[Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm [Archive]

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Bryant Cook

09-25-2009, 03:34 PM

The EPIC Storm

I. Overview
II. History
III. Decklist
IV. Card Choices
a.) Manabase
b.) Acceleration and Mana
c.) Tutors and Draw
d.) Win Conditions and Bombs
e.) Protection/Utility
f.) Sideboard Options
V. Cards That Didn’t Make the Cut
a.) Manabase
b.) Acceleration and Mana
c.) Tutors and Draw
d.) Win Conditions and Bombs
e.) Protection/Utility
f.) Close Cuts
VI. Reasons to Play The EPIC Storm Over Other Storm Combo
a.) ANT – Ad Nauseam Tendrils
b.) Belcher
c.) Doomsday Variants
d.) SI – Spanish Inquisition
VII. Sample Hands and Sample Plays
a.) Sample Hand One
b.) Sample Hand Two
c.) Sample Hand Three
d.) Sample Hand Four
e.) Sample Hands For You
VIII. Additional Data
a.) Diminishing Returns Percentages
b.) Infernal Tutor Percentages
IX. Match-ups
a.) Countertop
b.) Merfolk
c.) Goblins
d.) Ichorid
e.) Landstill (UWx or BUG)
f.) Zoo
g.) Chalice Aggro
h.) Reanimator
i.) New Horizons
j.) Team America
k.) Painter
l.) UW Stoneforge
m.) UGx Natural Order
n.) BW/x Discard/Junk
X. Additional Information
a.) Readings
b.) Major Tournament reports from TES players
c.) Feature matches including The EPIC Storm
d.) Articles discussing The EPIC Storm
e.) Other

I. Overview

The EPIC Storm was created by me – Bryant Cook, along with assistance from The E.P.I.C. Syndicate.

The EPIC Storm (TES) is a deck with win conditions that use mechanic storm; mainly Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens. Lists play Grapeshot in the sideboard as utility to get around hate and as an alternative win condition. The deck’s first and primary goal is to reach nine storm then cast Tendrils of Agony; however, it’s not always that simple. Often there’s problems in counter magic or not having enough resources, rest assured it’s not a problem because of Empty the Warrens - our secondary win condition. The EPIC Storm is a deck based around Tutors which are found in Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor. One of the deck’s strengths is the utilization and flexibility of Burning Wish. The EPIC Storm really came to power with the release of Coldsnap and Timespiral, when it received another powerful acceleration piece and win condition. Recently, the deck has changed its face due to a new powerful storm engine in Ad Nauseam. The EPIC Storm has gone from a niche deck to a powerhouse played all around the world, with some impressive Top 8’s (see reports below).

II. History

Back in march of 2006, I became fascinated with storm combo playing everything from Nausea in legacy to Pitch Long in Vintage. I began realizing flaws in each and every deck I tested, which caused me to shelve each one of them. Although, along this road I started to see the strengths and weaknesses in each deck became apparent. I decided I’d try and add all of the strengths into a single deck and have the fewest weaknesses that I could. Then in August 2006, I posted my first version of the deck ShLong (Shitlist Long) (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3948&highlight=shlong). The deck opted to use creatures such as Priest of Gix and Trinket Mage (to find Lion’s Eye Diamond) for acceleration; Helm of Awakening and Second Sunrise were also used to “Go crazy”. As time went on I created a creatureless list about six months after my original incarnation, at this point in time I began to realize how creatures were under performing. Right about this time is when a new set was released, Coldsnap.

Coldsnap was a huge step in the right direction when I saw the card Rite of Flame. Rite of Flame was a consistent ritual effect that had potential to be equal to or greater than Dark Ritual. This card replaced Priest of Gix, which was only good with a Helm of Awakening or two in play.

With the printing of Time Spiral, TES gained 2 new Storm weapons - Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens. Grapeshot was the secondary win condition that I set eyes on, not Empty the Warrens. It wasn’t until much later that it became apparent that it wasn’t really needed; Grapeshot generally was used to kill creatures like Meddling Mage and True Believer. Now Grapeshot is a sideboard card used to win around problem cards such as Meddling Mage or Runed Halo. Adam Barnello (Nightmare) was the first person to recommend Empty the Warrens in TES, The EPIC Syndicate saw a serious powerhouse in this card. It improved all of the difficult matchups for the deck, Landstill, Threshold, Solidarity, and even Mono Blue Control. With Empty the Warrens, you had the option of keeping hands that couldn’t or weren’t capable of creating storm ten. With Empty the Warrens you have the option of putting 6-10 goblins into play turn 1 and ride them to victory. Many of the decks at the time weren’t prepared for that many creatures one turn one and very rarely played anything that wasn’t spot removal. Because of this these blue decks were becoming much more favorable.

Later on in time I started to realize that The EPIC Storm was starting to become inconsistent with its draws. Cards such as Brainstorm, Careful Study, Serum Visions and Grim Tutor were tried at this time. Brainstorm ended up filling this niche nicely even with very few shuffle effects. Sometime after I won the second Mana Leak Open, The EPIC Storm became hated on. Cards such as Xantid Swarm and Defense Grid were no longer getting the job done. An outsider was called – Orim’s Chant, Chant to this very day is still one of the most powerful cards in TES. With new set after new set, cards are tested and added. Thoughtsieze was printed and ran for sometime over Duress. Cards such as Draw 4’s – Cruel Bargain, Infernal Contract, and Slithermuse were being used as additional bombs to compliment Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains.

Then Ad Nauseam happened… Ad Nauseam changed the name and face of storm combo all on its own. Lists were thrown everywhere, however, The EPIC Storm adapted like many other decks to the card. First extra storm engines were shelved, Diminishing Returns, Slithermuse, and Infernal Contract. Empty the Warrens was originally shelved with the other cards, but was later added back into the main deck because of its strength and ability to beat blue decks. Thoughtsieze’s life loss was too much, Duress once again found a spot in the main deck. Simian Spirit Guides were cut for less damage for Ad Nauseam.

While the set M10 was being spoiled and right before it’s release, Wizards of the Coast made some rules changes. Two of these rules effected The EPIC Storm, the first rule being that Wishes could no longer retrieve cards that were removed from the game or “exiled”. Meaning the deck can no longer remove our Rite of Flame on a Chrome Mox and Burning Wish for them later. The second rule hurt the EPIC Storm quite badly, but it’s survived and gone on. This new rule being that we can no longer float mana through the upkeep into the draw step to cast spells. Meaning players can no longer break Lion’s Eye Diamond in our upkeep to cast Ad Nauseam during our draw step. This made Mystical Tutor much worse, going from a 3-4 of in many lists down to 2 or none. With the lack of Mystical Tutors in the deck, slots such as Chain of Vapor became weaker. Chain of Vapor left the main deck because of this and Empty the Warrens found it’s old home in the main deck.

With the banning of Mystical Tutor, the 4th Infernal Tutor found it’s way back into the main deck along with Silence (4th Orim's Chant Effect). Keeping threats in the deck was important, players don't want to be stuck searching for cards during their opening turns. Players should be focused on winning, not destroying Gemstone Mines playing cantrips. A new mana base was eventually included consisting of four fetchlands and three duals, including five color lands. However, Simian Spirit Guide had to leave in order to make this happen. Below is the current incarnation of the EPIC Storm…

III. Decklists

The EPIC Storm
Decklist as of 02/16/12

4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
3 Orim’s Chant
2 Silence
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Pyroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipeaway
1 Silent Departure
1 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Past in Flames

IV. Card Choices

a.) Manabase - Since The EPIC Storm is technically a five color deck, it needs to able to support all five colors. I ported the Grim Long mana base to Legacy, obviously removing Tolarian Academy and adding the Legacy legal lands – Underground Sea and Volcanic Island. Forbidden Orchard and Undiscovered Paradise were cut because of their drawbacks. Often games and sometimes even rounds were lost because of these drawbacks. I decided to cut Simian Spirit Guide due to damage on Ad Nauseam and wanted more lands, since there aren't any other great five color lands I added four “fetchlands” to go with the few duals. These “Fetchlands” were Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire, and Scalding Tarn.

b.) Acceleration and Mana - 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Lion’s Eye Diamond, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Chrome Mox, and 3 Rite of Flame are a necessity. There has been discussion to where the fourth Rite of Flame belongs. I personally believe that Rite of Flame in the sideboard is not worth it. Players are better off increasing potential turn 1 and 2 wins. Another debate for fast-mana is the number of Chrome Mox, I believe the best chance of winning on turn 1 and the best chance of winning after an Ad Nauseam is with the most possible Chrome Moxen. If Ad Nauseam doesn’t reveal 0cc mana players must pass the turn. The deck needs to play the maximum amount of 0cc artifacts.

c.) Tutors and Draw - Burning Wish along with Infernal Tutor were auto includes into The EPIC Storm because well, paired with Lion’s Eye Diamond they might be the most broken plays in Legacy. For a while Plunge into Darkness was included but it became apparent that it was a weakness in the deck. Plunge into Darkness was later replaced with Ponder. Which happens to be Brainstorm 5-8 in The EPIC Storm, digging for tutor effects is huge in TES. Don't forget that with Ponder it is possible to shuffle away and draw a new card. Turn one, Brainstorm or Ponder? If it’s possible the hand can win on turn 1 with 1 or 2 different cards Brainstorm is the right card; otherwise Ponder. With the banning of Mystical Tutor, people are looking at Pre-Ordain. I think it's just better to play the additional Infernal Tutor main deck to increase threat density and then side it out making Infernal Tutor a Burning Wish target.

d.) Win Conditions and Bombs - Tendrils of Agony is the primary win condition - a must include. Empty the Warrens was a huge addition to The EPIC Storm, for a while it was a 3 of in the main deck. However, times change and the metagame adapted to Empty the Warrens. Players had to cut back, currently Warrens is in the deck as a one of. Tutors in The EPIC Storm are used mainly to find one of two cards- Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens. Since this format has no Yawgmoth’s Will, I guess T.E.S will settle for the next best thing in Yawgmoth’s Bargain in Ad Nauseam. This card is often our “engine” in the combo. There’s also our former engines in Diminishing Returns and [Yawgmoth’s W]Ill-Gotten Gains in the sideboard to help in sticky situations or if Burning Wish is in hand. By engine I mean they ramp our storm count high enough for the deck to win the game, since chaining Infernal Tutors won’t always win the game. People like to use Ad Nauseam because it’s easy, however, not always necessary. Don’t forget the deck can always Ill-Gotten Gains loop to win.

e.) Protection/Utility - In the early days of The EPIC Storm the deck relied on laying down a Xantid Swarm and winning the turn after. Blue decks adapted to answer X/1 creatures on turn 1, meaning that the deck had to adapt to compete. Xantid was cut for Orim’s Chant, but is often in and out of the main deck to compliment Orim’s Chant. Also complimenting Chant is Duress, Duress is there to protect Orim’s Chant or to take problematic cards like Counterbalance out of the opponent’s hand. Out of the sideboard the deck plays Red Elemental Blast and/or Pyroblast to deal with Force of Will on Orim’s Chant mainly. However, it can also be used to kill a Counterbalance- a huge threat to The EPIC Storm. Recently with the printing of Silence, many people opt for a split between Orim’s Chant and Silence because of cards that name cards, such as – Runed Halo, Meddling mage, Cabal Therapy, ect.

f.) Sideboard Options – The sideboard needs to be a mixture between business, utility, and cards to be sided in. For business theres two win conditions, Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens, and then two Storm engines in Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains, these are necessary because they provide a storm engine that doesn’t require life. They also are sorceries while Ad Nauseam is not, meaning they can be Wished for.

For Utility there’s Duress, Meltdown, Shattering Spree, and Grapeshot. Sometimes players don’t draw protection, so Burning Wish might as well find it. Other times there’s problematic artifacts, T.E.S doesn’t play anything wishable to destroy Enchantments. This is because there are no Enchantments game one that the deck cares about besides Counterbalance, Counterbalance will just counter whatever kills it. That and there isn’t a great card for the deck to remove Enchantments with. Then there’s Grapeshot, Grapeshot is used to kill problematic creatures as well as provide an alternative win condition for cards such as Runed Halo. People are always trying to play Pyroclasm over this card, it’s just wrong. Grapeshot often provides outs where Pyroclasm doesn’t, where Tendrils wasn’t able to finish off an opponent, Grapeshot steps in to hit them for that additional few damage. Often the deck will draw hands with Tendrils and a Wish, Wish for Grapeshot, play out the hand and cast them both. Take away the luck element of Storm Engines and just win. There’s other scenarios too, but I personally use it most to showboat up to storm twenty and Wish for it.

Lastly, cards that are sided in. I like to play bounce because it’s versatile in dealing with whatever random card opponents bring in to hinder chances of comboing. For bounce there’s 2 Echoing truth and a Wipeaway, Wipeaway will answer that pesky Counterbalance. Currently there’s four cards for blue, 2 Xantid Swarm and 2 Pyroblast. These slots are often in flux for the metagame.

V. Cards That Didn’t Make The Cut

a.) Manabase - Tarnished Citadel, Undiscovered Paradise, Forbidden Orchard, Glimmervoid, Cabal Pit, Tomb of Urami, Chrystal Vein.

b.) Acceleration and Mana – Cabal Ritual, Elvish Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Manamorphose, Channel of the Suns, Priest of Gix, Culling the Weak, Helm of Awakening, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, Tinder Wall, Mox Diamond, Carpet of Flowers.

c.) Tutors and Draw – Mystical Tutor, Death Wish, Grim Tutor, Plunge into Darkness, Rhystic Tutor, Spoils of the Vault, Pre-Ordain, Infernal Contract, Cruel Bargain, Lim-Dul’s Vault, Meditate, Trinket Mage, Diabolic Intent, Night’s Whisper, Dark Confidant, Sensei’s Diving Top.

d.) Win Conditions and Bombs – Slithermuse, Doomsday, Storm Entity, Goblin Charbelcher, Hunting Pack.

e.) Protection/Utility- Wipe Away, Washout, Repeal, Snap, Rushing River, Cabal Therapy, Inquisition of Kozilek, Sudden Death, Pyroclasm, Tranquility, Cleanfall, Reverent Silence, Hull Breach.

f.) Close Cuts- Thoughtsieze, Cabal Ritual, Abeyance, Krosan Grip, Deathmark, Chain of Vapor, Red Elemental Blast, Silence.

There are some cards I choose to leave off this list because they we’re tried a very long time ago and didn’t work out, then some others that just seemed ridiculous.

VI. Reasons to Play The EPIC Storm Over Other Storm Combo

a.) Why play The EPIC Storm (TES) over Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT)? TES has no clear cut game plan; it’s very versatile and can end things many ways – unlike ANT. Ad Nauseam Tendrils is often forced to go for Ad Nauseam because lists don’t play Orim’s Chant (some lists do, but few). Without Orim’s Chant their Ill-Gotten Gains is shut off. Leaving them with one path to victory. TES because it plays five color lands has all of the best protection available (Orim’s Chant, Xantid Swarm, Duress, and Pyroblast), while various ANT lists play 2 of the 4, it’s hard for them to play all of these without destroying their mana base. Playing four colors on duals and fetches can hurt. Especially against the tempo decks of today, the stifle wasteland package already hurts ANT, while it doesn’t affect TES as much because there’s less Stifle targets. TES I feel has an edge on ANT because of the speed factor also, TES plays less land and more acceleration in order to win faster. While ANT goes for a more controlling feeling against blue (Which always doesn’t work), post-board the deck have 2 less protection spells than ANT. A marginal difference, I’ll take speed and protection against just two more protection spells. The most important reason to play TES over ANT is Burning Wish and it’s raw power. Burning Wish acts as an Infernal Tutor that doesn’t need Hellbent that can get answers to help out in sticky situations. Where ANT lists play more cantrips such as preordain.

b.) Why play The EPIC Storm (TES) over Belcher? TES is fast, resilient, and has main deck protection and can fight through the hate. Many people played Belcher for awhile because it’s a fundament turn faster than TES, until they realized the unstableness and how fragile the deck was; The EPIC Storm doesn’t have to go for Empty the Warrens. Belcher often can’t choose what win condition to go for; it’s whatever it draws, not with TES. The player chooses between Tendrils or Empty the Warrens and sometimes Grapeshot. Because of this you will win more games due to the fact there is so many Engineered Explosives running around. Belcher doesn’t play any main deck protection whatsoever; here in TES there are 4 Orim’s Chant/Silence and 3/4 Duress to make sure the deck has a fighting chance to beat Countertop. One last reason to play TES over Belcher is that if the deck somehow manages to fizzle The EPIC Storm recovers a lot faster than Belcher thanks to storm engines in Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains and mainly Diminishing Returns.

c.) Why play The EPIC Storm (TES) over Doomsday combo? Mainly because Sensei’s Diving Top is a slow card in nature, which means that Doomsday combo in nature is slow. Slow combo decks aren’t good because decks like Zoo or Goblins now stand a chance, this is a mistake that players learned from Solidarity. On top of being slow, there are many “pass the turn” piles. Losing half of your life to Doomsday and passing the turn is a very dangerous thing to do but is necessary sometimes with Doomsday variants. My largest problem with the current Doomsday decks is their alternative routes to beating Countertop. Using a comes into play tapped land, forces a player to pass the turn, now the combo is susceptible to wasteland and stifle. Increasing the amount hate against the deck is just something I don’t think is worth doing. TES is faster, doesn’t pass the turn, and doesn’t lose to a Wasteland.

d.) Why play The EPIC Storm (TES) over Spanish Inquisition (SI) variants? SI variants are very much like the belcher decks where their turn one percentages are higher, but they’re more likely to lose to Force of Will and other blue cards. This comes from not playing protection, something TES prides it’s self on. SI can also lose from not drawing a zero casting cost creature to sacrifice to Culling the Weak or Diabolic Intent. These decks relate to the Doomsday Variants in that they need to lose half of their life in order to win, sometimes, multiple times in order to draw a Tendrils of Agony. Meaning that a well-timed Lightning Bolt/Fireblast could take them out of the game. Because these decks rely on draw four cards such as Infernal Contract and Cruel Bargain the fizzle rates are much higher than a resolved Ad Nauseam from TES.

VII. Sample Hands and Sample Plays
“Keep, Mulligan, or I’d play it like this…”

a.) Sample Hand One:
Underground Sea, Brainstorm, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Chrome Mox, Gemstone Mine.
[Keep]

Underground Sea, Dark Ritual (BBB), Lion’s Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox (Brainstorm), Infernal Tutor – Break Lion’s Eye Diamond for BBB (BBBB). Tap Mox. Ad Nauseam.

Ad Nauseam (Revealing: City of Brass (20), Brainstorm (19), Ponder (18), Empty the Warrens (14), Dark Ritual (13), Rite of Flame (12), Burning Wish (10), Lotus Petal (10), Chrome Mox (10), Rite of Flame (9), Infernal Tutor (7), Burning Wish (5). Stop.)

Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox (Empty the Warrens), Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, Tendrils of Agony for 22.

b.) Sample Hand Two:
Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame.
[Keep]

Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor (RBBB), Empty the Warrens (10 Goblins).

c.) Sample Hand Three:
Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame.
[Keep]

Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish (RUUU), Diminishing Returns.
(Remove 10 cards from the game)

Scalding Tarn, Underground Sea, Lotus Petal , Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony.

Lotus Petal , Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony for 20.

d.)Sample Hand Four:
Scalding Tarn, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Tendrils of Agony, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish.
[Keep]

Scalding Tarn, Volcanic Island, Chrome Mox (Imprint: Tendrils of Agony), Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish. Ill-Gotten Gains, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Tendrils of Agony for 24.

e.) Sample Hands For You

1.) Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, Duress, Infernal Tutor, Lion’s Eye Diamond.

2.) Underground Sea, Bloodstained Mire, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Duress, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor.

3.) Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Scalding Tarn, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame.

4.) Polluted Delta, Ponder, Ponder, Brainstorm, Gemstone Mine, Burning Wish, Burning Wish.

5.) Ad Nauseam, Ponder, Brainstorm, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Volcanic Island, Polluted Delta.

6.) Duress, Xantid Swarm, Gemstone Mine, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Burning Wish.

7.) Lion’s Eye Diamond, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens, Lotus Petal.

8.) Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Gemstone Mine, Infernal Tutor, Chrome Mox, Duress.

9.) Xantid Swarm, Orim’s Chant, Underground Sea, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Chrome Mox, Tendrils of Agony.

10.) Duress, Tendrils of Agony, Gemstone Mine, Bloodstained Mire, Dark Ritual, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Burning Wish.

VIII. Additional Data

a.) Diminishing Returns Percentages (By OurSerratedDust)
Situation
-One Burning Wish is exiled.
-You have two tapped gold lands in play (Gemstone Mine, and City of Brass.)
-The opponent is at 20 life.
-The storm count is four (including DR.)
-You are at a safe life total for Ad Nauseam.
-You haven't played a land yet this turn.

Mana Floating/Win Percentage

None: 18%
U: 38%
R: 42%
B: 42%
UU: 54%
UR: 66%
UB: 66%
RR: 54%
RB: 66%
BB: 60%

(U/B/R): 48%
(U/B/R) (U/B/R): 70%
U (U/B/R): 66%
R (U/B/R): 70%
B (U/B/R): 70%

b.) Infernal Tutor Percentages

4 Infernal Tutor in deck

33.6280% 1 infernal drawn, 4 in deck, 7 card hand, 60 card deck

5.9344% 2 infernal drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 card deck

0.3804% 3 drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 cards

0.0072% 4 drawn 4 in deck 7 card hand 60 cards

= 39.95% chance of drawing total

3 Infernal Tutor in deck

28.1882% 1 drawn 3 in deck 7 card hand 60 card deck

3.2525% 2 drawn 3 in deck 7 cards 60 card deck

0.1023% 3 drawn 3 in deck 7 cards 60 card deck

= 31.5430% chance of drawing

Bryant Cook

09-25-2009, 03:34 PM

IX. Match-Ups

a.) Countertop - (45%-55%)

- Does the hand have protection? What game is it? If it’s game one concentrate on winning before Counterbalance hits the table. Generally an open hand Duress helps out in this match-up taking away a Counterbalance. If the hand doesn’t have a Duress, Xantid, or Orim’s Chant there’s always Burning Wish for Duress. Keep in mind that on top of Counterbalance they have Force of Will, Mental Misstep, and Daze. It’s a rough match-up, but if the opening hand has a Duress and/or Xantid Swarm it makes the match-up a bit easier.

