[Free Article] Creating a Legacy

[voltron00x]

My article this week is devoted to Legacy, specifically trying to create a reference point for players new to Legacy, but with at least a passing familiarity with Extended. I collect some examples of deck archetypes from large events this year, and end with a list of Legacy-centric cards related to specific decks (listed by card and by deck), to aid a new player looking to acquire a meaningful collection of Legacy staples.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18168_The_Long_Winding_Road_Creating_a_Legacy.html

[Nightmare]

This was a really excellent article, even if it was just another "intro" article. Regardless, it's always nice to see people writing about Legacy! Good job, Matt!

[paK0]

No love for Landstill q.q

But otherwise great job, I'll give you thumps up for this one =).

[FoulQ]

Just start by saying, awesome article. I've always enjoyed your articles, Matt.

Agree with paK0 on the landstill/UW controllish thing part. Also, no mention of life from the loam decks except for 42 lands? Aggro Loam was a DTW for a very long time, and I know it has a fairly strong presence sometimes in my own personal meta. A related deck to loam is the BGW midrange decks, but I suppose that sort of falls into eva green. Survival decks maybe. But obviously your article can't and shouldn't cover everything.

And I'm just curious if people know, IS volcanic island significantly more expensive than tundra?

[paK0]

Actually in germany Tundra is more valuable. I picked up a playset for 115€
where a Volcanic playset would have costed about 90-100€.
Tropical is somewhere in the middle and U.Sea is a little above Tundra.

[voltron00x]

Re: Tundra, you're probably right, it does seem to be comparable to slightly more expensive than Volcanic. That actually surprises me - I would think with the recent strong performance of Canadian Thresh in Legacy (which runs the full playset) and the extremely light play Tundra sees in Vintage compared to Volcanic would have had more of an effect on the prices.

The reason why I omitted Landstill / Dreadstill strategies is that they're currently down slightly in performance and meta %, and my goal was to hit the main strategies that people considering playing in the SCG $5Ks would be up against. Essentially I'm hoping to help get some more people into the format so that those tournaments can continue. It would be highly beneficial for the format's health in the US if SCG can continue to run these events.

Don't misunderstand though, I don't think Landstill or its variants (such as the Planeswalker deck) are down and out, they just need to adapt a bit to this new, Zoo-heavy meta we've seen late in the year. I also think they're some of the more difficult decks to pilot, so probably aren't the best choice for players new to the format.

I like Aggro Loam, and it seems incredibly well positioned against Zoo, it just hasn't been a player in large events this year in the US.

[Soldar]

I really do like the list of commonly played cards in decks, broken down by cardname/deck. I've been thinking about building a comprehensive list of cards that people should have to build legacy decks, but got busy soon after I had that idea. Then recently Menendian did it for Vintage, which was a really cool read.

Something that would be happily entitled, "The Build Binder"

[Nate]

Great article - this is a great way to help people get into the format as it's easy to get overwhelmed with all the seemingly necessary cards that are required to play Legacy. Thanks for putting in the work!

[Happy Gilmore]

I thought the article was fantastic. It successfully took a bite out of the fear people have of the format. And it was also a great planner for new and experienced players a like.


I did throw up a little when I saw the Ichorid list though.

[Parcher]

I really appreciate the work done here. Much more in-depth, with practical applications for the newcomer, than other articles of this type.

[Bardo]

Outstanding article. Really well done.

At first I was irked that it was thin on strategic information, then it occured to me that "This is the way to write this article" -- finding your way into the format that doesn't seem painful or scary if you're not stocked with Legacy staples. I'm not sure if it's unique in the range of articles on the format, but it's definitely the best execution of the idea I've ever seen.

My only passing criticism: not enough sections headings. It just kind goes w/o any kind of mile-markers even though you have transitional sections. That's pretty minor stuff.

Even though the regular users on this site are not your intented audience, I appreciate a clear, well-written article that is difficult to do well.

If you want some article ideas -- Legacy could really use a well-written metagame breakdown. We even have ready-made data (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9567) for that topic, though data is three months old.

[voltron00x]

Outstanding article. Really well done.

At first I was irked that it was thin on strategic information, then it occured to me that "This is the way to write this article" -- finding your way into the format that doesn't seem painful or scary if you're not stocked with Legacy staples. I'm not sure if it's unique in the range of articles on the format, but it's definitely the best execution of the idea I've ever seen.

My only passing criticism: not enough sections headings. It just kind goes w/o any kind of mile-markers even though you have transitional sections. That's pretty minor stuff.

Even though the regular users on this site are not your intented audience, I appreciate a clear, well-written article that is difficult to do well.

If you want some article ideas -- Legacy could really use a well-written metagame breakdown. We even have ready-made data (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9567) for that topic, though data is three months old.

