Thopter Foundy

[Stall_19]

I wonder if the extended Thopter deck could survive in legacy.

Here's a starting point.

// Lands
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [ARB] Time Sieve
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
1 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [ZEN] Into the Roil
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Krark-Clan Ironworks
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares

For those who don't know how the combo works. The idea is to get both Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek in play. Once they are both in play you can spend one colorless mana to sac sword to foundry making a 1/1 flying thopter token and gaining a life. Once the 1/1 token comes into play sword triggers from the graveyard, returning to to play equiped to the token. This allows you to repeat the possess for as many colorless mana you could afford. The cool thing about this combo is only thopter foundry needs to be in play to get it started as you could sac any noncreature artifact to bring sword from graveyard to play.

Suggestions, thoughts?

[Bigface]

Carnival of Souls instead of Sieve. That way you'll have infinite Thopter tokens to swing FTW. Also, you don't need 5 mana to use Foundry's ability over and over.

And add StP instead of Into the Roil. You don't want to lose to Tarmogoyf/Lackey/whatever else.

[Maveric78f]

Explosives are not so hot neither. I'd rather play only uw, with tops and balances. I also think that you shouldn't need a bad card to finish the game.

[hi-val]

What a cool combo! Have you thought about Black for Disciple of the Vault? You could possibly also cram Ravager into the deck as an alt-win. White is kind of unimpressive but I suppose Etutor is good at what it does. It would seem that just making Thopter tokens every turn is enough of a win, especially if you can Time Sieve once or twice.

[Digital Devil]

What about Ashnod's Altar? It allows a dumb infinite mana + infinite tokens + infinite life points combo:

Ashnod's Altar + Sword of the Meek + Thopter Foundry:

1) First, you need to generate a token.
2) Return Sword from your graveyard into play
3) Sacrifice the token with Altar, you have :2: mana
4) Use :1: to sacrifice Sword with Foundry. A token comes into play. Sword returns from your graveyard into play. You have :1: in pool.
5) Repeat the process as many times as you wish.

[mugs]

I've had this for a good bit of time, it works well and has been fun. But not any better than current counterbalance shells that are less vulnerable to hate. people were caught off guard early but after Pro tour Thopter Foundry was mostly known

Intuition turned out to be the best option to make it work consistently. The problem is it needs 5 mana a turn, and I often felt like i should just stick with a beat down dude like tarmogoyf and some utility. Testing on MSW is a pain with the: the "serious deck only" crowd disconnecting on sight of Thopter Foundry and the casual crowd disconnecting on sight of Counterbalance.


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME: "WTF" (whats thopter foundry?)

// Lands
6 [IA] Snow-Covered Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Tundra
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [US] Plains (1)

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [M10] Ponder
1 [MM] Misdirection
1 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [ARB] Time Sieve
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Scourglass
SB: 2 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 3 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge

[Maveric78f]

This combo is cool for sure but it dies to extirpate.

[umbowta]

This combo is cool for sure but it dies to extirpate.

And...dying to a card nobody plays is bad how?

[Shanghi Knights]

its kinda sad extirpate isn't played more.

but one could protect this combo with chalice of the void as none of the crucial pieces dip below 2. just a thought.

might be able to run transmute artifact with it. sword into play then transmute into foundry.

[Maveric78f]

And...dying to a card nobody plays is bad how?

Really? I know meddling Mage and chant can fix this problem but I would not gowith a deck that folds that hard against an encounterable card that costs 1 without a backup plan.

[Stall_19]

Really? I know meddling Mage and chant can fix this problem but I would not gowith a deck that folds that hard against an encounterable card that costs 1 without a backup plan.

Its not necessary to prepare for extirpate until people actually start using it. It's hardly played at all as people prefer relic or crypt as their graveyard hate.

[Vacrix]

ive always liked enlightened tutor. why was it cut in favor of intuition? enlightened tutor is great playing in response to discard cause it puts stuff on top, and it can search for pretty much anything you want, for W instead of 2U. the only disadvantage i can see is that you might miss a land drop because your target goes on top of your library. what are your intuition targets that makes it better?

if you run enlightened tutor you could pack more into the deck so you could drop CB and SDT to a 3/3 split. and if you run intuition then you can only search for 3 at a time anyway.

the other thing is you are going to lose to qualsi pridemage if it hits play. so i like spell snare in the mainboard amongst its other uses.

the other thing is, if you want an alternate win con, you could always add stifle/nought. stifle deals with pridemage. enlightened tutor can fetch it, so you could just have dreadnought as a 1 or 2 of to save space.

carnival of souls looks pretty legit, costing 2 mana and tutorable via e-tutor and not requiring 5 mana like time sieve. however, because this is control, you should be able to wait until you have 5 mana when you are going off anyway.

also, muddle the mixture is in the extended version of this deck both as a counter and a tutor. it can fetch CB too.


combo:
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's diving top
3 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
1 carnival of souls

search:
4 enlightened tutor
4 brainstorm

distruption:
4 muddle the mixture
4 force of will
3 spell snare
4 counterspell
2 planar collapse
1 engineered explosives
1 oblivion ring

37 spells

23 lands


planar collapse seems a little random i'm sure. its counting on the opponent over committing but its tutorable under muddle the mixture and enlightened tutor so i think its alright. it might work better with forbidden orchard.


thoughts?

