Which are currently the best Black creatures in Legacy? [Archive]

DeMarki

10-11-2009, 11:15 AM

I am trying to build a monoblack deck and I'm trying to figure out which would be the most efficient and reliable choices in my disposal.

I'm looking for creatures that will really affect your opponent's gameplay, either by disrupting or heavy beatdown.

After doing some research, I came across those 5, which look like the best for the buck in monoblack:

Tombstalker
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade
Dark Confidant
Phyrexia Negator

Which of those 5 creatures are worth a spot in a monoblack deck(NO green or red splash, please don't mention Tarmogoyf), or remind me if I am missing a good creature from this list.

DrJones

10-11-2009, 11:24 AM

Phyrexian Negator is awful, even Urami and the Phyrexian Totem see more play than Negator.

Knuckles29

10-11-2009, 11:25 AM

If you have Top in there you can use TOmbstalker and Confidant.. if not then you need to check your curve for COnfidant. This isn't really groundbreaking advice, anyone would tell you the same.

Negator hasn't been good in a while, and is only for aggro.

Shade is ok

Specter is underrated, but the format isn't real scarred of him any more

And I am not mentioning this to be a jerk, but maybe even Malikar Bloodwitch, pro StP ain't bad. It is too new, and probably too high cost; but I play more casual so it is ok there

DeMarki

10-11-2009, 11:27 AM

Phyrexian Negator is awful, even Urami and the Phyrexian Totem see more play than Negator.

I left Negator in my list since I have been playing him in Vintage where he rocks, not sure about Legacy though since I am new to the format, hence the thread I created. :)

paK0

10-11-2009, 11:39 AM

Shriekmaw is a decent one.

Media314r8

10-11-2009, 11:52 AM

Elfrago

10-11-2009, 11:59 AM

Tombstalker
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade
Dark Confidant
Gatekeeper of Malakair
Withered Wretch

DeMarki

10-11-2009, 12:05 PM

Some unconventional newer mono black cards:

Gatekeeper of Malakir and vampire nighthawk both seem to border on playable, nighthawk racing extraordinarily well, especially with jitte, and both capable of killing goyf with some profit. (albiet for three mana)

Dusk Urchins is a conditional ancestral recall that trades profitibly with everyone but goyf.

Demigod of Revenge is decent is a combo/control deck, or some odd damnation, tenrils, chainer's edict poxless MBC similar to train wreck.

Ashenmoor Gouger is probably better than Negator right now.

I don't like those options, except perhaps for Gatekeeper of Malakir, he looks pretty efficient if you ask me.

Demigod of Revenge is too slow for a fast aggro deck with efficient beaters, same with Dusk Urchins.

Vampire Nighthawk isn't bad, but I can't find a single reason anyone would play it over Hypnotic Specter.

Ashenmoor Gouger isn't bad, but he just feels kinda underwhelming.

So far I am sticking to Hypnotic Specter, Tombstalker, Nantuko Shade and perhaps Gatekeeper to complement the removal spells.

Is Nantuko still considered top notch for monoblack, or is it outdated?

Nidd

10-11-2009, 12:12 PM

You are all forgetting Korlash.
And I smell some serious potential in the form of Dross Harvester.

Tacosnape

10-11-2009, 12:15 PM

This is a short list.

1. Dark Confidant
2. Gatekeeper of Malakir
3/4. Tombstalker/Nantuko Shade.

Confidant's only as good as your ability to not die horribly off of him, and if this is Mono Black Control, I'd say you're better off with Phyrexian Arena or something else entirely.

Gatekeeper of Malakir belongs in nearly every mono black deck that doesn't strive for a combo finish.

Stalker's better than Shade in a vacuum, but Stalker has that downside of fighting every other ridiculously good card in the format for graveyard resources, meaning Tombstalker gets a little weaker with things like Tarmogoyf or Grim Lavamancer. Tombstalker also doesn't fill as fast without fetchlands. Tombstalker's also very dangerous to run alongside Confidant.

Shade's solid, but is at his best when you don't have to overcommit mana elsewhere.

Shanghi Knights

10-11-2009, 12:24 PM

don't forget oona's prowler its another terribly under estimated card.

DeMarki

10-11-2009, 12:39 PM

How about Nyxathid, combined with powerful discard spells such as Hypnotic Specter, Hymn to Tourach, Duress and Thoughtseize?

Digital Devil

10-11-2009, 12:40 PM

Shriekmaw, Dark Confidant, Tombstalker. Either you run Confidant, or you run the other two.

Nidd

10-11-2009, 02:29 PM

How about Nyxathid, combined with powerful discard spells such as Hypnotic Specter, Hymn to Tourach, Duress and Thoughtseize?
Nyxathid is pretty bad. Discard is great, but there are creatures that compliment it more than Nyxathid: Tombstalker for example. Playing discard spells means your GY will fill fast -> Tombstalker is easily powered out.

