[Deck] Vampires

[HPB_Eggo]

I'm sure some of you saw a thread of this sort coming. I'm not exactly an enormous proponent of Tribal decks in general, and I have no idea if Vampires is going to be any good, but I think it merits some discussion and testing, which is what I'm going to devote a good period of time to. On first glance, this is what I'm looking at...

16x Swamp
4x Wasteland

4x Vampire Nocturnus
4x Dark Confdiant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Vampire Lacerator

4x Dark Ritual
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole

SB:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Vampire Hexmage
2x Feast of Blood

Some card choice explanations...

Vampire Nocturnus really wants SDT. It basically ensures that all your vampires get that +2/+1 and flying that they really need. The deck also really wants a way to gain lots of CA and, since we're running SDT and mono-black, Dark Confidant seemed the way to go, even though it's not a vampire.

Gatekeeper of Malakir is edict on a stick. I like it. You will, too.

Nighthawk is mildly ridiculous. Removes 'goyf, gains life, has evasion.

Lacerator is a first turn 2/2 that gets pumped by Nocturnus in the late game. The drawback? Conditional life loss. I'll take it.

Dark Ritual is one of the things that makes the deck ridiculous. First turn Confidant/Top or Nighthawk is hard to deal with, or, of course, the traditional Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach.

Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize are the best non-LD disruption that can be placed in a deck like this. It really doesn't get much better than these for mono-black.

Wasteland and Sinkhole provide an awful lot of LD. On par with Merfolk, although Sinkhole is not nearly as flexible as Stifle.

Overall, I'm thinking this could work quite well. I also think that it could use an awful lot of improvement, considering it's a first draft. I'm on the fence about including Sinkhole and Wasteland, the creature base might even appreciate some tweaking, and some additional creature removal may be necessary.

Possible not mentioned cards: Bloodghast/Cabal Therapy, Guul Draz Vampire, Vampire Aristocrat, Blood Seeker, Child of the Night, Smother, Diabolic Edict, Snuff Out

[Pastorofmuppets]

4 Nocturnus won't work very well with Bob.
If you want to, run Rituals and Arenas for your card advantage.

[johanessen]

4 Tops work well with confidant and the vampire king.

[HPB_Eggo]

4 Tops work well with confidant and the vampire king.

This.

Plenty of decks run Dark Confidant, SDT, and Force of Will, and it works fine.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I wish it didn't take True Blood/Twilight/Vampire Diaries, to make people realize how awesome Vampires are. To show up to any kind of event playing "Vampires", you might as well walk in wearing a Jonas Brother's t-shirt...Nothing's sacred, nothing is cool anymore.

enough rambling. I like the idea of the deck, and will probably play something similar with my Multiplayer Tribal group.

[Mastikor]

Few things I'd add: AEther Vial, some Jitte and the Hexmage/Dark Depths combo. I'm thinking of something like this:
4 Hexmage
4 Lancerator
4 Bloodghast
3 Gatekeeper
3 Nocturnus
4 Bob

4 Vial
2 Top
2 Jitte

4 Thoughtseize/Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Grim Discovery

11 Swamp
4 Dark Depths
3 Waste
2 Urborg

I'd like to add more disturbtion however...

[Pastorofmuppets]

4 Tops work well with confidant and the vampire king.

lol, I didn't see the tops.
I'm still not sure about the deck, I think the next expansion will either make or break the deck as a tribal force.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I'd like to add more disturbtion however...

A+ for making up a word.

I think the best thing this deck has for disruption is an early Thoughtseize. I like your version better Mastikor, but I think it needs the Hymns in the Grim Discovery's slot.

[DragoFireheart]

My suggestion:

3 Hexmage
4 Lancerator
3 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper
3 Nocturnus
4 Bob

4 Vial
2 Top
2 Jitte

4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn

16 Swamp
3 Dark Depths



Hymn is just a nasty card and not running 4-of is a mistake: it's both card advantage and disruption.

You want 4 Gatekeepers as it's an excellent tempo card: You kill a creature and get a body.

I took out the wastelands as unless you are going to run sinkhole, it's not worth it.