[Willoe]

StifleNought seems like a good win condition if it can be fit in, of course. I'd like to see this deck become competitive in a Legacy environemt, it's really awesome!

And isn't Carnival of Souls a bit win-more? I know it's nice with infinite tokens, but hey..

If you have, like three mana or so to create Thopters each turn, you will eventually win for you will be able to chump the attacking Tarmogoyfs while you beat for two the first turn, four the next, six next turn and so forth until he is dead. Plus, you gain a lot of life. I can see problems against Progenitus though.

[Vacrix]

StifleNought seems like a good win condition if it can be fit in, of course. I'd like to see this deck become competitive in a Legacy environemt, it's really awesome!

And isn't Carnival of Souls a bit win-more? I know it's nice with infinite tokens, but hey..

If you have, like three mana or so to create Thopters each turn, you will eventually win for you will be able to chump the attacking Tarmogoyfs while you beat for two the first turn, four the next, six next turn and so forth until he is dead. Plus, you gain a lot of life. I can see problems against Progenitus though.

spell snare could be dropped for stifle if stifle/nought is to be fit into this build and then carnival dropped for nought.

i was thinking more along the lines of carnival means you win if it comes down, and there isnt much along the lines of creature removal in this list (that should probably change via STP for spellsnare) so i was thinking more along the lines of using foundry to block whatever is attacking you until you can fetch carnival for the win. i can see how it might be unnecessary though. you should only be fetching out and playing the combo once you have soft locked the board, with counterbalance or maybe have blown it with planar collapse so at that point, you should probably have drawn about 5 lands, which is enough to win. its pretty hard to keep up with 5 tokens and 5 life per turn.

[xTrainx]

I saw this deck, and liked it quite a bit.
I'm currently running:

x2 Vault of Whispers
x4 Synod
x1 Academy Ruins
x3 Strand
x3 Delta
x4 Tundra
x4 Underground Sea

x4 FoW
x4 Daze

x4 Ponder
x4 Brainstorm
x4 Enlightened Tutor
x4 Thirst for Knowledge
x1 Tezzeret

x4 Carnival of Souls
x4 Sword of the Meek
x4 Thopter Foundry
x2 Time Sieve

---------------------

And, for your enjoyment:

Soft.Pillow puts Sword of the Meek to Graveyard from Play
Soft.Pillow puts a 1/1 Artifact Thopter token into play
Sword of the Meek is enchanting Thopter now
Soft.Pillow puts Sword of the Meek into play from Graveyard
Soft.Pillow's life total is now 19 (+1)
Soft.Pillow's life total is now 18 (-1)
Sword of the Meek is enchanting no target now
Soft.Pillow puts Sword of the Meek to Graveyard from Play
Soft.Pillow duplicates Thopter
<Soft.Pillow> infinte thopter
<enzomare> stupid deck
<System> Player Lost

[Screwtape]

Carnival of Souls seems unnecessary to me. It's completely dead without combo online, and we have enough completely dead cards in Sword of the Meek, and Foundry itself to some extent. Also, most of the time all it takes is one or two untaps with combo online to secure the game. No need to go infinite. Against aggro, life gained from foundry should be enough to keep you in the game. Against control, it's more important to establish countertop lock. Against combo, either countertop or side in more counters and counter their key spells.

I was considering Ancient Tomb in this deck, because I often found myself unable to get Sword in the yard and having to hardcast it, but apart from Sword, only Thirst and Humility in the sideboard would benefit from 2 colorless. Considering the fact that the lifeloss from Tomb wouldn't hurt much if you're paying for Foundry and gaining life in the process, would it be worthwile to test that card? What do you think?

This is my take on this concept.

// NAME: Thopter Foundry
// CREATOR: Screwtape
// CREATED: 11/21/2009 9:45:00 PM
// FORMAT: Legacy
// Lands
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Tolaria West
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
// Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
// Spells
3 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Ponder
// Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sword of the Meek
4 Thopter Foundry
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Muddle the Mixture
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sword of the Meek

[Vacrix]

@Screwtape:


I often found myself unable to get Sword in the yard and having to hardcast it

I've been thinking that Entomb can be fit into this somehow to either get Sword of the Meek into the yard, or maybe Iona as an oops-I-win strat.

Also, don't you miss even a singleton EE in your build? EE + Academy Ruins is GG against quite a few decks, and you can tutor it up via Enlightened Tutor.

[Illissius]

Basically this is what ZviStill (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15176.html) tried to be, with a different combo and probably sans Still. The overriding question is: is the combo fast enough in this case? Mizzium/Vault wasn't for Zvi.

All I'm good for is untested decklists, so here's a first draft of how I would do it. It's called GlobalFoundries, to be cute.

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Thopter Foundry
4 Sword of the Meek

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Humility
1 Relic of Progenitus

2 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Plains

SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Aura of Silence

The Swords and especially Path could be Spell Snare, some other removal spell, Daze, or basically anything which serves to slow down an aggro deck. I'd use Daze, but it seems to be at cross purposes with wanting to ramp your mana as fast as possible for making Thopter tokens, so I'm not sure.

