Bloody Death

[eq.firemind]

So there is nice new card in Zendikar that I realy want to break:


Bloodchief Ascension :b:
Enchantment

At the beginning of each end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension. (Damage causes loss of life.)

Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, if Bloodchief Ascension has three or more quest counters on it, you may have that player lose 2 life. If you do, you gain 2 life.

To make this card work, we need
a) to charge it fast, and
b) to fill opponent's graveyard.

IMHO the Red Death/Sligh shell is the best to abuse Ascension because it runs cheap burn for a) and black disruption for b)

Also, (quickly) charged Ascension means Loam, Dredge and Storm have some real troubles because theese decks put hellot of cards in their graves when they're trying to kill you. Burn - well, guess it :smile:

So I dig out some old Red Death lists, tweak them a little and here is what I have:

BLOODY DEATH

MANA (23)
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 :b:-fetches
4 Badlands
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Dark Ritual
Manabase runs 4 Rituals for explosive starts and 10 fetchlands to help Top and Lavamancer.
I also want to squeeze in 4 Wasteland, tests will show if it worth weakening manabase...

1-DROPS (18)
4 Bloodchief Ascension - Here is my new toy!
4 Lightning Bolt - Obv best burn, even better here 'cause it can charge Ascension at opponent's turn.
4 Thoughtseize - Obv
4 Grim Lavamancer - This guy is obv awesome, but he becomes even better 'cause he can charge Ascension at opponent's turn.
2 Sensei's Divining Top - see below

2-DROPS (13)
4 Dark Confidant - Obv
4 Hymn to Tourach - Obv
2 Terminate - We run :b: and :r:, so why not?
3 Oona's Prowler - Looks strange, but 3 evasive power for 2 mana is not bad at all and it enables more broken Ritual openings (like Rit+Ascension+Prowler)

3-DROPS (4)
2 Hypnotic Specter - Obv broken with Ritual, helps Ascension to charge (evasive 2 damage) and drain (discard),
2 Nyxathid - A big beater and I just want to use it in Legacy (Top to find discard to power it).

FREE SLOTS (2) - I don't know for now...

SIDEBOARD(under construction)
x Red Elemental Blast
x Tormod's Crypt/Relic/Extirpate/another GY hate
x Engeneered Plague
x Smash to Smithereens/Shattering Spree/another artifact hate
x Pithing Needle
x <insert your idea here>

Possible options for 2 free slots:
more Hypnotic Specter
Blightning
Tombstalker, but I fear demon will not work great with 4 Lavamancers and 4 Confidants
Magma Jet or another instant burn spell to have more ways to charge Ascension on opp's turn.
More removal: Terminate, Smother, Diabolic Edict, Gatekeeper of Malakir - tons of options here...
2/2 for :b
Withered Wretch - To deal with Goyf and GY-based strategies
Bitterblossom - This card is slow, but constant supply of chumpblockers/evasive beaters can be good...
Umezawa's Jitte - Obv broken, but IMHO needs more creatures to work with... Or Bitterblossom, but I fear the deck will be too slow...
Anathemancer - Can possibly do nice damage, also Top and Confi helps ou not ot miss landdrops if you need to Unearth it.
Funeral Charm - A small universal tool, not good in a world of Tarmo, but still kills Lackey, Confi and manadudes.
Reanimate - Reuse your dudes, steal their - why not try?
Bloodghast+Smallpox - The deck needs to be changed to play theese, maybe it will work out.

Now why I choose to run Sensei's Divining Top in Sligh-type deck?
1) It helps to get rid of uneeded copies of Lavamancers and Ascensions
2) It helps to dig out needed cards to charge or use Ascension
3) It helps to dig out discard to feed Nyxathid
4) (obv) It is great with Confidant
5) The deck itself is slower that classic Sligh/Red Death decks, but has better mid-late game (thanks Ascension) and needs some options to find right card in right time, so Top seems very helpfull here.

So what do you think about it?
Every suggestions will be appriciated!

[Waikiki]

The card gained my interest aswell but it seems horrible when you dont have it in your opening and topdecking it making it bad.

