What does everyone have against combo?

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Seriously, everyone seems to be so whiny when they have to face combo, it gotten to the point where I have been dubbed "Combo Jeff". This isnt really an issue because I love combo, but somehow they have all decided that combo is "unfun". Personally I find getting based in combat and combat math in general to be unfun. So there.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on people who have a grudge against combo?
Personally if you hate losing to combo, I think you should build a deck that can handle it.

[rockout]

It wins reasonably quickly and has a strong tool box of stuff to fight against hate. I don't really care if someone wants to play combo but I just ask that if you are going to play combo don't be fucking god awful and make lots of mistakes and ask to take moves back and such. It leaves me in kind of a bad state of should I just be a rules nazi and get a free win or try to beat him regardless.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

It wins reasonably quickly and has a strong tool box of stuff to fight against hate. I don't really care if someone wants to play combo but I just ask that if you are going to play combo don't be fucking god awful and make lots of mistakes and ask to take moves back and such. It leaves me in kind of a bad state of should I just be a rules nazi and get a free win or try to beat him regardless.

I understand that. Playing against someone who is terrible with any deck is boring if they are gonna ask for takebacks. But im talking about playing combo well and people whining because they're decks arent equipped to handle it

[Phoenix Ignition]

Some people play magic for the fun of interacting with their opponent.

Some people don't want to interact with people who play magic, for obvious reasons, but want to win strongly enough that they'll come play (combo) anyway.

Competitive players shouldn't really have a problem with it. I think it's kind of fun to play auto-loss matchups like me with goblins against belcher. Takes the pressure off. This is keeping in mind that the person playing combo isn't a complete self-righteous douche bag.

[MMogg]

I love combo! I even went back and made/played old school combo decks that were around from before I was playing (like Pros-Bloom). One of my best memories was some dude at a PTQ, unaware that the game was over when I turn two Angry Ghouled his ass. He's all, "My turn?" "Umm, that's game, you're dead." ":confused: " That's what combo is all about: pulling off the unbelievable or die trying.

Best combo/masturbater deck ever is pre-banned Mind's Desire. :smile:

I don't know or care why people hate, but haters gonna hate n playaz gonna play. Really, how many people say control is cheap? It seems only aggro or aggro control is acceptable. Screw that. Paper, rock, scissors... you need all three for a balance and so too does Magic need combo to keep aggro in check.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This seems to be what I hear most often "that wasn't even like playing Magic" and just last Wednesday ChokeSeemsGood wanted to make his thoughts crystal clear on how unsatisfying it is playing against combo yet he was running Recruiter Aluren and was talking about beating people on turn 3....

So here is why I think people don't like combo, they do, but it has to be combo that appeals to them. If they think your deck is "unfair" then they don't like it, but if you have a "balanced" combo deck, one that has a gaping vulnerability to certain cards, then they like it because somewhere down the line they can see their decks consistently, or at least more than occassionally beating it with the help of certain SB cards.

If you play "unfair" combo decks like DDFT, ANT, and TES, the ones that can actually win in the face of your opponent's hate cards then a lot of people won't like it because they view you as an auto-loss. Since I don't own any non-combo cards anymore most players at my local card shop groan in disgust when they have to play me because they know I am playing combo.

But personally I couldn't care less about any of that, I like playing Magic and I like playing storm combo so thats what I play. Casting Goyf and attacking is boring as hell to me, resolving some enchantment to lock my opponent out of the game is lame, and playing a deck with 19 + counters is just awful. But this is my opinion. I get a great deal of satisfaction playing combo because it is the only archetype of deck that genuinely racks my brain enough and I feel that of all the decks storm combo rewards a skilled player more than any.

And to all those who oppose combo, it isn't about having auto-wins or easy matchups or winning everytime, what I like about combo is getting into some really fucked up situations and seeing if I can get myself out and how resilient the deck is to the opponent's hate. Do I enjoy goldfish matchups, absolutely, but I also like playing against all the hate cards and seeing if the deck can handle it.