Humility has some pretty great synergy with the combo. And I've always wanted to run a deck which can side into 4 E. Tutor, 4 Plague, and Humility, so that's nice.

I'm not sure if an artifact land or two is worth including. Would you ever rather Tutor for one than for a Top? You can sac them to a Foundry by itself, which is nice, but they only make one color and get Wasted and so on, which isn't nice.

I'd like to include some sort of acceleration, but I can't think of anything specifically which could work. Chrome Mox is very awkward with all the artifacts, Dark Ritual isn't really compatible with enough of the spells, Lotus Petal doesn't do enough, all of the colored mana costs mostly preclude Tomb or City, and Mox Diamond would require cutting spells, which are already very tight as is. Though I dunno -- maybe in place of some of the removal? Would Mox Diamond accelerate the deck by as much as removal slows an opposing aggro deck down? (Mox Diamond also doesn't help against Pridemages, unlike removal.)

[BreathWeapon]

Splashing Black for Tombstalker when you're running Thirst for Knowledge is sexy as hell, plus you get to play Perish out of the SB.

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Spellsnare

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Tombstalker
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Sword of the Meek

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 ???

19 Lands

[Maveric78f]

I would play less Stalkers for more Bitterblossoms, which is nice with Foundry and should be able stall enough time for you to find the combo. I wonder if 19 lands is enough knowing that you need mana to generate tokens.

By the way I don't see how a 2-cards combo that doesn't gain the game right after and that loses to leyline, krosan grip, engineered plague can work in legacy.

[Screwtape]

I've been thinking that Entomb can be fit into this somehow to either get Sword of the Meek into the yard, or maybe Iona as an oops-I-win strat.

Also, don't you miss even a singleton EE in your build? EE + Academy Ruins is GG against quite a few decks, and you can tutor it up via Enlightened Tutor.
I think both would be good choices, but that would force the deck to run black, and I try to keep the deck two-color. Singleton Explosives could be included - but would it be good enough if we know that we won't hit anything above CMC 2? Probably ok in most cases.


I'm not sure if an artifact land or two is worth including. Would you ever rather Tutor for one than for a Top? You can sac them to a Foundry by itself, which is nice, but they only make one color and get Wasted and so on, which isn't nice.
Yes, they can be problematic, which is why I tried only two. Sometimes they come in handy, sometimes they don't. Probably getting one too early and losing it to removal would hurt more than what you gain for tutoring them up when needed. Can be cut.


I'd use Daze, but it seems to be at cross purposes with wanting to ramp your mana as fast as possible for making Thopter tokens, so I'm not sure.
I wouldn't hesitate to play Daze. You want to ramp mana, but first of all you need your combo pieces, either Foundry or Counterbalance, to stick. Daze does a good job at that point. You're probably forfeiting a part of your ability to play foundry and pump out some thopters on the same turn, but I think you risk more having only FoW to cover your crucial plays.


By the way I don't see how a 2-cards combo that doesn't gain the game right after and that loses to leyline, krosan grip, engineered plague can work in legacy.
You can make such lists for any 2-card combo. And this one at least doesn't care about creature removal. Engineered Plague would be a more of a nuisance, you still end up with some extra life and a 1/2 token with sword that could block and attack next turn, if I grasp the rules correctly.

Also, perhaps running an Oblivion Ring as a universal, tutorable answer to permanents like those enchantments would be a viable choice?

One more question, do you think Mishra's Factory should be cut in my build? It's a leftover from an earlier version which included, among others, Gifts Ungiven and Crucible. Now it can only buy some time or be saced to foundry (when animated), which is nice, but is it worth the effort? Probably a better choice than artifact lands, though.

[Maveric78f]

Still I'm interested and you're right pointing out that the combo does not die to creature removal. I'll try this

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spellsnare

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Tombstalker
3 Bitterblossom
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Sword of the Meek

4 Snuff Out

18 Lands UB + 1 academy ruins

[Illissius]

By the way I don't see how a 2-cards combo that doesn't gain the game right after and that loses to leyline, krosan grip, engineered plague can work in legacy.

This is more like Mask/Nought in terms of a 'combo' than the usual "I win now" sort. Which happens to be the previous combo I always wanted to run in this kind of E. Tutor + CB/Top shell, except for the fact that it wasn't legal. And yeah, whether the combo itself is any good is basically the entire question, otherwise the whole exercise is pointless. And I dunno. I figure no one else wants to go out and test it either?

Also, I don't know if 19 lands is enough. It's probably not. It was just easier to cut lands than to figure out even more spells to cut.

Also also, why are people trying to turn this into some kind of weird Faeries/Team America amalgation? I'm not saying it's a bad idea -- though, actually, it probably is -- it just seems kind of strange and lacking a reason.



Also, perhaps running an Oblivion Ring as a universal, tutorable answer to permanents like those enchantments would be a viable choice?

