[Deck] Bant Aggro (w/o CounterTop and Progenitus)

[Tarmogoyf]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16059

[Tarmogoyf]

...

[Kuma]

Don't care about countertop lock and natural order/progenitus combo.

You should care.

You really, really should.

[Hanni]

Just because the deck can win without CounterTop doesn't mean it shouldn't run CounterTop.

[Jon Stewart]

To the people who say this deck has to play Countertop. You're missing the point. It's not that kind of deck. Bant Aggro is basically The Rock, but playing blue to give it access to countermagic and cantrips/better card quality. Most of its cards have a cc of 3. So it dodges your opponents countertops without any difficulty, but also has a harder time abusing countertop itself.

It's an awesome strategy actually. You play a ton of creatures all of which absolutely must be countered, or your opponents get overwhelmed with threats and die.

OP, you should have posted a better list. There is NO reason not to play Natural Order. Natural Order + Progenitus is an awesome combo that slides perfectly into this deck, especially with access to Brainstorm

There is not much reason to play Bant Charm imo. There's so many better options. I see tons of decks ripping up my metagame playing...

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemade
3 knight of reliquary/lorescale coatl/coldeyed selkie
3 kitchen finks/rhox war monk/vendillion clique
2 kira, glass spinner/sower of temptation/rafiq of many
4 natural order
1 progenitus
4 brainstorm
4 fow

I'm not sure on the exact lists. I've seen all those cards played. Just overwhelm you with big creatures with countertop, lots of counters and blue cantrips backing them up.

Some lists play countertop and some don't. But they top 8 pretty much every week at my shop and I saw them top 8 many mws online tourneys.

In short OP, instead of posting a list that's not all that great, you should post a primer discussing all of the above cards.

[Hanni]

It doesn't matter if you play the deck like the Rock or not. There's absolutely no reason to not run CounterTop. The combo is busted, easily fits into the shell, and wins a large number of games on its own.

If you want to build and play the deck more like the Rock, guys like Trygon Predator need dropped for bigger guys like Lorescale Coatl or Knight of the Reliquary, and the number of [creature] removal spells needs increased.

Regardless, I don't see what matchups you improve upon by dropping CounterTop. I can quickly name a handful of matchups that you weaken by dropping it.

If the deck ran Natural Order and Progenitus, that could be a different story. As it stands now, I see no advantages of a CounterTop-less (and Natural Order-less) Bant approach.

[Waikiki]

@hanni

I would test first before making such comments. In certain meta's BANT aggro can have its advantages over CB top decks. If you'd check deckcheck it would agree with me. Not saying its "better" then UGW(x) CB top. But its certainly viable. Even more when your meta is allready prepared for CB top.

[Misplayer]

From the list in the opening post, how many matchups are you going to improve by running Stifle and Bant Charm over CounterTop??

I'm telling you, once you go CounterTop you never go back. And if you do you immediately regret it.

[miko]

Running CB or not depends on what kind of play-style you prefer. I personally like it not to play CB/Top. This even has influence on the results i get. Usually my results are better without CB/Top, because i play more relaxed and less stressed.
And it depends on your playskills, too. CB/Top is in my opinion not easy to play. It is frequently said that good players play blue in legacy. I'm not sure if I'm a good player but I try to play blue with different results. My rating-range is from 1850-1770. But i think CB/Top is to difficult for me to play.
Because of that very reasons i recently cut CB and played a more TempoThresh-orientated version of UGW that is - as far a I am concerned - way better to play. This is because it play just like a straight TempoThresh including ways to be able to have influence on the midgame.

I conclude from that points that it is just a personal preference if to play CB/Top or not. I don't want to talk about improved matchups either, but i have to say that cutting CB/Top did not make any matchups less winable...
So cutting CB/Top does not effect you chances of winning.

Btw.: I would cut Bant Charm, too. And i run Nimble Mongoose, ...

That's my list. Feel free to discuss...

