Viable in Legacy? Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows

[Nate]

Pro Tour Austin just ended, and this 2-card combo made an appearance in several successful Extended decks, particularly Kibler's (err, Rubin's) 1st-place Zoo deck. In Extended, this package seems awesome. What about Legacy?

[Esper3k]

I think it's interesting, but not sure how exactly viable it is.

At first glance, I'd put it in a Loam deck since it can get both Grove and Punishing Fires for you.

[Hanni]

At first glance, I'd say not very viable.

On its own, Grove is completely contradictory for an aggressive archetype. Of course, it can be tapped for colorless, but most spells that Zoo (or Sligh) use are full of colored costs.

On its own, Punishing Fire seems narrow. 1R for 2 damage is mediocre at best. I can see it being strong against lifegain, whether that be vs Kitchen Finks, Jitte, etc... but still narrow. Sulfuric Vortex is much better in that context.

Together, they seem slow. Each tap + recast is netting you 1 damage. Agressive decks like Zoo (or Sligh) don't really need an engine that slow.

Finally, Groves seems like it's just going to add even more strain to an already vulnerable manabase (Zoo), or weaken a fairly solid manabase (Sligh).

Just my thoughts though, I've never tried it.

[Aggro_zombies]

At first glance, I'd say not very viable.

On its own, Grove is completely contradictory for an aggressive archetype. Of course, it can be tapped for colorless, but most spells that Zoo (or Sligh) use are full of colored costs.

On its own, Punishing Fire seems narrow. 1R for 2 damage is mediocre at best. I can see it being strong against lifegain, whether that be vs Kitchen Finks, Jitte, etc... but still narrow. Sulfuric Vortex is much better in that context.

Together, they seem slow. Each tap + recast is netting you 1 damage. Agressive decks like Zoo (or Sligh) don't really need an engine that slow.

Finally, Groves seems like it's just going to add even more strain to an already vulnerable manabase (Zoo), or weaken a fairly solid manabase (Sligh).

Just my thoughts though, I've never tried it.
Actually, those are pretty much all of the legitimate complaints about it. I doubt it will see much play because it's basically a card advantage engine for a deck that's strong enough to not really need it (Zoo has Library, which is much better). There's no other deck I can think of that would want this over Loam + Barbarian Ring.

[Otter]

I'm seeing quite a few problems --

(1) Wasteland is everywhere, if you lose Burnwillows, the Punishing Fires themselves are pretty awful.

(2) It's doing non-broken things with the graveyard. If I'm going to have a strategy vulnerable to Crypt/Relic/Extirpate/whatever, I'd like it to be stupid on the level of Ichorid or Loam, not recurring Shock. I know that you can dodge even Extirpate since you can tap the Grove in response, but still. . .

(3) Goyf grows a bit more quickly in legacy than extended, there's less of a window to kill him with 1-2 casts before he gets huge and mauls you.

(4) Wouldn't control rather use EE/Academy Ruins recursion and wouldn't aggro rather Cursed Scroll? And really, as much as I love the card, when was the last time anyone saw Cursed Scroll? Three mana for a recurring two damage hasn't been turning heads on either side of control or aggro here in a while.

(5) It easily gets locked out by CB/Chalice -- yay!

[dearleader]

Otter pretty much nailed it. If I'm playing a combo that's vulnerable to wasteland, it would have to win games for me. 2RRR to kill a
Kird Ape doesn't seem so hot.

Also, Grove of the Burnwillows seems pretty terrible in any deck that runs those colors (Zoo and Goyfsligh immediately come to mind).

[badjuju]

The combo isn't bad, it's actually what allowed Kibler to totally mess up Ikeda in the finals of PT Austin. Is it right for Legacy though? Probably not. Zoo has access to much better stuff in this format and is already pretty tight for slots to fit in this "cool" combo. In a somewhat slower format (*cough* extended) with less lethal spells, Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burningwillows will shine more.

[TheCramp]

To me the bigger question is if sword of the meek and thopter foundry are legacy playable. that deck was fucking nutty, if I sleeved up an extended deck, that's what I would play.