DeMarki

10-11-2009, 02:54 PM

Nyxathid is pretty bad. Discard is great, but there are creatures that compliment it more than Nyxathid: Tombstalker for example. Playing discard spells means your GY will fill fast -> Tombstalker is easily powered out.

You could play both. :)

By the way, how is Hypnotic Specter in Legacy, is he still considered a threat, or just annoying?

Eldariel

10-11-2009, 03:52 PM

You could play both. :)

By the way, how is Hypnotic Specter in Legacy, is he still considered a threat, or just annoying?

Turn 1 Hypno is great, turn 3 Hypno is decent. He's still disruptive as ever, but the damage isn't amazing so as a 2/2, you won't be relying on it to kill the opponent. Its primary purpose is clearing out the hand.

And yeah, you usually play it in decks with Ritual 'cause turn 1 Hypno kicks major butt but turn 3 is merely "Ok". Without the chance of dropping it turn 1, I wouldn't play it.

Valtrix

10-11-2009, 04:02 PM

I don't think a T1 hypnotic specter is really that great right now. So many decks will be able to deal with that already with:

+Lightning bolt
+Daze
+Force
+Swords

One of which is in pretty much every deck. Yes, removal is not a reason to necessarily argue for/against a creature, but I think that in this case it matters for a card which is not that great unless you get him out first turn, since even then it's not looking that great.

That said I also think oona's prowler is a very underrated card, though I have no experience with it in Legacy.

The Pharmacist

10-11-2009, 04:52 PM

Royal Assassin
Stone-Throwing Devils
Juzam Djinn

Nihil Credo

10-11-2009, 04:56 PM

I don't think a T1 hypnotic specter is really that great right now. So many decks will be able to deal with that already with:

"Use a counter or a removal spell. If you don't, you're in deep shit" is about as good as you can ask of your turn 1 play.

DeMarki

10-11-2009, 05:11 PM

Would running 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir be enough for maindeck removal or should he compliment other removal spells for a deck to be effective?

Nihil Credo

10-11-2009, 05:27 PM

Would running 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir be enough for maindeck removal or should he compliment other removal spells for a deck to be effective?
Too open a question. A slow creatureless deck needs to kill every single creature its opponent plays. A hyperaggressive deck full of cheap fatties with a turn 3-4 goldfish only cares about the turn 2 Goyf or Dreadnought that will do more than chump-block. Context matters.

thefreakaccident

10-11-2009, 10:59 PM

Bloodghast

This card is soooo annoying for control decks... and actually gets better when the game gets later (bringing back 1-2 hasty 2/2s for every land).

Cthuloo

10-12-2009, 04:52 AM

Would running 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir be enough for maindeck removal or should he compliment other removal spells for a deck to be effective?

I think that even in an aggro deck you still need a bit more removal, in particular targeted removal. A good choice could be to play Gatekeeper + Shriekmaw, and it will probably be enough.

Arrowni

10-12-2009, 10:42 AM

The best black creature is stinkweed imp.

Nightmare

10-12-2009, 11:02 AM

People don't realize it yet, but Vampire Nighthawk is fucking insane.

yankeedave

10-12-2009, 11:07 AM

People don't realize it yet, but Vampire Nighthawk is fucking insane.

I am running 4 in Eva Green, in the Nantuko Shade slot and I am completely happy with it!

rockout

10-12-2009, 11:52 AM

Does vampire hexmage fit into this discussion? Being able to enable a 20/20 indestructible flyer seems good to me. Its got first strike as well.

Cire

10-12-2009, 03:12 PM

So from this discussion it can be gathered that the best black creatures are;

Dark Confidant > A whole bunch of Vampires > Conditional Cards that depend on deck (Tombstalker) > Out-dated 'good' cards (Shade, Specter) > Everything else.

Otter

10-12-2009, 03:30 PM

People don't realize it yet, but Vampire Nighthawk is fucking insane.

Agreed. He can race and trade with pretty much anything in the format, I'd be surprised if we don't start seeing a lot of him. Currently trying him in several decks.

Shanghi Knights

10-12-2009, 04:33 PM

nighthawk has been something some suicide black builds have sorely needed for a long time.

we still need a black creature that can bounce target creature, but i don't see that happening for a while.

Mystical_Jackass

10-12-2009, 07:09 PM

The way I'd go, the way I've seen other Sui Blacks go, would be one way or the other. . .

Meekstone:
-Nantuko Shade
-Vampire Nighthawk
-Gatekeeper
-Confidant
-Hippie

-Jitte
-Bitterblossom

Non-Meekstone:
-Nyxathid
-Tombstalker
-Nantuko Shade
-Hippie
-Gatekeeper

something like that, just an idea

I'm a believer of Nyxathid btw. I've had opponents smoke me with him before, after a good few turns you're staring down a 5/5- 7/7 monster

Humphrey

10-12-2009, 07:56 PM

rockout

10-12-2009, 08:01 PM

Pulp_Fiction

10-13-2009, 01:08 AM

Basically everything that has been mentioned is pretty good but cards like Shade and Hippie are kind of just average-weak now. Overall I would say Tombstalker is the best black creature followed closely by Dark Confidant.

