[Rumor] Duel Deck: Phyrexia vs. the Coalition

[Digital Devil]

http://wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/298_xo40r0rs97.jpg


Relive the most epic battle in Magic: The Gathering history.

The scourge known as the Phyrexian plane of Rath has been overlayed upon Dominaria. Single-minded and with an unyielding goal to eliminate all in their path, the mono-black Phyrexian army is filled with a variety of efficient killing machines.

For Dominaria, victory is the only option. The Coalition, representing the five colors of Magic, has united under the leadership of Gerrard Capashen to combat the Phyrexian invaders.

http://wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/298_splashbanner.jpg

When two forces that are polar opposites wage war, sheer devastation can be the only outcome. The question remains: Where will you stand?

http://wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/298_55sv2rgadz.jpg

Deck Design and Development: Chris Millar, Mike Turian, and Matt Tabak
Release Date: March 19th, 2010
MSRP: $19.99

http://wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/298_symbols.jpg

Seems interesting!!!

[Otter]

I suspect that it's going to be Duel Decks: Monoblack shitstomps some five-color monstrosity with a horrid manabase.

I'm also skeptical of what sort of (semi)playable cards are going to be in these things. Phyrexian Negator is on the reserved list and the Coalition deck is going to be full of Weatherlight crewmembers, all of which are absolutely terrible outside of EDH. At least Garruk vs Liliana looks like it's going to have Rancor and Snuff Out.

[Aggro_zombies]

I suspect that it's going to be Duel Decks: Monoblack shitstomps some five-color monstrosity with a horrid manabase.

I'm also skeptical of what sort of (semi)playable cards are going to be in these things. Phyrexian Negator is on the reserved list and the Coalition deck is going to be full of Weatherlight crewmembers, all of which are absolutely terrible outside of EDH. At least Garruk vs Liliana looks like it's going to have Rancor and Snuff Out.
Have you looked at the Phyrexian roster? The average casting cost of Phyrexians is three to four mana. Combine that with the fact that most of them are small, and you end up with an army of overcosted, underpowered guys who can't get there before the five-color monstrosity gets its mana together and starts activating Legacy Weapon every turn.

[Otter]

Have you looked at the Phyrexian roster? The average casting cost of Phyrexians is three to four mana. Combine that with the fact that most of them are small, and you end up with an army of overcosted, underpowered guys who can't get there before the five-color monstrosity gets its mana together and starts activating Legacy Weapon every turn.

True that there aren't that many good Phyrexians, but Arena, Ghoul, Totem, Scuta, and Plaguelord are all decent. And hey, to balance it out, the Coalitoin deck is going to have to try to cast hands involving a pile of Hanna, Mirri, and Tahngarth. Maybe it'll balance out, but either way, I'm not expecting many playable cards, it sounds like something more for the people who enjoy the storyline a lot.

[Nidd]

I will laugh my ass off when the Phyrexians really get Yawgmoth's Bargain.

[DragoFireheart]

I suspect that it's going to be Duel Decks: Monoblack shitstomps some five-color monstrosity with a horrid manabase.

I'm also skeptical of what sort of (semi)playable cards are going to be in these things. Phyrexian Negator is on the reserved list and the Coalition deck is going to be full of Weatherlight crewmembers, all of which are absolutely terrible outside of EDH. At least Garruk vs Liliana looks like it's going to have Rancor and Snuff Out.


Which is why wizards didn't remake stuff for From the Vault that was on the reserved listed. Also, they totally didn't put power nine in Zenidkar packs Nope, they did none of that...

[Bigface]

Also, Vindicate and Pernicious Deed are both "based" on actions of Coalition members (Freyalise and Gerrard). So...

[Aggro_zombies]

Which is why wizards didn't remake stuff for From the Vault that was on the reserved listed. Also, they totally didn't put power nine in Zenidkar packs Nope, they did none of that...
1) The reserved list keeps them from making non-premium versions of the cards,
2) The cards from the Zendikar boxes were original printings, and the reserved list governs the reprinting of the cards on it.