Explosives could work in most cases. It's definitely worth running even if you only have two colors, for Goyf and Counterbalance and Pridemage and LoA and on and on. Does anyone still use Leyline?

[Maveric78f]

It's not about Stalker, but BB is definitely a good defensive card that comboes nicely with Sword. After some tests, I'd remove the snares, stalkers and snuff out for dazes, more BB and smothers. I would also remove academy ruins.

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Dark Confidant
3 Bitterblossom
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Sword of the Meek

3 Smother

19 Lands UB

The curve is awful as hell with 25 2CC spells.

[Illissius]

What are you defensively using Bitterblossom against? It doesn't seem nearly fast enough against Zoo. It's basically like a Lingering Death that also costs you life.

Edit: And yeah, I also had the impulse to try to make Sword of the Meek useful outside of the combo, but then I figured that it's basically impossible. It gives a creature +1/+2. That's not very useful even when it works.

Edit Edit: Someone mentioned Entomb. That seems like a bad idea at first, but then I'm not sure. You could speed the deck up a bit by running 3-4 Entomb + 1 Sword rather than 4 Swords. It saves you a mana, and could speed the deck up by a full turn via turn 1 Entomb, turn 2 Foundry, turn 3 start making tokens, which might not even be too slow against aggro decks just by itself.

So let's see...

Pro:
- Costs one less, can speed you up by a turn in the best case.
- Can, theoretically, entomb other things. Like Explosives or Foundry if you have a Ruins. That seems marginal though. Is there anything else useful you could include? Best I can think of is Deep Analysis, which again doesn't seem that great. Then again, probably better than a dead Sword.

Con:
- Requires an additional artifact from somewhere to begin the combo.
- Doesn't work with Thirst for Knowledge.
- If it gets countered, you're SOL, whereas countering a Sword is futile unless it's with Dissipate.

Thoughts?


Edit Edit Edit!

A 'turbo' Entomb build might look something like this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Entomb

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Deep Analysis

4 Mox Diamond

2 Academy Ruins
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Island

SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Carnival of Souls

[nodahero]

I have been testing this combo in a wide array of shells. Typically speaking barring really bad luck once I have Sword and Foundry together you dont lose. The trick is finding a shell that can play the defense game while setting it up. I have been tinkering with a Landstill-esq concept for the combo but am far from even polishing it yet.

I think a shell similar to Landstill would be ideal because it is certainly capable of stalling the early game and we dont lose the late game.

[BreathWeapon]

Sword of the Meek is really useful with Tarmogoyf, I learned that lesson in Extended with Cephalid Illusionist combo - it's flat out awesome when your combo piece breaks Goyf mirrors.

Edit: Also, I really like Mishra's Factory in here

[blaat]

A landstill variant looks the best possible deck for this combo.

Humility (and perhaps moat) are auto-include to kick agro in the nuts, and you don't want pridemage and friends to ruin your day.
Daze is pretty bad because of the land-bounce problem.
You always want enough land when the combo is out to have counter mana available and some EOT token mana.

a rough list (inspired by the walker decks):

manabase:
obvious UW + ruins + perhaps factories

spells:
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Goldmane
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor

I'm still undecided about the standstill/visions thing and whether or not to run factories.
Also a third color makes E.E better.

[arebennian]

Couldn't you just run it with a Gifts Shell? With Gifts replacing FOF?

Foundry/Sword/Argivian Find/Ruins

Argivian Find isn't total jank as it can return Humility, Top, Foundry once it is K.Griped, Explosives or such to your hand. You could use Crucible of Worlds but it is a bit slow (still include it in the board though as it is still great with Gifts).
Throw in 2 Enlightened Tutor and your done...

[Screwtape]

Couldn't you just run it with a Gifts Shell? With Gifts replacing FOF?
If you're thinking about Gifts, the best think you could do is just throw a singleton foundry and sword into an existing Gifts deck as an additional win condition. It would probably fit in nicely.

I like Gifts, and I tried Gifts, but found it clunky in a dedicated Foundry-Sword deck and decided against it.

Gifts is four mana, and the package you listed would get you Sword and Ruins in hand, Foundry and Find in the grave. Which means you have to play Ruins, play Sword from your hand, tap Ruins and two mana to get Foundry, draw Foundry and play Foundry. You play Gifts on your opponent's fourth or fifth turn, spend a turn setting up ruins, and get the combo assembled on the 6th turn.

Of course you could have a Foundry or a Sword before playing Gifts. But in that case, why wouldn't you run more tutors instead of Gifts to get the other piece? Also, if you want to try a dedicated deck, you might not be able to run enough good Gifts targets to warrant playing Gifts.

I think even Muddle the Mixture could offer more to this deck than Gifts. It's sorcery speed, but cheaper and uncounterable. It can reliably get both pieces and CB. And is quite useful outside tutoring.

[dahcmai]

Fact or Fiction worth it? It dumps in the yard if you want and is massive CA. It's not horrid.

[Screwtape]

Fact or Fiction worth it? It dumps in the yard if you want and is massive CA. It's not horrid.
Over Gifts? I guess. You want Sword in the grave, but having it in hand isn't a lost cause too, making it harder for the opponent to evaluate the revealed cards if one of them is Sword.