I think Stinkweed Imp is also spectacular and very underplayed, blocks anything and comes back and can provide a quick clock while wearing equipment due to his evasion!

As far as black cards go, I think Bitterblossom (its like a creature in an enchantment way) is very underplayed but the problem is finding something that it can fit into.

undone

10-13-2009, 12:04 PM

Confidant hands down. Followed by tombstalker, theres a reason confidant sees play even in formats where he consistentaly 9's and 5's players with forces memory jars and inkwell leviathans:wink:

Cire

10-13-2009, 06:39 PM

I think the best option to go monoB at the moment is running a tweaked Vampiredeck.

Currently im testing this one

// Lands
16 [ALA] Swamp (1)
4 [REW] Wasteland
2 [CS] Dark Depths
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
1 [ZEN] Malakir Bloodwitch
4 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [ZEN] Vampire Lacerator
4 [M10] Vampire Nocturnus
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [M10] Duress
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MM] Dark Ritual

I was thinking more of;

Black Good Stuff v1

20 Swamps

4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 BloodGhast
2 Malakir Bloodwitch

4 Thoughtseize
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Torach
2 Cabal Therapy

---

seems pretty effective, plenty of creature kill, and plenty of discard. Bloodghast is good against control and is good with Cabal Therapy. Also all basics makes wasteland and its ilk useless...
the bloodwitch is a pro-white and is black, the closest mono-black can come to shroud, + flying so it's pretty sweet.

sunshine

10-13-2009, 09:34 PM

Progenitus</thread>

DragoFireheart

10-14-2009, 05:38 PM

This topic needs more Vampire Nighthawk:

- It can fly, so it can end games, even if a bit slowly.

- Nighthawks healing lets you make life for storm combo players more difficult (along with discard).

- It can trade with a Tarmogoyf. Always.

- It can trade with Tombstalker.

- It can do a decent job at racing creatures, resulting in a 4-health point shift. (Example, a 4/5 Tarmogoyf gets you to 16, you swing with the Nighthawk and go to 18, they are at 18).

- It costs 3, so it's more likely to get around Counter-Top.

- Stupid amazing with a Jitte.

Pomaxx

10-14-2009, 06:26 PM

in theory i fully agree on Nighthawk.

results have to follow to back up his true usefulness, thought.

DeMarki

10-21-2009, 02:50 PM

Since when did Nantuko Shade stop being viable? It's a great midgame beater and it shines once you start topdecking by turning all your unused swamps into raw damage.

I run them along with Tombstalkers in order to seal the game after a couple turns of early disruption and cheap creatures.

Esper3k

10-21-2009, 04:26 PM

Noone loves Demigod of Revenge?

Pastorofmuppets

10-21-2009, 05:05 PM

How has there been no direct mention of Carnophage/Lacerator?
Also, I'd like to tell you a little story about a little card called Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. You may have heard of him. His job is to take your Forces and your Dazes and your Counterspells, and shove the baby-arm deep into their throats. And he has good synergy with Crib Swap.

slylie

10-30-2009, 09:35 PM

How has there been no direct mention of Carnophage/Lacerator?

beacause they aren't good. Blacks most efficient creatures for a single mana, but they are really only just 2/2's with a drawback and no abilities which makes them nowhere near the top.

Also, I'd like to tell you a little story about a little card called Haakon, Stromgald Scourge. You may have heard of him. His job is to take your Forces and your Dazes and your Counterspells, and shove the baby-arm deep into their throats. And he has good synergy with Crib Swap.

Haakon would be much better if you could actually PLAY him, instead of needing a way to discard him. Even if his rules text said "when x comes into play, sac him if you played him from your hand."

I nominate Confidant, Tombstalker, and Nyxathid.

johanessen

10-30-2009, 09:39 PM

1.-Dark Confidant
2.-Bloodghast
3.-Tombstalker

Then comes Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, Shade, and other crap, not to menction Specter or Shriekmaw.

But well, black has the best creatures nowadays.

Illissius

10-30-2009, 10:24 PM

If Vampire Nighthawk is actually good I'll be pleasantly surprised, emphasis on the surprise. What usually happens with cards like these is I look at them, go "wow, this card is really neat. i like it. too bad it'll never see play." and then it doesn't.

Pastorofmuppets

10-31-2009, 12:36 AM

Haakon would be much better if you could actually PLAY him, instead of needing a way to discard him. Even if his rules text said "when x comes into play, sac him if you played him from your hand."

There's Entomb, SoTF, Oona's Prowler, and a personal favorite that is overlooked a little bit, Tortured Existence.