Neither of the things you mentioned violate Wizards' reprint policy (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy).

Now, the art in the banner looks an awful lot like Phyrexian Negator. Forsythe is known to have a passionate hatred for the reserved list, so there is a possibility they'll get rid of it before they start selling the duel decks (either that, or the Phyrexian foil rare will be Negator).

[DragoFireheart]

1) The reserved list keeps them from making non-premium versions of the cards,



And how is this not a premium version? It's not like PN is gonna start showing up at FNM now with this little duel deck.

Oh, and before you get too comfortable, explain Twincast (which blatantly breaks their own policy ala Fork)

There's a large chance of seeing the Negator, seeing how the power creep as all but made him useless.

[Aggro_zombies]

And how is this not a premium version? It's not like PN is gonna start showing up at FNM now with this little duel deck.
"Premium" means foil. These deck's aren't foil, with the exception of the two mythics.


Oh, and before you get too comfortable, explain Twincast (which blatantly breaks their own policy ala Fork)
Again, this doesn't violate the reserved list policies. Read the official reprint policy I linked.

[DragoFireheart]

Again, this doesn't violate the reserved list policies. Read the official reprint policy I linked.


Actually, it blatantly violates the policy. Read the article again. (See Fork).

Twincast is functionally the same as Fork, except it's in a (arguably) better color.



Now, the art in the banner looks an awful lot like Phyrexian Negator. Forsythe is known to have a passionate hatred for the reserved list, so there is a possibility they'll get rid of it before they start selling the duel decks (either that, or the Phyrexian foil rare will be Negator).


I could see them doing this. I mean, Wizards is pretty conservative about the reserved/banned lists (wasn't Berserk on the reserved list once). I'd rather they didn't make it foil though since I hate foils.

[Aggro_zombies]

Actually, it blatantly violates the policy. Read the article again.

Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
Twincast = :u::u:
Fork = :r::r:

:u::u: =/= :r::r:

At least, it didn't the last time I checked.

[Melman]

Actually, it blatantly violates the policy. Read the article again.

I've read it. I don't know what you're talking about. It does nothing of the sort. Reading comprehension is worthwhile when posting.

On topic: I'm surprised these duel decks keep selling enough to warrant printing more and more of them. It seems like it would be easy for most players to make their own balanced decks with cards they have, and save $20. It's not like they're putting staples in these things. I just don't quite get it; is it just a laziness thing? Or is it purely for new(er) players?

[Aggro_zombies]

I've read it. I don't know what you're talking about. It does nothing of the sort. Reading comprehension is worthwhile when posting.

On topic: I'm surprised these duel decks keep selling enough to warrant printing more and more of them. It seems like it would be easy for most players to make their own balanced decks with cards they have, and save $20. It's not like they're putting staples in these things. I just don't quite get it; is it just a laziness thing? Or is it purely for new(er) players?
Sure, you can make your own balanced decks and use two of them to play against your friend. People have been doing this since the game's inception.

These are aimed at a variety of people: collectors looking for these cards in the new card frame or with new art, newer players who didn't play with some of those card when they were first printed, and casual players looking to try something they might not have the card pool to make. Sometimes the decks just look like they'd be fun to play, so people will buy them and play with them. There are some people who buy them just to have something to shuffle up and play with friends during down time between rounds at a draft or whatever, where you don't want to play your draft decks but the other guy doesn't have anything else on him. Finally, they're a great way to get someone into the game who's never played before, since the game play is pretty balanced and most of the confusing bits can be explained on the fly.

Personally, I could probably find out the contents of these decks ahead of time and then build them almost entirely from scratch out of my collection. I could have done that with DvD (missing only Lord of the Pit), but I wanted the Demonic Tutor, so I bought one. I could have done it with JvC, but I wanted the Fact or Fiction and the Daze (missing only the two rare elementals), so I bought one. I know some people who could have built the decks themselves but bought one anyway, just because it looked like fun and they were too lazy to comb through their collections looking for all the cards.

