[SCD] Spell Pierce

[pippo84]

Hope that it hasen't already been discussed, or at least I didn't notice it..
What do you think of Spell Pierce? Can it replace Spell Snare or Daze? Or could it be added to the counter slots in a U shell deck?
Ok, it doesn't hit Goyf, Quasali and Bob, but it seems interesting.
Discuss..

[MMogg]

Hope that it hasen't already been discussed, or at least I didn't notice it..
What do you think of Spell Pierce? Can it replace Spell Snare or Daze? Or could it be added to the counter slots in a U shell deck?
Ok, it doesn't hit Goyf, Quasali and Bob, but it seems interesting.
Discuss..

No, this cards licks balls. You're right, it doesn't hit creatures, which are the primary win conditions for most of the decks in the format, so that should tell you something.

Even in MUC, I think I'd rather Force Spike or Mana Leak, just because they aren't limited in scope. I'm not even a big fan of Spell Snare and this is strictly worse.
Discuss..

[Peter_Rotten]

It'd be nice you posted what the card does so ppl don't have to surf around looking for it.

[godryk]

This card is pretty playable, I think it could be used to protect a slow combo deck such as Reanimator and similar stuff. I have also seen some very skilled tempo players trying it this weekend as SB material as these decks have often played candies like Divert and Disrupt.

Anything playing Wasteland and Stifle could use it against things like Wrath of God, Elspeth and similar.

Other than that, it's a very narrow.

[MMogg]

This card is pretty playable, I think it could be used to protect a slow combo deck such as Reanimator and similar stuff. I have also seen some very skilled tempo players trying it this weekend as SB material as these decks have often played candies like Divert and Disrupt.

Anything playing Wasteland and Stifle could use it against things like Wrath of God, Elspeth and similar.

Other than that, it's a very narrow.

Both Divert and Disrupt net you cards: the former usually takes out one of their creatures with their own removal (2-for-1) and Disrupt's cantrip makes it a virtual 0-for-1, if that makes sense. Both cards are marginal at best, but even still, they have distinct advantages that Spell Pierce just doesn't have.
Discuss..

[DragoFireheart]

Here's my post from the Tempo Thresh forum.



I'd like to elaborate on why I think Spell Pierce is superior to Force Spike.

Here's a list of "bombs" that you never want to see resolved:

- Humility
- Ad Nauseum
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant
- Standstill
- Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top
- Trinisphere
- Chalice of the Void
- Blood Moon
- Aether Vial
- Dread Return
- Dream Halls
- Natural Order
- Stifle (on our fetches or on a PhD)

Any one of of these spells resolving can be a serious issue for our deck. Lets look at creatures that are nasty but are not quite potent enough when compared to non-creature spells:

- Tarmogoyf: He's nasty, but so is yours. You have Spell Snare to counter him (instead of using it on 2CMC spells like Counterbalance) and you can Ice him and swing for damage if you need to kill your opponent.

- Sower of Tempation: Fire/Ice and Bolt kills him. Not too much of an issue and it can only grab your Gofys and doesn't stop a Threshed Goose.

- Terravore: It's true that he is big and is probably one of the few exceptions where Force Spike is vastly superior to Spell Pierce. However, you can save counter magic specifically for him if you want.

- Countryside Crusher: You can counter with other counters instead, or you can bolt him when he first comes out. The nasty spells from the Aggro-Loam matchup are non-creature anyways, so having more counters that are harder to play around is better.

- Tombstalker: Not much you can do to stop it without Force or Submerge if they leave one mana open in anticipation of Daze, so Force Spike wouldn't make a difference here.


Lets face it: while Force Spike is nice in it's flexibility, Spell Pierce hits enough important spells while also forcing the opponent to wait longer before he can cast his end-game bombs. Also, Spell Pierce is better than Force Spike in mid-game if the match somehow drags out that long. The sacrifice of flexibility to have a cheap counter that requires more mana (something the opponent will be hard-pressed to have) is, in my opinion, a superior spell for this deck.

[quicksilver]

It'd be nice you posted what the card does so ppl don't have to surf around looking for it.

Be nice if you could have included the card in your post. I'll finally post it because it seems no one else will, they will just complain that it wasn't posted.

Spell Pierce :u:
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell unless its controller pays :2:.

[Peter_Rotten]

Be nice if you could have included the card in your post. I'll finally post it because it seems no one else will, they will just complain that it wasn't posted.

Spell Pierce :u:
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell unless its controller pays :2:.


Thank you. Now I know that the card sucks.

We want our counterspells to be able to counter creatures too.

[DragoFireheart]

Thank you. Now I know that the card sucks.

We want our counterspells to be able to counter creatures too.

It doesn't suck in the sideboard. It's an excellent sideboard card.

[pippo84]

Sorry I didn't post it at the beginning of the thread..
Thanks quicksilver for doing it.
Since I haven't still tested it I'm not sure about it, but it seems acceptable to me.. If someone tried it please leave your comments!
Btw I agree with DragoFireheart, probably it's better as a sideboard card, but my side is already tight.

[Shanghi Knights]

Thank you. Now I know that the card sucks.