- What is the path to victory? Is it Ad Nauseam or Ill-Gotten Gains off of Burning Wish? Cast Ad Nauseam at a safe life total, it can be very risky to cast at a life total lower that 13, any lower and the risk of killing yourself becomes much greater. This is a situation where Ill-Gotten Gains comes in handy. Although, without Orim’s Chant or Xantid Swarm, Ill-Gotten Gains can be risky, your opponent can get back Force of Will or Mental Misstep. Lastly, there’s Empty the Warrens, this card really shines in this match-up. Most lists don’t often play an answer and it comes down before Counterbalance, consider it an easy plan B if it isn’t possible to Ad Nauseam in this match-up.

+3 Pyroblast
+1 Wipeaway
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Orim's Chant

b.) Merfolk – (50%)

- Unlike Countertop variants, Merfolk doesn’t play Counterbalance. What Merfolk does play is Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Daze, Cursecatcher, and Spell Pierce (out of the sideboard). Xantid Swarm absolutely shines in this match-up, if it’s possible to play him out and get him to stick; it’s difficult to lose the game. A key to winning this match-up is to be aware of their “soft” counterspells in Daze, Cursecatcher, and Spell Pierce. Play those Dark Rituals and Rite of Flames first, don’t try to cast that Orim’s Chant with two lands untapped. Empty the Warrens can be good in this match-up since they don’t play removal, but they do play a bunch of Creatures. This means that if Empty the Warrens is the play, make sure it’s for ten or more Goblins to get the job done.

- Post board the deck brings in three Pyroblast to combat their counterspells. All Merfolk brings in is Spell Pierce, don’t worry about boarding in Echoing Truth for permanent based hate.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox

c.) Goblins - (70%)

-This match-up is pretty basic; game one all the only thing Goblins has is wasteland. Don’t walk into it, hold the land in your hand if need be. Play cantrips, find more land or artifact mana. Don’t wait for the sake of waiting because they’re not putting on pressure, life total points matter for Ad Nauseam in this match-up. If Burning Wish happens to be in hand, Ill-Gotten Gains is a very good option since it doesn’t require a life total.

-Games two and three, watch out for Mind Break Trap. If they’re playing R/b watch out for Thoughtsieze and Cabal Therapy too. Some lists might also play Chalice of the Void or Pyrostatic Pillar in addition to the previous cards mentioned. It’s acceptable to play out artifact mana to avoid it getting discarded, countered, or making you take damage.

Sideboarding
-3 Orim’s Chant
-1 Silence
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Wipeaway
+1 Duress

d.) Ichorid (60-65%)

-This match-up is based on who can win faster – much like the combo mirror. Watch out for Cabal Therapy/Unmask, this means playing down artifact mana early or holding Brainstorm to hide crucial spells. Orim’s Chant can be used proactively in this match-up, use it on their upkeep in early turns or later on use it to stop massive attacks. What T.E.S doesn’t want to see on the other side of the table is Iona coming into play off of a Dread Return.

-Postboard, watch out for Leyline of Sanctity, that’ll force the deck to win with Empty the Warrens tokens against Bridge from Below Tokens. I don’t see this happening. But luckily, Ad Nauseam is still an option. Cast Ad Nauseam and reveal, hopefully an Echoing Truth will appear to bounce Leyline. Echoing Truth can also be used to bounce a bunch of Zombies in a squeeze. I’d be weary of Firestorm, I’d count the number of cards in their hand and how many targets are in play. Then I would cast Ad Nauseam and try to stop around the number plus one.

Sideboarding
-2 Silence
+2 Echoing Truth

e.) Landstill (UWx or BUG) (60%)

- The deck wants to sculpt a hand that can plow through 2-3 counterspells, meaning finding a few Duress/Chant effects and run them over. Landstill doesn’t create a threatening clock or have any cards such as counterbalance that are going to be deadly if they hit. Don’t be afraid to sit underneath standstill. If Tendrils of Agony is in hand, I’d try to create a hand that uses their countermagic for storm then to just lay the Tendrils. Another option is going for a speedy kill, if Landstill doesn’t stop the deck, great! If they do manage to stop the combo, there’s an entire game to recover since their clock is non-existent. It’s not uncommon for these decks to be playing Engineered Explosives or Pernicious Deed, meaning Empty the Warrens probably isn’t the greatest option. Neither is putting down artifact mana to get blown up.

-Postboard, be prepared for anything from Runed Halo, Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, addition counterspells in negate, and Rule of Law. All of this permanent based hate means sideboarding in the bounce spells. It's either boarding the Blasts or the bounce, you don't want to bring in both.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast / +2 Echoing Truth, +1 Wipe Away
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder

f.) Zoo (75%)

- Pretty basic and simple match-up, don’t go low enough on Ad Nauseam for them to Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast or Price of Progress for that matter. Beware of main deck Gaddeck Teeg as it’s seeming to become a popular trend especially with Green Sun’s Zenith.

- The biggest piece of hate they’ll have is Gaddeck Teeg and/or Ethersworn Cannonist, after that they may have Mind Break Trap. What T.E.S players should so is bring in bounce and the extra Duress. As Duress can take away Burn spells as well as Mind Break Trap, where Xantid and Orim’s under perform in this match-up.

Sideboarding
-3 Orim’s Chant
-2 Silence
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Silent Departure
+1 Duress

g.) Chalice Aggro (40-45%)

- By far the deck’s worst match-up, with Trinisphere, Chalice, Sphere of Resistance, and other problematic cards, there’s not much the deck can do other than win as past as possible. This is one of those match-ups that Empty the Warrens is golden. One thing I’ve done in the past is win with Trinisphere on the table. Let them kill themselves with Ancient Tomb, then get off a weak Tendrils for 3-4 Storm. This can get the job done. Use Duress to rip apart their hand and Orim’s Chant to stall until it’s possible to combo out.

-Post board, they won’t bring anything too useful in. However, the T.E.S sideboard has answers in bounce and Shattering Spree/Meltdown. The artifact hate spell brought in is really up to personal preference.

Sideboarding
-2 Orim’s Chant
-2 Silence
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Duress

h.) Reanimator (50%)

- Not a bad match-up, not a great one either. Reanimator has Thoughtsieze, Force of Will, Mental Misstep, and Daze for disruption. It's tough, but winnable. Their only animation target we really care about is Iona and we can win around her. Empty the Warrens is a great option if they've already landed her, it's a great option if they haven't too. Most reanimator lists don't play Echoing Truth main deck. You can also Diminishing Returns to get around Iona on black. It is possible to win without casting black cards. The other target they have is Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, this is threatening because it allows the reanimator player to draw an entirely new hand full of Counters and Disruption. Luckily for us, it’s possible to Pyroblast it after game one.

- Post board, Reanimator doesn’t have much to bring in. The T.E.S player will want to bring in Pyroblasts and bounce.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Wipe Away
-1 Orim’s Chant
-1 Silence
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Rite of Flame

i.) New Horizons (60%)

- Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Daze, Wasteland. To us, it's Merfolk with different creatures, there isn’t a worry about additional soft counters in Cursecatcher or Pierce. The deck doesn’t have to worry about Counterbalance/top, which is a huge bonus.

- Postboard, they’ll bring in Spell Pierce, the deck brings in Pyroblasts.

Sideboarding
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder
+3 Pyroblast

j.) Team America (50%)

- Much like the New Horizon’s match-up, although, they have discard in Thoughtsieze and Hymn to Tourach. This means laying down artifact mana so that it’s not discarded.

- Postboard, same as New Horizons.

Sideboarding
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder
+3 Pyroblast

k.) Painter (70%)

- Painter is just another combo deck, except they have the benefit of Force of Will, although they’re slower.

- Postboard, bring in the regulars but Echoing Truth and a Spree to fight off their combo. It’s important to cast Echoing Truth in crucial situations, make them activate before bouncing, buy some time in order to combo. Pyroblast can become Vindicate with their Painters.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Wipeaway
-2 Orim’s Chant
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder
-1 Rite of Flame

l.) UW Stoneforge (50%)

- This match-up is a lot like Landstill except that they have a faster win condition in Stoneforge for Batterskull. Batterskull can race a horde of Empty the Warrens tokens, don’t try this at home.

- Postboard, some lists have Enlightened Tutor packages, these are pretty bad for the deck. The tutor packages usually consist of Nullrod and Cannonist. Bring in bounce. The ones that don’t play the package aren’t as bad for TES. Don't bring in the bounce for these lists.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Wipeaway
-2 Orim’s Chant
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder
-1 Rite of Flame

m.) UGx Natural Order (60-65%)

- Force of Will, Mental Mistep, Daze, Wasteland. Much like the other UGx variants, except a different win condition. Empty the Warrens is a little stronger against these variants due to less creatures because of Natural Order and Green Suns Zenith. Some of these decks if not most are cutting Force of Will, if this is true the chances of success are much greater.

- Postboard, bring in the regulars. If they're playing white bring in bounce for Gaddeck Teeg and/or Ethersworn Cannonist.

Sideboarding
+3 Pyroblast
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Ponder

or

+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox

n.) BW/x Discard/Junk (40%)

- These decks play Thoughtseize, Hymn, Wasteland, and Vindicate. They play more hand disruption than permanent destruction. Because of this, it’s better to play out artifact mana and sit there until the deck draws an Infernal or Burning Wish into a Storm Engine.

- Postboard, board in bounce for whatever permanent based disruption they play. As of late it’s been Phyrexian Revoker.

Sideboarding
+2 Echoing Truth
+1 Silent Departure
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Duress
-3 Orim’s Chant
-2 Silence

Bryant Cook

09-25-2009, 04:12 PM

X. Additional Information
a.) Readings:
First Thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4612)
Second Thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5450)
Third Thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8046)
The Definition of "Combo" - Do Storm Decks Count? (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2194)
Combo Summer (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6037)
TES vs. Iggy Pop (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5157&highlight=tes+iggy)
What is the Best Current Combo Deck? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=230642#post230642)
The EPIC Storm (TES) vs. Fetchland Tendrils - The Competition (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=232561#post232561)
Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13874)
Combo vs. Synergy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16236)
Shattering Spree vs.Trinisphere (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12983&highlight=shattering+spree)
Shattering Spree vs. Chalice of the Void (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14556&highlight=shattering+spree)
Are there too many different combo decks in Legacy? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20472-Are-there-too-many-different-combo-decks-in-Legacy)
City of Brass - Painting the Town REB by Andy Probasco ( http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21311_City_of_Brass_Painting_the_Town_REB.html)

b.) Major Tournament reports from TES players:
01-01-2007 Brandon Adams's (Emidln) 4th place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4884)
02-12-2007 Florian Fischer's (Flod0) 1st place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=109979&postcount=393)
02-18-2007 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 15th place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=111308&postcount=1)
02-20-2007 Jesse Krieger's (Krieger) 16th place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=111881&postcount=1)
03-05-2007 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 1st place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5215)
04-05-2007 Gnesotto Carlo's (Jegger) 2nd place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5470)
07-29-2007 Carl Wauer, Jr's (Carlos El Salvador) 2nd place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6495&highlight=EPIC+Storm)
08-07-2007 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 4th place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6578)
10-08-2007 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 1st place finish (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7247&highlight=EPIC+Storm)
05-25-2008 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=236899&postcount=1)
07-20-2008 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 4th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=252409&postcount=1)
10-20-2008 James Peyton's (Jrp) 2nd place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=286837&postcount=1)
01-04-2009 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 3rd place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=306832#post306832)
05-31-2009 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 10th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=349043&postcount=1)
09-20-2009 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=383932&postcount=1)
10-18-2009 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 2nd place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=392605&postcount=1)
01-03-2010 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 8th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=414917&postcount=1)
01-26-2010 Derrick Cabrera's (tgDC$) 8th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16286-Storming-to-Top-8-LA-Knight-Ware-for-Duals&p=423026&viewfull=1#post423026)
06-13-2010 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 4th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17888-Storming-to-Fourth-Place-NLTES-at-Lotus-Event&p=462687&viewfull=1#post462687)
06-28-2010 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 3rd place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18079-Storming-to-Third-Place-NLTES-at-Eli-s-6-26-10&p=467575&viewfull=1#post467575)
07-12-2010 Iñaki Puigdollers's (egosum) 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18217-1st-Legacy-Open-mollet-Top-2-with-T-E-S&p=471966&viewfull=1#post471966)
08-02-2010 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 5th place finish at GP: Columbus (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18411-Storming-to-Top-8-GP-Columbus&p=477489)
08-23-2010 James Higginbottom's (Lebron Jim) 8th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18630-Top-8-with-TES-at-JupiterGames-August-21st)
08-25-2010 Bob Yu's (Clown of Tresserhorn) 5th place finish at StarCityGames: Denver (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18645-StarCityGames-Denver-*5th*)
09-16-2010 Rolf Symons' (Diprivan) 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18853-report-TES-splits-finals-at-Mol-Belgium-%2856-players%29&p=489299#post489314)
09-21-2010 Albert's (Albert) 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18889-Report-Top-2-Split-with-3c-TES-at-September-LCL-%28105-players%29)
09-22-2010 Adam D's (Gorky) 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18900-1st-Place-TES-at-the-Connections-Moat-Tournament&p=490895#post490895)
10-12-2010 Iñaki Puigdollers's (egosum) 5th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19049-Top-8-T-E-S-Eternal-Weekend-Spain&p=494192#post494192)
11-09-2010 Derek Brown's (technogeek5000) 9th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19278-First-time-with-TES-almost-gets-there-%289th-place-at-SCG-Boston%29)
12-13-2010 Ken Koepplinger's (naarou) 3rd place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19498-3rd-with-5c-Storm-a-1-5-Black-Lotus-event-%28TOGIT-Somerville-NJ%29&p=507955#post507955)
12-16-2010 Liam Kane's (lorddotm) 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19517-Back-to-Back-Finals-with-TES)
02-24-2011 Rolf Symons' (Diprivan) 8th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20120-report-TES-at-Brussels-Belgium-%2848-players%29&p=525203#post525203)
03-29-2011 Liam Kane's (Lorddotm) 3rd place finish at StarCityGames: Los Angeles (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20406-TES-3rd-Starcitygames-com-Open-Los-Angeles)
04-18-2011 Weston Brown's (COBBLER) 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20609-1-2-Split-At-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-GPT-With-The-Truly-EPIC-storm-%28TES%29)
06-03-2011 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) Day 2 finish GP: Providence (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21094-Storming-to-Day-2-A-Loser-s-Report.)
06-15-2011 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 8th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21215-Storming-to-Top-8-Jupiter-Games-Invitational-Weekend-DUAL-REPORT)
07-03-2011 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 11th place finish at StarCityGames: Baltimore (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21366-Storming-to-11th-Star-City-Games-Baltimore)
07-18-2011 Rafael Lagasca's (paeng4983) 7th place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21483-MANILA-PHILIPPINES-TES-3-july-and-17-july)
10-15-2011 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) Top 16 finish (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/558/cook%E2%80%99s-kitchen-storming-into-jupiter-top-16-october-15th-nelcq-report)
11-05-2011 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 8th place finish (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/689/cook%E2%80%99s-kitchen-storming-into-jupiter-%E2%80%93-top-8-nelc-%E2%80%93-11511)
12-03-2011 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 2nd Place finish (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/903/cooks-kitchen-storming-into-jupiter-finals)
02-11-2012 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 1st Place finish (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/1161/cooks-kitchen-storming-into-jupiter-iv-nelc-021112-first-place)
03-03-2012 Bryant Cook's (Bryant Cook) 8th place finish (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/1199/cooks-kitchen-storming-into-jupiter-pt-v-nelc-030312-top-8)
03-10-2012 Bob Yu's (Clown of Tresserhorn) Day 2 finish at GP: Indianapolis (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23345-TESing-my-way-to-Day-2-149th-at-Indy)

c.) Feature matches including The EPIC Storm:
06-26-2010 Bryant Cook vs. Matt Kadilak (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7913212)
07-24-2010 Bryant Cook vs. James Rynkiewicz (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8485216)
08-21-2010 James Higginbottom vs. Allen Abendroth (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9068076)
03-30-2011 Liam Kane vs. Patrick Sullivan (http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-la-leg-qf-liam-kane-vs-patrick-sullivan-4972156)
04-02-2011 AJ Kerrigan vs. Robert Cuellari (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13729018)
06-11-2011 Bryant Cook vs. Ryan Mckinney (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/15315428)
06-31-2011 AJ Kerrigan vs. James Rynkiewicz (http://mtghunter.wordpress.com/2011/05/31/aj-kerrigan-vs-james-rynkiewicz/)
07-23-2011 AJ Kerrigan vs. Doug McKay (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16195426)
07-24-2011 Liam Kane vs. Joe Lossett (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgsea-leg-rd-2-joe-lossett-vs-liam-kane-5427463)
08-13-2011 Bryant Cook vs. Brandon Mccormick (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/16621249)
10-02-2011 Jason Golembiweski vs. Chris Anderson (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgindy-leg-rd5-chris-anderson-vs-jason-golembiewski-5617135)
10-02-2011 Jason Golembiweski vs. Ari Lax (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgindy-leg-top-8-ari-lax-vs-jason-golembiweski-5617919)
10-02-2011 Brandon Burgoa vs. Marsh Usary (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgindy-leg-rd6-brandon-burgoa-vs-marsh-usary-5617517)
11-05-2011 Liam Kane vs. Caleb Neufeld (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgvegas-leg-rd5-liam-kane-vs-caleb-neufeld-5729272)
11-13-2011 Eduardo M Shimizu vs. Rodrigo V Pereira (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18503948)
01-22-2012 Robin Meeker-Cummings vs. Ali Aintrazi (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgdc-lgc-top-8-ali-aintrazi-vs-robin-meeker-cummings-1-5911910)
01-22-2012 Robin Meeker-Cummings vs. Ali Aintrazi (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgdc-lgc-top-8-ali-aintrazi-vs-robin-meeker-cummings-2-5912074)
02-11-2012 Bryant Cook vs. Seneca Hobler (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20375979)
02-11-2012 Bryant Cook vs. Tariq White (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20380550)
02-11-2012 Bryant Cook vs. Michael Cutrone (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20387054)
02-11-2012 Bryant Cook vs. Doug McKay (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20388189)
03-03-2012 Bryant Cook vs. Nick Patnode (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20857486)

d.) Articles discussing The EPIC Storm:
Unlocking Legacy- A Metagame Update By Chris Coppola (Machinus) (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13782.html)
Unlocking Legacy- The Pet Deck By Adam Barnello (Nightmare) (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14837.html)
Unlocking Legacy- Combo: The Missing Link By Chris Coppola (Machinus) (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14902.html)
Unlocking Legacy- Extending a hand By Adam Barnello (Nightmare) (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15629.html)
Unlocking Legacy- Design Patterns By Anwar Ahmad (Anwar101) (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15905.html)
Unlocking Legacy- Emerging Decks By Chris Coppola (Machinus) (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15962.html)
Unlocking Legacy- "The Engine of Storm" By Anwar Ahmad (Anwar101) (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16526.html)
So Many Insane Plays – A Bird’s Eye View of Legacy: The Engines of Legacy By Steven Menendian (Smmenen) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17126_So_Many_Insane_Plays_A_Birds_Eye_View_of_Legacy_The_Engines_of_Legacy.html)
Playing TES (a Demystifying Guide) By Brandon Adams (Emildn) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18139-Free-Article-Playing-TES-%28a-Demystifying-Guide%29&p=469555&viewfull=1#post469555)
Ill-Gotten Pains (Vacrix) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18184-Psuedo-Article-Ill-Gotten-Pains&p=470854&viewfull=1#post470854)
Arnold Palmer: Daily MTG By Mike Flores (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/td/102)
Legacy's Allure - GenCon and Columbus Trends By Doug Linn (HiVal) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19869_Legacys_Allure_GenCon_and_Columbus_Trends.html)
Ideas Unbound - The Tendrils/Merfolk Matchup By Max McCall (Frogboy) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20020_Ideas_Unbound_The_TendrilsMerfolk_Matchup.html)
The Long and Winding Road – Legacy Storm (Don't Call It A Comeback) By Matt Elias (Voltron00x) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20032_The_Long_Winding_Road_Legacy_Storm_Dont_Call_It_A_Comeback.html)
The Long and Winding Road – The New Kings of Legacy By Matt Elias (Voltron00x) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20209_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_The_New_Kings_of_Legacy.html)
The Long and Winding Road – You, But Better By Matt Elias (Voltron00x) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20408_The_Long_Winding_Road_You_But_Better.html)
Ideas Unbound - So You Want To Kill Your Opponent On Turn One By Max McCall (Frogboy) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20499_Ideas_Unbound_So_You_Want_To_Kill_Your_Opponent_On_Turn_One.html)
Ideas Unbound - The Process Of Actually Killing Someone On Turn One By Max McCall (Frogboy) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20528_Ideas_Unbound_The_Process_Of_Actually_Killing_Someone_On_Turn_One.html)
The Long and Winding Road – Legacy Combo: It's Whats For Dinner By Matt Elias (Voltron00x) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20610_The_Long_and_Winding_Road_Legacy_Combo_Its_Whats_for_Dinner.html)
So, You Want To Play Storm Combo... by Silent Requiem (Silent Requiem) (http://www.manaleak.com/beta/2010/12/so-you-want-to-play-storm%E2%80%A6/)
Ideas Unbound - One Game Remix: Tendrils vs. U/G Survival by Max McCall (Frogboy) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20631_Ideas_Unbound_One_Game_Remix_Tendrils_vs_UG_Survival.html)
Storm Academy: Becoming a Storm Pilot by Silent Requiem (Silent Requiem) (http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/12/storm-academy-becoming-a-storm-pilot-by-silent-requiem/)
Storm Academy: Anatomy of Storm by Silent Requiem (Silent Requiem) (http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/12/storm-acamedy-anatomy-of-a-storm-by-silent-requiem/)
TES (The EPIC Storm) Primer Article by Liam Kane (lorddotm) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21580_TES_The_Epic_Storm_Primer_Article.html)
Tracking the storm - NPH Effects on Legacy Storm by AJ Kerrigan (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21851_Tracking_the_Storm_NPH_Effects_On_Legacy_Storm.html)
Legacy Matchups With AJ Kerrigan And Michael Caffrey (mchainmail) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22566_Legacy_Matchups_With_AJ_Kerrigan_And_Michael_Caffrey.html)
Out With The New And In With The Old by Ari Lax (AriLax) and AJ Kerrigan (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22844_Out_With_The_New_And_In_With_The_Old.html)
Cook's Kitchen - Storming into the Past by Bryant Cook (Bryant Cook) (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/463/cooks-kitchen-storming-into-the-past)
Cook's Kitchen - Storming into Indianapolis by Bryant Cook (Bryant Cook) (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/518/storming-into-indianapolis)
Cook's Kitchen - Updating Storm by Bryant Cook (Bryant Cook) (http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/1070/cooks-kitchen-updating-storm)
Legacy Week - Q & A: How To Count To Ten In 2012 by Ari Lax (AriLax) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23720_Legacy_Week_Q_A_How_To_Count_To_TenIn_2012.html)

e.) Other:
Pimp Legacy Decks - TES (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-Bragging-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=605635&viewfull=1#post605635)

Thank you for reading.