[Soldar]

I don't think this combo really fits into our current established decks, but I think it does have a place in Legacy. I'm going to work on something this week to see how viable it actually is. If it ends up being pretty decent, I'll probably try to test its mettle at the Meandeck Open.

[Gibsonmac]

extended is a completely different format in every way.. obv. anyway in extended there is no wasteland, decks are much slower and creatures are generally smaller... using it as endless removal for creatures that for the most part have 2 or less toughness, in a format that has no 'good' permission cards, and no wasteland, really isn't applicable in legacy.

[hungryLIKEALION]

One thing that i think everyone is missing is that with 2 or more fires in the gy, you can buy them all back with them only gaining one, so you can net 3-5-7 damage a turn. even still though, it may not be enough to make the combo viable, despite my personal liking for it. I expect I'll still test it in a few different shells before giving up on it though.

[Barook]

Just asking: The opponent needs to actually gain life to trigger Punishing Fire, doesn't he? So no fancy tricks with Sulfuric Vortex?

I don't think that the combo is very viable in Legacy. Goyfs, Tombstalkers, KotR, Dreadnoughts and other cheap fatties run rampant in the format thanks to the format-warping effect of Goyf which wiped out the vast majority of weenie creatures. The presence of Wasteland and other non-basic hate certainly doesn't help.

[Shanghi Knights]

Kinda mana expensive in my opinion. 1 to get it back and 2 to cast. worse case its 3 mana for 1 damage. But if you have multiples to bring back from the yard then Its not so bad. Something to the effect of intuition and seething song would help get it on its way.

[hi-val]

I've got my playsets of both. I fully expect it to see some love somewhere. Here are some considerations:

*Moat lets you sit back and ping an opponent pretty easily
*Humility plus this combo is pretty sick
*card discarders, like Compulsion, really like this combo
*aggro hates this combo

Tribal decks, and aggro in general, is faced with hard choices, especially because this color combo enables Firespout too. I'm already testing with it and finding several favorable interactions using the combination in several decks. I think serious Legacy players are going to give it a try and not fall to the internet keyboard jockey speak of "this loses to Wasteland and Crypt."

I don't think it's a breakin' combo, but it's a source of continual burn or board control that's hard to answer. We're smart to pay attention.

[Roman Candle]

I've got my playsets of both. I fully expect it to see some love somewhere. Here are some considerations:

*Moat lets you sit back and ping an opponent pretty easily

Or, y'know, do something to win that doesn't take a fucking eternity.


*Humility plus this combo is pretty sick

Again, there are better things to do with Humility down. Especially now that Painter's Servant works under Humility. I mean, shit, Rod of fucking Ruin has the same effect in one card.


*card discarders, like Compulsion, really like this combo

Except Compulsion sucks, and Life from the Loam is just a better card for discard strategies.


*aggro hates this combo

Grim Lavamancer does a better job of hosing aggro, and does it in one card, and doesn't die to Wasteland.

Honestly, Grim Lavamancer just seems better in almost every aspect to this combo.

[Otter]

*Moat lets you sit back and ping an opponent pretty easily

Once you have a Moat down, does it matter how you win? Besides, Elspeth is not only on-color, but does something on her own, protects herself, and wins far more quickly.


*aggro hates this combo

I'm not so sure about this. It doesn't kill Nacatal, Ape, KotR, or Thoctar from Zoo. It also wants you to get a bunch of land out in order to really abuse it, which walks you right into Price. Really doesn't sound that threatening.

[Soldar]

I've got my playsets of both. I fully expect it to see some love somewhere. Here are some considerations:

*Moat lets you sit back and ping an opponent pretty easily
*Humility plus this combo is pretty sick
*card discarders, like Compulsion, really like this combo
*aggro hates this combo

Tribal decks, and aggro in general, is faced with hard choices, especially because this color combo enables Firespout too. I'm already testing with it and finding several favorable interactions using the combination in several decks. I think serious Legacy players are going to give it a try and not fall to the internet keyboard jockey speak of "this loses to Wasteland and Crypt."

I don't think it's a breakin' combo, but it's a source of continual burn or board control that's hard to answer. We're smart to pay attention.