[Brad Herbig]

I've been called "Combo Brad" before too. When people get tired of losing to my combo decks, I just switch to something like tempo thresh, and they get pissed that they don't only lose to combo. It's kinda funny actually.

[FoulQ]

I think the answer is pretty simple: the lack of interactivity and the auto-loss situation. Not much more to it then that. Still, there is an aura around tendrils decks that I don't quite understand, and I feel like even I am a victim of it, somewhat. I am scared to go to storm boards, haha. :P

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I feel like lack of interactivity is an incredibly weak argument. After all, if I am succeeding in comboing out, its not just because my deck failed to interact with yours, your deck also failed to interact with mine.
And as far as the auto-lose situation, getting attack by a 7/8 goyf for the third time is also an auto loss situation, I fail to see how one method or another suddenly turns a deck into "unfun"

I think Bryant summarized my feelings best when talking about his combo EDH, "I enjoy doing broken stuff. I don't care if you're having fun as long as I am."

My definition of fun is winning and my preferred method is combo, don't like it? Don't play.

[irrelevant]

I enjoy playing combo and playing against combo. Its why I like vintage so much. I understand why people don't like playing against combo though. To some people decks that don't have to interact with their opponent unless it's to declare victory are considered degenerate. These people are the ones who also don't like having spells countered or games last only 3 turns.

It's the mindset that this is a game and not a competition, rather they feel magic should be an endeavor of enjoyment. I don't think you will really see competitive players complain about combo. Unless they didn't prepare for it and it showed up. They're going to complain about any deck they didn't prepare for anyways though.

Most people who complain about it won't be running counterspells so they will never have main deck ways of combating combo. Dealing with combo takes a very specific answer outside of counterspells. These answers are specific only to combo. The mindset about what should be played in magic will never allow them to have an answer for combo until after board. And the dearth of combo decks in most fields lets them skimp on board cards for that matchup. So pretty much its just a loser way of bitching about a deck you aren't prepared for. I feel like I'm just reiterating everyone's points so I'll stop.

[Digital Devil]

The problem with combo decks is that it's not a game of two, it's like two people playing solitaire one in front of each other. The problem is not when a combo player assembles his pieces, but when he goes off. By the time he finishes to storm up your ass you have already had dinner, washed your car, got married and your kids are now working for the NASA. To me, combo is not a problem, because I play cards which deal with it greatly (3sphere/Chalice/Thorn of Amethyst). I personally enjoy other types of games, but it's amusing to land a first turn 3sphere/Moon and insta-win. I think playing combo feels something like this. Well, people always have something to whine about. I once saw a player losing to combo and complaining about it. "Hell, it's unfair, I'd rather play against a creature deck". The next round he lost to Goblins, and went home. LoL. Combo represents a really small part of the Magic players. I couldn't care less.

[Thor]

The problem is as a non combo player you are forced into playing certain colors in order to consistantly beat(or even interact with) storm combo and relalistically you need to be playing a counterbalence deck. That invalidates tons of stratgies people enjoy playing(you know like you enjoy combo) if they are attempting to win tournies. While CB does this also, there is an easily spashable answer that can be cast in most normal games (Kgrip). Storm can win before any of the nonblue hate can be played. Now we get to the main reason people hate on combo, people have fun in different ways, and your deck keeps them from what they enjoy about magic. Where even if they have a terrible thresh match up you still get to play 6ish turns and hava some back and forth action. You enjoy winning with broken things while others enjoy slowly out thinking opponents. I'll agree with you in competitive setting either your dealing with combo or ignoring it. In local tournies.where people (generally) go to have some fun they have every right to hate it. To sum up the way you have fun stops others from having fun and just because you don't care doesn't mean its an invalid point

Note: I don't have a problem with combo but can understand why people do.

[quicksilver]

The reason I hate combo is because I do not like games where the goal is to prevent a player from ever doing anything or to end the game before a player has a chance to do anything. That is the goal of combo and I find that to be very unfun. I enjoy games where both players can play.