However, it has to compete with Thirst for Knowledge. Would you play FoF over TfK if you didn't have the room for both?

I can't reliably answer that question for the time being.

[Aggro_zombies]

Over Gifts? I guess. You want Sword in the grave, but having it in hand isn't a lost cause too, making it harder for the opponent to evaluate the revealed cards if one of them is Sword.
Uh, you actually don't want it straight in the yard. That forces you to sacrifice an unrelated artifact to get it into play the first time, which may or may not be a desirable thing. It would be better to say that you want Sword in play, but having it in the graveyard isn't a lost cause either.

[Screwtape]

It depends. If I'm going against aggro with access to Pridemage or Grip and have to assume Foundry won't stick in play for long, I'd rather sac Top that is already in play and pump out 2 more thopters, than play out Sword and get 2 less. I guess you could say it's a judgement call.

Ideally, it would be best to play and sac a Sword, but situations where you would want to cut corners and just dump the sword in the yard will come up more often than not. Especially in context of playing CMC 4 draw spells - you are far enough into the game and if you're going against aggro, you're probably behind on life and going to lose in the next 2 turns or so if you don't get the combo online.

Edit: Still, as you say, in general you might want the sword in your hand. Fact or Fiction lets you choose where to put it, compared with Gifts, so it's a point for FoF.

[Dilettante]

Hrm, I've been trying to test the combo in a Countertop shell instead, to make it an integrated part rather than purely the star. I'll try running it this weekend if I'm playing. So far in testing, I am finding the green useful for the Krosan Grips and Predators moreso than Goyf. I may just cut Sword #2 for Top #4 or Ponder #2. Also, Moat has been very, very effective for game 1's. And yes, I'm actually trying to run Carpet of Flowers. I clearly need more sleep.

Creatures (7)
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Trygon Predator

Planeswalkers (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Enchantments (5)
4x Counterbalance
1x Moat

Spells (20)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Daze
1x Spell Pierce
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Ponder

Artifacts (8)
3x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Vedalken Shackles
2x Thopter Foundry
2x Sword of the Meek

Lands (19)
3x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
1x Savannah
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Forest

Sideboard
4x Krosan Grip
1x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spell Pierce
3x Wrath of God
2x Pithing Needle
1x Moat
1x Carpet of Flowers

[Vacrix]

A 'turbo' Entomb build might look something like this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Entomb

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Deep Analysis

4 Mox Diamond

2 Academy Ruins
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Island

SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Carnival of Souls

Cool, however why don't we pursue a more reanimator like shell and have thopter foundry as a surprise backup plan?

Creatures 12
4 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Sphinx Sovereign
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
3 Goblin Welder

Reanimation 12
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume

Backup 6
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

Draw/Search 10
4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough
4 Ponder

Land 20
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Ideally you could win with various reanimation targets. The artifact lands allow you to sacrifice something to weld in various, huge artifact creatures. Welder can conveniently also target Thopter Foundry, making it an entomb target in certain situations. The artifact lands also serve a 2nd purpose for the case in which foundry is in play and sword is in the yard, but you don't have any artifacts to sac to start the combo.

Thoughts?

[Dilettante]

The issue I see with such a reanimation shell is that it lacks any form of protection and the deck dies to the same hate cards as Dredge. It doesn't have raw or defensive control and doesn't set a clock until it 'goes off'. Run into any Countertop/Threshold/Landstill deck and it's basically an autolose. Not saying it wouldn't work, but it has hurdles to overcome. The deck relies on Welder beyond the 2-cost cards, and leaves the combo pieces naked once they hit play.

[Pelikanudo]

And what about Tezzerator in he deck?, Tezz seems to be the great card . Ill show a recent list which has won a tournament, In my opinion it should be the approach not focusing so much in the combo an letting the deck behaves like a control one :

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30599

I'd like to add the counterbalance lock which provides us invulnerability to extirpate, also.

the gifts approach provides us a less number on combo cards and allowing us to leave more empty slots for control cards, it also can be devastating in some circumstances, but I'm not sure if c.b and gifts will behave as expected in conjunction.
Opinions?

[Aggro_zombies]

And what about Tezzerator in he deck?, Tezz seems to be the great card . Ill show a recent list which has won a tournament, In my opinion it should be the approach not focusing so much in the combo an letting the deck behaves like a control one :

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30599

I'd like to add the counterbalance lock which provides us invulnerability to extirpate, also.

the gifts approach provides us a less number on combo cards and allowing us to leave more empty slots for control cards, it also can be devastating in some circumstances, but I'm not sure if c.b and gifts will behave as expected in conjunction.
Opinions?
His deck is almost an exact port of the Extended versions of the deck, which does quite well. One issue with that deck is the speed, though; the deck as designed is slow and will struggle against Zoo decks that can flood the field with quality threats and burn spells. It needs more sweepers - EE is not sufficient - and to lower its curve somewhat to catch up with the speed of this format.

EDIT: Counterbalance is an interesting option, but that list's curve isn't optimized for Counterbalance against Zoo or Threshold variants.