I 4-0'ed the swiss of a local tournament rocking this combo last night. I'll be rocking it at the Meandeck Open before I post up a list.

I don't think people are looking at this with the right eyes. Of course there are foils to every combo and strategy in every format. That doesn't stop us from trying, does it? I mostly showed up with the deck so that if someone actually asked me, "So, does it suck?" I could confirm that it did, but it performed way better than I expected.

Edit: That said, it's not like it's most game ending combo. I did lose in the top 8 to an active Counterbalance.

[Hanni]

I've got my playsets of both. I fully expect it to see some love somewhere. Here are some considerations:

*Moat lets you sit back and ping an opponent pretty easily
*Humility plus this combo is pretty sick
*card discarders, like Compulsion, really like this combo
*aggro hates this combo

Tribal decks, and aggro in general, is faced with hard choices, especially because this color combo enables Firespout too. I'm already testing with it and finding several favorable interactions using the combination in several decks. I think serious Legacy players are going to give it a try and not fall to the internet keyboard jockey speak of "this loses to Wasteland and Crypt."

I don't think it's a breakin' combo, but it's a source of continual burn or board control that's hard to answer. We're smart to pay attention.


I suppose I could see some potential for this in a control deck, but what control decks play green and red (at least red), and why is this win condition better than other control win conditions (like Elspeth for example)?

[hi-val]

Or, y'know, do something to win that doesn't take a fucking eternity.



Again, there are better things to do with Humility down. Especially now that Painter's Servant works under Humility. I mean, shit, Rod of fucking Ruin has the same effect in one card.



Except Compulsion sucks, and Life from the Loam is just a better card for discard strategies.



Grim Lavamancer does a better job of hosing aggro, and does it in one card, and doesn't die to Wasteland.

Honestly, Grim Lavamancer just seems better in almost every aspect to this combo.

It's cool, I'm not trying to be aggressive to you so maybe a nicer tone plx?

The benefit that this has is that it doesn't die to the most common card ever, Krosan Grip. Painter's Servant and Grindstone get tanked by grip and creature removal a lot. Elspeth, while a bit harder to actually fight, can get burnt out or attacked through. For sure, this combo loses to Wasteland, but you've got several Groves and possibly more profitable Wasteland targets in your deck anyway.

The real benefit comes from having two, since both trigger on one Grove. hungryLIKEALION pointed this out; you can get 3 damage per turn out of two copies, which is a fine win condition. Two can also feed cards that require a discard; though Masticore basically does what this card does anyway, it's an example. I was also thinking about Solitary Confinement as another card that goes well with two copies.

It has potential and I think it's pretty cool that this thread has generated both very negative and very positive reactions toward testing the cards!

[nodahero]

So I have been contemplating various shells in which this could really shine and while the shell I have is HIGHLY meta specific it seems like it might actually be fairly viable.

I have played AggroLoam for... well... suffice it to say a long time... and it seems like this may actually fit fairly well into it once I figure out what card counts to adjust. My biggest beef with AggroLoam has always been the problem of solving Goyf standoffs and this card clearly is a viable solution to it without running 4 colors (I use RGB) or using cards that are poor in AggroLoam such as Noble Heiarch.

[android]

I just have a couple comments.

Remember Kavu Justice? I'm not sure why we can't just drop the white, include Punishing Fire, Goyf and the free life gain alternate casting cost for huge damage. That's where this combo could actually shine. Think of it this way, Punishing Fire wins Goyf wars and makes Kavu Predator huge. Is it better than Zoo? Not going to make that statement but your creature are going to be bigger.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Wouldn't you want white for the lulz involving stp+predator?

[darkdeal]

It might have some place against Merfolk or Goblins or something. It seems most here are looking at it as a way to hit the opponent. I couldn't care less about that, but getting small efficient creatures off the board is a plus.

As someone else said though, it seems like it would only really be good in a deck with LftL like 43 land or something. Barbarian Ring might just be better there. The advantage of the Punishing Fire is that you can do more than 2 damage if you have more than one in the yard.