DukeDemonKn1ght

09-25-2009, 04:23 PM

So if you have favorable match-ups against the most prevalent decks in the format (since Chalice aggro is pretty unpopular these days), does that make this the best deck in the format??

If so, why don't more people use it? Is it just a play-skill issue? (This probably sound like trolling/baiting, but I promise that's not my intent...)

Phoenix Ignition

09-25-2009, 04:42 PM

Is it just a play-skill issue? (This probably sound like trolling/baiting, but I promise that's not my intent...)

Yes. Entirely. I've won a single tournament where I've brought in TES, out of many. The thing about these play tests is they are done by Bryant, who is going to win a much higher percentage of his matches than I would. Especially against decks that pack disruption, since I haven't played the deck enough I wouldn't know how to play through it well.

This is largely a problem with anyone's play percentages who writes the deck up. Generally they will be better at it then you, so the percentages are going to be higher than when you play it. But they are still a good base to go off of if you subtract 5-10% from all of the scores as a "handicap" sort of thing.

BreathWeapon

09-25-2009, 04:43 PM

Bryant,

You need to remove Duress from "Cards that didn't make the cut."

rsaunder

09-25-2009, 05:03 PM

Thanks for the primer, good to see more competitive decks up on these boards. I also see you didn't take our matches from last weekend's tournament into account when calculating your win percentages; I feel like you have a better UWx landstill matchup than you give yourself credit for.

Also, you're sexy.

Piceli89

09-25-2009, 05:03 PM

Nidd

09-25-2009, 05:03 PM

When it comes to bringing a deck to an unknown Meta, which would you take?
TES
ANT
FT

And how much do they cost ca.?

deviant

09-25-2009, 05:04 PM

TES has quite a bit of difficulties against blue decks, and unless you are very comfortable with the deck and the mu in question (whatever decklist that starts with some number of stifles, dazes, fows, and god forbid: cb+top) you are just going to plain succumb to it. (This comes from a guy that has a positive tournament record with tes against dreadstill, possibly the worst mu of them all)

Chances are the other guy plays the mu even worse than you do (people don't seem to find testing against combo all that enjoyable), but it's still not going to be pretty. This is why people shy away from decks like TES, NLS etc. They need a good pilot that can outplay the opponent.
Now this might come off as a flame, but I don't intent to start a fight about this: ANT is more played imo because the deck is auto-piloted. (I consider basic ANT lists easier to play than burn, a deck that some times needs you to know when to bolt dudes and not face.) Rarely comes playskill into equation with a streamlined deck like that.

With TES you need to know when to go for the throat, when to try and get protection, when you need more than one protection spell etc. This is something you need to deduce from the opponents body language, his playstyle etc. I once won the third game against dreadstill by counting on that he mulliganed aggressively into CB (something I had picked up from the games we had played before), waited for him to tap out to it, eot bounced it, went off around daze in hopes he only had cb and no fow. I can't remember the game completely but I remember that if he didn't have the CB I would have lost the game having timewalked myself twice waiting for it and it would have meant he kept a hand that has lots of FoW & Daze action, something I was in no position to handle.

EDIT: I went first and kept a hand that would have been horrid if he decided to not mulligan into CB. This was before M10 rules.

And of all decks in legacy, I think TES is the hardest to mulligan with. No joke, you lose fuckloads of games when you pick the deck up due to wrong mulligan decisions.

About those percentages btw, not only is Bryant possibly the most skilled TES pilot, he is also the luckiest. I mean, have you read his reports? This is also his pet deck, and if you go over the other threads their starters probably have "TES" in their mu analysis as slightly more favorable than the same mu is described here.

Nidd

09-25-2009, 05:12 PM

Sounds like TES would be my deck of choice. I'm turned on by decks that cause headaches.

Yes, I'm reading his reports atm. Sounds like a bit luck is important - and I do have that portion I guess. At least, in Limited.

Edit: How much of an impact will Mindbreak Trap have on Legacy? We have 3 Chant effects, does it just make it more important for us to have a Chanteffect or is it useless and won't see play?

Piceli89

09-25-2009, 05:37 PM

I would like to add a personal belief about TES not being Tier1: apart from the fact that it's surely a deck difficult to play perfectly, i think lots of people renounce to it because of its fragility. I mean, ANT has spread a lot more surely because it's way more easy to handle and the way to win are usually few and simple ( i can see only IGG and AdN as for now), but also because it can guarantee a way greater consistency than TES. Despites that "fetchlands are bad because you run into stifle" justification that cuts them away from TES, playing ANT you can notice how much those fetchlands can save you time to time from Wasteland, which is instead a critical hit for TES. And it's usually difficult to apply the "you have to play around Wasteland/need to draw more than 1 land-hand" thing, because it happens that you spend the first turn cantripping, either brainstorm or Ponder, so you fucking need THAT land to be on the board. If you don't manage to find another land, you can still go off with petals, Moxes and SSGs , that's for sure; but the fact that all your lands suck to wasteland is a huge factor. A smart tempo deck(Thresh, Merfolks, ecc) player can win you just wastelanding your first land drop and keeping a Fow in hand. When this happens, with the normal TES build i can swear sometimes you just lose games waiting for another land -which is not so easy since their low density- and being killed by a random Mongoose/Goyf or some Merfolks. You find another land and try to go off? They have filled their hands with fows, Snares, Dazes ad whatsoever. Brainstorm+Fetchlands is a huge machine when it comes down to hand-shaping skill, and it's not a mistery that a blue-based player, if given the time to, can shuffle away all that Bolts and keep a whole blue hand. And so the combo player does, indeed, if he runs those cards; from my personal experience, I am currently playing a hybrid version of TES, something which mixes rainbow manabases and fetchlands with the usual spell list, and holy shit brainstorming and then fetching away those horrible moxes-tutors in excess is such an advantage that i can't think what i could have done in a tournament if, say, i brainstormed into shit and was forced to keep that shit for 2 more turns. Opponents are meant to play good decks, and they don't require 4 turns to drop down that Counterbalance or that Chalice. You need to be fast , that's for sure, but you also need to be consistent and not to rollover to..your same deck.
That's why, personally, I find that TES still lacks of that bit of stability which would make it a really great deal in the metagame. It still has lots of difficulties against tempo decks; of course this could be circumvent going off brutally before they can even full their hands of counters, but sadly it is a lie that this deck always offers golden hands. It often offers shitty hands, which should be mulliganed. A hand without a land, if it's not 1 piece away from being the perfect combo hand, is usually mulliganed; a hand with double mox is like a 5-cards hand; a hand stuck with 3 tutors and no mox is friggin' slow. This is what usually happened to me with the normal list. And i claim to have "standard" parameters of luck.
All this to say that you shouldn't pick up TES if you're not really lucky like Bryant, or you should make some modifications to the deck in order to make it gain a bit more of consistency. I don't want to claim that the deck is shit; on the contrary, is way more puzzling and skill-intensive than ANT, and it should get its right recognization. But still, the fact that luck in drawing and topdecking is a very huge factor makes it difficult to appreciate, at least Imo.

Wargoos

09-25-2009, 05:41 PM

I'm turned on by decks that cause headaches.

Then rather try NLS.
On the first 6-round tourney doomsday will break your head (although the deck will highly reward you, if you keep playing and understanding it).

Nidd

09-25-2009, 06:04 PM

Then rather try NLS.
On the first 6-round tourney doomsday will break your head (although the deck will highly reward you, if you keep playing and understanding it).
I'm gonna have a look at the decklist.

@ Piceli89: thank you for the information. I think it would be ok to start with ANT to get a feeling for Storm decks (I mostly played LED-Less Ichorid and Merfolk now, so Storm is completely new to me.). the deck can be modified to TES or NLS with some changes.

Okay, so let's see whether I can get some LEDs for under 20€/piece...

Bryant Cook

09-25-2009, 06:15 PM

Bryant, i'd keep Chants in against Ichorid, and board out Duress on the draw. I can't really remember how many games I've won chanting the ichorid player, so that he couldn't go off before me but, most of all, he couldn't Therapy me. Cabal Therapy is all you must fear from that deck, and the fact that the 70% of the times it gets cast it comes from their graveyard means that Chant>>Duress in here. I don't know if boarding in Pyroblasts has helped you, but I wouldn't care too much about playing the "control" role in here blasting their BThroughs. You just have to go faster, and Chant is a complete timewalk and a gorgeous protection, the only one worth to stay in steadily.
Also, latter Ichorid lists have cut Cotv from their sides. It would also be hurting for them to set Cotv @0, since they arguably keep their LEDs in to go off at entire speed. If i were to define Ichorid sb changes, personally I'd go something like
On the Draw:
-3 Duress
-1 Mox
+1 IT
+1 Truth
+1-2 Spree (if you fear cotvs coming from random players)

On the play, well, you can keep your Duresses in, and NOT board Blasts in.
Haven’t we been through this before? Seems like déjà vu to me. I don’t like how you’re forced to keep mana untapped when you should be digging for the win. Not to mention Chants are awful for imprinting in this match-up where it’s actually important. The difference in the random card you draw to throw on a mox can determine if you win or lose a round due to that extra turn it’d take to draw a card of the right color. Ichorid players around here still pack Chalice, until they don’t, I’ll be boarding in sprees.

@ your other post – I think you’re being a bit harsh and biased. I understand where you’re coming from, but when I try something and don’t like it. Then continue to win without it, it’s not really necessary.

Nidd

09-25-2009, 06:19 PM

Haven’t we been through this before? Seems like déjà vu to me. I don’t like how you’re forced to keep mana untapped when you should be digging for the win. Not to mention Chants are awful for imprinting in this match-up where it’s actually important. The difference in the random card you draw to throw on a mox can determine if you win or lose a round due to that extra turn it’d take to draw a card of the right color. Ichorid players around here still pack Chalice, until they don’t, I’ll be boarding in sprees.

@ your other post – I think you’re being a bit harsh and biased. I understand where you’re coming from, but when I try something and don’t like it. Then continue to win without it, it’s not really necessary.
How longs does the average player have to practice before he can start playing this deck in a more serious environment?

Would you recommend starting off with ANT and then seeing whether I can handle TES or do you think it would be better to play TES from the scratch?

Bryant Cook

09-25-2009, 06:24 PM

How longs does the average player have to practice before he can start playing this deck in a more serious environment?

Would you recommend starting off with ANT and then seeing whether I can handle TES or do you think it would be better to play TES from the scratch?

Once you feel comfortable playing against countertop. If you can beat that you can beat anything.

I wouldn't recommend ANT as a starting point, because it puts the idea into your head that Ad Nauseam is always the right choice. Especially when it's not, TES will make you a better player. It'll teach you what's the appropriate card for the appropriate situation and how to play around troublesome cards.

Nidd

09-25-2009, 06:33 PM

Once you feel comfortable playing against countertop. If you can beat that you can beat anything.

I wouldn't recommend ANT as a starting point, because it puts the idea into your head that Ad Nauseam is always the right choice. Especially when it's not, TES will make you a better player. It'll teach you what's the appropriate card for the appropriate situation and how to play around troublesome cards.
I'm pretty resistent to that kind of thoughtpatterns. When i played T2, I enjoyed playing Gifts and that deck was pretty hardcore for T2, when it comes to decisionmaking.

How much did your TES cost you?

deviant

09-25-2009, 07:41 PM

@ Nidd

First of all, DO NOT ask Bryan how much TES cost him, the guy has it in gilded foil altered japanese that has been ritually blessed by tibetan monks. No joke, check the pimping threads.

Seriously though, I would suggest you start off with TES. The deck is a great starting point since it will remain interesting unlike ANT, which is just so straightforward that you get bored after one tournament or so.

Goldfish the deck when you listen to music, goldfish it when you go to the toilet, goldfish it when you watch porn. You have to get comfortable finding the way to victory, fast. When you start to win consistently on turn 1-2 you start having it.

Now you can start testing with a real opponent.

Try to find some Thresh-player with a low self-esteem to be your training partner. It will serve you both, he gets to win and you get to get your ass handed to you by cb+top.

When you're done losing to counter-top you can start winning.

EDIT: oh, and pro-tip: ad nauseam can fizzle even from 20 (i have lost a round where I got turn 1-2 nauseam three times. It fizzled twice. I have no idea wtf the other guy was playing, all I saw was a basic forest..) but IGG-loop is calculated and thus it does not fizzle. If you can go with iggy, go with it. Nauseam is the back-up win-con.

Jak

09-25-2009, 09:16 PM

Oh shit, 4th (right?) TES thread.

I just started goldfishing this for the first time since the deck added AN (when Draw 4s were the shit and Plunge into Darkness was played). Gosh AN is amazing. Every time I cast it I win. I think this deck abuses it the best with much more acceleration and tutors for after it resolves. I think that is the major thing why I like it over ANT.

I do have a few questions though.

1. Do you miss the bounce spell main?

2. The SB seems weird. You have the instants which are to be sided in to combat the random crap but you don't run some targeted Enchantments removal. Don't you think a Vindicate or Tranquility would be good there?

3. The land base has hurt me twice in 50ish goldfishes. Mostly having a Volc and not having the black to ritual or Tutor. Is something like Forbidden Orchard that bad?

Bryant Cook

09-26-2009, 01:13 PM

1. Do you miss the bounce spell main?

2. The SB seems weird. You have the instants which are to be sided in to combat the random crap but you don't run some targeted Enchantments removal. Don't you think a Vindicate or Tranquility would be good there?

3. The land base has hurt me twice in 50ish goldfishes. Mostly having a Volc and not having the black to ritual or Tutor. Is something like Forbidden Orchard that bad?

1.) Sometimes, in my last report you'll see I saw Gaddeck Teeg twice, once game one. But other than that, no.

2.) Well, what are the chances that your Burning Wish gets through the one enchantment that we care about and then the target resolves? I feel we're just better off sideboarding in Krosan Grip. Vindicate in the sideboard was amazing in theory, but terrible in practice IMO.

3.) I've yet to really have any problems with Volcanic island, 3 Underground sea would feel off to me. Orchard is terrible because that one token can often deal 2-3 damage which makes Ad Nauseam a hell of a lot worse. In addition to that, multiple turns of tapping that Orchard for cantips.

BreathWeapon

09-26-2009, 02:32 PM

I still think Hull Breach or Simplify are worth a slot, you do run into weird shit like Arcane Laboratory or Pyrostatic Pillar from time to time.

Wargoos

09-26-2009, 02:36 PM

Pyrostatic Pillar

Indeed weird, because storm player can still win through it via IGG.

Nidd

09-26-2009, 02:47 PM

Wargoos

09-26-2009, 02:52 PM

What exactly does IGG-Loop mean, btw? It gets removed afaik, so there is no loop, or am I mssing the main part of the deck?
I know you can use IGG to ramp up some mana/raise the stormcount, but is there really a loop you can create?

Well you usually get led's and tutors back out of the yard with IGG for reuse, so you can say creating a "loop" - even when the term maybe isn't appropriate.
There is no real "infinite" loop in it.

Nidd

09-26-2009, 02:58 PM

Jak

09-26-2009, 03:28 PM

1.) Sometimes, in my last report you'll see I saw Gaddeck Teeg twice, once game one. But other than that, no.

2.) Well, what are the chances that your Burning Wish gets through the one enchantment that we care about and then the target resolves? I feel we're just better off sideboarding in Krosan Grip. Vindicate in the sideboard was amazing in theory, but terrible in practice IMO.

3.) I've yet to really have any problems with Volcanic island, 3 Underground sea would feel off to me. Orchard is terrible because that one token can often deal 2-3 damage which makes Ad Nauseam a hell of a lot worse. In addition to that, multiple turns of tapping that Orchard for cantips.

1 & 2) So you lose to a resolved Confinement, Arcane Lab, Rule of Law, and Counterbalance pre board. Random shit happens and I always liked having an answer. I do think running 1 Tranquility/Vindicate/HullBreach would help and not hurt the deck.

3) I'm not recommending dropping the Volc for another Sea because then the opposite would end up happening. I figure Orchard wouldn't deal that much. I mean, you are still running City of Brass which will end up doing the same amount to you. I think it helps with casting Orim's Chant as well which is another thing I had trouble doing. Just food for thought.

Pelikanudo

09-26-2009, 04:21 PM

Hell, Bryant Cook now you re playing No bounces main and just 1 A.N.....

Well that was what Breath.W eapon and me were suggeesting....

Well also the 3 number of I.T....

You should move those F*** S.S.G out and put 2 M.Tutor in , also IGG is a nonsense because of B.Wish , thats why you cut Chain of vapor...
If you cut Chain of vapor , please cut as well IGG....

and the configuration of 12 lands is the best you yet run 11 ?¿?¿?¿?¿

4 gemstone 4 city and 2 volcanic 2 under.sea are perfect...

With my deck list I've not yet lost to anybody since my last configuration.

Regarding to the side , which is my main objetive and difficult choices 3 REB I agree wth you can be correct bu I'd like to move to 4 , also vs those trinis and chalices Hurkils is the best option, I also play 1 Shatering spree and 1 Meltdown, this last card is now a MUST in my side options
I also like the Deathmark and Simplyfy in my side thats why I prefer not to play chain of vapor in my side : Always I have need to blow up something I just needed to have OR M.Tutor OR Burning , M.Tutor for you know what? for burning...

I've been thinking in takin out those D.Returns ... I'm not using them at all sometimes I use IGG , sometimes I.T , someteimes Tendrils but I really think I.T in side replaces D.Returns by now.

Nidd

09-26-2009, 04:30 PM

deviant

09-26-2009, 05:17 PM

Lotz of mis spelsed no senses

Maybe if you spoke English he would have understood you earlier?

Proper grammar gets the message through so much better.
When you type like that, it's really hard to take you seriously.

Jak

09-26-2009, 05:34 PM

Orchard is much worse than City. City deals 1 damage, but a token can cause far more damage than 1.
Instead, I would play something like... Undiscovered Paradise? I suppose that, as a 1 of, it won't hurt you.

Paradise got removed from the deck when cantrips were put it. It's even worse now with 8 of them.

And City still deals you one when you tap it again. Paradise is at least delayed. In the first few turns of the game, I feel Orchard just does the best job.

Wargoos

09-26-2009, 06:25 PM

Maybe if you spoke English he would have understood you earlier?

Proper grammar gets the message through so much better.
When you type like that, it's really hard to take you seriously.

As far as I agree with you, it's still no fun to pick on someone because of his poor english education.
And it isn't as if you wouldn't understand anything, right?

@ peli: I also switched over to 1Spree/1 Meltdown in the sideboard but I strongly disagree with you by cutting the md Iggy.
As an alternative (and pretty sure) win condition that is needed very often when a win with AN is very unlikely, Ill-Gotten Gains add's some to the "consistence-balance" of this deck, meaning that it enables you to win even with bad hands (leading to games with more than 5 turns) you have to keep or unlucky draws. The md IGG is needed, because you will loose games because you were to short on mana to go b.wish for Ill-Gotten Gains.

Also mystical tutor is a card that I rarely want to see anymore, least of all in multiples in a deck that has just few shuffle effects and playing magic with an updated manaburn regulation (I mean the post M10 rules).
This card got much much worse since the upkeep trick doesn't work anymore.

About running the 12 land base: It seems reasonable, but I can't really add a lot to it, because I mainly played my hybrid ANTES list over pure TES.

PS: MD bounce is as good as never needed in my opinion - random cards like arcane lab. usually get packed by players playing random decks - and combo tends to crush them all horribly game1.
I've never lost a match to a random card, although I nearly did when playing against a 10-year old kid playing monow kithkins and me going off (it was a tourney, I usually feel quite uncomfortable raping lil' children with tentacle-tendrils- don't blame me for this). So I went off and thought I'd rather go for 20-ish goblin tokens than the porn-tendrils - a rather lucky decision on my part because he showed me afterwards, that he had a guilded light in hand, which would've raped me quite back...

Gocho

09-27-2009, 06:29 AM

Well you usually get led's and tutors back out of the yard with IGG for reuse, so you can say creating a "loop" - even when the term maybe isn't appropriate.
There is no real "infinite" loop in it.

The Original TES Deck have 4 IGG and can make:
- IGG -> LED/Ritual,LED/Ritual, Infernal for another IGG
- Repeat 3 times and tutor for a Tendrils

You get enough storm count and a Tendrils for 30 or more.

Nidd

09-27-2009, 06:33 AM

Well, yeah, I do understand where the term loop comes from in this context. However, I always looked at the term "loop" with a feeling of infinity. Like Dragon combo.

But well, doesn't matter.

I'm curious where you get the idea from to play Bobs. I mean, he's all great and all, but he is a creature.