[eq.firemind]

The card gained my interest aswell but it seems horrible when you dont have it in your opening and topdecking it making it bad.
That's why I run Top: with the tricky artifact and 10 fetches you have nice card quality, so can find right cards to charge Ascension fast, or you can just play discard+beat+burn like Red Death decks of old.
The beauty of Ascension is that if you charged it, all cards like 'Seize, Hymn and creature removal suddenly become burn spells and all opp's nonpermanent spells become YOUR burn spells too.
This card seriously puts opponent on nerves, give him realy hard decisions and opens him to misplays - a very promissing pressure card if you ask me.

[caenel]

Just a little thought that immediately popped into my mind: Why play this red death style? If I recall correctly, the card says:

...put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere...
I'd like to try this one in a mill-burn style deck. Either splashing black only for the enchantment or making the splash heavier with added discard. I might have finally found a good use for Tome Scour :-)

I don't know, but with a charged Ancension, doesn't that card read:
U: Target opponent puts the top 5 cards from his or her deck into the graveyard. You gain 10 life and that opponent loses 10 life.

When imagining red, Burning Inquiry comes to mind:
R: Each player draws 3 cards, then discards 3 cards. You gain 6 life and each opponent loses 6 life.

Maybe we can even drop the red package and just go black/blue. Glimps the Unthinkable would be:
UB: Target player puts the top 10 card of his library into his graveyard. You gain 20 life and that player loses 20 life.


I'm becoming quite favorable of fitting this hidden gem into a UB discard deck. I'm just trying to figure out how to trigger its ability. Countersquall and Hideous End come to mind.

My main concern is that it needs 3 turns to get active. You need to find some way of protecting your enchantment for those 3 turns, after that, you just win.

[eq.firemind]

You are right about how Ascension works, but mill shell...
You will never charge it.

By the way, instant burn spells allow you to charge it in 2 turns because the cards reads:

At the beginning of each end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension.

That's why I promote Red Death to be the best shell for this card:
a) burn and beat components help to charge Ascension.
b) disrupt components help to abuse charged Ascension.
c) The new card fits in deck's general gameplan.
d) Unlike mill, common cards Red Death runs are good on their own.

Sidenote: Dark Ritual into Ascension + Ankh of Mishra in black LD-oriented deck promises lots of fun :wink:

[Hanni]

If you're going to make it Red Death style, at least make the rest of the shell look good.

Go back to the oldschool Red Death design to start it off, and change it from there. You won't see Bloodchief Ascension every game; don't make a deck that's only good with it, and relatively bad without it.

I agree with most of your card choices, just not all. I'd also go B/r/g with the deck, since there's a few goodies in green that you're going to want.

B/r/g Bloody Death

Lands (21)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wasteland

Creatures (16)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Putrid Leech
4 Tombstalker

Spells (23)
4 Bloodchief Ascension
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Lightning Bolt

That's roughly what I'd do.

The deck still performs very well without Bloodchief Ascension. You've got the best big undercosted beats the deck has in those colors, a solid disruption package with 8 discard effects and 8 land destruction effects, and 7 removal spells with 4 of them being "free" destroy target nonblack creature and 3 of them being 3 targeted damage. Since the deck runs Grim Lavamancer, the amount of damage you should be able to consistently do every turn should be more than enough to satisfy Bloodchief Ascension. The lack of Dark Ritual is disturbing, but there's really no room for it, and 4 spells (16 total) require other colors anyway. There are only 5 spells (20 total) that you would use Dark Ritual on (since Snuff Out is free), so it doesn't seem worth it to remove anything for it.

Honestly though, I'm not convinced that Bloodchief Ascension is even worth it. It has a great manacost, but it requires 3 opponent end steps to finally be active (essentially your turn 5, if you cast it during turn 1). If you drop it turn 1, it's decent. If you drop it later than that, the deck would simply be better of running a big creature or some more disruption instead.

Realizing that Bloodchief Ascension is less viable than other options for your particular strategy, they'd come out for Dark Ritual's, which make the deck far more explosive. At that point, there's little benefit from running Grim Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt over options in black. Staying straight B/G Eva Green style ends up being the best route in the end, since Nantuko Shade and Maelstrom Pulse are both more powerful than Grim Lavamancer and Lightning Bolt, straight B/G has a more stable manabase, and it abuses Dark Ritual better. Bloodchief Ascension, once activated, gives the deck some strong lasting power, but the archetype itself already does a great job of doing the necessary damage to win (i.e it has a slower clock than something like R/g/w Zoo or Naya Sligh, but packs more disruption and doesn't gas out as much in the mid-late game).

