluted Delta before 4 Scalding Tarn.

[Hobtuse]

I play something pretty close to this so I don't have much useful deckbuilding advice other than: You have no basic mountains maindeck or sideboard, but do have basic swamp and basic island, so you most definitely want 4 Polluted Delta before 4 Scalding Tarn.

I couldn't find the 3rd/4th Polluted Delta so I had to use 2 Misty Rainforests to fill in instead. Ideally they would be Polluted Deltas..

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Have people figured out Preordain is better than ponder?

[deviant]

In case someone is counting, it's +1 nats top8 for TES.

I played McCalls list as its only a few cards off of the one I've been mtgo'ing with for the last 2 months or so, and those differences are due to mtgo not having some cards I'd like to play so I guess calling it McCalls list is mostly for the ease of reference.

Went 5-0-2 in the swiss beating burn, survival, reanimator (really wasnt expecting to face iona, but it's not that bad), stiflenought and at some point some emo green player who had seemingly endless discards and no beaters.

Then I punted my top8 match (I keep up this tradition of punting one game every tournament) and then mulled to 5 and drew all lands in G2. Against ww, in case someone was under the impression my opponent had something to do with my loss. Well, yeah, he didn't. It was all me.

I would have faced a rather soft mu in UGw survival and then another cakewalk in some GW deck, had I not ****ed up.

The list is awesome, I wouldn't change a thing about it. I suggest you try it out if you haven't already.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'm probably going to rock the 5c list with chants Monday for our monthly Legacy tournament. Wish me luck :)

And I received an early birthday present.. a foil Brainstorm :)

On a more constructive note - if I know there's going to be a lot of Hymn to Tourach and Duress effects running around, should I run Dark Confidant?

I'm seriously thinking about it.

Comments? Advice?

[jin]

I'm probably going to rock the 5c list with chants Monday for our monthly Legacy tournament. Wish me luck :)

And I received an early birthday present.. a foil Brainstorm :)

On a more constructive note - if I know there's going to be a lot of Hymn to Tourach and Duress effects running around, should I run Dark Confidant?

I'm seriously thinking about it.

Comments? Advice?

It is agreed upon that you odn'tneed confidant,.. The strategy is drop artifact mana into play and wait to launch ad nauseam at them since discard strats do nothing when ad nauseam cna replenish your hand,.. so you only really need something like.. LED (in play), rit, infernal tutor + one more mana (could be land, could be petal, could be anything) => ad naeaseam

[deviant]

An active bob doesnt exactly hurt you there. (you know what I mean..)
If you expect combo decks, a few confidants are perfectly serviceable.

I've been pretty happy with them, and I've had some number in my combo decks sb's for almost a year now I think.

[Occam]

Have people figured out Preordain is better than ponder?

Depends on your build. The situations in which Preordain is situationally better than Ponder (1 very needed card, 2 mediocre ones without shuffle effect after Ponder) come up more often when you go 5c as compared to when you use a more FT-ish manabase. If you play enough fetchlands to avoid situations where Preordain is better via judicious use of fetches, Ponder > Preordain, always.

@ Randomgestures:

You don't need Bob in sideboards. In control matchups like Landstill, especially white builds, they typically leave removal in due to Swarms and because they have plenty of other dead cards to side out first. Bob is of course terrible against aggro and situationally useful against combo. Problem is that many other cards break the combo matchup open far more than bob does. Decks packing discard often pack removal as well, and while they're more likely to side removal out than blue control decks, the matchup is already pretty winnable without bob.

Discard matchups are played kind of how you would play against Stax, laying down artifact mana to avoid getting blown out by discard. The most straightforward way to win is via IGG, so allowing burning wish to be discarded and casting IT to get extra artifact mana when you can't go IT -> adn is usually the way to go. You then win once you can go IT -> adn or when you draw your second tutor effect with wish either in hand or grave to go BW -> IGG loop -> BW/IT for ToA or IT -> BW -> IGG -> IT -> ToA. You won't need max storm most of the time as discard heavy decks typically play bob and fetches. A mini tendrils when you lay out artifact mana is good to set the above up too.

The aim post board is to stay as bomb heavy as possible, with IGG typically remaining in board.