NQN

09-27-2009, 07:46 AM

Bryant Cook

09-28-2009, 10:23 AM

It may have been answered already, but I couln´t figure out if thats the case:

Why do you split Chant/Silence? I don´t think we will get therapy/Mage preboard too often, but it can fuck you up if you want to get a second Chant with IT but only have silence...
Please explain :)

I'm going to answer this now, I do not want to see it again. I'm not joking. It seems like every single page someone asks this question.

There's no downside to playing a split between Orim's Chant and Silence. Silence gets around Meddling Mage, Runed Halo, Cabal Therapy, Extripate, and other cards people use to try to combat Orim's Chant. I still believe that Orim's Chant is the better overall card because it's ability to stop Aggro.

Now for people with "BUT OMFGZ Dude WHAT aboutsx Misdirection?!?!1/?" No one plays Misdirection - at all. I don't want to hear it, if you come across someone bad enough to play Misdirection, Mystical Tutor for Silence.

Jim Higginbottom

09-28-2009, 11:18 PM

Just out of curiosity....how are you susposed to know a head of time if they're bad enough to play misdirection in game 1 and I don't want to hear duress.

Jak

09-28-2009, 11:20 PM

Just out of curiosity....how are you susposed to know a head of time if they're bad enough to play misdirection in game 1 and I don't want to hear duress.

Then what do you want to hear? And even if Misdirection does end up hitting a Chant, who cares? You "skip" a turn and they lose 2 cards.

Jim Higginbottom

09-29-2009, 08:36 AM

Jeff Kruchkow

09-29-2009, 10:28 AM

And now either you can't igg loop without finding another chant or you`re simply losing next turn to their beater. I'm just saying, kicking a chant has never won me a game....I may be the exception though.

you are. i can easily recall several games where i drew like shit and chant saved me. several of which were against stuff like d. stompy while i waited for another land.

Jak

09-29-2009, 11:30 AM

And now either you can't igg loop without finding another chant or you`re simply losing next turn to their beater. I'm just saying, kicking a chant has never won me a game....I may be the exception though.

It's fine to post hypothetical situations, but making them up as you go is pretty meh.

I mean, what deck are they using? What creature is on the board? What's their hand size? How many turns in are you? What's your life total? Once you tell us all these then maybe there is an out.

Volrath

09-30-2009, 08:57 AM

I took first place on my FNM last week

This was my list

cantrips:
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
Tutors:
4 burning wish
4 infernal tutor
2 mystical tutor
Mana Accel
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark ritual
4 Rite of flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus petal
Protection:
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
Land:
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
2 Glimmervoid
1 Undiscovered paradise
Win
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrills of Agony

Sideboard

2 Ill-gotten Gains
1 Diminishing returns
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Solemn Offering
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyll's recall
1 Unmask
1 Deathmark
1 Empty the warrens
1 tendrills of agony
4 Pyroblast

Round 1 was against Mono R burn, i dont remember much, besides that i won both games t1

Round 2 was against UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh with Hierarchs.

G1
he started with a t1 Hierarch, i with a t1 land
he played a second hierarch and a third.
I played a land followed by chant and went ritual, ritual LED, Tutor into Nauseam

G2
he played a first turn hierarch and i played a land.
t2 he played a Goyf , i played a land and duress took away his daze and left him with a fow and a second daze as his only blue card
he attacked, i took 4.
I played a land cast chant wich he fowed and went Led, Led, petal, tutor into Nauseam

Round 3

I played against goblins.

G1 I needed a second mana source to cast the nauseam in my hand, but never found it the whole game, he went lacky into Siege gang, thoughsteize (main) and piley.

G2 I went T1 Spirit guide, Led, Led, petal, Rite, Burning Wish into Empty the Warrens, he could not keep up.

G3 he played a t1 lacky again and i pondered into a mystical.
t1 atack, warchief and cast piley
i played my second land.
he attacked, i took 8
Brainstorm @ eot to get third land.
played land, chant with kicker in his upkeep, eot mystical into AD Nauseam.
Drew Neuseam, cast ritual and petal play nauseam @ 10, i got 3 rites, 2 rituals, 2 leds, some land a ponder/brainstorm or 2 and finaly a burning wish.

@ I was really lucky and should not have won this game, i should have cast the petal and chanted him earlier.

Round 4

Against Zoo

G1, T1 Duress, took away his helix and went for the throath next turn

G2 , T1 double ritual, Led and Infernal into Win

Round 5

BUG ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh with counter top

G1, he went t1 Top, i went duress, he fowed with a daze
T2 CB
I went petal, he flipped a brainstorm and i cast Wish, resolves into Solemn Offering
he went t3 confidant
I Cast Offering, he revealed a land after topping and it was gone.
he cast a t4 Goyf and attacked for 2.
I cast Chant, he brainstorm and fowd it with a ponder.
i went ritual, rite Nauseam into win
G2 he cast top
i played a land.
he played confidant
i played land, chant, wich got a force and the force got a pyroblast, letting my petal, 2 Leds, SSG and burning wish resolve into Dminishing returns, i cast Mox, imprint brainstorm and cast Mystical for Nauseam
he took his turn, attacked and cast goyf.
i took my turn and chanted his ass, and cast the nauseam with a ritual and won.

I admit it was risky, but it worked out really wel:)

I did not like having the second IGG in the side and he is going to replace a Infernal in the maindeck.

And i can't believe how lucky i was in some rounds.

Jim Higginbottom

09-30-2009, 09:39 AM

It's fine to post hypothetical situations, but making them up as you go is pretty meh.

I mean, what deck are they using? What creature is on the board? What's their hand size? How many turns in are you? What's your life total? Once you tell us all these then maybe there is an out.

I wish I was posting a hypothetical. This was against faeries w/ countertop and they always seemed to have a handful of counters. I had baited out his counters when I finally can go off I cast a chant which gets hit with a MisD they'd topdecked. I know Misdirection is not a common card and probally not worth playing around....I'm just saying.

Jim Higginbottom

09-30-2009, 09:42 AM

Why would you ever want a 2nd igg main deck?

Volrath

09-30-2009, 09:50 AM

As you can see, i play 2 side.

Boarding 1 in against aggro decks, i feared that SSG, Ad nauseam, Tendrills and IGG would cost me to much life, but after some more testing this week i found the damage neglectable and wil put 1 main again.

Jim Higginbottom

09-30-2009, 12:35 PM

Sorry, I didn't realize there were 0 main.

Bryant Cook

09-30-2009, 05:09 PM

I wish I was posting a hypothetical. This was against faeries w/ countertop and they always seemed to have a handful of counters. I had baited out his counters when I finally can go off I cast a chant which gets hit with a MisD they'd topdecked. I know Misdirection is not a common card and probally not worth playing around....I'm just saying.

What you're saying is you're making a conscious decision to change your deck because of one bad player? Sounds awesome.

On an unrelated note. I'm still looking to add 2 Deathmark to the sideboard. The slots I'm looking at are...

Shattering Spree (2)
Hurkyl's
Krosan Grip
Echoing Truth
Infernal Tutor

Infernal Tutor is definitely leaving. I'm just unsure about the others.

keys

09-30-2009, 05:44 PM

Shattering Spree (2)
Hurkyl's
Krosan Grip
Echoing Truth

I'd cut a Spree since Deathmark will hit Canonist too.

Piceli89

09-30-2009, 06:57 PM

Bryant Cook

09-30-2009, 07:31 PM

Same. But personally I'd play only one Deathmark, since you can bring in Hurkyl's and a Spree, and leave another Spree and the sb Deathmark to hit Canonist. While I'd board a Truth and leave Deathmark and Grapeshot as MM/Teeg Wish solutions.

It's just that the 'Cuse metagame is full of Gaddeck Teegs. Do you think Wizards would make the sideboard 16 cards for me?

SuperBean

10-01-2009, 01:24 AM

Me too

Piceli89

10-01-2009, 05:47 AM

It's just that the 'Cuse metagame is full of Gaddeck Teegs. Do you think Wizards would make the sideboard 16 cards for me?

As my meta and lebron's one is infested with strange Faeries decks who play Misdirection, so your meta is filled with scrubs playing Gaddock teeg MD, ehehehe, deal with it !

Jim Higginbottom

10-01-2009, 10:14 AM

Jim Higginbottom

10-01-2009, 10:15 AM

I'm wondering if it isn't better to run 3 ponder and 4 infernal tutors rather than 4 ponder and 3 tutors. I'm going to test both.

Jim Higginbottom

10-01-2009, 10:58 AM

I'd cut a Spree since Deathmark will hit Canonist too.

Actually I think it would make more sense for him to cut hurkyl's recall over a spree.

SuperBean

10-01-2009, 12:27 PM

As Piceli said...you have to build your deck around your metagame. There isn't going to be one "correct" list. I get away with only 1 deathmark but I also play 3 mystical tutors and can therefore side it in...if I was running 2 mysticals I might have to keep deathmark as a wish target or run 2.

I don't know if what your saying is correct at all. I think when building your deck, you have to decide on meta game calls based on the tournament size. If it's going to be a Grand Prix style tournament, I would certainly change your sideboard/main deck accordingly.

But, if it's a smaller, local tournament you can again adjust your maindeck/sideboard as needed. Especially if you have a good idea of what people will be playing.

Jim Higginbottom

10-02-2009, 07:04 AM

Just out of curiosity...did you not notice that you said you do not think what I'm saying is correct right before you repeated my position?

SuperBean

10-02-2009, 02:22 PM

Wow, I was so stoned when I wrote that, and I thought it said something different.

Success!

Bryant Cook

10-05-2009, 10:39 AM

Now for something a little less stupid,

I've decided to cut Krosan Grip from the sideboard for the second Deathmark. I realize this makes the Counter/top match-up slightly harder. But those decks are a dying breed currently. Now I have to get a japanese foil Hurkyl's...

lorddotm

10-05-2009, 10:55 AM

Bryant Cook

10-05-2009, 12:42 PM

How has the 4 BW/3 IT/2 Mystical package been working for you?

I took 1st at the only event I've played in the last month or so in. So...fine?

lorddotm

10-05-2009, 01:20 PM

I took 1st at the only event I've played in the last month or so in. So...fine?

Touché

Piceli89

10-05-2009, 02:04 PM

I took 1st at the only event I've played in the last month or so in. So...fine?

Not to be an asshole, but the swamp in qtyties doesn't matter that much as long as you play against Goblins and Survival Elves..:wink:
Ok, ok, i answer your thoughts before you write it: you also faced Countertop and Merfolks, ok. But still you had lots of bye-matchups.

10-05-2009, 02:23 PM

Ok, ok, i answer your thoughts before you write it: you also faced Countertop and Merfolks, ok. But still you had lots of bye-matchups.

Unless you sit across from Force of Will or Chalice every round, that'll be the case. I certainly don't see any reason to complain about that either. :p

Piceli89

10-05-2009, 05:03 PM

Unless you sit across from Force of Will or Chalice every round, that'll be the case. I certainly don't see any reason to complain about that either. :p

I did sir, I did. Last tournament I did with TES I faced, off 6 swiss-round, 2 CB-based decks, 2 Dragon Stompy, 1 sort of Tempo threshold with Spellstutters and Standstill (and a fucking singleton misdirection in sb which of course he drew and with which he misdirected my Chant), and ..well..a Zoo. I think i'm the most unlucky TES player on the face of this planet. I think I'll take a plane and come to play it in your tourneys :D

10-05-2009, 09:14 PM

That's simply a case of the metagame, which, if knowing I'd face something like that, I'd just rip Ichorid out and win the tournament. Bad luck on your part, I suppose. The northeast has really taken off with a surge of aggro decks over the past few months, most namely tribal and zoo. Because they have favorable matchups over Counterbalance decks a lot of people are abandoning that strategy in favor of either other aggro decks or slower control decks like Landstill. This in particular makes storm combo an incredibly good deck to play in the northeastern metagame, and would at least attribute to Bryant's recent success.

And shame on those Dragon Stompy players for playing that deck in the first place. God forbid, it's a terrible deck.

Bryant Cook

10-09-2009, 10:54 AM

I've finally decided on a sideboard, with some help from Di.

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress (Di runs an infernal here)
SB:1 Echoing Truth (Di runs a Shattering Spree)
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:2 Deathmark
SB:3 Pyroblast

I wanted to make a sideboard less reliant on Mystical Tutor since it's weak as a 2x. Krosan Grip and Hurkyls left because of this. I kept Truth over Hurkyls because it's more versatile, it also leaves us an out against enchantments.

Jim Higginbottom

10-09-2009, 01:09 PM

I re-built my sb last weekend for the Phili 5k and its pretty similar to yours....

sb: 1 tendrils of agony
sb: 2 deathmark
sb: 1 empty the warrens
sb: 2 shattering spree
sb: 1 grapeshot
sb: 1 krosan grip
sb: 1 infernal tutor
sb: 1 diminishing returns
sb: 1 duress
sb: 1 ill-gotten gains
sb: 3 pyroblast

I still have 1 chain of vapor maindeck as well as a 3rd mystical tutor as I'm not running SSG so I don't need a echoing truth in the board.

10-09-2009, 01:20 PM

That 15th slot in Bryant's board should be a Krosan Grip, i'm assuming he just ironically forgot to list it, despite discussing it below.

lorddotm

10-09-2009, 02:17 PM

That 15th slot in Bryant's board should be a Krosan Grip, i'm assuming he just ironically forgot to list it, despite discussing it below.

Wouldn't an Infernal Tutor be better?

10-09-2009, 03:17 PM

It isn't my sideboard, so he can shape it however he wants. He isn't nearly as fond of the sideboard Infernal Tutor as I am, but I'm almost positive his last slot was a Krosan Grip. Maybe it was the Infernal Tutor, but I don't recall him keeping it in the board.

Bryant Cook

10-09-2009, 03:29 PM

Wow. I didn't even realize. I guess it's between Infernal and Grip. I'm thinking Tutor over Grip. Grip is rarely used nowadays.

Jim Higginbottom

10-11-2009, 09:41 PM

I went 5-3 today in Phili losing to 3 countertop decks (all pretty close matches) and beating dreadstill, elves, next level storm (probally the most interesting game 3 i've ever played...i had to get storm up over 20), zoo, and cephalid breakfast.

Jeff Kruchkow

10-12-2009, 01:03 AM

Wow. I didn't even realize. I guess it's between Infernal and Grip. I'm thinking Tutor over Grip. Grip is rarely used nowadays.

Its disappointing there isnt a sorcery speed Hurkyl's that is playable because, and I dont know if its just me, but I have had trouble getting the mana to get a shattering spree for enough to kill more than 2 CotVs or Trinis

BackDr0p

10-12-2009, 01:47 AM

Ideally what we need is a "Swiss Army Knife" of a spell which allows us to deal with problematic enchantments and artifacts:

2 :wu:
Sorcery (Obviously)
Return all artifacts and Enchantments to their owners hands.

I also often find that the deck, although very quick to go off with the inclusion of SSG's, has a hard time w/ enchantment based hate (e.i: Runed Halo) especially since it does not run Chain of Vapor MD anymore. It shouldn't be of too much concern considering that Teeg, Canonist's and Chalices make up the preferred combo hate.

emidln

10-12-2009, 01:51 AM

What we need is a "Return all artifacts and Enchantments to their owners hands" for 2 :wu:.

You need that as a sorcery. We have destroy all artifacts and enchants for 1W as an enchantment already.

lorddotm

10-12-2009, 01:53 AM

You need that as a sorcery. We have destroy all artifacts and enchants for 1W as an enchantment already.

Cause thats totally tutorable... good job.

emidln

10-12-2009, 02:05 AM

Cause thats totally tutorable... good job.

There's nothing stopping you from finding it with an Infernal Tutor. If you're going to try your hand at sarcastic comments, at least try to be factual.

BackDr0p

10-12-2009, 02:12 AM

Another thing which came to my attention is number of hands that have to be mulliganed due to 2x Chrome Mox. Maybe we can cut one of them to re-include Chain of Vapor. At least that way, we have an out to MD Teegs that and other random stuff which prevent us from winning.

This became a very apparent issue during the tourney (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=390601#post390601) I participated in this past Saturday. I had to mull quite a few time due to moxen ruining the fun. In fact the only time I ever wanted to see them, is off Ad Nauseam.

lorddotm

10-12-2009, 04:09 AM

There's nothing stopping you from finding it with an Infernal Tutor. If you're going to try your hand at sarcastic comments, at least try to be factual.

...okay I'm going to assume we know how to play TES. If you infernal tutor for a protection spel that isn't redundant, you won't win.

emidln I totally respect your skill with Storm Combo, but seriously? Why suggest a card that we know will not be used?

Jim Higginbottom

10-12-2009, 06:30 AM

Hopo

10-12-2009, 06:54 AM

...okay I'm going to assume we know how to play TES. If you infernal tutor for a protection spel that isn't redundant, you won't win.

emidln I totally respect your skill with Storm Combo, but seriously? Why suggest a card that we know will not be used?

Serenity is not useless at all. People have played it, and most likely it will be seen in sideboards in the future also. First or second turn Serenity guarantees a safe combo next turn versus any chalice/trinisphere-deck. It's more reliable than Spree if there are more than one lock pieces. Serenity may also be a factor in countertop matchups.

It's probably not the best option you have, but it's far from useless.

EDIT: If you are playing storm combo in chalice-heavy metagames, Serenity would be one of your best options.

Bryant Cook

10-12-2009, 09:20 AM

Serenity is not useless at all. People have played it, and most likely it will be seen in sideboards in the future also. First or second turn Serenity guarantees a safe combo next turn versus any chalice/trinisphere-deck. It's more reliable than Spree if there are more than one lock pieces. Serenity may also be a factor in countertop matchups.

It's probably not the best option you have, but it's far from useless.

EDIT: If you are playing storm combo in chalice-heavy metagames, Serenity would be one of your best options.

It's hard to take this seriously.

Infernal Tutor for Serenity Emildn? C'mon unless you already have one in hand it seems awful. Let's discard our hand to search up a card that doesn't win the game.

At probably Emildn's fake account - Serenity won't see play in the future. It's an enchantment in storm combo that doesn't help you win. It requires four slots in the sideboard in a deck that uses a wish board.

-It's white. The worst color in magic. (Orim's Chant is a black card let's be honest).

- It destroys our 12 artifact mana cards. Don't say it's irrelevant or not to play them before. It's not the same as slow combo decks that run 14-16 lands.

- Counterbalance? Because flipping a 2cc card doesn't answer Serenity? It's not a good answer.

GreenOne

10-12-2009, 09:43 AM

Ok guys, maybe you didn't read it correctly:

You need that as a sorcery. We have destroy all artifacts and enchants for 1W as an enchantment already.
Emidln just stated that the fake card Backdrop invented needed to be a Sorcery, to be tutorable with Burning Wish. Otherwise, if we didn't need a tutorable card, we could just play Serenity.

Cause thats totally tutorable... good job.
Here lorddotm just doesn't understand what emidln meant to say and points out that Serenity is non-tutorable. Emidln pointed it out in his post though.

There's nothing stopping you from finding it with an Infernal Tutor. If you're going to try your hand at sarcastic comments, at least try to be factual.
That's obviously sarcasm. Lorddotm did not understand that he already said that Serenity is not tutorable, and just brings it to a paradox where you tutor it with an hellbent IT.

Was that difficult to follow?

Hopo

10-12-2009, 10:10 AM

It's hard to take this seriously.

My point being:

It's probably not the best option you have, but it's far from useless.

EDIT: If you are playing storm combo in chalice-heavy metagames, Serenity would be one of your best options.

You cannot disagree about storm decks playing Serenity. It is a strong sideboard card against stax, as I stated. No need to get cocky about it. I have played it myself, and for me it has worked the way I described. It was also seen in emidln's sideboards, not sure about if it's there nowadays. Your arguments are kind of shallow: Sure, Serenity is white. So what? It destroys one of your artifact mana sources, which is hard to see as a bad of a drawback as you make it to be. If the option would be to die to lock pieces, I don't care about that one piece of artifact mana.

As I stated. It's probably not the best option, but an option anyway. And I trust I don't need to stress that different people actually have different kinds of builds of any given decks. Not everybody plays with 100 % your list. I'm sure many do, though. Meta's (should) dictate the lists and individual cards people use. I used Serenity when local meta was full of chalice aggro and affinity. I would play serenity over red blasts any time in such a meta.

Bryant Cook

10-17-2009, 09:53 PM

I took 2nd in Binghamton today. 40+ people. A report will be up soon, I have some insane plays to share.

Gibsonmac

10-17-2009, 10:08 PM

I took 2nd in Binghamton today. 40+ people. A report will be up soon, I have some insane plays to share.

Same Jackson dude BAMF

Is it a bad choice to play shock lands instead of duals, I realize duals are obv. better, but my reasoning is that f my entire deck is jap, except 3 cards, would it really hurt that much to play shocks? I mean you take damage from city already? or does it fuck up the ad nauseum with the 2 damage as opposed to 1 or none with real duals?

This isn't purely OCD here, shocks are easier for me to get ahold of...

BackDr0p

10-17-2009, 10:20 PM

Bryant, I'm looking forward to read it. I'll be taking TES to a 35+ man tourney this coming Saturday and I'm hoping to do as well as you. Also, will you be present at the November 14th tournament in Vestal?

Note: Finally some activity in the TES thread, the discussion has the tendancy to stall for a while then start up again.

Jim Higginbottom

10-17-2009, 10:51 PM

imho you would be better off running forbidden orchard and a undiscovered paradise than running shock lands.

BackDr0p

10-18-2009, 12:01 AM

Yeah, you're much better off running the old TES manabase:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Forbidden Orchard
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Just beware of the extra dmg tokens created can deal to you. Especially after repeated use for cantripping. It's the reason why we replaced them w/ Underground Seas and a Volcanic Island.

Bryant Cook

10-18-2009, 05:14 PM

Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=392605#post392605)

Jim Higginbottom

10-19-2009, 10:30 AM

If I had beaten Merfolk round 2 I wouldn't of played Tariq White round 3 and would probally of top 8ed as well. I was okay with top 16 and my $12 store credit though since it got me my last foil rite of flame and a crucible for edh.

lorddotm

10-19-2009, 07:05 PM

Could Spell Pierce replace Pryoblast in the board?

