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View Full Version : [Article]Knowing the game, not only yours.



citanul
10-05-2009, 07:19 AM
I've recently started writing, mostly out of boredom. And what's better to write about than something you love and adore, Magic. I'm looking for feedback on anything, the content, sentence structure, anything to improve myself. Thanks in advance. And here's the Article:

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I recently asked a teammate what he thought of me as a player. He gave me several compliments and one jumped out to me ‘You see all the plays’. I thought about it for a while, why was I able to see a certain play while an other might’ve missed it. Is it because I have a better understanding of the game? Is it because I’m smarter or is my logic more adaptable to magic? The answer I came up with is knowledge. Knowledge is the key to everything.

Most people know their deck. They played with it for a while, they build it even if it was copied, they wrote down a deck list. They know what it can and can’t do. They also know their match-ups, either by checking it on the internet or testing it themselves. So you can say they have the knowledge of their deck. The problem is that people lack the knowledge of other parts of the game, such as the opponents deck or rules. And that will be the topic of this article, the importance of knowing cards that you are not playing with. Before we can talk about that, I do want to stress the importance of knowing the stack and being able to play around with it. I’ll elaborate on this in another article someday.

I’ll start of with a basic example that every Legacy and even Vintage player should know about, Bridge from Below. It is played in a popular deck called Ichorid. It’s obvious that Bridge from Below creates 2/2 tokens if a non-token creature dies from the owner. It’s also known that the Bridges get removed when an opponents creature goes to the graveyard. What doesn’t seem familiar is that Bridge checks if it is still in the graveyard before it creates those 2/2 tokens. You see, triggers usually don’t care if the origin of that trigger is still in play. Dark Confidant will reveal that card and Goblin Matron will look for a child to nurture, even if they die before the trigger resolves. Bridge is different, it clearly sais so on the card.

If the Ichorid player sacrifices a creature to Cabal Therapy with Bridges in the graveyard several things happen. First Cabal Therapy comes onto the stack, as a casting cost for that a creature was sacrificed and Bridge Triggers will go on the stack. You can react to those triggers by removing the Bridges in any way possible, be it sacrificing a creature, using Tormod’s Crypt or even using Wasteland on your own animated Mishra’s Factory. Bridges will be removed first, then the 2/2 Zombies trigger but someone destroyed their Bridge, they can’t cross. Easy no? Apparently it isn’t as obvious as I’ve seen plenty of people miss it. They got their brains eaten by 2/2 Zombies because they didn’t know everything about that Bridge. They thought that the triggers where on the stack and it would be irrelevant to remove them now, it was to late for them while it really wasn’t.

This is a play I saw in the quarterfinals of a Legacy tournament. It was Merfolk against AnT, Merfolk had maindeck Divert. AnT has 3 mana and uses one to cast Duress. The merfolk player casts Daze, AnT player pays. Divert gets cast on the Duress with a Cursecatcher still in play. The play was well thought out, Daze made him pay that 2nd mana he needed to pay for Divert, Cursecatcher prevented any form of mana acceleration like Dark Ritual of that remaining mana. There was no way that the AnT player was getting around Divert. There was only one thing that he missed. Duress sais target opponent. Divert resolves and a new target is chosen for Duress but there is only one legal target, the merfolk player. He knew that Duress makes you discard a non-creature card but he didn’t know the full card and he paid a heavy price for it.

Last example. You are playing Merfolk, your opponent is playing Ichorid. You have cursecatcher in hand, an Aether Vial at 1, an Aether Vial at 2, Island, Island, Island, Mutavault, Merrow Reejerey, Merrow Reejerey and a Lord of Atlantis in play. Your opponent has amassed an army of to many Zombie tokens for you to hit through but enough to kill you next turn if he attacks. He himself is at 2 life, no cards in hand, nothing relevant in graveyard and has 32 Zombie tokens, Gemstone Mine with 2 counters, City of Brass, Golgari Thug, Golgari Thug and a Narcomoeba in play. He passes the turn to you because he can’t attack yet. You hope to draw an Echoing Truth to bounce the tokens and swing but draw a Merfolk Sovereign instead. It would have won you the game if it came a turn earlier yet there is a way to win this game right here and now. I’ll give the answer at the end of the article.