Forbiddian

10-31-2009, 01:27 AM

"Use a counter or a removal spell. If you don't, you're in deep shit" is about as good as you can ask of your turn 1 play.

No, it's not. For a 1 drop, that'd be great, but Hypnotic Specter requires a Ritual to get out. Putting two cards on the line when every deck in the format is packing removal is not a GG play. Against Zoo, there's like a 70% chance that you're just going to get 2:1d.

It's a good play, but still not as good as: SDT, Aether Vial, Ponder, Brainstorm, Goblin Lackey....

Goblin Lackey in particular asks the exact same question that Hypnotic Specter does, except Lackey does it without having to mini-combo a Dark Ritual into it.

Galroth

11-02-2009, 08:12 PM

It's barely caught any mention, but Bitterblossom is something to consider also. Works well in meekstone builds, and can turn a game if dropped early on.

My advice: if you're going purely mono-black, then get out of the Tombstalker/Negator fatty beat-down mode and migrate to more controlling cards like Confidant, Hyppie, Malakir, and Nighthawk. Tombstalker and Negator are tons better in splash decks like Red Death and Eva Green. They have unquestionably the better aggro game than mono-black.

Maveric78f

11-04-2009, 06:17 AM

I've tested NightHawk*4 and it's really good in a aggro-control deck. Its main weakness is that it gets destroyed by lighting bolt, but still, it can race or kill tarmogoyf. It's awesome as a jitte wearer (gain and deal 6 each turn).

Volrath

11-04-2009, 08:03 AM

Nighthawks are good, but i can't hwlp but think that his toughness of 3 is 1 to less against zoo en merfolk..

Maveric78f

11-04-2009, 08:28 AM

play bad moon ^^.

Black decks are usually bad against Merfolks. And you're right, Nighthawk won't help much (it's not completely bad neither). Against zoo, it's awesome if you back it up with discard on bolts/chains it's anticreature + 2 life if you don't have a dominating board, it's gg if you have a dominating board.

(nameless one)

11-04-2009, 08:39 AM

Royal Assassin
Stone-Throwing Devils
Juzam Djinn

Now that kicking it back old school!

I would say, these dudes are underrated:

Pump Knights - all of them are pro-white and thats half of the removal in legacy. Theyre black so most black removal doesnt hit them. Theyre really good late game if you have tons of mana and have nothing to do. They also have relevant evergreen abilities (flying and first strike)

Withered Wretch - the dude has the ability to shrink Goyfs... thats good right?

Shriekmaw - Terror with legs. Can be an emergency removal early game and can attack late game.

Vampire Nighthawk - 2/3 for 1BB usually isnt good but you add Flying, Lifelink and Deathtouch to that, its a mini Baneslayer Angel.

Vampire Hexmage - Everyone thinks shes only good with the DD combo, but really shes more than that. She could reset Vials and Jittes, kill Walkers, skew Ravagers and Bridges. At worst, she can take down an attacking Goblin Piledriver and still see another turn. Thats good on my books.

undone

11-04-2009, 10:01 AM

Going to go out on a limb and say

Ichorid
Dark confidant
Stinkweed imp

Honorable mention
Tombstalker

Seriously how can creatures that see that much play be in contention with trash like vampire nighthawk? I just dont understand.

Galroth

11-04-2009, 10:51 PM

You're forgetting about his opening post. He's got a mono-black aggro deck that he's working on. Ichorid and Putrid Imp don't really fit into that shell.

GUnit

11-16-2009, 09:29 AM

Your best bet for a monoblack creature-base is:

4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 x Tombstalker

+
X x Sensei's Divining Top

If you want more creatures, go for it, but those 12 are indispensible. Dark Confidant is arguably the best creature in the game and needs no justification. Gatekeeper is the most efficient nekrataal ever printed and he has the added bonus of being able to kill mongeese, tombstalkers, etc. Tombstalker is a brick house. He is very difficult for a lot of the decks in the format to deal with because he dodges popular answers such as threads, counterbalance, spell snare, vedalken shackles (your deck keeps them under 5 islands more than likely), burn, submerge, etc. Once in a while bob will reveal tomby and it will suck, which is one of the reasons you play top, but the rest of the time he's going to be your MVP.

Skeggi

11-16-2009, 10:10 AM

Seriously how can creatures that see that much play be in contention with trash like vampire nighthawk? I just dont understand.
You're underestimating the card. It's actually pretty good.

SilverGreen

11-20-2009, 04:10 PM

Seriously how can creatures that see that much play be in contention with trash like vampire nighthawk? I just dont understand.You're underestimating the card. It's actually pretty good.
I fully agree here. I have been playing Nighthawk for a while now and I'm 100% sure it's one of the best utility creatures released since Future Sight. Many people remains skeptcal about it, but it's just because they're a bit too lazy to put aside their safe and guaranteed cake recipes and stone-cold, message board learned Magic theories, even for a short period. There's a number of reasons going for Jacko, but no one will realize it as long as they insist in treat the card as just a bad Tarmogoyf or a bad Tombstalker, or capitalize in the fact that it dies to the exact same kind of removal every other creature in the format dies.