Bryant Cook

10-19-2009, 07:23 PM

Could Spell Pierce replace Pryoblast in the board?

This is interesting. But.. is there anything we need to counter that isn't blue? Not to mention, pyro destroys resolved spells.

BackDr0p

10-19-2009, 07:27 PM

Spell Pierce?

The problem I see with the card is the lack of versatility. It does nothing relevant against Landstill and their most troublesome card against us (Meddling Mage). At least Pyroblast is red (Duh) and can be cast off Rite of Flame and Simian Spirit Guide. Pyroblast is also a guarenteed hard counter/removal against Merfolk for example. The only situation where I would love to see Spell Pierce in my board would be in a meta filled with Dragon Stompy, Stax or any chalice aggro deck for that matter.

Edit: Bryant, you beat me to the punch.

lorddotm

10-19-2009, 07:46 PM

It was an idea since it still stops CB while countering almost everything relevant that blast counters, but also hits Hymn, Chalice, Sphere, and missing out only on Mage, which deathmark hits.

BackDr0p

10-19-2009, 08:13 PM

That would mean 5 cards would need to be sided in against blue decks packing hate-bears. Thus, reducing the overall effectiveness of the deck but, improving very difficult MU's. It definitely warrants some testing though.

Piceli89

10-20-2009, 04:24 PM

lorddotm

10-20-2009, 04:41 PM

Ok, i picked the deck again just to give it a try and decide between it and ANT/DDay.
@ Bryant Cock: while i agree on you about SBing out Mysticals against blue decks, against which matchups would you bring Echoing Truth in? Against Stax? Also, you autolose to Rule of Law or to any other Enchantment like Solitary Confinement if you didn't boarded in Echoing Truth (and even with it, 1-ofs seems a bit insufficient). Perhaps we'd have to find a slot that can make Disenchant. Also, all those "Diminishing returns into GARBAGE" should make you think a bit. Even with 2 SSGs which have improved the deck since the last version, DReturns still remains an excessively randomic Timetwister. Still worth a sb slot?

I've been thinking that too. Returns is really a crap shoot, which doesn't work well with combo decks, plus 80% of the time EtW would accomplish the same task (kill with other dude without Tendrils)

I've been thinking about testing Cunning Wish. It lets us wish for AdN which is something that would be amazing in this deck. Also, we could wish for Cabal Ritual, Angel's Grace, Echoing Truth, Pyroblast, and others. ZThe casting cost kind of sucks though and would require the dropping of SSG for something that costs less (dare I say tinder wall?)

Bryant Cook

10-20-2009, 05:59 PM

@ Bryant Cock: while i agree on you about SBing out Mysticals against blue decks, against which matchups would you bring Echoing Truth in? Against Stax? Also, you autolose to Rule of Law or to any other Enchantment like Solitary Confinement if you didn't boarded in Echoing Truth (and even with it, 1-ofs seems a bit insufficient). Perhaps we'd have to find a slot that can make Disenchant. Also, all those "Diminishing returns into GARBAGE" should make you think a bit. Even with 2 SSGs which have improved the deck since the last version, DReturns still remains an excessively randomic Timetwister. Still worth a sb slot?

Mature. Decks that play Gaddeck Teeg/Pillar/Chalice/Enchantments/Random shit. Why would Disenchant be any better? I'll pack it to confinement or rule of law. They see literally 0 play, unless enchantress becomes a DTB.

I feel like returns is a must, even with a bad day like that, ETW wouldn't have always gotten the job done. IGG doesn't work versus blue.

I've been thinking that too. Returns is really a crap shoot, which doesn't work well with combo decks, plus 80% of the time EtW would accomplish the same task (kill with other dude without Tendrils)

I've been thinking about testing Cunning Wish. It lets us wish for AdN which is something that would be amazing in this deck. Also, we could wish for Cabal Ritual, Angel's Grace, Echoing Truth, Pyroblast, and others. ZThe casting cost kind of sucks though and would require the dropping of SSG for something that costs less (dare I say tinder wall?)

Cunning Wish just seems terrible. Running a 3cc card in order to play a 5cc card so you can take multiple 3cc damage.

Sevryn

10-20-2009, 06:15 PM

lol you don't need to worry about enchantress, even if it does become a DTB. Enchantress doesn't do anything relevant until turn 3... pretty sure you won by now.

Wargoos

10-20-2009, 06:44 PM

@ Bryant Cock,...

Aww, c'mon cook's cool , like he can make good food, you can't disregard that!

Also I'm currently thinking about building this again to post in this thread and show how cool I am! My next deck 'll get pimped, so it's hard decision - this or the titty-di elfes . Uhm uhm.

Piceli89

10-20-2009, 07:04 PM

Mature. Decks that play Gaddeck Teeg/Pillar/Chalice/Enchantments/Random shit. Why would Disenchant be any better? I'll pack it to confinement or rule of law. They see literally 0 play, unless enchantress becomes a DTB.

I feel like returns is a must, even with a bad day like that, ETW wouldn't have always gotten the job done. IGG doesn't work versus blue.

Cunning Wish just seems terrible. Running a 3cc card in order to play a 5cc card so you can take multiple 3cc damage.

"Make Disenchant"="Destroy target Enchantment or Artifact" in general, not "1W-Instant-Destroy target Enchantment or Artifact". I was referring to the fact that now that Krosan Grip left, a Wishable solution that could work for that purpose shouldn't be that bad. I'm thinking to the M10 3cc white "Disenchant" that makes you gain 4 life. Can also be good against counterbalance, if needed. Please don't answer me "Really? Burning WIsh wouldn't pass through Counterbalance to grab that". urning wish is WAY more likely to pass through CB than how Pyroblast is. Plus, that card can be also good against random problematics. I just don't see the logics behind boarding in 1 Echoing Truth, when you have Deathmarks for hate bears, Sprees for artifacts, but actually lack a Wishable answer for enchantments. And Echoing truth can be only tutored via Mysticals, which, as you say by yourself, suck ass in here.

..As for Cock, pardon. A Lapsus, i guess.

A Freudian one.

Running a 3cc card in order to play a 5cc card so you can take multiple 3cc damage.

This could be applied to Simian Spirit Guide too, in a certain sense. But, as SSG is always useful when starting the combo even if doesn't involve AdN , he wanted to mean that CWish can be as much as versatile in grabbing other things than bombs.
The problem, lorddotm, is that this deck is already stuck with tutors, and CWish doesn't fit in here just because it's too expensive for the deck, apart from AdNauseam. TES really can't have 3 mana to cast it when it'd be at its greatest function, i.e. opponent's eot. It would probably require a ritual or a mana source in casting it.

Bryant Cook

10-20-2009, 07:37 PM

"Make Disenchant"="Destroy target Enchantment or Artifact" in general, not "1W-Instant-Destroy target Enchantment or Artifact". I was referring to the fact that now that Krosan Grip left, a Wishable solution that could work for that purpose shouldn't be that bad. I'm thinking to the M10 3cc white "Disenchant" that makes you gain 4 life. Can also be good against counterbalance, if needed. Please don't answer me "Really? Burning WIsh wouldn't pass through Counterbalance to grab that". urning wish is WAY more likely to pass through CB than how Pyroblast is. Plus, that card can be also good against random problematics. I just don't see the logics behind boarding in 1 Echoing Truth, when you have Deathmarks for hate bears, Sprees for artifacts, but actually lack a Wishable answer for enchantments. And Echoing truth can be only tutored via Mysticals, which, as you say by yourself, suck ass in here.

I didn't board in Krosan grip unless counterbalance was in the picture. Echoing Truth does a sufficient enough job against enchantments. It also comes in versus Teeg/Cannonist which I run into quite a bit over here. I'll take the versatility. Which is why I run pyroblast, it comes in against Merfolk and Landstill. Not just counterbalance or decks with Enchantments, which are dead in the Northeast U.S.

Jim Higginbottom

10-21-2009, 02:35 PM

Diminishing Returns often allows you to win games that otherwise are simply unwinnable. I can't tell you the number of times I've made 12-14 goblins and had them quickly removed the next turn. Making goblins is rarely the right move.

BackDr0p

10-21-2009, 08:40 PM

It's true that when given to opportunity to win "now", rather than "in the next two attack steps", I would choose the latter. Especially, if I run the risk of my opponent top decking or cantripping into <insert random sweeper> during the following turns.

Personally, I rarely end up going Diminishing Return unless I have no other option (or if my opponent lets me stack my deck, while they're looking the other way pile shuffle). At the moment T.E.S has no other viable/legal options in that slot. It would be awesome to have some sort of calculated approach, like an Ill-Gotten Gains loop FTW.

Edit: I don't know know what I was thinking when I posted this. The color requirements are too intense for TES to support. We need a total of 7 mana + W (for protected IGG piles) for it to even work (1R + BBB + 1U/UU). On top of that, all of the mana has to either come from INS's or ritual effects, since LED's don't really help us out at all in that situation.

That being said Diminishing Returns fills our "All In" option in our SB for now.

"Maybe Doomsday?"

The card in itself is amazing, allowing for a large storm count with a minimal effort. Unfortunately, without Sensei's Divining Top and Meditate in the deck, it loses alot of it's effectiveness. I find that it requires about the same amount of effort as [LED, LED + Tutor/Wish etc.] to set up.

I am considering Doomsday because, there are plenty of piles which are playable with cantrips for immediate use and do not necessarily rely on Top. I mustn't forget to mention the few "Pass The Turn" piles which can create a lethal, 9 storm + Tendrils.

(Click here (http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9) for Doomsday Piles)

Now the question is: Can doomsday be played in TES, even though it lacks the stability of SDT based combo like NLS and FT/DD Hybrids? Could it have potential?

Bryant Cook

10-22-2009, 01:52 PM

This whole strikeout thing you're doing is annoying.

Doomsday is a terrible idea without top.

Fuzzy

10-27-2009, 07:50 PM

This whole strikeout thing you're doing is annoying.

Doomsday is a terrible idea without top.

But u still can combo out with Ponder/Brainstorm. U really think Doomsday don't deserves a SB slot?

The only problem is: Where we can put 1 Meditate/Infernal Contract?

Jim Higginbottom

10-27-2009, 10:19 PM

If we could run 30 card sideboards doomsday MIGHT get a spot.

Fuzzy

10-28-2009, 02:06 PM

If we could run 30 card sideboards doomsday MIGHT get a spot.

For me it's a lot better than Returns.

BreathWeapon

10-28-2009, 04:11 PM

For me it's a lot better than Returns.

You're doing it wrong, DDAY sucks in TES ... believe me, I tried it way before you.

Jeff Kruchkow

10-28-2009, 05:02 PM

For me it's a lot better than Returns.

Without sounding like a colossal ass, the reason that Doomsday isn't really a god fit for TES is that by the time you have enough mana and a cantrip to use doomsday, its incredibly likely you can use AdN or IGG to win. Likewise, all the Doomsday->Go piles that would be the sort of last ditch that diminishing returns is require a higher land count than TES offers.

emidln

10-29-2009, 12:14 AM

Without sounding like a colossal ass, the reason that Doomsday isn't really a god fit for TES is that by the time you have enough mana and a cantrip to use doomsday, its incredibly likely you can use AdN or IGG to win. Likewise, all the Doomsday->Go piles that would be the sort of last ditch that diminishing returns is require a higher land count than TES offers.

The reason that Doomsday works without a good Doomsday-Go pile in NLS or FT is that those decks forced themselves to play 4x SDT. SDT, while it isn't the worst card ever, is still bad in TES with lands that not only don't shuffle your deck, but either disappear or do you damage for using them. A secondary issue is that Rite of Flame doesn't cast Doomsday, leaving you with 6 realistic ways of getting there (10 if you don't mind Wish cracking LED and passing the turn, although keep in mind that the cheapest pass the turn pile that doesn't require infinite random shit in your library (i.e. works in a storm deck) requires 3UR the next turn, 2U of which are meditate and won't be able to be paid by your non-existent hand or LEDs. this pile isn't even completely lethal unless you sb out 1x Burning Wish or your opp is at 18 or less life)). Now, Rite of Flame is good in TES and it's great in ANT in general because it can lessen the amount of IMS that you need to flip with AdN.

To fully abuse the power of Doomsday in a deck you'd want to have something like this:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1+ Infernal Tutor
1+ Doomsday
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

The thing is, once you've gone this far, you might as well just continue building NLS. TES's manabase won't support the SDTs, and you have to litter your maindeck with 4 SDT and 1 Meditate extra just to support Wishable Doomsday if you want it to do anything with it outside of cornercase shit. Your sideboard requiring Doomsday and Infernal Contract to be added is also probably problematic given how tight most TES sideboards are. FWIW, Contract lets you play Doomsday piles with just Burning Wish and 1RBBB available (so Wish + LED) that nets you something like Petal, LED, Rit, IT, Tendrils.

You might also notice that in lists with Doomsday (i.e. NLS or the UBwg hybrid), Doomsday is a tier one win condition. This is due to forced design constraints (like 10+ cantrips) to make it almost as efficient as Ad Nauseam (although you can argue that Ad Nauseam is less efficient in either deck than in TES, which I'd agree with, although efficiency when you're drawing 15+ cards usually don't matter). While there exist Doomsday, go piles that we can use in desperate situations, it's extremely rare (less than 1 in 300 games) where you actually do that thanks to so many cantrips.

Strangely, there was a time when Burning Wish->Doomsday was viable in TES, but I realized the correct piles for that almost immediately before LED and Wish were nerfed to take out the most interesting uses of it. Wish->Doomsday, go was a perfectly fine play with 2 IMS and an LED pre-M10. This is still worse than Diminishing Returns, but it could create a lot of very interesting situations vs aggro that don't involve as much gambling (aggro isn't taking you from 10 to 0 in a single turn) on DReturns or ETW. Only requiring 1RBBB turn 1 and then 5 more (3UR, all of which was playable off LED mana) on your combo turn was very enticing. Mox imprint, land, rite, wish->dday, rit, doomsday, led, go could win the game pre-M10.

Personal Tutor is probably more effective in the sb if you are looking for a bomb next turn but don't want to just bite the bullet and wish for IT to begin with.

LostButSeeking

10-29-2009, 01:29 AM

So, no one in my meta plays black storm, at all. I decide to trade for all the individual pieces (I already have Dredge, so I had the leds) and sleeve up the deck. (I should stipulate that I'm short the two USeas-I've replaced them with an undiscovered paradise and a forbidden orchard).

So, I sleeve it up, shuffle, and draw my first seven cards.

Led, Led, Land, Land, Chant, Petal, Infernal Tutor

Oh God, I think I'm in love.

badjuju

10-29-2009, 01:35 AM

Gibsonmac

10-29-2009, 02:09 AM

Yeah dude, me tooooo! Ilove this fucking deck, I built it for shits, after seeing bryant's deck in the pimp thread... had to jap that shit, didn't think it would be so fun.

Skub

10-30-2009, 10:59 AM

Last weekend I played a tournament with the sideboard posted on the first page of this thread. I really missed more artifact and creature removal. For a next tournament I am going to try:

-2 Deathmark
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Infernal Tutor (I rarely used it)

+1 Shattering Spree
+3 Chain of Vapor (combined creature and enchantment removal)

So a new sideboard would be:

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Duress
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Chain of Vapor
SB:3 Shattering Spree

Bryant Cook

10-30-2009, 01:09 PM

detroitpro

10-30-2009, 03:41 PM

Am I missing something here....how does T.E.S beat belcher? Duress? I'm not suggesting that it can't but I don't know how to play against it

lorddotm

10-30-2009, 03:42 PM

Am I missing something here....how does T.E.S beat belcher? Duress? I'm not suggesting that it can't but I don't know how to play against it

Chant and Duress.

detroitpro

10-30-2009, 03:43 PM

Thanks!

Jeff Kruchkow

10-30-2009, 05:19 PM

Am I missing something here....how does T.E.S beat belcher? Duress? I'm not suggesting that it can't but I don't know how to play against it

Chant, Duress and also, if they go empty the warrens, we have 2 more turns to win and given that they have almost no disruption that shouldn't be hard. Basically in my experience, you just try and win faster than they can and use chants as time walks.

Piceli89

10-31-2009, 06:41 AM

Am I missing something here....
You should have asked how this deck can win against Canadian Threshold, especially now that many lists are packing Spell Pierce in the sideboard. Seriously, a single Wasteland at the right time pretty much screws this off, and double chant is hard to achieve. You can go off via Wish+LED after having had your Chant Forced, but if you go for the Tendrils/EtW route that chain rolls over both to Stifle and Spell Snare, which they both play in 4x.
And, as i was saying, TT's mana denial strategy makes the inclusion of Spell Pierce post-sb a real hard counter for this deck, given the low number of lands , and the fact that they are all non-basics.

BackDr0p

11-04-2009, 12:03 AM

They side out burn we side in this (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43564).

The MU has worsened, since Spell Pierce has become an inclusion in most Canadian Threshold side boards. The amount of counters we have to deal with in that MU has become exhaustive. In order to go off, 2+ pieces of protection are needed. Xantid Swarm can solve this problem for us. CT (Canadian Thresh) players can choose to keep burn in to deal w/ it (and dilute the amount of cards "useful" against us) or have no answer for it. So far, it has proven to be quite effective in testing. The problem is choosing what to cut from the board.

Bryant Cook

11-04-2009, 09:16 AM

BreathWeapon

11-04-2009, 10:28 AM

A combination of Warrens and Swarms does really, really well vs Tempo-Thresh, Warrens turns the game into Stifle yes/no? GG! Firespout was the best thing to happen to TES in awhile, because it pushed the fundamental turn of their sweeper back 1 and they have to cantrip for lands instead of counters. The match up is winnable, we just have to adjust to their weak points and punish them.

Bryant Cook

11-04-2009, 10:35 AM

I don't know if Swarm is the best option. Players around here keep some burn in because of Ad Nauseam. Hoping to make it weaker/kill you because of it.

BreathWeapon

11-05-2009, 01:51 AM

Xantid Swarm is the only thing getting past their 1cc counters, I don't see anything else we can do regardless of removal unless we're loading up on Chant/Silence to duck Spellsnare and Stifle.

Jeff Kruchkow

11-05-2009, 02:18 AM

Tempo Thresh is not good but its also far from being as horrible as CB+Top. The fact is that only force is really a hard counter and due to being threat light they can have a hard time putting on a clock. The best way ive found is to save lands till you need them and play your chants only when you can have it daze proof. Its not good but its not horrible. Stifle isnt really an issue as if we AdN you are incredibly likely to have a duress and Spell snare sucks vs AdN. Basically, playing smart with your chants and lands should get you through.

lorddotm

11-05-2009, 09:07 AM

An important part of this matchup for me has always been Duress. It can be used to take out their Forces and other scary cards.

Concerning Spell Pierce, I am much more afraid of Disrupt. Being able to dirsupt (no pun intended) and draw a card is huge, and makes this matchup more difficult.

Bryant Cook

11-07-2009, 04:32 PM

I don't know why you guys are trying to fix what's already broken. Seriously, there's nothing that can really be done unless there's a metagame shift or a new set that comes out.

Gibsonmac

11-09-2009, 11:16 PM

I don't know why you guys are trying to fix what's already broken. Seriously, there's nothing that can really be done unless there's a metagame shift or a new set that comes out.

What do you mean? the deck is bad now?

JeroenC

11-10-2009, 02:40 AM

Anybody have any ideas if this would be the right deck to run at a Grand Prix? It seems strong enough to beat the random masses, but the masses of CBTop I do expect rather frighten me. Can I just run the "stock" list, or are there any modifications I should look for?

Jim Higginbottom

11-10-2009, 10:45 AM

Both legacy GPs are too far away to say what the meta will look like.

Bryant Cook

11-11-2009, 09:09 AM

Both legacy GPs are too far away to say what the meta will look like.

This.

What do you mean? the deck is bad now?

No. There's nothing to fix.

BackDr0p

11-11-2009, 12:37 PM

I'm really considering putting back K. Grip in the board, due to the possible influx of CB+Top (Supreme Blue) decks at this saturdays Vestal tourney. The only problem is that I'm still not to sure wether it is worth the inclusion. Tutoring into a singleton answer (or hoping to draw into it) sucks.

Note: I'll prolly kick myself for not having it at one point. Thats life.

I've read over your reports (and primer) however I still do find certain MU's very problematic. CDN Thresh (with Spell Pierce) in particular. Sure, I could add Xantid Swarms to fight this, but they become much less effective against a broader field such as this one. Swarm does nothing to fight CB, but it does = GG against any blue deck not packing the CB+Top when it resolves.

Bryant what do you expect the meta to be like? Any words of wisdom?

Bryant Cook

11-11-2009, 12:52 PM

Bryant Cook

11-16-2009, 09:36 AM

I decided to run Xantid Swarm over Pyroblast this weekend. I wasn't too impressed but I didn't hate it either. I'll do more testing on the subject, Swarm was amazing against Merfolk but sucked versus counterbalance.

BackDr0p

11-16-2009, 11:31 AM

The meta at this weekends Jupiter Games tourney was ill suited for Swarm in general. The prevalence of CounterTop and lack of Merfolk contributed to this. They did help me win against the Mermen and Landstill, but unfortunately did not show when facing Canadian Thresh (the matchup I so desperately wanted to improve, because of the inclusion of Spell Pierce in many lists) and Meathooks.

I ended up going 3-3 Drop. Winning against Eva Green (Diminishing Returns is awesome), Landstill and Merfolk. Losing to Ichorid (His T1 win on the play/back to back Cabal Therapy followed by Breathrough G2, after mulling to 4), Canadian Thresh and Meathooks.