Vials are good for getting around Counter-Balance.

[keys]

You need more than 16 mana sources...

[DragoFireheart]

You need more than 16 mana sources...

That isn't enough with Rituals? They are basic and non-fetchs so you don't need to worry about mana-denial strats.

[AngryTroll]

Jitte should probably find its way into these lists. I'd also run some more removal (conveniently, Jitte counts) to back up the Gatekeeper; Edicts are strong, but they're stronger when paired with something like Smother.

[DragoFireheart]

Would it be possible / feasible to maybe squeeze in a Tombstalker or two? Sure, he's not a vampire, but he's amazing and works well with Dark Ritual.

[Digital Devil]

What about the classic Vial/Waste/Port package, as well as hand disruption and an alt-win condition via Depths?

Would it be possible / feasible to maybe squeeze in a Tombstalker or two? Sure, he's not a vampire, but he's amazing and works well with Dark Ritual.He may work well with Dark Ritual, but Dark Confidant seems to disagree.


I'd like to add more disturbtion however...

A+ for making up a word.
It's not worse than "Coutnerblaance". I don't remember who said this, though...

[DragoFireheart]

What about the classic Vial/Waste/Port package, as well as hand disruption and an alt-win condition via Depths?
He may work well with Dark Ritual, but Dark Confidant seems to disagree.




Yeah, that can be an issue.

I could see a Vial/Wasteland/Sinkhole/Port package working, though it would be a different list.

[XiaN]

Maybe something like


15x Swamp
2x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Wasteland

4x Dark Confdiant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Bloodghast
4x Vampire Nocturnus
3x Vampire Nighthawk

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smother
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Umezawas Jitte
2x Cabal Therapy

Cards i would consider running in that deck :

-> Only 3 Nocturnus
-> Malakir Bloodwitch
-> Guul Draz Vampire
-> Child of Night
-> Blood Seeker in the SB
-> Vampire Hexmage in the SB
-> The Urborg Land
-> Sinkhole sounds solid, too
-> Green splash for ... Goyf of cause
-> Bitterblossom
-> Contamination !!!!!

[HPB_Eggo]

Few things I'd add: AEther Vial, some Jitte and the Hexmage/Dark Depths combo. I'm thinking of something like this:

There's very little point to adding AEther Vial to the deck, other than making threats uncounterable, which isn't really all that much of a problem. You have discard to get rid of Countertop before it hits the table, and the occasional counterspell is really not to be worried about that much.

Jitte is good, but it's also slow. Since we're already using SDT, which is not a threat and uses quite a lot of mana, adding Jitte on top of it is not a good idea.

Hexmage and Dark Depths is a possibility, but this means reducing the number of creatures you're running to fit in some number of Dark Depths, since it really counts as a creature, not a land. My first impression is that, with only SDT to find the other half of the combo, the two pieces will be sitting around dead in your hand a great deal more than half the time, but I'll put some testing in and see.


You need more than 16 mana sources...

At least 18 lands are necessary, even with Vial and Ritual. I've learned at least that much testing through today.


I'd also run some more removal (conveniently, Jitte counts) to back up the Gatekeeper; Edicts are strong, but they're stronger when paired with something like Smother.

I've been testing with Smother and/or Feast of Blood in various slots throughout the day, and I'd have to say adding another slot for removal is probably a good idea. I'm just not sure what's right to cut.

I'm thinking of testing it in the Dark Ritual slot, just to see what happens, but other suggestions would be nice.


-> Only 3 Nocturnus

It's certainly a possibility, but I've always found myself glad to cast him, as the game is generally over when I do.


-> Malakir Bloodwitch

Just plain no. The fact that it costs five and relies on having creatures in play to be any good makes it either entirely useless or pointlessly win-more, depending on the situation.


-> Guul Draz Vampire

Certainly a possibility, but I would only put him in the Lacerator slot, and I'm thinking conditional damage to yourself is better than conditional damage to your opponent.


-> Child of Night

Again, only in the Lacerator slot, and he is definitely a stronger contender than Guul Draz Vampire because of the Lifelink.