I'll not say to one exchange the Tombstalkers in Team America, for example, but try to build and play a deck in where it's capable to shine, and see the results. I simply don't understand why people is capable of going nuts with clearly bad new things like Lorescale Coatl, and doesn't see the potential of a great card like Nighthawk.

chokin

11-20-2009, 04:23 PM

Throwing Ashenmoor Gouger into the arena here. 3 mana 4/4 is pretty nuts. It just sucks that he can't block.

Dilettante

11-20-2009, 04:47 PM

Agreed with many of the sentiments posted on Vampire Nighthawk. Considering what it has to deal with, how many creatures can chump block a Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tomb Stalker, Tarmogoyf, everything in Dragon Stompy except Rakdos Pit Dragon, kill it, and still net 2 life? It dies to... burn, path, swords... but you can't have everything. It is simply very good utility. Gatekeeper of Malakir is just bloody efficient in a format that lacks early creature spam saving Zoo, Fish, Goblins, and rogue decks. Adding Vampire Hexmage being efficiently costed and good against certain decks while being a new efficient combo enabler makes for three very good uncommons in one set.

I'll have to go with:
Dark Confidant
Tombstalker
Gatekeeper of Malakir
Vampire Nighthawk
Hypnotic Specter
Disciple of the Vault
Black Knight
Vampire Hexmage
Nantuko Shade
Bloodghast (Prefer it over Ichorid, which is IMO much more situational)

SpencerForHire

11-21-2009, 12:35 AM

Your best bet for a monoblack creature-base is:

4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 x Tombstalker

+
X x Sensei's Divining Top

Top is not going to single handedly make you not hit Tombstalker. Similarly, I have seen very few decks that can support let alone give a supportive reason why to run 4x Tomstalker. 2-3 is a strong maybe, 2 in a deck with Bob. Blindly running 4 just because "it is good" is really sort of anti-synergistic as is (due to it's Delve and all).

Tacosnape

11-23-2009, 08:57 PM

Throwing Ashenmoor Gouger into the arena here. 3 mana 4/4 is pretty nuts. It just sucks that he can't block.

Actually, 3 mana 4/4 is pretty weak in Legacy currently unless two of the mana is colorless, and even then the card needs to do something else, not have drawbacks.

Three-mana guys in Legacy need to either be ungodly huge or have a dual purpose.

In any case, I update my previous list and now set this as the top three Black:

1. Dark Confidant
2. Gatekeeper of Malakir
3. Bloodghast

Pastorofmuppets

11-23-2009, 09:22 PM

what do you guys think about Ashenmoor Liege?

Tacosnape

11-23-2009, 09:44 PM

what do you guys think about Ashenmoor Liege?

Doesn't do shit for 4 mana. Vampire Nocturnus does WAY more for four mana, and his playability in Legacy is questionable at best.

Nihil Credo

11-23-2009, 10:02 PM

Tacosnape

11-24-2009, 12:41 AM

Playable (hardcast) 4cc black guys:

- Braids
- Graveborn Muse
- Grinning Demon
- Korlash

Potentially playable:

- Eastern Paladin
- Horobi, Death's Wail
- Undead Warchief / Grave Defiler
- Vampire Nocturnus

and I believe that's about it. I also like Creakwood Liege, but too many things need to go right for him to be strong.

You're easier on "Playable" than I am. At the moment, I don't consider Grinning Demon, Korlash, Horobi, Eastern Paladin, or Graveborn Muse to be playable. One of my teammates uses Braids in a Smallpox/Stax hybrid, so I'll buy into that, and I'll acknowledge that the zombie pumpers and Nocturnus could have marginal space in their respective tribal decks.

BreathWeapon

11-24-2009, 01:30 AM

DukeDemonKn1ght

11-24-2009, 02:56 AM

If the meta rotates out Zoo and rotates in aggro-control as the DTB I think Nighthawk might actually be decent in UGB Threshold, the problem tho' is that Clique is such a high barrier to entry.

It really needs an ass of 4, sigh.

Besides Tarmogoyf though, what other playable creatures that cost three mana or less have an ass of four? Rhox War Monk and... What else?

The point I'm making here is that Nighthawk's stats are good enough to be playable in the right deck... It's not, um, broken, and unfortunately, that's the yardstick we judge creatures by these days. I think right now Nighthawk's just a good, balanced card in search of the right list to use it.

The fact that War Monk sees play should be enough to
prove this guy's viable, since he's -1/-1, plus two good abilities, and in one color instead of three.

FoulQ

11-24-2009, 03:05 AM

The fact that War Monk sees play should be enough toprove this guy's viable, since he's -1/-1, plus two good abilities, and in one color instead of three.