My board ended up looking like this:

3 Swarm
1 Diminishing Returns (MVP, teh nutz)
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils
1 ETW
1 IGG
1 IT
2 Spree
2 Grip
2 Deathmark

If I would return to a similar meta, I would make the following changes:

+3 Pyroblast, -3 Xantid Swarm

Canadian Thresh, although present didn't come in the numbers I predicted. I guess people expecting lots of Zoo, resulted in the significant amount of combo players piloting anything from TES, DD/FT, ANT to CRET Belcher. The meta responded with Counterbalance, especially the Japanese inspired lists to shore up MU such as Zoo and Merfolk.

Jim Higginbottom

11-16-2009, 05:16 PM

even though we're susposed to just win faster I still think pyroblast is amazing in shoring up the ichorid matchup and I wouldn't want to cut it for a 0/1 flyer....

BackDr0p

11-16-2009, 11:10 PM

Bryant Cook

11-19-2009, 10:35 AM

Ichorid is practically non-existant in my meta. On the downside, Tempo Thresh is at an all time high. Packing REB's and BEB's to counter our cantrips and tutors. On top of that, they bring in Spell Pierce. That card is a 1 CMC card that essentially hard counters all of our spells. The only way to cope with this is to include Xantid Swarms. Although, it does not help our CB MU, in the right meta (Merfolk, CDN Thesh) they are pretty much a storm oriented version of Goblin Lackey

I'm considering a Xantid maindeck right now. It would be a one of, for a few reasons.

1.) I wouldn't want my opponent playing knowing I play creatures.
2.) It's awesome versus Merfolk and Threshold.
3.) It's Japanese Foil, my 3rd Duress isn't (The real reason).

I don't know if I missed Pyroblasts in the board or If I just had bad luck...

Jim Higginbottom

11-19-2009, 10:53 AM

backdr0p: do you run 4 duress main deck?

BackDr0p

11-20-2009, 03:51 AM

No. My list only runs 7 pieces of protection MD:

3 Duress
3 Orim's Chant
1 Silence

Bryant, a Xantid Swarm singleton MD is an interesting suggestion. It would allows us to basically set ourselves up unhindered if we manage to resolve the insect. The only concern I have, it the fact that we lose the ability to get information from our opponents. Duress allows us to not only get rid of a troublesome spell, but plan our turns ahead of time. Xantid Swarm doesn't solve our CB MU problem. In fact, cutting a duress actually makes it worse.

I can't really say anything until the addition of Xantid Swarm has been thoroughly tested. Although personally, I do have issue with random one-ofs (consistency, drawing or cantripping into it when needed, etc.) , if you look at the card as an "Orim's Chant" #5, it isn't so bad though.

Note:

Do not forget to put back the 3rd Duress in the sideboard.

Edit:

I wish the damn card had haste.

BreathWeapon

11-20-2009, 04:27 AM

Bryant Cook

11-20-2009, 09:07 AM

Tried 3 Chant, 2 Swarm and 3 Duress? The odd STP sucks, but at least the Swarm is more consistent and you can Infernal for a 2nd copy. Tho' I can't really see why you'd guys want to MD Swarm, you don't need to counter Spell Pierce until game 2 and game 1 he's just Bolt bait. Are you just opening SB space?

I actually like the maindeck right now. I think it's damn near perfect for the time being (minus the five non-japanese foils). But the sideboard wants both Swarms and Blasts. There really isn't enough room. Plus boarding in 6 cards against counterbalance would be brutal. There's not enough to take out and you'd be diluting the deck.

Gibsonmac

11-20-2009, 09:23 AM

I actually like the maindeck right now. I think it's damn near perfect for the time being (minus the five non-japanese foils). But the sideboard wants both Swarms and Blasts. There really isn't enough room. Plus boarding in 6 cards against counterbalance would be brutal. There's not enough to take out and you'd be diluting the deck.

Hey man, what is the current 75? anything change besides swarm?

Bryant Cook

11-20-2009, 09:54 AM

Hey man, what is the current 75? anything change besides swarm?

Like always, the most recent list is on the opening page. If I haven't changed it, it's because I'm unsure about it.

tgDC$

11-23-2009, 02:43 AM

I attended a legacy event today in L.A going 4-2 and taking 14th with about 45 people showing if i remember correctly. I ran bryant's 60 md. Ill try and write up a report soon. Im liking this deck alot and mad props to bryant

Dark_Shakuras

11-23-2009, 03:40 AM

tgDC$

11-23-2009, 03:55 AM

If u were playing LED Ichorid then yes you beat me round 1, or if u were playing Red burn round 3 then yes i beat you round 3

Dark_Shakuras

11-23-2009, 12:56 PM

If u were playing LED Ichorid then yes you beat me round 1, or if u were playing Red burn round 3 then yes i beat you round 3

I was playing LED Ichorid. Yeah, you had some really bad luck game 3 against me.

JeroenC

11-29-2009, 06:21 AM

I've been testing out Spell Pierce in the REB sideboard slot. I've been liking it so far for a number of reasons
-on the "combo turn", blue mana tends to be less necessary, whereas red mana is also needed in the combo.
-it also counters artifact hate. There are no more blue creatures we need to counter anyway (at least I've never seen a Meddling Mage lately), so Spell Pierce counters anything.
-it's better in the mirror, against Ichorid and many other "faster" decks. Also counters any dangerous burn after Ad Nauseam, if necessary.
-I can drop all Volcanic Islands for Underground Seas (though testing on that is not yet final, so don't take this for granted).

Edit: and I almost forgot, the odds for REB to destroy a Counterbalance (through Tops, Brainstorms and such) are ridiculously low anyway. So that's also a function I'm very hesitant to rely on REB for.

Bryant Cook

11-29-2009, 10:59 PM

You leave out the part that it's really easy for control decks to just pay two mana. I'd like to try these. I'm not too impressed with REB or Xantid at the moment.

emidln

11-30-2009, 01:14 AM

You leave out the part that it's really easy for control decks to just pay two mana. I'd like to try these. I'm not too impressed with REB or Xantid at the moment.

I think you lose a lot of people here. The key to his statement here is that we as storm combo players don't do anything to make control decks spend much mana on their turn. Given that we are trying to find 3-4 initial colored sources to pay B+R for combo cards then two (W/U/R/B) for chant/silence/reb/duress/pierce with the additional W/U/R/B each needed outside of the initial B+R most of the time, we often stall until turn 3-4 (or later). At this point, it's actually really easy for an opponent to simply tap two lands to pay for our Spell Pierce.

BreathWeapon

11-30-2009, 08:20 AM

If you guys are looking for a non-Xantid Swarm answer to Tempo Thresh, I had some reasonable success with Defense Grid last Sunday. By itself, it's not better than Xantid Swarm or Vexing Shusher, but considering it's removal proof and it prevents them from burning you out after you resolve Ad Nauseam it might have it's own niche.

Bryant Cook

11-30-2009, 09:35 AM

I think you lose a lot of people here. The key to his statement here is that we as storm combo players don't do anything to make control decks spend much mana on their turn. Given that we are trying to find 3-4 initial colored sources to pay B+R for combo cards then two (W/U/R/B) for chant/silence/reb/duress/pierce with the additional W/U/R/B each needed outside of the initial B+R most of the time, we often stall until turn 3-4 (or later). At this point, it's actually really easy for an opponent to simply tap two lands to pay for our Spell Pierce.

What ^ said.

JeroenC

11-30-2009, 12:21 PM

I see. I'll admit I hadn't tested it all that much when I made the suggestion, but I'll continue to test it if I find the time. And see what it gives.

LostButSeeking

11-30-2009, 06:13 PM

Before we get away from the Spell Pierce discussion, I've been having trouble with decks that are packing 4 duress and 4 thoughtseize. If I don't go off turn 1, he looks at my hands, sees if I'm lacking business or mana, and then takes what I need, the result being I'm twice as poor in whatever department I was having trouble with before. I was thinking of boarding in spell pierce for chant effects against these decks, as chant is really worse than useless here. Thoughts?

emidln

11-30-2009, 06:29 PM

LostButSeeking

11-30-2009, 06:45 PM

Disrupt is probably better against discard decks. Dark Confidant is probably passable as well. Both of those are lacking against decks without heavy discard though.

Those are good ideas, thanks. I'll let you know how it goes.

tgDC$

12-06-2009, 11:52 PM

Bryant Cook

12-07-2009, 09:10 AM

Since I'm relatively new to this deck I wanted to ask the veteran players of this build on the proper steps to take when up against hate in the form of pyrostatic pillar, chalice, 3spheres. Like what kind of hands should I be keeping, do I mull agressively into some form of answer etc.

You can just win through Pillar with Ill-Gotten Gains and Tendrils. There's often a Empty the Warrens option which will lock out the other player with their own Pillar. Chalice and Trinisphere, blow up, it's possible to just play through chalice. If they chalice for 0 go for Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam. If you're forced to tap out do it on their endstep, untap, and win. If they chalice for 1, use infernal tutors to get multiple LED's, then Burning Wish/Infernal for Ill-Gotten Gains. Get back 2x LED, Tutor.

I don't mulligan aggressively at all. I'm lazy. I also feel like this deck is very unforgiving with mulligans.

Pelikanudo

12-07-2009, 03:16 PM

Hello I read in the 1st page about the Deck,
the strategy vs ichorid was to side out 4 orims and put in the blasts, for the reason that they possibility of buying us some time, where Orims buys 1 full turn,

I'm seriously thinking in bringing TES to the GP Madrid, I expect Merfolks and Canadian massively,
My idea regarding to the most recent list from B.Cook is to take out those simians and putting in +1Mystical+1Volcanic, reforcing a very litle the mana base , regarding mystical, I prefer that instead of 1 SSG.

The siding strategy would be: +3 pyroblasts = -1ponder, -1brainstorm,-1Ill gotens, which will be yours?

Do you boys leave the mox in vs canadian?, better, Bryant could you tell me how do you exactly side vs Canadian?

Bryant when will you put in finally the 12th land :tongue: ?
mystical in my opinion shines in 2nd game because of the possibilities it offers searching the key card, thats why I prefer to keep 3, before I played with the full package but never wanted 2 of them in hand , I mean the number 3 represents "I want always 1 but never 2 in hand",

I'm also thinking of replacing finally the IGG , I mean If you want to win with no A.N you are not obligate to win with the one in main:
maybe the +1Mystical=-1IGG could be the key. letting the rest of deck intact

tgDC$

12-07-2009, 06:50 PM

You can just win through Pillar with Ill-Gotten Gains and Tendrils. There's often a Empty the Warrens option which will lock out the other player with their own Pillar. Chalice and Trinisphere, blow up, it's possible to just play through chalice. If they chalice for 0 go for Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam. If you're forced to tap out do it on their endstep, untap, and win. If they chalice for 1, use infernal tutors to get multiple LED's, then Burning Wish/Infernal for Ill-Gotten Gains. Get back 2x LED, Tutor.

I don't mulligan aggressively at all. I'm lazy. I also feel like this deck is very unforgiving with mulligans.

Thanks for the tips. Ill start practicing with these ideas in mind

andrew77

12-07-2009, 07:25 PM

I'm seriously thinking in bringing TES to the GP Madrid, I expect Merfolks and Canadian massively,

Honestly if you expect to see those why wouldn't you play zoo? If you do want to play TES and expect those I would consider running xantid swarm in the board. Merfolk loses to it if it resolves as they have no removal and Canadian thresh usually sides out their removal. They might keep the bolts, but fire/ice gets sided out every time.

JeroenC

12-07-2009, 10:30 PM

I have no idea why you'd ever run TES if you're expecting massive amounts of Tempo Thresh. I'm not expecting huge amounts of it, which is why I'm running this (probably) in Madrid. Merfolk and CBTop I could expect, but I'm not hoping to run into any TT. Definitely not more than one. I'm not (too) afraid of the Merfolk matchup (though I will still be testing it extensively) but Tempo Thresh is the one matchup I hate with any combo deck. Taking away my precious mana+a relevant countersuite+Spell Pierce in the side? No thank you.

Bryant Cook

12-08-2009, 12:10 AM

andrew77

12-08-2009, 12:42 AM

Tempo thresh isn't that bad. They don't run cb/top so they can't just lock you out of the game. Merfolk is rough though and if you play against black cb/top its basically an autoloss. If you somehow beat black cb/top it means you got very very lucky.

Anyway, I recently started testing TES again and I am working on a list that will definitely be quite different from the current lists that are floating around. A bit of a throwback to the TES of old. I'll post it after I actually get some more testing done.

JeroenC

12-08-2009, 06:44 AM

Guess that means I need to do more relevant testing(and less boozing). I just don't like Wasteland, Force, Daze and Spell Snare.
@andrew: interested in your list.

FredMaster

12-08-2009, 06:44 AM

I'm not afraid of Tempo Thresh at all. They have 4 relevant cards in their maindeck.
Assuming that you have the Chant-effect of course.
If that is not the case they'll have Spell Snare and Stifles as well (and sometimes even Clique).
Plus you have to expect Burnspells when you have a resolved AN.

Just saying...

andrew77

12-08-2009, 07:01 AM

Guess that means I need to do more relevant testing(and less boozing). I just don't like Wasteland, Force, Daze and Spell Snare.
@andrew: interested in your list.

Without cb/top to lock you there will be time for you to rebuild and attempt to combo off again even if they stop the first or second attempt. Everytime you cast ad nauseum it is a must counter. They also have to counter chants if you can threaten to go off after they resolve.

artiste

12-08-2009, 08:51 AM

Hi! I brought TES to a local tournament yesterday here in Madrid. Went 3-0 and then split the top 2, getting some credit for a misty rainforest.

Here's my list and a mini tournament report (I didn't take any notes during the tournament, this is all from memory, sorry):

4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x U. Sea
1x V. Island

4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
2x Simian Spirit Guide
4x LED
4x Lotus Petal
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Orim's Chant
2x Silence
1x Tendril's of Agony
1x Ad Nauseum
1x Ill Gotten Gains
4x Burning Wish
2x Mystical Tutor
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Chrome Mox
3x Duress

SB
---
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill Gotten Gains
1x Tendril's of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Hurkly's Recall
2x Pyroblast
2x Shattering Spree
1x Deathmark
3x Xantid Swarm

As you can see it's Bryant's deck (thanks) save the Orim/Silence split and the sideboard. I expected lots of Merfolk and such, hence the Swarms + Blasts.

Round 1: White Stax (Dutch Stax?)
Game 1: He win's the die roll. He play's a plains, and then I go off with a combination of dark rituals and infernal/led into ad nauseum which seals it.

Luckily although I've only seen a plains, he is my friend and knows the deck which I am playing, and tells me beforehand he has chalices in his deck which mean certain death for me, so I can guess what he's playing. I board in -2 silence; +1 Shattering Spree; +1 Hurkyl's Recall.

Game 2: He get's a first turn trinisphere down, which I'm prepared to play around. We pass and go for a turn, he beats me with a factory if I remember correctly, and then he waste's my only land. I think great... but I can still recover. Unfortunately the next turn he is able to cast a Crucible of Worlds, and I then give up.

Game 3: I play, keep a decent hand, but not a first turn win, because I have Hurkly's Recall. I think I Ponder or Brainstorm first turn, he goes and play's Chalice for 0. Then he proceeds to play Trinisphere, Crucible, etc. Meanwhile I'm stuck at 1 land, doing nothing. I eventually draw into a second, but he has a Magus of the Tabernacle (stopping any plan I had of casting some goblin tokens) and is beating for 2 a turn. Finally I get a third land, and wait a few more turns to sculpt the hand I need, eot him with Hurkly's Recall, being at 9 life. Then proceed to Ad Nauseum for the win. This game seriously took like 15 turns+.

Round 2: Ichorid/Dredge

Game 1: We each know what the other is playing as we were sitting close last round, and both making comments about how screwed I was. I even asked him what decks were good against his, as I'm very new to the legacy seen (haven't played magic in years), and he told me mine was. I go into the round not really assuming better than 50/50 odds... He's a nice guy (as everyone was really) and so I ask him what turn his deck usually wins, and he says by turn 3 is normal, so I'm a bit scared.

He wins the die roll, and proceeds to play a putrid imp. I play a land, brainstorm or ponder and pass. He proceeds to discard eot, then dredge some stuff, blah blah, breakthrough I think, and finally attack with a threshed imp. I'm at 17 I think (COB?). I ask him if he's going to win next turn, and he says probably, and I then cast a turn two ad nauseum, and he remarks he knew I was faster. I tell him I don't usually win that fast.

Game 2: Sideboard out -2 Silence; -1 Ill Gotten Gains; +2 Pyroblast; +1 Infernal Tutor. I'm still new to the deck, and as you can see have no idea what to side out ever really... advice in general? :)

He goes, imps. I go, land pass. He plays another imp, discards, dredges, I see Iona in his yard which I think he sided in. I go down to around 16 life, and proceed to win again with the Ill Gotten Gains minicombo (I think, or maybe Ad Naus.) Everyone's laughing because they knew it was a good matchup for me even though I was rather skeptical eh.

Wish him goodluck and am off.

Round 3: Artifact/Welder.dec??

Game 1: I have no idea what he's playing, and I'm pretty sure he went first. He play's first and second turn Welder's, has some artifact mana in play, and some red and blue mana. I could have gone off by the second or third turn, but fear FOW or other counterspell. I instead wait, just being attacked by small Welder's down to 14ish. I then use mystical tutor. Get a Silence, then cast it my turn, he says ok, to which I proceed to kill him.

Game 2: I sideboard in -2 Silence; +1 Shattering Spree; +1 Hurkly's Recall. Still not totally sure what he's doing.

He goes, welder + second welder in his 2nd turn. Of course... Play's some careful studies, and thirst for knowledge, and I'm not really on a clock. Then he thoughtsiezes me, take my Ad Nauseum I think, and sees Shattering Spree. At this point he is at 16 from lands/Thoughtseize, and has an artifact land out with Platinum Angel in his yard. I wait a couple of turns and then, finally decide that I will go for Ill Gotten Gains so I can get back Shattering Spree after I have to discard it with LED... little do I remember that I need LED back and thus can't actually use Spree again for I'll need to discard it. Long story short, I play a bunch of things, take Shattering Spree, LED, and Infernal Tutor back with Ill Gotten Gains. I Tendril's for exactly 16 knowing he will Platinum Angel in in response. He does, and is at 0. He attacks with the angel (not welders ever for some reasons), and starts chipping away at my life total, though I'm, somewhere above 30. I get a duress and a volcanic island my next two draws, removing something useless and sitting there essentially only. He gets my down to 18 or 19, and I rip an infernal top deck, cast it, search for Hurkyl's Recall (mvp), and cast it. In response he discards another Angel, but we both think there's no way whichever is in play will not be returned to hand, so he loses at -3 or -4. (Is there a way to succeed for him here?).

The top two at this point are me and a kid playing Painter's Servant. He is nice, and we talked a little before randomly, he's 18 but looks really young, and asks to draw. We split top 2, get prizes etc. and then play for fun. I lose 2-0. Glad we split :p. :).

Anyway, I'll try to clean things up in future reports, hope someone can use this :p (Usually there's loads of blue countertop/merfolk/thresh decks here (Madrid) and quite some zoo/burn, dunno why I fought none.)

Best luck! And thanks to Bryant for making/testing the deck! Loaads of fun and let me know if you're coming to Madrid!

Bryant Cook

12-08-2009, 10:33 PM

Best luck! And thanks to Bryant for making/testing the deck! Loaads of fun and let me know if you're coming to Madrid!

I will not, it's too far from New York.

BackDr0p

12-08-2009, 11:02 PM

You better be coming to Columbus.

Ozymandias

12-21-2009, 07:37 PM

Bryant Cook

12-21-2009, 09:12 PM

So I've been tooling around with this deck as a possible alternative to my typical Dredge-running, and a I had a few questions.

1) I take it the situations where your only action is IT and you have 4 mana post-IT, and/or you can't get up to 9 storm easily. do not come up enough to warrant a maindeck Empty the Warrens?

2) Can this deck beat an Ethersworn Canonist alongside Gaddock Teeg without Pyroclasm? The only out I see is either a pair of Burning Wishes for Deathmark on Canonist and then for Teeg, or Bwish for one grapeshot and then three artifacts running before you kill them both, but both of these options require time you don't have. Should you just try to win before it's an issue?

3) IT, LED, LED into IGG into IT into Tendrils only gives you 8 pre-Tendrils spells. I guess that the situation where you don't have a pre-IT spell is uncommon enough to ignore having a second IT?

1.) Empty the Warrens is easily answered nowadays and often doesn't get the job done against Merfolk, Elves, and Zoo. Popular decks right now.

2.) Why would you allow both to happen? I'm currently running 1x Chain of Vapor, 1x Echoing Truth, 2x Deathmark, and 1x Grapeshot sideboard. If these aren't enough answers, I'd recommend something else.

3.) There's three infernal tutors, grab another then Tendrils, or grab Burning Wish for the same effect.

Bryant Cook

01-03-2010, 03:31 PM

Report. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=414917#post414917)

georgjorge

01-03-2010, 04:18 PM

Good report, as always. However, those two don't really mix well:

I'm not afraid of Tempo Thresh at all. They have 4 relevant cards in their maindeck.

Top 8: Canadian Threshold

Game One: I keep a hand of 3x LED, Ritual, Land Infernal Tutor. Resolves.

Sideboarding: -2 Mystical, +2 Pyroblast.

Game Two: I have a turn one Duress, see a bunch of Spell Snares/Pierces. I play Xantid Turn 2. Kid rips a bolt leaving me with 2x Rituals, Tutor, and LED. I'm forced to wait for Protection, it never comes.

Game Three: It's a long back and forth game, Nick eventually pulls out the win after taking 30 mins on deciding what to pitch to Force of Will.

(I know, lucky opponent, didn't draw much, whatever. I just wish people on here wouldn't like hyperboles so much).

Bryant Cook

01-03-2010, 04:41 PM

Good report, as always. However, those two don't really mix well:

(I know, lucky opponent, didn't draw much, whatever. I just wish people on here wouldn't like hyperboles so much).

That was the first time I've lost to Canadian Threshold in awhile. Dig through reports if you don't believe me. I'm still not worried.

