Which one is stronger? Canadian Thresh or Countertop-Goyf

[Humphrey]

Im currently building a new deck. Now im wondering which deck is the better one.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=27709

or

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=27715

which is better in what meta?

[DrJones]

Test them against each other.

[yankeedave]

We need more info, can you tell us something about your meta? Do you have a well developed meta with lots of duals / Decks from the DTB section or is it full of random.dec?

Dave

[Ectoplasm]

Test them against each other.

Don't because CB/top eats canadian for breakfast.

[Humphrey]

My Meta is:

Enchantress
UWb Landstill
Merfolk
UGWb Contertop
Zoo
TES
BGW Rock
RGB Loam

All are the typical lists

[Eldariel]

Tempo Thresh is much better for such a meta. It's better vs. Zoo, Rock, Merfolk and Landstill. It's also servicable against Enchantress & Aggro Loam. The only MU it's notably worse in than Countertop out of that meta is TES, and there's still something to be said about running Wastelands vs. a deck with under 18 lands.

I have no idea what the hell "UWb Thresh" is 'cause Thresh by always plays green, but if it's some kind of a "Goyfless Countertop", it should be a good match-up; Countertop overall is quite good for Tempo Thresh given how Counterbalance practically never resolves and Countertop sucks at functioning at low mana, while Tempo Thresh is built for it; and Temop Thresh easily generates gamestates where Countertop lacks colors or just plain lands.

[Humphrey]

I have no idea what the hell "UWb Thresh" is 'cause Thresh by always plays green, but if it's some kind of a "Goyfless Countertop", it should be a good match-up; Countertop overall is quite good for Tempo Thresh given how Counterbalance practically never resolves and Countertop sucks at functioning at low mana, while Tempo Thresh is built for it; and Temop Thresh easily generates gamestates where Countertop lacks colors or just plain lands.

Yeah, sry fixed. Its Baseruption aka UGwb Countertop

[undone]

Canadian is better in a random metagame and better against more of the feild however countertop just wins some matchups by drawing two cards before turn 3.


Enchantress
UWb Landstill
Merfolk
UGWb Contertop
Zoo
TES
BGW Rock
RGB Loam

Loam is bad(for canadian) and enchantress is good with grips and predator in the board but bad otherwise. TES, Zoo landstill and merfolk are way better for tempo than countertop as tempo's red spells are bombs against them.

Both have ups and downs and you want to know what the truth is.

The better choice between tempo and countertop is to be the better player with them, as both are pretty skill intensive.

[Humphrey]

Well I think skill ist not the problem. Im used to NLU in Extended and was playing classic ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for a while.

So u guys think overall Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is the best option u can get?

whats up with the forum and the word ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh?

Also how is your opinion about Goyfsligh?

[Bahamuth]

Tempo Thresh is much better for such a meta. It's better vs. Rock

I agree that Tempo Thresh is the better choice, but I disagree with the above. Rock is such a bad matchup for Tempo Thresh. They just drop a ton of land, making your mana denial pretty much complete crap, and drop some insane creatures like Finks or Witness, to wich you just lose.


TES, [...] are way better for tempo than countertop as tempo's red spells are bombs against them.



No. We don't have Counterbalance. Although I'm not sure about TES specifically, because I don't test it anymore (I think ANT or DDANT are both superior), but we don't have Counterbalance, and that basically means our matchup is worse. Both ANT and DDANT, if piloted properly, get positive results against Tempo Thresh. Although Stifle is worse against TES, Wasteland is slightly better. TES also doesn't have enough land to just go land, go for a couple of turns, which is the best you can do against Tempo Thresh. Still, I don't think the matchup is any better than 50/50 for us.

[santeria]

So u guys think overall Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is the best option u can get?


probably. however, the cards used in each are real similar. so to switch from one deck to the other wouldnt cost that much. they do play completely differently though. but I would start with canadian.

[whiteshepherdman]

canadian thresh is stronger in my oppinion but only because i play combo and UWx landstill. Countertop is just easier to deal with with EE, vindicate, disk, wipe away, krosans grip than getting your lands raped in the early game

I think canadian threshold would get extremely boring really quick though, Countertop feels like it would give you more range of plays than canadian thresh that is basically, stifle waste their mana and beat them down with mongoose/goyf before they stabilize.