I believe Menendian is deep in his secret lab, brewing an article that really data-mines the Philly $5K.

It might be interesting to do a recap of the metas of this year's large Legacy events at the end of 2009... I'll keep it in mind.

I did notice what you said about the headers - some paragraphs on certain decks got a little lost. I didn't notice it so much when I was writing the article in Word, but I did notice it when it was posted on Monday. I'll watch out for that in the future.

All: Thanks for the positive feedback - although I've mostly played Vintage this year, I am a huge fan of Legacy, and am trying to get some tournaments going in the Philly area. We have tentatively planned one at the Alternate Universe - Blue Bell store on 11/7, for anyone that's local to the Philly burbs. If I can get finalized info, I'll post it in the Tournament Announcements forum.

[MMogg]

I'm glad you touched on the cost of Legacy, particularly to dispel the myth that it's somehow too expensive compared to Standard. Anyone who has played Standard knows how chase rares make (Legacy) mediocre cards $20+ only to lose their value in a few years, whereas staples in Legacy maintain their value or appreciate. Anyone considering playing Magic long term would find Legacy much "cheaper".

[Bardo]

I believe Menendian is deep in his secret lab, brewing an article that really data-mines the Philly $5K.


I meant the kind of metagame analyses Dr. Sylvan used to do (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/9163_As_Much_Info_As_You_Can_Handle_The_JanFeb_Vintage_Metagame_Report.html) back in the day. Those are the kinds of articles that made me realize Vintage was a "real" format.

To me, Legacy still has that "Is it casual? / Should you give a shit?" kind of vibe. It can move beyond that with pundits/analysts that quantitatively show "There is a metagame and this is how you can game the tier structure." Not saying you have the investment to care, just that there's a huge hole that should be filled.

[voltron00x]

I meant the kind of metagame analyses Dr. Sylvan used to do (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/9163_As_Much_Info_As_You_Can_Handle_The_JanFeb_Vintage_Metagame_Report.html) back in the day. Those are the kinds of articles that made me realize Vintage was a "real" format.

To me, Legacy still has that "Is it casual? / Should you give a shit?" kind of vibe. It can move beyond that with pundits/analysts that quantitatively show "There is a metagame and this is how you can game the tier structure." Not saying you have the investment to care, just that there's a huge hole that should be filled.

I'm actually kind of surprised you feel this way. I think Legacy, on the whole, receives pretty decent coverage on the major sites these days. Of the Constructed formats, obviously Standard will always receive the most coverage, and chances are Vintage will receive the least (as it has almost no large events in the US and no event support from WOTC); Extended is only covered 4-5 months a year (at most), when it's relevant for Pro level play or PTQs, and Block seems to have gotten the short end of the stick in the reduction in Pro Tour seasons. That leaves Legacy in a pretty good spot. Over the past 12 months, Legacy had a huge Grand Prix, and over 128 players at 3 SCG $5Ks and Legacy Champs, as well as inclusion as a format for the Worlds teams (which, sadly, was hardly covered at all). That's a LOT of large tournaments in the US for an Eternal format! All of them have had pretty decent coverage / discussion (except Worlds). There was also the large Legacy side event that C Phil won with 43 Land (I want to say at US Nationals?), and the Jupiter games Legacy events are getting pretty big. The tournament on 11/14 should have huge attendance.

On SCG alone, we've gotten Legacy articles and coverage from C Phil, Menendian, Doug Linn, Anwar, and me, plus Chapin dropped that Entomb Hulk deck a few weeks back and Feldman came out of retirement to drop a deck before the philly $5K (and he wrote about Ichorid 3 weeks in a row before / after the GP). I'm sure there are others that I can't think of, off the top of my head.

A year ago I would have agreed with you, and I still think there's a misconception about the broadness of Legacy (its a broad format, to be sure, but there aren't 30 viable decks, I don't care what anyone wants to believe) - this IS the type of thing that more detailed metagame analysis would prove. Regardless, the best thing that can happen for Legacy is for players to keep showing up for the large events so that TOs can continue to have a reason to support Legacy.

[MMogg]

. . . there aren't 30 viable decks, I don't care what anyone wants to believe) . . .

Legacy has more viable decks than Baskin Robins has flavors! Seriously, who would have expected Charbelcher to place 6th in Philly? Or Hexmage/Depths 8th? Stax in first!? :eek: I know it's only one major event, but it's a very very wide open format.

[voltron00x]

Legacy has more viable decks than Baskin Robins has flavors! Seriously, who would have expected Charbelcher to place 6th in Philly? Or Hexmage/Depths 8th? Stax in first!? :eek: I know it's only one major event, but it's a very very wide open format.