Seriously if you don't like interacting with your opponent or anything why not just stay home and goldfish the deck, it's the same thing.

[JeroenC]

Seriously if you don't like interacting with your opponent or anything why not just stay home and goldfish the deck, it's the same thing.

Because it's a tournament and we want to win with a deck we like. Oh snap, that's combo. If you're on a tournament and complaining that you never get to play a spell, then you can go join the "1.5 no storm, counters or discard" mws morons. The goal of a tournament is, in the end, to win. If we do that before you've done anything, that just means your deck isn't good enough.

[Nihil Credo]

My only objection to combo is that the tools to fight it are tremendously unbalanced colour-wise. I consider it a serious flaw in the game (or, more specifically, in the format) that a R/G deck can do very little against any Storm deck besides narrow and, worse, shitty options like Chalice@0, PPillar, or Mindbreak Trap. Being the underdog is an interesting challenge; being a sitting duck is soul-crushing. Playing R/G thus becomes less of a strategic choice and more of a gamble, with the wager being your fun. Ew.

Other than that I'm fine with Tendrils, in no small part because I only get to play against it once in a while and it's a nice variation from regular, damage-based Magic (again, if I'm not playing a R/G deck). I'd definitely get sick of playing poker against combo 50% or more of the time - but then that's true of almost every archetype. Except maybe Battle of Wits.

[Piceli89]

Short answer to the OP question: because people find more clever and rightful to go "bolt you, bolt you, fireblast you" or "Swing with my 4/5 Tarmogoyf, drop an amazing 3/4 Rhox War Monk for 3, now deal with it!".

Do not consider those douchebags, really. You embraced Legacy's most puzzling and rewarding archetype. The clever person never cares about the idiots mourning, but ignores and goes straight.

[Bryant Cook]

My favorite part of being a combo player (much like Pulp_Fiction stated) is being in a difficult situation and being forced to find an out. Those are the games I love.

A close second is winning though hate. For example Counter/Top online turn two and playing through it on turn 3. Turn 1 Chalice for 0 or Gaddeck Teeg.

As for the interaction comments. Combo interacts a ton if you play decks that will interact with it. If you just play Kirdape/Goyf swing decks, the only decks you're going to interact with are creature decks. Meaning that the same argument goes to stax players as well.

[kabal]

and playing a deck with 19 + counters is just plain awesome

fixed. :smile:

[tivadar]

fixed. :smile:

Actually I disagree. I complain more about control decks than I do combo. Though I mean straight up control. Decks who seek to win by having me do nothing, not so much fun. Hmm, maybe I should pick up Stasis...

[sauce]

i have gaddock teegs and ethersworn canonist along with mindbreak trap.

[Ectoplasm]

I played 4 meddling mages, 2 runed haloes and 3 ethersworn canonists side for some time.

I guess what people don't like about combo is the fact that some players take the dreaded 10-minute-turn which is just boring. Then again I love playing combo myself now and then and I have nothing against it as an archetype personally.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I hate (fast) combo decks. It has nothing to do with fairness (they're absolutely fair, and an important part of a healthy Legacy metagame), but it does have everything to do with the nature of the deck.

Combo decks promote virtually no interaction on the board. That kind of interaction is precisely what I like most about the game, and where I see the most skill-testing challenges cropping up. There is nothing in the game that I find more satisfying than battles of attrition: a game of point and counter-point, with someone eventually coming out on top. Fast combo certainly does not promote these aims, since it aims specifically to exclude the opponent from the game.

I'm not saying that combo decks aren't fun, aren't challenging, or whatever. I'm just saying that I don't like them because I value interaction between players (on the board) much more highly than I value winning outright.

[andrew77]

People don 't hate combo as much as they hate prison. I personally love both as winning while my opponent is helpless is awesome. If I drop a turn on trinisphere and then get a crucible wasteland lock I would be absolutely giddy and my opponents whining would do nothing but make me enjoy myself even more. Winning turn one is tons of fun too, especially with decks like TES. Some opponents don't scoop even when its already over so I will then take my time killing them.