So how do you learn all this stuff? You can’t possibly know every card in existence. Ok it is possible but it would be unneeded. First of all there are the rules, you can ask a judge anything concerning cards at anytime, even if the card isn’t present in the game. You can ask clarifications on it but you can’t ask for the result of certain plays, the judges are just there to aid you with rules and cards. Also, know the stack. I already mentioned this before but it is really useful. Since the stack is part of the rules, you can ask the judge about this. You can ask what comes on the stack first and what after like the Cabal Therapy play, do the Bridge triggers come first or does the Therapy come first? If you are not sure and think it might be important, just ask. Something else important that is in the rules, your opponent is not allowed to lie to you about public information such as asking for a creatures power and toughness when it is attacking you. He can’t say that it is a 2/2, making you block and then telling you it’s a 3/3 due to exalted because that makes him a cheater. He can choose not to tell you stuff like the cards in his graveyard but you can count that if you want to. He is not obliged to tell you hidden information such as which cards are in his hand or in his deck.

There is also reading and understanding the cards. Try reading the cards and at the same time think about what it changes about other cards in play or just in general. What does the card specifically do? Let’s take Leyline of the Void and Planar Void as an example. Leyline has “If a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, remove it from the game instead” while Planar Void has “Whenever another card is put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile that card.” They generally do the same, remove cards from the game if they go to the graveyard yet there is a difference. Leyline is a replacement effect and the card will never go to the graveyard, therefore triggers that happen when things go to the graveyard won’t happen if there is a Leyline in play, they will happen when Planar Void is in play. The difference is in the word ‘Instead’. So if you read Leyline but don’t understand it completely you might miss that the Helm of Obedience in play will kill you. If you read Leyline and aren’t sure what happens, ask a judge. It is a rules question and he or she will answer it.

I promised the answer to the Merfolk against Ichorid problem and it’s rather easy. You can cast your Cursecatcher and Sovereign. This means that you have 4 triggers to resolve from Merrow Reejerey. Cast one of your merfolk and place the Reejerey triggers on the stack, untap City of Brass, tap City of Brass. Stack resolves so Brass gets tapped then untapped, dealing one damage to the Ichorid player. Yes that’s correct, City of Brass sais whenever it becomes tapped, it doesn’t matter how it got tapped. Do the same with your other merfolk in hand and you have successfully dealt the last two damage, winning you the game.

Nizmox
10-05-2009, 07:36 AM
A very enjoyable and informative article.
But what's the solution to learn the intricacies of important legacy cards/rule interactions? How did you learn it? I think part of the issue is, people read a card, think they know how it works and virtually never reread or rethink their interpretation.

4eak
10-05-2009, 07:45 AM
Agreed. Knowing your opponent's deck and the individual quirks of cards is quite valuable.

I think the best way to know your opponent's deck is to sit down and play it, preferably with a good player of the deck sitting behind you, coaching you for a few games.

When we become intimately familiar with our opponent's decklist, we play another mini-game at the house. Given appropriate points in the game, we guess outloud our opponent's hand (w/out Peek effects); if our opponent guesses our hand, we usually let them know they were correct. If our guess is based upon knowledge of our opponent's playstyle or body language we also try to point it out. Nothing is scarier than being read completely.

Constantly having to think through your head what you opponent is holding and the implications of what they could draw into should be standard practice. I think it can be difficult to do.




peace,
4eak

Lejay
10-05-2009, 07:49 AM
Article in two words : "read cards".

Yeah thanks.

undone
10-05-2009, 08:21 AM
Interesting but I agree it boils down to RTFC

An example that occurs countless times I play tempo thresh.

"Kill nimble mongoose with swords/bolt/path"
"It has shroud"

No matter how many times you tell some people they just ignore it and its annoying. The artical was somewhat of a "Be smarter" artical which is somewhat interesting but still its a "be smarter, just RTFC"

EDIT: At least we arent talking about RTFC humility, that rules nightmare. I actualy saw someone with humility in play animate a mishras factory to block a Magus of the moon and the MOTM player said it was a trade, the amount of judge explanations and problems that occured following it was just dumb... I guess RTFC doesnt always work but in the listed situations not reading the cards is somewhat lazy.