[Humphrey]

probably. however, the cards used in each are real similar. so to switch from one deck to the other wouldnt cost that much. they do play completely differently though. but I would start with canadian.

I got alle the cards for both decks. thats not the problem. but i couldnt decide which one im going to play, meaning i have to put the other half of the deck in a box. well actually there real different, exept the goyfs. counter and tropicals ;)

[Eldariel]

I agree that Tempo Thresh is the better choice, but I disagree with the above. Rock is such a bad matchup for Tempo Thresh. They just drop a ton of land, making your mana denial pretty much complete crap, and drop some insane creatures like Finks or Witness, to wich you just lose.

Well, ok, let me rephrase: I have never lost to Rock with Tempo Thresh. Maybe I've just gotten lucky that my opponents haven't drawn more than 4-5 lands over the first 5 turns, but I've never really had trouble resolving Stifle + Waste and burning out mana accelerants FTW. Maybe my opponents haven't mulliganed enough or have had bad hands or whatever, but I have a hard time seeing how a multicolor deck relying on 3-drops could ever have decent match-up vs. Tempo Thresh.

Besides, the 3-mana spells fall prey to Dazes and Forces. Canadian Thresh can perform the tempo gameplan with frightening consistency due to the blue draw suite and Rock can't generally kill Nimble Mongoose outside Deed (and even it tends to fall prey to Stifle.

I've had the same experience vs. Aggro Loam. Unless they have a Mox opener, they just masturbate for a few turns doing nothing, you counter their relevant spells and kill them before they really get going. Post-board with Submerge, this is even better as you can just Submerge creatures to either remove their guys or to deny them their next draw if you've successfully manascrewed them (and you can shuffle the bigger guys away quite easily with Submerge in resp to a fetch).


I have no guarantee of the level of my Aggro Loam/Rock-testing opponents, but at least my testing suggests that Aggro Loam is about even and Rock is a very good MU for Tempo Thresh.

[quicksilver]

I have a hard time seeing how a multicolor deck relying on 3-drops could ever have decent match-up vs. Tempo Thresh.

I currently run a 3 color deck that relies on 3 drops and it has a very good match-up against tempo thresh. I've never seen rock vs tempo thresh so I cannot comment about that, but I think this statement is an over generalization.

[Eldariel]

I currently run a 3 color deck that relies on 3 drops and it has a very good match-up against tempo thresh. I've never seen rock vs tempo thresh so I cannot comment about that, but I think this statement is an over generalization.

This is true, of course; it's not a truth about the format as much as my own experience with Tempo Thresh. I simply have difficulty thinking of a combination of cards on part of the 3-color deck that would make it hard for TT. That is not to say such a deck cannot exist, but I cannot think of any and have not played against any with the deck.

Admittedly, I have only tested and played Tempo Thresh vs. a bunch of established, relatively popular decks, so it's fully possible that I simply don't have experience with the slower decks capable of crushing Tempo Thresh. What might you be referring to, by the way?

[santeria]

I have a hard time seeing how a multicolor deck relying on 3-drops could ever have decent match-up vs. Tempo Thresh.

Probasco vs Caplan, GP Chicago Finals.

[Eldariel]

Probasco vs Caplan, GP Chicago Finals.

...what? Probasco vs. Caplan never happened; Caplan vs. Nassif, you mean? That was quarters. Countertop hardly relies on 3+cc cards; all the keys are at 2cc. And Nassif had some sick hands while Caplan's were pretty poor.

[quicksilver]

What might you be referring to, by the way?

I'll see if I can find time to write up a thread for it in the next couple of days.

[Wargoos]

Faerie Stompy

[wolfstorm]

I prefer Canadian Thresh... I <3 Stifle

[DragoFireheart]

I dunno. Ever since I started using Counter-Top for practice games, it gives me a hard-on pissing people off with it.

Then again, Tempo Threshold mana denial is pretty brutal if they keep a land-light hand.

