UW NinjaFish knows about Elspeth

[Dormant Seer]

Hello, all,

I've been toying with UW fish for some time, now, and am moderately satisfied with my current list.
UW fish is notoriously underpowered and my main objective is to make it a fair contender against agressive decks such as Zoo, Merfolk and more tempo decks such as Threshold and Eva Green.
I suppose many people have already tried this, but I couldn't find an appropriate thread to post my list. Please, feel free to share your experience, provided you have any.

Ninja of the Deep Hours is the main draw engine, backed up by Faeries with CIP effects (Cloud of Faeries, Spellstutter Sprite).
The mana curve extends up to 4 mana to catch Elspeth, Knight Errant, which gives evasion to a ninja and a nice power jump to end the game quickly.

Here is the list (in progress) :

Mana (21) :
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mutavault
2 Wasteland
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains

Creatures (18) :
3 Mother of Runes
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Spells (21) :
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (15) :
4 Meddling Mage
3 Stifle
3 Serenity
3 Rushing River
2 Jotun Grunt


The maindeck still being unrefined, the sideboard is obviously rough. Please, bear with me.
The creatures are mainly selected for their evasion capabilities. CIP effects and Flash are welcome.
The spell selection draws upon staples (Fow, Swords, BStorm, Jitte) + Standstill, nice with Ninjas and Manlands + Elspeth, game ender.
Aether Vial has been in and out. I'd like to run more creatures to support it but it leads to leaving out essential spells. Running too many creatures also creates difficulties with sideboarding options.

Cons. To my eyes, the deck lacks :
- Sound 1 drops. Weathered Wayfarer and Mother of Runes are ok but seldom overwhelming. Though, early creatures are a necessity to fight aggro and enhance the Ninja.
- Early mana. Activated abilities are very mana hungry. Chrome Mox is definitely an option, but then you would deplete your hand super fast, making you a) more dependent upon a good starting hand ; b) more vulnerable to discard.
- All around answers. Maybe some bounce should be maindecked ? (Rushing River and/or Dismantling Blow have my attention).
- Low-costed fat. Jotun Grunt looks cool but the high amount of permanents would prevent from paying the upkeep very long.
- Means to truly reverse the tide. Sower of Temptation has been tried but wasn't so impressive.


Feel free to leave any criticism, but it would be great if they were surrounded with decent argumentation, or even well timed suggestions !

[yankeedave]

How about Flying Men as an early evasive Ninja target?

Dave

[Dormant Seer]

Flying Men is a dead draw really fast, which bothers me. Although it probably belongs in a mono-U build with Ornithopter and more ninjas (there are only 4, here ; there is no guarantee you'll have one in your opening 7), I believe that it is too weak, here.
On a sidenote, Zephyr Sprite is the same as Flying Men, with added synergy with Spellstutter Sprite due to the Faerie type.
I believe that Mother of Runes/Weathered Wayfarer are better, since they provide utility as well as an early beater/blocker.

Weathered Wayfarer ensures your land drops against control and gives you easy access to Wasteland/Mutavault.
Mother of Runes (the alternative, better against Zoo) makes your dudes dodge removal, go to contact safely, or evade the opponent's defense.

[Hanni]

You need 4 Mother of Runes, seriously.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm a little confused about the lack of Aether Vial... I haven't tested UW Fish much (at least in a long time) but I thought it was usually auto-include. Care to elaborate?

[Dormant Seer]

You need 4 Mother of Runes, seriously.
I'll trust you.
Weathered Wayfarer is a remnant of experiments with Flagstones of Trokair & Maze of Ith, which it didn't prove that concluding.
Any idea what could be cut to fit in the 4th Mother of Runes ? I'm thinking about a Cloud of Faeries, maybe a Vendilion Clique or a Jitte.
I'll do the 3/3 swap right now.


I'm a little confused about the lack of Aether Vial... I haven't tested UW Fish much (at least in a long time) but I thought it was usually auto-include. Care to elaborate?
You're right to bring this up. Thanks.