[DragoFireheart]

Originally Posted by Wizards Reprint Policy
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.



At least, it didn't the last time I checked.

Oh noes, it doesn't cost red but it costs blue! It's mana cost is still 2: no where does it mention color.

If they made a card called "Fiery Recall" and was the same as Ancestral Recall but instead cost one red instead of one blue, it wouldn't violate the policy? You can't disagree with Twincast but agree with Fiery Recall.


Yeah, you missed the point entirely.

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh noes, it doesn't cost red but it costs blue! It's mana cost is still 2: no where does it mention color.

If they made a card called "Fiery Recall" and was the same as Ancestral Recall but instead cost one red instead of one blue, it wouldn't violate the policy? You can't disagree with Twincast but agree with Fiery Recall.


Yeah, you missed the point entirely.
I'm floored by your overwhelming stupidity here.

Try reading the next sentence where they explain exactly what they mean by functionally identical. Mana cost does, in fact, include color (otherwise, it would be CONVERTED mana cost). And yes, to answer your question, they could reprint Ancestral if they changed the mana cost to a single red. They wouldn't do it because of power and color pie issues, but they could if they wanted to.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm floored by your overwhelming stupidity here.

Insulting others makes your points more valid. Yup, great debating tool.



Try reading the next sentence where they explain exactly what they mean by functionally identical. Mana cost does, in fact, include color (otherwise, it would be CONVERTED mana cost).

I assumed converted mana cost. I made a mistake, yet lets read this next part...


And yes, to answer your question, they could reprint Ancestral if they changed the mana cost to a single red. They wouldn't do it because of power and color pie issues, but they could if they wanted to.

You make a big fuss about color and the fact that I need to read the article, yet then you agree about this?

Here's part of the article you didn't read:


July 2002

Primary to the value of purchasing Magic cards is the concept that each card will maintain a reasonable value over time.


This would easily cause the value of Ancestral Recall to dive bomb in value. Maybe not entirely, but enough to make a impact. It'd also screw up Standard and Extended.

I think you are the moron if you actually agree as you missed the point of the policy by arguing semantics.

[Sims]

Depending on whats in it I'll pick one up. I bought JvC for the alt art and the same in DvD... I wanted the Fact or Fiction and the Counterspells, among a few playable cards for EDH that i didn't already have (lookin at you Ancestral Visions) so I picked one up... played like 2 games with the decks and moved the cards into what I bought them for. Same with DvD.... I picked mine up a day early and played a few games against my girlfriend with them before pulling them apart and putting the cards in EDH decks... I desperately wanted the Akroma for EDH (cause I think the art is sexy) and found uses for the extra Demonic, Twilight Shepard, Reya, and a few of the cards from the Demonic Deck are now starring in my MBC EDH deck (Reiver Demon, Promise of Power, etc..)... Know the thing I was suprised and loved the most about the DvD deck? Black Bordered Dark Rits with the 5th Edition art. I have loved that art forever and black marker just wasn't doing it for me.

Depending on what the decklists are I'll probably pick up both the Garruk and Liliana and the Phyrexia/Coalition decks... Again, depending on what is in them and what gets new artwork.

[Aggro_zombies]

This would easily cause the value of Ancestral Recall to dive bomb in value. Maybe not entirely, but enough to make a impact. It'd also screw up Standard and Extended.

I think you are the moron if you actually agree as you missed the point of the policy by arguing semantics.
Um...how, exactly?

Let's assume they print this hypothetical red Recall in a modern large set (I say large set to reduce the chances of any individual booster containing this card). A modern print run of a large set is bigger than the combined print runs of Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited. Furthermore, there's no reason why the red version would affect the blue version's value, as the red version would be legal in more formats, and in Vintage (where it's relevant), they cost different colors of mana.

The P9's high prices are dictated much more by extremely restricted supply than by demand. They were printed in exactly three small sets as rares, meaning that there's a limited supply of them to go around. The arrival of a red version of Ancestral isn't going to automatically cause people to flood the market with actual Ancestrals in a rush to acquire the red version, since one is not a straight substitute for the other because they cost different colors of mana.