Pelikanudo

01-03-2010, 05:01 PM

Bryant , assuming you have 4 orims 3 duress 2 m.tutor and in side 3 pyroblast ,how do you exactly side?
I saw at the first of the thread the plan was :
-1 ponder
-1 B.Storm
-1 Mox
-1 IGG.
=
+ 3pyro
+1 K.Grip

and you sided vs the C.3shold like:
-2M.Tutor
=
+2 pyro

Well my question is how to exactly side vs C.shold?

Thanks.

Bryant Cook

01-03-2010, 05:15 PM

Jim Higginbottom

01-03-2010, 11:14 PM

If you felt like you needed hurkyl's recall in the side what would get the cut? (I play against more stax than most.)

Bryant Cook

01-04-2010, 12:52 AM

Since Chain of Vapor is my metagame for Reanimator slot, that.

Jim Higginbottom

01-04-2010, 09:56 AM

your new list looks like a steaming pile but i sleeved it up and the xantid swarms main are amazing.

Piceli89

01-04-2010, 11:01 AM

Bryant Cook

01-04-2010, 01:17 PM

The Swarms are quite interesting, since they are a recurring Chant that can also provide some block against Aggro.
One question: when you decided to add them, against which MUs they were mant to be in ? Because Tempo Threshold can easily destroy them since g1 with burn spells, and I also think that Countertop or Landstill won't have a difficult time finding the Plow for them. I know they're good and stuff, but you turn dead cards into useful ones.
I mean, were they in the MD for Merfolk only? Explain us this choice.

Well you kind of explained them yourself, did you not? They don't cost a mana on the combo turn, they're incredible vs Tempo Threshold (Especially when most players board out burn.), Reanimator (HUGE here), and Merfolk. CB and Landstill play 4 answers for 2 cards in your deck. Cool, if they draw one, they still have to work around Chant/Duress/Blast.

Not to mention if opponents don't see them game one they'll board out removal.

Piceli89

01-04-2010, 02:01 PM

Brad Herbig

01-04-2010, 02:02 PM

Well you kind of explained them yourself, did you not? They don't cost a mana on the combo turn, they're incredible vs Tempo Threshold (Especially when most players board out burn.), Reanimator (HUGE here), and Merfolk. CB and Landstill play 4 answers for 2 cards in your deck. Cool, if they draw one, they still have to work around Chant/Duress/Blast.

Not to mention if opponents don't see them game one they'll board out removal.

Your arguments seem to suggest that they would actually be better in the sideboard than the mainboard for most matchups. Of course they are good against Merfolk and I guess Reanimator, but against Tempo Thresh, they seem pretty bad, due to the 8 maindeck answers post-resolution of Xantid. Which is more than the 4 answers they have for Chant. Also, Counterbalance has, well, Counterbalance to answer your Xantid by being able to counter your stuff anyway. And this is all assuming you play Xantid on turn 1 on the play and it resolves.

I think Xantid is better suited for the board overall, particularly because they board out their removal against you most of the time. You are also making your opponents guess how to board to play around either a creature or spells like pyroblast, depending on how they think you will board.

If there is as much Reanimator in your meta as you say, I could see having xantid main as a good choice, but I don't think it is the best choice for TES in an overall metagame.

Bryant Cook

01-04-2010, 02:10 PM

As stated in the report in which you both read. I wanted to play both Pyroblast and Xantid, however, there isn't enough room. This was the option in my eyes, and it worked out well.

If you don't like it, don't play it. However, I'll continue to play it.

tgDC$

01-04-2010, 07:11 PM

I went to the starcity 5k in LA yesterday needing to win the last round to top16. Sadly I was paired against Eva Green and lost games 2 and 3 to a thousand thoughtseizes and hymns. I think about 150 players total showed up and I ended up 28th. My matchups were the following:

Round 1 vs UW Tempo (he ended up taking third place) loss
Round 2 vs DoomsdayANT Hybrid win
Round 3 vs ThreshThreshThresh win
Round 4 vs Merfolk loss
Round 5 vs UB Tempo Faeries win
Round 6 vs Goblins win
Round 7 vs Red Burn win
Round 8 vs Eva Green loss

The deck played great for me, and the couple losses I had were due to pretty significant mistakes so the deck definitely is powerful. I had swarms in the board because I expected alot of merfolk but I feel that if I had a couple in the board like Bryant did for his last event, it woulda helped alot cuz I too was also missing those red blasts in the board.

Bryant Cook

01-05-2010, 04:00 PM

In a metagame like that it looks like my protection package would be great. You should try it.

Although, the Eva green matchup isn't actually that bad. I've never had too many problems with it.

tgDC$

01-05-2010, 09:18 PM

The match against Eva Green was probably more due to our draws cuz game 1 im on the draw and he had no first turn play, so i proceeded to Igg loop turn 2 ftw. Game 2 had him ritual turn 1 into thoughtseize hymn, into follow up hymn turn 2 plus a 5 powered goyf. My draw was decent but i needed sometime to setup. Game 3 saw him double duress turn 1, into hymn turn 2 followed by hypie. Needless to say i rarely had over 3 cards in my hand at a time.

Jim Higginbottom

01-06-2010, 09:29 AM

Eva green is only really a problem if they hymn to tourarch and hit something. Most people who play it are terrible players and in my experience almost always take the wrong spell with duress/thoughtseize.

Jim Higginbottom

01-07-2010, 10:17 AM

Has anyone here tested carpet of flowers?

BreathWeapon

01-07-2010, 11:20 AM

Has anyone here tested carpet of flowers?

I did when I was testing Tinder Wall, the problem is that it's never better than a Dark Ritual if your opponent plays his lands judiciously and there's a delay on the acceleration. Against Control, it's stupid good, but against aggro-control I usually just wanted Tinder Wall or another piece of acceleration.

Pelikanudo

01-08-2010, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Well, I think I'm definately going to bring TES to the GP so I'd like you to help me to prepare the deck with me in order to agree both you and me in :
a) the base
b) the side
c) how to exatly side vs the meta in the GP

Well I'll expose the list, the side and the ways to side vs the different decks in the meta:

The list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Orim’s Chant
2 Duress
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Silence

The side:

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:2 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Krosan Grip
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Shattering Spree
SB:1 Deathmark
SB:1 Hurkil's recall

Well the 2 mainly decks I want to handle are Canadian 3shold and Merfolks.

VS Canadian I'm planning this:
-2 M.Tutor
-1 IGG
-1 Brainstorm
=
+3 pyroblasts
+1 E.T.W.

the idea around C.T is supposing the do not have response vs ETW bring 1 more from side to make it easier to cast.
But I'm not sure about the cards to take out.

I expect the bring both REB, BEB, spell pierces.

Vs Counterbalance:

+3 Pyroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
=
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox

thinking in bring here too the ETW if I suspect they don't have anything to stop it.

vs merfolks:
+3 Pyroblast
=
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ponder

vs Landstill:
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Krosan Grip
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox

vs chalice/trinis effects:

help me in here, could you explain me why is better spree than hurkils, the issue I find is that with spree you have to wait 1 turn untill you agin untap in the next phase once you played spree, hurkils not ,please explain.

vs Icho

I need help here

vs reanimator:
I need help here

Please correct me about anithing you see wrong, in order to get a clear idea about which to bring to the GP and how to side.Thanks

SuperBean

01-09-2010, 07:16 AM

I had an opportunity to play Legacy recently and I won my local shop's Legacy event. I ended up playing against Natural Order Threshold, Mono-U Control, and GBU Control. I went 3-0 against all my opponents and drew with Dredge in the fourth round. In the Top-4 I played against Goblins and won, then proceeded to split the prize with Dredge :smile:

I managed to do it with this crap heap:

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
3x Mystical Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Orim's Chant
1x Ad Nauseam

Sorceries:
4x Burning Wish
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Ponder
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
2x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea
2x Gemstone Mine
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland

Sideboard:
2x Vexing Shusher
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Krosan Grip
1x Thoughtseize
1x Echoing Truth
1x Reverent Silence
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou

Pulp_Fiction

01-11-2010, 05:36 AM

How is that a crap heap at all? I really like that list, I am currently testing something very similar and am quite impressed with it. 12+ lands really helps mulligans and I truly hate 4x Chrome Mox in any deck that isn't Belcher or SI. I like the 2x CRits in the build but SSG is really the way to go in those slots! Avoids Spell Snare and helps fight Daze as well as speeds the deck up and acts as an additional IMS during AdN reveals!

Gocho

01-11-2010, 07:08 AM

Could you post your testing list?

JonBarber

01-11-2010, 01:09 PM

Bryant, do you plan to make a report from last saturday's Vestal tourny? I know you didn't top, but it'd be insightful to hear what worked and what didn't.

Pulp_Fiction

01-11-2010, 07:05 PM

Could you post your testing list?

This is what I am currently messing around with. The list is constantly being tweaked since you encounter all kinds of interesting situations when your opponent is actually doing stuff rather than just goldfishing. Here is what I am currently playing:

4x Duress
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Mystical Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x IGG
1x AdN
1x Tendrils

4x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea

Sideboard

4x Empty the Warrens
2x Shattering Spree
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x Tendrils
1x Grapeshot
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Slaughter Pact

I really like how this plays. It sacrifices no speed and gets a little more consistent, especially in the mana department. Not sure how much I like not playing Chant, but I really like being able to play Duress the turn before I combo off so I know what I am up against then have that extra B on the combo turn, assuming all is safe. The SB plan is to bring in EtW and explode in their face. I don't like the Pyroblast plan at all so I just say fuck Counterbalance and focus on speed. You still maintain the good Landstill matchups and a fairly similar CB matchup. I am not saying this list is refined or anything but, everytime I sleeve up TES I usually take it apart 40 mins later after I have some insane consistency issues, this list has been together for quite a while!

Piceli89

01-11-2010, 07:11 PM

I am not saying this list is refined or anything but, everytime I sleeve up TES I usually take it apart 40 mins later after I have some insane consistency issues, this list has been together for quite a while!

Lol, it also happened to me at least 3 times :laugh:
But, about the list, the question is: since you're losing some of the speed, why just not play a more solid deck (all the lands are fetches or duals+basics) like NLS or straight UBr ANT w/ Burning Wish? Rainbow lands are there exclusively to support 4 colours; once you give up on these, 3 colours are easily manageable with traditional configurations.

Pulp_Fiction

01-11-2010, 11:49 PM

Lol, it also happened to me at least 3 times :laugh:
But, about the list, the question is: since you're losing some of the speed, why just not play a more solid deck (all the lands are fetches or duals+basics) like NLS or straight UBr ANT w/ Burning Wish? Rainbow lands are there exclusively to support 4 colours; once you give up on these, 3 colours are easily manageable with traditional configurations.

I am really just trying to find a good balance between speed and consistency. NLS is not really my kind of deck and BW ANT is just ... garbage for the most part, it is one of those compromise decks that tries to do too much and ends up being just marginally decent at everything.

The reason for the gold lands is that I have been stuck on 1 mana quite often and the gold lands will add all three colors if needed. In goldfishing you are correct, gold lands aren't needed, but in practice against opponents who run Sinkholes and Wastelands, having a land that adds all colors infinitely helps out the consistency. The problem with TES is that it so often loses to itself, which is the bad side of the tradeoff for total speed. I am trying to find a build that is consistent enough without Sensei's Divining Top, but contains the raw explosiveness that the ANT Hybrids don't have. Cause all these decks are fast, and I always side with the consistent combo decks (why I started playing DDFF) over the fast (quit playing Belcher due to the randomness). I think this list is a very good compromise between the two.

tgDC$

01-12-2010, 12:29 AM

This is what I am currently messing around with. The list is constantly being tweaked since you encounter all kinds of interesting situations when your opponent is actually doing stuff rather than just goldfishing. Here is what I am currently playing:

4x Duress
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Mystical Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x IGG
1x AdN
1x Tendrils

4x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea

Sideboard

4x Empty the Warrens
2x Shattering Spree
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x Tendrils
1x Grapeshot
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Slaughter Pact

I really like how this plays. It sacrifices no speed and gets a little more consistent, especially in the mana department. Not sure how much I like not playing Chant, but I really like being able to play Duress the turn before I combo off so I know what I am up against then have that extra B on the combo turn, assuming all is safe. The SB plan is to bring in EtW and explode in their face. I don't like the Pyroblast plan at all so I just say fuck Counterbalance and focus on speed. You still maintain the good Landstill matchups and a fairly similar CB matchup. I am not saying this list is refined or anything but, everytime I sleeve up TES I usually take it apart 40 mins later after I have some insane consistency issues, this list has been together for quite a while!

Just wanna say i have mad respect for both yours and bryant's builds and arguments for which kind of storm deck to play. It was because of you and bryant that i started playing combo (im back and forth with ddant hybrid and tes right now) and i love every game i sleeve it up for.

@pulpfiction- with your lack of chants, the one thing i dislike about not running chants is not being able to IGG loop safely thru permission. 4 duress definitely does help figure what plan theyre working with, but if u see random counters, ur kinda forced to go for ad nauseam right?

SuperBean

01-12-2010, 02:21 AM

I'm glad you like my list. :smile:

I've tried the Simian Spirit Guide path and it just doesn't fit the speed of the deck at all. Cabal Ritual has tested to be way for valuable.

BreathWeapon

01-12-2010, 03:54 AM

I'm glad you like my list. :smile:

I've tried the Simian Spirit Guide path and it just doesn't fit the speed of the deck at all. Cabal Ritual has tested to be way for valuable.

Care to explain, because SSG is the best accelerant I've ran in that slot and Cabal Ritual was the worst, I've also found SSGs are invaluable as 0cc mana sources - I've ran 4x SSG and 3x Chrome Mox for sometime now

JonBarber

01-12-2010, 08:11 AM

This is what I am currently messing around with. The list is constantly being tweaked since you encounter all kinds of interesting situations when your opponent is actually doing stuff rather than just goldfishing. Here is what I am currently playing:

4x Duress
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Mystical Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x IGG
1x AdN
1x Tendrils

4x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea

Sideboard

4x Empty the Warrens
2x Shattering Spree
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Thoughtseize
1x Tendrils
1x Grapeshot
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Slaughter Pact

I really like how this plays. It sacrifices no speed and gets a little more consistent, especially in the mana department. Not sure how much I like not playing Chant, but I really like being able to play Duress the turn before I combo off so I know what I am up against then have that extra B on the combo turn, assuming all is safe. The SB plan is to bring in EtW and explode in their face. I don't like the Pyroblast plan at all so I just say fuck Counterbalance and focus on speed. You still maintain the good Landstill matchups and a fairly similar CB matchup. I am not saying this list is refined or anything but, everytime I sleeve up TES I usually take it apart 40 mins later after I have some insane consistency issues, this list has been together for quite a while!

Idk, I'm personally a really big fan of the maindeck chants. Even if they are not running counterspells, you can chant at the beginning of their upkeep to gain an extra turn against them, which is extremely helpful if your just waiting for one more mana.

Pulp_Fiction

01-12-2010, 06:19 PM

@tgDC$: Thanks man, I appreciate that! The reason for no Chants is I am trying to support the Empty the Warrens in the SB. Playing discard effects allows you to strip EE and Pyroclasm effects out of the control players hands before you go nuts. I have played this strategy before with the older SI builds and I quite like relying on speed rather than trying to mull into a blast to take care of CB. I am just trying a new approach, but I totally agree about the IGG loop. With the new SB plan you actually board out IGG and bring in 3 of the 4 EtW from the side. Not sure how this is going to pan out, but I am going to play this list on wednesday at my local cardshop.

@Super Bean: CR is better? I originally ran 1x CR as a MT target but, SSG is so much better in the deck. It adds that much needed R for free, CR adds the same amount of mana as SSG but you first have to tap 2 lands or play a DR first. Sure it adds +1 storm but, SSG does a whole lot more for the speed of the deck.

Jim Higginbottom

01-16-2010, 11:59 PM

Took 9th at TOGIT today, I got to draw off a standstill though!

Pelikanudo

01-18-2010, 04:17 PM

Bryant, do you plan to make a report from last saturday's Vestal tourny? I know you didn't top, but it'd be insightful to hear what worked and what didn't.

oRen

01-19-2010, 09:54 AM

@ pulp fiction: could you explain why you started to use fetchlands in your build ?
thanks a lot.

VsTheWorld

01-19-2010, 12:05 PM

I can't speak for Pulp_Fiction, but in the last list I tested, I played 2 fetches mostly for the ability to shuffle after a Brainstorm and to diminish the effectiveness of Wasteland in decks not packing Stifle. At the same time, since TES is already tight on lands, getting blown out by a Stifled fetch is something you really want to prevent. Three fetches opens up that possibility a little bit too much for my liking, but I have no testing to back that up, so perhaps Pulp_Fiction can explain his reasoning better.

Doomsday

01-19-2010, 01:23 PM

Hey guys, I was wondering if those more experienced with the deck could offer and sideboarding advice for the build below (or one similar to it)? I'm new to the format and am looking for pointers on sideboarding vs the major archetypes in general, and how to do it with this deck without really diluting it's strengths. Thanks!

Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Artifacts
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Brainstorm
2 Mystical Tutor
2 Orim's Chant
1 Silence
1 Ad Nauseam

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Ponder
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Duress
3 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
2 Shattering Spree
1 Hurkyl's Recall

EDIT: I do see the matchup analysis in the second post, but wasn't sure how old the decklists and card choices used for that post are. If that's still the best tool to use, please let me know.

Pulp_Fiction

01-19-2010, 02:36 PM

@oRen and VsTheWorld: The reason for fetchlands is for their effectiveness with Brainstorm. Brainstorm, then fetch, shuffling away shit. Yes, it does open you up to Stifle but ... not really that much. It is also a great deterrent against Wastelands and gives you the ability to have 2 lands in play at the same time in the face of a Wasteland by just dropping a fetch into play and not using it then playing another land from your hand. The reasoning behind playing so many lands is I like the consistency it adds to the deck and I don't have to run 4x Chrome Mox (which I hate as a 4-of). Upping the land count to 13 has made a huge difference! The list has changed a little, I slowly learned how fucking awful Thoughtseize is ... basically all the time so here is a new revised version:

4x Duress
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Orim's Chant
1x IGG
1x AdN
1x Tendrils

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea

Sideboard

4x Empty the Warrens
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Ancient Grudge

Another bonus to playing more lands is you get to consistently cast awesomeness like Ancient Grudge on a regular basis! I couldn't play without Chant so I added 1 to the main and removed Thoughtseize completely but upped it to 8x gold lands to be able to cast the 1x Chant, 2x Swarm, and flashback the Ancient Grudge. And not playing 4x Mysticals just seems wrong, but I play DDFT and ANT Hybrids so ... I just like them. I understand the logic of only running 2x, it fundamentally turns the deck into a turn 2 deck anyway, well, Ponder usually does that as well so ... I would rather be turn 2 consistent than turn 1 fast. That is why I always take TES apart after a while, I have serious consistency issues but with this list, its has been really good!

Piceli89

01-19-2010, 02:55 PM

Pulp, I think your list can afford -and should-play a second Chant. Using almost only Duresses won't do the job against aggro-control, considering that TES relies heavily on the 2cc tutors+LED chains, way more than how ANT does.This opens you up to a great vulnerability against Spell Snare, and you know better than me how it's sad to lose to spell snare after havng gone all-in because your Duress could take either it or FoW. Plus, TES can't do SDT shenanigans after having craked LED, so if you fail, it's basically over.
Long time ago i designed a fetchland-with version of TES which tried to gain more consistency while not losing too much speed. It ended up being pretty good, but having the usual problem of opening 4-colour hands or something very similar.Still, here's the list:

4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [U] Underground Sea
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [A] Badlands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [8E] City of Brass

// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [US] Duress
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [M10] Silence

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth

As you can see,I play 13 lands like you, with the difference that 4 fetches are to me the minimum quantity to support a deent Branstorm+Fetchland interaction. There's also 1 more Chant, but perhaps you can go without it adding a Mystical tutor to balance the loss.
The sideboard is quite different, I would like to try to fit 3 Xantid Swarm in it but re-adding more rainbow lands would basically lead to come back to more TESesque versions, with the consequent loss of consistency. And Pyroblast, though not being Chants, are damnly good, too.

JeroenC

01-19-2010, 05:12 PM

As long as we're all posting lists:
// Lands
4 [5E] City of Brass
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
1 [M10] Silence
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
2 [6E] Mystical Tutor
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [7E] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast

I want to drop
-1 C Mox for another Rainbow land. But which is the next best one (I already dropped a fetch for the second U Sea, so fetch is not an option atm).
-2 Chant effects for additional discard. What other B card is good discard without a life cost? In the past I would've said Cabal Therapy, but I don't like it as much since Spell Pierce.

Pulp_Fiction

01-21-2010, 01:49 AM

Alright, I took TES to my local tournament tonight and made it to a top 4 split out of 22 people. I got very easy matchups but the list was very consistent, never fizzled on AdN, and won through some very weird scenarios. Here is the list I played and a very short summary of what happened:

4x Duress
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Ponder
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Orim's Chant
1x IGG
1x AdN
1x Tendrils

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea

Sideboard

4x Empty the Warrens
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Shattering Spree
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Ancient Grudge

Round 1 - LED Dredge
g1: IGG, 2x LEDs, Dark Rit and Burning Wish end it on turn 2 or 3.
g2: I keep an amazing opener and win VIA IGG loop again on turn 2 after a Mystical Tutor.

Round 2 - Eternal Garden
g1: He scoops after I fetch a land, lol, we know eachother and he had already conceded but we were screwing around.
g2: I mull and get locked out of the game with Wastelands but end up winning after a BW for IT, then IT revealing LED, then LED, LED, Burning Wish # 2. For what its worth he was at 26 life when I won.

Round 3 - Eternal Garden (ChokeSeemsGood)
g1: He is playing the super secret tech and casts a turn 2 and 3 Extract on me after double Burning Wish for Extract and Regrowth on it! I lose IGG and Tendrils but shape a good hand and IT into BW for IGG then reclaim everything and Tendrils for 24 (had a second BW in hand).
g2: One of the most epic games I have ever played, I would type it up but it would be long as fuck, so here is the cliff notes version. I mull to 6 and keep a marginal hand. I get double Extracted again and win with 14 Goblin tokens after he has depleted his resources and doesn't have an active Loam!