As a matter of fact, I can elaborate but I may have made the wrong decisions.
I'm still willing to consider Aether Vial. I drifted to this UW build after experimenting with various Aether Vial builds (going from Nether Void to Phyrexian Dreadnought to Vesuvan Shapeshifter (Vial 1st turn, kill their Progenitus for 1U, copy your 'Nought or their Goyf, "allows" the Pickles lock... Cute ! :tongue: ), if you wanna know).

As briefly stated in the opening post, I fear that Vial would either mean :
- A reduction of the creature base ; but then I'll be unsure I run enough creatures to enable Ninjutsu while benefitting from Vial. With only 14 classic creatures, I already feel I'm on the low side with regards to the creature base.
- A reduction of the spells ; I'd be tempted to replace Brainstorm with 3 Vials and a Standstill but this is bad for early game consistency. Brainstorm is also a choice card to pitch to FoW lategame whereas you can't pitch late Vials.
- Final cons is that Aether Vial is very susceptible to Pithing Needle shutdown or Krosan Grip. Fearing hate, however common it is, is not a really good reason not to run it, though (if hate is brought to answer Vial, it is a sign of its usefulness).

With regards to this, you're right that Vial has a few enormous advantages.
- It is an awesome mana cheat. It works especially well with Cloud of Faeries and Spellstutter Sprite, not to mention you can now Ninjutsu without caring too much about having open mana or not.
- It also allows to run 1-2 less lands and colored mana becomes less of a concern.This somewhat cancels cons n°1&2.

The absence of Vial also questions the presence of Cloud of Faeries. Maybe it is not worth the slots in this configuration.
Its presence, though, may justify the replacement of some/all of the Jitte and one Elspeth at most with 2cmc dudes.
I'll try this for now :
-2 Wasteland
-3 Jitte
+3 Vial
+2 Jotun Grunt

-1 Elspeth ; +1 Grunt will be tested afterwards.
(Or would there be a more appropriate choice than Grunt ?)


Thanks a lot for your feedback, it keeps my thoughts going !
Do not hesitate to bring some more !

[Maveric78f]

Mimeomancer and mother of runes seem better than the faerie team. Standstill looks weak too with no vial. Spellsnare is a good protection as well as daze, and the new stp is combo with wayfarer. To finish, burrenton forge tender is amust have in sb of such deck with weenies.

[Dormant Seer]

Mimeomancer and mother of runes seem better than the faerie team. Standstill looks weak too with no vial. Spellsnare is a good protection as well as daze, and the new stp is combo with wayfarer. To finish, burrenton forge tender is amust have in sb of such deck with weenies.

Aven Mimeomancer is a card I had not considered at all...
It looks interesting, giving evasion to Ninjas and an agressive body to the many 1/1s. Mana curve says it could replace Vendilion Clique.
I will give a read to the "Urw Fish Feat. by Mimeomancer" thread : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14469

How do you feel it could/should be integrated, with regards to :
- the other power boosts of the deck (Jitte and Elspeth). Too much redundoncy on this aspect seems like... too much.
- the temporary aspect of the effect. If Mimeomancer dies, I understand that casting another one will have no immediate effect on the creatures left with a feather counter. From your post I understand you would bring in more permission.
I'd rather be tempted to use it as a bait and support creature. He that shall die, let him die. This may open some good moves for the opponent, though, like killing Mimeomancer before blocking would-be-flying ninjas...


Path to Exile + Weathered Wayfarer is something I had not envisionned either.
Interesting ! Would you use a land toolbox ?
City of Traitors, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, dunno...

And I'll remember your suggestion about SB Burrenton Forge-Tender.


Now I'll have to revise the entire deck and see what it can give. I knew I should not have posted my list :tongue:
Thanks a lot for the suggestions !

[Mono_Thematic]

Writ of passage gives ninjas evasion w/o card commitment (tho mana commitment) or fear of counters

[Maveric78f]

Even with mimeomancer out of the field, the creatures with feathers are still3/1 fliers. The mimeo ability is also a great way to deal with tarmogoyfs or other beaters that don't use counters like crusher or boosts like mongrel.