You could make an argument that having the red version available in large numbers would cause fewer people to want the blue version, thus decreasing demand and thereby dropping the price. This is incorrect because the different colors of mana required to cast each version make them non-equivalent, so that they would ultimately end up in different decks (or side-by-side in the same deck, since who doesn't want to have a ton of draw-threes). The original Ancestral also has a sort of "brand name" effect going for it, where people will want it simply based on its reputation and not because they can't get a functionally equivalent "generic." This argument also fails because it assumes that there's a broad audience of people actively hunting for Ancestral who would settle for a red version instead. Most people would be happy to open a red Ancestral, but most of those same people weren't out already looking for the blue version, meaning they weren't affecting the demand for the blue version when they acquired the red one. Furthermore, we can imagine a scenario where a number of people who opened a red Ancestral would attempt to sell it off and upgrade to real Power Nine, which would actually serve to further increase the price of Ancestral Recall because the demand is going up for the same restricted supply. Finally, the red version (in this scenario) would be legal in formats that Ancestral isn't legal in, making its price largely independent of its blue counterpart since it would be required for play in a number of much more popular formats than Vintage.

The only way this would affect the price of Recalls is if it caused a sudden rush of people to want to get into Vintage. The amount of price drop would then be dictated by the number and competitiveness of the Vintage decks that ran one but not the other, and you can't predict that without doing it first.

Now, if we assume that Red Recall was printed such that the total number of available red copies would be equal to the total number of available Ancestrals, and if we further assumed that Red Recall was automatically banned in every format but Vintage (and it got restricted there), there's still no reason to think the price on Ancestral Recall would drop, for the previously mentioned reasons. Having a different color of mana in its mana cost actually dictates what decks can play it, and "Draw three" is powerful enough that there's no reason why you'd want to limit yourself to one copy when you can support two in the same deck. There are already competitive Vintage decks that don't run Recall, so without the Red Recall decks becoming clearly superior to the Ancestral Recall decks, additional decks wouldn't reduce the amount of demand by a relevant amount.

tl;dr the difference in mana cost actually makes the cards different, thereby making the effects of one on the demand of the other much less clear-cut than if you made a straight reprint.

Wizards would be more likely to stay out of it for power and color pie reasons than for "crashing the secondary Vintage market" reasons.

[DragoFireheart]

Well, it looks like you listened and didn't use any insults.




tl;dr the difference in mana cost actually makes the cards different, thereby making the effects of one on the demand of the other much less clear-cut than if you made a straight reprint.

Except the whole dual lands and Black Lotus and stuff that don't give a crap about the cards color. Red Ancestral Recall prices would sky rocket, while Blue Ancestral Recall prices would plummet since a functionally similar card can do what it can do but in a different color (arguably).

Look, I appreciate the effort you put into your post, but it's far too long for me to have enough interest in reading. Also, I skimmed and I think I saw a non-nonsensical point:

- People wouldn't automatically flood to it? Are you insane? :eek:
The fact that it's legal in more formats would be the exact reason for it being swarmed it.





Wizards would be more likely to stay out of it for power and color pie reasons than for "crashing the secondary market" reasons.

This is the only thing I actually agree with you on.

[Aggro_zombies]

Except the whole dual lands and Black Lotus and stuff that don't give a crap about the cards color. Red Ancestral Recall prices would sky rocket, while Blue Ancestral Recall prices would plummet since a functionally similar card can do what it can do but in a different color (arguably).

Look, I appreciate the effort you put into your post, but it's far too long for me to have enough interest in reading. Also, I skimmed and I think I saw a non-nonsensical point:

- People wouldn't automatically flood to it? Are you insane? :eek:
The fact that it's legal in more formats would be the exact reason for it being swarmed it.
*sigh*

Here, let's take a look at the closest real-world example we have: Drop of Honey versus Porphyry Nodes. Drop is on the Reserved List. According to this handy graph from findmagiccards.com tracking average store prices over several years:

http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/AN/Chart_Drop_of_Honey_Prices.JPEG

Porphyry Nodes was printed in February of 2007. Drop's price peaked a year after Nodes was printed, and it still remains unreasonably high given the fact that no one plays either of them.