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - Eternal Garden (ChokeSeemsGood) yet again!
g1: I keep an opener of: Land, Mystical, AdN, Petal, Dark Ritual and the rest is irrelevent. Turn 2 double Rit into AdN ends it.
g2: Opening hand of: Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, land, land, Mystical, Ponder, Brainstorm. He plays land, Exploration, Maze of Ith, go. I draw something irrelevant and play land go. He plays Burning Wish for Extract, go. EOT Mystical for AdN seals it and I am in the top 4 where we decide to split the store credit.

These are not hard matchups, and I felt terrible I had to play my buddy twice. But, this tournament taught me how resilient this deck is to Wasteland and how consistent the list is. In retrospect, a split of 3x Silence 2x Duress in the main would probably be best, with Blasts and Swarm in the SB. I am not sure I like the idea of the EtW plan, which is the only reason I run 4x Duress over Chants. Maybe playing 3x Blast and 2x Swarm in the board would suit this particular 75x cards better. Thoughts?

JeroenC

01-23-2010, 10:18 AM

The list I'm taking to the last possible GPT I can go to, tomorrow. (For Madrid, obv):

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Forbidden Orchard
3 Chrome Mox
2 Simian Spirit Guide

2 Orim's Chant
1 Silence
4 Duress

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains

SB:
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns (even though I hate this card)
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
1 Echoing Truth

The fourth REB might become an additional Chant, but I feel like REB is the best choice. Any comments?

Bryant Cook

01-23-2010, 11:18 AM

That 4th Duress really should be a Chant in the maindeck.

Also, c'mon guys, all of these lists are getting ridiculous.

Pulp_Fiction

01-23-2010, 02:57 PM

That 4th Duress really should be a Chant in the maindeck.

Also, c'mon guys, all of these lists are getting ridiculous.

Ridiculous because? It isn't the type of list you would play? I'm not being an ass, whats wrong with making TES more consistent?

Bryant Cook

01-23-2010, 03:00 PM

Ridiculous because? It isn't the type of list you would play? I'm not being an ass, whats wrong with making TES more consistent?

I didn't mean lists as cards being played. I mean last page is 70% everyone's decklists. It's possible to have intelligent discussion without 5,000 lists.

Pulp_Fiction

01-24-2010, 03:19 AM

I didn't mean lists as cards being played. I mean last page is 70% everyone's decklists. It's possible to have intelligent discussion without 5,000 lists.

kk, agreed. As with a lot of combo threads, people like to blatantly ignore others comments then post their own list and ask for comments disregarding anything that has been said.

Regarding the blast plan. Do you guys really find it to be that effective against CB?? I always found blasts to just be incredibly random and on occassion they work well, but most of the time it sits in my hand and I draw into LEDs.

badjuju

01-24-2010, 03:40 AM

kk, agreed. As with a lot of combo threads, people like to blatantly ignore others comments then post their own list and ask for comments disregarding anything that has been said.

Regarding the blast plan. Do you guys really find it to be that effective against CB?? I always found blasts to just be incredibly random and on occassion they work well, but most of the time it sits in my hand and I draw into LEDs.

Blasts have been pretty awful in all of my storm testing. They're never there when I want them to be and are only truly effective before your opponent gets his engine online. Anytime after that, it's pretty much dead - Krosan Grip has been the only reliable out, as annoying as it is to run.

Bryant Cook

01-24-2010, 11:12 AM

Blasts have been pretty awful in all of my storm testing. They're never there when I want them to be and are only truly effective before your opponent gets his engine online. Anytime after that, it's pretty much dead - Krosan Grip has been the only reliable out, as annoying as it is to run.

I don't think I'd run two grips. However, I could see dropping the two blasts for a Wipeaway (Same function and deals with Gaddeck Teeg) and some other card. I just don't know what other card yet.

Jim Higginbottom

01-24-2010, 11:26 AM

being able to counter an early counterbalance is really really good. i guess in that case the wipe away does the same thing...but some of the supreme blue lists have eight or nine 3 costs and could randomly counter it game 1. (2 trygon predator, 3 firespout, 3-4 rhox war monk).

i also really like pyroblast against ichorid...countering a breakthrough or careful study besides shocking the shit out of my opponent has won me quite a few games.

Piceli89

01-24-2010, 02:52 PM

kk, agreed. As with a lot of combo threads, people like to blatantly ignore others comments then post their own list and ask for comments disregarding anything that has been said.

That's what you did to be honest. I made comments on your list about the possibility of including more chants showing mine as a sort of "how would it be with my suggestions", and your post after was your list you brought to a tourney without any feedback for my lines.
I'd like to know if you didn't appreciate my suggestions, so that we can build a more consistent TES.

Pulp_Fiction

01-24-2010, 03:59 PM

That's what you did to be honest. I made comments on your list about the possibility of including more chants showing mine as a sort of "how would it be with my suggestions", and your post after was your list you brought to a tourney without any feedback for my lines.
I'd like to know if you didn't appreciate my suggestions, so that we can build a more consistent TES.

That was a tournament report, those are exceptions :) j/k
I have been messing around with numerous Chants and people in my meta have actually been running Divert ..... also, I have decided to totally cut the EtW plan in the board, which was the only reason I was playing 4x Duress main anyway. I was thinking something like: 2x Silence, 1x Chant, 2x Duress in the main as protection spells.

@Bryant: If you just cut 2x SSGs from the main you can play Grips in the board without any effect on AdN reveals. And with 4x Chrome Mox + cantrips + 11 lands I would assume that you could regularly cast them.

@lebron jim: The problem is that they have to be in your hand. You can't Mystical in response to a CB and get a Blast, well, I suppose you could, but the likelihood of killing the CB with a blast is highly unlikely. It can happen yes, but the odds are really not in your favor. And in the Dredge matchup, all you have to do is Chant-walk them, they have literally nothing they can do and we are faster and more consistent in early kills. Blast just seems sup-par as a SB card as it is really only good in your starting hand.

Here is something that I have been wondering about; in general, what are the absolute necessities of the wishboard in today's meta. I was thinking:
1x D Returns
1x IGG
1x Tendrils
1x Infernal Tutor
1x EtW
1x disenchant/bounce/protection spell slot

Does anyone agree with this. Now I understand that a lot of you may encounter Reanimator on a regular basis and thus Deathmark is also necessary. But stripped down to the bare minimum, does this look like only the essential wish targets?

BreathWeapon

01-24-2010, 04:10 PM

I doubt IT qualifies as essential, past Tendrils of Agony, Empty the Warrens, Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns, I'd say Grape Shot and then removal cards of choice.

tgDC$

01-25-2010, 06:08 AM

just got back from a decent sized legacy tournament in Los Angeles (about 50 or so ppl) and top8d with card for card cook's list. ill put up a report as soon as i wake up

Bryant Cook

01-25-2010, 04:21 PM

just got back from a decent sized legacy tournament in Los Angeles (about 50 or so ppl) and top8d with card for card cook's list. ill put up a report as soon as i wake up

I'd like to read this.

I'm currently working on my sideboard. I'm returning to Wipeaway over the blast plan. 2 Blasts are just weak.

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:1 Infernal Tutor
SB:1 Chain of Vapor
SB:1 Echoing Truth
SB:1 Wipeaway
SB:1 Krosan Grip
SB:2 Shattering Spree
SB:2 Deathmark
SB:1 ? Cleanfall/Orim's Chant/Infernal Contract/Duress/Empty the Warrens/ Doomsday (not a joke)/ Hurkyl's (Not really, I hate this card)/ Xantid ??????/ Help me.

I totally found a Jap Foil Slithermuse in a dollar box and am craving to play it!

jimirynk

01-26-2010, 01:02 AM

i totally found a jap foil slithermuse in a dollar box and am craving to play it!

edh.

tgDC$

01-26-2010, 01:28 AM

Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16286-Storming-to-Top-8-LA-Knight-Ware-for-Duals)

Pulp_Fiction

01-26-2010, 09:13 PM

@tgDC$: Congrats man, but I noticed a few things in your report. There are numerous games where you could have won with IGG instead of AdN. You went double LED IT into AdN when you have a guarnteed win with IGG. Just something to remember, only use AdN when you have too, and make that judgment from your opening hand and what you are playing against. I also saw a game or 2 where you had open mana, DRit, IT, LED and Petal and still went for AdN. AdN is a powerful card but is random in nature and can fizzle, just be weary of using it when you have other options available.

@Bryant: I would run a Cleanfall if you are going into an unfamiliar environment, but when playing in metas you know I would cut either a Shattering Spree or Deathmark and play 2x Xantid Swarm. I am so satisfied with the Swarm, since unlike Shusher he just says "answer me or lose". Playing 1 Swarm just seems pointless, but 2-3 is always good since you don't even have to draw Swarm for it to be effective.

Do you think Grapeshot is worth playing anymore? Ever since the new rules fucked the Wishes over I haven't played Grapeshot. I only really ran it because you can genuinely get a storm count of 19-20 fairly easily when you can keep wishing for IGG and I liked having it as a backup kill source. I like it to remove the hate bears but I usually find that after I use up my 1 Wish for Grapeshot + a ritual I am down at least another 2 turns trying to reshape my hand. How often do you guys find yourselves actually wishing for it anymore?

Bryant Cook

01-26-2010, 09:40 PM

@Bryant: I would run a Cleanfall if you are going into an unfamiliar environment, but when playing in metas you know I would cut either a Shattering Spree or Deathmark and play 2x Xantid Swarm. I am so satisfied with the Swarm, since unlike Shusher he just says "answer me or lose". Playing 1 Swarm just seems pointless, but 2-3 is always good since you don't even have to draw Swarm for it to be effective. I run 2 Xantid maindeck. I know my protection package looks AWFUL, but it seems to work very well. I may go back to the additional Duress and Chant MD and bring in Swarms since I have additional SB slots.
2 Chant
1 Silence
2 Duress
2 Swarm

Do you think Grapeshot is worth playing anymore? Ever since the new rules fucked the Wishes over I haven't played Grapeshot. I only really ran it because you can genuinely get a storm count of 19-20 fairly easily when you can keep wishing for IGG and I liked having it as a backup kill source. I like it to remove the hate bears but I usually find that after I use up my 1 Wish for Grapeshot + a ritual I am down at least another 2 turns trying to reshape my hand. How often do you guys find yourselves actually wishing for it anymore?

Yes. I use grapeshot all the time, sometimes even when I'm not showboating.

tgDC$

01-27-2010, 12:32 AM

@pulpfiction - Yea, I was waiting until someone would point that out. I guess I got carried away with flipping good off that card all day but definitely there were several times that I could just IGG Loop ftw. As I gain more experience with this deck hopefully my decision making will get better. Thanks for the heads up

Bryant Cook

02-01-2010, 12:49 PM

Since I didn't know what to do with the sideboard I've gone back to the traditional protection package MD of 3/3/1 Chant/Duress/Silence and moved the Xantid Swarms to the SB.

Pulp_Fiction

02-04-2010, 02:18 AM

I made it to a top 4 split at my local tournament tonight with a slightly offsetting list that I have been tweaking for the last few weeks and it performed flawlessly! My matchups were: Zoo (2-0), Mono-Black Discard (2-0), UBgw CB Thresh (2-1), two intentional draws, and Ninja Chant (2-0) in the finals. And this last deck I played in the finals is no joke, it consists of: 4x Meddling Mage, 4x Force, 4x Daze, and 4x Jotun Grunt (does a lot of damage fast and fucks up Rites) and after SB it gets: 1x Mindbreak Trap and 4x Orim's Chant! I currently have a lot of work to do on eBay (my job rocks) but I will update this thread tomorrow with a tournament report!

badjuju

02-04-2010, 02:28 AM

tgDC$

02-04-2010, 01:34 PM

Pulp_Fiction

02-04-2010, 08:51 PM

Here is a tournament report of what happened last night when I played TES at my local tournament. But first, here is the list I played:

4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Ponder
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Chrome Mox
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Duress
1x IGG
1x Simian Spirit Guide
1x AdN
1x Tendrils

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Underground Sea

Sideboard

2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Krosan Grip
1x Wipe Away
1x Duress (boarded in against CB but left out if I expected Mindbreaks from Aggro or something very versatile running 1)
1x Xantid Swarm
1x Slaughter Pact

Wish Targets

1xEmpty the Warrens
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Tendrils
1x Grapeshot
1x Diminishing Returns
1x IGG
1x Eye of Nowhere

Round 1 - Zoo
g1 - EOT Mystical for AdN with Rite, Ritual, and another land in hand. Play Ad Nauseam and draw a lot of cards!
g2 - I get beat up by Kird Ape after 2 Ponders leave me a little dry. Brainstorm reveals Mystical and LED, EOT MT for Infernal and IGG him out on turn 4 with plenty of lifepoints to spare!

Round 2 - Mono-Black Discard
g1- He is on the play and plays no turn 1 discard spell! I play Ponder and it reveals a Mystical. On his turn he taps 2 mana and I expect a Hymn but no, he drops Confidant! During my upkeep I Mystical for IT with: Ritual, LED, LED in hand and IGG out on turn 2.
g2 - Again no turn 1 discard spell and I Duress him on turn 1 and pluck a Hymn! Play a few setup spells and can't find much but Rites and Burning Wish, so on turn 3 I go for EtW and make 14 goblins that easily go the distance.

Round 3 - UBgw CB Thresh guy who has Force in his opening hand 10/10 times he plays me, this is not a joke. By turn 4 he almost always has double Force.
g1 - I mull to 6 and keep an average hand of: Infernal, Brainstorm, Chrome Mox, Tendrils, Simian Spirit Guide, Volcanic Island. He is on the play and goes turn 1 Top. I draw a Duress, Play Ponder which reveals: Petal, LED, Rite. I draw Petal and play a Mox imprinting Tendrils and Duress him. Duress gets Forced and he drops turn 2 CB. I draw and say go. He misses his land drop and is stuck on only Islands so I get creative. On my turn I draw and cast Petal which he lets resolve and I hard cast Simian Spirit Guide! SSG beats him down to 14 life and after 3 fetches and a Force he is at 10! He eventually draws his green source and beats me to death with Goyf after all I can draw is lands and artifacts (not that it mattered at this point). However, I noticed that had I not imprinted Tendrils of Agony I could have won the game! At the end my hand ended up being something like: Rite, LED, LED, LED, Petal, Mox, Infernal. He was at 10 life! Based on the cards in my hand at the beginning of the game, does impringing Tendrils seem like the right call?
g2 - I finally get a beautiful hand against one of these stupid CB decks for a change: land, land, LED, Ritual, IT, Swarm, Duress. I drop Swarm turn 1 on the play and it meets a Force. He plays Top go. Next turn I draw a Lotus Petal and play Duress, it gets Forced yet again, ALRIGHT!!! Play out my entire hand and IT into AdN, draw a lot of cards and Burning Wish into Tendrils!
g3 - He has yet another Force on my turn 1 Duress after playing Top go. He locks me out of the game early and I am in topdeck mode. when I am at 8 life from Goyf beats I finally draw something of relevance, KGrip, I pass the turn. He swings with Goyf and brings me down to 3 and I EOT Grip his Balance. At this point my hand looks like this: LED, Burning Wish, IT, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame and I have 3 lands in play. I draw a Petal and go into the think tank. Since this guy has god draws against me every single time I assume that he has Force. So I play Ritual, Ritual, Rite (individually of course) and they all resolve. With 7 mana floating I test the waters with Burning Wish, amazingly he lets it resolve. Now, I have a safe choice, which is EtW but he could have EE to take care of them OR I can go for Tendrils since he is at 16 life but I am not sure I have enough mana or storm. I do the math and take Tendrils. With BBBBR floating I play Infernal Tutor (going to reveal Lotus Petal) and he quickly Forces it, SWEET, I quickly throw out LED first then another Petal and in response to the Petal he Grips LED (YES, MORE STORM) and I sac the Petal with BBB floating and Tendrils for enough!

Round 4 - ID and I go home for dinner.
Round 5 - ID

Round 6 - Top 8, Ninja Chant
g1 - The main deck tech takes him apart! I win the roll and drop turn 1 Swarm. He looks at me like WTF! Swarm goes the distance and I IGG him out on turn 4 since he can't find StP.
g2 - I keep a hand of: Duress, LED, 2x Burning Wish, Rite, land, land. Turn 1 Duress Reveals 2x Daze and no Force. Turn 2 I draw a Slaughter Pact and pass. I get hit by a Ninja of the Deep Hours again thanks to t1 Mother of Runes and could be in trouble. I draw a Chrome Mox and decide to go for it. LED, Rite, Mox (impringing Wish), Slaughter Pact on his Ninja, Burning Wish, put it on the stack and blow up LED, his Daze helps my storm and I play EtW for 14. Next turn he drops a dude and says go. Pay for Pact and swing! I win the race after he has 4 creatures in play to my 7 at 3 life!

Overall things went very well and the deck was running so smooth! I really like this build. I think it has just the right amount of search and action spells. While it is not as explosive as Bryant's build, it is damn close! Now at first glance it might seem strange to run 1x SSG. At one point I had a list that ran 2x SSG but only 3x Ponder but was just lakcing a little, keeping with consistency and resiliency I wanted 4x MT, 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder so SSG was the final cut at the list you see right now. Just think of SSG as the 4th Chrome Mox that most people hate! The SB was solid, I have basically no matchups that I truly fear aside from Stax! Swarm in the main was sick as hell and caught a lot of people off guard! The 4th in the board was nice as well, playing against CB it was nice having 4x Swarm, 3x Duress, 1x Wipe Away, 1x Grip.

I am not sure if I am sold on Eye of Nowhere BUT it answers EVERYTHING! It fills the role of Deathmark and Shattering Spree in one card. While I do agree that it is a very lackluster substitute, SB space is really tight and I want to run as few wish targets as possible so for now I really like it! The only real change I would make is -1 Chain of Vapor and +1 KGrip to the SB. I really want 3x of those against CB, especially after I board out 2x MTs!

What is everyone's reaction/thoughts to this list and SB? And what would you have imprinted on Chrome Mox after a mull to 6, Tendrils or Infernal based on my opening hand?

kicks_422

02-04-2010, 09:05 PM

Based on the cards in my hand at the beginning of the game, does impringing Tendrils seem like the right call?

On hindsight it cost you the win, but I think that wasn't a wrong play. Playing Duress that early, I assume you were wanting to hit Counterbalance with it. If CB had hit the table with Force back-up since you wouldn't have cast Duress, you wouldn't have been in a more favorable situation anyway.

badjuju

02-04-2010, 10:44 PM

Thanks for the report.

And good riddance, that Nassif Countertop guy has a deck that absolutely loves him.

Bryant Cook

02-04-2010, 10:50 PM

How has Eye of Nowhere been?

BreathWeapon

02-05-2010, 01:16 AM

The problem with 2cc removal, especially at UU, is that you rarely eliminate the threat and go off on the same turn; that seems especially damning for a bounce spell.

Pulp_Fiction

02-05-2010, 03:35 AM

Thanks for the report.

And good riddance, that Nassif Countertop guy has a deck that absolutely loves him.

Its pretty sick, he has some amazing luck with that deck :(

@Bryant: I haven't played Eye of Nowhere yet but I really like it as an answer all. Especially since it answers Iona in game 1 without problems and minimal mana. I always thought Burning Wish into EtW would be how I played against Iona but ... turns out thats not always the case.

In theory BreathWeapon is right, but the whole purpose of Eye of Nowhere is to cut down a reliance on Burning Wish and make the the rest of the SB more effective. By doing this it makes Mystical Tutor even better in almost all matchups except for CB where the card is usually pointless after turn 3. I don't want to dedicate more than 7x cards in the board to wish targets and the essentials take up a lot of room. Bryant also convinced me that Grapeshot is still needed, especially against something like Enchantress when they drop Runed Halo, just go nuts with AdN, use an IGG or 2 and BW into Grapeshot ftw. It is also an out against hate bears which I like, but the idea of using an action spell to remove something like Teeg/MM bothers me because I always assume its my only action spell, but I guess it beats the alternative, which is losing.

I certainly look forward to testing Eye and seeing if it is any good. With 13 lands it isn't too hard to cast, and comboing off the same turn you cast it is a very specific situation. Sometimes the deck gives you what you need, other times you are left wanting, nature of the beast, but more often than not, combo decks just find a way to win. Sometimes you don't get to the 3rd mana to remove 3Sphere and go nuts, its all relative, but I understand that UU is not nearly as effecient as B or R, but those are 2 SB slots as opposed to 1.

Bryant Cook

02-14-2010, 11:14 AM

Pulp_Fiction

02-14-2010, 03:38 PM

I played in the event yesterday at Eli's, I tried Carpet of Flowers in the SB. It was alright, nothing special, the problem with Carpet of Flowers is you're boarding in a ritual. Rituals are not going to make your spells resolve versus blue. I'm unsure if I'll ever play it again.

I don't really like it either. Even in decks running Top, its just ... bleh. The new errata made it better in that it actually IS a ritual when you play it mainphase 1, but that -1 storm it retracts can hurt later on. Also, Merfolk can easily win with Wasteland and/or Mutavault and then 1-2 Islands with or without a vial. I would much rather be siding in additional Duress/Chant/Swarms than Carpet. Same with Thresh, they just fetch out 2-3 lands and you sit there with a deck chock full of rituals and no way to protect your action spells. IMOP there really is not point in running it in TES since we have enough rituals as it is. ANT Hybrids could potentially use it since I think Carpet is only good with DD strategies but is it really needed there either? And another reason not to run Carpet (if this isn't enough) is that I find blue decks almost always board in Grips/Disenchants to take care of Top or LEDs, and to flip more 3-ofs with CB.

Piceli89

02-14-2010, 07:38 PM

Bryant Cook

02-14-2010, 09:36 PM

I cut the Deathmarks for the Carpet of Flowers. I keep losing to Gaddeck Teeg + Counterbalance to knock me out of the event. It's rather frustrating, but I cant think of a way around it. I boarded in Grip/Wipeaway/Etruth/Chain and lost.