Skeggi
10-05-2009, 08:40 AM
Interesting but I agree it boils down to RTFC

An example that occurs countless times I play tempo thresh.

"Kill nimble mongoose with swords/bolt/path"
"It has shroud"

No matter how many times you tell some people they just ignore it and its annoying. The artical was somewhat of a "Be smarter" artical which is somewhat interesting but still its a "be smarter, just RTFC"

I didn't read the article, because, you know, TL;DR. But I know for a fact that knowing the card =/= knowing the game. If you know how to play against Tempo Thresh (play around Stifle/Wasteland/Daze, kill their creatures) it's a pretty easy match-up (if you can pull it off, ofcourse). That's something else than simply knowing a Nimble Mongoose has Shroud.



At least we arent talking about RTFC humility, that rules nightmare. I actualy saw someone with humility in play animate a mishras factory to block a Magus of the moon and the MOTM player said it was a trade, the amount of judge explanations and problems that occured following it was just dumb... I guess RTFC doesnt always work but in the listed situations not reading the cards is somewhat lazy.
Well, it's not that bad. Mishra's Factory can never ever block a Magus of the Moon. Not even if there's a Humility in play. Because it's a Mountain. Want to know why? Read the Humility section in the Rules Forum.

Otter
10-05-2009, 09:05 AM
A little more depth would have been nice.

Also, know the stack. I already mentioned this before but it is really useful.
This is just excessive emphasis on the basics. If someone doesn't know the stack and hasn't gotten the hint that learning it might be useful, I don't think they're the sort of people that are really looking to improve. Maybe if they're a newer standard player, but how many people just pick up legacy out of nowhere?

jazzykat
10-05-2009, 09:12 AM
Not only do you need to read the card, but understand basic interactions. Also, playing a variety of competitive decks in practice even if you are only going to play deck X is informative and helps give you a feel of what other decks are/aren't capable of.

MMogg
10-05-2009, 09:17 AM
I didn't read the article, because, you know, TL;DR. But I know for a fact that knowing the card =/= knowing the game. If you know how to play against Tempo Thresh (play around Stifle/Wasteland/Daze, kill their creatures) it's a pretty easy match-up (if you can pull it off, ofcourse). That's something else than simply knowing a Nimble Mongoose has Shroud. (emphasis added)

QFT!

I get what the OP is saying in that you need to be able to see options before you can choose the best one. In the old Magic magazines they used to have game situations and it would always be something along the lines of "win this turn or you die" and contained a picture showing in-game play and your hand. The key always involved multiple steps and was never just "hulk smash". I think "RTFC" is an oversimplification of the article's main point, which seems to be know intimately how cards interact and can be used/abused in order to capitalize on them. It seems a bit of "duh!", but I think we all have had moments where we didn't see what our friends saw.

P.S.: @ OP, "might've" is not a proper contraction.

Bryant Cook
10-05-2009, 09:36 AM
The source, your source for bitching.

Jak
10-05-2009, 11:52 AM
Playing a game versus a fairly new player yesterday and I drop a Nimble Momgoose. I let him read it because I could tell he didn't know what it did. He then tries to play the new O Ring that only hits creatures on the Mongoose...

Me: "it has shroud."
Him: *rereads card* "you should have told me that."

:/

Offler
10-05-2009, 12:51 PM
I will describe what happened year ago when i started playing Magic...

I was 24... Some of my co-players were much younger as i am - three to ten years. I have chosen blue color and Highlander format. We played several times with standard 60 card format but i did not liked that game at all, so i decided to build something more complicated and more funny.

For few weeks everything was right, but when i tried play some more complicated combinations i got answers that "this does not work"... Well what exactly didnt?

I asked them if i can play Vesuvan Shapeshifter for 3 mana morph cost. Well they answered that i cannot, because it is not written on that card. (Of course they were wrong...)

Later I had in play Vesuvan Shapeshifter faced down in play for a while and Inkwell leviathan came into play. Big Bad Wolf :D Vesuvan was in play for a while, so i turned it face up trying to turn it into Inkwell and attack (since opponent had an island in play). Well I asked why i cant do this - oh yes the Inkwell had shroud. (again they were wrong. Vesuvan does not target).