-> Blood Seeker in the SB

Definitely a possibility, although I'm not sure what he would come in against. Ichorid, maybe, or something of that sort.


-> Vampire Hexmage in the SB

Exactly where it belongs, IMO. Good against Vial, amazing against Landstill, and piss poor against everything else.


-> The Urborg Land

Opens us up to Wasteland for minimal benefit. Probably not worth the slot.


-> Sinkhole sounds solid, too

It's been solid for me all day, so long as I've also been playing with Wasteland.


-> Green splash for ... Goyf of cause

And open up the seemingly necessary Tribal+Goyf conversation.

It's been tried or suggested for Goblins and for Merfolk. It doesn't work there, so I honestly don't see why it would work here. Similarly, an argument can be made that Hexmage and Dark Depths are similar to Stifle and Dreadnought, which some people attempted to put into Merfolk until they realized it really wasn't any good there and dropped it.


-> Bitterblossom

It's a possibility, although it seems rather counter-intuitive. Maybe with...


-> Contamination !!!!!

Only in the SB, though. And probably only with Bloodghast, just like I would only run Cabal Therapy with Bloodghast.

[Mystical_Jackass]

My thoughts:

Possibly run Damnation for more of a counter-aggro style, disrupt early on, let them rush you and reset?

Some Ideas:
- meh, I dont like Vial in a deck like this
- Phyrexian Arena over Confidant?
- Buried Alive --> Bloodghast
- 1-2 Cairn Wanderer? (w/ vampire nighthawk, bloodghasts, etc. = 4/4 (or 6/5)flying, deathtouch, lifelink, haste, pimp) His only drawback is he's ugly :\


-> Bitterblossom
-> Contamination !!!!!
Why does everyone think every black deck should run this -.- lol


I wish it didn't take True Blood/Twilight/Vampire Diaries, to make people realize how awesome Vampires are. To show up to any kind of event playing "Vampires", you might as well walk in wearing a Jonas Brother's t-shirt...Nothing's sacred, nothing is cool anymore.

ROFL. That's funny as shi*

[zabuza]

I was thinking on a build like those ones. The good point of this deck is that can include the combo with depths in a very suitable way. You only need 2-3 depths, 2-3 urborgs and the vampire. If you play a green splash you can use crop rotation to combo out from nowhere but is only an idea.

I think the most efficient base of creatures inlcude:

Vampire Lacerator (another turn one drop that can grow).
Guul Draz Vampire (our turn one drop)
Bloodghast (is always going to come and come again so you can sacrify it with aristocrat play fetch, sacrifice it again, search with fetch and sacrify again to give a +3/+3 to any other vampire of your choice.)
Vampire Hexmage (BEAUTIFUL ART, first strike, combo, nice utilities, MVP ;) )
Gatekeeper of Malakir (removal and a body, nice to see you)
Vampire Nighthawk (is a house, flies, lifelink, deathtouch) if only first strike is the king of the table.
vampire nocturnus (Another MVP, gives all your vampires a good bonus)


I probably include:

Blade of the Bloodchief
Vampire Aristocrat

as a couple of them too because you can make an alfa strike only with those ones on play.

[Skeggi]

SB:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Vampire Hexmage
2x Feast of Blood


I agree with the Plagues and the Relics. The Hexmages should be ran maindeck along with Dark Depths. Against what would you side in Hexmages? Affinity?

I don't think you need Extirpate if you're already running 3 Relics. You may want to consider throwing in a Tormod's Crypt, just for kicks.

Anyway, maindeck I'd run 4x Fetch and a Bayou, so you can run Krosan Grip in the side.

And Pithing Needle is good.

After some toying I'd run something like this in a an almost mono-black aggro based deck:

3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Perish
3 Duress <= against control and combo, very nice to have in addition to the Thoughtseizes.

[HPB_Eggo]

I do not like the Dark Depths and Hexmage combo. Here are my reasons, which you may or may not agree with.

Hexmage is a good card, and absolutely great against certain decks, foremost in my mind being Goblins, where it sets Vial to zero in response to activation and its first strike lets it kill Piledriver, and Landstill, where it clears out Engineered Explosives and kills Elspeth and the like. It's good against Merfolk for the same reasons as Goblins, and decent against anything that runs Vial.