What I'm getting at is, that if you want to play an aggressive black based aggro/control deck, once you continually tune it over and over, you end right back up with B/G Eva Green as the most optimal version.

That's just my opinion. I'm sure Bloodchief Ascension makes for a fun deck, but overall I'd rather play the better deck. That's just me, though. I feel bad coming into these N&D threads from time to time and shooting down ideas like this, as I never mean to stifle innovation, but I'm just being a realist. I see this strategy either evolving into B/G Eva Green, or just never making it to Tier 2 or better. Sorry =[

[Mono_Thematic]

Blightning?
-Adds quest counters? check
-Puts cards in opponents GY? check
-Is strong w/o Bloodchief Ascension? check

[eq.firemind]

Honestly though, I'm not convinced that Bloodchief Ascension is even worth it. It has a great manacost, but it requires 3 opponent end steps to finally be active (essentially your turn 5, if you cast it during turn 1).
1) One more time:


At the beginning of each end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension.
2) There is a rise of tribal decks and Zoo, and burn is good against both.
That's why I choose burn over heavier removal like Maelstrom Pulse.


If you drop it turn 1, it's decent. If you drop it later than that, the deck would simply be better of running a big creature or some more disruption instead.
Again little wrong here.
If you have an attacker, you can drop Ancension, attack, leave :r: open, pass (1 charge), burn on opp's turn (2 charges), attack/burn (3 charges) and here you go.
If I have a Ritual and Ascention in opening 7-8, I better go turn 1 land, Ritual into creature(+ disruption/Top if dude costs 2 mana), turn 2 attack, land, leave :r: open, pass, burn on opp's turn.

@ Blightning:
I suggest it in my opening post. The problem: it is not very good on itself in Legacy. Tests will show.

[Nidd]

I would play Bloodghast and Smallpox. And when you're running Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy looks like a very good idea.

Smallpox is great disruption and is a bomb with a charged BCA.

[caenel]

I would play Bloodghast and Smallpox. And when you're running Bloodghast, Cabal Therapy looks like a very good idea.

Smallpox is great disruption and is a bomb with a charged BCA.
Nidd, my friend, you blew my head off :smile: I love playing poxlike aggro and suddenly it all comes together :cool:

Thank you

I might be trying this one out, something like a BR aggro-poxless shell like this:

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Bloodchief Ascension
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Bloodghast
4 Tombstalker

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mountain
3 Swamp

The deck should work like a regular fast aggro-disruption deck, where Bloodchief Ascension works like icing on the cake. You can power it up in 2 turns with Lavamancer/Bolt/Jet on the opponents turns and when it sticks, all your spells are golden (especially Smallpox, as Nid already stated... Smallpox gives you: -1 land both, -1 handcard both, -1 creature both, -1 life both, -6 life opponent, +6 life for you).
You have a strong land disruption suit in 4 x Wasteland/4 x Sinkhole/4 x Smallpox, combined with hand disruption (4 x Hymn/2 x Thoughtseize/2 x Duress/4 x Smallpox), burn (4 x Bolt/3 x Jet/4 x Lavamancer) and good aggro hitters (4 x Bloodghast/4 x Tombstalker).
The Magma Jet still is uncertain for me though. For the moment, I like them because they a) can take out creatures, b) power up Ascension and c) fix my next draws a bit.

What do you guys think? Be honest :tongue:

[eq.firemind]

I don't like the direction (I prefer aggro style when playing decks with burn), I'm not sure if Bloodghast is good (he is still 2/1 for 2 mana) and IMHO 4 Tombstalkers+4 Lavamancers are too much for your graveyard but...
It might work out. If so, please let me know.

Sidenote: Bloodghast is perfect meat for cards like Scarscale Ritual of Reckless Abandon.

Also, Bloody Pox is great name for a deck!

[Hanni]

1) One more time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
At the beginning of each end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension.


Learn to read, I guess. It's a new card, I skimmed it over quickly, and didn't really examine it in great detail. Nooblar mistake on my end, my bad.

I still stand behind the fact that it is slow and conditional, even if the deck is built to take advantage of it, and simply running more consistent big guys and efficient removal, with a solid disruption package, is the stronger approach for black aggro/control decks like this. B/G Eva Green just applies its strategy so well that I don't think a new card like Bloodchief Ascension is going to be better than [almost] broken spells like Tarmogoyf.