Next turn when Summ sickness of inkwell worn off i attacked, and next turn Wrath of god cleaned the table. I looked up for the rules... This way the opponent prevented more than 21 damage if i count only the inkwell and its copy...

Blue... i have barely seen decks which were based on this color. Almost no one in here (location, not he web :D) knows how does these cards work. But neither i did. I asked on one local forum, but when the answer was not complete i asked again, and again and again :) Same i did about card interactions. I have never heard a longer list of things that are impossible, or as they believe to be impossible.

In rules and especially the card rulings can be hidden something very evil :)

For example Copy Enchantment. Well opponent had in play card with shroud and i had Confiscate on his Elspeth. I copied the Confiscate stealing his big bad shroud pet. He asked why... well i found a little tiny text in rulings

10/1/2005 If you choose an Aura, you also choose a legal permanent for the Copy Enchantment copy of it to enchant. Copy Enchantment doesn't target that permanent, however, so it can come into play attached to an untargetable creature.

Such things just annoy me even when i can benefit from them, but blue color is like this.

I like the trick with City of Brass. Its the way i can kill my opponent, but i believe that if i try something like this i will be accused of cheating.

Kuma
10-05-2009, 03:06 PM
A couple things:

1) The article is somewhat limited in scope. As written, it's only of value to a new Magic player (or at least new to competitive Magic) who plays the Legacy format. If that's your audience, then that's okay, but know your audience.

2) Ichorid and Bridge From Below were good examples. Many strong Magic players, even Legacy players, don't fully understand how the cards work. I've had lots of people chump block an Ichorid believing that my Bridges would be removed before I get tokens.

Humility might have been a better example since you almost never can have your questions answered by just reading the card.

3) The complaint that your article boils down to RTFC isn't completely true, but it isn't invalid either. You should add an example of knowing how to play against a certain deck or deck archetype.

4) Your grammar and sentence structure need work. You have lots of unnecessary words and sentences. I'm going to bold suggested changes in your article.

I recommend the book "Wright Tight: How to Say What You Mean With Precision and Power"

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I recently asked a teammate what he thought of me as a player. He gave me several compliments, but one jumped out to me.

"You see all the plays."

Why was I able to see certain plays that others missed? Was it because I have a better understanding of the game? Was it because I’m smarter or my logic more adaptable to Magic? The answer I came up with is knowledge. Knowledge is the key to everything.

Most people know their deck. They've played with it, and they know what it can and can’t do. They might even know their matchups either through research or testing. The problem is that people lack knowledge of other parts of the game such as their opponent's deck or the rules. It is important to know how Magic cards work, even ones you're not playing with. Knowledge of the rules is crucial, especially knowing how the stack works. But that's an article for another day.

One card that every Legacy and Vintage player should know about is Bridge From Below. It is played in a popular deck called Ichorid.

<insert picture of Bridge From Below here>

What isn't immediately obvious is that Bridge checks if it is still in the graveyard before it creates those 2/2 tokens. Triggers usually don’t care if the origin of that trigger is still in play. Dark Confidant will reveal that card and Goblin Matron will look for a goblin even if they die before the trigger resolves.

If the Ichorid player sacrifices a creature to flashback Cabal Therapy with Bridges in the graveyard, two things happen. First Cabal Therapy is put on the stack. Then Bridge triggers will be put on the stack on top of Cabal Therapy. You can respond to those triggers by exiling the Bridges in any way possible, be it sacrificing a creature, using Tormod’s Crypt or even using Wasteland on your own animated Mishra’s Factory. When those triggers resolve, they check to see if the Bridge From Below that created them is still in the graveyard. If it isn't, no Zombie is put onto the battlefield. Easy, no? Apparently it isn’t obvious, as I’ve seen plenty of people miss it. They got their brains eaten by 2/2 Zombies because they didn’t know everything about that Bridge. They thought that it would be irrelevant to remove the Bridges now, they thought that it was too late for them.

But it wasn't.