Dark Depths is not a good card. It's absolutely horrible by itself. You don't want to draw it and have no access to a Hexmage, just like you don't want to draw Dreadnought without access to a Stifle effect.

Now, you can take a look at Stifle/Dreadnought and realize that the two combos are very similar. They both take two mana, and they both create enormous creatures at low cost to finish the game.

Attempts have been made to fit Stifle/Dreadnought into Merfolk. It simply does not work. Even though Merfolk has the draw power to reliably find both pieces before the end of the game, it seriously messes with the way the deck should be run. It took the creation of a deck centered on the Stifle/Dreadnought combo, Dreadstill, for it to really make any large impact on Legacy.

It's the same here. Hexmage/Dark Depths is a great combo. It does not belong in a Tribal deck, much more so a Tribal deck that has a difficult time drawing cards if the opponent is playing any removal for Dark Confidant. True, Hexmage is a vampire, so half the combo fits quite well into the Tribal theme, but in testing I've found it near impossible to set up, and all but one of the times I did so, Marit Lage immediately ate an StP, WoG, or PtE. People aren't stupid. When they see Hexmage or Dark Depths on the board, they save their removal. True, you can hold back on one part until you have both, but it makes no sense to do so in a deck that cannot afford to hold threats in its hand rather than play them out.

Regardless, my testing has shown that Hexmage/Dark Depths is simply not good in this deck. It will probably take a deck devoted solely to winning on the back of the combo before it will ever be any good, and that would most likely involve splashing both green and blue, which would absolutely demolish the core of the deck, not to mention open it up to all sorts of problems with its mana base.

I suppose I'll address Bloodghast recursion shenanigans now, as well. Bloodghast is a great card. It comes back, and then it comes back again. However, just like the Hexmage/Depths combo, this is not the right deck to be running him in. I've tried him with Cabal Therapy and Vampire Aristocrat, and while decent, I generally wished I had a Nighthawk or a pair of Lacerators instead. One of the few decks the recursion is really good against is Ichorid, where it kills Bridges.

Beyond this, Bloodghast can't block, and he's not very good at attacking. Sure, he recurs, but the most played removal spell in the format, StP, removes him from the game rather than putting him in the graveyard. He becomes much better after you get your opponent below 10 health, but then I'd rather just have Guul Draz Vampire, which is a real beating, although, again, only when your opponent is below 10 health, at which point you should already be winning and, therefore, what you're winning with doesn't really matter.

So, to make it short, I'd be all for him if he could block, but he can't, so I'm not. Again, great card, wrong deck. I'm sure some Ichorid players will be very happy with him, though.


Against what would you side in Hexmages? Affinity?

It's already up there, but I'll say it again. Hexmage is great against Goblins and Landstill, and at least better than many other options against Merfolk and Affinity, where it also kills Ravager, which is something I forgot to mention up above. Beyond that, though, it's basically worse than most of the other options available to the deck.


I don't think you need Extirpate if you're already running 3 Relics. You may want to consider throwing in a Tormod's Crypt, just for kicks.

I had come to that conclusion at some point late yesterday. I'm thinking Extirpate stays and Relic goes, though, as Extirpate is a much broader card than Relic ever will be, i.e. it's absurdly good against Control and Combo, and Extirpating Tropical Island against Countertop or Tempo Thresh when they have none in play is generally the end of the game.


Anyway, maindeck I'd run 4x Fetch and a Bayou, so you can run Krosan Grip in the side.

If I was going to splash anything, it would be white, for Vindicate. It would often serve as another piece of LD, as well as being flexible removal that often gets around Countertop. White also allows for StP or PtE, which may or may not be a good thing.


And Pithing Needle is good.

I've never liked it, but I'm not going to dispute that it is really good in the right scenario.


against control and combo, very nice to have in addition to the Thoughtseizes.

I ended up moving Duress into the board over Relic, so I definitely agree with this.