[Pelikanudo]

His deck is almost an exact port of the Extended versions of the deck, which does quite well. One issue with that deck is the speed, though; the deck as designed is slow and will struggle against Zoo decks that can flood the field with quality threats and burn spells. It needs more sweepers - EE is not sufficient - and to lower its curve somewhat to catch up with the speed of this format.

EDIT: Counterbalance is an interesting option, but that list's curve isn't optimized for Counterbalance against Zoo or Threshold variants.

I exposed that deck as a different approach, a simple prototype, but playing in a single deck c.b, swords and explosives I do not think zoo can be a problem at all, even having in mind that our thopter-sword provide us an efficient lock vs the life loss.

[Aggro_zombies]

I exposed that deck as a different approach, a simple prototype, but playing in a single deck c.b, swords and explosives I do not think zoo can be a problem at all, even having in mind that our thopter-sword provide us an efficient lock vs the life loss.
Well, in theory it seems fine because Counterbalance locks Zoo out, Explosives sweeps guys already in play and Swords deals with 2cc things to keep Counterbalance around. In practice, however, Zoo can field threats more consistently than that deck can field answers, and the varied curve of threats means it often takes a couple turns with EE to sweep the board, assuming you have the mana to play and pop EE in one turn. Swords interacts negatively with your own Chalice and the curve of the deck would need to be completely retooled to have a higher concentration of cards in the 2cc and 1cc slots to make Counterbalance work on a regular basis.

[NQN]

Me and some friends are currently testing an U/w Control Build with Balance in the sideboard. The Combo is definitely good enough as you will most likely not loose if it sticks for 1-2 turns. We think about all playing it at GP: Madrid.
If someone wants to join the testing group...;)

[Pelikanudo]

Well, in theory it seems fine because Counterbalance locks Zoo out, Explosives sweeps guys already in play and Swords deals with 2cc things to keep Counterbalance around. In practice, however, Zoo can field threats more consistently than that deck can field answers, and the varied curve of threats means it often takes a couple turns with EE to sweep the board, assuming you have the mana to play and pop EE in one turn. Swords interacts negatively with your own Chalice and the curve of the deck would need to be completely retooled to have a higher concentration of cards in the 2cc and 1cc slots to make Counterbalance work on a regular basis.

'm not pretending to run any Chalice main, as I play enough 2cc and 1cc to not to run it, even I've to say that the c.b replace absolutly the functionality of chalice.

[Pelikanudo]

Me and some friends are currently testing an U/w Control Build with Balance in the sideboard. The Combo is definitely good enough as you will most likely not loose if it sticks for 1-2 turns. We think about all playing it at GP: Madrid.
If someone wants to join the testing group...;)

I'm from MAdrid and I'd like to do that, well ,
I propose to start developing the deck on the mana base.

I'll study the cards I'd like to run main and I'll espose my version of the list or at least the approach I'd like to get

[easyrider]

How about this list? It's pretty much a port of the extended version:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30599

It was only a 19 person tournament, so the result doesn't mean much. In regards to concerns over the Zoo matchup, I feel like this would have a decent Zoo matchup if you went -1 Chalice of the Void, -1 Sower of Temptation, +1 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Spell Snare.

[The Wolf]

Just to point this out so better legacy builders can weigh in, but Transmute Artifact has some pretty good synergy with a combo that has 2 things that both cost 2. Sacking a sword to go get a foundry seems pretty awesome. Archbound ravager and plating also happen to have this mana cost, as well as a ton of other stuff.

This card may be too slow and risky, but it might be worth looking at. Counterbalance at 2 would be an issue...

[nodahero]

While I like your idea of Transmute artifact you have to consider what you would cut for it.

The obvious card to cut in my thoughts is Entomb because it serves a similar role but then again entomb is simply faster and it is not as detremental if it gets countered.

This argument is similar to the 61st card argument.

You need to figure out what you would cut for the card or if you just wana add an extra slot to the list. Your call.

PS I am more than happy to help test this deck and put it through its paces. I have been using Thopter Combo in legacy for a couple of months now.

[The Wolf]

This is more what I was thinking. Pretty much a control shell with lots of ways to find the combo.


4 Thopter foundry
4 Sword of the Meek
3 Shackles

4 Path/Smother (Depending on your splash)

3 Transmute Artifact
3 Thirst
4 Brainstorm


4 Top
4 Counter Balance
4 Force
3 Spell Pierce / Daze / Counterspell

20 Lands


The nice thing about this is its pretty much waste proof, and offers a splash of white or black, or both if it is necessary.
Shackles are good because it offers a way to control the board until you can just transmute into the combo.

Again, my legacy experience is fairly limited, but this looks like it could have some potential.

[Pelikanudo]

@NQN
@Agro_Zombies

Regarding to the list and approaches I commented, I've been thinking about an archetype and this is what I'm going to play, I'll let you know which will be the results

2 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
7 Island (-1 land Edit)
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea



4 Brainstorm

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Fact of fiction
1 Deep analisys (before +1 Thirst)
4 counterspell (before +4 snare Edit)
1 Sword of the Meek

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to exile

( before +3 Thirst for Knowledge edit)
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 senseis d.t (before -1 senseis)
4 counterbalance

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Jace B. (before + 1 thirst)

I've to think about the side also but my idea is about
trinis
vendilion
e.plague
meekstone
relics
path 2ex
B2B
...
I'm in a hurry and I'll exlain in more detail the choices

Opinions?