We want our counterspells to be able to counter creatures too.

be that as it may some people do use negate, which this might be worth using in such slots, as jankey as it is compared to negate.

this card looks like a jankey negate crossed with pimped out disrupt.


It does look decent in a divert slot in decks that use divert. Definitely more functional than divert while working on the same unless principle.

[MMogg]

It doesn't suck in the sideboard. It's an excellent sideboard card.

In what deck, exactly, is this an "excellent" SB card, and what is it excellent against? That's a pretty big statement to call it excellent, so I'd like to know why.

[DragoFireheart]

In what deck, exactly, is this an "excellent" SB card, and what is it excellent against? That's a pretty big statement to call it excellent, so I'd like to know why.


Tempo Threshold. Having another cheap "pay X or spell is countered" is excellent in TT.

Also, you should glace at the big post I made.

[MMogg]

Tempo Threshold. Having another cheap "pay X or spell is countered" is excellent in TT.

Also, you should glace at the big post I made.

I did, and I disagree, mainly because I don't think these cards are meant to be mid-game cards. Sometimes they can be played and counter spells in the mid-game, sure, but I wouldn't rely on them as mid-game counters. Ok, if you're looking at Pierce as a mid-game counter, then why not just use Mana Leak or even a hard counter? Are you worried you may not have enough mana for a 2 cc counter in the mid-game?

Just saying Tempo Thresh would love more X counters isn't exactly saying against what decks it is superior against compared to the cards it already uses.

Again, with the environment looking increasingly aggro intensive, I don't see how this spell would be chosen over the others in the format. The wonder of Legacy is being able to choose the best-of-the-best spells, and you think Spell Pierce is really in that category? I'm not being a dick, I really can't fathom how this warrants a MD or SB slot.

[BreathWeapon]

I did, and I disagree, mainly because I don't think these cards are meant to be mid-game cards. Sometimes they can be played and counter spells in the mid-game, sure, but I wouldn't rely on them as mid-game counters. Ok, if you're looking at Pierce as a mid-game counter, then why not just use Mana Leak or even a hard counter? Are you worried you may not have enough mana for a 2 cc counter in the mid-game?

Just saying Tempo Thresh would love more X counters isn't exactly saying against what decks it is superior against compared to the cards it already uses.

Again, with the environment looking increasingly aggro intensive, I don't see how this spell would be chosen over the others in the format. The wonder of Legacy is being able to choose the best-of-the-best spells, and you think Spell Pierce is really in that category? I'm not being a dick, I really can't fathom how this warrants a MD or SB slot.

Because you're looking at it wrong, Spell Pierce is an early game counter that's still relevant as a mid-game counter with Daze, Stifle and Wasteland backing it up. As far as which decks Spell Pierce is better against, well it's an automatic substitution vs anything Swords to Plowshares or Burn is worthless or sub-pair against, which is actually a pretty long list. You SB Spell Pierce for the same reason you SB Path to Exile, it gives you redundancy in selected match ups.

[DragoFireheart]

Because you're looking at it wrong, Spell Pierce is an early game counter that's still relevant as a mid-game counter with Daze, Stifle and Wasteland backing it up. As far as which decks Spell Pierce is better against, well it's an automatic substitution vs anything Swords to Plowshares or Burn is worthless or sub-pair against, which is actually a pretty long list. You SB Spell Pierce for the same reason you SB Path to Exile, it gives you redundancy in selected match ups.


You also have to consider that TT might get screwed on it's land-destruction drops. It can be easy to play around a Force Spike or a Daze, but it's much tougher to play around Spell Pierce to get that Knight Errant on to the battlefield.

[undone]

Showing players who are good a spell pierce is aquard for them because they have two choices. ram big spells into a spell pierce or be timewalked waiting for mana to cast it out of spell pierce range. Its also fantastic in that it answers T1/2 top/CB when your on the play.

Heres a simple senerio. game 2

You tropical island/volc go your opponent knows what your playing. He wants to open top go, but consider the following. He now instead of daze/stifle having to be played around has to play around pierce/daze/stifle. If he choses to play around none he will likely get blown out, if he choses to play around the WRONG one he will likely be blown out. So it becomes a game of put you on X, which is never good for the opponent.

Pierce is great IMO but its great in the way disrupt is great, as a SB card.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

That's the thing though, this just doesn't seem as good as Daze...the alternate casting cost is really king in legacy...we don't like paying full price. Yes, it costs them two more instead of one, but halving of targets and lack of alternate cost really cripple this thing.

[undone]

That's the thing though, this just doesn't seem as good as Daze...the alternate casting cost is really king in legacy...we don't like paying full price. Yes, it costs them two more instead of one, but halving of targets and lack of alternate cost really cripple this thing.

Daze isnt as good as FOW, and counterspell isnt as good as FOW, that doesnt mean they will not see play. The reason for this is that you can run a total of 8 free counters that DONT suck, so 1 mana soft counters like this are very strong.

[Gui]

Daze isnt as good as FOW, and counterspell isnt as good as FOW, that doesnt mean they will not see play.
QFT

This card should see some play in decks that can actually handle creatures with something other than counters... UW-something always comes to mind due to infinite plowshares...

[Happy Gilmore]

Spell Pierce is very exciting for a number of reasons. I'll be surprised if it doesn't see play.