2) There is a rise of tribal decks and Zoo, and burn is good against both.
That's why I choose burn over heavier removal like Maelstrom Pulse.


Aside from the aggro decks that are running a large amount of burn, which B/G Eva Green has a bad time against (because of Putrid Leech, Thoughtseize, and Snuff Out), B/G Eva Green outclasses other creature decks by running creatures that come out nearly as fast and are significantly larger. A few Kird Apes tend to pale in comparison to guys like Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. Tarmogoyf is just as good as anti-aggro as burn (on defense). It's a little slower at dealing damage, but does more damage per mana investment. Burn may be good at answering aggro not named Tarmogoyf, but aside from the life loss of Snuff Out (which I realize is relevant against decks with large amounts of burn), Snuff Out answers those creatures the same way. Except rather than burn the blocker to swing with a Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, or Hypnotic Specter, B/G Eva Green is hitting the same creature with Snuff out and then swinging with a Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. That's strategy is just more aggressive, and takes better advantage of the tempo/speed loss of running disruption in a lower-curved aggressive deck.

Put it this way. B/G Eva Green has a hard time against decks like R/g/w Naya Sligh because of the large burn count. Similarly, the only way I see Bloodchief Ascension truly being good is in a R/g/b Sligh deck. Basically, you drop the Wild Nacatl's for Bloodchief Ascensions, and there you go. However, do you believe that Bloodchief Ascension is as fast of a clock as R/g/w Naya Sligh (Wild Nacatl can do 6 damage by turn 3)? Do you think the lifegain is a relevant ability in such an aggressive deck as Sligh? Do you think that mixing disruption into R/g/b Sligh is going to improve the fundamental gameplan and matchups that Sligh currently experiences? Currently I am unconvinced; the strength of R/g/w Naya Sligh comes from its potential turn 3 clock, where running disruption or a slower aggressive card like Bloodchief Ascension makes no sense. Obviously, if you have Bloodchief Ascension out and then draw disruption, it's going to be an equivilant clock. My point is that disruption is typically best when played first, disruption without Bloodchief Ascension tends to contradict Sligh's gameplan, and Bloodchief without disruption is going to be a waste of a spell.

(When I say disruption, I mean Wasteland/Sinkhole and Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach, or maybe Cabal Therapy).

Basically, a black aggro/control shell doesn't suit Bloodchief Ascensions nature, and a black splashed Sligh deck doesn't suit Bloodchief Ascensions nature either. Blending the two to mix a hybrid seems to dilute the strategy of either concept, since they are effective by being so heavily focused on their respective gameplans. I guess the question is whether or not Bloodchief itself is strong enough for a blended strategy to be effective, and whether or not the deck falls apart if it doesn't see an equal blend of disruption, aggression, and Bloodchief Ascension (especially if they deck doesn't draw into Bloodchief Ascension). I'm not convinced that it's an effective strategy to blend the two, Bloodchief Ascension or not.

Maelstrom Pulse is slow, but is a catch all answer; it gets rid of otherwise impossible things to answer, like Counterbalance, opposing Tarmogoyf's and Tombstalker's, so on and so forth. Terminate is only slightly faster and less clunky than Maelstrom Pulse, but is alot less versatile. Since B/G Eva Green is already blazingly fast (keeping in mind Dark Ritual, too), I'd opt for power in that case.

Access to Pernicious Deeds in the sideboard shores up many of the aggro matchups anyway (aside from the ones with massive amounts of burn). In fact, simply swapping the sideboard Deeds in place of the maindeck Pulses is always an option. Deed > Burn against swarm aggro in a black aggro/control deck, whereas Burn > Deed against swarm aggro in a red aggro deck. Regardless, Deed > Burn against any kind of aggro that isn't swarm aggro.


Again little wrong here.
If you have an attacker, you can drop Ancension, attack, leave open, pass (1 charge), burn on opp's turn (2 charges), attack/burn (3 charges) and here you go.
If I have a Ritual and Ascention in opening 7-8, I better go turn 1 land, Ritual into creature(+ disruption/Top if dude costs 2 mana), turn 2 attack, land, leave open, pass, burn on opp's turn.