No.

No, because every other common threat has 3 or less power: enough to kill nighthawk, not enough to kill war monk.

No, the +1 power makes a big difference: RWM is strong because you can easily race an aggro deck and force them into a defensive position. They have to answer RWM, but often can't. Nighthawk is less swingy and dies to any red spell. So RWM forces them into the defensive position. And once you've forced the aggro deck into defense, half the battle is already won.

And no, the one color of nighthawk forces you to go heavy black, which is not very easy to pull off for the common decks in legacy. However, UGW combinations are and have been for a long time a popular combination, because you get goyf + swords + blue, so RWM has fit very nicely into those shells without much of a problem.

Putting it into context shows that RWM is good in aggro metas, while nighthawk is currently bad until proven decent.

Cthuloo

11-24-2009, 05:17 AM

I think Nighthawk has still to find a home. It has a lot of potential, however, requiring :b: :b: means that the only decks that can reliably cast it are not Tier 1 at the moment. I tested it in a BU control shell and it's really great in gaining time for the deck. Unfortunately the deck lacked a good finisher (Tombstalker is bad with Bob, Psychatog is simply not enough) and splashing a third color for goyf makes hard to always hit the double black on turn three.
I also tested it in a Demon Stompy shell, and again it was great every time I managed to play it, but two colored mana is something the deck not always has.

We still have to find the right place for Nighthawk, but I think that sooner or later someone will :wink:

Maveric78f

11-24-2009, 05:53 AM

Besides Tarmogoyf though, what other playable creatures that cost three mana or less have an ass of four? Rhox War Monk and... What else?
Just lol, lmao and all.

Off my head:
W: Jotun Grunt
G: Terravore
B: Tombstalker
R: Countryside Crusher, Taurean Mauler
U: Wake Thrasher, Serendib Efreet
Art: Phyrexian Dreadnought, Epochrasite, Master of Etherium, Myr Enforcer
Gold: Knight of the Reliquary, RWM, Putrid Leech, Lorescale Coatl, Burning Tree Shaman, Doran, the Siege Tower

Skeggi

11-24-2009, 08:14 AM

We still have to find the right place for Nighthawk, but I think that sooner or later someone will :wink:

In the Dutch Championships a guy ran his deck named 'Thresh AM', which is basically UGB Tempo Thresh, with Aether Vial. He ended in the top8. Check out the list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Recoil
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Poluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of Disloyalty

Happy Gilmore

11-24-2009, 08:42 AM

It always amazes me how these piles make T8s.

jazzykat

11-24-2009, 09:47 AM

In the Dutch Championships a guy ran his deck named 'Thresh AM', which is basically UGB Tempo Thresh, with Aether Vial. He ended in the top8. Check out the list:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Recoil
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Poluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
2 Threads of Disloyalty

He sure does have a surprise factor going for him. I can't believe his removal is bounce/discard. Recoil FTW!

Illissius

11-24-2009, 09:52 AM

Yeah that's a weird-ass deck.

All this talk about Vampire Nighthawk always reminds me of Tidehollow Strix.

Skeggi

11-24-2009, 09:59 AM

Yeah, about those Recoils: he didn't like them and they'll probably be cut.

o13g

11-24-2009, 10:13 AM

It always amazes me how these piles make T8s.

I'd have to agree.
No offense, but this 'deck' looks like a pile of on-color legacy legal cards.
And Vials? Srsly?

Skeggi

11-24-2009, 10:16 AM

Perhaps I should start a different thread to discuss this deck in N&D. I can explain a few choices. It's not as random as it seems. Anyhoo, I'm too lazy... But I'll say this: top8 at a 138 player tournament is pretty okay in my books.

jazzykat

11-24-2009, 10:43 AM

My question is did he win by opponents going WTF and playing around good MD cards that they assumed would show up (i.e. tombstalker, smother/putrefy, etc.) or because his deck was actually good?

What does vampire nighthawk have to do with anything?
Were the recoils supposed to be smothers?
Why vials?

I just keeping look at this and shaking my head in confusion.

Skeggi

11-24-2009, 11:40 AM

He had the following match-ups:
Quilspike
The Rock
Aggro Loam
CounterTop.deck
Landstill
DD-ANT
He won all these matches. The last 2 rounds in the swiss he ID'd. He lost in the quarterfinals to ANT due to 'bad draws' according to him. On to your questions:

What does vampire nighthawk have to do with anything?
According to the guy it was the game winning card agains Quilspike, The Rock and CounterTop. Against Quilspike because of Deathtouch, against the other decks because of Flying + Lifelink.

Were the recoils supposed to be smothers?
I don't think so. But as I said before, it's the weakest card in the deck and up for debate.

Why vials?
Next to the fact that Aether Vial makes sure you can drop your creatures and bomb your opponent with a Hymn to Tourach, I suppose he expected alot of CounterTop.