Now let's assume that we make a color-shifted copy of a card that's heavily played by a niche market. Does making another version at the same level of availability cause its price to drop? No, because they're not the same fucking card. Mono-blue control can't play Red Recall without splashing, which makes it a different deck. Similarly, mono-red Goblins can't play Ancestral without splashing. The fact that competitive decks exist in Vintage without running Recall is sufficient to say that it's not an effect worth splashing for for some decks. That also applies to making a red version. Would some decks pick up the red version if it were on-color and they didn't want to splash for blue? Probably. However, that still doesn't affect the market for Ancestral because those decks aren't currently running it to begin with. The fact that Red Recall and Ancestral cost different colors actually makes them DIFFERENT cards that go in different decks.

Besides, just having Recall isn't sufficient to drag tons of people into Vintage. Almost all competitive decks run Moxen or other expensive cards (Workshop, Mana Drain, etc), which is a huge additional investment that would continue to act as a barrier to entry.

[DragoFireheart]

There's one problem with your example:

Porphyry Nodes and Drop of Honey are both shitty* cards. For all intents and purposes, demand for shitty cards is 0. Drop of Honey's prices is reflected due to the rarity of the card, not it's power (though the fact that it's a green card that destroys creatures probably upped the price a bit more).


*By shitty cards, I mean cards that us competitive players care about.

[DragoFireheart]

Besides, just having Recall isn't sufficient to drag tons of people into Vintage. Almost all competitive decks run Moxen or other expensive cards (Workshop, Mana Drain, etc), which is a huge additional investment that would continue to act as a barrier to entry.


Umm... ok? I don't remember claiming that everyone would suddenly want to start playing Vintage with the release of a Red Ancestral Recall.

[Aggro_zombies]

There's one problem with your example:

Porphyry Nodes and Drop of Honey are both shitty cards. Drop of Honey's prices is reflected due to the rarity of the card, not it's power (though the fact that it's a green card that destroys creatures probably upped the price a bit more).
I...kind of implied that.

It still doesn't change the fact that the two are functionally different cards due to being in different colors, and therefore operate independently of each other on the secondary market. The price of Porphyry Nodes plummeted within months of its release and is currently hovering at about $0.65. If the prices of the two were linked, you'd expect both to drop. By your own admission, scarcity would keep the price of Ancestral inflated even if a red version were to hit the market at modern print run levels.


Umm... ok? I don't remember claiming that everyone would suddenly want to start playing Vintage with the release of a Red Ancestral Recall.
See, you should have read my post. Ancestral's price is only relevant to the Vintage market. Therefore, any meaningful comparison between Ancestral and Red Recall would need to be made for that market. Players of other formats buying Red Recall wouldn't give a shit about the version that's not even legal in their respective formats.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Back on topic, I hope they don't just make the Coalition deck a pile of legends backed by Coalition Victory.

[Aggro_zombies]

Back on topic, I hope they don't just make the Coalition deck a pile of legends backed by Coalition Victory.
This is probably what's its going to turn out to be. It'll be green-based with a bunch of mana fixers and Coalition Victory as one of the rares (your only hope against the mono-colored, more consistent Phyrexian armies!).

[DragoFireheart]

I...kind of implied that.

It still doesn't change the fact that the two are functionally different cards due to being in different colors, and therefore operate independently of each other on the secondary market. The price of Porphyry Nodes plummeted within months of its release and is currently hovering at about $0.65. If the prices of the two were linked, you'd expect both to drop. By your own admission, scarcity would keep the price of Ancestral inflated even if a red version were to hit the market at modern print run levels.


By my own admission, Ancestral Recall would retain a certain value due solely to rarity.