Again, I read the card wrong and thought it was only triggered on the opponent's end step. I accept the mistake. Either way, it's still conditonal upon you being able to actually do damage, and then being able to actually get the opponent's cards in the graveyard after its activated. Even in a deck that's designed to do both of those things, it just seems less efficient than just running a deck chock full of extremely cost effecient big ass creatures if you're going to be wasting spell slots on disruption. R/g/w Naya Sligh is effective because it doesn't gas itself out by diluting the deck with disruption. B/G Eva Green can afford to dilute the deck with disruption because it's threats are strong enough alone to go the distance. A Tombstalker is going to do more damage every turn, on average, than Bloodchief Ascension.

However, I will attempt to try a R/g/b Dark Sligh deck for arguments sake. Maybe something along the lines of Bloodchief Ascension, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, and the rest of the R/g Goyf Sligh shell. Snuff Out's and Firespout's would replace the current Path to Exile's in the sideboard. This variation might have merit, and if so, that's the direction I'd recommend that you go with this deck if you have any hope of making it successful. I could see this variation improving some matchups, since the discard can hit Chalice, Trinisphere, and Counterbalance. It won't lose too much in the control matchups since discard isn't bad there, and this does improve the combo matchup. The problem is that it dilutes its fantastic aggro matchup, which seems to be what our current metagame is infested with. Guess that's what the Snuff Out's and Firespout's would be for...

For reference:

R/g/w Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [B] Taiga
2 [A] Plateau
1 [U] Savannah
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)
1 [8E] Forest (3)

// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DLM] Incinerate
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

So let's drop Wild Nacatl for Bloodchief Ascension, straight up. We obviously have to cut the burn count a little, so let's first drop the worst burn spell in the deck, which is Incinerate. That's going to fit the Thoughtseizes. Then, I'd probably want to drop sorcery speed burn, since they only damage the opponent on my turn. Not sure if Rift Bolt's the right cut, since it has built in resiliency to Counterbalance/Chalice. That leaves Chain Lightning, which is supposed to be a fundamental burn spell for this archetype. Guess that's the best cut, though. Cut the Chain Lightnings for Cabal Therapy/Duress (Hymn is simply going to be too slow). Now, the deck has to replace its loss of burn with a larger creature that can make up for the gas. With Bloodchief out, Thoughtseize/Duress become Shocks. Without it, you'll gas. Tombstalker will be too difficult to cast with his BB mana cost, the fact that he's likely not going to come into play until turn 3 is too slow, and the fact that he eats away cards for Grim Lavamancer is counterproductive. Putrid Leech seems to be the most logical option, but it's dependance on two off colors seems risky. I guess it's gotta be that way, though. If the manabase is required to become more offcolor centric, Price of Progress is probably worth cutting, so that's where we can fit them. So this is what I end up with, for a rough draft:

R/b/g Bloodchief Sligh

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Badlands
3 [R] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou
2 [ST] Mountain (3)
1 [4E] Swamp (3)
1 [5E] Forest (1)

// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Putrid Leech

// Spells
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [FNM] Fireblast
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [MM] Snuff Out

The thing I like most about going this route is that you don't need discard for the opponent to get cards put into their graveyard; they can do that themselves. Focusing on a higher burn count (especially instant speed) accelerates Bloodchief Ascension more consistently, which makes it relevant sooner. I can see Bloodchief Ascension become active after my turn 2 end step (during an opponent's turn 3), effectively shutting down certain decks that require having cards go to their graveyard (cantrips, countermagic, Loam-based decks, Stax decks, etc). If this deck truly does improve the Counterbalance and Chalice matchups without sacrificing too much of R/g/w Naya Sligh's great matchups, then I was completely wrong in my estimation of the cards strength [Bloodchief Ascension], and I'll gladly admit that I was wrong if that's proven to be the case.

I'm still skeptical about this idea, though. I really dislike how low the burn count is for this sort of aggressive strategy, though. Bloodchief Ascension also replaces Wild Nacatl, which yields a huge damage per investment ratio (typically 1 mana for 6 damage), so I'm still skeptical. The biggest problem I see is the deck not having lasting strength without Bloodchief Ascension when it draws discard early on. I can't see myself diluting the deck anymore with things like Sylvan Library, either. If Putrid Leech isn't enough to give the deck enough gas when it doesn't see Bloodchief Ascension, I'm going to have to find a stronger replacement.