[gamegeek2]

What I'm puzzled by is none of these lists take advantage of Humility. It seems disgusting in a deck based around making 1/1s. Sure, they lose flying, but they trade with everything. It's also great at buying time against creature onslaughts.

[Forbiddian]

What I'm puzzled by is none of these lists take advantage of Humility. It seems disgusting in a deck based around making 1/1s. Sure, they lose flying, but they trade with everything. It's also great at buying time against creature onslaughts.

If the combo is going off and you're successfully making 1/1s, it won't matter if the opponent has a 4/5 Goyf or a 1/1 Goyf, so if you ever get the choice between activating the combo or running out a humility, you'll just go for the kill.

If you're already comboing out, you'll only want to cast humility to stop, like, Phyrexian Dreadnought.


So the only time it'd be useful is when you CAN'T combo out. But since the goal is to combo out, you're probably better off putting a spell in that will help you combo out instead of one that will conditionally help you in some matchups.

[pi4meterftw]

@NQN
@Agro_Zombies

Regarding to the list and approaches I commented, I've been thinking about an archetype and this is what I'm going to play, I'll let you know which will be the results

2 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
8 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea



4 Brainstorm

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Fact of fiction
4 Spell Snare
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 senseis d.t
4 counterbalance

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Jace B.


I've to think about the side also but my idea is about
trinis
vendilion
e.plague
meekstone
relics
path 2ex
B2B
...
I'm in a hurry and I'll exlain in more detail the choices

Opinions?

Are you looking for mere opinions or facts?

If the latter, you'll have to ask someone with more knowledge about the deck, but it's an extended powerhouse. It also appears to be dominated by landstill, but again you'll have to consult a more experienced individual.

But if the former:

Thopter Foundry is a cute concept. Not sure what kind of substance you could be looking for if you're just asking for opinions...

[Darkenslight]

@Pelikan: When the new Jace comes out, I think it'd be a lock for this deck. Also, I see a distinct lack of search outside of Tezz. You might want to change the list to add, maybe, Reshape or Fabricate, something to that effect.

[Pelikanudo]

I'm liking a lot the list of before, the changes I'll add
will be:
-1 thirst = +1 jace
and regarding to the 4 snares I just prefer counterpells
so - 4 snare = 4 c.spell
-1 thirst = +1 Deep An.
-1 thirst = +1 path to xile
-1 land = +1 senseis d. top

The fact is that the mot I play thirst the most I dislike it. I do not have many artifacts to play thirst efficiently
I find I deep to be a great card drawer.
also I wanted to put in any more swords and the 4th senseis c.b. just 1.
I'll try this.

[Miles_Smith]

Hi, I'm the person who used the Thopter/Foundry deck that won the tournament in Calgary. My apologies for the delay in replying, but it took a few days to get posting privileges. (Much obliged, Bardo!)

To stimulate discussion and since I just typed a whole wack-load of text for the Alberta forums, I'd love some feedback on the deck and the type-up, although it's a bit out of date since it's copy/pasted from two weeks ago. The big thing is that I saw our local metagame and built for it. Here we go:


2 ANT (Ad Nauseum Tendrils storm)
1 B/W Depths
2 Belcher
2 Burn
1 Canadian Threshold
1 Combo Elves
1 Draco 'splosion
1 Dredge
1 Eva Depths
1 Mono-White Stax
1 Naya Zoo
2 Reanimator
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Tezzeret
1 U/B/G Countertop

1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

4 Brainstorm
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
2 Counterspell
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Spell Snare
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Sword to Plowshares
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Trinket Mage

Sideboard
1 Annul
2 Back to Basics
1 Chill
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Meddling Mage
1 Perish
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tormod's Crypt


Reanimator, 2-0. Faced it in the Swiss for a loss, but figured it out the second time around.

B/G Eva Green with Dark Depths, 2-0. Play-tested with this friend a lot prior to the tournament. I have an edge Game 1 but it gets a bit dicey post-SB'ing. We had an unintentional 1-1 draw in the Swiss.

Belcher in the finals, 2-0. Force of Will + main-deck Pithing Needle and Chalice of the Void went a long way to keeping him under control both games.

We have a combo-heavy metagame that's getting off the ground, so I started to build around Counterbalance and dropping in the combo as a Doug Linn article suggested. http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/zenlimited/18266_Legacys_Allure_Thoughts_on_Thopters.html

I paid special attention to using cool tokens, so I used a stack of baseball slugger Carlos Delgado.