[rancOr_]

I wouldn't add one drop creaures,since ur main goal and draw engine is the ninja. U have 4cloud of fearies/4spellstutter sprite/manland for that.
Vial is really THAT good in decks like this,its another one drop together with brainstorm eot/(plow),so if u include vial u dont need 1mana costed bad topdeck creatures. (-3Wayfarer,+3vial)Vial also combo's very well with sprite/clique and even sower of temptation if ud play it main or side.
The rest of the list seems pretty nice so far,but 3jitte is too much,2 is better.

[Dormant Seer]

Writ of passage gives ninjas evasion w/o card commitment (tho mana commitment) or fear of counters
It seems to me that mana committment, repeated turn after turn, is more important than card committment or fear of counters. Thus, Writ of passage can cripple the deck's development.
I'd rather use Elspeth's 1st ability or Mother of Runes to break through defense. Although they cost more to cast, Aven Mimeomancer or Higure, the Still Wind can fulfill the same purpose with some extra general utility.
Up till now, having a ninja going to contact with the opponent has seldom been a difficulty.
Thanks, regardless, for the proposition.


Even with mimeomancer out of the field, the creatures with feathers are still3/1 fliers. The mimeo ability is also a great way to deal with tarmogoyfs or other beaters that don't use counters like crusher or boosts like mongrel.
This is great news ! Thanks !
I'm thinking Mimeomancer doesn't go so well along with Jotun Grunt, which doesn't need the power boost but may go super well along with Higure, the Still Wind, providing you with constant targets for feather counters.
Just thinking...
Replacing the 8 2cc Faeries with some MD Jotun Grunts and Meddling Mages probably also deserve the test, but then I'll be more worried about evasion. It will probably remain a simple thought.


I wouldn't add one drop creaures,since ur main goal and draw engine is the ninja. U have 4cloud of fearies/4spellstutter sprite/manland for that.
Vial is really THAT good in decks like this,its another one drop together with brainstorm eot/(plow),so if u include vial u dont need 1mana costed bad topdeck creatures. (-3Wayfarer,+3vial)Vial also combo's very well with sprite/clique and even sower of temptation if ud play it main or side.
The rest of the list seems pretty nice so far,but 3jitte is too much,2 is better.
Thanks.
As a matter of fact, 3-4 Mother of Runes + 3-4 Weathered Wayfarer just don't seem to work. It makes the deck too weak. WW probably doesn't have its place here.
Vial is cool. The only problem I have is : I've removed 3 lands to add 3 Vials... :tongue: Now, if I don't draw into Standstill / Ninja / Brainstorm (it's rare but it happens), I tend to get stuck below 4 mana, which proves frustrating with Elspeth in hand.
Maybe 18 lands and 3 Vials isn't enough and I should go back to 19 lands. But then, Vial takes slots from business spells / creatures. A problem to solve, to my eyes. Maybe add a singleton Ponder rather than a land...

About Sower of Temptation, I do not think I run enough permission for it to be worth it.
2 Jitte maindeck, maybe... +2 SB since it is such a common artifact ?

[Gui]

I fell like you have some really agressive cards, some really protective cards, and a loose strategy that depends on the card draws...
imho, you should try to stick to one side of the strategy, which is aggro control with focus on aggro, or aggro-control with focus on control.
Mother of runes, Standstill, Manlands, Ninja draws, counters and Elseph are control, while Aether Vial and Jitte are aggro.

As you said: "my main objective is to make it a fair contender against agressive decks such as Zoo, Merfolk and more tempo decks such as Threshold and Eva Green"

My opinion: The best way to do that is being Aggressive and have aggro-hate. Ninja is not what I call aggresive, but under standstill, the plan is nice. imho, go 4 Vial + 2~3 Jitte and 4 MoR, and cut Elseph. You should be willing to play standstill as fast as you u can against aggro, so play 4 of it. If you got a creature on table and they don't, ninja's jitsu will be an advantage for you latter under ss. If this plan fails, you can still go for a jitte, which is broken against aggro.