Anyways, the slightly weaker manabase is necessary to support the increase in non-red spells. The reason for Cabal Therapy instead of Duress is for a few reasons. First of all, it has flashback, so you can try to use its effect early, and then flash it back later once Bloodchief Ascension is in play for a possible Shock effect. Secondly, it's far more explosive than Duress, especially in combination with Thoughtseize and a creature to sacrifice. Thirdly, and related to the explosiveness, it can discard multiple spells out of the opponent's hand between the initial cast and flashback cast, allowing it to do more damage than Duress with Bloodchief Ascension. It's not as consistent as Duress... but I think, given the fact that this deck has already sacrificed explosiveness to splash black, discard, and Bloodchief Ascension... that it desperately needs the explosiveness.

Whether or not 14 creatures is enough to support Cabal Therapy, I'm not sure. Sacrificing a Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, or Putrid Leech shouldn't matter much if you actually need to sac one (otherwise, you're not flashing back Cabal Therapy).

Magma Jet is crucial for the deck's smoothness, given the fact that discard effects are a horrible topdeck later on, and this deck desperately wants to topdeck burn at that point of the game.

Adding the discard package in definitely slows the clock down. R/g/w Naya Sligh has a turn 3-4 clock, this deck has a turn 4-5 clock.

Price of Progress in the sideboard is great to come in against decks with lots of nonbasics, regardless of our own manabase. Vexing Shusher is the decks best answer to a resolved Counterbalance or Chalice. Krosan Grip helps answer other problematic artifact/enchantment randomness (like Jitte). Firespout improves the small swarm aggro matchups, since going the Dark Sligh route weakens those matchups, while Snuff Out is an answer for big aggro like Phyrexian Dreadnought and Tarmogoyf.

That's the only shell I see Bloodchief Ascension being viable in. Whether or not you understand my logic with this whole thing, who knows. I just want you to keep in mind that I was never bashing any specific person, just the concept of the card. Without testing it, I cannot really determine if it's an improvement or step backwards for the general archetype without having playtested it. Good luck in your pursuit to make Bloodchief Ascension viable, though.

Oh, and I still agree that the black aggro/control route is the absolute wrong route for Bloodchief Ascension. That concept is better left to B/G Eva Green. Team America is more of a Tempo Thresh design, that's not really the same kind of black aggro/control. Sligh is going to be the best shell for Bloodchief Ascension, IMO, and I guess testing is the only way to prove if Bloodchief Ascension-fueled Sligh is any good or not.

Well, alot of time spent on a long post when I should have left for work. Oh well, I got caught up in the moment.

[Nidd]

If you're interested in focusing more on that whole sacrificial lamb thing, Nether Traitor is here for you all. He is only 1/1 though, but has Haste and Shadow and recurs like a whore.
Awesome synergy with Smokestack and other sacrifice-something cards.
Skulltap, Diabolic Intent, Culling the Weak, Attrition...

There are some great cards for a deck like that.
But: Is the synergy strong enough to overcome big badasses, hand- and grave-disruption and, finally, fast beatdown?

Diabolic Intent is a tutor, which can tutor up anything you ever need.
And I don't know whether there is another B creature that carries Swords as good as Nether Traitor.

[Hanni]

Not sure why this idea has captivated me. I guess it's because I love R/G/w Naya Sligh, and this deck is somewhat similar.

A few observations from testing the deck:

The deck gas's way too quickly. I knew that was going to happen, but I'm trying to figure out how to fix it. I can never seem to get my opponent low enough in life before I run out of creatures in play and spells in hand. Huge bummer.

I've very rarely had Bloodchief be successful. Usually, I either have problems growing it to 3 counters, or I have problems getting the opponent's cards into the graveyard when it does.

I think there were three reasons why I had these issues, aside from probably getting paired about against some difficult matchups.

1) Putrid Leech is too slow. I wanted him to help me not run out of steam, but he was just to slow in here. He comes down turn 2 at the earliest, so he's swinging turn 3 the earliest. That's just too slow for Sligh, regardless if he can pump to 4/4. My curve was too high with Putrid Leech. 1cc creatures are really the bread and butter of Sligh. They make the curve so much smoother, allowing you to play a guy turn 1 and starting swinging turn 2 (turn 1 and turn 1 in Goblin Guide's case). Not only that, but Putrid Leech was just extra strain on my manabase.