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Progenitus
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Nimble Mongoose

3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island

4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
4 Stifle

Sideboard:
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Krosan Grip
1 Empyrial Archangel
4 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Submerge

[La_Hire]

Though I admit I have no experience in playing Tempotresh, I feel like UGW Tempotresh plan is just weaker than its UGR brother due to the fact that the red splash simply better facilitates its gameplan. I am telling the truth when I say that tempo Thrash tries to destroy the opponents early mana development with stifle/waste and uses cheap/free counter to keep the field clean of problematic cards, then drops a creature to capitalize on this situation right?
Tempotresh plays way more aggressively than its countertop variant (it has to) because it doesnt contain the mid/late game softlock.

I want to compare your list to the UGR variant in the primer of the tempotresh thread:

4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire / Ice

I would probably add some Vendillion Cliques to this as this deck can suffer from the problem Team America does, too few threats.

At the expense of burn, draw and bouncers you play way more green creatures, swords to plowshares and the natural order combo.

First of all; noble hierarch works well with natural order but not with tempo thresh. I have played a lot against UGR Thrash, and my experience is that they often want to keep lands open to stifle my first fetch/ bolt my first critter EOT (if on the play), or counter my first bomb with spell snare (when on draw).

Swords to plowshares is also rather weak compared to the burn. Swords to plowshares gives life and therefore is weaker against small creatures; it is only stronger against tombstalker, dreadnought and tarmogoyf. The first two should never be allowed to resolve unless you have bounce of some kind (the list runs 2 bounce spells). I often felt that UGR Thrash can answer opposing goyfs with bolts as well, as these matches often turn out in goyf-standoffs, and burn can deliver the last point of damage after combat damage.

Then compare UGR's backup plan (bounce + 8 burn) to Bants backup plan (Progenitus combo). One should understimate the power of a progenitus but this plan often doesnt solve the problems your plan A:(tarmo/mongoose/rhox?) beatdown. Burn/bounce helps to solve ground stalls and allows your creatures to kick in for the win, just like progenitus will win the game in two turns. However, if you cant win by creature damage (perhaps due to a resolved moat/humility), burn provides the reach you may need, and the bounce can allow you to make one alpha strike for the win.
Also I would like to point out UGR Thrash is way less vulnerable to magus of the moon.

Overall I think the red splash helps you way better than white with what you want to achieve; maybe your list is the best UGW tempotresh list around, but most certainly not the best tempotresh list in general. Due to the defensive nature of cards like swords to plowshares and rhox war monk you are probably better of playing UGW countertop ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

Have to go to college now, cya

La Hire

[Sevryn]

Bant charm seems kind of weak to me. And path to exile seems better than swords to plowshares... why give the opponent life as agro?

[Hanni]

Running Wasteland seems retarded in a deck that wants to resolve a 4cc sorcery.

Secondly, white a controlling color. If you want tempo aggression, burn is better than lifegain or a free land.

As I said originally, if you run Natural Order, I can understand not running CounterTop. Natural Order is a different engine. The thread title says w/o both, and simply wants to just play G/W guys in a "blue rock" shell, which I think is /fail. Guys like Doran and Tombstalker outclass guys like Rhox War Monk in a Rock strategy.

However, once you toss either CounterTop, Natural Order, or both into the mix... you have a good deck.

[Cenarius]

Well Hanni,

I also think you should not be so negative about this deck. I played against it in a tournament with Tempo Threshold. I really had no idea what he played, athough at the second game I started to think he played BANT AGRO (did not see any CB/top yet). Their creatures are way more imba than mine (he played kitchkin finks LOL!?, that's like not fair against my Mongoose).

Althought I would never play the deck, I would for certain play 3 tops. Sensei divining top is probably the best card in Legacy. Playing 3 will improve your draws, O' really? I would also play Lorescale Coatle if you play 3 tops.