Don't go too much towards control, it's bad for your main objective, which is a fairly good objective. Sure, use FoW and Swords, but not much more than that.

Also, you should play FoW as a protection to your SS mainly.

[Hanni]

You do not need Weathered Wayfarer, that guy is ass. If you want to hit more land drops, run more land or more cantrips. 4 Mother of Runes is mandatory for you, especially if you want to draw cards with Ninja.

3/3 Elspeth/Jitte is too many. That's 6 cards that demand 4 mana investment. A 2/2 split will serve you well, especially when you rarely want to draw multiples of either.

Honestly though, I just don't see U/W Fish being very competitive these days. Too outclassed by everything else.

[Dormant Seer]

I fell like you have some really agressive cards, some really protective cards, and a loose strategy that depends on the card draws...
imho, you should try to stick to one side of the strategy, which is aggro control with focus on aggro, or aggro-control with focus on control.
Mother of runes, Standstill, Manlands, Ninja draws, counters and Elseph are control, while Aether Vial and Jitte are aggro.

As you said: "my main objective is to make it a fair contender against agressive decks such as Zoo, Merfolk and more tempo decks such as Threshold and Eva Green"

My opinion: The best way to do that is being Aggressive and have aggro-hate. Ninja is not what I call aggresive, but under standstill, the plan is nice. imho, go 4 Vial + 2~3 Jitte and 4 MoR, and cut Elseph. You should be willing to play standstill as fast as you u can against aggro, so play 4 of it. If you got a creature on table and they don't, ninja's jitsu will be an advantage for you latter under ss. If this plan fails, you can still go for a jitte, which is broken against aggro.

Don't go too much towards control, it's bad for your main objective, which is a fairly good objective. Sure, use FoW and Swords, but not much more than that.

Also, you should play FoW as a protection to your SS mainly.
I have read your post a few times and think I get what you mean...
UW obviously can't be as aggro as RGW Zoo, but being aggro + anti-aggro rather than aggro + loose control makes sense to me.
Part of the charm of UW precisely is that it can't be too aggro, even when it tries hard. The focus is spread between damage and card draw.

Would a MD list along the lines of the following be more concordant with what you think could be effective ?
Short testing proved okay, but there lacks a fine 2 drop creature that could be a 4 of.

Mana (18) :
6 Fetches
4 Tundra
4 Plains
4 Island

Creatures (23) :
- 1 drops (6-8) :
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mother of Runes
2 Mistblade Shinobi
- 2 drops (5-9) :
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Azorius Guildmage (dissatisfying, I guess, but the card needs be blue for FoW... Otherwise, Ethersworn Canonist looks like a fine MD option. Meddling Mage would be more usable, or even Voidmage Prodigy that can be vialed in with 0 counters)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
- 3 drops (6) :
3 Aven Mimeomancer (ends the game quickly, powerful in limited testing)
3 Augury Adept (won some games in testing thanks to the life buffer and extra draw. He's somewhere between Ninja and Jitte)

Spells (19) :
3 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Force of Will
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I know many of you insisted about 4 Aether Vial but this isn't made yet. I badly fear multiple Vials in my opening hand. Still, I will test 4.

[Gui]

I think you misunderstood my opinion about StandStill..

SS is nice anti-aggro, because as soon as you play it, you force them breaking SS to play their aggro. So, I think you should be willing to play 4 SS, 4 Vial, low 1cc creatures, and try to play them fast, go SS, and the use your ninja strategy better, which is great under SS since it comes to play without being cast.

Then, running a good amount of creatures making it aggro, and vial + ninja is great.

I don't think Elspeth is that great though. It's more like a backup plan for if the aggro-role didn't go well.

I would go meddling mage in the 2cc spot only because it's a great creature... but it'll demand some tests to know which is the better option.

3 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Force of Will
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

This seems ok, only lacking SS. Maybe no Brainstorm. And I personaly preffer no Elspeth. (I know that's the deck namesake, though...)

The plan under SS goes more smothly with 2~4 manlands, and maybe wastelands, but it'll be harder to fit in...