[Gibsonmac]

Fluctuator was the shit back in the day, god I miss temptest/saga block standard!!

[CallMeLiam]

People don 't hate combo as much as they hate prison. I personally love both as winning while my opponent is helpless is awesome. If I drop a turn on trinisphere and then get a crucible wasteland lock I would be absolutely giddy and my opponents whining would do nothing but make me enjoy myself even more. Winning turn one is tons of fun too, especially with decks like TES. Some opponents don't scoop even when its already over so I will then take my time killing them.


This is very much an attitude I have no problem with in a tournament environment. You're there to win, not to make friends, and if the other player isn't having fun then that's a shame but not your problem.

This is also the reason I don't play in a whole lot of tournaments these days. I like playing magic. I like attacking and blocking, I like interacting with my opponent and I like back and forth swinginess. I don't like being locked out of the game or sitting watching ten minute turns. I don't think anyone enjoys being on the receiving end of that so I wouldn't play a deck like that anywhere but a serious competitive environment.

I suppose my point is that I don't like that kind of deck for a valid reason, but I'm not gonna kick off about it if I'm not playing just to have a good time. If I am playing for fun though, I think it takes a special kind of dick to play Stax or Storm Combo.

[Otter]

I suppose my point is that I don't like that kind of deck for a valid reason, but I'm not gonna kick off about it if I'm not playing just to have a good time. If I am playing for fun though, I think it takes a special kind of dick to play Stax or Storm Combo.

The most fun I ever have playing magic is when I run across the people that play combo in casual matches and then have an excuse wreck their day with stax. They deserve it so badly.

[Windux]

The most fun I ever have playing magic is when I run across the people that play combo in casual matches and then have an excuse wreck their day with stax. They deserve it so badly.

Seriously, Staxx in casual matches? It's the same stupid idea like playing combo in casual matches...

[Otter]

Seriously, Staxx in casual matches? It's the same stupid idea like playing combo in casual matches...

My point was that when I find a jackass who plays combo in casual matches I destroy them with stax to show them how they're being dicks.

[Bluemagex2517]

This is very much an attitude I have no problem with in a tournament environment. You're there to win, not to make friends, and if the other player isn't having fun then that's a shame but not your problem.

This is also the reason I don't play in a whole lot of tournaments these days. I like playing magic. I like attacking and blocking, I like interacting with my opponent and I like back and forth swinginess. I don't like being locked out of the game or sitting watching ten minute turns. I don't think anyone enjoys being on the receiving end of that so I wouldn't play a deck like that anywhere but a serious competitive environment.

I suppose my point is that I don't like that kind of deck for a valid reason, but I'm not gonna kick off about it if I'm not playing just to have a good time. If I am playing for fun though, I think it takes a special kind of dick to play Stax or Storm Combo.

I enjoy combo decks when they do in fact interact. This is why so few people understand vintage. To me magic is at it's most fun when there are very few creatures, attacking and blocking gets old. The number of ways to interact and the choices based on number of outs is so much more complex and interesting. It's only solitaire if one of the players doesn't know what they are doing. And with creature combat it only seems like it's more interactive, usually the better player has a plan that they are trying to bring to fruition, to them it is just as much like solitaire and playing combo.

If you want interesting games that are more "swingy" play limited. Constructed, even standard, isn't as "swingy" as you think. And, combo decks are just as interactable once you understand what's going on.

Personally I have more fun testing combo on combo than I ever did playing casual.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I just hate Tendrils combo decks in particular because i feel like they're too damn strong. I've played CB for about a month straight, and just straight up loose to Tendrils decks EVERYTIME! I lose through 3 FOW or Countertop.

Maybe it's just me bitching, but damn I'm sick of playing a shit ton of hate card, and making the right plays, and STILL getting my ass whipped.

[Meekrab]

People like playing Magic, and their perception is that a Turn 2/3 combo win doesn't allow them to play Magic, when the reality is that they played the wrong kind of Magic or a stack of Magical cards not suited to the format of Magic they chose to play.