[workingdude]

True, Hexmage is a vampire, so half the combo fits quite well into the Tribal theme, but in testing I've found it near impossible to set up, and all but one of the times I did so, Marit Lage immediately ate an StP, WoG, or PtE.

That is one powerful WoG, then.

But I agree that dark depths is grossly overrated, especially if decklists are not running urborg (because of wasteland vulnerability or whatnot) to give it the ability to tap for mana.

[Mystical_Jackass]

That's why you really need a deck more suited for it, splashing green for Life from the Loam or Crop Rotation, etc.
Tribal decks need a lot more consistency, prolly not worth the effort in this deck imo

[XiaN]

A friend of mine discussed about this deck in ICQ today and we came up with


4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nocturnus

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Buried Alive
3 Bloodchief Ascension

We don't know about Wasteland ( maybe to many colorless mana then ), the Ascension and Smother, yet.

[HPB_Eggo]

That is one powerful WoG, then.

Bleh. I was thinking Progenitus or somesuch for whatever reason. It happens when you're not getting any sleep.


4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nocturnus

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Buried Alive
3 Bloodchief Ascension

There's very little reason to be running fetches just for the deck thinning. At some point in the goblins thread I think there's some statistical measures of how pointless it is, but I'm not exactly sure where.

Bloodchief Ascension is just plain bad; I tested it, it was always too slow. Buried Alive seems similar, even if it can grab all three Bloodghasts I would rather do something else with my three mana.


That's why you really need a deck more suited for it, splashing green for Life from the Loam or Crop Rotation, etc.
Tribal decks need a lot more consistency, prolly not worth the effort in this deck imo

This.

Testing has been fairly positive. Not great, but definitely good. Extirpate and Nighthawk have been good all day, and I'm thinking playing more Hexmage in the board is probably a good idea, especially with Goblins set to become more prevalent in the meta. At least, IMO.

At some point I'm going to test Cabal Therapy + Bloodghast in place of either Hymn to Tourach or Thoughtseize and some number of Top/Confidant/Nocturnus/Lacerator. We'll see how that goes.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Fetches are ok with DT, I hate bumping into another DT right after I get one out lol. Maybe cut down to 3?

Smallpox could possibly be used as sorta a hybrid in-between sinkhole and hymn, which works as a discard outlet for bloodghast early game.

[XiaN]

The fetchies are there to assure that we can recur the Bloodghast as often as possible. And first turn buried alive is the sickest move we can make turn one.

Bloodchief Ascension hmm ... i'll give it a try.

[Apex]

Plus, there's always the neat trick of activating fetches when the top card of your library isn't black, to get another chance at turning on the Nocturnus. Something small, but seems worth it if they already help with Bloodghasts anyway.

Though I don't think Buried Alive is worth it. It's cute, but I don't think it's powerful enough.

[Lothian]

you're missing Necro

[Cidolfus]

At a glance this deck looks like it really needs more viable vampires to work. Nocturnus is a 4cc creature whose strength is dependant on the number of vampires you are running. If we could just get two or three playable vamps in the next sets, we could switch to a more vial, jitte, creature-centric build.

[(nameless one)]

At a glance this deck looks like it really needs more viable vampires to work. Nocturnus is a 4cc creature whose strength is dependant on the number of vampires you are running. If we could just get two or three playable vamps in the next sets, we could switch to a more vial, jitte, creature-centric build.

I agree with this dude...

Vampire Nighthawk is a house, no doubt

Gatekeeper of Malakir is flexible

and Vampire Hexmage is a damn fine utility creature

but other than that, what? Vampire Nocturnus is good but is it good in legacy? I like the idea of running Sensei's Divining Top with him, along with Dark Confidant but doesnt this make this deck too mana extensive for an aggro deck? You might say that goblins are mana extensive too but goblins have way too much support to justify being mana extensive. I am actually considering running Sign in Blood as my cantrip instead of BOB.

Bloodghast returns every landfall into the battlefield but not able to block is pretty weak. Good synergy with Contamination and Cabal Therapy but is that enough?

Maybe a Vampire-disruption build? Maybe based it on pox's disruption. I would love to see vampires cut it to legacy (because of Vampire Nighthawk. that dude is house)