And yes, the power level of the card would matter in this case, which is why Drop of Fail and Failure nodes doesn't work. I can't honestly think of a good example to compare to our red and blue recalls.

http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/UN/Chart_Ancestral_Recall_Prices.JPEG

If you look at our lovely chart, you'll see that demand (for the cheapest version) has gone down. It's safe to assume that any demand for the card has reached it's peak. If a Red Recall would be made, Blue Recall's demand would drop further (lowering the value) for those that still play Vintage.

When you say functionally different, I assume you mean WotC definition. Yes, technically they are functionally different, but I'm sure no one one gives a shit about the technicality when people see their recalls losing value to red ones that can be bought in $4 dollar packs.

[Atwa]

This is probably what's its going to turn out to be. It'll be green-based with a bunch of mana fixers and Coalition Victory as one of the rares (your only hope against the mono-colored, more consistent Phyrexian armies!).

Although I couldn't give a rat's ass for these kind of dual decks, a deck filled with legends would stir some interest in me. I am a collector of legendary permanents, so I'd buy 2. One to keep sealed and the other one for the singles to put in my binder.

[Aggro_zombies]

When you say functionally different, I assume you mean WotC definition. Yes, technically they are functionally different, but I'm sure no one one gives a shit about the technicality when people see their recalls losing value to red ones that can be bought in $4 dollar packs.


You could make an argument that having the red version available in large numbers would cause fewer people to want the blue version, thus decreasing demand and thereby dropping the price. This is incorrect because the different colors of mana required to cast each version make them non-equivalent, so that they would ultimately end up in different decks (or side-by-side in the same deck, since who doesn't want to have a ton of draw-threes). The original Ancestral also has a sort of "brand name" effect going for it, where people will want it simply based on its reputation and not because they can't get a functionally equivalent "generic." This argument also fails because it assumes that there's a broad audience of people actively hunting for Ancestral who would settle for a red version instead. Most people would be happy to open a red Ancestral, but most of those same people weren't out already looking for the blue version, meaning they weren't affecting the demand for the blue version when they acquired the red one. Furthermore, we can imagine a scenario where a number of people who opened a red Ancestral would attempt to sell it off and upgrade to real Power Nine, which would actually serve to further increase the price of Ancestral Recall because the demand is going up for the same restricted supply. Finally, the red version (in this scenario) would be legal in formats that Ancestral isn't legal in, making its price largely independent of its blue counterpart since it would be required for play in a number of much more popular formats than Vintage.

The only way this would affect the price of Recalls is if it caused a sudden rush of people to want to get into Vintage. The amount of price drop would then be dictated by the number and competitiveness of the Vintage decks that ran one but not the other, and you can't predict that without doing it first.

[DragoFireheart]

The only way this would affect the price of Recalls is if it caused a sudden rush of people to want to get into Vintage. The amount of price drop would then be dictated by the number and competitiveness of the Vintage decks that ran one but not the other, and you can't predict that without doing it first.

You know for a fact that if people did start wanting to play Vintage solely because of Red Recall, the price of Blue Recall would drop: as I have already shown, the demand for Blue Recall has peaked.

You continue to mention color in a format where people don't give a damn about the color as the format is filled with dual lands, fetchlands and power nine. Most competitive decks in Vintage have power nine, tutors, counters, some other fun power cards and their win-con.

[Aggro_zombies]

You know for a fact that if people did start wanting to play Vintage solely because of Red Recall, the price of Blue Recall would drop: as I have already shown, the demand for Blue Recall has peaked.

You continue to mention color in a format where people don't give a damn about the color as the format is filled with dual lands, fetchlands and power nine. Most competitive decks in Vintage have power nine, tutors, counters, some other fun power cards and their win-con.
You still haven't given me a reason why running one automatically precludes you from running the other (the only way one could negatively affect the price of the other. In all other cases, there is simply no reason not to run both). Besides, if you're correct about demand peaking, who's to say it wouldn't continue to go down regardless of the presence of Red Recall?

[Otter]

Why in the hell is this topic now about the reserved list?

[Jander78]

Locked. Thread is not even close to being on topic. Shame on you all!