Turned out that everyone was building their decks to evade Counterbalance, so that wasn't too hot. Former Canadian champ Francis Toussaint' burn deck was particularly devastating against the deck. Then I swapped out for a more dedicated counterspell deck with Tezzeret (tutor + ability to overrun with 5/5s). That improved my deck, and then LSV published his excellent extended deck, so I started fiddling with those numbers.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-desperately-seeking-tezzeret/
http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-dueling-for-duals/

I give a lot of credit to their deck designs and articles. I would honestly go with a lot of LSV's commentary for what's good in the deck and so on, but here's a few thoughts on the Legacy context:

Chrome Moxes are notable card-disadvantage and lead to lines that are more all-in when facing another blue deck. I had an opening hand that went Turn 1 Land, Mox, Mox, Trinket Mage (hoping to get a Seat of the Synod so that I could cast a Turn 2 Gifts Ungiven), but the Trinket Mage was Force of Will'ed and I was shields down. I credit some of that to a lack of scouting because I didn't expect FoW to be in Adrian's reanimator deck (I knew that it was all about quick Ionas but not any deck details), but it's a good illustration of the card-disadvantage that the Mox forces on you.

With that said, I'm happy with the card slot although I might drop to 2x copies of Chrome Mox. I tested with 2x before and always wanted the extra copy, but that might change now that the cat's out of the bag. The extra speed boost was very relevant in testing (e.g. Turn 1 Chalice at 1 against Zoo), and because it lets me run the more synergistic Thirst for Knowledge over Ponder. Late moxen serve as Thopter Foundry food. I managed to race a 6/7 Tarmogoyf with random extra artifacts + Trinket Mage after having the Sword of the Meek being exiled by Extirpate.

Sensei's Top was too difficult to find room for. I used to have up to 4 copies, and I found myself always cutting the slots down. That's even with Trinket Mages to tutor.

The sideboard is mostly singletons because of Gifts Ungiven and because I was inspired by Nassif’s GP: Chicago deck.

The SB'ed Back to Basics have been either really strong (I run 10 basics + 3 Chrome Mox) or the opponent got wind of the plan and fetched basics themselves if they could. This led to a bit of a guessing game. Still, the high basics count was one of my deck's planned strengths to help dodge Wasteland, so I might as well take advantage of it.

Crucible is in the SB for extra manabase protection, as well as preparation against Alex's Mono-White Stax deck, which I expected to make Top 8 (and he did, except we didn't face each other). It is also useful against Eva Green's Sinkhole plan, but I didn't use it as such this tournament because I realize it at the tournament site. (An excellent example of me not thinking hard enough!) I have considered adding a Wasteland to the SB, but settled on Back to Basics as being superior for my needs.

Chill is there to help buy time in Burn deck match-up, along with the main-deck Chalice. This was surprisingly a weak match-up in testing without those two components because it presents a fast clock that a couple of counterspells can't hold back all that well. The truth of the matter is that I need to race to get the Foundry/Sword combo ASAP, so anything that buys me extra time is essential. Chrome Mox is also very important for the speed boost. Chill was also relevant against the Belcher deck I played against in the finals since it made Shattering Spree extra slow to play (he had to wait a lot of turns to get enough mana to destroy my Pithing Needle and Chalice of the Void @ 1), but I think it's use was ancillary and overall the Chill is probably expendable.

The mishmash of anti-graveyard strategies served well in testing, but definitely the pair of Leyline of the Void were the strongest. Trinket Mage and Gifts were the reasons for the mix.

I'm quite unsure about the single Glen Elendra Archmage in the SB, as it was a last minute addition. I've also considered Vendilion Clique in that spot.

Perish is a partial wrath effect against Zoo and an out against Progenitus. That's in addition to it wreaking havoc on Elves, albeit at sorcery speed (frown).

I wish that I had Hurkyl's Recall in my SB, so that I have outs against reanimated Inkwells, but that's a bit of an edge case. Probably better served by other options.

I am looking to slot in 4x Leyline of the Void and 1x Helm of Obedience into the SB against graveyard-dependent decks. Helm can be tutored for with Tezzeret.

I play-tested a lot against an Eva Depths deck a lot prior to the tournament (teammate's deck choice). Brainstorm to protect your hand against quick Thoughtseizes and Hymn to Torach has proven to be essential. It seems like I have an edge Game 1 but it gets a bit dicey post-SB'ing with a lot of guessing whether I bring in the Back to Basics or not. We had an unintentional 1-1 draw in the Swiss, but then I managed to triumph in the Top 4.

I'm fortunate that I didn't have to face Counterbalance because it isn't popular in our metagame, but I would expect it to be challenging. Shackles and Sower should help quite a bit in surviving until the combo can be set-up, but the end of the story is that the Thopter/Sword combo means that I can win pretty much any attrition battle in Game 1. Academy Ruins means I have recurring Engineered Explosives to clear the pesky enchantment away; flipping a five when I over-pay the casting-cost with Sunburst = 2 is mighty difficult.

I think the big thing is that I saw our metagame and built for it. Now we'll see if it survives the next tournament in January.

Cheers,
Miles Smith

Addendum: I hope that these thoughts can help someone. I'll be happy to report how it does in my next tournament on January 17th, although I regret that it will be quite some time before I have anything to say! In any case, I will be quite interested if anyone else tries the deck out. It does play as a resilient win-condition that makes it effectively impossible to be burned out from, so I do think it is worth trying out for yourself.

Happy holidays!