[android]

I think the argument is efficiency vs recursion.

In a format where aggro is already hard pressed to win by the critical turn 3-4, it's going to be a tough sell.

Let's take a look at the matchups. I'm going to assume you would only play PF in an aggro or aggro/control build and possibly have more than one way (Burnwillows) to bring the card back.

vs. aggro - this card could come through for you. The problem with Merfolk is they are in the color with the best card draw and control so they might be able to minimize the impact of a 2 damage instant long enough to march through for 20. Then there's Goblins which have so much built in card advantage that the virtual card advantage you get from recurring PF is negligible. The card will not outpace Thresh and probably won't outpace Zoo because they will either counter (Thresh) or just keep dropping shit while you waste mana trying to keep their board clear. Not to mention, Goose laughs at targeted burn.

vs. combo - Playing this card throws away any chance you might have had in beating them in 2-3 turns.

vs. control - They will win this war and eventually come through with something you can't even target. It's funny because you would think this would be one of the more relevant uses for recurring burn.

vs. prison - They will stabilize and win

vs. Dredge - Maybe you could target your own creature in response? Isn't Fanatic or Lightning Bolt better?

[Forbiddian]

I think people are looking at the card wrong. It's obviously awful in Zoo. It does nothing that Grim doesn't, and your opponent is gaining life. I really don't think it's worth even trying in that shell.



But I think it's viable in some control shell (compare to Fire/Ice).

For one, it can usually trade 1:1 against an early threat. Especially against Goblins and Merfolk, they run a LOT of 2 toughness or lower guys. Even if you never get it back, it didn't go to waste.

Speaking of Waste, Wasteland doesn't shut the combo down at all. Wasteland is an inconvenience, maybe, but you'll usually get to bounce it once (and that's the key, you nailed card advantage), and you'll have Crucible of Worlds later in the game.

You used it once or twice, burned them a bit, picked up some CA.



The color requirement is atrocious, but I see some potential in that Fire/Ice is still played, and Grove fills a similar role but does it differently.

Maybe in Canadian Thresh variants that used to run Fire/Ice. Canadian Thresh can use the G and R well, so running a few copies of Grove of the Burn Willows won't destroy the mana base.

Unfortunately in those variants, it acts as Ice 2/3rds of the time, so I'm not sure a permanent Fire could see play.

[hi-val]

It also fuels Zombie Infestation and Forbid. I've been thinking about those two lately in conjunction with these cards.

[Float4WeldSlaver]

Wouldn't Squee be better? No mana requirement, no opponent gaining life, and blocks Tarmogoyf all day.

[Nate]

Wouldn't Squee be better? No mana requirement, no opponent gaining life, and blocks Tarmogoyf all day.

That is true, but as soon as he hits the battlefield he's gettin' Swords'd...and then that's it for you because you only run 1 Squee.

[HSCK]

Squee also doesn't burn late game for the win, Forbid and Infestation style Fires might be the best route in Legacy.

[hi-val]

Wouldn't Squee be better? No mana requirement, no opponent gaining life, and blocks Tarmogoyf all day.

That opens up another idea, which is whether Entomb for Squee is worthwhile at all in Legacy.

I like the Grove plan because you can really easily buy back all the copies at any time, for as many Groves as you have. Thus, two Groves can buy back one twice, or buy back two Fires for FOUR cards! That's two Zombies, six damage or two Forbid buybacks.

What I really need help on is figuring out cards that require or reward multiple discards. So far, ZI and Forbid are all I can find.

[Sevryn]

Discard outlets:
-Zombie Infestation (you mentioned)
-Forbid (you mentioned)
-Survival of the Fittest
-Compulsion
-Spellshapers (Jaya Ballard, for example)
-Mind Over Matter

[android]

Conflagrate is another interesting card.

Here we go waaaaaay off topic:

I have a counter/bounce/burn deck I designed with tons of symmetrical draw spells. Win conditions have come and gone but range from Niv-Mizzet/Curiosity to Cerebral Vortex to Words of War to Words of Wind to Sudden Impact to Conflagrate.

The deck hinged on landing Psychic Possession.