That's all I can say for it. I'm a bit perplexed by the list myself, but there are things that can be explained. Perhaps he's onto something here.

DukeDemonKn1ght

11-24-2009, 12:13 PM

Maveric78f

11-24-2009, 01:35 PM

My point is that your argument really doesn't disprove what I was saying at all.
My point was definitely not to counterargue your position on Nighthawk since I'm also a big defender of this creature. My point was clearly to be smart. But you can nickname me if you wish.

Tao

11-24-2009, 01:49 PM

The best creature is Confidant with no rivals.

2nd are a lot of deck specific creatures like Tombstalker, Bloodghast, Shade, Nighthawk, Ichorid and Stinkweed Imp.

jimirynk

11-24-2009, 01:51 PM

Top black creatures in LEGACY
1.Stinkweed imp
2.Putrid imp
3.Ichorid

I don't care if your all in love with Bob its just not played enough at the top tables to say its one of the best black creatures in LEGACY.

Top black creatures in all formats
1. Stinkweed imp
2. Bob
3 Prog

GUnit

11-24-2009, 04:22 PM

So if you weren't so busy being a smart-ass... You might have noticed that out of the creatures you listed, only a couple of them have an ass that is 4 or greater non-conditionally.

Besides Serendib, RWM, Jotun Grunt, Doran, and Burning Tree Shaman (and sure, that guy's playable if you're really high... Wtf?)-- all the other creatures you listed are either scaleable, meaning that there are hate cards which will shrink them, or else they cost more resources to cast than just their mana cost +1 card (Tombstalker, Dreqdnought).

Whatever. My point is that your argument really doesn't disprove what I was saying at all.

That's not really fair. You start by saying "besides Tarmogoyf" which is clearly also scaleable.

dahcmai

11-24-2009, 04:28 PM

Marit Lage is black. Heh, had to toss it in.

Ducks from flying rocks.

Illissius

11-24-2009, 04:44 PM

So is the consensus that Vampire Nighthawk might be good, but Tidehollow Strix definitely isn't?

BreathWeapon

11-24-2009, 05:19 PM

Strix doesn't race, Lifelink is Nighthawk's saving grace.

keys

11-24-2009, 08:27 PM

Strix doesn't race, Lifelink is Nighthawk's saving grace. It's also not blue and not artifact.

Michael Keller

11-24-2009, 11:03 PM

I just skimmed at least the last two pages and couldn't find Tombstalker anywhere. He certainly has a right to be there; he is turning up in A LOT of decks as either a main or alternate win condition. Double-black in the cost or not; he's delicious.

Of course, there's Dark Confidant and the usual Ichorid suspects. But I also feel another underrated black creature currently in the format is Yixlid Jailer. He is relatively easy to knock off (like most of the better creatures can be anyways), and he doesn't see a whole lot of play, but gets an honorable mention in my eyes for his permanent ability to just shut down practically an entire deck (Ichorid) all by himself. It's a very unique ability and merits inclusion in the discussion.

Skeggi

11-25-2009, 02:48 AM

If we're going to mention Yixlid Jailer, we might as well mention Street Wraith and Faerie Macabre. They also have unique abilities.

SilverGreen

11-26-2009, 07:28 AM

Just lol, lmao and all.

Off my head:
W: Jotun Grunt
G: Terravore
B: Tombstalker
R: Countryside Crusher, Taurean Mauler
U: Wake Thrasher, Serendib Efreet
Art: Phyrexian Dreadnought, Epochrasite, Master of Etherium, Myr Enforcer
Gold: Knight of the Reliquary, RWM, Putrid Leech, Lorescale Coatl, Burning Tree Shaman, Doran, the Siege TowerSo if you weren't so busy being a smart-ass... You might have noticed that out of the creatures you listed, only a couple of them have an ass that is 4 or greater non-conditionally.

Besides Serendib, RWM, Jotun Grunt, Doran, and Burning Tree Shaman (and sure, that guy's playable if you're really high... Wtf?)-- all the other creatures you listed are either scaleable, meaning that there are hate cards which will shrink them, or else they cost more resources to cast than just their mana cost +1 card (Tombstalker, Dreqdnought).

Whatever. My point is that your argument really doesn't disprove what I was saying at all.So the discussion now is to prove who has the smarter ass? Someone starts a discussion proposing the king of conditional & efficient creatures, but barries the entry of others conditional but efficient creatures, because they're efficient, but conditional. Nice point, that's really very smart. Perhaps we should start splashing B in UWG decks, so we could cast Dorans and Rhoxes together, and start complaining about "OMG how they're so broken!" or "holy crap, what a sucker are this cards!". In one way or another, there's always a point of trueness available, to prove the thesis of advocates of every cause here.