2) 1cc spells in general are the bread and butter of Sligh, allowing you to have a turn 1 play, and allowing you to be able to play two spells on turn 2.

3) I wasn't running enough burn. Burn is the cornerstone of how the deck operates. Both by directly hitting the opponent to establish the 3 counters for Bloodchief as quickly as possible, as well as removing creatures after Bloodchief has 3 counters so that they go to the graveyard. It takes a bit of investment to get Bloodchief going, but once it's established, it makes burning blockers and casting discard double over as Shock's to the opponent's dome. Pretty good double purpose, and the deck should be doing damage to the opponent every turn anyway.

4) Not only that, but instant speed burn is invaluable. Creatures can attack on my turn, but the only way to reliable damage the opponent on their turn is with instant speed burn. Rift Bolt is a necessary evil to dodge Chalice and Counterbalance, but even then, I'm still highly considering switching to to *gasp* Incinerate.

5) With my current manabase offering less red sources than my standard R/G/w Naya Sligh, I often found myself being unable to cast Fireblasts. Not only that, but I often wanted Fireblast to hit the opponent earlier than the kill to get counters on Bloodchief or to kill creatures so I could get the +2/-2 effect, which was really contradicting to Fireblasts's actual niche. 4 Fireblasts were simply too many.

5) As I predicted, aggro was a difficult matchup, which is a direct contrast to R/G/w Naya Sligh (Naya has amazing aggro matchups). I wish I could go 4c and splash white for Wild Nacatl, but that's not going to realistically work. Instead, what I did was Volcanic Fallout to the maindeck. Volcanic Fallout helps tremendously against aggro, while at the same time deals the 2 damage to the opponent, at instant speed no less. Uncounterability is just icing on the cake.

6) Volcanic Fallout is sick, since not only does it help me to establish a counter for Bloodchief, during my opponent's turn, it also mass sweeps my opponent's board once Bloodchief has enough counters. Volcanic Fallout + Bloodchief against aggro turns the tide of the game so hard that it isn't funny; they lose their guys, they lose alot of life, and you gain alot of life.

7) Volcanic Fallout clashes with both my Grim Lavamancer's and my Goblin Guides, so I added 2 Kird Ape to the mix. Kird Ape isn't the greatest aggro creature ever, but he dodges Volcanic Fallout with his 2/3 body.

The current list I'm testing now:

R/B/g Bloodchief Sligh

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Badlands
3 [R] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou
2 [ST] Mountain (3)
1 [4E] Swamp (3)
1 [5E] Forest (1)

// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Bloodchief Ascension
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DD2] Incinerate
3 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
2 [FNM] Fireblast
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 [MM] Snuff Out
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

---

The MD curve:

24 1cc spells.
12 2cc spells.
3 3cc spells.
2 0cc/6cc spells.

The MD colorbase:

29 red spells.
8 black spells.
4/6 green spells.

It's getting a little more stable. -1 Volcanic Fallout for +1 Kird Ape (or +1 Grim Lavamancer) is also a possibility.

---

I just wanted to say a few more things.

1) 7 discard spells is just too much in a deck like Sligh. You gas yourself out far too often by drawing multiple discard spells. 4 Thoughtseize is more than enough. They are a solid t1 play to figure out what the opponent is playing and grab their best card, and a solid play once you have Bloodchief functional:

Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. That player loses 2 life.

2) Incinerate's are actually pretty good. I hate getting them snared, but being an instant is just so valuable with Bloodchief, and there's nothing situational about Incinerate. It's versatility of answering either creatures, or damaging the opponent, is also invaluable. Very good spell in this deck. I want the full 4.

3) Volcanic Fallout is great. It just seriously screws up so many decks in the format that it's not even funny. Instant, damages both opponent's and creatures, perfect for this deck. I've decided to maindeck 3, sideboard 1.

4) Since I had the extra space in the sideboard, I went up to the full 4 Price of Progress, because that card is just game over against some matchups.

5) 5 Fireblast feels perfect. I've been a huge advocator of 4 in R/G/w Naya Sligh for a long time, but you really don't want any more than 2 in this particular version. That might slow the clock of the deck down some, but it maintains higher consistency.

I'll edit my decklist above to what it NOW is currently.