No doubt, it is, and one of the reasons why it stays so broad is because there's not much real metagame information. I mean I lost to Cephalid Life combo rd 1 at the Philly $5K... never expected to lose to Diamond Valley.

Having said that, there's still a class of 10ish decks that are better than the rest. Legacy stays so interesting though b/c metagame calls, like Belcher, are sometimes an excellent choice.

And hey I'd expect Belcher to do well in a Zoo dominated field - remember, I came in 3rd with it at Legacy Champs 08, and that was a larger tournament :wink:

[MMogg]

No doubt, it is, and one of the reasons why it stays so broad is because there's not much real metagame information.

So, you think that were there to be more metagame information people would gravitate towards particular deck types? Do you think that's healthy? Also, do you really think metagame information is so relevant, or is it not snapshots of a high speed train? For example, anyone "netdecking" from the Charlotte $5K (Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk in particular) would perhaps have been stomped in the Philly $5K.

I know what you mean about dominate deck types, especially the power of Thresh/Dredge/Storm in all their various incarnations, but I would contend that whereas there are a limited number of tier 1 decks (that do well against any kind of metagame), there are many many tier 2 decks that are certainly "viable". I think that's where people get the idea of 30 or so viable decks.

[voltron00x]

So, you think that were there to be more metagame information people would gravitate towards particular deck types? Do you think that's healthy? Also, do you really think metagame information is so relevant, or is it not snapshots of a high speed train? For example, anyone "netdecking" from the Charlotte $5K (Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk in particular) would perhaps have been stomped in the Philly $5K.

I know what you mean about dominate deck types, especially the power of Thresh/Dredge/Storm in all their various incarnations, but I would contend that whereas there are a limited number of tier 1 decks (that do well against any kind of metagame), there are many many tier 2 decks that are certainly "viable". I think that's where people get the idea of 30 or so viable decks.

Even 15 decks is absurdly broad, let alone 30. There's also the issue of deck differentiation. For instance, are LED and non-LED Ichorid one deck, or two? What about ANT with and w/out Doomsday? Goyf Sligh and Zoo? Eva Green and Sui Black? How many variants of CB/Top count as distinct, different decks? Is Team America still "viable" despite mostly disappearing this year? Is Kowal's deck from GP: Chicago distinct from Eva Green? Etc etc.

If there are 5-7 Tier one decks, and 10ish tier 1.5 / 2 decks, there are subdivisions within those archetypes that make Legacy so interesting... but there there's also junk like Solidarity, Train Wreck, and Aluren......

[dramatic pause while the two people that advocate Train Wreck flame me]

... that really are like Tier 4, but can still T8 small, local events.

I'm not saying a more developed metagame is necessarily good or bad, just that it tends to create a focus on fewer decktypes that are viable against the broad field.

[Arrowni]

To chime in: Legacy's card pool is huge, easily the biggest one in all the constructed formats (Vintage's power simply makes most cards and strategies useless and dated), thanks to that you can devise one or two pretty high level strategies that are different among themselves. Its not only a matter of choice, but also a way to be less expected or to avoid narrow hate.

[Happy Gilmore]

Even 15 decks is absurdly broad, let alone 30. There's also the issue of deck differentiation. For instance, are LED and non-LED Ichorid one deck, or two? What about ANT with and w/out Doomsday? Goyf Sligh and Zoo? Eva Green and Sui Black? How many variants of CB/Top count as distinct, different decks? Is Team America still "viable" despite mostly disappearing this year? Is Kowal's deck from GP: Chicago distinct from Eva Green? Etc etc.

If there are 5-7 Tier one decks, and 10ish tier 1.5 / 2 decks, there are subdivisions within those archetypes that make Legacy so interesting... but there there's also junk like Solidarity, Train Wreck, and Aluren......

[dramatic pause while the two people that advocate Train Wreck flame me]

... that really are like Tier 4, but can still T8 small, local events.

I'm not saying a more developed metagame is necessarily good or bad, just that it tends to create a focus on fewer decktypes that are viable against the broad field.

I think you have a very good grasp on the format, surprising considering that you have focused primarily on T1. I think you did a great job, and I wonder how your end of the year article will look.

[Bardo]

I'm actually kind of surprised you feel this way. I think Legacy, on the whole, receives pretty decent coverage on the major sites these days. A year ago I would have agreed with you, and I still think there's a misconception about the broadness of Legacy (its a broad format, to be sure, but there aren't 30 viable decks, I don't care what anyone wants to believe) - this IS the type of thing that more detailed metagame analysis would prove. Regardless, the best thing that can happen for Legacy is for players to keep showing up for the large events so that TOs can continue to have a reason to support Legacy.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I think I am stuck back in mid-2007 where my sentiment was coming from. You're right though, it's a pretty golden time to be into Legacy.