FoolofaTook

12-04-2009, 11:12 AM

One of the things that's really interesting about the Legacy meta as compared to the original (single format) meta is how few really good big black creatures there are that can be cheated into play early using Dark Ritual.

The original meta had Juzam Djinn and Sengir Vampire, who were clearly bigger than anything any other color (Juggernaut was the other cheater creature) could cheat into play early. It had Erg Raiders, who were as big and survivable as any 2cc creature in the game. It got reinforcements you could splash into decks that weren't even heavily black, like Derelor.

Somewhere along the way between the original flavor of Magic and the one we play now the character of black as a color changed. We don't have those huge creatures you can cheat into play effectively any more. The closest we come is the very recently introduced Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths combo and that's not really the same thing because it does not rely on fast mana to put out the asset.

keys

12-04-2009, 01:42 PM

Somewhere along the way between the original flavor of Magic and the one we play now the character of black as a color changed. We don't have those huge creatures you can cheat into play effectively any more. The closest we come is the very recently introduced Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths combo and that's not really the same thing because it does not rely on fast mana to put out the asset.

One word: Tombstalker.

FoolofaTook

12-04-2009, 03:34 PM

One word: Tombstalker.

Does not land turn 1. Ritual-Ritual-Sengir used to be a very good chance at a win. Tombstalker lands turn 3 usually, although you can get it down turn 2 with a fetch and a couple of rituals.

What's interesting to me is that the overall strategy of using several cards to promote a big beater turn 1 was a go-for-broke play that made somebody lose fast, either an StP on the vampire or djinn causing a loss or lack thereof leading to a win. it wasn't a world-beating play because it was high risk/high reward. That's what has been lost for black at this point. Now that kind of move is high risk/low reward.

Something bigger would have to be available for it to become a high risk/high reward move again and at the moment really only storm combo has that available.

In terms of power curve on creatures:

1995

Green - Grizzly Bears
Black - Sengir Vampire

2009

Green - Tarmogoyf
Black - ? (and no, Tombstalker doesn't compare very well in terms of the relative power curve between green and black)

Edit: I guess Divinity of Pride comes the closest in a pure black or black with white splash deck.

Illissius

12-04-2009, 03:47 PM

FoolofaTook

12-04-2009, 04:01 PM

I think a more accurate example on the green side would be Ernham Djinn. People didn't actually play Grizzly Bears, as far as I know. But yeah, the result is similar.

This is in part due to R&D realizing that if green is going to be the creature color, it should at least have the best creatures.

Actually I had problems coming up with the green creature for 1995 because pure green decks just didn't exist and things like Erhnam Djinn were mainly played in black, red and blue decks splashing green for the djinn and maybe tranquility or something similar.

The red/green decks that actually had a lot of green in them tended to have mana creatures, Ghazban Ogres, Grizzly Bears, Erhnam Djinn and maybe Killer Bees now and then. Green really did not have a lot of tourney worthy creatures because it was the color of big, whonking beat sticks that you could never get in play against a good deck.

Black was the color of fast mana and medium-large beaters that actually landed early. Juzam Djinn was probably the most powerful creature in the format because the only answers to it were StP, Spirit Link or Paralyze and it consistently landed turn 1 or 2 if you had it in your hand at the start.

I think looking at the current meta that this is just going to turn into another Tarmogoyf whine so I'm willing to let it go at this point. Black hasn't gotten a lot worse in terms of fast creatures, it's just Tarmogoyf is so much better than anything black has available that it doesn't matter. Decks playing fast black creatures are playing them alongside Tarmogoyf.

Zinch

12-04-2009, 04:37 PM

Does not land turn 1. Ritual-Ritual-Sengir used to be a very good chance at a win. Tombstalker lands turn 3 usually, although you can get it down turn 2 with a fetch and a couple of rituals.

You can fetch-ritual-ritual-Tombstalker as well, so in this matter is the modern equivalence of the vampire

bulaxas

12-09-2009, 07:30 PM

1.º - DARK CONFIDANT

i dont understand this discussion...even in vintage is awesome...tombstalker, putrid imp...omg not even close

caiomarcos

12-09-2009, 11:04 PM

Actually I had problems coming up with the green creature for 1995 because pure green decks just didn't exist and things like Erhnam Djinn were mainly played in black, red and blue decks splashing green for the djinn and maybe tranquility or something similar.

The red/green decks that actually had a lot of green in them tended to have mana creatures, Ghazban Ogres, Grizzly Bears, Erhnam Djinn and maybe Killer Bees now and then. Green really did not have a lot of tourney worthy creatures because it was the color of big, whonking beat sticks that you could never get in play against a good deck.

People played Spectral Bears in mono G. sigh

Back to black, I'll go with many others and say Dark Confidant. It's the only creature discussed so far that has no substitutes. For every other creature, like Tombstalker, Specter, Nighthawk and even Putrid Imp and Ichorid, you can replace it with another creature that would perform the same or equivalent role. Not Dark Confidant.