It's actually pretty ridiculous if you play any of the following cards with a Psychic Possession in play;

Teferi's Puzzle Box - Asymmetrical draw 0-?/turn
Winds of Change - draw ? + however many cards opponent is holding
Time Spiral - draw 14
Prosperity - draw x*2
Vision Skeins - draw 4

Other good control cards in the deck are:
Arcane Denial - counter & draw 1-3
Call to Heel - bounce & draw 1
Dream Fracture - counter & draw 2
Jace - draw 4
Trade Secrets - draw 6+

It's pretty easy to set up a conflagrate for 10+ from the graveyard for RR

[hi-val]

Discard outlets:
-Zombie Infestation (you mentioned)
-Forbid (you mentioned)
-Survival of the Fittest
-Compulsion
-Spellshapers (Jaya Ballard, for example)
-Mind Over Matter

Ha, Mind over Matter lets you give the opponent infinite life! How awful : )

I was thinking about Spellshapers, but most are just bad. Unfortunately, I can't discard Fires to SOTF. Looters are way slow too.

[Illissius]

Yeah, there aren't that many good discard outlets which do useful things. Stormbind? Old school, at least.

And I dunno about Forbid. If we posit that Counterbalance + Top > Forbid + Life from the Loam, wouldn't it follow that Forbid + Punishing Fire likewise doesn't cut it?

[android]

However, if you look at it in the context of building a deck which selectively discards as a "drawback" for drawing cards and you include the symmetrical draw/discard spells, you would in a sense be doing 2 things:

Improving the quality of spells/cards both you and your opponent have in hand while at the same time increasing the utility and card advantage you possess from the graveyard. This is of course as long as you aren't playing vs. Loam, Dredge or Reanimator which you would be enabling. I think if you included cards like Punishing Fire, Life from the Loam, maybe Forbid/Zombie Infestation/Bloodghast/etc. or even Burning Inquiry (tons of other cards just like this), you might actually be feeding off both strategies; reduced cc for discard spells, increased utility from the gy.

[hi-val]

I was thinking last night that Rix Maadi is another approach for Punishing Fire. I'm totally unsure whether 1BRR + land drop is worth making the opponent discard a card (outlook: not rosy) but it's another "symmetrical" discard that you could force.

Illissius, the appeal of Forbid, for me, is that it hits just everything and you don't need two cards to set it up the way you do with Cbal and Top. Further, you are weak to GY hate with it but not Grip. Being able to buy back the Fires at the end of a turn instead of at sorcery speed like what LFTL requires means that you can get a lot more use out of the instant speed of both Forbid and Fire. For example, you can just toss fire at the opponent at the end of their turn if they do nothing Forbidden. In that way, it reminds me of the Counter-Hammer decks that would just get up to a billion mana and start Hammering the opponent while Forbidding.

[android]

You might as well play Cunning Lethemancer and be done with it.

[darkdeal]

Its not really a discard outlet, but this will also let you keep up a Solitary Confinement. Squee is probably better there, but Squee could get removed and this gives more redundancy.

[Illissius]

Clearly Mind Over Matter + False Cure is the way to go here.

(And it looks like Wild Research.dec finally got the Instant-Squee it was always missing. Rejoice.)

[android]

What if there was a card that read:

BR - Opponent loses 4 life, You gain 5 life - return Punishing Fire from the graveyard to your hand?

Kind of conditional, but would it warrant playing the deck as RGB?

Manabase:
Burnwillows
Badlands
Taiga
Bayou
Fetch x

Creatures:
Goyf
Kavu Predator
Goose/Fanatic?
Bloodbraid Elf???

Pump:
Invigorate

Burn:
Bolt
Punishing Fire
Needlebite Trap

Special Forces:
Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard:
Crypt vs Dredge
Thoughseize vs everything
KGrip vs CounterTop
EPlague vs Gobs
REB? vs U
Needle?
Relic vs a few things


This is purely hypothetical. The weakest card is probably the one I'm bringing up here but the 9 point swing is pretty significant. The deck may lack inevitability and just plain lose mid-game. How to beat fast combo? Again, NFI.