I would play something like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Lorescale Coatle
2 Vendillion Clique

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I would not play Noble Hierarch. I just belief its just not good enough for Legacy.

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath

[miko]

I've played TempoThresh for three years now and i really don't like it anymore. It just has one strategy. No variation possible. And that sucks a lot. But: The Bant Aggro Plan with or without Natural Order is fun to play, just because you have different ways of playing it. It's not just laying down a Mongoose or a Goyf and pray that you have enough speed to kill your op before he could stabilize.
But that's only due to my personal impression of TT. I'm just in the process of finding a new deck. And I really like Bant in Legacy as well as this thread because the discussion is pretty fruitful.

Running Wasteland seems retarded in a deck that wants to resolve a 4cc sorcery.
Resolving NO is one winning condition. And it's only retarded on the first sight. If you would just have a closer look you could see that we do play around 20 lands and Noble Hierarch. Even with Wasteland we have enough mana to play it. Btw. Countertop/B often does play Wastelands as well as Sowers... I mean it's not as dependent on sower as we might be on NO but it actually plays sower...


The thread title says w/o both, and simply wants to just play G/W guys in a "blue rock" shell, which I think is /fail.

What do you mean by that? As far is I understand the thread it's like it wants to include all attempts on Bant Aggro - e.g. the last two lists posted by tarmogoyf play aggro including NO but no CB. And that pretty successfully: Nishikawa had a top4 finish in the Japan Legacy Champs which is pretty good i think.

[Jon Stewart]

Natural order is a one card combo. You play NO and if your opponent can't answer it asap, you win. There is no reason not to play it if your curve supports it.

Countertop is overrated.

Yes it's good. But At the end of the day, it's a two card combo that's not a hard lock, or a combo that wins you the game within a turn or two like stiflenought and vampire depths combos do.

CB is mostly useless on it's own, top is useful but other two card combos above cost less mana and have one useful card too (stifle). And it's worse than NO.

So yes I went there CB Top is solid but it's not the god combo you guys make it out to be. And it doesn't belong in every single deck as you guys claim. This deck doesn't play a curve or enough cantrips to make it worth playing.

[Jon Stewart]

I honestly don't know if this counts as more bant aggro or countertop. I think it's countertop but it's extremely aggressive.

Let me know what you think and what changes you would make. Yes I play 4 NO, they are soo good not to. I don't think CB is a bad card. I just think NO is better.

15 land
1 island
1 forest
1 dryad arbor

4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 natural order
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top

4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
3 rhox war monk
1 rafiq of the many
1 progenitus

Here's alternatives I considered but I'm not playing..
lorescale coatl (not enough ponder top)
knight of reliquary (can cut goyf for)
kitchen finks (RWM strictly better)
vendillion clique (not green for NO)
coldeyed selkie (only good if islandwalk)
sower of temptation (already 5 4cc)
mystic enforcer (already 5 4cc played)
nimble mongoose (weak and slow)

I'm playing Rafiq as both alternate NO target and as a great beatstick on his own. I can cut a Qasali and a land for 2 Ponder.

[Tarmogoyf]

Update a Bant Aggro with Qasali Pridemage. 4 x noble/qasali/rwm/tarmo is wonderful.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29418

creature [20]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Vendilion Clique

instant [18]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

artifact [2]
2 Sensei's Divining Top

land [19]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

planeswalker [1]
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Pro Bant

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29511

creature [18]
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator

instant [18]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [6]
3 Natural Order
3 Ponder

land [19]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
4 Path to Exile
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte

BTW, use mystical tutor to find natural order is a good idea for pro bant.

[Kangaxx]

Has UGW Thresh really died out for this to be the superior deck? What are the main perogatives for running this over Thresh?

[Kuma]

Why not just run Surviving Bant? It's pretty much Pro Bant - CounterTop and Natural Order + Survival stuff.

Why is this deck better without Natural Order, CounterTop, and/or Survival?