Add a bit about what happens if creatures go to both graveyards at the same time

In the quarterfinals of a Legacy tournament, Merfolk was playing ANT. ANT has three mana and uses one to cast Duress. The merfolk player casts Daze, and the ANT player pays for it. Then, the Merfolk player casts Divert targeting the Duress with a Cursecatcher on the battlefield. The play was seemingly well thought out --- Daze made him pay that second mana he needed to pay for Divert, and Cursecatcher prevented any form of mana acceleration like Dark Ritual with that remaining mana. There was no way that the ANT player was getting around Divert.

Or was there?

Duress says target opponent. Divert resolves and a new target is chosen for Duress, but there is only one legal target: the Merfolk player. He knew that Duress makes you discard a non-creature card, but he didn’t know about the targeting, and he paid a heavy price for it.

Here's a puzzle to test your abilities. You are playing Merfolk. Your opponent is playing Ichorid. You have cursecatcher in hand, an Aether Vial at 1, an Aether Vial at 2, Island, Island, Island, Mutavault, Merrow Reejerey, Merrow Reejerey and a Lord of Atlantis in play. Your opponent has amassed an army of too many Zombie tokens for you to hit through, but enough to kill you next turn if he attacks. He is at two life, with no cards in hand, and nothing relevant in his graveyard. He has 32 Zombie tokens, a Gemstone Mine with 2 counters, City of Brass, Golgari Thug, Golgari Thug and a Narcomoeba in play. He passes the turn to you because he can’t attack yet. You hope to draw an Echoing Truth to bounce the tokens and swing, but you draw a Merfolk Sovereign instead. It would have won you the game if it came a turn earlier...

But you smile because you can still win this turn. I’ll give the answer at the end of the article.

So how do you learn all this stuff? You can’t possibly know every card in existence. Okay, it is possible but also unnecessary. You can ask a judge questions concerning cards at anytime, even if the card isn’t present in the game. You can ask for clarifications on the card, but you can’t ask for the result of acertain play --- the judges are just there to aid you with rules and cards. You can ask what is put on the stack first with the Cabal Therapy play. If you are not sure, and think it might be important, just ask. Know that your opponent is not allowed to lie to you about public information such as his creature's power and toughness when it is attacking you. He can’t say that it is a 2/2 and then tell you it’s a 3/3 due to exalted after you block, because that makes him a cheater. He can choose not to tell you about the cards in his graveyard, but you can ask to see them at any time. He is not obligated to tell you hidden information like which cards are in his hand or deck.

Answer: Cast your Cursecatcher and Sovereign. This means that you have four triggers to resolve from Merrow Reejerey. Untap and tap City of Brass two times. Yes, you read that correctly. City of Brass says, "Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped"; it doesn’t matter how. Congratulations! You won the game.

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I cut your paragraph about Leyline and Helm. I couldn't find a place for it in the article, and you might need room for your strategy and/ or Humility example.

It was also excessively wordy. I condensed it for you here:

Some cards are only slightly different from others. Know the difference between Leyline of the Void and Planar Void. One of these cards forms a lethal combo with Helm of Obedience. The other does not.

Anusien
10-05-2009, 05:31 PM
Well, it's not that bad. Mishra's Factory can never ever block a Magus of the Moon. Not even if there's a Humility in play. Because it's a Mountain. Want to know why? Read the Humility section in the Rules Forum.
Unless of course the Mishra's Factory player animates it in response to Magus of the Moon, who somehow gains haste and attacks into it.

Lejay
10-05-2009, 07:54 PM
Unless of course the Mishra's Factory player animates it in response to Magus of the Moon, who somehow gains haste and attacks into it.
"Geekery syndrome. Terminal stage of disease."

Skeggi
10-06-2009, 03:10 AM
Unless of course the Mishra's Factory player animates it in response to Magus of the Moon, who somehow gains haste and attacks into it.
Ofcourse! Thanks for pointing that out :cool:

Jason
10-06-2009, 04:13 AM
Unless of course the Mishra's Factory player animates it in response to Magus of the Moon, who somehow gains haste and attacks into it.

It's now my goal in life to have a 2/2 Mountain crush a Magus of the Moon's dreams

Digital Devil
10-06-2009, 05:03 AM
A thing that has always helped me winning is to imagine I have only a single, available turn before I lose (even if it's not true). This way I'll always give my best. Also, reading + maths is the key to victory.