[Tacosnape]

Ask yourself which deck you'd be happier if you never ever had to face it again in your entire existence.

For me, that's Tempo Thresh.

[Humphrey]

Actually I love Counterbalance and I hate to play against it. On the other hand I want mongoose.
I tried some CT vs CB matches against myself and without an active Balance it was pretty hopeless to win, if CB made it into play, it was an autowin. Also Bob is nice.
I really cant decide, I like both ^^ Maybe Im going for to 4C Baseruption :D

[Happy Gilmore]

Except for both running Goyf and Blue spells they are in no way comparable. They are completely different decks.

[Arrowni]

So running blue and goyf makes you the same deck? Those are two very easy things to do.

[undone]

Canadian is a very above average deck, it has average to good matchups vs everything thats not an abysmal matchup (abysmal being 60/40 or 70/30 stax matchups). Countertop has real matchups which can be aquard or awsome based on what you play vs. All in all I think canadian is better in a random metagame, and countertop is better in a known meta because its easier to metagame with the deck.

[neon_havoc]

Tempo Thresh .

[Kanabo]

i like to think of it this way: if you were to only own one legacy deck, what would it be? the best players out there dont switch around decks too much, and if they do they arent doing it because it sucks.

so i suggest you pick the one you will be comfortable with in the future, and still want to play.

[adrieng]

You can also play a deck that can do both such as this deck :
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29526

[Julian23]

You can also play a deck that can do both such as this deck :
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29526

I don't see how this list can be compared to Canadian Threshold. It's not about burn but the Stifle/Wasteland package (judging by my understanding of this deck).

[chokin]

Depends on your play style in my opinion. I've piloted both with success, because they're both strong decks. I feel most comfortable piloting CounterTop though.

CounterTop obviously plays a more controlling role. Some decks have a hard time with that combo, other don't care. Setting up CBTop can win you games and then when it's convenient, feel free to beat them with your guys.

Tempo Thresh screws around with your opponents early turns as you chip into their life with a Goose or a Goyf. Your burn paves a path for your creatures to get through, or goes to their face later on. Wasteland and Stifle can really cripple people in the crititcal first turns that they may need to set up.

CounterTop leaves you a lot of room to pick what you want to do. It's pretty flexible. Tempo Thresh has only a few slots that can be changed before it stops looking like Tempo Thresh.

[from Cairo]

Except for both running Goyf and Blue spells they are in no way comparable. They are completely different decks.

The OP clearly indicated they were different decks. They are comparable in the sense that they are the two evolutionary paths of traditional Threshold decks. One going in the more controlling side of the agro control spectrum, and the other going in the more tempo/disruption side of the spectrum.

While I don't think there is a definitive answer answer as to which is stronger. Both have merits, as the meta changes the respective power level of each changes, and as with any deck choice some if it will come down to personal playstyle. That said, I think the question and discussion has potential.


@ OP

I personally feel like Canadian Thresh is the stronger deck in the current meta game. Zoo seems like the reigning DTB at the moment, and I feel like Tempo Thresh has a bunch of great tools to dismantle it. Lightning Bolt and Goyf deals with most of their team, Spell Snare answers opposing Goyfs, Nimble and FoW help negate their removal, Wasteland and Stifle can randomly blow them out if their manabase doesn't fall into place.

Some are predicting a rise in storm combo with the meta dominated by agro, if this happens I could see Counter/Top-Goyf picking up since CB/T is pretty much a hard lock vs. combo. Canadian Thresh still has great tools against combo too, but not on the same level.

[santeria]

...what? Probasco vs. Caplan never happened; Caplan vs. Nassif, you mean? That was quarters. Countertop hardly relies on 3+cc cards; all the keys are at 2cc. And Nassif had some sick hands while Caplan's were pretty poor.

I consider all matches of the top 8, the finals. not specifically the very final match, hence the plural.

I dont know what you mean by probasco vs caplan never happened ? might not have been the finals, might have even been day one. I dont remeber exactly, it was almost a year ago. anyways, countertop blew canadian thresh out of the water.

[o13g]

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpchi09/blog1#13

Caplan beats the crap out of GT piloting Nassif.dec