[Vacrix]

@Hanni: i like your list a lot, but i think you were right in saying that bloodchief really isnt on par with nacatl. its just overkill in this version because there is no reliable way to draw into it early. i was thinking more of a control build.

win/con
4 Bloodchief Ascension
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Isochron Scepter

burn/removal:
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

creatures:
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Tombstalker

land:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plateau
2 Badlands
2 Scrublands
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Plains

SB:
4 Orim's Chant
3 Bitterblossum
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Silence
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Oblivion Ring


i think everyone has been underestimating the power of bloodchief ascension in general. if it comes down and is active then you are in the clear against quite a few decks. if storm hasnt combo'd off then they basically cant. same with dredge. the only thing is, how can it get online quickly and efficiently? right now i kinda just geared the deck to beat aggro. the idea is to play out ascension as fast as possible and then gain control of the board with removal. grim lavamancer seems pretty decent at getting 2 damage in. i'm a big fan of enlightened tutor in general. it can fetch o-ring, bloodchief ascension, or isochron scepter to basically seal game 1 against most aggro. the combo matchup would suck game 1, moving to game 2/3 you get more scepter and chant/silence to slow them down until you get ascension online. against control you have 8 discard but you have a pretty mediocre game 1. come game 2/3, you get bitterblossum with the plan of dropping it backed with some discard, maybe use a shusher to get BB into play. pithing needle probably fits into the board too.

this list in general is pretty weak right now, but in general i think its a start toward using bloodchief more effectively than just an accompaniment to sligh. keep in mind that a counter can come on at the end of each end step, so it can be active turn 3 if we add lotus petal or chrome mox into the mix.

[Nidd]

The problem with your list is, that you rely on BCA. What do you do when your opponent just kills them? try to play a bad burn deck?
And I don't even think Tombstalker is a good plan. First off, he gets in the way with Grim Lavamancer. Then, your opponent's hand will be full of creature removal, because you don't really have any targets.

Maybe it's doable with an Ichorid-like Shell.

Grim Lavamancer, Bloodghast, Nether Traitor and some form of dredge/milling yourself.
The only problem would be what to do if you mill BCA, instead of drawing it. Maybe go beatdown with Bloodghasts and Nether Traitors and burn them with Grim Lavamancer.
Then again, that list would need some discard outlet (Zombie Infestation, Putrid Imp), dredgers (Golgari Grave Troll, Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Thug), some "normal" creatures (Bloodghast, Lavamancer and Traitor), our card-to-break (BCA) and some draw to speed up the dredging process (Skulltap, Night's Whisper).
And tadaa, the list is too long. And we would play Red only for Lavamancer.

I think my idea has potential, but I don't know how to exploit this. Maybe you got some ideas?

[Hanni]

@Hanni: i like your list a lot, but i think you were right in saying that bloodchief really isnt on par with nacatl. its just overkill in this version because there is no reliable way to draw into it early. i was thinking more of a control build.

I was very sleep deprived earlier when I tried to accomodate Bloodchief. That's why my explanations are so sporadic and change every other paragraph. It's very simple to accomodate Bloodchief, and it doesn't need to be that complicated. The most recent decklist that I posted earlier is far from optimal. Simply going back to the roots, taking my highly optimized R/G/w Naya Sligh deck, and only making a few modifications, is the best way to go. 4/3 Thoughtseize/Therapy, for example, was just horrible.

I think that a B/r Red Death shell is horrible for Bloodchief. The best applications for it are in R/b Burn and R/B/g Sligh. Ramping up counters ASAP with Bloodchief is the only way for it to not suck, especially if you don't have it in your opener, and the deck doesn't need land destruction or discard for Bloodchief to be good once it hits 3 counters. The opponent will likely need to put cards into their own graveyards regardless, and running the majority of spells as burn is simply the best route for ramping counters and killing the opponent in a relevant timeframe. Burn can kill the opponent's creatures, which trigger Bloodchief all the same as discard or land destruction does.

The question is not how to use Bloodchief. The question is whether or not it makes Burn and Sligh better than their current versions.

In Sligh, Bloodchief is a replacement for Wild Nacatl. They compete for the same spot. Bloodcheif changes the decks fundamental gameplan into a slower, more resilient deck. Whether or not that is a step forward or a step backward for the Sligh is something that warrants testing.

I'll be creating a new thread for black splash Sligh soon, to discuss this particular archetype in more detail.